Debates of the Transkei Legislative Assembly. Fifth and Sixth Session. Third Assembly. 17 March 1976 to 19 May 1976. 26 July 1976 to 27 July 1976 0949949353
114 68
English Pages [416] Year 1976
Polecaj historie
Table of contents :
Front Cover
Transkeian Exchequer and Audit:
21
MATANZIMA, the Honourable Paramount Chief K D (Chief Minister and Minister
Extension of Franchise Registration Period
Salary of President
42
SIGCAU, the Honourable Miss S N (Minister of Interior)
Construction of Bridges:
Minimum Wage of R3 per day for Labourers
No Confidence:
0
Umtata - Kokstad
Discussion of Draft Constitution
Citation preview
C
518,966
Republic of South Africa
Government
Transkei
JQ
mau
ma
msa Yamanya
1999 T75 A35
Debates
1973/74 h 6th session 5t/ of the
Transkei
Legislative Assembly
The University of Michigan Library
Fifth
and
Sixth
Session
Third Assembly
OCT
17 March
26 July
1976 to
19
May
1976 to 27 July
$ 1978
1976
1976
Printed for the Transkei Legislative Assembly
by the Elata Commercial Printers (Pty.) Ltd. , Umtata
No. of Copies Printed: 600 Price per Copy
: R1.00
10
T
L
FIFTH AND SIXTH SESSION
ISBN 0 949949 35 3
INDEX A Abolition of Pass Laws etc.
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Address: Opening by the Honourable the Minister of Labour and Mines, .... Mr. S. P. Botha .... .... .... .... .... .... .... ....
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Opening by the Honourable Paramount Chief K.D. Matanzima , Chief Minister of the Transkei
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Additonal Appropriation Bill .... .... Adjournment of Parliament Administration of Oath ....
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6-8
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4, 45, 55 , 84 , 205 , 258 .... .... .... .... 64 .... .... 45 , 14 , 23 , 36 , 46 , 55 – 56 , 62 – 63 , 70 , 76 ,
Annexation of Mission Farms in Transkei .... Announcements
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91 – 92 , 133 , 140 , 156 , 163 , 178 , 184 , 187 , 192 , 199 , 204 , 258, 268, 291 , 322 , 327, 345 , 360.
Appointment of Committees
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Bills: Notices of:
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5-6, 106 , 133 , 187 , 196 , 275, 291
Bills: Transkeian Abuse of Dependence Producing Substances and Rehabilitation centres Amendment :
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Second Reading
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Transkeian Additional Appropriation, 1976 : First Reading .... .... .... ....
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Second Reading Committee Stage Third Stage ....
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Committee Stage Third Reading....
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Transkeian Bantu Administration Amendment :
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Second Reading
Committee Stage
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Transkeian Appropriation 1976: First Beading .... ....
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244 , 250, 254 , 275 .... .... .... 289
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Transkeian Corporations :
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Third Reading
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Committee Stage
Third Reading
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Transkeian Deeds Registry Amendment : First Reading .... ....
Second Reading
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Bills: Transkeian Education Amendment : First Reading . .... ....
Second Reading Committee Stage
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Third Reading
Transkeian Exchequer and Audit : .... First Reading ....
Second Reading Committee Stage
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Third Reading
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Transkeian Extension of Application of Transkeian Laws :
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Transkeian General Loans:
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292
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315
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196 .... 204-205
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Transkeian Road Traffic Amendment :
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Committee Stage
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Transkeian Unauthorized Expenditure ( 1974/75) : .... .... .... .... .... First Reading Second Reading .... ....
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290
140, 145
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Committee Stage Third Reading
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Transkeian Liquor Amendment : First Reading ...
Second Reading Committee Stage Third Reading
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Building of Teachers Training School : Libode....
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Bizana District Engcobo District
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Kenegha River
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Xalanga District
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Construction of Coastal Road: Nyanda region ....
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Umtata - Kokstad
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Creation of New Chieftainship : Dalindyebo Region .... .... .... : Nyanda ....
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360
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: Umzimkulu District ....
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:: Construction of Rail-Links :
Creation of Sub-Chieftainship : Umtata District
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Mhlanga River Umtata Mouth
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D Discussion of Draft Constitution
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Drivers Licences :
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.. Training School in St. Marks District
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Establishment of Land Bank ..
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Police Station to Combat Stock theft in Matatiele District
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Extension of Franchise Registration Period
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F Free introduction of Stock into Transkei .... Further retention of Services :
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W.B.C.D. Ntloko.
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G Government Pension Scheme : Married Female Employees : Grant of Trust Farms to Paramount Chiefs and Others : ....
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H Handing over of all Towns and Bantu Trust Properties to the Transkeian Government .... .... .... ....
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Industrial growth point : Mount Frere - Tabankulu Area : .... .... .... Installation of F.M. Tower : Umzimkulu District: .... al Circulars to all Tribal Authorities Issue of Department
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.. Subsidy for purchase of Stud Stock , ... .. Transkeian Civil Servants .... .... .....
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Introduction of Freehold system of Land Tenure : Fingoland Region :
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No Confidence : ....
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Notices of Bills:
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Motions:
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133 , 140 , 149 , 156 , 164 , 178 , 196 , 236 , 244 , 258, 291 , 360 0 Oath : Administration of Obituaries ....
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Members of Assembly
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of Office of President or Acting President and Notice
of Assumption of Office P Payment of Old age pensions to recipients of Republican Government pension .... .... .... .... .... .... Policy Speech : Chief Minister and Minister of Finance
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: Minister of Agriculture and Forestry .... : Minister of Education .... ....
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Questions : Replies to : Quorum in Assembly :
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46 , 122 - 123 , 143 , 178 , 258 .... .... .... 337
Ꭱ Rail-links: Umtata - Kokstad and Neighbouring Villages ....
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Reduction of Rental for Black Railways staff Removal of President from Office ....
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Report Back on Motions paased by the Legislative Assembly .... .... .... .... .... .... Resignation of President Revision of School Examination System .... .... ....
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Salary of President
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Suggested Amendment of Regulations pertaining to Police Ranks .... .... Suggested Amendment of Transkeian Authorities Act Suggested Measures for Prevention of Stock theft Shortcut to Maluti Township .... .... .... ....
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Suspension of Rules of Procedure
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Standardisation of Roads in Maluti Region
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Tabling of Reports or Papers
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Vacation of Seat by Member of Assembly
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INDEX OF MOTIONS DEALT WITH DURING THE 1976 SESSION
Motion No.
1
2345 6
Subject Matter
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Abuse of Dependence Producing Substances and Rehabilitation centres Amendment .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... Additional Appropriation
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Corporations
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205 , 241-242
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Deeds Registry Amendment .... Education Amendment ....
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Exchequer and Audit
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Extension of Application of Transkeian Laws General Loans .... ....
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Building of Teacher-Training School : Libode
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Creation of Sub-chieftainships : Umtata District .... Construction of Rail-links : Umtata - Kokstad
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Construction of Bridges : Xalanga District
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Construction of Bridges on Mhlanga River
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Construction of Bridges : Umtata Mouth Kenegha River
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132-133
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Construction of Bridges : Bizana District .... .... .. .. .. : Engcobo District .... .. .. Coastal Road: Nyanda Region ....
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Creation of New Chieftainship : Dalindyebo Region
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360
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Creation of New Chieftainship : Nyanda Region .... : Umzimkulu District
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290 , 292 , 323 , 327, 345
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Erection of Additional Technical Colleges
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99, 102
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Extension of Transkei Boundary to Umzimkulu River .... .... Extension of Training School in St. Marks District Establishment of Police- Station to Combat Stock theft .... .... in Matatiele District .... .... .... .... ....
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26 27 28
Creation of Sub-chieftainships : Umtata District .... .... Driver Licences: Development Assistants
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Discussion of Draft Constitution .... ....
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162 , 166 174
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155-156 199
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Further retention of services: W.B.C.D. Ntloko ....
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Free Introduction of Stock into Transkei
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171
Establishment of Land Bank
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Grant of Trust Farms to Paramount Chiefs and others
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Government Pension Scheme for Married Female .... .... .... .... .... .... .... Employees .....
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114, 118, 130 136
Handing over of all Towns and Bantu Trust Properties to the Transkeian Government .... .... .... Increase in salaries of headmen
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53, 55
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56, 62
.. subsidy for purchase of stud Stock
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Industrial growth point : Mt. Frere - Tabankulu Area .... Installation of F.M. Tower Umzimkulu District .... ....
147, 149 157
Issue of Departmental Circulars to all Tribal Authorities. .... ....
175 , 180, 185
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46 47
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.. Transkeian Civil servants
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Introduction of Free system of Land Tenure :
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Minimum wage of R3 per day for Labourers Minutes .... .... .... .... .... .... ....
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No Confidence
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8,15,23,30,37
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Payment of Old age Pension to recipients of Republican .... .... Government pension .... .... ....
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Provision of free books in all Transkeian Schools ....
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Provision of Housing for Police Staff
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Rail-links: Umtata/Kokstad and neighbouring Villages Reduction of Rental for Black Railways Staff .... .... Report back on Motions passed by the Legislative .... .... .... .... .... .... Assembly .... .... Revision of School Examination System Suggested Amendment of Regulations pertaining to Police Ranks .... .... .... .... .... .... ....
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Suggested Amendment of Transkeian Authorities Act .... .... ....
147 155
168, 170 82 159
201 , 207 93
194, 196 187 207
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Suggested Measures of Preventing Stock Theft .... .... .... Short-cut to Maluti Township
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Standardization of Roads in Maluti Region ....
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105-106
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Training of Agricultural Offices in Irrigation
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Transfer of Dipping Staff from Regional Authorities .... .... .... to Department of Agriculture
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INDEX TO MINISTERS SECOND READING AND COMMITTEE STAGE. (POLICY SPEECHES) .
MATANZIMA , the Honourable Paramount Chief K.D. (Chief Minister and Minister of Finance).
Bills:
Transkeian Appropriation
Second Reading
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Committee Stage ....
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Transkeian Additional Approproation ; 1976 : Second Reading .... .... ....
Committee Stage .... Transkeian Corporations :
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Transkeian Deeds Registry Amendment : Second Reading .... ....
Committee Stage .... Budget Speech .... Policy .... Supply Vote 1
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MATANZIMA, the Honourable G.M.M. (Minister of Justice) . Transkeian Abuse of Dependence Producing Substances and Rehabilitation Centres Amendment :
Second Reading .... Committee Stage ……..
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Transkeian Bantu Administration Amendment :
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SIGCAU, the Honourable Miss S.N. (Minister of Interior) . .... .... .... Policy Speech
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MABANDLA, the Honourable Mr. Z.M. (Minister of Agriculture and Forestry). .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... Policy Speech
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MOSHESH , the Honourable Chief J.D. (Minister of Health) . .... .... .... .... .... Policy Speech
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NDABANKULU, the Honourable Chief G.S. ( Minister of Roads and Works). .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... .... Policy Speech
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JONAS , the Honourable Mr. A.N. (Minister of Education) . .... .... .... .... Policy Speech
Supply Vote 3
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TRANSKEIAN LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY — 1976 PROCEEDINGS AT THE SESSION The fifth session of the third Transkeian Legislative ly ly mb ed l mb se en se 10.30 a.m. at Hal As the in op As WEDNESDAY, 17 MARCH 1976 s er remen ad . Notice convoking the Assembly ay ret Pr ern The Govwe
on
The d . irman announced the Honourable the Miwas reaCha nister of Labour and of Mines , Mr. S. P. BothaLE . OPENING ADDRESS BY THE HONOURAB THE MINISTER OF LABOUR AND OF MINES, MR S. P. BOTHA Mr. Chairman, Honourable Paramount Chiefs and Honourable Members, my task today is twofold : Firstly, on behalf of the state President to open this, the Fifth Session of the Third Transkeian Legislative Assembly in accordance with tradition, and, secondly, to embody, in the text of this address, a valediction , for this will be the last occasion on which a representative of the Republic of South Africa will , in this way, open the proceedings . The next time you gather together in this Assembly Hall will be as members of parliament of a sovereign , independent country, and your own Head of State will have the honour of of-
Development and on which the Governments of both the Transkei and the Republic are represented , is entrusted with all aspects concerning the independence of the Transkei . When one considers the multiplicity and complexity of the matters to be dealt with, then only can one gauge the immensity of the task the Committee is faced with . This Committee has periodically to report on progress and for approval of its actions to a Joint Cabinet Committee under the chairmanship of the Honourable the Prime Minister of the Republic of which the Honourable the Chief Minister of the Transkei , the Honourable the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development and the Honourable the Minister of Justice of the Transkei are members . The Transkeian Recess Committee on Independence has also met on a number of occasions under the chairmanship of the Honourable the Chief Miter . 1 December 1975 the area of the Transkei was nisOn increased by the inclusion of the districts of Herschel and Glen Grey. Representatives from these two districts will in due course take their seats in the Legi-
lys. budget for the coming financial year ei' emb tive Tra nsk slaThe Ass will, as has become usual , be a record one, but complicated by the fact that independence and the establishment of new departments will necessitate a second budget during the year. A Transkeian Exchequer and Audit Bill will be presented to the House this session inging g ny iatth nin emo ficNo at els the ope cer s . e I shall touch upon in this addres is of and certain amendments to the Transkeian Taxation nt t n t atesr mome . fac tha tha greThi Act will , time permitting, also be tabled to prepare session of your Assembly is therefore the climax the scene for independence . Training by the Office of of thirteen years of constitutional and administrative the Public Service Commission and departments themdevelopment. Later this year the period of preparation selves of Transkeian officers for control posts and the t en nm te er dua f r om l l u to -gov sel fr wil be ove , yo wil gra diplomatic and information services has proceeded ty nce ili sib nde me ur pon al for yo fin res and assu indepe No fewer than 13 officers of all departments became Assistant Secretaries or were appointed to apace. ble y . l be a memora occasion . But in today's desIttinwil equivalent grades during the year, whilst in the Chief dangerous world , it is also a daunting prospect . FairMinister's Department 11 Foreign Service Officers are weather friends of the new Transkei may abound but, undergoing intensive training at various South Afrias the recent tragic events in Angola show, true friends can Embassies . In addition , the nucleus of the head office staff of the future Department of Foreign Afes d e d in Th tim of nee are har com by. te e leading nations of the West to whom modera fairs is at present receiving formal training in PretoAfrica turned for support in its travail have looked ria. The Military Advisor to the Government of the the other way, whilst the new imperialists , the RusTranskei is doing sterling work in connection with the sians and their Cuban hatchet men, blasted and blugeure Transkeian Army. The leader group and first fut oned their way in. As this is the last occasion on which intake of recruits for 1 Battalion are at present contia representative of the Republic of South Africa will nuing training at Lenz near Johannesburg . The Guard be afforded the opportunity of delivering the opening of Honour outside the Legislative Assembly Building ent s sid te alf , to of the Sta Pre addres , I desire, on beh today testifies eloquently to the high standard of trainle ab an ur rm mMe and you, Hono give you, Mr. Chai ing being given the young soldiers . By April it is ued ly nce of the contin bers of this Assemb , the assura hoped the Transkei's own military base just outside nt p of the Refriendshi and support of the Governme Umtata will be operational and all members of 1 Batce en and it will public of South Africa after independ talion will then be stationed there . Your Government be that of a true friend on whom you can rely. has on several occasions placed on record its deep The world -wide inflation , the drop in the gold price, of this military co-operation . apprecsiation and escalating energy, defence and other costs have Thi year of independence has also placed a heavy red ial ing r y spi anc ke fin yea a ver the com con to ma burden on the Department of Roads and Works. Not am happy to say, Mr only must this Department cope with its normal funct ic ubl icul . t has wholeheartedly ther Rep diff t you , thafor Chairmanone Governmen tions but it now has the added responsibility for the pledged its support to the country-wide anti-inflatio crash building programme entailing the construction nary measures recently instituted by the Government of a new administrative complex to house the new dece ic uen tes of , the Estima of the Republ . As a conseq partments, the planning and construction of the new re d itu uce which will be introd Expend by the Honouministerial complex , the new airport and many other rable the Minister of Finance will bear the scars of undertakings which must be completed prior to indeunavoidable surgery performed by the Treasury. That this should be so in independence year, of all years , Owi ce . to an increase in the volume of work an addenng pen is unfortunate , but Honourable Members may rest asditional judge has been appointed to the High Court sured that, once the economy returns to a more norSo far as the administration of eined nsk mal configuration , projects temporarily shelved will of the . , it is also interesting to note that e isTra cer tic con jus t men of the The Govern at eight of the twenty-eight magistrates' offices the e mor sidered . oncnsk con ei ewilbe e to consider internal reiously hav l ser Tra complete staff comprises Transkeian citizens. At each such as intensified collection of taxes and of twelve of the remaining offices there is only one iesonlevels fluctuating from year to year in the taxati med This is a clear indication te seconded officer . Whi d p al urr ds ke ht goo the rec lig of fisc nee - to hel ma of the ability of the Xhosa to take over responsibility ing shortfall between revenue and expenditure. Good progress is being made with the large volume y sig lthept and heaexc is athe ionn . of those police stations in the With of work that has to be undertaken in preparation for two new districts that have been added to the Transt mos The the coming independence of the Transkei . kei, all police stations have already been transferred important aspect of this work has been the preparato your Government . Your Government has also taion nt tion of a constitut for the independe state of the ken over virtually all prisons in the Transkei . Transkei and I may mention that this constitution is An interesting development in the field of educato be presented in draft form to the Legislative Astion is the establishment of a branch of the Universembly later in the course of this session. sity of Fort Hare here in Umtata . This will form the As you are most probably aware, a committee, embryo of your own independent university. known as the Working Committee on the Granting of Education in the Transkei receives the highest priIndependence to the Transkei , was established last ority . At present there are between 500 000 children year. This Committee, which is under the chairmanship of the Secretary for Bantu Administration and ༥.
and 600 000 children attending close to 2000 schools and a teaching staff of nearly 10 000. The Transkei's own apprenticeship scheme has now been well and truly launched, and the indenturing of apprentices in the Government and private sectors will give a new impetus to technical and other development within the new State soon to be born. At the instance of the Honourable the Chief Minister, consideration is at present being given to the introduction of a pension scheme for members of this Assembly. As will be appreciated, new pension schemes require to be carefully investigated by qualified experts not only in view of the financial implications to the Government but also to ensure that such schemes fully serve the interests of the persons for whom they are designed, and this course will natu rally also be followed in the present instance. I am given to understand that to meet the added demand for water necessitated by the rapid growth of Umtata, a commencement will be made during the current financial year with the construction of a new dam on the Umtata river and, at a later stage, a hydroelectric scheme to be driven by water from this dam. With the taking over of the remaining mission hospitals, the Transkei will have 30 State hospitals at the time of independence. This compares more than fa-vourably with most African states. The Department of Health is a professional service organisation concerned exclusively with human welfare. It has consequently maintained strong ties with the Republican Department of Health. Disease knows no political boundaries and it is obvious that for the mutual welfare of both states such a liaison should continue after independence. A bilateral agreement has therefore been signed whereby the Governments of the Transkei and the Republic undertake to assist one another in the event of health emergencies such as the outbreak of infectious diseases. The Government of the Republic also undertakes to make available to the Transkei such services as are not available in the Transkei, e.g. sophisticated laboratory analysis, monitoring of environmental pollution, etc. This latter factor is considered to have great significance for the future in view of the expected industrial expansion of the Transkei . This must not be permitted to jeopardise the environment for generations yet to come. The benefits of this liaison were exemplified in dramatic circumstances on the occasion of the fire in the Flagstaff District in 1975. Within 10 hours of a request being made to the Republic a helicopter flight made it possible to deliver 50 army tents to the stricken area, thereby providing temporary protection and accommodation for the homeless. I need not stress the desirability of the continuance of such friendly relations . During this current session of the Parliament of the Republic of South Africa an Act will be passed whereby the Transkei Constitution Act will be amended to INTER ALIA provide that this Assembly will comprise of 75 elected members and 75 chiefs (including paramount chiefs) . The next time you gather here there will thus be 150 members present in this Assembly Hall
THURSDAY, 18 MARCH 1976 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. The roll was called. MEMBERS OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY IN ATTENDANCE :BIZANA: Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Calara Nomagqwatekana Chief Daliwonga Mlindazwe Mr Maci Enoch Dyarvane Mr Mkatali Walter Madikizela BUTTERWORTH: Chief Zandisile Havington Zulu Mr Silas Walker Mbanga ELLIOTDALE : Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Mr Popo Pakamile ENGCOBO : Chief Sithembele Mgudlwa Chief Mzikayise Dalasile Acting Chief Mdanjelwa Mtirara Mr Lamwell Lamyeni Mgudlwa Mr Dingile Boma Mxutu Mr Siphiwo Alfred Xobololo FLAGSTAFF : Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Gwebizilwane Lowell Sigcau Chief Mali David Nonkonyana Chief George Sibidla Ndabankulu IDUTYWA: Chief Mveyishi Bonkolo Chief Qombolo Watford Sigidi Mr Theseus Sizwe Sigcau Mr Walton Langalibalele Sipuka KENTANI : Chief Gwadana Merriman Dondashe Mr Diliza Hubert Mlonyeni LIBODE: Paramount Chief Nyangilizwe Tutor Ndamase Acting Chief Sidamela Robert Dlitamba Mr Elijah Vikinduku Ndamase LUSIKISIKI: Paramount Chief Manzolwandle Botha Sigcau Chief Mpondombini Justice Sigcau Chief Stanford Ludziya Sigcau Mr Kolisile Saul Ndzumo Miss Nomzamo Stella Sigcau MATATIELE: Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Matanzima Magadla Acting Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Dumezweni Louis Lupindo Mr Mafika Pascoe Ludidi Mr Dalindyebo John Ndleleni
MOUNT AYLIFF : Chief Senyukele Churchill Jojo Mr Kolisile Gordon Nota MOUNT FLETCHER: Acting Chieftainess Moroesi Constance Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Matheusen Sizwe Zibi Mr Nkwenkwezi Harold Humphrey Zibi Mr Kolisile Timothy Mbobo MOUNT FRERE : Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Mr Colley Dabula Mr Mdunyelwa Nicholas Makaula MQANDULI : Acting Chief Sicitana Candulwandle Dalasile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Acting Chief David Mrazuli Mr Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane Mr Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana NGQELENI : Chief Sandi Ferguson Gwadiso Chief Derrick Zamdola Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr Ramsay Madikizela
I wish to conclude by conveying to the Government and the people of the Transkei, on behalf of the State President, the Republic of South Africa's congratulations on the courage and the patience you have displayed on the road to independence. I say "patience" because this is a virtue so few nations these days display in their dealings with others you have waited thirteen years for your rewards and those rewards will be the sweeter for that waiting. And I say "courage" because, in the mad world in which we live, it takes courage for a Black country to choose the path of patience and moderation when all round you the clamour is for instant and bloody change. Since certain matters of great moment will be discussed during this Session of your Legislative Assembly, the session may be regarded as one of the most important to be held to date and I pray that our Almighty Father will guide you in your deliberations. It is now an honour for me hereby to declare this Fifth Session of the Third Transkeian Legislative Assembly duly opened . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 18 March 1976 . 2.
NQAMAKWE: Chief Mtutuzeli Hardington Ngcongolo Mr Mbele Eleven Dekeda PORT ST JOHN'S: Mr Bokololo Phillip Vapi QUMBU: Chief Mzingisi Welsh Matiwane Chief Isaac Matiwane Chiet Manzodidi Charles Ludidi Chieftainess Angelinah Moshesh Chief Mbovane Sandy Majeke Mr Gotgot Nathan Jafta ST MARK'S: Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Acting Chief George Bangilizwe Siyabalala Acting Chief Mbuzo Ngangomhlaba Matanzima Chief George Mzimvubu Matanzima Mr Arthur Mfebe TABANKULU: Chief Zwelabantu Diko Chief Ntsikayezwe Twentymen Sigcau Mr Cromwell Diko Mr Dorrington Ndamase TSOLO: Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Chief Mafu Godfrey Mabandla Mr Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Rev Tamsanqa Gladwin Vika TSOMO: Chief Wiseman Gontsana Nkwenkwezi Mr Ntsikelelo Armstrong Jonas UMTATA: Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Albert Bambilanga Dalindyebo Mr Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr Temba Mhlabunzima Makaula UMZIMKULU: Chief Solomon Tobigunya Msingaphantsi Chief Petros Jozana Chief Zwelinzima Setuse Chief Msudukeni Dlamini Mr Lenford Sipiwo Baleni Mr Hamilton Pamla WILLOWVALE : Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chief Khalakhulu Tabatile Sigcau Mr Jongilizwe Moses Dumalisile Mr Gebane Norman Sipunzi XALANGA: Acting Chief Bonani Nqanqeni Gecelo Acting Chief Xego Sami Moni Mr Mxosana Jackson Sigwela PARAMOUNT CHIEFS REPRESENTATIVES: Mr E. A. Pinyane: Eastern Pondoland Mr B. R. Jico: Western Pondoland Mr N. Xelo: Gcaleka Mr B. Mgudlwa: Western Tembuland Mr A. D. Joyi : Dalindyebo. The following members were absent during roll call:Chief Calara Nomagqwatekana Mr Siphiwo Alfred Xobololo Mr Kolisile Gordon Nota Mr Kolisile Timothy Mbobo Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Isaac Matiwane Mr E. A. Pinyane Mr Mkatali Walter Madikizela Chief Mali David Nonkonyana Acting Chief Marshall Lehana Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Acting Chief David Mrazuli Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa. OBITUARIES CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon members once again it is my sad duty this morning to announce that during the recess four members of this Legislative Assembly passed away. In my obituary remarks I shall take these hon members one by one. They were:(1) Sub-chief Devilliers Tsotso Mapassa of the Ntsonyana tribe resident in the district of Kentani. He died at his home on 2 October 1975 from natural causes. This young chief was appointed sub-chief with effect from 15 August 1969 and became an EX OFFICIO member of the Legislative Assembly on 24 October 1973. Young, robust and energetic on the assump-
tion of his duties as chief of his tribe, we all hoped that some day he would make his contribution to this House and participate in the debates as well as foster the progress and development of his people. (2) Chief Wabana Strachan Makaula of the Makaula section of the Baca tribe in the district of Mount Frere. He was appointed as chief of his tribe in 1941 and became an EX OFFICIO member of the House in 1963, and for close on 13 years he represented his people in this Chamber. I knew Chief Strachan Makaula as a student whilst he was at Healdtown Institution and I attended university classes at Fort Hare. He was a great sportsman and especially a cricketer, Chief Makaula was, on his installation as chief of the Baca tribe, a participant in the General Council of the Transkei as representative of his district of Mount Frere. He contributed with others to the estiblishment of the then Transkeian Territorial Authority. Though not a speaker himself, nevertheless he radiated a certain measure of dignity. His health was in imminence of degenerating but he bore his suffering with fortitude until his death on 11 November 1975. He was a highly respected personality amongst his subjects. (3) Acting Chieftainess Mildred Siyoyo of the Cwera tribe in the Tabankulu district of Eastern Pondoland. This hon member was appointed in an acting capacity as recently as 16 March 1972, later becoming an EX OFFICIO member as from 12 February 1973. We had hoped that her term of office would be long enough so that she could give her minor son, the heir to the chieftainship, that attention and upbringing which only a mother can give, but it was not to be. She bore herself in this Assembly with grace and dignity. Her death occurred on 3 December 1975. (4) Lastly, Acting Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile of the Qiya tribe of the Tembus in the Mqanduli district. He passed away on 17 January 1976. He was appointed acting chief from 1 September 1944 and joined this House as an EX OFFICIO member for Mqanduli in 1963. A cheerful old gentleman, he conquered the respect of the members of this House both opposite and on the Government benches. He was a highly respected figure in the circles of the Tembu nation (it is not a tribe). I have no doubt that the people of Mqanduli have lost a great man in Chief Jongulwandle. As you can see, he was appointed acting chief before the birth of many of the hon members of this House so you can realize what a contribution he must have made in shaping the destiny of the Tembu people. I am sure we shall all miss him. Mr Chairman, in expressing the feeling of the House I wish to say that all of us here mourn the loss of the deceased members and are sincere about our sympathies which we would like conveyed to the relatives and families of these late members, and also to their tribal authorities and the paramount chiefs and regional authorities of the bereaved. We are all creatures of Almighty God and none of us knows when he will be called into eternal life, for man proposes but God disposes. Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon memmbers .... MR C. DIKO : Sit down. Your days are finished. MR GUZANA: Mr Chairman, for those who see other people's days as having been finished, let them know that the death knell tolls over their heads. I rise to associate myself with the expression of sympathy and of condolence with the relatives and members of the families of these people. MR DIKO: You are associating as what? CHAIRMAN: Order, hon member for Tabankulu. MR GUZANA: I know there are those who will make a noise even over the graves, and this cannot be helped. Firstly, in regard to Sub-chief Mapasa of Kentani district I must confess that I did not know him personally but when a flower is plucked early before it blooms, then we are sorry to lose its best lustre which was the promise of the future. We do wish his family comfort in the knowledge that he has been saved corruption in a world that is going wrong. Of Chief Strachan Wabana Makaula I would say that he was a man who acquired dignity in silence. He had clear convictions unsullied by changes in the wind. He and Chief Nomtsheketshe became a couple that
3.
stood apart, distinct and loyal. It is indeed true that this man knew what he was about and went about it silently. When we express our condolences to his family we must also include Chief Nomtsheketshe, who has lost a helpmate. Acting Chieftainess Mildred Siyoyo came into this House and became the flower in the prickly-pear tree of the Government party. She indeed turned the heads of many of the Government members. She had no qualms about her position as representative of her people and one feels that this House has lost a lady who would probably have been the yeast to produce good bread. We indeed regret the death of Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile. Apart from my association with him politically, I knew him as an administrator in the district of Mqanduli and in his capacity as head of the Qiya Tribal Authority he discharged his duties with dedication and, let it be said, with considerable correctness. I would say that he was a repository of native law and custom a law which he administered diligently and impartially amongst his people. I met him on a number of occasions and I came to know him as a man of pleasant and easy personality. He was kind from the bottom of his heart and this is probably explained by the fact that he was a dedicated Christian. Not only was he a preacher in the Methodist Church, but he belonged to the Young Men's Guild of that Church, and I think it was his Christian conviction and honesty which was responsible for the respect that he commanded from all persons and all our chiefs should take note of this example. I second the hon the Chief Minister's motion that letters of condolence be addressed to the relatives of the deceased. As the poet said : "The old order changeth, yielding place to new"; but running through time and the centuries is the golden thread of Christan faith which gives taste to all things done by man. May their souls rest in peace. The motion was carried, the members standing in silence as a mark of respect to the deceased. ADMINISTRATION OF OATH CHAIRMAN: Hon paramount chiefs and hon members, I wish to advise the House that during recess the following vacancies occurred in the representation of this House:(a) In the Engcobo district owing to the death of Mr G. G. Kutu on 4 January 1975 who has been replaced by Mr Dingile Boma Mxutu; (b) In the Idutywa district due to the forfeiture of membership of the Legislative Assembly and of chieftainship by ex-Chief M. H. Sigidi with effect from 7 December 1973, who has been replaced by Acting Chief Qombolo Watford Sigidi; (c) In the Ngqeleni district owing to the death of Chief K. Ndamase on 14 October 1974 who has been replaced by Chief Derrick Zamdola Ndamase; (d) In the St Mark's district due to the disqualification of Mr T. E. ka-Tshunungwa who has been replaced by Mr Arthur Mfebe; (e) In the Umzimkulu district owing to the death of Chief B. Setuse on 28 July 1973 who has been replaced by Mr Zwelinzima Setuse; (f) Mr A Mfebe who used to be a representative of the Paramount Chief of Western Tembuland is now member of the Assembly and his place as Paramount Chief's representative has been taken by Mr Buller Mgudlwa; (g) Paramount Chief Xolilizwe Sigcau has terminated the services of Mr G. Mapassa as his representative and has appointed Mr Ndabeni Xelo instead. (h) In the Mount Fletcher district owing to the death of Chief Solomon Lebenya on 6 February 1975 who has been replaced by Acting Chieftainess Moroesi Constance Lebenya. Will each of these new members now come forward escorted by two members of the House to take the Sath to uphold the Constitution of the Transkei The new members took the oath before the Chairman of the House. ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon memmbers, the absence of the members representing the Glen Grey and Herschel districts should not surprise the hon members, as these districts were excised from the Ciskei on 17 December 1975. Three chiefs from the Glen Grey district and three from Herschel should
have joined us yesterday but because the Department of Bantu Administration delayed in publishing the Proclamation declaring these chiefs to be members of this House they have not yet taken their seats . It is hoped that they will be with us in the near future and in all probability next week. Three other chiefs from Herschel opted to remove with their families, lock stock and barrel to the Ciskei, forfeited their chieftainships in Herschel, did not register as voters in the Transkei and consequently forfeited their membership of this Assembly. They will be succeeded in terms of native law and custom and the successors will also join us in the near future. As regards elected members, elections in these districts will take place on 21 April 1976 and it is hoped that the successful candidates will take their seats in this Chamber in time for the discussion of the draft constitution of an independant Transkei on or about 3 May 1976. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN : Hon paramount chiefs and hon members, I wish to advise that replies to questions will be given on Tuesdays. Notices of questions should, in terms of Rule 84 of the Standing Rules of Procedure, be submitted to the Secretary of the Assembly not later than five clear days before the day on which a reply is required . APPOINTMENT OF COMMITTEES CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon members, I move that this House appoint the following committees:(a) Committee on Standing Rules and Internal Arrangements: Minister of Justice (Chairman), Minister of Health, Messrs B. P. Vapi, K. M. N. Guzana and H. H. Zibi. (b) Committee on Public Accounts: Messrs S. W. Mbanga (Chairman) , D. J. Ndleleni, R. Madikizela, Rev G. T. Vika and Chief D. D. P. Ndamase. (c) Business Committee: Chief Minister (Chairman), Minister of Agriculture and Forestry, Minister of the Interior, the Chairman of the Assembly, Messrs H. D. Mlonyeni and K. M. N. Guzana. M/HEALTH : I second the motion. Agreed to. NOTICES OF MOTION 1. Mr E. L. Dekeda gave notice to move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government be requested to pay all Transkeian citizens receiving pension payments from the Republican Government old-age pension in addition to the pension they receive from the Republican Government." 2. Mr N. Jafta gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government be requested to supply free books to all our schools from Sub-std A up to Std 10." The Assembly adjourned until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 19 March 1976. FRIDAY, 19 MARCH 1975 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon members, because of old age and the fact that I am the key figure in the preparations for the coming independence of the Transkei I have to request the House not to expect me to be present here at all times . Apart from the recess committee there are several other committees which need my attention and now and again I am requested to have interviews with these people, some of whom come from Head Office in Pretoria. The hon the Minister of Justice who is the Deputy Chief Minister will always fill the gap in my absence. Mr Chairman, a request came to you in connection with the recognition of an absent leader of the socalled Democratic Party and that Mr L. L. Mgudlwa should be allowed to deputize as Opposition leader, I want it made known, Sir, that the Government does not recognize the so-called leader as leader of any party in the Transkei . I refer to Mr Ncokazi. Reading through the articles of this gentleman in the Press noone is in doubt as to his attitude towards the Transkeian Government. He does not recognise this House, he does not recognize the Transkeian Government, therefore how can he seek recognition from the Transkeian Government? And whoever is associated with 4.
revert back to Rule 63(b) and sit until 4 o'clock on Fridays . It must be remembered that when we come to Umtata for a session of the Assembly we are not coming for a holiday. We have come to work and ore dispose of the business of this House. I theref move that we revert to the old procedure. M/ROADS : I second . Agreed. TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS ACTG CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman , on behalf of the hon the Minister of Finance I lay upon the table a Report of the Controller and Auditor General on the Appropriation Accounts and Miscellaneous Accounts of the Transkeian Government and on the Accounts of the Lower Authorities in the Transkei for the financial year 1974/75 . In terms of Rule 147 (b) it stands referred to the sessional committee on public
this gentleman will not be recognized in this House as being a member of any Opposition party. (Laughter) This Government recognizes Mr Guzana as lean parsty. ofAI the derCH ANosi RMOpp the hon Mr Guzana wishes appear : Ittio d . GUZANA : Mr Chairman and hon say aK.wor to MR M. members, everything is as it should be, and because Mr Nookazi has highjacked the name of the Democratic Party (Laughter) and some people have thought that it ought to be so, those who are fully democratic have dissociated themselves from him and from those whom he leads . What he stands for and what that party stands for will be a matter for comment at a later stage and I want to announce now that those who have moved away from that Leftist movement have formed themselves into a party and they call themselves for the time being the "New Democratic the NDP , that is. The names we have sought Party" -de known publicly are these , and they sit to to be ma my left next to my heart: Mr M. J. Dumalisile , Mr H. H. Zibi. Mr N. Jafta. Mr. N. G. Sinunzi , Chief K. Sifully representative of andla u, Chi gca ns G. M. tioef K. M. N. Guzana . And because and Mab all sec great minds think alike, the recognition accorded to us in this House through the hon the Chief Minister has been endorsed fully by those seven true men and I have gratefully accepted their nomination as leader of the party. I need say no more at the present mo-
accounts . NOTICE OF MOTION 4. Mr Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane gave notice to e :-t in the opinion of this Assembly Dipping mov "Tha Foreman should be transferred from the Regional Authorities to the Department of Agriculture and Fo5.ry Mr rest ." Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane gave notice to
e :-t in the opinion of this Assembly salaries of mov "Tha Headmen should be raised to R60 per month ." MR C. DIKO: You are stealing the motion which
ment. NOTICE OF BILL M/FINANCE : Mr Chairman and hon members , I beg to give notice that on Tuesday, 23 March 1976 I propose to move the first reading of a bill to apply a further sum of money towards the service of the Transkei for the financial year ending 31 March 1976. TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS M/FINANCE : Mr Chairman , as Minister of Finance I lay upon the table the Estimates of Additional Expenditure to be defrayed from the Transkeian Revenue Fund during the year ending 31 March 1976. NOTICE OF MOTION 3. Mr K. M. N. Guzana gave notice to move:"That this House has no confidence in the Governt ." TICE : Mr Chairman , may I crave your inmen M/JUS dulgence to say something before we adjourn . I notice that owing to a certain impasse which befell this House since the opening , the traditional seat usually occupied by the Leader of the Opposition has remained vacant and because , if my reckoning is correct (and I think it is), the New Democratic Party has seven members , whilst the old and rotting Democratic Party (Laughter) has only five, therefore as in this House the New Democratic Party has got the majority of the Opposition members I move that the leader of the New Democratic Party occupies the vacant seat together with his followers , because if he is there he will be too far away for my liking for me to be able to hit back when he moves his vote of no confidence, and I may miss him at that distance . (Laughter) Thank you, anULT . Chairm MrM/AG URE : RIC
led last . yea I tab TICE M/JUS : rOn a point of order , Mr Chairman , I hope you will control some of the hon members of this House . It is not proper for any member to interject when an hon member is tabling a notice of motion. Hon members will have ample chance when the member concerned moves and canvasses his motion . 6. Mr Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane gave notice to e: t in the opinion of this Assembly all labourers mov "Tha ldAI shou beRM paid day." AN : R3 ard to the next item , the hon In areg CH Minister of Finance indicated that the first reading of the Additional Appropriation Bill would be on Tuesday, 23 March , so this item was inadvertently included in the order paper for today. We shall continue with motions , and I call on the hon. member Mr
eda ST . ICE : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, I Dek M/JU do not know what is really happening because the usual procedure in this House is the motion of no confidence, and I think there is good reason for that . We cannot go on with the business of the House and discuss motions before we know whether the House has confidence in us. In the circumstances , Mr Chairman, I move the waiver of the rules so that the motion of no confidence takes precedence over all these other motions . CULTURE : I second . M/AGRI Agr MReed K. to. M. N. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon bers mem H.. D. MLONYENI : Is Mr Ncokazi behind MR
I second the
proposal ,
Mr
Chairman . AIRM Agr to.AN : I take it that next time this House CHeed sits the matter will have been rectified and the leader of the true Opposition will be in his rightful place. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m, on Monday,
22 March 1976 . MONDAY , 22 MARCH 1976 ers ute Pray wer read. se of The min the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . ANNOUCEMENTS M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman and hon members , in the absence of the hon the Chief Minister I have to make the following announcement :- Hon members will remember that during the 1975 session of this Assembly this Assembly resolved that on Fridays the House should sit from 10 o'clock to l'oclock in order to enable the members to get petrol in the afternoon . It is now submitted that in view of the fact that petrol is obtainable on Saturdays this House should revert
MR GUZANA : He can be behind , in front, to the you? me. Mr Chairman , I submit left the ofconfidence is not on your order ionrigh that or thetomot oft no paper today . In effect, therefore , the engine has not started being warmed up and I regretfully wish to say I am not yet ready. Furthermore , may it be remembered that the hon the Chief Minister usually indicates when that motion is going to be moved . In the circumstances of his absence I shall consult with the Acting Chief Minister as to the day when that motion will be moved . When the hon the Acting Chief Minister moved that the motion be discussed today he had broken precedent by not consulting with me, and I think dialogue and consultation should be entered into. MR C. DIKO : You can consult with Mr Ncokazi . MR GUZANA : Anybody who wants to consult with Mr Ncokazi should move to the gallery . (Laughter) CHAIRMAN : It appears that the hon the Leader of the Opposition is not yet ready to deal with the motion of no confidence . The fact that it is not on the order paper is irrelevant . What should be considered by the House is the point that the hon the Leader of
back to the terms of Rule 63(b). MBERS ME That was a favour , it was not a right, M/JUSTICE: : No. Mr Diko. It is therefore sought that this House should 5.
ment should consider the Advisability of raising the salaries of all Transkeian Civil servants, chiefs and headmen and labourers to those of their counterparts in the Republic of South Africa."
the Opposition seems to be unable yet to deal with the motion. M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, in view of the fact that this baby was born on Friday and is not yet able to speak (Laughter) I move that this motion be discussed tomorrow M/AGRICULTURE: I second . Agreed to. CHAIRMAN: I now call on Mr Dekeda. M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, I am finding myself in a difficulty today. As I have said, the usual practice and procedure is that the business of the House is tackled after the vote of no confidence has been disposed of. I am in a difficulty because I had not anticipated this position and I will plead with you to adjourn a little until I consult with the officials who are responsible for the running of the Assembly. CHAIRMAN : Will the hon Minister indicate the time required for the adjournment? M/JUSTICE: Until 12 o'clock. I move accordingly. M/AGRICULTURE: I second . Agreed to. The Assembly adjourned. AFTER ADJOURNMENT M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, as a result of our consultation with the hon the Leader of the Opposition I move that the House adjourns until tomorrow when the leader will move the motion of no confidence. M/EDUCATION: I second. Agreed to. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 23 March 1976 TUESDAY, 23 MARCH 1976 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. CHAIRMAN: Hon members, there are three people who have been placed in this House for the sake of interpretation. It would appear that that interpretation is being relegated to oblivion. Only one individual is responsible for the interpretation at present, for reasons best known to themselves. I request them to comply, please, with their duties. NOTICES OF BILLS M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I beg to give notice that on Monday, 29 March 1976 I propose to move the first reading of a bill to provide for the amendment of the Bantu Administration Act No 38 of 1927 so as to enable a chief's court to try an offence involving property belonging to the Transkeian Government and to alter the penal jurisdiction of this court to provide for a monetary fine only. NOTICES OF MOTION 7. The Hon the Chief Minister gave notice to move:1). That whereas the Dalindyebo Regional Authority has, in terms of sub-section (1 ) of section 45 of the Transkei Constitution Act No. 48 of 1963 resolved that new sub-chieftainships be created in respect of the Tembu tribes resident in the areas of the Cacadu and Xongora Tribal Authorities in the Umtata district and that Headmen Gangatile Dumalisile and Fulinzima Dabulamanzi Mtirara, respectively, be designated as sub-chiefs thereof; 2). And whereas this resolution entails the creation of new sub-chieftainships in the Transkei; 3). Now, therefore, in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should in terms of sub-section (2) of section 45 of Act No. 48 of 1963 consider the advisability of recommending that the State President should confirm : (a) the creation of new sub-chieftainships in the Umtata district in respect of the Tembu tribes resident within the areas of the Cacadu and Xongora Tribal Authorities in the Umtata district; and (b) the designation of: (i) Gangatile Dumalisile as sub-chief of the Tembu tribe resident within the area of jurisdiction of the Cacadu Tribal Authority; and (ii) Fulinzima Dabulamanzi Mtirara as subchief of the Tembu tribe resident within the area of jurisdiction of the Xongora Tribal Authority, with effect from the date of assumption of duty as sub-chiefs."
9. Mr. E. V. Ndamase gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should take over all the mission farms in the Transkei such as Clydesdale, Etembeni etc. , in Umzimkulu so as to alleviate the financial suffering all the people domiciled on such farms." 10. Mr. K.G. Nota gave notice to move : "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to hand over immediately to the Transkei Government all towns and S.A.B.T. properties in the Transkei." 11. Mr. Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane gave notice to move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the time to register for the forthcoming general elections should be extended for two months because the majority of people who are ignorant of the voting system have not been accorded ample time to register. Glen Grey, Cofimvaba and Herschel are still continuing to register." TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon members, in accordance with the provisions of section 26(3) of Proclamation No R334 of 1963 I lay upon the table amendments to the Transkeian Government Service Regulations published under Government Notice No 14 dated 6 February 1976. SUSPENSION OF RULES OF PROCEDURE
M/FINANCE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I wish to advise the House that it has become necessary as a matter of urgency to introduce during this session an Additional Appropriation Bill to provide for expenditure from the Transkeian Revenue Fund over and above that appropriated in the Transkeian Appropriation Act 1975 (Act No 2 of 1975) and the Second Additional Appropriation Act 1975 (Act No 11 of 1975) . The measure is purely financial and not controversial and it is the Government's wish, therefore, that all stages of the passage of the bill be disposed of today. To this end, Mr Chairman, I move that in terms of the proviso to Standing Rule 165(1 ) you adjudge the suspension of certain standing rules regarding financial measures to be a case of necessity and that the Assembly therefore consent to the suspension of the rules relating to the intervals between the various readings, time allotted to the second reading debate and the policy speeches of the Ministers when the Assembly is in committee of supply. M/JUSTICE: Seconded , Mr Chairman. Agreed to. ADDITIONAL APPROPRIATION BILL : FIRST READING M/FINANCE: Mr Chairman, having secured the suspension of the relevant standing rules I now lay upon the table my recommendation of the Additional Appropriation Bill 1976 in the form of a written message as required in terms of Standing Rule 128(b), together with the Estimates of Additional Expenditure and a certified copy of the Transkeian Additional Appropriation Bill 1976 and I now move that the bill be read a first time. M/AGRICULTURE: I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. The bill was read a first time. CHAIRMAN : I now call upon the hon Minister to proceed with the second reading of the bill. ADDITIONAL APPROPRIATION BILL 1976: SECOND READING Mr Chairman, Honourable Paramount Chiefs and Honourable Members, the rather unusual measure, namely, to have to arrange a second additional appropriation in respect of one particular financial year, is necessitated mainly by the incorporation into the Transkei of the two former Ciskeian districts of Glen
8. Mr. C. Diko gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Govern-
6.
Grey and Herschel with effect from 1 December 1975 and the transfer of the administration of the areas from the Ciskeian Government to this Government. The take-over of the administration has not been without pains - largely as a result of faulty lines of communication with the Ciskeian Government. Departments generally have, therefore experienced certain difficulties in normalising and maintaining services in the districts. I am pleased to report that most of the problems have been solved and the administration under this Government can only improve. Indeed the people of Glen Grey and Herschel may rest assured that the standard of provision of services will be improved Here I may mention specifically wherever possible. that the social benefits paid in the area at the beginning of this month, i.e. for the January/February 1976 pay period were based on the uniform tariff of R30 per pay period which is a much more advantageous basis than that applicable in the Ciskei. In the case of Vote 5 provision is also made to meet the estimated additional expenditure of R250 000 caus ed by flood damage to the Tsojana dam in the district of Cofimvaba. This damage is however covered by insurance and the amount will be recovered from the Insurance company concerned. Members will note that only three departments require additional appropriations. This is because the other departments will be able to finance their expenditures in respect of the Glen Grey and Herschel aspect from savings under their respective Votes. These savings, I am happy to remark, were effected partly in response to my appeal for the curbing of Government spending in an effort to curb inflation. I must explain, however, that the funds allocated to the Ciskeian Government by the Republican Government for the administration of Glen Grey and Herschel during the period 1 December 1975 to 31 March 1976, have been re-allocated to the Transkeian Revenue Fund. Mr Chairman, Hon. Members, as is shown in the Estimates of Additional Expenditure for 1975/76 tabled in the House on Friday last, the following additional amounts have to be appropriated, namely, under:Vote 3 - Education : R213 00 Vote 4 - Interior : R200 000 : R343 000. Vote 5 Agriculture & Forestry i.e. a Total of R756 000 which will increase the total estimated expenditure for 1975/76 to R102 768 000. Ministers could supply further details regarding the amounts reflected under their Votes should Members so require. I thank you, Mr Chairman and honourable members, and now move that the Transkeian Additional Appropriation Bill 1976 be read a second time M/JUSTICE: I second. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, in view of the fact that our tricycle of interpretation has been reduced to one wheel, I shall be very brief. This side of the House does not resist this additional expenditure involved in this estimate before us. True enough, the addition of Glen Grey and Herschel districts to the Transkeian Government has necessitated additional expenditure. Whilst the hon the Minister of Finance has indicated that the amount originally allocated to the Ciskeian Government for running these two districts has been transferred to the Transkeian Revenue Fund, one would have liked to know how much this amount is which has been transferred. Furthermore, if plant and machinery had been bought by the Ciskeian Government for use in these districts, one would think that such equipment would be handed over to the Transkeian Government as it would be superfluous in the keeping of the Ciskeian Government in view of the fact that its area of operation has been reduced by the excision of two districts I support the move to reconstruct and repair damage to the Tsojana Dam caused by floods and it is hoped that in view of the statement to the effect that the damage is covered by insurance the amount recovered from the insurance companies will also cover the amount of R250 000 which is now estimated for use in this direction. It is gratifying to note that the deparments other than the Departments of Education, Interior and Agriculture and Forestry have been able to exercise economies and therefore meet their
additional expenditure arising from the two districts. I would like to point out, however, that if there is going to be repair work done on the Tsojana Dam as a result of the flood damage, this Government might look into the tragic situation which has developed in Norwood where houses have been flooded along 6th Avenue and furniture has been destroyed. M/JUSTICE: Except musical instruments. (Laughter) MR GUZANA: Also, in the municipal location people are having an extreme shortage of accommodation as a result of huts collapsing . Further than that we have nothing to say. M/FINANCE: Mr Chairman and hon members, bewould just like to fore moving the committee stage reply to the hon the Leader of the Opposition. The amount which was transferred into the Transkeian Treasury from the Ciskei as a result of the excision of the two districts of Glen Grey and Herschel for the financial year 1975/1976 is R2 203 000. We are very particular about any losses which may be suffered by your Government. Now, for the year 1976/1977 the Ciskeian Government had estimated R7 million for these two districts and this amount will be transferred into the Treasury. We shall look into the whole situation and find out whether this amount is the proper amount which should have been transferred to the Transkeian Government. Mr Chairman, I just want to put the minds of the House in order with regard to the compensation of people who have suffered damage by reason of floods, etc. Heavy rains are the natural acts of Almighty God and we can never blame him for giving us abundant rain for beautifying our country, the Transkei. It is not usual that the Government should compensate people who have suffered losses as a result of heavy rains or assist people who built their houses poorly. Usually a Municipality makes an appeal to the public to contribute generously towards a fund. You want to load everything on the Government Are you aware that you are loading that on the taxpayer? The Treasury has got financial controls and we stick to the letter in so far as expenditure is concerned. I am sure my hon friend is so intelligent that he understands what I say. Even if he was making political capital out of this situation I think he has missed the boat. MR GUZANA: The Government should make an EX GRATIA payment. M/FINANCE: I would move that this House expresses its sympathy with all the people who have suffered losses as a result of the floods anywhere in the Transkei .. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. M/FINANCE : ...and we hope that in those districts where there is damage the leaders in those districts will try to open up funds for the public to contribute generously towards the assistance of these people. As regards the Tsojana Dam, money was voted by this Government for the construction of that project and we have an obligation to see that this dam is completed. I move now that the bill be read a second time and I am happy that the hon the Leader of the Opposition has no objection to it. M/HEALTH : I second. Agreed to ADDITIONAL APPROPRIATION BILL: COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY M/FINANCE : Mr Chairman, I move that the House should now sit in committee of supply to consider this Part Appropriation Bill. House in Committee D/CHAIRMAN: We shall now proceed with the Transkeian Additional Appropriation Bill and I shall ask the hon Minister to put Clause 1. Clauses 1 to 4 put and agreed to. Long title put and agreed to. D/CHAIRMAN: Will the hon Minister move that I report progress. M/FINANCE: I move that the Deputy Chairman report progress. M/AGRICULTURE : I second. Agreed to M/FINANCE: Mr Chairman, I move the adoption of the whole bill and that the schedule stand part of the bill. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, this House had been moved to request the Deputy Chairman to report to the Chairman and it is only subsequent to 7.
the acceptance of that resolution that the schedule has been moved. I would therefore request the hon the Chief Minister to move that his original motion for the Deputy Chairman to report be rescinded so that the schedule is dealt with within the context of the committee stage and then move that the Deputy Chairman report progress. House Resumed D/CHAIRMAN: The hon Minister moved that I report progress and he was seconded and the House agreed. I now do so. I wish to report that the bill has been dealt with in committee stage and it was passed without any amendment ADDITIONAL APPROPRIATION BILL: THIRD READING CHAIRMAN: I call upon the hon the Minister of Finance to move that the bill be read a third time. M/FINANCE: I move that the Part Appropriation Bill be read a third time, Mr Chairman. 'M/AGRICULTURE: I second. Agreed to. The bill was read a third time.
dependence is going to bring to the Transkei, and let no-one be deceived by the thought that independence for the Transkei means the culmination of the political aspirations of the black man in South Africa. CHIEF MINISTER: Talk of the Transkei and not of South Africa. Come back to the Transkei. MR GUZANA: I find it difficult not to talk about the Republic of South Africa because your financial umbilical cord is tied to that Government. M/JUSTICE: Just as yours is tied to Ncokazi and his group. (Laughter). CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR GUZANA: You are obsessed with your brother-in-low that is your trouble. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR GUZANA: Our umbilical cord was truly and clearly cut on Friday. The political aspirations of the black man are a desire to find realisation in South Africa, not only in the Transkei, and the political exercises of the black man in the Transkei are no better than the exercises of a tadpole in a small pool. The significance of the Government's acceptance of independence is this - that this Government is condoning accepting and countenancing the political philosophy of separate development as enunciated by the Republic. MR H PAMLA: Why don't you stop flirting with the Progressives? MR ĞUZANA: I shall stop flirting with them when the Deputy Chairman attends correctly and accurately to procedure during the committee stage (Laughter) CHIEF MINISTER: How does the concept of your policy differ from that of the United Party in South Africa? MR GUZANA: Mr Chairman, I want to make it clear to this Government that I am neither attacking the Progressive or United Party or whatever party, but I am dealing with this Government. The fire is being started in front of your hut, not somebody else's hut. CHIEF MINISTER: We want people to know you have an alliance with someone. MR GUZANA: And so I say if you accept independence for the Transkei you accept the political philosophy of separate development; and however much you may try to put it otherwise, however much you may seek to sugar the pill, however much you try to negotiate and say you are not accepting that concept of separating the races, the basic fact is simply that where you accept the existence of an ethnic state you are accepting the existence of separate development CHIEF MINISTER: What do you mean by "ethnic state"? The Transkei is not an ethnic state. It is a nonracial state.
MR C. DIKO: Mr Chairman, I think as a minister of religion it is inhuman to have that man interpreting all day long. Before the no-confidence debate begins may we have another interpreter, please, Mr Chairman: CHAIRMAN: Hon members, I will hand that matter over to the leader of this House. I think it is very bad for one person to interpret throughout the day. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, in view of the fact that you have indicated that this would be burdensome on the one interpreter, may I suggest that in order to reduce the burden he occupy a seat next to me as he interprets. Apart from that, he is not in the best of health. CHIEF MINISTER: We have no objection to that, Mr Chairman. NO CONFIDENCE MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and bon members, I stand up to move: "That this house has no confidence in the Government." Mr Chairman, we are in a period of change. For the last thirteen years there has been a clash of ideologies over the concept of separate development and the concept of multiracialism. The basic concept of this Government has been to excise the Transkei from the Republic whilst the Opposition has emphasized a continuance of the Transkei as an integral part of the Republic. The governing party, because of its entrenched majority, created artificially, and because it has had the Republican Government_behind it for all time, has now come with a FAIT ACCOMPLI to present to us. Whether or not the people of the Transkei are enamoured of this constitutional concept is still an open subject; and whether or not this Government is going to succeed in implementing and establishing and continuing to run an independent Transkei is still very, very much open. The manifested enthusiasm s0 far which shows itself in jerseys that have been identified with the date of independence (Laughter) does seem to me to be an indication of overreaching on the part of the Government. M/JUSTICE: The Government has manufactured no jerseys. MR GUZANA: I did not say they manufactured them. But sentiment has tended to confuse many and to give them an idea of a Utopia coming to the Transkei and I am afraid disillusionment awaits them around the corner. CHIEF MINISTER: How do you arrive at that? MR GUZANA: Let me explain our position quite clearly on this issue of independence. To my mind the inauguration of an independent state comprising the Transkei is as tragic as the flood damage on the Tsojana Dam. M/JUSTICE: And just as tragic as the downfall of the Democratic Party. MR GUZANA: To which we do not belong. M/JUSTICE : Your umbilical cord has not yet been broken. MR GUZANA: And none of the Government should think we are going to emigrate to the moon because they have brought upon this catastrophe. (Interjections) We shall face up to the impediments which in-
MR H. PAMLA: What do you hope to achieve by this? MR GUZANA: The hon the Chief Minister tells me the Transkei is not an ethnic state but a nonracial state .. CHIEF MINISTER: It has never been an ethnic state. You are talking nonsense. MR GUZANA: .... so that chiefs will fall by the wayside, for they will have neither tribes nor people to govern in a nonracial state (Laughter and interjections) and we shall have neither Pondos nor Tembus nor Bacas nor Sotho-speaking people in the Transkei. We shall have neither Blacks nor Whites nor Coloureds in the Transkei. We shall have an amorphous, nondescript population without identity at all. (Laughter) We shall therefore ask this Government to define specifically and in clear terms what it means by a nonracial state. M/JUSTICE: You will get it. MR GUZANA: Up to now Government spokesmen have avoided a definition of nonracialism as I would avoid the plague. They have accepted what you would describe as a negative attitude towards the reality of a heterogeneous population in the Transkei. But I must get back to my point - I was merely replying to a question. MR C. DIKO: Are you against independence, Mr Guzana? Be clear. CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR GUZANA: May I suggest that the hon member for Tabankulu attend to his business of preaching? Not that I would listen to his sermons, because the Devil has his own preachers, too. (Laughter) Because this Government has agreed to accept this political philo-
8.
people the moon and the Government does not want to tell the people that it is going to be sweat and labour and sacrifice before it makes any success of independence. M/JUSTICE: If we are building a nation it must be sweat and labour. MR GUZANA: Of course it involves that, but have the people been prepared for that? I want to say here quite clearly that this Government must tell the people of the Transkei that its population will be multiracial even after independence, M/JUSTICE: That is your duty. We are not going to tell them about multiracialism. MR GUZANA: They must not avoid this consequence by sidetracking into what they describe as a nonracial Constitution. M/AGRICULTURE : We ran away from the argument of multiracialism. MR GUZANA: The most honest confession I have ever received is that which comes from the hon Minister of Agriculture when he says they are merely running away from the word "multiracialism". (Laughter) M/HEALTH: When did he say that? MR GUZANA: He has just said it now, before me. Now will the Government come out in the open and tell us it is accepting policy of multiracialism? M/JUSTICE: That is no policy. MR GUZANA: It is more positive than a negative policy of nonracialism, M/JUSTICE: It is no policy, it is a description of a position that is existing. MR GUZANA: And if multiracialism describes the existing situation then legislation and policy must take into account the existing population. M/JUSTICE: Not necessarily. You have been squealing in South Africa but it has never been taken notice of. MR GUZANA: At least it is positive enough to recognize the realities as against nonracialism which closes its eyes to the realities of the situation. MR H. PAMLA: The African people want freedom. MR GUZANA: Indeed this Government is now like an empty punch-bag. M/JUSTICE: A punch-bag is never empty if it is emoty it is no punch-bag. MR GUZANA: It tells everybody that it has deflated itself of the air of separate development and it says it has put in something which is non-existent. I find myself punching an empty bag with nothing in it. Will you please pump up your political bag so that I may hit something at least? M/JUSTICE: I was wondering why you are so hopeless this morning. I see it is because you are punching nothing. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR GUZANA: Thank you for the admission. Now we know where we stand. It is quite significant that these people who have been emphasizing ethnic divisions, cultural divisions, social divisions between Blacks and Whites have now come up with a nonracial policy. M/JUSTICE : Your Deputy Leader does not even understand you. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR GUZANA: It was only last year that this Government in seeking to justify separate developmennt used these words: "The things which have for so long divided Black and White in the Republic are so funda mental, emotive and related to the existence of undeniable ethnic loyalties, dislikes and acquired fears that they simply cannot be glossed over in instant Republic wide multi-racialism, one-man-one-vote and majority rule which would do no more than paper over the cracks." These are the sentiments and the convictions of a dedicated apartheidist. They express a conviction that races will remain separate for all time. They are sentiments by a person who believes that there can never be common ground between people of different race groups, and now today, out of the same mouth, we hear the words nonracial, nonracialism. If you like you can call a polecat a wild cat but it will still smell like the skunk that it is. It is therefore inconceivable for you, the Government, to speak in the language of a man dedicated to separation of the races at the one instance and then come along suddenly and tell us about nonracialism. Were I to believe that, were
sophy of separate development the Republican Government is pouring more and more money into the Transkei and saying what good fellows they are. MR H. PAMLA: Hear, hear. MR GUZANA: After all, a man who sells his soul must get some reward in return. (Laughter) When a man sells his rights or his expected rights politically, economically, socially, culturally in the Republic there must be a mess of potage given to him. In fact, as we have progressed towards the 26th of October 1976 I have noticed a growing amount of evidence of selfsatisfaction in the faces of those who have been fêted for having sold their birthright. The manifested satisFaction would give you the impression that butter would not melt in the mouths of these Government members, and since you have cast the dice I hope you will never at any time squeal when you get what you say you asked for. MR PAMLA: What do you want? MR GUZANA: I have said what you say you have asked for, because implicit in the policy of separate development you are going to be moved will-nilly along towards independence whether you like it or not and your expression that you want independence is no more than a squeak in the direction of separate development. MR C. DIKO: What is your attitude towards independence? MR H PAMLA: As well as the attitude of the Mqanduli people whom you represent. MR GUZANA: The hon member for Tabankulu wants to know what my attitude is towards independence. I have just explained it, Sir, I don't know if you want a repeat of it but if you do want a repeat, get hold of the Hansard and read. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR GUZANA: I make bold to state that many of the Government members have misinterpreted and misrepresented this impending constitutional change when they have gone to the electorate, and the first step in that direction of not telling the people what it is all about was when this House diverted its attempt to sound public opinion into the hands of tribal and regional authorities. Are you therefore amazed that at meetings they ask the question: What has self-government given us? What is independence going to give us? What is it? And they are still asking those questions now. This is evidence of the fact that the Government members have been sidestepping this issue, this responsibility to the public of telling the people what is meant by independence - what they mean by independence and what it will entail. Ninety-seven good solid men and two fair ladies have failed to discharge their duty to the public. (I may add three fair ladies, counting the hon Minister.) The reason is simply that you don't know what you are selling to the public. You are unable to describe to the public specifically what independence entails. You behave fike the parent who throws its child into the pool and says: You will find out how to swim when you are in the water. M/AGRICULTURE: That is the best way. MR GUZANA: Usually that experiment ends with a funeral. (Laughter) I hope you are not getting yourselves ready for the funeral of the Transkei, because of this headlong rush into independence for which we are not prepared. I therefore castigate this Government for having neglected almost callously its responsibility to tell the people what is all about and it is thriving on ignorance and making the people ride a wave of ignorance in a situation about which they know next to nothing. MR H. PAMLA: How many meetings have you held in Mqanduli? MR GUŻANA: As late as 30 March I held a meeting. (Interjections) Some people are asking me whether I have held a meeting in Engcobo. Firstly, it is not my constituency and the fact of the matter is that some of you Government members move out of this House at the end of the session and sit down and do not even hold meetings in their own constituencies at the tribal authority office. (Interjections) You are going to see me in Umzimkulu very soon and woe betide you when I get there. I do hold that a responsibility rests upon this Government, which responsibility has not been discharged to the people of the Transkei. This concept of independence is promising 9.
the world to believe that, then one of these days we will believe that Satan has become a very good fellow.
protection of the right to life; the protection of the right to personal liberty; protection from slavery and forced labour; protection from inhuman treatment; protection from dipriviation of property; protection of the privacy of the home and other property; protection of a recourse to the protection of law; protection of freedom of conscience; protection of freedom of expression. M/UJSTICE: Protection of everything - say so . MR GUZANA: If I were to use that phrase they will not know what I am talking about. (Laughter) It includes protection of freedom of assembly and association; protection of the freedom of movement; protection from discrimination on the grounds of race etc. That is the concern of any Government which seeks to establish a pseudo independent state .... CHIEF P. JOZANĂ: Come to the motion. MR GUZANA: .... and if we have a Government that does not know what we are talking about, who can have confidence in such a Government? M/JUSTICE: Now, a question before you pass on and leave policies. You have told us about the difference between multiracialism and nonracialism. Will you now tell us the difference between multiracialism as seen by you and multiracialism as seen by the old kraal where you come from. MR GUZANA: This is indeed a diversion, but I shall indulge the hon Minister of Justice. No doubt for the last 13 years we have spelt out the policy of multiracialism as it should be and as we accept it under the name of the New Democratic Party. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR GUZANA: I hope that at the time when you do have an opportunity to speak you will go further than just mumbling and howling and say what your objections are. (Laughter) I have said repeatedly that the Democratic Party was, on 3 January 1976, highjacked but those who highjacked it never realised that some of the passengers in this aircraft were fully armed. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR GUZANA: At the right moment, the psychological hour, the strategic point, they fired back and rescued the basic principles of the Democratic Party to become the basic principles of the NDP. M/JUSTICE : For "Non Diploma Purposes". MR GUZANA: But the highjacked aircraft has gone haywire. Immediately the world was told that because of the situation in Mozambique, because of the Angolan situation , because of the uncertain Rhodesian impasse the days of white South Africa are numbered. Such a thought is anathema to the concept of multiracialism and so you see the first difference. The Democratic Party was further described as a "liberation mevement" and the liberation movement in this world today has become associated with highjacking kidnapping, subversion and holding people to ransom all that sort of thing. It dissociates itself from dialogue and consultation and uses force to attain its ends. A liberation movement never finds its way into constitutional bodies where matters are discussed and settled by dialogue. At once the MODUS OPERANDI was changed, for the Democratic Party has participated in these institutions not because it condones their policies but because it wants to rescue something out of them. It is essential, therefore, for a liberation movement to be noncollaborationist (as they term it), not to be involved in the process of change, whatever it is; so that the Democratic Party as a liberation movement could not care less whether there is a parliament or not, whether there is a government or no government, and it seeks to secure its purpose by extra-procedural means. The NDP is here to stay, whether you like it or not. This is a fundamental difference between the NDP and the DP. It has ceased to be a political party - it is a political organization, whilst the NDP is a political party involved in constitutional and administrative functions. (Interjections) The platform from which they canvass is not to bring (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Hon members, the hon the Leader of the Opposition was responding to the interjection or point of explanation asked for by the hon the Minister of Justice and I feel he has sufficiently canvassed the point asked for by the hon Minister. I request the hon the Leader of the Opposition to come to the motion.
MR H. PAMLA: He has always been a good fellow. MR GUZANA: I want this Government to say specifically and clearly what it means by nonracialism. M/AGRICULTURE : Look it up in the dictionary. MR GUZANA: If I remember the history of the political struggle of the black man in South Africa it laid emphasis on participation in the highest legislative body in South Africa. When Whites represented Blacks in the Legislative Assembly of the Republic the black man said: Let a Black man go and represent us there. They sought to make it a multiracial body, therefore. M/JUSTICE: When was that? MR GUZANA: It was at the time when you were associated with political organizations which became banned. M/JUSTICE : Yes, that was when you were doing nothing and you only decided to join politics when this House was formed . MR H. PAMLA When it was safe to do so. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR GUZANA: So all along your struggle has been to create a multiracial central government -and suddenly, just because you say you have asked for the independence of the Transkei, you tell us of a nonracial policy. What do you mean? Do I see a threat the danger of separate development and segregation dressed up afresh, anew in different colours? Is it not that here we are having a Government which is committing itself to this concept that the majority in the nonracial state shall have the majority decision at all times? M/AGRICULTURE : We are joining the OAU next year. MR GUZANA: When you join the OAU that will not help you use our land properly, or use our agricultural and pastoral potential profitably. If you were to send me to the OAU I would react like Falstaff, who refused to march his tattered army to Coventry. (Laughter) There is a need for us to see the realities of the situation - that we shall continue to be as we are population-wise in the Transkei, and if we do concede that fact then it means that in our administrative, judicial and legislative bodies we have to recognize that our reality points towards a multiracial state. I have challenged some of the Government members on their conviction relating to what we call a Bill of Rights. (Interjections) They ask me what I mean by that. M/JUSTICE: Who asked you that? MR GUZANA: Members of the Government side. They don't know what it is all about. M/JUSTICE: They know even the origin. MR GUZANA: They don't know it guarantees their right of ownership to property; they don't know it guarantees their right to go to the law courts for legal redress; they don't know it protects their rights to privacy . M/AGRICULTURE: There is no need. MR GUZANA : they don't know it protects their rights of free speech and free association. They have been conditioned by Proclamation R400 into relegating the basic rights of the individual to the limbo of forgotten things, and yet today more than ever, when democracy is threatened, the Bill of Rights becomes significantly relevant. M/JUSTICE: It is not assisting the American Blacks today. MR GUZANA: At least in America for once, after being non-racial for so many years, they have realised they are multiracial. M/JUSTICE: It was a multiracial state. Don't say it was nonracial. It still is multiracial. MR GUZANA: They have now recognized the fact that there are other races in the United States. (Interjections). CHAIRMAN : Order, please. The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the motion of no confidence was resumed. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I was telling this House about the ignorance of hon members of the governing party on the issue of a Bill of Rights. May I draw your attention to what other countries think of a Bill of Rights. It is the 10.
MR GUZANA: Mr Chairman, I did say it was a diversion and I was merely indulging the hon the Minister of Justice. Now that you know what we mean by a Bill of Rights what does this Government say? For if you wish to make a success in nursing your doll at least you must reflect in your administrative, legislative and judicial bodies the character of democracy. On the international mirror you must reflect a picture of a country which values, entrenches and protects democratic rights for all persons, no matter of what race, no matter of what colour, no matter of what retigion - even the religion of the hon member for Tabankulu. M/JUSTICE: What is his religion? MR GUZANA: Zionist. (Laughter) It has been ar gued that as an underdeveloped country the Transkei must of necessity rely on its mother country - the Republic of South Africa. In other words, the mother must tell the child what it can eat and what it cannot eat. It is in a position to scold, to chide and chastise this child. One of the fundamentals of life is that he who pays the piper calls the tune, so that the Repu blican Government can still dictate to that independent Transkeian Government because it pays the piper. I can hear the false notes sounded on nonracialism and all that, but the mother will call you to tune and strike the tuninng fork and tell you to sing the tune correctly. (Laughter) I am the last person to suggest that any country can be economically independent of other countries but this is based on a QUID PRO QUO basis of interchange of imports and exports as between the countries that are economically interdependent. I ask the question: At the present moment what do we have in the Transkei that we can export in order to get something into the the Transkei which we do not have? I am sure Government members are just itching to say we export muscle and brawn and, in fact, that is just about all we can send to the Re public. M/JUSTICE: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, I don't think the extra seats that we have in this House were intended for persons when they want to have private discussions together and sit in some remote corner.
MR GUZANA: Form a company! I need not tell you the story of the Prosperity Insurance Company and I need not repeat to you the fact that so suspicious are we of one another that we cannot even trust our own shadows. (Laughter) My emphasis is that the Transkeian Development Corporation, a statutory body, will be obligated to the Government. Now, what is the difference between nationalization of industries and factories in a country on the one part and control by a Government of all the industries and factories on the other part? I do believe that we need to rethink our economic structure with this Government or this Government must rearrange its priorities and know what has been done to generate economic development internally. Up to now we have been grateful for the investment of moneys in the Transkei by outsiders. We have praised the XDC for attracting entrepreneurs into the Transkei. All we have been doing is to say "Thank you, thank you, thank you" and doing nothing about generating wealth in the Transkei. Last year the hon the Chief Minister praised the institution of chieftainship. He stated here that chieftainship ensues an ordered society in our tribal ways and each person knows his or her place . I begin to look with suspicion upor. any man who says an institution ensures that everybody, man or woman, knows his or her place. If this is our concept of what we think chiefs should do and maintain, then this is the worst indictment against the institution of chieftainship, for indeed we shall be condoning the perpetuation of a situation where ignorance is bliss. No person shall have room for initiative and enterprise be cause he must know his place under the chief and development will be as fast as ignorance continues under the guardianship of chiefs and the institution of chieftainship. (Interjections) If I don't come back to the next assembly you will have drowned in the Umzimkulu River. (Laughter) So that we are indeed condoning a situation where the white oppressor in the minority is represented by the elite in the Transkei and you have the city slickers who will be driving in limousines, very fat and enjoying the fat of the land, whilst the tribesmen are being told positively to know their place under the chief. Exploitation by any name is equally reprehensible. On the other hand you want to entrench traditionalism; on the other hand you claim you are most democratic. You cannot have your cake and eat it at the same time. M/JUSTICE: You can have it and eat it, but you cannot eat it and have it. MR GUZANA: You can have it and eat it, but having eaten it you no longer have it. M/JUSTICE: That is why I say you cannot eat it and have it. MR GUZANA: You are not listening to what I say. M/JUSTICE: I am listening carefully to you. MR GUZANA: The trouble is with all the listening you are doing you are not registering anything. M/JUSTICE: We don't have to register anything. We don't want to listen to your nonsense. MR GUZANA: Whenever I speak in this House the wisdom slides over that bald head down the back. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR GUZANA: Let me point out that urbanization discounts tribal rule. Any process of developing underdeveloped countries is surely going to mean the beginning of the end of chieftainship and whilst we sing a song of praise to chieftainship we at the same time involve them politically, and such involvement is the beginning of the road to the grave of chieftainship. (Interjections) At the next parliamentary session I shall move that I be recognized as the chief of Ncambedlana. (Laughter) You will fall under my jurisdiction because you will be living in a ministerial house in my area and as regularly as you receive your ministerial allowance, so shall you have to come and pay homage to me. (Laughter) Emphasis has been laid on practising economies and this Government has somewhat boasted that it has indeed exercised economies and these are reflected in the surpluses paid back into the Treasury. I think if we are going to be fair, let us commend the Government on that programme of saving expenditure. However, they are like my grandson who has a savings tin into which we now and again drop coins but he constantly rattles this tin and as soon as it makes enough noise he suggests we open
D/CHAIRMAN: Will the hon members take their seats, please. MR GUZANA: I regard the export of labour on a contract basis as a glorified form of slavery. Since, therefore, we have nothing to export into the Republic when we receive so much from the Republic, we cannot describe the relationship between the two countries as one of interdependence economically. All we can say is that the Transkei is dependent upon the Republic. Under this head of economic strength we have at the present moment the Xhosa Development Corporation. The planning of the future is that there shall be a statutory body known as he Transkeian Development Corporation. At the present moment no-one can gainsay the fact that the XDC has an economic monopoly almost amounting to a stranglehold on the economy of the Transkei. As a statutory body it is going to hand over its functions to another statutory body the Transkeian Development Corporation, which will be a government body so that the Transkeian Development Corporation will also have a monopoly of industrial development in the Transkei. MR K. G. NOTA: It is holding the industries in trust. MR GUZANA: In trust for you, for me and for everybody else, and whilst it is holding these indust ries in trust capitalism is increasing, industry is proliferating and it is growing from an initial capital investment of R2 million to a capital investment of R15 million after ten years. It is holding these industries in trust for you and for me - people who are earning a wage of R200, R260 a month and a labourer earning R48 a month. If you can quote me any country in the world where the wage-earner has been able to raise sufficient capital to buy over a running industry then I shall believe that the Transkeian Development Corporation, which will be the successor to the XDC, shall be holding the industries in trust. Assuming you are able to save R2000 a year and you work for 30 years you will have R60 000 --- not even half the original capital invested in that industry, which may be R1 million. MR NOTA: People can form a company.
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out very smartly on Wednesday last week, that they impressed everybody, but it did not fill anybody's stomach with food and this is the most important thing. Feed my people; feed your people. The extravagance is therefore altogether unwarranted. Mr Chairman, I am coming towards the end of my butchery but I must draw attention to the developing Sowetos in the Transkei . One such is bursting at the seams next to Butterworth. We have regularly and repeatedly criticized the housing of Blacks in the urban areas of the Republic. We have condemned the dormitory structures which rise six or eight storeys into the sky to house temporary bachelors who have left their wives at home to go and work in the cities. Now we have a Government which can say "No" to these disgraceful housing provisions but instead of doing that we find that the Government is turning a blind eye to the creation of what I call a Soweto round Butterworth and the establishment of these dormitory flats which go up into the sky to house men or women. Is this Msobomvu township going to be the pattern of the construction of sub-economic housing for men who are going to become urbanized because they work in the factories? Is the Government going to condone graintank huts to be occupied by human beings - hot and expect these people in summer, cold in winter to be highly productive when they start early in the morning to work until sunset in a factory? However much this Government may say this is an endeavour of the XDC, this is the Government of the Transkei and it can say yea or nay to that developing situation which is going to bring moral problems, problems of drunkeness, problems of brutality, creating a Soweto right in Butterworth. I put it to this Government that it has neglected a moral duty to the people of the Transkei by condoning right from the outset such structures as are being and have been put up in Msobomvu township. Now I want to ask the Government a few questions before I sit down. What is this Government's policy to be after 26 October 1976?
the tin. (Laughter) If you ask him what he wants to buy he replies "Ice cream" something that does not last, something which does not fill his stomach, something which may cause him toothache later on, and that is the type of Government we have. (Laughter) They practise economies in one direction or another but they allow themselves the luxury of sending trainee diplomats overseas - a bit of icing over this independence cake. MR H. PAMLA: You are a typical armchair critic. MR GUZANA: These men are placed in the invidious position of propagating an image of a Transkei which is as yet nonexistent as an independent state. They go there without a policy from this Government which has rejected separate development in order to have that pomp and majesty which attaches to a country with diplomatic representatives overseas. We pay each one of them not less than R18 000 a year and what are they doing over there? MR PAMLA: Have you had a report? MR GUZANA: They are telling the outside world that the mother is about to give birth to a baby, that the labour pains are beginning to manifest themselves (Laughter) and that this is going to be a bonny baby - wait and see how lovely it will be all to the tune of over R18 000 a year per learner diplomat. Why is this being done? And when you look at the personnel that has gone overseas ! Speech is silver, silence is golden when we speak about them. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, hon member. Hon members, it is my duty to control the discipline of this House. It will be remembered by the individuals in this House that they should behave but I am not supposed to control the people up above because they are here by privilege. This is my first and last warning. MR GUZANA: If one were to put them under a microscopic eye and award them marks to determine whether or not any self-respecting government can send them away even as trainee diplomats I would say their aggregate would be very, very low indeed. I want to warn this Government that it had better be careful with our money, especially when the money is spent to no purpose. One would have thought the presence of these men would be reflected through the foreign visitors who come to the Transkei who might be expected to say: I am Mr X, Y or Z at the Embassy in Paris, London, Bonn or Washington; but there is not a word about them. What is the Transkei getting out of this inordinate item of expenditure? Let me be a prophet even if I am not a minister. I will lay my head on a block that some time in the not too distant future some of them will be homing back to the Transkei and they will be looking for ministerial posts and such other luxury posts as this Government constantly awards to loyal politicians. MR H. D. MLONYENI : E.g? MR GUZANA: The hon member for Kentani asks for an example. I shall give him as an example. (Laughter) MR MLONYENI: But I am not a Minister MR GUZANA: He lost his teaching post in the Transkei; he lost his teaching post in the Ciskei. He returned to his tribal kraal and had to know his place (Laughter) and so he became a political convert and found himself walking into this House. Now he is the Chief Whip of the governing party. Who knows that he is not looking up to the luscious grapes of ministerial appointment. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR GUZANA: I have given an example, Sir. MR H. PAMLA: You do the same with your henchmen MR GUZANA: I say the same of an army for the Transkei. This place is insulated against_aggression by the territory known as the Republic of South Africa. If any country sought to attack the Transkei it would have to violate either the air or the territory of the Republic, which would be an act of war against the Republic which in turn would mean the Republic would step in. If our geographical position guarantees protection to us by another country may I know what relevance has an army to the defence of the Transkei? MR PAMLA: I thought you were intelligent. It is very simple to understand. MR GUZANA: I have been told these men turned
CHIEF M. N. MATANZIMA: You will know then. MR GUZANA: Now, this is typical of all chiefs. When you ask them a question they are all knowing and yet tell you nothing. They always tell you you will see and probably they will call you aside and give you a shambokking. (Laughter) When you return to the "inkundla" you are silent and they think you have been given the explanation. (Laughter) So I don't accept this promise of the future - you shall know. - What is this Government doing to Question No 2 — prepare the hearts and the minds of the people for what it says it wants -- namely, independence? What are they doing other than erecting a luxurious presidential palace, the expensive ministerial complexes, the sky-scraping administrative block? What is this Government doing to reflect its policy in the judicial, administrative and legislative bodies of the Transkei? What training is this Government giving to its 30 000 employees, as reported last year, constituting about 96% of the civil service? What is it doing to prepare them for the responsibilities of your monstrosity? What curbs are being provided in order to minimize bribery theft of public funds, corruption, indiscipline, drunkenness, neglect of duty, absenteeism? What checks are being provided in order to reduce these ever recurring ever increasing and ever corruptive tendencies? And is it not a fact that Africanization, which has been your obsession, is beginning to hamper the very machinery which you seek to have ticking over smoothly? Your politics say: Get everybody else out and put in a black man, be he ready or not ready to take over these responsibilities. MR H. PAMLA: Now surely that is irresponsible. MR GUZANA: Everything is almost grinding to a standstill as a result. The hon member for Umzimkulu says this is highly irresponsible. MR. PAMLA: Yes, it is. You are just being irresponsible. MR GUZANA: Anybody who would say a white chit of paper is black would be speaking irresponsibly. We have to be frank about these matters and even if you live in darkness of night, as reflected somewhere on you (Laughter), I must bring the saving light of understanding and knowledge so that you can come out of darkness into the light. MR PAMLA: You must withdraw that. That is irre-
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seven people (and I presume that the old Democratic Party will support their baby) - seven people plus five people, making twelve people in a House of 98, dare to say this House has no confidence in the Government. One wonders, therefore, whether these twelve people speak for themselves and, if not, for whom are they speaking? A casual analysis of the membership of the Opposition in this House will show that the Opposition benches have got eight elected members out of 45. They have four chiefs out of 65, so that the old myth which the Opposition members had - namely that the Government side consists of chiefs has been shown to be false by the figures I am quoting. I shall first take the New Democratic Party and take them individually to show what support they have in those areas. Firstly, if one takes the number of chiefs in Mqanduli, all the chiefs in that area support the Government. Now, let us take the elected members, Mr Guzana and Mr Nkosiyane, who are at variance at the present moment. There are two sections of voters the one set supporting Mr Nkosiyane and the other supporting Mr Guzana -30 how can it validly be said that the two members from Mqanduli are voicing the opinion and the views of the people of Mqanduli in this House? None of them can tell us that he enjoys the complete confidence of the people of Mqanduli. If one goes to Gcalekaland, the hon the Paramount Chief supports the Government. I shall concede that in that area the voters support the Old Democratic Party, but the two members who were elected on the ticket of the old Democratic Party have since joined the New Democratic Party, so how can the two elected members from Gcalekaland tell this House that they enjoy the confidence of the people of Gcalekaland? If you take Mr Zibi from Mount Fletcher - he is a lone voice crying in the wilderness. (Laughter) All the chiefs in his area, together with another elected member, support the Government but he, too, was elected on the ticket of the old and rotting Democratic Party - rotting if not rotten already. (Laughter) Now, how can he tell this House that he voices the opinions and enjoys the confidence of the people of Mount Fletcher? CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA: We are still under the same policy as before. ACTG C/MINISTER: Under the same policy? You don't know what you are following. (Interjections) Why are you sitting there then? If that is the real Democratic Party you must be a false Democratic Party. What an admission that there is a real Democratic Party and a false one. CHAIRMAN : No dialogue, please. ACTG C/MINISTER : I am glad of this revelation it is very revealing and I am glad Mr Ncokazi's Democratic Party is the real one. With regard to my hon Paramount Chief Sabata, whom I respect very much, I think the Paramount Chief will have to be visited by the Tembus. He is in the wrong camp. I shall not say more about the hon Paramount Chief than that, except to say he is alone where he is. The other chiefs of Tembuland are all in the Government Party with the exception of one or two. The two elected members from Umtata are on the Government benches, so we are waiting for the hon Paramount Chief to come over at any time and join his people. CHIEF G. M. MABAŇDLA: You are going to highjack him. (Laughter) ACTG C/MINISTER: Now, if one looks at the position of the regions in the Transkei, five regions out of nine support one hundred per cent the Government party. Of the remaining regions, in Emboland only one lost sheep does not support the Government and that is the hon chief in front of me ·-· Chief Mabandla and as it will always be that a chief must have somebody to go along with even in his meandering in a lost land .... (Interjections) It is not my fault, Chief Mabandla, that you ran away from school and you don't know who is in the subject and who is out of the subject. I am showing you the confidence the Government enjoys and I think the School for Sons of Chiefs and Headmen is waiting for you. (Laughter) In Gcaleka region only four members support the Democratic; Maluti region only the hon Mr Zibi supports the Democratic Party; Dalindyebo — of course that is the region where the Democratic Party enjoys its support and even there it is a question of Engcobo. Now I want to take districts. Engcobo ― three members out of six support the Opposition;
sponsible. You are telling the world a pack of lies. MR GUZANA: I will quote you figures. I will give you statistics but you are an irresponsible member of the Government and I will not do that because if I were to give you those statistics it would embarass the hon Minister. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR GUZANA: You must know there are more facts that we know about than we reveal in this House and if we get hon members pushing us into saying these things in the open then you are going to find yourself embarrassing your own Government (Interjections). I ask the Government what it is doing to make certain beyond doubt that justice shall be done to the public from the time a complaint is lodged with the police until judgement is given in court. Will I receive justice from the police because I am black and have gone to a black policeman, and a man who is a white man or a Coloured man not get the same justice because he is white, because he is Coloured? CHIEF H. Z. ZULU: That has been the case in the past. MR GUZANA: Those who argue that this has been so in reverse are betraying a thought for revenge somewhere sometime in the future, and that they will use their majority against other groups It is quite interesting to learn from Government members that there shall be peace and amity amongst the differentt racial groups in the Transkei and then you get an expression of sentiment such as that from the hon chief of the station at Ndabakazi. Is this Government going to reduce the wage gap continuously? (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR GUZANA: Is that gap going to be between the black and who else? The purpose is to improve salaries and wages and the improvement of salaries may mean one employee is getting more than another employee and the white man's wage is not necessarily the yardstick for determining the wage of a black man. Has this Government realised that there is need for involvement of an underdeveloped people in industrialization? Is it not right that we should rearrange our priorities and place agricultural and pastoral farming first and foremost so that we have secondary industries in an agro-pastoral industrial revolution, so that the people know they are contributing positively to the change that is being brought about in the economic face of the Transkei? Those who have ears to hear, let them hear. Thank you, Mr Chairman, MR N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman, I second the motion. ACTG CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon members, my first duty in reply to the motion of no confidence by the hon the Leader of the Opposition is to move an amendment by deleting all the words after the word "House" and by substituting therefor the following words :"has full confidence in the Government and further expresses its grave concern at the communistic orientation of the Democratic Party with a view to imposing a Marxist Transkei state on the unwilling inhabitants. It is obvious to this House that it is a further object of this Party similarly to cause chaos and confusion in the Transkei before, during and after the independence celebrations. This House directs the Government, in view of the objects aforesaid, to take all reasonable steps to foil any activities that may be taken by this Party with a view to causing such chaos and confusion and thus safeguard our country." M/INTERIOR: I second, Mr Chairman. ACTG CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, last Friday this House was turned into a group of midwives and witnessed the birth of a new party -- the New Democratic Party, (Laughter) Were it not for the fact that we live in an age when men have landed on the moon, when men have transferred hearts of men into other men, I would be surprised at the child who had started speaking a few days after his birth (Laughter), hence the former leader of the Opposition Democratic Party who is now the new leader of the New Democratic Party seems to have, in his transformation from one party to another, forgotten that in 1964 he addressed this House on the vote of no confidence in exactly the same manner as he has addressed the House today. However, Mr Chairman, the moving of this no-confidence motion today is as much of a joke as it is a paradox. It is a joke and I call it so because
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Mount Fletcher - only one: Maanduli two out of six support the Opposition; Qumbu - only one memmber out of six; Tsolo - only one out of four; Umtata only one out of four. Of the rest of the districts ---- 28 in all - 21 districts support the Government one hundred per cent. Now, where do you hon members of the Opposition get the temerity to say this House has no confidence in the Government? I have called the moving of this motion a paradox because the Opposition has passed a vote of no confidence in itself. GOVT MEMBERS: Hear, hear. ACTO C/MINISTER: When the old Democratic Party passed a vote of no confidence in the leadership and the executive that was tantamount to passing a vote of no confidence in itself, and so much did they find they had no confidence in themselves that they went and took a nonentity, a political cockerel, a political colt from somewhere (Laughter) and made him a leader. Then, of course, in their wisdom the seven men decided to pull out of that mess. I am coming to this political cockerel because he has made so many statements that I am sure he is an embarrassment to that party. The first statement he made after his election was that he would organize demonstrations against the orderly celebrations for independence in the Transkei. Now never anywhere in the country have I seen demonstrations which are not attended by violence. Fortunately, a warning has been given to him and his henchmen to the effect that when they make such demonstrations they must be sure that such do not disrupt the peace and quiet of the Transkei. A paper from Durban styling this political nonentity as a "new idealist" had this to say about him that his first aim would be to sabotage the carefully planned independence of the Transkei. He has not disputed the contents of that report, so the five men across the floor are a group of saboteurs and I warn them here and now (they have said in the past that I am issuing threats) that if they do not dissociate themselves from acts of sabotage as enunciated by their leader then they will find themselves in the same box as himself. In the same report the paper quotes him as saying that if independence is forced upon the people of the Transkei a revolution will be inevitable. I wonder if he knows what revolution means? I wonder how he knows that there will be a revolution? I wonder whether he has planned this revolution together with some other persons? May he be advised that a revolution in a country is a very, very serious thing. He may say he did not say these things but as long as he has not disputed the reports in the paper we take it that he did say these things and that he agrees with the paper. Leaving him alone for a while, I wish to correct an erroneous statement and one which is always voiced by some persons in some quarters. They say the Government has abandoned separate development. Separate development is not a policy - it is an act of doiing something. It is an act of developing separately. If the Government of the Transkei had abandoned separate development then the Transkeian Government would abandon this very House of Assembly itself. This House of Assembly is based on separate development. If the Government of the Transkei would say they are no longer fragmenting or Balkanizing the Transkei from the rest of the Republic. Having separated the Transkei from the rest of the Republic by a process of separate development you now come to the policy and say that in this separate state, separate from the Republic of South Africa, you are going to apply a certain policy. MR H PAMLA: Hear, hear.
of South Africa when it is a multiracial state? For all these years why do we have discrimination in the Transkei when the Transkei has always been a multiracial state? You cannot make a state to be more multiracial than it is, but you can make a multiracial state to be nonracial in its actions amongst its citizens. GOVT MEMBERS: Hear, hear. ACTG C/MINISTER: That is why we say in this Transkei which for the last three hundred years has been multiracial, and which still has discrimination, that after 26 October we shall be nonracial in our dealings with the citizens of the Transkei. GOVT MEMBERS: Hear, hear. ACTG C/MINISTER: In a multiracial state you can have the injustice of discrimination and that is why in America the Martin Luther Kings had to fight for a Bill of Rights. It is erroneous to argue that because a state is multiracial there will be fairness and all the things that go with human dignity; but when once you have said that there will be nonracialism in a country you cannot have discrimination. Mr Chairman, I move that we adjourn until 11 a.m. tomorrow.
Agreed to. The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 24 March 1976. WEDNESDAY, 24 MARCH 1976
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS CHAIRMAN: Hon members, it would appear that there is some confusion as far as the seating positions in this Assembly are concerned. It would appear that there is a section amongst the Opposition side who do not comply with the suggested seating in this Assembly. I would therefore request the hon the leader of this House to move that the members should comply when they are allocated their seats by the Secretary of this Assembly. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, your position is very clear in that everybody has to comply with your instructions in this House. The dissident group in the Opposition ranks have to comply with your instructions and I move, Sir, that they all remove from the seats occupied by the hon member for Mqanduli, Mr Nkosiyane, and by Chief Mdanjelwa, and hive off to the right. One of their number will then have to sit at the back in order to allow two members of the Opposition to sit in those seats. There are seats empty on the Opposition benches. I don't think there is anything sweet in the seats that they occupy. These seats are all alike but this is an arrangement which I think is fair to the dissident group and also to the others. If, however, they should come into power they will come and occupy the seats being occupied by the Cabinet at present. (Laughter) I move accordingly, Mr Chairman. M/JUSTICE: I second. Agreed to. ACTG C/MINISTER: Mr Chairman, I have to announce that the hon member for Willowvale, Mr Moses Dumalisile, was not here yesterday and will not be here today. The magistrate telephoned to the effect that he is involved in arrangements for the independence celebrations. Don't make a mistake - he is not involved because he is for independence but because he is a resident of Willowvale and must necessarily be involved when the independence celebrations are being arranged. The following chiefs will not be in the Assembly tomorrow as they have been summoned to Qaukeni by the hon the Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland on administrative matters :- Chiefs Stanford Sigcau, Makosonke Sigcau and Ntsikayezwe Sigcau.
ACTG C/MINISTER: Then the Transkeian Government has given that policy which is to be applied as one of nonracialism in this Transkei separated from the rest of the Republic. I have said multiracialism is not a policy it is an explanation, a description of the position which is obtaining in the Transkei, which is obtaining in the rest of the Republic . The Transkei has always been multiracial ever since we were here together with the white people and the Coloured people and the rest. The Republic of South Africa has always been multiracial ever since in the Republic there were Blacks and Coloureds, Whites and Asians and all the rest of them. If, then, in a multiracial state multiracialism means that the people be equal, why do we have discrimination in the Republic
NOTICES OF MOTION 12. Mr. J. M. Sigwela gave notice to move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should consider the advisability of increasing subsidies granted to farmers by the Transkeian Government when purchasing bulls and rams to a 50/50 basis." 13. Mr. J. M. Sigwela gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Trans-
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keian Government should consider the advisability of increasing the period given to Development Assistants to have drivers' licence before being employed on permanent basis from twelve months to twenty-four months. " 14. Mr E. M. Dekeda gave notice to move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Department of Roads and Works be requested, as a matter of urgency, to have Road No. 1 , i.e. from Tsomo to Ndabakazi tarred, as well as the road from Butterworth to Qolora Mouth."
within the area of jurisdiction of the Cacadu Tribal Authority; and of Fulinzima Dabulamanzi Mtirara as sub-chief of the Tembu tribe resident within the area of jurisdiction of the Xongora Tribal Authority. CHIEF A. B. DALINDYEBO: I second, Mr Chairman. The motion was carried unanimously, NO CONFIDENCE The debate was resumed. ACTG CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon members, yesterday I was still dealing with policies. I dealt at length with the so-called policy of multiracialism and showed this House that while it is caled a policy it is not a policy by any stretch of imagination. I showed this House that it is merely an explanation of the STATUS QUO in the Transkei and in the Republic of South Africa. I shall now come to the policy advocated by the Transkei Government namely, the policy of nonracialism. I also showed this House that the policy of nonracialism, as far as the Transkeian Government is concerned , does not do away with separate development. Dr H. F. Verwoerd, the architect of separate development, had this to say: "I shall grant the Bantu people self-government culminating in independence in their own areas in order to enable them to shape their own destinies. " Fortunately, he never prescribed the MODUS OPERANDI of the shaping of that destiny so that he left it to the persons concerned to decide as to how they were to shape their own destiny, hence the Transkeian Government has opted for a policy of nonracialism in the shaping of their own destiny. The hon the Leader of the Opposition, for his own purposes , pretends not to know or understand the concept of the policy of nonracialism. The policy of nonracialism guarantees that there will be no discrimination against persons because of their colour or race. It is a direct opposite of the policy of apartheid or segregation. Last year I showed this House that there is a marked difference between separate development and apartheid. I can see the hon member for Mount Fletcher, Mr H. H. Zibi, shake his head. It is because these things are too high and lofty for him. (Laughter) To prove to you that separate development is not the same thing as apartheid, I will further submit to you as follows: You know, some people are, in the words of a certain wise man, as thickskinned as a white man. One old man said a white man is so thickskinned that you have to hit him once, twice or thrice on the same spot before he can feel your lash, so that while I told you the difference between the two last year and also touched on it yesterday, the hon member for Mount Fletcher does not yet understand. MR H. H. ZIBI : No, it is not that I don't understand. ACTG C/MINISTER : I told you last year that apartheid contains discrimination according to race, but separate development is the separation of people according to areas or countries. MR ZIBI: Without discrimination? ACTG C/MINISTER: I am coming to that . Without discrimination, because the Transkei is getting separated from the Republic of South Africa and it is opting for its own policy of nonracialism, but if I want to go and sleep in a white hotel in Umtata that is not separate development when I am not allowed to - it is apartheid, it is discrimination. If you are refused admission to a white cinema you are not being separated you are being discriminated against. Now, the policy of nonracialism guarantees the very matters which were canvassed by the hon the Leader of the Opposition in his hue and cry for a Bill of Rights . Nonracialism guarantees that there will be no curtailment of freedom of movement because of the colour or race of a man. Nonracialism guarantees that there will be no bar to freedom of speech of a man because of his colour or because of his race. Nonracialism guarantees that there will be no bar as to how a man should think because of his race or the colour of his skin. Nonracialism guarantees that there will be no curtailment of movement of a man because of his colour or because of his race. Nonracialism guarantees that a man shall not be prevented from undertaking certain types of jobs because of his colour or because of his race. Nonracialism guarantees that a man shall not be subjected to inhuman treatment because of his colour or because of his race. This leads me to the
CREATION OF SUB-CHIEFTAINSHIPS: UMTATA DISTRICT ACTG C/MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon members, on behalf of the hon the Chief Minister I move the following motion :"1. That whereas the Dalindyebo Regional Authority has, in terms of sub-section ( 1 ) of section 45 of the Transkei Constitution Act No. 48 of 1963 resolved. that new sub-chieftainships be created in respect of the Tembu tribes resident in the areas of the Cacadu and Xongora Tribal Authorities in the Umtata district and that Headmen Gangatile Dumalisile and Fulinzima Dabulamanzi Mtirara, respectively, be designated as sub-chiefs thereof; 2. And whereas this resolution entails the creation of new sub-chieftainships in the Transkei; 3. Now, therefore, in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should in terms of sub-section (2) of section 45 of Act No. 48 of 1963 consider the advisability of recommending that the State President should confirm : (a) the creation of the new sub-chieftainships in the Umtata district in respect of the Tembu tribes resident within the areas of the Cacadu and Xongora Tribal Authorities in the Umtata district; and (b) the designation of: (i) Gangatile Dumalisile as sub-chief of the Tembu tribe resident within the area of jurisdiction of the Cacadu Tribal Authority, and (ii) Fulinzima Dabulamanzi Mtirara as sub-chief of the Tembu tribe resident within the area of jurisdiction of the Xongora Tribal Authority, with effect from the date of assumption of duty as sub-chiefs." Mr Chairman, this is a non-contentious motion before this House and I have no doubt that this House will dispose of it as soon as possible. In moving the request for the creation of the new sub-chieftainships in the Umtata district and the designation of Headman Gangatile Dumalisile and Headman Fulinzima Dabulamanzi Mtirara as incumbents to these subchieftainships I wish to state that they comply with the primary requisites for the designation of subchiefs, namely: Gangatile Dumalisile is a descendant of the Second House of Tato who was the father of Zondwa and Dawo. He is therefore of royal blood. Fulinzima Dabulamanzi Mtirara is a descendant of the Righthand House of Dalindyebo, the father of Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo. The sub-chiefs designate are heads of the Cacadu and Xongora Tribal Authorities respectively and the creation of these subchieftainships would accord with the Bantu Authority concept of a chief as head of a tribal authority. The Paramount Chief of the Dalindyebo region held meetings of tribesmen in the areas of the proposed subchieftainships. The meetings were well attended and the tribesmen unanimously supported the creation of these sub-chieftainships. The tribal authorities were also unanimous in their support of the proposed subchieftainships. The ethnologist of the Department of Bantu Administration and Development who conducted a survey of chieftainships in the Transkei towards the end of 1971 commented as follows in connection with the establishment of chieftainships in the Umtata district:- "Because we are dealing here with one tribe the personal one of the Paramount Chief, the appointment of chiefs does not depend on the old establishment of chieftainships but on the creation of new chieftainships from the immediate family of the Paramount Chief." With these few words, Mr Chairman, I move that this Assembly should consider the advisability of recommending that the State President should confirm (a) the creation of new sub- chieftainships in Umtata district; and (b) the designation of Gangatile Dumalisile as sub-chief of the Tembu tribe resident
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by one of the international journalists the question as what he thought of majority rule Mr Smith said: "Not in the foreseeable future nor in a thousand years." And you dare to bluff yourselves and to think that Mr Vorster, in not half the difficulties Mr Smith has, will just hand over to you like that! So when any of you eleven members stands up, please tell us what you would opt for with regard to the two alternatives I have put to you. They are the only ones. (Interjections) I am glad the hon member for Mount Fletcher says "We will fight". Thank you. (Laughter) I would like to see you off with your rusty spear against helicopters and machine guns. So much for the question of alternatives. The hon the Leader of the Opposition questioned the economic viability of the Transkei. That question reminded me of the story of two dogs. One dog was very lean with the bones sticking out; the other dog was very fat and smooth and shiny. The lean dog said: Why are you so fat when I am so lean? The fat dog replied: Look, I eat everything I am properly fed. Then the lean dog discovered that there were hairless patches around the fat dog's neck and asked him what had caused the marks. The fat dog said: I am tothered, you know, and I can hardly move around. The lean dog said: Look at me - I am free and I am never tethered. You can have your fatness but I would rather be free and eat as I can. (Laughter) Nevertheless the Transkei has got all the potentialities of being economically viable. Agriculture has hardly been tapped in the Transkei, but more than that, who knows but that we have the potentialities of a number of minerals in the Transkei? Recently in the Sunday Tribune appeared an article headed: "Locked under the sand dunes of the Transkei lies a kaizer's ransom in titanium, zircon, rutile and ilmethe so-called heavy metals -- and if investiganite tions by German and Italian interests this month are successful a vast new mining and benefication project could launch the Transkei into financial independence following its political independence in October. Initial investigations show that R6 milion spent on the mining venture plus R40 million of a pigment plant would unlock a treasure trove worth well over R1 000 million in total value or around R27 million a year. A report has been prepared by Dr I C Rust of the University of P.E. and is based on 355 boreholes drilled in the Kentani dunes which lie along the southern coast of the Transkei. The report indicates payable quantities of 5 134 159 tons of ilmenite, 202 031 tons of rutile and 362 756 tons of zircon." Now, you will notice that our yearly budget up to now is about R102 million and if we could go in for this, which is worth R1 000 million, who could doubt the economic viability of the Transkei ? In any event the Transkei is in the position in which it is today because of the status quo which you would like to retain. The Transkei should have long been developed in various aspects, but no, because of the status quo the Transkei was reserved as a labour reservoir and it was never developed. Everybody has seen the phenomenal development of the Transkei since 1964. If during the twelve years of self-government the Transkei could be so developed as it is today, how much more would it have been had it been developed 300 years ago. Compare the development now and that of 300 years ago. The hon the Leader of the Opposition complained of what he called unnecessary waste of money on the training of our soldiers. He has done that because he is disappointed as a man who vowed some years ago that the Transkei would never get an army of its own. In any event, what independent, completely sovereign state can go on without any army of its own? So opposed he is to the creation of the Transkeian army that he even lost his geography. He says any country that dared to attack the Transkei would have to move over the Republic. Supposing Lesotho wanted to attack us on what Republican ground would Lesotho have to move before attacking us? And has he forgotten the 120-mile coastline from the Kei Mouth to Port Edward? Over what Republican country would a country wanting to attack us from that end have to travel? It is most ludicrous and, in fact, I am not surprised because a man who wants to remain in the Republic of South Africa will do everything, will say everything, to discredit the attempts we are making to get out of the Republic of South Africa. You know, the question of the Transkei and the importance of the
point that in a policy of nonracialism there is no need for a Bill of rights, because the safeguards that may be required in a Bill of Rights are guaranteed in the policy of nonracialism. As I said yesterday, you need a Bill of rights in your so-called nonexistent policy of multiracialism and the very necessity of a Bill of Rights in a situation like that is because there are no such guarantees. As I have said, multiracialism is in the Transkei, it exists in the Republic of South Africa, but for all these years we have been discriminated against. So much for the policies. Now, the hon the Leader of the Opposition said, amongst other things yesterday, that the struggle of the black man politically was because the black man aspired to be in the central Parliament where the decisions of the country are made. We admit that I admit it, more so because I was directly involved in those political struggles while the hon the Leader of the Opposition was in the political doldrums at that time. Now this political Rip van Winkle suddenly wakes up and sings the same songs that were sung in the 1950s. But what do you get from shouting: We want to be in Parliament in Cape Town? There are three alternatives facing the black man in South Africa today and you have got to choose between those three alternatives. The first alternative is to allow the STATUS QUO to continue; the second alternative is to engage in a bloody confrontation with the white people of South Africa; the third is to opt for peaceful excision from the Republic of South Africa and paddle your own canoe. I would like to see a black man in this House who is going to stand up and say he opts to remain as we are to opt for the present STATUS QUO. I have still to see one black man in this House who is going to say he opts for a bloody confrontation with the white man in South Africa. You know, when we were small boys there was a time when people said the Americans are coming to free the black people in South Africa. (Laughter) Today I can see some of them waiting and saying the Mozambicans, Angolans, Cubans or Russians are coming to free us. Those people are interested in their own freedom, they are interested in their own liberation they are not interested in your liberation. You are like a man who may be in difficulties in a flooded river and instead of helping himself he keeps on looking round to see who is going to assist him. We have asked you several times to tell this House how you are going to manage to go to the white man's parliament in Cape Town. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: How did the white man go there? ACTG_C/MINISTER : The Cripple Care people are waiting for you. (Laughter) You have not yet told us how you are going to manage to go to the white man's parliament in Cape Town because the white man has told you in no uncertain terms that you will go there having trampled on their dead bodies. Now, I have given you three alternatives. (Interjections) You are voiceless even before you have started speaking. I don't know how you are going to manage because there are only five of you and one is a cripple and the other is voiceless. (Laughter) I have said there are two alternatives, because you are against the third which is the freedom, the independence of the Transkei. You are against it so you are left with two, Now, tell us which of the two you choose. Do you choose to remain as you are and have the buildings at Butterworth being built for you? I am glad he referred to that because this is an outcome of the system he wants to remain in South Africa and have those pondokkies such as the ones built in Butterworth. Do you want to remain as you are and keep on getting the Kiffir salary you are getting? Oh yes, I am very happy the hon the Leader of the Opposition aluded to the amount of money received by the trainees overseas. The amount received by those trainees is the same as the amount received by the white trainees in South Africa. Do you now complain because those people are getting the same salary as the white people? You would rather choose to remain as you are and, as I say, receive the Kiffir salaries. You know, it is a fallacy for any of you to think that the white people in South Africa will just hand over to you on a plate. On Saturday I listened to a speech on TV by Mr Smith, the Prime Minister of Rhodesia. You know the difficulties, if you read the papers, under which this man and his Government are labouring, but when he was asked
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Transkei and the question of the independence of the Transkei being a fact now has even been supported by ardent critics of the Transkei set-up. A certain Mr Oettle writing in the Daily Dispatch and replying to the criticisms of that political colt, H B Ncokazi .... (Interjections) It is a good thing you said he is not in the House. We invited him to contest a seat and he refused. He should be here. This gentleman criticized the Progrefs and the United Party for saying that the bringing into par the number of ex officio chiefs and the elected members was a step in the right direction. He said it is no use those people saying they are against the system in the Transkei and then supporting certain measures in connection with it. But this Ncokazi is so ignorant of politics that he does not even know that he himself is involved in the very politics he seeks to criticize. If he is not, why is he struggling and seeking to be a leader of the Democratic Party which is a political opposition in the Transkei set-up? (Interjections) He is a leader. We don't care for dogs who bark and bark outside the House. Now, this gentleman writing in the Daily Dispatch has this to say: "We have thus reached an interesting state of affairs rather reminiscent of that in the fairytale 'Peter and the Wolf', where the weak were about to be overwhelmed by the powerful wolf, but by keeping and using their heads, and by adroitly manoeuvring, they vanquished the powerful. When the Transkei becomes independent in October a new era in the history of our country willopen. The people of that territory will walk tall as fullbodied citizens of an independent state -the first step towards great dignity and job opportunities. Their attitude will influence not only their brethren in the other Bantustans, but also the white electorate who at present hold all the power. The Transkeian Government will seek much needed assistance and will get it. The potential sources will be the West, Russia, China and South Africa - what is left of it. Since South Africa cannot afford to let the Russians and Chinese in she will have to stay in the markert all the time. Thus the weak will have a very strong bargaining position. Nor is that all - an independent Transkei will be able to offer landlocked Lesotho access to the sea and thus change Lesotho's bargaining position." He mentions many other aspects, and so you can see that the Transkei on attaining independence will be in a much stronger position than it is today. The hon Leader of the Opposition, just because for a change this year he held one or two meetings with his electorate, wants to know what the Transkei Government is doing to hold meetings and educate the people of the Transkei about the forthcoming independence. The hon the Chief Minister has held meetings from June 13 last year to February 15 this year. The other Ministers have done likewise and held meetings all over the country. The other members of the Legislative Assembly have done 80, but can we say that our attempts to educate the people are without handicaps? The handicaps are
Party but the old Democratic Party. You want to know how this is relevant in this House? It is relevant because, firstly, the House has got to see whether or not this House has any confidence in the Government. It is relevant because I seek a directive from this House to deal with these communistic orientated elements in the Transkei. During 1950, when the South African Communist Party was banned in South Africa by the enactment of the Suppression of Communism Act, the Communists decided to infiltrate all other legal organizations. They infiltrated the African National Congress which was, prior to that time a nonviolent organization, and they took over the leadership. In 1965/66 a report came through a newspaper saying that a certain Mr Roley Ahrenstein had alleged that his party was receiving assistance from the Democratic Party of the Transkei and we warned the hon the leader of the Opposition that in his party he was harbouring some communistic orientated personalities. Now there is a document which was sent to one of the members of the Democratic Party by the underground South African Communist Party I won't say who he is. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: Come out with the name. ACTG C/MINISTER: A time will come when he will know who he is. As I have said, in this very House there are signs and suggestions of resorting to the activities of the Communists in the Transkei, hence I seek a directive from this House to deal with such this side of the House which elements. The House enjoys the confidence of the electorate in the Transhas got a mandate to go on with the indepenkei dence of the Transkei. You know, there are all sorts of questions which are asked. One day whilst I was in Malawi I met an ambassador from Zambia. He asked me why we in the Transkei opted for independence and left the other Blacks suffering under the rule of the white man in South Africa. I retorted and said: "You in Zambia and Malawi and Rhodesia were in the same federation. Why did you in Zambia and Malawi dissolve the federation and leave the other Blacks suffering under Mr Smith's rule?" I further told him that, coming nearer home, Lesotho, Botswana and Swaziland, although in South Africa, never asked what would happen to their brethren in South Africa when they wanted independence. They took their independence. In any event, we have a mandate and we are going on. As I have said, this fact is supported by the ardent critics of the South African Government. The Sunday Tribune of March 21 has an article under the heading: "Kaizer King as Opposition Folds." This article has this paragraph: "In parliamentary terms Chief Matanzima certainly has his independence mandate The trouble-free passage through the Assembly of the 'Nkululeko' Constitution now seems assured whilst comfortable government majorities can be expected in the parliamentary elections in the Glen Grey and Herschel districts." Hon members, I have said all I wanted to say and I shall move my amendment accordingly. MR N. JAFIA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to second the motion by the hon the Leader of the Opposition - namely, that we have no confidence in this Government. I say emphatically that we have absolutely no confidence in this Government. Firstly I want to mention that we are proud of our number which is now seven. There is definitely a point as far as that number is concerned, because it is backed by the Almighty. (Laughter) It refers to something which has been completed. When the hon the Minister of Justice spoke he tried to pour cold water on everything that was said by the hon Leader of the Opposition. He said he regarded all that had been said as a mere joke. He was trying to ridicule what was uttered by the hon the Leader of the Opposition. He also indicated that what has been uttered by the hon the Leader of the Opposition has been repeatedly said during the last 13 years. If it were so then that would imply that the speaker is a man who is not a will-o'the wisp but who will remain firm to the statements he believes in. This means that these seven people are people of integrity. The hon the Minister of Justice stated that we have no mandate from the electorate, yet we know that we have followers . He stated that out of the 26 districts in the Transkei, 21 were composed of pople who supported the Government one hundred per cent. That does not surprise me because the Government has a greater advantage than anyone
these twelve people in front of me. (Laughter) They go to the people with all sorts of scare stories about independence; they tell the people they will never be able to go anywhere when we are independent; they tell them they will be locked in the Transkei and will find no outlet to get out; they tell the people they will never go to work; they tell the people that the old-age pension will be done away with. Now, those are the stories being disseminated by some of the hon members across the floor who are against independence, especially those of Willowvale. Now, Mr Chairman, another aspect which really disturbed me was when the hon the Leader of the Opposition criticized the Transkeian Government on the step they had taken to groom people to be used in the diplomatic missions of the Republic of South Africa. He queried their capabilities and abilities; he queried as to whether they were the type of men to be sent abroad. Those people were picked out on merit and I am pleased to tell this House that the reports that we have received from their tutors in Pretoria were of the highest grade. These men have gone overseas to learn, so I fail to understand the attitude of the hon the Leader of the Opposition when he says we - hear nothing from them . They are not ambassadors they are under training. You will recall that the second part of my amendment dealt with the communistic orientation of the Democratic Party. (Interjections) Not the New Democratic 17.
else because the greater number of people in this House are chiefs. Right from the beginning the regulations were so made that we should have fewer numbers than the ruling party so that we should also meet with difficulties. (Interjections) Because we are fewer in number than the chiefs ... MR C. DIKO: When are you coming to policy? Come to the point. CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR JAFTA: Again, he has informed us that his policy namely, that of separate development - is no policy, and this is something he has told us constantly over the past years. I cannot follow him in this because the policy of separate development was given to him by the Republican Government. He stated that all the people had accepted independence but when you listen to the remarks made by the people you will find that they fear independence . ACTG C/MINISTER: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, this is the very thing that these people say when they go to the people. They tell untruths because I never said ALL the people in the Transkei accept independence, nor did I say they do not accept it. MR JATFA: We on this side claim that the question of independence should have been taken up with the electorate, so that they would have had a full explanation. Where we went to certain places and explained about independence we found that the people knew nothing about it and they had never been told anything about independence. GOVT MEMBERS: What places are these? Where did you go? MR JAFTA: We always state that we wanted a share in South Africa on an equal basis, together with all the races which inhabit the country. We are the aborigines of the country and the whole country belongs to us. We don't want to be separated into groups. We will go to where we are being forced to go and we are being dragged there by the greater numbers on the Government side, not because it is according to our wishes. The hon the Minister of Justice stated that nonracialism is their policy today. We say nonracialism has the same meaning as the policy of separate development, because in both you will find an element of oppression, as far as minority groups are concerned, by the larger groups . ACTG C/MINISTER: Where is that provided for in that policy? MR JAFTA: You have not told us yet. (Laughter) He also posed a question as to how we would go to parliament in Cape Town as the white people have said we will never get there except over their dead bodies. We are aware that conditions change. We will not go to Cape Town by force, but by means of detente. ACTG C/MINISTER: How much better are you than Mandela and others? MR JAFTA: We shall go to Cape Town through consultation . (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR JAFTA: With all nations detente is the most important weapon ..... ACTG C/MINISTER: It is failing. MR JAFTA: .... and therefore we will go to Cape Town Today detente is the most important thing. All cultured nations state that the minority groups should not be oppressed but should be granted their rights For that reason we stand as the children of South Africa and the children of South Africa are entitled to their rights, be they black or white. The hon Minister mentioned some minerals which can be mined in the Transkei. We received these promises a long time ago but nothing has yet materialized. At one time it was stated that certain minerals would be mined from the mountains, but nothing has resulted. Another promise made was that along the coast there were certain minerals which would be exploited ... ACTG C/MINISTER: You don't believe in the minerals in the Transkei and yet you hope to go to Cape Town. MR JAFTA: These minerals, as well as oil, have been sought for a long time but up to now nothing has been obtained . We have seen nothing of it. ACTG C/MINISTER: Your talk of going to parliament in Cape Town started in 1912 and nobody has gone to parliament up to date.
MR JAFTA: Now there are indications that such things can happen today and because the Government has been promising people things which never materialize we can never have confidence in such a Government. Many things have been said but nothing has ever been attained The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the motion of no confidence was resumed. MR N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to continue my address and to express the opinion that the Government intends misleading us. The Government says that the policy of multiracialism which we have been advocating since 1963 is no policy. I do not understand what the meaning of all this is, because they say that for the last 300 years this has been continuing. The elected members of the New Democratic Party adhere to this policy of multiracialism which we feel is most suitable to the Transkei. It will remain so forever. All we want is just to revise things which may not be suitable, such as the separation of people according to colour; job reservation in which certain work is reserved for certain people and not others; the pass laws and others. Those are things which can be rectified by discussion. Everything can be put right by consultation between the people concerned, because if there is no consultation nothing can be rectified. We are South Africans, we are Transkeians. You will find Transkeians all over the Republic from the Transkei here. Our aim is to have this matter rectified for all those people throughout the country. Let us not only concentrate on Transkeian citizens. MR H. PAMLA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I am fortunate to speak after a very great preacher in this House. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, I understand that in this House there is one Democratic Party and then there is the New Democratic Party and as such if we have to speak there are three parties in so far as I am concerned, and I represent the Democratic Party. GOVT MEMBERS: Sit down. You are standing on one leg. CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Continue, hon member for Umzimkulu. MR PAMLA: Thank you, Mr Chairman. This preacher has said a lot of nonsense and I don't think I should waste the time of this House in comments on what he said. The hon the Leader of the Opposition yesterday spoke of some Government members who are looking forward to big slices after independence, such as getting cabinet posts, etc. My only comment to such remarks is that the grapes are sour. Mr Chairman and hon members, I rise in support of the first speaker on the Government side. This House has full confidence in the Government and those who express no confidence in this Government despite the recent revelations in the support of the present Government can only be branded as dunderheads. MR K. M. GUZANA: You had better withdraw that. Mr. Chairman, that is no parliamentary language. He had better withdraw that. MR PAMLA: I withdraw, Mr Chairman. For 291 years the idea of separate development or segregation in South Africa has dominated the political, social, economic educational and religious spheres of life and whosoever imagines or hopes to alter the white man's course along this centuries-old path of segregation is either walloping in a pool of abysmal ignorance or is susceptible to clever manoeuvres of white imperialists whose vested interests take priority over the individual liberty of the black man. These European intruders saw a glorious opportunity of amassing wealth and freedom in a country that was then inhabited by savages and thoroughly ignorant. They lost no time in enjoying the wealth of our country. Their first attempt towards intergration showed that the better developed community was running the risk of being swamped by the lesser developed people, hence men like Lord Balfour realised that in South Africa a white nation had established themselves in a black continent and that was something that had never before presented itself in the history of mankind. The presence of a manifest white nation at the foot of the dark continent has
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SODI 300 815 yads to snow 10 atdar created a problem that has no counterpart elsewhere in the world. The pragmatic reaction of the Transkeitrees. I will give you the balance sheet in favour of an Government to a unique situation in the entire the independence of the Transkei . The policy of the world merits nothing else but praise and encourageRepublic of South Africa is separate development ment. You will realise that the European adventurers but the Transkeian Government accepts this as a prowho went to the Orient never formed a nation. They cess and not a policy. In other words, as a means to were a mere handful of temporary rulers. an end, hence our policy is nonracialism after indeMG UD orde poin LWA: On a r, Mr MR L. L. t of pendence. Multiracialism is utter nonsense because Chairman, I would that the hon member should adit emphasizes the difference between races, Nonraciress the Chair and not the paper in front of him. He alism does not want to hear a word about race . The is reading what has been written for him (Laughter) Opposition here clinging to the dust while the Gorect ification of that, bai We seek vernment wants gold. They are busy in the woods of the Republic of South Africa whilst the Transkeian MR PAMLA: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I will conGovernment is busy prunning the trees to suit the tinue after the interference of some people who visit the bottle-store at lunchtime. These white traders were needs of its people. I want to remind hon members protected by a garrison whilst they made a fortune of the Opposition that the leader and founder of the Democratic Party, the late honourable and retired to their countries of origin. On the conunt Chief Poto, once told Dr Verwoerd: "You Par havamo e now rary, the South African Whites evolved a language used nowhere else in the world but in South Africa . planted the tree. Please allow us to prune it the way we want it." This is precisely what the Matanzima Today the majority of the Whites in South Africa Government is doing. The process of separate dewere born here. They know no other country and to velopment, the process and not the policy, has given add insult to injury these white gentlemen in 1910 debirth to a Transkeian Government based on the pocided to entrench their rights and privileges . That is licy of nonracialism. It was Alfred Lord Tennyson where the crux of our problem begins Native Problem or "Swart Gevaar" emanat from the ed who said: "The old order changeth , yielding place to so-called new." This new order in the Transkei has finally dethis programme. For many years the black leaders tried stroyed and abolished racial discrimination. I want by various means to pump sense into the white people to warn hon members of the Opposition who come who by this time had become a very strong company here without a mandate from their people that they of white oppressors. Their colour strategy had now beare running the risk of not being returned to this come impregnable. A group of Whites tried to idenHouse in September. If such a large percentage of tify themselves with the black struggle but for all their Transkeians want indepedence it is to me strange to sentiment this group engaged in running with the find, for instance Qumbu people kicking against hares and chasing with the hounds. The result was this independence. I know that the Mpondomisis are that black leadership entered an unfortunate stage of very clever. They certainly would not kick against bickering and quarrelling, which weakened the black independence. They have just been misinformed by strategy. Communistic infiltration into some of the a misinformed leader. Some places in this Transkei black organizations tended to confuse the struggle The are unfortunate to find blind leaders attempting to advent of separate development as a method of solvlead them. It is high time some of these areas looking the African problem ushered a fresh era of mixed ed for new material. You see, if you knew what you feelings among the black leaders. The general tone in were doing you should have folded your books last some quarters was that the white man was again dodg week and just crossed the floor because what you are ing the issue and that he was deliberately applying the trying to say here is not the opinion of your electopolicy of "Divide and rule". This subtle policy of "Dirate. We may perhaps find a reasonable percentage vide and rule" has not succeeded in the Transkei beat Engcobo, because Engcobo has always been a colcause the Transkei is the first area in South Africa to lecting depot for some revolutionary elements. opt for complete freedom, which is the logical concluMR L. L. MGUDLWA: On a point of order, Mr sion of separate development. It is not surprising, but Chairman, if that hon member across the floor does ludicrous to find that there are Bantu thinkers in this not withdraw that he may substantiate his statement. House who oppose not only independence but venture MR PAMLA: I can substantiate my statement. to express no confidence in such an outcome. The poThe hon the Minister of Justice gave you three litical and economic stability of this Government alternatives, being the only ones by which we can should be an eye-opener to any feebleminded personasolve the South African situation, and he told you lity as its practical value to the entire black people. Iwhat this side of the House stands for out of those Its usefulness is evidenced by the total desintegration three. He told you to choose from two and your of the Democratic Party and the emergence of a new leader in Engcobo has openly chosen the one I am party which neither has a policy nor a following, but talking about. He says he does not want to come exists only to lend some semblance of democracy in into this House because it is a pseudo parliament. our Legislative Assembly. I thank you , gentlemen, Which people do you represent here when your leafor this beautiful gesture because you are assisting us der makes such statements? That is why I am conto gain international status and recognition. As for vinced that place is a breeding ground for revolutiothe other bunch (I except the hon the Paramount nary elements . (Laughter) I have suspicions that after Chief of the Tembus who, by virtue of his position independence you are going to apply for excision of has to respect the views of the subjects) all I have to Engcobo to become your own country. say to this group is this: Your stand is not only MR MGUDLWA: You are a daydreamer. laughable but it is clear mockery of democracy . In MR PAMLA: While you are pretending to the a totalitarian state you are just fit to be locked up so world that you want South Africa, you in fact want that your supposed followers realise we are not preEngcobo. Now, gentlemen, please come to your senpared to play any more. If you thought this Governses. The Government is presenting a Utopia for the ment was a joke it is time you realised that we are Transkei complete freedom none of us prepared to offer ourselves as partners in elecplea advantage of a semi- literateand torase andt take te don' sho rts Peo gam wh the ighted and wish to ple o are e. preach revolutionary ideas. commit racial suicide through their revolutionary MR L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon convictions and propensities should quit the Transmem bers, may I crave the indulgence of the Chair app Oct rop kei and join the riate forces before ober as well as the House that in view of the fact that I 26 1976. (Interjections ) This Government will take am an orthopaedic patient I should be allowed to no nonsense from such elements. These are the Deak sitting down. (Laughter) people who will later want to excise a small portion Agreed to. of the Transkei as their independent country or they will organize the popular coups. In conclusion, Mr MR MGUDLWA: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, allow me to quote from the Holy ScripChairman and hon members, as I am sitting down tures, as I am the son of a minister. I am quoting but I am standing up, I stand up to straighten the refrom the only chapter of Obadiah, verse 17: "And cord of the position of this House during the days pos sessions." the house of Jacob shall possess their when I was absent. Now I will alter that quotation to read: "The RepuACTG C/MINISTER: On a point of order, Mr pos sessions." blic of the Transkei shall posess its Chairman, we are now dealing with the discussion on The hon gentlemen across the floor are worried by the motion of no confidence and the hon member absolutely nothing. They can't see the wood for the asked to speak, I am sure the Chair presumed that he was going to take part in the discussion on the 19.
vote of no confidence, but he has now told the House that he is standing up to straighten the record on the events of the past week. It is my humble submission, Mr Chairman, that he cannot do so without seeking the leave of this House and in the absence of the leave of this House he must go on with the discussion on the vote of no confidence. CHAIRMAN: Hon members, I would like to remind the hon member for Engcobo that the issue at stake is the vote of no confidence in the Government so I would request him to be relevant to the issue. MR MGUDLWA: Thank you, Mr Chairman, and with the permission of the House I budge, as I hereby do (Laughter) I stand behind no man in saying I have no confidence in this Government. The Demofor cratic Party says that, apart from the NDP "Not Duly Performed", if we were at Fort Hare, or Not for the Declared Policy of our Party. (Laughter) An intelligent person cannot have confidence in such a Government. The reason why I say so is because how can you say, when you suddenly see a satellite, that you do not know how such a satellite came into existence? When the Government does something wonderful is it possible that the Government is the seventh wonder of the world? We know of only ven wonders of the world. Is it possible that this Government is the eighth wonder of the world? There are two parties today out of the making of the very Government ... ACTG C/MINISTER: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, I think the hon member is misdirecting himself. There is no government which has created two parties. What the Government did was to recognise a party that has the majority of the Opposition parties. If anything, it is his leader who has created two parties. MR MGUDLWA: On a point of question to the last speaker. Mr Chairman ....
matter the rights or wrongs of it, they are not identifying themselves with the white cause." I was interested in the speech by the hon the Minister of of Justice, but for this. He goes out of his way to quote at length what is happening in Rhodesia, but, you know, charity begins at home. What is happening in South Africa today? We are servants of the white man and he glories in that and he names the black man in his own country as a saboteur. ACTG C/MINISTER: Yes, that is what you want. MR MGUDLWA: There is a word "detente". Perhaps he has not read this book. If you read this book you will find the emptiness of that word. ACTG C/MINISTER: Is it empty? MR MGUDLWA: Definite détente. The hon Minister may define détente. ACTG C/MINISTER: Ask Mr Jafta. He told us about détente this morning. MR MGUDLWA: We are not here as we are to countenance anything that is not from the aspirations of the people at heart - that is, the electorate - because we are elected members, most of us. I am not talking of those who came IPSO FACTO as of divine right. (Laughter) I understand, Mr Chairman, that in fact there was some hullaballoo yester day about seating of the members here. It was said that Chief Mabanda must hobnob with me and we must look at the jaundiced eyes of misanthropy. (Laughter) Mr Chairman, we have no confidence in that Government. The last speaker who spoke on the Government side (unfortunately he is outside) seems to be the best highjacker I have ever come across. You know, he said they had accepted separate development as a process, not as a policy. He went out of his way to quote the whole Scriptures under the guise that his father was a minister, but I wonder if his father ever quoted all the nonsense_that he quo ted out of any script by whoever. (Laughter) He presented a fallacious picture in this House -- that morose speaker. (Laughter) I am sorry he is not here. Oh well, someone said he is there but he must be a shadow of his own shade. Where is the viability of the economy of the Transkei, except figures we see published by an expert, but not a single expert from the Transkei? Mr Chairman, we are 80 deeply infatuated with independence but there is no constitution before us now. How can we trust such a Government promises us something that is kept in a bag? If I am not mistaken there was a special session here in October lasting two days. This special session came to a close because certain Ministers went out to find out from the dictionary the meaning of multiracialism. They spoke quite a lot but what they said held no water. How can you trust a Government like that? It is time we faced up to reality. Yes. I know opportunists who see a bear at the door in the morning and in the evening he is wearing a fur coat. (Laughter) An opportunist in the political sphere is the one who is not thinking about the next generation but about the next general election. (Laughter) All these troubles which are now presently taking place occur because all the hon members are interested in is the coming elections.
CHAIRMAN: I shall ask the hon member for Engcobo to proceed with his address. MR MGUDLWA: How can you trust such a Government which does not stick to its word? How can you trust a Government which has such members who in themselves cannot be trusted? Sometimes you will find that members belonging to the governing party are imprisoned for theft. How can you have trust in a Government that is composed of thieves, because this Government keeps our money? (Laughter) I wonder why these people laugh at what I am saying, because it is a serious matter. It needs serious consideration . Sometimes it is alleged that our party is composed of Communists and suchlike, and when I read this paper I was in bed but in spite of that I got up to find out who was making such accusations against our party. Fortunately, when I walked into this Chamber I found a certain hon Minister talking. Even then he carried on talking about certain people who are not even inside this Chamber. How can you trust such people? During my absence, although my name was not mentioned, I was attacked. It is beneficial sometimes to laugh, but now we should settle down and think more seriously. I want now to quote a few comments by Dr Boraine, reported in the Daily Dispatch. He said: "The time had come for a new attitude that would come out fearlessly against the old master- and-servant attitude." ACTG C/MINISTER: Who is Boraine? MR MGUDLWA: You don't know that Member of Parliament? ACTG C/MINISTER: Who is he? He is an Opposition number like you. Speaking your language. MR MGUDLWA: I am not like you, quoting Smith. Who is Smith? (Laughter) ACTG C/MINISTER: He is Prime Minister of a country. MR MGUDLWA: I go further: "The only choice is whether the change will be by violence or by peaceful means . What was needed was the coming together of all people with the emphasis on a sharing of power, rather than domination by either white minority or a black majority." He goes on to say: "By design the National Party is splitting the people when now more than ever before we need a united people. There are Blacks who see their hour of liberation drawing nearer and nearer and, no
Fancy your making statements in the newspapers that those people who had landed on Robben Island such as Mandela, would be released when independence is attained! It is merely another way of seeking votes. We mentioned a long time ago that this should be done. (Laughter) We will not say anything against you because you will one day be in prison and when you are in prison we will plead for you. He who kills with a sword shall die by the sword, come what may. In fine, I say this Government is not trustworthy. Let us now think seriously. The hon Minister stated that people were taken overseas to be trained. What are they being trained for and who trains them? Are you going to say the jackals should call upon the sheep to go to them so that they should show them the correct road to take? (Laughter) You talk about the army that is being trained. We hear they are being trained to ride horses. Can't they be trained to ride horses at home? (Laughter) We should now resort to thinking clearly. Even the white people are laughing because they see how these black people are attacking one another. We must not inflict injury upon each other. As you are well dressed in this Chamber, let us not forget
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that people outside are starving (Interjections) If you say I had a drink you must naturally expect a man who has had some liquor to become drunk, but any one who says I am drunk has to prove that I had drink. Something was said a long time ago about border industries, but that was the end. All I have heard today is just about this independence, and next thing you will hear it is something which takes place in Qamata. Then you will hear that the brother and his younger brother have taken an aeroplane to Pretoria and you hear nothing further. All you hear about the Constitution is that it will be brought within the near future. In the meantime it is said that everybody who fights for his rights is now a Communist. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR MGUDLWA: This practice of threatening us and labelling us as Communist must cease. I wish these members would stop talking about people who have been caught in adultery. I thank you, Mr Chairman. MR W. Z. LUFUFENI: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support the amendment by the hon the Minister of Justice which was to the effect that this House decided it supported the ruling party. The hon the Chief Minister mentioned that he paid visits to the Reef and he usually made appointments and announced that he would be there on such-and-such a date and he usually had full houses at these meetings attended by Transkeians. He would go from there to Cape Town and find_similar attendances, explaining this independence. The hon Ministers have also paid visits to various places and no Minister has reported that this has been rejected by any Transkeians they have visited. Hon members of this House who are supporters of the hon the Chief Minister also visited people in the Transkei and they have not reported any adverse response to such meetings. As it is, I am glad I have had the opportunity to speak after an hon member from Engcobo. He mentioned that the Engcobo people do not support this and they don't want this Government. There is nothing of the sort. There was a bye-election in Engcobo district and they returned a supporter of our party. Mr Mgudiwa has been saying this and that, but he has never had support. The people of Engcobo returned the hon Mr Mxutu to this House. Let us therefore entertain no fears about the Engcobo area because we have converted Engcobo to our side. I sympathize with my hon friend because he is not very well, so I will pass on to something else now, I sympathize with him because I know that when he was handed medicines he was told that the pills and other medicines given to him would debar him from discussions. We noted the trust placed in this Government by the Qumbu people. The hon Chief Majeke was nominated and supported by those people. He stood for those people before the DP vanished. Afterwards they told him to join the ruling party. He listened to those people and took their advice and he is now on the Government side. That shows how the people of the Transkel support this Government. The other hon member was left there and he remained in his small shop selling people paraffin, and they liked that. He came here not knowing what party he belonged to. I do not know how he will go back there because although the people elected him he has forgotten that he was elected by those people. However, judging from his appearance he is near the old-age pension. I think he will ask the hon Chief Majeke to recommend him for a pension, (Laughter) CHAIRMAN: Order, please.
should leave Mr Jafta and the preacher and go there. Mr Chairman, he should think seriously about being left with the paramount chief. He succeeded the late Paramount Chief Victor Poto, who was followed by the Paramount Chief of Nyandeni. Why has he left him and yet he is an able leader? Where does he get the idea that there is no confidence in this Government? There is such a thing as following a person who does not want to be followed. His supporters have given up and when they get home they will not even ask for support in the elections, because he himself will not go and stand at Mqanduli as long as Nkosiyane is still around. Nkosiyane always supported him but they are now asunder. With that short address, Mr Chairman, I sit down and say we have confidence in this Government. I must not forget Ncokazi, the leader who peeps through the window. Leadership is not chewing mealies. You are a leader because you have been born to it, so that when people are in need of a leader they will think about you. Your leadership may entail hitting against obstacles because you like your people. Just because a boy has passed matric and can write papers you cannot judge him as a leader. That is not being a leader. If the leader is a young person and has had no experience and he is supported, it means his supporters are not worthy of consideration. Mr Ncokazi is not aware that these people who encourage him are urging him to get into trouble and when the trouble comes they will just abandon him. CHAIRMAN: Hon member, you have no right to attack an individual personality in this House just because you know he cannot do anything to you because you are protected. When you criticize any person inside or outside here it should be general, please. MR LUFEFENI : Mr Chairman, there is a party on the other side and in that party there is someone who is not a wanderer and that is the Paramount Chief Sabata. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, the hon member seems to equate the hon the Paramount Chief of Tembuland with a nondescript party. The Paramount Chief is in a party which is the Democratic Party. I want that to be straightened out. MR LUFUFENI : Mr Chairman, if I look across this House I see the members on the other side don't even greet one another. They don't even know that we danced together. I spoke about the hon the Paramount Chief of the Tembus. The paramount chief did not attend the meeting concerning the disposal of their chief. He did not even send a representative He did not even write to the papers to say whom he supports. He is just a paramount chief who stands for his area. When our leader went to hold a meeting at Sithebe his brother was chairman and he rewe members who ceived and accepted him with us exactly the same thing support the Government as that which has been done by Chief Dumalisile. These were his words in his address : "Paramount Chief Daliwonga, carry on with your wagon. We are at your side until you finish your journey. The reason why I have taken the chairmanship of this meeting is because I want to do away with those pople who are going to go aside in their speeches and say things which are no good. If you want independence carry on with it. I am there with you. The only thing I cannot sacrifice and throw away is the position of being Paramount Chief of the Tembus. I cannot go now to the places where people go to work and throw away my chieftainship. Carry on, my brother, we shall be at your side until you are over the hill." I cannot say what the other Democratic Party referred to. I cannot say that our Paramount Chief says this or that about it. We claim him. Mr Chairman, I will sit down even though my time has not yet expired. If a thing is dead it is dead like the dodo. It cannot be said to be alive. If two cattle have died we cannot say three have died. One is dead and the other is in its last stages before its death. MR M. P. LUDIDI : Mr Chairman and hon members, a debate such as the one in which this House is at present engaged is one in which the policies of both the Government and Opposition parties are scrutinized with a view to analysing and picking up what is good for the state and discarding what is bad.
MR LUFUFENI: When I speak now about the hon the Leader of the Opposition who has been assisted by the very Government which he says is useless, he was sitting in a distant seat when he came in and he agreed when he was nominated by the Government as the Leader of the Opposition. He is without the mandate of the people, which means that his leadership goes as far as this door. I was disappointed at the hon the Leader of the Opposition who is the leader of this House and he is no leader of the people. He is only a leader of four members. Mr Moses Dumalisile has left them and is preparing for independence, (Laughter) If Mr Guzana is well advised he should also look in that direction and he 21.
of various races. In other words, Whites should be provided for as a racial group: the aspirations of Coloureds and Indians will have to be realised through legislation as racial groups, so that in the end the Government would be having another form of racial discrimination : A form of racial discrimination where various racial groups - that is, groups have their rights and aspiin a multiracial society rations protected and balanced through legislation. Mr Chairman, we may turn to the system now followed in the Republic where only one racial group - the white group - is provided with all the privileges. Now on the contrary, according to the policy of the NDP, all races in this case will be provided for, and equally, but the fundamental principle is that racism is involved - hence the Bill of Rights hence the clamour for the protection of minorities. Mr Chairman, we on this side of the House dissociate ourselves from a multiracial policy. We are not concerned with which race you come from or to which race you belong. You may belong to the Pondo tribe or the Fingo tribe or to the Xhosa race or the white race. To us that does not count. All we are concerned with is the individual, no matter what his origin, regardless of his colour or his racial group. A citizen of the State will remain a citizen and we don't attach any rights to his position in society. He may come from the white race but if he is a citizen of the Transkei he carries franchise. Then he will enjoy the privileges offered by the Government. When he goes to the post office, which is a government agency, or to the police station to report a case, the government officials there will not be concerned from which race he comes. They will only serve him as a citizen of the country. I hope this will serve to clarify the confusion in the minds of some of the Opposition members. I wish to refer such confused hon members to what is taking place in the post office down here. There you will find an example of what nonracialism is. The Leader of the NDP knows this. He has had experience of this. You go to the state courts here in Umtata and the old practice of the Republic where there is a separate entrance for Whites and a separate entrance for Bantu has been discarded here and thrown away. Here we all sit in the same court. To take another example, when we have to renew our licences in the Revenue Office that is another example of nonracialism. "Non" means no. In other words, in the new state of an independent Transkei we do not want people who will be talking about racism, racist and so on. The word "racialism" will be forbidden, Before I sit down, Mr Chairman, I would also like to refer to the question of diplomatic trainees overseas. Yesterday I could not make out whether or not the hon the Leader of the Opposition was against the principle of training these people or was against these people getting R18 000 a year. He went on to say that the foreign diplomats visiting the Transkei do mention a word about these trainees. I just want to draw the attention of the hon members to an earthly parallel. Take, for example, the Department of Education in the Transkei which gives scholarships to some brilliant scholars to go and study at St John's College or train at Cicira, but we don't talk about them. It is not important that the foreign diplomats should say anything about them. All we want is that these people receive training and become qualified to represent the Transkeian Government. We want to sell the policy of the new Transkei and we don't care whether they recognise us or not. (Interjections) This reminds me of a lecture we were given_yesterday by an important official from Pretoria. He gave us two examples of independent states who were rejected by some of the powers of the world for many years. Take for example Red China, Red China was not recognized by the United States of America for about 24 years, but it did not mean that Red Chinese state was obliterated from the face of the earth. In fact, for all I know Communist China was not a member of the United Nations, for many years. So all we are concerned with is to formulate our own foreign policy which will not be determined by the attitude of Red China or of Tanzania or that of Mr Ncokazi's DP. With those words, Mr Chairman, I support the amendment to the motion of no confidence .
Yesterday we were faced with one Opposition in this House. Today the reality of two Opposition parties cannot be ignored. We cannot pretend that the only party against us on this side of the House is the New Democratic Party. Indeed we have the Democratic Party which lacks a parliamentary leader ought to have been given the name of New Democratic Party, because the old Democratic Party .... MR L. L. MGUDLWA: There is no qualificative word. It is Democratic Party only. MR LUDIDI: Its stand is well known to us. Its leader spelt it out time and again to this House, but the one today - the so-called old Democratic Party of today - has a totally new policy, if indeed it has a policy. Mr Chairman, I have no intention of spelling out to this House the policy of Mr Ncokazi's DP because the leader of the of the New Democratic Party did this for me yesterday, but since the amendment refers to this old DP I will make reference to it. I wish to point out to this House that they deserve to be treated in a peculiar way since they are a peculiar lot. We all know that their attributes are as follows: In my view they are revolutionaries. The leader of this new party, which is the old Democratic Party, was reported to have said the days of the white man are numbered in this country - South Africa. Hon members, we are now approaching independence and we have got to be serious. MR MGUDLWA: Where is the Constitution? MR LUDIDI: What were the political implications of that statement? To me the statement obviously smells of blood and to any political scientist would portray a violent and bloody involvement. Mr Chairman, such a statement can easily submerge a state in social upheaval and revolution in a corrosive and explosive situation. If we think of them, we think of a movement whose intention is to obstruct law and nobody is to blame for this but themselves. Again, Mr Chairman, they are an unparliamentary group though, of course, they have members sitting in this House now. In other words, Mr Chairman, they do not regard this parliament and therefore their intention is to operate outside the Transkeian Constitution which established this parliament, hence their leader, who is outside this House, has very often referred to the Transkeian Legislative Assembly as a pseudo parliament. Mr Chairman, is this statement not full of contempt? The Constitution Act, clause 9, reads as follows: "The executive government of the Transkei in regard to all matters in respect of which the Legislative Assembly is empowered to make laws by virtue of the provisions of this Act shall vest in a Cabinet constituted as hereinafter prescribed." I feel, Mr Chairman, people who are making statements have got to think before they issue those statements. This House was instituted in terms of an Act of Parliament and therefore it cannot be referred to as a pseudo parliament. The fact that these laws which we make in this House are ratified by the State President of the Republic does not mean we are a pseudo parliament, because those laws, after they have received the signature of the State President, operate, and effectively too. Therefore, Mr Chairman, it is also obvious that this so-called Democratic Party will not respect the laws made by this parliament. It is therefore natural for the Government of the Transkei to suspect this political pressure group of their intention to obstruct the operation of the law. It is also natural that this House should empower the Government to safeguard our dignity, to ensure that peace and order are maintained, to ensure that any attempt to obstruct the administration of the State of the Transkei should be dealt with. Since the amendment seeks power in this direction I am sure hon members who participated in the making of these laws will give the power sought in the amendment. Turning to the New Democratic Party, with regard to the policy of this party I regret that I have to say aught on multi-racialism. Let it be clear that this side of the House rejects multiracialism as a policy. Multiracialism as a concept of political science denotes a political community a heterogenous society consisting of divergent races. "Multi" means many as we know, and ' racialism' is coined from the noun "race", therefore multiracialism as a policy would mean a policy whose main aim of concern would be to cater for the interests
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ster please write his question down. He should write all his questions and I will answer them later. How can we accept independence when we are claiming the whole of the Republic? The Blacks of this country will have only 13% of the land whilst the Whites occupy 78%. Do you think we can trust such a Government? We don't yet know what its policy for independence will be. ACTG C/MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, the hon member must know what he is saying. He must not say the policy for independence. We have no policy for independence. CHIEF MABANDLA: Mr Chairman, we cannot trust this Government because we shall have to have passports just to cross over to Maclear in our own country. ACTG C/MINISTER : Every independent country has to have passports. When will you know that? You know nothing about international politics. CHIEF MABANDLA: How can we have confidence in this Government? To quote an instance, Soweto could be the whole of the Transkei as far as population goes and this Government accepts that the privileges of the people in the Transkei will not be like the privileges of people in the rest of the country. Take education, for instance. We are not very clear about what the Government is doing in regard to education. There is a High and there are School - the Jongilizwe High School only two teachers in that school. The third one is not a working teacher. (Interjections) How can two teachers teach at a high school? Do you except us to have confidence in such an organization? Mr Chairman, this Government must explain to us what its policy is. We have long been telling you this. You have adopted the white people's policy of separate development. This was handed over to you by the Republican Government. All the laws make the people suffer are made in the House of Assembly in Cape Town. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: I will ask the Acting Chief Minister to render justice to the speaker, please. CHIEF MABANDLA : I will go on to show you we cannot have confidence in this Government. The Government adopts a threatening attitude towards the members ACTG C/MINISTER: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, will the hon member render justice to us, too, by telling the truth. Nobody ever said they must not talk or they will be arrested. What we are against is the influence of Communists in the Transkei and in this House, and we will always be against it. CHIEF MABANDLA: I shall continue, Mr Chairman. Our land is South Africa as a whole. You are getting us out of this very land and placing us in this small area. The whole area is being controlled by the XDC , which is part of the Republican Government, and it is being used by the Bantu Trust. All trade is under the XDC, transport is under the XDC. How can we trust such a Government? This Government has accepted the idea of giving all the good land to the white people and the Transkeians are given barren land. How can we trust such a Government? I interpret the XDC as Xhosa Destruction Corporation. (Laughter) Many of our people have suffered under this corporation and many have lost their money in the shops owned by this XDC. There was discussion some time ago that the XDC should be abolished here, but nothing has been done yet. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. CHIEF MABANDLA: Mr Chairman, I shall continue. I have already said this Government threatens people. You can see it because people are being silenced already. Every independent country has to have a defence force and I want to advise this Government of something. This is what happened in Lesotho. ACTG C/MINISTER : You are going to be enlisted in the army. (Laughter) CHIEF MABANDLA: We saw what happened in Lesotho because of government policy. The king was arrested and all the people who opposed the Government were arrested. We had better be careful that this Government does not arrest us in the same way. The leader of this House, the Deputy Chief Minister, said in this House that they were making demands without bloodshed. We know that and we have to discuss these things. How often have we asked you to release all the
The debate was adjourned, The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 25 March 1976. THURSDAY, 25 MARCH 1976 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS CHAIRMAN: Hon members, the hon the Leader of the Opposition has indicated that he will not be available at this morning's session because he has an interview with some international visitors from overseas I shall call upon the Secretary to read a letter which has been received from an hon member for Engcobo. SECRETARY: The letter reads: "Honourable Chairman, I have the honour to inform you that I am now leaving the Democratic Party in order that I shall be an independent member of this House Signed, Acting Chief Mdanjelwa Mtirara. " TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS M/AGRICULTURE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I lay upon the table Government Notice No 132 of 5 December 1975 dealing with the Animal Diseases and Parasites Act, 1956: Regulations and Application in the Transkei. NOTICES OF MOTION 15. Mr M. P. Ludidi gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of approaching the South African Government with a view to obtaining an undertaking from the latter to construct at its expense within a specified time, the following rail links: (a) Between Umtata and Kokstad; and (b) Rail links from the railway line contemplated in (a) with towns and villages situated parallel to the rail link in (a).” 16. Mr N. Jafta gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government be requested to erect sub post offices at strategic places in the Administrative Areas in the Transkei." 17. Mr N. Jafta gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government be requested to change the system of yearly examinations of school children and give them a pass mark according to the quarterly test marks." NO CONFIDENCE CHAIRMAN: Hon members, it is my feeling that in order to balance the debates in connection with this noconfidence motion we should share the debate as follows :- I suggest that two successive speakers should come from the Government side and one from the other side. I shall therefore call upon a speaker from the Opposition side. The debate was resumed. CHIEF G M MABANDLA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support the motion that we have no confidence in this Government. This Government in the first place is pressing us with the coming independence, but this independence has not been clearly explained to us up to now. It has been said it will be a nonracial state but how can we involve ourselves in discussing this thing which has no Constitution as yet. ACTO C/MINISTER: What has policy to do with the Constitution of a country? CHIEF MABANDLA:Mr Chairman, will you please help us in regard to these interjections? I will ask the question ACTG C/MINISTER : formally. What has a policy to do with the Constitution of a country, because a Constitution is not built on the policy of a governing party? CHIEF MABANDLA: Mr Chairman, I will ask the hon Minister to put his question in writing. (Laughter) I was still involved in the actions of this Government. What has this Government done in connection with transport, for instance, on its coming independence? What are the freedom rights they are talking about? ACTG C/MINISTER: On a point of order, Mr Chairman. What freedom rights do you want to know before you pass on to something else? CHIEF MABANDLA: Will the hon Minister Mini23.
prisoners of the Republican Government on Robben Island? ACTG C/MINISTER: Leave that to us. CHIEF MABANDLA: Why have you neglected them now that you are getting independence? What sort of leaders are you that you abandon all our other leaders? The blood of your own brothers was shed at Sharpeville. How can you trust a Government that does nothing about them? This Government keeps on telling us we have been told we shall never get to Cape Town parliament except over the dead bodies of the white man. As this state will be a nonracial state, will there be any racial discrimination when we assemble again in our parliament? What you have made clear to us is that we shall all,be equal. Will all other races be admitted to this parliament? ACTG C/MINISTER: That is axiomatic, if you understand what I mean. CHIEF MABANDLA: Mr Chairman, the chiefs are not supposed to sit with the people. We have so often demanded that the chiefs should be placed in an upper house and the members of the lower house should be elected by the people. The upper house is the place for the chiefs to discuss their own business. The people can discuss things and bring them to the chiefs. It is not right that ordinary people should discuss matters with the chiefs. Don't the chiefs trust the people? ACTG C/MINISTER: All the people of Tsolo are this side. CHIEF MABANDLA: People can be anywhere. All we are trying to do is to get away from separate development and you are using the colour bar system to retain it. Why does this Government not come over to the Democratic Party? How can we have confidence in a Government like that? Members of the House are supposed to talk, but chiefs never talk. They leave it to the elected members. Members of Parliament should have freedom of speech.
recognized. He said when he was speaking the other day here it was an open question (I am quoting him verbatim) whether the Government would manage to run an independent Transkei. Mr Chairman, I am tempted to ask who can redeem a gentleman like this who has lost faith in himself and he has lost faith in his people. What can we do about him? I would suggest such a gentleman must be left, like his party, in a deepfreezer. He has sold his soul; he has sold his land; he has sold his body; he has sold himself to the myth of multiracialism. Hon members of this House will recall that I have said repeatedly in the past that as far as a black man is concerned multiracialism is unacceptable as long as it means that a white man in the so-called multiracial state is virtually a top dog when the black man is an underdog. I would like the leader of the NDP to understand and come to terms with the realities of a practical situation. The biggest problem today in the African continent is that African people are becoming nationalistic minded, so nationalistic minded that they feel the only thing that is going to help the problems of this continent is black majority rule, not multiracialism. Those of you who have been listening for a couple of days or so to the news will have heard that in America they are recognizing that in the African continent the pattern in politics will be black majority rule, even in South Africa, yet you still have people believing in the myth of multiracialism. You still have a leader of a party telling his people that they must believe in multiracialism. In practical terms we have seen our people living in ghettoes, living in slums, receiving starvation wages in a multiracial society. We have seen our people in a multiracial society segregated from such a society. So far as we are concerned, we still believe, and in moderate terms, that black majority rule is an -and extreme view. What the Transkei is going to do — nobody is going to stop it after independence - the Transkei is going to be free to have unison with other African states, South Africa included. To us it is something which is very easy to have the United States of Africa, but not multiracialism. Let me warn the hon leader of the NDP that in the independent Transkei we shall not tolerate the wasting of precious hours in this House when a man is telling us about the virtues of a multiracial society and also the vices of separate development. We are not going to be patient about that sort of thing and no amount of masquerading themselves, forming a new party whereas they are remaining in their old clothing, is going to help. All we want is that they must have a way of new thinking - a new outlook as far as our affairs are concerned. He has told us about the importance of the so-called Bill of Rights. I don't want to say much about this because the hon the Minister of Justice has already said something about it, but I would say to the hon members of this House, and they should understand this important fact - the Government of the Transkei has no moral or even legal obligation towards the white people because they have a strong government the Government of the Republic of South Africa. They have the monopoly of the wealth of this country. Why should we be bothered about a so-called Bill of Rights? We are not going to do it. We are not going to have our Constitution embodying the so-called Bill of Rights. Another fact to which he has made reference is that the Government must hold a referendum to get the mandate of the people of the Transkei if the people of the Transkei want independence. The trouble with him is that he has not travelled all over the countryside so that he knows the views of the people. Those of us who have been moving all over the country for the last five months, talking to people, holding a series of meetings, know what is in the people's minds about the forthcoming independence of the Transkei. We are not going to worry about people who know nothing about what the people want and we can never be called upon to have a referendum to find out the wishes of people who are already in favour. All the people of the Transkei were visited. The idea of independence for the Transkei on 26 October 1976 is fascinating and exciting to them. In regard to the independence of the Transkei so far as they are concerned it is the fullest expression of their national aspirations, so there is no need for any referendum. Apart from that fact the hon the Chief Minister has taken pains in asking information from the various societies in the country. I was shocked when
M/EDUCATION: Mr Chairman and hon members, I want to say I support the amendment led by the hon the Minister of Justice, that this House has full confidence in the leadership of the State of the Transkei Republic, and whilst I am doing so, Mr Chairman, I want at the same time to help this House a bit about what I consider as a disturbing influence. I am told there is a certain Mr Ncokazi. I don't know who this strange person is but I am told this gentleman is around the House. MR L L MGUDLWA: He is no stranger than yourself in comparison. M/EDUCATION: To me he is a strange creature because we were told in the Press and even in the media that this gentleman was a leader of a Democratic Party. MR MGUDLWA: He is a leader, for your information, and he is not a creature but a human being. M/EDUCATION: I am told this gentleman has a reputation of high-jacking the leadership of a party. I take this opportunity, Mr Chairman, of warning this gentleman that so far as a ship which is carrying the people of the Transkei to the glittering gates of freedom is concerned, it will not be highjacked by this Mr Ncokazi. Our ship carrying people to the glittering gates of freedom has missiles around it so that we will shoot him on the spot if he is interfering with this ship. For that matter, we are crack shots and good marksmen. In any case, why is he not coming down to lead his party in the House? That is all I can say about this gentleman. I am quoting here from a paper which for years has been critical of the constitutional development of the Transkei and I dare say if the leader of the New Democratic Party was aware of the article in this paper he might never have ventured to stand here and say he has no confidence in the Government. "The Transkei's Opposition collapsed last week, leaving Paramount Chief Kaiser Matanzima triumphantly in charge." This paper goes further and I am going to quote from this paper in extenso: "The crash of the Democratic Party, the oldest and once most representative in the Transkei forum is sent one-third of its members scuttling across the parliamentary floor to the foot of Kaizer's throne. For Chief Matanzima it should be all plain sailing.” Yet the leader of the New Democratic Party has the temerity of standing in this House telling this House, as he has been doing for decades, that he has no confidence in a Government which is being internationally
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the hon the leader of the New Democratic Party was sceptical about the arrangements being made by our Government, e.g. in training our men in foreign missions and in diplomatic services. Mr Chairman, one would have thought that it is a step in the right direc the formulation of a foreign policy. As a matter tion of fact, this policy that is the foreign policy which is being formulated by our Government is going to help even the Doubting Thomases internationally about the position of our country, because these ambassadors are going to sell our policy and they are going to convince the world that is toughening against South Africa. One would have expected the leader of the NDP to have commented favourably on the domestic policy of the Government, which domestic policy is characterized by economic stability and political stability. One would have expected him, if he was objecting, to make a comment on how funds by this Government for the last twelve years are being used. Nobody can doubt that the funds of this Government have been so judiciously used that there has been no occasion in the past when our civil servants went away without being paid. At the same time, Mr Chairman, one would have loved to listen to the leader of the New Democratic Party making a comment on the attempt which is being made by the Government to woo the people of the Ciskei so that amalgamation, which is wanted by everybody except the leaders over there, can take place. One would have expected the hon the Leader of the Opposition to have made a comment on that because that is a commendable action. In any event, who can dispute the fact that we have one Commissioner-General for the two territories, which is a clear indication that so far as the Republic of South Africa is concerned it accepts that these two territories will come together. The hon the Leader of the Opposition evaded lots of questions, one of which, came from the hon member for Tabankulu. This hon member for Tabankulu wanted to know from him: Do you want independence? He never replied either confirmatively or negatively. I think it was understandable because all the twelve years past this gentleman has wasted our time telling us about getting to the white parliament in Cape Town and he never tells us anything about the feasibility of this idea. In any case, Mr Chairman, the hour of reckoning has come. The independence of the Transkei is coming. The decision which has been made by this Government to have this constitutional change coming is irrevocable. CHIEF D D P NDAMASE: Mr Chairman and hon members, it is a pitiful sight to see small boys playing and when one is knocked down he is flogged even though he is already on the ground. Some people will be surprised to see me standing on the Government side. The reason why we joined the ruling party is because we also desired that we should obtain independence. Furthermore, it is the intention of this party to follow a policy of nonracialism. Those people who do not want independence should not have taken part in selfgovernment, because self-government aims at independence. GOVT MEMBERS: Hear, hear.
are territorial federations. How can this happen in South Africa that there should be a racial federation? Is there any sense in those who desire that we should remain as we are? Are they satisfied with the migratory labour system? Are they satisfied with job reservation? This is what is meant by job reservation ·- that certain jobs are entirely reserved for special people. In this country of ours which is ruled by the minority, is it possible that job reservation can be done away with? Are they satisfied with the conditions of the Industrial Conciliation Act? Are they satisfied with the pass regulations which have resulted in the payment of huge fines by our people who do not possess such documents? Are they satisfied when they compare the scale of payment for equally educated white and black people, where a white man is paid at the rate of 100 % and a black man at the rate of 50%. Are they satisfied with the Bantu Education Act of 1951 where a black person is not allowed to have national education, whereas such education is enjoyed by the white people? Are they satisfied with the Trust and Land Act of 1936 which confines the black man in his own country to only 13% of the land? And what about the Urban Areas Act? Are they satisfied with its terms? Are they satisfied with the Group Areas Act which confines a black man and allows another race to live where he likes? When these people are put in these confined areas they can easily be persuaded to quarrel. Some may question where the Transkei will obtain revenue when it is independent. There are other states which have a lower income than the Transkei will have after independence. I would point out that Mozambique recently became independent and money is no problem. I don't say such conditions will exist in the Transkei. I don't say either that we should be independent because we can get assistance from other countries. During the year 1963 we were given self-government and immediately a proclamation was issued indicating that we were not entitled to any minerals found in this country. Is it not minerals which encourage a nation to grow? Yet the Republican Government saw to it that our progress should be hampered. In the Insizwe range there are deposits of copper and nickel and if such minerals are mined it would enable the Transkei to trade with other countries. If these mines were opened up before independence would we have this migratory process of people leaving the Transkei for the mines in Johannesburg? After independence would the Transkei not have the privilege of working their own mines which they could develop, and all these labourers would enjoy the privilege of attending to their domestic affairs during the weekends? Agriculturally the Transkei is fertile but what our people lack is the knowledge of how to use the land efficiently so that it would be unnecessary to import agricultural products from the Free State and other areas. The land area of Holland is far smaller than that of the Transkei , but their population is greater than ours and yet they can maintain themselves on their land. Their land is covered with snow for almost half the year which means they can only use the land for only half the year. On the other hand the Transkei could use the land right through the year if the people knew how to use it properly. We would then be in a position to raise money so that the Transkei would be financially independent. Some people believe that the achievement of independence will involve bloodshed. Let me put a homely example. Suppose I ask Mr Madikizela who is sitting next to me for small article, such as the tie he is wearing, and he gives it to me willingly. Would it be necessary for me to flog him in order to make him give me this tie? Did you not hear Mr Vorster and Mr Botha say that those homelands which want independence will be granted independence ? If the Transkei asks for independence would the Republic not say, when asked by the outside world why these people had not been given their independence : We made them an offer but they folded their arms and did not accept the offer. Almost all the races in North Africa asked for independence. I know of no country which fought for its independence. What happened in Angola was that the Angolans were told they could have their independence, but instead these people fought amongst themselves. Similarly, if you throw a lump of meat at the dogs they will rush and fight for it. It was only in America that I know there was a fight for independence. Even after that they were created as independent states,
CHIEF NDAMASE: If they would read the report of the Commission of 1881 they would find it stated there that up till 1836 our forefathers were totally independent. The white people arrived here about that time and because they were destitute they tried to make a living amongst us. It was then that the black people lost their independence. Let me first speak about independence. Some people maintain that when we asked for independence we only referred to this small area of the Transkei. Here we are gathered today there are chiefs and elders of the administrative areas. If any resident acquires a land, does he first obtain a large allotment or does he first obtain a small allotment and, after he has laboured on that allotment, apply for a larger piece of land? Are there no signs as we are now talking that the Transkei is increasing in dimension? Is there no possibility that if the Transkei comes into agreement with other homelands that the territory may expand further? Some people speak of federation. When you speak of federation it must be realised that federation can only be achieved after the different homelands have acquired independence. Some say they want racial federation, but I have never heard of such a thing. In America, in Switzerland , in Australia there 25.
of necessity that all the men to whom I have referred should be liberated. CHIEF G B SIYABALALA: A question, please, Mr Charman. Does the hon member for Mqanduli know what we are now discussing, or is the Government in which he has no confidence the Leader of the Opposition? (Laughter) MR NKOSIYANE: If you want a reply, please put your question in writing. We have been told about an army for the Transkei and yet there are people who joined the army to fight for this freedom. Nothing is done for them and they don't even receive pensions. Some are in rags. How can we have confidence in this Government? Why is it demanded that our sons should join the army and yet nothing was done for us who fought in the last war? The white people usually make provision for their soldiers. What provision has been made for our sons? Our children are protected by the BESL, the British Empire Service League. What provision have you made for our children as we have not been provided for? If this is a proper army the children who are in that army should have the necessary protection. For that reason we say the Government cannot be trusted. What provision has been made for the soldiers who fought in the 1939/1945 war - the Second World War? You will know that some of those soldiers died in the war and no provision has been made for their widows. We have no confidence in this Government and I hope the Government has heard me. There is something which surprises me in this House. In all partliaments there are different parties, such as the National Party, United Party and Progressives, but in this House a party has been created which is known as the New Democratic Party. If the Government does not know what road to take then we know what steps to take. We know we should go to the electorate and tell them there is a new party which has been so created. The debate was adjourned.
then they met at Philadelphia and came to a decision to inaugurate a federal government so that when one state is in trouble with another state the Federal Government would arbitrate and settle the matter. Let us compare nonracialism with multiracialism. In a nonracial state I take it that people of different categories can be represented in the state. If that is the case can one expect discriminatory laws such as the pass laws? My idea is that multiracialism goes along with a qualified franchise where some people will not have the right to vote. In a non-racial state even a mine labourer will have a right to vote. Such a voter has a share in the making of the laws by which he will be ruled. I think everyone in a nonracial state enjoys equal rights. The people in Rhodesia are not happy on account of the minority rule practised there. If we accept multiracialism we will show that we don't want equality. MR P N NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up in support of the motion that we have no confidence in the Government. MR KG NOTA: Don't you mean in the Opposition? MR NKOSIYANE: We are talking now under separate development and this policy has brought all the trouble upon us. Under separate development the laws were made by parliament in Cape Town. These laws were harsh and they were laws we do not understand. They were made by one nation for a different nation. When this separate development was brought it gave birth to its child - an animal - and everyone knows where this animal comes from. It was said that this animal was a law to stop terrorism and the name given to it is R.400. Then there came a law which compels us to carry passes so that we find it most difficult to go to Johannesburg now that this law is a burden to our sons and daughters. Before the difficulty in which we find ourselves has been removed we are told to go on to another thing, which is called an independent state. We do not know what we are going to meet with in this independence. Today your sons and daughters are in a difficult situation because they find themselves put into a strange wagon. They are told to proceed to Matanzima. We cried for something we did not know and yet now we are suffering pains and torment. To pass on to something else. Today noone is aware of the fact that since 1912 the Africans have been crying for freedom. When we cried for freedom it was not the desire of the people that they should be given a small piece of land and be confined to it. We say today it must be clearly known that we want freedom — the freedom that those people who are today on Robben Island clamoured for (Interjections) I can mention such names as Tambo, Kiwani, Mandela, Honono and others - men who fled from their country and it is our desire that those men should be called back. We do not say we should be told they will come at some future date. In Rhodesia people like Nkomo have been freed. We say those people on Robben Island should be freed so that they can come and hold discussions with us. I have already told you we are the people of Africa and Africa extends as far as Abyssinia and Zimbabwe. Even today the Africans go there when they sing their praises to the Almight. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Hon member, are you dealing with the motion of no confidence in the Government of the Transkei? Please be relevant. MR NKOSIYANE : Yes, Mr Chairman, I am dealing with the motion of no confidence. What I say is that before we get independence those people who have been banned to Robben Island and those people who fled from South Africa should be recalled. This Government should have mercy because in the Bible it says that all those who have done wrong should be forgiven. Even in the Republic there is a white man who committed a bigger offence than Mandela and the others. I refer to Mr Cohen. Mr Cohen was convicted and sentenced but he was pardoned and freed and he is out of gaol now. These prisoners never killed anybody but were attempting to obtain freedom. These people fought and as a result of their endeavours we obtained this parliament. We appeal to the Government to free these people and bring them back so that we can hold discussions with them. Even if they had some material thoughts they will leave those feelings behind when we hold these talks. They were going for freedom and it is a matter
AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the motion of no confidence was resumed. MR P N NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I was still expounding something about the hon member for Mqanduli, Mr Guzana. He was a respected man elected by the people of Mqanduli and he was a member of the Democratic Party. Today in this House he has created a New Democratic Party. (Laughter) The most untrustworthy man has accepted him in this House, although the Government is aware of the fact that Mr Guzana was fired from the leadership by a conference of the Democratic Party. The Government does not take the trouble to find out from Mr Guzana whether he will form a new party of seven people or whether he has any following. For that reason we say we have no confidence in this Government. CHIEF SC JOJO: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, this hon member himself is dressed because of this Government. How can he say he has no confidence in this Government. CHAIRMAN : Order, please, hon member. MR NKOSIYANE : This Government consulted with about eight other homeland governments and they agreed on certain things. Today I do not know what is going on because without consulting with those officers this Government is now prepared to accept independence. What about the decision that was made that noone would ask for independence separately? These authorities well knew that if anyone among them applied separately for independence no-one would entertain such an application. Take the OAU and UNO and that which is protecting the English-speaking people - the organization known as the Commonwealth of Nations. The Commonwealth would not accept such an independent state. Now they want independence and we will never go anywhere. Does it mean we will have to remain by ourselves? Wherever has an independent state been isolated without joining the United Nations? That independent state then becomes a member of a certain union so that the independent state may be protected whenever anything happens. When you are independent any country will be able to march its forces against you. Who will protect us, because we are a small country and our independent state cannot protect itself? 26.
CHIEF S S MAJEKE: Mr Chairman and hon members, in supporting the amendment of the Government I wish to say that the Transkei is on the threshold of making big changes in the affairs of the people of
don't want our leader to negotiate with the Republican Government? We all want money here and the leader of our Government wants the money to be raised. You can see it on the order paper here. We want the money to be equal to that of the Whites. I do not know what policies are being followed by the splinter groups over
ei. nskC/MI theAC Tra TG NISTER : Hear, hear. CHIEF MAJEKE : The policy followed by the t Governmen now is accepted by the majority of the Transkeian people. It is obvious to everyone that the leader of the Government party is not only being followed by the masses but is carrying the aspirations of the people of the Transkei to their satisfaction. Who
re .AIRMAN : Hon members, I request these gentletheCH men who have taken the privilege of reading newspapers LA : Mr Chairman and hon W.desM. MRase ist.MADIKIZE to ple members , I stand up to support the amendment to the motion moved by the NDP - namely that they have no confidence in the Government. They attacked the policy of the Government, saying it is not a clear policy. The m t fre does MR not wan ? A: Do you equate freedom UDLW MGedo LL reason why this party and its leader chose to follow this policy is that formerly the black people ruled nce nde h epe wit ind ? nce means the freedom CHIEF MAJEKE : Independe themselves . After they had been under the rule of the s tou ei and irkof the people of the Transk from iniqui Republic for so many years there is not one person some laws of the Government of South Africa. The who is a South African citizen . They are like strangers ism r r has put anothe feathe in the policy of nonracial in their own land, yet people who come to this country ima unt anz zer ef amo . He has Mat Kai Chi cap of Par are allowed a certain period after which they become m d o soned leaders - wh fle fro sea citizens , but as long as you have our colour and have ed s e laws. I refer to Mr Letlaka who was der siv lea gat oppres theher been born in this country you can never become a given an ovation by a big crowd in Qumbu when he said citizen even if you live here for a hundred years. Now that because of the policy of nonracialism followed by Government has decided on its own to hand over the t the Governmen side he had decided to come back and nskei to the black people. It is for that reason Tra the join the Government party. He is now overseas , being that even if you are only given an area equal to one inch trained as a diplomat. The leader of the Government has ve but to accept it. you have no alternati indicated that he will try to negotiate the release of MR K. M. GUZANA : One inch square , I suppose? LA ZE : Our leader has accepted that MR MADIKI ers UDLWA: We asked for that a long iticalLL prison MG polMR offer of the Transkei . He was given this territory because the white people are aware of the different e ago. timCH IEF MAJEKE : Who is then doubting the leaderraces and tribes in the country and they are a multiship of the hon Paramount Chief Kaizer Matanzima? racial country. The blame must not now be put on this Let us give him a chance because he seems to be sure of leader because he does not stick to a multiracial policy. his road. The parties here probably want the same goal What the leader does is only to receive the land so given as the Government party. The methods of attaining the to him. Now he is pointing out the direction and showgoal are not the same. The NDP, to give an example ing us the policy to follow in the Transkei . He is taking of a car, when a man uses only the top gear and does over the land of the Transkei , and secondly he wants not change at all. They continue accelerating the engine to create a nation and forget about racialism. It is for even if the road is bad or muddy or steep, until the that reason he calls his party the Transkeian National engine gives up as I think it has given up now. (LaughIndependence Party. That is what is not wanted by the ter) That is why you have lost a great number of supNDP and the DP. The DP wants to follow a policy of porters. Now, referring to the DP. I will say the DP multiracialism which has not satisfied anybody. Even start by pulling out the choke and putting the gear in the white people are not satisfied with it. If the white extra low. (Laughter) You can imagine what a noise the people were satisfied with multiracialism they should car makes. Naturally the people run away from the car, not have put us aside . They should have encouraged us including those inside like the hon chief who ran away to build a nation. That is why this leader follows a policy of nonracialism, in order to build a nation. For this morning. The car driven by the Government party is. sound and is being driven by a sound driver who that reason most of the people are joining the Governknows when to change his gears and how to change his ment party, because they realise that a nation has to be gears. There is room in this car and he will have built in the Transkei. The DP wanted to ask for rights comfort and protection because the leader is sure of in this country for the people in Cape Town, Pretoria forget, Mr Chairman, I just want the road. Before and Johannesburg . A person who wants something ch ch to touch on the Daily Dispat of last week in whi s ple e peoen should take what he is given. Th t ruling thiot ernm the hon member for Qumbu, Mr Jafta, is reported to . We cann country are the Republican_Gov have denied that the people of Qumbu gave him a fight with the Republican Government because they mandate to join the Government side . This happened have given us a place where we can develop. When the at a meeting at Balasi on 11 March 1976. This gentleAfrikaner people were not satisfied they trekked and man did not attend the meetings I had arranged with found land elsewhere so that when the Union of South the people. In this particular meeting he was highjacked Africa was established they were also regarded as people by the head of the tribal authority. In that meeting the - a united people who had their own land . We are hon member stood up and said "I shall contest the talking here about the Transkei and we cannot leave ed e ect ons e dir hav cti ing you sid on the I and fall ele com our land to someone else . We claim this land as our us to follow." That was the Government side. If he own. There are our chiefs and our leaders who make an k l irm on sic , I wil say he was denies that, Mr Cha every attempt to see that we have this land. There is ion mat on h wit that day. Coming to the questi of amalga reason why we should go and ask for rights elseno ch the Ciskei, the sooner the people of the Ciskei approa e as the DP does. We have to acquire citizenship er wh ion t mat ei men , the of the Transk for amalga the Govern d which we claim to be ours. They tell us about lan on t men ern s t t has better. The reason for tha is tha thi Gov ple in Johannesburg and Durban and so forth. How peo left the black people living in the Republic to remain can we take our chiefs who were born in this country there. It is not interfering with them and calling them to go to places mentioned by other parties to apply for to come here. It does not ask them to obtain citizenship citizenship? When the white man took away this land t certificates like the Governmen of the Ciskei . The we did not fight with him. When the white man now Transkeian Government is wise in that those people says he will give us this land , why must we fight him? who live in the Republic should remain there and That is what the DP says we should do. If it is said we ei nsk r re , hts Tra ir the in mou not and the rig the for cla must go and ask for rights elsewhere, where would we but the leaders of the Ciskei, I understand , are forcing use such rights ? Now this side of the House is trying to ip ates ise nsh ific cert . Tho cert the people to obtain citize n hands with other nations such as the Ciskei which joi ed ficates will surely be endors and they will be told to to have its own independence. We will therefore has leave the Republic and return to the Ciskei , so you can be the first people to do this thing. We will be not see the wisdom of our leader. Our leader, I will repeat, lowing suit. There are also complaints about what fol Mr Chairman, is already doing what you want in conwill happen when we are out of the Republic. When nection with the political prisoners. He wants them all these people in former times were independent what to be released but you do not accept that. Do you think Mr Ncokazi will be able to get these men out if you 27.
did they live on? Why should there be such a fear? Is it the beginning of bad times? Ploughing is being done, but that is insufficient because there are so many people. Those people who cannot make their own living are just like stock which is kept. A man who is lean will go out to find means of livelihood. Do you maintain that as we have been under the white people we will not be able to seek places where we can make a living? If we cannot make a living for ourselves we will have lost our mentality. It is for this reason that I am supporting the amendment that we have to have a place where we should make our own living. Now the people are going to be conscious of the fact that they are Transkeian citizens. You will find that all the people who are under the care of someone else will not bother about their own living. They are just like stock that is kept. The time is ripe for the DP to be told plainly that whoever wants to live should prepare himself to earn a living. The white people followed a policy of "Divide and rule", but only animals should be put into different camps. Our people have now degenerated to a lower standard on that account. It is now essential, that everyone should realise who their leader is and those people who need care should know where they must be kept. We are definitely witnesses of how this policy works under existing conditions. As far as good conduct is concerned we should say there is no person, young or old, who cannot assist their country. It is time for all the people to go around the Transkei and find out what they can do for the Transkei, and as a nation we will then grow. The mistake made by those hon members who today say they do not want independence is that they went out to tell the people they were not clear about the correct meaning of independence. I am not talking about freedom but I am referring to a place where people should stay in order that aynone should be able to go and work for a living. If you want freedom you can go to Cape Town of Johannesburg and ask for it. There is not one parent who is so free that he or she cannot work for their own children. A parent is anxious to see what is eaten by his children at home - not like someone who will go somewhere and acquire a lot of money without working for it and having used that money they have nothing left. Are you facing the truth when you say we must be kept under multiracialism by a white person? I do not want that for a moment. We are going to get many valuable things from our country. The towns are not our property but they belong to the white people. I am now talking about the chiefs who were resident in our land. It is time for people who cannot use the land to hand it over to people who can use it properly. These people will use the land because everything we need we get from the land. We have water with which to produce electricity. We have grass to feed our stock. What else does a man require? I do not see what these parties want. You have been satisfied with the tactics of the white man who, in his desire to get something out of the land, has given you nothing. You have been told of many policies - multiracialism, segregation, apartheid and what not. We are going to remain in this land as we did in former times. I therefore support the amendment. MR S. A. XOBOLOLO : Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to take part in this discussion. This motion contends that the Government is not trustworthy. It is the usual motion moved in all parliaments and I will not be lengthy in my oration. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR XOBOLOLO: I am going to state that I have no confidence in this Government as from the present session. This is my first reason. I hope that in the next Hansard, from page 1 right to the last page nothing will appear but the name of Ncokazi, Ncokazi. (Interjections) We on our side cannot support this motion of no confidence which has been introduced in this House because the motion has been brought in by a person who trusts the Government. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR XOBOLOLO: The mover of the motion has faith in the Government and he, together with the Government, have a certain agreement which is unknown to us as far as procedure is concerned. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Hon members are making a noise and interjecting while the interpretation is taking place.
You are making things difficult for the stenographer. Please let the stenographer hear the interpreter so that she can write everything clearly. MR XOBOLOLO : Mr Chairman, when we opened this session there was something unusual in the procedure and because the motion could not be continued with this House adjourned twice. The recognition of the New Democratic Party in this House will not make us have confidence in this Government. The hon the Chief Minister made an announcement recognizing Mr Guzana as the Leader of the Opposition before Mr Guzana announced his new party. (Interjections) Opposition is created by the people but in this House the Opposition has been altered. Even the ruling party is the decision of the people outside. I will make the following remarks to show why we have no confidence in this Government. This Government has refused to allow people to say whether they want independence or not by holding a referendum. Before the Republic was declared a referendum was held in order that people could indicate whether they accepted the Republic or not and the majority vote was accepted. There was no reason whatsoever why a similar procedure could not be followed in the Transkei. It was done in the district of Glen Grey to allow those people to say whether they desired to come over to the Transkei or not, and yet that could not be followed in a country which had to decide on the question of independence. As I look round the House I see the majority is on the other side, and yet I do not see them looking happy. You will find this session is not like other sessions. MR W. Z. LUFEFENI: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, I would like to ask the hon member whether it is true or not that the hon Mr Jonas and the Minister of Agriculture addressed meetings and the people said they wanted independence. MR XOBOLOLO: I will answer that, Mr Chairman. I was present at the meeting and the hon the Minister of Education preached and preached, but when a question was raised as to whether the people were accepting independence or not they ran away, these two Ministers. They said if the people had not heard them when they were talking they were not going to reply to that question. Mr Chairman, I said I was not going to speak at length. What brings down the standard of the House is that at one time an hon member will be on this side of the House and he will have a lot to say, and the next day he is on the other side of the House and there again he will talk at length. That means that all these members like to preach because ever since they were in this House no-one knows what he has come here to do. It is stated that we are divided into two groups. GOVT MEMBERS: Three. MR XOBOLOLO: It is stated that the are two groups but we have come with a mandate from our conference and yet we are labelled as dissidents. How can these people who have broken away from our party be regarded as the correct party and we who have remained are called dissidents? The hon member for Umtata stated yesterday that this New DP was created by the Government. For that reason I am not in a position to have confidence in this Government. Even this Government does not trust itself as far as the people are concerned because it will not call people to vote for fear of the result, yet it still has Proclamation R400. This Government is isolated although it has made a majority for itself, because it has neglected not only us but the whole community. I do hope that even the majority here will lead astray the very Government itself. Imagine a vote composed of ex officio members! It is for that reason this side has been claiming that the chiefs should be in an upper house. We maintain that the chiefs should stick to their standards of respect and they should not be in a position where a man feels he may one day lose his seat or be ousted. The chiefs retained the respect of the people during the time ofthe white man's rule. Now they are not happy because they have been placed in a position where they do not receive respect. The time is now ripe when we should settle down to think seriously. When you look at the front line you will see that it consists of the cream of the Democratic Party and I hope they will form a true Democratic Party after independence. As far as the amalgamation of the Ciskei and the Transkei is con28.
has dissolved and all these three splinters claimed his blessings. I ask: Were he still around would he have broken away with Mr Ncokazi? I shudder at the mere contemplation of the idea. In modern parlance, the idea is too ghastly to contemplate. Would he have emerged with the New Democratic Party? I doubt it. Would he have identified himself with the governing party? I rather think so. We shall never know the answer to these questions until we meet him in Paradise on the morning of Judgment Day, when we shall hold counsel with him and we ask him to issue a statement to that publication known as the Daily News of Heaven. (Laughter) Some of us say the Democratic Party has outlived its usefulness. We say that the Democratic Party has served its purpose. I quote from the address of the hon the Chief Minister at conference: "We shall enjoy full equality with Whites and Coloureds." I challenge one member of the Democratic Party to find fault with this statement.
cerned, reading from the newspapers it seems that if they don't accept amalgamation the hon the Chief Minister says he will force them. Why is it that when the Government wants something it will always issue some sort of threat? How do you expect amalgamation to take place smoothly if there is always a threat that if they don't wish to amalgamate with the Transkei they will be drawn into it by force? How will an application from the Transkei to join the OAU succeed if they say they will not accept us? Even though we have not yet made such application a statement has already been issued that our application will never be accepted. How can we then have confidence in such a Government? Even though we are a black race there is a question as far as the Transkei joining the OAU is concerned, because the OAU considers that the whole of South Africa belongs to the black people. ACTG C/MINISTER: What have you to do with the OAU? Are you going to be directed by them in your thoughts? MR XOBOLOLO : Even at this stage we want to plead with the Transkeian Government that the people should be consulted by way of a referendum. ACTG C/MINISTER: How are they going to be consulted since they are leaving you? MR XOBOLOLO: If it is said it is only Engcobo that does not want independence I do not think there will be any difficulty for the independent Government. Even now the Government is in the majority, therefore there could be no difficulty in obtaining independence. If anybody says he does not want independence there is no reason why the Government should panic over that, because no one individual can stop independence when the majority wants it. MR R. MADIKIZELA: Mr Chairman and hon members, paradoxically today I rise to speak in support of the amendment to the motion of no confidence. The hon member for Engcobo will forgive me if I do not follow his trend of debate. Before entering into debate, permit me, Sir, to perform two functions, the obligation of which I feel. First of all I wish, on behalf of the hon the Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland and the members from his area, to pledge the full support of the Nyanda region to the Government of the Transkei.
ACTG C/MINISTER: They want to live in inequality. MR MADIKIZELA: We have decided to merge with the governing party and this step we have taken unashamedly and after due consideration. When the motion of independence was mooted in this Chamber in 1972 Chief Poto was visibly perturbed. He called us, the members of Nyanda region : Could we justifiably oppose the call for independence - something for which all his life he worked? But party discipline prevailed and so we opposed independence. In 1972 at the Democratic Party conference at Ncambedlana the delegates from the Nyanda region raised the matter of the independence of the Transkei and expressed themselves in favour of the idea. Acceptance of independence, they maintained, did in no way violate the principles of the party, in no way detracted from policy; but conference did not see eye to eye with us. In 1974 the matter of independence was brought to this House. We of the Nyanda region could not be persuaded to oppose independence, thus to accommodate us an amendment was put in to refer the matter to the people. Even this was not good enough for some of us. My colleague, the hon chief from Ngqeleni, could not be restrained on this issue. He felt so strongly on the subject that he defied party discipline. Well, our wishes were gratified in that the matter of independence was referred to the people of the Transkei. Some of us in the Democratic Party were not satisfied with the manner in which the matter was referred to the people but the fact is that the matter was referred to the people. Some of us are not satisfied with the results returned by the people, but the fact is that the results have been returned and the results show an overwhelming response in favour of the idea of independence for the Transkei - not just the general results for the Transkei , but the overall results from the Nyanda region, the overall results from the constituency of Ngqeleni . For the last several years the terms "multiracialism and nonracialism " have come much into play. Those of us who want independence, those of us who read the same meaning into multi-racialism and nonracialism, felt that the time had come for the two parties to come together since the paths they had been following seemed to converge. We are free to formulate our own definitions of these two terms - multiracialism and nonracialism. This is my definition of multiracialism and I ask hon members to take their pencils and write my definition of multiracialism : Persons of any race shall be free to become citizens of the Transkei if they so wish. This is my definition of nonracialism: Race shall be no bar to any person seeking to become a citizen of the Transkei. CHIEF N. SIBI : Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support the amendment moved by the everybody can see that our Government has the confidence of the people. I will be very brief but I will make a few remarks to prove that we have confidence in this Government. Firstly, the Government bought farms to increase the area in which our people reside. One other improvement made by the Government is that they are buying all the trading stations and handing them over to the black people of the Transkei. Some hon members may not be impressed by the remarks I am making, but I appeal to them to give them a hearing. Deputy Chief Minister. According to the amendment You will be aware that the Government has increased
GOVT MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR MADIKIZELA: Secondly, Sir, permit me to pay tribute to the hon members ranged on my right men with whom for many years I shared a cordial relationship. I will begin with the hon member for Mqanduli. We enjoyed his leadership of the Democratic Party while it lasted. Often in this Chamber during his absence I acted as his unofficial deputy. Never once did I hear him reproach me for overreaching the mark. Never once did he reproach me for understating the case for the Democratic Party that we once were. Through you, Sir, I wish to say to him: Thank you. The hon member for Willowvale is away, who served in the capacity of Chief Whip for the Democratic Party, but I hope my sentiments will be conveyed to him. He lives further from Umtata than I do and he was often unavoidably late. In the circumstances I also acted for him, reshuffled his team for him, and he never complained. He never called me interfering. The hon member for Qumbu, Mr Jafta, always a willing horse a man ready at all times to be harnessed for debate, a true friend. The hon member for Mount Fletcher, Mr Zibi we have had many heart-to-heart talks together on just about every topic on earth. The hon member for Qumbu, Chief Majeke, served as chairman of the Democratic Party for many years. In the House he sat next to me. In the absence of the hon member for Mqanduli I was often called upon to consult with Chief Majeke, seek advice from him as to what to do. He gave advice and I took advice. He gave advice, I did not take his advice; but he never felt hurt. To all the members of the Democratic Party, one and all, I say "Thank you for the political association we shared together." Farewell, brothers, farewell. I trust that with the ticket you hold you may be able to survive the next general election. Mr Chairman, the Democratic Party has disintegrated. Out of the debris resulting therefrom three splinters emerge - the Ncokazi faction, the New Democratic Party and those of us who have decided to merge with Government party. Chief Poto's party
29.
the amount paid to old-age pensioners and that is another improvement. We are very happy about this increment because this helps our people to attend to their needs. MR K. M. GUZANA: Does anybody have a cut out of this?
policy at all. We were told, among other things, that separate development did not mean discrimination rather, apartheid had no discrimination. The basic a principle of separate development is discrimination policy that has not only sought to divide white and black but has divided black from black and, further, tribe from tribe. Today we have nine Stans and these are based on the policy of separate development on the grounds of ethnic groups. But it goes even further to establish two Stans in what was known as the Cape Province, both belonging to one ethnic group. These are the Ciskei and the Transkei. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Order please. MR ZIBI: What I am driving at, hon member, is that the Stan should have been one on the grounds of separate development based on ethnic groups. This policy has brought about unrest in certain regions. I refer to the Maluti region. They say the trouble there is perhaps as a result of this policy and if you do read properly in the press you know what happened when Herschel and Lady Frere were changed over to the Transkei. There were those jackals who took a mean advantage of people who did not understand and told them if they went over to the Transkei such-and-such a thing would happen, but if they remained in the Ciskei things would be all right. You will have heard of the sufferings of innocent people due to one thing - that separate development was dividing Xhosa from Xhosa, Ciskei from the Transkei, when it should have been at least one Bantustan on the principle of apartheid. The hon the Chief Minister has now told us that he has exchanged the policy of apartheid for the policy of nonracialism , and indeed it was consoling news pleasing news, gratifying news - to hear that the funeral of the policy of separate development is set for 26 October in the Transkei and that it would go down six feet deep and no more. A policy so nefarious, so wicked, so iniquitous that I believe the devil himself feels it stinks in his nose - let alone the Great God. Now, look at nonracialism as a policy. The hon member for Ngqeleni said yesterday that everyone of us had the right to define this policy as he saw fit. My knowledge of that policy is that it is a policy for all and sundry without consideration of race, colour or creed, so that as citizens of an independent Transkei, however multiracial we may be, as citizens of the Transkei there will be one law. There will be no separate law for a Coloured, no separate law for a Pondo, for Tembu, for an Afrikaner and perhaps for a Jew. But the question immediately arises: What is going to happen to the aristocratic institution of our chiefs? What is going to happen to measures such as Proclamation R400? (Interjections) I am thinking in terms of some people who will be living in the towns, who perhaps may still have homes in the country. If that Proclamation R400 is to continue operating it means some provision must be made for that proclamation to operate in the towns as well, if we are really to have a nonracial policy. What is going to happen? Are we going to allow mayors of these towns to use Proclamation R400 against the people who live in towns? In any event, rather than apartheid one would sooner countenance this nonracial policy. It has been said here that we on this side are perpetuating the status quo in the country. The truth is that the Republic of South Africa, as well as the Transkei, is a multiracial state but in this country there has never been a multiracial government. It has always been a matter of a white minority governing the country since the arrival of the white people in this country. MR K. G. NOTA: That's right. MR ZIBI : That is why our leaders have struggled to get to Cape Town for perhaps what would have been a multiracial parliament -- leaders who have left the country, leaders who today are on Robben Island. They were dissatisfied with the set-up because it was not a multiracial parliament, hence I say it is unfair to say that we advocate the maintenance of the status quo. That is why we have men of political merit, men of recognition , outside the country. Some of them are up north, some in Europe and some of them are on Robben Island. It was the principle of a parliament to which all races would be admitted. Today we hear Ministers of Bantustan states coming out in the press, saying: Don't worry about the prisoners on. Robben Island because there are no Ciskeians there. (Interjections) Yes, it is true that the coming of independence to the Transkei
CHIEF SIBI: I will also comment on the schools where the Government has helped our children in many ways. In view of all the improvements made by our Government can anyone say he has no confidence in such a Government? I am not a very able speaker but all I can do is to note and comment on all the improvements made by our Government. Our stock breeding has been improved by this Government by the introduction of stud animals. Even the breeding of sheep has been improved by the efforts of this Government, I was with the head of the Agricultural Department yesterday and he promised they were going to obtain the type of breeds that would improve stock production in the Transkei. The Government has promised to buy Swiss goats which will be used in our areas. Can anyone doubt this Government when all these improvements have been brought about by this Government? I will be very brief because even in praying one does not have to say long prayers. That does not mean that is the only way to get to heaven. (Laughter) Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR H. H. ZIBI : Mr Chairman, in view of the time may I crave your indulgence that I start my address tomorrow? CHAIRMAN : In that case an hon Minister should move the adjournment of the House. The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a m on Friday, 26 March 1976. FRIDAY, 26 MARCH 1976 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
NOTICES OF MOTION
18. Mr. E. V. Ndamase gave notice to move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of building more technical colleges in the Transkei , at least one in each Region as the existing ones cannot always accommodate big numbers of students who wish to enrol." 19. Mr. K. G. Nota gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of raising the means test applicable to old people applying for old age pension from R24,00 to R180,00." NO CONFIDENCE The debate was resumed. MR H. H ZIBI : Mr Chairman and hon members, to start with I have to make my position emphatically clear to all present in this House. I do so in the light of the position of the parties present in this House at the present time. As an elected member for Mount Fletcher I came here on the DP ticket - - the then DP and naturally my own moral principles could never have allowed me to make any change until I had met my electorate fully and received a directive from them as to what next to do in the present circumstances. Coming to the motion before the House - that is, the motion of no confidence in the Government - I have in the past always made it a point to canvass policy and whatever sins might have been committed by the Government over the years. I never like to indulge in attacking personalities and I have become inured to uncalled-for and unfair attacks on me as a personality. (Interjections) I shall not do likewise. You may do so if you like. It was said the other day the discussion was a bit too lofty for my comprehension and, for heaven's sake, nothing is beyond us in this House. To start with, let us go to policy. The hon the Chief Minister has repeatedly told us that he had decided to divorce from the policy of separate development in favour of the policy of nonracialism, and yet the other day we were told in this House that separate development was no 30.
Transkei as a province of the Republic, we consulted is inevitable. We are entering that era in politics at a time when the trend of events in the entire world is a challenge to any thinking man. We are aware of what is happening in the north and those who are interested in knowing politics as they should be known know what countries are communistically inclined and which countries are disposed towards the West. With the Transkei as an independent Transkei , what course have we decided to follow? We will be going into this at a time when , generally speaking, around the Transkei there is a lot of dissatisfaction among the people. MR H. D. MLONYENI : Where? MR ZIBI : I said "generally speaking". I am going to expand. During the twelve years of self-rule we will not be able to deny that the incidence of crime in the form of murder, stock theft and other unpleasant crimes is alarming . The attitude of our civil servants towards the public is disturbing . The position in our schools leaves much to be desired . There is a lack of accommodation and of suitable teachers to man those schools which are available . The question arises : Are we ready to embark on so important and so final a scheme as independenceNYE ? NI : Yes, we are. MR MR MLO ZIBI : It has been said that the Government is supported by the majority of the people of the Transkei . Let us see how the opinion of the people was sounded. Was this opinion from the people not sounded through that, is tribal authorities , the ernment bodiies es gov regional authorit , the Teachers' Association , the Civil Servants' Association , etc? Those are all government
people theMR K. M. GUZANA : When? M/AGRICULTURE : In 1974, and we asked them what their views were concerning the Transkei being independent. The results were overwhelming with their acceptance. Naturally the people who are descendants of the old African people wanted their independence and wanted their land long ago, because they are aware of the consequences when they remained under the Republican Government, and naturally any human being wants to be free ; and when he does not get the independence or freedom he wants, he even attempts revolutionary measures to attain that independence . The result of that would be suicide for all our people. We therefore , as leaders of the Government , are not so stupid as to ple into an inferno . lead our peo t is what you are doing now. MR GUZANA: Tha M/AGRICULTURE : Without any arms, what could be expected other than suicide and mass graves that would each accommodate about 5 000 corpses ? We have indicated that in seven months ' time the people of the Transkei will be free. Can the leader of the New Democratic Party indicate when the Republic of South Africa would grant unqualified franchise to the African people ? For all we know he would never enjoy, nor would his great-grandchildren ever enjoy this . The hon the Leader of theOpposition further asked the question as to whether the people of the Transkei are satisfied that they are going to attain independence. My reply is that it is only slaves who do not want independence , because slaves know no other life. Happiness to him means nothing other than crumbs of bread and leftovers . ZANA: Who is that? MR GU M/AGRICULTURE : The slaves , and those people who do not want independence . To illustrate to this House why it is necessary for a human being to be free and independent, I want to relate an incident which occurred to me personally some time ago. I had entered a certain restaurant in town here and bought a few items for myself, and some cigarettes, and I left. When I was on the threshold of the door the lady in the restaurant - I suppose the wife of the proprietor -g behind me and pushed me outside. I came rushin stumbled and fell. I got up and looked at her .. MR GUZANA:URIEam pleased that happened . M/AGRICULT : The hon member says he is
s) S What tion esVT rjecMB bodi . (InteME ER : GO about the women's s tion niza and the Chamber of Commerce? orga MR ZIBI : If I am a chief and I feel I am respected and I say I want independence , what is your reaction? At times you find in the urban areas such organizations as the UBC, which are supposed to have been sounded , bringing in figures far above the UBC itself , and similarly in the rural areas . The hon chief from Butterworth has perhaps 20 000 people in his area, he calls a meeting and brings back a report that 40 000 have said they want independence when he does not have 40 000 people in his area. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Order , please.u MR ZIBI: I am trying to tell you the correct thing to do. You should hold a referendum and everyone will be satisfied. I appreciate one difficulty, and that is that the Transkei has a population which is not sufficiently literate to have their opinion tested properly, but you have allowed these people , such as they are, to go to the polls to vote for us and therefore I want to say they could still have been tested by way of a referendum . It is the cheap boast of that side of the House that they have the majority in the House , because there are 65 ex officio chiefs in this House and no dog ever bites the hand that feeds it. In regard to the 45 elected members nobody here would deny the fact that there is no chief at present in the Transkei who has no influence over his people . However, I readily concede that there are chiefs who are very fair in politics and they allow their subjects to vote as they like. I have information that there are certain regions where the big bosses tell them that if they don't vote so-and-so and they start looking for a site they will never get one. (Interjections) The position as it is, therefore , does not give you the true picture of things as they are. and hon Chairman CULTURE Mr ersRI mbAG endment that this House has meM/ , I support the: am full confidence in the Government and in doing so I wish to reply to the indictment by the leader of the New Democratic Party that we have excised the Transkei from the Republic of South Africa. I want to say from the outset that for over 300 years , ever since the white man set foot in South Africa, our people have fought for their land and their independence . They lost their land and they lost their independence . The white people ruled the land without consulting the Africans in any way. It is only now that the people have obtained selfrule that they have had any say in their own affairs , and as a sequence to self-rule it was natural that the country should attain its independence . We are therefore very happy that that stage is being reached in October. Unlike the New Democratic Party and the Opposition generally, who state that we must have the
pened. pleased thatZA hap NA : It brought you to your senses . MR GU just looked at M/AGRICULTURE : In my rage her dresses ... (Laughter) S : Why did you do that? MEMBER M/AGRICULTURE : I just looked at her and felt that were it not for the protection of the laws of South Africa and the fact that on that very day would be charged for assaulting her ... So I just left her and said to myself : One day we will be free too. MR GUZANA: Why did you look at the dress instead of looking her? (Laughter) wears dresses . I M/AGRICULTURE : A woman looked at her clothes . Now, in this incident it illustrates aple are subject to — the frustr the condition our peo tion , the unhappiness . Is there any reason, therefore, why our people should not be happy when they gain their independence ? At other times you will find a junior policeman coming into your house , kicking the door open and when you enquire of him what the trouble is he tells you he is looking for a criminal and asks if you have got your reference book on hand. If you haven't got it he asks you to accompany him to the charge office . Those are the things which militate against our people day in, day out, and I wonder if the hon members on the Opposition benches are aware
se things . of some of theNA : Anyway, he comes into your house MR GUZA t ut those who come to your house r abo . Wha sobe nk? ICULTURE : They do not come to my druM/AGR house. The hon the Leader of the Opposition also said he was not impressed by the skyscrapers which indicate the coming independence of the Transkei . These things show the enthusiasm of the people when you hear people talking about the free countries of the world. I wonder what occurs in the minds of some of the Opposition members ? I personally get very depressed. We are not satisfied with being the fourth citizens of
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the country. As a matter of fact, we are not even citizens of South Africa. As you know, all the people who are not white are called non-Whites, and unfortunately for them they have a claim to this land because they were born in this country. If one is not a citizen then what is he or she? That is why our people are so enthusiastic and happy over the news that they will be independent on 26 October. Certainly we will not squeal when we get our independence, because the thought behind the idea that dominated the mind of the hon the Leader of the Opposition when he mentioned this squealing was: Won't the people squeal because they will not receive enough remuneration for their services? MR GUZANA: I never said so. M/AGRICULTURE : You inferred it. MR GUZANA: Don't draw inferences and say that I said what is contained in your inferences. M/AGRICULTURE : In your address you said you could see the shine on the faces of some of the members on the Government side. What did you mean? MR GUZANA : I was referring to the corpulence of some of your members. M/AGRICULTURE: We will certainly not squeal , because our people are used to all kinds of conditions. Some of them are used to one meal a day .. MR GUZANA: Is that the object of independence? M/AGRICULTURE : ... so they will find independence rewarding. MR GUZANA: We will look forward to this one meal a day after independence. (Laughter) M/AGRICULTURE: This is an indication that food is not the only thing and money is not the only thing. MR GUZANA: What else is? It motivated you to join the Government. (Laughter) M/AGRICULTURE : Mr Chairman, I believe that the hon members in the Democratic Party have lost their heads. In fact, whilst people would call for its liquidation MR GUZANA: Why don't you call for it so that we know what is going to happen after independence? because its leadership M/AGRICULTURE : will lead their unsuspecting followers into trouble. I wish to warn some of the members to be careful because this road will lead them into trouble. Seven years ago when our party . MR GUZANA: Thirteen years ago you launched the Democratic Party. M/AGRICULTURE : You have a hope. Did you ever see me in your caucuses or in your house?
further out of step with the thinking of the people. Can you ever think in terms of an instrument which is played by remote control? For the Democratic Party, in my line of thinking, is just like that instrument. A certain Ncokazi seems to be playing the instrument from some sphere and it is not surprising that the music is definitely not good to the ear. Coming back to this question of independence which, as I have said, is something that is the song of the whole of Africa, why is it that even in the Transkei where everybody should be pleased that we are going to be independent, there are these people who feel that the Transkei cannot have what is really a good goal for itself? We have had the same type of argument over the ages about fragmentation and about non-viability. May I remind you a little bit about the history of the Transkei? The Transkei, as far as I know, was named the Transkei as early as the 1890s , long even before the Union of South Africa was formed, long even before we thought in terms of the Republic of South Africa. If we again think of the history of the Transkei, the Transkei is a country which from of old enjoyed independence under the rule of the chiefs. If I think of the Transkei I always feel that, like South West Africa, perhaps it is one of those places which, through the accidents of history, found themselves in the position in which they were. People like to applaud what is happening in other countries, but if the same goal is hoped for in their very own country then they see things differently. The Transkei was handed over to the Union of South Africa without the people having been consulted whatsoever. In other words, I am right in saying it was one of those accidents of history because the people had no chance to protest at the time. Unlike the other homelands of the Republic of South Africa, the Transkei has had experience of a form of government even starting from the days of the Bunga. That factor cannot be ignored. One asks the question: Why was it given a sort of treatment apart? One can only come to the conclusion that it is because it has always been a country joined to, but really apart, from South Africa. That is why I say those people who feel that by the Transkei's seeking independence it will be encouraging, but while they call it fragmentation or Balkanization then those people have got their facts wrong. What is funny about the thinking of people is that they may accept a certain situation in one particular country but if exactly the same thing happens in another country then the thing sounds different. For instance, when Northern Rhodesia broke away from the Federation and became the present Zambia, people applauded the action. Malawi also went its own way. However, the people believe that if these groups of people went their own way then they would help other African countries to fight their cause for independence. I think that the same conclusion might be arrived at as far as the Transkei is concerned. Some people say - I repeat it that the Transkei is a creation of South Africa and that it is so created that South Africa can further its apartheid policies. I somehow feel that some of us will talk until perhaps our throats become dry and our voices hoarse, though we firmly believe that once you leave the baby of apartheid at the door of the Transkei then you have misled the people in regard to that particular child. It is one of the very reasons why we feel in the Transkei that we want independence, for we believe that we are going to have a society where there is going to be no discrimination of any kind. How can a rightthinking person say then that the Transkei is a creation of South Africa? How can a mother create a child that is quite its opposite? MR K. M. GUZANA: Many people make mistakes when they give birth to children. You look at some of the hon members here. (Laughter) M/INTERIOR : Some people are so obsessed with apartheid that they go throwing the word about, leaving it at the wrong door. Certain allegations have been made here, and one of them is that the people were not consulted when it came to the question of independence. Of course, that is the right question to be raised by people who, during the last 13 years, have not been doing their homework. If these people have been moving by themselves and not keeping in touch with their constituencies, the people they are supposed to be leading, then they will say the people have not been consulted. One hon member does not know the pulse of the people in his particular constituency. Some of us
OPPOSITION MEMBER: We saw you at Corana. M/AGRICULTURE : Then you must be lying. (Interjections) When the Transkei National Independence Party was formed many people did not attach any importance to the name of the party. In fact, some doubted the credibility of its leaders. Today, however, everyone is assured that that name had an intrinsic meaning and we will be fulfilling its intentions in a few months' time. I believe that most of the people now are aware of the fact that that name had an intention and it had a meaning. We are indeed happy that this is coming into fruition. Thank you, Mr Chairman. M/INTERIOR: Mr Chairman and hon members, I feel I am going to speak rather at a disadvantage because I missed two days of the debate. However, from the little I have gathered it looks as though we are talking of nothing else but independence. 1976 has been quoted in some quarters as marking a watershed in the affairs of Southern Africa. The decisive importance of 1976 was said to hinge on four points : Angola, Rhodesia, Namibia and the Transkei. Throughout the world in general and in Africa in particular, the swing of events has been towards one goal, and that is the achievement of independence by the African people. Throughout the world and in Africa in particular, the thirst for independence has not only been acknowledged but it has also been encouraged. It comes rather as a small wonder that in this very House controversy is being blazed against independence. It looks as though a small group of people are out of step and not in line with the thinking of Africa as a whole, and I think that it would be murder for the people of the Transkei to suddenly change their minds and accommodate the thinking of a very small group who, as I have said, are out of step. In addition to the people I am talking of there is a group of people (I believe five) who are even
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hon leader of the New Democratic Party is so ignorant of what is happening in the Transkei that he wants me to start educating him. Coming to this question of education again, the Transkeian Government and its Department of Education has made a note of those aspects of its education system which have been lacking and those which have been opened up for the people of the Transkei, and I am positive that if we still allowed a situation whereby we are not going to prepare manpower to come and work in the Transkei work situation, perhaps you think we will not get those people from South Africa but will do nothing about it? Another argument which has been raised is in connection with the economic viability. How many times must people be told that they cannot quote a single country which is not inter-dependent on other countries? However, when it comes to the Transkei it looks as though the Transkei must be the only country, as usually is the pattern of the thinking of these people, which must show signs of unbelievable difference. We just have to look for examples around us. I am sure some of you think we don't have any miners from Mozambique in South Africa these days - let alone places like Lesotho because you believe if they are independent then they must go it alone. The statement by the Government that the Transkeian Government will keep a spirit of neighbourliness with South Africa has also been criticized. There is one distinction which people always fail to draw - that maintaining relationships of good
so know, and that is true of all Government members who keep their finger on the pulse of their constituents, apart from the questionnaires that were sent to various bodies throughout the Transkei. I somehow feel that some of them feel the word "referendum" is going to be a shield behind which to hide when we enjoy independence. As the hon the Minister of Justice has just said, some of them don't even know the meaning of the word. It is just a nice word to use. MR GUZANA: Just like " independence". M/INTERIOR: It is pathetic to find how much some people are enamoured of the idea of being part and parcel of the Republic of South Africa. They are so enamoured that they are even approaching a stage where they are going to lose their souls. Can they really tell us in this House, say in 15 good points, what benefits they will reap from clinging to South Africa till eternity? Some of them, simply because they have had a platform in which to be heard in our Assembly, forget that in the South African situation they will count for absolutely nothing. Simply because they see wonderful things in South Africa they think so little of themselves that they believe they cannot have those things done by them in their very own country. We see chunks of men here (Laughter) who believe in living in perpetual slavery till eternity. Some of them do not see the dignity, the beauty of moulding their own country and making a place for her in the world. They have so lost spirit and courage that they always wait for the white brothers to do things for them. Some of them are not even vesting their hopes in South Africa. Some of them are looking to countries we do not even know, and they hope to bring about a bloodbath in our country. What do they hope to achieve? Perhaps the very people who are behind this will be the first ones to form that bloodbath. Mention was made here that even educationally we are not ready for independence. Funnily enough, I would say the person who feels the pinch of the shoe is always the one who wants to get rid of that shoe, to fit himself where he can be accommodated. After these many years when we still have the type of complaints as were raised by thi hon member, is it not the right thing to leave a situatior which does not improve our lot and hope to mould our own future? It looks, hon members, as though you never make a study of what is happening in countries around us. You have no idea under what standards those people started with when they reached independence and what standards they have reached since then. You will keep on crying for the moon and all the wonders of white South Africa. To quote one country in connection with education, when Tanzania won their independence 14 years ago they had only 100 university graduates, and not about a thousand secondary school-leavers schools, but school-leavers. Can you compare that with the number of our schools and the number of graduates and school-leavers? Can't you see that that is a very good basis on which we are going to seek our independence as against the figures I have just been reading? MR GUZANA: What are the figures for the Transkei?
neighbourliness is not synonymous with interference in domestic affairs, and I wish to correct that doubt in their minds if they still have it, that by maintaining such relations we shall always be exposed to interference in our internal affairs when we do become independent. It is a fact that the Transkei and South Africa are closely intertwined and in many respects overlap. If that is a fact I see nothing wrong in the maintenance of economic ties between the Transkei and the Republic, because no country can claim to be completely economically independent. How many countries of the Third World are worse off than the Transkei ? The only remedy I can prescribe is this: You are going to be part and parcel of the independent Transkei and you must take it from now that you have just got to work hard for the success of the Transkei . It is useless trying to say we are going to be dragged into this independence, which is inevitable. The other thing is that I have never seen people with such an attitude of defeat even before they have seen the Transkei working. You are just like those people who, even before they have seen the Transkei working, are talking in terms of not recognising the Transkei, and I am sure the few who are against independence think they have got allies in those voices which are talking in terms of something which they have never even seen work. If I know the standards by which a country is gauged before it receives recognition, I doubt if the Transkei will find it difficult to fit in with that type of material. Mr Chairman, without speaking at length I want to say that in support of the amendment raised by the hon the Minister of Justice, and I want to add that we have full confidence in the Government and that the Government, which has been keeping its finger on the pulse and keeping in touch with the people through its elected members, knows that it has the full support of all the people of the Transkei. The debate was adjourned.
M/INTERIOR: You can get them from the Educa tion Department because you are a member of parliament for the constituency of Mqanduli. MR GUZANA: I am not going to the Department of Education. I am asking you what the figures are. M/INTERIOR: That is the type of homework you have not been doing. MR GUZANA: You gave the figures for Tanzania, now tell us what they are for the Transkei. M/INTERIOR: You are not conversant with the statistics for the Transkei, and then you come and complain here . . MR GUZANA: You are not completing your comparison, that is the trouble. M/INTERIOR: I have told you -- just go to the Department of Education. That is why I say we are ready for independence, because we are on the level we have reached. MR GUZANA: But you are not willing to tell us what that level is. M/INTERIOR: I am not a walking statistician. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. M/INTERIOR: I will go ahead and I am happy the
AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the motion of no confidence was resumed. MR H. D. MLONYENI : Mr Chairman and hon members, I wish to align myself with the hon members this side who, in their debates, state that this side of the House has full confidence in this Government. In doing so, Sir, I also align myself with the amendment that follows. For a change, Mr Chairman, we have to take the Opposition into perspective and it is my duty to diagnose them. I want to state in the first instance very categorically that the Opposition has dismally failed. Whether they think of themselves as the left party or the right party, neither of them has contributed anything to the vote of no confidence and this side of the House is left with a sorry spectacle as to what next. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: Show us the spectacle of independence. 33.
means of defence is attack, and had the hon the Leader of the Opposition not allowed himself to catalogue what he has given to this House I think I would have closed my mouth. What I am doing here, and I think I am doing this pertinently, is taking point by point the contribution of the hon the Leader of the Opposition. He is very much concerned now about time. How much time has he wasted for the last 13 years? It is a pretence to say that side does not know anything about independence. We have had, in the recess committee preparing for independence, a number of the hon members from that side and I wish to state, Sir, that during our discussions, without a vote, they said yes to everything that was put on the agenda. MR GUZANA: Do you want us to talk about the new Constitution? Tell him to keep quiet, Mr Minister. MR MLONYENI: Yet when they come here, even before they see the Constitution they forestall the debate and say no, no. What temerity to do a thing like that! Now, about multiracialism I want to remind that side that the hon the Minister of Justice said we have accepted nonracialism on this side and please underline that. The reason is because the Transkei will have no discrimination. Let us cross the Kei. Here is a cutting once more. It says: "Don't buy from Whites" ― and that comes from someone across the Kel. In their multiracial society I am wondering whether that side is going to swallow their own words and say the gentleman who said these words is not from their multiracial group. Again, I want to emphasize what the hon the Minister of Justice said, although I have been in this House only since 1973. I quote: "Since parliament opened we have heard the same arguments." And it is the same today. There has been absolutely no change of what the people could listen to and follow from that side. Now, I want to give an illustration and tell a short story about this flirtation with the Whites. It is about a man who had two wives. He was a grey man with black hair. When it came to the evening one wife said: "Baby, I don't like your white hairs. Shall I pull them out?" He said yes and he was left with black hair. The following day the other wife was there. "Oh, love, but I don't like your black hair. Could we have it removed, baby?" (Laughter) "Oh yes, please do ", he said, and so the man was left bald. This characterizes the bioscope we have in front of us. Flirtation with Blacks and Whites is getting no results except frustration. Here is another one that the Opposition will appreciate before we part this weekend. It is no use flirting around. You are going to be hit left and right. A man was beheaded and his body from the neck down was on the one side and his head on the other side, and the moral of the story is this: The man had no head. There was nowhere to stand because the feet were not there and the head was not there, and this is what happens as a summary of the discussions this week and as a contribution from the Opposition side. There is no head and there is no foot on which to stand. Lastly, I want to refer once more to this umbilical cord. There is a great danger because in the umbilical cord there is a dividing line between sense and horse sense . To the questions from that side as to what we are going to do an answer has been given. It is distressing that the Opposition does not seem to concern itself with the news media. Each day they contribute facts here and each day they are contradicted by the Daily Dispatch. What I want to know is: What are we going to get from this flotsam and jetsam of fuddled and befuddled people who have nothing to offer? Now, I should imagine if there was telecommunication between this House and Robben Island, Mandela would have said: "Oh, leave me in peace." But I want to assure Opposition that the hon the Chief Minister in his speech at the Jubilee Hall at the opening of Congress did say that during independence something would be done to bring those men here, and three times before the cock crows these hon gentlemen do not know this. They negate it as though the hon the Chief Minister does nothing, as though he has no sympathy with his people, as though he is a disgrace. Whatever time is left to me I want to pay tribute to what I call Matanzima-ism - a political philosophy that penetrated to the international world, led by a man of indomitable courage and character of whom it could be said: Courage, brother, don't stumble though the path be dark as night. The people will have
MR MLONYENI : I must equate the contribution of the hon the Leader of the Opposition with that of the hon the Minister of Justice. Here was a class of politicians, lawyers and a multiplicity of words in between, and it is no underestimation to say that the hon the Minister of Justice outshone to the extent that none of the Opposition group have countenanced any of his statements, to say nothing of the legal phrases of the hon the Leader of the Opposition. I shall leave that Matanzima group lest it be said of me that we are looking for something else, and I want to put the hon the Leader of the Opposition through a spectrum now. He has tried to criticize the Government for being a partner with the Republic; he has catalogued everything that this side of the House or the Government has done, and for every page in his catalogue there has been no substitution as to what an Opposition's duty is. Instead, this is what we get from this great giant of the English language. As Alexander Pope says : "Words are like leaves; " and this is what we get from this student who was once a scholar in logic. We are dished with his incongrous and fallacious statements purported to be swallowed by dwarfs when he thinks he is a giant, whilst in my own opinion this Lilliputian debate is nothing else but the opposite and I think there is something much more of a dwarf on that side and a giant on this side. Now, let me examine him through this spectrum, and I think as a lawyer not even the Scribes and Pharisees would have said "Hallelujah". He has hardly, in my opinion, opened his case, hardly defended it, and without going far I should say that even in that eclectic summary of his the electorate finds him guilty. Now, my last point on that side is to take the leader of the New Democratic Party as a leader. When the hon member for Mqanduli, the Leader of the Opposition, was in this parliament last time, he said he would be going to America to pray for the erring children. As an immediate reflection I immediately summed up that this was a puerile statement, but because I know what religious fallacies can sometimes do to a person I believed him. Now as a leader who is dubbed a religious man, what has he achieved? His contribution is nothing else but the first chapter of the Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens. To sum it up I should say: Hark, the herald angels sing "Glory to the king." I refer to this King Midas who wants the golden eggs. (Laughter) The hon member from Mount Fletcher has tried to give us an apology for his utterances here, seemingly wooing us that their side is not personal. Now let me quote the hon the Leader of the Opposition in his material concept of his pride and prejudice. He alleges that hon members have come to this parliament because they want butter. I should get him out of this material outlook and lift him higher to the realms of his own religion and concepts of thought - that butter is not an end in itself, but it is a means to existence. Mr Chairman, I want once more to come to some of the points raised by the hon the Leader of the Opposition. He has tried to tell us here that multiracialism is the panacea for his group and on the same day that he uttered these thoughts here there was a newspaper with this heading: "Botha No to mixed schools. " On the same day he tried to criticize the XDC and the angels were on our side as a matter of luck. They are our partisans. (Interjections) Now, I still have two extracts here and I want to ask a question: How could a scholar a student of English - say to a crowd of people inside and outside here: Don't say no to anything that is given you. If this is not the permissive thinking of the present set-up today I want to say to him: "Blow, blow, thou winter wind. Thou art not so unkind as man's ingratitude." (Laughter) I want to come back to this quack once more, because he seems so interested in this umbilical cord. CHAIRMAN: I will request the hon member on the floor to please desist from this improper practice of attacking an individual. MR K. M. GUZANA: Let him carry on, Mr Chairman. He is doing no harm to anyone. MR MLONYENI : Mr Chairman, unaware that by any imputation or any assertion . MR GUZANA: Of terminological inexactitude. (Laughter) MR MLONYENI : any assertion that I am being unparliamentary I want to state that the best
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to respond to the scurrilous reports, utterances and accusations that there has been no referendum here, despite the fact that when Dr Verwoerd went overseas he never discussed anything about a referendum with the Blacks in this country. I would not be surprised if the hon Paramount Chief resigned, like Wilson, before his time because he has done his duty to his people. Posterity will benefit and the smiling beauties on the other side will be like mermaids gyrating with the beat, because they will be sucking the juice and the honey which they once despised. I sit down with the last quotation to that side. They, in their dismal failure, should be content with "Sweet are the uses of adversity" (See Transkei Hansard : From Page 141 6398 G. 1)
The surface area of Lesotho is 30 355 square kilometres and the population is about 1,1 million. Swaziland ---- the surface area is 17 364 square kilometres, the population is about 479 950. The Transkei's surface area is 42 292 square kilometres and the population is more than 1,5 million. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: Why can't you be specific? MR NOTA: The population changes. I was interested in the areas of the land, not in the popula tion in this case, but I was just giving you the popu lation figures as a matter of interest. It is clear, Mr Chairman, that here are two countries - Swaziland and Lesotho -- enjoying independence and they are smaller than the Transkei. That cannot be disputed because I have quoted the figures. How can it be said therefore, that the Transkei cannot be independent because of its size? The second point, Mr Chairman, is that it can never be said that the Transkei is economically interdependent with South Africa because it only offers muscles and brawn. You see, it appears here that the hon the Leader of the Opposition does not recognize our labour as an important commodity. Labour is a principal factor in production, so it cannot be despised. Labour plus land will give you capital, Now, however, the position will not remain like this indefinitely whereby we export labour. Our Government is trying to accelerate economic development in the Transkei. They are working in collaboration with corporations such as the XDC, the Bantu Mining Corporation and others. The Bantu Mining Corporation is to exploit mineral resources in the Transkei; the XDC is erecting factories in Butterworth and leasing them to industrialists at economically realistic terms. It is therefore clear that after the expiry of those periods, if there are Transkeians capable of doing so, they will take over. In the meantime those people are producing commodities for local consumption and for export. Even in agriculture there has been appreciable revenue accruing from tea, coffee and timber, and during the 1974/75 financial year they brought us R2,7 million. How can it be said, therefore, that we will depend on this labour only? We cannot be denied independence simply because our exports are smaller than our imports. This is the trend of things in most of the countries. I know the hon the Leader of the Opposition would accuse me, when I am speaking in favour of the XDC, of getting a loan from them. (Laughter) He said last year: "No sooner does a politician get a loan from the XDC than he jumps on the bandwagon and I come to the conclusion that when you get a loan from the XDC there is an unwritten condition that is not reduced to writing that you must change your politics and know which way to jump." I want to inform the House that in all the businesses of which I am in charge, not one of them ever had a loan from the XDC. Mr Chairman, as I said before, much ground has been canvassed on this subject and I feel I have done my duty and I support the amendment. MR W. S. MBANGA: Mr Chairman and hon members, were it not a ruling from the Chair that we should debate from this side in succession, there would have been no point in our getting up to canvass this point any further. However, one of the qualities of the Government side is patience and perseverance, because for the last twelve years they have been harping on the same lesson in the same way that a kind and persevering mother will attempt to feed a little child whose jaws are clenched together. When they start opening their jaws they bubble as the Opposition is bubbling with interjections. I am standing up to support the Government amendment to the motion by the Opposition leader which proposed that the House has full confidence in the Government. I will go back a few years and remind the House that in actual fact our opposition does not consist of the Opposition in this Chamber. Our real opposition came into being in 1909. At that time a national convention was summoned to the total exclusion of the black man in South Africa. At once everyone could see that the black man was regarded as lower than the level of the lower animals which roamed the farms of the white people in those days, but our Transkeian Government has been quite considerate in allowing this present Opposition to
M K. G. NOTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support the amendment by the hon the Minister of Justice that the House has full confidence in the Government. The hon members of the House will excuse me because too much has been said on this topic. It appears there is going to be a lot of repetition but I will try, however, to move between the lines. I think, Mr Chairman, the Transkeian National Independence Party was clever in accepting the policy or the philosophy of separate development, because this philosophy has led to the de-annexation of the Transkei which was annexed during the 19th century. Now, in this separate Transkei people will follow the policies of their taste. The governing party has already said they will follow a policy of nonracialism. It is clear, therefore, that black majority rule will prevail in the Transkei because the franchise is one man, one vote, and there is no qualification, MR K. M. GUZANA: That's not true. A person has to be 18 at least. MR NOTA: That is obvious. MR GUZANA: It is not obvious MR NOTA: You see, events in Africa have taught us since Africa has been colonized by the Whites that there has never been any sharing of power between Blacks and Whites. The white minorities refused to share the power with the Blacks or to transfer the power from them to the Blacks. What changed the STATUS QUO in Africa was the decision made in Europe by the colonial powers. The French, the British and the Portuguese decided that the Blacks should be given power in Africa. We should mark that the decision was made in Europe. It is just for that reason that Smith, ten years ago, decided to declare Rhodesia independent without the permission of Great Britain, Mr Smith was running away from an obvious decision that England would give the Blacks of Rhodesia power. If Mr Smith with Mr Nkomo had reached an agreement in Rhodesia on whether to share power or to hand power to the Blacks it would be a unique event in the whole of Africa. I say so because in Africa there has never been such a step whereby the white community residing in Africa agreed to hand power over to the Blacks. Now, with that background we have accepted that we should get our own area and exercise our own form of government. I know the Opposition advocates the sharing of power. (Interjections) Yes, the hon member tells me he wants to rule. The strategy of the Opposition is that once it is allowed that we should all have equal franchise with the Whites, the next step is that the Blacks would dominate and form their majority government right throughout the Republic. However, that is difficult to happen because the Whites have already said they would never share power with the Blacks. I have already told this House that nowhere in Africa had that thing happened before and here in South Africa, unfortunately there is no colonial power to take power from the Whites and hand it over to the black majority. Now, I want to reply to some few points raised by the hon the Leader of the Opposition. He said that the Transkei is small. It is like a small pool full of toads. MR GUZANA: I said tadpoles. MR NOTA: Well, in reply to this point I want to take two examples and quote figures of the two countries which are nextdoor to us. The examples are Lesotho and Swaziland. I hope the hon members of the House will note and take down these figures.
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against what has already been achieved against worse odds. The Transkei occupies a unique position in the black territories in South Africa. Most people regard the Transkei as one of the homelands as known in the Republic of South Africa, but according to our history the Transkei has never been a homeland . As long ago as 1894 we had our own type of government here, hence the first homeland of all which has seen fit to declare their willingness to take independence is Bophuthatswana. We are aware of our duty as pioneers and we are prepared to absorb the shocks and accept the insults levelled against us, because we have no doubt in our minds that the solution in South Africa will be first of all to completely break down and completely dismember South Africa and start afresh to build it . It does not require a special stretch of imagination to see the results of becoming the first independent territory in present conditions in South Africa. If independence is declared by the Transkei and the rest of the homelands, who cannot see the effect of this on the whole face of South Africa? We are not oblivious of the fact that we are part of South Africa but we have got to be logical, tactful and diplomatic in our dealings. In fact, even those people who are against our method of approach to the whole question have no alternative to place before us, and it would not be wise for me to spell out the policy of the Government for the future. Some people have said we have forsaken our brothers and sisters in the urban areas. Those people belong permanently to those areas and the solution of their problem will follow in due time. Now, back to the question of Balkanization - I am reminded of the game of jigsaw puzzles. A jigsaw puzzle consists of a number of different pieces of board which, put together, form a whole. A player starts off to put the pieces together and finds when it is threequarters finished that he cannot find the piece to continue with it. The player does not sit down and pray for the piece to fit itself into the picture. He throws all the pieces away. In other words, he dismembers the puzzle completely - Balkanizes it, if you like - and then starts afresh and builds against the odds which faced the Transkei. In the absence of any other alternative method of solving our problems constitutionally or otherwise, we have resorted to this mode and, with independence which is already imminent, we are now planning the next step. Thank you, Mr Chairman. ACTG C/MINISTER: Mr Chairman, I think the Government side has been flogging this dead donkey for a long time now and I suppose the operation has not been without pain to the Opposition. In order to give the Government side a rest from flogging and the Opposition a rest from being flogged, I move that the House adjourn till Monday at II'oclock, M/AGRICULTURE : I second. Agreed to. The debate was adjourned . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 29 March 1976.
exist in this House. This was done purely on grounds of principle not that there was any substance or material assistance we could get from an Opposition. We on this side are quite sympathetic with the lot of the Opposition in this House. The amount of bruising and battering they have had in the dying days of this third Legislative Assembly is really amazing, but for their courage in maintaining the principle until today we praise them. However, it is hoped that true opposition will emerge in the wake of independence. We have battled all along against our real opposition - the Department of Bantu Administration and Development. You know, from a casual perusal of the enactments of this department you will at once realise that this department was never meant to propagate or promote the interests of the black man, but to keep him from being regarded as a human being. It was established to keep However, him perpetually inferior in all respects. providentially for us, the appearance of a bright star in the name of the late Honourable Dr H. F. Verwoerd was a blessing in disguise for us. With the system he developed, notoriously known as apartheid", the black man was able, ironically enough, to turn it into the means of liberating the black man. Around 1960 we had another star a political figure which came into the political arena and very ably turned this adversity to great advantage for the black people. The gift of the Almighty to turn adversity to advantage is the gift of very few. In fact, only one such man is born in a generation. This generation of ours was blessed with the appearance of our hon Chief Minister on the scene, because at the start of the implementation of the provisions of apartheid he, and he alone, could perceive the silver lining of the dark cloud. Those of us who were taking an active part in politics at that time will recall the bad name and insults which were levelled against this figure. Such insults were not confined only to local quarters, but they came from even abroad. Dr Verwoerd in his implementation of apartheid experienced no difficulty at all because at that time South Africa had already been dismembered. The cutting up of South Africa started when different nations came to South Africa and started landgrabbing, hence we had the Great Trek from the west to what became the Republics of the Orange Free State, Transvaal and Natal, as well as the English settlements in the Eastern Province and Border; but when Boer and Briton realised they could no longer stay apart they decided on unification . Logically, such unification is the result of the dismemberment to which I have just referred therefore at this stage we do not expect anyone to say we on this side of the House are trying to excise the Transkei from the rest of the Republic of South Africa There is concrete evidence that the Transkei as a unit has had rewards at different levels because it followed what developed from apartheid, which is known as separate development. Look around us and judge for yourself what has happened to our We have a class of powerful people economically. traders and commercialists; administratively our people have awakened to the running of their local affairs ; in respect of education, active and very reasonable measures have been taken and are being taken to improve our system of education which is totally dissimilar to the Bantu education which was given to us before; and psychologically, self-respect, self-realisation and self-determination have been imbibed by our people and they know their existence as human beings . Politically, separate development has afforded a forum like this one where we even tolerate the nonsense from other people here. At a higher level than this one, where African countries consider continental matters , there is talk already that the Transkei will be considered as a member of the OAU, but if such recognition by the OAU does not come overnight we shall not be disheartened. We are quite aware that in those countries of Africa which claim membership of the OAU they have often had obdurate persons, just as we have had here. If it has taken us 13 years from the point where we started until today to achieve what we have, why should it take us less at a higher level? In the same way, where international affairs are concerned it is hoped that some of the nations will understand. We base all this courage and hope
MONDAY, 29 MARCH 1976 Prayers were read The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon members, I am happy to announce that the chiefs from the Glen Grey and Herschel districts will join this Assembly tomorrow morning. Provision should be made on the order paper for the administration of the oath. CHAIRMAN : Hon members, the Chairman of this Assembly has received e letter from the Great Place, Bumbane, from Paramount Chief Sabata DaliIndyebo. It is dated 29 March 1976 and reads as follows: "I hereby announce that I have decided to dissociate myself with the present leaders of the old and so-called New Democratic Parties." GOVT MEMBERS: Hear, hear. CHAIRMAN: It goes on: "I am going to be independent. Yours faithfully - Signed: S. Dalindyebo." BANTU ADMINISTRATION AMENDMENT BILL: FIRST READING CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon mem36.
bers, in the absence of the hon the Minister of Justice I lay upon the table a copy of the Transkeian Bantu Administration Amendment Bill and I move that the bill be now read a first time. M/EDUCATION: I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. The bill was read a first time. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, the second reading of this bill will be on the 30th day of March 1976 or so soon thereafter.
the Transkei. First of all, they begin to argue fatuously that they have never regarded separate development as a policy, then with financial inducement they swell their ranks. One wonders when we are going to get honest men handling affairs of State in the present situations. It is quite on the cards that when promises are not fulfilled and people are disappointed, there is going to be generated dissension and strife in this omnibus party. (Laughter) The signs are there and those to whom you preach the policy of separate development are sticking fast to it. The Basutos in Maluti are insisting that they are an ethnic group, and there is the beginning of disintegration; and a correspondent of the Daily Dispatch indicated that if the Gcalekas are not given a slice of this fat calf they are going to hive off to the Ciskei. Then all the Pondos are now in one camp. It is an unholy alliance taking place. (Laughter) They form a substantial membership of the Government_party and, who knows? One day we might have a Pondostan. The political viscissitudes in the Democratic Party have persuaded the hon the Paramount Chief of Tembuland to call a tribal meeting - not a political meeting - at Sitebe, so you might have a Tembustan in the formation. All these are the obvious consequences of the policy of separate development, and even though we have ethnic identity with the population of the Ciskei the latter do not want to join you,
NO CONFIDENCE CHAIRMAN: Hon members of the House, it is the feeling that this motion has been sufficiently canvassed and in the premises, therefore, I shall call upon the hon the Leader of the Opposition to reply. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I had been advised on Friday that the hon the Chief Minister sought to participate in this debate and I was therefore taking things easy until I had heard his wisdom, but I am now convinced that the arguments supporting this motion were so strong that in spite of a long weekend he has found he has no answer to give. Those on the Government side who said on Friday that they had been flogging a dead horse find that the dead horse is just at their front door. (Laughter) MR H. D. MLONYENI: It kicks even as it dies. MR GUZANA: When the hon the Minister of Justice joined the debate under this motion, what he thought was the most telling criticism against the Opposition was that it had been consistently advopleading, therefore, cating its policy since 1963 ― that the same dish had rather killed his appetite. Let me say quite openly that if anything was ever said by way of a compliment to the Opposition it was just that statement, vouching for the honesty, persistency and unwavering loyalty to its policy. We have had the Government side telling us that separate development is not a policy but, shall I say, a MODUS OPERANDI towards an end, yet ringing in our ears have been the protestations on behalf of separate development as the only policy that could ever be followed in South Africa. (Interjections) The Government has sought to suggest that this is not a policy. This means one of two things: Either they have been deceiving the Transkei for the last 13 years by pretending that this is a policy when it is not a policy; or they have come at last to their senses. Yet I want to warn them that they should not say that too loudly in the hearing of Prime Minister Vorster lest they be rapped on the knuckles, since he regards separate development as a policy. The Government has made the most of the fact that members who were erstwhile Democratic Party supporters have crossed over to the Government and they seem to enjoy this happening with uncontrolled glee, that the bigger they get, the more clumsy they be come, the more pleased they are with their stature. This is quite surprising indeed, for if we are going to believe their protestations that they would like to see an opposition in the post-independence era, this should cause them some concern. So we begin to see the shadow of things to come when we might find ourselves facing up to a one-party system of Government. Ambassadorial posts in the Republic, and also in countries overseas, and the increase in the number of Cabinet posts after independence are all matters which have been dangled before the eyes of many hon members in order to entice them and induce them into a somewhat mentally impoverished Government party. (Laughter and interjections) M/AGRICULTURE: Are you referring to members of your party? MR GUZANA: If indeed they have been induced in that way, as I can count quite a number of people on those benches - erstwhile Democratic Party supporters who have been seduced away by a promise of fat cheques ...(Laughter) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR GUZANA: .... then the seven men of the New Democratic Party certainly do not want to participate in the gold rush. This is the true calibre of a man who is in the New Democratic Party. It is one of the tragedies of the changes of loyalty that one begins to wonder whether or not there is promise of stability in the future of the Government of
MR H PAMLA : Do you blame the Transkeian Government for that? MR GUZANA : I blame the Transkeian Government four-square for it and it alone first jumped into this muddy political pool. CHIEF G. L. SIGCAU : On a point of order, Mr Chairman ... (Not interpreted) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Sit down, please, chief. Hon members must please behave. MR GUZANA: And so we have evidence today of what I have been talking about. (Laughter) That is the type of government we have. Not only do we have a hangover which we bring to this House, but we fortify ourselves before getting here in order to negate the truth. Most has been made out of the fact that the hon member for Qumbu has crossed to the Government side. Now I want to say one or two largely because the hon things about just that member did participate in this discussion, but also because the Government side has glorified in his change of party loyalty. One would have thought that having recently crossed to the Government side they would realise they have still got what we call wet ears and cold feet. However, I think we need to look at this crossing over of the hon member more closely. When he was a chief (he is still a chief) in 1963 his membership of this House was automatic. When the number of chiefs was increased in his area and he was eliminated, he went to the people and asked the people to vote him in, and they did so. He has consistently served in that capacity as an elected member until not somany weeks ago, but because the new Constitution excludes sub-chiefs from membership of this House his position as a member of this House has now again been guaranteed by the fact that he will be one of the number who will come to this House after independence. (Interjections) If there are any sub-chiefs here they had better get back to their regional authorities and ask to be elevated to chiftainship, otherwise when next this House meets they will be hovering outside. (Laughter) So you begin to wonder what the motives of this hon member for Qumbu have been all the time. (Interjections) MR H. PAMLA: Tell us why you have no confidence in the Government. MR GUZANA: The trouble is that hon members of the governing party are such a collection as may he equated with Falstaff's army which he refused to lead into Coventry. (Laughter) So, Mr Chairman, when the crunch came and the hon member became assured of his membership here, and that membership lines his purse, he has turned his back on the people of Qumbu. And he is the member who was the object of vituperous and scathing attack by this Government only last year and consistently for the past twelve years. Today they say: Hail, you have been saved, prodigal son.
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MR PAMLA: We told you to cross over. MR GUZANA: I would not be associated with you even in a pigsty. (Laughter) The hon the Minister of Justice played about with words and sought to avoid the issue when he had to define what the Government says is going to be its policy of nonracialism. His was an exercise in avoiding the issue. I had put before this House the fact that you cannot speak of nonracialism where you have a heterogeneous population. You cannot change the people and make them one tribe, one nation, by saying they do not exist in their entities of White, Coloured and Black. He goes on to argue that nonracialism means that no person's rights or privileges, duties and obligations will be determined by the colour of his skin as if, when the racial issue has been extracted from our politics, then all people shall be treated equally and alike. I must advise this Government that there are many prejudices other than racial prejudices which vitiate the government or the policy of any country. You have commercial prejudices; you have discrmnation in the issue of licences for business purpose; you have residence discrimination; you have service discrimination. There are so many aspects of discrimination that you cannot say you have a policy when you say you are going to extract the racial issue out of politics, because you are left with a big and a deep residue of other prejudices for which you must provide. MR PAMLA: How can you provide for commercial prejudices? MR GUZANA: The hon member wants to know how we could provide in order to avoid commercial prejudices. I am not going to waste my time educating you, but what I must put to you is: Will you answer that question for me, because I am asking you that question? You are the nonracialists, so tell me how you are going to deal with the other prejudices. MR PAMLĂ : As a multiracialist how would you Ideal with them? MR GUZANA: This hon member must choose the hill on the top of which he will shout at me. He cannot shout at me from the nonracialism hill and, when he is being shot at, run across to stand at the top of the multiracialism hill and shout again. Stick to your guns. This is your responsibility as a Government and you should have thought these things out and spelt them out for the people in the Transkei, but mum's the word as far as you are concerned. You are just as silent as the grave, hoping against hope that some miracle is going to happen to order things after independence. MR PAMLA: The trouble is you don't even know your policy. MR GUZANA: Tell me why you have consistently been denuding the Transkei of its white population if you are nonracialists. Can you tell me why the Coloured population, because of your policy, has had to move out? MR PAMLA: They were made to feel a cut above us. MR GUZANA: Yes, you always place yourself at the bottom of the ladder. You always choose to be at the bottom. You have lost faith in yourself. If you come into a house and you are offered a chair inside the room, you want to sit next to the door. (Interjections) If you are asked to join the people at table, you want to be served in the kitchen. That is the kind of mentality with which we have to deal in this Government - people who have no faith in themselves. The Government has said multiracialism is not synonymous with fairness and they argue that in South Africa we have had a multi-racial society which is in imbalance - that the white community has had the cake and that the black community has had the samp. That is the reason why this side of the House has canvassed strongly for a Bill of Rights to be written into the Constitution, so that rights and duties, privileges and obligations fall equally on all members of this multiracial society in the Transkei. The trouble with this Government is that it reminds me of a donkey which was ridden via the bottlestore by its owner every day, and even if he were drowsy because of a numbness the donkey found its way to the bottle-store and stopped there until he went in. If you want to see the relevance of this I want to say the bottle-store for you has been sepa-
rate development, self-government has been the donkey that the hon the Chief Minister has been riding and so even when you want to veer away from the bottle-store the donkey still takes you there. (Laughter) Even the shambok of nonracialism which you are using on this donkey to turn it away from the bottle-store can hardly succeed. Just as much as the rider used to get himself a big coat in order to hide his brandy under this coat, so you are hiding discrimination under your coat of nonracialism. (Interjections). M/AGRICULTURE : This is your view. MR GUZANA: If this is my view I have asked you to tell me what your view is but you have failed dismally. I have asked you to spell out your policy. I do not think a shying horse could have performed better than you did in avoiding this issue. Let me give you an example of your so-called non-racial policy. Last year a white man and a black man came to me with the idea of establishing a joint commercial venture. CHIEF MINISTER: Are you a licensing concern? MR GUZANA: I am a practising attorney, Sir. I immediately took this matter up with the Minister of the Interior with the question: Will the Government issue a licence? She admitted to me that there was policy confusion and this would have to be referred upstairs to the Cabinet. Later on, about a month later, I presented my humble self at the offices of the Minister of the Interior to receive a reply. MR H. D. MLONYENI: Did you make an appointment? MR GUZANA: I need not make an appointment, and it was in the light of day (Laughter) CHIEF MINISTER : Do you make appointments at night? MR GUZANA: Those who do so know when to make their appointments. The answer received through the hon the Minister of the Interior from the Cabinet was "No". GOVT MEMBER: You were rejected? MR GUZANA: It was quite obvious, therefore, even as late as last year, even after you had been mumbling about nonracialism ... CHIEF MINISTER: What was the reason it was refused? MR GUZANA: .... that you were merely deceiving the public. CHIEF MINISTER: What were the reasons given? MR GUZANA: I asked the reason why. The reply of the hon Minister was about the most honest I could expect. She said : "I don't know." (Laughter) CHIEF MINISTER: It is the discrimination of the Government to grant licences. We need not advance reasons. MR GUZANA: Then why did you ask for reasons? If your discretion is employed for refusing an implementation of your policy of nonracialism, why ask....? M/AGRICULTURE : Wait till next year. MR GUZANA : The hon Minister says wait till next year. This reminds me of the housewife who waits until you get home for lunch and then starts to cook the lunch. The result is it is burnt. This is the time for preparation for whatever that is which you call nonracialism. (Interjections) M/AGRICULTURE: Why do you use the word "preparation"? MR GUZANA: Instead, you are sitting back and denying the existence of racism in the Transkei. Of course, this is politically wise for the Government There are two possible results if you begin to prepare now. Those black nationalists who have been fed with the poison of separate development will say: Why are you accommodating Whites and Coloureds in our Bantustan? M/AGRICULTURE: They have not said so. MR GUZANA: The other alternative is that you don't know what you are talking about and you are afraid to try it out. How can nonracialism guarantee the freedom of the individual ? How can it guarantee a person's right to private property? Now can it protect privacy? It looks to me very much like saying: Let us have a football game, and let it be free-for-all where there is no referee. CHIEF MINISTER: You used to be a good debator at Lovedale. 38.
MR GUZANA: I am still trying to be. A reputation well earned must be well kept. (Laughter) Somebody has argued that it would be a fallacy to expect Whites to hand over to the Blacks, and here is the basis of the fallacy of the policy of separate development. M/AGRICULTURE: What are they going to hand over? MR GUZANA: How can you have freedom or independence handed over to you on a platter? If indeed you distrust the white man so much, when did you come to realise there might be honesty in him? That he has become so gracious, so philosophic, so loving towards you that he has given you something which is good for you? You like to essay into the realms of self-deception if that is your belief about the white man. Then again, you have the impression that something has to be handed over to you. If they hand over everything to you, what is left for them? Multiracialism is just that policy which says "Share and share alike all things", but you like to take over and not participate. When you speak of majority rule you are thinking in your minds of BLACK majority rule, so that every time you are travelling under camouflage as if you are on the Angolan border (Laughter) You pay lip service to the principle of majority rule, which is a sound principle, but right at the back of your minds you say it will be BLACK majority rule. M/AGRICULTURE: That is very sound. MR GUZANA: These diehard racists, these diehard separationists, these diehard apartheidists now tell us they are going to follow the policy of nonracialism. Who is going to believe you? And why did you ever fall for this policy of separate development? Let me show you how stupid it is even amongst the Blacks who are divided into the Xhosa group, the Zulu group, the Tswana group, the Sotho group, the Venda group and the others. Let us take the clan name of Dlamini, for instance. You have the Dlaminis here and because they are in Xhosaland they call themselves Xhosas. You go to KwaZu lu and you find Dlaminis there and because they are in KwaZulu they say they are Zulus. You go to Swaziland and you find a Dlamini there and he calls himself a Swazi. They are all Dlamini throughout these three ethnic groups. You see how nonsensical it is for anybody to accept ethnic division when you have a situation such as has been illustrated, with just one clan name - Dlamini. CHIEF MINISTER: Are there any white Dlaminis? MR GUZANA: I have not asked for any white Dlaminis. CHIEF MINISTER: But you are championing them so much. MR GUZANA: Among the Whites there are Scotsmen, there are Irishmen, and there are Blacks who pretend to be Whites, so let us not ask whether there are Dlaminis amongst the Whites ; nor should we say they are the 13th tribe in the Transkei, for your policy is supposed to be a nonracial policy. I was criticized for challenging the lack of economic stability and progress for the Transkei and the hon the Minister of Justice gave me an argument and said we have not developed our agricultural potential. Can you imagine such an admission that after 13 years of this party in power, governing the Transkei, knowing this potential, they have done next to nothing about it. Then I was told about the potential minerals along the Transkei coastline. Now, I want to know if the economy of any country is based on potential, rather than exploitation. Thirteen years have not improved our agriculture; 13 years have not improved our stock. This Lubisi irrigation scheme has been run at a loss over since it began. When is this Government going to think straight and relate its scientific development to the stage at which the people are who are to be developed ? Men who had not been trained in agriculture were placed on these irrigation plots below the Lubisi Dam. There was tribal exclusiveness, too. Since the dam is in Emigrant Tembuland it ought therefore to serve the Tembus in Emigrant Tembuland . This is the result of a Government which has changed its policy to nonracialism and it is as tribal as the hills. And so everything begins to fail whilst in your hands. Has there been any economic survey of the Transkei up to now? Do you know which part of the Transkei best suits a particular type of crop? (Interjections) All
we get is generalizations to the effect that Eastern Pondoland is a rich area; Emigrant Tembuland is a dry place; the coast gets more rain; further inland there is less rain - and you want a scientific industrio-pastoralization programme to be based on these old-time generalities. I suppose after independence, because everything is being postponed till after independence, something will be done. GOVT MEMBERS: Indeed. That's right. MR GUZANA: I hope the hon Ministers who will be occupying the Cabinet posts in that post-independence era will get away from swinging their chairs from left to right and polishing the wood as smooth as possible. (Laughter) Hon members, it is time you realised what you have asked for and that it is your responsibility to make it succeed. We tried to point out that this was the wrong course constitutionally, economically, politically, culturally but you were as obstinate as the drinking mule and you are still carrying on. Let us hear what you have got to tell us about what you have got to do. MR H. PAMLA: We have succeeded in destroying your party. MR GUZANA: The hon member for Umzimkulu says they have succeeded in destroying our party There is certainly no end to the damage that a rotten tomato will do to a box of healthy tomatoes. M/AGRICULTURE : It is your language that destroys your party. MR GUZANA: It is going to destroy you too. You had better be careful. (Laughter) The hon the Minister of Justice said that I had criticized the appointment of learner or trainee or infantile diplomats posted overseas, and he says my criticism was against the R18 000 a year because that salary was equal to that of a white diplomat. I could not care less what they earn. What I am concerned with is whether or not the Transkei can afford that luxury. That is what I am asking. Multiply R18 000 by 7. Seven times 18, hon member for Umzimkulu! (Laughter) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR GUZANA: The answer is R126 000 a year, plus perks, plus conveniences, plus immunities, plus what have you -- all the paraphernalia of empty glory. MR PAMLA: You are not serious. MR GUZANA: And when you drive home to Umzimkulu you look to left and right and you see mud huts collapsing. What is happening to the R126 000 that could be invested in a brickmaking factory so that people can put up strong houses ? Just that alone! I am putting it low so that you will understand. MR PAMLA: Have you seen the matchboxes built for our people in Johannesburg? MR GUZANA: Probably because I spoke to this unnecessary extravagance a trainee diplomat based in London raised his voice to say the Transkei is not a Bantustan. It is a country. That is about all we have heard ever since he got there at R18 000 a year, and yet he is sent there from a Transkei Bantustan. MR PAMLA: This is not a Bantustan, it is a country. MR GUZANA: I need not educate you. Probably you don't know where you are sitting. You don't know which party you are supporting. You don't even know the philosophy of separate development and the word "Bantustan" has never registered in your mind. Now, I want to ask him, the honourable trainee diplomat who is costing so much money to the Transkei, what he is doing in London now from a Bantustan, because independence has not yet come to pass. MR PAMLA: He is being trained. MR GUZANA: He is being trained under the auspices of a Bantustan, not under the auspices of a country. The hon Minister of Justice, in response to my criticism pointing out the failure of the Government to teach the people, Black, Coloured and white, what it is all about when they shout "Independence", countered with the statement that since about June last year the hon the Chief Minister has been going round in the Transkei holding meetings, and these are artificially prepared meetings with the chiefs told quite specifically: You get your people to Umzimkulu or else .... (Interjections) 39.
GOVT MEMBERS: Or else what? MR GUZANA: The teachers must bring out all the pupils from the classroom or else .... All the singing choirs in the district must be there or else .... All political supporters of the Government must be there or else .... (Laughter) I am reminded of the meeting held in Kentani where even buses were provided free of charge to take everybody holus-bolus to Kentani. MR H. D. MLONYENI: What is wrong with that? It was a reception. MR GUZANA: The hon member for Kentani says this was arranged as a reception, and that is what has been happening. He has been going round and having receptions and not telling the people about independence. (Laughter) One would like to avoid counting up the number of oxen, sheep, chickens, etc, slaughtered in the name of a reception throughout the Transkei (Interjections) - let alone the hamels that are suffocated in the boots of these big black cars (Laughter) There is no point in pretending to go to the people unless you tell them what it is all about. Before you get to them you have your speech ready prepared and you get there and you spout out and no questions asked. You are going to get it thick and very thick, too, because you are deceiving the people about what independence really is. The hon member says I am used to criticizing people. I would rather be engaged in criticism than sit in ignorant silence for the rest of my life. Now the hon member for Umtata, the hon Mr Lufufeni, thought he would twist the truth somewhat. If he is sensitive when I speak in reply because he is a chief, let him get to the upper house. Whilst he is here he is subject to political criticism just as any other hon member is. I know of diplomatic immunity, but I have never heard of chiefs' immunity. (Laughter) He expressed surprise that the official Opposition had been recognized by the Government. I want to ask him who else he expected to recognize the official Opposition other than the Government? That is the proper parliamentary procedure and etiquette. I hope you do realise that this is not a tribal meeting. (Laughter) Furthermore, may I advise you that the official Opposition has a majority in the Opposition. MR H. PAMLA: Is that why you have confidence in the Government? MR GUZANA: I shall never have confidence in the Government so long as they rake in people like the hon member for Umzimkulu. The hon member went on to gloat over the defection of Western Pondoland to the governing side. Do you know that the fanciful 3 000 people could well have been in reality no more than 300? If you glory in the change of loyalty that has been manifested by Western Pondoland joining the Government, then I think you glory in treachery, (Interjections) for the hon member is probably the best example of that type of political treachery which has characterized his political life in the Transkei. At one time he was a dyed-in-the-wool DP supporter and today he is a dyed-in-the-blood separate development supporter. (Interjections) If I were in his shoes I would have feared to talk of the defection of Western Pondoland. To me he sounds very much like the child whose mother has just excused herself that she hasn't any more cake and the child comes along and says : "Mother, the cake is just ready in the oven now," The hon member went on to say I could not even go back to Mqanduli. I have my evidence amongst the Government members. On 13 March 1976 I had a meeting at Ngcwanguba Administrative Area, numbering in reality and not in imagination over 600 people. (Interjections) There you ask who called that meeting for me. You make your hate a personal one and I could walk into the home of any of these chiefs and they would slaughter a hamel for me. (Laughter).
M/AGRICULTURE:. And no hamels. MR GUZANA: And no hamels. I was treated rovally both by my hosts and by the people whom I addressed, and I will invite the hon member for Umtata to come along with me but I shall not be responsible for his security. (Laughter) Let this point be clear, hon members, that the winds of change are beginning to make themselves felt in South Africa; that this wind of change is manifesting itself in substantial concessions which are passing on to the non-White group; that the Government of the Republic has considered that the Blacks in White South Africa are permanently there; that a sane economist (not an economist agitated by apartheid) sees the sound economy of South Africa as the result of the interdependence of the racial groups . So that when there is a move away from the harsh realities of separate development, there you are running away from what you have asked for all your lifetime running away with a piece of rag called the Transkei and saying: That is good enough for me. Let me throw at you a teasing question, and I want you to answer yes or no. Have you abandoned the rest of South Africa as a place where you should reside permanently? Answer this question honestly and justly when you go to the people, for I believe that you are in a position to tell the people what is coming to them. Don't tell them that you have surrendered your heritage in South Africa. It is the characteristic of all people who are government supporters that they will avoid facing the consequences of independence and making them known now. Are you prepared to go into the urban areas and tell the Blacks who are living there that you will have nothing to do with them because you are taking independence? Will you tell them that? GOVT MEMBER: No. MR GUZANA: No, of course you won't. MR H. PAMLA: Why don't you tell them to follow you? They are not our responsibility. MR GUZANA: Yes, you argue that they are not your responsibility but they are as black as you are. That is the utter self-consciousness that characterized this party to accept independence. It is going to feed him, and never mind anyone else. As long as my stomach is stretched to bursting point I could not care less about what happens to anyone else. That is their attitude. The hon member for Ngqeleni, Chief D. D. P. Ndamase, who, whilst a chief, was loyal to the Democratic Party but who, on being elected by the people, deserted them, asked this question: Do you like the 1913 Land Act; do you like the South African Bantu Trust and Land Act? He catalogued all the laws of discrimination. This is a man who has had the policy of separate development, enshrined in those laws, applied by him in his own area of jurisdiction and he seems to equate the repeal of those laws with independence, as if those laws could never be repealed unless and until the Transkei becomes independent. It is my biggest puzzle to find that Government members equate development with separate develop ment. They argue conversely that if this Government had not acquiesced to the policy then there would not have been any development. I want to ask: Is the factory established in Butterworth a manifestation of separate development or is it industrial decentralization? Is the development of the Transkei the product of separate development? Could that development not take place in the Transkei as an underdeveloped ' region of the Republic? (Interjections) The fallacy that confronts the protagonists of separate development is: Had it not been for separate development we would not have a factory; we would not have an elevenstorey building going up; we would not have this, that and the other thing, as though no development of that nature takes place in the United States of America or anywhere else in the world where they don't follow the policy of separate development. The hon member for Ngqeleni also said if the Transkei does not take inde pendence, will the Republic not argue that it was the Blacks who did not want independence? Let me just hammer this point into your thick heads. Independence is not synonymous with freedom. MR H. PAMLA: How do you come by that? MR GUZANA: You ask me how I come by that argument. I close up the pig in the pigsty; it lives alone and that is being independent, but it is not being free. (Laughter) If the Transkeian citizen had said
CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR GUZANA: Not so long ago hon members were told by the hon the Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland that the fatted calf is awaiting me at Qaukeni. At that meeting at Ngcwanguba I received the full confidence of the people. No buses carted them to Ngcwanguba; no pupils were canvassed to attend that meeting, there were no singers at that meeting; there was no reception at that meeting.
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MR PAMLA: You had better withdraw that. MR GUZANA: Ask the Minister to withdraw his statement. The debate was adjourned.
no to independence and the Republic had said- they refused independence, the world would say in reply: The Black South African wants realisation, not in the Transkei pondokkie but in South Africa as a whole. The hon member for Ngqeleni in trying to bolster up the case for independence said that even minors will have a vote. First of all, the minors today do vote. You don't need to give the Transkei independence to let the minors vote. Secondly, and this is the more dangerous aspect of the situation - you get cheap politicians who want to exploit the ignorance of the illiterate championing one man, one vote, so that they should use them as voting cattle to satisfy their political ideologies. That is what it is. MR PAMLA: How did you get into this House? MR GUZANA: And when you think of minors, you think of people who are ignorant, who are going to be exploited, and the hon member forgets that even the educated, the teachers, the ministers of religion everybody will have the vote. (Laughter) The hon member of Qumbu said the NDP is like a car driving in top gear uphill downhill, into mud and what have you. NDP -- New Democratic Party; NDP - Not for Degree Purposes, NDP - Not for Demolition Purposes; NDP - Not for Devaluation Purposes. (Laughter) The hon member stated that because this car keeps in top gear it is not a good car. He rode this car for 13 years. He took a long time to understand it and, of course, being a member of the old antiquated group he does not know there is something like an automatic transmission in gears. For him, before he knows he has got it into gear he must stamp on the clutch and put it into second gear, then he knows it is in second gear. (Laughter) We drive a political car with an automatic transmission. It changes smoothly to low, to second, to top and back, and the passenger does not know it has changed. (Laughter) We don't manifest any effort. We just go along purposefully, deliberately, towards our goal. May I, Mr Chairman, reciprocate the good sentiments expressed by the hon member, Mr R. Madikizela, towards his erstwhile colleagues. He has expressed appreciation for the thoughts we shared and the efforts we put in together. These sentiments are being reciprocated today. It is quite evident to me that probably there is more than meets the eye in relation to this member's position politically today. His seat will remain polished, waiting for him. (Laughter) I want to say that when the hon the Minister of Justice justifies the establishment of an army for the Transkei he is mistaking the most important services and allowing these to fall off by default for what to me and to many of us appears to be an expensive luxury. I warned this Government of the dangers of establishing an army and pointed up north to the 40-odd coups that have taken place. I pointed out to this Government ' that it can ill afford to have a battalion fed in barracks as if there is an impeding war on. MR H. PAMLA: Why? South Africa is spending over R700 million on defence. MR GUZANA: It is because you are becoming dangerous. That is the Reason. You are beginning to align yourself with Frelimo. Under your blanket at Umzimkulu you say: Let the Portuguese from Portuguese East Africa come sooner. (Interjections) So South Africa must be ready to face you. MR PAMLA: Your followers are communistically orientated. MR GUZANA: Now, I want to know who your enemy is. Against whom are you going to march with your battalion? M/AGRICULTURE : Against you. MR GUZANA: You know Don Quixote got into difficulties because wind-mills threatened him and on charging against them full tilt he found he had charged into an ordinary windmill. I suppose Maluti is assuming proportions of such an alarming degree that you want the army to get ready. (Interjections) The hon the Minister of Justice went on to say that if we did not have an army, without an army what could we do except accept what the Republican Government gives us. Your motives are suspect, hon members. You are building up an army to fight in South Africa. Let us have it out. (Laughter) Were it not so, the hon the Minister of Justice would not have told this House without any arms what could we do except accept what is given to us.
AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the motion of no confidence was resumed. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chirman and hon members, I think I shall have to take good care not to speak so pointedly to Government members, for the Government benches are now empty. (Laughter) I wish to make one or two comments in relation to the discussion on this motion of no confidence as handled by the hon the Minister of the nterior. Emphasis was laid by her on the independence not, saying among other things, that the whole of Africa is crying for independence and she wanted to know why the people in the Transkei still have an oppositon to this concept. She did not tell us that the difference between these African States and the Transkei is that in the Transkei independence, but will be the result of Balkanization. a country. It is not an entity which did exist seeking independence, but will be the restult of Balkanization. It is not a part of Portuguese East Africa that has gained independence, but Portuguese East Africa as a whole; nor is it part of Angola that s taking up independence - it is the whole of Angola. It is not part of the population of either Portuguese East Africa or what is called Maputo, or part of the population of Angola that is asking for independence - it is the whole population. You cannot therefore equate the cry for independence for Angola with the rather false cry of the people of the Transkei. What you should be crying for as black people in South Africa is freedom in South Africa, then I would understand you. Don't imagine that you are echoing the cry for independence of the African States. You are on a false note right from the outset. Let us therefore place the facts before us and not try to cover up our stupidity by equating it with the independence of the African States. Nor is the break-up of the Rhodesian Federation a fragmentation. Three independent states came together to form the Federation, but when they found it did not work they returned to the status quo ante. So when the hon the Minister of the Interior says they have their finger on the pulse of the thinking of the people, she obviously does not know where to take the pulse. Nor is the pulse the best form of diagnosis of a disease. You may have a fast pulse in a condition induced by bronchitis, brought about by pneumonia, brought about by any other condition, but because you say you have your finger on the pulse you think you are going to diagnose the disease. If you interpret the pulse correctly -the pulse on the African thinking it will be that he wants realisation in the multiracial country of South Africa and nothing less than that. Then let it be said that this side of the House is not made up of "chunks" of men, neither has the hon the Minister of the Interior impressed me with her slenderness. Indeed, she has not tested our weight. It has been suggested that countries with less educational achievement, such as Tanzinia, have asked for independence, but when I asked the hon the Minister of Education for comparative figures she refused to supply these and she referred me to the Department of Education, so that her argument fell away because it was statistically incomplete. But assuming that the Transkei has more graduates and more matriculants than Tanzania at the time of independence, what have we shown for that education over the last 13 years? What do we find happening in the Department of Education to produce, probably, these large numbers? In some of the schools the final examination papers which have been written by students have not been marked, and examination results awarding marks in respect of the various subjects have been issued and sent to parents with the comment "Failed" or "Passed". When 15 % of the Std 7 students have passed and the marks are jacked up to give a 55% pass, what type of education is this? MR H. PAMLA: Are you replying to a policy statement now? MR GUZANA : I am replying to the Government's claim and justification for independence over other independent states and so you cannot boast about these numbers because we have not the quality, although 41 .
Mr Moses Dumalisile Mr N. Jafta Mr H. H. Zibi Chief Mafu G. Mabandla Chief K. T. Sigcau Amended motion put and carried. CHAIRMAN : With due respect to the hon members, I would just like to make this comment. Ever since we have sat in this House the discipline of the House has been ragged. There are regulations controlling this House or any House of Assembly. Ever since we have been here hon members take it upon their pleasure to make a noise for no purpose. They pass between a speaker and the Chairman just as they please. In all sophisticated parliaments it is said that discipline is more important than parliament itself, because that parliament, with discipline, is no parliament whatesoever. I therefore plead with the hon members to behave. I would not like to exercise sterner measures against you. Thank you.
we may have the quantity. May I say in concluding, hon members, that the day of reckoning is here and now. Your bluff is going to be called. You will have to come out in the open as to what you are, and you are nothing less than racialists. MR PAMLA: We destroyed your party. MR GUZANA: Yes, destroyed the party as any bad apple will destroy a box of good apples. That a Government which lies on its back and does not prepare for what it asked for is being irresponsible to the most dangerous degree. A Government which brings in an amendment to pat itself on the back because it thinks it has done well lacks the substance that would command appreciation from the Opposition. The amendment is no more than a cheap call to faked patriotism, and let me state quite clearly that whilst you may disagree with me completely I shall protect your right to disagree. (Interjections) The trouble is that the hon the Minister of Agriculture does not know what I am talking about. I must let you talk even if I do not agree with you. That is what I am saying, and I must die to protect your right to talk. M/AGRICULTURE : Does it go as far as that? MR GUZANA: Jesus died for sinners like you, too. (Laughter) Will this House have confidence in this Government? If you express confidence in this Government you will be betraying your birth right in South Africa. You will know that today and on 26 October 1976 you will be sealing the grave of the African in South Africa. You will know in your heart of hearts that you never got a mandate to dismember South Africa. (Interjections) All persons seek to live together amicably and South Africa is the best place to bring about that peaceful change will result in the acceptance of each individual into a society which respects his dignity, his personality, his home and his freedom. South Africa is for us all Black, Coloured, Indian, White, and even you, too. We are large-hearted enough to accommodate you in South Africa. (Laughter) Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN : Hon members, the question is a motion by the hon the Leader of the Opposition "That this House has no confidence in the Government", to which an amendment has been moved by the hon the Acting Chief Minister. I shall put the amendment first. A division was called. CHAIRMAN: I will refer the House to Regulation 97(d) of the Rules of Procedure :- "When, on a division taking place, fewer than fifteen members appear on one side, the Chairman or Deputy Chairman shall forthwith declare the resolution of the Assembly: Provided that in such case the names of the members who vote in the minority shall be recorded in the Votes and Proceedings." The Opposition put together at present is eleven members and so they are fewer than fifteen. MR GUZANA : Before you make your ruling, Sir, a division shall take place if four members rise and ask for it. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR GUZANA: No tellers will count the votes if there are less than fifteen members appearing on one side, so that the division must take place and then when you find that one side has fifteen or less then you do not send the tellers out to write down the names. You merely record the names of those people who total in number less than fifteen, and their names shall appear in the Votes and Proceedings of the House. M/AGRICULTURE: Mr Chairman, when the Chairman called for the vote, only two members stood up to call for a division on the Opposition side, so that even the talk of a division is irrelevant. MR GUZANA: Mr Chairman, may I just correct what the hon the Minister of Agriculture has said. The Chairman asked for a vote. Nobody at that stage called for a division. The rough rebels said Yea and the cultured Opposition said Nay. (Laughter) It is only after that that we called for a division and these are the men who want a division. M/AGRICULTURE : But they didn't stand. That is what I am arguing about. CHAIRMAN : Hon members, I will be patient. I will repeat and ask those in favour to say Yes. The amendment was accepted after a division as follows:NOES Mr K. M. N. Guzana
PAYMENT OF OLD-AGE PENSION TO RECIPIENTS OF REPUBLICAN GOVERNMENT PENSION MR E. M. DEKEDA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government be requested to pay all Transkeian citizens receiving pension payments from the Republican Government, old-age pension in addition to the pension they receive from the Republican Government. ” I shall try, hon members , to explain why this motion has been brought to this House. All the hon members in this House are aware of these pensioners who were then paid by the Provincial Administration. We know they laid the foundation of our education in the Transkei. Whilst they were working their standard of living was higher than that of the ordinary man. They had to dress decently, they had to appear above the ordinary man in the street. They earned a decent wage or salary, as it was then, but we know that after they reached pension age this money was reduced. In all the departments of the Transkei our salaries have been increased brought up to the present standard of living, but unfortunately for these poor people their pay has never been increased. I will request you to take your pens and see how these people have been paid and how they are paid today. When a man took his pension he was paid two-sevenths of the salary he was earning at the date of his retirement. Now, hon members, for argument's sake let us take a man who was earning R1 200 the day he took his pension. MR K. M. GUZANA: Why not make it an easy figure? Make it R1 400. MR DEKEDA: Now you will confuse me and make my calculations awkward. Now, take two-sevenths of that and you get R343 to the nearest. MR GUZANA: We would not have had that "to the nearest" if you had taken R1 400. MR DEKEDA: Now, this man who was earning R1 200 per annum, when pensioned would get R343 to the nearest, and this means that this man would get R29 a month to the nearest. Then the Provincial Administration has to add R10 a month cost-of-living to this amount. You will remember, hon members, that the pension for the black people in those days only applied to the people in the Cape Province and Natal. This gave this poor teacher R39 a month to the nearest. I will now take a man who was pensioned from the Transkeian Government. It became bigger because of the cost-of-living allowance. At first the pensioners from the Transkeian Government were paid R180 per annum and when the salary scales were revised this costof-living allowance was also revised. At present the pensioner in the Transkei is getting R360 a year cost-ofliving, excluding the pension he is getting, which is R30 a month added to his pension. MR GUZANA : What is his pension? MR DEKEDA: Two-sevenths of the salary at the time of retirement. What I say is that these people have been paid cost-of-living of R180 per annum besides the pension. Now, when the salary scales were revised this cost-of-living was raised to R360 per annum. I will not quote how much the pension of a man is because it goes according to the amount he was earning on retire-
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ment, but, as I said, it is always two - sevenths of the amount he was receiving. that notch. How, therefore , can this be revised when MR GUZANA : Let us say he was earning R2 100. has already retired? Obviously it is impossible to he DE tea KE ove Thi and che old DA : r-age to MR s r is sal vag e the parlous position in which these teachers are, hav work. He has a family to keep. They are used to ing and one can very well imagine in what financial plight tea twice a day, he is used to wearing a tie, shoes and a tea cher is on retirement when he finds he gets only a suit. Because of his position as a teacher he has been a sevenths of his salary at the time of retiring. One twoleader of the community socially. I will also add that would have thought the hon member would have these people who earned their salaries from the Republisuggested that they be given an ex gratia payment. There can Government are now paid by the Transkeian are insuperable difficulties in the way of improving a Government via Pretoria. I am here, Mr Chairman, to pension. You see, there is a means test which is set for lab app our the eal that the old men who ed in try to those who apply for old- age pensions and the figure Transkei for our people be paid a better allowance given by the hon member from that which we now call the old- age pension. It namely , R343 per year to the nearest starvation point will not be the same as those people who were pensioned isy mu maximum valuation used by wa meaenstha tesntthe ofch to a mor Gov Tra ern nskeian ment. I appeal to our from the determine whether or not a person qualifies for an oldGovernment that the R30 which is paid every two age pension. If the hon member has looked at the months to our old- age pensioners must be split into motion still to be discussed he will know that there two and paid to these people monthly. I am hoping this is a suggested increase of the means test figure to motion will be supported by every hon member of the R180, but R343 to the nearest starving point is still House .... more than that suggested amount of R180. Furthermore, MR GUZANA : Before you sit down, may I ask a let us not miss the purpose for which the old-age pension question? scheme was introduced. It is intended to assist people MR DEKEDA: .... because of the light which was who, in spite of their gainful employment during their com mun brought by these people to the ities of the productive years, were unable to provide for old age. Transkei. We know that because of these small salaries Whe re a person earned R16 a month it is impossible beg bec gars. ome they have for such a worker to provide for the rainy day when age MR GUZANA : Mr Chairman , may I ask a quescatches up with him. Such a person deserved the tion ? In view of the fact that the hon member is now sympathy of the State which then introduced this oldtailing off as he speaks to his motion, may I have age pension scheme : but for the man who wears a tie some facts as to all Transkeian citizens other than during his productive employment, has two cups of teachers. You have spoken to the point relating to tea per day , wears a suit - in effect is earning sufficient teachers but what is the position in regard to other to put away for the rainy day which is old age in other categories? words his earnings are sufficient for him to contribute MR DEKEDA: I am afraid I will fail to answer to a pension fund or to buy policies maturing at the that because I have only investigated this matter. Only time of retirement to keep him with his tie , to keep teachers were paid by the Provincial Administration and him with his two cups of tea a day in his old age . they are the only people affected here. All the people MR H. PAMLA : Do you mean a European? employed in the offices in those days had a different MR GUZANA: I mean a Coloured, black as you source of pension from the Republican Government. are. (Laughter) MR GUZANA: Wouldn't they want a supplementMR PAMLA: What sort of policy can you take ary old-age pension too? from R10 a month? MR DEKEDA : These figures I have given will give MR GUZANA: Now, the situation in this: Were all the teachers mentioned a pension of R54 a month. you to give the pensioner R30 bimonthly by way of MR GUZANA : Are you feathering your own nest? an old-age pension you would be guilty of injustice in What about other people? that you would be depriving someone who ought to be emp DE loy peo KE wer wh as ed ple The DA e o MR : getting that R30 bimonthly sustenance in order to typists and clerks had a different way of getting their keep a retired teacher in affluence - if aff pension. They had the same scheme as the Europeans, lue come to one at R60 or R70 a mon ow 'tncekncan th. I don day tho s. se in fact, in sit pen whe uat ari one sion is less than ion re ses 's if a GU ZANA: I see. And will they not want MR what one gets from an old-age pension maintenance. supplementary pensions? In any event, if the money is available let it relieve the MR DEKEDA : As I say, their salaries are now hardship of a person who is not getting anything at all higher than those who ended their careers as teachers. because he could not provide for this period at the As a matter of fact, hon members, it has been proved time when he was gainfully but lowly employed . If now that all that fund from the Cape Provincial Adanything has come out of this motion it is this ministration has been exhausted . You will remember --- tha every man must cut his suit according to his clo th or,t that I said these people are now being paid by the in any event, provide for a rainy day. Transkeian Government via Pretoria, but it is unMR PAMLA: May I ask a question? fortunate that their salaries have never been revised. MR GUZANA : The dishonourable member for ava peo fro ila the our ple fun for hav ble se m We ds e no Umzimkulu wants to ask a question . own Government. We have to sympathize with our MR PAMLA: Mr Chairman , I would like to know Government there but these people do qualify for oldfrom the speaker if he is aware (1 ) that Provincial age pensions and that is why we appeal to our GovernAdministrations of the Union of South Africa had no ment that, because of their age , these people must be pension schemes for black teachers except that rubbish paid the old-age pension which must be added to the that was operated in Cape Town; and (2) that the salary payment they are getting as pension from the Provincial Administrations were not prepared to operate Republican Government. sto p- order facilities for African teachers by way of MR M. J. SIGWELA: I second the motion. insurance policies. How therefore do you expect anyMR K. M. GUZANA : Cha som body to have made provision under such condition? hon members, what I have noticeMr of the se d is thairm t an e and That is why you resigned and went in for law. people are in here to die here. Old teachers come here MR GUZANA : Mr Chairman, you heard the hon to make arrangements for themselves. I have noted me mber putting this question to the " speaker". I am sup por ting the mover from the very people who are not the speaker. You, Sir, are the Speaker of the House. that there is something they expect. (Interjections) ((Laughter) I therefore plead : Let us not put through CHAIRMAN : Order, please . The stenographer will a resolution which is going to serve as a saving basket not be able to hear. for people who have lived in comparative affluence MR GUZANA : In the first place, Mr Chairman, the during their heyday. They should have saved money. hon member responsible for this motion says that no They should not have asked the Provincial Administrachanges have ever been made in regard to the allowtion to operate a stop- order system to pay premiums ances and pensions paid these people , with the result for their policies because whenever you pass on that that they were pensioned off without their salaries responsibility to a department you are in effect admitsev pos ent two of onl sib rai Ho hs being sed. le if y w is it ting that you cannot look after yourself. Let me say the salary was taken for pension purposes? In view of quite clearly that I do not see the wisdom in this the fact that the teacher had retired at a certain notch, mot ion . Let the old- age pension go to the aged and pro por sev enths tion of his pension was worked on a twolet the pensioner who was a teacher get his pension. I do not think those teachers are without resources , 43.
because some of them are in this House after retirement. They threw their convictions overboard and joined the Government party, and here they are being handsomely looked after now but they come along and ask for the old-age pension in addition to their parliamentary salary. (Laughter) M/AGRICULTURE: How many are in parliament? MR GUZANA: They have their sessional allowance, their teacher's pension and now they want the old-age pension. What the heck! (Interjections) Now, hon members, I think we need to be responsible. I am sure this House is not going to support this motion at all. I was looking for a window to suggest it should be thrown out of the window as it deserves to be, but the best thing is to kick it out through the door. MR C. DABULA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I wish to speak on this motion. There are people who are pensioners of the Republican Government and some who get pensions from the Railways Administration, from municipalities such as Port Elizabeth and so on. MR K. M. GUZANA: He is talking about pensioners of the Republican Government. MR DABULA: It comes under a certain Act which is handled by the Government. Other people who get pensions from the Railways Administration get monthly salaries of R15. When the means test is applied it usually results in the wife of the man who receives R15 not getting a pension. There are other people who get R12 a month pension from the Railways, which means that that person gets less than the person who is paid in the Transkei, because bimonthly he gets R24. MR GUZANA: R30 every two months. This motion concerns teachers. MR DABULA : Other teachers only get R24 a month and because of the means test this results in his not getting the old-age pension. If the wife is also a teacher and she reaches the age of 60 she does not get the pension either because she is told that her husband gets the pension. CHAIRMAN: Hon member, the motion deals with pensioners from the Republican Government. It does not refer to their wives. MR DABULA: Thank you , Mr Chairman. A pensioner who gets R12 from the Republican Government gets less than the Transkeian old-age pensioner who receives R30 bimonthly. In regard to the one who gets R12 a month, deductions were made during the course of his employment for his pension, though the one who gets R30 bimonthly contributed nothing because no deduction was made from his salary. In regard to the Railways pensioner, he contributes to the pension fund by means of deductions made from his salary and it is the same in the case of the teacher. That is why we make this request on behalf of these people. I implore you to consider this matter carefully, because I know of an individual who gets only R6 a month. That R6 a month becomes R12 bimonthly. In other words, the R12 paid to this person debars him from getting the old-age pension which is R30 bimonthly. MR GUZANA: He can make his choice and surrender his pension. MR DABULA: I want to draw the attention of hon members of the House to the purpose of this motion. I am not only talking about these particular people, but about all those who receive a pension from the Republican Government. Just imagine how many people work on the railways and get a pension. According to the Acts in this connection (Acts 20 and 36 as amended) they receive a pension of R8 a month from the South African Railways. In those Acts it is provided that where a person is an employee and becomes an invalid after two years' service he is entitled to a pension. The pension is just a meagre figure because of the length of service he has had. Those are the people to whom we refer when we say they should also be entitled to the old-age pension. MR GUZANA : One or the other. Either the pension or the old-age pension, but not both. MR DABULA: No, we want both pensions, because R6 a month is far less than R30 bimonthly. MR GUZANA: Why not say that the Government must make up the shortfall? MR E. M. DEKEDA: That is what we want. MR GUZANA: The motion does not say so. MR DEKEDA: It says "old-age pension in addition
MR GUZANA: That's right, so when he is getting R14 you want him to get another R15 a month. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR DABULA: Among the teachers there are also female teachers who only receive a meagre pension. I know of a female teacher who gets only R8 a month pension. It is such people to whom I refer when I say they receive very low pensions. I am surprised at the hon the Leader of the Opposition saying those people should not receive consideration, because they are also employed by the Government. (Interjections) I am sure the people will be very glad if this matter is supported because their pensions are very small. I implore the House to support this. I hope the hon member has understood me because I am not talking only about teachers but about everybody who was employed under the Republican Government. I have in my hand a pension of one who only gets R11 a month from the Railways, and the old lady does not get any old-age pension from the Government as a result of that. I appeal to the hon members to support this because it is quite apparent that these people are not getting sufficient to live on. MR GUZANA: Not from the old-age pension from any other source, but not from the old-age pension. MR DABULA : I must appeal to the House to support the motion because these people are getting very meagre pensions. MR M. J. DUMALISILE : Mr Chairman and hon members, we wish to say something as far as this motion is concerned because even the mover of the motion fumbled quite a lot. Even his supporter who is an ex-teacher was not clear in his remarks. I do not know whether the hon members of the governing party realise that the number of those who may be entitled to receive the old-age pension is fixed even in the rural areas. Something has been said about the Railways Administration, yet this Government of ours has no railways. The people who are in receipt of pensions and who worked under the Government were paid employees and a deduction was made to provide for their pension allowance. Let us speak about an old woman who has never been employed by the Government but who has just been considered by the Government in respect of the old-age pension. The ridiculous aspect of this motion is that the person who is entitled only to the old-age pension should forego that money in order that a retired teacher should receive a pension. To quote his words, R30 must be deducted from an old-age pensioner for a person who is a government pensioner. (Interjections) If the mover said he delivered his speech in English, probably he did not understand English properly. The members who have spoken on behalf of the Government have been responsible for this muddle. You are turning yourselves into a lot of vultures and when you appeal for this pension it is because you have a personal interest. You have the funds, so why must you bring the question to this House? (Interjections)
CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR DUMALISILE: If there is any money and if you are being told there is no money then where will you get the money from that you are now applying for? When there was a lot of money to give to these people who are entitled to the old-age pension why did you keep silent? Why did you not bring this matter up then? Don't come and waste our time about irrelevant matters. There are many other matters which could be brought to this House. I suppose you are worried about the approaching independence. (Interjections) We are trying to put right your motion, hon member. Don't keep on talking whilst we are talking . Old-age pensions and money accruing to a person who has been employed cannot be treated alike. Funds paid to the aged are specifically set aside for such people. It has nothing to do with people who were able-bodied people who were employed in the service. Your employer knew you were growing old and provision was made that you should receive a pension on retirement. It is impossible that you should be allowed to receive two different pensions. MR C. DABULA: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, do you know that the Government has made arrangements for you to get the old-age pension even although you are a member of parliament?
44.
it envisages the granting of something to somebody who has been bereaved of something before. Now, it stands to reason as to how a motion of this kind can be entrusted in hands that have spoilt the very savour of the motion in that it is only worded and has no figures to substantiate it. When he moved it he should have come out with statistics to show that this happened to So-and-so. Surely there is no hon member here, and especially an elected member, who is going out to the electorate now with a gimmick, perhaps, to movesuchbut and-such a motion and he talks about teachers are the people of Nqamakwe only teachers: They are not only teachers. In fact, in the motion it is the old-age pension in addition to what they receive, but why should he presuppose or mislead the people in this way? Is he aware of what he is going to get when that is, independence what he is so infatuated with takes place? Why not word it "after independence"? In fact, I would say again that a motion of this kind can be likened to a swallow that appears in the sky at the beginning of summer. Why do I say so? I say so because, firstly, the mover of this motion should have asked himself: Is this correctly worded? Or, failing which, he should have seen to it that he had advice from his neighbours or colleagues to find out whether the motion was proper. When you have conferred with such neighbours or colleagues you will find they will give you different advice and then it will be your duty to see which advice to take. I wish to point out that if you are a member of this House you are not expected to introduce any nonsense. ( Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR MGUDLWA: It is only a nonsensical person who would bring such things into this House because a man of doubtful character might bring something that is poisonous to a communty. It would have been advisable if the mover of the motion had given particulars indicating what persons should be considered in so far as these pension allowances are concerned. (Interjections) If you were a resident of Nqamakwe you could have obtained information to indicate the different types of pensions received by government employees, whether on the Railways or anywhere else and compare the figures as far as such pensioners are concerned. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Order, hon members, order. MR MGUDLWA: I can tell you, hon members, that I was one of the teachers. I am one of those who lost money because immediately we detected that this scheme had no good features and during that time people who spoke indiscriminately were regarded as Communists and, strangely enough, some of these men were very good teachers. I contributed 15 cents a month for a number of years until I stopped teaching in 1955, but I was never .... CHAIRMAN : Hon member, what is your attitude towards the motion? MR MGUDLWA: I am coming back to the motion, Mr Chairman. This motion is one which should have had the approval of the whole House. Had it been worded properly I would have supported it, but as it is I am not in a position to support it. The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 30 March 1976.
MR DUMALISILE: I don't think you are making those arrangements for me, because I am not old yet and I am not looking for an old-age pension. No wonder you immediately supported this motion, because you are going to benefit from it We on this side of the House assume that this motion emanated from your caucus and we are surprised as to how you arrived at such a motion. Be sure that if you made no arrangements whilst you were still employed in the service this Government, which you say has no money, is not going. to give you any more money. You will remember that the teachers we are talking of used to pay R3 for a beast and that is indicative of the fact that during those days the cost of living was low. If they had saved then they would be able to make ends meet today. I was a teacher and I have never wasted my money. I used to wear a suit, not because I am now a member of parliament. I hope you are making notes as we are talking and that you will forget about what you said when you reply. Go and revise this motion and bring it back in a better form. MR W. L. SIPUKA : Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand to support the motion and I ask you to lend me your ears. I ask you not to write as the hon member asked you to write. It would appear that people do not understand the situation, particularly the last speaker against the motion. He made quite a lot of blunders. He was a teacher and how he loved the profession. The motion is an SOS to this House. In any case, gentlemen, it should be understood that the people outside are really in earnest about this. MR K. M. GUZANA: What about those inside? They are the ones talking to this motion. MR SIPUKA: There are people who do not understand or cannot distinguish between a Bantustan and an independent state and who cannot see further than the end of their noses, that is why they won't support motions of this nature. Immediately Bantu Education was introduced, Dr Verwoerd made an Act that all African teachers should not be paid any more pensions and those we are talking about narrowly escaped from these contributions. They had made contributions already. They were nearly scraped off, had it not been for Dr Verwoerd, and so they were left as they were without any more injury; but those who were employed after the Act were told there would be no more pensions until they were transferred to the Transkeian Department of Education. Those who were left under the Cape Provincial pension fund were left there at the mercy of the Provincial Council. The pensions were never increased. No-one ever said anything about them in parliament. Mr Payn, the representative for the Transkei in parliament, was disregarded and when he spoke to the speaker about it he was told that he was dead at the feet of the Afrikaners. Mr Malcomess never said anything. Mrs Ballinger never said anything. Why? Because they were afraid of being intimidated. May I bring it to the knowledge of the people who are against this that the pensioners we are talking about now were governed by the Act of 1870 and since then no improvement has been made in regard to pensions. No-one ever represented the African teacher. (Interjections) You are confused because you cannot understand that the mover put it to you that this money the pensioners receive comes to the Transkei through the Republican Government. I am therefore asking both sides of the House to consider the motion without malice but with all the force of charity. As I said, it is an SOS motion. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman, I hope the House will allow me to speak seated because I am a cripple. CHIEF G. W. NKWENKWEZI : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, since this hon member has his own crutches and can walk and stand I will ask him to take his crutches and stand. CHAIRMAN: Carry on, hon member. MR MGUDLWA: Thank you, Mr Chairman. When mosquitoes buzz around we take no notice because they only worry the tulips mostly. (Laughter) I am glad to be able to take part in this motion by the hon member for Nqamakwe. We are here assembled in parliament and perhaps outside dogs may bark, but inside they must not bark. If it were worded in a sensible manner this motion really deserves to receive the applause of the whole House because, Mr Chairman,
TUESDAY, 30 MARCH 1976 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ADMINISTRATION OF OATH CHAIRMAN: Hon paramount chiefs and hon members, I wish to advise the House that the State President has assented to the proclamation to enable the following chiefs from Glen Grey and Herschel to take their seats in this Legislative Assembly:-
From Glen Grey:- (i) Chief Zwelixolile Mpangele (ii) Chief Gwebindlala Mhlontlo (iii) Chief Manzezulu Mtirara From Herschel:- (i) Chief Mbuti Sidney Mehlomakulu 45.
(ii) Chief Mahedi Kakudi (iii) Chief Cecil Madani Manxeba It has been intimated to me that two of the chiefs from Glen Grey have not arrived as yet. Will each of these new members now come forward escorted by two members of the House to take the oath to uphold the Constitution of the Transkei. Chiefs G. Mhlontlo, M. S. Mehlomakulu, M. Kakudi and C. M. Manxeba took the oath before the Chairman of the House. ANNOUNCEMENTS
LIBODE: Chief Sidamela Robert Dlitamba
R1 080,00 p.a.
LUSIKISIKI : Chief Mpondombini Justice Sigcau Chief Stanford Sigcau
R1 080,00 p.a. 29 900,00
MATATIELE : Chief Neo Sibi Chief Matanzima Magadla Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Dumezweni Louis Lupindo
R 810,00 p.a. 99 450,00 "9 720,00 " 630,00
MOUNT AYLIFF : Chief Senyukele Churchill Jojo
CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon members, I would be failing in my duty as head of the Transkeian State if I did not take this opportunity to express a word of welcome to the chiefs who have come from the two districts which have been annexed to the Transkei. All the chiefs from Lady Frere are heads of tribes under the Tembu chieftainship and those from Herschel are also heads of tribes which are related by consanguinity to the tribes of the Transkei . The Hlubi chiefs are related to their kinsmen in Matatiele and Mount Fletcher, and the Sotho chiefs are also related to their close kinsmen in Matatiele and Mount Fletcher, and so are the Tembu in Herschel chiefs who are related to chiefs in Engcobo and Xalanga districts and Matatiele district. As regards the elected members, elections will be conducted on 21 April 1976. Glen Grey will be represented by three elected members and Herschel by two. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN : Hon members, there is an urgent request from the magistrate of this district which has just arrived. He is requesting the urgent release of the following members :- Paramount Chief S. Dalindyebo, Chief B. Dalindyebo, Headman W. Z. Lufefeni and Headman M. Makaula. They are required for a period of one hour in the court house. What is the feeling of the House? Agreed to.
MOUNT FLETCHER: Chieftainess Contance Lebenya Chief Matheusen Sizwe Zibi MOUNT FRERE : Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe
QUESTIONS QUESTION NO. 1 : Mr. H. H. Zibi asked the Chief Minister: "How much are the monthly stipends of the respective chiefs who are members of the Legislative Assembly excluding their Parliamentary emoluments and also specify the districts from which they come?" REPLY : REPLY: "Chiefs who are members of the Legislative Assembly are paid amounts varying according to the number of taxpayers from R360,00 to R1 080,00 per annum as follows: BIZANA: Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Makosonke Sigcau Chief Calara Nomagqwatekana Chief Daliwonga Mlindazwe Chief Jongilizwe Ntola
R1 080.00 540,00 1 080,00 810,00 540,00
BUTTERWORTH : Chief Havington Z. Zulu
R1 080,00 p.a.
ELLIOTDALE: Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala
-
FLAGSTAFF : Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Gwebizilwana Sigcau Chief David Nonkonyana
-
R 630,00 p.a. 630,00
KENTANI : Chief Gwadana Dondashe
-
R 810,00
-
R 990,00 p.a. R 900,00 630,00 630,00 450,00 720,00
NGQELENI : Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Chief Douglas D. Ndamase Chief Derrick Z. Ndamase
R1 080,00 p.a. 1 080,00 99 810,00
NQAMAKWE: Chief Mtutuzeli Hardington Ngcongolo
R1 080,00 p.a.
QUMBU: Chief Welsh Matiwane Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Charles Ludidi Chieftainess Angelinah Moshesh Chief Sandy Majeke
R1 080,00 720,00 810,00 450,00 450,00
ST. MARKS: Chief Kaulele Mgudlwa Chief George Siyabalala Chief Ngangomhlaba Matanzima
-
R 540,00 p.a. 720,00 99 1 080,00
TABANKULU: Chief Zwelabantu Diko Chief Ntsikayezwe Sigcau
--- R1 080,00 p.a. 1 080,00
TSOLO: Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Chief Godfrey Mafu Mabandla
-
R1 080,00 p.a. 630,00
-
R1 080,00 p.a.
UMZIMKULU : Chief Solomon Msingapantsi Chief Petros Jozana Chief Zwelinzima Setuse Chief Msudukeni Dlamini WILLOWVALE: Chief Khalakhulu T. Sigcaų XALANGA: Chief Bonani N. Gecelo Chief Xego Sami Moni
R1 080,00 p.a. 1 080,00 99 99 810,00
IDUTYWA: Chief Mveyishi Bonkolo Chief Qombolo Sigidi
R1 080,00 p.a. 39 900,00
MQANDULI : Chief Sicitana C. Dalasile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Danisile Gobidolo Chief David Mrazuli
UMTATA: Chief Albert B. Dalindyebo
R 630,00 p.a. 1 080,00 99 990,00 -
R 990,00
p.a. " 99 19 "9
p.a. 99 " "
TSOMO: Chief Wiseman G. Nkwenkwezi
p.a. " 99 19 29
R1 080,00 p.a.
ENGCOBO: Chief Sithembele Mgudlwa Chief Mzikayise Dalasile Chief Mdanjelwa Mtirara
-
720,00 540,00 540,00 810,00 -
p.a. " 99 "9
720,00 p.a.
R 450,00 p.a. 990,00
MR L. L. MGUDLWA: Arising from the reply, Mr Chairman, I would like to know how these inconsistent amounts are arrived at in view of the fact that all these - so many rands, and they are called "Chief So-and-so” --are inconsistent. How are the figures arrived at? ACTG C/MINISTER: Mr Chairman, I hope and wish that the people from Engcobo have now realised that one of their members of parliament sleeps in this House when people are talking. I shall repeat the pre-
99 46.
amble to these figures : "Chiefs who are members of the Legislative Assembly are paid amounts varying according to the number of taxpayers from R360 to R1 080 per annum as follows ..." So if you don't understand English, you don't understand Xhosa , we shall resort to Nyasa. ESTI QUMr. NO. i ask 2: ed the Minister of Education :H.ON H. Zib "Will the Minister furnish the House with a statet ment on curren events in respect of the Clarkebury Training School to obviate possible confusion emanating from Press Statements and other sources of information ?" Y :laints were made by a number of P.T.C. 1 Comp RE"PL students that they had been failed for being absent during the November 1975 examinations. They were then instructed by the Principal not to return . These students claimed that they had been discriminated against and that they had not been absent during the
ons ati ult mina res exaAs . of these complaints a meeting, presided by the Honourable the Chief Minister was held in the Board Room on 12 February 1976. The Principal of Clarkebury Training School was reported sick and unable to attend. Resolutions passed by the meeting were :1. The Parents should report to the Secretary for Education for a final decision in connection with the re-admittance of their children/wards. 2. The Education Department is to conduct a thorough investigation into the affairs of the
REPLY : "(a)
Number of Population per voters per district District 97 980 40 949 39 087 01 BIZANA H 838 21 RT WO ER TT 02 BU 42416 4 48 29 LE 03 ELLIOTDA 98 128 048 60 65 214 04 ENGCOBO 4 34 89 51 161 05 FLAGSTAFF 051 38 59749 06 IDUTYWA 44 210 59 791 07 KENTANI 33 052 78 937 08 LÍBODE 6 44 80 09 UMZIMKULU 125 608 55 857 I SIK IKI 10 LUS 82 660 42 943 11 MATATIELE 39912 20 536 FF LI 12 MT. AY 67 660 3 34 36 ER CH ET 13 MT. FL 73 844 9 41 59 14 MT. FRERE 66 002 35 321 77 549 15 MQANDULI 6 39 75 55 210 16 NGQELENI 1 33 98 32 486 17 NQAMAKWE 5 17 46 18 PORT ST. JOHNS 64 281 38 224 67 483 19 QUMBU 47 011 20 ST. MARKS 68 468 (COFIMVABA) 34 545 21 TABANKULU 63 128 35 588 41 528 22 TSOLO 27 823 94 908 23 TSOMO 3 93 45 24 UMTATA 77 293 6 66 51 LE WVA LIO 25 WIL 35 093 8 83 26 26 XALANGA (Cala) 76 827 4 99 29 27 HERSCHEL 103 438 3 54 50 28 GLEN GREY 1 905 841 1 059 298 TOTAL.. n I may mentio that during the 1973 election , a total number of 952 369 voters were registered in comparison
. cation Department is to appoint an Actscheool Edu 3. Th ing Principal for the School. Steps taken by the Department of Educaton were: 1. After many examination irregularites were found , e.g. 28 students marked absent for arithmetic had actually written the subject , and not having all the examination scripts available , the Department decided to re-admit all the P.T.C. 1 students and to promote them to P.T.C. II. This has been done. 2. The financial affairs of the school are being ind ves ingate Pri. ncipal has been appointed. " Acttig MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman , arising from the reply by the hon the Minister of Education , may I know who constituted the committee which sat in the boardroom; if there were representatives , what bodies or concerns did they represent? Furthermore I would like to know if the promotion of these pupils from PTC 1 to PTC 2 is final or conditional . May we know what the apparent financial irregularities are which have founded the financial investigation which 3.
is now being proceeded with? KO : Write down your question. MR C. DI MR GUZANA: The hon member for Tabankulu is not the Minister for Education . He is only a pseudo Minister. (Laughter) I suppose when a person confesses his or her sins to him he calls upon them to write
with the latest 1 059 298 . (b) All valid registration cards received from returning officers in respect of persons who have registered since the last general clection have been processed and will appear in the latest voters roll." MR H. H. ZIBI : Mr Chairman , I quite appreciate the reply in so far as those registered after the last general election are concerned . What about those who had already registered but who did not appear in the voters' roll at the time of the last general election? M/HEALTH : The reply is still the same. They are also entitled to go and register and , as it says here, they will appear in the latest voters' roll.
QUESTION NO. 4: Chief Ngangomhlaba Mbuzo Matanzima asked the er of Agriculture anme ry :Min"ist nt est ce it is Governd For (a) Sin policy that all the dry parts of the Transkei should fall under irrigation nts what arrangeme have been made by the Department of Agriculture and Forestry in connection with training of Agricultural officers in irrigation. Exeperience has shown that Agriculture practised in a dry area is not the same as practised in parts of the country? (b) If there are such officers when will they commence duties since irrigation is already being being practised in parts of the country?
ATsIO ir sin wn theUC . N : Mr Chairman , in view of the doM/ED fact that the questions put to me by the leader of the New Democratic Party are so lengthy I feel it would be appropriate that I must have time to have them written down so that I can answer them to the best of
(c) If there are none why.is it so?" REPLY : TRAINING OF AGRICULTURAL OFFICERS IN IRRIGATION :
his satisfaction. ES QUMr 3: ed the Minister of the Interior :i ask NO. .TI H. Zib H.ON "(a) Will the Minister give statistics of Registered Voters per district for all the districts consisting the present Transkei and also population figures per district as well as for the Transkei as a
“All Agricultural Officers trained at the Agricultural College receive training in irrigation farming as part of their basic course . However, practical training was limited to flood irrigation system only. In view of the fact that sprinkler irrigation is to be applied at the Ncora Irrigation Scheme and portion of the Qamata Irrigation Scheme , the course has been ajusted so that
ate?steps have been taken for the inclusion (b) Wh whol into the Voters Roll of the registered voters who do not appear when the last General Election took place?" 47.
from 1976 practical training of students at the College will include sprinkler irrigation as well. As far as inservice training is concerned of staff stationed at Qamata, this is a continual process where weekly talks play a major role. The Department would like to intensify inservice training and for this purpose the Public Service Commission has already been approached to create the post of Training Officer. The creation of this post has not yet been approved. The Department has succeeded in obtaining the cooperation of private instances (XDC) to assist with in-service training to commence in May 1976. The Department is fully aware of the need for further training of staff in irrigation practises but due to the shortage of suitably qualified staff is hampered in intensifying training to the standard it would like to achieve."
REPLY:
"(a) Yes. (b) By decision of the Cabinet. (c) Yes. (d) As the private clinic was erected first. (e) Departmental Clinic 20c. As the private clinic does not fall under my Department I am unable to advise on the fees charged." MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, arising out of the reply given by the hon the Minister of Health, may I know whether it is the Cabinet or the Department of Health which decides whether or not to close down a health clinic run by the department? A propos the reply to question (d), may I know if private clinics in other parts of the Transkei which had been established before a departmental clinic was established have enjoyed the immunity of preference over departmental clinics? I ask this question as a result of the declared policy of the Department of Health which is to the effect that departmental health clinics must take precedence over private clinics, to the extent of a private clinic being closed down. I ask that because private clinics, as the hon the Minister of Health has said, do not fall under the supervision of health inspectors who go through the districts. M/HEALTH: With regard to the first question put by the hon the Leader of the Opposition, it is not always where the Cabinet decides issues for a department, but only if a Minister of a department feels there are certain aspects of the matter whereby he requires the Cabinet's approval. This was the case in this particular instance. I may mention that this clinic was not erected by this Government through its Department of Health, but was erected by the Department of Bantu Administration before. we acquired the Department of Health in the Transkei. Further, this was done without any consultation with the tribal authority, hon member sitting behind me that is, Chief Zulu. MR GUZANA: You mean the closure? M/HEALTH : I mean the erection of this state clinic. It so transpired that the head of the tribal authority appealed to the department that there seemed to be a duplication of clinic services in his area, and he expressed a feeling that they were satisfied with the services of Mrs Nondayi, the owner of the private clinic. They thereupon requested that the state clinic must be removed from the area to some other place which the department might select. (Interjections) Mr Chairman, I am trying to explain and this hon member for Engcobo is making a noise. Despite the fact that my feeling was that the people would better benefit by a state clinic I could not water down the feelings of the tribal authority. It was then that I took the matter to my Cabinet for its decision and approval. It must be noted that the tribal authorities are the watchdogs of this Government. I may add that the decision of the Cabinet was that this clinic must close down. Coming to the second question, which was a bit lengthy, I can but say that in this very House I expressed it as my policy that clinics should be erected in each and every area. A person then might be correct - as the hon the Leader of the Opposition is correct in asking whether it is correct to close down services where there are no other services. We have never had this duplication of services in so far as clinics are concerned - that is, private and state clinics. Before we intend putting up a clinic we send out the nurses to survey the area to make sure there are no private clinics in the area and, in view of the shortage of health services in the Transkei, if there is a clinic in that particular area we pass on to the next area which is without any clinic whatsover. I must agree with the hon the Leader of the Opposition that it is correct that these private clinics must fall under some form of control but, as laid down in the Republican Health Act, there is no provision which actually governs private clinics. It is only when I shall introduce our own Health Act for the Transkei that some form of control will be provided for in that Act. Somebody here said they are "shebeen" clinics, but I can assure him they are really performing a necessary service. I believe I have replied sufficiently to the question, Mr Chairman. MR GUZANA: Will the hon the Minister of Education please note.
QUESTION NO. 5: Mr. H. H. Zibi asked the Minister of Education:"(a) As there are many students every year, who on attaining_suitable qualifications, desire to enter teacher Training Schools but are unable to get accommodation in such schools, what steps is the Department taking to relieve this distressing state of affairs? (b) Has the Maluti Training Institution become a Tribal School? If so why, and if not why is there such attitude by the powers that be?” REPLY: "(a) Teacher Training in all countries is geared to the needs of the Department not on the wishes of individual parents or pupils. Accommodation is considered insufficient at the existing schools to satisfy the needs of the Department. It should be appreciated that the Department cannot expand the existing Training Schools at the moment and produce more teachers than can be employed.
(b) NO. But preference is given to Sotho-speaking pupils as there is no other training school to which they can go in that area." QUESTION NO. 6: Mr. H. H. Zibi asked the Minister of Roads and Works :"Is there any hope in the foreseable future of the National Road between Matatiele and Maclear (through Mt. Fletcher) being macadamized? If so when and if not why after so many repeated promises over the years? REPLY : "This is not a Transkei Government road however the Cape Provincial Administration has intimated that in view of the economy measures which have to be applied at present no funds are available for this road during the 1976/77 financial year. The road will however, enjoy high priority on the programme for 1977/ 78." QUESTION NO. 7: Mr. K. M. N. Guzana asked the Minister of Health: "(a) Whether the Government Department of HealthClinic in Mgagasi Administrative Area, which served Mgagasi, Tanga and part of Nqamakwe Administrative Areas, has been closed down? and if so: (b) Why it was closed down? (c) Whether it is correct that a Mrs. Nondayi is running a private clinic in the same area, and if so: (d) Why a private clinic is being preferred over a Department of Health-clinic? (e) What where the charges for services rendered by the Department of Health-clinic and the charges for services rendered by the private clinic?"
48.
QUESTION NO. 8:
property belonging to persons other than Bantu persons are, except for a few exceptions, notably property belonging to the South African Bantu Trust, excluded from its jurisdiction. In view of the fact that most of the State property which previously belonged to the South African Bantu Trust now falls under the control of the Transkeian Government the effect of the amendment is that a Chief's Court will be able to try any offence committed by a Bantu person involving property belonging to the Transkeian Government e.g. intentional damage and cutting of fences in contravention of the Transkei Agricultural Development Act 10 of 1966 as amended.
Mr. R. S. Madikizela asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:"(a) Whose responsibility is it to organise the Stock sales that are held in the various centres throughout the Transkei from time to time? (b) What are the rights of the citizens of the Transkei in respect of participating in these sales as buyers and by way of bidding? (c) If any rights exist are the auctioneers aware of such rights? (d) Is there need for a licence where no speculation is sought?"
The amendment also affects the penal jurisdiction of the Chief's Court in that the reference to livestock is being deleted as it presents accounting problems. This is especially so in view of the provisions of section 9(2) of the Transkei Authorities Act No. 4 of 1965 which requires all fines imposed by a Chief's Court to be paid into Tribal Authority funds and for official receipts to be issued. If a fine of livestock is imposed it is not possible to issue an official receipt and the practice is wide open to abuse.
REPLY : "(a) The responsibility to organise Stock sales held in the various centres throughout the Transkei is vested in the Department of Agriculture. (b) Citizens of the Transkei are free to bid and buy at all these sales. (c) The Auctioneers are fully aware of the fact that Transkei citizens may participate in these sales. (d) To purchase stock at these sales, a licence is not required, but to introduce stock into any area in the Transkei a "non-objection" issued by the respective Agricultural Officer concerned is required and must be presented to the Stock Inspector at the Sale."
On the other hand the penal jurisdiction of this court is being increased to a maximum penalty of R60 in keeping with the general rise in administrative costs. Mr. Chairman this is indeed a very short amendment and I would not like to waste your time with a long speech and I now move that the Bill be read a second time.
QUESTION NO. 9: Chief G. W. Nkwenkwezi asked the Minister of Justice:"1. How many criminal cases during the year 1975 were the result of jabulani at Jabulani Beer Halls? 2. How many in each district?" 3. If any fines have been paid, are these going to be paid to the Transkei Government?
MR M. J. DUMALISILE: Mr Chairman and hon members, in view of the short amendment having been submitted by the hon the Minister of Justice and in view of the fact that the Act itself, No 38 of 1927, was promulgated so long ago that there is not one in this House who was there at the time, this side of the House has no qualms about it. In fact, we only sympathize with the chiefs who have been getting some hamels and goats and so on from these criminals. We do hope that in the event of this being amended we shall have to prove our fines. For example, Butterworth could only collect R119 during the year for fines. We go further to Matatiele where, at Hlangwini, only R45 was collected in fines for the year. M/HEALTH : Can't you see there are no criminals there. MR DUMALISILE : So, Mr Chairman, we support this amendment bill because this will improve the total of fines in all the districts. MR N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to commend this amendment bill. It is quite evident that it will correct many shortcomings in connection with the tribal authorities, particularly in regard to the careless people who go about cutting fences and damaging government property. These people took a mean advantage by surresptitiously paying something over to the tribal authorities and that causes problems as far as the prevention of damage to government property is concerned. The procedure will now be clear, particularly as cash fines will be paid and receipts issued. At other times these people used to pay a fine in the form of a beast. When you consider the value of a beast today, which could be as much as R200, it is made clear that the fine will not exceed R60. This will be an improvement as far as the people are concerned. For that reason we commend this amendment bill. Put and agreed to. The bill was read a second time. M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, the committee stage will be tomorrow, or so soon thereafter as the matter can be heard,
REPLY: "1. No statistics are kept which show to what extent any particular kind of liquor contributes to the occurrence of crime. 2. Falls away. 3. Falls away." QUESTION NO. 10: Chief S. C. Dalasile to ask the Minister of the Interior:"Why is it that people who have applied for pensions and have been accepted by the Magistrate in the Tribal Authority Court do not receive their pension payment? REPLY : "It may be that Magistrates have approved of pension applications notwithstanding incorrect information being furnished by the applicants. In such cases my Department has no alternative but to refer the erroneous applications back to the relevant Magistrates, resulting in a delay in finalizing the applications. Those applications which are in order are approved of by my Department as soon as possible after receipt thereof and applicants normally receive their pension payments during the payperiod following the month of approval. Enquiries by applicants should be directed to the Magistrates where the initial applications are lodged. " TRANSKEIAN BANTU ADMINISTRATION AMENDMENT BILL, 1976:
SECOND READING
PAYMENT OF OLD-AGE PENSIONS TO RECIPIENTS OF REPUBLICAN GOVERNMENT PENSIONS
M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, Honourable Paramount Chiefs and Honourable Members, I rise to move the second reading of the Transkeian Bantu Administration Amendment Bill, 1976.
The debate was resumed. CHAIRMAN : Hon members, I have a feeling that this motion was thoroughly canvassed pesterday. If that is the feeling of the House also I shall call upon the mover to reply.
Although in terms of Section 20 of the Bantu Administration Act, 1927 (Act No. 38 of 1927) a Chief's Court has jurisdiction to try statutory offences these powers are greatly limited by the fact that offences involving
49.
MR C. DIKO : Why don't you buy books for them? MR JAFTA: In this way the country is deprived of their potential services. Right throughout the world education is the duty of the State and it is for that reason we are surprised that the Transkei does not extend this privilege. As I have stated, these books are usually locked up in the school and the children have no books to refer to when they are out of school. You will note that exercise books bought for the lower classes are usually completed faster than in the higher classes. MR H. PAMLA: Mr Chairman, I would like the hon member to indicate precisely the classes that do not receive free books from the Government. He is leaving us in darkness. You have admitted that some do get free books now tell us which classes. MR JAFTA : Mr Chairman, I will not allow myself to be led astray by what the hon member is saying. I was saying that exercise and notebooks are very expensive. These pupils have to pay for these books although they come from poor homes. It also surprises us that the Government does not shoulder responsibility for the education of our children, because our people are very poor. There are certain books which these children have to pay for such as those, for instance, in which they write compositions. It is necessary for them to have two or three of these books at a time. There are setbooks in English, Xhosa and Afrikaans and it is necessary that these children should have such setbooks. All those books are very expensive. It happens that some parents have a number of children to send to school and it is the responsibility of the parents to pay for their books. The children have also to buy other books. With regard to the higher classes from Stds 8 to 10, the children have to pay other moneys to the school and that is a burden upon the parents. It surprises us when we find that even we, poor as we are, have to pay for these books. (Interjections) The hon Minister remarks that I am not a poor person. I know some people who are judged by their appearance to have money, but when you compare those people with others you will find they are not so wealthy. I say that pupils in Stds 8 to 10 pay the full price for their books. The debate was adjourned.
MR E. M. DEKEDA: Mr Chairman and hon members, it has been agreed by this House that the request in this motion is a necessary step. Nobody has been able to tell us that the scales of retired people who do receive some pension have ever been revised. We are all agreed that the old people who were pensioned some twenty years ago were paid according to certain scales. We are also agreed that in a number of cases the salary scales have been revised. We do know also that the cost-of-living allowance for people who have been pensioned in the Transkeian Government has been increased from R180 to R360. It is very pathetic to know that all those people who received their pensions before the Transkeian Government came into being received, and are still receiving, only R10 cost-of- living. It is on those grounds, Mr Chairman, that we are requesting the Transkeian Government to add at least the old-age pension to those small pensions received by our old people. We are not depriving our aged of their pensions we are only asking for some more to add. We have been told there is the question of the means test which is going to obstruct these people from getting the old-age pension. It is on that score that we are asking this House to agree to this because, as was suggested by the hon the Leader of the Opposition, these people have been earning a substantial wage before their retirement. Anybody who knew how these people were paid by the Provincial Administration will remember that the starting salary was about R10 a month and at the age when they were pensioned they were receiving not more than R60 a month. Because of the fraction of two-sevenths of the salary, a man who was earning R42 when he was pensioned would receive only R12. I am sure this motion will receive the sympathy of the House because we are now quite clear that these old people have never had any salaries from which they could save. I do not want to compare the present pension scales of Transkeians who have been pensioned because they are the best in the world. These people who were pensioned 20 or 30 years ago are our people and they are starving. We therefore ask the Government to give them some relief. Motion put and carried unanimously.
PROVISION OF FREE BOOKS IN ALL TRANSKEIAN SCHOOLS
AFTERNOON SESSION
The debate on the Provision of Free Books in all Transkeian Schools was resumed. MR N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I shall continue with the motion that children should be supplied with free books and I am acting in sympathy with poor parents who have children at school. I have already stated that we have children who would like to continue at school but on account of financial circumstances are unable to do so. For example, a Std 1 child pays up to R3 for books and it is likely that the same parent may have three other children at school. Similarly with a child in Std 2, where the cost of books may amount to R5 and it may happen that that is not the only child that parent has at school. Again, the same conditions apply to a Std 3 child who has to pay R8 for books, and so you find that as the grade increases so does the cost of the books. An amount of R20 per child is paid by the Government as a subsidy, but at times the Government does not pay the total amount of R20 but only a portion of it, and the balance is returned to the coffers of the Government. It is our submission that the total amount of R20 per child should be paid so that it can meet other contingencies. Whilst I was speaking some people asked me where this money would come from. The money comes from the Government and the Government so arranges its budget that the money is available. Even now when the Estimates of Expenditure are considered it will be found that the amount allocated for education is greater than the amount estimated for other departments. Besides that, as far as this amount is concerned, it would appear that a large amount has been allocated for education but when it comes to practical use it is just a drop in the ocean. There are many requirements in this department in regard to finance, but even now we are making application so that this money can be set aside by this department. As far as the progress of the people is concerned, this is the most important department. There is nothing more worthy than nursing the mental growth
MR N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman, I crave your indulgence to allow me to proceed with this motion after lunch as time is short. M/HEALTH : Mr Chairman, I feel 15 minutes is ample. If the hon member does not finish he can carry on after lunch. (Interjections) He can easily finish in five minutes. MR JAFTA: I move accordingly:— "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government be requested to supply free books to all our schools from Sub-std A up to Std 10." I make this request, Mr Chairman, well knowing that it affects all parents who have children at school. I know that certain reading books are being issued free by the Government at the present time, but these reading books are not sufficient to meet all the needs of the children. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, hon member. Order, please. I again appeal to hon members to behave in this House. When any member is on the floor he should be listened to by hon members and this gossip, this dialogue among the members is really uncalled for. I implore members to please behave. I warn them, in fact, to behave. MR JAFTA: Mr Chairman, I was stating that the reading books supplied by the Government are taken away from the children when school is over and locked up in the cupboards. That means the child has no opportunity to study at home. It is of great importance that the children should do preparation at home to add to the lessons given in class. There are many children who are anxious to acquire education - far more than about 20 years ago - and this shows a good spirit. Some children miss education on account of the poverty of their parents who cannot afford to pay the necessary fees, but you will find that amongst the children who have not been able to attend school there may be some who are brilliant and would be able to acquire a higher standard of education. 50.
MR MGUDLWA: Now, Mr Chairman, I must submit that be it a motion by the Opposition or by a member opposite, it must in fact be a motion of this kind that we must agree. CHIEF S. C. JOJO: On a point of order, Mr Chairman CHAIRMAN : Take your seat, chief. There is no point of order. MR MGUDLWA: Woe betide, in fact, any member who will come out with any support to the amendment which has been brought by the hon member for Butterworth, Mr Sixmonths, and if anything is worth that butter it is worth nothing. (Laughter) MR R. MADIKIZELA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I rise to support the amendment by the hon member for Butterworth. It evidently occurred to the hon member for Qumbu in his sleep to bring this motion to this House. The caucus of the New Democratic Party without consideration decided to pass this motion. They merely called it a good motion. There are many good things in life, but you go in for these good things after due consideration. The hon member seeks free education for the children of the Transkei - a good idea in itself but free education needs money and the hon member has not given us any idea as to how to raise these moneys. He has not given us any figures to support his case. When you think in terms of free education you have to think of the number of children in Sub A. Not only must think of the number at your own school, not only at the schools in your own tribal authority area, not only the children at schools within your regional authority, but also the children in the schools throughout the entire Transkei in Sub A. How much money do you need each year for Sub A? You have to make the same calculation for Std 1 , 2, 3 up to the last standard. Now, I ask how much money do you need for that project? The moment you think in terms of free education you must also think in terms of taxation : Taxation to meet the requirements of free education. We have no compulsory education yet in the Transkei , desirable though that might be. Now, we pass the motion by the hon member for Qumbu in this Chamber, we decide to put up taxation to meet the cost of free education. The natives of Qumbu who have no interest in education will start to squeal. (Laughter) They will say the hon member for Qumbu because he is interested in education, is calling upon them to pay for free education. We are aware of the advantages of free education. Indeed this is practised in most of the advanced countries, but preparations have to be made before the step is started, and that step is via taxation. When the hon member for Qumbu has given us the figures we require, both in respect of the pupils in the Transkei and those at school at the present moment --when he shall have given us the figures as to the amount of money we require to see that this project is set afoot, then this whole House will give him support. That is why the hon member for Butterworth has given him six months in which to go and make a study of his subject. If he is not ready within six months he will ask for another six, (Laughter) but when he is ready I wish to assure him he wil get the support of the Government party. MR P. N. NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support this motion and I say we should do away with the amendment. This amendment which defers this for six months spoils the motion. The Government has money, particularly as far as our children are concerned who are being educated for the future at a time when we shall be no more. The money which the Government has is sufficient to carry on with this work. We are paying taxes and we want our taxes to be utilized to buy these books so that the children are properly educated. Our money is being used to put up those skyscrapers and we don't know what they are being built for; It is likely that where they have built those palaces they will go and eat sheep contributed by the people. (Laughter) As far as this amendment is concerned, if we as people of the Transkei had money we would send our children to England and elsewhere overseas to study. This motion aims at helping a lot of people who have no money whatsoever so that they will be in a position to send their children to school. When one takes one's children to school you will find it is usually the practice that the parent is asked to provide clothing for the child as well as other
of the child. For that reason I request the Government to see the advisability of making arrangements so that our children can acquire the necessary education. I ask you to agree with the principle involved in my motion. That is my request. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I second the motion. MR S. W. MBANGA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to propose an amendment to the motion as such: "That this motion be read six months hence." Mr Chairman, the House will recall that this motion has been thoroughly discussed in the past and there is an agreement between all parties in this House that matters pertaining to delicate issues such as education will be discussed in this atmosphere. It will also be recalled by hon members that where all of us are concerned in this fashion, then agreements of this kind should not be broken. All the hon members here are parents and without exception they are experiencing the difficulty of paying for books to educate their children. One would not like to go back into the background whereby our education has been discriminately treated by those powers that were, but this Government has, within its financial abilities, attempted to solve the question of supplying free books. It is on record that from Sub-std A to Std 7 a kind of free supply is being maintained, but this Government is acutely aware of the unfairness of making some parents pay for the books of their children. This Government is also aware of the fact that elsewhere, almost all over the Republic now, books are supplied free to schools from Sub-std A to Matric. This Government also has its priorities in order and they are working to a point where in future all books from the lowest class to Std 10 will be supplied free; hence this side of the House has requested this House that the motion shall be read six months from now. In fact, if we base all else on the way it has gone before, we should be regarding the matter as purely departmental. I reiterate, Mr Chairman, that we should allow this motion to be read six months hence. MR R. MADIKIZELA: I second the amendment, Mr Chairman. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon members, of course I have to vehemently go against the amendment. The last speaker has categorically told this House that this is a very, very important and contentious issue in so far as education of our children is concerned, and as such it has to be treated as such urgently, if at all we are serious. This affects education and on educational matters we always are ad idem. Education is what remains of the past working in the present to shape the future. It is not that education cares much for what remains of the past more than what is for the future - that is, posterity. I am very glad that the hon Minister of this education we are talking about ― that is, free books, free books, free books we must get free books, in fact. (Laughter) How many of us would have been educated in Std 10? But I have only pased my Std 7 now. (Laughter) I am speaking, in fact, on the law of averages so far as this House is concerned. It is very important, Mr Chairman, that our children must have free books from Sub A to Matric level if we have a university of our own, which perhaps we will never have. Six months hence has a bearing on that because it carries an illusion in its train. There was the Pik Botha statement at the United Nations first of all Mr Vorster and then Pik Botha that discrimination would end in six months and, in fact, we are still being discriminated against. (Laughter If the hon member for Butterworth is Mr Sixmonths he must come out and say he is no longer Mr Mbanga. (Laughter) Mr Chairman, if these things affect the people we represent, we represent them from the day we are appointed - not six months hence - and whatever duty is thrust upon us is a trust, and you don't have to betray a trust, in fact. We have an oath there which we must not betray because it is an oath of faith and trust. It is only if and so far as when that oath was administered you can come out in this House and say: No, I will carry this out after six months. Woe unto you there. You are an elected member. GOVT MEMBERS: What did you have for lunch? CHAIRMAN: Order, please.
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the Government. I want to support the amendment that we allow the mover to go back and study what is going on outside and then he shall have to tell us exactly which books are supplied free and which are not. It would appear to me that the mover of the motion is not interested in the schools. I say that because last week on Saturday I was at the school near my home where the committee met to discuss and find out the number of books missing. All the class readers in the Transkei schools since 1965 to 1976 have been supplied free to the schools, therefore the motion is wrong. When the principal of a school is careless in his work the books are taken by the teachers in the afternoon and locked up in the cupboard, but where the principal of the school, working together with the community, is aware of his work the books are given to the children to take home. When any book is lost by the child then the parent of the child is responsible for the repayment of that book and that is not the responsibility of the schools themselves but the school committees must be involved. I am trying to support the amendment and the hon member must go back and study and get himself interested and involved in the school. I admit there are some books which are bought by the children. I shall leave that to the mover to study which books are provided free and which books must be bought by the pupil , but here he says free books must be supplied to all our schools. Mr Chairman , we shall give the mover six months to go and study and he shall come back and tell us what the position is. CHAIRMAN : Hon members, it would appear that there are no speakers from the Opposition side. In the premises I shall call upon the mover to reply. MR N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to reply to the discussion in this matter. I have made clear the importance of this motion and others have agreed that the motion is an important one. They spoke about compulsory education. I know there is compulsory education in some places but I also see that the time is premature for such education here. What I want now is a necessity for today to people who have agreed to their children going to school without being forced. In such cases people deserve to be assisted by this House in such a way that books are supplied free of charge. I have mentioned the fact that the Government does supply some books free, but I made it plain that this was insufficient because the children still have to pay for some of the books. What I am therefore hoping for is that this House will agree that the Government should pay the full amount for the books, instead of merely a portion. It is a great necessity that poeple should be encouraged in educational matters and that is why I bring this motion and I ask that this House should accept in principle what I say, then we can decide how to proceed later on. That is the gist of my proposal. It is not necessary for me to hammer this matter because we all see the necessity for the line I am taking. All I ask is that in budgeting for education this should be taken into account because such a procedure has already been followed in the past. That is why I have brought this matter into this House. CHAIRMAN: The question is a motion by the hon member for Qumbu , Mr N. Jafta, to which an amendment was moved by the hon member for Butterworth. I shall put the amendment first. Amendment put and accepted. Motion as amended put and carried.
necessities, although the parent has no money. You will find that everything has become exceptionally dear. These books are very expensive when you bear in mind that most of these children have only their widowed mothers to look after them. You will find it the practice that these widows will go into the towns and take jobs as washerwomen in order to send their children to school. What sort of pay do these widows get in the towns? You will find that they will work for the whole year in order to raise funds to send their children to school and they hardly have any clothes of their own to wear. That is why I commend this motion, because it will be for the benefit of our children. We were very pleased when we heard of compulsory education as we are aware that any country progresses through education. I can mention such countries. The wise people in Egypt decided to remove their king and then Nasser took over and said the Egyptians should go in for education. He raised the standard of Egypt. Then the Egyptians continued with education until Sadat took over the rule of the country. Now those Egyptians have been educated we wish to follow suit. You are men who are expecting independence and if these children have no education, how will we fare with independence? If you say this money shall not be used for educational purposes, what do you propose it should be used for? Where did you get this money which you are going to spend on celebrations for the coming independence? This very money you are going to use there should be used for education . Even the money which will be used to give the chiefs these hamels should be utilized for education . (Laughter) They say there is no money and a man is not ashamed to say this motion should be reintroduced in six months. The motion should be carried out now and I appeal to you to use your discretion so that this education will materialize . Please, hon members, be converted into doing this. In all cultured countries such a motion would be received unanimously. Look at the white people with whom we live here . They get free education. Go to Johannesburg and you will find this exists there too . Why do you refuse? Even other races such as the Coloured people give free education to their children. What kind of people are you who do not understand? Why do you allow the Devil to play the fool with you? (Laughter) Why do you refuse when you are being led through the proper channels? You are educated and I am uneducated, but I have a better understanding than you. (Laughter) I have gained experience because I have travelled in many countries. I can compete with a man with a B.A. degree. I am discussing this motion and I am asking you to agree with this motion and remove the amendment. Do think seriously, because this motion deals with the education of your own children. Remember that that includes the widows who are responsible for educating their own children. Remember that the fathers of some of these children died during the Second World War and others died a natural death. Think seriously of what it will be like for the widows CHAIRMAN: Hon member, you are repeating yourself. If you have fresh points, please proceed. MR NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman, I am attempting to draw the attention of these hon members to the fact that this motion is of great importance. If I am repeating myself it is because I wish to emphasize it. MR E. M. DEKEDA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I fail to see why this motion was ever discussed in this House . Anyway, I would like to support the amendment because the mover of the amendment was not present when the mover of the motion was discussing it. I submit to this House that this motion is wrong. When a member of the House wants to move anything in the House I think that hon member should take the trouble to find out what is going on in that particular department. What does it help the people of the Transkei when an hon gentleman will come here and move that free books should be supplied to children from Sub A to Std 8 when we know they are supplied now? I would have advised the hon member to go back to some of the schools and find out what the position is. Anyway, when he tried to motivate his motion he agreed that books are supplied free but they are taken by the teacher at the end of school and locked in the cupboards. It is on that score that I think this motion should not have been allowed after the motivation of
TRANSFER OF DIPPING STAFF FROM REGIONAL AUTHORITIES TO DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE MR P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman and hon members , before moving I wish to amend my motion to read as follows:"That in the opinion of this Assembly Dipping Staff and all affairs appertaining thereto should be transferred from the regional authorities to the Department of Agriculture and Forestry." The reason I bring this motion is because of the condition of the dipping staff. They are not well-to-do and they are not entitled to any pension. When attending the dipping tank they go on foot or on horseback and yet there is no allowance for such. Some of these dipping tanks are far away from the residences of these dipping foremen, with the result that dipping foremen 52.
not deem it fit to withdraw this motion. In the light granted by the hon Minister it would appear that there is an Act from this Assembly that this matter should be dealt with by the regional authorities. It would therefore be improper for this House to make an Act and then circumvent that Act somehow. I would like to know from the mover if he is not prepared to withdraw the motion in the circumstances. MR NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman, I have said I have started something which was asked of me. Now an explanation has been made and it devolves upon me to go back to the electorate and ask them what action to take, because I have been told by the Government, and this is the truth, and therefore I have to go back to the region. I would think all the hon members have heard what has been said in this House and so I withdraw the motion for the present. Agreed to.
will take a journey of about one day, which means he must sleep on his way to the dipping tank and on the way home. CHAIRMAN : Excuse me, hon member, The hon member for Mqanduli moved his motion and made an amendment. The amendment was not as clear as it should have been. I would request the hon member to reiterate his amendment specifically. MR NKOSIYANE : (Read motion as amended) MR S. A. XOBOLOLO: I second, Mr Chairman. M/HEALTH: Mr Chairman, we are a bit confused now. We have a motion here and now it seems it is being amended. By whose leave is it being amended? CHAIRMAN : Could the mover respond to this question? MR NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman, I was merely asking this House to allow me to make this amendment to my motion, not that I was forcing this House to accept it. M/HEALTH: In that case, Mr Chairman, the matter has to be referred to the House generally. CHAIRMAN : Would you say what you want to say now, explicitly. MR NKOSIYÁNE : I want to amend this motion. CHAIRMAN: To what effect? MR NKOSIYANE: I was requesting this House to allow me to make this amendment, that in place of the word "foremen" after the word "dipping" the following words should be substituted: "staff and all affairs appertaining thereto". CHAIRMAN: Does the House agree? M/HEALTH : I will request this House to please allow him to carry on. Agreed to.
INCREASE IN SALARIES OF HEADMEN MR P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I am the mover of this motion which reads as follows:"That in the opinion of this Assembly salaries of headmen should be raised to R60 per month." In my travels I have met many headmen and they told me about this matter. I thereupon decided to bring it to this Assembly. All these members are aware of these conditions. When we talk of anyone as a headman, that person is really a chief. You will find it is the practice that a sub-chief is appointed to that position after he has been a headman. Even these chiefs here were headmen first. It is well known that these people know their work. Their work is exactly the same as that of the chief, even if they have been promoted to chief. You will find that the rights enjoyed by the headmen before the introduction of these tribal authorities have been removed and everything was collected into the tribal authorities. Today no headman has a right to hear any cases or fine anyone. Even with the allocation of arable allotments the application has to be considered first by the tribal authority. As far as we are concerned, no-one has got a land without going first to the headman. What is usual as far as custom is concerned is that anyone desirous of getting anything goes to the headman's place and starts negotiations to acquire a land. I know that previously these people were not paid but their subjects used to pay tribute to them by giving them something. Today if an ordinary subject visits the chief with the object of paying tribute the chief is liable to be arrested for accepting bribes. (Interjections) He knows that you do not require any money if you have a pot, because food is not money, so what you have to do if the food has been cooked is to hand over some money. These headmen who receive no pay therefore . . CHIEF S. C. JOJO: On a point of order, Mr Chairman CHAIRMAN : Hon chief from Mount Ayliff, there is nothing out of order. MR NKOSIYANE : Seeing that all his rights have been taken away from him the salary paid to these headmen is too little, especially when one considers the high cost of living. They have to send their children to school but they also partake of drink. (Laughter) They use that money to buy themselves food and they buy also for their children. The reason why I have brought this motion is because I sympathize with these chiefs as far as their present situation is concerned. It should be borne in mind that the chiefs do not ask the people to pay anything for services rendered by the chief, but it is the people who offer payment and so the chiefs do not ask for bribes. When a subject arrives at the Great Place he greets the chief and he knows very well that the chief has lost some of his rights. This man then puts his complaint and the headman takes all the trouble to take the complainant to the chief's place and place his problems or difficulties to the chief. The chief refers the matter to his tribal authority in order to consider whatever difficulty is suffered by the subject. I do not like this term "headman" because the headman is also a chief. Now, the complainant will ask the heaman: What have you been eating along the road to the chief's place? This poor headman replies that he had nothing to eat on his way
MR NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman , it is my wish that this House should favourably consider this motion because I have been sent by the people to come and place their case in this House. These people are meeting certain difficulties. When you begin to consider that before these people can get any increments in their wages, resort is made to the people or the stock-owners that the stock rate should be increased so that the staff should receive this increment. For that reason I was asked by my electorate to bring this motion to the House for consideration. I have been sent by the people and it must be remembered that I go amongst my people and when they bring up any matter I have to bring it to the attention of this House. That is my amended motion , Mr Chairman, that this matter should be considered favourably. I have already given an explanation. I take my seat, Mr Chairman. Chairman hon M/AGRICULTURE: Mr and members, while we do not wish to be hard on the people, particularly the dipping staff the hon member for Mqanduli is talking about, I wish to explain to this House in connection with this motion that in terms of Act No 4 of 1965 (the Transkei Authorities Act) regional authorities were given authority on matters such as dipping, suppression of diseases in cattle, construction and maintenance and operation of dipping tanks . Under the same Act they were given authority to levy stock rate to finance these services. Unless this Act, therefore, has been amended there is absolutely no room for the Government to take over these services from the regional authorities because the regional authorities were granted these powers by the Transkeian Government and therefore cannot encroach on the regional authorities ' precincts. Until such time as the regional authorities have expressed an opinion to the effect that they wish that. these powers be wrested from them we do not wish to encroach. I warned the hon member of the implications of his motion and I left it to him whether he would continue or whether he would refer the matter to his regional authority. I wish the House to take note that we do not wish to say we do not appreciate the services afforded by the dipping foremen, but this service is the concern of the regional authorities at the present moment. We have no option, therefore, but to oppose this motion, otherwise we shall encroach on the responsibilities of the regional authorities. I think that is all I can say. CHAIRMAN : In view of the light that has been shed by the hon the Minister of Agriculture, I would like to ask the mover of the motion whether he does
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Chairman and hon members, I move accordingly. CHIEF H. Z. ZULU: I second the amendment. MR S. A. XOBOLOLO: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to second the motion but I will take only half the amendment because the amendment, strictly speaking, goes along with the proposal. The mover of the amendment has certain points where he is not in agreement with the motion. Mr Chairman, it is true we sympathize with our headmen regarding the amounts they receive as their salaries, which are inadequate. This motion comes from an area where there are few chiefs and the duties of the headmen far exceed the salaries they receive. Before the duties of the headmen were diminished after self-government they were in a position to adjudicate on cases but now they are no longer in a position to do so. M/HEALTH: Mr Chairman , it appears we are going to sit here and listen to repetition after repetition. You are canvassing the same point, hon member, as the hon member for Mqanduli . If you have anything further to say, say it. If not, sit down. MR XÓBOLOLO: I will proceed with my address, Mr Chairman. In former times when a man went to the headman he had to pay fees to open a case. Those fees now all go to the tribal authority. That is the important reason why this motion has been brought to this House. The headman has to see to all the troubles that arise in his location and his work has increased a great deal. Those who look for building sites, lands, the building of schools, clinics - those are all things which did not arise before and that is why we are bringing this motion. M/HEALTH: But who is refusing this? MR XOBOLOLO: You are moving an amendment. CHIEF S. C. JOJO : On a point of order, Mr Chairman ... CHAIRMAN: Hon member, there is nothing out of order. I will request the hon chief from Mount Ayliff to please obey. It would appear it is becoming custormary for him to interfere in this House. It has been intimated to me even from the Secretariat that I should take notice of this particular chief from Mount Ayliff. He must please be careful. Carry on, hon member. MR XOBOLOLO : Mr Chairman, the point I want to make, which was emphasized by the mover of the amendment, is that the raising of the headmen's salary depends upon the way in which his residents pay their taxes, so that it is the duty of the headman to see that the residents of the location pay their taxes. I want to stress the point that the headmen still do the work of collecting taxes even now. When the messenger of the court leaves his office he comes directly to the headman's place and it is the headman who takes the messenger to the various kraals of the taxpayers. If there is an attachment of cattle they are handed over to the headman to look after. What work is there the headman does not do in collecting taxes? Mr Chairman, as this motion has been acceptable to this House with its addendum I feel I have no further points to raise. CHIEF N. M. MATANZIMA : Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support the amendment. It is not the duty of the mover to stipulate how much should be paid. A person who is sincere in his proposal moves and he goes on. It was made clear here that those people who proposed increaments had not taken consideration of the amount available. Let it be clear to the mover that we do not want them to stipulate how much ' the increase should be. It is the Treasury who will determine the amount of the increase. I think the mover of the motion should take into consideration the reasons advanced last year when this motion came before the House. In addition to that, this motion is similar to Motion No 8 which is still to be discussed. He should have taken that into consideration and withdrawn this one. Unfortunately, this House consists of a conglomeration of people who do not understand - like those on the Opposition benches. In addition to that, we as chiefs are the people to see that increments are made to headmen under us. The only thing to do with these people who mumble is when you demand a hamel they should hand it over. They are our family as chiefs and it is we chiefs who should see what to do. As a matter of fact, there is nothing further to say. They have no money but we have the money and we will raise the salaries of these headmen irrespec-
to the chief's place because he is not receiving a good salary. All his rights have been taken away and given to the tribal authority. The applicant then asks : How did you get to your destination at the chief's place? The reply is that the headman goes by bus. The applicant asks whether he cannot pay for the headman's journey to the chief's place. It must be borne in mind that as black people we have a sympathetic attitude towards those who have no money. To give an example, if we are travelling along by bus and someone has no money to pay, we generally give him the money even though he has not made a request. Because of such feelings I decided I should bring this motion to the House for its favourable consideration. Pay no attention because in my motion I have stated how much should be paid as salary to the headman. I firmly hope and belive that the Government can see its way to paying more than the R60 I have asked for, because the Government knows the headman is a servant of the Government. It is the request I make to the Government when submitting this motion. This should not cause any annoyance among the members of the House, especially on the Government side. I would that the Government should increase these salaries. I am jutting this motion as a request and I take my seat. I ask this House to unanimously agree to this request and not introduce any amendment because this motion deals with your own people. As you are chiefs you were formerly headmen. You must therefore have sympathy. MR S. A. XOBOLOLO: I second, Mr Chairman. MR K. G. NOTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I am moving an omendment to this Motion No 5. The amendment is to delete all the words after the word "headmen" and substitute the following words :"and chiefs who are not members of this House should be raised." The motion would then read as follows:- "That in the opinion of this Assembly salaries of headmen and chiefs who are not members of this House should be raised." CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA: And the amount? MR NOTA: I just want to canvass that point now, Mr Chairman. The hon members of the House are mistaken to stipulate the amount. Even the mover has already said he was making a mistake. He was just throwing in the figure for the sake of writing. The correct thing is to increase the salaries - that is all. Supposing the Government is able to increase the salaries to more than R60 and then it is tied down by the motion if it is accepted. I submit, Mr Chairman, that this Government does not want to starve anybody. It is its intention to pay people more and more, but we will not be wise to state the amount because we are not the controllers of the Treasury: We have to be practical, gentlemen. You will remember last year, Mr Chairman and hon members, that the salaries of chiefs who are not members of this House were raised, and as a result the motion by the hon member for Mqanduli, Mr Nkosiyane, was withdrawn. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: What page of Hansard? MR NOTA: If you refer to the Estimates of Expenditure for last year you will see that in item H, page 2. The Estimates for 1974/75 were R323 500 and for 1975/76 they are R563 500 an increase of R240 000. However, the chiefs and headmen were told to be productive and help in the collection of taxes. There are arrear taxes, you know, and if they could help in this business of collecting taxes the salaries will be increased accordingly. MR M. J. DUMALISILE : What about the messengers of the court? MR NOTA: Yes, there are messengers of the court but it is the duty of the headmen to help in the collecting of taxes. (Interjections) Are you against the collection of taxes, hon member? MR DUMALISILE: I want to collect hundreds of rand from you in taxes. MR NOTA: I do pay taxes. I am not in arrears. Mr Chairman, there is not much to say on this subject. This side of the House wants the Government to pay its employees adequate salaries but the Government can never be required to pay more than it receives. We have to be realistic. The Treasury is the controlling body. In principle we agree that these salaries should be increased, then the Treasury will have to look into the moneys and see whether this can be realised. Mr 54.
tive of the amount. M/HEALTH : Mr Chairman, I move that in view of the fact that the time is running short no more speakers should be allowed on this motion and that time be given to the mover of the original motion to withdraw it in preference to the amendment. I will give him three minutes to make up his mind. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN: What is the reaction of the mover? MR P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman, I still insist on what I am saying, because if the people have asked me to come with that motion I am not concerned with people who have not been elected by the people. M/HEALTH: I thought I was making it easy for the hon member because I am aware he will not be in tomorrow, but if he wants to be difficult I will also be difficult. I am again giving him a minute. MR NKOSIYANE: I will ask that someone takes over from me in my absence. The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 31 March 1976.
1974/75 is unauthorized and requires to be voted. Your committee having made inquiry into the circumstances recommends the above sum for specific appropriation by the Legislative Assembly. NOTICES OF MOTION 20. Mr. M. P. Ludidi gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Department of Roads and Works to standardize: (a) the road between Matatiele and Mt. Frere via Rock Ford ; (b) the road between Matatiele and Qacha's Nek in Lesotho; and (c) the road between Matatiele and Ramatsiliso also in Lesotho." 21. Mr. M. P. Ludidi gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of settling the Trust Farms to be transferred to the Transkei Government in terms of the 1936 Land and Trust Act in such a way that the economic value thereof will not deteriorate and with that aim view consider:- making grants of personal farms to the Paramount Chiefs in land adjoining their areas of jurisdiction; and granting farms and or small farms to prospective farmers who have rendered faithful service in the development of their country the Transkei." 22. Mr. L. S. Baleni gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of negotiating with the Republican Government prior to independence with a view to declaring the Umzimkulu river as a boundary in the northern section of the district instead of Ingwangwane river." 23. Mr. J. M. Sigwela gave notice to move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should consider the advisability of constructing a bridge on Indwe river on the road from Cala to Lady Frere, Indwe and Queenstown through Mceula and Lupapasi." 24. Mr. J. M. Sigwela gave notice to move"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should consider the advisability of building a Training School for boys and girls in administrative area No. 39 in the district of St. Marks." 25. Mr. L. L. Mgudlwa gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should consider the advisability of introducing at its earliest convience, its Government's Pension Scheme for all married women employees who are employed permanently in all its establishments."
WEDNESDAY, 31 MARCH 1976 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ADMINISTRATION OF OATH CHAIRMAN: Hon members of the House, I wish to advise the House that the following chief from Glen Grey district has arrived to take his seat in the Assembly - namely, Chief Zwelixolile Mpangele. Will the said chief now come forward escorted by two members of the House to take the oath to uphold the Constitution of the Transkei. Chief Zwelixolile Mpangele took the oath before the Chairman of the Asembly. ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon members, two Ministers are unable to attend the session today - the Minister of Justice and also the Minister of the Interior and because of the absence of the hon the Minister of Justice I move that Item No 9 should stand over because he is he only person who can explain it in the legal terminology which is required. M/HEALTH: I second. Agreed to. CHAIRMAN: Hon members of the House, this House is being informed that its allowances will be payable at 12 o'clock today: It being Wedenesday the banks close at 1 o'clock so in order to effect the payments speedily all members, after the adjournment, should be seated in order to get their allowances. I will repeat and give this warning to the members of the Assembly. As I say, discipline of parliament is more important than parliament itself because discipline upholds parliament. All the regulations controlling this House are written in black and white. I request the Whips and the respective caucuses of the parties to give an explanation as to what behaviour an hon member should assume in this House. This is the third warning I have given in this House and I will not do it again. Only action will take place. Thank you.
INCREASE IN SALARIES OF HEADMEN The debate was resumed. CHAIRMAN : Hon members, it is my opinion that this motion was thoroughly canvassed yesterday so I shall call upon the mover of its motion to reply. MR S. A. XOBOLOLO : Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to reply on behalf of the mover of the motion, as he has requested me to do. Firstly I must express thanks for the way in which this motion was supported by this House. The mover gave a satisfactory explanation as to why he has asked for an increase in salaries. It will be noted that the headmen now have many more duties to perform than they had previously. The headmen have to see to everything that is going on in their admanistrative areas and because of the progress made in this territory the headmen have additional duties to perform. There is the construction of schools and clinics; they have to deal with applicants for the old-age pension because this matter has been entirely placed in the hands of the headmen. As there was an amendment to this motion I am going to address the mover of the amendment. The mover of the amendment said the mover of the motion should not have stated the amount of the increase and he did not object to this, but only stated he was giving a figure so that the Government should be aware that he was asking for an increase. The mover of the amendment stated clearly that it is quite possible that the man responsible for finance could even pay more to the hadmen than was indicated in the motion. I therefore
TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS MR S. W. MBANGA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I lay upon the table the first report of the Sessional Committee on Public Accounts, 1976. Your committee, having considered and examined the following matter mentioned in the Report of the Controller and Auditor-General on the Appropriation Accounts and the Miscellaneous Accounts of the Transkeian Government and on the Accounts of the Lower Authorities in the Transkei for the financial year 1974/75 referred to it, and having taken evidence which it submits herewith, begs to report as follow:- Unauthorized Expenditure, 1974/75. Your committee begs to report that an amount of R246 342,39 expended on Vote 5, Agriculture and Forestry, specified in paragraph 3, page 1 of the Report of the Controller and Auditor-General on the Appropriation Accounts for the financial year 55.
for the Transkei to fight the Republican Government. That was very silly, Mr Chairman. We have created the Transkeian army to defend our State and we are further intending that the Republican army and the Transkeian army shall fight side by side when an enemy comes to this Transkei of ours. We are likely to have enemies. You see, you people, I don't know how you will defend yourselves against what is happening in Mozambique and Angola if you don't wake up, because what is happening there may happen in the Transkei. MR K. M. GUZANA: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, what Angola has to do with the motion standing to the name of the hon member I don't know. MR DIKO: You must wait. MR GUZANA: The motion ' relates to Transkeian servants, chiefs and headmen and labourers. MR DIKO: Mr Chairman, let him sit down. He is waisting my time. (Laughter) MR GUZANA: I seek that the hon member be brought to within the ambit of his motion. CHAIRMAN : Continue, please. MR DIKO : Thank you. Now I will educate you further. Now, you know there was trouble in Angola because people were not paid sufficiently and I want the Transkei to realise if they are not going to pay decent salaries now before independence then we shall be in trouble. They make long queues in Mozambique because they want food, because they want money. So I say the Transkeian Government must see to this. I have met the civil servants at my meetings and they tell me they are underpaid. That is why there is a big exodus, because they are leaving the civil service and joining the factories. We lose even in the Education Department. That is why we lost Mr Guzana, because he went as an attorney because he was not paid. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR DIKO: So the backbone of a State is a strong and well-paid civil service and I am not just joking. I want the Transkeian Government and the hon the Minister of Finance - I am sorry he is not here . . . . OPPOSITION MEMBER : Why? MR DIKO: Because he is the chief spokesman for us to Mr Vorster. You see, what I cannot understand is that the gentleman who is getting R14 000 is more educated, more qualified than the counterpart in the Republic who is getting R35 000. Now, how does that happen? So people must be paid according to their educational qualifications. If I am a doctor I must be paid a salary that is being paid to a doctor no matter where he is — in Australia, in America . . . . OPPOSITION MEMBER : In Russia? or in Russia for that matter. MR DIKO: People must be paid for their education, for their services they are rendering to the community. I want to go further. In this House ever since its establishment in 1963 we have pleaded for the headmen. Don't say "sibonda" now. (Laughter) We will quarrel with you if you say that. We have been pleading for the headmen to be paid a good salary. This House and the Republican Government have been deaf to that plea. You should realise that the headman is actually in touch with those Mbombelas and Dhlaminis in the location and can cause a lot of harm when these people are taking it upon themselves to assist the under- privileged and underpaid. Yes, the headman has been crying and groaning that his lot must be better, but nothing has been done. CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, at this stage I crave your indulgence that the debate on this motion should be suspended to allow me to make a very important announcement. MR K. M. GUZANA: I second. Agreed to. The debate was adjourned.
have to commend this House for the way it treated this motion. Hon members, I shall put the CHAIRMAN: amendment to this motion. Amendment put and accepted. Motion as amended put and carried unanimously. MR S. A. XOBOLOLO : Mr Chairman, as the mover of Motion No 6 is absent he asked me to request the House to postpone this motion until he can be present in the House. Agreed to.
INCREASE IN SALARIES OF TRANSKEIAN CIVIL SERVANTS ETC MR C. DIKO : Mr Chairman and hon members, I move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of raising the salaries of all Transkeian servants, chiefs and headmen and labourers to those of their counterparts in the Republic of South Africa." Mr Chairman, the purpose of this motion is to make the Republican Government aware that when we get independence and when we accepted the idea of independence, we were not at all accpeting slavery. (Laughter) Now, this is a sound warning to the Republican Government. The creation of this Transkeian independence is that creation of the Republican Government. It is not ours. We accepted the idea because when we wanted to go to Cape Town to a parliament of all human beings in the Republic they said No. They went further, and I always want the hon member for Mqanduli to realise the importance of that — that you can get to Cape Town only over their dead bodies. Having no arms, we decided to give them a chance and let us see whether they are honest about this territorial separation and underline "territorial". It is not human beings' separation, but they meant to slice off a portion of the Republic so that, according to Dr Verwoerd's words, the sky is the only limit to our development. So in the Transkei I want it very clear that these Jews and these Greeks who are employing a lot of African women in the Transkei, and paying them nothing, must stop that nonsense. There are a lot of Jews and Greeks here exploiting the black man and this exploitation in our country, in our time, must definitely cease. So when I say the Transkeian servants I am including eve nthe State President that is going to be. I am including the Prime Minister that is going to be. I am including all the Ministers of State. What right is there that a man holding the position of Prime Minister must get R14 000 and the other man, his counterpart, is getting R35 000? GOVT MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR DIKO: So the thing is inhuman. We buy these cars and we pay 'exactly what white man is paying. You go and get petrol and you pay exactly what the white man is paying. So what is the difference? Even the polish for my shoes is the same price as the white man pays. (Laughter) So what is the justification for this difference in salaries? I want it to be clear that the man who will be Prime Minister (and we must start now on 1 April) must get the same salary. (Laughter) Let us be very clear about this. And the State President that will be in October must get R40 000 like his counterpart in the Republic. MR M. J. DUMALISILE : And members of parliament? MR DIKO: Members must get exactly what those Dutchmen are getting. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR DIKO: You see, those men are getting not only sessional allowance but there is a recess allowance for them as well. MR DUMALISILE : I know the figures. MR DIKO: If you know the figures, Mr Moses, this is not a pondokkie - this is an Assembly and people in this Assembly must be paid a living wage. I don't want the hon member for Mqanduli to run away. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN: Order, hon member. Don't address another person, please. Address the Chair. MR DIKO: Right, Mr Chairman. This hon member for Mqanduli has accused the hon the Minister of Justice and the Government side of preparing an army
ANNOUNCEMENT CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon members, this House is greatly honoured this morning that it has been visited by one of the most illustrious sons of Great Britain, the grandson of Sir Winston Churchill, who is known to everybody above the age of puberty. Mr Chairman , Mr Churchill is himself a member of the British House of Commons and he is himself a wellknown figure in the British Parliament. He
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is visiting South Africa with his family and has also visited our small domain, the Transkei. As you know, the Transkeian Territories have an affinity for Great Britain because of the historical ties which have existed between the two countries. The Transkeian Territories were annexed by the British Government to the Cape Colony from 18772 to 1894, and the Transkei people paid allegiance to the great Queen Victoria. During this period of British control up to 1910 we paid allegiance to the British Government and they having been consulted, we were handed over to the Union Government. We maintained our integrity and we hoped that one day we would attain independence. Mr Winston Churchill comes to the Transkei at a time when all our spirits are high because of the fulfilment of our aspirations. He has personally had observation of the territory and its development and will be able to convince anybody who talks about the Transkei from hearsay about the stage which we have reached. We hope that Great Britain will take the responsibility to show the country that they welcome and recognize an independent Transkei, because it was of their own making. Sir Winston Churchill was a significant figure in the history of the British Commonwealth of Nations. We are cognizant of the rôle he played during the Second World War when Great Britain was in danger. We wonder what would have happened to us and the Western world if Sir Winston Churchill had not been available to take over the reins at such a critical time. Sir, I am sure I am expressing the wishes of this House when I say that we welcome this important figure in the history of Great Britain to South Africa, and to the Transkei in particular. I will have an audience with him in my office at 2.15 this afternoon. Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I wish to add my word of welcome to the very warm welcome which has been extended to Mr Churchill by the hon the Chief Minister of the Transkei. I assume that he is somewhere in the gallery, and if indeed he has walked into his rightful inheritance we would like him to show us his presence by dropping the ash from his cigar. (Laughter) Sir, indeed we are overjoyed to view you here amongst us today and are happy to know that you are a member of that great institution of democracy, the British House of Commons. Don't be surprised, however, that when we welcome you we have almost the overwhelming shadow of your grandfather over us, for his brilliance in debate and his craftsmanship in politics is something which is there for all generations to look upon with admiration. I am sure, Sir, that you are a chip of the old block and I think you must have made your mark in that great House when scintillating adjectives and resounding phrases have befuddled your opposition. If you were to go round many of the homes of Africans in the Transkei you would find the picture of your grandfather occupying a prominent place along the walls, and it is my hope that in later years your photograph will be hung next to him because you are a chip of the old block. You have come, Sir, at a time of constitutional developments in South Africa. We have sufficient faith in your wise judgment that you will know what to say when you get back to Great Britain. We have been told that Great Britain is a very cold place, not only because of the climate but because there is a shortage of fuel. Here, Sir, we have some fuel and hope that the South African fires will warm you and your family. Going with that is the warm hospitality which we hope you will enjoy, together with your family, during your stay in South Africa. Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. The Assembly adjourned.
calling upon the Government to pay the people of the Transkei the white man's salary, so the counterpart of the headman in the Republic is the superintendent of the location, be it Duncan Village or New Brighton. (Laughter) That is the money I want for the headman. So in the Transkei any headman must be paid the money that is paid to the superintendent of a location in the Republic - and this nonsense of calling him "sibonda" must stop immediately. A headman is an important connecting link in so far as the administration of a location is concerned. MR K. M. GUZANA: Even a "sibonda" is important in a fence. MR DIKO: A fence cannot think; it cannot act. A headman has to do a lot of thinking and has to entertain all the people who come to his place, and all the officials who come to his place. He gets R18 a month, and even the girls who work here the Jews don't give them that small amount. I mean kitchen girls. MR GUZANA: What is a kitchen girl? MR DIKO: It is like all of you - hewers of wood and drawers of water. MR GUZANA: What do you pay your kitchen girl? MR DIKO: So I want a headman to be elevated to such position that he will not only be able to educate his children, he will also be able to cater for the important visitors who come to his administrative area. There are a lot of them going to the headman. A headman receives many visitors. Every day government officials, inspectors, members of parliament go there even the hon members of the Opposition go there and many a time I have seen them at my place. It is our custom to slaughter a sheep for these people, so I say to this House that a headman must be elevated and I will not tolerate the term "sibonda" for a headman. (Laughter) He is a brother to a chief. You don't just take anybody, you take a man because he is born in that line. He is great in so far as his family is concerned and he is the brother of the chief, so there is no need to call these people "sibonda". The important thing from today is that the Government must revise salaries of headmen to those of their counterparts in the Republic - that is, the superintendent of the location. Now, a chief in so far as I am concerned is also very important and his counterpart is the Provincial Administrator. Do you understand? (Laughter) Now, there is a funny thing, and it was a trick and it was done by the Dutch people and you must not carry it over to independence - that you pay a chief according to the number of taxpayers in his region. What nonsense is that? Are you going to pay teachers according to the number of children in the school? Why do you always think in terms of the way to do down the other man? So a chief, even if he only has a hundred taxpayers, must be paid what the Provincial Administrator is paid. I want you to understand that. Now I must come to an important promise. An important man, the Prime Minister of the Republic, has appealed to the whole world that he must be given six months within which to close the wage gap. Now, that is what we want to know, if that was a bluff. If he was honest he must not make the people of the Transkei inherit wages that are intended for slaves. We don't want to carry over slavery from the Republic, so according to this promise it is now ten months since he said so, and he said in six months. I am wondering now why we are still getting these slave wages. His promise was that people would be levelled after six months, so the demand I am making is in accordance with his promise. They have started pulling down all these demarcating planks in all the post offices and the stations. I am not interested in that. The argument is not on planks, but argument is on human rights and the hon the Leader of the Opposition was arguing that a man, be he black, yellow or white, is a man and for the services he is rendering to a State he must be paid the salary of a human being. For 350 years you and I have been the underdog of this country and ever since have been paid the wages of an underdog. They have said now they are giving the Transkei to us. We are given - I want the hon the Leader of the Opposition to understand that. We wanted to go to Cape Town you must understand that that these gentlemen who have all the firearms on their side said we won't go to Cape Town, but they will give us money to develop our own areas, so he must fulfil that promise. Now
AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the Increase in Salaries of Transkeian Civil Servants, etc, was resumed. MR C. DIKO: Mr Chairman and hon members, I was still on the question of headmen and I will be coming to the chiefs, but I must start with these men who have been least paid all these years. Now, when I speak of the counterpart of the headman in the Republic, don't think in the old way when you were called Kaffirs or Natives, and think about your brothers in the Republic. I am only making a comparison and
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some idiotic people are asking where we are going to get the money. I am not so senseless as to demand what I don't know. Let me tell you, for the last 350 years even the worst man in the Mbombela everyone group has been paying indirect taxation. Now, I have got rid of that money - do you understand? The Republican Government now is owing the people of the Transkei R500 000 million. (Laughter) You can make your own estimation. Ever since millions and millions of Africans have been paying indirect taxation, and who has been enjoying the fruits of that money? The interest on that money -- who has been enjoying it? MEMBER: Pretoria. MR DIKO: Now, Pretoria all these years has been surviving on the sweat of our labours. We don't want a pseudo liberation now, hon Opposition members, please note. As you said it was a pseudo parliament, we don't want pseudo liberation from those who shun to sit with us in Cape Town. We would not mind sitting with them, but now we want to create a Transkei out of this because they made us what we are. The authors of slavery men like Dr Eiselen - even tried to make the Africans intellectual slaves. That is why we complain in the post office, in the civil service, everywhere, because our children have been denied intellectually. They can't think, they can't know what is right or wrong. That is the fault of Dr Eiselen. I want to warn you very seriously that the members of the Legislative Assembly, particularly the hon Ministers, must take note of this. (Laughter) Here is the point at issue and I want to sit down after this point. You see, these white people are very strict and while you don't like me to talk about Angola I will tell you something. Today the refugees of Angola are a nuisance to South Africa and South West Africa. The Portuguese who have put those people in that plight did not care anything for them. They promised to send a ship which was a hospital for those people and they have done nothing. As the man who opened the Assembly said, this is the last time it is a white man sitting here. They must not turn their backs against us - they must not turn their backs against us before they have given us money. (Laughter) We cannot maintain this Transkei without money, so these people in Pretoria have got our money and when he says he will not open the Assembly again we want our money first. I am trying to bring this to the attention of the House, particularly the Government and the hon the Chief Minister, that if they go to independence without this money there is going to be a revolt. (Laughter) The private secretaries are going to turn against you because you are not paying them sufficient. The hon the Leader of the Opposition in his address spoke about the Transkei army but he has put things wrongly. We. must have an army but they have learned about coups which take place and should you dare not to pay the army, police, civil servants and all these people proper money, within a year_or_two you are going to see a coup here. (Laughter) So I am honestly and sincerely warning you. You see, I am supporting independence money and I am supporting independence whole-heartedly, but we must see that we get our money. We don't want everybody to complain about Matanzima. (Laughter) You know, men are being driven from the Republic and told to go to Matanzima, and the civil servants, hon member for Ngqeleni, are leaving the service today. There is a big exodus, be it from the Department of Agriculture or the Department of Roads and Works. They are getting out. Why? Because there is no money, and so when you say you are giving them independence they are not interested in these celebrations you are going to give them. After enjoying themselves and after eating meat and drinking they want good salaries and wages. Now, the last point is on these labourers these labourers around you. It is surprising that a minister must be very happy when paying his kitchen girl R5 a month. (Laughter) This person has got children to send to school. This person has to buy school-books, as you heard yesterday. I was supporting this motion that the headmen must be paid R60. You know why I am waiting for the money to be sent to us. You know what the merit is of R500 000 million. I am only giving them a figure which is reasonable, but I think it is more than that. (Laughter) So if we are given those millions in a lump sum we can develop our
mines. We have gold in the Transkei but it was never developed. MR K. M. GUZANA: Give them six months to pay over this money. MR DIKO: No, that is too long. They said they wanted six months but now we say this money must be paid by 1 April. (Laughter) Where are the hon Ministers? Make sure, if you don't have that money tomorrow then have another parliament in June. You must note that, because this is a very sound and healthy warning. MR E. M. DEKEDA: I second, Mr Chairman. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, never at any time has so much sense been spoken by a Government member directed at the Government, and this is as it should be, for this side of the House did groom this man and put him through his political pupillage. (Laughter) We taught him to be honest in spite of himself. (Laughter) For instance, he has told us quite clearly that indepedence is not something that the Transkeians want — it is what the Republican Government is giving the Transkei and making the Transkei take: We have tried to tell the Government this, but they have pretended that they have asked for independence and that that independence has been accepted by the people of the Transkei. Now, I am in sympathy and in agreement with the mover of the motion when he says this is an affair of the Republican Government and not an affair of this Government or of the people of the Transkei, and I want to refer to some figures to give point to my submission. Yesterday we were given figures relating to the number of voters in the Transkei and the population of the various districts in the Transkei. The population of the Transkei was given as 1905 841 and the voters who are registered number 1 059 298. I would advise you to take down these numbers because we are going to do a bit of arithmetic. The number of unregistered voters, therefore, including minors in the Transkei is 846 543. Those who are alleged to have cast their votes in favour of and against independence put together give us a total of 152 028. This is a number which is just about between one-fifth and one-sixth of the number of people who are not registered as voters. MR C. DIKO: What has that to do with the money we are asking for? MR GUZANA: I am supporting your contention that this independence is a Republican affair. Of the registered voters in the Transkei, out of a total of 1 059 298, 907 270 did not vote. Look at it! - 152 028 participating in the vote for independence and 907 270 not participating. MR DIKO: Mr Chairman, on a point of order .... MR GUZANA: This shows that the Transkei never wanted independence. MR DIKO: Mr Chairman, may the Chairman not allow the Leader of the Opposition to take an unfair advantage of the argument here. What we are asking for is the moncy from the Republican Government, so we are not interested in the voting figures. MR GUZANA: I have taken my cue from the mover of the motion, who took the opportunity to tell this House that they never asked for independence. It was an affair of the Republican Government. Therefore only 13% of the voters of the Transkei cast their votes either for or against independence, and the percentage of people who did vote in favour of independence is 11,8 % of the total voters. Where is your mandate? No wonder the hon member has come out with the truth and says this independence is being forced down your throats .. MR K. G. NOTA: Come to the question of money. MR GUZANA: .... and your throats are big enough to swallow anything that is forced down. In that context the hon member seeks to have salaries of Transkeian civil servants raised, the salaries of chiefs and headmen is a matter which was absorbed in the amendment by the hon member from Mount Ayliff when he moved his amendment to the motion of the hon member for Mqanduli, but what is preposterous is the fact that the mover seeks to equate the position of a headman with that of a superintedent, the position of the chief with that of a Provincial Administrator. Now, he seems to ignore or to take little cognizance of the fact that whilst the purported counterparts may well be equated with the chiefs and headmen, those counter-
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parts have had experience and training and education into the functions they are now performing. (Interjecns) DIKO : The chiefs are born to that position. tioMR MR GUZANA: Stripped of all his privileges as a member of parliament the hon member is no more than a headman. As far as his post as minister is concerned , I think we had better ignore that. Now, one would like to know how many headmen have had the same doubtful education as the hon member. (Laughter)MR DIKO :
I taught you at Lovedale. You cannot
that without a tie, without a shirt , without underwear , without everything else . What is the plight of the man earning R9 a month in such circumstances ! I sometimes think that the late Professor D. D. T. Jabavu correctly describes the attitude of a black man in this highly expensive world and I am surprised sometimes at the benevolent smiles that Africans can still show in the light of the economic oppression under which they have miraculously survived for so many years. He said that the black man has asinine patience . You may flog it until your arm is sore but it never brays until you let it loose on to the veld . Probably the hon member for Tabankulu is behaving in like fashion . He is seeing green pastures and probably the saddle is just being loosened , and that is why he is braying so loudly in this House. (Laughter) But the fact of the matter , hon members , is that we should think in terms of the job that has to be done and the wage that should attach to that job. Let us not taint a valid argument by bringing into it overtones of racial comparison. Now, I am surprised that the hon member should say that the Republican Government owes the Black man R500 000 million or more . Is human life, is human dignity , is an individaul humand liberty, is full realization as equate with rands ? Can you say that I shall pay you so much money to compensate you for the flogging I
ion bt my NA douMR ZAcat GUedu : . Well, if you put it in the reverse context then you will be telling the truth . You were about the most troublesome pupil in my class. I suppose you still bear the marks of corporal punishment I gave you. (Laughter) But the fact of the matter is that there need be no howl about paying a black man a white man's salary; that a black man should be paid a white man's wage because anybody who thinks in that context is colour-conscious and race-concious. What we need is an elevation of the wages and salaries of people so that they may lead a decent life. If you constantly say that the wages must be the same as that of Whites you will find that some Whites are receiving a wage MR C.enDI u ? : I am talking about indirect taxation. have giv yoKO which would not give even you a decent living. Let MR GUZANA: That is what I am saying . Whether x on us get away from this comple of race equati that it be direct or indirect , white South Africa can never we will be getting something good if only we are paid fully pay its debt to the black man of South Africa . as Whites are paid. Let us attach the wage to the job, (Interjections) The only way it can make amends is to rather than the scale to the white man's scale. I am in give the black man full realization in South Africa , not sympathy with the hon member when he condemns low in a pondokkie like the Transkei . (Interjections) wages, and let us not merely direct that criticism against MR DIKO: You have said it is your idea to get to the Whites because there are many Blacks now paying MR e ToGU wn.ZANA : I have no alternative because I them miserable and scandalous wages . Cap not gain with a man's dignity, with a man's can bar e mpl e KO: Giv an exatance . MR MR DI GUZANA : For ins , the woman who cooks liberty, with a man's realization as a human being . ulu er for the hon memb for Tabank merely gets a MR DIKO : Why don't you go to Cape Town ? If plate of porridge and a sleeping place as compensation . they say it must be over their dead bodies , why don't We must move away from this type of thinking where, when we go to a butcher's shop we ask for servants' d? NA : 1 don't want their dead bodies, I GU MR eaZA go ah you meat. If we are in business let us move away from re want to sha with them in legislation . what is sometimes described as a "Kaffir" shop. Let : They have refused . MR DIKO us approach the subject on the basis of the wage for MR GUZANA : I don't want to substitute myself the job. I usually get depressed when I meet people as the ruler , but I want to share with them as a ruler . in the street, people in positions of responsibility, lookMR DIKO : And if they refused , what do you do? s row e g n ter ing no bet tha scarec becaus they are holdin MR GUZANA : You think very much like the a job and being paid a black man's wage. It appears person who suspects his neighbour of practising witchity even those in author , even this t cks are still thinking in terms of a black t Bla tha mosmen Govtern ft . DIKO : If he refuses, what do you do? Tell craMR man's wage , a white man's wage ; black man's salary, white man's salary. I would resent it very much if the e .ZANA : You think perhaps he is practising s Hous GU thiMR parliamentary allowance of members here were to be chcraft on you and so you want to eliminate him. wit said to be equal to that of parliamentary members in And so I still hold out to you that the possibility of Cape Town because you would be thinking in terms of sharing power with the man in South Africa is still race. Any argument which seeks to raise those salaries and is based on this racial comparison is, to me, obnothere . KO xious. I would urge that we begin to reorientate ourMR Ho: w?I am not surprised that you ask : NA ZA GU MR DI lly ica n log in selves psycho . Is a headma able to mainta how, because by hiving off with independence you are a wife and children at the rate of R18 a month ? Is making it more and more difficult to get to Cape Town. the chief able to maintain his family at a salary of (Interjections) If there is an obstructionist who is in R60 or R80 a month? If indeed we come to the conthe way of the realization of the non-white man's rights clusion that this is not possible , then we have a responin South Africa , it is the fellow who supports separate sibility to attach to these positions a salary or a wage t. : And what happened to Sonny Leon? ' which will make it possible for these men who hold pmen KO veloDI deMR these positions to live decently. Let us move away ZANA: I am not talking about him. GU MR from this concept that a human being can live on MR DIKO: You don't know these things. What mealie-pap and samp and pumpkin , for the black man's happened to the Coloured leader who refused separate family life has gone through a metamorphosis . All persons seek to have a meal that is decent , that is pment?AN develoAI RM er , please . king CH : : Ord diversified. They wear shirts , suits, underpants , socks , MR GUZANA I am not tal about him, I am shoes and they have to buy all these articles of clothing. talking about you. It is my submission that if anything is to be done under this head we must look at the They have got to pay for books , pay for uniforms , pay for the education of their children . They must westerprinciple of serving the people and paying them for the nize the home to such a degree that it is of interest to job they are doing. And if you think that independence their children so that your child can play the piano , is going to mean you are going to get a higher wage play the radio in your house , rather than have to move or salary, let me disabuse you now, hon member. You away to listen to a radio programme. In other words , may have a reduction in your parliamentary allowance your home must be a microcosm of the attractions next year because there is not sufficient money. You which the world is providing so that you can keep will have to sweat and labour and take your jacket off hold of your children in your own home . And is this to make your independence anything like a success. If you think you have been crawling on your knees to possible when the head of the family earns R9, R18, R60 or R150 a month? Is this possible? I assume that get where you are, you will have to crawl on your the suits worn by hon members here were bought new belly now to make independence work. You seem to and not handed over to them by somebody else; andd an that two-piece suit costs you R70 , R80 or R90 59.
For too long we have been oppressed. For many years we have been despised. We have been reduced to the position of nothingness inasmuch that our reasoning is impaired. At least, that is what the oppressor thinks. When the white man decided to underpay the black man he was aware of what he was doing. The motive behind the whole thing was to get the black man to be despised. He did not want the world to realise that the black man can think as well as any other person. But things are changing, and changing very fast. It is because of that that we now speak so strongly against the policy of the white man. It is because of the change that we are able to face up to the realities of the situation. It is because of the changes that we want to improve things for our people. It would surely be foolish of us to march to our freedom without seeing that things have been put right. We, the people who are elected to this House by the people, are only here to speak the truth, to try and uplift the underpaid, oppressed worker, otherwise if the position of our people cannot be improved, our forthcoming independence which is sure to come will be meaningless. It is clear beyond any reasonable doubt that the hon the Leader of the Opposition is a hireling of the white man (Laughter), hence his decision to confuse the whole House on this motion. I am aware that I have spoken after a big political giant an authority on the Queen's language, a man who can twist things to suit his own ends, a man who can make the truth to become lies. This is not surprising, because he is used to this type of practice . (Laughter) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR NDAMASE: I have got to look out when a man is approaching, wielding a stick. What has motivated him to carry that stick I do not know, so I must make sure I will not be knocked out. (Laughter) The truth is we want better pay for our underpaid headmen. We want all government servants to be paid good salaries, salaries that will restore their lost human dignity. A lot has been said, Mr Chairman, on this motion. Even the so-called leader of the so-called New Democratic Party is aware of that. He cannot refute the truth that our people are underpaid. He agrees with the mover that our people are underpaid but, typical of a man of his type , he decides to abuse the minds of these people. He is not aware that very electorate is in this House this very minute and all the filth, all the dirt he has uttered this afternoon will be conveyed back to the electorate. What chance has he really of coming back to this House ? His utterances have been grossly misleading and I therefore suggest they should be kicked out with all the contempt they deserve. We want better pay and in saying so I support the motion as it stands. Thank you, Sir. MR N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I rise to say a few words on this motion. This motion is acceptable to everybody. The speech made by the hon the Leader of the Opposition did not have the effect of opposing the motion. He was merely making reference to a motion that is acceptable to this House. The mover said that the headman is on an equal footing with a superintendent. MR C. DIKO : I still say so. MR JAFTA: He was merely making out that the education of the headman is not the same as a location superintendent. The gist of the motion is the raising of salaries, which we all support and we support it with the same spirit. Who can oppose the raising of a salary of R18 paid to an adult man? All the matters I have referred to show that we are in accord with the proposal. Another matter he referred to was that we were debarred from going to parliament in Cape Town. I make bold to say we have not given that up. We shall continue saying that, because we do want to go to Cape Town. As far as the motion is concerned , we all accept it. MR DIKO: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, will the speaker answer this question specifically. If you don't accept the Transkei as being split up, are you prepared for a military confrontation to get to Cape Town? Please answer that. MR JAFTA: As far as I am concerned, I have got nothing to do with military confrontations. I did not even mention it. All I said was that we shall meet and discuss the matter. (Interjections) I cannot say we have left off speaking because the position demands that there should be consultations. That consultation will
think independence is a magic wand that is going to bring milk and honey down from heaven. MR DIKO: Are you against the motion? MR GUZANA: I am bringing sense into your thick head. CHIEF MINISTER : Face the Chairman, please. MR GUZANA: And because you think the Republican Government owes you millions of rand this is going to be all cake and pudding after 26 October. The first priority is hard work. MR DIKO: How do you know? MR GUZANA: The second priority is sacrifice. Another priority is diligence and honesty; another priority is dedication to duty. CHIEF MINISTER: Whom are you addressing? MR GUZANA: Another requirement is honesty; and all these seem to be patently lacking in these people who are shouting for independence. CHIEF MINISTER: That is an insult, hon member. Withdraw that. MR GUZANA: I cannot withdraw it because the Public Service Commission Report is going to give us figures of civil servants who have been charged with drunkenness, dishonesty .... CHIEF MINISTER: It happens in any country. MR GUZANA: It is happening here. CHIEF MINISTER: It is nothing new. It happens all over the world. MR GUZANA: If everybody in the whole world sins we are not going to condone it just because everybody is engaged in sinning. With these words, and the corrections which I have given to the thinking of the mover, I support the spirit of the motion. MR DIKO: But not the motion? You are not supporting the motion. MR GUZANA: What I object to is that idea of paying people salaries and wages on the level of his counterpart in the Republic. MR DIKO: Are you going to amend the motion? MR GUZANA: I shall give the hon member the amendment to incorporate in his motion so that it is reasonable. CHIEF MINISTER: Who will support it? MR GUZANA: His seconder will support it because he is sitting next to him and will use his influence over him. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR DIKO : Mr Chairman, don't allow this. There is no amendment. There is nothing before the House. (Laughter) MR E. V. NDAMASE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support the motion by the hon member for Tabankulu. What this motion seeks is very clear even to a fool. It seeks to improve the position of the oppressed man. It secks to restore human dignity, which cannot be achieved if people are underpaid. We are not interested in party differences. What we are here for as elected members is to see that the position of the average underpaid African is bettered. No-one could be misled to believe that the white man did the right thing when he decided to underpay the black man. The white man knew exactly what they were after and that was the lowering of human dignity of the black people. We are now facing our independence, which independence will come at all costs. No matter what a clever lawyer says, our independence is coming. He can use all the tricks he can when he is trying to reprieve his client, but the fact stands - the truth prevails. We are going to get our independence. It is our duty, therefore, that prior to getting our independence things should be straightened out. We must see to it that our people face our independence with confidence. Where the money will come from or anything like that, we are not interested in. We are aware that the duties the headman is often called upon to perform are very important. The world would be in chaos without the co-operation and help of the headman. We have a tendency to speak in terms of party politics. That is not what we are here for. The hon member for Mqanduli must realise that. MR K. M. GUZANA : Why do you ask me to realise that? MR NDAMASE: Because you seem to object to this motion by implication because while you pretend to support the motion you take this opportunity to canvass for the rejection of the coming independence.
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have to go on today and in the future until it has brought forth some results. What we want to emphasize is that we are not against the motion as such. MR DIKO: Here is another question , Mr Chairman. You say you prefer a dialogue - how can you say you will have dialogue with a man who says he will have no dialogue with you? MR JAFTA: They have not said so. MR DIKO: They have said so. You cannot go to Cape Town. He still says it today. MR JAFTA: We are still talking today and things are happening today which they said would never happen. We support the motion, all of us, in this House. MR M. P. LUDIDI: Mr Chairman and hon members, the motion we are discussing is as clear as a white cat on burnt grass. It was not even necessary for the hon members of the Opposition to raise objections in devious ways. It is very clear obvious that there are no grounds for opposing such a motion, but simply because the hon members of the Opposition are now losing the support of the electorate (and this is happening, Mr Chairman, at a very critical time when we are facing the general election) so they must find ways - illusive ways of opposing a motion which is intended to promote the welfare of the Transkeian people. Then they tell us about racialism, they tell us if we continue to speak about the closing of the wage gap so that the wages and salaries of the black people of the Transkei be the same as those of their white counterparts in the Republic, then they accuse us of being racists. But, Mr Chairman, it is a fact that we have been paid discriminatory wages and salaries that is to say, racist salaries and wages. The colour of our skin has been the determining factor, therefore the argument of hon leader of the NDP is empty. Even the argument of one of the hon members of the NDP (I am very sorry to have to refer to their objections in their absence) shows very clearly that what these hon members are up to is just to electioneer, and in their attempt to canvass the votes of the electorate they will always blame the Transkeian Government, even if the Transkeian Government is saying exactly what they were saying some years ago. The debate was adjourned.
leaders speak about the removal of racial laws it is not because they are suffering from the complex of racism. It is the same with us. I do not think the leader of the NDP is fair when he refers to us as suffering from the complex of racism when we agitate for the closure of the wage gap. The closing of the wage gap between black salaries and white salaries is a moving away, a running away from discrimination. You may speak about human salaries, you may speak about racial salaries, but the fact remains we want the gap to be narrowed. MR C. DIKO: Not narrowed - closed. MR LUDIDI: In fact, we want it to be closed. This is understandable, Mr Chairman, in terms of the policy of the ruling party. We cannot move away from racial discrimination in respect of postal services, services in the police station, services in the Department of Justice and somewhere else in the Government departments , then when it comes to salaries we are still paid the same salaries that were paid to the black man before. This motion, Sir, calls on the Republican Government to do away with racial discrimination in so far as wages and salaries and concerned, and this must be done immediately or before independence. Now, coming to the practical side of the question, you take the example of the sessional allowances, Mr Chairman, paid to the hon members. These allowances are not apace with the standard of living. We are paid R8 a day and as members of this House we are supposed to stay in decent places. These places we think of in terms of the Transkei Hotel. Now there, Mr Chairman, you pay R5,50 a day, then you have to pay for your lunch and dinner which amounts to more than R3 a day, so that in the end a member has spent more than R8,50 a day. How do we expect members of the House to face inflation? How do you expect them to maintain themselves at a decent level? Now, Mr Chairman, this is a serious question. This is not because there is no money in the Republic or in Southern Africa. There is a lot of money that is preserved for the comfort of the white man. That is why we are calling for an immediate closure of the gap, and whether doing so entails the decrease of the salries of the white workers or having them sacrifice their luxurious salaries we are not concerned . All we are interested in is that the black people in the Transkei should be paid equal salaries to those of the Whites, and this must be done before independence. It is a grave question, Mr Chairman, to have to think that the independent State of the Transkei will be rejected by the United Nations and by the OAU because of discrimination and we have got to be very careful when we deal with this question. It is pretty obvious that the recognition of an independence Transkei wil depend on its recognition by the OAU and it is further obvious that our recognition as an independent state by the OAU is truly dependent on the complete closure of the wage gap. The question of closing the wage gap cannot therefore be divorced from the independence of the Transkei. That is why, Mr Chairman, we are calling for the closing of the wage gap. We are asking the Republican Government an easy thing if they are interested in our welfare. We want the clerk in the Department of Education, in the Department of Finance, in Agriculture and Forestry and even the people who are working in the kitchens to be paid realistic wages, and in the context of the South African situation it will only be realistic if they are paid salaries that are equal to their white counterparts in the Republic of South Africa. So, Mr Chairman , the hon members should support the motion without attacking the Government. Let us forget about attacking racial consciousness to this motion in order to be unanimous , then it will be clear to the world that the Transkeian Legislative Assembly is unanimous. The blame will remain with the Republican Government. Before I sit down, Mr Chairman , I want to warn hon members of
AFTER TEA ADJOURNMENT D/CHAIRMAN : Hon members, before the hon member continues it would appear to me that if there is no improvement in the attendance he is going to address an empty House. Please continue. MR M. P. LUDIDI: Mr Chairman, now that the hon members who objected to this motion are present I will take this opportunity to explain, and I feel the explanation is necessary because this motion has got to be supported unanimously by the members of this House. MR N. JAFTA: We have already indicated that. MR LUDIDI: Yes, I agree they have already indicated they are going to support the motion. They have done so in various ways, but at the same time their argument gave the impression that the Government was still on the platform of racism. As I have pointed out, Mr Chairman, the question of racial salaries and wages is a reality. In fact, it is a point on which every black man in this country focusses his attention . We have had strikes in the Republic because of these discriminatory scales of pay. Very often when the homeland leaders speak, they lay stress on that very question and you will not be surprised when I tell you that even the late Dr Verwoerd died because of the same thing. He died because he showed signs of relaxing the racial salaries. Mr Chairman, I would like hon members to draw their attention to the grounds on which the world argues when opposing the Republican Government, and this is the reason, Sir. It is apartheid. And what is apartheid? When you analyse apartheid, in the final analysis you will agree that apartheid is founded on discriminatory salaries. Very often, when the United Nations and the Organization of African Unity condemn the Republic of South Africa they don't say it is because they are colonialists there. It is because they are opposed to racial discrimination, and particularly to discriminatory salaries and wages. So when Dr Kaunda, Mr Nyerere, Mr Kenyatta and all the African
the Opposition, particularly the hon the Leader of the Opposition, because he holds a very influential position as a leader in the Transkei -- if he opposes this motion the way he has done MR K. M. GUZANA: Don't talk nonsense now. Where have I opposed it? MR LUDIDI: You have, by implication. MR GUZANA : Nonsense! Didn't you hear my words? Didn't you hear me speak? 61 .
all want good pay. D/CHAIRMAN: I think this motion has been sufficiently canvassed and therefore, in all fairness to the mover, we shall adjourn to give him a chance to summarize. The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until Thursday, 1 April 1976, at 11 a.m.
CHAIRMAN: Hon members, address the Chair, please. MR LUDIDI: At any rate, the hon Leader should stop attacking the Government on this motion. MR GUZANA: How can I lead the Opposition if I don't attack these people? That is my duty. MR LUDIDI : But you have no grounds on which to attack the Government on this motion. MR GUZANA: There was a racial tone in it. MR LUDIDI : But, Mr Chairman, the hon the Leader of the Opposition and those who have attacked the Government speakers on this motion stand to be condemned by the world. With those words, Mr Chairman, I support the motion. CHIEF N. M. MATANZIMA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I will say one or two words in support of this motion. The time is now ripe that these matters should receive attention and, in fact, should be achieved. The white people have long been playing the fool with us and in fact they have treated us as dogs. We hear a cry about clerks who steal money in all the government departments. I hope the hon the Leader of the Opposition will agree with me when I say if a person is not paid sufficient it follows that he will misappropriate money. How could you expect clerks to handle large sums money when they are paid such low salaries? Now and again you will find clerks leaving their offices to take up other employment because they are not paid good salaries. If the truth be told, a member of this House should be paid equally with a Member of Parliament in Cape Town. The salaries must be alike. The reason why I speak about white people is because it is the white people who enjoy high salaries. A white Member of Parliament in the Republic is paid R18 000 a year. I will not mention what we are paid because it was stated in the House yesterday. The Prime Minister of the Republic is paid R35 000 per annum; on the other hand the Chief Minister is paid only R14 000. Does this show that these people are not on the same level? An ordinary black labourer in Cape Town is paid R10 a week and a white labourer R25 a week. Is that fair? People from the Transkei are taken to these labour centres only to be paid R10 a week, despite the fact that they are liable to taxation. In fact, I think they are just giving presents to the clerks here because they are given R97 a month, We request that before it is too late the Government should see to these matters and those who are in authority should make suitable arrangements. Imagine if we all go and get food from the same dish at the same time! I say so because we all buy our suits from the same shop and we are charged the same amount for those suits. You can imagine a clerk receiving R97 a month going to buy a suit costing R80. It is expected that these clerks should appear at work respectably dressed with suits and ties. If they are paid this low salary they should go to work in overalls. It is said the police are very fond of accepting bribes. How can they do otherwise when they are not well paid? No arrangements have been made for their accommodation and they have to hire places to stay. All these matters should be attended to before independence because we are going to be given a country loaded with many responsibilities. Provision should be made first, therefore, by increasing wages and salaries. We request that we should be paid good salaries and when we talk in this Assembly we should appear as members of parliament. Fancy a man who has a family and has to send his children to school and he is only paid R14 a week! You will hear some people talking of compulsory education. Where will these people get the money to send their children to school? We hope that our good Government will confer with the Republican Government to give us all we require timeously. Everything has become expensive these days, and yet we receive no increase in our pay. Even liquor has increased in price. With what will we buy all our requirements? Mr Chairman, I indicated that I would not be lengthy, but we want money. We also, as black people, wish to use money. We have a right in this country and we should also have money. We must not be cheated by the white people so that you find there is some discrimination even in our salaries. You will be directed to address such a person as "baas". The leaders should attend to this. No-one can say that what is happening in Angola will not happen here. The reason is because these people do not enjoy good salaries. We
THURSDAY, 1 APRIL 1976
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS CHAIRMAN: Hon members, it has been indicated to me that the chief from Lady Frere who was supposed to be present for the administration of the oath has not arrived yet. CHEIF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon members, the member from Lady Frere district, Chief Z. Mhlontlo, is not able to attend the session because he is ill. I move that he should be excused. M/ROADS AND WORKS: I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. INCREASE IN SALARIES OF TRANSKEIAN CIVIL SERVANTS ETC. CHAIRMAN: Hon members of the House, it has been indicated to me that the motion has been thoroughly canvassed, so I shall call upon the mover to reply. MR C. DIKO: Mr Chairman and hon members, it is most unfortunate that I have to reply in the absence of the member for Mqanduli. However, I think his deputy will have to take notes and report to his master. I must begin by thanking the hon member for Qumbu for associating himself with the motives and intentions of this motion. We are all here to speak the language and work for the aspirations of the people we represent, so I definitely appreciate his remarks and the support of all the hon members who spoke on the motion. Now I want to read to the leader of the party which is supposed to be opposition , but personally I do not recognize it as opposition .... .. (Interjections) I want to read you from today's paper an article which says: "As far as other civil pensioners are concerned it is proposed that civil pensions be increased with effect from 31 October 1976 by 10% but subject to the minimum of R25 per month in the case of Whites and R15 per month in the case of Coloureds and Indians and R12 per month in the case of Bantu." Now, where do they get the audacity to talk for Europeans in this Assembly? He maintains that we who moved this motion and we who support it are racialists. The whole set-up of South Africa is based on race, so a man or a member who has never been in the struggle must just sit down and fold his arms and not talk in this House. The very member who is arguing for the Whites has run away from the teatching profession because he was least paid and he took up the attorney's profession because there he found himself on a par with the white attorneys. Now, is it not funny that there in his office he is charging the black man exactly the fees charged by other attorneys? Why should a man set up a new standard because he is against racialism? The hon member for Mqanduli is not even aware that this Transkeian Government is training young men as magistrates and paying them low salaries, and when they come to a certain stage they resign and follow his example and join the attorney's profession because the assistant and senior magistrates are not paid the same as the Whites. We get all these young boys running away from the service. I want this House to look thoroughly into the background of the hon the Leader of the Opposition. His big trouble is that somewhere in the background of Middledrift he was born and his father, who was a shoemaker, was sitting with the white boys ... CHAIRMAN : Hon members, I would request the hon member who is on the floor to desist from the tendency of personal attacks on members of the House. MR DIKO : Mr Chairman, when we are in this House we have to speak on behalf of the people and try by all our means to better their lot, so what I am 62.
a warning and he has said I must not refer to Angola. Why not? What we are afraid of is that as soon as 26 October comes and these people in the Republic have not given us enough money to close the gap, they will say: Let us look at Matanzima and see what he is going to do. They have all done that. So we don't want the Republican Government to do a wrong thing which has been done to our neighbours up north. They have always boasted of a Bantustan project which will defintely differ from those up north. I wonder if some of you have read that important book on the Transkei by Bellwood, "Whither the Transkei"? That writer says that we shall never go back on the path of separate development which is the path we have taken, and that has been proved by time. No amount of argument against independence is going to help us. We are marching forward to independence, so nobody must waste time here and argue against independence. Independence has been agreed upon and all we must guard against are the dangers of independence when it comes. One of the dangers which will face independence is non-equality of pay for the people. I am not being racialistic and I am never racialistic in my church, because I accept verybody, black, Coloured or white. I have no racism in my hut, but all I want is that a human being must be acceptable to all human beings. A person is an important piece of work by Almighty God and no-one in this world has the right to discriminate against other human beings. We are all sweating to make this country better than it was yesterday. Now, unfortunately I am always told not to speak by people who speak nonsense in this House. (Laughter) Why should a leader, rejected by the Congress of his party, be paid the fabulous sum he is being paid today a sum which should have been given to the leader of the party, Mr Ncokazi ? He is the leader of the party as far as the world is concened. So this man is paid in order to disturb the order of the House. CHAIRMAN: Order, please, hon members. MR DIKO: We used to say that the Blacks of this country have been divided into two groups as far as politics are concerned. There were those who were sellouts to the enemy and they are the fifth columnists. Now these fifth columnists are trying to seize the Transkei. They want to be in the good books of the white people by selling their people in the Transkei, so it is high time that we exposed them. What I want to finish up with is that no man must come to his Assembly deluded in he assumption that there are people who are racialistic on this side. When in the vote of no confidence the hon the Minister of Justice said we are nonracial, he was speaking the truth and we shall not be racialistic at any time. All we are asking is that the wage gap be closed and I am leaving it to the Prime Minister of South Africa where he will get the money. That R500 000 million indirect taxation from the black man that ever since the white man came to this country money is there and it is the money of the Transkei and that is why he was able to look after the Angolan refugees. (Laughter) It is our money from the Transkei. Let our people be looked after by the Government. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Question put and motion carried unanimously.
trying to emphasize in my remarks is that this side of the House is by no means racialistic. We are not racists, as was allged by the hon the Leader of the Opposition yesterday. In so far as a black man in this country is concerned there is no feeling of racism and psychologically we don't know the existence of race in our minds. We are never racists. So we excuse the Chair because he was not here and he does not know what this man said yesterday. (Laughter) So in my reply ... M/JUSTICE: On a point of order, I hope the hon member will not say anything about the Chair in his remarks. MR DIKO: Now, Mr Chairman and hon members, I am very sorry if I made a remark about the Chair, which was not desirable, and I withdraw it. What I want to emphasize is the hon the Leader of the Opposition is the leader of the RDP, not New DP. RDP is the Reject Democratic Party. The people have rejected him in all corners of the world, so that that proves they are led by a man who was rejected by 45 votes for Mr Ncokazi and 14 for him. So this is not the will of the people. It is something which was done for our own convenience. He is a very good speaker and he must be in this House because he is very sensible. (Interjections) Now, Mr Chairman, unfortunately a remark was made that I and members of the governing party are agreed that we do not want independence. Nobody ever said that. All I want to make clear is that independence we are looking forward to a separation of the Transkei as a territory and a State is not our own making. It is something which was made by the Government of the Republic because they did not want us to go to Cape Town, and we on this side of the House have accepted independence as the only alternaitve. I want you to get that very clear. Now, on this independence issue which is the only alternative we are talking about, we are only calling on the Republican Government to pursue it to its logical conclusion. All we want is that this independence - this thing which was never there in the history of the world. - must be made a living thing by the authors of it. They must finance it, and yet the hon member goes on to say we are asking too much from the Republican Government. Why? Why are we asking too much? We are not going to set up new standards, but the Prime Minister of the Republic has promised that in six months he will have closed the wage gap. We are not asking anything more than the closing of the wage gap between man and man. Equal pay for equal work for equal qualifications that is all we want. You see, some of us are easily deceived, educated as they might be. Now, let me give an example. It might be a black man — or a Kaffir, if you like who is a magistrate in the Transkei. (Laughter) Now, why say there is a magistrate working at an office in the Transkei and his counterpart in the Transkei is working in the same office, but why should one be termed a "seconded official"? Isn't that nonsense? The man who gets the money is from Pretoria and there is no money for the Transkeian. So to make an excuse for paying the white man better than the black man you must say he is a seconded officer. That is nonsense. You are holding the purse and yet at the same time you must divide things and say this one is a seconded official and this one is black. A magistrate of a district, be he white, yellow or black, must be paid what a magistrate is worth. That is all we are saying. We go further, and wish you are taking notes, Mr Deputy Leader. This hon member has made a remark that the headmen I speak of have no experience, no education. What is he talking about? Do you mean those superintendents of locations are more educated than I am? What idea is that? I have more education than those chaps and I must be paid as a headman. That is all I am asking. Where does he get the idea that a headman has no experience? By tradition a headman is born in the position of headman, and so is the chief, and the council of elders in that particular area is bringing him up for that position. He is well looked after; he is well trained for that position. So I don't blame the hon member for Mqanduli for not knowing, because, as I say, I don't know where he grew up. We don't want to make a fuss when we are warning our Government to warn the Republican Government of the repercussions that will follow if this thing is not put right very speedily. We are not making a fuss. We are sounding
ANNOUNCEMENT
M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman and hon members, before I ask your indulgence to say something before the hon member for Mqanduli moves the next motion, may I be allowed, with the leave of the House, to make an announcement. Agreed to. M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, I have just received notice to the effect that the hon the Leader of the Opposition will not be in the House for the morning session. He is held up somewhere in Mqanduli. With regard to Motion 6, Mr Chairman, I think what I have to say may help this House not to discuss something in the air. I wonder if the hon member would not make his motion more intelligible? As it is, it is most unintelligible. I do not know whether he asked somebody to interpret his views for him and he made a flop of that interpretation. The motion reads : "That in the opinion of this Assembly all labourers should be paid R3 a day.” All labourers paid R3 a day by whom? Employed by 63.
coming independence of the Transkei. This must not create any confusion. This land must be transferred to the Government smoothly. There must be no mumbling or quarrelling about this. The land belongs to us, the Blacks. It is in this very land which we claim to be ours. We are being blamed for accepting this peaceful independence of the Transkei. A lot of people think we are fools. They don't realise that this promised independence has given us a chance to hit back at the white man. They don't realise that this has provided us with a platform from which to riddle the white man with his own bullets. Some 13 years ago it would not have been practicable to put this across to the white man. This is possible now because we have accepted what they call a myth, so it is our duty as elected members to point out the truth. Whoever thinks otherwise about what I am saying is actually trying to woo the white man in his favour. It is very possible he has been hired to say so, because there are so many sell-outs today, as the hon member for Tabankulu said. We have got to make a claim for what belongs to us, no matter what the odds say. We want an orderly transfer of that part of the land which belongs to us. We want it transferred in the same way as those hostels which were formerly under the ministers of religion. When that was mentioned we accepted it not without some misgivings, but what has happened? All the people are happy. Now, we want to take this now. It must come to us before independence. No matter what the next man thinks it must be before our independence. Our independence is definitely coming, so we have got to clean the streets so that we walk smoothly towards it. There should be no impediments. We want our people to have confidence in us. The only way possible is that we speak the truth, no matter how hurting it is to the ally of the white man, and we are going to get our indpendence. These children must know exactly what is happening. They must know our political stand in this House. They must not be misled to think we are on a wrong track. We don't want them to be made slaves, hence our decision to accept this "myth" of independence. We are keeping a very watchful eye on the whole of South Africa. You must not be misled about that. The whole of South African belongs to the black man. If the white man is not prepared to accept us he must march back to Europe. CHAIRMAN : Hon member, order, please. You must keep to your motion. MR NDAMASE: So we want all farms which are at present in the hands of missionaries. I want to say "white" missionaries, because as far as I am concerned there is nothing wrong with our black ministers of religion, like the hon member for Tsolo over there, but I would not like to cause trouble for them. Since the white missionaries will be disillusioned and decide to leave this country, they may leave them to take over, but if they take over the enslavement of our people will that serve any good purpose? I think it would be a good thing to clear the house before they take over. That is the purpose of this motion, so I expect all hon members of this House to support this motion, because it is intended for the good of the African people who are at present living under slavery. I do not want the people of the Transkei to think otherwise about our well-informed political leader in the person of Paramount Chief Kaizer Matanzima. I do not want him to carry the blame for all these malpractices of the white man. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR H. PAMLA: Mr Chairman, I second the motion. MR N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I rise to speak on this motion. There are a few things I do not understand in the motion. Clydesdale and Etembeni are in Umzimkulu district, but I am aware of the fact that there are these mission farms all over the Transkei. MR PAMLA: It says "etc". MR JAFTA: The mover gives us the impression that the people domiciled on these farms are living on a very poor scale. I am not very clear about this because what I am aware of is that these people go to these farms of their own accord. They are not forced to do so. (Interjections) This does not seem to be true, because these people made application of their own accord to go there, so I am not prepared to accept the mover's assertion. I am of the opinion that this motion
whom? If it refers to the private entrepreneurs they have no right over the labourers employed by the Government and vice versa if it refers to the Government. The Government has no right over the labourers employed by private entrepreneurs. In any event, he says "All labourers" and we shall assume that he is including Government labourers and labourers employed by private entrepreneurs. May the hon member see the wisdom of amending his motion accordingly. MR P. N. NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman, I request to be allowed to go and put this right, because I was asked by the people to bring forward this motion. The people have given me this motion to bring to this House. I request that I should be allowed to amend this motion and that the next motion be proceeded with by the House whilst I am putting right this motion. CHAIRMAN: Is the hon member moving that this motion be suspended? MR L. L. MGUDLWA: I would second if the hon member ask that it be postponed until he has so amended his motion. Agreed to. ANNEXATION OF MISSION FARMS IN TRANSKEI MR E. V. NDAMASE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I move: "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should take over all the mission farms in the Transkei such as Clydesdale, Etembeni , etc., in Umzimkulu so as to alleviate the financial suffering of all the people domiciled on such farms." Mr Chairman, what must be made very clear from the very outset is that this motion seeks to remove all financial burdens imposed on our people staying in these mission farms. What must be very clear to everybody in this House is that this is not an attack on Christianity. That must be very clear. Firstly, I will crave the indulgence of this House to quote to all members here what the initial aims of Church ownership of farms was. (1) The purpose of Churches owning farms throughout the Transkei was as follows: (a) To bring the word of God to the heathens in terms of Christianity; (b) to start mission schools and other institutions for the purpose of carrying out an educational programme; and (c) to bargain for church members in the process of church colonization. (2) The foregoing aims have been achieved, and so the land should revert back to its natural owners, the black people, hence the move to take over such mission farms as Clydesdale and Etembeni. (3) The financial sufferings of the people domiciled on these farms are as follows: They pay property tax on behalf of the missions because the farms belong to the missions. They pay kraal tax in addition to property tax. They pay poll tax and stock rate for the cattle, sheep, goats, etc. I wish to say from the outset that I have no psychological qualms about this. With the independence of the Transkei on our doorstep it is the feeling of all hon members on this side of the House that whatever was done, and done by the oppressor for the sole purpose of oppressing the black man, should be removed. The white missionaries who came to this country deceived our people. Under the cloack of religion they misled our people. Whenever our people wanted to stand up for the truth they were discouraged on the grounds that they were doing something that was not wanted by God. (Laughter) These farms we are talking about, in actual fact they never paid a cent for them. These were handed over to them by our chiefs, yet these farms have now created slaves out of our people. Nobody is in doubt about the attitude of the white missionary towards the Blacks. I am going to quote this story in support of my contention. There was a fight between a white trader and a black man. The black man was a school teacher by profession. When the white reverend gentleman learned of the fight he said this black man was wrong because he was actually fighting God when he fought a white man. (Laughter) That is the wrong impression that has been conveyed over the years. Our children at school those you see in the public gallery - were fed on this poison, with the nett result that now people think otherwise about religion. I say this land must revert back to its rightful owners. As long as there are some small signs of white oppression we will never believe in the 64.
mkulu Secondary School the ninister did not want me to live on the farm. He refused me a place which had been offered to me by a Coloured teacher. Do you want us to suffer those things in the latter part of the 20th century? We have stressed in this motion the financial burden on the people who live on these farms. Now, I will quote facts and figures in respect of one mission. At Clydesdale people pay for what is called a kraal site R8,50 per annum, whereas in areas administered by chiefs you only pay R1. Then they have to pay property tax on behalf of the mission and this is determined by the size of your house or the number of huts. For instance, at Etembeni you pay R1 per hut, so if you have ten huts you have to pay R10. At Clydesdale they even count the number of rooms in a big house, with the result that a friend of mine who was very bitter on this matter is paying R12 per annum property tax. Now, this is in addition to the R8,50. Then he still normally has to pay R2,50 poll tax and if he has 20 head of cattle a 60c per beast stock rate. That is another R12 to pay. You know what you pay in church. It is 50c per quarter for a man, and if he is married it is another 50c for his wife. This works out at about R5 per annum. So you can find a poor widow faced with taxation amounting to R40. Now, the hon member wants us to fold our hands and say because these gentlemen brought Christianity they can just carry on. I would like to tell him that Christianity has done a lot of havoc in African society. It has produced a lot of detribalized Africans and, in fact, these mission stations were the breeding centres for Africans who knew nothing detribalized Africans about African law and custom because the unscrupulous white missionary branded everything African as pagan. I further want to tell you that these white gentlemen with clerical collars brought to our people a shrouded Christ, veiled in western culture. They did not bring Christ as Christ. Christ is neither eastern nor western. He stands for a set of principles that are applicable anywhere in the universe. He says for instance: Live and let live - and you find a white missionary paying a domestic 15c a day. My own mother was paid that by preacha white missionary. That is a white missionary ing all the Christian tenets of Christ - live and let live; do unto others as you would they should do unto you. Mr Chairman, this motion is straightforward and I do not think we should worry this House by arguing any further. MR H. H. ZIBI: A question, please, Mr Chairman. Are there any other districts that have similar farms? MR PAMLA: There are many. Mr Chairman, I would like to tell the hon member that this motion was thoroughly canvassed at our Congress, hence we put "etc". It originally came from my district, but we found so many people in the same trouble. I think that answers the hon member. The addition of "etc" is to indicate that this does not occur at Umzimkulu only. Now, we would like this financial burden removed through our Government negotiating with missionaries with the purpose of taking over these farms. Some of you do not really know how serious this thing is. Do you know that some families have had their children divorced from them through this church business? Your child goes to the labour centres and when he comes back he is a Watch Tower and his father lives on an Anglican farm. When the family goes to church in the morning he takes his suitcase and goes to various houses to preach in his own way. Of course, the big "amagosa" go to the missionaries and say: Look, we have a big preacher here. Then your child has to leave your house because of his religious beliefs. I do not think anybody can think that in South Africa we have a unique situation when the Church has cooperated with the State in carrying out a race strategy. They have so thoroughly refused to accept you that they will not even worship the Almighty with you. What they would rather do is to preach to you and even if you are an excellent preacher you dare not preach to them. If you want to know a practical case, when the late Rev Mokitimi visited Kokstad I was a teacher there and the position was so embarrassing to the white priest in charge when he found not more than five Whites coming to listen to the President of the Methodist Church because of his colour. You see, we can no longer tolerate such things in our society. We want land made available to our people and they
shows ingratitude in the manner it has been presented to this House because many of the hon members of this House and many other people are in the positions they are today because they were educated by the very people who are accused today. To say these people came to rob our people is not pleasant to listen to I take it that the mover quoted these farms as an example, but I take it he refers to all the mission farms in the Transkei. He says the missionaries never paid a cent for those farms. The position is that even the white farm owners never paid, just as the missionary farmers never paid. We can quote instances. There is no reason why the people who brought this good work to our nation should be expelled when there are many others who have done nothing for the development and upliftment of the nation. I am aware of the fact that the missionaries have title deeds to the lands where they are settled. What I want to know is this: When those farms are taken over by the Government will they pay the value of the farms according to today's market prices? When we discuss this issue let us be very clear about taking these farms from the missionaries. On paying for a farm one should study the potential of the farm. That is why I will not be able to support this motion. (Interjections) There are many people who took farms in the Transkei here and who never paid a cent for those farms. Could anyone explain the position of the paramount chiefs ' farms to me? What is the position of the farms owned by those people? (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR JAFTA: That is my objection to this motion. We are becoming quarrelsome towards people who have been helpful to us for many years. We are showing great ingratitude. Those are the few comments I wished to make. MR H. PAMLA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I am extrmely happy to have to speak after a religious fanatic has spoken. (Laughter) I want to repeat what I said when I moved a motion on the taking over of mission hostels. On that occasion I said I was not a religious upstart. I come from a tree that has been in religion for over two centuries, so that I am qualified to speak on such matters. We feel that a period has come when the missionaries should give us what belongs to us. The aims and purposes of evangelism have to some measure been accomplished. The youth can no longer be indoctrinated as our great grandfathers and forefathers were indoctrinated. You will realise that the early missionaries were not really spreading Christianity as such. It was church colonization. It was a scramble for the Church organization, a scramble for extending missionary services of a particular Church. The result was that these gentlemen went to the chiefs and to the people to get huge farms for sweet bugger-all. I am sure what obtains in Umzimkulu does obtain in some other parts of the Transkei in relation to this question of mission farms. I want to tell you that in Umzimkulu we have three huge mission farms that belong to three different denominations. If my information from a Roman Catholic Father is correct, Lourdes mission farm is about 8 000 acres of land, and Etembeni farm (where I was brought up and nurtured) is well over 3 000 acres. Clydedale mission farm is over 5 000 acres. The result is that in Umzimkulu we have very little land that belongs to the State. You will realise that when the Whites came from the Great Fish River, pushing up this way, they got to Umzimkulu almost at the same time with the Africans who were running away from Chaka. so that Umzimkulu was actually No Man's Land, as it were. That is why you will find several farms which were given to various tribes, by Adam Kok. Now, when I want these farms to be given back to our State and controlled by the Government, we are doing this from an economic standpoint and from no other malice. At the same time we feel that a period in our development has come when our people must have the freedom of worship. The hon member for Qumbu is not aware that people who live on a mission farm have a set of regulations and mission laws which they have to obey. One of the reasons I ran away from the mission farm and bought my own property was because of these same regulations. If you live at Etembeni, for instance, you must be a Methodist; at Clydesdale you must be an Anglican and at Lourdes a Roman Catholic. For the information of the hon member I want to tell you that when I taught at Umzi-
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MR P. N. NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support the motion. We have no time to play with the people. Today the people must enjoy their rights because the land is theirs. We were created by God in this Africa and it is therefore our right to enjoy things. Some wise people arrived and they found us ignorant. They grabbed all that was good and we were left with very little. All things change and now the old order is changing. They have been enjoying the fertility of our land and it is now our turn that we should enjoy the fruits of the land. It is time now that the people who boast the majority should be given a fair share and those in the minority should be given proportionately. If one is a person he should be entitled to a site which he can beneficially occupy and all other people should be given allotments in these mission farms. We like ministers of religion because they brought the word of God. They also brought education and they were not told to oppress us. No-one is given the right to oppress another, be he white or any other colour. All the people are entitled to human rights. In supporting this motion I say the Government should seriously consider this question. Those farms should be given to experienced black farmers so that there should be economic growth in this country. They should place all that work on the shoulders of the Government and we say the Government should give these parsons a place in which to live. We know that the Transkei is under the control of good men and they will be able to give those ministers a place to live. They ought to see that everything is put correctly so that everyone enjoys his heritage, so that no-one will be in a position to give away someone else's birthright. It is a source of sorrow when one grabs another's property. I therefore support this motion. MR D. J. NDLELENI: Mr Chairman and hon members, I believe no-one has disputed the fact that the ministers did bring something good to the people. They brought the Christian faith and they were of assistance in bringing education and culture up to a certain level. Today the Transkei is going to obtain its indepedence. Some white farmers are complaining because they fear their land will be taken and given to the Transkei. Even the residents of municipalities squeal when they have to hand over their buildings in the urban areas. We have black ministers and those people were making arrangements for a time like this. It is now time that these ministers should release the land they now possess and that is why this motion has been introduced to this House. We do not interfere with the Churches. They have their church sites but the farms should be released in favour of the Transkeian Government. We have not sufficient land in the Transkei, and we still need more land. We will request Pretoria to obtain more land for the Transkei. I am sure the ministers will agree to the handing over of this land because they will be refunded. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR NDLELENI : We are aware of the fact that if you have been given anything, say a garden, you develop it and when they have to give back the land they should be paid for their developments. GOVT MEMBERS: No. MR NDLELENI: That is what occured with the shops that were handed over. The shopkeepers have been paid for their shops. I only hope these ministers will communicate with Pretoria so as to get their refund. That should happen before 26 October this year, the day of independence. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: Are you amending the motion? MR NDLELENI: The shopkeepers were refunded for their developments by Pretoria and similarly these Churches should be refunded by Pretoria. The debate was adjourned.
must settle on it whether they agree or disagree with the religious doctrines of that particular Church. In other words, we want freedom of worship. You know, this game of missionaries is an old one. I remember reading in ecclesiastical history something about Alexander the Great. He went out to attack the AngloSaxons and all those people at that time and when he had conquered them he said: I have now finished them but I will send the missionaries to put the finishing touch. (Laughter) Even here that is what the missionaries have done. If there are certain members in this House who do not want us to get back our land I will remind them that these missionaries have levelled the matter and they have completed the task. With apologies to the minister next to me here. MR L. S. BALENI: Mr Chairman and hon members, this is the most important motion since this session started. I will make one more remark, just to explain to the hon members of this House. The body is the temple of God. At Clydesdale the minister found a number of residents had occupied the place long before he came. This is what happened. He held no discussions with the people on his arrival and did not even discuss things with the Government. He called all the residents on the farm and told them there would be no ploughing on the farm for 25 years. I do not think he would have done this if the residents had been white. Some of these people were born here and their grandfathers were born on these very farms. They were ploughing the land for a living and this minister comes with the instruction that there would be no ploughing for 25 years. The people are now appealing to the Government. We are here as people representing the people of God. That is why the people have appealed to us to ask the Government to deal with this matter. Let the Government take this land, please. The preaching of these ministers has long since ceased. The hon member for Qumbu says these people brought the good word to us. We do not deny that, but they have since left that off and are working for their own upkeep. Christ, according to the Bible, told his disciples to throw their nets over the other side and they caught plenty of fish and followed the Lord. Now this missionary says there will be no eating for those people. I wonder if this minister is still a preacher? Would I be wrong in working when this minister tells me I may not plough? Can hungry people pray? Now this minister has come to make people poverty-stricken on this farm. The Clydesdale farm used to be a very fertile farm and there was no stock to compete with our stock at Clydesdale then. The produce was wonderful then. Then the minister comes and says: Let there be no ploughing and let the people starve. In this House, Mr Chairman, we have people who will argue even when there is no argument necessary. I take it such people are people who will take the right road to heaven. We are representing the people here. These are not only our views. I would ask the Opposition member not to come with these ideas, because he is happy where he is and the people of Umzimkulu are suffering where they are. We would not like anything to happen to him. I have already said we are the chosen people of God. If it were not for God's wishes we should not be in this House. We are able to see wrong from right. If we are true leaders let the people get their leadership from us and not from this minister. The people who follow him will get lost. Every item in this motion has been thoroughly canvassed, Mr Chairman. This is clear, because there is no-one from the Opposition to speak against this motion except the hon member for Qumbu. I want to emphasize that this should be the case with all other areas where there are mission farms. Our people can appeal to nobody unless they come to our Government. Let us do our work as representatives of the people and God has accepted our service. Let the Government take all these mission farms and leave only the church buildings for the missionaries and let them preach in those churches. If they do not preach properly, let their followers dismiss them. If the minister does not do his work properly in his circuit he should be dismissed. The Anglican minister at Clydesdale has not been transferred. He has been there for ten years. I say this motion is reasonable. Let us agree on it. I will be very happy if all this could be published in the Press so that that Anglican minister can read about it. Even his seniors must know what we have said.
AFTERNOON SESSION CHAIRMAN: I shall now call upon the mover of this motion to reply. We have been awaiting his arrival. MR E. V. NDAMASE: Mr Chairman and hon members, this is really a very important matter because it seeks to save our people the trouble of paying unnecessarily. As a matter of fact there is a tendency among our people not to see things in their true light and in their proper perspective. Nobody can be misled 66.
had a loan from the XDC. I have stood on my own feet, unlike many of the hon members here. Let me come back to the point. Now, this chap manages the shop for about three years. After three years he is given a loan by the XDC, say R12 000, and the period of redemption of the loan is six years. While trading or trying to redeem the debt he still pays all the various taxes. He pays the instalment to cover the loan on the stock; he pays the rent to the SABT; he pays the property tax to the Bantu Trust; he pays insurance on behalf of the Trust; and he pays income tax. All these various taxes are being paid by this man. Say now after six years this gentleman finished the debt, now he remains distinct from the Trust. In other words, there were three years in which he was a manager in this shop. The other six years were spent on the redemption of the debt, so this young man has stood in this shop for at least nine years. Now, the Trust puts up the shop for sale and possibly an outsider with big money makes an offer. The offer is accepted and this young man is ejected from the shop. What is going to happen to his family? What is he going to do with the stock? How is he going to meet his liabilities? Mr Chairman, I submit that this is a very poor procedure and I just marvel why that hon member is carrying on interjecting when I am speaking on such an important motion. MR DUMALISILE : I am feeding you with facts. MR NOTA: I cannot hear those facts. I have got enough facts for myself. It is precisely on this point that I say all the Bantu Trust activities in the Transkei should be stopped immediately. I am sure the Transkeian Government would not do this thing. We could immediately talk to the Government because we are here with the Government. It is difficult to talk to the South African Bantu Trust because they are in Pretoria. Mr Chairman, let me come to the second part of my motion. The second part is that all these towns in the Transkei should also be handed over to the Transkeian Government. I know most hon members are not aware that these towns are not under our Government. They are not aware because they see that the Village Management Boards are being manned by our people. A big noise was made to the effect that our people are taking over the affairs of their various towns. They are being chairmen of the various town boards in the Transkei, but it was proved by those VMB members that the board itself was a mere dummy and our people are no longer interested in sucking dummies. The whole control of these towns is vested with the Townships Board. One might think that since the title is the Transkei Townships Board that that board is responsible to the Transkeian Government. It is not responsible to the Transkeian Government and therefore these towns are not under the Transkeian Government. During the time of this Transkei Townships Board there has been a lot of dissatisfaction among the inhabitants of the towns. There has been a scarcity of water while these officials of the Townships Board were moving through the Transkei in nice cars and white vans, and it means that these officials are taking the ratepayers' money from the various towns and using these moneys to further their own comforts. Most hon members who know will agree with me that many, many people in these Village Management Boards resigned. They resigned because they were dissatisfied with this dummy. They resigned because they were dissatisfied with the activities of the Townships Board. The only solution, therefore; hon members, is that the Townships Board should be dissolved and the activities of the Townships Board should be handed over to our Government the Government which we are able to talk to, the Government which we are able to censure. How can we therefore reject this motion which seeks to stop the activities of the Trust in the Transkei, which seeks to take over all the towns in the Transkei? Mr Chairman and hon members, I move accordingly. M/EDUCATION: I second, Mr Chairman. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon members, with the permission of the House I crave the indulgence that is being afforded occasionally_to me to sit down while I speak. First and foremost, Mr Chairman, I stand up to support the motion. The motion as put forward by the hon member for Mount Ayliff is twofold and I am going to deal with each of the two aspects of the matter. Firstly, we must have nothing to do with the South African Bantu Trust. All the pro-
as far as these hardships on mission farms are concerned. I need not elaborate any further about the sums of money involved. This has been clearly explained for all of us to understand. Nobody could have been in a better position to explain the position than the hon member for Umzimkulu. This motion enjoys the full support of both sides of this House. There is only one deviation - a misinformed so-called leader who did not fully grasp the meaning, who was merely fumbling in the dark, as a matter of fact. In any case I hope he has been given an explanation so as to know what course to follow. It is for that very reason, therefore, that I say this motion should be passed as it stands. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Question put and motion carried. HANDING OVER OF ALL TOWNS AND BANTU TRUST PROPERTIES TO TRANSKEIAN GOVERNMENT MR K. G. NOTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to hand over immediately to the Transkeian Government all towns and SABT properties in the Transkei.” Mr Chairman, this is not a contentious motion. However, I would like to remind the hon members, since they are a bit confused between the motion I introduced last year and this motion, that last year I introduced a motion which requested the Trust to fix the price of its properties and make that particular price or value available to the buyer or prospective buyer on request. The idea of that motion was to protect the people of the Transkei from being exploited by the Trust, but that did not happen. The Trust did not fix the price of the properties, nor was any price made available or is being made available to any buyer on request. The present motion seeks to stop the activities of the South African Bantu Trust in the Transkei. MR M. J. DUMALISILE : After 26 October? MR NOTA: Immediately. You look at the motion. We are requesting that the Trust should have nothing to do with these properties, but the properties should be handed over to the Transkeian Government, as well as all the urban areas. Can you not see the differnce? Mr Chairman, I even went further last year to explain to the hon members why the Trust itself was ever created. I am still going to repeat that. The Trust was created in order to buy land released for Bantu occupation and to hold those properties in trust until bought by the Bantu people. That is a good idea. However, the Trust is not being operated for the material benefit of our people at the moment. It has created a lot of discontent and disatisfaction among our people at the present moment. What is the present position, Mr Chairman? The Bantu Trust has a number of properties in the Transkei. MR DUMALISILE: The whole Transkei is Bantu Trust. MR NOTA : It has shops in the rural areas, it has properties in the towns and it is leasing these properties to the people of the Transkei. It terms these people as Occupiers. Now, the occupier pays rent to the Trust. The occupier pays property tax to the Transkeian Government on behalf of the Trust. The occupier pays insurance for the property of the Trust on behalf of the Trust, because the Trust was exempted from taxes by legislation. Now, these people pay all these various taxes on behalf of the Trust. The Trust has put up for sale all its properties in the Transkei and advertised them in various magistrates' offices. I wonder if the hon gentlemen would say that is a nice procedure? It has not been done in consultation with the people occupying these properties. I will give an example in order to illustrate how poor this procedure is. Take the example of Mr A, being a young man. He joins the XDC, he trains as a manager. Actually, he trains for management for one year. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: Like yourself. MR NOTA: I am giving an example. He is given a shop to manage. (They are correcting me, Mr Chairman. They are saying it is for six months. I made that mistake because I have never been managed or trained. I have got my own shop). (Interjections) I have never
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Meanwhile people have suffered ante-datedly till the minute is received. We have got to be realistic, hon members, because this affects us, and prior to whatever you may call your independence this will ever remain a pinprick. I warn you according to my rules — L. L. Mgudlwa, MP for Engcobo, and I am elected by popular majority - without any qualms that the sooner the contents of this motion are carried out to the logical conclusion, the better. It has been said by the mover of the motion that he moved a motion the results of which we have never been made aware of in this House, Apparently the motion was carried unanimously by this House, but to what avail? We talk and talk in this House but to no avail. It is high time - - I warn you according to my rules, hon member. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHIEF N. M. MATANZIMA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support this motion as it stands. Let the Republican Government be aware that that which belongs to Caesar is Caesar's. This administration by the Transkeian Townships Board has meant that since the white people left these boards people were elected to committees and these committees were never financed. You will find that these towns are without water and the streets are in a terrible condition because there is no money to finance these services. We cannot praise what the South African Government is doing because they have left us to do everything for ourselves and yet we are not able to finance the projects they have started. Let this Townships Board be got rid of and the towns come to the Transkeian Government so that the Government may administer the towns in a suitable manner. These towns which have been administered by the Transkei Townships Board are in such a state that one cannot travel by car or even on horseback through the streets. Then we are informed that the administrator of these towns is somewhere in Pretoria and he is not aware of what is going on because it does not affect him. We are aware of the Village Management Boards to which we are supposed to bring our complaints, but we are quite aware that the administrator of all these boards is in Pretoria. We are looking forward to our independence and we shall be having many visitors to celebrate our Independence Day. How will they travel if there are no proper streets? We would urge the administrator to hand these villages over to the Transkeian Government to enable us to prepare the place as we want it. It will be a sad thing for us to travel over rotten roads the day we celebrate independence due to the fact that the administrator of these roads is in Pretoria and does not care what the roads are like. We would be happy if these Townships Board people were living near to us in the Transkei so that they could see what is going on. When you get to the properties that belonged to the Whites and are to be sold to the Blacks, then you find a sad state of affairs. When a person wants to buy a property he is asked to make an offer. The buyer then makes the offer and he is told to wait while the offer is considered by Pretoria. After nine months a reply comes rejecting your offer. This reply comes from people who are in Pretoria who are unaware of the difficulties and how impossible it is for a black man to have the large amount they demand. He will never be able to buy this house for the price asked. As it is, usually the Whites have been brought up to inherit properties,and they are accustomed to this idea that they must earn a living out of the proceeds of the properties they have left in the Transkei. To give an example, there is a teacher in the town of Tsomo who has a property but because this has been declared a black property for black occupation this teacher has since changed his residence and the house is standing empty and nobody may occupy it because it belongs to a White. I refer particularly to the principal of Jongilizwe School who has a house in Tsolo, but who has since left that house and lives in Umtata. Because we have no authority over this house we would have to make application to the Bantu Trust in Pretoria to get permission to occupy this property. This holder of the site in Tsolo is given transport allowance by the Government to travel every day from Umtata to Tsolo where he could have stayed. This Bantu Trust is confusing because the Roads and Works Department gives this particular government employee transport to travel to Umtata, knowing that this employee has a place to stay in Tsolo. It is said
perties that are old and in fact are genuine firewood as far as I am concerned must be taken over immediately and we must have nothing to do with that South African Bantu Trust. M/JUSTICE : Are you making an amendment? MR MGUDLWA : No. M/JUSTICE : Well, the motion says nothing about having nothing to do with the Bantu Trust. MR MGUDLWA: You were not here when the speaker was piloting his motion. Really, Mr Chairman, you have to call for order because the hon Minister seems to be so uninformed. Please keep quiet. (Laughter) I have been experienced in fact with the South African Bantu Trust. M/JUSTICE: "Experienced with" - don't talk Nyassa language. MR MĞUDLWA: I have been experienced with Bantu Trust activities in the Transkei, and not only in the Transkei but Republic-wise where the valuation of a property will be valued by the Government valuattors at such-and-such a price and then when you go there and conduct an inspection in loco .... M/JUSTICE: When who goes there? MR MGUDLWA: Whoever goes the prospective buyer. M/JUSTICE : That's right. Don't say “you” go there. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR MGUDLWA: Now and again the Chairman will call for order because this hon Minister interferes so much. (Laughter) Now, when you go there on behalf of the buyer — his legal representative goes there to value the property - he will find it is genuine firewood and it is far less. Everything there is genuine firewood. (Laughter) Now, where is the justification for the South African Bantu Trust? I even challenge the word “Trust” because I suppose they have been put in a position of trust. M/JUSTICE : You talk too much and you drown your facts in your vociferous speech. MR MGUDLWA: I would suppose that if, in fact, it was entrenched and enshrined in the Constitution of the then Union of South Africa as well as the Republican Constitution .... M/JUSTICE: What Constitution is this? MR MGUDLWA: You don't know because you are power-drunk with independence and that is the only Constitution you know. There would be, in fact, the State President who used to be the Governor-General at the time, so empowered to reserve the lands as well as these properties in trust, but it was for the South African Bantu Trust where you find neither that Bantu Trust existing nor even the Governor-General or State President being empowered. Now therefore why should we be not ad idem on a motion seeking immediately to stop the activities of the South African Bantu Trust. They hold no good for anyone so far as we are concerned - the "Bantu" with the capital letter. (Laughter) The plight of the managers who have been managing these shops has been fully dealt with by the mover of the motion. Who in this House is not aware of the difficulties that have been placed on the shoulders of such men in order that they may be deprived of the very management? Having undergone training, wasted their time and money, and gone out of their way to sacrifice after all that they are paid the price of being left to go to hell. (Laughter) Isn't that a cruel procedure? Who can put up with that? A reasoning person and in fact if a play is to be played, why should we not be ad idem on this motion? The second part of the motion is in connection with the transfer of the towns. Maybe amongst us here there are just a few who are aware, as the mover of the motion has disclosed to us in this House, that many of the towns are not under the Transkeian Government. The very Townships Board is controlled by the Republican Government. Why should this Republican Government always poke its nose into the affairs of people they say are self-governing? If they are self-governing, why not let people govern themselves? There is the incidence of resignations from these dummy boards which results in stagnation in services for the whole village community. Who is the sufferer? Is it not the person on the spot? Meanwhile, the person in Pretoria who is controlling all the strings is very, very happy and he is living in luxury. A minute may be addressed to him today and it reaches him three or four days later. 68.
that the children of this land have to suffer without accommodation and yet people who are employed come and stay in hotels when they still have properties elsewhere. We have some government employees at Cofimvaba but they are not allowed to travel daily to come to Umtata. Our difficulty is very clear in connection with the shops under the Bantu Trust in Pretoria. A black manager is given the use of an XDC establishment and after a few days the health inspector comes in and declares the place unsuitable for trade. The man then has to move elsewhere. This particular manager on arriving at this trading station decides to get used to the people in the place so that he can conduct hsi business well, and thereafter he has to transfer because the place is declared unfit for business. He is transferred by the XDC but when he gets to the new place he has to start all over again submitting applications to the tribal authority in order to conduct his business there. When people say the place where this business has been conducted is no longer suitable then the XDC says they will transfer their manager from that place to another place. I have never seen an employee employed by a company who, on arriving at a trading station, must now start applying for trading rights at the place he was transferred to That is why we ask that all these trading stations and towns which were controlled by the Whites must be handed over to the Transkeian Government. We are being fooled by the Whites because we are told this is a TTB set-up, and we could take control of these towns. Then you get the XDC group again. Those are the employees of the Bantu Trust. They come with the impression that the Transkeians are doing these things for themselves but in the meantime these things are controlled by the Whites. If they want to see the success of our own development, let these Whites in Pretoria hand over all these things which we demand from them. The committees established in these locations have nothing to do. You go and complain about the condition of the roads and they have no information to advance to you, and yet they are said to be the TTB. One thing I would say is that whenever these committees are set up by the Pretoria administrators, consultation should be held with the Transkeian people so that decisions are not made in Pretoria far away. People have no accommodation in these towns and every time an application is submitted the reply comes back that there is no place. In the meantime the Bantu Trust is well accommodated and the poor African is suffering because he has no accommodation. The Whites must be aware that we are so developed that we are well educated in the standards of living. It must be very clear that all they are doing is not because they are better educated than we are. It is just because they are selfish and when we conduct correspondence with them making these demands we receive a big "NO". Usually when we Xhosas make a demand and you refuse, we resort to something else. They are aware that our rights have been taken by them. We don't even have a licence to possess an ordinary spear. Let this thing be done in a satisfactory way. It is not that we are happy in this country. We are not happy and the white people should appreciate the Angola situation. MR P. N. NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support this motion. This person called the Bantu Trust has taken a lot of our privileges and this person called the Bantu Trust charges a high rent if one should go and occupy a building which was occupied by a white person. At my place the Trust also took government properties which have a very high rental. Even if that building is so dilapidated that it becomes wet when it rains, this Bantu Trust will raise the rent for the occupant. I heartily support this motion. When these people are given a shop and the roof of the shop leaks there is no-one to carry out repairs. I have also experienced the case mentioned by the mover of the motion when he stated that somebody was in a shop but another person made an offer and the first one was kicked out. This man did not know what to do with his stock and he had to hire a place to keep that stock. He was taken by surprise when this shop was sold. If one sustains an injury and has to be compensated, the Bantu Trust refuses to follow up that case to find who should get the money. When a person dies without any issue and the next-of-kin is brought to claim, the Bantu Trust will say they want that person's
own child. They will refuse to pay the money to the next-of-kin but will take it upon themselves to keep the money. The Bantu Trust is not prepared to help anybody with anything. When the next-of-kin cannot be found then the Bantu Trust takes the money. I wish to state emphatically that the Bantu Trust is no good whatsoever and the Government should transfer all these properties to the Transkeian Government. We are people who want the genealogy of the deceased person traced so that the next-of-kin, who is the would-be heir, can succeed to such property. I can take you to some of these places. There are certain shops that are so old and so dilapidated that they cannot be repaired. When the Bantu Trust took over we were of the opinion that at least we would pay lower rates. The rent payable is too high, so that no-one is able to meet it. If there is something that needs to be repaired the occupier of such building has to do the repairs and make a statement of the amount spent, but he is never reimbursed. We wish to have nothing to do with this Bantu Trust the day we are given independence. The money belonging to the people is in charge of this Bantu Trust and yet this body has not sympathized with the people. Even the person who would take over from the Bantu Trust should be asked to consider the standards of people namely, that they have no money. The properties in town should not be sold at high prices because the people have no money. We should be given these lands and we should price them ourselves, because they think we have money though, in fact, we have none. Though we stay in the administrative areas and have no money, yet we want to go and stay and occupy those buildings in the urban areas. The Bantu Trust seems to regard it as a priority to give first chance to people who have money. What actually happens when somebody occupies such buildings is that the magistrate usually tells the occupier to leave the building he has no money. It is customary for us to help one another. In fine, Mr Chairman, I support this motion. The Government should seriously consider the question of this motion when you think of what happened in the Middle East when people were told to leave. We want to stay in the towns although we have no money. Let us force these people out of the buildings. (Laughter) MR D. B. MXUTU: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to endorse the words of the last speaker under this motion which stands under the name of the hon member for Mount Ayliff. It is very fitting that the Republican Government should hand over all the villages and towns to the Transkeian Government. The advent of independence for the Transkei will expedite the appointment of town clerks and other people who work in those towns. As we know, all these properties which cannot be bought by the Transkeian citizens direct from the white sellers are taken over by the South African Bantu Trust and remain the property of the latter until a buyer is available. Negotiations for buying these properties go through a long and tiresome process which sometimes get to the XDC via Pretoria. D/CHAIRMAN : Hon members, there is too much mumbling in this House and people are conversing with each other while someone is holding the floor. Will the speaker raise his voice so that the stenographer can hear what he says. MR MXUTU: Mr Chairman, I say it would shorten the process if the towns were handed over to the Transkeian Government, because some of these properties could in fact be got direct from the Transkeian Government without going through the Bantu Trust process. Take a case of somebody who is renting a property for trading purposes in,these towns. While one is trading the health inspectors come and say the place is dilapidated, it needs renovation and repair. I want to know how the valuator ever passed something that is dilapidated. The lessees pay rent which, I suppose, is stipulated according to the value of the property or what he makes out of the sale of his property. You submit to the South African Bantu Trust the findings and the report of the inspectors, and the South African Bantu Trust in turn writes back to the Department of Roads and Works in the Transkei asking them to effect the necessary repairs and renovations. This takes some time and in the meantime the inspectors have said that if you don't put this property right they will chase you out. What is going to happen to this figure who is now 69.
not sufficient money to meet these exorbitant prices charged by the Trust when they purchase these properties. I do not say the Transkeian Government will give these properties to its citizens gratis. Taking an example of what happened in Port St John's, a certain property there was bought for thousands of rands. When it was sold by its owner to the South African Bantu Trust by its owner it realised over R1 million. It is a seaside resort and we all want to have seaside resorts, but who can pay this amount of about RI million? Even our companies cannot afford this money. Our Government will take that situation into consideration, but the Trust cannot do that. If one requires that seaside resort he will have to pay more than was paid to the Trust for that property. Mr Chairman , as I have already said, there is not much to say on this now, so I will sit down. Question put and motion carried unanimously. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday, 2 April, 1976.
in this property and who has his stock in the building? He finds himself in a fix between the devil and the deep blue sea. It would therefore ease the matter if these properties were taken over. You will find some vacant properties in town, as it has been said, and you get them through an agent -- in this case the magistrate and he does not give these people these properties. In the meantime people have nowhere to stay and they want vacant houses. All they are told is that they have to write to Bantu Trust for approval. As I was saying, there are these agents or intermediaries for the Bantu Trust - the magistrate of the district. Now, when you want to buy property they will tell you you must make an offer, and it is high time this secrecy about the value of these properties ceased. The only way by which this secrecy will cease is to hand over these towns and villages to the Transkeian Government. When you make this offer they are so slow. One wonders why there is this secrecy about public property. So the best and shortest way is to hand over all these properties to the Transkeian Government. MR H. H. ZIBI : Mr Chairman and hon members, I think we are all agreed as far as this motion is concerned, and I suggest we should pass on to the next item. (Interjections) We are all agreed that we are definitely not satisfied with the appalling attitude of the Bantu Trust towards the people in regard to these properties. MR D. J. NDLELENI : Mr Chairman and hon members, I think it would be wisdom for the Republican Government to consult with the various departments connected with these properties so that arrangements to transfer such properties to the Transkeian Government should take effect before the date set for independence, because independence is a reality. We have heard rumours that certain countries will not be prepared to accept us when we are independent, but it is incumbent upon us in the Transkei to work side by side with the Republican Government so that we should be accepted. We will have to prove to the world that this is not a sham but an accomplished fact and it is for that reason that we have introduced this motion, so that when the date comes there should be no doubt as to these properties referred to. We have only one item which we have left in abeyance, and that is the question of boundaries which we have stated clearly we shall persist in making application for, even after independence. We are trying to work hand in glove with the Republican Government, therefore the Republican Government should also help us and have these properties transferred to the Transkeian Government. After we have received or accepted transfer of these towns we entertain hopes that there will be occupations open for our youth. We have no town clerks and we want such people. We want all the staff, including the mayors, to be black people. It is for that purpose that we request the Government to expedite this matter. The owners of these shops and buildings which have been taken over were paid out by the South African Bantu Trust and therefore this rent which is being collected by the Republican Government should now be paid over to the Transkeian Government. We have no councillors who would be under the town clerks in these towns. When you go to those towns which are completely black you will find that there is no progress being made at all and then it is said that the black people cannot manage these towns. When that remark is made it is not true that the black people are in control, because these towns are still under the control of the white town clerks. In fine, I must say there is still a lot to be done, especially the question of the boundaries of the Transkei. We know what the boundaries were. We will only settle all these things through peaceful negotiation with the Republican Government. D/CHAIRMAN : Hon members, I am sure I am expressing the view of this House when I say this motion has been sufficiently canvassed. That being the case, I shall now give an opportunity to the mover to summarize. MR K. G. NOTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, it is clear that all the hon members of this House agree or see eye to eye on this motion. There is no need, therefore, for me to be lengthy. However, it is necessary that these properties of the South African Bantu Trust should be transferred to the Transkeian Government. The Transkeian Government knows that its people have
FRIDAY, 2 APRIL 1976 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS
CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon members, I am sure that this House and the Transkei as a whole will be pleased to know that as from 1 April 1976 what was known as the Xhosa Development Corporation has been transformed in the Transkei into the Transkei Development Corporation and will be a development institution under the Transkeian Government with membership appointed by the Transkeian Government. MR H. PAMLA: Hear, hear CHIEF MINISTER : This is an indication of the direction towards which the Transkei is moving. This good work is on the move and whoever tries to obstruct it will be destroyed. I advise the hon members in front of me that those who love the Republic and wish to be under the Republic's wings will please pack up their belongings before 26 October 1976 and leave this country. CHAIRMAN : Hon members, I have received this communication from an hon member of this House. It reads as follows:- "In view of the new stand taken by King Sabata Dalindyebo of the Tembus in an endeavour to reorganize and restore order to our Democratic Party, of which I am a staunch member, I wish to state that I stand solidly behind the paramount chief. Signed: N. P. Nkosiyane. M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, I can see the hon member moving away from his seat but he has not indicated that he is resigning from that party which he has been supporting, except that he is standing solidly behind the paramount chief. We don't know what "standing solidly behind" means. He must tell this House, if at all that is to convey any meaning to this House, that he is resigning from that party and standing as an independent, as the hon Paramount Chief Sabata is. There are many different ways of standing solidly behind the hon Paramount Chief. MR P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman , I wish to explain to the House that I am joining the Independants. MINIMUM WAGE OF R3 PER DAY FOR LABOURERS CHAIRMAN : Hon members of the House, before we deal with next item, Motion No 8, the mover has indicated that he wishes to make an amendment to the motion. I call upon the hon member. MR P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman, I have already handed in my amendment. CHAIRMAN: The amendment reads : "That in the opinion of this Assembly all labourers employed by the Government should be paid R3 a day." Before the hon member stands up, I would refer this House to Rule 37(1 ) of the Rules of Procedure of this House: "It shall be out of order to attempt to reconsider a specified question on which the Assembly has taken
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danger of being arrested. It is for that reason I have come to this House with this motion, so that people should be given more time to register. Further, those officers responsible for registering these people should be paid some emolument so that they can travel through the area to register people and be able to provide themselves with food and other necessities. I therefore request the Government and the hon members of this House to consider the matter contained in this motion. MR S. A. XOBOLOLO: I second the motion, Mr Chairman. M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman and hon members, were it not for the wording of this motion I would, together with this side of the House, not worry about opposing it or doing anything about it, but because of the wording this side of the House is going to oppose this motion. The motion says that the time to register as voters should be extended. Now, I wish to advise this House that as a result of frequent and many requests we have received from the urban areas with regard to the extension of time for registration, the Department of the Interior considered the practicability of giving an extension of time for the registration of voters but found, most regrettably, that such a step would not be practicable because of the general elections which will be some time in September. The Department of the Interior requires time for compiling the voters' roll and were the time for registration to be extended that would not be practicable within the time from now until September. The question of the Glen Grey, Cofimvaba and Herschel districts should not be taken as a general rule. It was a question of exception with regard to those three districts. Because of the pending byeelections in those three districts the registration had to be suspended at a certain time and to compensate for that time they had to be given a further extension of a month after the polling day in April. Because this only affects three districts the Department of the Interior can cope with the rush in compiling the voters' roll in regard to those three districts. I hope the hon member for Mqanduli will understand the position. If he does not listen and goes on with this motion he must know that he will be embarking on a fruitless errand. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN : In view of the explanation rendered by the hon the Minister of Justice I would ask the mover if he will not withdraw this motion because futile discussions and fruitless motions in this House are not encouraged. MR P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman, the reason why I will not withdraw this motion is because these people in the meantime could be registered even if they did not have time to cast their votes. M/JUSTICE: All right, carry on. We will oppose it. MR NKOSIYANE : The reference books of these people will therefore bear the registration stamp. CHAIRMAN : Hon member, I was indicating to the mover that this House has no time to waste in futile discussions. Any reasonable member in the circumstances would withdraw his motion. I call upon the mover. MR NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman, I withdraw the motion because the Government will not allow me to bring this motion into the House because they are not prepared to help the people. I wish that to be known. (Laughter) The motion was withdrawn.
a decision during any previous session, except on a substantive motion to rescind that dicision, made with the permission of the Chairman or Deputy Chairman." If members will turn to page 122 of the 1975 Hansard they will see that the hon member moved: "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of raising the wages of Transkeian Government labourers to a minimum of R2 a day." In other words, it would appear that this question is the same as the one that is being raised today. I put the matter to the House. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, I think the matter is not in the hands of this House but in your hands, Sir. A reading of that provision simply states that the matter will then be out of order. CHAIRMAN: Hon members of the House, I feel that this hon member's motion is out of order and I rule accordingly. EXTENSION OF FRANCHISE REGISTRATION PERIOD MR P. N. NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I move:- "That in the opinion of this Assembly the time to register for the forthcoming general elections should be extended for two months because the majority of people who are ignorant of the voting system have not been accorded ample time to register. Glen Grey, Cofimvaba and Herschel are still continuing to register." The reason why I move this motion is because of what I saw when registration took place in some areas. It was stated that people should register and the clerks in the tribal authorities were required to undertake this registration. As these clerks have to go round the administrative areas registering people they meet with difficulties because they were not provided with finance. As they did not raise any complaint the registration was not properly carried out. We do not know how people become registered as voters. The usual procedure is for some officers to be sent out. They convene meetings at the headmen's places and there registration is effected. This procedure has not been followed and, above all, these tribal authority clerks have had no training in the registration of voters. Mqanduli is a very large area and there are a number of chiefs in that district. These tribal authority clerks remain in the office and the people who are far away, right on the coast, will not know about this registration. Who will tell them? Prior to this some officers were sent out to inform the people about registration. These officers convened meetings and so the people were advised and shown how to register. These officers were provided with cars and they visited all the chiefs in our district in turn. This procedure is not being followed at the present time. The tribal authority clerk remains in his office. It is for this reason I say registration is not being satisfactorily conducted. At first the people did not like to register because they were often told when they produced their reference books that they should go back to Matanzima as soon as they had registered, but today they realise the importance of registering. They want to be registered because even if one produces his reference book and it is seen he has not been registered as a voter he is told to go back home. When these people go to the labour centres they generally meet a difficulty because they have to produce proof that they have registered. Many people who are in Johannesburg or on the mines or in Cape Town are in difficulties because they are usually questioned as to why they have not registered as voters, because there is no stamp in their reference books to show they have been registered as voters. Again, when one loses his reference book the endorsement made in that reference book is not entered in the new book, and these people cannot prove that they are registered voters. There is a fear that when one has no stamp in his reference book one will be arrested, particularly with the coming of independence. The police will arrest people. You will find that when you go out in the district it is only the black people who are questioned. When a man is at the labour centres and is out of work and has to go into town he is usually confronted by an officer and questioned about his reference book and his registration as a voter. If one should be found with his reference book and the stamp impressed therein he is in no
INCREASE IN SUBSIDY FOR PURCHASE OF STUD STOCK MR J. M. SIGWELA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I move as follows:- "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should consider the advisability of increasing subsidies granted to farmers by the Transkeian Government when purchasing bulls and rams to a 50/50 basis." Mr Chairman, this is a self-explanatory motion and does not warrant much discussion. People in the rural areas of the Transkei are ready and anxious to improve their stock, but the difficulty is the depreciation in currency and the increase in the price of stock. People derire to improve their stock as much as they can. People now do not believe in possessing a lot of scrub stock which fetch very poor prices at stock markets. The question now revolves round bulls and it is only 71.
prepared to pay for his improvements. Over and above that, it must be remembered that these subsidies are only to assist the farmer and that we get this money from the taxes of the poor widows. A man who wants to breed cattle is, generally speaking, a big guy. I personally sympathize with the motion but I am afraid, Mr Chairman, that owing to scarcity of funds it would be very difficult for the Minister to support this. However, I do not wish to discourage hon members from debating this motion. I am merely voicing the views of the department. MR K. M. GUZANA: What are your views? M/AFRICULTURE : I have told you that any farmer who wishes to buy a bull should do so. For instance, if you are asking me I would be very glad of the subsidy of R55. MR T. N. SIGCAU : Mr Chairman and hon members, I will not say anything much because the motion is straightforward and the hon the Minister of Agriculture has explained everything to us clearly, but the thing I want to stress is the importance of farming in the Transkei, because the economic viability of any State depends largely on farming. That is why we want good bulls and rams. Another thing is that a State which relies mainly on imports cannot be a sucessful State financially. For instance, it will not be a good thing to have to import such things as meat and milk. I would say that if we could have rams of good quality our wool can be improved, and we could even export woollen products. I am therefore requesting the hon the Minister of Agriculture at least to increase subsidies because of the escalating prices as a result of inflation, which is a trend all over the world. For instance, you cannot get a good-quality bull now for less than R300, so if at least the Government can grant a subsidy of R100 that would assist greatly. As I have said therefore, Mr Chairman, the motion is clear and straightforward and I will not say more than I have said now. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, whilst I am not a stock owner myself the farmers have my warmest sympathy in this regard and I feel this is a very important motion as far as stock owners are concerned. Anybody who comes to the Transkei always remarks on the potential of our agricultural and pastoral industry. In replying to the motion of no confidence the hon the Minister of Justice indicated to this House that this potential is enormous. Indeed, to me this aspect of neglected development is more important than all the industries which have been set up in the Transkei put together, and I say this for the reason that almost 95 % of the population in the Transkei owns stock, no matter what quality and what quantity. In other words, they do have something which can be developed, and development of their stock is evidence of this principle of beginning from the known to the unknown in developing under-developed people. A man who has stock seeks to get the most out of it and, in order that he should be able to get the most out of it, this Government should realise that it is its responsibility to subsidize heavily the purchase of bulls and rams in order to have this stock improved, so that the pastoral farmer can diversify into rearing beef cattle, rearing beef cattle, rearing milk cattle, rearing wool sheep, rearing mutton sheep, rearing both wool and mutton sheep. As a result of that development we may find ourselves producing sufficient to warrant the establishment of secondary industries so that your red meat goes into the meat-canning factory, that your hides and skins go into a tanning or leather factory, your wool goes into the spinning and weaving factory, your bones go into the manufacture of combs and such things. The horns can be turned into ornamental objects so that by increasing and improving your stock you begin to have a diversified secondary industry developing in the Transkei , so that the rural African who goes into the shop to buy himself a woollen blanket says: This is the manufactured article from the wool that I clipped at such-and-such a time. The beef I am buying is the meat of my ox which I sold. There will therefore be motivation for the people to increase the raw product which goes into the secondary industry which ultimately is sold over the counter and they therefore relate to pastoral industrialization. The Department of Agriculture and Forestry should not take up the attitude of the ostrich with its head in the sand. All of us realise that pedigree stock is expensive, and what is a subsidy
a good bull that will improve the quality of stock. The Government is encouraging us to buy these good bulls to improve our stock. The Government assists us with a subsidy to the extent of R55 per bull and the owner has to pay the difference. Because of the increase in the price of bulls we feel the balance we have to pay is too high. The worst scrub beast will fetch not less than R100. A calf of just one and a half years will fetch not less than R120. One who aims at buying a bull to improve one's stock sets a very high standard. Someone I know bought a bull and he had been advanced the R55 subsidy. The bull cost him no less than R200. The same applies to sheep. No-one now wants to keep, say, 2000 sheep. The pastures in our areas are still poor and will not support 2 000 sheep. Further in our areas we haven't sufficient herdboys. Our people now consider education to be priority number one and we cannot now approach a kraal head and ask him to let us have a boy to look after our sheep or cattle. We appeal to the Government to assist us to the extent of 50-50. As regards sheep, as I have stated people keep about a hundred sheep with a ram in the worst line of scrub sheep. The progeny of the paternal scrub animal will appear strong in the early stages, but the stock owner gets into difficulty when the time for shearing comes. I have 20 sheep and my neighbour has 100. I have my sheep covered by a merino ram and after six years my neighbour will be in possession of 200 sheep but I will get more for the wool of my 30 sheep than he will get for his 200 sheep. People want to improve the quality of stock but the biggest stumbling block is the money. The people plead with the Government - and 1 am in company with them that the Govrnment should kindly support us to th extent I have moved in this motion. The trouble in my area is that there are very poor quality bulls and these bulls will cover my cows, whereas I myself spent a lot of money in obtaining a Jersey bull. Other people wish to follow my example and obtain quality bulls. I am also grateful that the hon Minister in charge of the relevant department is here and I hope my motion will be favourably considered. There is nothing complicated in this motion, Mr Chairman. I would say that all we require is simply a good bull and then a good calf, and the same with sheep. MR D. NDAMASE: I second the motion. MR N. JAFTA: Mr Chirman and hon members, the motion is a sound one. The difficulty I have experienced is that in an area you get a good quality but you find that scrub bulls are more plentiful and they dominate the area. I think an experiment should be conducted in one locality among people who will cooperate and sufficient good-quality bulls should be placed there in proportion to the stock there. In the area of that experiment improvement of stock will therefore be possible. The same applies to sheep. The difficulty there is that a man might desire and attempt to improve his stock but he is the only one in that area, whereas the pasturage is common to all. That is why these people who endeavour to do this will not suceed. I favour the motion which pleads with the the Government to assist in this matter. My fear is that there is hardly justification for the expenditure because of the reasons I have put before the House. I think that is all I can say, Mr Chairman. and M/AGRICULTURE : Mr Chairman hon members, while we sympathize with the views of the hon member for Xalanga in regard to this motion, we are aware of the fact that our greatest difficulty today is how to get the money. It is very difficult to obtain money today but the Government and the department are doing their best to assist the farmers to get good bulls for their herds. The subsidy offered by the department to the individual farmer is quite a substantial sum. This is in comparison with the large number of farmers who keep stock throughout the Transkei. The amount made available is made available to any farmer, no matter where he is. If we change our policy and adopt the 50-50 basis as requested by the hon member, the ground covered would be small and the benefit would be only for a few. I do not think that that is the intention of giving a subbsidy. I do believe, Mr Chairman, that any farmer worth his salt, if he wants to buy a bull could easily do so. I am not talking about people who want to be carried on the back of the Government. A farmer who wants to breed cattle must have capital and be 72.
are not relevant to the hardships of the people in the Transkei. Probably their position is so comfortable that they never even look through the window of their cars to see the misery that displays itself along the road in poor stock. It is no use telling the people to improve their stock when you don't help them to improve it. M/JUSTICE: What are you doing to help them? MR GUZANA: I will throw you out. You come in here like an unadmitted person and make a lot of noise. M/JUSTICE: What are you doing to improve them? That is the question. CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR GUZANA: We do not have any commitment to change. M/JUSTICE: Always this Government does not do this, that and the other. You are a member of parliament too. MR GUZANA: I am a member of parliament and I am telling this Government what to do. M/JUSTICE: You must do it too, because you have a duty too. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR GUZANA : If I must do it, hand over to me. (Laughter) Let me administer a sum of R1 million in regard to this request for a 50-50 subsidy. What satisfies you is the fact that we have a lot of scrub stock. The stock feeds on the grass and denudes the soil. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Order, please, hon members. MR GUZANA: All it does is to convert grass into manure and it does not feed anybody. Someone said that I haven't any stock. All I have to do when I want a sheep is to visit the home of the hon the Minister of Justice and he will give me a fatted sheep. (Laughter) After all, why buy the cow when you can get the milk free? Let us be sincere and honest, hon members. Let us have our priorities right. This is a reasonable request and when the Government is so financially committed on a 50-50 basis then it can insist that anybody who gets benefit must do certain things, to see that it is properly fed, to see it has shelter overnight - to insist on these things. Hon members, let us not fiddle whilst Rome burns. Think of the export potential if only our Government would assist our people to raise good stock, to diversify; and let us get our people out of this attitude of: I have some stock, what need is there to improve it? We can only get them out of that attitude by involving ourselves financially in the improvement of that stock, and our stock today which goes to the abattoir produces leather beef. (Laughter) After having shambokked this ox to pull the plough for over three or four years, we sell it at the market and we get it at the table. And yet we could easily be producing beef stock ready to be slaughtered, of two to two and a half years of age, and this would certainly be most palatable to the hon the Minister of Agriculture, regard being had to the fact that he lost his teeth some time ago. (Laughter) Just from a selfish motive, won't you support this motion? We support this motion strongly, Mr Chairman. MR B. P. VAPI: Mr Chairman and hon members , it is regrettable that today, on the eve of the departure of the Whites, there are people who are crying and lamenting that these people are leaving the country without putting things right for us. The Government of the Transkei should negotiate with the Republican Government The Republican Government should supply us with sufficient quality stock to improve our herds, and the stock should be delivered here for 26 October 1976. The Republican Government does not come to our assistance in this respect. It shows that the Whites here came only to suck our blood. Our Government will be deceiving themselves if they think that after independence they can still go hat in hand begging the Republican Government to supply these things. Mr Chairman, what worries us is the presence of these Greeks here who are scattered all over the Transkei. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN: Hon member, I will draw your attention to the motion moved by the hon member, Mr J. M. Sigwela. (Read motion) The mover is particularly directing the request to the Transkeian Government. I therefore request the hon member to be relevant, please. MR VAPI: Mr Chairman, I was coming to the point but I had to preface my remarks. The hon the Minister
of R55 when a bull may well cost R1 000, R1 500 or R2 000? What is R55 when your ram costs R400 or R500? You see, the attitude of the Department now is one of laiseer faire. It could not care what happens to our pastoral farming. Even the most prosperous farmers in the Republic have a Land Bank and have big subsidies given to them 1 by the Government even on a longterm basis. M/AGRICULTURE : They borrow the money and have to pay it back. MR ĞUZANA: Apart from subsidies they have very good loan facilities at a low rate of interest and it is no use shutting our eyes to this need when people will starve with all the pastoral potential in this country not activated by a Government which adopts a dog-inthe manger attitude over subsidies. The hon the Minister of Agriculture says this Government does not have the money. Yes, you will not have the money if you are going to spend R127 000 a year on diplomatic cosmetics. (Laughter) You are not going to have the money if you are going to spend over R200 000 in order to put up a ministerial palace. You will not have money if you are going to buy big cars to move up and down the Transkei - single passengers ensconced in a corner of the back seat. (Laughter) MR PAMLA: Stick to the motion. MR GUZANA: You are not going to have money if you are going to spend thousands of rands to celebrate independence only known to yourselves. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR GUZANA: You are not going to have money if you are going to have these government cars crashing into dongas and into walls as a result of carelessness. You will not have the money if cars travel overnight to carry unauthorized passengers from one place to anther. (Laughter) MR PAMLA: Can you prove that? CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR GUZANA: I want to emphasize that the money is there but it is not directed to the real needs of the people of the Transkei. This Government is not aware that pastoral farming is a first priority in the development of an asset already possessed by the people. The hon the Minister of Agriculture says if you are a farmer you should be able to afford the price of a good bull or a good ram. But what do we have? We do not have farmers but we have what are called peasant farmers. We want to emancipate them from peasant farming into proper farming, and if you take into account the economic level of these peasant farmers you should be ashamed to say to them : Go and buy yourselves a pedigree bull or ram - because this is impossible in their present financial straits. (Interjections) It is like telling a child who comes to you and asks for food to go and plough the land. (Laughter) This is, of course, characteristic of people who are more concerned with outward show and publicity and glory, rather than to be concerned with the things that matter to the people. If we can afford so much money to do a lot of window-dressing in the Transkei, why can we not afford subsidies on a 50% basis on something that is real, that is substantial, that is developing the people of the Transkei in their pastoral endeavours? The hon the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry is going to rise here at 1 p.m. to sit down to a meal where there will be mutton from a sheep that has been imported into the Transkei ... M/AGRICULTURE: And what about yours? MR GUZANA: .... and after he has had his sumptuous meal and feels at his ease he will tell a visitor that there is a big potential in pastoral farming in the Transkei. I want to know why we do not produce the mutton that we eat at lunch or at supper. Why, after 13 years of self-government, do you still see miserable sheep crawling and dragging themselves across the road? We should instead be seeing sprightly sheep crossing the road because they are the progeny of pedigree stock, but our Government could not care less about this matter. If you go to New Zealand you will find good stock; if you go to Queensland in Australia you will find good stock; if you go to the British Isles you will find good stock, where a milk cow is equivalent to 20 scrub cows in the Transkei. And then our hon Minister of Agriculture says to the people : You can go and do as you like. I am not going to assist you. This is the tragedy in the Transkei, that our Ministers 73.
quality, because the Government itself was interested in improving the quality. It was also essential that the Government should see to it that certain officers should visit those people who have bought such bulls in order to make certain that the bulls are properly looked after, because it would not serve any purpose to sell bulls to people if they fail to produce progeny of the desired standard. I say this because the mover of the motion said, amongst other things, that the bull which he bought for a high price did not produce as he desired owing to the fact that there were too many scrub bulls. The only thing that can be said about these scrub animals is that they destroy the grazing. That is why this subsidy has been granted . It is because of the rising prices. If the Government deems it fit not to make this subsidy, these pedigree bulls will not be bought by the people. If a baby loses its mother no-one can make that child suck from another woman's breasts. We will always remind people that these pedigree bulls are a necessity, but the prices have increased very much and therefore the Government should grant a higher subsidy. If a bull used to cost R25 and the Government paid R25, how is it that when the bull costs R100 then the Government states there is no money? What shall we do with this baby? This is the Government's baby. We regard pedigree bulls as something of great importance in the Transkei and we do hope the Government will be pleased with the increased produce resulting from these bulls. The people will think the Government has left them in the lurch if this request is not acceded to, because the whole herd will be spoilt by scrub animals and then the people will think the Government has not realised its aims. The Government should at all times do these things for the people. If a bull costs R200 and the Government pays R100 then the farmer will realise that the Government did not only give him a beast but also gave him the money .If the Government gives R25 then the farmer will think that he has been let down by the Government. As a result, this motion has been brought to this Chamber because all the farmers will have seen what the Government has intended to provide them with. In order that these bulls should be bought, people should get assistance from the Government assistance similar to what has been suggested by this motion. Mr Chairman, I support this motion. CHIEF K. M. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon members ... CHIEF G. M. BAMANDLA: Mr Chairman, on a point of order, it was pointed out that members of the same party cannot follow one another, so we feel members should follow as outlined. With your permission, Mr Chairman, I wish .... D/CHAIRMAN: Hon members, the duty of a Chairman is to call upon people to speak. It is the responsibility of the Whips to arrange the list of speakers. If nobody rises to speak from the Opposition side then I cannot stop a speaker from the Government side from speaking. I may point out that the hon member who is raising this point of order failed to turn up here yesterday to speak to a motion on which he had wanted to speak. He may now speak. CHIEF MABANDLA : Thank you , Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman and hon members, I am happy that I have come in at the appropriate time to discuss this motion. It is because of what brings this motion to the House that I now address this House. This idea of pedigree bulls and rams was brought about and encouraged during the time when the authorities were preaching rehabilitation. The practice was that areas which had accepted these measures should be supplied free of charge with these bulls and rams, so that these bulls might improve the scrub stock of that time. Why is it difficult now for the Government to supply these bulls and rams free of charge so that they should be supplied to various areas? I support this motion, but the Government should not butter the offered loaf on one side only so that the unbuttered side is not so good. Why has there been this change in the practice so that these pedigreed animals are supplied to one area and not to another? The bulls supplied then were the Afrikaner breed, which is not a milk breed which could improve the diet of a family. Why this change of supply now? Is it because the people have now agreed to the rehabilitation scheme? The idea of this rehabilitation was stock limitation , whereas we know that a man's stock is his bank. The basis of our existence is our
of Agriculture spoke in regrettable strains about the inadequacy of funds. Now we are at a loss ourselves as to where the hon Minister will obtain the necessary funds. In the Transkei we possess scrub stock, even to the extent of scrub pigs. Our scrub pigs will have to reach the age of five before they are marketed. Even when graded, they are graded as Grade 3 , which means the purchase price will be very low. The cattle we see here are not the same in quality as the cattle we see in the farms of the Free State, for example. If the Whites had come here with the idea of assisting the people, where is the evidence of that assistance? Is it not advisable that should the Transkeian Government be short of funds they try to obtain funds from wherever they can? Did our Ministers not see the Ivory Coast Minister when he came here to place the difficulties of his country before the Republican Government? Did we not hear about the money that was donated by the Republican Government to assist the people of the Ivory Coast? Why should the hon Minister lament the fact that we have no funds? Does he not know that the President of Malawi received substantial assistance from the Republican Government? In fact there is a new city there now as a result of the assistance given by the Republican Government. The hon Minister concerned should spare no endeavour to obtain the money required to meet this motion. In fact, he should do his best because this motion must succeed. The hon Minister should not just remain with us here. One Minister should go out and seek assistance, explaining our difficulties outside our country. They must not just remain here enjoying good times, eating butter. (Laughter) The hon the Minister of Agriculture should see eye to eye with us in approaching the Republican Government that we should get assistance in this vital matter of pastoral farming. The hon Minister must not take this lightly, because we realise that the Minister takes a serious view of this because once this matter was discussed the hon Minister stood up himself and explained the question of no funds. One who has no money should go out begging, so please, Mr Minister, assist the people in this respect. I want to advise him that if he gets bulls he should go and beg from the Prime Minister of the Republic, and I say those cattle should be kept in the areas of Port St John's and Lusikisiki. It is not advisable that these good quality bulls be kept at places where the pasture is not good. I want to impress this on the hon Minister, that certain select herds be kept somewhere to produce good stock. The hon Minister points out it is not his motion, but I say that he must take a serious view and he should do something about it. I suggest that an area be reserved in the Port St John's area and the pedigree stock should be kept there. I advise against places like Umtata because the pasture is not good here. I request the hon Minister to do something to assist the people who buy good stock in the labour centres. Our people in the labour centres buy cattle as cheaply as R5 a head, and those cattle are just good standard cattle. When they want to send these goodquality cattle home they cannot get the necessary permit. These people buy cattle in the labour centres and they have to keep the cattle there. They cannot send these cattle home as they desire. I suggest that a general camp be established here where the cattle sent from the labour centres can be kept until certain areas are opened, then the cattle can be sent to those areas. If the Government will comply with my suggestion then they will assist us in more or less meeting this request for a 50-50 subsidy. The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on an Increase in Subsidy for the Purchase of Stud Stock was resumed. ACTG CHIEF S. C. DALASILE: Mr Chairman and hon members , I wish to make a few remarks in connexion with this most important motion. All farmers are greatly interested in this matter and because of the high price of quality stock it was decided to move this motion. The Government considered that the stock owned by the people was not up to their standards and they then decided to introduce pedigree bulls in order that the quality of produce should be improved in regard to milk, beef, mutton and wool. It should not be incumbent upon the farmers only to produce better
74.
and rams were supplied free? Is it because you are now heading for independence that this has been done away with? I am sorry the hon the Minister of Justice has come in at this late stage. I do not even accept the idea of the 50-50 basis. My idea is that these bulls and rams should be supplied free of charge. Mr Chairman, I hope the hon members have been listening and have heard. Sometimes there is this idea of people or things accepted as male. whereas they are actually female. It is wrong that the white man has oppressed the black man. M/JUSTICE: And you want to remain in the Republic. CHIEF MABANDLA: We have been hamering that this country is ours. We have learnt that the hon Ministers themselves have been supplied with pedigreed bulls and rams, and even stallions are supplied to big people. All that is merely a bribe towards acceptance of this policy. (Interjections) Are you really surprised when he said: Where is the horse? (Laughter) No matter what happens, Mr Chairman, I say you should revert to the old system when you were encouraging people to accept rehabilitation and you supplied them with stallions, bulls and rams free of charge. CHIEF K. M. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon members, firstly I want to correct the hon member who was holding the floor. He stated that people used to be supplied with bulls free of charge. I want to tell this hon member that the Agricultural Department never gave people bulls free of charge, but they were subsidized. In all its attempts the department tried to improve the quality of stock in the Transkei. We are requesting the department to subsidize stock on a 50-50 basis. There is no doubt that the people of the Transkei do not all have money. Some who desire to improve their stock by buying pedigree bulls haven't the necessary money. Sometimes it happens that they have some money but the price of the bull is too high, because when a bull costs R100 the Government pays only R25. That is why we are requesting the Government raise the basis of this subsidy to 50-50 so that there should be many people are put in a position to be able to buy bulls. The Government introduced a system known as artificial insemination, where a bull from overseas was brought to cover a cow in this country. Even that scheme was not successful because it required a scientific method supervised by veterinary officers, and that involved a lot of money. The department knows there is need for the improvement of stock in the Transkei. After the department perseived the necessity, demonstrators were sent out to show people how to improve their stock. There is money enough to develop this country. The Republican Government is willing to assist the Transkei to develop. It is for that reason that we appeal to the department to give this assistance, because if one or two people are able to purchase this pedigree stock that would be similar to a drop in the ocean. There is an hon member who said that these scrub bulls will have greater power than the pedigree stock. In some areas bulls are kept apart in their own camps in order to give them rest, so that at certain intervals these bulls may be let out to cover the cows. The cows and scrub animals are kept separately, giving a chance to the pedigree bulls. We should ask the department to subsidize all types of pedigree bulls, whether they be Brown Swiss, Shorthon, Jersey or Friesland, in order that they should be pedigree stock and they should be subsidized on a 50-50 basis. All these kinds of bulls are there to improve our stock. With those few words, Mr Chairman, I support the motion. D/CHAIRMAN: Hon members, I am sure you will agree with me that this motion has been sufficiently canvassed. I shall now call upon the mover to summarize. MR J. M. SIGWELA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I have a good impression of the discussions here when we appealed to the Government to assist us in acquiring these pedigree bulls and rams. We place this matter in the hands of the Transkeian Government. I have a clear picture of an undernourished child suffering from Kwashiorkor. The doctors say it is a shortage of milk that brings about that disease. We should now be having abundant milk if we sad good milk breeds. With such cattle we would regulate calving. I have a clear picture of children with distended bellies
stock, irrespective of the quality of that stock. Now, the hon the Leader of the Opposition mentioned the big black cars and there is no question of how they move about because they are of good quality. The hon the Minister of Agriculture has pointed out the shortage of funds, whereas in the past these bulls were supplied to us. There free bulls and free rams to improve the quality of the beef and the quality of the wool. You are such a large number on the Government side that I wonder what the discussions in your caucus are about, because you cannot even support these motions. Sometimes if a member has died you will find that other members do not even know him. (Interjections) In fact, you are sitting there and you hardly know one another, yet at voting time you are at one. The question of stock is a national matter to which a chief should pay special attention, because a chief is a leader. Where a chief happens to spend the night we all know what honour is accorded him by way of slaughtering a beast. It is regrettable that an hon Minister, being royal himself, should not encourage the improvement of our stock. I shall refer now to cattle, sheep, poultry and everything that a kraal owner keeps. If we are not in agreement with the hon Minister on this question because he says there is no money, then what comes next? I will give an ejample and I will quote a chief. Chiefs are respected people in the community. Now the chiefs are on the way to killing the nation. A chief was installed because of his qualities of bravery and leadership. The names of people did not count. It is important that stock be improved by the introduction of quality bulls and rams. Custom provides that where a relative or a person of position arrives at a kraal something must be slaughtered I am referring to you, because most of the Government members are chiefs. Those chiefs so terrorize their people and therefore they assist them in getting to this House. It must be arranged that these bulls and rams must be introduced. CHEF G. B. SIYABALALA: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, it would appear that the hon member for Tsolo is going to waste a lot of time. I am asking that he should be directed to the motion. CHIEF MABANDLA: I am happy that the hon member is a chief and that he addresses the House in this way. If you read history you will remember that Hitler was not interested in under-developed people. He wanted able-bodied men in his regiments. Laughter) I am not worrying myself about physically underdeveloped people. Mr Chairman, the hon members should take this subject seriously and realise how important it is. One year artificial insemination was mentioned and we accepted the idea of that because we felt it was a method of introducing the desired standard of stock. What is the position today? We agreed to it, but what did the Government do? We were all agreed with that in this House but the Government did nothing and that is why we also say your parliament is a dummy institution. You take dictation from the white man in the Republic. You cannot just act on your own. You sometimes learn that the hon Ministers have gone to Pretoria and you never find out what they have gone there for. It was agreed here that that artificial insemination was acceptable. The hon inisters get there but they never come back to us and report the result of motions we have submitted. How can we have confidence in people who bring no results from motions passed in this House? Beware of your desire for independence, because you don't know what the outcome will be. We pass motions about stallions, buuls and rams, but nothing results. I will tell you something about a leader. A leader is a man of integrity who will stick to the point. A nation cannot be led by a certain type of inferior being. D/CHAIRMAN : Will the hon member please stick to the motion. There is too much diversion in your speech. CHIEF MABANDLA: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I shall carry on and hammer certain facts home. You will find that if a bull or a ram is not up to standard, that also applies to a human being. Its progeny will be something you cannot be proud of. Was the introduction of free bulls and rams a bribe to the people to accept rehabilitation measure? I shall refer myself to this motion now. I do not think the people should pay anything for these animals. They should be supplied free. Where were the funds obtained when these bulls 75.
and thin legs. When we ask the doctors why the physique of the child is so poor they say it is because there are deficiencies in the child's diet. They say these children should drink sufficient milk. We now ask the Government to help us increase this milk supply by subsidizing the purchase of these pedigree bulls. I say it is not from the Department of Agriculture in particular that we are appealing for these funds, but from the Government as a whole. The Department of Agriculture says there is overstocking in the Transkei. If the authorities sat down to consider this matter they would find there are too many scrub animals with proportionate wastage of pasture. One has 50 head of cattle and during the winter he loses so many that he Question put and motion carried unanimously. is left with only 15. It is overstocking that is responsible for that and we should mark that we have no pedigree animals. Should the Government enable us to have pedigree herds, scrub cattle will be eliminiated immediately. Overstocking will be a thing of yesterday, because all scrub cattle will be disposed of. The Government will never again say anything about limitation of stock. The stock that we shall then have will be stock of a higher value than we have today. I attended a stock sale recently and the scrub cattle there fetched as much as R120. Cattle of good breed fetched about R300 at that sale. The introduction of good breeds will improve stock prices because if a man sells a scrub beast it does not fetch enough to supply the needs of the family. If a man sells a good beast it might fetch enough to buy him a piece of land. If the Government would accede to our request I feel that the pasturage would be sufficient because the numbers will be reduced. Nobody wants to rear many cattle which are of no use to him. Now, if the quality of the stock is improved then the pasturage can be reduced and that will give room for expansion in our forestry schemes. Those forestry schemes in turn will contribute towards the revenue of the Transkei. I thank hon members for the support they have accorded this motion. Question put and motion carried unanimously. DRIVERS' LICENCES : DEVELOPMENT ASSISTANTS
to drive and he has to pay this large amount. He lives in an urban area and has to pay for his lodging, so it means he has nothing left to live on. Sometimes five or six of them are sent to an area, and it would be difficult even if it was one man. How much more so when there are six of them! How can they all learn to drive at the same time? Even if they were given 24 months, how will they learn to drive? Clearly, six development assistants cannot be taught in one day. It means one would be taken and the others would learn nothing about driving, although they are on probation and have to meet this dealine. It is a sorrowful plight for these young men. I have seen this happen in my area where these students will live there for a long time and in the end they don't learn to drive. I wish other hon members would come to my assistance in this matter. When this probation period has been completed without this youngster knowing how to drive he is dismissed. MR M. E. DYARVANE : I second the motion. The debate was adjourned. M /JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, in view of the fact that the hon members only received their salaries and sessional allowances on 31 March and therefore some of them need to buy certain things in order to be well received at home, and in order to give them a little extra time I move that this House adjourn until Monday morning. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 5 April 1976.
MONDAY, 5 APRIL 1976 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS CHAIRMAN: Hon members, the hon the Minister of the Interior wishes to make an announcement. M/INTERIOR: Mr Chairman and hon members, this is in connection with a motion which was discussed in the House during my absence, in regard to the purchase of mission farmers, I believe in the Umzimkulu district. I wish to inform hon members that my department is in the early stages of negotiation in connection with the purchase of various mission stations or farms, not only in Umzimkulu but throughout the Transkei. I may add that the success of the negotiations will depend on various factors, including the availability of funds, and that if the farms are not purchased within 1976 it will not mean that the department is ignoring the issue. CHAIRMAN: Hon members, I think we shall have to skip Item 8 on the order paper - the committee stage of the Bantu Administration Amendment Bill, as a result of the absence of the hon the Minister of Justice.
MR J. M. SIGWELA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should consider the advisability of increasing the period given to development assistants to have drivers' licences before being employed on permanent basis from twelve months to twenty-four months." I will not be lengthy, Mr Chairman, because others can speak after I have spoken. I will only lead the discussion. The procedure as far as the Agricultural Department is concerned in connection with these development assistants is that they are employed on probation and sent to various places. Sometimes a number of them are sent to those places, not just a few. They are put on probation for a certain period usually twelve months but I was surprised to receive a letter after I had drawn up this motion stating that the period would be increased. Nevertheless, I feel I should carry on with this motion. It is stated that they will be on probation for a period of 18 months. When these assistants are taken on they know nothing about driving and it becomes compulsory that they should have drivers' licences and they are given this period which I have already mentioned. What surprises me is that no mention has been made of the name of the person who will teach them to drive. It is only stated that they should go in XG cars used by employees of the Government. No mention is made of any time or place when an XG car will be used for purposes of teaching these learners. You will find that these poor young men will even go out of their way to consult outsiders to teach them how to drive. When an assistant finds someone to teach him he is required by that person to pay R90 a month, and yet the poor fellow is only getting R50 a month. You will find these young men, not knowing exactly what to do at times, accompanying a supervisor who has no time to teach him how to drive and the brief period passes before this youngster has been able to do anything. For that reason he usually goes to someone else to teach him
DRIVERS' LICENCES : DEVELOPMENT ASSISTANTS The debate was resumed. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I am not aware of the basis of this motion. One would have thought that before employment development assistants had to produce a driver's licence if their job required them to have such a licence. Alternatively, the department concerned ought to provide training facilities to enable these people to acquire their licences within a short time after employment. It would appear that twelve months is a long period if there is a concerted effort to train these people as drivers. The mover of this motion indicated that the training is somewhat haphazard and lackadaisical; that development assistants have to take a chance whenever it presents itself in order to acquire a licence. One would have thought that the department concerned would have arranged for these people to go into a course of training for a period of two months, during which they would be under an instructor to enable them to acquire their licences expeditiously. Their superior officers on whom they depend for the loan of a car to learn to drive are not the best instructors in this connection. Furthermore, it is my view that such training may very well result in exceeding wear and tear on the
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vehicles used haphazardly in this connection. This would result in high repair costs and an unnecessary wastage of vehicles which are used by the department concerned. One would have liked the hon Minister who is affected by this motion to give us some clarity on the programme of training for development assistants to enable them to obtain driver's licences. A period of 24 months is temptation for the development assistants to use cars without a licence, under the impression that he is an old driver and has been driving for the last 20 months. I know the mover of this motion is concerned over the fact that these people lose their employment at the end of twelve months if they have not got a driver's licence, but I do feel that they lose their jobs primarily because the department to which they are attached does not make a concerted effort to help them get their drivers' licences. Normally the leaner licence is valid for about three months or more and this learner's licence is usually issued after a person has been issued with a competence certificate, so that in four months a non-driver should be able to obtain his driver's licence without any difficulty whatsoever if he receives proper instruction. Under the present circumstances the learner driver has to buy a learner's licence every so often just because the department to which he is attached is not committed enough to help him get his licence within the prescribed time. One would not mind if the department concerned finianced him to get his licence, but I am quite sure these people have to bear the burden of renewed learner's licences ad infinitum because the department which seeks to use his skill is not prepared to help him acquire that skill. Furthermore, these people are on duty throughout the day and when a car is issued for a particular trip no other trips are accommodated along that route to help the leaner driver acquire driving skill. Were the period to be extended, as requested by the mover of the motion, this would mean that cars would have to be issued out specifically on Saturdays to enable these people to train as drivers. If the department is concerned that these people should acquire driving skill, it is my opinion that during a five-day week certain periods should be set aside during the week to assist these men. I am sure the hon the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry can throw some light on this matter. We do not oppose the motion but we would like to have the relevant facts put before us, because there is the danger of extending the period to 24 months and thus encouraging an indifferent attitude on the part of the development assistants with regard to obtaining licences. Thank you, Mr Chairman. M/AGRICULTURE : Mr Chairman and hon members, regarding this motion by the hon member for Xalanga that the period for development assistants to learn driving should be extended from twelve months to 24 months, the department is doing everything to assist development assistants to acquire these licences. The time limit of twelve months is considered quite sufficient to learn driving. When these men apply for jobs as development assistants they are told that it is essential that they have drivers' licences within a period of twelve months and they are given every assistance in that even the government vehicles are available when there is opportunity to do so. Unfortunately, some of these young men don't appear to be keen enough to learn to drive and even those who sometimes do learn to drive fail continuously. MR K. M. GUZANĂ: Does the traffic section of the Department of Roads and Works assist in training these men? M/AGRICULTURE : I don't know, but men who come to apply as traffic officers do already hold licences. MR GUZANA: No, I mean does the traffic section of the Roads and Works Department assist these development assistants in training to acquire licences? M/AGRICULTURE: No, I don't know. Mr Chairman, it must be remembered by this House that these vehicles belonging to the Government are very valuable and cannot be lent indiscriminately to anyone to learn to drive. When a learner driver shows interest we generally instruct the senior officers to do all in their power to assist these men. If a learner driver has not acquired his licence within the specified period we generally extend the time by six months or even up to 24 months. I therefore do not see any need for this motion, because we do extend the time.
MR GUZANA: But you exercise that as a discretionary power rather than a mandate to extend to 24 months. M/AGRICULTURE: Well, it could be that, but any keen learner driver would use that to advantage. If we allowed a period of 24 months I am pretty certain we would have no vehicles in the department efficient enough to be used in development work and we would have to come back to this House to ask for money to buy new vehicles. They would probably last about three years and then we would have to come along again. However, I am not standing in the way of the House in whatever they decide. If they so feel that the time should be extended it is up to the House, but we consider that twelve months is quite sufficient for a person who is keen to learn to drive, particularly when allowance is made for the time to be extended. MR N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I wish to particpate in the discussion on this motion. I appreciate the fact that these assistants are allowed twelve months and the motion suggests an extension of the period to 24 months. To my mind it seems that the fault lies with the department concerned in not enabling these people to obtain their licences within twelve months. Learning to drive a car should not take as long as twelve months. I think that is too long a period and if there were instructors to assist these people then six months would be long enough. We feel there should be a special instructor appointed to teach these young men and the time necessary then would be quite a long time. We are all drivers here and I know that anybody who is keen to learn will learn in only a fortnight, but there must be someone to coach them properly. I appreciate the reason for the motion but I feel the time suggested is too long. The department should provide instructors to coach these people properly. I think that is all I can say. MR B. P. VAPI: Mr Chairman and hon members, the hon Minister concerned contributed notably to this motion. It is clear that the department is doing its best, but I feel I should support the motion moved by a friend of mine. (Laughter) These development assistants are at the mercy of their senior officers whom they find already in the department. Now they have to remain there struggling for twelve months to learn to drive and the senior officer concerned is not interested in assisting them. The department's difficulty is that their senior officers are more interested in drink than in the work entrusted to them. I think the people concerned should interest themselves in this question so that we can eliminate some of the malpractices of these people. A man is employed there and he is told by his senior officer that he should acquire this driving skill. Driving a car is not like riding a bicycle. One learns with difficulty if on has a lesson now and again at intervals of two weeks, because by the time the man touches a car again he has forgotton what was taught. In order that the time limit should be maintained these people should receive daily instruction in driving. If they receive daily instruction as I suggest, they will not take as long as twelve months. A development assistant who has been recently employed cannot report his immediate senior, no matter how illtreated he may be, because he has not the right to write letters via. MR K. M. GUZANA: Via what? MR VAPI: This young man is not sure where he stands as far as his employment is concerned. It will be difficult for this new man to write letters direct to the authorities because those letters might prejudice his chances. The difficulty is not with these youngsters who have just been employed, but with their immediate seniors. These senior officers are a general difficulty. They are not impossible only with their juniors but they are impossible to the general public. I want to make this request to the department but I say that all departments suffer from the same trouble. It is possible that I meet a government official driving a car whilst under the influence of liquor. I ask him why he is driving this car because I am sure he has eaten something not above "marewu". It is difficult for me, even if I wish to assist, to report this matter to the department concerned so that the necessary steps be taken. A report sometimes reaches a department that a certain officer misbehaved himself and the department sends a senior to hold an inquiry. The senior concerned finds on his arrival at the scene of the inquiry that there is a bottle 77.
They have to involve themselves in this expense now, and then they get into the dangerous practice of buying licences. One buys a licence, one drives a government vehicle and you are sure this youngster is proficient because he holds a licence, but all he does is to damage the government vehicle. Let us say one has not actually bought a driver's licence, but he has learnt to drive under his senior officer because he is on good terms with his senior. The senior recommends him until the youngster gets a licence. Don't you think, Sir, that the question of wear and tear on these vehicles will eventually become an expense to your department? These youngsters pay for their licences and they have to saddle themselves with this expense although their wages are meagre, as the department knows, and it is not for them to pay for driving instruction. I move accordingly, Mr Chairman , and I hope the hon Minister will consider this matter because we are drawing attention to the troubles that lie ahead in employing these youngsters in the department. Consider that these are trained youngsters and it is only this difficulty of the driver's licence which lies ahead. They have joined the department and the department has accepted them, but the difficulty is that while they are already in employment they have to learn to drive. They do not receive the least assistance, except that they just go about with their senior officers. We appeal to you to interest your department in this matter. When this officer has to go, say, to Ncora he has no interest in teaching a young man to drive. For many years I have been riding in cars but I cannot drive a car. I appeal to you to interest the department in this connection because these are your friends now. We appeal to you to do your utmost to assist these youngsters. Question put and motion carried unanimously. MR E. M. DEKEDA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Department of Roads and Works be requested, as a matter of urgency, to have Road No 1 , i.e. from Tsomo to Ndabakazi , tarred as well as the road from Butterworth to Qolora Mouth." Mr Chairman, this motion speaks about the road which passes Gcingca Halt on the main road from Queenstown to Umtata. It runs also through Tsomo and Nqamakwe village to Ndabakazi. It is called Road No 1. All the traffic to the north runs not via Amabele and Kei Road to Butterworth, but through Cofimvaba, Tsomo, Nqamakwe to reach Butterworth. I put Butterworth here as the starting point and the finishing point because it has become the Johannesburg of the Transkei. The industries in Butterworth have outstripped the industries in the Transkei generally. Many people have had to be employed in large batches to cope with the industries in Butterworth. Many houses have had to be built overnight. These people who have come to Butterworth to work must be fed . We have in St Mark's district an irrigation scheme where mealies are grown and these vegetables are not marketed by the farmers. Those people who have been working in the north will know that we have a lot of material which is manufactured for the building of big houses. I am trying to explain why we request the Transkeian Government to tar this road from Tsomo to Ndabakazi and then to Butterworth. Before any road can be tarred by the Government there must be at least an average of 450 vehicles using that road per month. Now, these are the numbers I have obtained from the Traffic Department of the Transkei. In January 1963 there were 380 vehicles which used this road. In January 1971 460 vehicles used this road. Now, hon members, in January 1973 there were 1 373 vehicles which used that road; in January 1974, 1451 vehicles; in January 1975, 1 744. Mr Chairman, I may add that even such vehicles as the government buses have now increased a great deal on this road. In 1963 there were four buses daily between Butterworth and Ndabakazi and in 1975 there were no less than ten government buses to and from Ndabakazi. MR K. M. GUZANA: Aren't the Jabulani tank vehicles doing the havoc? MR DEKEDA: Apparently we have the road equip ment unit in this area used in maintain Road No 1 and because of that the other outlying roads from Butterworth, Nqamakwe and Tsomo have been deprived of maintenance . These roads have been reduced to nothing but tracks which are damaged after torrential rains and
of Scotch waiting for him and a fowl prepared in the most attractive way. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN: Hon member, the motion is in connection with development assistants acquiring drivers' licences within 24 months. Please be relevant. MR VAPI: Mr Chairman, I was pointing out the reasons why such motions are forthcoming. This probationer sometimes finds at the end of eight months that he has only had three driving lessons, and he knows that at the end of twelve months he will lose his employment. Now he has to use his brains because he finds his employment is in danger, so he goes to a driving school. He gets to the driving school and they receive him gladly. He sees also that the twelve months is expiring and he has liquor ready in his possession. He gets to the driving school where he approaches the principal as I have explained, and through his persuation he gets a licence without being tested. (Interjections) The Transkei is in line with those States which have already acquired their independence, but they are still under training and so the Transkei is equal to those. Mr Chairman, let us put it this way: I appeal to all departments to encourage their officers to take their work seriously because the heads are here now and they are certain that work is being carried on conscientiously outside. I support this motion because it gives a chance to the senior officer to interest himself in these people. Now the department will have to query the question of a man taking 24 months before he can learn to drive. Mr Chairman, with those few words I support the motion. MR S. A. XOBOLOLO : Mr Chairman and hon members, as far as this motion is concerned I will speak very briefly. The hon the Minister of Agriculture has explained the chief points concerning this motion and he touched on the question of expense and the wear and tear on the vehicles which would be used for this purpose. The period of twelve months, which is said to be the period necessary for these people to be trained, is quite suitable. The hon Minister has pointed out that some of these youngsters show very little interest, so an extension of time will make that even worse. They can only be trained in vehicles. There is no other way. The last speaker has pointed out that a great deal of this is due to the carelessness of senior officers and he goes on to say that this carelessness is also due to excessive use of intoxicating liquor. He also suggests that that drunkenness should be extended to 24 months. (Interjections) If the hon member was basing his argument on the time limit and pointing out that liquor has a good deal to do with delaying this matter then he should not have pleaded for an extension of time. The motion is a sound one but I feel these people should be given twelve months and supplied with instructors who will coach them; also , vehicles should be provided for training. I pointed out that a factor which is responsible for this delay is drunkenness, but let us not make drunkenness an excuse for this delay. CHAIRMAN: Hon members, I am of the opinion that this motion has been thoroughly canvassed and I shall call upon the mover to respond. MR J. M. SIGWELA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I listened most carefully to the hon the Minister of Agriculture and as he was contributing to the discussion I found more difficulties than I had at first. Yes, the period of twelve months is sufficient for people to learn to drive, but we now apply for the extension to 24 months because we feel that these trainees are not being sufficiently cared for. These development assistants are sometimes employed in groups of five, so how will they get a chance to learn to drive? These senior officers have no interest at all in giving instruction to these young men and often they are not proficient drivers themselves. I wish the hon Minister would listen to me. Please allow him to listen to my winding up. The difficulty is that these youngsters have no-one to coach them and probably six months would be sufficient if they had someone to teach them. I do not believe that these youngsters are not keen enough, but because they are so keen they go and employ private instructors at exorbitant cost, spending their entire wage on paying the instructor. This youngster is doing his utmost to obtain this driver's licence. I know of many youngsters who have tried hard to obtain these licences but they were unable to because of the indifference of their senior officers. 78 .
they have become ploughed lands. I have watched the people working on this road and Road No 1 is gravelled almost every two weeks. Mr Chairman, that is why we have come to this House to request the Department of Roads and Works to have this road tarred. Mr Chairman, I shall come to the second part of this motion now. All those people who have gone through Butterworth have noticed the number of new houses which have been built in Butterworth for Blacks and Whites. MR GUZANA: Including the graintank houses. MR DEKEDA : This has caused the people who live in Butterworth to visit Qolora Mouth frequently as it is only a few miles away. They go there to fish and to bathe on clear days. We request this Government to tar Road No 48 from Butterworth to Kentani and Road 48.1 from Kentani to Qolora Mouth. We believe and we believe strongly that we could easily have Qolora Mouth as a holiday resort. We also know that climatically that area is subtropical. With a good road the hon the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry would have encouraged the farmers there to grow a lot of fruit to feed of the Transkei. We see every day some big lorries and vans from the Ciskei carrying fruit and vegetables to feed the people of Butterworth. The place we are now talking about is very close to East London and the climate is almost identical. We are only requesting our Government to have a good road to that area so that the growing of fruit and vegetables could be developed in that area. If one has been able to visit this area round Kentani you will find it is very thickly wooded. This would also encourage tourism and people who go there could look at the animals. Mr Chairman, I am requesting the House to approve this motion. M/EDUCATION : I second , Mr Chairman. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, were we to use the figures supplied by the hon member to justify the tarring of the road between Tsomo and Ndabakazi , and between Butterworth and Qolora, we would justify the tarring of every road in the Transkei. For instance, the hon the Paramount Chief of Qaukeni could very well insist on the road to Lambasi being macadamized. The same argument could be used to justify the tarring of the road between Viedgesville and Coffee Bay, one other reason being that the Leader of the Opposition uses that road almost daily. (Laughter) MR H. PAMLA: We won't do it just for that. MR GUZANA: We could easily argue that the animal inhabitants of Dwessa Forest require a tarred road leading to them, rather than Qolora Mouth. The Tina Falls could command first place for a macadamized road because of their attraction for tourists. So we would go on and on justifying this claim to no end. GOVT MEMBER : First come, first served. MR GUZANA: Somebody stated "First come, first served", but the Good Lord told you that the first shall be last and last first. (Laughter) Whilst the hon member has conducted some investigation in order to justify his plea he has assiduously and deliberately avoided the most important statistics relating to the rands and cents where a road has to be tarred. In other words, he wants us to approve the construction of a macadamized road for us to find ourselves bogged down by the financial commitment which flows from such an undertaking. It is amazing how some hon members of the House will champion anything and everything that is going to serve their own personal interest. The hon member for Nqamakwe lives more in Butterworth than in Nqamakwe, so that he wants to travel easily between Nqamakwe and Butterworth even during the night. (Laughter) If there is anything which should receive priority in this . House it is the general state of roads throughout the Transkei. How can we commit ourselves to spending millions of rands on one particular road when all the others have degenerated into sledge tracks and car traps. At the present moment the public is unable to get to very important functions, unable to get to their homes for funerals, unable to move from one place to another because the roads are impassable and impossible. M/ROADS: And the cause? MR GUZANA: The hon the Minister of Roads wants to blame the weather for the condition of these roads, but there are other roads which have stood up to the weather and are still being used by cars. The rapid deterioration of the roads because of the heavy rains is largely due to the fact that the construction of
the roads was a careless piece of work done to no purpose. M/ROADS: Where? In the Transkei? MR GUZANA: In the Transkei. M/ROADS: But they are the same all over the country. MR GUZANA: Why should I get stuck, for instance when I want to get to my house in Ncambedlana? MR H. PAMLA: That is the Umtata municipality. MR GUZANA: Why did the hon Ministers have to go via Ncambedlana to get to the ministerial location? (Laughter) Why is it impossible for a car to move along the Ncambele road just four miles out of town without being bogged down in four areas of quagmire? (Interjections) The reason is simple. This Government has committed itself to a programme of road construction by scraping on to the road the soil on the embakments on either side of the road. M/AGRICULTURE: Because the gravel runs to either side of the road. MR GUZANA: And with the first rainfall you have quagmires and bogs along the roads. The hon member for Nqamakwe wants the road to Butterworth to be macadamized to the neglect of all other roads. He informed this House that a lot of vegetables are grown up north. Where north, I don't know. (Laughter) But is the Qamata irrigation area the only area which grows vegetables? Is it not a fact that if ever there was a faulty investment it was when money was spent to construct that irrigation scheme? (Interjections) So the position in vegetable gardens in Qamata area is no justification for macadamizing this road. The people around Butterworth and those who are on farms around Butterworth could very well grow their own vegetables. It is surprising also that because there is a seaside resort area at Qolora Mouth there should be a macadamized road leading to Qolora Mouth from Butterworth. To my mind the whole thought behind this motion betrays a lack of understanding of the priorities of the situation. At the present moment the National Roads Council is reconstructing the road from the Kei Bridge to Umzimkulu in order to carry thousands and thousands of vehicles as against the hundreds of vehicles from Gcingca Halt to Butterworth, and the traffic between Queenstown and Umtata has justified the tarring of the road linking these two towns where thoousands of vehicles are running as against hundreds. Then again, the road from Umtata to Port St John's, apart from the fact that it partially serves the hon the Paramount Chief of Nyandeni and the Paramount Chief of Qaukeni, is an important route leading to the coast. (Interjections) The road from Pakade to Port Shepstone is an important artery road leading from inland to the coast and to Natal. Now, you compare the importance of these roads to which I have referred for strategic purposes and commercial purposes with the road from Gcingca to Butterworth. The relevance of this motion disappears when we compare the importance of this small short route with the importance of the other arteries of communication which should receive priority attention. Whilst you may be very elated over the fact that you describe Butterworth as the "Johannesburg of the Transkei” , let us point out to you that development is towards the East and that the progress of placing industries will be towards the east of the Transkei rather than be entirely concentrated in Butterworth. So the roads leading to the potential growth points of the east deserve priority over this personal road from Tsomo to Ndabakazi. This Government has committed itself to having an army. If you seek that this army should be adequately mobile over the whole Transkei then you need good roads, not from Tsomo and Ndabakazi, but throughout the whole of the Transkei. Whilst you may be happy to go to Qolora Mouth and enjoy a swim there with whoever accompanies you (Laughter) we are concerned with the strategic defence of the Transkei along the eastern half of this area. MR E. M. DEKEDA : But Qolora is in the east of the Transkei. Don't you know your geography? MR GUZANA: Fancy the hon member telling me I don't know geography when I taught him at school. (Laughter) Whatever qualifications he has he owes to me. It is my submission that we should , in looking at this motion, relate it to communication priorities of the Transkei. One of my concerns is over the fact that potentially productive areas of the Transkei do not
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ally therefore rejects this motion. Mr Chairman, this is a very clear motion and I know we will agree to it unanimously, because it is so important. There is no need to be lengthy over this matter because it is quite clear. We like our country and we want everyone to appreciate it and to appreciate the administration of the country so that it will not be said that the black people can do nothing for themselves. I would be very happy if this department would get on with this work tomorrow morning. In Fingoland it is the road that is most frequently used. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I will request this House to allow me to speak sitting down. Mr Chairman, I stand up to say that this motion is important. That is what the Democratic Party says. I mean the Democratic Party which is known by everyone in the world. It will be remembered that during the year 1969 I made mention of various roads. As a resident of Engcobo I know this particular road. How pleased I shall be, seeing I am a cripple, when that Ndabakazi road has been tarred. It means I shall be able to walk along that road very easily. In that section of the country I am related to many people. Even if I go to Ndabakazi , Tsomo or Cofimvaba I have relatives there. I am sorry I do not see the hon the Minister of Roads present. If the hon Minister could see that road in question he would feel like closing his eyes rather than to see how corrugated it is. As the eyes and the mouth of those people whom we come to represent here it is therefore necessary, and we hope to bring the attention of the government to the necessity for it. I am happy now to see the hon the Minister of Roads here. Speak of the angels and they are sure to appear. (Laughter) Sir, we would honestly be thankful if that road from Ndabakazi , Tsomo and Cofimvaba should be tarred. I also support what was said by the last speaker when he said would be pleased if this road should receive attention even as early as tomorrow. In fact, I hope you understand me, hon Minister, when I say we should know how our taxes have been utilized and therefore we would be happy to know that we are benefitting from our taxes because the aim of taxation is to make the life of the taxpayer less irksome. The tarring of this road would minimize the number of accidents which occur on these roads. You think this is something known only to you. It is of great importance that we should know how our people are treated as far as their roads and transport are concerned, because of account of these vehicles we experience a number of accidents. My son says I am already broken; my leg is already broken. Does it mean now that if one of my legs is crippled the second one must be crippled too? Must I draw the inference that he who has fallen will need no longer fear to fall? I am pleased this motion has been introduced to this House, and I would have expected such a motion to come from such a member. L. L. Mgudlwa signing off. (Laughter) CHIEF W. G. NKWENKWEZI : Mr Chairman and hon members, I am pleased to speak after the last speaker. He is supporting the motion but as he has no party to which he belongs I will take him as not supporting the motion. This is an important motion because it refers to a road which is very well used. The importance of this road is that it is a link between the roads from the Ciskei and other places inside the Transkei. A number of heavy vehicles such as government buses and transport lorries from Stuttkor use this road. Some of them which start at Cala and Cofimvaba and go to East London are bound for the Transvaal and Free State transporting goods for the factories up there I will include the Jabulani tankers carrying Jabulani from Butterworth to various places and using this Ndabakazi road. The number of vehicles using this road has been furnished and I submit that number is sufficient to warrant this road being tarred . On these branch roads certain people are placed to count the number of cars which use them. There is some knowledge which is being hidden, but it is to the effect that after a certain number of cars have used the road then the road can be tarred. The hon the Leader of the Opposition stated that there are certain roads which it is not necessary to tar but that other roads should be tarred so as to make it convenient to the people of the Transkei. In the same breath he states that the construction of Transkeian roads was carelessly carried out. We therefore say that
have all-weather roads reaching them, and I think the pattern of our planning of roads should take into account the fact that we should be opening up the Transkei more by way of constructing roads to these potentially productive areas. What is there between Tsomo and Butterworth that is so important? Nqamakwe is a barren place; Tsomo is more barren, and the macadamization of that road would be tantamount to sending a tarred road through the desert. One should realise that road construction is an expensive proposition and that a Government which undertakes a network of roads construction is hoping indirectly to recover from those areas to which it has extended its network of roads by way of income, whether direct or indirect. Now an hon member comes to this House and and wants a luxury road from Tsomo to Butterworth. (Interjections) Should the road cost something like R10 million to R15 million to construct, when will that money be recovered by the Government? M/AGRICULTURE : From the one thousand cars. MR GUZANA: I suppose the number of cars which has been quoted by the hon member includes his own car too. (Laughter) Now, his possession of a car is only but temporary. Sooner or later we will see him standing along the tarred road thumbing a lift. (Laughter) This is the hon member who wants this road macadamized, so that dust does not fall on his black suit when he is thumbing a lift along that road. It is my submission, hon members, that whenever we bring any matter to this House we must look to the greater good for the number of people, and if there is any money available to macadamize that strip then I say that money should be immediately diverted to other roads for purposes of repair and reconstruction. In the light of my remarks I do reject this motion of my former pupil. Why he ever thought this way cannot be blamed upon me. (Laughter) I think we should reorganize ourselves, as I have said, for the greater good for the greater number of people in the Transkei. In the circumstances, Mr Chairman, I move an adjournment of the House. (Laughter) The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the Tarring of Roads Butterworth Area was resumed. CHIEF M. H. NGCONGOLO : Mr Chairman and hon members , I stand up to support this most important motion. The road which we want tarred is a much used road and there is a great deal of traffic on it. It is time now that we should know those roads which most need to be tarred, particularly now that we are going to be independent. The road between Tsomo and Ndabakazi and the road which joins the Umtata road should be tarred, more especially the road from Ndabakazi which becomes impassable when it rains. All that happens is that you find a collection of soil at the side of the road and this is only done along the Ndabakazi road while all the other roads are neglected. That is why we require that road to be tarred, just as the road between Butterworth and Umtata is tarred. When that road has been tarred the Government will be in a position to attend to other roads which join the Ndabakazi/Tsomo road. The mover of this motion gave figures about the number of vehicles using that road. I say there are also a number of buses which use the same road. Even the figures given by the mover are lower than the actual number of vehicles which use that road. If you go to East London from Queenstown you go through Cofimvaba, Tsomo and Ndabakazi and finally to East London. I know all the hon members realise the necessity for tarring that particular road. In fact, even when they go out canvassing for votes they use that road. I heard the hon the Leader of the Opposition say there was no need for that road to be tarred and he mentioned other roads which he says need attention although at present we have not said anything about them. The mover states that this road should be the first one to be attended to. We say the Government should first attend to this road and the other roads will follow when the question has been raised in this House. I know why he objects to this motion. It is because he will not be able to go to Nqamakwe because he did not receive any support in Nqamakwe. Even in Ncambedlana where he lives he has no support and he automatic80.
work on these other roads should be suspended and when these roads are being attended to there should at least be some standard roads. He further stated there are some important roads and some which are not important in the Transkei. We people use cars and we do not know there are certain roads which can be regarded as unimportant. He said the road between Pakade and Port Shepstone is important and he gave reasons for that. As I have already stated, any road that joins the road from Tsomo to Butterworth is important. The hon Mr Dekeda indicated that the town of Butterworth is as important as Johannesburg, because of the establishment of factories and secondly because of the material which has to be taken from the urban areas to Butterworth and vice versa. He also made mention of the dry and barren area in which we live, but that state does not affect the materials which are being conveyed from Johannesburg to factories in Butterworth. I accordingly support this motion. I have already stated that vehicles which use this road come from all over the country. For example, vehicles which come from Elliot, Cala and Cofimvaba use this road, and some from the other side still use this road. It is therefore only right that the taxpayer should enjoy his rights. I support the motion. MR P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support this motion wholeheartedly. We are here to express the views of the people, particularly in regard to roads. It is our opinion that all the roads should be put right because they have been damaged by the recent heavy rains. We cannot oppose such a move because should that road be tarred it will not be easily damaged again even by the rain. We would be pleased if the road between Viedgesville and Coffee Bay should also be tarred. That is our own road. These roads are difficult and when it rains they are impassable. The motion which has been introduced is an important motion and the Government should see to it that these roads are attended to. We feel that employment should be created because our people have to find employment. We know that should the Government accept this proposal many of our people will be employed. The construction company which attends to the tarring of roads will employ them. We thank the hon member for such an important motion. The Govenment is responsible for the financies and our Government could request the Republican Government to finance a scheme like this because the Republic has more money than the Transkei. The Republic has goldmines, coalmines and their funds are enormous. If the Government has no money they should appeal for funds, because the road mentioned is an important link. The road through Queenstown is a very important link. If the Government has no money it should appeal to other governments to come to its assistance. I will even mention Malawi, which could be asked to come to the rescue. They could appeal to anybody for funds, even Russia, if Russia can supply, the funds. (Laughter) The Government should pay attention to these requests, particularly if the request is for a tarred road. Our roads should be like the roads in Johannesburg. We do not hand this country over to anybody else because it is our country and we would like it to be increased until we own the whole of Africa. We would like our country to have the same conveniences as Cape Town and Johannesburg. I am supporting this motion as I speak. We should consider a motion like this because the motion itself is not individual or personal to the mover. He has a mandate from his people. An elected member in particular should be supported so that we keep in view the interests of the people who have elected us. The road we are discussing now, and also other roads, should be considered seriously for repairs. Our bridges have been damaged and repairs should be effected. When the hon member for Nqamakwe brings such an important motion as this one, we feel he is just the right kind of member. I think the people of Nqamakwe will be very happy when they hear about this motion. Any motorist who uses this road will be pleased to hear of this discussion. Everybody will now be ready to use this road once it has been repaired as suggested. If this road is attended to I shall also buy a car. (Laughter) At present I have no car. This motion does not warrant any opposition but should be passed as it stands. An hon member comes into this House, something is moved, the people welcome it and some
hon member just opposes. What would be the position now if someone brings a motion in the interests of the people and this motion is rejected? I am refering to anyone who will oppose a motion of this kind. That hon member who opposes it is not considering the interests of the people. CHAIRMAN: Hon member, you are repeating yourself. MR NKOSIYANE: I appeal to the hon members to support this motion. This is an important motion. CHAIRMAN : Hon member, you are repeating yourself. CHIEF M. J. SIGCAU : Mr Chairman and hon members, I also support this motion. These roads are much used. I was on the road from Lusikisiki and there was nearly a mishap to the bus I was in. The graders must be used as they are required. These narrow bridges have to be constructed or repaired in such a way that it is easy for a car to pass over them. I am now referring to the hon the Minister of Roads and Works and also his officers. The road from Pakade to Lusikisiki should be tarred immediately. The hon member for Nqamakwe says the road through his area should be tarred. I also appeal to the hon Minister to tar the road I have just mentioned in the east. The other roads may be repaired as the hon Minister may from time to time decide. The roads must be just like the road from Umtata to Engcobo. The old roads were cemented when the post used to be transported by road and then robbers and highwaymen would robe those postcars. Now we get stuck on the road and we are attacked by thugs. It was MacAdam who devised this method of surfacing roads. Now let us improve on what Mr MacAdam devised. In fact, we want tarred roads all over. CHIEF N. M. MATANZIMA: Mr Chairman and hon members, if no motion has been brought to put the road from Pakade and elsewhere into good state, should we follow suit? If those roads require to be tarred, why should a motion not be submitted? Should we waste time on those roads when there is a motion in the meantime that a particular road should be tarred? If no motion has been submitted in connection with those other roads, let us maintain the old adage that a child who does not cry on its mother's back will die. Today we are confined to only one road that is, from Gcingca to Tsomo to Butterworth. The bad condition of the roads does a lot of damage to the vehicles of those of us who have cars. I will not forget about the expense of a car and the amount of money we spend on them. Hon members ask where the money will come from. We are not addressing the Minister of Finance but the hon the Minister of Roads. We will leave the matter of funds to the Finance Department. The hon the Minister of Finance will know about the funds. This House has been told that that road is very much used, particularly as there are certain factories in Butterworth. I will not repeat what has been said about the number of vehicles using that road. We represent the electorate here and it is the Government which will say there is money or there is no money. The people say that that road damages their cars and that the Government should see to the repair of that road. There is nothing serious with the road from Qamata to Umtata. You will find it is far better, and if these roads are put into good condition you will find it is easier to use your car to contact people you were trying to telephone because even if you are never put through. If you telephone in the morning you will wait until you give it up as a bad job. When will you get to your destination, say from Queenstown to Butterworth, over this bad road? Certain hon members want to know what these calls are for. I wish to advise them that as chiefs we are sometimes required in the higher courts and we have to telephone. If the telephones cannot be used and the roads are impassable we are just like pigs in a pigsty. We would that the hon the Minister of Roads should pay serious attention to the question of this road and to see to it that it has been effectively tarred. If they say the tar is very expensive, they even fail to dig up the gravel for which they need not pay money. I think there will be some relief when this has been effected because the tools which were used in the making up of this road will then be used to repair other roads. I hear one hon member grumbling and saying there are at present
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will be adversely affected by the nonexistence of seaside resorts. The question of all the comparative degrees of Ncambele, Ncambedlana and so on looks like a pathetic attempt to confuse people here, where in the Transkei we have a big backlog of road construction neglect and when we start to move somebody says: Don't move because all the roads are bad. I have never heard such nonsense before. Mr Chairman and hon members, I support the motion. CHAIRMAN: Hon members, I shall call upon the mover to reply. MR E. M. DEKEDA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up here not to reply to anybody who has said a word in this House. I am here to thank all those people who have had the courage and the mind to support this motion. I am also glad that I have in this motion the confidence and support of the House. I mind when the hon the Leader of the Opposition said we cannot begin with this road because it is very, very short. It has been here submitted that all the roads in the Transkei are in a very bad state, but everybody with any sense knows that we must start from somewhere. I remember one old man who had five children. They were all starving and there was nothing in the house for them to eat. Their mother came with a small piece of bread. The old man said: My children, this piece of bread is very, very small and you are all starving. I am not going to give it to the eldest or to the youngest, but I think I had better eat it myself. (Laughter) I think that is exactly what the hon the Leader of the Opposition has in mind. The voice of the people is the voice of the Lord. Hon members, I thank you for the support you have given me and the enlightenment which has been given to some people as to why we also need this road from Butterworth to Qolora, because it would appear that some people are ignorant. Next year we are going to move for the road from Willowvale to Dwessa to be tarred, and the road from Flagstaff to Lusikisiki as well. All the roads to the sea must be tarred. I would request some of the people here to visit Natal where every single road to the coast is tarred, but I believe there they had to start with one. Is it possible to start all the roads in one day? Mr Chairman, we plead that the road from Tsomo to Ndabakazi to Butterworth be tarred and also to Qolora at the sea, and this must be done as a matter of urgency. Question put and motion carried.
some other roads which should be tarred, and he asked where the money will come from. Which road will not be tarred? Every end must have a beginning and we should therefore begin with the motion which has been brought to the House. Our cars get damaged on these roads and when we take them for repair we pay heavily. Our people are employed in Butterworth and during the weekend they have to use cars to go to their homes, but they suffer loss as their cars are damaged. Although there is someone who raises an objection to this motion he is a lone voice and we can therefore take it that the members of this House will unanimously agree that this motion should be put through. If one wishes the roads to be repaired one has to introduce a motion to that effect and then the matter will be dealt with. It pleases everyone to know that we do not have to write to Pretoria but that we have to send our requests just across the floor. If that hon member wishes to write to Pretoria it is his own duty to do so. We can ask for assistance anywhere, and we could even go to the extent of getting assistance from Russia. One hon member remarked that besides these roads the labourers are doing nothing, but are in a deep sleep. Sir, we can say this without any fear that the roads in the country are being damaged day by day and the labourers are in dreamland, fast asleep. We cannot tell whether it is because of the lack of funds that these roads cannot be tarred. However, we are moving that this road be tarred. When it is recalled that there are heavy vehicles using this road and as a result that road deteriorates daily. I think those who have ears to hear have heard. MR W. S. MBANGA: Mr Chairman and hon members, to treat the subject of tarring the road from Tsomo to Ndabakazi in isolation is not only unfair, but wrong. That portion of the road is part of the main road which runs from Bloemfontein to Queenstown and East London. The branches of this road which affect the Transkei start from Queenstown down to Umtata and Port St John's. The other branch is from this line (Queenstown to Port St John's) from the point already mentioned - i.e. Tsomo, Ndabakazi and down to Qolora at the coast. Now, we have Butterworth as having been nationally recognized as an industrial growth point and in this connection hundreds of millions of rand have already been invested in the factories there. For anybody in his sober senses, let alone the hon the Leader of the Opposition, to say this is unimportant is not only mischievous but very cynical. It has been necessary because of the industries in Butterworth for traffic to increase very voluminously, in particular the vehicles which supply equipment and machinery and other necessary items to develop the Transkei, and to facilitate the transit of this material communication, and especially road communication, must be improved. I could mention in passing that anybody who says Nqamakwe is a barren part of the Transkei is mistaken, and the hon the Leader of the Opposition has shown rank ignorance of the development of those parts. According to available statistics Nqamakwe takes a leading part in agricultural production. However, back to the macadamizing of a portion of this road if this road is not tarred it will remain a hazardous stretch to which this heavy traffic is subjected. I have in mind a picture of many big lorries, cars and every other type of vehicle running up and down this dry dirt road. Can you imagine the amount of dust which is kicked up by this traffic? And when rain has fallen, can you imaginé the effect of the mud on the people who use that road? As we have said, this traffic has increased because of the industrial growth in Butterworth. By comparison road transport is more rapid and more efficient .than rail, and to meet the demand at the factories this road is more heavily used than it has ever been before. In the same way the population in Butterworth has grown fantastically in a very short time. In less than two years the population there in all sections has more than doubled and, since these people must be employed and work to their maximum, they must be treated in such a way that they will be contented with the kind of work they are doing. One of the amenities which will give you a contented staff is an outlet to the sea for a weekend holiday. For the same reason this Government has seen fit that this road logically does not stop at Butterworth but continues down to the sea, because the main aim of developing the Transkei through the establishment of industries in Butterworth
RAIL LINKS : UMTATA/KOKSTAD AND NEIGHBOURING VILLAGES MR M. P. LUDIDI: Mr Chairman and hon members, I move :— "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of approaching the South African Government with a view to obtaining an undertaking from the latter to construct at its expense within a specified time the following rail links: (a) Between Umtata and Kokstad; and (b) Rail links from the railway line contemplated in (a) with towns and villages situated parallel to the rail link in (a).” In dealing with my motion I shall focus my attention on the following aspects, all of which, Mr Chairman, are aspects of the motion. They list as follows:- (1) Reasons for the introduction of the motion. (2) Clarification of the aims of the motion as well as interpretation of the implications of the motion. (3) Acceptability of the aims of the motion to outside and hostile world as well as to the Republic of South Africa. (4) Practic ability of the goal of the motion. (5) Advantages of such tail links. In piloting my, motion, Mr Chairman, I have to be very careful because it is almost habitual of the enemies of the Transkei and the enemies of the Republic of South Africa to condemn any constitutional arrangement or contracts of any country with the Republic of South Africa. People have become so enamoured with the joy of traditional attacks on the socalled evil of the Republic and the so-called Nazi influence of the Republic of South Africa, but, Mr Chairman, it is commonplace to condemn undertakings and treaties with the Republic of South Africa and without full understanding of the causes and consequences of such undertakings. In order to justify the aim of my motion, Mr Chairman; in the face of such traditional anger and condemnation I shall, for a few 82.
Africa and by the Transkei itself, and also by those States that are not influenced by the emotionalism of ideological prejudice in their approach to practical issues. Mr Chairman, I can assure this House that the aims of the motion will be acceptable to the Republic of South Africa on the one hand. The Republic of South Africa is in the position of a parent to the Transkei. It will be known as the mother-country to the Transkei for many generations to come. Historians will write about it, Sir; our children will learn about it at the schools and read about it at the universities. It is a position, Mr Chairman, which entails enormous moral duty for the Republic of South Africa. I say it is a moral duty because separate development, or the homelands policy for that matter, was formulated without Transkeian leaders and because once it was formulated it was almost forced down our throats. MR M. J. DUMALISILE : Why did you swallow it? MR LUDIDI: In other words, there was no alternative way out, but hon members should note that I do not say the Republic of South Africa will have a constitutional or legal duty for all ages to the Transkei. It is just a moral duty, Mr Chairman. If the Republic of South Africa were to refuse such an undertaking, what will that Government tell us are the grounds to refuse treaties with the Transkei the moral grounds while she is honouring treaties with Malawi and the Central African Republic? To urgue that the Republic of South Africa may evade any responsibilities of a moral duty will be negative thinking . In fact, the Government of the Republic of South Africa has made its stand clear with regard to an independent Transkei. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: If the Republic has no conscience, what then? MR LUDIDI: I think then we will have to concede that its conscience will be pricked by the pressure coming down from outside the borders of the Republic. Coming back to my subject, Mr Chairman, I refer to the words of the Minister of Labour and of Mines, which words he used in his opening address at the beginning of this session. Well, hon members can refer to their copies of the speech. We know in fact that the Republic of South Africa has already created precedents in this direction. It has undertaken to maintain SANTA hospitals in the Transkei even after independence. Not very long ago, Mr Chairman, we also heard about an amendment of a certain legislative measure in parliament in Cape Town. The aim of the amendment was to enable Escom to continue to flow into the Transkei even after independence, therefore any grounds for assuming that the Republic will turn down such a proposition for the construction of rail links in the. Transkei after independence are groundless. Another point is that the prospect of good relationships between the Transkei and the Republic to enter into such treaties has got to be considered. Indeed, it will be a situation which will compel the Transkei to turn to distant countries for help when abundant assistance on her doorstep will not be placed at her disposal. The implications of the development of such a situation are not for me to analyse, Mr Chairman, but for Mr Voster himself; but they, the Republican Government, have been warned on this matter. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: Who by? MR LUDIDI: The hon member asks who warned the Republic of the dangers of such a situation. To indulge his ignorance, Mr Chairman, I will answer the question. There is a certain Mr Ostley of Pinelands in Cape Town. Mr Ostley is a prominent politician in the Republic. He is in fact former member of the Progressive Party a party that is respected by the Government of South Africa, a party that has representatives in parliament in Cape Town. He said an independent Transkei will be forced to look for technical and financial aid and I think he also referred to the development of railway lines and the conr struction of better roads in the construction of better roads in the Transkei. In his advise he emphasized that it was necessary for the Republic of South Africa to inject funds and technical aid to the Transkei now, before independence, failing which an independent Transkei will be forced to Russia, Red China or any country for such assistance. MR MGUDLWA: Do you concur? MR LUDIDI: That is my answer to the hon member for Engcobo. Let me now go back to my subject. Mr
One observes, except in Umtata, a disturbing indifference and, of course, except in the urban areas. People far away from Umtata do not manifest the spirit that one would expect of people orientated and ready for independence. One talks to them and they say in the old fashion that opting for independence has been a premature and wrong step and that the step has been one from the frying-pan into the fire. They say it may be difficult or impossible to maintain independence without even micro-technology and patriotism, without enough land and proper housing to accommodate in the ultimate end even those Transkeians presently in the Republic of South Africa. All this sort of statement, Mr Chairman, makes it very difficult to give credence to independence. It becomes worse when these statements are supported by terror and horror-riden warnings of the disintegrating Opposition. Mr Chairman, it then becomes necessary for the Transkeian Government to undertake development programmes. MR M. J. DUMALISILE: You used to terrorize your people in Cape Town. MR LUDIDI: The question of what I said in Cape Town, Mr Chairman, as the hon member for Willowvale says I used to terrorize the Cape Town people, is irrelevant to my argument. It is clear that the people of the self-governing territory of the Transkei who will constitute the population, as well as the political community of an independent Transkei, need complete reorientation of mental attitudes. They require an absolute change of thinking that will make them not only ready for a new life in a new State, but will also qualify and equip them for the tremendous political tasks and economic opportunities which an independent Transkei will offer. Sir, it is our obligation and duty as a Government to engage in intensified development programmes --- development programmes which will transform the Transkei into a self-sufficient and stable country. The one way of doing this, Mr Chairman, is to effect a sound and healthy network of a communication system across the face of the Transkei. This motion therefore simply asks this House to obtain a contract with the Government of the Republic of South Africa a contract which will make it possible for the latter to join by rail Umtata railway station and Kokstad railway station; and in the second instance do so by constructing deviations from the rail link between Umtata and Kokstad to the towns and villages lying parallel to that railway line. Then, Mr Chairman, I shall now deal with the interpretation of the motion. There is the term in this motion that is perhaps vague and calls for elucidation. The term "undertaking" is a political term that denotes a written arrangement committing one or both parties to a contract of a political or pio-administrative nature. Thus we hear of teachers, nurses and doctors, as well as military advisers and technicians that work for the Government of a particular foreign State. We know of a contract between Red China and Tanzania for the development of a rail link between Tanzania and Zambia, a line which was completed not very long ago. That was a contract or undertaking between two States and may be better defined in the terminology of the political scientist as a treaty. It is in the latter sense that I have used the term "undertaking". Since the Transkei will be independent of the control of the Republic, any undertaking will be seen both by the Transkei and the Republic of South Africa as a treaty. The aims of the motion also need a bit of clarification. The Republic of South Africa is requested to undertake to construct a railway line between, as I have said, Umtata railway station and Kokstad railway station which, once constructed, Mr Chairman, will for the purposes of this motion be considered to begin from East London to Durban. The aim of the motion initiated in paragraph (b) of the motion is to construct, perhaps at a later and convenient stage by the Republic, deviating lines from the line between East London and Durban, so that all the towns and villages parallel to the rail link contemplated in paragraph (a) will mean all towns and villages situated on either side of the railway line in (a) — that is, the line from East London to Durban. For example, Mr Chairman, a branch from Umtata to Engcobo and to Maclear, a branch from Idutywa to Qamata, from Umtata to Port St John's and from Mount Ayliff to Tabankulu and to Port Shepstone. Let us then examine the acceptability of such treaty by the Republic of South
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Chairman, what is the possible interpretation of enemy States of the implications of such a situation on the other hand? I shall not exhaust myself by giving this House an answer to that question, Mr Chairman. We all know that treaties of this kind are normal between States and backed by the provisions of international law. OAU member States under their reasonable Governments I believe will not relate an undertaking of this nature as neo-apartheid. I am not being ironical at all, Sir, so then the aim of this motion has every chance to be understood for what it is simply an evocation of help that will be without strings of the so-called monster of apartheid ; simply a request to construct a rail link and nothing more. Now, Mr Chairman, I am left with one task of exploring the feasibility of the goal of this motion. Mr Chairman, to take the question of constructing a rail link between Umtata and Kokstad into consideration is the fulfilment of our duty to the electorate. We are not going to be unreasonable and say to the Republic of South Africa that this project must be completed overnight, because it is obvious that the undertaking is an enormous project which, if undertaken overnight, would exhaust even the funds of the Republic. Of course, we have got to state in the motion specifications of time. That is normal of a reasonable Government. CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, hon member. It would appear that there is a hot discussion taking place in the galleries. I implore the people in the gallaries to comply with the rules of this House. MR LUDIDI: Mr Chairman, in view of the fact that we are only left with one minute I would request this House to allow me to move an adjournment. The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 6 April 1976.
"(a) Why some teachers in the Transkei are always seen roaming about in the Education Department for their salaries at month ends? (b) Whether the cause of this irregularity is with the administration or the teachers concerned?" REPLY:(a) Through late submission of assumption of duty forms and related documents by the principals and Circuit Offices, teachers visit the Head Office regularly during the first quarter of the year to make enquiries about their salaries. The Department is doing everything in its power to obviate this practice. (b) Not with the Administration as indicated above." MR J. M. SIGWELA: Arising from the reply, Mr Chairman, what is the reason for teachers who have been teaching for ten to 15 years also being found frequenting these offices? M/EDUCATION: Mr Chairman, I submit that I am not aware that there is this practice concerning teachers of such long experience in the service. However, I am prepared to find out from my department if such a malpractice because indeed it is such obtains, and then I will find out the reason. I can assure this House that as much as possible the department will stamp out that practice. You can take my word for it.
QUESTION NO. 13: Chief Ngangomhlaba Mbuzo Matanzima asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:"(a) Since the Government is embarking on large scale irrigation schemes what arrangements have been inade to improve livestock in these areas with the aim of improving the farmers' financial position through dairy farming? Are cattle being improved to allow for dairy farming and cream production?
TUESDAY, 6 APRIL 1976
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ADMINISTRATION OF OATH CHAIRMAN: Hon members of the House, I wish to advise the House that Chief Manzezulu Mtirara of Glen Grey district has arrived to take his seat in this Assembly. Will the new member therefore come forward escorted by two members of the House to take the oath to uphold the Constitution of the Transkei. Chief Manzezulu Mtirara took the oath before the Chairman of the House.
(b) If there are any, what kind of arrangements? (c) If there are none, why is it so? (d) Can these Afrikander bulls ever produce milk cows? Why are people not allowed to make their free choice from all the existing types of cattle and given financial assistance by the Department?"
QUESTIONS. REPLY: QUESTION NO. 11 : "(a) The establishment of Dairy Schemes in the Transkei rests with the initiative of the farmers. When approached the Department of Agriculture has always assisted with the establishment of proposed schemes depending on the viability of such schemes. In this respect good progress has been made at Malenge Irrigation Scheme situated in the Umzimkulu district and Essek Farm in Mount Frere district. For a considerable time bulls of a Dairy Breed have been made available to farmers on a subsidised basis.
Mr. J. M. Sigwela asked the Minister of Education:"Why is the sum of R20 allocated by the Government in respect of each child in standards 5, 6 and 7 not fully used for all the books required in these classes?" REPLY:"R20 was allocated for the purchase of text books excluding set books, teaching aids like dictionaries and atlases as well as stationery, that is, exercise books and notebooks. The book suppliers in competition against each other lowered their prices. As a result the books became cheaper than was expected. The balance of the funds was then returned to the Treasury as it could not be used for the service which had not been previously approved by the Treasury. In fact the Department had made provision for a free book scheme on the 1976/77 estimates but the amount provided had to be withdrawn because of inflation. Provision for a partial free book scheme will be made on the 1977/78 estimates. The only amount provided on the present estimates is that for supplementing the subsidy book scheme. When the free book scheme is introduced, it will include all books except stationery."
(b) Bulls of any Dairy Breed may be purchased privately and if they comply with the standards laid down by the Department a subsidy of R55,00 is refunded to the purchaser. (c) Assistance does exist as explained above. (d) Farmers have a free choice of breed and should a bull of any breed comply with the standards laid down by the Department be purchased by a farmer or farmers a subsidy of R55,00 will be refunded to such a farmer."
QUESTION NO. 14: QUESTION NO. 12 : Chief Ngangomhlaba Mbuzo Matanzima asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:-
Mr. J. M. Sigwela asked the Minister of Education:-
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"Why have salaries of the labourers who have been employed at Zithulele Hospital for a long time been reduced immediately the Hospital was taken over by the Transkei Government?"
“(a) Why is it necessary that a driver who is going to use a tractor be in possession of a standard 6 certificate? (b) How many tractors have been allocated to the Qamata Irrigation Scheme and how many have been damaged?
REPLY: "(1) In terms of Circular No. 17 of 1968 issued by the Department of the Chief Minister and Finance all labourers employed by the Transkei Government have to be paid on the 20th of the month.
(c) Of that number how many have broken down in the hands of drivers possessing the standard 6 certificate, and how many have broken down in the hands of drivers without standard 6?"
(2) The salaries of labourers employed at Zithulele Hospital have not been reduced. As the date set for the payment of salaries was 20 days after their joining the Department they were paid in February for only 20 days. Subsequent payments will be for a full month ending on the 20th of that month."
REPLY: "(a) The possession of a Standard 6 certificate to be appointed as tractor driver is required by the Public Service Commission. Such a person is then appointed as Development Assistant Grade III who can be promoted up to Grade I. The posts of Development Assistant are prescribed posts.
QUESTION NO. 17: Chief S. C. Dalasile asked the Minister of Roads and Works:"Why have the road labourers at Ngcwanguba who have been working at Coffie Bay road been removed from that spot whereas that road is still very bad?"
As far as projects are concerned such as irrigation schemes, tea cstates etc., this qualification is not required and a person can be appointed as a tractor driver provided he possesses a tractor driver's licence. He then fills a non-prescribed post and is therefore appointed as labourer.
REPLY:
(b) 52 Tractors have been allocated thus far to Qamata Irrigation Scheme. The number of tractors out of order at any specific time varies considerably.
"The employees concerned have not been taken away but were merely shifted to another camp on the road from where it is more convenient to perform their duties."
(c) Experience at Qamata reflects no difference in the capabilities of tractor drivers possessing Standard 6 and those who do not."
QUESTION NO. 18: Mr. H. H. Zibi asked the Minister of the Interior:-
CHIEF G. B. SIYABALALA: Mr Chairman, arising out of the reply we would like to ask the hon Minister for some explanation as to how long the tractors which have been damaged at Qamata take to be repaired so that they are in operation again. We also request to be advised how many tractors there are at present out of use so that people are unable to continue with their work. M/AGRICULTURE: Mr Chairman, it is not easy for me to give a direct answer to the first question because the whole matter rests on the availability of mechanics who are required to repair these tractors. Sometimes it takes a long time to get the spare parts before repairs can be carried out. Sometimes a mechanic is not available. In reply to the second question it is not possible for me at this stage to say how many tractors are out of order at the present moment, unless I can find that out from the department.
"Is the means test still applicable to new applications for old age and disability grants? If so, how is it worked out?" REPLY: "The means test is applicable to new applications for old age pensions and disability grants but further particulars thereanent will be furnished during the discussion of Motion No. 19."
QUESTION NO. 19: Mr. H, H. Zibi asked the Minister of Roads and Works:"What is the basic rate of pay for ordinary labourers employed on the Government roads and how long do they take to reach their maximum which should also be shown in figures?"
QUESTION NO. 15: Mr. H. H. Zibi asked the Minister of Health:-
REPLY:
"Why have the Nursing Sisters employed at the Isilindini Člinic under the Tayler Bequest Hospital in Mt. Fletcher not received their full salaries ever since the Department of Health took over their services at the end of September 1975 despite the submission of relevant records to the authorities concerned?"
"Wage scales of labourers are as follows:-
Males Females Youths
R1-20 x 10 cents - R2-20 per day worked R1-00 x 10 cents · R1-40 99 80 cents per day · (flat rate)
Recognition is given for previous experience and a labourer can therefore be started on the maximum notch of the salary scale provided he can produce documentary evidence of his previous experience.
REPLY : “(1) Owing to an oversight by the Public Service Commission the Sisters N. Dube and P. Dontsa were regarded as newly appointed staff members and not staff who had been transferred to the Department of Health from the Tribal Authority.
With no previous experience a male labourer will reach the maximum notch of his salary scale after 10 years service and female labourers after four years service. However to qualify for these annual increments a labourer has to work at least 200 days during the year. "
(2) The matter has already been referred to the Public Service Commission for grading on the the appropriate notch, with full back payment of outstanding salary."
MR H. H. ZIBI: Just a question, please, Mr Chairman. What is the difference between a youth and man as far as the actual job in concerned? MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, also arising from the reply of the hon the Minister of Roads and
QUESTION NO. 16: Chief S. C. Dalasile asked the Minister of Health:85.
result in a court action, so I will allow no further questions on this. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, with due deference to your ruling, Sir, may I ask through you how soon this investigation is going to be completed. M/EDUCATION : Mr Chairman, I fully appreciate the anxieties of the hon the Leader of the NDP on this matter. The department is equally anxious about this matter, if not more anxious about it, but as will be readily understood by hon members of the House, the department has been placed in an extremely awkward position because the principal is not available at the moment. We are therefore not in a position to say at this stage when the investigation will be completed.
Works, may I know what type of experience the department requires of a labourer who seeks employment as a labourer under that department. I take it it is not just pushing a wheelbarrow or crushing a stone. What experience is actually required ? Does his department consider accelerating the increments so that instead of taking ten years to get an improvement of R1 it should take much shorter than that, regard being had to inflation? M/ROADS: I think the question by the hon member will be justly dealt with if he puts it in writing. QUESTION NO. 20: Mr. K. M. Guzana asked the Minister of Education:-
QUESTION NO. 21: Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Justice:-
"Arising out of the Honourable the Minister's reply to Question 2 given on the 30th March 1976. I have the honour to ask:
"(a) Whether the wives of Policemen in the Transkeian Service are getting free medical service? If not, why not?
(a) Who constituted the membership of the meeting chaired by the Honourable the Chief Minister in the Board Room?
(b) Is there a Provident Fund for Transkei Police? If not, why not? and
(b) If those who attended the Meeting referred to in (a) were representative, what bodies or institutions did they represent?
(c) What arrangements have been made in regard to South African Police who contributed to the Provident Fund who are now members of the Transkei Police?"
(c) Were the promotions of pupils from P.T.C. 1 to P.T.C. 2 conditional or final?
REPLY:
(d) What is the financial position now which has "necessitated an investigation into the financial affairs of the Clarkebury Training Institution?"
"(a) No: As indicated in the replies to similar questions which were put by the Honourable Member in 1967 and 1969 the regulations under which the Transkeian Police serve make no provision for free medical treatment of the families of members. It is for various administrative reasons not possible at this stage to make such provision.
REPLY : "(a) Chief Minister, Ministers of Education, Justice and Agriculture and Forestry, Deputy Secretary to the Chief Minister and Finance, the Secretariat of the Department of Education, Education Advisor (Professional) and two Specialist Inspectors for Training Schools.
(b) No. At this stage it would be impracticable to introduce such a fund for the following reasons -
(i) According to existing legislation a company would have ao be formed and registered with an Assurance Association.
(b) The Departmental representatives.
(c) Final.
(ii) An amount of at least R250,000 in cash and other fixed securities would be required to float such a company.
(d) The financial position which has necessitated investigation is:
(1) Non-deposit of receipted collections of R1 386,00 after 2.9.1975. In other words the Principal failed to deposit the money received.
(iii) The Police Force with its relatively small numbers i.e. + - 800 could never get such a fund off the ground.
(2) Suppliers are demanding payment of outstanding accounts for the year 1975 which R20 000,00. total
(iv) Most of the present members are ex-South African Police, and enjoy full membership of the South African Police Assurance Fund and all new members are obliged to contribute to the Transkeian Government Service Fund in terms of the Transkeian Pensions Act No. 4 of 1970.
(3) It is claimed that collections approximating R15 000,00 were received by the Principal from the pupils at the beginning of 1976 and that no receipts were issued for such moneys.
(c) All Transkeian Police who are members of the South African Police Provident Fund retain their membershrip and monthly premiums are deducted from their salaries and paid over to the South African Police, who according to their constitution, do not admit new members unless they are members of the South African Police."
(4) It is allged that the Principal did not comply with the School Fund Regulations." Mr Chairman , I would like to make a further explanation to this House about the same matter. It would appear that the points arising from my reading here are points or allegations made by the parents of the students concerned, but thus far it has not been possible for the department to know the position pretty convincingly about these allegations because the principal was not at the meeting which was conveyed by he detpartment. In other words, we do not know the other side of the story - that is, the story of the principal. In other words, I should like to make it abundantly clear that on no account is the department indicting the principal whose side of the story we do not know. CHAIRMAN : Hon members, I feel this being a very delicate matter the questioning should now stop. It will not be impossible for this matter perhaps to
QUESTION NO. 22: Mr. Norman Sipunzi asked the Minister of Education :"(a) What is the educational qualification for admission to St. John's College? (b) If the standard is a First Class in the Junior Certificate Exemination, why is this so? (c) What is the object of selective admission to the school? 86.
this question today. I will however, endeavour to furnish the required information next week."
(d) Does the Department of Education approve of of the selective admission? If so, was this decision made by the Department or by the Principal?"
QUESTION NO. 24. Chief Daliwonga David Mlindazwe asked the Minister of Education:-
REPLY:
"(a) What the position is in connection with a combined Teacher Training School applied for at Mjozi and or Ndunge in the Bizana district?
"(a) (1) A pass in the Standard 7 examination for admission to Standard 8. (2) A pass in the Standard 7 examination for admission to Standard 9.
(b) What was the Inspector's Report after he had been sent by the Department to inspect the site proposed at Mjozi?”
(b) The requirement is a pass in the relevant entrance examination not necessarily a First Class."
REPLY: (c) The school is always inundated with a number of applicants who exceed the number of vacancies in the school for any particular class. In such cases the Principal has no choice but to admit a limited number. This necessitates a criterion for admission. If the criterion is merit, only the bset of the group will be offered admission.
"(a) In view of the fact that there is a Sigcau Training School at Flagstaff and that Bizana is adjacent to Flagstaff, the Department at that stage could not contemplate the establishment of a combined school concerned. (b) The Circuit Inspector favoured the establishment of a teacher training school in Umzimkulu district as Bizana was nearer to Sigcau Training School than Umzimkulu.”
(d) The Department does not prescribe selective admission for its schools. But selection is sometimes unavoidable where the number of applicants exceeds the available number of vacancies. But as far as possible the Department will not countenance the idea of selective admission under normal conditions."
CONSTRUCTION OF RAIL LINKS : UMTATA/KOKSTAD The debate was resumed. MR M. P. LUDIDI: Mr Chairman and hon members, when we adjourned I was still talking about the fact that the Republic could accommodate the construction of these links in the estimates of its various financial years. Now, some hon members will ask for the reasons to justify the construction of these rail links. What reasons to advance for spending vast sums of money on a railway line between Umtata and Kokstad, and also on lines branching from that line to the villages and towns lying parallel to the main line? What is it going to benefit the people? In a nutshell, is the Government conscious of the general good to the greater number, as the hon the Leader of the Opposition put it? Firstly, Mr Chairman, I submit that railway lines are costly to construct but that also they are a big investment. The money that an existing line would save, and the revenue which will flow on account of its use both by the public and the private sector cannot be expressed in words. Almost all the other government departments are run at the expense of the Department of Railways. We all know that the Department of Railways finances itself and, to some extent, other departments, and that is why with most Governments the Department of Railways is referred to as the State commercial enterprise. It is therefore highly desirable and necessary for this Government to ask the Republican Government to develop a railway system in the Transkei. Such an undertaking is justified by the amount of revenue which will flow into the government coffers. I am thinking about the transport and customs tariffs that may accrue from a railway line from Kokstad to Umtata on the one hand; from Maclear through Engcobo to Umtata. Mr Chairman, I am thinking of the tremendous tariffs in the form of fares that are now enjoyed by the taximen or the bus operators. Indeed, we have such a constant flow of people between Engcobo and Umtata, between Kokstad and Umtata, also between Tabankulu and Kokstad via Pakade or between Tabankulu and Mount Ayliff vią Pakade. These people do their shopping in Kokstad or Mount Ayliff and some of them go to Kokstad railway station to get their goods coming from the Republic of South Africa. Mr Chairman, the inconvenience caused by the termination of the line at Kokstad cannot be understood. Goods lie at the railway station there for a very long time and in the end they get lost. Now, the contemplated rail links would save the situation. Again, Mr Chairman, you think in terms of the goods which have been ordered by businessmen from the Republic. These goods are not transported by government buses to the various administrative areas in the rural areas where most of these businessmen run their businesses and again this has some effect on the improvement of the economy
MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, arising out of the reply by the hon Minister, is it not in effect a policy of that school to prefer first-class passes for Std 9 and 10? And han't the Department endorsed this merit selection by making tenable bursaries to firstclass students only at St John's College, to the extent that a student who has been admitted at another school will be drawn to St John's College because the bursary is only available to that student at St John's College? In such circumstances would the Department of Education say that it is not a party to selective admission at St John's College? M/EDUCATION: Mr Chairman, I have a great respect for this House and to the extent that I never like to answer unless I have had an opportunity to make an investigation. (Laughter) Because of the respect which I have for this House, Mr Chairman, in this case I would ask with all sincerity that the hon the leader of the New Democratic Party must get these things written down so that I must have every opportunity of preparing the necessary answers, and the best of the satisfaction when I am called upon to reply.
QUESTION NO. 23: Chief Daliwonga David Mlindazwe asked the Minister of Roads and Works:
"(a) What happened to the team which used to camp at Mbongweni in the AmaNgutyana Adminitrative Arae No. 6, Bizana? (b) Is the Honourable Minister aware that the absence of that team has brought the following roads to a very bad condition after the heavy rains since last year: From Bizana to Mnyameni Mouth, to Mngungu via Makwantini and to Kanyayo and Holy Cross Hospital? (c) How often is the Superintendent stationed at Lusikisiki supposed to inspect roads in this Region? (d) How often does he actually inspect them excluding the one from Port St. Johns straight to Margate?" REPLY: "Owing to a breakdown in telephonic communications with the Department's Roads Branch office in Lusikisiki it is unfortunately not possible to reply to
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That grain will remain for months and months at Kokstad station. Anybody who orders 30 bags of grain is very fortunate if he receives that exact number because it is likely that he will only be able to get 20 bags out of the 30. Similarly, anyone who is not in Umtata but who orders grain finds the maize is just dumped at Unitata station and left for a long period. I have made reference to grain, but people in the labour centres sometimes send groceries to their homes. CHIEF P. JOZANA; On a point of order, Mr Chairman, I want to ask the hon member whether he is supporting this motion or opposing it. CHAIRMAN : That is no point of order. MR JAFTA: When these people lose their belong. ings they find it difficult to claim for reimbursement and they generally lose. We spoke at length on this motion on a previous occasion but I say it is most unnecessary that we should now repeat ourselves. As we agreed with this motion when it was first introduced, even now on this occasion we are going to agree. The debate was adjourned.
of the country. I am convinced that these rail links would bring relief to such a situation. Mr Chairman, I was interested in this question of the economic improvement. It goes a long way towards the welfare of our people. At the present moment, Mr Chairman, we are talking about minerals in many places of the Transkei. We have mineral deposits in Gcalekaland where, for example, titanium is found in Kentani district. We have gold in Tabankulu, we have nickel and copper in Insizwa and we have deposits of coal in Cala as well as diamonds in Matatiele. Now, Mr Chairman, these deposits would not be exploited without the construction of these rail links. At the present moment the economic development of the country is one-sided. Industrialists concentrate in Butterworth and Umtata. Now, when you ask why there is not a fair distribution of economic development throughout the country the answer is that it would be uneconomic to develop industries, say, in Maluti, because it would be very expensive to transport goods from Umtata to the northern regions. Now, Mr Chairman, if we are interested in a balanced economic development of the country the construction of these links is justified. In the end our people in the various private industries would enjoy better salaries. Just another point, still on the economic development of the Transkei, I have in mind the development of the Transkeian Wild Coast. We very often talk about the tourist industry and we think about the various centres spread all over the Pondoland coast. I am thinking of the Cebe nature reserve; I am also thinking of the Dwessa nature reserve all these, Mr Chairman, necessitate the construction of a rail link between Umtata and Port St John's. Now, my last point to justify the construction of the said rail links: According to the statistical labour report for 1971 the total number of Transkeian males who were away from the Transkei working as migrant labourers was 192 000. Recruits by the labour bureaux who work on the S.A. Railways total 47735. These numbers may since have increased by now. I do not know. There is no doubt that the development of railway lines joining some of the towns and villages in the Transkei would create work opportunities for these people and also for people who are here in the Transkei without work. motion we would certainly find an answer to the cry If these rail links were constructed as requested in the of the Opposition for work opportunities. Mr Chairman, with these reasons I accordingly move. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHIEF P. JOZANA: I second, Mr Chairman. MR N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to make certain comments in regard to this motion and I want to remind this House that this is not the first time this motion has been piloted in this House. When the motion was first brought here the House agreed that this matter should be referred to the Republican Government. In subsequent years questions were put to the hon the Chief Minister asking for the reply to that motion. The hon the Chief Minister informed the House that when he referred the matter to the Republican Government he was informed that this matter would at some future date receive consideration. At that time the requst was to link up the railway line between Umtata and Kokstad. Nothing was said about branch lines which have been mentioned by the mover of the motion, because we regarded the con struction of the railway line as very costly. As we were going to be separated from the Republic we forwarded that motion so that there should be some connecting link between us and the Republic and we regarded it as of vital importanc to have a link from the Ciskei through to Durban. We conceived the idea that the Republican Government would sympathize with us in the building of this railway line. I have already stated that the construction of the railway line is very expensive. We even had to import Italians who are experts in laying out railway lines and those people would come here and demand huge sums of money. The people who suffer as far as this is concerned are those who have their belongings standing out on Kokstad station without being delivered, because this results in a great Ideal of loss. I have had much experience of the sufferings of people in regard to the non-delivery of goods. I know of people who order their grain from the Free State and that grain is dumped at Kokstad station because there are no means of removing it from there.
AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the construction of rail links between Umtata and Kokstad was resumed. MR K. G. NOTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I am happy in supporting this very important motion that we seem to be in agreement over it. This is an old motion and some people say that even the old Bunga once discussed it. I would have been very happy if there should have been an addition to this motion and that is that electric power should also be introduced to the Transkei. The same reasons would be advanced in applying for Escom power as have been put forward in connection with this motion. Hon members have mentioned that in order to accelerate economic growth here a railway line is essential. With the commercial sector it is not a matter of lack of funds which prevents them from erecting large factories. The biggest question is the transportation of the required goods. The other aspect is that the goods will be ready at the factory but the question arises of distributing these goods to the respective centres. A factory will be established and production will start, but the RMT services will drain all their funds, which means that an article manufactured at a place where transport is easy is cheaper than one which is manufactured where transport is difficult. I am pointing out that the people of the Transkei are handicapped not by lack of funds but by lack of means to transport their goods. When one examines the present state of affairs, industrialists will not readily set up at a place even if it is declared a growth point when there is no railway line leading to that point and no electric power serving that particular area. That is why I say these two go inseparably together. We will pass on to something else. The aims of the Government are that people should be concentrated in the urban areas so that the land is opened up for agricultural purposes. These places will grow but the growth will not be the same because these people will not be served by railway lines. People will flock to the urban areas when there is employment for them there. How is it possible for trading to flourish when there are no railway lines connecting these places? How can one get anywhere when transport is lacking? I will pass on and say that the difficulties experienced by traders during the Christmas season, were very great. Merchants order Christmas stock during September or October. A trader gets his invoice dated October. November comes and goes; December comes and goes; January comes and goes; February the same and in March you receive the goods you ordered in September. That is the reason why our trading is not what it should be. Sometimes the goods ordered are at Umtata or Kokstad, but goods which have come subsequently are piled on top of them, so in March people start getting their orders, and after the piles have been removed a trader finds his goods have long been at that station. You will understand that this directly affects one's trading. If the trader does not get the goods at the time he requires them, sales will drop. The sales go down and so does the profit. The profit goes down and so does the tax paid by the trader. This is not a disadvantage affecting only the people of the Transkei, but it also affects the revenue of the Transkeian Govern-
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ment, because the Government does not get the money it would have got otherwise from the traders of the Transkei. Mr Chairman, the mover of the motion covered many points and that is why I shall not say much, but I whole-heartdely support the motion. M/HEALTH: Mr Chairman, I don't know if we have not canvassed this motion sufficiently. It appears as though we will be repeating ourselves if we carry on. Aren't we wasting the time of the House? CHAIRMAN: Hon members, I was also of the opinion that the House is at one on this motion, so we need not waste time any further on it. I will therefore call upon the mover to reply. MR M. P. LUDIDI: Mr Chairman and hon members, since it appears that the House is unanimous on the motion I just stand up to thank the hon members for their support, even those who supported it by memories of the past. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Question put and motion carried unanimously.
MR K. M. GUZANA : You people have an amendment mania. MR MXUTU: There are about 600 agencies in the Transkei besides the fully fledged post offices, and these are called Telephone and Postal Agencies which are accommodated in private premises. There are determining factors before an agency can be upgraded to a sub office, one of which is that that agency should be able to make a revenue of R2000 a year and that it should receive and dispatch not less than 30 to 40 registers a week. At the end of the financial year of the post office the Postal Department conducts a survey of all these agencies to determine what revenue they have made and when they realise that one of the agencies has met this requirement of R2 000 a year they upgrade it to a sub office. Putting up a post office involves a lot of money and in the agencies they have to handle registers and some of them sell postal orders and dispatch and receive telegrams. Those registers are kept in a private safe which belongs to that agency. When you have to put a sub post office it has to be put up according to post office specifications. As I have said, this involves a lot of money and there are three units at least which have to occupy a sub office. There is the equipment that has to be provided for, such as the safe and the Telex and other things which have to be put in sub office. The best that can be asked for at present is that these postal agencies should be put ten kilometres apart to relieve the congestion which is experienced at the main post office. For your information the South African Government spends about R15 million on post offices, and if we agree that we must fight inflation we must try to have these agencies instead of sub offices, at least until times are normal. The Republican Government allocates about R15 million and the post offices have to raise about R3 million to make up for the shortfall, so that in other words the best that can be done is, as I have said, to have the number of these agencies increased and that we should consolidate the existing post offices so that the staff are able to handle the post offices efficiently. I do not say all of them, but some of the officials in the post office are very inefficient, especially in the telephone department, which means the Transkeian Government when it becomes independent will inherit chaos because of some of these irresponsible officers. They seem to have lost touch with the public and as a result they do not now know the language to use when replying to the public. They abruptly say: What do you want? - instead of asking a person politely. As I have said, Mr Chairman, these agencies will relieve congestion at the post offices but if we want some of these 600 agencies to be made sub office we will be hoping for the moon. M/HEALTH: Mr Chairman, I believe we have to be realistic here and not toy about with the time of hon members. Perhaps the amendment by the speaker on the Government side could be acceptable if the originial mover had not amended his original motion, but the fact that this House now intends asking the Transkeian Government to request the Republican Government means that we seem to be asking for exactly the same thing. Without closing this discussion , therefore , I would rather, if we have to waste time, discuss on the amendment than to have another amendment which has the same meaning. In fact, Mr Chairman, the proper thing would be for the hon member to withdraw. I am trying to put the record straight, Sir. CHAIRMAN : The last speaker proposed an amendment to this motion and the amendment has not been seconded yet. Now there is a suggestion from the hon the Minister of Health and I would like to know the feelings of the mover of the amendment in regard to the suggestion by the hon Minister. M/HEALTH : May I add, to make this matter clear, that this is something which is above party politics. It is something which affects each and every Transkeian . Now, whether the amendment is from the Opposition or from the Goyernment side to me does not mean a thing on such a practical issue as this one. CHAIRMAN : What is the feeling of the hon member? MR MXUTU: Mr Chairman, I am aware that this is above party politics but with due respect to the hon the Minister of Health there is a difference between a sub office ....
ERECTION OF SUB POST OFFICES IN ADMINISTRATIVE AREAS MR N. JAFTA : Mr Chairman and hon members, before I move this motion I shall ask the indulgence of the House so that I may amend it to read thus:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should request the Republican Government to erect sub post offices at strategic places in the administrative areas of the Transkei." Agreed to. MR JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to move accordingly. It is a very brief motion and it should be clear to everyone in the House. I live out in the administrative areas and I am a man who lives among the people and who meets them and learns of their difficulties. I have discovered that this difficulty faces all the people who are resident in administrative locations. As I reside in these areas I meet with this difficulty day in and day out. It has not always been so clear how important this matter is, but today if one lives in an administrative area and has to go to an urban area in connection with postal matters it is a common sight to see a long queue of people waiting to be served in the post office. That is a daily occurrence. Usually these people go to collect money which has ben sent to them from the mines and they travel under difficulties as they have to use certain buses. If a man has been sent R10 he will spend R2 of that amount on transport to fetch it. Because of the slow service in the post office people have to wait practically all day to be served. I have seen it happen myself and many other people have seen it. It is not the aim of this motion to have these sub post offices in each administrative location, but they should be situated at suitable spots. If these sub post offices could be erected next to a police station that would also be appreciated. When this matter is being considered, consideration should be taken of the communities to be served, including the number of residents and the number of schools in the area where the post office is to be erected. I have explained fully that this motion_affects all the citizens of the Transkei. The Transkeian Government should consult with the Republican Government and explain the position that our people are now making more use of postal services than they used to. You will find that in the post offices situate in these urban areas the people form long queues. It would please us if this House should seriously take this motion into consideration and consult the Republican Government. It is not necessary for me to say much if I have put all the required points. MR K. M. GUŻANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I second the motion. MR D. B. MXUTU : Mr Chairman and hon members, I am in sympathy with this motion by the hon member for Qumbu, because there is a crying need for more sub post offices, especially when you see queues in all the post offices, not only in the Transkei but also in the Republic, but I have to move an amendment as follows :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should request the Department of Posts and Telecommunications to erect postal agencies at strategic points in the administrative areas of the Transkei." 89.
reporting death or serious illness bog down at the village post office whilst the addressee is living 20 or 30 miles away and cannot get there. MR MXUTU : These agencies do receive telegrams. MR GUZANA: These agencies do receive telegrams, but the agency is something which served the past. It is irrelevant to the present situation and the future and these postal agencies were never adequate even in their time. These were attached to trading stations where you had to wait the pleasure of the owner of the shop before you could put a call through. a telegram you have to wait until he has served his customers. I suppose the hon member for Engcobo still does not realise that time now is measured in money. We no longer want to go to the shopkeepers' places in the morning and come back in the afternoon. Now we want to go at 9 o'clock and come back at 9.30. In other words, time is important and it is relevant to our economic development. No-one can ask for the oxwagon when he is being offered a car, and to ask for a postal agency when we want a sub post office is to equate our mentality with that which prefers a sledge to the car. I need not go into this matter any further unless, of course, there are Government members who do not know what we are talking about. The hon member in the corner --- the back-bencher - still seeks to know what we are talking about. When we talk of a sub post office he thinks it is underground (Laughter) It is not anything like that, hon member. It is difficult to contemplate a developing country which is going to be handicapped or knee-haltered by an inadequate postal service, and we do not canvass the establishment of sub post offices because that is relevant to independence. All we realise is that there is a need for the service, independence or dependence, nonracialism or whatever it is not withstanding. We need these sub post offices and I am surprised that a member of the governing party should think backwards instead of forwards. One cannot argue in terms of work done in a sub post office when one is concerned with relieving the hardship which cannot be measured in rands and cents. It is not that this centre must raise a minimum of R2 000 a year. What is important is whether it helps the old lady get her money quickly; whether it helps the old lady receive her messages quickly; whether it helps the old lady send her messages quickly. We are put to the onerous business of going to the village in the morning and coming back at night. That is the important thing. It is service and not income that is the operative word here. It is the main denominator, and from purely humanitarian grounds can you contemplate the situation of an old lady travelling. 30 miles into Umtata in order to receive a registered letter containing R3 from her daughter who is working as a nursemaid in Johannesburg? The hon member somewhere says there is a postal agency. He is from the Ncora irrigation scheme. (Laughter) There are services which are performed by a sub post office which can never be performed by a postal agency, and I feel, Mr Chairman, that without wasting time we should be in agreement with this motion as amended by the mover and ignore the amendment of the hon member for Engcobo. On this issue we are going to test the bona fides of hon members of the governing party and there is no political capital to be gained out of this. (Interjections) Hon member from the irrigation dam , please give me time to speak. (Laughter) Thank you, Mr Chairman. M/HEALTH: Mr Chairman, I move that we adjourn until 4.15 p.m. M/INTERIOR: I second. Agreed to. The debate was adjourned.
MR K. M. GUZANA: Do you withdraw or don't you withdraw? CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR MXUTU: There is a difference between a sub office and an agency, so that I know for a fact the Department of Posts and Telecommunications .... MR GUZANA: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, the hon member was asked whether he wished to withdraw his amendment or not. He was not asked to speak further to his amendment. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Hon member, what is your attitude to the suggestion by the hon the Minister of Health. MR MXUTU : If that is the feeling of the House that I withdraw the amendment I will .... CHAIRMAN : Is the hon member prepared to withdraw his amendment or not? MR MXUTU: I do not withdraw because I said there is a distinct difference between a postal agency and a sub office. CHAIRMAN: Are you withdrawing or not? GOVT MEMBERS: Not withdrawing. MR MXUTU : Mr Chairman, I am not withdrawing my amendment. CHAIRMAN: Is there a seconder to the amendment? MR C. DIKO: I second the amendment. M/HEALTH : May I just ask a question, Mr Chairman, just to be clear. Does the hon member want postal agencies in preference to sub post offices? ... MR MXUTU : Mr Chairman and hon members . ... MR GUZANA: Say yes or no. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Order, please, hon member for Mqanduli. MR DIKO: On a point of order, Mr Chairman ..... CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Will you answer that question, please. MR MXUTU: I have said there are determining factors in regard to a sub office and it is better to increase the agencies rather than have sub offices because in sub offices each sub office must have R2 000 revenue a year. CHAIRMAN: I shall call for the next speaker. Hon members in the corner, please be silent. MR K. M. GUZAÑA: Mr Chairman and hon members, at a time earlier than today I did address this House on a donkey that was trained to call at a particular bar and it did not matter whether its rider had money to buy liquor or did not have money to buy liquor; whether he wanted a drink or did not want a drink, but the donkey took him there willy-nilly. (Laughter) MR H. PAMLA : Talk about the motion. CHAIRMAN : Order, please, hon member for Umzi. mkulu. MR GUZANA: A propos the amendment by the hon member for Engcobo, he was set upon a railway line that ran in a particular direction. He was politically wound up to full strength and set upon this railway line and told to go ahead. It was never anticipated that there would be another train coming from the opposite direction , so he goes headlong right into this train because he had been wound up to go in that particular direction. (Laughter) No sense or argument, no amount of persuasion or any form of effort to make him change his mind will have any effect. M/EDUCATION: Come to the subject. MR GUZANA: I am on the subject. I am on the amendment, the foolish amendment from the Government side. (Interjections) It would appear that here is a need requiring to be met. Here is a shortfall in the service that should be meted out to the public, that as a result of the inadequacy of the postal services many people have died, lost their lives, because it has been impossible to effect immediate communication either with a doctor or with the police or with a hospital or with an ambulance. The postal agency is an apology for the service which we require. It does not meet the requirements of this age even in the rural areas. The time of the herbalist is running out and people seek to contact a dotor immediately. There is a need, therefore, for a sub post office to serve two or three administrative areas grouped together, amongst which in their geographical area the sub post office is strategically placed. You can imagine the amount of hardship and the emotional involvement and pain when telegrams
AFTER TEA ADJOURNMENT MR D. B. MXUTU: Mr Chairman and hon members , after consultation with members of my party I beg to withdraw amendment. CHAIRMAN : So the original motion as amended by the mover stands. The debate was resumed. MR E. DYARVANE : Mr. Chairman and hon members, I wish to state that I support the amended motion. As has been mentioned in this House, the congestion at the post offices does not warrant the
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as Edendale. I think, Mr Chairman, this motion does not even need canvassing, except by people who have not suffered through the lack of these postal facilities. Most of us here have had some experience of this lack as has been enunciated by the hon the Leader of the Opposition, so we support this motion. CHAIRMAN : The House is on common ground in connection with this motion and I feel the motion has been thoroughly thrashed out. I shall therefore call upon the mover to reply. MR N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to say a few words in reply to this debate. I am pleased that the hon members have agreed and those who were somewhat against it have now collected themselves and come to their senses. (Laughter) It is quite obvious that this motion is a necessity. As I explained, all those people who are interested in the welfare of others realise the importance of this motion. It is for that reason that we see eye to eye on it. People have to travel long distances in order to get their money. It will be noted that newly married young women are given a new name and when the husband or the relatives of the husband are away at work and have to remit money to this newly wedded woman they do not use her maiden name, but the name given to her in her husband's kraal. This sometimes creates difficulties and hon members know that this is a difficulty people meet with daily in the post office. That is why the headman or chief is required to prove that this is the correct addressee. Some of these people come from long distances and they will be forced to return to their homes in order to collect the headman or chief in order to support their claim. A lot of money is spent over this sort of thing and all these things are a worry to our people. When a telephone is not available you will find that in cases of illness or death time is wasted. There is also another difficulty where people are struck by lightning and sometimes even if a person is struck by lightning, if the neces sary medical assistance could be speedily obtained that person might survive, but often people die because of lack of the necessary telephone communication. I have also had the following experience from time to time. When a person dies they quickly bury that person, instead of waiting, and if somebody knew about first aid this life could have been saved. I make this reference in connection with telegrams and telephones. I am trying to expatiate. I am pleased the House has been unanimous in this matter, Mr Chairman. Question put and motion as amended put and carried unanimously. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. ond Wednesday, 7 April 1976.
long distances which have to be travelled by people wishing to make use of the postal services. The speaker who mentioned this only said that the person has to spend an amount which can be as much as R3 travelling to the post office to fetch a registered letter which might contain R7. That was on the presumption that the recipient of the registered letter receives his letter, but in some cases the addressee is not even able to get the registered letter. I may just quote an example. When a woman goes to the post office she finds that the name of the addressee does not correspond with the name in her refrence books. Now she is advised to run down to the Bantu Affairs Department to get confirmation that she is the same person as the addressee. At the magitrate's office she is told she must bring her headman to confirm that she is the person. In that event she has to go back home to her headman. Just imagine the expense! She borrowed the money to go to the post office, thinking she would pay it back out of her registered letter. How is she now going to get back? If there were these sub post offices within walking distance these difficulties would not then arise. It would appear to me, therefore, that the erection of such sub post offices will alleviate great inconvenience to our people and only in special cases where they find the postal agency cannot supply the services will they have to go to town. That is as far as the question of remittances is concerned. Again, I will ask the House to allow a reiteration of what has already been said. I wish to do this for purposes of emphasis. CHAIRMAN: Hon member for Mount Fletcher, you should carry on your financial dealings outside this House. Carry on MR DYARVANE : Now we come to the question of an urgent matter which arises requiring the use of telephonic communication, but the telephone agent is away at the coast. He closed the shop and went to the sea. A man has been arrested by the chief for murder. The chief goes to the telephone and finds the shop is closed and the telephone is inside the shop. The chief goes back with his prisoner and in the course of the night the prisoner escapes. It is not going to be an easy thing even for the police to get that man again, and in most cases he runs away with the handcuffs of the headman or chief. As a matter of fact, I know one chief who has already lost two pairs of handcuffs just because of the delay in communication. If there were a sub post office close by most probably such difficulties would not arise. A sub post office will have a telephone box outside the building, just like a post office but on a smaller scale. People will then be able to contact the police at any time of day or night. That is the case in criminal offences. Now there are cases of injury and sickness which require the assistance of medical services. In most cases you find there is no transport available to run the patient to town and under the circumstances, as previously mentioned, you find the person dies before an ambulance can be summoned from the hospital. Indeed there is a great need and I wonder if the Department of Posts and Telecommunications of the Republic would be fast enough to establish these. In most cases there would not be as large a staff requirement as in the main post office. About four staff members would probably suffice, so I do not think it would be beyond the powers of the Department of Posts and Telecommunications to erect even prefabs for such post offices. I know, of course, that the Department of Posts and Telecommunications is a business concern which must show some profit. As has been said, it used formerly to be subsidized by the Government, but thereafter it was decided it had grown up sufficiently to be able to operate on its own funds. Yes, of course we are not against its procedural ways of doing things. First invest then calculate how much such post offices may produce in the way of revenue, but we can assure the Department of Posts and Telecommunications that it will not regret the adventure. Because of fear of burglaries or robberies we would suggest that almost every afternnon, or on the request of the operators of the sub post offices, they might be able to provide transport for the cash which has been taken and there would hardly be any losses, just as the sub post office at Edendale, which is the same distance from Maritzburg, sends a van to Maritzburg every afternoon and everything goes right. There has never been a robbery in such places
WEDNESDAY, 7 APRIL 1976
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were, after amendment, taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS CHAIRMAN: Hon members of the House, the hon the Minister of Health has an announcement to make on behalf of the hon the Chief Minister. M/HEALTH : Mr Chairman and hon members, on behalf of the hon the Chief Minister, and I am sure I shall also be expressing the feeling of this House, I rise to express our shock on reading in yesterday's issue of the Daily Dispatch the sudden death of the Paramount Chief of the AmaRarabe, Paramount Chief Mxolisi Sandile. Apart from the information that Paramount Chief Sandile was diagnosed on admission to the Grey Hospital (at which hospital he finally passed away) as suffering from pneumonia, there is no other information I can give this House. Be that as it may, I am sure that everybody agrees with me that the untimely death of Paramount Chief Mxolisi at such a young age has not only been a blow to the members of his immediate family and tribe, but to all who knew him. I am sure everyone will agree with me that the Ciskei has suffered a very sad and very terrible loss. I therefore wish to convey to the AmaRarabe tribe the sympathies of the Transkeian Government, and on behalf of this House I move that the 91.
sympathies of the Transkeian Legislative Assembly be conveyed to the family of the late chief. Lastly, our sympathies go to the hon the Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland, Chief Tutor Ndamase, who has lost a brother-in-law through death having laid its icy hands on Paramount Chief Mxolisi Sandile. May his soul rest in peace. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I wish to second the sentiments of sympathy expressed by the hon the Minister of Health on behalf of the hon the Chief Minister. The late Paramount Chief Mxolisi Sandile was still a young man by age standards and one was expecting great things from him. He was a man of very pleasant and unassuming personality. He was an easy mixer with other people and I think his figure dominated the affairs of the Ciskei very considerably. He was a man whose position did not go to his head, but remained humble and was an equal with his compatriots. The expression of sympathy is not merely formal, but very deep and very deeply feit. We are also sad to know that his death is also a blow to the hon the Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland and the immediate members of. his family also. I second the suggestion that a letter be written to the family of the deceased to express the condolences of this Assembly. When a death of this nature occurs so suddenly we become aware of the truth that in the midst of life we are in death and that a man who was there is no more there. May his soul rest in peace and may his family bear the bereavement with fortitude. Thank you, Mr Chairman. The motion was carried, the members standing in silence as a mark of respect to the late Paramount Chief.
notice of motion to be included on the order paper. M/EDUCATION : Mr Chairman, may I ask this House to waive the rules so that I proceed accordingly. M/ROADS: I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. FURTHER RETENTION OF SERVICES : W. B. C. D. NTLOKO M/EDUCATION : I move, Mr Chairman : (Read Motion No. 26 as above) M/ARICULTURE: I second. MR K. M. GUZANA: You must speak to the motion. He has already had two years' extension of service. M/EDUCATION: Mr Chairman and hon members, I am aware of the wishes of the hon the Leader of the Opposition who is mindful of the fact that the said officer about whom I am talking has already enjoyed an extension of service. Indeed , he is quite right but I would like to make is plain to this House that it is a rarity on the part of the department that it should give further extensions to the officers concerned in this department, unless the department is perfectly satisfied that the officer who must have an extention of service has served to the best interests of the department and of the people of the Transkei. Mr Chairman, no doubt the officer concerned has done meritorious service, justifying an extension of service for which I am asking. It will be realised that in the Transkei we are experiencing a shortage of officers and teachers, especially when comparatively recently they were required to start on a new structure, the ramifications of which mean we must have officers and teachers in abundance, which we do not have, and therefore we felt this officer must remain. I think, Mr Chairman, this will suffice. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I am very happy indeed that the Department of Education has brought to this House a motion to extend the period of service of this particular official for a further term of 24 months, and that the reasons for this request are that (1) this officer has rendered meritorious service ; (2) there is a dearth of personnel highly qualified to fill these posts. I take it, therefore, that the attitude of this department is that it cannot allow itself to lose the services of these good men and that men such as Mr Ntusi have been retained for successive periods just because of this reason. The hon the Minister of Education has interjected that the department wants him now. If he should generate sufficient courage to bring a motion relating to the re-employment of this officer, he may count on my whole-hearted support. I wish, however, to point out that we would like this department to be consistent in this attitude of extending the services of meritorious men or indispensable personnel, and I make this comment in relation to another officer who is highly qualified academically who has disappeared from the face of the Department of Education. As far as I am concerned this officer rendered meritorious service like the officer, Mr Clever Ntloko. I am almost persuaded to believe that his work was as indispensable in his particular section as that of Mr Clever Ntloko. The average person, therefore, who is not acquainted with the ramifications and the influences in that department begins to ask the question: Why should we make fish of one and fowl of the other? One would like to have a consistent policy followed in regard to these men who have improved with age and quality by way of academic qualifications; and service which has been meritorious and the indispensability of that service are matters upon which we feel we can strongly question the justness and fairness of the Department of Education in its attitude towards its personnel. Sir, I stand foursquare behind you in bringing this motion to the House, but I would like to be disabused of an impression of preference for the one and discrimination against another, both members of the Department of Education. The hon member for Umzimkulu asked me to name this individual. This is the kind of request you get from people who will handle delicate matters with a chopper. (Laughter) I prefer to use the sharp edge of a razor. Maybe at a later time during this session the hon the Minister of Education will be able to give us a very concise and satisfying statement on
ANNOUNCEMENT BY CHAIRMAN CHAIRMAN: Hon members of this House are requested when presenting their questions to do so before 3 p.m. This is in order to cause your questions to be presented on the order paper the following day. Hon members are requested to comply with this request, please. NOTICE OF MOTION 26.
The Minister of Education gave notice to move:"(1) THAT WHEREAS Section 15 (1 ) of Proclamation No. 334 of 1963 provides that an officer shall have the right to retire from the Transkeian Government Service on attaining the age of sixty years and shall so be retired on reaching the said age. (2) AND WHEREAS Mr. William Baily Clever Diliza Ntloko, Educational Planner attained the age of sixty on 6 December 1973 and should have retired on pension on 7 December 1973. (3) AND WHEREAS the services of the said officer were retained in the public interest for further period of twenty-four calendar months as from 7 December 1973, as provided in Section 15 (5) of the said Proclamation. (4) AND WHEREAS, on the recommendantion of the Public Service Commission, it is considered to be in the public interest to retain the services of the said officer for a further period of twenty-four calendar months as from 1 January 1976. (5) NOW THEREFORE, in accordance with the provisions of Section 15 (5) of Proclamation No. R334 of 1963 as amended, this assembly resolves that the services of Mr William Bail Clever Diliza Ntloko shall be retained for a further period of twenty-four calendar months as from 1 January 1976."
M/EDUCATION: Mr Chairman, may I move accordinigly. CHAIMAN : I take it the hon Minister was giving 92.
this state of affairs vis-à-vis the one and the other of his officials in his department. M/AGRICULTURE: Who is he? MR GUZANA: The hon the Minister of Education would have asked me that question if he did not know the person to whom I refer. As the Englishman said, fools rush in where angels fear to tread. (Laughter) I would like to leave this matter at the high level at which it has been handled and not bring it down to the quagmire of piglets. (Laughter) Question put and motion carried unanimously.
that my suggestion will make the teachers use corrupt methods to satisfy this system but an experiment along these lines will sift the teachers into efficient and inefficient categories. There are continuous complaints even in this system of yearly examinations and that is why I suggest to this House that we make this experiment of quarterly tests. I also say that in more advanced countries this system is in vogue. Let us not lag behind, but let us also adopt this system. I am of the opinion that I have now dealt with this question and I hope the House will be in agreement with me. MR K. M. GUZANA: I second, Mr Chairman. MR H. PAMLA: Mr Chairman and hon members, with due respect to the mover of this motion I would like to make an amendment to assist him to some degree. This is the amendment:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Department of Education be requested to consider the advisability of changing the yearly examination system.” Now, Mr Chairman, it is unfortunate that the man who was called upon by the Opposition to move this motion is a man who is not quite well versed in the subject. For instance, he mentions the determination of a pass based on quarterly tests. I do not know if he really knows what he means by "quarterly tests". I have all the sympathy for his motion and I know that the governing side supports the principle involved, but I must first of all sound a warning to all the out-dated teachers and old-fashioned educationists.
NOTICES OF MOTION 1 27. Mr. Elijah Vikinduku Ndamase gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should consider the desirability of providing funds for the construction of a bridge at Mhlanga river between Marubeni and Nyandeni administrative areas in the Libode district." 28.
Mr. B. P. Vapi gave notice to move:-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Department of Roads and Works be requested to create a connecting coastal road from Hluleka in Ngqeleni district to Isilimela Hospital in Port St. John's district."
MR K. M. GUZANA: Like yourself. (Laughter) MR PAMLA: The hon the Leader of the Opposition 'interjects and says like myself. I would like to warn the hon Leader that all he knows is how to save someone from being convicted. (Laughter) We all agree that the system of examinations is now a thing of the past. In fact, the examination system is nothing else but waste of human potential. I will give you a little instance. Here is a brilliant girl in matric who is expected to write history the following day and she learns the previous night that she is not too healthy. She is completely upset and not fit for examinations and seeing that examinations come once a year she has to present herself the following day. Of course, she gives a very bad performance and as a student she is assessed quite incorrectly. Now, the reason why we have amended this motion is because we are aware of the colossal difficulties that will be experienced in doing away with the system of annual examinations. You all know that there is what is now called a new approach to learning. This new approach means that there must be a complete reorientation of all the forces that have anything to do with education. The tendency in this new approach is to concentrate on the individual. If you teach a class of 30 you are in fact teaching 30 individual people. You have to deal with concepts and see that the concept has been understood before you can go to the next step. Let me give you an example. Many of us went to school singing multiplication tables and we did not really know what that meant. MR GUZANA: That was you, not me. MR PAMLA: I am sure the hon the Leader of the Opposition did not know that multiplication was another form of addition. At a refresher course once in Pretoria an illustration was given by the tutor where the teacher had a big stick and was demanding the 3 times table from his class. One young European boy was so scared that he jumped to the corner before the teacher administered the punishment and said to the teacher: I remember the tune but I have forgotten the words. (Laughter) It reminded me of my days in Std I when the girls supplied all the answers and we supplied the tune. Now, those days are gone in education. Today we concentrate on the individual and we do this through work assignments so that it is actually possible for a clever child to do the three-year lower primary course in a matter of a year and a half. Now, there are a lot of difficulties which make this virtually impossible in the present set-up. Before I enumerate these difficulties I would like to quote an instance of an inspector in Natal who visited Great Britain to study the system of education there, and upon his return he said it would take Africans another ten to 15 years to get to the level of the Europeans. I think this is very true. How on earth can you hope to effect such idealistic projects in a situation where your system
29. Chief George S. Siyabalala gave notice to move:— "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should build houses for the Police Staff, not the rondavels they formerly occupied." 30.
Mr. D. B. Mxutu gave notice to move :-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Department of Agriculture and Forestry consider the advisability of purchasing wheat thrashing machines for use by prospective farmers of the Transkei." REVISION OF SCHOOL EXAMINATION SYSTEM MR N. JAFTA: move:
Mr Chairman and hon members, I
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government be requested to change the system of yearly examniations of school children and give them a pass mark according to the quarterly test marks. " I request this House, Mr. Chairman , to take this matter as a non-party political affair. During the years 1964 and 1965 it was agreed that when we discuss a matter which concerns the education of our children it should be regarded as being above party politics, hence we all rejected the system of Bantu education. There was great rejoicing throughout the Transkei when the idea of Bantu education was rejected by this House. Even in the Republic outside the Transkei there was jubilation. The idea behind the discussions of those days was that our children should be given such instruction that they would fit in with the education system of any other country. This is exactly why I suggest that these children be tested quarterly and that these tests will determine the final result. I think my suggestion will prove to promote the work of the child and also the work of the teacher. This will prompt the child to attend school regularly. The child now will be keen to go to school because the teacher will be bound to be conscientious in his work because he will know the importance of the work he has to perform. You find cases of children who are so nervous during the yearly examinations that they do very badly. They suffer from an examination complex. Even the arduous task of corrections will be lessened in this way, because ,at present the work of correction is piled up in December. My suggestion will also cause the inspectors to visit the schools more regularly. This will also force the teachers to be careful in their work and see to it that the work is up to date. It sometimes happens that a child who is, in the opinion of a teacher, sure to pass fails dismally at the end of the year. Sometimes, too, there is a surprise pass of a below average child. One may think
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so far as European education is concerned. In the case of white schools this is the position: If a child is given homework, or what they call a work assignment, he takes his book plus a small register divided into two columns. This register has dates and is written on the one side "Assisted" and on the other side "Unassited" and all the parent has to do after the child has been given a chance to do his work is to put the date, and if the parent assisted the child in Geography he puts a tick in the relevant column. Apart from that type of supervision in European education you still have what are called Parent-Teacher Associations. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, I don't know if the hon the Minister of Education feels safe in his seat after this piece of oratory. May we see this amendment which has been sent up to you, Sir. Or is there any amendment at all? May I be advised if this alleged amendment has been seconded? MR E. M. DEKEDA: I second the amendment. MR GUZANA : Mr Chairman, I read this alleged amendment: Mr H. Pamla gives notice to move an amendment to Motion 17 .... MR PAMLA: That is just the form. MR GUZANA: This is the alleged amendment: (Read amendment) M/EDUCATION : That is clear enough. MR GUZANA: The right to move an amendment should not be used as an excuse for substituting another motion. We do not know what is being deleted in the original motion and this alleged amendment is in effect a motion as it stands. Mr Chairman, I would be happy if you would give us a ruling on this alleged amendment before I address this House. CHAIRMAN: Hon members of the House, I am of the opinion that the hon member who moved this amendment should have made this amendment in accordance with the procedure laid down in this House. When an amendment is proposed it is usually in the form of deleting certain words and substituting others therefor. I feel the hon member has not complied with that procedure. MR PAMLA: Mr Chairman .... MR GUZANA: Sit down. I am speaking now. Mr Chairman, merely to indulge the hon member for Umzimkulu and in order to assist his education, which was not completed at school, may I crave the indulgence of the House that he be given an opportunity to amend his amendment so that it looks like an amendment. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN : Will the hon member please comply. MR PAMLA: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I do so with great pleasure because I know we have just been subjected to some legal gymnastics. I wish the amendment to be put in this way: After the word "Transkei" delete the word "Government" and substitute therefor the words "Department of Education"; them delete all the words after the word "to" in the first line and substitute therefor the following:- "consider the advisability of changing the yearly examination system." MR GUZANA: Mr Chairman, even at this stage I am not called upon to speak to this amendment. If I remember, Sir, your rules state that the amendment should be in writing and submitted to the Secretary before it is discussed. MR PAMLA: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, this is being done. MR GUZANA: There is no point of order there. I shall speak to it after it has been submitted to you. Assuming it is going to be submitted, I do not see what difference this terminology makes to the substance of the original motion. M/EDUCATION : The difference is vast. MR GUZANA: The motion seeks to have a change in the system of determining passes and in order to bring about that change we credit the Department of Education with sufficient sense to look into the matter before it brings about change so that "considering the advisability" is implicit in the motion which seeks to have a change made. It is important, hon members, that we move with the changes in systems of education throughout the world, and that if we begin to follow a system of education which isolates itself in its concepts and approaches we will find ourselves very far behind in our educational system. The concept which has been canvassed by the hon member for Qumbu in regard to determining passes for pupils is one of the big changes
of education is starved to death financially. Look at last week's Republican Budget. MR GUZANA: You are not interested in that, are you? MR PAMLA: R77 million is to be spent on Bantu Education at all levels as against R1 350 million on defence. It is for that reason, hon member for Qumbu, that we have decided to amend your motion to ask our department to consider changing this system. Now, what are our practical difficulties the difficulties which make it impossible to eliminate the system of annual examinations? (1 ) Inadequate funds. If you are going to educate an individual child then you have got to provide that child with sufficient books, and at the moment the best we can do is to have one book shared by three children. (2) The child/teacher ratio must be lowered. Now for your information, Sir, in some of our secondary and high schools you still have cases where one teacher teaches 60 children, and I will leave it to your imagination to think what the position must be in Sub A. The next problem, if we were to scrap examinations, is the question of teacher orientation. Various Black departments have made some efforts MR GUZANA : What is a "Black" department? MR PAMLA: The departments responsible for Black education. These departments have made efforts such as running one-day refresher courses, four-day refresher courses at Mamelodi, etc. Such refresher courses serve very little purpose. In fact, my personal experience as inspector was that these were the days when lady teachers wanted to show each other how beautifully they could dress. (Laughter) I say this because you would find that they were educated, for instance, in how to approach the teaching of tables and when you got to school the following day you would find she had gone back to the same practice of making the children sing the tables. The next problem we have is that of principal orientation. When I talk about a principal teacher I am always reminded of a book called The Blackboard around my Neck, in which the writer describes the principal as the central pivot around which the whole machinery of learning revolves. I must warn this House that one of the greatest problems encountered in education to-day is to find efficient and responsible principals. I think you are aware that at the moment in the Transkei quite a number of our principal teachers are running shops under the names of their wives and it is a common spectacle to find the principal teacher at a wholesale establishment at 10 o'clock in the morning. Now, if you are going to scrap the system of yearly examinations, who will supervise this individual progress? If you do away with annual examinations you cannot just rely on quarterly tests. You have to rely on individual progress record cards . When you assess that a child is fit to go to the next class you are thoroughly satisfied that the child has met all the requirements of the syllabus in that particular class, and for your information my experience was that in schools where principals were weak in supervision most teachers taught something like a third of the class. If a system like the one you are agitating for is to be a success then you surely must have responsible and efficient principals. I have come across cases where the principal teacher does not know what is supposed to be taught in Std 1 and he is only proud of producing very good results in Std 6. The next problem you will encounter if you want to do away with the system is lack of parental involvement in our educational system. As you are all aware, the present position in our educational system is that it is a two-stream system. It merely involves the child and the teacher. The parents are outside the picture and, in fact, they do not even take an interest and pride in the education of their children. This is proved by the type of personnel they stuff into the school committees. They retain the most irresponsible man and make him chairman of the school committee, and teachers of course are no fools. They seize the opportunity of exploiting the weakness of this man for their own safety, with the result that serious cases of misconduct never even reach the doors of the department, and the poor illiterate parents don't quite know how to go about this business of removing this useless chairman. Now, you will have to develop your system first to include the parents. Let me give you an instance in
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reply to the question of the hon the Pretender to the Ministery of Education. (Laughter) MR PAMLA: Do you think Bantu Education products can do that? MR GUZANA: Bantu Education has produced rather a crippled teacher and even those who have left off teaching after having been trained under Bantu Education produce the type of member we have in this House from Umzimkulu. MR PAMLA: You are not serious. MR GUZANA: Are we going to sit still and do nothing about it just because we are landed with teachers inadequate for the positions they hold? How are you going to orientate the programme of Bantu education? Are we by some magic wand going to produce teachers of the calibre we had from the Ropal Readers day? It is necessary now to muscle in and review our sad educational system with a view to changing it, and as we change it let us not change it to the period of the 1920s and 1930s, but change it to the period of the 1980s and 1990s. That is why we say we should change the system of determining passes. MR PAMLA: But quarterly tests are also examinations. They are not individual progress records. Don't you see the difference? MR GUZANA: I am not suggesting that you should disabuse yourselves of the examination complex. Your progress reports are supplementary to the examination reports at the end of each quarter, so that the examination, supplemented with progress reports, is an assessment of the complete child. Not only his mind, but also his body, his soul, aptitudes, preferences all this is embodied in this which we call a quarterly examination. The hon member for Umzimkulu, Mr Chairman, is a clock watcher and I move an adjournment. (Laughter) The debate was adjourned.
which has been brought about in the educational systems of many countries of the world. In other words, the hon member seeks to pollinate the educational system of the Transkei so that it be fertilized to bring out a better product than we have at the present time. The disadvantages of the present system whereby a pass is determined by an official examination at the end of the year are too numerous for me to enumerate. One could refer to a situation where a student falls ill just before the final examination and because the pupil has missed the final examination he has to repeat the class the following year. I would like to mention also the fact that the end-of-year examination comes at a time when there is accumulated fatigue both in the pupil and in the teacher, and at that time we want to determine whether or not this pupil is going to move into the next class. Then, of course, because of this end-of-year examination which determines passes we have that type of student who, for three- quarters of the year, is not concerned with what he or she has to do in the class and does not concentrate on the work at all, and four or five weeks before the final examinations this pupil sticks his nose into his book and recites the book from beginning to end. All that the questions at the final examination do is to tickle his memory and out flows the swotted information on to the examination paper and the pupil is left as empty as he was before he started sponging up the information from the book. In effect, therefore, the end-of-year pass merely assists the pupil who has a photographic memory. He merely recites what he has memorized but has not been through a learning process throughout the year. Any resistance to the concept embodied in this motion is in effect an admission that everything has not been right in the state of education. The difficulties enumerated by the hon member for Umzimkulu are with us now; they were with us yesterday, and they will be with us tomorrow. We do not need even to change our promotion system to justify the correction of these anomalies. When the hon member for Umzimkulu was cataloguing these difficulties I saw the hon the Minister of Education nodding his head. I would have been happier if, as he nodded his head, he registered on his face some chagrin that after all his years as Minister of Education we still have these problems. M/EDUCATION: How many years? MR GUZANA: The virtue of the suggested change lies in the following factors: The teacher in the classroom divides up his work in a particular subject into four divisions corresponding with the four quarters of the year, and these divisions of work encompass the syllabus for that particular year. At the end of each quarter of the year the teacher knows where he should be and where he is. Next to him stands the pupil who has gone through the work of that quarter. He is therefore obliged at that stage to test the pupil to find out whether or not the pupil has been receptive to his teaching; whether he as a teacher has been successful in imparting information and generating learning in the pupil; and he can only do this by setting an examination on the work of the quarter that has been completed. He is then able to decide whether or not his methods of teaching are correct and relevant to the pupil. He is able to advise the parent of the child that the pupil is in the wrong course and he should be doing an academic course or a general course or doing a course which involves the use of his hands. This helps to eliminate parent frustration over the achievement or lack of achievement on the part of the pupil, and pupil discouragement, at an early stage so that in this way the pupil is diverted into the course of training or teaching that will activate it to a maximum output and maximum satisfaction. If this is done quarter by quarter, at the end of the year the teacher is able to say that pupil X should be promoted to the next class without having the end-of-year examination as a determinant for a pass or a failure. The test at the end of the year is not a test of the work of the year but a test based on the work of the last quarter of the year, and by assessing the pupil's achievement on each section of the syllabus as reflected in work achievement at the end of each quarter you have produced a solid student who will not disgrace himself in the next class. MR H. PAMLA: Do you expect that to be done by Bantu Education products? MR GUZANA: Before we go to lunch, may I just
AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the Revision of the School Examination System was resumed. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, this complete development of the pupil in relation to the teacher in the classroom is the ideal of Education. The emphasis is not on stuffing the child with information, but rather on developing qualities of discernment and understanding and judgment. This will be best achieved by removing this bugbear of a final yearly examination being the determining factor on promotion or otherwise. The hon member for Umzimkulu laid emphasis on the problems in the way of achieving this objective and he laid emphasis on lack of funds. Now, I did not expect that comment from him, being a member of the governing party, for has he not been singing praises to independence? Independence will give him the right to determine how much money will be allocated to education. Why make a song about lack of funds? We will not have to compare the educational grant with the defence grant in the Transkei. All the Government has to do is to allocate sufficient funds to make it possible to run an educational system that will be of service primarily to the pupil and secondarily to the Transkei, since the pupil is the ruler of tomorrow; the pupil is the worker of tomorrow; the pupil is the leader of tomorrow. And let me advise the hon Government members that the Vote for education is going to be a yardstick for determining the bona fides of this Government when it wants independence. M/EDUCATION: There are many important factors to consider. MR GUZANA: I am not concerned with many more important factors. I am concerned with education now, which is the pivot around which all development takes place. You have been crying "Independence! Independence! " Now your cry is worse than your bite. (Inter jections) You plead inadequacy of funds in order to avoid a commitment which is justified on educational principles. The ratio between the pupils and the teacher, the pupil/teacher ratio, is one of the bugbears which requires to be looked into squarely, and if this is an excuse for this Government avoiding this change then I say to this Government there are so many teachers who are not black who are willing to teach in the Transkei that we need not make a song about this. The problem is easily soluble so long as you are prepared to come to your senses.
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MR PAMLA :
Will they serve under a black pri-
pal? GUZANA : The pupil/teacher ratio has been nciMR aggravated by this stupid policy of ethnic division. MR H. D. MLONYENÍ : Nonsense ! MR GUZANA : You create a problem deliberately and you make it an excuse for not implementing up-todate methods of pupil assessment. Lack of teacher orientation is also quoted as one of the reasons why this suggested change cannot be implemented . In 1965 this Government brought into this House a bill which finally became the Transkei Education Act, and one of the grandiose arguments flung at the floor of this House on that occasion was that we were going to emancipate ourselves from Bantu Education . we did. MR : :And ZAANA MR PA GUML For eleven years this Government has been trying to emancipate our education from Bantu Education and today we get a member of the Government saying that one of our difficulties is inadequacy of the teacher , lack of teacher orientation
can you expect our educational system to improve if you are going to leave our education in the hands of h mePA n ? MLA : sucMR
at MR Ncambe ? : What is the community going to do NA ZAna GUdla about a situation like that? Are they going to be interested in the education of their pupils when the education of their children is in the hands of the illiterate and the department stamps this with its approval ? May I just mention this one factor now. The advantage of dropping final year examinations as a determining factor for passing or failing a standard is going to assist the bright pupil who may achieve in two quarters of the year what would be achieved by another pupil at the end of the year , so that at the end of the second quarter of the year he can be promoted to the next class to do the next two quarters of the year in that class. This in itself means that the brilliant student is not frustrated by keeping to one class for a whole year because he must write a pass examination at the end of
after eleven years! (Intejections MR PAMLA: Do you expect ) it to take five years correct to MR NA:atioIfn?it takes so long to correct the ZAsitu GUthe situation then the corrector must be wrong . All this Government has done is to fiddle about with in-service training and futile efforts like that. The simple solution of the problem is an advertisement in the Transkei Gazette for teachers and cut out the word "Bantu". The hon member asks whether a white teacher will serve under a black man. He asks this question when daily these Ministers who are at the head of the government are having white seconded officials under them. (Interions) PAMLA : jectMR
Who
will control the
Are you a school committee member
seconded
r. MLA: Why not call them advanced pupils? t yeaPA thaMR ut retarded pupils ? And what abo MR GUZANA : The retarded pupil wil' take a year in a particular class but the brilliant student will take two standards in one year. This is possible if we drop these end-of-year examinations and promote pupils in terms of their work throughout the year. We are assured then of consistent application of the pupil to his studies if the pupil knows that hard work will mean promotion , and not a final examination result. The last piece of advice I can give to the hon member for Umzimkulu is for him to abandon this purposeless amendment . In essence we are saying one and the same thing , but because he has a teacher complex he thinks that the way he has put it and the language he has used is better than the language already used in the
chers GU ? ZANA : If you ask who can control a teaMR seconded teacher are you suggesting that the seconded officials cannot be controlled locally? MR PAMLA: May I ask a question? MR GUZANA : I don't want a question from you. MR PAMLA: Mr Chairman , may I ask a question from the hon NAber MR GUZAmem : I? am refusing. I am not allowing any questions from you. (Laughter) The simple fact is that your own policy is catching up with you and it is getting right under your skin, so that if we have to tackle the problem and if we are aware of the problem let us not say we have this problem and shy away from it. Let us get down to it. (Interjections) You tell us there are problems and you want to amend the motion. In other words , you are avoiding the consequences of the motion . In other . words , you are prepared to sit under the problem. This is typical of the mentality of a Native . He also wants an excuse to sit down . (Interjections) You are not prepared to tackle a problem when you are faced with it. MR PAMLA : We are realistic. MR GUZANA : Realistic , when you speak about teacher orientation , parent orientation . What does it mean to the hon member behind you? (Laughter) Parental involvement is probably one of the problems we have in our educational system, and probably the Department of Education has been responsible for the low literacy rate of members of our committees. People who are educated and are not in the teaching profession find discouragement from the fact that the Department of Education will endorse and give its approval to a committee of men or women who have never walked into a classroom during their lifetime . By approving such membership the Department of Education is in effect holding back parent involvement in school . It is handicapping development of our education. MR PAMLA: Where must they get educated parents ity terate commun an illi in MR : Where? you have an illiterate comGUZANA munity you can involve the teachers and educated people who are from other communities in order to help such a community. And here I am reminded of a headman in some part of the country who has never been to school and, because he was nominated to the school committee , bought himself a big pair of boots and an attaché case and sauntered into the classroom in order to make decisions which were to be submitted to the Department of Education . (Laughter) Now, how
motion . Mr Chairman and hon members , N : s House IOthi ATure UCass M/ED t to I wan that there was a need for the amendment to the motion and because there is such a need I stand to support the amendment. I want to say to this House that examinations anywhere in the world are not a true test of a child's intelligence and I do not think that the mover of the amendment was unmindful of that fact . All along the line, the mover of the amendment was bearing that in mind. He was aware and I am aware and every right-thinking person is aware that it would be tantamount to madness on the part of anybody to think we can embark upon a change without taking into consideration the difficulties this honourable and respectable gentleman has pointed out to this House . Mr Chairman and hon members of this House , it is to be deeply regretted , and deplored for that matter , that the leader of the New Democratic Party which is unknown to this House - what it - that he has stands for and what it is (Laughter) had to bring down a high level of debate to I don't know what he has been doing here . He has been talking, talking , wasting time . Honestly , it has to be deeply regretted . Mr Chairman , is it because this hon gentleman is obsessed with this idea of minimum requirements which is worrying him because he sees the foundation of the policy of separate development ? Is this his worry, that he will so confuse the issue ? Let me assure him that the decision made by the people of the Transkei that Transkei on 26 October 1976 be independent that decision is irrevocable . Is it any wonder, Mr Chairman and hon members of the House , that we have comparatively recently been witnessing the dramatic collapsing and disintegration of the party led by this hon gentleman for the last twelve years ? I listened the other day to the hon member for Tabankulu when he said we were tolerating the presence of this gentleman in this House , and indeed that is what we are doing. MR K. M. GUZANA : You have got a hope. You will be tolerating me for a lifetime . M/EDUCATION : We have repeatedly told him that so far as we are concerned , the so-called multiracialism means just one thing for a black man, and that is that at all costs he must be an underdog and the white man a top dog, and that position the black man in the whole African continent rejects in toto. He must understand the language of the black man in the African continent and the language of the black man in the African con-
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thinking about this change. If the leader of the New Democratic Party thinks this matter of pupil/teacher ratio is a small thing, we doubt his mentality. (Laughter) In our primary schools it is a commonplace to find a poor African female teacher has to teach children numbering a hundred or more. How can she be expected to pay individual attention to a child? As a result, hon gentlemen, we have a difficulty today. We have money to give to students who should be going to Fort Hare, and this money has to be rendered to the Treasury because there were so many failures in matric last year and only about 300 passed because of this education system. You talk of a change when we haven't even money enough from the Republic of South Africa for our projects. You talk of illiterate committees. Every day in my office there are these socalled illiterate committees coming to my office, embarrassing me by wanting schools to be erected in their areas. Those of us who are moving around with people know full well that illiterate parents are conscious of the fact that their children must be educated. GOVT MEMBERS: Hear, hear. M/EDUCATION : Look at the tremendous sacrifices made by the so-called illiterate parent when they will have their children going to school when they go about with empty stomachs the whole day long. Today we are supposed to be having compulsory education which is a factor in all civilized countries, but in the Transkei you find children going to school voluntarily and they are being chased away from attending school . Mind you going to school voluntarily because the Department of Education has no funds. The Central Government the Republican Government of South Africa has not been unhappy to see that. If you were to look at figures showing exactly the amount of money which must be given to a white child and contrast it with the amount of money that must be given to a black child in school , it would be shocking. The inspectors of education, for your information, find it increasingly difficult even to tell teachers what must be done in their respective schools because, in the first place, when you visit our schools today you will find that they are conspicuous for the absence of teaching aids. You cannot blame the teachers because teaching aids have to be bought and there is no money to buy them, and without these teaching aids there is no black child who will be properly taught. The mover of the amendment said something which was very, very important and I thought this House was going to take this seriously. If we are going to have this system it means individual attention. This individual attention means that the children from day to day and all the time in school must have the direct supervision of the teacher so that at the end of the year you don't have to worry about any examination. The teacher has been doing the work repeatedly all the time, but at the moment it can never be attempted. I would like hon members not to misunderstand this. Even in the Republic of South Africa where you have all these facilities the yearly examination system has not been abolished even in the Republic of South Africa. In fact, I could go so far, even in some European countries they find it difficult to eliminate yearly examinations. Why do we talk of the elimination of the examination system in a country like the Transkei where there are so many problems concerning us? I hope hon members of this House were noting the points the mover of the amendment gave in this connection . They must forget about the myth of multiracialism. Our people in this country do not know multiracialism. Our people know poverty and colonialism which is responsible for that poverty, and when we are discussing matters in this House we must forget about the gallery and what they will think of us. We must forget about that. We know sufficiently well that the examination system as it is being conducted at present is not good enough for our children.
tinent which is being appriciated even by American, and by great scholars there and big politicians, and that is majority rule, when he is still telling us about the myth of multiracialism. CHAIRMAN: I will request the hon the Minister of Education to please come to the motion. M/EDUCATION : Mr Chairman, I want to tell these hon members that they must attach greater importance to the principles enunciated by the mover of the amendment when he educated even the very honourable Leader of the Opposition about the implications involved if ever we were to effect a change. Is it because he is not an educationst, so that he cannot understand that if at all the Department of Education in the Transkei is to evolve a change there are financial implications involved ? Why must he not understand a simple thing - that if this change in the system of yearly examinations must be brought about there must be employment of teachers, and employment of teachers means money -- and money which has not been given to the black people by the Whites of South Africa for years and years. Who can doubt the reality of this statement the parental involvement in affluent societies? The Education Department has got to be guided by the community and by the people themselves. Now he is blaming our people who have become illiterate, but our people have not chosen to be illiterate. MR H. PAMLA: Hear, hear. M/EDUCATION: I am very unhappy about_this statement. Our people are hungry and thirsty for education but they have no money and this is a political expedient on the part of the Republican Government. The Department of Education at the moment is worrying to find that people are not feeling concerned about the education of their children, because they are illiterate -- that is quite true. I have told people that even the worry that is worrying many people in the Transkei, for instance the occurrence of strikes in our institutions, could have been averted by this community or parental involvement when parents themselves would feel it their responsibility and concern to go to the school to advise the principal so that the principal must on no account feel that he is the boss and the school is his. In order to effect a change, which change is needed and nobody can gainsay that fact nobody can gainsay that change this orientation which has been said by the mover of the amendment is the keynote to the whole thing. Listen! He tells us that the appointment_of_the school committee is the responsibility of the Department of Education .... MR GUZANA : No. and that it is shirking its M/EDUCATION : responsibility. The school committee members must of necessity be appointed by the community. That is democracy. MR GUZANA: You approve illiterate membership - that is what you do. M/EDUCATION: We know it is not possible to effect this change. It does not matter how we feel about this change, as long as we have these difficulties we must face these difficulties and we must talk about them. No amount of shirking facing these difficulties is going to help us. If we are going to change the present system so that yearly examinations are avoided this is what is expected of us. We need accommodation because in essence there is going to be individual attention paid to a child. The present congestion in our schools is going to militate against that principle. We are going to consider before thinking or embarking on the so-called new change. We have got to consider even the disappointing inadequacy of the teachers' qualification. They are a product of a political system Bantu Education . We are going to repeat this even to the discomfort of people who have been subscribing to this nonsense . Who does not know the educational philosophy of this country whereby the education of a black child must be made inferior, whereas the education of a white child must be made superior by supplying funds in a white system of education and no funds in our own system of education. It has been the pattern for the last 300 years. We know, those of us who are engaged in the education of our children, that there is a need for this to be done, but it cannot be even attempted unless we are manned and, of course, we are not manned. There are so many things which have to be done by the Department of Education before
We know for a fact that there are many people who have passed their examinations when they have not worked hard enough. We know there are students who will memorise chunks of notes prepared by the teachers and even without understanding those notes they will pass the examination. We know how many students who were enterprising and who had honestly done their work during the year failed their examination at the end of the year, but to contemplate a change at the 97.
moment, as I have said, would be tantamount to madness on the part of the Department of Education. MR W. S. MBANGA: Mr Chairman and hon members, before we adjourned for lunch today we had the pleasure of listening to the ideals of an educational system which we should have had. It reminded one of the position that existed before the introduction of Bantu Education. Up to that time there were schools which were staffed by such capable teachers that they had already been earmarked to follow this kind of idea. Those were the heydays of the Cape education system before the days of Bantu Education. In this connection I am forcibly reminded of one particular student who did Stds 2 and 3 in one year, 4 and 5 in one year and Std 6 in one year with a first-class achievement. I met this particular student in London in 1965. I was invited to a party celebrating her achievement there of having achieved a first-class distinction among the different nations in her examination in London. In the meantime her colleagues in South Africa had managed to pass their JC in two years with a first-class pass. At that time black students and white wrote the same Junior Certificate examination, which goes to indicate that it is not the black mind that is at fault but the conditions meted out to the black child. Hence this Government attaches so much importance to practical difficulties which militate against the initiation of a system of education which will lead to the elimination of the annual examination. The students to whom I referred just now manged to pass in the manner they did because they had comparatively personal attention and supervision in their studies. However, when Bantu Education was introduced in 1955 we did not have the same conditions as we did before and during this long intervening period of Bantu Education. For over 20 years a large force of teachers was produced to man our schools and because the main aim of this system of Bantu Education was to keep the black man in his place we did not have sufficient competent teachers to teach our children in the proper way. We cannot really blame those teachers because they were victims of circumstances. All we can do is to attempt to programme for a system which will eliminate such incompetent teachers. The average teacher who is the product of the Bantu Education system cannot reasonably be expected to appreciate the importance of regular attendance at school. They can be less expected to keep such a record as will give him automatic promotion results at the end of the year. There is also the question of responsibility. In our school system we have but very few responsible head teachers who can with justification keep a record that will be good enough to decide the promotion of a child at the end of the year. There is yet another practical difficulty which manifests itself as a result of this Bantu Education - the division of the syllabus over four quarters of the year. This is a scientific piece of work. It is all very well to talk theoretically, but when it comes to the matter of a principal having to supervise staff of the calibre recently described it is a different thing. If the principal is competent enough to know what to do with the syllabus then he is confronted with such frequent changes of staff in his school that he does not know who was the last teacher to do the quarterly work. We are at the stage when our teachers will change even mid-week , mid-month and mid-quarter, which means of course that there has been no proper endeavour from one teacher to another of the pupils' records. If such continuity is broken who can say that the promotion at the end of the year is genuine? We have to look now at the parents' attitude towards school work. The failure of our teachers at school goes on because of the indifferent attitude of the people around the school. If the teacher has a tendency to bribe the head of a community, no-one in the community will say that should not be done. We have been witnesses at schools and examinations of irregularities which should not have happened if the community were a different one to ours. This Government is aware of these things and is working on a programme towards the ideal. If anybody should attempt to push it at a faster rate now, this is destructive enough. Thank you, Mr Chairman.
has already been explained quite fully. As a matter of fact, we are all agreed that the system of examinations has to be changed somehow. You will understand from the amendment that there is a part of the motion on which we disagree. All those people who have read the K-N-N Commission Report will realise it contains suggestions for a change in the system, but even there there were a number of difficulties when it comes to changing. They mention irregular attendance ; teachers who continuously absent themselves from school; the question of books which were very inadequate. This question of teachers not being up to standard brings us to a point where we may not try to drive the Education Department into this system of quarterly tests, because after the yearly examinations all those teachers will remember that the quarterly tests themselves are a thing of the past. Where you have a good principal who knows his work you have what is known as progress tests in that school. This brings us to the question of individual attention and by the end of the final quarter there is no need for a test. I want to go further. This question of examinations, as has been explained by one of the speakers in the House, cannot be started from the bottom. The teachers in our schools are very inefficient as can be seen from the number of students who passed matric. Take your pens - I am a man of figures. There were 13 regions in the Republic of South Africa which wrote the matric exams. No. 1 was Natal with 12,6% failures; (2) Zululand with 23,4% failures; (3) Lebowa with 24,6 % failures. Now, let me come nearer home. The Cape, which was No. 12 on the list, had 50,5 % failures and the Transkei, which was the lowest on the list, had 57,6% failures. I have read these figures to prove that our standard of education is not up to the mark. Now, the question before us is this: Is it for this House to tell the Department of Education how to run the education system? I think the Department of Education staff are the people to do this that is, the Minister of Education, the Planners and the Secretaries are the people to know where and when to start this change. MR K. M. GUZANA: That will be the day. MR DEKEDA: I have some figures to show what was said by the hon Minister in regard to the money we have not been getting from the Republican Government, which is the reason why we are in this mess. In 1975 the Government of the Republic gave to all the universities in South Africa the following amounts. I give these figures because we have not been able to produce enough teachers even for our secondary schools because the money allocated to Fort Hare was very, very little compared with what was given to the white universities. I will refer you to the SATD which is obtainable only at Fort Hare. You find it very difficult for those students who have got matric to go to Fort Hare because there is not sufficient accommodation and they cannot get preference for that certificate. These are the figures allocated last year to each university:R10 million UNISA R12 million University of Cape Town R14 million Stellenbosch R13 million Witwatersrand R17 million Pretoria R 4 million Rhodes R12 million Natal R 7 million Potchefstroom R 8 million Free State R 5 million Port Elizabeth R 3 million Fort Hare R 3 million University of the North GOVT MEMBERS: Shame! MR DEKEDA: These have been the setbacks of the African to obtain higher education. Mr Chairman, before I sit down I want to request this House that we leave this matter to the Education Department. As I said before, we are agreed that there is need for a change but our Government has men who know when and how to make a change. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN : Hon members, it appears to me this motion has now been thoroughly canvassed, so in the premises I shall call upon the mover to reply. MR N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I shall now wind up the discussion on the motion I introduced to this House. The House supports the motion as it stands but there has been an amendment
MR M. E. DEKEDA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I shall not be long on this question as it
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just because some people want to talk. I expected that there would be some cry about the shortage of funds and the availability of suitable teachers and other minor shortcomings as far as the Department of Education is concerned. I introduced this motion mainly to focus the attention of the department concerned on these points. We cannot make ourselves comfortable in our difficulties. It is the people themselves who have to extricate themselves from those difficulties. Something which happened during 1916 and 1917 has been brought clearly to my mind, although many of the hon members here were not born then. (Laughter) It was at Lovedale when they felt a university there was justified. There were no teachers there, no scholars or students, and it was announced that the University of Fort Hare would be opened. In spite of the difficulties which then existed the people concerned felt they had to open that university for the Blacks. Those were men of vision. In our own time I also urge our people to have vision and that is what we demand of the hon the Minister of Education . We are aware of difficulties in the way but we say that the future has to be considered. I say Fort Hare had no prospective scholars when it was opened . The late Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland and my own brother were the first scholars there and when they were admitted there they had not passed matric. They had passed a course then known as the School Higher Course. A beginning was made under such conditions. A beginning has to be made, no matter whether the conditions are ideal or not for that beginning. We have to consider that aspect when we consider this motion. We should make progress and not just keep on with our difficulties. Thank you, Mr Chairman, and I hope the motion will be accepted as it stands. Question put and amendment accepted. Motion as amended put and carried. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 8 April 1976.
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the_advisability of building more technical colleges in the Transkei, at least one in each region, as the existing ones cannot always accommodate big numbers of students who wish to enrol." Mr Chairman, as this is a non-contentious motion I expect all the hon members in this House to give me the full support this motion deserves, and in doing so bear in mind that this motion is intended for their own good. With our independence just round the corner I think it is imperative that we should do everything in our power to pave the way. I would like to mention a few points in support of the motion. Native or Bantu Education throughout the years has done practically nothing to provide technical educational facilities for our people. Native or Bantu Education was more academically inclined than technical or aesthetic in nature. Children whose aptitude leaned towards the use of their hands, skills, etc, have never been afforded this opportunity in the past. How many plumbers, bricklayers, carpenters, electricians have these past systems of education, Native or Bantu, produced? Aesthetic education was neglected - e.g.. music , arts and crafts, gardening . I want to tell you quite clearly that what this motion seeks to establish is clear to us all. I have already indicated what technical education envisages and you are all aware in this House that there are very few schools or colleges which provide this type of education . More often than not these few colleges are unable to cope with the influx of students who want to enrol. I am sure I share the feelings of principals at these schools that at times the principals are forced to do what really hurts their feelings that is, to refuse applications from most deserving cases because there is not enough accommodation at these existing colleges . With the many changes which are fast overtaking our country it is becoming very difficult to provide this much needed type of education. On occasion I have no option but to sympathize with the hon the Minister of Education who has to face such difficulties . This technical education , though it is now regarded as something new, is something which was already there, but because of the tendency of the white man to keep the Kaffir in his right place nothing was ever done before . The white people had hoped that by so doing , the black man would never rise above the level of an underdog , but because the Almighty God works wonders, because the Almighty God has made provision for the different colour groups to live, hence we are able to face up to the realities of the situation . What we want in the Transkei - our Transkei - is more colleges , colleges of the type that will provide this type of education , colleges which will make us feel we are people in the land of our birth. We do not want to rely on the Whites who do not take an interest in us. Those Whites who think there is no place for them in the Transkei would be better advised to go now. GOVT MEMBERS : Yes. MR NDAMASE: This type of education will provide for the replacement of Whites in all technical fields. While it is not the intention of this good Government to get rid of the Whites, we want to make it clear that we are not going to bank very much on the support we get from the white man. Those white people who want to help us build this Transkei are welcome in the Transkei. We want in this country Europeans who will not always think in terms of colour. We want Europeans who have a conscience. We want Europeans who accept us as members of the human race. We want Europeans who are prepared to work hand in hand with us to mould this Transkei of ours into something. We want Europeans who will help to build the reputation of this country, hence the establishment of more colleges for the Transkei. We do not want to feel inferior to the Whites. As our policy is nonracial we want the Whites to accept us as their brothers in this country of ours. We want the type of Whites who will be prepared to finance our education. We want the Whites who will be prepared to advise us. We want Whites who will help to impart that most essential knowledge which we all seek. Whites must bear in mind that baaskap mentality is a thing of the past. They must help to exert pressure on the Republican Government to vote more funds for the Transkei. Why we want the colleges which provide this
THURSDAY, 8 APRIL 1976
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. NOTICES OF MOTION 31.
Chief Ntsikayezwe Sigcau gave notice to move:-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should consider the advisability that the area beween Tabankulu and Mt. Frere should be one of the Transkei industrial growth points since we have the advantage of the Umzimvubu river and the National Road."
32.
Chief S. C. Dalasile gave notice to move :-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should consider the advisability of constructing a bridge on the Umtata Mouth on the road from Coffee Bay to Ngqeleni district. "
33.
Mr. D. J. Ndleleni gave notice to move:-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should consider the advisability of taking over the erection of a five mile road branching from the Ongeluk's Nek/Mt. Fletcher fork main road straight to Maluti Township to save residents of Ludidi's, Matandela's, Lupindo's and Moshesh administrative areas from travelling via Matatiele and thus pay extra to get to their Magistrate at Maluti."
34.
Mr. D. J. Ndleleni gave notice to move :—
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should consider the advisability of erecting a bridge over the Kenegha River which cuts the Nkosana administrative area into two areas." ERECTION OF ADDITIONAL TECHNICAL COLLEGES MR E. V. NDAMASE : members, I move :-
Mr Chairman and hon
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type of education is because we want to be able to feel that we belong here and nowhere else. I want to tell all the doubting Thomases that our coming independence is not a passing phase. It is an established truth and it has got to be there at all costs. That is why we believe in straightforward talk. The aim is to get these stubborn Whites to mend their ways. Mr Chairman, please don't regard this as an opportunity to attack the white man. We seek to put right what has gone wrong and we have got to do this before we get our independence. We want the people to know what we want for the Transkei and we want the people to know our true feelings about the Whites, so I think straight talking breaks no friendships as far as that is concerned. Let us get these additional technical colleges, hon members. There is a very big demand for this type of education as never before, because it will in a way contribute towards self-reliance which is not possible if we do not get this education. MR M. J. SIGWELA: I second the motion, Mr Chairman. MR H. H. ZIBI : Mr Chairman and hon members, the principle involved in the motion now before the House is indeed a very sound and healthy one and I do not believe there would be anyone who belongs to the world of today who would ever think of opposing a motion of this kind. However, as I listened in earnest yesterday when hon members were advancing submissions on the motion brought here by the hon Mr N. Jafta of Qumbu, some of them seemed to be related to the motion that is now before the Housee.g. financial implications for a scheme of this kind, parental involvement, thorough planning by the department concerned. A technical section in a school with proper and full equipment requires a massive amount of money. In the circumstances I would have suggested that rather than think in terms of regions we would think in terms of zones to start off with - for instance, an eastern zone, central zone and a western zone where these schools could be put up. MR E. V. NDAMASE : Make your own amendment. MR ZIBI: I am meeting you halfway. And eventually, of course, put up such a school in each region and even more than one in the bigger regions. I have in mind a proper technical school, not a school that will supply commercial subjects only. Say that particular school has a section for electrictity, for such a section you will require a lot of money. Motor mechanics, for example, will also require a lot of money. As I say, personally I am of the opinion that it is a very good thing to embark on, but I would like that the department concerned thought of some central area in the east, similarly in the centre of the Transkei and also in the west until such time as we shall be able to favourably consider putting up these schools in each region, and even more than one in a region such as Qaukeni and Gcalekaland which are bigger than Umzimkulu region, so that if Umzimkulu deserves to have such a school it would mean other regions should have more than one of those schools. The truth indeed is that a demand for such schools is long overdue. Mr Chairman, without wasting more time I do believe we are one on the motion, except for that little change. The mover did not go further to suggest perhaps how we could obtain the money to put such schools, or perhaps he had in mind inviting foreign assistance to come and erect these schools. What did you have in mind, hon member? With funds available I am for such schools and I do not, as I said, believe that anybody in this House who knows what education means will dare oppose a motion of this nature. The first essential, however, is finance, and teachers which we do not have in the Transkei . We may have to import them. We may have to import funds as well. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR B. P. VAPI : Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand to support this motion. I regret to have to address a word to the hon members who style themselves Opposition members. The time has come for us to be united. The saying is : Unity is strength. Now that the Opposition has been so disintegrated I would liken them to small dogs barking at a limousine passing. MR H. H. ZIBI: Do you want us to oppose this motion? MR VAPI: The hon member for Mount Fletcher asks if we would like them to oppose this motion. That
is not my idea, but I say everything that separates us now must be done away with. The Whites are leaving us today lost in the desert. Instead of advancing sound ideas there are people who are obstructionists and who confuse the issue. This motion suggests that the Government should move, realising what the needs of the people of the Transkei are. I am certain that our Department of Education will not oppose such a motion and also our department will welcome any suggestions. I am sure the Department of Roads and Works which is expected to erect these schools will welcome this idea. It is true that the stumbling block with our Government is lack of funds. It will be noted that the Government today is engaged in preparations for the forthcoming independence celebrations this year, so that guests from various countries will gain a good impression of the Transkei. Those guests returning to their respective countries will speak well of the Transkei and all they have seen. Now the Republican Government will look with satisfaction, saying that because they have spread the idea that the people of the Transkei are looked after that is what these guests will see. We are agreed that though these technical colleges should be built, the question of money stands in the way. Can we hope that after independence when we constitute two independent countries and governments that the Republican Government will now establish such schools for us when they have neglected to do so for the past 300 years? The white man came to this country to trade. In actual fact he was not interested in this country because he was on his way to India. What happened was the result of an accident when a ship was wrecked near Cape Town and when they were wrecked the idea came into their heads to trade here. They have traded from then till this day with never an idea of assisting the black man. We are sitting here in this parliament now and let me tell you there is nothing to be proud of when we should long ago have been members of parliament in Cape Town. CHAIRMAN : Hon member, please concern yourself with the motion that is being dealt with. Please be as relevant as possible. MR VAPI : Mr Chairman, although one wishes to stick to the motion, all we have heard forces us to diverge. (Laughter) The motion is a request to the Government to build technical colleges in all regions and there should be three in Qaukeni region and one at Port St John's, and then there can be others later on in the other regions. (Laughter) Our difficulty is this the difficulty is money. Yes, we should speak at length because we know quite well that the Republican Government will not assist us. In fact, the Republican Government has made us sit in this House. Now we are facing independence how are we going to build even these schools mentioned in the motion? Instead of assisting us here in the Transkei money is exported to places like Malawi to build townships there. Money is now being exported to a certain Republic whose representatives were here recently. From Paraguay a senior official came here and that visit was reciprocated by the Prime Minister of the Republic who left large sums of money there, leaving the Transkei a desert. The white people have long seen the need for exactly what is required in this motion, but what have they done in this connection all these years? Every child is technologically inclined and even though some of our children may not be good enough to obtain those high certificates they can be trained technically in some degree. The Republican Government realises there can be on friendship between the two countries because they should have introduced technical education, but that was neglected years ago. We appeal to the Transkeian Govrnment to see to it that technical colleges are spread all over the Transkei. When we bring such a motion our Ministers should not just think of the Republic only when the question of funds arises. Allow me to tell you what I think. The hon Ministers should go further abroad than the Republic and there expose what the Republic is doing to us here. They should be like other Ministers who come here and are entertained by them at the Transkei Hotel. They should go to any country which will give them funds. They should not discriminate. This slave mentality of the people of the Transkei is such that whenever one contemplates a certain step he wants to know whether it will hurt Mr White Man. It is a fact that we should keep on friendly
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terms with the rest of South Africa, but the Republic should also contribute to the maintenance of those good relations. If the Republic wants to keep friendly relations between us they should supply us with our needs, otherwise we will go further abroad. It might be unfortunate, because we might hav to appeal to countries which are not friendly towards the Republic. The Republic must not complain, therefore, because if they do not give us what we want we will go to other countries for assistance . We have said that we require a railway line to be built between Umtata and Kokstad. Mr Chairman, the hon member for Willowvale is disturbing me. I have likened those members to small dogs barking at a passing car and now he does not even wait till I sit down, but starts barking at me. We want that railway line at Kokstad. CHAIRMAN: Hon member, that is not the motion. MR VAPI Mr Chairman , I think I have expressed my full views in regard to this motion. I have been saying we should not remain in the desert we are in now. Let us unite; let us go into independence with one spirit. If we have to hit a stone wall let us hit it united. MR S. A. XOBOLOLO : Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support the motion. As the hon Mr Zibi supported it I shall do likewise. It is of great importance that technical schools should be erected for the purpose of educating our children. In fact, we have some schools but there is a shortage of teaching staff. We have junior secondary schools and even there we lack teachers. We expect that we should have compulsory education in the Transkei but before we get what we desire we have first of all to make provision for it. Even now when we have not come up to the standard of technical education we still lack staff in the schools. This motion is of very great importance, but it is also necessary that provision be made in advance. Let us consider the fact that it is not necessary that we should obtain everything at one time. There have been motions on which this House agreed unanimously and we have not as yet realised the first things we require. We should therefore consider our priorities. We unanimously support this motion because of its importance and yet there are still many other things of great importance which we require. There is nothing in this motion indicating that there are different sides taking part in the discussion, but I mention this because the last speaker just said what he is used to saying. It is quite clear it is something that is ringing in his mind that he represents a certain section of the House. Listening to hon members of the governing party, it appears that they have ideas of going somewhere else for financial assistance and yet even after independence we shall still expect the Republican Government to provide us with assistance. We expect this assistance because we are aware that the Republican Government is rich on account of the endeavours of the black people. If we come with the idea that we have been oppressed for such a long time by the Republic, how can we expect to receive such assistance from the Republican Government after we have acquired independence? We are aware of the fact that while the whole of South Africa is wealthy it is on account of the efforts of Transkeian citizens. When we have been told quite clearly that independence has been forced upon us by the Republican Government, how can we therefore expect this assistance from the Republic? We should not put as our first priority the erection of expensive buildings so that when visitors come they are shown the splendour of the Transkei. We should not forget that at the same time it is essential for our youth to be provided with the necessary education. Mr Chairman, I firmly support the motion. MR M. J. SIGWELA: Mr Chairman and hon members, the motion by the hon member for Libode is most important. I knew at its introduction that there would be difficulties such as the necessary funds. We knew when we requested the Government to do this for us that the Government has no money factory, but we are placing this matter in the hands of the Government for consideration so that when they are in a position to finance the scheme they will carry on with it. This motion is so important that every department in the Transkei is affected by it. In our administrative areas and in all the departments of the Transkei there is a difficulty which concerns the Department of
Education, and that is the handling of books and the proper filing of all government documents. Such work would be easy if we had suitably qualified youths who are commercially trained. In high schools clerks are employed who have some knowledge of bookkeeping, and should a clerk be lacking in knowledge there will be confusion as far as the funds are concerned. The difficulty is greater in those schools which are run by the tribal authorities, because the tribal authorities employ anyone as long as he has had a little education. The filing is so bad that when he has to answer a query he cannot answer it even from his own books, When the Europeans left Cala High School I made a suggestion that it be changed to a technical college and that recommendation was put to the regional authority. The regional authority accepted it and I was called to the offices of the Department of Education for an interview. There I was told in a most polite way that being in an urban area it would be difficult to carry out the necessary expansion and I was asked not to press the question. I was advised to apply for a technical college in Xalanga region. There I was told that technical colleges are required in any region, but they have the same difficulty we also realised when we put this motion before the House. They say they have made a beginning in the form of a technical college here in Umtata. The people in authority say they have not sufficient instructors for the various sections of that technical college. When we met again it was pointed out that there are no instructors for the various branches of technical education. Let us say the time comes when these requests are granted and we shall see what a difference it will make. Let us start with the tribal authority, which is the lowest authority, where anyone is employed and they have to keep a record of funds. Members of the tribal authority are put into difficulties because the clerk there is not efficient. There are matriculated youngsters in the offices but they are lacking in commercial training. When it comes to handling money these young men are in difficulties. We sympathize with them because properly trained. A clerk so trained must realise he to be able to handle books properly one must be has to add up the money and take it to the bank, not just add it up and pocket it. There was a motion touching on development assistants and if those assistants were trained in a suitable college it would be easy for them to obtain drivers' licences because they would be instructed in mechanical operation. Some of our young men will be headmen or chiefs after training in these schools and some of them do not attend the Jongilizwe College because it is exclusive. They will attend the technical college here in Umtata. I have observed that the subjects offered at this technical college give one some idea of method. The main difficulty, Mr Chairman, is lack of funds. At the Matanzima High School we have an electric light plant run by the school. There is someone there who has some experience of working under white people and who can manage the plant by switching on and off. If we had these colleges we could get people who are proficient. Sometimes I am worried that the man employed there might make such a mistake as to burn down the school Another line is plumbing so that these people can make the tanks required in schools. This is an important question and I do not want to be very long. We place this matter in the hands of the Government of the Transkei, not particularly the Education Department. The existence of this college has introduced some difficulties. Here they accept students from the age of 12 or 13, but not beyond, instead of admitting children of the ages of 14 to 16 who have not succeeded in obtaining Junior Certificate. These younger ones still stand a chance of obtaining their J.C. but the older children have not been able to do so. We appeal to you that even if you cannot establish all these schools asked for you could established one a year. We would be happy if we could have one in a region and I suggest that the first school be built in the Rhoda region. MR N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I will be brief in speaking to this motion. All the hon members support it and the spirit of the motion is clear. It is something which is much needed in the Transkei. As it has been suggested that even if we start with four such schools that will be a help. It was not that these members were objecting to the motion. As
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have been told that at that school there is mechanics. Our difficulty is we never know where these people go to if they have been trained to complete their courses. For a technical school in the true sense of the word you expect training in electricity, you expect training in upholstery .... M/JUSTICE: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, I think at this stage I have got to make a request to this - namely, that in view of the fact that the hon House — Minister is not really the administrative head, but the political head of that department, as such he might not be fully conversant with all the syllabi offered at the different schools. In order to give him time to find the relevant information which is required by the hon member for Ngqeleni I will ask the indulgence of this House that this motion stands down until 2.15. When hon members require information in this House they want accurate information and it must be seen to that they get accurate information. I am not doubting the veracity of the information thus far given by the hon the Minister of Education, and before I move the adjournment, Mr Chairman , permit me to ask for another indulgence of this House to grant me leave to carry on with an item which I should have carried on with this morning — namely, Item 8 on the order paper. It could not be executed at the time and on the days it should have been, not because of truancy on my part. I was away on official duty as from Monday till yesterday and this morning I was at a Cabinet meeting, so I crave the indulgence of this House to allow me to carry on with before the motion is proceeded with this afternoon. MR R. MADIKIZELA: Mr Chairman, still on the motion before the House, will the hon the Minister of Education draw the line for us between a technical and a vocational school and perhaps a commercial school as well. CHAIRMAN : Is the House agreeable to the request of the hon the Ministe rof Justice re Item 8? Agreed to. The debate was adjourned.
we want progress it will be necessary for us to have such institutions. I do not know whether you are aware of the fact that all trade depends largely on technical education. The making of bricks is one essential. Plumbers are also necessary as well as tinsmiths. M/JUSTICE: A question, please, Mr Chairman. It would appear that the hon members are turning this motion into some omnibus. They want commerce, they want brickmaking, plumbing and every other thing. What type of school do you want exactly? Can you make it clear to this House what you really want? MR JAFTA: Let, me proceed with my speech because the motion is tabled. The motion is that technical colleges should be erected, but we are expatiating. M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, I think the hon the Minister of Education, who is an educationist, would help us. It is no use saying I was away when the motion started because I have found you going off at a tangent. I was here when the hon member for Xalanga was speaking and he was also going at a tangent. There are different types of schools, you see, and you cannot just combine them into one and then think the Government is going to try to hold a witch-hunt to find what you really mean. MR JAFTA: We expect that the hon the Minister of Education would probably explain to us but we are putting forward things which .... M/JUSTICE: I think this hon member is finding himself in a difficulty and his only remendy would be to ask the hon the Minister of Education to explain. MR JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I would ask the hon the Minister of Education to explain this question to us. M/EDUCATION Mr Chairman and hon members, I notice here that according to the order paper you want the establishment of technical schools, and I think the hon the Minister of Justice is quite right. We should be in a better position to differentiate between the technical schools and the vocational schools. However, Mr Chairman, I appreciate the confusion which has entered the minds of hon members. It is because both technical and vocational schools are badly needed in this territory. In any case, I will confine myself to the requirements of the motion. Nobody who is right-thinking can gainsay the truth that technical schools in our territory are a top priority. For that matter, Mr Chairman, I can assure the hon members of the House that those of us who are involved in this regard feel that this vexed question is exercising our minds day in and day out. At the moment, as it is known I believe to all the hon members in this House, we have one technical school and the technical school concerned is the one across here. Even this one technical school is failing to cater for the needs, not only the needs of the people in this Transkei but even the needs of commerce in Umtata. A technical school is a school where we expect the training of people in such skills as secretaries for the departments in the Transkei. We should be having people trained there. We should be having what we call chartered accountants, young men who should be found useful in the Transkei, especially as Transkei is embarking on industrialization and commercialization. In the same technical college we should be expecting the training of typists and stenographers. At the moment even in our departments of the Government secretaries found there cannot be said really to have been truly trained. At the moment in the Transkei if there is any malfunctioning of electricity in our houses there is usually difficulty in procuring the servces of an electrician, because in our technical school the curriculum — I don't know if it is the curriculum — but there are no spare men who could come and relieve. MR R. MADIKIZELA : Mr Chairman, may I ask at the moment what courses does the school offer? Just at the moment, because the hon the Minister of Education is now telling us what it should offer, but what does it offer at the moment? M/EDUCATION: The question being put to me by the hon member is relevant and pertinent. When I took over over the department one of the things I wanted was that there must be either a one-man or two-man commission to go over the curriculum of that school because I was suspicious that all is not well with the curriculum existing at that school. For instance, I have been told (I have not been to the school) that one of the subjects at that school is electricity. Secondly, I
AFTERNOON SESSION BANTU ADMINISTRATION AMENDMENT BILL: COMMITTEE STAGE M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, I move that this House turns itself into a committee in order to consider the Transkeian Bantu Administration Amendment Bill 1976. M/INTERIOR: I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. House in Committee On Clause 1 M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I move the adoption of this section. The amendment simply enables a chief's court to try any offence committed by a Bantu person involving property belonging to the Transkeian Government and limits the penal jurisdiction of the chief's court to a fine in money only, but increases the amount to R60. There will therefore be no question of a person being fined so many sheep or so many goats or so many head of cattle. A person will be fined any amount between, say, one cent and R60. I move accordingly. M/INTERIOR: I second. Clause 1 put and agreed to. Clause 2 put and agreed to. House Resumed CHAIRMAN: Hon members of the House, the Transkeiann Bantu Administration Amendment Bill 1976 has been passed by the committee without amendment. M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman , the third reading will be on Friday, 9 April 1976 or so soon thereafter as the matter can be heard. ERECTION OF ADDITIONAL TECHNICAL COLLEGES The debate was resumed.
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suffered great losses and that has happened as a result of people not haing bricklayers. Some buildings have no foundations and we want our youth to have training in this regard because it is much needed by our people. I think it would be necessary for us to have a number of these vocational schools so that our children should receive proper training. You say these children do not attend these institutions but you are their elders and should see to it that your children attend these schools. It serves no purpose to rush to obtain something that is far away from us, instead of beginning with our immediate needs, because people do not consider something they term small. The motion deals specifically with technical colleges and the hon the Minister of Education has explained what courses are obtainable in those schools. We thank the hon Minister, but it is necessary that all the work that is done by our own people should be provided for. Coming back to the motion, it is our request that the numbber of these colleges be increased . Everyone knows that our children want white-collar jobs and do not want to do manual labour, but the children should be told that it is not only the white-collar jobs that are important, but also ordnary labour. M/JUSTICE: Who must implant that idea? MR JAFTA: The hon the Minister of Justice wants to know who must implant that in our youth. I believe the Cabinet could do a lot in that direction in assisting the people. M/JUSTICE: Why must it always be the Cabinet and not the people? MR JAFTA: If you say that the need is there, you should then see to it. M/JUSTICE : No, but you as parents must see that the children are taught these things. MR JAFTA: You are an outstanding figure and people will readily listen to what you say. M/JUSTICE: And what about you as members of parliament? (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR JAFTA: The one thing I consider of great importance is that we support the motion. M/EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman and hon members , I had indicated that commercial schools in the Transkei are a dire necessity. In fact, I said in this House that this type of work is indeed exercising even the planning section of our department. In other words, I am really in sympathy with the hon member who has piloted this motion through this Assembly. The unfortunate thing about our educational system in general is that for years our education system has been somewhat lopsided in that you had a professional bias almost to the exclusion of technicians, carpenters, builders and consequently we have not even in our departments sufficient people who can be truly called secretaries of these departments. We cannot have chatered accountants. How often do we find in the Transkei that a loudspeaker malfunctions at a meeting and there is usually some difficulty in procuring the services of a man who can mend an ordinary loudspeaker. If we had fully fledged commercial schools in the Transkei, work for the Ministers should have been simplified because the Ministers' secretaries would simply have shorthand, but at the moment we are at a disadvantage because we do not have this type of training even in our technical college. We know for a fact that most people in the Transkei are buying cars in large numbers and at our technical colleges we should be training sufficient mechanics to see to the repair of the cars that are bought every day by our people. Mr Chairman, I do not want to say much about this subject because it has already been widely canvassed by the hon members, except that I can give them an assurance that this aspect of the matter is exercising the minds of the department. I do not want to bore you by telling you about the practical difficulties which are militating against the achievement of our goals but I can assure this House that in the not too distant future something will be done in this direction. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR D. J. NDLELENI: Mr Chairman and hon members, I will be brief because I was not in the House when the explanation was given in regard to technical colleges, but I would emphasize the need for these technical colleges. There is only one technical college in the Transkei and that is in Umtata. It would appear that it does not provide all the necessary subjects , but
CHAIRMAN: Hon membes, before we adjourned for lunch several explanations were requested by members and I shall therefore call on the hon the Minister of Education. M/EDUCATION : Mr Chairman and hon members, I was commissioned by this House today to do some homework during my lunch hour and this House, I suppose, will have sympathy with me because I had no meal this morning and I have not even had a meal now. (Laughter) Mr Chairman, I was commissioned by this House, and I accepted that commission that I must tell them the difference between a commercial school, a technical school and a vocational school, and I will do so. Before I do so I would like to draw the attention of the House to the fact that we have our technical college which is combined with a commercial school, and I shall tell you the courses offered in the combined school. I shall deal first of all with what is considered as a technical school. These schools generally offer the following subjects :- Electricity, motor mechanics, a course for secretaries and a course they call chatered accountancy. Also in the same commercial schools you have the same subjects in advanced courses for diplomas and even at degree level. For instance , where you find in a technical school that a diploma is offered as a course, you will have the following subjects :— Engineering technicians, electronic engineering , mechanical engineering, civil engineering and also woodwork, but at an advanced stage where you find, for instance, things like drawing and drafting, cabinet-making and so on. That is what is found in what is called a technical school, but as you will see, hon members, when I have to deal with our school, which is a combined technical and commercial school, you will find there is a modification of the curriculum to suit our purposes. Now to Ideal with a commercial school - and incidentally, Mr Chairman, we have in the Transkei private commercial schools and there are two of them at the moment which exist and there is another one, and I think when this school is being established in the Transkei this will help people in the Transkei. There is a gentleman from Johannesburg (I think a certain Mr Thema) and this man has been running commercial schools in Johannesburg and has indicated that he would like to start one in the Transkei , and we have agreed. In any event, in any commercial school you will find them offering the following subjects :- Typing, shorthand, bookkeeping, commerce, economics, business economics, commercial arithmetis, etc. I am coming now to what is called a vocational or trade school. Those who have been trained at Lovedale, which used to be a fine institution, will know exactly what we are talking about when we talk of vocational training, where the speaker himself had to take five years' appreticeship in one of these vocational training schools. The subjects are:- Carpentry, bookbinding, tailoring, weaving. Coming home, Mr Chairman, to the curriculum as existing in our combined technical and commercial college, it will be readily noted that there have to be some modifiations here to suit our purposes and it will be readily understood that there has had to be this somewhat peculiar arrangement the combination of commercial and technical training in our college. It might not have been possible, considering funds, to have two distinct colleges, hence the combination. These are the current courses found in this college Three languages are being offered, accounting, commerce, business economics, mercantile law, biology, general science , mathematics, typwriting, woodwork, motor mechanics, The classes range from Form 1 to form 5. I think, Mr Chairman, I have acquitted myself now so far as this question is cocerned. CHAIRMAN: The hon member from Qumbu was still on the floor when we adjourned, so I shall call upon him. MR N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon members , I think it is my duty to thank the hon the Minister of Education for giving us this explanation. In fact, we were just following the motion as it stands. We did not know the details. I am very thankful that we have been told about these other items, but I was still canvassing certain items and I would like to know where bricklaying and plumbing come into this. M/EDUCATION : Vocational. MR JAFTA: We are greatly concerned with all these matters. Because of the heavy rains we have 103.
collar job, either to be a teacher with an umbrella in his hand or a minister with a Bible in his hand or a clerk with a pen in his hand, and we began to move into a psychological state of mind where we began to look down upon those who earned their livelihood by using their hands. We tended to have a superior attitude because we were clerks, because we were teachers, because we were ministers, and we thought we belonged to an élite group amongst our people. Further to strengthen this misconception the man who earned his livelihood by using his hands received a lower wage than the salary of the pen-wielder or the Bible preacher. It is therefore no wonder that we have in these three classes of the élite, according to our outlook, quite a number of misfits quite a number of people who do not belong where they are working and whosoever then were under a sense of inadequacy. Nor did our teachers give us guidance as to the direction of our education when we were in their hands. There might well be lying here great painters, great artists, great sculptors; but because we thought that a white-collar job was the right thing to train for those attempts have been buried, to be forgotten forever. It is therefore gratifying today when we find that this House is seeking to give impetus to the establishment of technical, commercial and vocational schools. Now I would like hon members of this House all to put up their hands in respect of those who are still living in huts. (Laughter) It seems there is nobody living in a hut, so we need the bricklayer, the plasterer, the carpenter to build your houses. We need the architect who is going to draw the plans for us, and so it goes on. Where we become more and more westernized we become more and more involved in industrial change. Now, hands up those men who turn their backs to the wives when they are going to give them money. (Laughter) There are none, and so we need the bookkeeper, we need the auditor, we need the accountant, because we have moved away from a situation where you could count the money in your pocket but have to invest it and put it in a bank. So the changes are coming willy-nilly and so we must prepare ourelves for the changed lifestyle. I do believe that if there is anything required by our people it is training into these skills that will become available at these colleges, but the question of money has been raised as a problem and I agree that this type of school requihes high capital investment and in spite of the fact that the hon member for Tabankulu told us that the Republican Government owes the Transkei R500 000 million I still do feel that we have to make do at the present moment with the available places of training. With the passage of the Apprenticeship Act by this Government I feel that something positive should have been done up to now, and if anybody wants to make me sit down now it is no use closing the door after the horse is out. MR C. DIKO. Sit down. MR GUZANA: The XDC and TDC should by now have had many Africans apprenticed in one or more of these very essential skills. We should by now have had men trained in mechanics, in civil engineering (or in the process of being so trained), people trained in electrical engineering, in welding and so on. This, I think, is one of the areas of training to which I feel the Transkei Development Corporation should apply itself, first of all to fill the vacuum created by the lack of these colleges; secondly to be attached to these colleges when they have been established. It is my hope that the Department of Education will receive all the assistance and support it deserves in its efforts to establish these various colleges. Mr Chairman, I do not want to preach to the converted lest they shed tears and cannot see the plans ahead. All I will say now is this: Most motions unanimously passed by this House have found their way to the rubbish bin. (Laughter) May I say that 98% of the motions accepted by this House have never had any reply coming back to this House. It is my hope that when the Cabinet meets to deliberate on this matter it will certainly apply itself positively to implement this motion, and let it be said there should be no need for the Government to consider the advisability of establishing these colleges because there is a necessity for their establishment. Mr Chairman, I thank you for your great indulgence. Whatever the rules say, I have had my say. (Laughter) M/INTERIOR: Mr Chairman and hon members, I think my good intentions of getting the views of hon
the Department of Education has given some assistance so that there should be some co-operation betwwen this so that there should be some co-operation between this technical college and five other vocational institutions. There are training schools at Teko, Ngqungqushe and - one at Clarkebury and one Umtata. Two are for girls — at Lourdes. At Clarkebury needlework is taught and those are the attempts which have been made by the Education Department. Another great effort has been made by the epartment in employing qualified female teachers, and these teachers have been brought for training in this vocational education. Twenty-four female teachers are taken on annually by the Government and therefore the Government spends quite a lot of money. These laidies are paid their usual salary plus beiing given free education by the department. Now and again these ladies receive their training at Ikhwezi Lokusa. All these other schools go hand in hand with thi technical college. The difficulty is that the motion seeks to create a great number of these technical colleges and I am standing in support of the motion. We do know that it is not the responsibilty of the technical college just to take any student from Std 7 right up to matric, but that is insufficient because we aim at a university college. We are aware of the fact that besides the ordinary needs of the students there is also equipment which is needed and we would that the Transkeian Government should consult with the Republican Government to look into the difficulties and asses our financial position. We would that the Transkeian Government should consult with the Republican Government in order that we are given funds. We do know that the Government meets with difficulties when it comes to raising funds, but it is possible that the Government could obtain money from outside the boundaries of the Transkei. There are several channels but I would cite the mines where our people work underground. The Government could perhaps ask them for donations. There are also coalmines and diamond mines and I am sure those mines are waiting for requests to be made and are prepared to meet our requests because they have used the black man's labour in order to build up those funds. I make the request because we have no funds. I know we agree that there is need for such technical colleges and it is for that reason that this motion is here today. CHAIRMAN: Hon members, I feel this motion has been thoroughly canvassed. I therefore call upon the mover to reply. M/INTERIOR : Mr Chairman, before you call upon the mover I have a suggestion to make to this House. I think that in view of the fact that throughout the discussion it has been apparent that hon members feel there is a need not only for technical colleges but for vocationa and commercial schools, should not the mover of the motion be allowed to effect a change in the motion as it stands so that commercial and vocational schools are also included in the motion? Even the hon the Minister of Education himself, when he was speaking, touched on this. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I agree entirely with the suggestion made by the hon the Minister of the nterior, but I do not think it would be procedurally correct for the mover when replying to the motion to then put in an amendment. In order to regularize the position, therefore, may I crave your indulgence to speak to this motion and move the amendment. (Laughter) GOVT MEMBERS: No. MR GUZANA: Then we shall not have breached the procedure. M/INTERIOR: I would rather speak and move the amendment. CHAIRMAN: Is there an amendment to this motion? MR GUZANA: I have one here, Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN: Carry on. MR GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I rise to speak to this motion and move an amendment. (Laughter) The amendment is that after the word "technical" in the second line we insert the words "vocational and commercial" I shall request the hon the Minister of the Interior to write out this amendment so that I should add my signature to it. (Laughter) I think we are all concerned over the fact that our education has always been a preparation for a white104.
members included in the motion cannot work, due to the rules of procedure. If one looks at rule 72(d) you will see that an amendment shall be relevant to the question on which the amendnient is proposed and shall not seek to extend the scope of the motion. That explains itself, Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN : In view of this explanation we shall suspend the amendment. I now call upon the mover to reply. MR E. V. NDAMASE: Mr Chairman and hon members, in summing up I think I shall have missed a very important point if I fail to thank the hon the Minister of Justice for coming to our rescue at a time when we were very desperate for help. At the same time I will be failing in my duty if I fail to thank the hon the Minister of Education for his very enlightening remarks. We welcome the explanation given on various matters concerning the type of education we want for our children, but while I appreciate the need for vocational as well as for commercial education I see no point in deviating an inch from my former stand. In the circumstances, therefore, I want my motion to be passed as it stands. I also take this opportunity to thank the hon members for the fine contribution they have made to this motion. It is clear indeed that we all want technical education -technical education in its entirety, technical education in its true perspective. Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. Question put and motion carried unanimously. MR K. G. NOTA : Mr Chairman, I crave the indulgence of the Chair that we shelve Motion No. 19 until tomorrow as I am still consulting with the hon the Minister of the Interior and the hon Minister is still consulting with the hon the Minister of Finance on this issue. We can discuss it tomorrow. Agreed to.
road is very,very bad. It can be well described, in the words of the hon the Leader of the Opposition, as a sledge track and a car trap. It is bad beyond expression. Since 1973 alone there have been six accidents involving not less than seven deaths and 150 casualties. Now, that is more than anything else due to its condition. On rainy days, even snowy days, the road becomes impassable in some parts because it is literally washed away. This is understandable because the Maluti region is a mountainous region. No type of vehicle can he driven on it, even a Landrover, during summer when there are heavy rains. Then all the locations neighbouring the road between Lupindo and Rock Ford become isolated. In that way not only the interests of the electorate in those locations are affected, but also the aims and objects of the Government are defeated. I remember an occasion when the magistrate of the area had business to carry out in one of the locations but because of the rain during the previous night he had to telephone and postpone that business with the chief of the area. The payment of social benefits has also had to be postponed on occasion. This situation, Sir, has been reported to the local Roads and Works office. We even went to the extent of inviting the hon the Minister of Roads and Works to a meeting of the chiefs concerned, with a view to acquainting him with the condition of that road. Now, the local office of Roads and Works replied to us that they work according to a financial programme. Sir, I request this House to pass this motion to enable the Department of Roads and Works to give priority to the requirements of the motion. There are numerous reasons for that, but to mention just a few: Consider what I have said about the topography of Maluti. I think all hon members know what is meant by mountainous and sloping country where floods are effective in washing away roads as well as bridges. Mr Chairman, I also have figures to quote with regard to the rate at which people use this road. On 1 June 1975 we got this report from the Department of Roads and Works: There were 305 cars which passed up and down the road, and consider the fact that this is not only referring to the portion I am emphasizing in my argument but between Mount Frere and Matatiele. On 1 January 1976 there were 255 cars, so one would agree that this road is very busy. However, these figures may sound too low and one might be inclined to say there are very few road users going through that way. Now, Sir, I want to draw the attention of this House to one factor. I am the user of the road and I am a member of parliament for that area, so I know exactly what takes place there. The distance between Matatiele and Mount Frere is far, far shorter than the distance between Matatiele and Mount Frere via Kokstad, but now road users who want to get from Mount Frere to Matatiele via Rock Ford are very often forced, even on days when there has been no rain, to go via Kokstad. I remember last year I had very urgent business in one of the areas there. I was together with the hon member for Matatiele, Mr Ndleleni, and we were on our way to Maluti from Umtata where we had been attending a meeting of traders. I asked the hon member to drive through Rock Ford but he refused because of the condition of the road, and this was winter, mind you. My business failed because I had to go with him to Matatiele where I had to put up and the following day I was late for the meeting. Now, I am trying to point out that there is need to bring this road to a good standard because it is not only a road serving the rural villages next to it, but also a road joining two towns and it is convenient. In 1973 the people there were so desperate that they decided to approach the System Manager of the Department of Railways in Durban to apply for a government bus to go through that way to Mount Frere. Now, why did they have to do this, yet that road is a road under the Department of Roads and Works in the Transkei? This is the reason: They said if they applied for a government bus then the Government will see to it that this road is reconstructed and brought to the desired standard before a government bus uses it. I don't want to repeat myself, Mr Chairman, because there are some hon members who wish to contribute to this motion, but just before I sit down I should also like to say something about the road between Matatiele and Qacha's Nek, as well as the road between Matatiele and Ramatsiliso. I have said I do not wish to repeat myself, but
STANDARDIZATION OF ROADS IN MALUTI REGION MR M. P. LUDIDI : Mr Chairman and hon members, I move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Department of Roads and Works to standardize : (a) the road between Matatiele and Mount Frere via Rock Ford; (b) the road between Matatiele and Qacha's Nek in Lesotho; and (c) the road between Matatiele and Ramatsiliso also in Lesotho." Mr Chairman, the motion before the House I assume is not a contentious one. Hopefully I believe the House is going to be unanimous on it. It seeks the Department of Roads and Works to standardize the roads mentioned in paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) of the motion, but, Mr Chairman, the Department of Roads and Works has asked me what I meant by "standardizing”. I have used this term in a special sense which the department should take into consideration. I am not going to equate the meaning of this term with the meanings the department attaches to betterment, regravelling and even reconstruction, so my meaning in my use of the term "standardize" is that those roads should be of a desirable standard the standard we desire or the people require, so that these roads should be all-weather roads. There should be no time of the day or the year when the road users cannot get on to the roads and drive away to wherever they want to go. The roads must not just provide an unobstructed passage to the destination, but they must also ensure a smooth and safe passage both to the vehicle and to the driver. The condition of the roads should not contribute to circumstances that would cause accidents and also cause a high rate of vehicle depreciation. Now, Sir, I request the Department of Roads and Works to give this quality - the quality of allweather use - to the roads mentioned. Let me then tell this House about the conditions and requirements of the road between Matatiele and Mount Frere via Lupindo down through Rock Ford. It can be divided into three parts. The part from Matatiele down to Lupindo junction falls out in this motion. It is part of a road that is still under the administration of the Provincial Administration of the Republic of South Africa and is of a satisfactory standard to road users. Then from Lupindo junction to Rock Ford the 105.
the same applies to those two roads more so as these roads link the Transkei with a neighbouring foreign state, Lesotho. MR K. M. GUZANA: How far are Qacha's Nek and Ramatsiliso into Lesotho? MR LUDIDI: I have not established, Sir, but it is quite a considerable distance both ways from Matatiele to Qacha's Nek and from Matatiele to Ramatsiliso. Now, Sir, there is very often a complaint that the Sothos on the other side of the Maluti mountains come over to steal cattle and the matter is reported to the Transkeian police but because of the condition of these roads it sometimes becomes very difficult for them to chase these thieves. With those words, Mr Chairman, I move accordingly. MR GUZANA: Before you sit down, what is the attitude of the Lesotho Government relating to the section which is in Lesotho? MR LUDIDI: Mr Chairman, I am very very sorry L cannot answer the question by the hon the Leader of the Opposition. MR K. G. NOTA: I second the motion, Mr Chairman. The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday, 9 April 1976.
M/EDUCATION: I second. Agreed to. The bill was read a third time. STANDARDIZATION OF ROADS IN MATLUTI REGION The debate was resumed. MR H. H. ZIBI : Mr Chairman and hon members, I shall speak to this motion extempore because there is no need for any elaboration. The roads referred to are in Matatiele district in Maluti region . Maluti is composed of Herschel, Mount Fletcher and Matatiele, which are very mountainous ares so that the topography is different from the rest of the Transkei because on this side they are more or less on level ground . Indeed it is a parlous state of affairs to have to conceive that there is a lot of government money paid towards the roads for no purpose at all. You find a region budgeting for a certain road and labourers and workers are accordingly paid out and you go and inspect the amount of work which was supposed to have been done by the team, but you find no work has been done at all. As interested people you go to the fellow in charge of these teams to find out what is really happening. They hold the department responsible. After grading we are unable to standardize the road as we like, because we have no lorry drivers. These lorry drivers are supposed to cart gravel from place to place and to spread it on the roads. They say they are told not to employ any driver who does not own a Std 6 certificate. I happen to have been in the Eastern Transvaal for a few years where we had a lot of Ndebeles, Swazis and Zulus who drove right from the Eastern Transvaal to Johannesburg, and those drivers had never seen the inside of a classroom at any time. I believe the whole thing is lack of supervision . When these fellows have graded and they go past they leave the lorry drivers behind to see to the continuation of the job. MR C. DIKO : Bring the Ndebeles down here. MR ZIBI : There is no need to bring the Ndebeles down here because we have lots of drivers in the Transkei, only they have not got Std 6 certificates. My plea to the department, therefore, is let us not have this reply from the department as we got from the hon Minister when he received an invitation to Matatiele and he said he works according to a programme. I suggest that to put that road in Matatiele on a par with the rest of the roads in the Transkei an extra team be placed there. In that region it is not only the three roads mentioned in the motion but in fact nearly all those roads under repair. I do know that there are certain teams allocated to every region, but those units in that region will tell you they are overlapping to Qumbu and Mount Frere and leaving the roads just as they are. I do not need to remind the Department of Roads and Works that the feeling in the region towards the Transkeian Government is such that the position has got to be looked into carefully. (Interjections) The building of schools in that area is in the hands of the Department of Roads and Works. The repairs and reconstruction of those roads is in the hands of the Department of Roads and Works. That is why we feel we must appeal to this particular department so that the inhabitants of that place should feel part of the Transkei. MR C. DIKO: Don't they feel part of the Transkei at the moment? MR ZIBI : You speak in that strain because you happen to be in that fortunate region of Qaukeni where everything is done. If the hon the Minister of Education remembers well I did mention once to him when he was at our place opening a secondary school that we do not have a single primary school in that region because there was no money in the tribal authorities, but just because each time there was a list of primary schools to be put up ... MR DIKO: We are talking about roads, not schools. MR ZIBI: By that I am driving home the point that the Department of Roads and Works should make a beginning with the region of Maluti. One thing I appreciate is that the fellows who are on the machinery will do that grading successfully, but there is no follow-up and they will tell you that they have not got the people to follow up that gravelling. They say there will be no lorry drivers until the Std 6 requirement is done away with. It is not the Std 6 certificate that drives that vehicle - it is the man. (Interjections) Please, Mr Minister, come and have a look at the roads in that region and I think you will bear with us when we ask you to put on an extra team. Possibly then the standard of the roads in that region may be near the standard of other regions. For example, there is a very important road between Mount Fletcher and Mount Frere, but you cannot use that road. The road from there
FRIDAY, 9 APRIL 1976
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were, after amendment, taken as read and confirmed. NOTICES OF BILLS M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I beg to give notice that on Monday the 12th day of April 1976 I propose to move the first reading of a bill to provide for the amendment of the Abuse of Dependence-producing Substances and Rehabilitation Centres Act 1971 in so far as it applies in the Transkei, so as to prohibit the suspension or postponement of a sentence, or a discharge with a caution or reprimand, in respect of persons convicted for dealing in dependenceproducing drugs in contravention of Section 2(a) and (c) of the Act.
NOTICES OF MOTION 35.
Mr N. P. Nkosiyane gave notice to move :—
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to abolish all the Pass Laws including the Influx Control Regulations the migrant labour system etc." 36.
Mr. E. V. Ndamase gave notice to move:-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should consider the desirability of making funds available for the building of a training school at Marubeni Administrative Area, in the Libode district to produce more teachers for the Transkei. " 37.
Mr. T. M. Makaula gave notice to move:-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should be requested to approach all municipalities in the Transkei to provide street lights at black locations under them." 38.
Mr. H. Pamla gave notice to move :-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should communicate with the Republican Government with a view to the installation of an FM tower in Umzimkulu as this particular area receives Zulu programmes only.” BANTU ADMINISTRATION AMENDMENT BILL: THIRD READING M/JUSTICE: Mr Chain and hon members, I move that the Transkeian Bantu Administration Amendment Bill be read a third time.
106.
to Lesotho cannot be used. Get off your office seat one day and have an inspection in loco in the entire ergion, otherwise the people of Maluti will feel they are not part of the Government . I think our seed has fallen on good soil. CHIEFTAINESS M. C. LÉBENYA : Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support the motion. It is essential that these roads should be properly constructed for the following reasons : On rainy days the buses are unable to travel over these roads. It must be clear to you that on rainy days people in Matatiele suffer from starvation because they are unable to get their supplies from the shops . People who require medical attention are unable to get to the doctors because of the state of the roads. I am reminded of the problems encountered by people who are sick. They have to go right round Matatiele to Kokstad in order to get blood for transfusions when necessary, because of the bad state of the roads. Children are delayed in getting to school because of the bad roads and they are eventually expelled from school on this account. The roads in Maluti are the poorest in the whole of the Transkei and we ask that attention should be given to these roads before any other roads in the Transkei . People trying to get home on the Maluti roads have to return as they are unable to reach home on account of the bad roads. You must be aware of one thing --- that people like visiting their relatives and friends, but on account of the bad state of the roads they are unable to visit these people. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, the Opposition on this side of the House wishes to congratulate the hon member, Mrs Lebenya from Mount Fletcher on her maiden speech . She has addressed us on a non-contentious motion and I can assure you she is not open to the barbs and arrows usually fired by the Opposition at the Government. The hon the Minister of Roads and Works wants to know why I specially single her out. Well, she is unfortunately amongst those men who are not sufficiently chivalrous to commend her. (Laughter) Sir, I think this motion has some significance and, whilst the mover has limited himself to these three roads, we have heard him and those who have supported him say that the general state of road communication in the Maluti region is deplorable. M/EDUCATION : It is. MR GUZANA: For that reason the department concerned should exert itself more than in any other effort to see that something positive is done. In the flat areas of the Transkei the heavy rainfalls have reduced roads to almost impassable culverts. One can well imagine in what state the roads are in the Maluti region, whose topography is characterized by steep gradients. MR C. DIKO : And what about Tabankulu? This is not a revival meeting. MR GUZANA : (Laughter) I do feel that the Department of Roads and Works should abandon in the Maluti region road construction which is nothing more than grading the surfaces, throwing soil on to the road and leaving it at that. This is probably one of the deceptive methods by which the Department of Roads and Works projects an apparent concern for road maintenance. There is just one other piece of advice I would like to give the hon members for Maluti à propos these three roads. Arrange as many political meetings as possible for the hon the Minister of Roads and Works to be held in that area, bring the fattest oxen to be slaughtered at those meetings, summon all the people to attend, arrange for the meeting to be held on a wet day, assure him that the road is an all-weather road and don't come to his rescue when he is stranded. (Laughter) This is the only way in which you can drive this into the head of the hon the Minister of Roads and Works that more than special attention is needed with regard to the roads in the Maluti region. Now, there is a request for these three roads to be repaired and brought up to usable standard. The road between Matatiele and Mount Frere through Rock Ford is in point. Travelling from Matatiele to Mount Frere through Rock Ford is a distance equivalent to travelling from Mout Frere to Kokstad, and it is really difficult to understand why people should be put to the trouble and inconvenience of going round via Kokstad when they could easily travel half the distance in half the time direct from Matatiele to Mount Frere and back. The road between Matatiele and Qacha's Nek and that between Matatiele and Ramatsiliso are also important means of communication between the Transkei and Lesotho. When I asked the mover of the motion how far these two places are from the border of the Transkei he said they were 107 .
a considerable distance inland in Lesotho. The Government does not seem even to know what is good for its political pie. What would induce the Lesotho Government to look benevolently on the Transkeian Government and consider amalgamation, other than that there is easy communication between the Transkei and Lesotho? (Laughter) I am sorry if I have let the cat out of the bag, but that is a fact, and I do feel that with the sentiments expressed here relating to an outlet for Lesotho through the Transkei to the sea, this Government had better get moving and repair these roads to entice traffic through the Transkei from Lesotho. There is also political capital to be gained from giving the Maluti region more attention now than ever before. Over the last three years or more there has been manifested a thought of secession by the Sotho-speaking people in the Maluti region. Up to then the Sotho-speaking peoples of Maluti region identified themselves with the Transkei, participating in the old Bunga (the Transkeian Territories: General Council) and the Transkeian Territorial Authority without any complaint whatsoever, because they felt part and parcel of the Transkei. But because they now feel that they have been neglected, that the Transkeian Government is not looking to the north sufficiently, they are beginning to press for the full implementation of ethnic division , and if we were to argue on that score not even Mr Vorster or Mr Botha can argue against their idea of secession on the grounds of nonaffinity with the Xhosa-speaking group. Strictly speaking, in terms of ethnic separation they are entitled to secede. MR C. DIKO: Come to the roads. Leave alone ethnic grouping. MR GUZANA: I have told you this is not a rivival meeting. This Government, therefore, should lean over backwards to accommodate the people in this area which seeks these roads, so that they feel they are part and parcel of development rather than that they are being carried as an unwanted burden in the Transkei. Will the hon the Minister of Roads and Works give us an undertaking that he is going to give special attention to the repair of these roads specified in this motion? Does he realise to what extent he may bring the people of the Transkei together by laying emphasis on this type of service which is causing great discontent in that area? Should this Government fail to give preferential treatment (I say "preferential treatment" deliberately) on this issue, then it may well be blamed if we have civil strife in the Maluti region. The hon the Paramount Chief of Qaukeni shakes his head and say this will not happen. Now, I do feel that the hon paramount chief could very well use his offices to influence his subject, the hon the Minister of Roads and Works , to give emphasis to this request. GOVT MEMBERS : Why? MR GUZANA: If anything, let all those who have influence use it in order to de-fuse the highly emotional situation which has developed in that area. As things are now, even if the hon the Minister of Education seeks to have a school built in these areas he is unable to persuade any contractor to undertake such a job because there are not any good roads for the contractor to get there. Not only is the hon the Minister of Roads and Works handicapping the education programme in that area, but he is crippling the whole political machinery of canvassing this Government. (Laughter) If there was ever any subversion, that was. I do urge strongly that special attention be given to the standardization of these roads and, as listed in the motion, I would give first preference to the road between Matatiele and Mount Frere via Rock Ford. Now, hon members of the governing party must be feeling very happy that I have spoken in this fashion to this motion. I have strongly resisted the temptation to do what the Government does to our motions namely, to amend them needlessly. (Laughter) I could have amended this motion. GOVT MEMBER : How? MR GUZANA: Where you have the road between Matatiele and Mount Frere via Rock Ford I could suggest deleting "between" and put in "from". That is how futile and purposeless some of the amendments which come from the governing side are. (Laughter) We cannot speak too strongly to this matter , Mr Minister of Roads and Works. One gets the impression that
the hon Minister concerned could not care less what is said on this matter. At least we expect the courtesy of attention to our discussions. CHIEF N. SIBI: Mr Chairman and hon members, much has been said on this motion and I see it very much affects us in Maluti region. Not one of the speakers has objected to this motion. It would not be fair for us to keep quiet when everyone is speaking on our behalf, so I am merely commenting. Our roads are bad and we always think we are lost. I am aware of the fact that the hon the Minister of Roads and Works knows what these roads are like. He once travelled that road and it was very difficult for him to reach our place. After that experience we thought he would do something and we were happy that he had had that experience. We are aware that he is in charge of all the roads in the Transkei and he may not be able to expedite this work for us. We are still putting our complaints to the hon Minister and we are asking him to do something for us because we are his children also. The speakers have explained how poor these roads are and, true enough, they are bad indeed. I would urge the department to start off with the road from Matatiele to Mount Frere, because that road has a junction with the tarred road to Kokstad. This road is not a very long road and it would not take much time to repair it. This would be of great assistance to us in reducing the distance we have to travel in returning home from the session . We are still appealing humbly to the hon Minister to do something for us, please. The road from Matatiele to Qacha's Nek is an important road which would be of great help to us if it were repaired. There is a dam built by the Government and that dam would be of assistance in supplying the Matatiele Location if the road were repaired. Sometimes our stock gets lost and is taken to Lesotho and the road from our side is impassable. The police have to follow up our stock and with such bad roads it is impossible for them to do so. I will now make reference to the road from Matatiele to Ramatsiliso. This road has to be used in the same way as the road from Qacha's Nek to Matatiele. People lose their stock and if your stock has been traced to Lesotho you are asked to come and identify it, but with such bad roads it is impossible to get there and so you lose your stock. Now we have to go to court. Sometimes you get to court and you find that after your stock has been recovered you lose it again because it has gone further into Lesotho. We have made so many requests to the hon the Minister of Roads and Works and we feel he must now do something for us. I support this motion and I hope the hon Minister will do something about it. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR P. N. NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support the motion. This is a very good motion because the roads referred to are in a very bad state. There are other roads which have been damaged. The reason why these roads have become so bad is because the Government discontinued the system of employing road labourers. The Government puts its trust in machinery and with the introduction of machinery only one person is employed to work the machine so that that unit fails to perform the necessary requirements of road construction. As the roads have been washed out and eroded by reason of the heavy rain there is not even one person with a spade to go and deal with the damage Before these machines were employed a person would go and fill in the section of the road that had been washed away. There are no labourers to dig up gravel which could be spread on the roads. Besides the roads now mentioned in this motion there are many other roads which have never received any attention although we have introduced motions about them. There is a road from Qokolweni to Mqanduli which is now in a very bad state, and the road from Qokolweni to Jixini is also very bad. CHAIRMAN: Hon members, we are not dealing with those roads. We are dealing with the Maluti region. MR NKOSIYANE: Is it the implication that I will be required to put in another motion dealing with roads when we are at present dealing with a motion on roads? (Laughter) CHAIRMAN: Hon members, please deal with the motion. MR NKOSIYANE: I will now talk on this motion.
With regard to those roads which are in Maluti area leading to Qacha's Nek, immediate attention should be given to them and no time should be wasted. Though I have been told I was not keeping to the motion it stands to reason that roads are all alike and I believe this is brought about by this apartheid question. (Laughter) The reason we are worried about these roads is because of apartheid. I therefore firmly support the motion that the roads already mentioned should receive attention, but other roads should also receive consideration. In order to standardize these roads people should be employed as well as machinery. If there are not sufficient people to do the labour they should come to our area and collect labourers so that these people will be paid. It must not be said there are no labourers there. They should get labourers from anywhere in order that those roads are put right. You can even get people from Mqanduli, because there are people who want work there, but also in Pondoland you could get people who desire employment. They should all be collected to put the roads in order. People as well as machinery should be brought into operation. In fine, Sir, I support this motion. P/CHIEF M. B. SIGCAU: Mr Chairman and hon members, I also stand up to support this motion. It is important that the roads be repaired. In each district there are people who are responsible for the repair of roads. I wonder if there are no such people in the Maluti region who are responsible for the maintenance of roads? I do not know whether you have the idea that the hon Minister should go and drive that grader himself. There are people responsible for that area and there are responsible officers who should see to it that the roads are properly maintained. It should be the same in every area. The rule of the people here is uniform. I did not like the idea expressed by one hon member that the Maluti people were thinking of secession because they feel neglected. I was disappointed at that statement by a person I love. MR K. M. GUZANA: Jongilizwe! P/CHIEF SIGCAU: You have misled the people too. You want people to get out of the Transkei. Are you a Transkeian yourself? I do not doubt you are a Transkeian, but why do you speak in this strain? You think the hon the Chief Minister must release these people to join another country. Instead of stopping people from seceding you are encouraging them. There is no section which is neglected in the Transkei. They enjoy a tarred road there but in Pondoland there is not a single tarred road. I am not going to say I am neglected because there is no tarred road there. I say this road must be put into proper repair, and let it carry no strings. Yes, we are men and there are intelligent people here who might be scared to say they no longer feel like staying in the Transkei. We don't want these nice-looking ladies like the lady you so admired this morning to leave the Transkei. (Laughter) I did not realise that you would so admire a lady, because you are a local preacher. (Laughter) But I feel the roads mentioned should be attended to. We are discussing this motion ... MR GUZANA: You appear to be jealous. I wonder why? P/CHIEF SIGCAU: Jealous of whom? MR GUZANA: Don't worry. I am your son-in-law. P/CHIEF SIGCAU: Yes, but you must not drive people out of the Transkei. My dear people, please don't listen to what has been said. We want this road to be repaired. We love you in the Transkei and I again say these suggested roads need attention, and other roads as well. There is nothing wrong with the hon Minister. I am sure the Minister also wants these roads repaired, and now you worry the hon Minister by saying these things which affect him. How can the roads be in good condition after the heavy rains of this year? The rivers are all in flood and we cannot even reach our homes. I do not think anybody can be blamed this year for the bad state of the roads. Even the people in the administrative areas should assist in maintaining the roads. The Matatiele people should also get moving and use their graders. I am in line with this motion. It is a simple motion but the discussion is taking us the whole day. This House will only close in June at this rate. MR K. T. MBOBO: Mr Chairman and hon members, I am quite sure this motion has been well discussed 108.
and there is little more to say about it now. I believe that the Maluti region was not actually neglected because of tribal reasons. It was just that some of the hon members were putting it that way, but the roads have been neglected, in fact. One could understand it for the first five years because most of the members then were urban dwellers and they found difficulty in meeting their constituents and attending meetings in that area. So for the first five years it was a different matter. I am quite aware of the difficulties of travelling through the district. It is worse when one has been away and then goes back again. Those people in Mount Fletcher and Matatiele have knocked continually at the door of the Government to tell them what is needed in that part of the country. I am not criticizing, because I realise it was something which was beyond their power to do. They could not leave their offices to find out what the position is in that region and so the region had to suffer. The second five years was better because by the time it ended one of our members was actually in the Government. The hon member, Mr Zibi, should have put it in a better way. I hope, therefore, that the hon Minister will see to it that the lost time will be made up. They were not neglected because they were Hlubis and Sothos in that area, but just because there was something wrong somewhere.
premises, therefore, I shall call upon the mover to reply. MR M. P. LUDIDI : Mr Chairman and hon members, now that the motion has been debated and well canvassed and the time to reply has come, I take this opportunity to thank those hon members who took the opportunity to contribute to it. I am not going to comment on each and every statement the hon members made. There are a few points, however, on which I would like to comment. Sometimes when you are a member of a region and there are some thorny questions in your region you often feel inclined to leave them alone because they are so thorny, but when somebody else from another consituency touches on the point then you feel this is an opportunity. There is one point which the hon the Leader of the Opposition raised and this is what he described as a manifestation of a desire for secession. What has been mentioned by the hon the Leader of the Opposition is an important matter. It is important that such affairs receive priority attention from the Government. What has been mentioned by the hon the Leader of the Opposi tion is quite true, because there is this spirit of wishing to secede to Basotho Qwaqwa. You go to the region and you speak to the people individually - that is, the people who complain and the reply you get from these people is the expression of the idea that the Transkeian Government is one-sided, discriminating against them and favours the Tembus. I have heard the people say that, and it is the Government which has to put this matter right. On the question of roads, the Maluti region is very rugged and it is quite clear that the roads there are more affected by floods than the roads in level country. The Government should see to it that the Government gives priority attention to those people so that when they complain the Government is in a position to tell them their complaints are not reasonable. I do not want to say, and I do not mean to say, that the Sotho-speaking people complain because they feel neglected . I cannot say the Sothos have better grounds for complaint, because some of the roads in the Sotho-speaking area are better than the roads in other areas. I do not want to invite argument, but this is quite clear. I appeal to the hon Minister that the Maluti roads should be attended to. We have called meetings of the people who have even invited the hon Minister and placed this matter before him. We called another meeting last year and we invited the hon Minister and even asked him to make a note of our request and submit it to the Cabinet. Our people say we are in the ruling party and they ask us what we are doing. We are almost afraid to go to the people. MR K. M. GUZANA: Join the Opposition. (Laughter) MR LUDIDI : Don't spoil this discussion, hon member. Mr Chairman, one would wonder what should have been the situation in Maluti if the so-called Qwaqwa group consulted the Xhosa-speaking people in Maluti before they made it public. One wondered whether some of the Xhosa-speaking people would go with them. If the whole thing was not unilateral I think these Sotho-speaking people would influece even the Xhosa-speaking people of Maluti. I don't mean we must focus our attention on the Qwaqwa business. The point is the Transkeian Government should help the people of Maluti so that they should not be affected by adverse propaganda- this propaganda on things which mislead them. There is another point mentioned by the hon the Leader of the Opposition. He said those roads from Lesotho are an outlet for Lesotho leading to the coast. It is clear that the Government of Lesotho would not prefer to use the road through Thaba Nchu to Bloemfontein when there is a shorter road through the Transkei. The improvement of these roads will therefore better the relations between the two Governments. I want to repeat this. The standardization of those roads between the Transkei and Lesotho will promote good relations between our respective Governments. I think the Government of Lesotho does not look with favour on our forthcoming independence. I say this because of certain utterances by the Lesotho ambassador at the United Nations. The Government should therefore sympathize with us and meet us halfway in our request for roads in the Maluti area. As
MR K. M. GUZANA: What was wrong? MR MBOBO: The idea of secession is no answer to that problem. It would be similar to Gcalekaland having many complaints and then deciding to join the Ngqikas across the Kei River because that is where they belong. I think I have answered that point made by the hon the Leader of the Opposition . Secession is no answer to the problem but a network of roads should be made along the border between the Transkei and Lesotho. They should be made immediately and should be travellable in all weathers at all times. This is for strategic reasons. Even when a snake dies the skeleton remains a danger. The retreating tide of white imperialism has left in its departure ideas which are detrimental to our country on those orders. Secession is not won by bad roads but is an idea implanted by somebody into the minds of the people of that region. They have been coming to this parliament for a couple of years now and have never brought such complaints, So why this complaint now? There is an idea which has been implanted from somewhere and it is tending to confuse the people of Maluti region. That is precisely why I say those roads must be made safe to travel on in all weathers, because certain people can be used as tools to cause disorder and without transport nothing can be done. Referring to stock thieving, I will state it is not only thieving which takes place from across the border. There are also raids which take place. If you discover a man driving your stock away, that man will not try to escape. If you discover a man driving away your stock, you approach him and instead of running away he becomes aggressive, and then you say he has not come to steal but to seize. You appeal to the police and they cannot come to your assistance and so the stock disappears. If there were statistics to show how much of our stock has been driven away across the border you would be very surprised. Even if the number recovered from Lesotho were known I think the hon Minister would shut the gates. Well, I think this motion has been well canvassed so I will not be long, but I think the hon the Minister of Roads and Works is aware of the importance of good roads in that part of the country. I think the roads leading straight to Lesotho are quite essential, as the hon the Leader of the Opposition has mentioned. I am quite aware that there is a certain district on the other side of the Transkei which feels it cannot live on its own and I think it would be very advisable for it to join the Transkei. That district is Witzieshoek. It has given us trouble in that area and it will continue to do 30 until something is done, and it will be done, definitely. MR GUZANA: What is it that has to be done? MR MBOBO: It is that which should be done, and it will be done. (Laughter) Well, I think I would rather leave that matter, Mr Chairman, but I support the motion. CHAIRMAN : This non-contentious motion I think has been thoroughly canvassed by the House. In the 109.
ence. These people now who are in Natal geographically wish to come back and become Transkeians. They are our relatives. We are always with them in our daily existence. In the northern part of Umzimkulu district they have now adopted the Ingwangwane as the boundary river, abandoning the Umzimkulu River as the boundary. We have a common grazing area and when we wish to impound these cattle it is pointed out that it is no trespass because these cattle have not moved from one area to a different area. Now when these people steal our stock and we go to the police they say we must appeal to the Natal police station across the river. They point to a place in Natal, although these people are related to us. Mr Chairman, to add to this the present Secretary for Health, Dr Arbuckle, was superintendent of Santica Hospital. He was the first doctor to open up clinics in the northern parts of Umzimkulu area. He was the one who appealed to us to allow him to have clinics all over the area. He was of the opinion that Santica Hospital, being on this side of the Umzimkulu River, was in Transkeian territory. I appeal to our Government to negotiate with the Republican Government and to persuade them to grant this request. The chiefs this side of the Umzimkulu River also expressed a willingness to become part of the Transkei and I would go further to say even their people. One of these chiefs is a brother to the late Chief Msingapantsi. He is a brother. One of them is my son, the Ntlangwini chief. I will not be long, Mr Chairman, because I do not imagine this House will oppose a motion of this kind. I will now allow my hon friends to discuss this motion. CHIEF P. JOZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, the mover has already stated that this is an important motion and should have been brought to the House long ago by the members from Umzimkulu, but because of our friendship for our relatives who are on Natal soil we deemed it was not right to introduce it. I heard the Minister of Labour when he said he was saying good-bye to us because he would not come here again. In turn we say to Natal: Good-bye - we are going to take up independence. Those things which are Caesar's should be rendered unto Caesar. We want this boundary between Transkei and Natal Province to be clearly defined. I am sure that our friends like Chief Gatsha Buthelezi will be touched by this motion. He must just give it up. All along he has been enjoying the fruits of our soil. The boundary should be clearly defined as the Umzimkulu River. We were cheated a long time ago by certain people who were supposed to be magistrates - Strachan and another man. Even though I tried to trace their history I do not know which Government granted them such authority and made them magistrates. This area which we claim is in the Harding district was under the magistrate whom we know as Madonela. When he found that people were becoming rich at Umzimkulu he started making farm allotments in that area and forgot about adjusting the boundary. He said this area should be so allotted that we remained here and the other portion was said to fall in Natal province. This man was clever enough. He said: Don't worry about this because all this land belongs to you. Then they made the Umzimkulu River the boundary. These magistrates just left us. This man Strachan was so rich that he had a lot of farms. Those farms are now Trust farms and they were taken over by the Republican Government and handed over to the Transkeian Government. Strachan was so rich and because of his wealth he married his daughter to one James Cole. Now this man became a magistrate. Again our land was taken and given to the Roman Catholic Church and these people became rich and forgot about the boundary. We now request that the boundary should be clearly defined and readjusted. If you travel through Fodo's administrative area I have my younger brother there (Mgayi) and the boundary is the fence. Ruffians destroyed this fence and we have nothing to say because in fact he is our relative. When you come to Umtata and get to Weza, where have you ever seen such a boundary? That land belongs to Faku but it is stated that the land belongs to Natal. You will find that the river generally meanders. Just across the river there are places we would like to get and I am very sorry my friend, Chief D. D. P. Ndamase, is not here today, but because the Umzimkulu River is a boundary we cannot go further.
I have said, I thank all those hon members who have contributed to this discussion. Question put and motion carried unanimously. AFTERNNON SESSION MR K. G. NOTA: Mr Chairman and hon members , I crave your indulgence that we again shelve Motion No 19 until next week. Our negotiations are not yet through. Agreed to. MR NOTA: Mr Chairman, in view of the fact that the mover of the next motion is not in, I request the Chairman to allow us to shelve this motion until next week and that we proceed with Motion No 22. Agreed to. EXTENSION OF TRANSKEI BOUNDARY TO UMZIMKULU RIVER MR L. S. BALENI: Mr Chairman and hon members, I request the Chair to allow me to move an amendment to Motion 22, to delete all the words after the word "boundary" and substitute the following words: "Between the Transkei and Natal". The motion as amended now reads:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of negotiating with the Republican Government prior to independence with a view to declaring the Umzimkulu River as a boundary between the Transkei and Natal." CHIEF P. JOZANA:. I second, Mr Chairman. MR BALENI: Mr Chairman and hon members, I am sorry I have to speak on this very important motion when this House is nearly empty, but in order to give those present my reasons for this motion I am going to emphasize my points. First of all, Mr Chairman, I want to quote from history in connection with this particular river, the Umzimkulu boundary. I quote, Mr Chairman: "During the year 1844 Sir Peregrine Maitland, who was the Lieutenant-Governor of the Cape, entered into a treaty of amity with Paramount Chief Faku. Paramount Chief Faku was bound by the treaty to observe a number of conditions. Mr Maitland again recognized Faku as the paramount chief of a large tract of land stretching from the Drakensberg to the sea and the Umtata and Umzimkulu Rivers. This treaty is the key to the latter history of Pondoland as well as No Man's Land and Griqualand East. One of the treaty conditions stipulated that Faku had to surrender stolen cattle and other property brought into his area or else pay compensation. This condition created problems for him. Cattle were stolen from farmers in Natal, presumably by Bushmen, and were driven into No Man's Land. The Natal Government thereupon asked Paramount Chief Faku to surrender both the cattle and the thieves. This Faku could not do because he had no control over No Man's Land. In this area Faku was isolated by Mpondomisi, Baca and Xesibe. Faku was therefore unable to deliver these cattle and thieves, but consequently paid the compensation." I want this House to observe what has been said by this history, that these stolen cattle were stolen from the farmers in Natal. In addition, Mr Chairman, I am a chief and there was an event in 1857. In Northern Natal at a place called Umkomaas there was a quarrel between my ancestor, Chief Sidoyi, and one Memela and there was war between the two sections. Chief Memela was killed in those disturbances. After this reached the ears of the Government emissaries were sent to arrest Chief Sidoyi and have him punished. When Chief Sidoyi heard he was about to be arrested he crossed the Umzimkulu River to come and hide with his brother, Chief Dhlamini. At the time Chief Dhlamini was domiciled in an area in the Harding district. This chief was a grandparent of the hon member, Chief Msudukeni, who is in this House. When the Government heard that Chief Sidoyi had crossed the Umzimkulu River they declared he had crossed the boundary between the Cape and Natal. I have explained that Sir Peregrine Maitland had given out the boundary bounding King Faku allowed the land to stretch as far as the Drakensberg. If Chief Sidoyi crossed the Umzimkulu River that was irrelevant to the issue. Mr Chairman, I call upon the Government to have this boundary rectified before independ110.
people who live in that area find themselves in difficulties, though those are people who are more or less related. If we should get that other area those people will come and settle down and follow their own customs so that everything goes right. These people will go up and down and down and up (Laughter) putting their affairs in correct order and it will not be said one of them lives in Zululand and the other in Transkei. The place known as Port Shepstone should be brought into the Transkei and should be under the chiefs of the Transkei. It is their inheritance. Let us forget about the mistakes made by the then authorities. Today we should consult because it is well known to whom the land first belonged. I have heard those people who put the blame on someone called Madonela. They did things on their own because they did not regard the black people as people. They did not think about the change of the times, but times have changed. This is another term now and the land should revert to its original owners. We expect they will also lay their own plans. If they refuse to hand over the land I will request that we take this to the Supreme Court because all claims are usually settled in the Supreme Court. If an appeal is lodged all the people of this country will assist, but there should be no war. It should be a friendly consulation. No-one wants to kill people, particularly over land, and it is quite obvious that that area belongs to the Transkei. You may mark the fact that all these chiefs come from the same stem. That land is divided by means of a fence and what the Creator made has been forgotten : The natural boundary is the river. We hear it said that the Kei River is a boundary. It is the Europeans who keep on moving the boundaries. In fine , hon members, this motion should receive our support. The people who brought this matter to the House know the conditions in Umzimkulu. If you go there and make investigations they will tell you even when that fence was put up. The reason why they did this was because they were greedy and saw some fertile land in Port Shepstone. They saw the fertility of that soil where bananas grow well, and they were tempted to fence it in so that the owners should never know where the boundaries were. I accordingly support the motion. The mover has brought something worthwhile. This land should be given back to the Transkei. CHIEF D. D. MLINDAZWE: Mr Chairman and hon members, in supporting this motion I wish to preface my remarks as follows : Our claim to this land is not based entirely on blood relations and (I want to say) the people who have been estranged from us, because hon members might take this as the very basis of the motion. The basis of the motion is on the original boundary and the question of blood relationship is subsidiary. Secondly, this motion aims at the handing back to us of those lands which orginally belonged to the Transkei, especially when we know that the area complained of is peopled by our own people and at independence our people will be excluded from us. I do not want to detract from anything said by the mover, but I want to add this: In the first place the views of the people occupying this area which is claimed are the views which have been expressed in the House today. They know that traditionally the Umzimkulu River was the boundary but because of the machinations of the then authorities things are as they are now. In this House we are not expressing our views only, but the views of the people who occupy the territory in question, knowing that they are Transkeians. That is why we say that the Republican Government must rectify that error. At this stage I can be as explicit as white against a black background because the thing lies with the Commissioner-General. I think at the inauguration of Bantu Authorities many tribes sent delegations to the office of the CommissionerGeneral. At that time Mr Abraham occupied that position. The aim of these delegations were that they should not be excluded from the Transkei when the various regions were being formed. If the present Commissioner-General says he does not remember that, his files will remind him. I do not understand why we should argue and discuss here when people are present who are responsible for the present state of affairs. When our people go out the Zulus themselves call them Pondos and they are right because those people are Pondos. When our people go to work centres to seek employ-
Why should we suffer because of this boundary? It takes away our land and places it under Natal. As the boundary is the river we should also enjoy the fruits of the land as much as they do. A long period has now elapsed and I do not know what to say at this stage. The areas I refer to are Port Shepstone and Harding. Even Umtamvuna is our land. It belongs to the' Transkei. That is only a name given to that area. There was no law to say that the Umzimkulu was the boundary. I repeat, Umzimkulu is the boundary. You must listen. Mr Chairman and hon members , this motion is very important and we should agree unanimously over it. I have already told you about the Trust farms. We are building on those farms at present. (Interjections) If you want a land you will get it. In Umzimkulu we have sufficient fatms which were acquired for us by this Transkeian Government. Mr Chairman, I am being disturbed by the hon the Leader of the Opposition . I say you must not worry about him because he is an attorney and is always defending lawbreakers. I do not need the services of an attorney. I am claiming what is mine. Mr Chairman, I request that this House should sympathize with us, particularly as we are settled on the boundaries. If I had given you some stock to keep and a disease attacks our stock I will go and fetch mine. Now a disease has come and that disease is independence. (Laughter) Now we want what is ours to be given back to us. If you belong to Natal you must take up your coat and go to the labour centres to work for your own living. However, the people from Natal have been granted Trust farms by the Republican Government and I therefore cannot see any reason for them to complain. We must get back our land. I say what is ours should be given back to us. I have every hope that the hon the Leader of the Opposition is going to support me, because he will also enjoy getting more land. Mr Chairman, I am very thankful to the House. M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, may I crave your indulgence to allow me to say something. Agreed to. The debate was adjourned. M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman and hon members , over the days I have noticed that hon members do not come to this House after lunch. I have made a rough count and have found that out of a House of over 110 only about 50 are in this House. It was the same thing yesterday. Perhaps they see the Ministers constantly going in and out of the House. I have done the same thing. We are very busy in our offices with interviews and also with the preparation of our policy speaches for the Budget which is coming soon. Even now my office is full of people but when I sent a message to one of the Ministers I found there was no Minister present and so I had to come in. I suggest, Mr Chairman, that you use your discretion and call the roll in the afternoon. The debate on the extension of the Transkei boundary to the Umzimkulu River was resumed. MR P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand in support of this motion from the hon member for Umzimkulu. It is time for everyone to claim what is their right, particularly as we are going to be independent. No-one knows whether after independence anyone will get what is his. I have been to Umzimkulu and I saw what has been said by these hon members. It is true. That land belongs to their great-grandparents. The question of the boundary is that after each generation the boundaries are always revised and new boundaries drawn. I think there are some people who would like to get the areas on the Natal side. That was the practice of the magistrate . If there was a certain chief whom they wished to honour they usually took land belonging to another chief and gave it to the chief who was favoured by them. We have always taken it that the boundary between Transkei and Natal was the Umzimkulu , Others said it was Umtamvuna. Now when matters have reached this stage we say our Government should consult with the Natal authorities so that we should get our rights. Peaceful negotiations must be carried out, and when this land has been given to us those fences should be removed. It is not quite clear whether there are in fact fences, but if there are any they should be removed. This makes it clear that all this was done by the magistrates. I then appeal to this whole House, and I am included in that, that we should agree because 111.
as your superior. Mr Chairman, this motion is not clear. You know our claim; you know our boundaries; you know the land which belongs to the black people used to be described as from Cape to Cario. If you are in Holland that land belongs to the Hollanders. If you are in America that land belongs to the Americans. The question of boundaries about which you are clamouring is a painful matter for it carries no weight. We have been telling the Republican Government now for a long time that this land is ours and we should share it equally. There should be no mention of particular boundaries. CHAIRMAN: Will the hon member please confine himself to the motion. CHIEF MABANDLA: Mr Chairman, I am really dealing with the motion. When you leave this place you are usually told you have left the Transkei or are entering the Transkei. I do not know how that is arrived at. That is why I say, although it would appear that the Chairman does not understand me, that this motion is not clear. What worries you is this independence. Even now you say this should be put right as you are now preparing for the forthcoming independence. One hon member who was talking said that this independence is like a stock disease which is destructive of cattle. (Laughter) Mr Chairman, this question of the boundary is one which should be discussed between these two nations. Now you say you are grown up why do you always say you are going to request a certain Government? Can't you go and hold discussions with Chief Gatsha Buthelezi one Chief Minister to go and consult with another Chief Minister? Now you are going to appeal to strangers to tell you where your boundaries are. Don't you know when these people arrived in this country? When did you arrive in this country? You are the aborigines of this country. You were born here and yet you will go and ask strangers for your boundaries. This is a sad situation. This motion is injurious to us. I do not want to be lengthy, hon members. I will resume my seat but you must know who you are in this country. You must preserve your dignity. Don't just appeal to a white Government. MR W. M. MADIKIZELA: Mr Chairman and hon members, this is a most important motion because it requires to transfer people who are settled in another place to their own tribe. The people were placed there. They did not place themselves there but were placed there by a foreigner. We are now discussing people we know are settled in an area that we know. There are events we know about which are connected with these people and with the area they are occupying. Those things show amongst those people. In the Umzimkulu district it has been discussed what the position is on the northern side of Umzimkulu River. I am now going to discuss the area from a certain point there to the the area from Ingeli to the sea, which some sea people will know. To take the known boundary today, that is the Umtamvuna which runs from Ingeli to the sea. Formerly Umzimkulu was the recognized boundary and the head of the area between the Umzimkulu and Umtamvuna Rivers was Paramount Chief Faku. Faku was the head of that area and that was Faku's territory. Even when Tshaka attacked the Pondos the boundary was restored to the Umzimkulu River and the tribes which had fled from Tshaka went back to that territory and Tshaka did not say anything. When subjects of one king desert to another king that usually causes friction. Some people of Faku who are today under the Faku king are now in Natal territorially and some of them in Faku's country. I will now discuss the area which has no natural boundaries and which has been cut up by artificial boundaries. The Jali tribe is there and they have been split into two sections, one on the Natal side and the other in Pondoland. Those are two brothers who enjoy the same customs, traditions and feasts. There is another tribe, the Abetshawu, with one section in the so-called Natal Province and the other in the Transkei. Another tribe is the Maci, which is a younger brother to the Xolo tribe. It has been mentioned that the Xolo tribe once settled in the area near Qaukeni and the paramount chief now has Xolo subjects with him, though the other Xolo are somewhere near Harding. Now, that is evidenced by what the last speaker said. The Cele tribe is the next tribe I will mention. In this area we are discussing near Izingolweni a section of the Cele tribe is in Pondoland proper near the para-
ment they are told they must wait until somebody comes. They are nobodies because in those areas the first preference is for the Zulus, but those people who are nominally Zulu in that area are given the last chance. I say the people occupying that area between Umzimkulu and Umtamvuna are the people we are discussing today. Amongst those tribes are Ntlangwini people, the head of whom is Chief Mgayi Dhlamini who is a younger brother to one of the chiefs sitting in this House today. These chiefs are separated by a wire fence as a boundary. When I say these are brother and younger brother I do not say it is because they belong to the same ancestral Dhlamini, but because they are born of one man. Imagine when one brother is in Natal and the senior brother is somewhat is the position? These people are where else separated by a wire fence which will break down any day. I shall pass on, Mr Chairman, and mention a Pondo tribe - the Maci Pondo tribe. Today the head of that tribe is Chief Sigidi Maci, the son of the late Chief Maci. These are Pondos with Pondo traditions. Maci was the original head of this tribe and he married a king's daughter. I will now refer you to the Xolo tribe - the tribe that recognized Faku as their head. Even during the times of Tshaka their king fetched this tribe when they had fled as far as Cofimvaba and established them at their original place and there established also their chieftainship. Today the head of the tribe is Chief Sixolo and I think he is one the Minister of Roads of the Ministers that side and Works. This tribe left the area and settled at an area immediately on the other side of Mkambati. The reason was that a certain tax was introduced in Natal which did not exist in this area. The then Chief Xolo refused to pay a tax he had not been informed about by his King Faku. That is how he fell out with the white authorities. He left that area and settled in an area immediately on the other side of Mkambati. But the people were used to their old area so gradually they went back one by one to their original area, until he was left alone and even though he did not go back his son went back. He died in the Bizana area and was buried at Ntsikeni. I say we are not requesting the Zulu Government to do anything for us. We are addressing ourselves to the Republican Government. From Port Shepstone right down the land belongs to us. The homeland Governments do not understand this. It is the Republican Government who is in the know. We say it is the Republican Government, which is responsible for that area today not forming part of the Transkei, which must put this right. I have mentioned the men who approached the Commissioner-General. They should not delay matters. If the files on that delegation are still there he must pass them on to Pretoria. We are not addressing ourselves to anybody else but the Commissioner-General and the Republican Government. Mr Chairman, I support the motion. CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I wish to say something in connection with this motion. It is clear that we are fighting over a meatless bone. For a long time we have insisted that the whole of South Africa belongs to us. You alone fight over boundaries. The white Republican Government did this deliberately to place you apart. When you hear people talking about boundaries this question worries a lot of people. Even where fencing has been carried out they did not like it. It is the aim of the white people to set people fighting one against the other so that they can rule the people completely. Now you are approaching a black person who occupies land and you want to take it away from him and you are asking a stranger to come and remove that land from him. Our land has been grabbed by the Republican Government which has taken 87 % of the country. The land alloted to you is only 13% and you are disputing over this land. Mr Chairman, we have been telling you the correct thing to do. However, I am going to support this motion although I do not feel quite happy in doing so. This reminds me that the part of the country you say is yours belongs to all the African people. It is a standing policy of the white people to divide and rule so that each person claims his ethnic group. I will go further to say that the white people have divided you with a piece of paper. That is how they use their policy of ruling you. Even today when you stay with a white person you always regard him
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EXTENSION OF TRANSKEI BOUNDARY TO UMZIMKULU RIVER
mount chief's place. The AmaNzimakwe, related to the tribes I have mentioned, is also one of the tribes affected. That tribe is still settled across there. The Betshawu are also affected and after Tshaka's wars the Betshawu tribe went and settled in an area near Izingolweni. At the time one of Faku's daughters had been married into the Betshawu tribe and when there were clashes there Faku fetched the Betshawu tribe and settled them near. No chief, no king, will go and take people unless those people belong to him. The AmaNyuswa are another tribe there who are also affected. Those people are now in an area towards Port Shepstone. The Xolos are lower down near the sea. Those farms there are new, from just north of Harding to the sea. You will see signs of old homesteads there where these people were settled before this became private land. There is no dispute; there is no doubt. These people were always under Faku. Beyond Umzimkulu are other tribes who are not related to the tribes I have mentioned this side. All the tribes that side are Zulu in their relations and the tribes here are Pondo. There is a common Pondo relationship. These tribes are all there as I have described. The AmaNyuswa and AmaNtshangase all those are Faku's people without doubt. The old people there still say that that area is under Natal but it is Faku territory. Even the farms there are new, as late as 1884. Even the townships or villages are recent. I say that the recognized boundary of that territory of old was the Umzimkulu River, then the boundary continues and joins the boundary described here. I mention all this to show that these things are what they are. The white man is comparatively new there and the new boundaries are of his creation. I will not say anything about the placing of these boundaries because this was something which was done without anybody's knowledge or permission. For instance, at the outbreak of a certain cattle disease there a fence was put up and our cattle were not allowed to go to the other side to infect European cattle. What we say is that the territory is Pondo territory and what establishes that for a fact is that the people there are Pondos. Somebody will then ask what should be done about it. I say negotiations will have to be started but the negotiations must be friendly and amicable and ultimately we will arrive at the truth. The boundary that side towards Harding is not a straightforward boundary and there it is a manifestation of the relations between the old Chiefs Tshaka and Faku. I support this motion strongly. When you know something you must say it. You are not going to say somebody made a mistake. You have got to speak the truth and expose things. That is why we say this Government should negotiate with the Republican Government. If we now do nothing, things will remain as they are. In the Bible it is stated that God helps those who help themselves. The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 12 April 1976.
The debate was resumed. CHAIRMAN: Hon members, I had a feeling that this motion was thoroughly canvassed when the House adjourned on Friday, so I will call upon the mover of the motion to respond. MR L. S. BALENI : Mr Chairman and hon members, this motion is so self-explanatory that it is as white against a black background. I thank all the hon members who have taken part in this discussion, explaining to this House almost everything in connection with the Umzimkulu River as a boundary. We wish our Government to negotiate with the Republican Government with a view to declaring the Umzimkulu River the boundary between Transkei and Natal and we wish those negotiations to take place before independence. I will now refer to the remarks made by the hon Chief G. M. Mabandla who tried to detract from this motion by saying that it was expressing nothing. He even went on to ask why we did not claim the whole of South Africa. I say to this House that he was out of line and he was misleading the whole Republic. As early as 1884 this land was declared Faku's land and the boundary was the Umzimkulu River in its entirety - that is, from the Drakensberg Mountains to the sea. We cannot explain the tricks and machinations of the white people because they wanted that land which they now call Natal. I say that white people who are no more, African people who are no more, knew that the Umzimkulu River was the true boundary between the two territories. Umzimkulu will remain the boundary until we go to the next world. Before I sit down, Mr Chairman, I am appealing to this House that the Transkeian Government must request the Republican Government to stop those East Griqualand farmers who want to get into this area and I want to appeal particularly to the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development, Mr M. C. Botha, to stop the idea of these white farmers who want to highjack East Griqualand and join Natal, because the Umzimkulu River is the boundary between Transvaal and Natal and he must do this peacefully. I repeat, Mr Chairman, he must do it peacefully. They have got the wrong ideas and they are going to create confusion which is going to result in unrest between the Transkei and those white farmers. At any rate, I am appealing to the two Governments that this must be done peacefully before independence. I have already pointed out that in this House we are one as far as this motion is concerned. I noted that the hon the Leader of the Opposition has been very quiet during the discussion on this motion. I do not want to be lengthy and confuse matters, but I thank even those hon chiefs who explained the boundary of Bizana, especially the hon Chief Jozana and Mr Madikizela, who spoke intelligibly on this motion. Some one just spoke because he wanted to listen to his own voice. I have already appealed to the House to pass this motion unanimously and tomorrow morning negotiations must start between our Government and the Republican Government. MR K. M. GUZANA: On a matter of explanation, Mr Chairman, I think I am entitled to say one or two things. M/AGRICULTURE: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, I think it is most improper that after the hon member has wound up that a member can stand up to address the House. MR GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, the rules give me the right and the privilege to speak on a matter of explanation and this is so when the hon member who spoke in reply to this motion sought to make inference about my silence inferences which favour him and therefore give me the right to explain the position. CHAIRMAN: Hon members, I hold there is no necessity for the hon the Leader of the Opposition to make a reply after the mover of the motion had finished speaking. I now put the question, Motion put and carried. CHAIRMAN: I see the mover of Motion No. 19 is not present. M/HEALTH: Mr Chairman, I am informed that this motion has been withdrawn, but in view of the
MONDAY, 12 APRIL 1976 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
ABUSE OF DEPENDENCE-PRODUCING SUBSTANCES AND REHABILITATION CENTRES AMENDMENT BILL : FIRST READING CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon members, in the absence of the hon the Minister of Justice I lay upon the table a copy of the Transkeian Abuse of Dependence-producing Substances and Rehabilitation Centres Amendment Bill and I move that the bill be read a first time. M/HEALTH: I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. The bill was read a first time. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, the second reading of this bill will be on Tuesday, 13 April, or so soon thereafter.
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and we are here now forced to look at the method of farming at present practised by the Transkeian farmers. Once we look at it it will become very clear to us that State planning is necessary. It will become clear that the responsibility of preserving people's land and of stepping up productivity by directing and encouraging the development of farming rests on the shoulders of the Government. In the Transkei State planning is more than ever before needed, because in the first place agriculture is the mainstay of the African economy. The wellbeing and even the lives of hundreds of millions of peasants and tribal farmers, of workers in commerce and industry, depends on the nature of agricultural production. Exports of farm products have the prospect of being the principal source of foreign exchange for the Transkei. African agriculture is the most backward in Southern Africa and its productivity is very low. Thus an individual engaged in farming in the Transkei tribal areas feeds on the average probably one to two people by the products of his labour. The agrarian structure in a large majority of tribal areas is characterized by a diversified complex of types of land ownership and tenure, and this hinders economic progress. Thus the State has to play a most important rôle in raising the yield of agricultural products, especially since the rehabilitation scheme does not affect the methods of the indigenous population to any great extent except, of course, in Qamata irrigation scheme area, as well as in Malenge. The prospects of individual initiative in mechanizing agriculture are limited and there are a number of social barriers and taboos hampering its successful development. In a majority of cases the African farmer is a traditional beer-drinker who wastes precious time next to his kraal, sitting in the sunshine from sunrise to sunset. (Laughter) In the meantime the arable land lies fallow until the next ploughing season while another percentage of tribal farmers spend most of their time in the urban areas in industry and commerce and they only come back during the ploughing season. The African farmer gathers his harvest in June or July and hardly three months after harvest his supply of harvest gives out and he is forced to go to the shop of Boss Peter or Boss Jones. This means he did not produce enough to feed even his very family. This state of affairs should not be allowed to develop into the farms to be transferred after independence. In other words, this motion seeks to prevent this kind of economic malpractice. The Government should be sanctioned to take precautionary measures. Now, before I come to the matter of State planning I wish to dispose of the first issue- - the granting of farms to paramount chiefs. The motion says the Government should grant each paramount chief a farm as his private property. The question of whether the paramount chiefs will be productive or not is beside the point. I am concerned with the act whereby the Government acknowledges the status of and influential and significant rôle that our paramount chiefs played in our long and nonviolent struggle for - independence. The paramount chiefs the people who sat in the old are the pioneers Bunga and resolved on a policy the realities of which today are even admitted at the United Nations. Now, Mr Chairman, some hon members will argue that the paramount chiefs have farms already. That cannot be held as an argument against my proposition. The farms now occupied by the paramount chiefs are not their personal property. Those farms are generally called "royal" farms or family farms. The closest parallel to them is that of a minister's residence in a church parish. We all know that a minister of religion occupies the mission residence in the parish as long as he is in the service of the denomination concerned. The day he is excommunicated, as is the case with the Roman Catholic Church, or is suspended from the ministry as in common in the Methodist Church he is ejected from the house. MR K. M. GUZANA: You had better go and read your rules of discipline. You are making erroneous statements now. MR LUDIDI: I am a member of the Church too. Perhaps to us politicians a more homely analogy is that of a Wilson or a Callaghan who will remain at No. 10, Downing Street, as long as he is Prime Minister of the British nation. Legally speaking, the paramount chiefs occupy those farms now in their disposal
fact that the mover is not here I would that it be postponed until he comes in, when he can clarify the position. Agreed to. GRANT OF TRUST FARMS TO PARAMOUNT CHIEFS AND OTHERS MR M. P. LUDIDI: Mr Chairman and hon members, I move as follows :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of settling the Trust Farms to be transferred to the Transkei Government in terms of the 1936 Land and Trust Act in such a way that the economic value thereof will not deteriorate and with that aim in view consider: making grants of personal farms to the paramount chiefs in land adjoining their areas of jurisdiction ; and granting farms and/or small farms to prospective farmers who have rendered faithful service in the development of their country, the Transkei." Mr Chairman, the motion is of great significance because it deals with land. The World Bank Report has this to say on the importance of land : “Land is, of course, one of the basic factors of production for food and other agricultural products. With food production rising in the developing countries at about the same rate as the population there is growing pressure on land resources to increase output." After independence, Mr Chairman, all the farms held by the South African Bantu Trust on behalf of the Transkeian Government will be transferred to the Transkeian Government. These lands shall be handed over still capable of yielding enough produce for home consumption and overseas or foreign markets. Once they are handed over, what should be done by the Trankeian Government to maintain the economic value thereof and to improve it? The motion says the Government should divide these farms into smaller farms which will still be large enough to yield marketable produce in the economic sense. The sizes may vary, say, from 100 to 200 morgen. After this has been done the Government should grant a farm to each of the present paramount chiefs as their personal property and to Transkeians who have in one way or another rendered meritorious services to the Transkei and who, of course, will have been certified to be interested and capable farmers. Mr Chairman, one may be capable of farming but his capability remains meaningless without initiative, diligence and active interest. Let us remember the old Biblical story of a talented man who never used his talents. Land is necessary for the maintenance of the State, Sir. Land or area implies resources, and own resources, determining the extent of sovereignty. The hon the Leader of the Opposition very often emphasizes the distinction between economic interdependence and economic dependence. He hints that economic interdependence denotes a situation where one finds two States depending on each other by exchanging marketable goods; while economic dependence refers to an unhealthy relationship between two States with one of the two States existing on the alms given by the other, well - as parasitism. and he describes that MR K. M. GUZANA: I said , it is a dependent country. I never used the word "parasite". Don't put words into my mouth. M/AGRICULTURE : The meaning is the same. MR GUZANA: I did not say the one is a parasite. MR LUDIDI: I did not quote you. I am using my own words. MR GUZANA: You said "he said". MR LUDIDI : Now, no-one would like to see the Transkei emerge as one of the underdeveloped States, thus to ensure a better economic future of the Transkei the House is being asked to pass an enabling measure to make it possible for the Transkeian Government to embark on an agricultural development programme. This is what most independent States do after independence. Uppal Salkiver writes: "Since independence almost all countries in the underdeveloped world have turned their attention from the struggle for political freedom to the problems of industrialization and economic growth." Now, the motion before us requests this House to authorize the Transkeian Government to embark on a programme to improve agricultural productivity in the Transkei. This is very necessary, Sir,
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and personal interest in the farm. Let us remember that interest and responsibility cannot be generated and determined by governmental action. In fact, government interference kills individual initiative. Above all, man does not value an object in which his direct interest is not involved. A report of the World Bank paper entitled "Rural Development Series" reads:- "The most successful land reforms include those whereby tenants become owners of the land they operate, as in Japan, Taiwan and some parts of Europe. With the conversion of tenants into owners there is greater security of tenure and larger incomes for the farmer. This in turn encourages savings and so on farm investment and higher output." The report continues: "The conversion of tenants into owner/operators generally leads to a more efficient and more equitable form of agricultural production than tenancy. This is evidence not only from the reforms in Japan and Taiwan, but also from experience in parts of Africa where customary tradition is converted into freehold. In Kenya the provision of security of tenure has increased on --- farm investment and helped raise output." Mr Chairman, the stress of my argument falls on the possibility of tenant farmers qualifying to become private owners and operators of the farms. If lessees get to the farms without hope for private ownership in the end should they do well, the rate of output will be affected. It is also true that all their zeal as farmers may sag quite sadly. Let us learn from experience based on the tenure system whereby businessmen lease shops from the XDC. A man leases a trading station from the XDC without the security of ownership or the prospect of private ownership. All the years of his tenancy his efforts are directed towards the improvement of his stock and income. He is not worried about the buildings and the land on which they stand, both of which are not his property. His senses are therefore strongly governed by the truth that one day he will die or vacate the place and his labours left to the comfort of another man. Thus "The Xhosa Destruction Company must maintain and renovate its property" is a common joke today. In the same way a tenant farmer will exhaust the fann of its resources and do little to maintain its proper economic value. Yet my concern is not output and productivity alone. The farmer must take from the soil and give back. I suggest that prospective farmers should sign the lease contract conscious of the fact that he may one day qualify as a prospective buyer. The Government may then lease a farm to the person, for example fo. five years during which the lessee may prove himself and qualify himself for personal ownership, and after the five-year period the Government may convert his tenancy to ownership. If the Government is not satisfied with his performance then it can use its discretion as to whether to terminate his lease contract or whether to extend it for a further five years. Now, to sum up, Mr Chairman, it is clear that the paramount chiefs ought to be given personal farms; and secondly, that with the farms which will be given to Transkeians the Government will have to take precautionary measures to see to it that these farms will be maintained and that in the end their economic value will not deteriorate. MR H. H. ZIBI : Will there be a probationary period for paramount chiefs? MR LUDIDI : The hon member asks if there will be a probationary period for paramount chiefs. As I have pointed out, Mr Chairman, the paramount chiefs should straight away be given personal farms without probation. I have already said, Mr Chairman, that the motion should be supported by the members because it is an important motion. I think I have exhausted myself trying to give reasons for this. I therefore move accordingly, Mr Chairman. MR C. DIKO: I second the motion. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I rise to move an amendment to this motion , that all the words after the word "deteriorate" be deleted so that the motion should read as follows:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of settling the Trust farms to be transferred to the Transkeian Government in terms of the 1936 Land and Trust Act in such a way that the economic value thereof will not deteriorate." Then we stop. (Laughter)
as long as they hold the position of paramount chieftainship. Should they retire or become physically incapacitated permanently from going on with their duties then they may remain on these farms subject to the respect and sympathy of their heirs and the people, otherwise there is no legal provision binding their heirs on the throne to allow the former heads of the tribes to remain on the tribal farms. Thus it is in order to call for a measure which will make it possible for the Government to grant personal farms to the paramount chiefs. My argument is again rendered more weighty by the fact that the farms they occupy now have vanished as farm units. They are just rural locations. Much of the area is occupied by tenants whom I prefer to call the subjects of the paramount chief, I learn from reliable sources that most of the area of the farm now held by Paramount Chief Jongilizwe in Eastern Pondoland has been given to his subjects and on it are kraal sites of the various fami.es. MR GUZANA: Do they pay any site rents? MR LUDIDI: His control of the farm and the income from it, therefore, may not necessarily be the same as that of a landlord or a farmer. We must remember that he is a chief and his attitude towards the land is basically that of a leader - a father towards his children, and the tenants themselves look at him as their chief. Those tenants think he is obliged to care for them and provide land for them as their traditional and divine leader. I still remember, Mr Chairman, that my own father who was not a paramount chief had a big area of land on which he settled his people and his sons-in-law. He did not regard them as tenants in the economic sense. Now, hon members, I have proved to you that our paramount chiefs have no personal farms. They occupy tribal farms presently with no legal security except the security of customary respect. For the reasons given above I request hon members of both parties to support the proposition that the Government should grant farms as personal property to the paramount chiefs. Now on dealing with the question of granting small farms to deserving Transkeians I wish to remind hon members of the importance and need to improve agricultural production. In this motion I am concerned with the preservation of the economic value of the farms to be released and of stepping up agricultural production. Thus I say the Government should see that the menace of subsistence farming does not develop into the lands which will be transferred. In other words, the Government should see to it that economic farming on released farms will be carried out according to modern methods of farming. Once the farms have been divided into smaller economic holdings or farms, the next step will be to apply a regularized selection system with a view to getting efficient Transkeian farmers. I maintain it must be a Transkeian who will have initiative, diligence and capacity. How these applicants will be chosen will be the duty of the Executive and the administration, but the nature of tenure under which the farms shall be held is within the scope of this motion. Let us consider a progressive process aimed at transforming the tribal farmer. First the Government must take the farmer at his communal or cummunity farming level and give him a State-managed farm without subjecting him to the sophisticated capitalistic method of farming straight away. The nature of government management and its extent is not a political issue as far as I am concerned. These farms must be State farms at first to enable the Government to ensure that the economic value thereof does not deteriorate. The Government must have authority to ascertain whether a farmer is progressive or retrogressive; whether the farmer farms according to the standards laid down by the Government or practises traditional farming methods. The Government should have the authority to conduct regular inspections and to evict unproductive farmers, to evict them in favour of prospective applicants. However, the Government should not be committed to create socialized farms farms which will remain State property ever. The Government instead should maintain supervision which will be withdrawn eventually as the farmer evolves to his full maturity. Mr Chairman, most Governments share the conviction that private ownership is a good in centive to economic productivity. Without a sense of private ownership the individual farmer will lose direct
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cal-pressure piece of machinery. Now, if we are going to have such ideas then the Republican Government can well ask this Government: Why ask for more land when you are going to throw away productive land by giving it to paramount chiefs who will not be obliged to use the farms productively? MR K. G. NOTA: It is assumed they will do that. MR GUZANA: The mover did say that they need not use them productively. MR LUDIDI: On a point of explanation, Mr Chairman, I said whether or not they will be productive I am not going to debate that. I went on to say I am mainly concerned with the act whereby the Government will acknowledge their status and the rôle they have played. MR GUZANA: Mr Chairman, I am certainly not impressed and I still hold that this hon member said that productivity is not essential in respect of farms given gratis to paramount chiefs. MR LUDIDI: Don't put words into my mouth. MR GUZANA: Let me point out, as I have just said, this betrays your irresponsible attitude to land, small as it is in the Transkei , and makes nonsense of this Government's plea for the addition of more land. MR H. PAMLA: How much land is given to the Queen of England? MR GUZANA: How many queens do we have in the Transkei? About five? (Laughter) And so we ask you the question: Do you want land to use it productively or do you want land to give it away as a gift to political supporters? The hon member went on to say that the farms which the paramount chiefs have already have deteriorated in value and are non-productive because there are tenants settled on these farms. MR K. G. NOTA: Exactly. MR GUZANA: First of all, let it be clear to everybody that the settlement of these tenants has remunerative benefit for the paramount chief, so that their failure to use farms productively is in effect an indication of their inability to use a farm. Farms are for agricultural and pastoral activity, not for settlement. Indeed, at this time when maize and mealie-meal cannot be brought into the Transkei the farms used by paramount chiefs should have produced sufficient maize to tide us over until the beginning of May, but those people who are tenants on these farms are going to starve just about as much as the people on rural allotments, and if there is any justification for giving paramount chiefs more land for personal and private ownership, it should only follow after an assessment of the productivity which has been shown to date on the hereditary farms which they have. MR NOTĄ: Do you mean they should eject those tenants there? MR GUZANA: It has not been suggested throughout the address of the mover of this motion that the farms to be donated are going to be alternative to the farms already settled with tenants. MR L. S. BALENI: Come now to prospective farmers. MR GUZANA: The hon member for Umzimkulu asks me now to deal with the question of prospective farmers. In as much as he assumed when I kept silent that I was supporting the motion he moved, I shall now assume he is quite convinced that there is no justification for giving farms gratis to paramount chiefs. The motion says that prospective farmers who have rendered faithful service in the development of their country, the Transkei, should also be given farms. Now what is this faithful service? Is it political loyalty? Is it intensive canvassing for the government party? (Laughter) Is it almost subservient loyalty to the hierarchy of the TNIP? (Interjections) What is meant here by people who have rendered faithful service? MR H. PAMLA: In the development of the Transkei. Don't leave that out. It makes sense. MR GUZANA: It goes on to say "in the development of their country". MR LUDIDI : Yes, you will be eligible. MR GUZANA: If anything has been emphasized over the last 13 years in this policy of separate development, it is that you have the separation but you have left the development behind. (Laughter) What is this development about which you speak and which you are going to reward? Are these the civil servants who have worked in your administrative offices? Are they the field officers who are government servants? What-
MR M. P. LUDIDI: Don't play with words. MR GUZANA: I am now quite convinced that those in power seek to entrench themselves forever. They seek to award political supporters right from the paramount chiefs down to their very active political canvassers, and the hon member for Matatiele has given us an inkling as to what is going to happen in the future. He seeks to have the political stature of the paramount chiefs used in order to entrench nominated membership in this House and in order to whittle down the support of any opposition group by using them to influence voters. MR LUDIDI: Who said so? MR GUZANA: The fact that here we have a motion seeking to reward paramount chiefs not because they are paramount chiefs but because they have used their position in the power struggle in the Transkei is completely unacceptable, for they have been involved politically throughout the last 13 years of self-government; they have had the big voice in the Transkeian Territorial Authority; they still had a big voice in the UTTGC and now you want them to continue to have that big voice into the future. It is time we called a halt to this sort of thing. You have prided yourselves that you are governing the Transkei democratically and now you betray your real motives by seeking to give awards after 13 years of faithful political service by the paramount chiefs. (Laughter) We have warned you against this coming fault. We have always told you that the chiefs and their paramount chiefs should go into an upper house. Now you are embarrassed by the overwhelming political influence which paramount chiefs have exercised in your favour so that in spite of the land hunger in the Transkei you want to give away make a gift of land to paramount chiefs. M/AGRICULTURE: They deserve it. MR GUZANA: Nothing is more preposterous. MR K. G. NOTA: You prefer that we should give it to the Whites? MR GUZANA: Nothing is more iniquitous, for this will just be political rewards to paramount chiefs who have loyally supported this Government. MR LUDIDI: Even the paramount chief who supported your party? MR GUZANA: I just wonder what will happen to those paramount chiefs who have not supported this Government. (Interjections) In your own minds you are thinking of the loyal and faithful political support that you have had. Let us not have political rewards in the form of land given to anybody. The hon member for Matatiele tells us that the paramount chiefs do have farms but these are held by them in trust for their successors. Let me point out to him that there are paramount chiefs who have title deeds to those farms. Be that as it may, this intended largesse to the paramount chiefs will mean in effect that the paramount chief can use the farm and exercise all those rights, can burden the farm as he pleases because he shall be the owner. He can even sell the farm because it will be his personal property. So we are going to have a situation where you have a paramount chief with a farm granted for use and for hereditary inheritence and a farm which he owns. During his lifetime he sells his own personal farm and his successor succeeds to the hereditary farm, but must also be given gratis and for nothing a farm in order to comply with a precedent which lays down a grant of a farm to a paramount chief. MR LUDIDI: That is out of order. MR GUZANA: What is out of order? MR LUDIDI: We are talking about present paramount chiefs, not paramount chiefs to be. MR GUZANA: He in turn sells his farm which he owns. He inherits the hereditary farm but he must be given gratis by this Government another big farm. (Interjections) The whole thing becomes so ridiculous and preposterous that you wonder why the suggestion has been made at all in this House. Why should you discriminate against future paramount chiefs when you are going to make these grants? (Interjections) If you are going to legislate and create a precedent in this any successor to a paramountcy shall demand that the rights and privileges and the largesse you extended to his father must also come his way. The mover says the paramount chief need not use the farm productively, that he is merely given the farm because he is a politi-
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for 13 years behind the scenes and now you come into the open in this House and ask us to give them farms. (Laughter) You suggest the hon member who moved this motion that there should be a trial period of five years for these prospective farmers and if one fails the farm is taken away from him. Were I in that position I would say: Why start at all if at the end of five years the farm could well be taken away from me? This betrays true ignorance of farming as an enterprise. I am not going to talk about artificial manure. I will talk about the manure which accummulates in the stock-kraal stock-kraal manure. Before you can get benefit out of that manure which has been spread over your land at least two years must go by and you begin to get benefit in the third year. MR LUDIDI: Are you talking from knowledge or from books? MR GUZANA: I am talking from personal experience, because I have grown up on a farm. (Laughter) GOVT MEMBERS: Where? MR GUZANA: And here I want to tell the hon member for Tabankulu that he must not make slanderous and defamatory statements against me behind my back. It therefore takes time before you get benefit out of the manure put into the land. A beef beast, to reach its prime in South Africa (I don't say elsewhere) takes from three to four years, so that the period of five years is too short for any person .... MR NOTA: He was not fixing it. It was just a suggestion. MR GUZANA: I am talking about what he was saying. He will have an opportunity to change his mind. MR LUDIDI: Let us say ten years then. MR GUZANA: Let us say a lifetime. Here the position is that you are going to have land available to the Transkei in terms of this Trust and Land Act. For goodness' sake, let the people buy the farms and if you speak in eulogy of farm ownership it is high time that here and now you change the system of land tenure in the Transkei. You are going to find people who are genuinely interested in farming, whose soul is in the land, who will buy the farms and use them productively and maintain the present standard of exploitation, if not improve it. I have an alternative suggestion - that in every district we should have a demonstration farm. It can be a State farm supervised, stimulated, planned by the Department of Agriculture and Forestry in each district. MR NOTA: There are demonstration plots. MR GUZANA: I am not interested in plots. I am interested in farms. MR PAMLA: Are you aware that there are plots at all?
ever development there is has certainly not been brought about by the Transkeian citizen. The hon member for Mount Ayliff points to the hon member for Qumbu as an example of a Transkeian who has contributed to the development of the Transkei. This hon member for Qumbu started developing himself 30 years ago and he has not been stimulated by separation to underdevelopment or to development. MR PAMLA: Was he developing the Transkei or developing himself? MR GUZANA: The hon member's question is quite pertinent. Who has developed the Transkei that he deserves a farm? MR LUDIDI: When he develops himself he develops the country. I quote you as an example. MR GUZANA: You would never quote me, thank heaven! You will not associate me with that sort of nonsense. All you are going to do now, if you are going to follow their intentions to their logical conclusion, is to make grants to the prospective Transkeian farmer - the Xhosa Development Corporation. That is the only farmer who has tried to do anything for the development of the Transkei. The development of the Magwa tea plantation has been the effort of the XDC. Are you going to give them a farm? The irrigation scheme in Qamata is the effort of the Republican Government. Are you going to give them a farm? MR PAMLA: There is a dairy farmer in Umzimkulu. MR GUZANA: I am amazed at the thinking that goes on in the minds of Government members. Having asked us to confirm or condone political rewards to prospective farmers under the qualification of rendering faithful service in the development of the Transkei he goes on to say these people must show diligence and initiative, or they must be potentially diligent, potentially possessing initiative. MR NOTA: What do you suggest must be done with these farms? MR GUZANA: How do you equate those qualities of loyalty as a reward to people for faithful services? Your definition of the development of the Transkei is synonymous with the growing number of members of the TNIP in this House. Imagine if this is the criterion, the hon member for Mount Frere (I nearly said the "late" teacher), the retired teacher is now given a farm for faithful service to the development of the TNIP. (Laughter) You know, this whole exercise of this hon member begins to reveal to me something sinister which is not visible to the naked eye - that as the TNIP grows in artificial support, so are there hidden rewards, hidden promises which are made, and not made in the open. And so we look with contempt upon your growth because we know it is the result of awards under the table. MR LUDIDI: No, it is bcause you are jealous of our numbers. MR GUZANA: Who would be jealous of these political misfits? (Laughter) Let me warn this Government that so long as it commands a majority because it makes awards, so long is it digging its grave sooner or later. You think I just talk, but let me give you an example. A chief who is a member of the Government happened to come from the post office and he bumped into me. He was opening an envelope over which was franked "Government of the Transkei" or "URulumente waseTranskei” (Laughter) and he opened tt and pulled out a cheque. M/HEALTH: Salary cheque. MR GUZANA: He read it. M/EDUCATION: We are not interested in that. MR GUZANA: You need not be. Get out! His reaction was: “Oh, Matanzima feeds us. I wonder what this is for?" He said: "I don't know how it comes about that I should receive this cheque, but here it is." (Laughter) They should listen because they know I say these things not only here but in Mqanduli. M/HEALTH: Wasn't it a salary cheque? MR PAMLA: You will not be returned next election. MR GUZANA: I am not returned by the chiefs of Mqanduli, thank you very much. It is the voters who return me here. You do not get a salary cheque in the middle of the month. He could not have expressed himself so grateful as he did when he got this cheque and said quite clearly he did not know why he was getting the cheque. Now, you have got away with it
MR GUZANA: You have tried it in Qamata where a lot of ground potentially fertile and highly productive is placed under irrigation and the hon the Minister of Agriculture looks to the ground whenever we talk of that area because right from the beginning up to today that scheme has run at a loss. MR LUDIDI: Why is it running at a loss? MR GUZANA: Because the whole effort is run on a tribal basis. It is in Emigrant Tembuland, therefore Emigrant Tembus must be given preference there. That is where the trouble lies. So we must move away from that concept, construct moderately-sized irrigation schemes and weirs across our perennial rivers to assist ten to twelve farmers here, ten to twelve farmers there, to exploit their land. You will notice that my amendment gives the Government carte blanche as to the method of maintaining high productivity on these farms and the visit of the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs - I am sorry, the Minister of Justice to Taiwan brought back to the Transkei a wealth of knowledge about what should be done in order to increase productivity. His experience there, and what he saw, we hope will be reflected in the programme of the Department of Agriculture and Forestry. My only worry is that probably the hon the Minister of Agriculture never approached the Minister of Justice to find out how it is done in Taiwan. M/AGRICULTURE: There is no need. MR GUZANA: There is no need - that's right. Indeed, there is no need, for where ignorance is bliss 'tis folly to be wise. I am hoping that this Government is going to take advantage of the successful diplomatic mission of the Prime Minister to Israel to come here
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as much production in the land to feed the people of the Transkei. We are not saying to every paramount chief, as the speaker wanted to know as to what happens if the son wants his own farm. We said we are giving to the present paramount chiefs. Let that be very clear. MR K. M. GUZANA: Read the motion in front of you. MR DIKO: Yes, but we omitted deliberately to put "present" paramount chiefs and we are debating it now. You are a good debater and you must understand that while "the present" does not appear on the motion we knew in our minds that we should emphasize that only the paramount chiefs who are in office today would be given land, I encouraged you to take the Attorneys' Admission (Laughter) but in education I was always beating you, so in debates I must beat you. (Laughter) The important fact (and I don't want the House to be confused) is that we are not talking of the land that has been allocated for a certain tribe, but the land released by the Republican Government is the land where we shall slice out a portion for the paramount chief. That land is the land we are going to give him if the white rulers had not taken our land away from us and robbed us and fought us for our land. We are now taking that land again to give to the paramount chiefs. Hon members must realise that the land we are now going to give to the paramount chief and the people in those particular farms - most of those have been held by one European, one White. MR H. PAMLA: Shame!
and show how it should be done. They have the most barren land in Israel, but they are able to feed the people as Jesus Christ commanded them. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR N. JAFTA: I second the amendment, Mr Chairman. MR C. DIKO: Mr Chairman and hon members, I am worried about the question asked by the last speaker, the hon member for Mqanduli , as to what we mean by rendering faithful services, so I want to give him an example. He has been given two hours to speak nonsense in this House (Laughter) and that is given only by the Matanzima Government because that is the biggest stooge of the Matanzima Government. So the hon member is a good example of a man who will be given a farm. MR K. M. GUZANA: I don't want one. MR DIKO: He cannot say that. Why do you want to get a special allowance as leader when you lead no-one? So whether you like it or not we will give it to you because you have been in this Government for the last 13 years and we are going to keep you in this Government because you are very useful. (Laughter) So those are the faithful services we want. MR GUZANA: No, thank you. MR DIKO: I will therefore have to do a good deal of education of the hon member and those who might fall into his way of thinking. I won't say his followers because he leads no-one that side. It may be there are certain chaps (Laughter) ― gentlemen here like the hon member who are so unfortunate as to think they know the position of paramount chiefs. The hon member has spoker. very much against the granting of a personal farm to the paramount chiefs. We are not surprised. He in his best days, supported by myself, wanted to place them in the cold storage of an upper house, but he does not think the way I do because he can't see which side the wind is blowing. (Laughter) He never realised it is futile to argue against the might of the chief in this House. So we are now entrenching chieftainship for the second time and I want you to get that very clear. We in the Transkei are set and are determined on that line that chieftainship must be entrenched. We have a reason for that. We don't just become chiefs and paramount chiefs. We fought and we showed up gallantly in those days. That is what you must know - that is why I am educating you. You will not go to one tribe in the whole of the Transkei which could fight mightier than the AmaNci. (Laughter) So we are going to give the paramount chiefs farms because they are the traditional leaders of our people, and before the people they lead could have paid them for their leadership your masters, the white race, came and took away the land from us. So now that the Matanzima détente and Mr Vorster have made our land to come back to us our first duty is to give the paramount chief the land which he should have been given by his people. That is the view of the people. It is not the view of the man who has moved the motion. You see, you cannot do away with chieftainship in the Transkei. The rank and file , the sans culottes, the people down there, the underdog, will not care for the voice of the few educated misleaders. All they want is that the paramount chief must be looked after properly, and in all things they want to know what is the opinion and view of the paramount chief or the chief. So those who were born somewhere in the backveld of Keiskamahoek (Laughter) will not know how much the ordinary man respects the chief and paramount chief. We are definitely giving (now, do you understand what I am saying?) we are giving the paramount chief, and the question as to whether this land will be used profitably or productively is irrelevant. Now, I want you to get that very clear. The mover of the motion was misleading about that but I want to make it clear that whether the paramount chief will use this land productively or not, we are not concerned. One thing we know is at a future stage he will have a son a son of our days and the days of tomorrow - who will go to other countries and learn and know how the land must be used to feed the people to feed the nation. So we have a trust in the future. We have a hope that the paramount chiefs of today will educate their children, the paramount chiefs of tomorrow, to such an extent that these paramount chiefs to be will know the value of the land and will use it productively, will produce
MR GUZANA I am not interested in them. These farms should be used to demonstrate to the inhabitants of a district what can be done with their soil, with their pasturage, and the demonstration is relevant because it succeeds in the climatic conditions that prevail in that particular district. The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION CHAIRMAN: Hon members of the House, as was indicated the other day the members have a tendency of absolutely refusing to come into this House on time, so you were advised that stricter measures would be taken against those members who do not come into this House on time. I will therefore request the orderlies to close the doors while the roll is called. The roll was called. CHAIRMAN : It is one of the rules of this House that directly the bells stop ringing every member should be inside the House. When the members are sitting around the foyer just as they please it is not my business. In fact, they continue doing so even when we pray them to come into the House. The roll has been called this afternoon, so please do not hold me responsible for whatever the consequences may be. GRANT OF TRUST FARMS TO PARAMOUNT CHIEFS AND OTHERS The debate was resumed. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, the saving which has been effected this afternoon in respect of sessional allowances could very well be used in developing what I said before lunch re district demonstration farms ; (Laughter) These farms will demonstrate how the land can be used. M/JUSTICE: We shall save on you when you go and defend cases at Mqanduli. (Laughter) MR GUZANA: I shall earn more by going to Mqanduli. The farms could demonstrate to the district residents what can be grown throughout the year, and type and method of crop rotation could be demonstrated effectively. The right type of fruit trees could be grown on these farms in order to encourage the district farmers to grow that type of fruit. Various breeds of stock, both for the production of red meat and also for an increased yield in milk, could very well be kept on this demonstration farm in order to get the people to see the improvement rather than be told about it. The Transkei could be divided into soil regions to determine the highest yield possible in any particular region if a particular crop is grown in that region. It is only in this way that we can have an agro-pastoral revolution in the Transkei. It is only in this way that we can stimulate
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the traditional farmers into new methods of farming, both agricultural and pastoral. I would like to see any conservative farmer resisting the evidence of a milker filling up a five-gallon tin at one sitting. I would like to see a man who will be persuaded into neglecting his orchard if his neighbour, the demonstration farm, is yielding peaches the size of a child's head. Here I am reminded of an object lesson regularly and repeatedly taught to his neighbours by the late B. B. Mdledle. Because he had a peach orchard on his farm he was regularly visited during the ripening season by wellwishers who came to his farm and sat under the trees to enquire after his health. (Laughter) Trading on the African's traditional generosity they knew they would be given five to six peaches to eat whilst they ruminated over their ills and ailments. After a prolonged ten-hour enquiry after each other's health Mr Mdledle would then enquire after the visitor's business. This visitor shamelessly indicated that he had noticed that the peaches were getting ripe and thought he would sample the orchard produce, whereupon Mr Mdledle would get half-a-dozen luscious peaches and sit down to eat them himself and then he would offer generously the stones of the half-dozen peaches and say: If you plant these you will have them on your farm. And so in this harsh way he influenced people to grow peaches on their farms. In farming, therefore, you can get the message across more by appealing to the eye rather than the ear of the potential farmer. Instead of basing agricultural officers in the town, place them on the demonstration farm for them to radiate into all the administrative areas in order to make their influence and their presence felt. If we want to give stimulus to this type of development, let us not talk about temporary tenancy of farms. Where farming is scientific the Government usually has an Act laying down what a farmer should do and what he should not do in husbanding the land, and any farmers within a rehabilitation or conservation area who fail to comply with these minimum agricultural and pastoral requirements are guilty of a statutory offence ; for the man on the land feeds the man in the factory, in the workshop, in the mine, in the towns. He is the man responsible for energizing all these people by providing them with food. And is it not a tragedy that in the Transkei we do not have sufficient chicken to go round. Notice I give the dictionary meaning to the word "chicken" not what you fellows are thinking of. (Laughter) Is it not a tragedy that we cannot supply sufficient goods for consumption in the Transkei ? Is it not a tragedy that lorry after lorry has to come into the Transkei loaded with fruit and vegetables, especially when we take into account the potential agricultural fertility of the Transkei? But of course this sort of situation will continue in the future so long as you want to award and give away farms to political supporters - people who are loyals, people who have developed the Transkei in some queer way described as "faithful service". So long as you do that, so long shall we starve in the Transkei. MR H. PAMLA: You will get a free farm too. MR GUZANA: If ever this Government should contemplate giving me a farm free of charge then it can use it as a demonstration farm wherever it is situated, because there is such a big land hunger that it would be utterly selfish for me to possess a farm when other people go without land especially when it is given to me free, gratis and for nothing, allegedly for faithful service. Let us not go back to the feudal days where people will be living in Umtata and owning a farm in Qumbu or in Kentani or in Umzimkulu or else in Lusikisiki a system of ownership tantamount to absent landlordism. The man who owns the farm must be on the farm. His farm requires personal supervision. MR K. G. NOTA: He can have a farm manager. MR GUZANA: He may have a farm manager but his eye must be constantly over the farm management. What has happened to the hereditary farms of paramount chiefs? They have become denuded deserts. That is because those tenants who are living on these farms could not care less what they do with the surface of the soil, with the fertile land, because they don't own the land. CHIEF H. Z. ZULU: How do you know that? MR GUZANA: The stationmaster of Ndabakazi wants to know how I know about this. (Laughter) I
would be happy if a paramount chief were to ask me that question, but for the stationmaster who has nothing what does else to do but look after the goods trains he know about it? Let us be quite sincere and objective. Let us not think that the small area of land in the Transkei can be given away to political cronies. MR NOTA: Give it to people who are productive, whether they are TNIP or not. MR DIKO: My learned friend, the hon the Leader of the Opposition, in his day has always been advocating to this House that we must not talk about land being taken away from the Whites. He says the Whites must own this land. What kind of politician are you? (Laughter) What sort of attorney? He must be consistent in his arguments . MR GUZANA: Every circus has its clown. MR DIKO: So a majority vote is going to pass this motion and you will only have your seconder to support you. I want hon members, particularly those who would be opposers of this motion, to realise these are not days to play. These are days to learn and learn effectively. We must acquire land and in our acquiring land we want no nonsense. You see, a man who does not understand our argument must look on himself and ask why at the beginning he had a very good team of men like Bubu, Mda, Cromwell Diko. (Laughter) All these have deserted him now. What for? So the people in the Transkei do not want to be led by a commoner. Please understand that. People of the Transkei don't want a commoner. They always want a chief a paramount chief. Chiefs have been ordained by God the Almighty to be leaders of the people , to be leaders and to know the aspirations of the people, so I don't want you to come with these seditious communistic ideas into this House. I can hear the hon member for Mount Frere saying you were the first Communist. MR GUZANA: You had better withdraw that. MR DIKO: You get your notes from somewhere. I will give them a paramount chief, then we shall give them a land with a view to serving the commoners who are showing the qualities of a developer of progressive ability. That is why I will have a farm in Kokstad. (Laughter) Yes, definitely I will have a farm in Kokstad and I want to hasten things so that those lands will be part of Transkei before independence. That is Faku's land up to the Umzimkulu boundary, so when we got those farms in Kokstad, you and me ... (Laughter) Yes, we will be neighbours there. (Laughter) So what I want the House to disabuse themselves of is that when we talk of people who have rendered faithful services we are talking of TNIP supporters. We are not thinking politically in the distribution of land. MR GUZANA: You are. MR DIKO : We are talking about men and women who know how to use the land, like the hon chief from Nyandeni, Chief D. D. P. So we want the qualities of men who know how to use the land. MR GUZANA: And what about you? MR DIKO: Yes, I will get one. You know I am a good farmer. (Laughter) Now, the hon the Leader of the Opposition said (and he was misled by the mover) that squartters are wasting land in Qaukeni who are tenants on the paramount chief's farm. You must not come and talk about things you do not know about. First you must visit Qaukeni to see what is going on. Who has ever bought mealies from your shop? So you could never undermine Qaukeni people so far as the use of the soil is concerned. Everybody who is at Qaukeni in that farm is producing mealies. There is no land wasted there. What I want to talk about is in the interim. You know that is an English word. (Laughter) We say this man will not buy the farm from the outset. He must take a certain period in acquiring the skill of a farmer, showing his ability to this Government and his capabilities in so far as production is concerned. We don't want men like you who have got money and know nothing about the use of the land to go straight and buy these farms, because if you want to buy today you will buy but you haven't the skill of the farmer. you haven't the skill we would like you to have. So the scheme is to make these people prove themselves on the soil and thereafter they will be given a right to buy the farm. That is what we want you to appreciate. Now, this is my last point and I want you to listen. MR GUZANA: You have not explained "interim" to me.
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are few progressive farmers and they are scattered about the country. Everything depends upon the leaders. They should be fearless and realise that any progress in agriculture largely depends upon them. I see no reason why the Cabinet and the heads of the Department of Agriculture should not consult together and also ask other people to join them. Thirteen years is a very long period and some improvement should by now have been noticeable. It is clear that one can say nothing has yet been started in so far as agriculture is concerned. The hon member for Tabankulu stated amongst other things that the present system prevailing in agriculture is the precious cause of the failure of progressive farming. I put the blame upon the Cabinet and the Department of Agriculture in not taking action, because that is exactly why farming is proving a failure in the Transkei. If such a meeting as I have suggested should be convened in order to find out what exactly is responsible for the failure, this question of progressive farming could be solved. (Interjections) If you are satisfied with the present situation you can carry on, but what we want is good results. There is very little land available and what is required is that the little land we have should be allocated to people who will use it beneficially. Not one country has ever desired that every individual should own a piece of land. Even if every man has a land that is not desirable. Some people go in for trading ; others want to become tennis champions; some want to practise medicine and others want to become school teachers. If they want to become teachers and at the same time own a farm there is something wrong in that. Even if a man is a trader with a trading store and he wants to farm at the same time, there is something wrong. The problem is the great number of arable allotments allocated to people who cannot plough their lands properly. This matter is of great importance and it is those in authority who should come to a final decision in this matter. That is how namely, that there was no need we see this motion for it but that matters should be put right by the authorities. This all lies within the province of the Cabinet Ministers. The progress of the Transkei lies in their hands and it is their duty to see to it. MR S. W. MBANGA: Mr Chairman and hon members, this country has come a long way with the chiefs. The social organization of our people is inextricably bound up with chieftainship and the whole of our political and constitutional development is bound up with the chiefs. MR K. M. GUZANA: That is the tragedy of everything. MR MBANGA : I was surprised to listen to some of the hon members wondering why chieftainship should not be considered when it is time to consider their services in the past up to this moment. Some of the people who are against the granting of private farms to chiefs are people who are in a position to compare and contrast the constitutional development of the Transkei with that of England, to which it is very similar. Before England was industrialized the people there led a life exactly like ours. The English people were divided into clans with chiefs, hence they had what they call today dukedoms and principalities. When England was industrialized the majority of the people moved to industrial centres, but these country chiefs or squires were left in respect where they had been before and their heirs would inherit from these squires or country gentlemen. It would not be a wrong thing for this Government to reward these paramount chiefs from public funds in consideration for their services over the past years, because we cannot suddenly and abruptly do away with chiefs without disrupting our social life. The other part of the motion refers to small plots being given to enterprising farmers. Up to now the small plots we had were given indiscriminately to people who could or could not use the land in the proper way. The motion seeks now to create a new class of farmer for present conditions, and this motion seeks to do this without discarding the previous owners of land and the chiefs. After all, it is not the fault of the chiefs but more the fault of the poor peasant farmers that the position is as it is today. All we want to do is to recognize that we are closing an era, because with the advent of independence in the Transkei we are starting a new social, industrial, economic and other life. Already we have young aspiring men who will
MR DIKO: I told you the man is given the farm and the mover of the motion said to you for about five years. I am not saying five years, do you understand? I am saying 20 years. I am saying so, not the mover. Yes, that is the period for these men to work with the understanding that at the end the farm will be their property. MR GUZANA: He will be dead by then. MR DIKO : Then his son will be there. In any case, what I want you to appreciate is that this period is for the man to prove himself, and I am not in favour of this Crown land business - of this rural land business. I have always wanted that at some stage the African will acquire land just as the white man is acquiring land, and in that view I am not being racialistic, as you may maintain, as you may imply that some time I was scandalous in your absence. MR GUZANA : You were, of course. MR DIKO: I am a seasoned politician. I am a seasoned statesman, and when you speak nonsense and run away to Mqanduli I have to speak when my chance comes. I am educating people on the misleading you have been doing, so when I want the acquisition of land to any African to be just as it is worth the white people I am not being racialistic. I am fundamentally a capitalalist. I am not a socialist and I am not a communist. So I encourage initiative and enterprise private enterprise. That other nonsense will not work. You may say I am talking nonsense, but I am thinking private enterprise is the biggest thing that will develop this country. MR GUZANA: Then why have the XDC? MR DIKO : Because we have people like you; because we have sell-outs like you who have sold all our land to the Whites. CHAIRMAN: I request the hon member on the floor to address the Chairman. He is constantly addressing himself to the Leader of the Opposition instead of addressing himself to the Chair. MR DIKO: Now, Mr Chairman , the point I want to drive home to every member of the Transkei is that we should encourage private enterprise in so far as the use of the land is concerned. The knowledge that he possesses this piece of land does encourage the person concerned to take all possible steps to improve and produce the best on that piece of land, but because we are in the unfortunate position of being poor in understanding and education we have been landless for 350 years. We have to make a small beginning of allowing those people who are promising to be good farmers to be given small holdings with a view to buying. So with those few remarks I hope the House will understand that the land we have acquired must be given to the paramount chiefs and to the people who have shown good qualities in farming. MR N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand in support of this amendment. The first portion of the motion is quite clear and it shows that the motion is in conformity with the amendment. The most important question of this whole matter is to find out how people will be placed in a position to practise agriculture on their lands in a satisfactory manner. You will be able to arrive at a certain conclusion when you take note of the number of years which have passed since the establishment of this House. If you have noted well, you will find that since the establishment of this Assembly we have been discussing the question of agriculture but so far there has been no improvement. I have referred to the last 13 years, but before that time there was another 20 years during which we continually went downhill. The hon the Chief Minister once said in his policy speech that we could realise 50 million bags of grain in the Transkei. Since that pronouncement there has been no indication that we will ever reap 50 million bags. We have been talking in this House and trying to discover means of achieving progress in this country. We did consult with the Department of Agriculture to find ways and means of improving production. I think the Cabinet and the leaders find it difficult to collect people in order to address them because if, for example, I want to make my land productive my neighbour is not interested. The difficulty is that we are not collected in one place, but we are here and there and you find a problem presenting itself in connection with your neighbour. There 120.
time all disappeared. Those people were assassinated and a new regime was set up. Now, we want to refuse to be party to what Nazis like the hon member for Tabankulu will do when independence comes to the Transkei. It was said here again (that I admit and I agree) that the paramount chiefs, as he says, are traditional leaders by Providence of their respective tribes, but I believe nearly all at present have farms. I do not want to suggest that this is taking coals to Newwhat use has been castle, but the question arises made of those farms? The motion goes further to say that other Transkeians will be considered who have rendered - did they say "faithful and meritorious service to the country"? MR K. M. GUZANA: Faithful service to the Government. MR NOTA: To the Transkei, not to the Government. MR GUZANA: That is what you mean. MR ZIBI: What about the senior chiefs who are in other districts and wards who are senior chiefs of their tribes? Are they included in the Transkeians referred to here? GOVT MEMBERS: Yes. MR ZIBI: And if they are included in the Transkeians mentioned in this motion are paramount chiefs not Transkeians? (Interjections) Meritorious or faithful service may even have been rendered by a teacher, by a Casanova, by a trader, by an inspector of schools, by a policeman who has done a lot of good work perhaps in arresting livestock thieves. Now, is that meritorious or faithful service a qualifying factor towards getting a farm? (Interjections) MR NOTA: He has to prove himself a good farmer. MR ZIBI: I would have said this motion would have come in good time if it was read during the first session after independence, because my fear is that the Republican Government may in its own interpretation think that we are making no good use of these farms released or bought over by them from the white farmers and handed over to the Transkei when they see motions such as this. M/AGRICULTURE : They have done the same thing. MR ZIBI: They may well say we will give it to some paramount chief who in turn will settle a lot of irresponsible tribesmen who, instead of developing that particular farm, will decide to pack up bag and baggage and go to the industrial areas to work in the mines or in industrial concerns, leaving the farm undeveloped and nobody making use of it at home. We have met our sons and daughters, some of whom are members of SASO and we know what ideas they have about chieftainship. MR NOTA: They are sitting behind you. MR ZIBI: We don't want to hasten that day when our chiefs may find themselves assassinated by their own sons. We are honestly in an invidious position in that on one side we are going west and on the other side we are remaining tenaciously African. What I do say is merely that the mover of the motion should take the amendment because it affords the Government of the Transkei freedom of decision, and they can implement that decision, and even subsequent changes they are at liberty to carry out because the amendment allows that scope. How true it is that the old order changeth, yielding place to new. MR . M. P. LUDIDI : Mr Chairman, just a question to the hon member on the floor, please. I am interested to know from the hon member in very clear terms the way in which the granting of personal farms to chiefs hastens the day of assassination of chiefs, as he puts it. In what way? MR ZIBI: Mr Chairman, all I said was that the hon member is aware of the modern trend of events and he is aware of what is happening in certain countries where chiefs were assassinated. (Interjections) M/JUSTICE: Why do you talk about assassination? What is in your mind? MR ZIBI: Can I say then, Mr Chairman, my advice is .... (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR ZIBI: My advice to the mover is to accept the amendment so that he can use those farms in the manner in which the Government wants them used.
take these plots and use them in the proper way. Down our way we have many projects like poultry farming, piggeries, dairy farming which have already been taken up by our young men who have basic scientific knowledge of using the land. If we fail to recognize the advent of this new era simply because of the failure of the previous landowner or peasant, then we are not fair to the whole situation in the Transkei and people who keep on destructively criticizing the poor peasant are unfair because they have failed to realise the effect of subjugation for over 300 years. Now that we have farms which are to be released from the Bantu Trust to the rightful owners of the Transkei it is our business in this House to try to encourage this. Such a grant would be a just and a deserving gesture on the part of the present parliament and Government. One of the reasons why this would be a just and deserving gesture is that the existing paramount chiefs have survived a long and tortuous period which sought to make subject the whole black people to servitude and subservience , but if we are now coming to a period when we are gaining our independence we must not forget the rôle played by the paramount chiefs , even if it is in the past of the existing chiefs. As I have said, we have had an example of this before and if we come back to the second part of the motion ― that of granting small plots to young enterprising farmers we favour this because it would save the face of the average peasant farmer against what he has been doing with our land. The small plots owned by our people are a shame to look at because they do not produce even half of what they should. Two years back they produced nothing because they said they could not produce anything during a drought. This year nothing is coming from the lands because they say too much rain is falling. This is proof of lack of scientific knowledge and effective local government, hence we advocate that these released farms should be allocated to people who have the know-how and supervisory power behind them. If these young farmers are given these plots freehold then a sense of ownership will be instilled in them. By healthy competition and good marketing of produce we can hope that this new class will demonstrate to the peasant farmer how land should be utilized. Now, what we should consider more than anything else is the fact that we are now at the crossroads. We must appreciate that we are taking up new forms of livelihood and encouragement for our young people should come from this House. Our small boys who gather at these shopping areas during the day and night will be absorbed on these small farms. As I said, Mr Chairman, I stand up to support the motion as originally tabled. MR H. H. ZIBI: Mr Chairman and hon members, I do not know if I can speak to the motion before the House as I was one of the unfortunate ones to be caught by the time when we came back at 2 o'clock. CHAIRMAN: When you were outside there was nothing discussed. MR ZIBI: Mr Chairman, I had hoped that after the mover had heard the amendment read to the House he would have withdrawn the motion. The amendment gives to the Government freedom of decision; it gives them ample scope within which to decide what sort of people could be given such farms and to what sort of people such farms could be sold, so that even if subsequently there would have been a revision of opinion by the Government in respect of the farms in question they would still have had some freedom of implementing that revised opinion they had at the time. Let us now look at the modern trend of events throughout Africa. What do we see up north in certain countries under certain governments with regard to the chiefs in those areas? Chiefs have been assassinated, chieftainship has been brought to an end. MR K. G. NOTA: Why? MR ZIBI: Because the national feeling in those areas is merely that the institution of chieftainship is outmoded and outdated and it was delaying progress. (Interjections) Aren't we seeking to sow a seed that will bring about future strife to our chiefs? The hon member for Butterworth made reference to what the position was in Great Britain before industrialization. To add to that I want also to remind the House of what happened in France before the French Revolution. The government of kings, the nobles, the princes of the 121 .
Indeed, if I had his brains I would amend the provisions he has in his motion if I had to use the amendment as put to him. MR NOTA: Have you any objection to granting farms to chiefs? MR ZIBI: All I say is: Let us look well before we leap. M/JUSTICE: Yes, you are a would-be assasin. MR ZIBI: I have said what I wanted to say, thank you, Mr Chairman. MR K. G. NOTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, the amendment as put forward by the hon the Leader of the Opposition defeats the aims of the original motion. This motion seeks to give paramount chiefs farms, and farms to prospective farmers. If these two parts are being deleted the amendment defeats the aims of the motion. MR H. H. ZIBI: No, it does not. NOTA: They would have just put a counter-motion. Before I go on to what the hon the Leader of the Opposition said I would like to refer to what the hon member for Maluti, Mr Zibi, said. He has made a sweeping statement and said that chiefs in other parts of Africa have been assassinated. That is not correct. In Lesotho there is a king there King Moshweshwe - and he has not been assassinated. In Swaziland there is King Sobuza who has not been assassinated. In Zambia their chiefs have not been assassinated. It may happen that a chief is assassinated and he is assassinated as an individual - not that chieftainship is being abolished. The hon the Leader of the Opposition has said that this Government is trying to bribe the chiefs by giving them farms; bribing them that they should support the governing party. There is nothing in the motion which says these farms will be given to the paramount chiefs who support the governing party, nor paramount chiefs who support the NDP or the DP. The paramount chiefs will be given these farms irrespective of party affiliation. What is important here is the status of the paramount chief. MR K. M. GUZANA: Isn't the inducement there? MR NOTA: The paramount chief is the head of a tribe. He represents his tribe. MR ZIBI: And where there is no paramount chief? MR NOTA: No person in the area of that particular paramount chief will have an objection to a paramount chief being given a farm. Some members have canvassed a point that the paramount chiefs have already got farms. Yes, they have got farms and those farms have got titles, but the paramount chiefs can never sell these farms because these farms are in the official residence of the paramount chiefs. At Qaukeni .... MR GUZANA: At Nyandeni? MR NOTA: ... there are people of the paramount chiefs occupying those farms. The second point, Mr Chairman, is that the very idea of giving paramount chiefs these farms is not new. The paramount chiefs were given these farms they have now by the Republi.... can Government .... MR GUZANA: In order to lead them by the nose. MR NOTA: .... and the hon the Leader of the Opposition has never quarrelled with the Republican Government about that. MR GUZANA: I do, because it has political consequences. MR NOTA: But now he is quarrelling with the Transkeian Government which is representing the people of the Transkei. The Transkeian Government is reflecting the will of the people of the Transkei. What the hon the Leader of the Opposition wants is that these farms should be given to the Whites, because he objected to consolidation. He has objected to Port St John's. He is against the idea that the "haves” should give to the "have-nots". Mr Chairman, to go further, we all know that when Jan van Riebeeck arrived in 1652 MR GUZANA: Jan van Riebeeck died long, long ago. Let him rest in peace. MR NOTA: I am talking of this question of farming and he recommended to the Council of Seventeen that there should be free burghers in the Cape to do private_farming. Those people never bought those farms. They were given to them but there were conditions attached MR GUZANA: The land was open then. There was no land hunger then. MR NOTA: .... that they should produce enough
for the refreshment station and they should not trade directly with passing ships. So the idea of giving the people in order feed to the people has been there long ago. I cannot understand, Mr Chairman, why there should be any objection to the Transkeian Government allotting land to Transkeians. It would not work if those farms were just given to people for residential purposes. The land would deteriorate in value and the position would be just as it is now. We know in the Transkei the land is used only for six months of the year and for the rest of the year it lies idle If you plant in the nonplanting season the stock will just trespass on your lands, and if you plough at a different time they will say you are practising something which will attract a hailstorm. That is why we suggest that the Government should select suitable farming candidates. There should be no open market. If we say these farms are for sale, two or three people will just buy all the farms and they will not even be farmers. People should be granted this for a certain trial period and after they have shown that they are suitable farmers then they will be allowed to buy them. Alternatively, they may not buy them but they could just be granted title deeds. They are making quite a notable contribution in providing food. To give an example, the shop is mine and it does not belong to the Government, but I will sell it to you if you want it. What we want is that this land should be used to produce food for people in urban areas. We understand that even the Europeans are averse to remaining on the land. They want to go to the towns. The Government is doing its best to persuade these people to remain on the land and produce food, because no-one can survive unless sufficient food is produced. I see nothing wrong, if the farmer proves himself suitable, in his being given title to the farm. I see nothing wrong with granting these farms to the paramount chiefs. We want land for agricultural purposes to be extended. That is why we want rail links and electricity, because we want industries established in this country. When these have been established people will be attracted to the towns and there will be land vacated by those people. When there is that vacant land it can be cut up into holdings or farms and given to suitable people who are interested in farming. After they have proved themselves capable farmers, they will get those lands. Mr Chairman, I support the motion. The debate was adjourned. CHAIRMAN: Hon members, the Chief Minister's office has received a telegram from the magistrate of Mount Fletcher asking for the release of Chiefs D. L. Lupindo and S. M. Zibi for an executive committee meeting on 14 April. The Assembly adjourned until 11 am. on Tuesday, 13 April 1976. TUESDAY, 13 APRIL 1976 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were, after amendment, taken as read and cinfirmed. NOTICE OF MOTION
39.
Mr. D. J. Ndleleni gave notice to move:—
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should consider the advisability of erecting a stock theft Police Station at Sehlabeng in Matatiele as this area is about twenty-five miles away from the nearest Police Station. " QUESTIONS. QUESTION NO. 23: Chief Daliwonga David Mlindazwe asked the Minister of Roads and Works:-
"(a) What happened to the team which used to camp at Mbongweni in the AmaNgutyana Administrative Area No. 6, Bizana? (b) Is the Honourable Minister aware that the absence of that team has brought the following roads to a very bad condition after the heavy rains since last year: From Bizana to Mnyameni 122.
Mouth, to Mngungu via Makwantini and to Kanyayo and Holy Cross Hospital?
(b) The matter is sub judice as investigations into the complaints are in progress.
(c) How often is the Superintendent stationed at Lusikisiki supposed to inspect roads in this Region? (d) How often does he actually inspect them excluding the one from Port St. Johns straight to Margate?"
(c) The practice in such cases is to institute immediate investigations. The investigations are in process. This is the practical form of acknowledgement of the receipt of the complaints. The complaints are, however, being informed of the steps taken by the Department and will also be advised of the outcome of the investigations.
REPLY: (d) It is premature to say in the light of the replies given in (b) and (c) above."
"(a) The gang had to be moved to main road No. 4. (b) Yes. (c) Once per month. (d) Approximately three times in two months."
QUESTION NO. 27: Mr. B. P. Vapi asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry :-
QUESTION NO. 25:
"Since the water boreholes drilled throughout the Port St. Johns district have proved a failure due to their yielding salty water or nothing :-
Chief D. D. Mlindazwe asked the Minister of Health :"(a) Is the Hon. Minister aware that in some tribal clinics nurses do not get their cheques for more than six months? If so, what reasons has the Department for such inconvenience?
(a) What does the Department propose doing in the circumstances ? (b) Should the local water springs not be developed to provide sufficient water supply?
(b) How many doctors are there at St. Patricks Hospital? If there are no doctors at all why can the doctors practising and or residing in the district not attend to patients in this hospital?"
(c) Is the Department aware that this area is still without sufficient water supply although it was rehabilitated about 10 years ago?"
REPLY :
REPLY :
"(a) Yes. The reasons for such delays are due to failure by the Tribal Authority to submit their quarterly claims in this regard. As the nurse is paid by the Tribal Authority such payment may also be delayed by the Tribal Authority.
"(a) There are 4 boreholes equipped and one scheme from a river. One of the borehole schemes will be extended under the present running contract FT/AF 53/74 and one, which is salty, will be replaced by a scheme from a spring.
(b) 2 part time. "
(b) One ( 1 ) new borehole was drilled in Tombo and eight (8) schemes from springs and streams are envisaged in Magingqi and Qandu. These appear on a works program and will be done as time permits.
MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, arising from the reply given by the hon the Minister of Health in relation to paragraph (a) of the question, he stated that these can be possible reasons. I think the question asks what the reasons are. The impression is created that no investigation was made as to the reasons. Since there is an admission of the fact that there was a delay in the payment of the cheques the question is: What are the reasons? not what could be the reasons. M/HEALTH : Mr Chairman, may I please for the information of the House read the question which was put by the hon member. (Read Question No 25) To my mind this is not specific. For instance, if the question asked was whether I am aware that in a particular tribal clinic the nurses there have not been paid for more than six months I would be giving a definite reply. CHIEF D. D. MLINDAZWE: Mr Chairman, arising from the reply to Question 25 (b) , I would like to know since when the two doctors have been visiting St Patrick's Hospital. M/HEALTH: Dr Dubasi has been taking sessions in this hospital since we took over this Department of Health, and Dr Civas since last year.
(c) Yes. The Department is busy doing catchment planning of the whole district." QUESTION NO. 28:
Mr. B. P. Vapi asked the Minister of Roads and Works:"(a) Is the Department aware of the fact that Government vehicles are misused by many Transkei officials? One can always see these XG vehicles around the concert halls, at night clubs and also in other places which one may not mention . They also pick and drop passengers on bus routes.
(b) If the Department is aware, what steps are being taken to stop this shameful practice by some officials of the government. ” REPLY:
QUESTION NO. 26: Mr. K. G. Nota asked the Minister of Education :-
"(a) Yes.
(b) The control of Government Motor transport vests in the Transport Control officer of each Department. To improve on the existing measures a meeting was held during October 1975 of all Transport Officers to discuss the problems and to find solutions. Various suggestions were made which are still being studied and under consideration.
"(a) Whether the Department has received a letter of complaint from the Mount Ayliff teachers' association against the inspector in charge of this area?
(b) If so, what is the nature of those complaints? (c) Has the receipt of the letter been acknowledged?
In the interim instructions have been issued to ali officials of this Department to the effect that :
(d) What steps does the Department contemplate to take in order to meet the grievances of the teachers?"
(i) All government vehicles must be parked at an approved place by 19h00 (7 p.m.) on weekdays where they must remain overnight and over weekends. Authority must be ob-
REPLY:
"(a) Yes. 123.
CHIEF MINISTER :
tained in all cases where it is necessary for a vehicle to be on the road after 19h00 and over weekends ;
Continue , Mr Chairman.
QUESTION NO. 31 : Mr. K. G. Nota asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:-
(ii) Where authorised passengers are conveyed their names have to be entered in the logbook prior to commencement of the trip;
"(a) How many people were given subsidies to buy bulls during the year 1975 to 1976?
(iii) Particulars of all trips must as far as possible be entered in the logbook prior to to the commencement of the trip;
(b) How much money was spent by the Department for this purpose for the year 1975-76?"
(iv) Arrangements are being made for the appointment of five inspectors who will be in plain clothes. Senior officials of this Department have also been asked to assist in this respect and to stop vehicles allocated to this Department and to check whether the instructions are being complied with. In as far as vehicles allocated to other Departments are concerned senior officials of this Department have been requested to report all suspicious cases for investgation."
REPLY : "(a) During the financial year 1975/76 374 people were given subsidies for bulls purchased . (b) The Department spent R20 750 for the purpose for the year 1975/76."
QUESTION NO. 32 : Mr. K. G. Nota asked the Minister of Roads and Works:-
QUESTION NO. 29: "(a) Whether he is aware of the fact that Ntsizwa Clinic, Ntsizwa Store and Amanzi Tribal Authority Office are now isolated from Mount Ayliff and Kokstad because road No. 98 is literally washed away?
Mr. Norman Sipunzi asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry :"(a) How many stock inspectors mention their grades - have resigned from the service of the Department of Agriculture and Forestry since October 1975 to date?
(b) If so, for how long has this road been impassable?
(b) What were the reasons advanced for resignations?
(c) Can the Minister inform this House why this state of affairs is allowed to continue inspite of numerous appeals from the Magistrate as well as the M.P. for the area?
(c) Have these vacancies been filled and conditions improved to attract employees?"
(d) Can the Minister indicate to this house as to when, in terms of time, this road will be repaired and be finished or made passable?"
REPLY: "(a) and (b) Stock Inspector Grade II - 2. Both resigned to conduct their own businesses; Stock Inspector Grade III — 7. One resigned to further his studies, the others advanced no reasons ;
REPLY :
"(a) Yes. (b) Since the heavy rain started the machinery could not work on the road.
(c) Not all the vacancies have been filled yet. Most of them will be filled by October when the students presently training are employed.
(c) The road was attended to immediately after the complaint was received but being in a mountainous area the repairs could not be completed before the next rain storm came and washed away the incompleted work.
Service conditions have not been changed. The possibility however, of improving them is being investigated."
(d) Weather permitting within two months time.”
QUESTION NO. 30 : QUESTION NO. 33 : Mr. R. S. Madikizela asked the Chief Minister:Chief S. C. Dalasile asked the Minister of Justice:"(a) What are the functions of the Adjustment Committee?
"(a) Why is it that Police stations are always reported short of Government vehicles? (b) Can the Minister put this situation right?"
(b) How many members constitute this body?
REPLY:
(c) Could they be named? If not, why?
"(a) My department has been experiencing difficulties in procuring timeous delivery of police vehicles ordered from manufacturers.
(d) Is the Transkei Government represented in this body? If so, how and by whom?" REPLY :
b) Everything possible is being done to acquire additional police vehicles. 16 new such vehicles were received during the month of March 1976 and manufacturers have intimated that they will be in a position to deliver 45 additional Land Rovers towards the end of the current month."
"Questions (a) , (b) and ( c) should be addressed to Secretary for Bantu Administration and Development, Pretoria, since the Committee consists exclusively of officials and nominees of that department which also controls the workings of the Committee. The answer to question (d) is "No "."
QUESTION NO, 34:
MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, arising from the reply by the hon the Chief Minister , cannot the Chief Minister obtain the information from the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development in Pretoria in order to make it available to this House?
Mr. K. G. Nota asked the Minister of the Interior:"Why old age pensioners for Ntsizwa Administrative Area and Mwaca Administrative area in Mount Ayliff 124.
21
Lance corporal Corporal
were not paid their moneys at the usual centres, but at other centres, which are very far from the usual ones?"
2
(d) All the members of the future Transkeian Army have been attested in the SA Army and as such enjoy the privileges and service conditions of the S.A. Army. They contribute to the S.A. Defence Force Pension Scheme, receive free medical treatment, free uniforms, free board and lodging.
REPLY : "Due to the condition of road No. 98 after the recent rains, the Magistrate could not reach these Administrative Areas and he had to arrange alternative pay points in order to ensure that social benefits were paid out."
QUESTION NO. 35 :
The salary scales are as follows:
Mr. K. M. N. Guzana asked the Minister of Roads and Works:-
Private Lance Corporal
"(a) Whether there is retrenchment of labourers in his Department and if so, why?
Corporal
(b) Whether if the answer to question (a) is yes, any alternative employment is found for or offered to retrenched labourers? and,
: 780 x 60 - 900 x 90 1620 x 120 - R2100 : 1080 x 90 ― 1620 x 120 -- R2580 : 1530 x 90 - 1620 x 120 -2700 x 150 - R3000
The Public Service Commission is at present determining the salary scales and service conditions which will be applicable after Independence when all members will be transferred to the Transkeian Defence Force.
(c) Whether such retrenchment labourers qualify for unemployment benefits?” REPLY:
(e) The proposed organisation of the future Transkeian Defence Force makes provision for a Defence Headquarters and one infantry battalion consisting of a Headquarters, a Čeremonial Company including a band, a Riffle Company with one platoon mounted, and a Headquarters Company. The establishment tables make provision for:
"(a) Yes. The exigencies of the service demand it. (b) No.
c) No." QUESTION NO. 36: Mr. K. M. N. Guzana asked the Chief Minister:-
18 officers, 266 other ranks and 27 civilian labourers.
"(a) The number of Transkeians undergoing army training as at the date of reply? (1) The Defence Act currently being drafted will make provision for a Permanent Force and National Service. All male citizens between the ages of 18 and 60 will be liable to undego military training. The period of training and the number to be called up annually for training will be determined by the Minister of Defence."
(b) The various branches of army training received by members of the Transkei army? (c) What ranks have been attained by members of the Transkei army in the army? (d) What salary is received by members of the Transkei Army, i.e. scale of pay, Pensions and Provident Fund benefits?
QUESTION NO 37: Mr. K. M. N. Guzana asked the Minister of Finance:-
(e) Whether a permanent army force is envisaged and if so, at what numerical strength will it be maintained? and
"(a) The names of all companies public and private) operating in the Transkei under the auspicies of the XDC/TDC and registered with the Registrar of Companies, Pretoria?
(f) Whether military training will be obligatory on members of the public other than those seeking to make the army a career. If so, under what conditions?"
(b) The names of the Directors of these Companies, both listed and unlisted directors?
REPLY:
(c) Whether Transkei Government has any shareholdings in the companies, and if so the percentage shareholding of the Transkei Government?
"a) The present strength of 1 Transkeian Battalion is 162.
(d) The policy of the Government with regard to shareholding by members of the Cabinet in companies both private and public)?
(b) 1 Transkeian Battalion is an infantry battalion. Members are being trained to carry out the various tasks in the battalion. The following are the courses planned for the period August 75 October 76:
(e) If there are any members of the Cabinet already holding shares in companies referred to in Question (a) the extent of their shareholding?”
Basic training courses. Basic Equestrian courses. Instructors course. Chef courses. Administrative Clerk course. Ordance Clerk course. Military Police course. Signals course Medical orderly course. Candidate officer course. Bandsman course. Driving and Maintenance course. Section Leader course.
REPLY: "As regards part (a) and (b) of this question_my department has no information on the matter which would form part of the records of the XDC/TDC and the Registrar of Companies, Pretoria. The matter has however been referred to the X.D.C, with the request that they provide you with any information they have available. It is pointed out, however, that this information is available direct from the Registrar of Companies. (c) No and none. Five directors have, however, been nominated for appointment to the Board of the T.D.C. itself by the Transkeian Government.
(c) Ranks attained to date are: Private
―
159
125.
view of the fact that the departmental suggestion or proposal was rejected by the Umzimkulu Regional Authority? (b) What happened to the farmers' co-operative that was being planned by a senior Agricultural Officer in upper Umzimkulu for the use of some released farms?”
(d) Ideally a minister should have no private business interests as this could lead to a conflict between such private interests and his public duty. However this rule cannot in practice be applied in the absolute and standing rule 163 of this House should apply in such cases. Ministers may not hold shares in or directorships of any business in which the Government has an interest.
(e) No." QUESTION NO. 38 :
REPLY: "(a) As far as the settlement and future use of Trust farms are concerned the Department's objective is to see that such farms are settled and farmed in such a way that the full production potential be achieved on a sustained and economical basis:
Mr. E. Dyarvane asked the Minister of Education :-
As far as the Highlands Trust farm at Umzimkulu is concerned this farm has been settled by the required number of families on the basis of full economic units. In order to obtain its objective on this farm, it is being developed by the Department to such a level where a high standard of diversified production is maintaned. The Department's Swiss herd of cattle is also maintained on this farm. From this herd bulls are bred for use in other areas of the Transkei, making the Transkei less dependant on importations for its requirements of Swiss bulls. Bulls of other breeds imported are also maintained on this farm for resale to farmers.
"What measures are being taken or contemplated to alleviate the very serious shortage of books of reference in the library of the New Transkei branch of Fort Hare University?"
REPLY: "The New Transkei branch of Fort Hare University is not under this Department. It is a Fort Hare branch until such time as the Department of Education takes over, that is, after independence." QUESTION NO. 39: Chief K. M. Mgudlwa asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:-
A high level of production has been reached and this farm is nearly fully developed. It is the intention to turn this farm into a Co-operative farming unit but with the ensurance that such a co-operative farming enterprise be managed on a fully economical basis.
"(a) Is the Minister aware that Locations Nos 46 and 38 in St. Marks district have had no dipping tank since rehabilitation took place? (b) If so, why is your Department not doing anything to provide this facility as the neighbouring tank is about 6 miles away?"
As far as this Department is cocerned the Umzimkulu Regional Authority approved the settlement of this farm as also the concept of co-operative farming.
REPLY: "(a) Yes.
Consideration is also being given to use this farm as a farmers' training centre.
(b) Should additional dipping facilities be required it is incumbent upon the Regional Authority to apply to this Department for construction thereof.
(b) It is accepted that the area referred to is a portion of the area known as the Cole Block of farms near Riverside station.
This Department undertakes the construction of the dipping tanks, if deemed necessary, on the condition that a deposit of R600 is paid by the Regional Authority to the Magistrate of the district."
As in the case of the Highlands farm this is also an area with a high agricultural potential. It has been proposed to the Umzimkulu Regional Authority that this area be developed more or less on the same basis as Highlands but with the emphasis on cattle farming. This proposal has been accepted by the Regional Authority. Such development requires considerable finance. Priority is being given to the developing of the Highlands group of farms which consist of a block of five high potential farms.
QUESTION NO. 40: Chief B. Siyabalala asked the Minister of Roads and Works:"(a) Whether he is aware that the road from Zigudu through Hohita and St. Marks to Qamata is impassable due to erosion after the heavy rains?
The funds available have not allowed for the development of the area referred to."
(b) If yes, how is the public to have access to town for administrative purposes, etc.?"
QUESTION NO. 12: Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Justice:-
REPLY:
"(a) Under what conditions are awaiting trial prisoners kept at police cells and when remanded in prisons?
"(a) Yes. (b) The storm water drain from the Irrigation project passes across the road and has washed it out. The Department is building a bridge across the storm water drain which will be completed in two months time. For the time being traffic is using a detour along the main irrigation canal to reach town."
(b) Are they kept separate from convicted prisoners? (c) What facilities are available to them e.g. receiving visitors, being supplied with a meal brought in by relatives and friends? (d) What toilet facilities are provided for them? Is there any difference from those provided for convicted prisoners?"
QUESTION NO. 41 : Mr. H. Pamla asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:-
REPLY: "(a) What does the Department intend to do with the Trust farms such as Highlands in Umzimkulu in
“(a) Awaiting trial prisoners kept at the police cells
126.
(b) In regard to (a) above:
and in prisons are among other things supplied with bedding, blankets, free meals and are also allowed to smoke. However, for hygienic purposes they are also obliged to keep their section, bedding, cells, toilets, clothing and bodies clean. (b) There are no convicted prisoners kept at the police cells. However, in respect of prisoners remanded in prison a distinction is made between a convicted prisoner who has not been sentenced and a convicted prisoner who has also been sentenced. In terms of the Prisons Regulations unsentenced prisoners are always kept separate from sentenced prisoners.
(i) Was all the equipment in reasonable working condition during the past 12 months? and (ii) If so, why have most roads been in such a bad condition even before the heavy rains? REPLY :
"(a) Bulldozers Graders Trucks
(c) Awaiting trial prisoners kept at police cells and remanded in prisons are as a general rule entitled to receive visitors at least twice a week. As a general rule they are also entitled to be visited by their legal representatives every day during normal working hours. They are also entitled to receive food unfermented drinks, clothing from their relatives and are also given an opportunity to lodge their complaints 1 daily.
(b)
35 89 174
(i) Yes. The availability was approximately 80%.
(ii) I cannot agree that most roads were in a bad condition before the heavy rains. The Department is however handicapped by a a shortage of driver/operators. The shortage of driver/operators is due to the fact that large road construction firms operating in the Transkei have enticed our experienced operators away."
(d) Awaiting trial prisoners use fresh water toilet system where this is available and the bucket system in other places. They are also supplied with disinfectants and toilet paper. However, they are also entitled to bring their own private toilet facilities e.g. toilet paper and disinfectants. There is no difference between the toilet facilities provided for awaiting trial and or unsentenced prisoners and those provided for convicted and sentenced prisoners."
QUESTION NO. 45: Chief K. M. Mgudlwa asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:→ "(a) Is the Minister aware that wheat and lucerne produced by farmers always rot on account of lack of machinery in the Qamata Irrigation Scheme?
QUESTION NO. 43: (b) Is the Minister also aware that the blame put on farmers for poor production under the scheme is at times due to lack of machinery?"
Mr. R. S. Madikizela asked the Chief Minister:"(a) Whether any of the Cabinet Ministers have paid official visits to other countries in recent years. If so, to which countries, and what was the purpose of such visits?
REPLY: "A small propotion of the wheat crop rotted due to the farmers not stacking the wheat properly. Demonstrations were held throughout the scheme to teach the farmers the correct way of stacking wheat. The majority did so correctly and in spite of heavy continuous rains the wheat did not suffer at all. Those who did not stack properly, in spite of all the efforts of the staff to get them to do so, lost their crop as a result.
(b) Could the Honourable Ministers each make a statement to the House on relevant matters bearing on the Transkei and its future? (c) Whether any foreign state representatives have visited the Transkei in recent years. What countries they represented, and what the purpose of such visits was?"
Due to continuous rains it was practically impossible to produce lucerne hay during the past summer. Lucerne cut for baling rotted on the lands as a result. Because of the heavy continuous rains the Qamata Irrigation Scheme experienced the most difficult agricultural season since it was started."
REPLY:
"(a) (i) Yes. (ii) The Chief Minister visited the United States of America in October 1974 as a member of the South African Mission to the United Nations; visited Swaziland during December of same year; and also Britain; Holland; France; Italy; Germany and Finland during the second half of 1975.
(iii) The Minister of the Interior visited the U.K. during 1975.
CHIEF K. M. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman, arising from the reply I wish to ask the hon Minister whether the lucerne was baled. M/AGRICULTURE : Mr Chairman, I personally have not been in contact with operations at Qamata, so I cannot say on the spur of the moment whether it was baled or not, but I am informed, as the reply states, that on account of the rain a lot of damage was caused to produce in Qamata area.
(iv) To accept invitations, learn and create goodwill for the Transkei. I
QUESTION NO. 46.
(b) Ministers will doubtless cover these aspect in their policy speeches.
Chief K. M. Mgudlwa asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:-
(c) Yes. It is not politic to disclose details beyond those already known at this stage. The visitors come to learn and create goodwill."
'Why does his Department not consider employing full-time mechanics for the Qamata Irrigation Scheme for the maintenance of tractors to ensure maximum ploughing time?"
QUESTION NO. 44:
REPLY: Chief N. M. Matanzima asked the Minister of Roads and Works:-
"Qualified mechanics are not available to the Department for stationing at Qamata. An Apprentice mechanic has been stationed at Qamata since early 1975 and has done much to maintain machinery and equipment. With the assistance of the Apprentice Mechanic now
"(a) How many state bulldozers, catterpillars and trucks are provided for road maintenance and repair in the Transkei? 127.
stationed at Qamata the present position as far as maintenance of machinery is concerned, is better than it has ever been.
REPLY: "Members of the police have not discontinued the practice of spot visits to trading stations. As a result of the inadequate number of official vehicles there have been no regular visits as has been the case in the past. In view of the awaited delivery of police vehicles ordered from the manufacturers it is trusted that the position will improve."
The Department also makes use of private mechanics from Queenstown and East London to carry out major repairs. The Department is very much aware of the need for a qualified mechanic but has so far not been able to obtain the service of such a person." QUESTION NO. 47:
QUESTION NO. 51 : Chief G. B. Siyabalala asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry :-
Mr. H. H. Zibi asked the Minister of Roads and Works:-
"(a) How many administrative areas in the St. Marks district are:
"(a) Will the Minister explain why roads generally in the Transkei were in such poor condition prior to the fall of incessant rains despite the huge sums of money voted for construction and repair of roads as well as for the purchase of road building machinery?
(i) permitted to buy cattle? and (ii) not permitted to buy them? (b) How many cattle died in the closed areas between 1973 and 1975?"
(b) How many kilometres were constructed, maintained, gravelled or repaired during the period from 1.1.75 to 31.12.75 in the whole of the Transkei?
REPLY: "(a) There are 42 administrative areas fully rehabilitated and of these 27 are overstocked and no cattle have been allowed to come in by way of permits. There are 15 administrative areas understocked and permits have been made to allow the cattle to come in.
(c) How is road building equipment distributed amongst the nine Regions and how much of it to each Region? (d) Are Road Senior Foremen and/or Superintendents adequately trained on road building, if so, why so many complaints on roads throughout the Transkei?"
(b) There are no records in this office showing cattle which died in closed administrative areas in 1973-1975.
REPLY:
Records are kept on a district level."
QUESTION NO. 48:
"(a) Please refer to my reply to question 44.
Mr. H. H. Zibi asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:-
(b)
"(a) Why were the projects for water services applicable to stabilised areas stopped before completion at the following Administrative Areas in the district of Mt. Fletcher: at Gxaku, Umfanta and Ulundi?
(i) Constructed 18 kilometers. (ii) Maintained 8000 kilometers. (iii) Gravelled or repaired 212,2 kilometers.
(c) Road equipment is distributed amongst the nire regions in proportion to the road distance to be maintained in each region.
(b) When will the Department send technicians to repair the windmills long reported as out of order in the Mt. Fletcher district?"
Maluti Region Umzimkulu Region Qaukeni Region Emboland Region Nyanda Dalindyebo Western Tembuland Gcaleka Region Fingo Region
REPLY: "(a) The work was not stopped as it is being carried out according to a program which has been compiled for a series of districts. Two boreholes were equipped in Ulundi and Gxaku under contract FT/AF. 9/72 because these boreholes were drilled under supervision of the consultants. The other outstanding work will be done Departmentally;
Motor Graders Bulldozers Trucks 6 17 3 4 3 11 12 3 24 10 13 4 6 4 13 10 24 15 7 33 8 14 6 1 12
(d) Supervisory road personnel are adequately trained but the road workers lack motivation to work. Generally the increased volume of heavy traffic causes the road to deteriorate more rapidly."
(b) There is a maintenance unit working in Mt. Fletcher and Matatiele districts. This unit can be greatly assisted to a great extent, if defects are reported directly to the local Agricultural Officer."
MR E. M. DEKEDA: Mr Chairman, I would like to ask whether there are any crushers on these roads. M/ROADS: There are , Mr Chairman. M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman and hon members, this being a historic day for this House when for the first time the House has had to listen until about 1 o'clock to the asking and replying to of questions, I move that this House adjourns until 2.15 in order to continue to enable the members to ask questions and the Ministers to reply. Agreed to.
QUESTION NO. 49: Mr. L. S. Baleni asked the Minister of the Interior:"In a speculator's licence is there any stipulated number of stock upon which the licence must work?" REPLY:
"No."
AFTERNOON SESSION
QUESTION NO . 50:
QUESTION NO. 52 :
Mr. H. Pamla asked the Minister of Education: -
Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Justice :"Why have members of the police force discontinued the practice of spot visit to trading stations at night?"
"(a) Is there any in-service training centre for teachers in the Transkei ? If not, why not? 128.
their grazing by keeping the stock numbers within the carrying capacity of the area. It is not adviseable to introduce extra cattle if an area is overstocked;
(b) Are there any school library books that are supplied to the Junior Schools? (c) Does the Department intend to appoint the following officers who are now conspicuous by their absence namely: (i) Organiser of Arts and Crafts; (ii) Organiser of Music, and (iii) Organiser of gardening?
(b) Yes." QUESTION NO. 54: Chieftainess M. C. Lebenya asked the Minister of Health:-
(d) What are the conditions of supplying garden tools and library books to school?"
"Whether the Department of Health since it has taken over the Seqhobong clinic in Mount Fletcher would :
REPLY:
“(a)
(i) No. (ii) No funds. Due to inflation the Department had to withhold all new projects. In-service training is being organised by the Department inspite of all the militating factors against it at the moment.
(a) Pay the Nurse's salary hitherto borne by the Tribal Authority? and (b) If so, would the salary paid by the Tribal Authority since the take over be refunded to the Tribal Authority? REPLY:
(b) No. But the matter is under consideration.
"a) Yes.
(c) (i) Not at the moment but under consideration. (ii) Yes - post created. (iii) Yes - post created. (d)
(b) Yes." QUESTION NO. 55:
(i) Garden Tools Schools are supplied with the initial equipment by the Department. Additional items are purchased by schools from School Funds. (ii) Library Books - In Post-Primary Schools they are at present purchased from school funds. The Department is however working out a plan whereby schools may purchase library books on the Rand for Rand basis, that is, the supply of library books will be subsidised."
Mr. R. S, Madikizela asked the Minister of Education:"(a) How many pupils in the Transkei wrote the Std. 7 examination in 1975? (b) Of those who wrote the examinations how many passed? (c) Of those who passed how many obtained a first class pass?"
MR H. PAMLA: Mr. Chairman, arising from the hon Minister's reply in connection with in-service courses, I was wondering if it would not be a good idea rather to make use of the Republican facilities for these in-service courses in view of the importance of this inservice teacher training. M/EDUCATION : Mr Chairman and hon members, I want to assure this House that so far as in-service training centre is concerned my department is very, very unhappy about it, especially now that the department has had to embark upon the new structure, which new structure incidentally presupposes our teachers getting to this centre where they are being refreshed, where they are being retrained and the rest of it. I therefore believe I would ever be grateful for any suggestion from the hon members of this Assembly regarding anything to be done so far as the in-service training centre is concerned, but in the not too distant future I shall be reporting to this Assembly, telling this Assembly that steps have been taken by my department so that the in-service training centre comes to fruition.
REPLY: "(a) 26 150. (b) 18 058. 666." (c) TRANSKEIAN ABUSE OF DEPENDENCEPRODUCING SUBSTANCES AND REHABILITATION CENTRES AMENDMENT BILL, 1976: SECOND READING M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, Honourable Paramount Chiefs and Honourable Members, I rise to move that the Bill be read the second time. As you are no doubt aware, prior to the amendment of the Transkeian Constitution on 1 April 1973 the legislative power in respect of all health matters in the Transkei remained vested in the Republican Government and consequently Act 41 of 1971 which, inter alia, provides for the prohibition of dealing in and use of dependence- producing drugs applied in the Transkei. Upon the amendment of the Transkeian Constitution on 1 April 1973 this House became the only competent authority empowered to make, amend and repeal laws in relation to health matters in the Transkei, e.g. Act 41 of 1971 in so far as it applies to our territory.
QUESTION NO. 53: Mr. B. P. Vapi asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:"Seeing that our young men working in the mines are keen on buying cattle of approved quality cheaper in the Transvaal and Orange Free State: (a) Why should the Department of Agriculture and Forestry not see the wisdom of making provisions for obtaining permits to allow the cattle to be introduced into the Transkei?
On 6 July 1973 the Central Government amended Act 41 of 1971 I have just referred to above by inserting section 2A therein. Mr Chairman , I pause here to point out that the provisions of Section 2A introduced by the Republican Government are similar to the provisions of the Bill I am now introducing to this House . As the Transkeian Courts gave effect to the amendment introduced by the Republican Government on the assumption that it was applicable to the Transkei the need for an introduction of a similar amendment by the Transkeian Government never arose. The Appellate Division of the Supreme Court of South Africa has however recently held in State versus Heavyside that Section 2A of Act 41 of 1971 as inserted by the Central Government is,
(b) Will this not be a way of encouraging our young men not to waste their monies in buying gumba gumbas which are of no advantage to our developing state?"
REPLY: "(a) Permits are issued to applicants to introduce cattle into the Transkei where the community of the Administrative Area concerned preserves 129.
I take it that that is the intention, but those who have had the sentence suspended or have had a caution and been discharged can plead a prior acquittal? M/JUSTICE: Autrefois acquit, that's right. MR GUZANA: Yes, I did not want to use the term in case the station-master of Ndabakazi does not understand it. (Laughter) This side of the House supports the bill. As a practising attorney I have had my circumstances for mitigation taken out of my mouth completely. (Laughter) Thank you, Mr Chairman. M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I only have one or two points to which I should like to reply. It is quite true , as the hon the Leader of the Opposition says, that the provision of the law with regard to the dependence-producing substances does not meet the intention for which the law was made. I remember some time back before this amendment, sentences for dagga-dealing and trafficking were very low and lenient, and despite the fact that these sentences have been increased substantially there is no easing off as far as dagga-dealing and trafficking is concerned. I do hope that at an appropriate time there will be need for some commission or inquiry to find out whether these laws are in fact serving as deterrents as they should. I hope that after independence when we have to repeal some of the laws enacted by the Republican Government there will be need for such a commission, because there are various laws where there are many schools of thought as far as they are concerned. I can think of laws like the Immorality Act, for instance. There are various schools of thought as far as that piece of legislation is concerned. MR H. H. ZIBI : Native Administration Act. M/JUSTICE: That will go. That was the Bible that was meant for the administration of the Natives. In any event, I appreciate the remarks made by the hon the Leader of the Opposition. As he has said, dealing in dagga seems to be so lucrative and there are so many ways to get it through. I remember, as he has mentioned, the case of some young men who had a number of pockets of dagga in a coffin. Some of the young men had long dresses and doeks and shawls, and they followed the coffin pretending to be weeping, and the leader had a collar facing backwards as a minister of religion leading the coffin. At intervals he was heard to say: I am the way; I am the light. Death, where is thy sting? They were able to pass through a town and through a cordon of police, and the police gave them no attention. Instead, they had to stand at attention when the coffin passed. (Laughter) The bill was read a second time. M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, the committee stage of this bill will be on Tuesday, 20 April .
in view of the amendment of the Transkeian Constitution Act empowering this house to legislate on health matters, not applicable to the Transkei and the Transkeian Legislative Assembly is the only competent authority to amend Act 41 of 1971 in so far as it applies in the Transkei. Mr. Chairman, as you are also no doubt aware of the easy availability of dependence-producing substances like dagga with its accompanying evils in the Transkei the Government will be failing in its duty if it were not to bring home to the drug pedlar and to the potential drug dealer operating in our territory that the stakes in the drug market are high and harzardous so that what might seem to them to be profitable in terms of hard cash must be outweighed by the price payable in terms of liberty where they are overtaken by the long arm of the law. It is for this reason, Mr. Chairman , that I ask this House to insert an amendment similar to the one applicable to the rest of the Republic of South Africa so as to make it clear to every drug dealer and potential drug dealer that he can expect no mercy in the Transkei when convicted of a crime that has no place in a decent society. It is also in the light of these circumstances that I want it clearly stated through the medium of this Bill that when a person is found guilty of dealing in drugs no suspended sentence should apply. For the sake of uniformity and to cover the interim period it is desirable that the amendment operates with retrospective effect. Without taking too much of your time, Mr Chairman, I now move that the Bill be read a second time. M/AGRICULTURE: I second , Mr Chairman. ' MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I notice that the bill intends to establish uniformity in matters of punishment meted out to offenders in terms of the 1971 Act so that it is not within the power of a judicial officer to impose a suspended sentence or to convict, reprimand and discharge. Probably the body-destroying effects and the psychological harm done to those who use dependenceproducing drugs justify this stringent measure, and nobody can in his sound mind condone the use of these drugs , yet one sometimes asks the question whether or not we are not approaching this problem from the wrong angle and whether or not we should not have legislation which seeks to disabuse people out of the use of these drugs. There are certain people who hold that they need dagga in order to keep normal, and if we go into the rural fastnesses there are men and women who must have their puff every day if they are going to survive. When a person has so acquired a habit to the extent that it is impossible for him to continue to live unless he has his drug, something should be done in our legislation to accommodate such a situation. Then I hold that those who are convicted in terms of the provisions of this Act must go into a rehabalitation centre whether they are drug addicts or not drug addicts themselves, for those who use the drugs must be shown clearly what the effects are on their minds and bodies, and the pedlars must be shown what happens to the people to whom they supply the drug. 1, for one, have been amazed at the various contrivances and devices and subterfuges which will be practised by pedlars in order to pass the drug along. Babies on their mothers' backs lie against their mothers with a parcel between them and the mother's back. Pedlars of fruit and vegetables flavour their merchandise with small parcels of this dagga. Ambulance cars which claim the right of way by sounding a siren are used to get the stuff from one place to another. If we may develop the idea from the interpreter, hearses also and coffins are ingenious devices for distributing this drug. So there need be no mercy given to those who seek to ruin the lives of our coming generation . I notice that the bill seeks to be effcteive retrospectively. I hope this is just purely formal because the provision in subsection (2) irrespective of whether or not the contravention was committed before such date seems to create the impression that anybody who has committed an offence under this Act say in 1975 and has not been sentenced will ipso facto be caught under the provisions of this amendment.
GRANT OF TRUST FARMS TO PARAMOUNT CHIEFS AND OTHERS
The debate was resumed. CHAIRMAN: Hon members, when the House adjourned the motion had been thoroughly discussed, so I shall call upon the mover to reply. MR M. P. LUDIDI : Mr Chairman and hon members, there are times when it is wise not to pay tribute to a hero while he is still alive, and also when a speaker has to be vague in order to find out what the feelings of hon members are on a certain issue, but when it has been implied that the speaker owes some questions to the House then it becomes wise, too, to answer those questions. There are quite a number of points or facts to which I would like to refer and questions to which I would like to reply. One of them is the question of granting personal farms to paramount chiefs. There has been an impression created here that by doing so the Government would in fact be rewarding its political supporters and at the same time entrenching chieftainship. This arose from the fact that some words have been used in the motion such as "faithful service to the country, the Transkei". One of the speakers supporting the amendment raised a question as to whether in reality the paramount chiefs did play a rôle in influencing our struggle towards independence. Although this is an extremely sensitive question I would like to refer to it now that it has been raised. I said in the motion that I am concerned with the act whereby the Transkeian Governmnet acknowledges the status of and the influential and quite significant rôle played 130.
tion, though he has all the legal knowledge in his mind. In the motion we refer to faithful services in the development of their country, the Transkei . "Country" denotes a territorially demarcated area of land inhabited permanently by a specific people and having a government, so that these faithfull services refer to participation in the development or progress progammes both in the public service and the private sector in the Transkei MR GUZANA : Like white entrepreneurs? MR LUDIDI: Yes. .... a country with boundaries defined in Part I of the Transkei Constitution Act. That would mean people like the late Mr Monakali, Mr Madubela, Mr Kakana, the late Messrs Mdledle, Columbus Madikizela and Bulube. Even persons like the hon member for Qumbu, Mr Jafta, and the chief from Qumbu, Chief S. S. Majeke, and including the Leader of the Opposition. Those are the examples of people who have been involved or are involved in public service, and hon members must not be so clouded by matters of a party-political nature and by the imagined correctness of their own ideas that they fail to make either head or tail of the matter at stake. It would be utter foolishness to say I am ruling that the names I have quoted above should be considered the names of prospective farmers. To those people who are wise enough and can interpret the signs of issues, I am merely making an example of what I have in mind of people who rendered faithful services to the Transkei and have participated by their participation in the public service. Now I come to examples of people who have contributed to the development of the Transkei as a country, not as a government or a political party, and have done that by their involvement in the private sector. I have in mind people like Mr Mayaba, Mr Bubu, Mr L. C. M. Ludidi and many unknown others. Now, you must remember that some people are committed to commerce, sometimes because it is the only means of progress available to Africans. There are people who will switch over from commerce to fulltime farming once the opportunity is available. Then there is considerable fear that the selection of Africans will be handled in such a way that only the supporters of the TNIP will get farms, that such selections will be made by tribal authorities or the magistrate but as far as I am concerned selection may be done by a body which will be semi-autonomous like the PSC. MR GUZANA: The PSC? MR LUDIDI : Yes, you don't know what it is. MR GUZANA: The Public Service Commission is the rubber stamp of this Government. It is an unfortunate example.
by the paramount chief in our non-violent struggle towards independence. I did not develop the latter part of the sentence but I would like to air my views and my beliefs in regard to this question, and quite sincerely. To me the paramount chiefs deserve this and I am sure we all feel and appreciate the leadership they have shown us. There is no gainsaying the essential truth that the course of events in the Transkei would have been different here if the Paramount Chiefs of Qaukeni, Nyanda, Western Tembuland, Dalindyebo and Gcalekaland had not played the rôle they did in self-government between the Transkeian Government and the Republican Government. I think if the score in the 1974 elections had favoured a common man like the hon member for Mqanduli then what happened in respect of the Coloured Peoples' Representative Council would have happened here. However, because of what happened there and because of the confidence the Republican Government had in the paramount chiefs, things developed the way they developed. MR K. M. GUZANA: So this is a political reward. Let's face it. MR LUDIDI: That is quite in order. I am now developing my statement. MR GUZANA: Yes, to develop this idea of politi cal reward. MR LUDIDI : So far I have not said I denied whether it is a political reward or not. MR GUZANA: Well, say so. MR LUDIDI : All I am concerned with, Mr Chairman, is that the paramount chiefs do deserve these farms. Again, though it has been argued that selfgovernment originated from the Union Buildings in Pretoria, nobody without stability of mind and patience, without bravery and determination would be willing to be placed on the handling side of politics in selfgovernment politics, I repeat. Our paramount chiefs were brave enough to accept this harzardous position. They were wise enough to accept the policy and were discreet to foresee that systems have some dynamics in them and that for the same reason dynamics never work successfully in the direction and with the purpose for which they were intended . Mr Chairman , there is no better wisdom or vision. It is wise that one should follow the direction of strength instead of being against it, because one following the flow of events will divert somewhere and escape. That is- the vision that is lacking in hon members of the Opposition. CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA : So even if there is a waterfall ahead, will you just drift along? MR LUDIDI: There is no proof in the implication that we just followed the stream and fell I have reasons for saying this. I was in Cape Town and I was one of those who was against this policy, but when I realised that I was wrong in thinking that the paramount chiefs were leading us astray I joined the TNIP. Mr Charman, today Port St John's is ours. Today we talk about an international airport. Just over the weekend the residents of Umtata observed for the first time in their lives the spectacular wonders of the science of parachuting . MR GUZANA: What has this got to do with the paramount chiefs? MR LUDIDI : Today we look forward to an internation hotel of the Southern Sun group of international hotels, and the first people to make use of that hotel below the FM mast I think will be the hon member for Willowvale . (Laughter) Today we wait hopefully for major industries in our territory , for a giant hydroelectric scheme and fullscale mining. MR GUZANA: The paramount chiefs did all that, did they? MR LUDIDI: If the paramount chiefs had not the vision they had, none of this would have been realised today. I still say, Mr Chairman , that our paramount chiefs should be granted these farms. Besides the fact that the paramount chiefs enjoy the status they have, there are people who were against everything in the past but today such people have good positions and are very comfortable . (Interjections) I would be still in Cape Town now. Mr Chairman , there has been confusion caused by the fact that it is alleged "faithful services" to the Transkei may mean faithful services to the TNIP government. There was no need for such confusion, Mr Chairman . Now it is clear that in my reply I must educate the hon the Leader of the Opposi-
MR LUDIDI: For example, the Government may establish an agricultural body whose duty will be to consider the applications of prospective farmers and which will have other relevant duties. You may introduce your own motion in this connection. You are at liberty. Another point is that I do not agree with those hon members who say there should be open sales for farms straight away, because such a system would be clumsy and would limit the government rôle to the availability of the farms. For example, if farms are opened to public sale, many business magnates like hon member for Mount Ayliff will buy three to five farms because they have the money and their farming later on may end up in the kind of farming characterized by absent landlordism, to which the hon member referred yesterday. In a situation like that the Government would have very limited powers to remedy the situation. Furthermore, Mr Chairman, such sales would deny some potential farmers who would have no means to buy farms. A man must be given a probationary period. There is nothing wrong with that. Hon members should remember that it is one thing to be proved a potential farmer theoretically with data such as previous experience on a private farm, interviews and so on, and quite another one to be placed on a farm of more than 50 morgen - and a farm preserved for economic production. My last point, Mr Chairman, refers to the question of the institution of chieftainship. Quite sensitive statements were made by the hon member for Mount Fletcher about chiefs when he said this motion will hasten the day of reckoning for chieftainship, and he also implied that this motion is not a good motion. I want to educate this hon member.
131 .
MR GUZANA: The hon the Minister of the Interior, during a previous debate, drew the attention of this House to this provision and I think the amendment seeks to extend the scope of this motion as it stands, Sir. CHAIRMAN: This motion has been moved by the hon member, Mr J. M. Sigwela, and the same mover of this motion is amending his motion. To me it would appear that it is his motion to which he is entitled to extend or diminish its contents, so I am of the feeling that section 72(d) of the rules does not apply in this instance. I will call upon the mover to proceed.
As far as I am concerned, the yardstick in measuring the goodness of a motion is the belief of the majority of the members of the electorate. The maintenance of chieftainship is based on the wishes of the majority of voters. Mr Chairman, let us not base our views on the interviews we have with urban dwellers, with bank workers and people outside, instead of focussing our attention on the people who have brought us into this House in a desire to dig out exactly what their opinion is. My views are based on my experience of life in the administrative areas. As I hold meetings with people there it is then that I realise what the people feel. You go to an area and hold a meeting there and the people themselves will challenge you and ask if you have the permission of the chief or headman to hold the meeting. Sometimes the chief is not even there. In observing these people you feel they are expressing their true feelings not that they want to further the ends of the chief. However, I don't deny that there are people who want chieftainship abolished. I do admit that there are people who subscribe to the ideas of SASO, but if we passed motions in this House - motions favouring the Democratic Party led by Mr Ncokazi, SASO, the Peoples' Freedom Party and many other freedom organizations - then I do not think we would be representative of the wishes of the majority of the residents in the Transkei. I do not think so at all. I challenge the hon the Leader of the Opposition to address a meeting in my area .... MR GUZANA: Fix the date and the time. I am coming. MR LUDIDI : You will be embarrassed. MR GUZANA: I don't mind being embarrassed. I want that date. MR LUDIDI : In all, Mr Chairman, if they say that this motion will hasten the day of reckoning of chiefs, I don't agree with them. Such ideas detract from the motion and are trying to mislead our people who have voted us into this House. I say that this is a notable motion. I thank the hon members for the part they have taken in this discussion and I appeal to the hon members to support and pass this motion, not the amendment. Amendment put and negatived. Original motion put and carried. MR K. G. NOTA : Mr Chairman, I have consulted the hon Minister concerned in connection with Motion No. 19 and I have decided to handle this motion departmentally. If I do not receive a satisfactory result I shall put it next year. In the meantime I am withdrawing Motion No. 19. Motion withdrawn. CONSTRUCTION OF BRIDGES DISTRICT
MR SIGWELA: I move accordingly, Mr Chairman. The first bridge mentioned in the motion on the Lupapasi is a bridge which has been applied for and the application has been submitted to the regional authority. When I followed up this motion to the offices of the Roads and Works Department I was advised to withdraw the motion. At the time I was applying for negotiations to be effected between the two Governments of the Ciskei and Transkei because the bridge is on the boundary. I was advised to withdraw the motion because it was pointed out that there will be protracted negotiations between the Transkei and the Republican Governments. They advised that when the time comes for amalgamation of the two countries, then I can again bring up this motion. I have been urged by the people to submit this motion because they are in difficulties. That river is a problem. People travel to Lady Frere and to Queenstown and on their return they find the river is in flood and it is impossible to get across. These people now have to take a roundabout way to cross the bridge at Cala and then back again on the other side of the river. Alternatively, they have to go via Indwe which is a distance of 30 miles. That is a great hardship to the people of the area. That is why I ask this House to have this motion placed before our Government. The reason why these people are so keen on the question of this bridge is that the doctors are on the Lady Frere side. Some of the doctors are in Queenstown and if someone falls ill he dies on the way to Queenstown. CHAIRMAN: Hon members, I would like to point out to the hon member for Engcobo that his being crippled in an accident does not license him to break the rules of this House. The hon member knows it is strictly forbidden that there should be any moving between the speaker and the Chair. I humbly warn him not to do so again. MR SIGWELA: Besides this difficulty in transporting people to Lady Frere or Queenstown, there is also a desire on the part of the people to travel to Indwe. The practice today is that people travel in cars and the question of horses is out of date. There are doctors in Indwe and that is where we take our sick people. I have said enough on the first part of the motion and I now pass on to the second part. Upper Lafuta stream is quite a large river and when the government bus travels from Ndabakazi to Cala it has to cross this river. The road from Ndabakazi to Cala crosses the Tsomo River and then it goes to Lafuta, which is a big river. When such rivers are in flood they are impassable. Besides the river being in flood the causeway there is dangerous. The water flows over slippery rock. The hon the Minister of Health also noticed that when he visited us there and he realised that the causeway was a dangerous one because the rocky bottom is very slippery. a cat slip over the side it will go into deep water. This road connects with a road to Indwe and on to Queenstown , traversing about four areas leading to the main road. During a recent period of heavy rains children could not even go to school. There is no alternative road and these children have to cross this river. The only road open to them is the road across this river. This road is also useful even to business people there, because their goods have to be transported over it. Businessmen on one side of the river cannot cross to the other side sometimes for two weeks. This is a machanized age and I appeal to the hon members of the House to pass this motion. There are few people who know this area but I am now expressing the opinion of the people of those areas. People have approached the magistrate and other officials to appeal for this bridge on the Upper Lufuta, but they can do nothing. Even if we submit an application nothing happens . I - am happy
: XALANGA
MR J. M. SIGWELA: Mr Chairman and hon members, before I start debating this motion I beg the permission of the House to amend it as follows: That after the word "constructing" the article "a" be deleted and the word "bridges" substituted for the word "bridge", followed by a subsection, (i); then after the word "Lupapasi" the addition of the following words: "(ii) on Upper Lafuta River on the road branching from Ndabakazi to Cala to join a main road from Cala to Queenstown in the Xalanga district. " The motion will therefore read :"That in the opinion of the Assembly the Transkeian Government should consider the advisability of constructing bridges --(i) on the Indwe River on the road from Cala to Lady Frere, Indwe and Queenstown through Mceula and Lupapasi; and (ii) On Upper Lafuta River on the road branching from Ndabakazi to Cala to join a main road from Cala to Queenstown in the Xalanga district." MR K. M. GUZANA : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, we have had precedents created here when an amendment was declared to be out of order at the instance of the hon the Minister of Agricultural Faithfulness. (Laughter) Rule 72(d) says an amendment shall be relevant to the question on which the amendment is proposed and shall not seek to extend the scope of the motion. M/AGRICULTURE : This is not an amendment. It is a motion. 132.
beg to give notice that on 15 April 1976 I propose to move the first reading of a bill to apply a further sum of money towards the service of the Transkei for the financial year ended on 31 March 1975 for the purpose of meeting and covering certain unauthorised expenditure.
that the hon Minister concerned is amongst us. I would be very happy, Mr Chairman, if these bridges could be constructed overnight so that we have an open road to the desired points and that we have no obstruction on the road to Queenstown. From Ndabakazi one has to go round about to look for a place to cross and the journey is lengthened by 30 miles. Should this bridge be constructed the journey to Queenstown would be shortened and in that way we could save petrol. The modern way is that the road should be as short as possible. I have not much to say and I don't think anybody will oppose this motion because no-one here knows anything about the area and the road I am discussing. Even the hon the Leader of the Opposition does not know anything about the road. I am not afraid of any hon member expressing opposition because no member knows anything about this bridge we have applied for. I move that the motion be passed by this House. I now feel that if I get a seconder to this motion there will be no need for further discussion. CHIEF K. M. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I second the motion. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon members, please allow me to sit down while I speak bceause I am a cripple. When you think of Cripple Care people like me you should know they should be well looked after. The Democratic Party has no objection whatesoever to a motion of this nature. The mover says he fears no-one opposing this because noone knows that area. Life is so important that I maintain that not one person would be in a position to object to a motion of this nature. It is of vital importance that bridges should be constructed wherever possible. So important is this motion that it reminds me of a certain motion which I at one time piloted in this House, but I think I will have to renew my application in that regard. The hon Mr Pamla is putting a question, but at that time he was not yet a member of this House. It is a usual occurrence that our children are swept away by floods when they try to get to school. As sensible people we cannot allow that state of affairs to continue where our children are swept away on their way to school. I know that area well -- even the spot where it is proposed to construct bridges. We use those roads often. I have met the difficulty that when I came once to the Indwe River it was in flood and I had to spend a lot of money to go round the long way. People are telling me to hurry up. They want to go so that they can get to a place where they can buy any quantity of liquor. (Laughter) In fine, Mr Chairman, I say those bridges should be constructed. The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 14 April 1976.
NOTICES OF MOTION 40. CHIEF G. W. NKWENKWEZI gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government be requested to send a copy of every circular sent to the magistrate to each head of a tribal authority." CONSTRUCTION OF BRIDGES : XALANGA DISTRICT The debate was resumed. CHAIRMAN: Hon members, when we adjourned yesterday I think this motion had been sufficiently discussed, so I shall call upon the mover to reply. MR J. M. SIGWELA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I am thankful that the discussion regarding this motion has gone smoothly and I am happy that hon members have appreciated the hardships under which those people live. I thank the members very much for what they have done to assist those people and I have nothing further to add. Question put and motion carried unanimously. ERECTION OF TRAINING SCHOOL IN ST MARK'S DISTRICT MR J. M. SIGWELA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should consider the advisability of building a training school for boys and girls in Administrative Area No. 39 in the district of St Mark's." Mr Chairman, there is a great shortage of teachers all over. In all the districts of the Transkei there is a general shortage of teachers. I shall be brief in piloting this motion. There are 922 Junior Secondary Schools in the Transkei. I am not saying anything about the two districts of Glen Grey and Herschel which have just been incorporated in the Transkei. A total of 26 150 children wrote the JSS certificate last year and of that number 18 000 plus passed the examination and 666 obtained first-class passes. Those children have now been promoted to Std 8 this year. Let us say that the same number will write the examination this year and the number promoted to Std 8 will be the same. These thousands write examinations at the end of the year. Children differ in ability. Some children have to take a matric course although they are unfit for that course and are unable to master the work. Some children even apply at our Matanzima High School to be admitted to senior classes. We examine the symbols obtained in the lower classes and find they are not fit to be admitted to senior certificate classes. The children were not admitted at Ciskeian schools because they were unfit for matric class and the same pertains in the Transkei. We try to advise the children that they cannot cope with the matric course because they are sure to fail. I tried to obtain places for them by telephoning the Arthur Tsengiwe training school, but the school was so full that even the local children could not be admitted. These Xalanga children and others from outside Xalanga cannot be admitted anywhere. There are some who have to go to employment. There are only nine training schools in the Transkei and they are so far apart. This side there is Butterworth, Clarkebury, Sigcau, Bensonvale, Mount Arthur in the Gley Grey district, Maluti in Matatiele district, Cicira in Umtata, Shawbury in the Qumbu district and Arthur Tsengiwe in our area. This would be useful in the framework of training the nation. We are short of teachers, thus while we employ teachers even if they have not taught for years, we take them as long as they had attended a training school at some time. The idea in this motion is of great importance in our area, which is the Emigrant Tembuland area, and I know that most areas throughout the Transkei are in this difficulty. Some children actually left Mount Arthur to look for accommodation in Ma-
WEDNESDAY, 14 APRIL 1976 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon members, I have been advised that two buses will leave Nyandeni for the funeral of the late Paramount Chief of the Rarabes on Sunday at 1 o'clock. Anybody who would like to board one of those buses can do so. I have also been advised that the condition of the hon the Paramount Chief of the Gcalekas has improved and I am happy to report that he may join us next week in this Assembly. TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS
CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon members, in accordance with the proviso to section 12 (4) of Proclamation R334 of 1963 I lay upon the table a return reflecting particulars of all persons appointed to posts higher than the entry grades of the Government Service since the commencement of the preceding ordinary session of the Legislative Assembly. NOTICES OF BILLS M/FINANCE:
Mr Chairman and hon members, I 133.
luti but there is no space for them. The Maluti children also cannot be admitted. They try Clarkebury but again there is no possibility of gaining admittance. We decided to apply for a training school for the people of Western Tembuland. Arthur Tsengiwe cannot accommodate even the Cala children. There is a school right in the village. There are over 120 children in Std 7 and if there are 120 successes those children now have to be crowded into that school and no more can be admitted. We would like our children to be admitted freely because they are all Transkeians. We therefore decided to apply for a training school in this Administrative Area No. 39. We know that the roads leading to this area are passable and that would hasten the building of the school and we think that we shall get the co- operation of the people of the locality in the building of that school. I think we could so work that the school will be in working order in 1977. The shortage of training schools has created a difficulty. There are many Xalanga children who cannot be admitted to the_training schools and they are just roaming the streets . The same applies to other localities. If that school could be built even the Maluti children would benefit. Bensonvale children would also be admitted. I name these distant places because I know them and have worked there. I move this motion without any fear, because I know it will receive the support of this House . Even my beloved son will not have much to say against it. (Laughter) I know he will support it. CHIEF G. B. SIYABALALA : I second the motion . MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, as a beloved son I support this motion completely. (Laughter) One is sometimes taken aback at the lackadaisical attitude of the Department of Education towards the education of the African child. One is sometimes compelled to accept the unpalatable fact that there is little concern for the training of the readers of the future, for even the schools that do provide instruction for our children leave much to be desired . Nay, I should not have said "leave much to be desired" - I should have said they are places of every sorry degradation. One cannot help but register a sense of shock when one comes to these schools in the Transkei to find that the teachers are concerned mainly and rather inadequately with the teaching of the three R's and the moral and physical aspect of education is wholly neglected. What is more degrading than to walk into a classroom that should accommodate 30 pupils and find about a hundred- odd pupils sitting cheek by jowl, some over one another, others on the floor, still others standing against the window, and this is supposed to be a place of learning and instruction. In effect the accommodation problem merely results in wasted effort on the part of the teacher, wasted attendance on the part of the pupils and almost what we would regard as a callous disregard of the potentialities of these pupils as responsible citizens of the future. MR H. PAMLA: We inherited this system. MR GUZANA: There has always been a very popular excuse that we have inherited these handicaps and disadvantages from Bantu Education. MR PAMLA: What was the aim of Bantu Education? MR GUZANA: I am not interested in accepting that as an explanation, particularly as we have had 13 years of handling our own education and we have not had a single school in the Transkei of which we could justly be proud. The hon member requests this Government to consider the advisability of establishing a training school in the administrative area known as Banzi. The rather polite terminology used in this motion hides the imperative need - the compelling need for the establishment of such a school. He has listed some of the disadvantages flowing from the lack of a training centre in this area, but pick out any district in the Transkei and you find these disadvantages duplicated. Nothing is more pathetic than to find a parent whose financial resources are limited, traipsing through the Transkei seeking to find entrance for his or her pupil, and every time the door is shut in the face of the parent who wants to make a better being of his child — shut in the face of the child who seeks to be a better being in the future . Thus we begin to contribute to a cummunity of persons frustrated, both adults and children, who may well be the problem of this Government , in 134.
the future. When the Regent Café in Alexandra Road first started trading there, there was a young boy of about five years of age who used to make a living by cleaning the windows of cars parked there. He has now grown to the age of 13 years and is still wiping clean the windscreens for a ten cent tip. Who knows that this boy could well have been an Einstein. MR H. PAMLA : Did you say an Ahrenstein ? MR GUZANA : Not Ahrenstein, you Communist. (Laughter) Who knows what qualities and skills are lost merely bceause we fail to provide the opportunity that people are eager to take advantage of. We have prided ourselves on the fact that we have done away with Bantu Education , but our processes in education , our movements, our schemes are no different than the handicapping schemes which characterized Bantu Education. MR PAMLA: May I ask you a question? MR GUZANA: Our children who have not reached the age of MR PAMLA: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, may I ask a question? MR GUZANA: I don't want questions. That is not a point of order. MR PAMLA: I feel the speaker has been misleading the House on one point. He says we are still doing exactly what was done by Bantu Education and yet he is aware that we changed the medium when we took over. MR GUZANA: I don't mind whether you call prickly pear a fruit or an orange - it still has thorns. (Laughter) You call a person John and another James, but he is still a human being. All our education is conditioned to Pretoria, to the Department of Bantu Education. Our examinations are run by Pretoria (Interjections) so don't simulate a change without effecting a change. The Department of Bantu Education insisted that all teaching centres must be registered with the department and must receive official recognition, and for the last ten years this Government has set its face against the establishment of private schools. Our pre-school child is left to the teaching in the streets and in the alleyways. We have no kindergarten schools. MR C. DIKO : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, what is this man doing distributing papers here? Is he a member?
CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR GUZANA: Why is there a criminal neglect of a child at its most impressionable stage of growth? This is something about which we should shed tears. I have known of departmental secondary schools where boys and girls are accommodated indiscriminately in the administrative areas, bundling into groups, exchanging places of abode and sleeping. Situations such as this completely nullify the five hours' teaching in the classroom. Boys can spend the night in the girls' hut; the girls can spend a night in the boys' hut and parents have to tolerate that situation just because they hope in the classroom something will be passed on to those children. MR PAMLA: Form a parent/teacher association. MR GUZANA: How do we look at this situation? Can we really raise our heads and walk upright and straight in the face of these degrading and demoralizing circumstances ? (Interjctions) I wish to emphasize my support of this motion. The hon member for Butterworth says this is love play. That was you who said so. The trouble is it is not the love play of boys and girls, but men with beards take advantage of this situation. (Laughter) And they come here and tell us this is love play. Rapacious animals - that is what they are. (Interjections) I know, because there are many young girls who fall by the wayside because they have become victims of this situation. I suppose for some of us this does not matter because the man never carries a big stomach for nine months. I want us to view this situation very, very seriously, hon members. Not only is the hon member who brought this motion seeking to have an institution for the training of our children but this is a saving act to save the moral character of our children. Those young boys and girls who have to move from place to place, who have to beg for accommodation and become the victims of conditions placed upon this situation is too them before they are given a hut ghastly for us to take lying down. I therefore support
tion and they will see, as we are pointing out, that we have no financial difficulties. Before we introduced this motion to the House we first of all had our own discussion to plan what to do if we are met with the reply that there are no funds. We hope the department will see that this motion goes through and that we are allowed to go ahead with this. People are surprised that there are only nine training schools in all the 27 districts of the Transkei. During independence where shall we get teachers if we do not hasten the building of more training schools? That is why we are urging the Department of Education to hasten the building of training schools. Mr Chairman, I don't think it is necessary to labour any point in this motion. The mover spoke clearly and I am sure we are expressing the feeling of the whole House because every_region needs a training school. I hope that both the Departments of Education and Roads and Works will cooperate with us in this. We say we can get past the excuse of no funds and the money can be obtained if we want to move. I therefore support the motion and I plead for action in 1977.
this motion very strongly, Mr Chairman. I feel this education hunger which has hit the parents, which has hit the children of the Transkei should be met immediately. No country in the world can say that it has too many educated people, but every country will hang its head in shame if it breeds, by neglect, skollies, thugs, thieves, housebreakers, because they have not had the opportunity to go to school and qualify for positions of responsibility. The excuse may well be given that we haven't the teachers to man such a training school, but I say this Government should disengage itself of its ethnic orientation and get teachers from anywhere and everywhere, because we want the man in the classroom who will deliver the goods. We are not going to wait for independence, because independence is not going to give you a Utopia. The week before last there were sports at the Rotary Stadium in Ngangelizwe and I have never seen more undisciplined pupils than those who were congregated there. When sports were over they fled into town and you should have heard them speak. You should have seen them misbehave because our teachers neglect to build up self-discipline in the pupils. MR H. PAMLA: That is for the parents.
MR L. L. 'MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I crave the indulgence of the Chair because I am more crippled now than ever before. (Laughter) In supporting the motion by the hon member from Xalanga I have to remark as follows: The mover of the motion was a student teacher and finally a teacher trained at Clarkebury whose motto was "Lift as you rise". That is where the hon Chairman got his matric, in fact. (Laughter) I got my teacher training at Clarkebury with flying colours also. Now, this is a very important motion because it concerns education. Education is our only political safety in so far as we are the oppressed peoples of this country, and outside that ark I can see nothing but a deluge and a cascade of water. (Laughter) Education as such has to include scholarstic stimulus and scholarship, I must submit, Mr Chairman, is coterminus with social progress. It is either the scholar who makes or unmakes society and the training of teachers is the most important aspect of our educational programme. Imagine in the 29 districts when there are only nine teacher training schools and some of them only cater for either boys or girls. Not all of them cater for both. The then Clarkebury of ours and of our times then used to cater for both boys and girls. Oh, what an atmosphere, Mr Chairman! We shared ideas irrespective of our sex. During the leave-out sessions we shared mixed dinners. Is that the order of this day? That is the question I pose. The leader of the NDP has mentioned something about the teaching of the three R's because those are taught in the training school. It is not only the three R's in fact, Mr Chairman, that are taught in the training school. There are the three C's that are taught in the training school; there are the 5 H's that are taught in the training school. GOVT MEMBER: What are the H's? MR MGUDLWA: I will tell you. Then there are the three W's. First and foremost, for the information of hon members who have never had the opportunity to be in a training school, the three R's are Reading, Writing and 'Rithmetic. Now there are the three C's. That is the importance of a training school. We have to teach a child Character, Courtesy and Citizenship. (Laughter) Then there are the five H's. You educate the Head of a child, you educate the Heart of the child and then you educate the Hand of the child and suo sponte Health and Habits. Again there are the three W's. That is now if you are a teacher, and a born teacher, you stand up and you say to the child: From now henceforth throughout your life know that "I cannot" does nothing; "I will try" does something and "I will" works wonders. That is the three W's. (Laughter) You thought adversely in fact, because your mind is soiled, hon Deputy Chairman. The importance of establishing a training school is that at Location No. 39 called Banzi in the district of St Mark's it will be a step forward. That is for boys and girls. I wonder, Mr Chairman, if the mover did consult the Planning Section of the Department of Education. Perhaps if he went there they were not available. The hon Minister today is not available. I wonder where he is, because such a motion being discussed demands his presence, because the location of that school is most important
MR GUZANA: Some hon member said not only are the teachers responsible, but also the parents. I am happy that the parents who are in this House acknowledge that, and that they realise the joint responsibility of bringing up a human being adequately and that the responsibility must be shared by the parent, by the teacher. It is not the natural parent but everybody who is in the standing of a parent in relation to a child but what do we find? If you reprimand someone else's child the natural parent says: Who does he think he is? MR PAMLA: Those are the characteristics of Western civilization. MR GUZANA: However much we are westernized there are certain basic norms and accepted forms of discipline which cannot be improved by westernization. If anything, they are corrupted by westernization, so that if we become westernized so must we keep those disciplines which made you what you are today. Mr Chairman, I could speak at length on this subject because it touches me very closely, and I plead with this Government to commit itself positively in this matter of education. Encourage the establishment of private schools; pass on the responsibility of establishing kindergarten schools to the parents and let the parents run these schools ; acknowledge the importance of this pre-school training by giving nominal grants to show approval. My last word is that the Department of Education in consultation with the Cabinet should overhaul its programme of school provision, classroom provision in the Transkei. The key to a prosperous community and to a well-ordered society is education. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHIEF G. B. SIYABALALA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support the hon member for Xalanga who moved this important motion. I whole-heartedly support him and also the hon the Leader of the Opposition, particularly on the points he has stressed in connection with the motion. I will just mention a few things regarding this request. The motion does not warrant a long debate or discussion because it is self-explanatory. The motion explains that there is a need for this training school. In 1974 the regional authority of Western Tembuland introduced this motion. The whole area supported it and it was passed to the Department of Education. Ever since then members of the regional authority and other people have been waiting to see what has happened. That is why the hon member for Xalanga has brought this motion before the House. By placing it before the House we hope that the hon the Minister of Education will take the matter seriously and that something will be done this year. We are aware that the department might point out that there is a shortage of funds, but all we need from the Department of Education is the green light to go ahead because money is not our problem. Should the Department of Education go to the Department of Roads and Works and put the rubber stamp on this motion then we have no difficulty with this and we can make it possible by 1977. I am glad the hon the Minister of Roads and Works is here and I am sure he will consult the hon the Minister of Educa-
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notice of the Government by piloting this amended motion. Mr Chairman , if I am not making a mistake, last year a law was passed in this Chamber that a man can marry as many wives as he likes. (Laughter) Now that this has been introduced it comes at a stage when we are interested in marrying as many wives as possible and not being aware how you will be able to maintain such a number of wives. Suppose you are a chief or, say, a taxi driver and you collect some women in your taxi and drive along and you desire, in fact, to marry these women. Some of them have been school-teachers. You make some of them leave their paying jobs and when they come to stay with you they find they have only married a man without means. Once again these poor women go and look for work and they get employment. Perhaps your car meets with an accident and is damaged and you are asked by these people what has happened and you say the car is broken and now you are rejected by them. (Laughter) Your children now starve because they have to go without food because you are entirely dependent upon the taxi to earn money. When this woman obtains employment she is told that because she is married she cannot be employed on the permanent staff. Should she be employed in a temporary capacity no deduction is made for a pension, but what is important is that having been allowed a pension this would provide for the future of this taxi driver. The taxi driver has no such pension arrangements for the future. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR MGUDLWA: As lawmakers, why can't you make provision to protect the interests of such women? It is of great importance that these women should be employed permanently and not on a temporary basis, because I learn that all married women employed in the Health Department are employed in a temporary capacity and are therefore not entitled to a pension. When you consider the question of these women in this respect, that they are qualified and in fact they support their homes and are the breadwinners, why should they not be provided with pensions so that these women know they will have something in store for them in the future? This is my motion and I do not propose to be lengthy. The debate was adjourned.
in view of the present training schools. That is, the location of the school taking into consideration the other training schools . In fact, so many training schools are needed that should accomodate boys and girls in the Transkei if at all we are to produce something worth boasting about, even be it before or after independence , because our education must emphasize the principle of what is right as distinct from who is right. (Laughter) Mr Chairman, I will not be lengthy but I wish to say it is not necessary for us to go on with this discussion, seeing it is the feeling of all the hon members that it should receive full support. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN : Hon members, this is definitely a non-contentious motion and there are no intricacies in it which might necessitate a long argument. I am therefore of the opinion that we should call upon the mover to reply. MR J. M. SIGWELA : Mr Chairman and hon members , I am very thankful that the House has received this motion so well. As we are discussing this motion I have a vision of something terrible to come. When I realise that we have children in the sub-standards and those children sit in those overcrowded classrooms , examination time comes along and these children have not been sufficiently instructed to pass the sub-standards. It is my experience that if a child is not well founded in Sub A he carries those difficulties and handicaps to matric. Another difficulty is that children in the higher classes cannot be accommodated in any of our schools. Even when they reach the higher classes they are not sufficiently grounded. Pity some of them being introduced into a class for which they are not fit. There is a case of a child from Matatiele who came to our area. That child was an orphan and was going about the country looking for accommodation in any of our schools. I told her there was no possible accommodation, but the child just remained in the area and I persuaded the principal eventually to admit her. I saw the difficulties she would encounter on the return journey, having no money and being a girl. All that is due to lack of accommodation. I took this child for extra lessons because there was no accommodation and afterwards persuaded the principal to accommodate her in our own Matanzima School. I appeal to the hon Ministers concerned when you meet in the Cabinet, please don't forget this very important motion. Your decision should not be based on the excuse that there is no money. Here are the chiefs of the area who stated in this House that money is no problem as far as this motion is concerned. We appeal that this school be started in 1977. Motion put and carried unanimously.
AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on a Government Pension Scheme for Married Female Employees was resumed. MR H. PAMLA : Mr Chairman and hon members, I rise to move an amendment to an amended motion. Now, amendment to Motion No. 25 is as follows:After the word "should", delete all the words and substitute the following:"continue to admit into the Transkeian Government Pension Fund all married women who are employed in a permanent capacity."
GOVERNMENT PENSION SCHEME FOR MARRIED FEMALE EMPLOYEES MR L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon members, in limine I wish to crave the indulgence of the House to amend my motion as follows :- That after the word "establishment" the following words be added :"comma and comma prior to this all married women hitherto employed temporarily be employed permanently to enable these to enjoy such a scheme." CHAIRMAN: Is there a seconder to the amendment? MR S. A. XOBOLOLO : I second, Mr Chairman. MR MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman, as I am piloting this motion I believe there will be no opposition .... MR R. S. MADIKIZELA : Mr Chairman, I would that the Secretary should read the amendment by the hon member for Engcobo so that we should know exactly what it is. SECRETARY: The motion as amended reads: "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should consider the advisability of introducing at its earliest convenience, its Government Pension Scheme for all married women employees who are employed permanently in all its establishment, and, prior to this all married women hitherto employed temporarily be employed permanently to enable these to enjoy such a scheme." MR MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon members, it has been observed that all married women do not enjoy a pension. It became necessary as a member elected by the electorate that I should bring this to the
The motion will now read as follows :-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should continue to admit into the Transkeian Government Pension Fund all married women who are employed in a permanent capacity." Mr Chairman, I will begin thus: The hon members in all the three Opposition parties the New Democratic Party, the old Democratic Party and the independent members must learn to introduce reasonable motions into this House. I sat here listening to the mover speaking of women placed in awkward positions. MR K. M. GUZANA : Temporary employees. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, the hon member misconstrues and, in fact, is misleading this House in trying to gain claptrap. I said "women who are employed temporarily”. In fact, Mr Chairman, I feel strongly against that because he has misused this House and he cannot use such language. He must withdraw. CHAIRMAN : Hon members, you misinterpreted the mover. You should therefore withdraw your misinterpretation. MR PAMLA: Mr Chairman , in Baca speaking I withdraw the expression. (Laughter) Now, Mr Chairman, I want to warn hon members once more to do 136.
some research before they bring any matter into this House for discussion. For instance, the motion under question now says the Government should consider the advisability of introducing a pension scheme for married women, but this is already in operation. Now, to prove to you that this side of the House will do a little research I will read to you section 15(a) of Proclamation R334 of 1963, and this is a photostat copy, for your information. Section (a) says : “A female officer who marries shall be deemed to have retired voluntarily from the government service in contemplation of marriage with effect from the day of her marriage or if she has discharged her duties on that date with effect from the day following the date of her marriage unless the Commission recommends and the Minister approves that she be retained in the government service." Now you can see why I say that the Transkeian Government should continue to admit into the Transkeian Government Pension Fund all married women who are employed in a permanent capacity. Now, if you had done research you would know that there are married women who are permanent and are therefore enjoying this pension scheme. In fact, I would like to place on record here a note of great appreciation for what the Public Service Commission has done for married women. Before I deal with the reasons why married women cannot automatically be employed permanently, I would like to take the hon members back to what the position was before we became a government. You know that in the Cape there was a Cape Pension Scheme for teachers, and are you aware that a number of female teachers lost huge sums of money when they decided to get married after long service? There was no provision to refund their own contributions to the scheme. If she wanted to reap the fruits she had to remain a spinster for the rest of her life. For your information, even those who did remain spinsters received what one may call a mere pittance. In Natal there was no pension scheme for African teachers. If you taught in a government-aided school you would teach for the whole of your life and get an ordinary "Thank you" at the end of it. If you taught in government schools then you were entitled to contribute to what was called the Natal Provident Fund and the conditions that were laid down in Ordinance No 42 of the Natal Provincial Adminitration made things very difficult for people to retrieve their money. I wonder if you are aware of the fact that in the past the various Provincial Administrations made things very difficult for people to retrieve their money. I wonder if you are aware of the fact that in the past the various Provincial Administrations were not prepared even to deduct from your salary insurance premiums, and the result was a lot of people left the service with no provision whatsoever. I think we should be grateful when we find a young state catering for married women who, in fact, do have breadwinners. I wish to remind the mover that it is only Transkeian married women who benefit and no other women in the Republic ever benefit from a pension scheme.
MR PAMLA: Now, what usually obtains in any government system is that the employees are classified on a merit basis and those married women who have proved themselves to be capable, proficient professional and so on are given this opportunity, which must be approved by the Minister. In other words, you retain the services of the indispensable married women for the benefit of the country. Those who choose to get married to taxi boys and must use their government money to support their taxi boy husbands must not go teaching. I want to say very emphatically that we would all appreciate seeing all married women benefiting from a pension scheme, but we must face the practical realities of the situation and we simply will be shortsighted people if we allow every married woman to be permanently employed. I will tell you a simple case which I experienced at my place some time back, where a staff nurse was transferred to go and serve at a rural clinic. The husband came all the way from Durban and told the matron that his wife was not going there and she must resign immediately. I have also known cases where a husband would say, if his wife was a teacher and was expected to go to a certain conference, that as long as she was his wife she was not going to that rubbish. Now, how can you make a law to compel someone else's wife to be employed by you permanently? I think the present regulation is very sensible, where these women are graded and they are afforded this opportunity on the basis of merit. I would also like to say that if our African married women in the Transkei want to raise standards in their various professions it is high time they got together and formed associations. If these women had their own organizations I dare say this motion should have come here through the influence of their own organization. You perhaps do not realise how difficult it is at the moment to get African teachers in the Transkei to organize themselves effectively as a body to defend their own rights. If our teachers were to organize themselves properly within, say, three or five years had reached the extent of authority of a Female Teachers' Association, the position would improve in the profession most wonderfully. I think this motion requires no further argument because the amendment is quite self-explanatory. It is quite clear that the man who brought the motion here did no research and as a result I can see from his face that he quite agrees with that and there is no need to proceed with this motion. M/EDUCATION: I second the amendment. MR P. N. NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand to support the motion, and the amendment to that motion introduced by the mover of the motion. This motion as amended is clear and it must be clear to all the hon members of the House, because it gives assistance to ladies in the Transkei. These ladies I refer to are married women who will be employed by the Government and also those who are already in government employment. This amended motion goes further to request that even the temporarily employed women should enjoy a pension. I don't know why those people fail to think. It does not matter how the matter has been placed, but a sensible person will go into it and put it in the correct form. I do not regard it as being backward when one feels he must give assistance to someone else. Education does not mean that you must oppress your own people, because even now the amendment amending the amended motion is oppressing the people. (Interjections) He also realises that the intention of the original motion was to help those people who are yet to be employed. Even in the case of the nurses, they are people who were married whilst they were in employment. The motion is clear because it seeks that all married women permanently employed by the Government should contribute to a pension fund. It is a pity that some hon members came into this House although they are ignorant and do not know anything, such as the black member there. MR H. PAMLA: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, the hon member is now being personal and I object to his remarks. MR NKOSIYANE: This is what I say. This motion is so important that it is worthy of your full support because it aims at assisting married women teachers. All those who are nursing and all those who are married will be very pleased to hear that Ntabayitshi has spoken
MEMBERS: They do in the OPPOSITION Republic. MR PAMLA: Now, you will surely appreciate that it is extremely difficult for any government to legislate to the effect that all married women must be employed permanently. There are two major problems which will face any government in this project. If you accept a married woman as a permanent employee of the State you will have to give her six months for accouchement three months before confinement and three leave months after, because if you employ her permanently you would be obliged to pay her salary. If you take the case of female teachers, here you have a local school and in this locality there are about ten qualified teachers and you have vacancies for six females in this school. You will have to employ these six out of turn locally and you can only substitute them if they resign, die or go on maternity leave; and as you draw the substitute still have the four women who are also wanting employment at this school. What would be the purpose of sending ten young girls from that locality to a training school to go and train as teachers? Where are they going to find employment? CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA: There is a shortage A over. 137.
member from Umzimkulu. ( Laughter) I hope the son of Pamla will withdraw his amendment. REV. G. T. VIKA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I rise to speak in favour of the amendment. In fact, Mr Chairman, I think in this motion one sympathizes with the mover rather than the motion itself. As we all know, these are the years of Women's Liberation. Women are trying to tell us we must free them from the oppression they have suffered for years. I say I sympathize with the mover because he must have been suffering from the strains of his household. (Laughter) He has been told he has been making a lot of noise here but he has never thought of his better half. In order to submit to that discipline he has come out with this motion. However, Mr Chairman, I think we in the Transkei, it must be stated, have been ahead of the times as far as Women's Lib is concerned. We have women serving in the highest offices in our government and we recognize all women according to their merit. I think what should be made clear to this House is that the amendment does not say women should not be employed permanently in the government service, nor does it say they should not be admitted to the pension fund. All we are saying is that the Government must continue what it is already doing --- to admit to the Transkei Pension Fund all married women who are employed permanently. It is not saying women should not be employed permanently. That is another issue. It is saying that as the Government is already employing women permanently it should continue to do so. Perhaps I should correct some misstatements which have been made in connection with this motion. It is not correct to say that all married women do not enjoy pension facilities. Again, the hon member said married women cannot be employed permanently. Now, when he speaks like this he speaks as a man who has not been in the Transkei for some time. Perhaps he does not know everything that takes place in his district because there is quite a number of married women who are employed permanently by the Transkeian Government. He has gone on to say that some married women are breadwinners. No-one can dispute this, but as I have said, some married women who are breadwinners are employed permanently. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: Some, not all. REV. VIKA: Yes, to be employed permanently one has to apply. If they don't want to be employed permanently there is no objection to that. That is why I say "some". The last speaker went on to say that no man in his senses would prevent his wife from taking up permanent employment. Even this statement shows how ignorant some of the hon members are of what is taking place, because quite a number of women have been prevented. Some of them have been working already but the husbands have gone to the department concerned and asked that their wives be discharged, because they have a right to do this. They don't just ask them - they demand this because they have a right to do it. I want this House to be clear and anyone who might be listening even later today should understand that the amendment does not say women must not be employed permanently, nor does it say they may not join the pension fund. You see, pension funds themselves have their own regulations. They have their own conditions upon which only one can join them. You cannot join a pension fund if you are on and off in your employment. Let us admit that some of the women do value their marriage more than the money or employment they might get. For example, they still wish to have children, which means they accept the position whereby from time to time they will have to break their service. Now, for us here to legislate that every woman must be employed permanently is in a way empowering us to interfere with married couples. I think what we should understand here is that we are talking of two things - permanent employment and admission to the pension fund and we want to assure the mover of the motion that if a woman can assure the department that she wishes to be employed permanently and will never break her service, I don't think the department will refuse to employ her. In fact, some women when they have been employed receive an affidavit to the effect that the woman can be employed permanently. There is no problem there. Now before I sit down I wish to state that I personally am not for preferential treatment some times even to young
on their behalf. (Laughter) They will realise that this motion has a truthful purpose because I am an experienced member of this House. I have gone all over the country and not one of you has been to places to which I have travelled. (Laughter) I can see anything that is going to be of help to my people. I pity the one who does not take cognizance of a measure which is for the assistance of his own people and instead he introduces a useless amendment. Such an amendment spoils what was going to be of use to the people. Instead of spoiling what is going to be of benefit to the people he must realise that his people will enjoy great benefits from this motion. I do not agree with the amendment by that hon white member of the House from Umzimkulu. (Laughter) It is quite clear that he is not prepared to support anything that is of benefit to his own people. We are not worried about what happened in the past. I cannot say your advice is good advice. Now you are taking us to the Cape and Natal Provincial Administrations and those are things we know nothing about. We are asking for rights. (Interjections) You say I did not work for the bicycle I was given after the Second World War but your soldiers will be working for such. We have not been told what benefits they will enjoy. They will be provided with horses. (Laughter) Mr Chairman and hon member, this House should know what I am now saying. I am no longer a little boy but I am a fully fledged man. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN: Hon member, all you have been saying for the last five minutes is one thing over and over again. Please, if you have no further facts don't waste the time of the House. MR NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman, even if I seemed to be going in a round-about way in discussing this motion, I am speaking to the motion because I am happy about this motion. I am now supporting this motion, being a proper man. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN : Hon member, please don't repeat yourself. Have you finished? MR NKOSIYANE : I have not yet finished, Mr Chairman. You will mark by the reaction of this House that what I am saying is the truth, because I am kicking against the amendment amending the original motion. I am asking these hon members to let this motion through as it has been placed by the mover. CHAIRMAN: You have said that. MR NKOSIYANE : I am now encouraging the Government to give assistance to these women in accordance with this motion so that these married women will be encouraged to teach our children, particularly as these married women have no time to waste going to town and therefore they will remain in the school teaching our children. They work hard because they are thinking of the future of their own children. Even today when the House adjourns we will go to our wives and ask them to give us some money. (Laughter) These married women have no time to go and buy cosmestics for their faces. These women are keen to teach in our schools and you even find them leaving their children because they are keen on education. They must be employed permanently and not on a temporary basis. It does not matter where these women teach. Not one Xhosa man would go and interfere with that arrangement. Their husbands can never question them. There is a scarcity of teachers. Probably when this is known to people it will encourage even those women who were not interested in teaching and they will apply for these posts. I will now appeal to the younger members in this House to forget about the amendment by the hon member. I will be grateful to the hon members if they will agree to this motion. If the motion goes through, even the hon members in this House can leave this House and take up teaching. They will find it is better to go and teach children than to remain members of this House, because a certain man of Lesotho was invited to teach at Fort Hare but he said he could not leave his children in Lesotho. He was offered a lecturership in Fort Hare but he did not want to leave Lesotho so that the children of Lesotho should become educated as he was. He had already sent some of his children overseas to further their studies. They sent some children to Russia to a big institution which is known as Lebombo Institution. For that reason I say education is important and these children should be given the education which they desire and do away with amendment piloted by that handsome 138 .
ing that he was going to withdraw his amendment. I will be very pleased if he will do so. The other hon member for Ngqeleni who also supported this motion made some rather personal remarks and I do not care for such. He said I only spoke for five minutes. It is not true, and he said that showed I had no interest in my motion. He said I had not taken the trouble to study this motion before I came here. I could see he did not know exactly what to say. Now he has started questioning about a person who has just been given an odd job. That has nothing to do with my motion. MR H. PAMLA: But you know nothing about this proclamation. MR MGUDLWA: You are talking about a proclamation. I was a civil servant and it is likely you were a teacher in Natal where you were fired because of your misdeeds. (Laughter) It is my hope, Mr Chairman, that this motion will be supported unanimously by this House and they will do away with the amendment. I call this amendment a black amendment. I do not mention which person it came from. Laughter) Question put and amendment accepted. Motion as amended put and carried.
girls who have completed their teacher training. In fact, I say "personally" when I know that even our Government is not for that preferential kind of treatment. We acknowledge, as one speaker said, that some of these married women have rendered long and faithful service to the Government, so much so that some women when they lose their husbands find that the service they rendered even while they were still married stands them in good stead, and this is considered even for pension purposes. All we are trying to explain to the mover and those who support him is that the Government in the Transkei is already employing women permanently, and therefore paying them pensions. We therefore do not see any need for this motion at all, except that people want to appear ignorant of what is taking place in the Transkei. Mr Chairman, I support the amendment. MR R. S. MADIKIZELA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I rise to support the amendment by the hon member for Umzimkulu, and in this amendment at least we have the tacit support of the New Democratic Party. It is unfortunate that an hon member of the House will come forward with a motion and find it fitting to speak to this motion for just five minutes. The actual contribution by the hon member for Mqanduli for the motion -- that is, that which can be was no more considered relevant to the motion than two sentences. We assume that when a mover comes forward with a motion and addresses this House for five minutes the inference to draw is that he has not made a study of his subject, that he has not much interest in the matter, that in fact he is not in this House as an emissary of the people. The hon member for Engcobo - the mover of the motion - not only brought a motion to this House. He also sought to amend it but the amendment he has put in does not seem to make sense. Before you benefit from a pension scheme you must first of all have contributed to it. A temporary incumbent is only in employment for say six months or twelve months or a a set period little longer and to expect that individual to contribute to a pension scheme is absurd; to expect him to benefit from a pension scheme is absurd. When you take up temporary employment certain conditions are attached by the nature of that employment. You can be discharged at short notice, and you are made aware of that. You can discharge yourself at short notice and you make your employer aware of that. You are made a temporary employee because the circumstances of that employment demand it, because you cannot fulfil the requirments of permanent employment. The amendment by the hon member for Umzimkulu shows that the Government is fully cognisant of these matters and that provisions are made for them as they arise. Rather let us commend the Government of the Transkei for the efforts it takes to care for its employees, married or unmarried, male or female. I support the amendment, Sir.
CONSTRUCTION OF BRIDGE ON MHLANGA RIVER MR E. V. NDAMASE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I move:“That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should consider the desirability of providing funds for the construction of a bridge on Mhlanga River between Marubeni and Nyandeni administrative areas in the Libode district." Mr Chairman, the need to construct a bridge at Mhlanga River need not be over-emphasized. This has been a subject of speculation for many years. I feel very unhappy to have to speak on this matter in the absence of the hon the Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland, because when I gave notice I was expecting him to give me all his support. I must make it very clear that this is one of those things which should have been long ago attended to, but because the white man has always looked down on our people nothing was done. This so-called bridge should have been built to facilitate the heavy traffic of motor transport which passes over that river. Mark you, the late Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland used to travel through that rocky drift. Mark you, the present paramount chief has to go through that rocky drift to get to his children across the stream. During the rainy season he is unable to contact his children. The many trading stations across that drift cannot get their regular supplies during the rainy season. The people who have to proceed to magistrate's courts for court hearings are hampered by the absence of a bridge at that spot. People often run the risk of being charged with contempt of court during the flood seasons. A lot of lives have been lost through the carelessness of the powers that be. Our people are labouring under the wrong impression that this Government is not looking after their interests. They do not realise that the present Government which, in fact, is no Government yet, has not got the funds. They forget that the white Government in Pretoria still enjoys those wonderful powers of vetoing any decision of this parliament. They do not realise that that very Government which made it impossible for our people to have the type of bridge we want is still there. They do not realise that the so-called Government which vetoes these decisions is still the very Government which made it impossible for the people to think and think properly. They fail to realise that even the present state of affairs is not what we are really after. It is something that has been foisted on us just to keep us where we are, but because the Almighty God works wonders, so the tide is against the oppressor and 80 we want the bridges now. No matter what the oppressor thinks, we want these bridges. (Laughter) After independence we want to move freely. We want to get to any part of this our land. That is why I say I expect all the hon members to give me full support on this motion. Across that river there is a big institution. Possibly there is going to be yet another institution and the hon member for Libode stays across that very river, How is he expected to come to parliament when heavy rains fall? Mr Chairman, I don't have to
CHAIRMAN: Hon members, it would appear to me that this motion has been thoroughly canvassed, so I shall therefore call upon the mover to reply. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I have been greatly disappointed to find an amendment to such a clear motion as has been moved. The motion aims at giving assistance to young women. I am sorry that I am addressing myself to this House during the absence of the mover of the amendment. However, there are hon members who supported his amendment and I will refer my remarks to his supporters. The hon member for Tsolo who is also a parson stated in his remarks that the amendment and . my motion were not at loggerheads. He has been outspoken because he belongs to the church and he fears if he does not speak the truth he will be excommunicated. (Laughter) He says they are not opposed to the motion because they see the necessity for granting pension allowances to married women. The mover of the amendment wasted our time speaking about other matters which are not dealt with in the motion. It would appear he, too, was not against this motion and I can say outright that we know the Government. I would liken this Government to a Primus stove which you have to keep on pumping so that it will burn properly. (Laughter) This motion is so important that even the mover of the amendment winked an eye at me, indicat-
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elaborate much further. It is not so much the amount of explanation I give that will suffice. You are well known for your intelligence, so I expect you to see things in their true perspective. Thank you, hon members. CHIEF S. R. DLITAMBA: I second the motion, Mr Chairman. MR N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon member, a non-contentious motion has been brought before us and I stand up to support this motion whole-heartedly. I known the area involved and I have been over that rocky causeway. It is clear that during the rainy season it is risky to cross the river. Let us realise when we discuss matters that the department concerned is in some difficulty, particularly during this historic year when you see a spring where there has never been one before, where rivers rise so high that it has never been known in history. Even our way of life is changing, and changing rapidly. Even now as you go about the roads you see more cars, more buses than you have ever seen before. That is in line with the progress and advancement of the people. We feel we have to support a motion of this kind. We sympathize with the department concerned because we know that what is expected of them is probably beyond what they can afford to do. Be that as it may, we urge them to do their best. The soil in Pondoland is fertile and ideal for agricultural purposes, therefore easy communication and good roads will accelerate progress. It is not necessary for me to be lengthy, but I believe I have shown well enough that we are in line with this motion. MR D. NDAMASE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support this motion. The motion is important as the bridge referred to is of greater value than any bridge mentioned in any other motion because the greater portion of that area is between the Mhlanga and Tina Rivers. Few people realise how long that road is when one wants to go to the Great Place. All the people on the other side of the stream are never sure of being able to get to the Great Place on account of this ford, and that leaves the Great Place in doubt as to the needs of the people on the other side of the river. There is also difficulty experienced by children who have to go to school in Marubeni Location. It happens often that when children go to school there is nothing wrong with the stream, but on their return home they find it in flood. Some of the children find accommodation on the other side but others try to cross and are in danger of being swept away. It happens sometimes with other locations that people are taken ill and have to go by bus to Umtata to consult a dotor. There is a bus service connecting that locality with Umtata and it has to be used by people going to Umtata when they are sick. Should they come to this stream and it is impassable the people cannot get to Umtata for medical treatment and it is possible some people may die. Others are employed in town and on returning to their work after the weekend they find the stream in flood and they cannot cross. As a result they are fired from their jobs, returning home to their families with nothing to give them. I have already stated that there are many different localities in that area and also some trading stores. Sometimes these traders are awaiting their goods to be brought to their trading stores and there is the problem of this stream being in flood. It means the storekeeper has no stock to sell and he loses money. Summer is a long season and it will be observed that during this long period the buses can never reach their destination promptly. The Government is expecting the storekeeper to pay income tax but the traders have very low incomes as a result of this and therefore the Government receives very little in the way of income tax. This shows that the Government is also losing revenue. Taking into consideration the number of stores in that area, the Government should realise quite a good amount in tax. I have already stated that I am supporting the motion. At times widows have to attend the Great Place in connection with matters affecting them. The Government will also realise that certain visits to the Great Place are made by officials. We ask that this request should be given priority as it is a most important motion. CHAIRMAN: I shall now call upon the mover to reply. MR E. V. NDAMASE : Mr Chairman and hon
members, I can see already that things are as they should be. I see that this motion is assured of the full support of the House. Why must I therefore waste time? Thank you, Mr Chairman. Question put and motion carried unonimously. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 15 April 1976.
THURSDAY, 15 APRIL 19776
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon members, since the demise of the late Paramount Chief Mxolisi Sandile several members of this House have had to go and attend to the mourning family, and these are closely related to the paramount chief. For example, the hon the Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland, who is a brother-in-law of the late Paramount chief, has been away from the House and also the hon member for Kentani, Chief Dondashe. Those are the two I have noted, and I hope they will be excused by the House for their absence; also the representative of the hon the Paramount Chief of the Gcalekas, Mr Xelo. I have certain information for you, Mr Chairman, which will be noted by the House and the following hon members should be pardoned for being absent from the sessions: The chiefs of Qumbu and members of parliament are required to report at the magistrate's office on 20 April. I do not know why, but the letter says it is in connection with independence celebrations. The hon the Minister of the Interior has been reported to be indisposed and has not been able to attend the session today as she has been rushed to the doctor. Mr Chairman, the Cabinet has decided that the House will rise today at 1 p.m. Never mind my consultation with them at this late stage. (Laughter) NOTICES OF MOTION. 41. Chief G. B. Siyabalala gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to reduce the rental paid by black railway staff for official housing to half of what they pay at present." 42.
Chief D. D. Mlindazwe gave notice to move:-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should consider the advisability of constructing bridges on the following rivers in the Bizana district:
(a) Mathwebu River (b) Umbungwana River; and (c) Umzamba River." 43.
Mr. W. L. Sipuka gave notice to move :-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should extend the exisiting boarding facilities at the present Training Schools so as to accommodate boys as trainees. " 44. Chief S. S. Majeke gave notice to move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of impressing upon all officers whose duty it is to issue permits for the introduction of stock the Transkei to issue such permits freely to all administrative areas without exception, particularly in view of the abundant rains that we have had, and the loss of stock suffered by reason of the current stock diseases."
UNAUTHORIZED EXPENDITURE (1974/75) BILL: FIRST READING M/FINANCE : Mr Chairman and hon members, in terms of section 53 of the Transkei Constitution Act 140.
should board this bus and our destination will be freedom, and once we reach our destination they will have nothing more to do. This bus is now nearing freedom but it is dark and we do not know what will happen when we reach our destination, which is freedom. The Republican Government should pay back to us that huge sum of money of R500 000 million mentioned by the hon member. If the Republican Government does not pay that money it will have fallen short of what is expected of them. What country, supposed to be free, has to rely on another country for its budget ? What we require is that the Republican Government should pay us that sum of money and then they can leave us after that. We are asking for this money so that we will not be in difficulties when we reach the land of promise. Even the sum we demand is very small compared with what has been taken away from us during the 300 years of White rule in this country. If this does not happen the Republican Government will be in difficulties because we shall have no more confidence in them . CHAIRMAN : Hon member, is that relevant to the motion? MR VAPI: Mr Chairman, I have already pointed out that, to me, the motions which have been passed by this House will land us in difficulties if we only get the small amount which is voted to us. I realise that the road I am applying for is something which will serve the people, but I do not know where we shall get the money from, because the money we have is insufficient to meet our requirements. We are not happy about the treatment meted out to us by the White people. When they agreed that we should part they will not give us what is ours as a right. They know that we are here in the Transkei and they cannot say when we get that freedom what funds we shall possess. We want that money. CHIEF S. F. GWADISO: I second the motion, Mr Chairman. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I rise to move an amendment to this motion that all the words after the word "from" be deleted and the following words be substituted therefor: "the mouth of the Kei River to the mouth of the Umzimkulu River." The motion as amended will therefore read as follows:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Department of Roads and Works be requested to create a connecting coastal road from the mouth of the Kei River to the mouth of the Umzimkulu River." The amendment seeks to remove from this motion this parochialism which is betrayed by a desire to have a coastal road traversing only that part of the coast from which area comes the hon member. It is most unfortunate that we should think in terms of local benefit and not consider the Transkei as a whole when we raise matters in this House, so that all the districts abutting the coast will derive some benefit, if any, from this coastal road which has been described as strategic by the hon member for Port St John's. If we are going to have the wider vision then we can contemplate this road as fitting into the scheme of things whereby we are having a coastal road from Cape Town to Durban and still further north along the coast of Natal. The hon member has stressed the importance of this coastal road as an attraction to tourists who may like to see the virgin nature of our country along the coast. I am in full agreement with these sentiments, but we must be careful to avoid importing to the coast of the Transkei a portion of the skyscrapers in Johannesburg. When one goes from the city to the coast one wants a change of environment. His idea is not to exchange one matchbox for another matchbox somewhere along the coast of the Transkei , and expected commercialization may well destroy the very attraction we seek to retain in order to persuade tourists to come to the Transkei . One goes to a seaside resort to rest and to relax and get back to nature. The coastal road should therefore provide the minimal amount of the artifices of a sophisticated society and present to the tourist Mother Earth and its vegetation at its purest. I will certainly set my face against any development which is going to include skyscrapers along the coast of the Transkei. I would prefer to have the hamlets, rondavels, communal ablution blocks , bowling greens , golf courses,
1963 I wish to convey to the Assembly my recommendation for the appropriations contemplated in the Transkeian Unauthorized Ependiture (1974/75) Bill, 1976. Mr Chairman, I lay upon the table a copy of the bill and I move that the bill be now read a first time. M/AGRICULTURE: I second. Agreed to. The bill was read a first time. M/FINANCE: Mr Chairman, the second reading will be on Tuesday, 20 April 1976 or soon thereafter. CONSTRUCTION OF COASTAL ROAD: NYANDA REGION MR B. P. VAPI: Mr Chairman and hon members, I move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Department of Roads and Works be requested to create a connecting coastal road from Hluleka in Ngqeleni district to Isilimela Hospital in Port St John's district." Mr Chairman, this road will be an important roadway and will be useful to the residents in neighbouring areas because they have never had a road there since the Creation. (Laughter) This House will agree with me that people who are not served by any road encounter many difficulties. Should the department concerned agree to construct this road those people will enjoy a privilege that has been enjoyed by other people for a long time. Motor vehicles such as lorries and ambulances would be able to traverse that road and many people who would otherwise die will be saved by being transported quickly to hospital. This road will not serve only the Konjwayo and Gcingca localities but it will also be of service to government patrols as they patrol the sea coast guarding against the enemy which might come from the sea, such as the Russians. We can not take it as a remote possibility that the Russians will appear on that coast, because the Whites of Port St John's alluded also to that point when discussions took place on independence. We cannot help but believe what these Whites say because some of them are in contact with certain subversive agencies. Those Whites at Port St John's know exactly what the causes of the unrest in Eastern Pondoland were. It is quite clear now that the Government must have roads along the coast so as to guard the country against invasion. If tourism is one of the items in our plans then that road will be a tourist attraction. I am sure the whole coastline between the Kei River and the Umtamvuna will be a tourist attraction. Let us then prepare ourselves so that these places will be ready. This road will accelerate the movement of tourists and it should be ready before 26 October this year. After independence tourists will come in large numbers, being attracted by what they hear of the beauty of the Transkei. I believe that the construction and preparation of roads in the Transkei is Priority No 1. I stress particularly that the roads to the residences of the paramount chiefs should be made not only passable but excellent, because notables like monarchs from other countries such as Queen Elizabeth of Great Britain may visit our paramount chiefs in this country. Monarchs from abroad will visit the Transkei and be honoured guests of the kings of this country. The President of the United States might wish to visit the Paramount Chief of Qaukeni. (Laughter) We might appear to be woolgathering but I am sure these things may occur. The Government must so construct and repair the roads that we will not be a disgrace to honoured visitors here. I stress the roads to the Great Places especially. We know that the Transkei has no minerals so this road skirting the sea coast will then open the road to the treasures of the sea which are comparable to the treasures inland. We cannot complain that the Transkei has no minerals because in the depths of the sea there is a lot which is valuable to the Transkei. There could be a fishing industry and hotels can be built on the coast. The area at the coast will then be attractive. I move again that this motion be treated as a matter of urgency. I refer to the motions which have been discussed in this House and to others which still have to be discussed. They all show we have a long way to go. What shall we do, Mr Chairman? What we expect is that the budget from the Republican Government will just be sufficient to carry us to the door of freedom and no further. What the Whites desire is that we
141.
attention here and now. Our funds should be used in providing those services and in stimulating that development which is immediately relevant to the subeconomic situation of the people of the Transkei. In view of the fact that the economy of the Transkei is really at subsistence level at the present moment we should be more concerned in improving that economy now that. in contemplating a coastal road, so that presidential palaces costing R2 million, skyscraper, administrative offices costing R15 million seem, to my mind, irrelevant in a country which is just about ticking over and no more. This Government is reticent about the details of its intended independence celebrations and yet we know that there might be an unwarranted extravagance in a passing phase when the money could very well be invested in projects which are going to provide jobs for people in order to improve their subsubsistence level. However, let me just say before sitting down that the amendment seeks to give a wider scope to the motion than was contemplated by the mover. At least whilst it is not to become a reality, the coastal road can be a pleasant dream rather than be a disturbing dream for the hon member. MR N. JAFTA: I second the amendment. CHIEF M. D. NONKONYANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I wish to support the motion as it is whole-heartedly. We are discussing something tangible in this motion, because we are discussing a motion about a road from Hluleka to Isilimela Hospital. The hon member for Mqanduli has moved an amendment to the motion but the idea contained in that amendment is an idea of the future. The leaders of the Opposition parties will always do what is expected of them. No-one will deny that, because they are alerting the Government. The hon member has suggested that the coastal road should begin at the Kei River and end at the Natal border. This parliament has been in existence since 1963 and nothing has happened since then. A beginning should be made somewhere, but instead you are suggesting an entire coastal road. Let us admit that times change. Some time back horses were used and there were no motorcars. I am not sure whether the hon the Leader of the Opposition has ever ridden a horse. It is possible that the only horse he knows is a motorcar. This road might be of assistance to him should he fall sick in Ncambedlana because the doctor might direct him to go for treatment to Isilimela Hospital.
swimming pools, so that people on getting there are able to relax because the surroundings in which they are are conducive to that relaxation , being suns newspaper, sans TV, sans telephone. What is going to be beneficial to a financial tycoon if, as he is holidaying along the coast of the Transkei , the executive constantly telephone him about the fluctuating Stock Exchage and bring to him the financial problems on which he has turned his back? Then again , I believe a coastal road has and will have a civilizing effect upon those inhabitants who have lived along the coast, in the forests, under bushes away from it all. MR H. D. MLONYENI : What do they do under the bushes? MR GUZANA : The hon member for Kentani wants to know what they do under the bushes. I would not have expected him to ask me that question, because the report I have received this morning is that he is a heart casualty as a result of last night's dinner. (Laughter) Those people along the coast need to have civilization brought to them. They need to have their antiquated mode of life reshaped and reformed gradually by a manifestation of civilization along the coast. It is quite possible that some of these tribal faction fights which are characteristic in some of these coastal districts will be eliminated by the continuing presence of the manifestations of civilization along those coastal areas. It is indeed essential that we should involve everybody in the Transkei in an emancipatory move to improve their lot economically, and it is impossible to estimate the amount of cash which will go to those people along our coast once this road has been constructed and tourists are attracted to that part of the country. Means of communication, a network of roads whose accessibility to any part of a country, are all factors which are relevant to the development of an underdeveloped area. In fact, one wonders why our Government has done precious little in this regard with respect to those areas which lie along our coast. The hon member is crying aloud for money and more money, like Oliver Twist asking for more, and like a horse that was manifested a thirst it is now near the stream but does not want to drink. He is beginning to have reservations about independence because he alleges there is not any money to render these services. He has told us quite clearly that the Transkei is nothing without money. The big question after all these reservations is: Why did you ask for independence? At least if you remained within the Republic of South Africa the white Government would have been legally and morally obliged to subsidize the Transkei adequately. I have been told that the hon the Chief Minister in his tours throughout the Transkei, apparently talking of independence, has stated that people earning below a certain annual salary will be exempt from tax and that those above that figure will be taxed through the nose. In that context I believe the hon member for Port St John's is quite prepared to dip deep into his pocket in order to finance what he has asked for. He suggests that this coastal road will have strategic significance in that it will be possible to keep an eye on the coast lest the Russians come in from the sea. Why, man, don't you know they are in Angola? Don't you know their sympathizers are in Maputo? Don't you know the Chinese are in Tanzania? You still want to close the door after the horse has got out of the stable and you are pretending a fear for the Communists when actually you have allowed them to come in. Your problem is to deal with them, because they are already here, rather than seek to keep them out. There was a Communist Party in South Africa and in spite of the fact that that party has been banned it is still active and operating underground. The coastal road is certainly . not going to deal with that possible problem. The coastal road is not a political issue or a strategic issue. The aim should be to develop, to make it possible to exploit the possible fisheries along that coast, to stimulate tourism and also to open up the country to the influences of civilization . Now, the hon member has stated that this might well be regarded as a dream of the future, but he assures us that this coastal road will be built some day. Whilst I agree with him that old men should dream dreams and young men see visions I think we should have our priorities reorganized so that first things come first; and that whilst we need a coastal road there are other pressing matters of moment seeking
MR K. M. GUZANA: Why should I go to Isilimela Hospital? CHIEF NONKONYANA: Health is very important. Everybody will realise that a road to a hospital is very important. Sick or not sick, people visit a hospital. Horses die of horse sickness and only cars are then available, Even young men now work hard and save to buy motorcars. This road is therefore a necessity to us all. The mover of the motion has discussed the idea with his constituents. It is the suggestion of his people that he should move this motion in this House because it is something which the people need. Motions are moved in this House at the instance of the voters. We do not treat localities separately. All the people are people of the Transkei and that hospital should be accessible to everyone in the Transkei. We now appeal to the Government to have this road constructed. Business houses will also arise when there are roads and there will be health resorts where people can holiday. People will not go to those resort on foot. It is cars now which can transport people quickly. This House must pay particular attention to the roads of this country because without roads there can be no progress. We appeal to the Department of Roads and Works to speed up the request in this motion so that the hospital is easily accessible to the people. I will say nothing about money because the Treasury is the only section which deals with money. We should accept this motion as it stands and forget about the ideas of tomorrow. I am sorry the hon the Leader of the Opposition is out but he has suggested that we do all these things in one day. Let me point out that the hon member has long been in this House. We are in agreement about this but he just moves this amendment that the House should amend this motion because we should accept what accompanies the construction of this road. Let us agree 142.
on the motion as it stands - that is, the road from Hluleka to Isilimela Hospital. The question of roads has been thoroughly discussed in this House and I have no more to say. MR N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support the amendment. The motion only dealt with a very small area. The amendment extends this area, which is very necessary because all coastal roads are of great significance to us. If one requests a hundred miles of road and another one suggests making it 300 miles instead, how can anyone object to that suggestion? The original mover understands that this refers to one and the same question and I would say that coastal roads are the talk of the people because they are a necessity. When these roads have been established people will be able to get to different points on the coast and even those people who live in broken country will be able to visit others. Culture can only be brought to people by communicating with each other. We who live in the administrative areas know that there are people who have never seen a motorcar and others have never even seen a white man. Should a white man go to an administrative area he will find it is usual for children to run away screaming. Most of the children in these administrative areas first see a white man when they go to a trading store, and as a result they take a long time to develop. They can develop if they have the opportunity of seeing other people and modern improvements such as motorcars. It is for that reason that we suggest an amendment to this motion so that this road should be extended along the whole coast. The motion deals with a short distance, but the amendment deals with a long distance. It is imperative that we should see into the distant future. Mr Chairman, I trust that all the hon members of the House will see the good intention of this amendment. I accordingly request that this House should accept the amendment as it only confirms the original motion and strengthens it. CHIEF D. D. P. NDAMASE: Mr Chairman and hon members, when any development scheme is to be undertaken there is usually a short-term programme and a long-term programme. The motion requires something to be done immediately to assist the people of that particular area. The amendment suggests a programme which is not urgent. The motion limits itself to what the Transkei can afford at the moment. The people who spoke in support of the amendment are people who dare not appear before the voters in our area. As regards health matters, Health Boards have been formed. The Health Board suggested this motion because Nyanda region is divided into three areas, each of which is served by a hospital. This road from Isilimela to Hluleka will cover a distance of about ten miles, whereas at present one has to travel about 40 miles from Isilimela to Hluleka. During the rainy season the area there is impassable and during the dry season the country is so rugged that it is difficult to transport a sick person across country. Now there is an amendment which suggests that plans should be drawn for a road right along the Transkei coast. How long will that take? The people are dying now - the people who sent us to this House. We appeal to the department concerned to send its surveyors there to plan this road which will cover not even ten miles. There is an existing road in the Isilimela area, so it will just be a matter of improving that and then another three miles and it will meet the road to Balawu. That is all we are requesting. We are representatives of that area and the people have sent us to this House to ask for assistance. The mover has explained other benefits which will be derived from the construction of that road. I am mentioning the mover and not the members on my right, because they do not know the area. MR K. M. GUZANA: Do you include the hon member for Ngqeleni on your right? CHIEF NDAMASE: No. According to the wishes of the people of Ngqeleni this road is necessary and the regional authority of Nyanda also desire it. The road will cover two tribal authorities and those people are very isolated. Of the people who support the amendment not one is from the regional authority area of Nyanda. We have made a start and the hon members long-term policy will just continue. There are many seaside resorts in that area and it would be of assistance to the people who visit these resorts to have this
road constructed. We are interested to hear that there is a communistic undercurrent in the Transkei because we are now preparing to meet that. We move this motion and we are opposed to the amendment which will delay the execution of the motion. MR P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support the amendment strongly because the amendment is an extension of the motion. The mover and his supporters do not understand this amendment. It is a very good amendment which adds to their motion. They ought to have accepted the amendment because it is an extension which seeks that the coastal road should start from the Kei and proceed as far as the Umzimkulu. This road will be of great assistance as it will be a coastal road right to the Umzimkulu Mouth. They should be in a position to realise that this road will incorporate the road mentioned in the motion. The coastal road from the Kei River will run right past Umtata Mouth and thence to the Umzimkulu River. We in the south will also benefit from this road because we are a long way from the north. It is for that reason that I support the amendment, because the amendment seeks to help all those people who live on the coast. I wish to draw the attention of the mover to the fact that the amendment is only there to assist him. I therefore support the amendment. Everyone who wants roads should see to it that it does not only satisfy their own locality but should benefit everyone. They must bear in mind that all people require such roads. Everyone should have the good intention of benefiting everyone. They must bear in mind that all people require such roads. Everyone should have the good intention of benefiting everyone. The amendment aims at giving everyone assistance and the use of this coastal road. The road will be similar to a certain man known as Khama who thought a certain road should be used by all the people and another Khama also made a prophecy in connection with a certain road, and he prophesied that that road would be to the benefit of all people. I thus support the amendment although I know that the motion was a good one, but the amendment extends the motion. I do not know why someone who has a hunchback should refuse to have his hunch straightened out. This motion should be straightened out by applying an iron to it so that it is extended. (Laughter) I am appealing to hon members to agree with the amendment. They have always been obstinate. At one time you refused the construction of fences but later on you acquiesced. CHAIRMAN: Hon member, please be relevant to the motion. MR NKOSIYANE : I appeal to you hon members to support the amendment. You must all do so and you must accept it amicably. You must always bear in mind that if I tell you anything the result will be exactly what I have told you. I will assume my seat, Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN: Hon members, I think the motion has been thoroughly canvassed and I shall call upon the mover to reply. MR B. P. VAPI : Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to thank the hon members who supported me, including the hon chief from Flagstaff and Chief D. D. P. Ndamase from Ngqeleni. Our policy has so confused hon members of the Democratic Parties that they do not know where they are. In those words I thank the hon members who have supported me and I will still have something to say about the scattered members of the Opposition . Question put and amendment negatived. Motion put and carried. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 20 April 1976.
TUESDAY , 20 APRIL 1976 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. QUESTIONS QUESTION NO. 56:
Mr. H. Pamla asked the Minister of Roads and Works:143 .
(b) What salary scales are attached to the qualifications in (a) above? (c) What is the present entrance qualification for a builder's course and how long is the period of training? (d) How many years are stipulated for the period of apprenticeship after a trade course e.g. building?
(e) Are there any arrangements made by your Department to have trainees absorbed for the necessary period of apprenticeship?" REPLY: "(a) A black certificate is a certificate which is issued after successful completion of a course at a vocational training school and passing a qualifying trade test usually after 3 years' probation. A trade certificate is a more advanced certificate and is issued after successful completion of an apprenticeship and National Training Certificate course.
2
1 1 2 3 1 2 1 Total : 75."
MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, arising from the reply given by the hon the Minister of Education through the hon the Minister of Roads and Works, what is a redundant teacher? In view of the fact that there has been a cry for more teachers in the schools, does the department envisage distributing these redundent native teachers to other schools? What is the department's policy? M/ROADS: Hon members of the House, you know that in secondary schools there is an acute shortage of teachers and it is the aim of the department to supply teachers to those schools. MR GUZANA: But they are already redundant. M/ROADS: The returns are still being processed.
(b) In both cases the starting salary scale is R1600 x 120-2700 per annum but in the case of an artisan with a trade certificate promotion to higher ranks such as Foreman and Inspector of Works is normally much quicker. (c) Std. VI and the period of training is 5 years. (d) After completion of a trade course there is no apprenticeship to serve but merely a trade test to undergo.
(e) Yes."
QUESTION NO. 58:
QUESTION NO. 57:
Mr. D. J. Ndleleni asked the Minister of Justice:"Whether the stock theft Police in the Maluti Region will subsequently be supplied with horses for use on the Drakensberg Mountains as was the case before the above Police were transferred to the Transkei Government."
Chief S. C. Dalasile asked the Minister of Education:"(a) How many Junior Secondary Schools and High Schools are understaffed? (b) How many have redundant teachers? Give us details of each school.
REPLY: "(a)
Makaula Qokolweni Chief Henry Bokleni Ezizweni Nomaheya Mtweni St. Batholomew Shawbury Falo Mnceba Gcisa Jongilizwe Ndema Tsomo St. John's College Clydesdale Engwaqa Lourdes Fort Malan Cala Matanzima Freemantle Mehlomakulu Bensonvale
14212-22232144-11-
17. 18. 19. 20. 21. 22. 23. 24. 25. 26. 27. 28. 29. 30. 31. 32. 33. 34. 35. 36. 37. 38. 39. 40.
"(a) What is the difference between Black Certificate and Trade Certificate?
REPLY:
(i) Junior Secondary Schools : Information is not available as the returns are still being processed by schools and circuit offices.
"Yes. It is however, proposed to do so on a subsidised basis."
QUESTION NO. 59: (ii) Senior Secondary Schools (High Schools : 23.
Mr. D. J. Ndleleni asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry as follows:-
(b) (i) Junior Secondary Schools: Information is not available for the reason given in (a) (i) above.
"(a) Under normal conditions, is it Government policy to force a rehabilitation scheme on residents of an administrative area who do not want it? and
(ii) Senior Secondary Schools (High Schools) : 40. Name of School
Tanga Jalamba Nyanga Emfundisweni Colosa Dondashe Upper Corana Mqikela Palmerton Moshesh Mvenyane Mount Hargreaves Jojo Rode Lehana Huku
REPLY:
"(a) No. It is not the Government policy to force a a rehabilitation scheme on residents of an administrative area who do not want it. Residents themselves are to make application to the Government to have their area rehabilitated.
13221322-2
1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15. 16.
(b) Is it not Government policy to compensate residents of an administrative area who have been removed and settled elsewhere as a result of Government rehabilitation scheme?"
No. of Redundant teachers 1 1 1 4 4 1 1
2 2
(b) It is Government policy to compensate residents of an administrative area who had been removed and settled elsewhere as a result of Government rehabilitation scheme when the residents have made application to have their area rehabilitated and residents are paid hut compensation only. "
2
2
144.
(b) They may request the above."
QUESTION NO. 60: Mr. E. Dyarvane asked the Minister of the Interior: "(a) Does the Social Worker stationed at Lusikisiki still have the district of Bizana included in her area of operations?
M/HEALTH : Mr Chairman, I would like to add a rider to this. It happens in some of these hospitals, more especially in the mission hospitals, that a person going to a hospital is not given a polite reply but is told just to go back home. It would please me if hon members experiencing this or having knowledge of this will contact me by telephone. It does not mean because a hospital is too small that that hospital may not refer a patient to a bigger hospital such as Umtata.
(b) If yes, how often does she visit Bizana and when?
ABUSE OF DEPENDENCE-PRODUCING SUBSTANCES AND REHABILITATION CENTRES AMENDMENT BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE
(c) Since her area is apparently too wide for one Social Worker to be able to pay more regular visits to out-stations in Bizana, would be Department not consider increasing the number of Social Workers for the area?
M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I move that this House turns itself into a commettee in order to consider this bill. M/INTERIOR: I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to.
REPLY:
House in Committee
"(a) Yes.
On Clause 1
(b) The Welfare officer spends every third week (from Monday until Friday) in the Bizana district.
M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I move the adoption of this section. As I pointed out during the second reading, since the amendment of Act No. 41 of 1971 by the insertion of section 2(a) by the parliament of the Republic of South Africa, the Transkeian magistrates' courts have given effect to the amendment on the assumption that it was applicable to the Transkei. The Appellate Division of the Supreme Court has, however, recently decided that in view of the provisions of the Transkei Consitution Act of 1963 the said amendment does not apply in the Transkei. The amendment is intended to insert a similar provision in this Act in so far as it applies in the Transkei for the sake of uniformity of sentences, and to do so with retrospective effect to cover the interim period. Persons sentenced and convicted prior to the interim period covered by this bill will not be affected by the retrospective operation. M/ROADS: I second, Mr Chairman. Clause 1 put and agreed to. Clause 2 put and agreed to. Long title put and agreed to.
(c) As soon as the availability of funds permits, a welfare officer will be stationed either at Bizana or Flagstaff to serve those two districts, while the welfare officer at Lusikisiki will be responsible for the district of Lusikisiki only. This should facilitate a much greater work coverage in the areas concerned."
QUESTION NO. 61 : Chieftainess M. C. Lebenya asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:"(a) Is it not possible for the Transkeian Government to construct an irrigation dam similar to the Ncora dam at Seqhobong in Mount Fletcher? (b) If not, why not?" REPLY:
House Resumed
"(a) No. (b) My Department is aware of a dam site on the Marulane river between Seqhobong location No. 33 and Mohoabatsana location No. 34 with a possible capacity of 35 million cubic metres and 350 hectare of possible irrigable land in Seqhobong only.
D/CHAIRMAN : Mr Chairman, I wish to report that the Transkeian Abuse of Dependence-producing Substances and Rehabilitation Centres Amendment Bill 1976 has been passed by the committee without amendment. M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, I move that this House waives its rules in order to enable me to move the third reading today. M/ROADS: I second. Agreed to.
The Ncora dam has a capacity of 181,25 million cubic metres and 5 700 hectare of irrigable land. The schemes would thus be vastly different.
ABUSE OF DEPENDENCE-PRODUCING SUBSTANCES AND REHABILITATION CENTRES AMENDMENT BILL : THIRD READING
Schemes of this nature must be economically viable to have a priority for development."
M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman and hon members , I move that the bill be read a third time. M/ROADS: I second. Agreed to. The bill was read a third time.
QUESTION NO. 62: Mr. E. V. Ndamase asked the Minister of Health: "(a) Seeing that nothing has hitherto been done about the building of a hospital in the Libode district, what must the people do when they are told at the existing hospitals outside the district that beds are not available for the sick? and
UNAUTHORIZED EXPENDITURE (1974/75) BILL M/FINANCE : Mr Chairman, I am not ready with the second reading of this bill to meet unauthorized expenditure for the year 1974/1975, so I move that this item be postponed till Friday, 23 April or so soon thereafter. M/ROADS : I second. Agreed to.
(b) When these people are told that they must go and build their own hospital in their district, how must they reply?"
REPLY:
PROVISION OF HOUSING FOR POLICE STAFF
"(a) In the case of admission being necessary the Hospital, if it is unable to admit the patient directly, will refer it to Umtata Hospital for admission.
CHIEF G. B. SIYABALALA : hon members , I move :145.
Mr Chairman and
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should build houses for the police staff, not the rondavels they formerly occupied." Mr Chairman, the Transkeian police should be given substantial buildings as members of the government service who serve not only the Government but the people. I have moved this motion aware that it is a longstanding need. Even the Republican Government , seeing that we are going to have independence in the near future, should take an interest and see to it that these police are well provided with suitable accommodation. It will be observed that during these heavy rains the police have been forced to go and beg accommodation from anyone. Supposing a pliceman who is a sergeant is now forced to go and find accommodation where illicit liquor business is being carried on, what would be the plight of such man? In such circumstances the policeman would be forced to accept that accommodation. Our Government should therefore see to it that our police have suitable accommodation. During the time when we had white police here the white policemen were provided with proper housing. I do not remember a single instance of a white policeman occupying a rondavel. Seeing we are now the rulers of this country why should our police live under these conditions? If visitors come from other countries you would be ashamed to show them the disgraceful huts in which our constables live. I do not believe that this is a contentious motion and I therefore hope it will receive the support of this House. I accordingly appeal to the House that this motion should be passed. MR A. MFEBE: I second the motion. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I request to be allowed to speak sitting down. In support of this motion I wish to refer hon members to previous Hansards where they will find that I have been struggling for a long time over this question. The accommodation afforded to our police is a disgraceful thing. Immediately you enter these villages or towns you will find the police in occupation of such huts. I would liken the huts occupied by these police to those occupied by squarters where you find all sorts of people , aged and young, making a rattling noise with tins. (Laughter) They should probably have been in Durban in a place known as Cato Manor where you would find all sorts of people in different conditions. When you find these policemen in the streets you will find them looking neat and in clean uniforms because their officers are with them to inspect them. Just imagine seeing a neatly dressed policeman in the street and then when you go to where he lives in his hut you will find a horrible state of affairs. In fact, the white police have always been provided with good housing. Even if they were unmarried they were accommodated in barracks. Most of these policemen do field work and have to remain away from the police camp for long periods, but when they report back they feel like not returning when they begin to think of the conditions of their huts. Long before there was any thought of independence I piloted a motion of this nature. I am accordingly supporting the motion. In fine, Mr Chairman, I support the motion and I hope we will not have any debate over this matter. MR W. L. SIPUKA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand to support the motion. I am not going to try to find fault but to place facts before you. The Republican Government failed entirely to look after the important servants of the Government. We put it before the Transkeian Government and not the Republican Government now, in view of the fact that all police stations are under the Transkeian Government. The building of houses for these important servants has long been overdue. I believe they are the only servants who have endured living in these pondokkies as they do. The place which is leased should be one which deserves these youths, brain and all. My learned friend on the opposite side told us that these people are clean. They have shiny buttons and badges and they come back at night they hang these fine things in horrible shelters. If one has to live in a decent place when one has to use one's brains, how much more for the police - people who have to investigate criminal offences such as murder, theft, snatching of bags by little boys in town. These things happen in their absence but the police must find the clues . It is their duty to find the culprit,
but when they go back to their shelters they have no time to think about what their duty is for the following day. As a result many fine people who joined the force have left the force. Some of these fine people are in the House now. I can point my finger at an hon member over there. He was a policeman and he resigned because of the conditions under which they lived. Let us look at the situation now and the importance of the police. Who has shed his blood in the north against terrorism? It is the police. Where do they stay thereafter? In the pondokkies. All the good work has got to be done for the Government by the police. If there is a human body dead on the veld the police must go and sleep next to that body so that it is not eaten up until a clue is found as to how that person died. If the Japanese U-boats or the Russians are suspected along the coast the police must go and patrol up and down along the coast, along the wild Coast to see if those U-boats are frequenting our shores, yet these men stay in pondokkies. Gentlemen, I need not go any further. The mover has told us that the motion is as plain as ABC but I hope there are no D's in the House. We all realise that the shelters where our police go after their good work is enough to make the angels weep and, hon members, I am supporting this motion with malice to none and charity to all. MR P. N. NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support this motion because it affects people who are keeping order in this country. This matter has been discussed for a long time but nothing has been done for the police. When some people left it was then decided that these people should be placed in some of their houses. Some of these houses have been damaged and their roofs are leaking. These policemen in these leaking houses are expected to pay heavy rents and yet no repairs have been effected. It is for that reason that a request has been placed before the Government to build proper buildings for these people. The Government is not requested to put up rondavels for these policemen, but substantial buildings should be erected with at least five rooms in each, because some of these policemen are married and when they are transferred they move with their families and they must find ready accommodation . The Government should know that these people have more work to do than ever before. Formerly the police were not so busily occupied as they are today. Today many things belonging to people are moved from one place to another. That is why we ask that they should have substantial buildings. The heavy rentals expected of these men are unfair because they are not well paid. As we are going to give more work to these police and we shall ask that they should work even at night, they should receive proper treatment from the Government. As we live we depend entirely on the police and we would that the Government should consider this question seriously. Some of these constables are not yet married but one day they will get married. As it is, the police are doing a lot of hard work today. They have to build their own huts. I have seen some of them going to the forest to get poles. That goes to show that they are not being well cared for. We request the Government to consider this question. The police of higher rank should be given better accommodation suitable to their rank and the police should be treated in like manner, particularly as we are going to have independence, because the work done by these black constables is the same as that done by the Whites. I am thankful that this motion has been brought to this House because these policemen are there to keep peace and order. They must be taken out of these houses built by the XDC so that other people who live in town should also enjoy those buildings which belong to the XDC. This habit of putting policemen into these old buildings should be done away with. I support the motion. CHAIRMAN: I think, hon members, this noncontentious motion has been thoroughly dealt with. In the premises, therefore, I shall call upon the mover. CHIEF G. B. SIYABALALA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I feel that hon members are unanimous on this motion. There is no doubt that the opinion I had is shared by the rest of the House, namely that the police are there to keep peace and order and are therefore deserving people. Anyone who finds himself 146.
in difficulties goes to the police. Why should we not therefore consider these people in regard to their living conditions? A constable was transferred from one station to another and I was surprised when I heard him say he was going to remove the hut in which he lived because he had built it himself. When he arrived at another station he did not know where to stay and could not in fact find any accommodation. It is expected of a policeman that he will investigate any complaints brought by the people. These police can now easily be accused of being implicated in a theft, because at times a policeman will find accommodation in a home where the people are thieves, but he has no alternative but to accept any kind of accommodation. I think the reason why thieving is increasing to such an extent is because the police are not well looked after. I thank the House for their support in this motion. Question put and motion carried unanimously.
We are meeting difficulties because we have to buy bread when we could benefit from growing wheat. The Transkei has a fertile soil, so much so that experts in agriculture desire to get this land. Because of the fertility you don't have to labour to grow wheat. I support the motion in that we need more wheat in this country. We could even have a surplus to sell but because we have no machines we don't plant more wheat. CHIEF MANZEZULU MTIRARA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I also stand up to support this motion; as I grew up in Lady Frere where wheat is largely planted. This wheat is planted so that we have a good crop. Our difficulty in that district is that even the machine we had there is broken and there is no machine at present. If we go to consult the neighbouring white farmers their charges are exorbitant. Formerly they used to charge 80c, but now it is over R1 a bag. A farmer who wants to bag his wheat has to buy empty sacks and in addition to that expense he has to pay this R1 a bag. I know the conditions obtaining in our district and the difficulties people meet, and therefore I support this motion. At my place, particularly at Ilanti where there is irrigation, they plant a lot of wheat and they used to thrash it but they also suffer the same difficulty of the machine getting broken. There is the great need for a thrashing machine in those areas where wheat is being planted. In fine, Mr Chairman, I do not believe any member would oppose such a motion after such an explanation. MR A. MFEBE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I support this motion which is of great importance, in particular in regard to the people who plant a lot of wheat. Even recently our wheat got spoilt in the lands because we had no thrashing machine. We would that means should be made so that there should be a thrashing machine. Those people who do not plant wheat will not realise the importance and value of such machines. It is not even necessary for me to speak at length over this question, which is self-explanatory, because it is clear to everyone. I believe the co-operative is only interested in its own affairs because the wheat rots in spite of the presence of the co-op. I hope the House will give its full support to this motion. CHAIRMAN: There being no other speaker, I shall call upon the mover to reply. MR D. B. MXUTU: Mr Chairman and hon members, there is nothing to reply on, because we are all unanimous about this motion. In support it has been whispered how much wheat MR K. M. GUZANA: And how much the machine? MR MXUTU: It will depend on the amount of wheat you put in yourself. If the machines are expensive now, how much more will they be in the future? It is said one should make hay while the sun shines. We should buy the machines now because a time is coming when we will be forced to put in some wheat in preference to mealies which have failed this year in some areas, and wheat serves a dual purpose to a farmer. While it is still young you feed your stock by putting in your sheep and they thrive on it, especially when the sheep are lambing. After that you reap your crop of wheat. At Herschel last week I saw wheat rotting because the people there have no thrashing machines and the farmers are charging what they like for their machines, so it is high time that we had our own machines, irrespective of how much they are. I therefore wind up by saying we must have these machines now and the Government must shoulder the burden of buying them. Question put and motion carried unanimously.
PURCHASE OF WHEAT-THRASHING MACHINES MR D. B. MXUTU: Mr Chairman, and hon members, I move the motion in my name as follows :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Department of Agriculture and Forestry consider the advisability of purchasing wheat-thrashing machines for use by prospective farmers of the Transkei." Mr Chairman, I wish to state that some farmers who like to make a livelihood out of wheat production have difficulty in thrashing it because they have no machines, especially_those farmers who are adjacent to the white farmers. They find difficulty in thrashing their wheat because the white farmers at times refuse to hire out their machines to them and they will delight in seeing the wheat rot in the lands. Even if they hire their machines to the people they charge an exorbitant price and that is tantamount to refusal. It is just like a man who will ask exorbitant interest when you ask him for money. I am made to understand that these thrashing machines are also suitable for thrashing millet, which is known as Kaffircorn. We are all agreed that this year the mealie crop has gone down because of these copious rains and some prospective farmers are now going to put in some wheat. We would like to know where they are going to get machines to thrash that wheat. They have the same difficulty all the year round of trying to hire these thrashing machines from the white farmers, and starvation is going to set in even if they have been able to meet starvation by putting in a winter crop. It has been said that during independence there will be a shortage of bread because there are few bakeries in the Transksei. It will be a good thing if some farmers would embark on this winter crop even if they can use their ordinary stones to grind it, in order to produce this bread. With those few words, therefore, I need not go any further except to say that there is a need for thrashing machies for the wheat grown by our farmers. MR H. D. MLONYENI: Mr Chairman and hon members, I second the motion. MR B. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand in support of this motion. It will be noted that wheat is one of our staple foods. If we plant wheat we usually have a good crop, but people do not sow wheat as they should do. Those people who have attempted to plant wheat say that the crop generally rots out in the lands because there is no thrashing machine. In the district of Lady Frere farmers usually have wheat because they have a machine. Kaffircorn is also planted because they have machines to thrash Kaffircorn. Even at my home when I was a youngster wheat was planted and the crop used to grow to a good height. They stopped planting wheat because usually that wheat rotted away in the lands because they have no means of thrashing it. Many people do wish to plant Kaffircorn and wheat so that they should have a crop for the two seasons of the year. Because there are no machines that cannot be done. When independence comes it would assist greatly because we would be able to have bread which is the staple food. Most people eat bread whether they are rich or poor and yet you will find that the bread they eat has been bought. If a man plants wheat then he will be able to eat bread from his own labours. When one buys wheat one must expect to pay a lot for it.
AFTERNOON SESSION INDUSTRIAL GROWTH POINT : MOUNT FRERE/TABANKULU AREA CHIEF N. T. SIGCAU: Mr Chairman and hon members, I move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should consider the advisability that the area between Tabankulu and Mount Frere should be one of the Transkei industrial growth points, since we have the advantage of the Umzimvubu River and the national road." Mr Chairman, I will not be lengthy since this motion is straightforward, because no-one does not know about
147.
the importance of industrialization so that each and every person is quite aware of the fact that there should be economic balance in any State, in order to curb any complaints which might erupt. We know very well that the Government has some good plans as far as our economic future is concerned. Take, for instance, the hydro-electric scheme which is being built by the Government on the Umzimvubu River. Hydroelectric power is very important in any area which is declared a growth point. Another thing is that this area between Mount Frere and Tabankulu is not far from the national road, though somebody might say there is no railway. However, I am very well aware that there is a motion which has been put forward by the hon member for Matatiele about a rail link between Umtata and Kokstad, so I think if somebody says industrialists will not be interested where there is no rail link, by having a motion of this nature it will accelerate the consideration of a rail link between Umtata and Kokstad. Another point I would like to mention is the position in some parts of the Transkei in so far as jobs are concerned. I do not mean that I am not happy about the fact that there are places which have been established or declared as national growth points , such as Butterworth, and other industrial schemes which have been envisaged by the Government near Umtata for the future. It is very difficult for us as members of parliament to explain the situation in some areas - i.e. our constituencies because some say the Government is not fair because it is concentrating on certain sections of the Transkei. People in other places are therefore neglected. Take, for instance, once an industry has been established, people expect to find jobs. If the area I am mentioning can be one of our growth points many people will be employed there because that area will serve many districts such as Mount Frere, Tabankulu, Mount Ayliff, Mount Fletcher, Matatiele and even Umzimkulu . Of course, I am aware of the situation in the Transkei, but even if the Government is not yet prepared to develop the area fully one industry should be established in the area I am mentioning, or near to it, among some of the projects which are being envisaged. Another point I would like to dwell on is that the Government should try by all means to attract industrialists for the economic development of the Transkei. It should not only turn to the Republic of South Africa, more especially as in the future we will be an independent state, because we will be able to negotiate with any state we feel like negotiating with. Mr Chairman and hon members, as I have said, I will not dwell too much on this motion because it is clear and straightforward.
ranch has been started. In addition to that there is good grass in Eastern Pondoland for keeping stock. I therefore believe that there is much material which can be of use in such development schemes. Passing Tabankulu I see forests on all sides with suitable timber from which various articles of furniture could be made. Should the trees growing in those forests be cut down it would not be necessary for the timber to be brought to Umtata but it could be processed at that growth point. In order to see the development of any country it is necessary to decrease unnecessary expense in any project. If you would have to move raw materials from one place to a distant spot in order to make furniture it would be cheaper to create a growth point in the area where the timber grows.. I have perceived something being done in Mount Ayliff area, but it is just a sawmill and nothing more. For that reason I namely, that a growth point support the mover should be established in the area mentioned so that all the areas of the Transkei can be developed. The Umzimvubu River never dries up, no matter how severe the drought. I have known the river since 1930. A perennial river is important to the development of any industry. All industries require an adequate supply of water. The hon member for Tabankulu has often mentioned the fact that there is iron ore in Tabankulu. We have often heard that there is ore in the mountains of Tabankulu. The minerals in that region have been neglected because it was felt it was more expensive to mine the ore there than to mine ore in other parts of the Republic. If in fact there is ore in the mountains of Tabankulu there is no reason to doubt that a growth point between Mount Frere and Tabankulu is essential in order to exploit these deposits. Hon members should not overlook the fact that it is a very short distance between that area and Pietermaritzburg , which means that it would be an easy matter to transport products from that growth point. This would mean we would not have to rely on a market only in East London but there would be a market also among the Zulu people as well as the white people in Durban. We cannot run away from the fact that we have married into the Zulu people and this would form a link between us and those people and we will influence them to support our people. If this growth point can be developed it will mean that Maluti can follow suit because when they see there has been development in this area lying between Mount Frere and Tabankulu they will say: Let us have our own growth point and see whether we can be as successful as those other people. We would then find a solution to any complaints which may arise, because experience has taught us that people must believe they are being cared for. For example, if you are a grandfather you have to take notice of your grandchildren even if it is only by giving them scraps of food, so let our political children have something to chew. It is of great importance that our growth should be well balanced , instead of concentrating on one area and going on to another when that area is exhausted . If you find that your body is sore your friends should smooth it on all sides. It is for that reason that I stand in support of the motion and we see nothing wrong with the request. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHIEF J. NTOLA : Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support the motion. It is a very important motion. In our part of the country we are pleased about this because all the people in that area will be able to procure employment. It is a fact that we complained that we are disregarded, as everything is done for other people. It is true that this river is of great value. We shall not be detracting from what is being done in Butterworth, but there will be further development at such growth points. There is not a single country which can develop or grow without industries, because it is industry which helps a country to grow. There are many things which can be made in such a place for example, clothing and blankets. Those blankets could then be sold in the Transkei and others exported. Motorcars could be repaired and crockery could be made and sold. In that region ore could be mined and minerals developed at such a growth point. I have already stated that I support the motion. There are many things which we do export from the Transkei and much can be done with hides and skins and wool. Bridles, shoes and other things could be manufactured.
CHIEF S. C. JOJO: I second, Mr Chairman. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, as one who has a claim as far as Eastern Pondoland is concerned, it is my intention to support this motion. GOVT MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR GUZANA: In all development which we aim at we would like to see development in the east, in the west, in the north and in the south of our territory. For good results we should have a burning spirit from all these directions. If a housewife is baking bread she must collect firewood so that all sides of the baking pot are covered and coals placed on the lid of the pot in order that the bread will taste good. Even when men are sitting next to a stock kraal holding a meeting they will not just sit in a line but will form a semicircle and when a man sits next to the fireplace he does not sit with his legs out straight but sits with his knees up. That is why I maintain that development should come from all directions. If development is oneзided it means we will not have solved the question of migrant labour. What will happen is that people from Umzimkulu, Maluti , Qaukeni, etc., will take their bags to Fingoland to obtain jobs. As a result the people already in Fingoland will complain and say that people from Maluti, Pondoland and all these places are given preference in obtaining work. The hon member has pointed out the area where this growth point should be established and he mentions the area between Mount Frere and Tabankulu. In his motion he does not fix the exact locality of his growth point but leaves it to the experts. At Lambasi tea is grown and we are sure that the Pondos find work there. At Mkambati a stock 148 .
as Libode, Matatiele, Qumbu, Mount Ayliff, this proposed scheme will be central to all those districts and the people will be able to work nearer home. There are many females there who hold commercial certificates for book-keeping and accountancy and they will be able to work at those factories with their husbands. Some of these people will also change residence and settle near to the factories. The tribal authorities will now be in a position to see that there are open spaces so that the coming generation will be able to fill up the vacant land left by people who have gravitated to that growth point. The wild young men in our area are idle and that is why they tend to think that fighting is an outlet. Employment will keep them occupied, as long as that employment is near their homes, so that this faction fighting resulting in many deaths will come to an end. The women in the vicinity will be able to grow vegetables and market them in the area. People who know the area will realise that the Insizwa Mountain is close to this area and that copper is to be found there. When mining starts there according to our suggestion, there will already be these factories established and communication will be easy. We hope the proposed railway line joining Umtata and Kokstad which was discussed in the House recently will become a reality one day. The tarred road also passes through Mount Frere and Tabankulu district and will be able to carry whatever traffic is necessary. Should this motion be carried and put into effect the complaint that only a portion of the Transkei is being attended to will now disappear. There is always a complaint that this side of the Transkei is being developed and nothing is done on the eastern side. In that way I support this motion, Mr Chairman. CHIEF D. D. MLINDAZWE : Mr Chairman and hon members, in supporting this motion I wish to state that it is straightforward. I am certain that we must now appear redundant in our discussions, because the main points have been raised by speakers who spoke yesterday, particularly the important point that industrial growth should be spread to the four corners of the Transkei. Athough I will not say much, I would like to mention a few points in connection with this motion. I wish to point out that the Transkei is facing very difficult times, particularly after independence. To point out again some of the difficulties which confront this Government, there is the supply of food and the question of urban Africans. We in the Transkei cannot lead a uniform existence, particularly as regards employment or activity. Our people believe that they can live on the small plots which they cultivate. Even people who have not the talent to farm will carry on cultivating the land although they are not made that way. Others migrate to the labour areas, leaving their lands. Some of them are capable farmers if only they will concentrate on farming. Some of these people, though far from home, would be able to farm but on account of the distance they are not able to do so. It is now for the Government to see that people are provided for in various spheres of activity. This motion tends to be of assistance to those people who leave their homes to go and work in the urban areas. It tends also to assist those people who have land but who have been taught to go and work outside the Transkei, but if those people are able to find work in these factories they would be nearer home. These people who leave the Transkei to look for work and remain there now have doubts as to what is happening in the Transkei and this motion will put an end to those ideas. Among the many questions they ask are these: What is the Transkeian Government's idea? When is the Government going to think of establishing factories in the Transkei so that we will find employment there? We have this difficulty as chiefs and headmen, that we are approached by our people who say they want a permit and they do not differentiate between the different types of permit which authorize people to travel. They cannot help in this regard because people in the labour centres direct these people to go to their chiefs and headmen for permits. Now a person is issued with a document enabling him to seek work and then the time allowed expires and that man will be prosecuted. Our Government should stem the tide of people going to the outside areas and this can be done by the establishment of factories in the Transkei. Our people working in the mines now
Glasses could be made as well as baskets and many other things which would be of help to the Transkeian people. People don't care for such items because we have no factories here. Now we are planting gumtrees and from them paper could be made which can be sent to other countries. Bags can be made from the bark but all the bark is at present sent to other countries to be processed. We hope the Government will take immediate action, because this is a reasonable motion. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon members, I would move that the House should adjourn in order to allow the members to attend the opening of the conference of the Foreign Affairs Association at the Unity Hall at 3.15, when the Chief Minister delivers his opening address. Agreed to. The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 21 April 1976. WEDNESDAY, 21 APRIL 1976
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. NOTICES OF MOTION 45.
Mr. N. P. Nkosiyane gave notice to move:-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Authorities Act (Act No. 4 of 1965) be amended by repealing paragraph (d) of section 12, and the whole of section 15, and these provisions be taken over by the Department of Agriculture and Forestry." 46.
Mr L. L. Mgudlwa gave notice to move :—
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the desirability of providing funds, as a matter of urgency, for the construction and making of: (a)
(i) A bridge on the Mgwali River between Beyele and Manzana Administrative Areas, Engcobo district; (ii) A bridge on the Mgwali River between Emjanyana and Ngcacu Administrative Areas, Engcobo district;
(iii) A bridge on the Qumanco River between Beyele/Qumanco and Egoso Administrative Areas, Engcobo district; (b) A short-cut road connecting the districts of St. Marks, Tsomo and Engcobo through Qwebeqwebe Administrative Area, St. Marks district and Ngqaba and Egoso Administrative Areas Engcobo district to connect the Engcobo-Idutywa road. " INDUSTRIAL GROWTH POINT : MOUNT FRERE/TABANKULU AREA The debate was resumed. MR D. NDAMASE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support this motion which concerns the creation of industries in the Mount Frere/ Tabankulu districts. We feel that industrialists will be interested in that area seeing that the Umzimvubu River can be harnessed to serve the area. The Umzimvubu as well as the Kenegha River will give a sufficient supply of water to these would-be industrialists. Plans are afoot that each of these rivers be harnessed to produce hydroelectricty. Such schemes will be beneficial in that they will offer employment to local people, unlike the factories in far-off places like Butterworth and so on. These schemes will offer employment to people nearby, which means they will not be separated from their families. They will be able to visit their families regularly. That will show a marked difference between the fact that a man is in the labour area for a long time and cannot attend to his domestic affairs, and being close to his home. When I mention such districts
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rule. (Laughter) If we apply for these bridges and make requests and the bridges are not built it will just show we are careless about the lives of our people. I believe, Mr Chairman, that it would be wise to have officers who move around seeing what should be done to enhance the welfare of the people. If there are no officers who go round to see what should be done there will be no activity. Places like Coffee Bay and others which were established by the white people are important points. There was a request for a tarred road between Viedgesville and Coffee Bay and it was shown that there are many cars which traverse that area, but the roads are so bad and the bridges are lacking. If this bridge were put in order there would be many more people visiting Coffee Bay knowing that they would have access even to resorts on the Pondoland side of the river. I appeal to the Government to accede to our request. You will note that when a man dies on the way to another place his people will never forget that that person died there. We shall not forget that this child died on the road to Ngqeleni and it was on account of that faulty bridge that the child died. I shall repeat that, because it is a sore point with us. I will ask the Government to treat this as a matter of urgency. We know there are many applications for bridges throughout the Transkei and this is because of the heavy rains which have fallen recently. There have been many requests before because some of the bridges were built by the Republican Government many years ago and in that way the Republican Government showed that bridges are a necessity. Those bridges suited the people of those times, but times have changed . There is a suitable bridge over the Mtakatye River and also over the Mdumbi. Those are proper bridges and they lead to this proposed bridge over the Umtata River. Those bridges were quite suitable but when the constructors reached the Umtata River they did not construct a proper bridge. I now appeal to the hon members of the House that we must improve the present bridge over the Umtata River.
bear certain names, although they are of great help. Instead of these men being praised for their productivity they are now jeered at as if they are merely subhuman. Those are some of the reasons why we appeal to the Government to see that factories are established there and to make that area between Tabankulu and Mount Frere a growth point. We cannot wholly rely on the assistance we obtain from the Transkei. We cannot countenance the idea that we are a labour reservoir. Though agriculture is the backbone of a people we cannot all of us, one hundred per cent of the people, rely on being farmers. Mr Chairman and hon members, the discussions have been most exhaustive and I will not repeat what has already been said. With those words I whole-heartedly support this motion. CHAIRMAN : Hon members of the House, it would appear to me this motion is non-contentious and almost everything that has been said is being repeated. In the premises, therefore, I shall call upon the mover to reply. CHIEF N. T. SIGCAU: Mr Chairman and hon members, I am very glad that this motion is unanimously agreed to. In a way it is natural that it should be so because this motion carries a very important argument in so far as economic distribution , the migratory labour system and other matters are concerned . Of course, it is in the interests of the Transkeian citizens that industrial growth points should be distributed all over the Transkei . It would be very unfair for the Transkei itself to practise the migratory labour system which has been a thorn for so many years in black society. Anyway, Mr Chairman, this motion has been well explained by the speakers and I think everybody is quite aware of the importance of the subject matter, therefore I do not think it is necessary for me to say much in reply. The last thing I will mention is that I implore the Government to carry this matter to a successful implementation. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Question put and motion caried unanimously. CONSTRUCTION OF BRIDGE MOUTH
MR P. N. NKOSIYANE : I second the motion. MR N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support this motion. The motion is a request for a bridge at the Umtata Mouth. The reason why I stand up to speak is because I have also used those roads. I was travelling from Umtata past Umtata Mouth and I noticed the road from here passed through Mqanduli to Coffee Bay. Now I want to travel across the Umtata Mouth from Coffee Bay and I cannot take that road, short as it is, because of its condition. I have also noticed that there are people who wish to travel along the coast but because of the unsuitability of this bridge they cannot use that road. That is why we support the idea that a bridge be constructed there to meet modern needs. It is now necessary that we should move about the coast when we want a rest, and that is also where we get blessed and spend a happy time, because the sea breeze is so pleasant. GOVT MEMBER : Who accompanies you? (Laughter) MR JAFTA: It does not matter who accompanies you as long as it is your choice. I am not after my personal interests now. I am concerned with the public interest. There are many people from the labour centres such as the Reef who travel to Umtata and would like to continue to the coast. If we modernize these roads we will give the Transkei a good name. It is important that we support this motion and request the Roads and Works Department to treat this as a matter of urgency. It is not necessary to have to repeat what other people have said but the wisest thing is to look at the core of the matter and attend to that. What is important is that this road is a necessity not only to the people of the Transkei but to all the people of the country, so that they can move freely. That is why I support the hon chief from Mqanduli and I wish that this motion will succeed. CHIEF S. F. GWADISO : Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to second this motion which has been piloted by the hon chief. He has mentioned a subject which touches us sorely, because I have been struggling for the reconstruction of this particular bridge. The Government will pardon me and not take me as someone who is attacking it, but when we bring such matters into this House we usually get the reply
: UMTATA
CHIEF S. C. DALASILE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should consider the advisability of constructing a bridge on the Umtata Mouth on the road from Coffee Bay to Ngqeleni district." Mr Chairman, when one moves a motion here one is expressing the opinion of the pople. The road from Coffee Bay to Ngqeleni district over the Umtata River is a short cut to Ngqeleni, Port St John's and even to Umtata. That bridge is a very important one and has created hardships in the neighbouring area. There was a bridge built by former administrations to provide a crossing for ox-wagons. It was a low bridge, Mr Chairman, because the people who then traversed that area used ox-wagons. Finding that river in flood they would simply camp on the river bank and when the water subsided they knew they could get through. They never foresaw modern times and the advent of motorcars. Those bridges are outdated and dangerous to modern traffic. There were certain measured poles there and the people knew if the water reached a certain level the ox-wagon would be able to cross. Today these short poles are exposed and the driver thinks it is safe to cross and just drives in and the car is washed away. A shopowner and a schoolchild have been washed away trying to cross that bridge. That was a nasty accident touching our Government. It has created a feeling of friction among the Pondos of Ngqeleni and the Tembus of Mqanduli district because people will not forget that a child has been drowned in this river on account of the absence of a bridge. The people of Mqanduli will be reluctant to send their children to schools in the Ngqeleni area. The Governmnt may be able to remedy that sore point. If the bridge is not treated as an urgent matter there will be dissatisfaction among the people of Ngqeleni and Mqanduli. We shall hold the Government responsible in the absence of this bridge if there is a drowning in that river. We have approached the hon Minister many times, urging his department to build this bridge. In Xhosa a person who does not move is just as good as dead. Those people get buried as a 150.
that we should contact them in their offices. The mover will remember that in former times we had to go to these officials in their offices. At that time the late Mr Ndamse was present and even today during the time of the present Minister I have gone to his office accompanied by the mover. We who live on the coast have been worried about this matter, and similarly in regard to a bridge over the Umtata Mouth. Over the Umtata River there is a way out because people can take a detour, but down at the coast we have no alternative. The day we were in the office maps were produced and we were shown on the map the route taken by the road. When we attempted to raise the question in this House we were referred to the offices, but nothing resulted from our visit to those offices. The electorate questioned us about the results and we had to tell them we referred the matter to the department but there had been no outcome. Sometimes people lose their livestock and they are taken across the river, but because the river is in flood it is impossible for them to trace their stolen stock. The thieves have people who can swim when the river is in flood. MR K. M. GUZANA: And can the cattle swim too? CHIEF GWADISO: Now you are interfering with me. Don't put words into my mouth, hon member. This river is a danger to people because at times people cross the river before it is in flood and sometimes on their return home they are swept away and drowned by the flood. We are not fighting the Government but are merely asking them to consider our request. The motion which was piloted by the hon Mr Vapi in this House is one of the most important motions. It would not be a correct procedure to start with the latest request and not to begin with the first requests. Because of the bad condition of the existing bridge mentioned in this motion, even the roads leading to the bridge have been dismally neglected. I support what has been said by the mover namely, that they should have inspectors to see what should be done. These other officers live in Umtata and do not see what is happening outside in the districts. Even as I came to Umtata I found the road in such bad condition that I cannot say what is happening. Mr Chairman, those bridges, which in fact were called causeways, should by now have been reconstructed . They are not in any respect good bridges when a person has to go a roundabout way to reach his destination. In so saying I hope the Government will not think I am attacking them , but I am trying to show them what to do. MR P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support this motion. I introduced a similar motion in 1969 and the Government knows that there is this need in that particular area. I say I stand to support this motion and to point out that it is negligence on the part of the department concerned. When I moved this motion it was pointed out that the matter should be discussed by the two regions of Dalindyebo and Nyanda and those two regions should then discuss the matter with the department. Taking this idea to the department, the department now asks who will foot the bill. The Government wants to be sure that it will not lose. The administration consists of various grades from the tribal authority, the regional authority until you get to the central government, and these people take a long way round in order to make sure nothing is ever done. People are washed away at this crossing because of the lack of a bridge. We have pointed out about all these bridges and of the danger to lives. There is a lot of traffic crossing that river to get to Coffee Bay and Hole-in-the-Wall. The Government is not interested at all in the roads. I have pointed out that just near here at Jixini there is no road because the Government will not build a road there. We do not blame the Government because of the recent heavy rains, but the Government is not taking it upon itself to repair these roads now. I now urge the Government to repair these roads, particuarly the bridge now under discussion. It is a very important bridge which connects two regions, the Dalindyebo and Nyanda regions. I mention these two regions so that these two regional authorities can approach the Government and even spend their own funds to put this bridge into repair. If my suggestion is followed it will not take long to bring this about. This is what I have to add to the discussion on this motion. The hon Minister
in charge of roads should pull himself up, because the roads are impassable. With those words I shall resume my seat. MR B. P. VAPI : Mr Chairman and hon members, now is the time to consider priorities and I believe the first bridges to be attended to are those which connect roads along the coast. Mr Chairman, as we will soon achieve independence it is necessary that a lot of fencing should be bought so that some fencing can be done along the roads, but in the fences there should be gates and policemen stationed at those gates to keep watch. CHAIRMAN: Hon member, we are dealing with a motion in connection with a bridge over the river at Umtata Mouth. Please come as close to the motion as possible. MR VAPI : Mr Chairman, I was still putting my theory in order that I should associate myself with the motion. This bridge is necessary because on the lower side of the Transkei we are bounded by the ocean and there will be no need for a fence there. Mr Chairman, I am pleased when a motion of this nature is introduced because it is clear to me that the Transkei should be well protected. (Laughter) Mr Chairman, when the Transkei is independent it will have a lot of enemies who will make use of these roads. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN: I request this hon member to be as pertinent as possible to this motion. The motion is about the Umtata Mouth bridge. MR VAPI : Mr Chairman, I support this motion that a bridge should be constructed over the Umtata Mouth, but, Mr Chairman, I have a right to give reasons why I support this motion. I thought when I made that explanation that I was clearing up a certain point - namely, that the bridge is close to the coast. We cannot run away completely from the fact that the bridge will stop the terrorists. (Laughter) Mr Chairman, I do not suggest that there will be difficulty in constructing this bridge because there are Italians who are experts at bridge-building. They are known right throughout the world as experts and the Government must be aware of people like Grinakers. Grinakers have destroyed our motor vehicles. You buy a car and the car does not last long. It becomes damaged very soon because of the bad condition of the roads. We should go and employ Italians to build our roads and do away with the Greeks. (Laughter) All the Greeks should be sent out of the Transkei. Mr Chairman, I think I have stated my opinion sufficiently in supporting this motion. I believe that my friends on the Opposition side fear I may expose them - namely, that they have something to do with these Russians. (Laughter CHAIRMAN : Hon members, I have been trying to influence the speaker to be relevant and pertinent to this motion. Irrelevant matters which have nothing to do with the motion are out of order. I will request the hon member please to comply with my request. MR VAPI: Mr Chairman, I thought I should touch upon all aspects of the motion. CHAIRMAN : I think this non-contentious motion has been thoroughly canvassed, so I shall call upon the mover to sum up. CHIEF S. C. DALASILE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to thank those members who have contributed to the discussion on this motion. I have not heard a single opinion against the motion, which means even those hon members who have said nothing have accepted it. I will not say much, Mr Chairman, but I would point out and stress the fact that the bridge near the sea coast is important. I shall urge the department concerned to treat this as a matter of urgency because it is not only I who wants this bridge. It is the people who want it. If this matter is not attended to I shall have to visit the office concerned more frequently. I shall ask to be handed over the key of the hon Minister's office so that one day I may lock him in. (Laughter) Anyway, that is just a passing remark, as the hon Minister is quite a friend of mine. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Question put and motion carried unanimously.
SHORT CUT TO MALUTI TOWNSHIP MR D. J. NDLELENI : members, I move:151 .
Mr Chairman and hon
CHAIRMAN : Hon members of the House, I will again request the members to comply with the Rules of the House. I have a feeling, particularly when we are about to rise that there is disharmony in this House and also the people in the gallery have a tendency to march out before the Chairman has gone out. They should realise they are there in the gallery by sheer privilege. The Assembly adjourned until 2.15 p.m.
"that in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should cosider the advisability of taking over the erection of a five-mile road branching from the Ongeluk's/Mount Fletcher fork main road straight to Maluti Township to save residents of Ludidi's, Matandela's, Lupindo's and Moshesh administrative areas from travelling via Mataticle and thus paying extra to get to their magistrate at Maluti." Mr Chairman, before piloting this motion I feel I must first of all draw the attention of the House to the fact that towards the end of last year the magistrate's offices in Matatiele were moved to the Maluti Township, which is about seven miles outside Matatiele. This was done, unfortunately, without making alternative transport facilities available from Matatiele to the township, thus the residents of the areas I have already mentioned for example, the people in Ludidi's administrative area have to pay R2,40 to get to Matatiele and when they arrive there they are left with the problem of looking for transport to get to Maluti Township. The only alternative is to resort to taxi services, which amounts to not less than R2 per passenger. This is a thorny question among the residents of these areas. They have approached me time and again to pilot the matter through the regional authority so as to alleviate the situation. The regional authority unanimously recommended this motion and further pursued the matter, but to no avail. The people, seeing no progress has been made, resorted to bringing the same question up in all the magistrate's quarterly meetings. Now, this alternative route which will cut the expenses of these passengers is only a portion of about five miles, deviating from the main road mentioned in the motion straight to the Maluti Township. From the main road it passes through the Magadla administrative area and Khoapa administrative area and joins the main road going from Qacha's Nek to Maluti. This road was started by the tribal authority and for a portion of about three miles it is possible to travel by motor vehicle. It is only a matter of extending the road and gravelling it properly, so as hon members will realise it is only a small portion of about three miles which has not as yet been commenced with. Under the circumstances, Mr Chairman, I appeal to hon members to support the motion.
AFTERNOON SESSION CONSTRUCTION OF BRIDGE OVER KENEGHA RIVER MR D. J. NDLELENI: Mr Chairman and hon members, I move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should consider the advisability of erecting a bridge over the Kenegha River which cuts the Nkosana administrative area into two areas. " Mr Chairman, here is another short and straightforward motion. The Nkosana administrative area is divided into two as a result of the Kenegha River. Problems created by this division are as follows :- On the one side of the river there is only one Std 2 school, whereas on the other side of the river there are two primary schools with a JSC school. Further, on the other side there is the Sibi Senior Secondary School. A TB clinic is also situated only on one side of the river. Plantations are also on one side of the river only. Grazing for the cattle of the residents of this area is on the one side of the river and on the opposite side of the grazing area are dipping tanks. Now, this being a big river we encounter people drowning, cattle drowning and so on. Reperesentations were made through the Bunga long ago for the erection of this same bridge. Again, about three to five years ago the same motion was taken up with the local regional authority and this was strongly recommended by the regional authority. Now, the road branching from the Qacha's Nek road through Mafube primary school over to the Sibi Secondary School through the river and joining the Queen's Mercy road is a very busy road. This length of road is hardly 20 miles and it is a very busy road. Under the circumstances the representations were made for this road to be undertaken by the Department of Roads and Works. Unfortunately, there has been no definite "yes" or "no" from the Department of Roads and Works. Until the time of this parliament people had given up hope and they therefore asked me to appeal to this Assembly to consider the erection of this bridge. Under those circumstances, hon members , I appeal to you to support this motion. CHIEF N. SIBI: I second the motion, Mr Chairman. Question put and motion carried unanimously.
MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I support the motion. Thank you, Mr Chairman. (Laughter) CHIEF M. MAGADLA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support this motion. It is a well known fact that all deliberations in any area end up at the magistrate's office. In these areas the young people are so wild and stock theft is so rife that it is necessary that the roads to magistrates' offices and police stations should be kept in good repair. To make the journey less expensive this is the shortest road to the magistrate's office. The trouble is that people are so modernized today that horses are out of the question. The people ride in motorcars, buses and other motor vehicles. From this turn- off to Matatiele six or seven miles have been added to the road and when one travels from Maluti to Matatiele it is the same distance. Old-age and disability pensioners have difficulty when they have to go to the pay point at the magistrate's office. You may want to go and make certain reports at the magistrate's office and sometimes chiefs and headmen are requested to call at the magistrate's office and they cannot reach the office although summoned, and the magistrate therefore takes exception. With the road in this condition there are not many vehicles which traverse that part of the country. They are few and they are expensive to run. With those words, I support this motion. CHAIRMAN: If there are no more speakers on this motion I shall call upon the mover to reply. MR D. J. NDLĖLENI : Mr Chairman and hon members, this being a straightforward motion I hope it will have an easy passage in this House and I therefore wish to thank my supporter who has just spoken on the motion. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Question put and motion carried unanimously. M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, in order to have a rest from this monotony and humdrum of the building of bridges and such things, I move that the House adjourn until 2.15 p.m.
ABOLITION OF PASS LAWS ETC. MR P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman and hon members , I move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to abolish all the Pass Laws, including the influx control regulations and the migrant labour system etc." Mr Chairman , I have moved the motion in this House at the instance of our people who have been moving around the country and finding the pass laws are a difficulty. They also have the difficulty of being placed here and there because of the labour bureaux and influx control regulations. This does not refer to the Coloureds who are in the favoured class and the Whites who are in the most favoured class. The pass laws have played havoc with the black people of this country. One finds himself in the labour centres and a man who is shabbily dressed demands a pass from him not a policeman, because if a man is not in uniform you can never be sure whether or not he is a policeman. This man is very rude when he demands your pass. You have to produce this document at once. Sometimes you place it in one of your secret pockets and it is difficult to take it out. This man examines the document and asks when you came to the area. Even if you came a few days ago you have got to say you have just arrived. He asks if you are aware that you are only allowed 72 hours in this area and you say you don't know, because you are intimidated. You are
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told you have to leave the area at once. That is a good policeman who says that. Others are more harsh and will just put you in the van. Special vehicles have been built by the Government just to convey Blacks. We don't know why they were built. These vehicles operate from distant suburbs and collect at Johannesburg Central and then distribute these people to the Johannesburg police stations or gaols. These people are collected during the daytime. They are not people suspected of being criminals at night. People leave this area sometimes without permits because these permits are only sent to those areas periodically. There is plenty of work but no permits, and when one is offered employment one has to go to the registration office. Then the pass office will not register you as an employee because you are fresh from these areas, and you have not been recruited into that area. People in Johannesburg and Cape Town know that a person who just goes into those areas to seek work are not desirable workers. A suitable worker goes to the registration office to seek a work permit. This law is harsh in that it is not all the races which are affected. It is only the Blacks. That is why we say this Government should negotiate with the Republican Government to get this system abolished, because it is a shameful system. You leave this country with the dignified knowledge that you are a member of parliament and then you get off the bus or train and somebody says: Where is your pass? Then you take out your document and you understand you are in a difficulty. You are just pushed into the van willy-nilly, and now that independence is coming how will we enjoy it when these Whites are so hostile to us? These Whites move freely about the country and no-one ever demands passes of them. There is now a good pass -- the identity card and it would be a good thing if we could carry only identity cards with our photographs so that we are easily identified. These present reference books have all these requirements just to see that the African does not move about freely. These reference books keep an African where he is. He has no right to move about and buy food. He just has to remain where he is. It affects our children in this manner. Our children will not be allowed in Reef schools unless he is a child of that area, whereas I am the natural father of that child because I have remained in that area for a long period. Because he is black he has to produce some document to say why he is there. Are we cattle? How shall we move about carrying documents, because it is only beasts which are moved about with permits? Now it is a permit for a beast and a permit for me. I think we will enjoy better times if the pass laws are abolished. I think it is the Whites who should be made to carry passes. (Laughter) They should carry passes and these should be demanded from them just as they are demanded from us. It does not matter whether you are a minister or a highly placed person, if you get out of that car someone will say: Kaffir, come here. (Laughter) That man is a minister but he happens to be black. You are not given any identity document to go to Johannesburg but are just told: No, you can go. If I were not as sensible as I am I would have lost my residential rights in that area. I have a house in Masinga Street and when I left the Defence Force I was given that house as an ex-soldier, but as I was going round I was told I was no longer recognized as the occupier. I asked those people if, since Whites who are resident in the Transvaal go to Parliament in Cape Town, their rights are taken away from them. I told them I am a member of parliament in the Transkei and said I fought in the defence of this country. I was a soldier. I said they were not going to take this house away from me because I am black. (Laughter) The municipal authorities now realised they were face to face with quite a problem. They left me my residential rights because I pointed out they could not take those rights away from me. This Government should negotiate with the Republican Government that this multiplicity of pass documents be done away with. We should be given identity cards which are carried also by Europeans, instead of all these restrictions that one cannot spend a night somewhere. We all understand what I have said about the pass laws. The pass is not a guarantee that you will be found out. Surely if you do wrong you will be found out without the pass. Even as far as the tax laws are concerned it is not
necessary for you to carry documents. There are people, to be sure, to see that the taxes are paid, and everybody will pay if we are just rounded up. It is not necessary for us to carry these documents about. One would carry an identity card and one would have selfrespect. We carry these reference books now and we are always reminded that we have only 72 hours in that area. With those words, I move this motion and I do not require any amendment. (Laughter) Everybody moves amendments in this House. This law is bad so how could anyone move an amendment? I am trying to get rid of an evil that worries the people. I do not know who would ever move an amendment to support law from Bloemfontein. If that person is an elected member and moves an amendment he will not be elected again (Laughter) Yes, if he is a chief he will come to this House, but otherwise never. An elected member says if an elected member votes against this he has no sense. (Laughter) I have now said what I wanted to say. I am appealing to all elected members to support this motion. MR C. DIKO : Mr Chairman and hon members, now I am an elected member and I have come to this House by the will of the people and I will still come to this House in spite of the amendment I am going to make. (Laughter) I am definitely amending the motion from the hon member for Mqanduli. Now, I wish in Motion 35 to delete all the words after the word "advisability" and substitute the following :"of abolishing all pass laws immediately after independence. " The motion will therefore read:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should consider the advisability of abolishing all pass laws immediately after independence. " (Interjections) Now, Mr Chairman, for the education of hon members of this House I want to remind the House that in the 1974 session this motion was moved by the hon member for Emboland, Chief S. S. Majeke: "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should make strong representations to the Republican Government for the abolition of the system of controlled labour." This motion was No. 5 and was put to the Republican authorities whose reply was subsequently referred to the Cabinet. So we want you to understand that this motion has been in the House in 1974 and then it was again in this House in 1975 by the hon Mr Nkosiyane. Now, in 1975 Mr Nkosiyane moved: "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Republican Government should be requested by resolu tion of this House to relax the influx control regulations. " MR L. L. MGUDLWA: Abolish is not relax. There is a difference. MR DIKO : The outcome was that the Assembly adopted an amendment to this motion and the amended motion reads as follows:- "That in the opinion of this Assembly the steps taken by the heads of the Homelands Governments in approaching the Prime Minister of the Republic of South Africa requesting a review of the influx control regulations are highly commendable and the Government should continue to conduct dialogue with the Prime Minister in this direction." Now, of course I don't blame those who have never gone to school. You see, it does not matter what you do, an illiterate man will always be illiterate no matter how clever he may be, and in dealing with the interstate matters you have to be educated. CHAIRMAN: Hon members of the House, in view of the authentic quotations made by the hon member for Tabankulu it is quite clear that this question was discussed in previous sessions and in view of rule 37 of the rules of this House I rule this motion to be out of order. BUILDING OF TEACHER TRAINING SCHOOL : LIBODE MR E. V. NDAMASE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I shall first of all crave the indulgence of this Assembly to allow me to amend this motion. I would like to delete the words "Marubeni administrative area" and the word "district" after "Libode" and substitute therefor the words "any suitable site" and the word "village" after "Libode". The motion as amended will read thus:-
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and children from other regions have secondary consideration. I cannot say we are being parochial, but we would like to have a training school in our region. Again, this motion has been brought about by what we see happening, when so many pensioned teachers have now been re-employed to teach our children. Children now have to be taught PT and I cannot imagine an old man of my age jumping about (Laughter) and therefore the children will not receive adequate physical education from these pensioned teachers. I would also add that these older teachers are only acquainted with old methods and cannot now cope with modern methods of teaching. Some of the older teachers were trained in the old-fashioned methods so how can they tackle such subjects as functional mathematics? I am grateful to this House because there appears to be no opposition to this motion. MR H. PAMLA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I rise in support of this motion No. 36. Now, reasons have been advanced by the two previous speakers, pleading for the establishment of a teacher training school in Libode district. It has now become quite clear to me that such facilities as training and technical schools should rather be considered on a regional basis, and this idea of decentralizing big training schools seems to be the popular opinion of most hon members of this House. I think this system would work very well if it were planned in co-operation with the Planning Section of the Department of Education. While we are anxious to have an adequate supply of properly trained teachers, at the same time we should avoid an overproduction of teachers. We all realise that this used to happen in the past when we had what was called "Native" education. So many teachers had to go to the mines to look for work because they could not find schools in which to teach. Now, why I lay emphasis on this co-operation between the Planning Section and the various authorities in the establishment of teacher training schools is because we want to know the demand on a regional basis and then through the training schools we can supply the demand. The new concept of education demands that the pupil/teacher ratio should be very much limited so that, Mr Chairman, I think it is really a good idea to have these training schools on a regional basis, because there you will have a limited number of pupil teachers and at least you will be able to supply those pupil teachers with all the necessary skills and techniques of their profession more easily than when you have a large group in a training school. One other major requirement in establishing a training school is the question of a sufficient number of practising schools adjacent to the training centre. All the exteachers in this Assembly are aware of the old approach to teacher training where you had a practising school attached to the training school and the student teachers were taught certain principles of education, such as from the known to the unknown, and then they were sent to a group of about six or seven pupils to demonstrate those principles in their lessons. The new approach is against that process. A pupil teacher must be taken to a real learning situation. He must be kept at a well established school and he should operate there for almost a week or more. In other words, he is being trained to face what he will actually find when he gets out to be employed as a teacher. If, therefore, an area has been inspected for a teacher training centre and meets these requirments, I see no reason why the department should be against it. It is also important to note that the intention of the planners of education is to raise the entrance qualification to a teacher training course and this, of course, will inevitably reduce the number of pupils who go for teacher training. Now, Mr Chairman, with those few words I think this is quite a sound motion and anybody who wants to say anything against it is perhaps a soft thinker.
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should consider the desirability of making funds available for the building of a teacher training school at any suitable site in the Libode village to produce more teachers for the Transkei." CHAIRMAN: Is there a seconder to this? CHIEF D. D. P. NDAMASE: I second, Mr Chairman. MR NDAMASE: Coming back to the motion as it stands now, I am going to ask all the hon members of this Assembly to please rally behind me and support the motion, as this is a non-contentious motion. We are all agreed that there is a general shortage of teachers in the Transkei. We are all aware of the serious shortage of teachers in almost every district of the Transkei and I am sure I am expressing the wishes of my hon paramount chief and the members of Nyanda region when I say the position is chaotic in Western Pondoland since there is no teacher training college available in Western Pondoland. It is my opinion, Mr Chairman, that if a teacher training college could be provided at Libode it would more than avert the serious shortage of teachers in that region, and since the college, once established, has to cater for all the students from different parts of the Transkei (because I am sure no college, once established in the Transkei will refuse applications from other regions) so the building of a college at Libode will make it easy for many aspiring students to enrol at that college. This will make the position easier for the teaching personnel. You are all aware that as the position now stands we cannot embark on a merit selection. We have to make use of any scum. Where there are no teachers available you are forced to take any rubbish, and for that matter, any drunkard. (Laughter) These people are a bad example to the very children we want to be trained. The Department of Education, on the other hand, finds it very difficult to provide the much needed essential services. You cannot be chasing away useless teachers when you have no good teachers available. You have to choose between right and wrong and so in this case you have no option but to take the wrong. What good can be served by taking rubbish? I feel, therefore, that if we could have more colleges available for training teachers the position would be much easier. I need not mention that all departments which are the backbone of the State in any country exist through the availability of teacher training colleges. In any country where there are no teachers people must naturally remain backward. We are trying to forge ahead with our education. How is this possible if no teachers are available, or only a few are available? Are we going to allow the present status quo to continue? Will that do any good to this coming independence of our country? Are we going to encourage our children to study nursing just because there are no schools available for teacher training? Are we going to allow our boys to proceed to the mines just because there are no teacher training facilities? I am sure, hon members, that this is a motion worthy of giving your fullest support. I am therefore expecting you to support the motion. Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. CHIEF D. D. P. NDAMASE : Mr Chairman and hon members, seeing there is no other speaker ready I will take this opportunity to support the motion. Libode village is more or less central to the three districts comprising Western Pondoland. Transport facilities are also available. I say this because a training school is where students are trained to go out and teach other children. There are over six primary and junior secondary schools around Libode village where these trainees will gain their practical teaching experience. I am of the opinion that there is an area in the village which could be made available for a training school site. Electric current has only reached Umtata so far and we feel that on the line to Port St John's a branch could be diverted to Libode. There should be a plentiful supply of water at a training school and on the site which we now contemplate there is a sufficient reservoir of water. I have already mentioned that transport is not a difficulty, and even with children who are taken ill the Ntlaza Hospital is nearby and they could also be taken easily to Umtata. If you look around you will find almost every region has a training school. In most training schools the tendency is first of all to absorb the local children
MR R. S. MADIKIZELA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support this non-contentious motion. Thank you, Mr Chairman. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN: I call upon the mover to reply. MR E. V. NDAMASĖ : Mr Chairman and hon members, I have to thank the hon members of this House for the fine support they have given to me, for indeed it is clear to every right-thinking person that 154.
this is a non-contentious motion and therefore a motion which deserves the support of every right-thinking person. Only a wild man from the glens of this country would not support it. I therefore expect this House to carry this motion unanimously. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN: Hon member, where is the amendment? I will draw the attention of the House to the principle that any amended motion should be before the Secretary before the expiry of the debate. Question put and motion carried unanimously. PROVISION OF STREET LIGHTING IN MUNICIPAL LOCATIONS MR T. M. MAKAULA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should be requested to approach all municipalities in the Transkei to provide street lights at black locations under them." Mr Chairman, it has become necessary in all locations where Africans reside that street lights should be provided. These places are very dark and where there is no light everything happens in the dark in these locations. That is where robbers and pickpockets have the opportunity. They kill people and rape people because it is dark in the streets, whereas if there were lights there those people would be found out. I have been asked by the people to introduce this motion and those are the reasons I put forward. I appeal to the hon members to support me in this motion. It is as clear as white against a black background. I will not say anything more, but I am appealing to the hon members to support me. CHIEF G. B. SIYABALALA: I second the motion, Mr Chairman. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and non members, I crave the indulgence of the House because I am crippled. I support the motion as is. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHIEFTAINESS A. MOSHESH : Mr Chairman and hon members, I wish to support this motion because it has been introduced to improve the situation in the locations where we stay. We are happy in this House because there are lights and we know nothing will happen to us because we are in safety. If the fights were to go off in this building we would all crowd to the door to get out. (Laughter) We are looking forward to the celebration of independence and we do not know what the position will be in these villages with no lights. As the mover has not suggested which town should receive priority I will now ask that lights be installed in my location before all others. Just imagine if I have to receive a visitor in my house and I prepare everything to accommodate him but put him in a dark room. What would he think of me? The visitor will be afraid that I will do him some harm, and the position is the same in locations which are without lights. It would be wasting the time of the House to say more, because the motion is clear and will be accepted by the whole House. CHAIRMAN: As there appear to be no further speakers on this motion I shall call upon the mover to reply. MR T. M. MAKAULA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I will not be long but will take th opportu nity to thank my seconder and the other hon members who supported the motion. I am happy no-one has opposed it. Question put and motion carried unanimously. CHIEF P. JOZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, as the mover of Motion No. 38 is not present at the moment, I was asked that we should postpone this motion or alternatively that I be allowed to move. CHAIRMAN: Is there a seconder to the proposal that the motion be postponed until the mover is present? MR C. DIKO: I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. ESTABLISHMENT OF POLICE STATION TO COMBAT STOCK THEFT IN MATATIELE DISTRICT MR D. J. NDLELENI : Mr Chairman and hon members, I move:-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should consider the advisability of erecting a stock theft police station at Sehlabeng in Matatiele as this area is about 25 miles away from the nearest police station." CHIEF N. SIBI: I second, Mr Chairman. MR NDLELENI : Fortunately for hon members of this Assembly I have not got time to waste over this motion, as it is straightforward.. The trouble which actuated my electorate to introduce this motion is the alarming rate of stock theft along the Drakensberg Mountains. As hon members will be aware, we are on the border of Lesotho and ever since the white farmers were moved from those areas there have been no fences stopping the free movement of our stock. However, efforts were made to erect a fence by the Transkeian Government, but overnight the fence is cut to pieces because these are merciless thieves whom we consider to be coming from the other side of the Drakensberg Mountains. When they visit you during the night you are found without a single head of stock the following morning. Without saying very much about this thieving, I just want to quote this very last weekend when I went home with some of the hon members here. One resident found eight cattle missing on the morning of last Saturday, and a couple of miles away from the same kraal another three were nowhere to be seen. Of course, in tracing the tracks of the lost stock it is a common thing to find that they lead right to the mountains. As far as this short story which occurred last weekend is concerned, in our area it is a common and daily happening. Unfortunately there are at present few police stations in that area and, as will be seen in the motion on the order paper, the very station proposed in the motion is about 25 miles away from the nearest existing police station. Unfortunately, these stations which have already been established do not have sufficient manpower to cover a wide area. As will be notified from one of the questions I posed to the hon the Minister of Justice yesterday, police vans alone are not of much use in that area, especially when they have to try to pursue these groups of people who go about stealing other people's livestock. In most cases these police have to have horses to traverse the rocky mountainous area. I am hoping that the hon the Minister of Justice has assented to this request that our stock theft police patrols will be accorded the privilege of being provided with horses on a subsidized basis. Arising from that, I also hope, of course, that the Department of Justice will consider giving an allowance to such police who are using horses. Coming down to the motion, I would like to add that we are exposed to such merciless people who help themselves without trying to work for their living, hence we appeal to this Assembly to consider giving that area an additional police station. I know this stock theft profession is practised all over the country, but the position becomes better in other parts of the Transkei as people can easily try to trace their stock when it is within the same country, unlike the Maluti area where, if anyone was lucky enough to chase these people who are running away with their livestock, once they jump across the border to the Drakensberg Mountains one has to return and ask for a permit. This is a very long process which entails going back to your particular town and asking the magistrate for a permit to go and look for your stock. By the time you have obtained a passport to go there your stock is nowhere to be seen. In our local regional authority, through representations from various residents of the arca, they unanimously recommended that even tribal authorities, if not the regional authority, should be allowed to issue permits in such emergency cases, but unfortunately such representations were not favourably entertained by the department. We are therefore appealing to our Transkeian Government to consider helping the people of that area, as they are more exposed than all other people in the Transkei to stock thieving. I hope hon members will not accuse me of saying all these motions are straightforward and short and non-contentious. I hope you will feel for the people of that area and consider the conditions under which they live, hence my appeal to the hon members to support, this motion. MR S. A. XOBOLOLO : Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support this motion, particular155.
aircraft. It had been found that 20 children had died from an epidemic of measles and whooping cough. All children in the area were immunised and 356 children were treated for minor conditions. Two patients were transferred to Butterworth Hospital. The food situation was not found to be critical in the areas concerned as crops were still in the fields. The general dealers were, however becoming short of supplies . A follow-up team from the Department of Health will be revisiting the area again today. Thank you, Mr Chairman.
ly as this motion has reference to stock theft, which does not exist in Engcobo district. M/JUSTICE: Withdraw that, please. MR XOBOLOLO : In supporting this motion which deals with stock theft, I wish to point out that care should be taken to see that no people come from across the border and that there should be no-one from this side of the border who will go across the border in order to steal stock from the other side. It is undoubtedly the truth that as people come from one country to steal stock in another country it is not easy to follow up those thieves. Siminarly, if stock is stolen from the other country it is not easy for those people to follow their stolen stock. It is for that reason that I support this motion, because Engcobo people do not approve of stock thieving. (Laughter) If anyone who is a resident of Engcobo steals stock that person would not be in a position to take that stolen stock into his stock kraal. It should be noted that there is no need for us yet to ask for a police station to be established especially for stock theft in Engcobo. M/JUSTICE: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, I am sure this hon member has got a company known as Xobololo and Company for stock thieves, and that is why he is actually defending them . He must be brought to order, because he is defending the stock thieves of Engcobo. He must come to the motion. It says nothing about Engcobo. We will have something to say about Engcobo later. MR XOBOLOLO: Mr Chairman , I have made no attempt to defend stock thieves of Engcobo . What I am doing at present is supporting the motion . It is not of importance when I am supporting a motion that I should confine myself to this side. With those few words I support the motion. Thieves who come to steal should be stopped. M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman and hon members, apart from the fact that there seems to be a denudation of words as far as hon members are concerned, we cannot accept that each member will speak for less than half an hour. In that event I feel that the next speaker might find himself in the middle of his speech when five o'clock strikes and therefore I move that this House adjourns until tomorrow. M/EDUCATION: I second, Mr Chairman. The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 22 April, 1976.
NOTICES OF MOTION 47.
Mr. S. W. Mbanga gave notice to move :-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government be respectfully requested to extend to the registered residents of the Fingoland Region a uniform system of land tenure - viz FREEHOLD - in respect of their residential sites and ploughing plots." 48.
Mr. D. B, Mxutu gave notice to move :-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should consider urgently the advisability of establishing a Junior High School in the Administrative Area of the Hala Tribal Authority in the Engcobo District." ESTABLISHMENT OF POLICE STATION TO COMBAT STOCK THEFT IN MATATIELE DISTRICT The debate was resumed. CHIEF N. SIBI : Mr Chairman and hon members, I wish to discuss this motion. I stand up to explain further the situation we are involved in in regard to stock theft. The mover of the motion has explained the position in connection with the difficulties of police work in that area. As a result we are appealing to the Government that a police station be established at that place. I am not able to say definitely that the thieves come from Lesotho. It would seem that these theft take place among ourselves in our area. When we had a regional meeting recently there was a report that people had stolen stock from other people in the location. I discovered over the Easter recess that one man had lost eight cattle in the Sibi area. These were chosen. This makes me doubt that this is done by people from Lesotho, because they would not come all that way to make their choice of stock. We demand that the Government builds us a police station there. We are not trying to defend the Lesotho thieves. We are appealing to the Government that a police station be built at the place mentioned in the motion. This will protect our people against the stock theft that is carried on. We are quite aware that it is not only Lesotho thieves who are interfering with us, because we have these thieves amongst us. That should be made clear. There is something which affects the Lesotho people in that they have the chance of coming over the border to steal. We are aware that these people are separated from us by a fence and they use our grazing fields for their stock. Some of their stock was retained by the police and the people in the area, and they had to come and pay for them in order to have them released. They were charged the sum of R2 to R4 for a beast, more or less. They paid the fines and their stock was released to them. They left the message with our people that they had paid the fine and they would see to it that they got a refund from our beasts. This they did, because we have since discovered that they returned and stole five beasts from one kraal. The following morning a bag of salt was discovered at the kraal just to show they had come in to take the beasts. This shows that this man had not only come to steal, but also that he had come to despise our people. He left the salt to show he would come later to steal again. As a result we are asking the Government to place a police station there so that the police should patrol the border and our people will not have to suffer so much. With a police station nearby we would even ask that whoever had lost a beast should be given
THURSDAY, 22 APRIL 1976
Prayers were rad. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon members, I have to announce that the hon the Minister of Justice, Chief George Matanzima, will leave the Transkei on Saturday for Europe. He is attending a seminar in France and another in West Germany. He will be absent from this House for about two weeks. TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS M/HEALTH : Mr Chairman and hon members, allow me to make a report on an incident that occurred during this last weekend. It was brought to the notice of my department on Thursday, 15 April, that the area in the vicinity of the Kei and Tsomo Rivers had become isolated due to flooding. As access had been cut off by the washing away of the approaches to the only bridge providing access to the area it was not possible to gain access with conventional transport. The South African Defence Force was contacted and they made available a small helicopter from the Port Elizabeth base . The Secretary for Health inspected the area on Good Friday and determined the requirements for future action. A rough area was found which was considered to be suitable for use as a landing strip for a light aircraft. On the following day the Chief Nursing Officer and a team of health workers entered the area by light
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Government should be aware of such a posibility, It will also be necessary to increase the number of It police as well as the number of police stations. happens that when the thieves are greater in number than the police, the police fear to take action. Finally, as the last speaker stated, there is a probability that there are many thieves even in this area known as Sehlabeng. I believe after investigation it will be found that the perpetrators are residents of our own who steal stock and transmit it to Lesotho, and the thieves from Lesotho steal stock in Lesotho and transmit it to the Transkei. I would go further and suggest a civil guard being established to assist the police. That civil guard should be given power either to kill the thieves or to extract their eyes. (Interjections) You will then be in a position to know who the thieves are, because I maintain that the only person who can steal is your close neighbour who knows when you are present or away from home. There has been a complaint raised by most of the hon members, saying that they also meet the difficulty of obtaining permits to go to Lesotho. We ought to have a certain regulation which will allow stock owners to go to Lesotho whether they have permits or not, because when a thief has stolen your stock the thief has ample opportunity of removing it whilst you are still going about trying to obtain a passport or permit. Does it not surprise you that in your very own land you must first obtain a permit or passport in order to visit your friends? Is this not
a permit to cross over to Qacha's Nek to look for his beast, rather than have a person being stopped at the gate because he has no permit, or being referred to the magistrate's office at Maluti to get a permit in order to follow his stock. By the time this person gets a permit his beasts are already far into Lesotho. I am not only confining this issue of permits to this police station we are asking for, but I say all the police stations in Maluti area must be given authority to issue permits so that people can follow their stock into Lesotho. Other speakers have given all the necessary details and I need not go further. All I say is that I wish this appeal of ours will be attended to. I want this House to be aware that I am not only saying that Lesotho thieves will be dealt with, but all the thieves who are amongst us who are involved in this thieving will be dealt with by the provision of this police station. The place where we want the station established is a place which helps everybody to move freely in and out. You will be aware that in our country we have no dagga plantations but that is what you find in Lesotho. The dagga sellers make use of this exit in order to get their produce across the border and this is where they cross when they come to do their ordinary shopping. I have dealt with this motion, Mr Chairman, and I think everyone is clear about what we are asking. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA: Mr Chtairman and hon members, I am going to support this motion because we all suffer from this thieving. We would like the Government to take action against stock theft. The place where it is suggested a police station should be erected is very important, because when these thieves come across they are fully armed and they take your stock by force and issue a challenge. This reminds me of something which happened in Umtata, where the Madyibi family was murdered. It was daylight when the thieves came on this particular occasion. People gave chase but some people were killed. An armed force came to chase and chastise the people who were chasing the thieves. The first victim was a man taken out of his own hut in the presence of his wife and was killed. One member of the Madyibi family, on hearing screams, came out of his hut and when these people saw him he was also attacked. This crowd of people cut off his head. It is for that reason that a request is made that the Government should take action even to the extent of amputating some part of the body. There has been a suggestion that because of the trouble these thieves are causing their eyes should be cut out so that they are blind and cannot see the stock they wish to steal. It would be desirable that this police station should be put up as quickly as possible in order to avoid trouble in the locations. These police stations would afford people an opportunity to report to them so that any such occurrence could be stopped. We have another difficulty in that when these thieves are caught redhanded they employ the services of an attorney and are not convicted by the courts of law. That is why it is desirable that this House should make such a law as to prohibit any thief from employing the services of an attorney to defend him in a case of stock theft. It will be remembered that in this very House it was argued that if someone has lost his beast, after a period of six months the owner has no further claim on it. Is it right that even if the owner has lost his beast for years he has no further claim to his own stock? In fact, the police station which we want will also benefit the Government, because they do work for the Government. I speak of these police stations because ...
because you follow this policy which was given to you by the white people? CHAIRMAN: Hon member, you are not very relative to the motion. The motion is in connection with a police station at Sehlabeng, so please be pertinent. CHIEF MABANDLA: Mr Chairman, please excuse me. I was trying to solve this problem of passports which was mentioned by previous speakers. In truth the question of passports has been brought into being because of this separate development policy. In fine, I wish to state that this police station is a great necessity, and there is no need for any passport. (Laughter) Those in authority should solve this matter. I thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN : Hon members, I am of the opinion that this motion has been thoroughly canvassed by this Assembly. In the premises, therefore, I shall call upon the mover to please reply. MR D. J. NDLELENI : Mr Chairman and hon members, in delivering a short reply I am just going to make one comment. It is very clear that the stock which gets stolen in our area disappears into Lesotho. This is proved by numerous court cases relevant to this issue, but are the Basothos or better say are our brothers in Lesotho the only culprits as far as stock thieving is concerned? Evidently, as one of the speakers has mentioned, stock which is stolen from the Transkei is transported into Lesotho and those exchanged for cattle in Lesotho to this area. This shows clearly that what I would call these illegal stock exchange expeditions are working in company with people of both countries the Transkei and Lesotho. However, we have our small police units who are working against this anomaly and their work is really commendable, hence we ask our Transkeian Government to augment the number of these stock theft police stations. Lastly I wish to thank all the hon members who have apparently indicated that they support this motion, and as I am sitting down I am almost sure that this motion will be supported by the whole House. Thank you , Mr Chairman. Question put and motion carried unanimously.
CHAIRMAN: Hon member, the motion concerns a police station at Sehlabeng in Matatiele district Please stick to the motion. CHIEF MABANDLA: I thank you, Mr Chairman. It is necessary to expatiate on any motion. If you fail to do so, what you say will not go home and be made clear. I want to give a clear explanation as to why it is necessary for this police station to be built. It is of great importance. It will also be of great value that the residents of Lesotho should also be consulted in connection with this matter, because we should also bear in mind that even though we may have this police station these thieves are in a position to bribe these policeman. It is therefore necessary that the
INSTALLATION OF FM TOWER: UMZIMKULU DISTRICT MR H. PAMLA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should communicate with the Republican Government with a view to the installation of an FM tower in Umzimkulu as this particular area receives Zulu programmes only." Mr Chairman, this is a straightforward motion and it concerns people who come from the district of 157.
Umzimkulu so I expect non- Umzimkulu people to say nothing against this motion. Even my speakers will come from Umzimkulu. Mr Chairman, we have a rather clumsy situation in that district. The upper portion of Umzimkulu district does get these Xhosa programmes and a lot of the areas which are beyond the forests get no Xhosa at all. Now, I am afraid , Mr Chairman, I am no student of physical science. I do not know how sound travels. The little I learnt of physical science for examination purposes was the rate at which sound travels. Now, people with some knowledge of physical science might perhaps explain this situation which obtains in Umzimkulu . I don't even know the reasons for poor acoustics in an ordinary house. My only assumption, Mr Chairman, is that the presence of huge forests in that lower portion of Umzimkulu might perhaps be responsible for the failure of the FM tower at Mount Ayliff to distribute sound to reach the people who live on the other side of the forest. We have made some efforts on our own to get this situation corrected and we were told by Radio Bantu in Natal that they could not do anything to help us by way of including some Xhosa programmes because they were bound by regulation to disseminate all information through the medium of Zulu. Now, you will all agree with me that a radio is a very useful audio-visual aid. Ever since this idea of disseminating information through the medium of African languages was started we have found a marked improvement in the use of Xhosa , Zulu , etc. As a language agent the radio system has been of vast help in the development of African languages. These radio broadcasts in the various languages have brought about language consciousness amongst our people. The educated Xhosas some 25 years ago used to speak a mixture of English and Xhosa. Let me give you an example of the sort of thing one used to hear: "Ndimthe confront ngala problem ebesithetha ngayo ndathi discover ukuba he was aware into yokuba I am conversant ...." (Laughter) Now, ever since the advent of these radio broadcasts you find very few people today who speak Xhosa in that fashion. One of the reasons why we brought this motion to this House is that the Umzimkulu people have lost a lot of valuable government propaganda because of these Zulu programmes. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Propaganda? MR PAMLA: For instance , we only heard of military training when the whole business was done. M/HEALTH: Was that propaganda? MR PAMLA: I suppose I had better substitute the word "information" for "propaganda". (Laughter) Now, as I have said, we have lost a lot of valuable information through getting Zulu instead of Xhosa on our radios. I don't know what the practice is in Transkei education with regard to school radio lessons but in the Republic there is a special period that is set aside for school radio broadcast lessons. Now, if such a system were to be operated in the Transkei the Umzimkulu schools would be in a difficulty and it is also important to note that Umzimkulu people do not speak Xhosa. The people domiciled in that area come from the Baca tribe, the Ntlangwini, Pondo and Nzelu tribes. The Baca will say "kamba" instead of "hamba"; they will say "boba" instead of "thetha". You will realise that they speak these dialects at home and when they go to school they have to learn to speak Xhosa. Now, if we had Xhosa programmes these would be of great assistance , because the children would hear Xhosa right in their own homes before they go to school. Before I exhaust all the facts of this motion, Mr Chairman, I think I must be fair to other speakers and therefore I shall sit down. CHIEF P. JOZANA: I second the motion. CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support the motion. It is correct to state that we follow up things through news broadcasts and people wish to hear anything that is being said through the medium of their own language, such as that a great man in the Opposition spoke in the debate. (Laughter) That is why at times we are not interested in the question of propaganda. You heard the last speaker saying that it was mere propaganda, which means it is just something that the people listen to and follow. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Order, please.
CHIEF MABANDLA: Mr Chairman , I do not think there is any need to be lengthy because the motion is as clear as crystal. We would like immediate action to be taken so that the installation of this FM tower is attended to at once. Mr Chairman, I merely stood up to support this motion. CHIEF P. JOZANA : Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support this motion. The mover has already explained to this House that efforts were made to have some Xhosa items included in the Natal programme. I know why this was turned down. It is because the Natal Administration wanted to annex Umzimkulu district to Natal. (Laughter) We authorities in Umzimkulu, working with the Transkeian Government, opposed such a move . We are in this language difficulty, however. If you listen to me you will find I speak both Xhosa and Zulu and I mix the two languages. Our children speak the same, but let me point out that Umzimkulu children are so brilliant that they pass Xhosa with high marks. (Laughter) Because they are aware of their difficulties they listen very keenly to their instruction in Xhosa. We now appeal to the Government, that we should also have Xhosa in our programmes. You must be aware, hon members, that Umzimkulu is the stronghold of the Transkei administration. (Laughter) When we bring a motion we do not expect anyone not from Umzimkulu to stand up and oppose it. To show how solidly we stand behind the Government, during 1963 not a single person became a supporter of the Democratic Party and there has never been a supporter of the Democratic Party in the Umzimkulu district. (Laughter) CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA: That is nonsense. CHIEF JOZANA : To demonstrate that Umzimkulu is the stronghold of the Government the DP has been destroyed by us. Mr Chairman, the debate on this motion has been quite exhaustive and I wholeheartedly support it. Our children are in difficulties, especially now that Xhosa is one of the official languages . We do not know Xhosa; we only know a mixture of Xhosa and Zulu. Xhosa should be included in our programmes in the interests of our children who have this language difficulty. With those words I support the motion. MR L. S. BALENI : Mr Chairman and hon members, I intended to use the Baca language and I am sorry I am not going to do so. Because of the lack of Xhosa programmes on FM we are at a disadvantage in Umzimkulu. The electorate of Umzimkulu have requested us to introduce this motion into this House. They say they are tired of listening to Zulu. I am fortunate among the people of Umzimkulu because somehow or other I can follow the Xhosa language programmes and when I do listen to Xhosa I put my ear next to my radio as though I am operating a telephone because the voices are so soft that it is difficult for any one to hear. People are talking and in the Xhosa language there is nothing like "boba". When they speak of washing they say "geza " but in Xhosa when you wash your body you do not say "geza" because that refers to one who has lost his senses. People from Umzimkulu are sensitive about this and when you try to listen to Xhosa radio our children cannot follow anything. When you come out you find people talking and the language used by our youths is Zulu, notwithstanding the fact that we are under the Transkeian Government. I am not going to be lengthy, seeing that this motion is of great value. It is so important we value it as we value gold. Some people labour under the impression that Umzimkulu people are not following up what is taking place in the Transkei but this is not so. It is because they do not know what is going on. We request the Transkeian Government, which we respect very much, to install an FM tower in Umzimkulu district. I thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN : Hon members, there appears to be a lot of gossip going on in this House . I have been warning hon members to abide by the rules of this House and I will not therefore be responsible for any consequences when I take sterner action. I shall now call upon the mover of this motion to reply. MR H. PAMLA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I am very happy and I am also very grateful that 158 .
things which happen between the chief and any department, the chief is also a political head and has to publicize information , therefore it is only right that the chief should receive that information in good time so that he can make it known to the people . We now request that all circulars be sent direct to the chiefs and heads of tribal authorities. Certain laws are amended at times and because of the absence of circulars giving this information we are not aware of these amendments to existing laws. You stick to the old practice, whereas you are out of date. Now on appeal the courts find that we are out of date and the lawyers take advantage of our ignorance. To correct this matter circulars should be sent to the tribal authorities. I could speak at length on this question, Mr Chairman , and about the difficulties in which we find ourselves because we do not receive these circulars. However, I shall not delay the House. M/HEALTH : Mr Chairman and hon members, this motion seems not to call for much discussion. It is a very straightforward discussion and I move that we give the mover an opportunity to reply. Agreed to. CHIEF G. W. NKWENKWEZI : Mr Chairman and hon members, I am very glad this motion is receiving the support of the House and I am very pleased that the hon Minister appreciates this fact. It is precisely the Ministers who address these circulars only to the magistrates and not to the chiefs. (Laughter) If the hon Ministers realise how important this is, let me receive a circular tomorrow. I thank you, Mr Chairman. Question put and motion carried unanimously. The Assembly adjourned.
even the hon members of the DP have supported me in this motion. I am urging our Administration to negotiate with the Republican Government that this matter be expedited. The Republican Government is a very rich Government. If they can spend as much as 39% of their budget on Defence, that tower will cost next to nothing in comparison. They are spending a lot of money in preparing for a war no-one knows anything about. If this tower is provided we will get young boys who will be so good in Xhosa that they will follow the example of Mr Isaiah Mkize, who became a lecturer in Xhosa in Cape Town. I thank you, Mr Chairman, and I move accordingly. Question put and motion carried unanimously.
ISSUE OF DEPARTMENTAL CIRCULARS TO ALL TRIBAL AUTHORITIES CHIEF G. W. NKWENKWEZI: Mr Chairman and hon members, I move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government be requested to send a copy of every circular sent to the magistrate to each head of a tribal authority. " CHIEF H. Z. ZULU : I second the motion. this Chairman, NKWENKWEZI: Mr CHIEF motion is of great value and I hope it will receive the support of the whole House. Sometimes it occurs that circular minutes are directed to the magistrate and the magistrate's office only. Some of the magistrates fail to advise the chiefs and headmen of the contents of those circulars. At times the magistrates forget the contents of those very circulars. As a result of such forgetfulness, after certain communications have been addressed to the headman or chief it is found that they have not received them. Sometimes a magistrate is advised that a certain headman has been dismissed but you find that there has been an oversight in some of the correspondence. It is found at times that the chiefs are just regarded as stooges of the magistrates, because you find you have been accused of not doing your duty and yet something has been kept in the magistrate's office and has not been transmitted to you. For that reason I have introduced this motion so that in anything pertaining to a chief or headman they should also be advised . It will therefore become necessary that this should be put into effect, because you find in some districts the magistrates are not only magistrates but they are also chiefs or headmen of those particular districts. It happens sometimes, as in my district of Tsomo, that magistrates request that they should take part in meetings without consulting me as head of the tribe. I have been told that I do not perform my duties and afterwards reminders are received. The magistrate then tells me I have failed to do my duty because I have not responded. The magistrate will then require me to make a statement to indicate that in fact I did not receive any letter from the office. When I am so directed I feel I am liable to arrest and I then refuse to make such a statement. I ask this House to support this motion. I would further request that in the case of such circulars the Government should put it on stencil so that they can distribute as many as possible. I do not believe there are more than 400 chiefs in the 28 districts of the Transkei. To all tribal authority heads Government Gazette No 887 of 1969 should be sent so that those tribal heads should know how much they should be paid and how to conduct their courts. That is our request, Mr Chairman. CHIEF K. M. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to second this motion. When the Government passed the Bantu Authorities Act, No 180 of 1963, the chiefs were granted certain powers which gave them authority in certain matters. It empowered them to take upon themselves the administration of their areas and this included matters in every department. There is always a complaint that certain circulars do not reach the chiefs and headmen at all times. The chiefs and headmen are not aware of certain incidents until those incidents are out of date. Certain publications are issued and the chiefs are ignorant thereof. Some areas are far from the magistrates' offices. Letters are sent to the chiefs and headmen and those letters do not reach the chiefs in time. That is why the hon chief has seen fit to put this motion before the House. Seeing irregularities and other
AFTERNOON SESSION REDUCTION OF RENTAL FOR BLACK RAILWAYS STAFF CHIEF G. B. SIYABALALA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to reduce the rental paid by black railway staff for official housing to half of what they pay at present." CHIEF H. Z. ZULU: I second the motion, Mr Chairman. CHIEF SIYABALALA: Mr Chairman, this motion has been introduced because the question touches closely our people who work on the Railways. You find that from the Kei River to Butterworth there are cottages which are occupied by tenants and others which stand vacant and there is a reason why some of them remain empty. People do not occupy those houses because they cannot afford the rental paid. The alternative then would be to raise their wages. People need the accommodation there. I understand it is also difficult to obtain those houses because of difficulties raised by the Railways Department. I think the hon members for Nqamakwe and Butterworth will testify that these people desire these houses but these houses find the rentals are too high. They can sometimes they cannot get them. Even those who get these houses find the rentals are too high. They can hardly afford these rentals even though they are railway employees. The alternative accommodation is slum accommodation. I say, Mr Chairman, that those people should get those houses but not at the rentals demanded, because their wages are not in proportion to the rentals asked. You find in Butterworth and other places that there are so many of these places vacant and people cannot afford to occupy them because of the high rentals they have to pay. I am placing this matter in the hands of our Government so that they can negotiate with the Republican Government, and remember, Mr Chairman, it is the electorate who have requested me to put this before the House. I think there will be no difficulty with our Government negotiating with the other Government because it will be between Governments, and the Railway Department is a government department. If it were a question of some other department such as the Chamber of Commerce then there might be something to say against it, but, as it is , it is Government against Government. 159.
Even with those who occupy houses there I may mention that these houses were formerly occupied by white railway employees who paid nothing for those houses, but our people are made to pay. If there were any justice in the Railway Department they should treat their black employees just as they treated their white employees. I am appealing to this Government to negotiate with the Republican Government, because there should be no discrimination amongst employees. I am pleased the hon the Minister of the Interior is here because I think she will treat this as a matter of urgency. CHAIRMAN : Hon members, it would appear that the House has now invented a new principle that any member who is on the floor should not speak for more than five minutes. The procedure is that for any mover there is no time limit, and for every subsequent speaker 30 minutes not five minutes. (Laughter) I call upon the next speaker. CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA: Mr Chairman and hon members , I wish to support this motion wholeheartedly because it touches the black man and I am black . By way of diversion, Mr Chairman, I thank the Chairman for pointing out that in our discussions we should speak for a reasonable time, because we are here to represent the people. Some things which happen cause us great pain, particularly as we are on the eve of independence. As independence draws nearer and and nearer, so the hardships on Africans increase. Whote railway employees used to occupy these houses free, but people who earn little are charged such high rentals because this bloodsucking against us has been of long standing. As a Government should you not stand against this and put it right? The motion by the hon member is a good motion, pointing out to this Government that it is about time this matter was put right. I say further that they should not be charged half the rental, but should be charged no rent at all. The hon member is trying to soften the opinion of this House , feeling the House will say we have no money. The Railways Department is a very rich department which earns a great deal of money. This department can afford to give those houses free. I am happy to hear from the Chair that hon members are allowed to speak at length, although it is clear at times that there are such motions as will require very little elucidation. This is a straightforward motion and it is clear that something should be done for these people. Some of these houses were occupied by Europeans but our people are not allowed to occupy them free of charge. Some of these Africans occupy the same positions as the Whites, so why can they not occupy the same accommodation ? Is it because of colour? We have been against discrimination on the grounds of colour all along. I have said, Mr Chairman, that I will not speak at length because the motion is a straightforward one. MR C. DIKO: I have a question , Mr Chairman, can the hon member who is holding the floor tell us exactly how much the rental was for the Whites and how much OPPOSITION MEMBER : Ask the mover. Opposition member asked the mover. MR DIKO: I am talking to the hon member who is on the floor. Can you tell me how much the Africans who want these houses have to pay?
mover, there are many houses which lie along the railway line. Some of these houses are not occupied and now some have no doors or windows and they are dilapidated. There are so many of these houses from Ndabakazi past Butterworth to Idutywa. You find the houses are empty and railway employees do not occupy them . That is surprising , because when there were Whites employed there these houses were all occupied. We have asked the people why they do not occupy them since they are railway employees. Although the Transkei is on the eve of independence it seems the Whites do not like these premises being occupied by Blacks. At Butterworth the percentage of Whites has decreased because the policy is that an African should replace a white employee and you find the number of white employees decreases but the Africans are living in the location. You find that a railway house which should have been occupied by a black railway employee is now given to a white person who is not a railway employee. Because there is no accommodation for the man who is not employed by the Railways he is given that house because there is no other accommodation for him. The black employees who take the places of the Whites lose their confidence now in the Administration. An African occupies a position which was occupied by a White, but he cannot occupy the accommodation which was occupied by the White. A white man used to be charged at the rate of 60c per room and a Black now pays 70c up to R1 per room. That is not fair to the black man, Mr Chairman. At Ndabakazi there are African employees who occupy those premises but only two of them are occupied and ten remain vacant. There were certain premises which looked like sheds which were demolished and were then repaired for use as residential accommodation. The Whites have organized themselves into a Railways Staff Association and they send delegates to the conferences. There is an African delegate there but decisions are made without consulting him even if he is sent as a delegate. It sometimes happens that the same African delegate has been sent by his association to put this matter before the conference as to why this accommodation is not given to Blacks but no attention is paid to him. With our youth such questions develop an anti-White attitude and that might develop further as time goes on, because these things happen and definitely they will cause some unrest one day. With those words I support this motion. MR P. N. NKOSIYANE: Mr. Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support this motion. The motion is very important because my people have suffered and their blood has been sucked . They have to use unsuitable accommodation in shelters in which people suffer from cold. Because some people have no place to live they collect their families and stay with them in such shanties. These shanties leak a lot when it rains. They are never inspected as is done with houses occupied by the white people. If people are given accommodation the houses in which they are accommodated should have regular inspection. We have seen such houses even at Springvale. They are in a very dilapidated state. The people who use this accommodation have been given work which was performed by the white people and they are now ticket examiners. They do the same work as was done by the Whites and the Whites should now realise they are just as human as they are. When one considers under what conditions these people live one has to admit it is a sad situation. Just imagine when these people are required to pay a higher rent than was paid by white people. When considering this you have to come to the conclusion that a black person is one who was born under misfortune , for no-one can advance a reason why one should pay a lower rent and the other a higher rent for the same house. It has now become customary for a black person to be looked down upon and he is always placed in a difficult situation. A black man has to crawl on all fours and not walk on his feet, so that it is well known that a black man is oppressed. Today we are holding this floor in order to bring out the fact that it is no longer necessary for black people to be so oppressed. Today we have been given a platform from which we can address the world. Even now I am springing up to voice my opinion. (Laughter) I have the right to say whatever I want and to speak out openly.
CHIEF MABANDLA : I will touch on that presently. Even if I do not discuss the motion to that extent the mover will have to give those details. I am now discussing the principle involved in this motion. (Interjections) You know, hon member, I shall rely on the Chair. Mr Chairman, this motion by the hon chief should be accepted and we say there should be no discrimination on the grounds of colour. We have always said this. Those houses are occupied by people who belong to this land. We never went anywhere else, but remained in this land, and we know that the Republican Government gets the benefit of this land. We are getting no revenue from the transport activities because the Republican Government enjoys that revenue. If we cannot pass this motion the Europeans will keep on sucking our blood. I support this motion. CHIEF H. Z. ZULU: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support this motion which is very important, particularly to the people who are employed by this department. As mentioned by the 160.
CHIEF N. M. MATANZIMA : Mr Chairman and hon members, I wish to take part in this discussion. It is fitting that in the calculation of rental to be paid the rental should be in proportion to the wages paid. What obtains now in the Railways Department makes us discuss what the Republican Government in general is doing to us, even though we have no wish to do so. It is difficult when such things go on not to blame the Republican Government, because that Government is responsible for what is happening. It is Government policy that Africans be trained to replace Whites who are not of this area. It is strange that an African youngster is training to be a railway clerk and he actually takes the place of a white railway employee, but he cannot occupy the same premises. That is surprising. This black yougster will think he is entitled to Occupy the premises, but the rentals are so high he feels it is better not to do so. I agree with the hon chief from Butterworth, Chief Zulu, who said there are ten unoccupied houses at Butterworth formerly occupied by Whites. One is bound to ask why the Republican Government should adopt such an attitude. Can we say frankly that under these circumstances we are having a proper deal? We are bound to noise it abroad that this does not add to our comfort. People should know that such things occur against our liking. At Engcobo also such things obtain. Railway employees have to seek accommodation outside the village because they cannot afford to pay the rentals for those houses. The Government is aware of the wages these people receive and this is intentional. The Government and the Department of Railways in particular will not take into consideration the work done by the employees concerned. He is paid his wages and has to pay a portion back to the department by way of rent. We do not like such things. Railway employees who are clerks at Qamata are accommodated in shanties there. Zinc was ordered for them and instead of being accommodated properly they are accommodated like road workers in tents. There are houses there but the rents are so high that these youngsters feel they cannot afford the high rentals charged. Now this makes people feel it is no use behaving within a certain code because it does not pay. These people just develop the habit of climbing in through the windows, spending the night and climbing out of the windows again in the morning. All the rooms there seem to be occupied at some time or another. It then became compulsory that there should be police at Qamata to make sure the people do not jump in through the windows. The Government can well afford to lower the rents to the lowest, because instead of receiving even a low rent the Government will go and hire police to come and guard these places. I have been describing employees of certain grades, but when you consider railway employees of the lowest class we had better stop thinking. If a ticket examiner or clerk is accommodated in a tent, what about the ordinary railway worker? You cannot blame these employees who have to go and live in tents, because they are not responsible for that. No responsibleminded person will pay more than a certain percentage of his salary because he wants to be well accommodated and comfortable. We are saying this because we want it to be made clear to the Whites of South Africa that this is the voice of the aboriginal owners of this land. I will explain, Mr Chairman, that when this happened at Qamata I suggested and made it possible that these young men be accommodated at Nogate township there. That place was occupied by Whites some time ago where I arranged for these youngsters to be charged R2 a month instead of R16 a month, which is expected of them when accommodated by the Railways. Mr Chairman, this is not digression but one feels that in discussing such a motion one has to point out the cruel attitude of the Whites of the country. It is noised abroad that we are being trained to occupy big positions, but how far does that training take us if a man has to work and at the end of the month he pays all his wages in rent? We know that the Whites who occupied these places just had the benefit of things which did not belong to them, while we , the children of this land, have to be accommodated in lowly tents. While there is still time we appeal to our Government to negotiate with the Republican Government to put this state of affairs right. We feel that the Whites should put this right before independence ,
It is not because we are blind to what is happening. Today the Government has put us in such a position as to understand what is happening. These are the stages of a child: First he crawls, then he walks, then he grows and then he reaches the stage when he can be sent on messages. When the child has grown so much that he can be sent to deliver messages he will refuse to be sent to take a piece of meat somewhere and be refused the right to eat the meat. (Laughter) You can imagine what it is like to be just a messenger and yet receive no compensation for being a messenger. It is the Government which has opened these trades for our sons of becoming ticket examiners. Now it is our right to voice our opinion that our sons should enjoy the same rights and privileges as were enjoyed by the white employees. While I was at Johannesburg I saw the accommodation afforded the ticket examiners. They had substantial buildings with five rooms where they could live comfortably with their families. The black employees of the same grade are given shanties made of tin in which to live, and they leak when it rains. We have heard it said that the white people pay less than black employees for a house. I say this is an important motion because it seeks to make proper provision for railway employees. All the government departments should realise the fact that any employee of theirs is a human being and such human being should be given suitable accommodation as is provided for the white employees. We have seen this happening in other places where accommodation was previously occupied by white people and when it is given to a black employee he is expected to pay more. Should an employee have to pay rent the rent should not exceed the salary of such an employee, espacially when it is considered that such an employee has a family to maintain. It is my request in supporting this motion that the employee should pay a reasonable rent which will not exceed his ordinary wage. Today all commodities are very dear. If these people have to meet high rents how will they make ends meet? Today we hear of inflation. We did not know what this inflation was. Whoever introduced this inflation? Did this Government do so? (Laughter) But there has been no proportionate rise in the salaries of the people. Though there are price control officers they do not seem to do their duty, but just let everything go up. A railway employee should be given some concession as far as tickets are concerned. Even when our children go to the Reef they should not be required to pay the full fare, as they are children. Regard should be had to the fact that it is the child of a black person who has no money. As we are black here, even our Minister is not like a minister from the Rand. He is also placed in the same class as an ordinary black person. He is expected to pay a lot of money although he is black. He also has a family and all these prices should be lowered as far as the black ministers are concerned. The Department of Railways should be very considerate as far as children of railway employees are concerned. We have our own youth who are related but they are not black. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN : Hon member, that remark is very unparliamentary. It would appear that it is your custom now to enjoy yourself in that language. Will you withdraw that, please. MR NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman, I withdraw that remark. Everyone in the country will be pleased that this motion has come forward because it is a motion which seeks to help our people. CHAIRMAN: Hon member, it is a tendency for you to repeat yourself when you are addressing this House. It is not permissible for members to waste the time of the House. Please proceed. MR C. DIKO : Sit down, you have no more facts. MR NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman, I will not worry myself about people who have just come here. I am referring myself to this motion. There are foxes in this House. MR DIKO : You must withdraw that. CHAIRMAN: Hon members of the House, in spite of the warning given to this hon member for Mqanduli a minute ago, he again, against the ruling of the Chair, abuses the privilege of this House. I rule that he should withdraw that remark unreservedly. MR NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman, I withdraw the and I resume my seat. word I used namely, foxes
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as we leave this House they will rush to the railway quarters in order to canvass for votes. In the Western Province this will be the first question from the people, as to what has been done. The first thing you should tell them is that we said their rents should be lowered, because they are anxious to know what has been said on their behalf. Thank you, Mr Chairman . Qusetion put and motion carried unanimously.
because after independence the administration of this department will probably be different. We want to realise how sincere they are in what they give out to the world. The authorities should realise that some of these youngsters are up to the standard of being able to occupy a house of five rooms instead of having to share a room with five other people. Imagine the state of affairs when a man and his wife occupy each of the five rooms! What is the result of that, morally and otherwise ? This will happen because they might come to the idea that to be able to afford this rent they had better share the building . Considering our customs this renders the whole position impossible. We know that the aim of the white man is to destroy us by destroying our customs. The elimination of the customs and beliefs of a people gives the show away. It means they wish to destroy us. Charging rents out of proportion is a method of making those people sink to a state of slavery. I know the reply will be that we will have our own Department of Railways by October, and so we will have to act in our own way when the time comes. Let everybody know that we do not want to inherit the mistakes of the Republic of South Africa. This is our money which should be spent in maintaining these houses to accommodate our own people. We are now charged such high rentals in our own buildings. I cannot understand exactly why they should be charged rent at all. I have never heard of a son who takes the place of his father who has to pay a beast to take up that position. I take these houses as being the property of the people of this country. These houses are built on Transkeian soil and no money was paid for the sites on which the houses stand. If there was money paid for those sites they should have paid us when we gave them sites at Qamata. The bricks that go to the building of these places are made out of the soil of the Transkei . The timber used there is indigenous timber from our forests. Are we going to pay then for the iron part of these buildings, because that is foreign? The water used there is drawn from Transkeian rivers and springs. Why should rent be paid for these houses? I do not know exactly what these people want from us. We obey any instruction given to us. The time will come when the reaction will be the reaction of a mule which refuses to go any further. I am there as chief and no-one will say "No" if I say to these young men : Go and occupy premises and pay no rent, and if they come we will deal with them in their own language. We will be defending our rights. We will ignore the suggestion that there should be dialogue and that we should have a conference. There is a lot one can say in English and then once one talks and talks there are no results. We say our Government should negotiate with the Republican Government. Though these people believe in six months, I think that time is too long. The say that everything will be all right in six months, but this money is demanded of these youngsters even before. It is demanded of them today. If one asked Mr Vorster how far we have gone in this six months, I wonder what his reply would be. This matter should be attended to and righted before the end of six months Nothing will alter the decision of independence on 26 October 1976. If this is not put right at independence we shall put it right in our own way. We will use forks and knives, sticks, assegais and knobkkerries if they will stand against us. As we say nothing will stand against us. As we say nothing will stand against independence, we say also nothing will stand against our wishes. Mr Chairman , we appeal to the Government, to the Transkeian Government and to the hon the Chief Minister, to negotiate with the Republican Government to put this matter right before we think otherwise, because we could think otherwise or act otherwise. Nobody can direct one how to think or what to think. If the rents remain what they are we shall be bound to act otherwise. A law may be enacted preventing people from doing certain things, but you cannot legislate against what a man thinks . Mr Chairman, I say this matter must be put right. CHIEF G. B. SIYABALALA : Mr Chairman and hon members, I will not be lengthy in summing up, but I wish to thank all the hon members who took part in this discussion. I do not see why I should take up much time because most of the ground has been covered by the speakers. I thank them all and I know as soon
CONSTRUCTION OF BRIDGES DISTRICT
: BIZANA
CHIEF D. D. MLINDAZWE : Mr Chairman and hon members , I move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should consider the advisability of constructing bridges on the following rivers in the Bizana district: (a) Mathwebu River (b) Umbungwana River; and (c) Umzamba River." CHIEF G. L. SIGCAU: I second , Mr Chairman. CHIEF MLINDAZWE : Mr Chairman , it is becoming monotonous and tiresome that we seem to be repeating ourselves in this House. Be that as it may, Mr Chairman, let me remind hon members that we come from various areas and we have varied problems which concern us in our respective areas. We appeal to the Government to be sympathetic towards us when we express the same ideas, but arising from different areas. I wish to point out that these rivers are on the same road leading from Bizana to Mnyameni Mouth. These bridges will be fairly close to each other. There were bridges before which were built during the days of the UTTGC. Hon members will remember that I referred to these bridges after the policy speech in 1974 by the hon the Minister of Roads and Works. You will find this on page 198 of the 1974 Hansard . You will realise , Mr Chairman , that this matter was mentioned then and if it is mentioned again today it shows how serious the position is. This is no slur on the department concerned, but more an emphasis of the difficulties under which those people live in this respect. These bridges were washed away and are now no more. During the last four years the driver of any vehicle has to stop at each of these rivers, collect stones and pave a way to get across. The next vehicle owner will arrange the stones and pave a way to get across. The next vehicle owner will arrange the stones according to the height of his vehicle. The road to which I am refering is one of the busiest roads in the Bizana district. To expand on this motion I will say there are more than 15 business houses which have to be approached across these rivers. Passenger buses which ply those roads are overtaxed. I will not mention peak periods such as the Easter holidays , when our people have to hire buses from as far away as Durban and they have to cross these rivers. There are four administrative areas across these rivers. In my own area there were over 30 buses conveying passengers to my area and I have said there are four areas. I am not discussing other motor traffic, Mr Chairman. I have had complaints from business houses that the Railways are not prepared to convey their goods until the bridges at these places have been constructed. I am certain that the department concerned has also had that report. I am certain that a telegram has also been sent to the hon the Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland. If the Department of Railways is not prepared to use its buses to convey these goods the business houses are bound to use their own trucks, and the risk involved in crossing these fords is high. Is it to be expected, therefore, that these trucks should be in a roadworthy condition all the time? Is it to be expected that the motor owners should keep their vehicles in a roadworthy condition under these circumstances? We are now subject to being ticketed every day by traffic inspectors. Everyone knows that once a motorcar has been submerged the brakes will no longer work properly. Imagine a bus full of passengers crossing the river and when it gets to the other side the brakes will not work. We appeal to the Government that these bridges should be built and we also plead that they be given priority attention. We also appeal to the Government not to lower the confidence of the people in the Government itself. People approach us 162.
his department. In supporting this motion I wish to impress upon the hon Minister the importance of constructing such bridges. Some people suggest that I should not take my seat too soon, but immediately I have finished what I wish to say I shall resume my seat. (Laughter) My whole attention is being drawn to the question of those bridges in Bizana district. We will speak at length when the hon the Minister of Roads and Works delivers his policy speech. I accordingly support this motion. The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday, 23 April 1976. FRIDAY, 23 APRIL 1976
as their representatives in parliament and they expect results in the representations that we place before the Government. Sometimes a member of Parliament is not in a position to answer a voter in one of his requests and the voter will ask you what you are there for and what we are doing as we sit in this House. They accuse us of just being here to line our pockets . Those are the feelings of the people , because they come to us with their requests and we place those requests before the authorities without result. The people therefore adopt the idea that we are merely here to earn money. We sit here discussing and discussing and the people there are trying to avoid prosecution from time to time. I went home during the Easter weekend and I came to one of these places where the bridge should be. When I looked up there was a bus which could move no more and all the passengers were standing outside the bus. When I asked why the bus had stopped I was told the bus had lost its brakes because of being submerged when it crossed the river. Mr Chairman, I was afraid to meet the bus owner because I knew exactly how he felt about the danger to the lives of the people. I was not even brave enough to go to the man and tell him the matter was receiving consideration because I knew it was not being considered then. Instead of going to the people and saying I was sorry to find them in that difficulty I just had to go away. I could not even prented. I appeal to the Transkeian Government to treat this matter as one of urgency. MR N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support this motion, which is most important. It has been introduced to this House by a young handsome chief who resembles me (Laughter) and he gave most of the important facts. Since we opened this session we have discussed the construction of roads and bridges all over the Transkei and the question is one which affects all the people of the country. If there are no proper roads and bridges people cannot carry out their businesses. That is why it is necessary for me to give facts in support of this motion. We have discussed these roads and bridges .... CHAIRMAN: The hon member for Mount Ayliff has left his seat to go and make another parliament with the hon Chief D. D. P. of Ngqeleni. You are not attending to these motions but to your own interests only. I appeal to hon members to desist from that practice. MR JAFTA: The hon the Minister of Roads and Works is present as we are discussing this subject and has heard the arguments advanced . I hope he is making notes. It is quite possible that people may lay the blame on him but we should not forget the fact that he has not created these conditions. This year has been exceptional as far as the rainfall is concerned and even tarred roads have been damaged . That alone goes to prove that it was a sort of minor Day of Judgment. (Laughter) It is therefore necessary that the hon the Minister of Roads should take note of everything that is being said in this Chamber. As his department uses zonal units to perform these duties in all the districts, it wil. be necessary for him to note all these applications in connexion with these diverse roads and bridges so that he may issue instructions to the officials of his department to attend to these various roads and bridges. The hon member for Bizana has mentioned certain buses which became damaged owing to the bad condition of the road. All those people who own motor vehicles will realise that there have been difficulties in traversing the country. Many buses, lorries and other motor vehicles have been damaged as a result of erosion and flooding of roads, so much so that a number of owners have given their buses to the XDC. This is due to the bad state of the roads. MR C. DIKO : We are not talking about roads, we are talking about bridges. MR JAFTA: It is one and the same thing, man. Bridges and roads are related. (Laughter) If there are no roads you will never be able to cross a bridge . For that reason I must mention both roads and bridges. Both are used by motor vehicles. This is what I am supporting - that the roads and bridges referred to by the hon member for Bizana should receive consideration and be placed on the list of roads and bridges which require attention. This matter depends largerly on the hon the Minister of Roads and Works, together with
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon members, this morning the copies of the draft Constitution for an independent Transkei will be distributed amongst the members. These are contained in a special Gazette.. Mr Chairman , I wish to take this opportunity to impress it upon hon members of this House to go out to the people and explain the implications of an independent Constitution for the Transkei . When the motion was introduced in 1974 we went deeply into the implications of an independent State. The House was united on the principle , except that the Opposition said the matter should have been taken to the people by way of a referendum. This is very fortunate, Mr Chairman, for the Transkei to take this very important step with unanimity. There are 14 days given within which criticisms against or in favour of the Constitution should be levelled, and these should be sent to the Secretary for the Department of the Chief Minister. During the course of next week the recess committee will meet (and I will make an announcement to that effect) in order to complete this job and sign the document for presentation to the House on 3 May 1976. Mr Chairman , I have no doubt that all the members in this House will take this seriously, go back to their constituences and explain the Constitution. Whether they had doubts about it or not, it is now a fact that the Transkei will be an independent state on 26 October 1976. The Cabinet members have been doing this duty during the past year and also during this year, but I feel that it is the duty of the members, both elected and traditional, to go to the people and perform their duty. A committee has been appointed to go into the question of providing celebrations for the Transkeians to mark this important occasion. There are sub-committees in all the districts of the Transkei and also in the Republic, where we have Transkeian citizens. Now, I am informed by the Assistant Secretary for the Chief Minister's Department. Information Service, that the celebrations in the districts -- are the 28 districts of the Transkei — of the Transkei scheduled for 1 and 2 October 1976. This arrangement is made in order to enable the districts and the regions to prepare for the main celebration in Umtata. The Cabinet has nominated speakers amongst the members of parliament to address meetings on that main day, which I think will be 2 October, in all the districts, and I hope those members who have been given this honour will prepare proper addresses to deliver to the people. It is hoped that these addresses will be in the official language of the Transkei. In addition to that there are speakers who are scheduled to address meetings in the main centres of the Republic on 16 October 1976, and these centres include Namaqualand. (Laughter) I have no doubt that the speakers for these dates will also prepare themselves. It is hoped that this House will discuss this Constitution fully during the dates on which it is tabled , but the passing of the Constitution is scheduled for 26 October 1976. Now, there will be no discussion on the Constitutior on that date. It will merely be the passing of the law through the first reading, second reading, committee stage and the third reading. I hope this will take five minutes only. (Laughter) , Mr Chairman, that is the announcement which I intended to make this morning, which I regard as being historical. Thank you, Sir.
163.
deals with the financial year 1974/75 as well as the Report of Sessional Committee on Public Accounts 1976. Both these reports have been tabled in the House and, therefore, I do not deem it necessary to burden the House further with this matter. Mr Chairman, the excess expenditure over the provision of the Department's Vote was approximately 1,7 % and was due mainly to unforeseen general increases in salaries and wages as well as unavoidable flood damage repairs to the Xilinxa dam and Gcuwa weir in Butterworth district. Firstly the Departments when framing the estimates for the 1974/75 financial year, were requested to provide for a 121 % and 10% adjustment in respect of salaries and wages respectively whereas the actual increases authorised after the relevant appropriation act had been passed ranged from 17 to 30 %. Although it was anticipated that the additional expenditure was to be met from savings effected under other subheads of the various Votes, this expectation was in the final analysis not realised concerning the Vote of the Department of Agriculture and Forestry with the result that an addition expenditure of R213 000 was incurred. Secondly, a severe and an unexpected flood in February, 1974 caused considerable damage to the Xilinxa dam and Gcuwa weir which were about 75-80% complete, destined to supply urgently needed water to the Butterworth town and industrial growth point. In addition to the act of God, the Contractor went into liquidation immediately after the incident and the Department had to undertake immediate repairs to the structures to prevent further damage and to ensure water supplies to Butterworth being available in good time. Consequently an additional expenditure of R700 000 was incurred of which R138 000 was part of the unauthorised amount. Another contributory factor in respect of excess expenditure was the determination of certain domestic water supply contracts due to default of contractors and the completion thereof by other parties or departmentally at added cost to the Government. Also cost escalation on civil engineering works were much higher than anticipated and gave rise to additional expenditure. It may be mentioned that excess expenditure was also incurred on other subheads and, together with the the foregoing subheads, the excess involved totalled savings R449 458,55. However, amounting to R203 116,16 were effected under certain subheads of the same Vote and these were utilised, by way of virement, to meet the excess leaving a balance of R246 342,39 as unauthorised expenditure. Mr Chairman, to estimate accurately is a difficult, if not an impossible task especially under emergent and unforeseen circumstances. The Department did all in its power to operate within the limits of available funds but in the aforementioned instances the excess expenditure could not, without detriment to its rendition of essential services to the community, be avoided. Mr Chairman and Members, I am satisfied that the excess expenditure was justified in the circumstances and that effect should be given to the Sessional Committee's recommendation that the sum of R246 342,39 be specifically appropriated. I therefore , now move that the Bill be read a second time. Thank you Mr Chairman.
NOTICES OF MOTION
49.
Mr. E. V. Ndamase gave notice to move:-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should consider the desirability of amending rules pertaining to police ranks to provide for the limiting of the ranks of sergeant to one instead of three as is the position at the present." 50.
Mr. M. P. Ludidi gave notice to move :—
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of establishing in the near future , a Land Bank as part of a programme for improving land productivity."
51.
Mr. M. P. Ludidi gave notice to move:-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of reporting on the destiny of every motion passed by this House and that such a report or reports should be tabled in this House." 52.
Chief D. D. P. Ndamase gave notice to move :-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of:-
(a) creating a stock theft police mobile unit stationed in Umtata ; (b) purchasing a helicopter to be used by this mobile where necessary ; (c) making legislation forcing stock owners to earmark and/or brand their stock." 53.
Chief D. D. P. Ndamase gave notice to move:-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of approaching the Republic of South Africa with a view to obtaining an undertaking from the latter at its own expense in order to accelerate development in an Independent Transkei to : (a) construct rail links between:-
(i) Qamata and Umtata via Cofimvaba and Engcobo (ii) Umtata and Port Shepstone via Libode , Port St. Johns, Lusikisiki and Bizana; (b) erect and provide electric power lines connecting:-
(i) Umtata, Mount Frere and Kokstad ; (ii) Umtata, Libode, Port St. Johns, Lusikisiki , Bizana and Port Shepstone; (iii) Umtata, Engcobo and Cofimvaba." 54.
Mr. B. P. Vapi gave notice to move:-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Department of Roads and Works should consider the advisability of constructing a bridge over the Umgazana river on the road leading to isolated Mawosheni areas in the district of Port St. Johns."
M/AGRICULTURE: I second, Mr Chairman. MR H. H. ZIBI : Mr Chairman and hon members , to start off with I do not know if the hon the Minister of Finance is aware that pages 3 and 4 are not contained in some of the copies. With regard to the bill I shall only be in a position to discuss it more when we get to the committee stage , where I shall require some motivation, but I must say that I regret that at this stage of the Transkeian Government's development when we are facing independence we have got to be confronted with such a state of affairs. I shall be in a position to ask questions when we get to the committee stage because I feel, Mr Chairman , that even if there had been money perhaps insidiously misused within the various departments of the Government, that could also be passed as unauthorized expenditure. M/FINANCE: What do you mean by " insidiously misused"? MR ZIBI: I refer, Mr Minister, to the fact that
TRANSKEIAN UNAUTHORISED EXPENDITURE (1974-75) BILL SECOND READING. M/FINANCE : Mr Chairman, Honourable Paramount Chiefs and Honourable Members, I rise to move the Second reading of the Transkeian Unauthorised Expenditure (1974-'75) Bill, 1976. Mr Chairman, in this Bill the Legislative Assembly is requested to approve the appropriation of a further amount of R246 342,39 to meet certain expenditure during the 1974/75 financial year which has been declared unauthorised. Particulars of the circumstances in which the expenditure was incurred , are given in the Controller and Auditor-General's Annual Report which 164.
College of Agriculture. Subhead J, R138 579,70 - the provision for agricultural engineering services was exceeded in respect of item 2 Development and Maintenance of Water Sources, Dams and Boreholes owing to unforeseen expenditure arising from reconstruction and completion of Xilinxa Dam and Gcuwa Weir for Butterworth, which were severely damaged by floods in February 1974 at their 75 % to 80% stages of erection; the termination of various contracts for domestic water supply due to default by contractors resulting in higher costs on completion of the work departmentally or by other parties; and cost escalation in civil engineering works. Subhead L, R129 655,30 - this provides for forest management, provision for which has been exceeded as a result of an increase of 20% in the wages of labourers over the 10% originally estimated for. Subhead M , R49 802,08 Wages of labourers engaged in forest utilization services were actually increased by 20% instead of the 10% estimated for, and also due to the price increase in respect of creosote this subhead was exceeded. As I said in my second reading speech, savings to the amount of R203 116,16 were effected under the other subheads of the same Vote and these were utilized to meet the excess expenditure of R449 458,55 by means of virement, thereby leaving a balance of R246 342,39 in respect of which an appropriation is hereby sought. Mr Chairman, I have given a lucid clear and unambiguous account of the workings of my department in respect of this Vote and I have no doubt that all reasonable members understand the situation in which the Department of Agriculture found itself. As Minister of Finance I am satisfied that the expenditure was justified. Mr Chairman, I move that clause 1 of the bill be accepted by this House. M/INTERIOR: I second, Mr Chairman. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I have to make comment in so far as this bill in its committee stage is concerned, but I am sorry that I have not got the bill in front of me and I wonder how many of the members have the bill in front of them.
embezzlement of funds in any department is never authorized. Otherwise I have nothing against the bill, Mr Chairman, in that we are condoning this expenditure. MR C. DIKO: Sit down. You must withdraw those remarks. MR ZIBI: That is all I have to say at this stage, Mr Chairman. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon members, although I came late into the House while this bill was being dealt with I wish to make certain remarks. The presentation of such a bill should not be encouraged because we are still awaiting the budget. We are worried by the electorate who want to know how we have dealt with the Estimates of Expenditure, but we can only tell them we are still dealing with motions. What is of great importance is that in connection with the introduction of such bills the hon the Minister of Finance should rather consult with all the parties. For instance, I am a member of the DP and there is also the NDP and such members should be consulted. The hon Minister knows that at Fort Hare University, if one had the initials "NDP" it was taken as "Not for Degree Purposes". M/FINANCE : Come to the bill. MR MGUDLWA : I have not much to say in connection with the reading of this bill but I will say quite a lot during the committee stage. I would advise the hon Minister to restrain himself from bringing up such matters. I thank you, Mr Chairman. The bill was read a second time. M/FINANCE: Mr Chairman, this being a very short bill I move that we waive all the rules relative to the financial bills in order to deal with this measure straight away. That is, that I carry on with the committee stage of the bill and also with the third reading. M/EDUCATION: I second. Agreed to. UNAUTHORISED EXPENDITURE (1974/75) BILL: COMMITTEE STAGE M/FINANCE : Mr Chairman, I move that the House convert itself into committee of supply. M/AGRICULTURE: I second. Agreed to.
M/FINANCE : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, I am sorry the hon member must have left his papers at home, because this document was distributed in the House when the bill was read a first time, as usual. I can lend him my copy if he is in trouble. MR MGUDLWA: Thank you, Mr Chief Minister. In so far as the explanation given by the hon the Chief Minister is concerned M/FINANCE: Minister of Finance. MR MGUDLWA: Minister of Finance, but you are both. I feel, in fact that it is the feeling of my side here M/EDUCATION : Which side? MR MGUDLWA: I am the Democratic Party this side. We feel that this unauthorised expenditure has been met to serve the cause of the Transkeian citizens whom we represent in this House. For example, under once there is an inSubhead A, that R73 000-odd crease in salaries and in fact people feel that they have gained something, why can't they be satisfied with that? If the hon Minister has to overstep his mark , that is, the authority of this House, can this House blame the hon Minister for having overstepped his mark when it is for the benefit of the people? We know that the hon the Minister of Finance (he is also the the Minister of other Ministers, in Chief Minister fact) is a senior servant of the people, but there is no servant who is higher than the master. (Laughter) The master is the people, so that if now the servant pleases the master D/CHAIRMAN: Will the hon members stick to the business in front of us. MR MGUDLWA: Now, Subhead E that is, R25 000 in respect of compensation - who of those people who have been compensated will not be satisfied in view of the explanation by the hon Minister? In fact, I can read from his speech whatever he has said which resulted in the overspending of these amounts that it was in fact for the welfare of the people. Only in so far as Subhead J is concerned that is, Agricultural Engineering Services and the construction of Xilinxa Dam and Gcuwa Weir - - I would have required more explanation in so far as that is concerned. With
House in Committee On Clause 1 M/FINANCE : Mr Chairman, I wish to draw the attention of hon members to the Hansard for the year 1975. An amount of R14 025 000 was originally appropriated in regard to the Vote for the Department of Agriculture and Forestry for the financial year ended 31 March 1975 and was later recouped by an additional amount of R275 000 that is, R240 000 plus R35 000 to in respect of Subheads A and J respectively R14 300 000. Now, this Vote was exceeded by an amount of R246 343,39 . The provisions for the following subheads were exceeded in the total amount of R449 458,55:- Subhead A R73 648,61 . This subhead provides for salaries, wages and allowances and the overexpenditure was mainly due to the underestimation for services. The increases in salaries and wages rose by 171% to 30% as against the 10% to 121% provided. (I notice you have not even got your Hansard in front of you, hon members. This is where you get all these subheads.) This additional expenditure - and I am referring you to the original Vote which is contained in your Hansard under Subhead E- R25 759,76, Miscellaneous Expenses in respect of item 6, Compensation in terms of Workmen's Compensation Act, was underestimated due to the fact that it is impossible to determine accurately the expenditure to be incurred hereanent. Subhead F, R31,249,22 — this subhead provides for plant, machinery and equipment. Due to rising costs for maintenance services, fuel and lubricants, and to accounts or invoices for fuel and lubricants of the preceding financial year having been received late and paid during the period in question, the subhead was overspent. Subhead G, R763,88 this subhead provides for extension and training and was underestimated due to the increase in the prices of foodstuffs for the breeding establishment at Tsolo 165 .
those few remarks, Mr Chairman, I resume my seat. MR H. H. ZIBI: Mr Chairman and hon members, I am worried about the globular figures given us by the hon the Minister of Finance, but after his explanation I am quite satisfied, except that I must allay my anxitey on one point, and that is whether in the relative period there were no cases in the Department of Agriculture of misappropriation and, if any, were they accordingly dealt with. Otherwise I am in agreement with this. M/FINANCE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I have nothing to hide as Minister of Finance. If there were any misappropriations these should have been brought to the House. These are usually provided for in the Report of the Controller and Auditor-General and I would refer the hon member to this report in order that he reads it thoroughly, because the finances of the Government are thoroughly looked after and a report is usually given by the Controller and AuditorGeneral. The expenditure which is the subjcet of this bill was necessary for the carrying out of the duties of the Department of Agriculture. Clause I put agreed to. Clause 2 put and agreed to. Schedule passed to stand part of the bill. Long title and whole bill put and agreed to.
him about places where damage had occurred. I told him I would take him to the area so that he could see the places which needed attention. The hon Minister will now realise that we are faced with a difficulty. I think he wants us to go and carry him from his office to this spot which we are talking about. (Laughter) We anticipated that he would know his duties . Many people have approached us complaining about these roads and also about the bridges. What are we expected to do more than we are now doing? The people who use these roads and drive their buses pay taxes and when they pay their taxes they expect bridges to be constructed where necessary. The hon Minister should get his people to see to it that these bridges are built. We have today brought in this motion for consideration by this Assembly. We should not be regarded as people who have merely come to make a request for the construction of these bridges, but the bridges should in fact be constructed. We want these bridges to be constructed so that they are used. The state of the damaged causeways must be exceedingly bad, because the mover even went as far to explain that anybody using these bridges has first of all to collect stones and place them in the stream. Under those causeways there were cement pipes to allow the water to flow through, but all those pipes were washed away by floods and anyone who wants to cross the drift using a motor vehicle has to go and collect those pieces of cement and place them in the river bed so that the vehicle is not covered by water, but when heavy vehicles cross the stream those pieces of cement sink into the river bed and sometimes the vehicles are submerged in the water. The hon member mentioned a bus which had to stop because the brakes would not work after crossing the river. We would that this motion should be treated urgently. The people trading in that area should be assisted so that they are in a position to use their vehicles. This hon Minister should not labour under a wrong impression that we are making a request for new bridges. We have been told here that there was a dam damaged by heavy rains. Why should we not also be assisted in a similar way when help was given in order to repair the damaged dam? Why must it be incumbent upon us to go and look for the person who is employed for such services? Are we being punished because our bridges have been sweept away? Is this going to be the procedure that any damage should be reported by other persons and that the proper people should not come and inspect? It was not on account of the recent floods that these bridges have been washed away. At first, just where the cement joined the soil, dongas formed. At times we used to see one solitary labourer throwing soil in those dongas, and he would take only two wheelbarrow loads a day. At times you would find him putting clods of soil as well as cowdung into these dongas. We beg this House to sympathize with us because this is a worry and it causes us anxiety, particularly when we meet the owners of these heavy vehicles. Some of the storekeepers or traders have told us that at times they cannot transport their goods from where they buy them to their stores because they could not cross these rivers. It also creates anxiety when one sees a bus unable to cross, and a bus which has passengers among whom there are sick people. We would that this House should sympathize with us so that steps are taken to put this right. I do not know whether it was necessary for us to come to the Legislative Assembly with this request, but the reason why we have come is because this matter has been outstanding now for many years. We have therefore come to bring this matter to light. I believe this explanation has been well understood, particularly by the hon Minister. You can imagine when people have fertilizer in their trucks and they are told they cannot get their fertilizer because of the condition of these bridges. I wish the hon Minister would take this as an mergency situation. I thank you, Mr Chairman. CHIEF J. NTOLA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support the motion that the Government should construct these three bridges for us. They are very important and their absence is a serious handicap to important officers for example, school inspectors visiting schools. In that way government officials cannot carry on their duties as expected. The doctors also have difficulty, and doctors have to
House Resumed D/CHAIRMAN: Mr Chairman, I wish to report that this House in committee of supply passed the Transkeian Unauthorized Expenditure (1974/75) Bill without amnedment. UNAUTHORIZED EXPENDITURE (1974/75) BILL: THIRD READING M/FINANCE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I move that the bill be now read a third time. M/EDUCATION: I second. Agreed to. The bill was read a third time. CONSTRUCTION OF BRIDGES DISTRICT
: BIZANA
The debate was resumed. MR W. M. MADIKIZELA : Mr Chairman and hon members, I wish to make a few remarks in connection with this motion. There are three bridges mentioned and the mover stated that these bridges were on an old road and that these bridges were washed away long ago, so that no-one can see where the bridges were situated. The first one is about ten miles away from Bizana and the second is a mile away from the first one on the same route. The third bridge is 11 miles from the second one. They were causeways, but the causeways have been washed away. The mover stated that he mentioned these bridges during 1974 and therefore the request is not for new bridges. The request aims at the reconstruction of the old bridges. A great deal of traffic makes use of these bridges. The first road which crosses these rivers starts at Holy Cross and it is a distance of about 40 miles from Holy Cross. The second road starts from Kanyayo and is a distance of about 50 miles. The third road starts on the coast at Xolobeni and is also 50 miles. Another road starts at Makwantini and that is about 40 miles. I am mentioning these roads so as to indicate the great number of motor vehicles which cross these bridges. On the other side of this river there is a hospital, two high schools , over ten junior secondary schools and many other schools. There are 25 shops and all the people who use these diverse institutions cross this river and use these three bridges. Because of the volume of traffic these roads become eroded. It is not the first time this matter has been brought up, as the mover indicated. That will make it clear beyond all doubt that these bridges have been in this unsatisfactory condition for a long time. The person who is responsible for these roads lives in Lusikisiki district and we do not know whether he has not yet seen that there are no longer any bridges over this river. On a previous occasion I went to the person responsible for these roads and complained about the road. I told 166 .
use these roads over which the bridges should be constructed. Because they have to visit the clinics. People die because they cannot be transported owing to the absence of these bridges. Take the case of an epidemic when these places are impassable and see what the position is then. Sometimes nurses have to move about vaccinating or inoculating people against diseases such as polio. This is an important road and people pay taxes to keep these roads in order. The local bus owners have to pay taxes and the Government should note how imortant this road is. The department should treat this as a matter of urgency. We are aware that the department is expected to build other bridges or is busy otherwise, but I do not know whether we have to ring bells or make a lot of noise in order to urge the Government to do this. (Laughter) Pondoland is a high rainfall a land of flooded rivers - and the absence area of these bridges is a serious handicap and is a source of casualties in children being drowned on their way to school. People attend beer drinks and on their way home have to cross these rivers, and sometimes they are under the influence of liquor. People have to go to the magistrates ' offices and when they return they cannot cross the river. This is a serious matter, the absence of bridges in Bizana district. I will say nothing of people who have to transport goods. The bad condition of the road and the absence of these bridges is a great handicap to them. The people who have buses feel there is negligence somewhere . We have repeatedly requested that these bridges be constructed. The speaker who said the motion should not have come before this House but should have been dealt with departmentally was right. The practice is that whatever is already under operation should be treated departmentally. We have come here to speak to the Government directly, however. We appeal to the hon Minister concerned to take steps in this regard. The department concerned should specially note the question of bridges so that there is free communication from one area to another. It has not been necessary for us to say all that has been said in this House about the bridges. The Government should have known this. In fact, the House up to now has been discussing roads and bridges to such an extent that one can hardly add anything more in this connection. Whoever has been listening will wonder why there is this repetition about bridges. Probably a listener will say there are other matters which should be introduced or he may have important matters he wishes to introduce for discussion here. We are not worried about that because everybody has a representative in the House through whom he may introduce anything which he wishes discussed in this House. With those words I support the motion. The debate was adjourned.
The House has heard that these bridges were last attended to during the Bunga days. At that time traffic was not so heavy and there were hardly any buses. As a matter of fact, the traders did not have to carry heavy loads of mealies to their shops at the time. The people were then getting mealies and selling them to the shops. Imagine then, hon members, when a load of 50 bags on a heavy lorry has to cross those cement pipes which are placed there. That lorry is going to cross these cement drains in dry weather, and when it is wet and the water is flowing over those cement pipes the heavy lorry crushes those pipes. That is why hon members keep saying that those bridges have been washed away. Now the black traders want to know from the members of the Assembly whether these roads were prepared only by the Bunga and for the benefit of the white traders only; and the white traders say that since we have taken over from the Republican Government they have difficulty in running their cars. They are ruining their cars on these roads . I do not know so much about these complaints during the time when this road inspector who stays at Lusikisiki was stationed at Bizana. His name is Mr Boucher. I did not notice these complaints then because the roads were better attended to then. Now these white traders want to know when they see bridges like this whether it is because white supervision has ceased. Not knowing who is now in charge I go to telephone the Department of Roads and want to know what is happening about the roads. I reiterate the query of the Whites and ask whether it is because there is no longer white supervision. The foreman tells me there is still a white man in charge of them. It is Mr van der Byl, who stays at Lusikisiki , and when they receive our complaints they refer them to him, but he ignores them. He gives his own instructions about roads about which there have been no complaints. I can say that during this last visit of the hon the Minister of the Interior during March, we found that road together with its bridges almost impassable. It was most horrible. Despite the fact that while the hon Minister was overseas I went to the magistrate's office and I got the Ministers itinerary and took it to the magistrate's office at Bizana and asked them to do something about these roads. I pleaded with them to get the roads fixed up before the hon Minister undertook her itinerary. The Minister arrived in the district of Bizana from overseas and commenced her itinerary. It was only on the second day that a grader arrived from Lusikisiki to do those roads just that road. As a matter of fact, I was not aware that the grader from Lusikisiki came more on the strength of the complaint directed to the Department of Roads and Works by the hon Chief Mlindazwe, the mover of this motion, and then the department gave instructions to Mr van der Byl to attend to the road. Now, I hope the hon Minister will not blame us for bringing such matters as the repair of the roads to the House of Assembly. Actually, we are not speaking to the department. We are weeping; we are crying. On one of these bridges a few years ago, Mr Chairman, a woman was drowned there. She had crossed the river to visit a relative and while she was there rain fell heavily. When it had stopped she said she was going home and although they pleaded with her to remain and sleep there she said she would be able to cross the river because there was a bridge. She was accompanied to the river by another woman and she got into the water and before she had reached the bridge she was swept away by the water. The poor woman cried out to the people that she was being swept away. For a week the relatives searched the river down to the sea for the body, but the body could not be found. These people were given a tip that they should go to an amateur tracer. They did so and this man said the body was not in the sea, but along the river bank. They went back and searched again but they could not find the body and they went back to the tracer. D/CHAIRMAN : Will the hon member please develop facts that illustrate the need for the repair of the bridges and not embark upon stories that took place long ago. MR DYARVANE : All right, Mr Chairman, but I can see the House is interested . (Laughter) What I am worried about is that even the bridges they have there are too low, so that the woman could not see not how
AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the Construction of Bridges in Bizana District was resumed. MR E. DYARVANE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I wish to support this motion very emphatically. As a matter of fact, I thought the two hon Ministers - the Minister of Roads and Works and the Minister of the Interior would be present while I am speaking. In the first instance, I wanted to thank the hon the Minister of Roads for the attention he gave to the people's complaints in Bizana about these roads, including just this one, but I wanted to surprise him that even though he assured me that the road had been attended to it transpired that only grading had been done on the road, and this was done during the winter of last year when all the waters of these streams were low. Now, his workers who were doing the road appear not to have attended to these bridges. Hon members will recall that the graders have a higher clearance than cars. Now when a ministerial car comes along you find that it almost touches the rough stones with its differential and one hon Minister was trying to say they should turn back if a Landrover had not turned up, driven by one of the Information Officers. I am wondering then why the Minister's workers will not attend to the whole road, complete with its bridges, when they are doing the roads. I must say that this road has several traders at least three of whom are still white in the Bizana district along this road. 167.
from the hon Minister about him. The reply I received was that as instructed this superintendent has to visit the roads twice a month. According to his report handed in at the department's office, he stated that he had visited these roads three times. I accept that information received from the hon Minister, because the Minister is just given these reports by his subordinates. If the superintendent had given me such a report I would have told him straight that that report was not acceptable to me. I say that if that is the report he gave to the hon Minister I do not accept it. I have a reason for saying this. He can accept it, if he likes, as a challenge. It depends on how he receives it. If he is instructed to inspect the roads twice a month and he states that he does it three times a month, how is it he cannot notice these defects on the roads? When last did he make any report to his department about the bridges in his area? If he visits these roads as instructed , why are there such heaps of gravel which remain there for months unused? There are heaps of gravel stretching for about three miles. These heaps are so piled on the road that there comes a time when the road becomes so narrow that they have to put signs to warn motorists, causing those roads to become one-way traffic lanes. Why, if there is a report from Bizana about the state of the roads, does he and his staff get worried about that report? After I had submitted this report I heard that he and his staff and also the staff at Bizana and Lusikisiki were worried. Why does he get worried? What does he expect us to do? In saying this I wish to stress that the hon Minister and senior staff members should not accept the reports of their field officers. They should take the trouble to go and see if things are as reported. They must expect that we shall also report, because we are in the area. To my mind those people are working to keep their jobs. In making their reports they give a report that will be favourable to them. They never make a report which might result in their dismissal. The department should realise that these people are working from month to month, so the service they give must be satisfactory. If I say anything true about that, I will say that that superintendent is keen only on the road to the market where he transports his bananas. People are seriously handicapped. Children cannot get to school because the river is in flood; traders are handicapped because they cannot cross these rivers. Finally, Mr Chairman, I have applied for the construction of three bridges but I want to say that the bridge over the Umzamba should be given priority attention. I have to congratulate the department on building the bridge at Dutyini. I will not say more, thank you, Mr Chairman. Question put and motion carried unanimously. D/CHAIRMAN : Before we move to Motion 43, hon member, I just want to remind some of the members who are busy violating regulation 33(g). Members are not allowed while in this House to sit here and read newspapers, letters, books and so on.
deep the river was over the bridge. What we want is that safe bridges should be made along those streams. They are very dangerous streams. You must know that these roads were made without being planned or surveyed. They were just sledge tracks and then roads were made along those sledge tracks and the causeways were just made on the routes where people used to go on foot. They are really dangerous crossings. Now, Mr Chairman, after there has been heavy rain you find children standing on the banks of the river wanting to go to school. They are waiting for the bus to come and then they jump over and get to the bus and go to school. Even in the afternoon they have to wait for the bus. Small stock has been swept away in crossing those streams. The little boy drives the stock across the river and the sheep are swept away and the boy just cries. Then the people come to ask what he is doing allowing the stock to cross. As a matter of fact, it is not so much the sheep but the child might fall in and be swept away, and there you are. That is why we have to bring these facts to the department, so that something must be done. The hon the Minister of Roads and Works knows the complaint that I sent to him about doctors complaining that they can only go as far as those bridges and the patient is waiting on the other side, but they cannot get across. They come to me and I write to the department and eventually a reply comes that the roads are now being attended to, but that is already after the rains and during the dry season. That is why we feel, Mr Chairman, that this matter should be given priority. This is a busy road and our name is becoming so blemished because the roads are like this now that we are under the Transkeian Government and no longer under the Bunga. D/CHAIRMAN: Hon members, I think you will agree with me that this motion has been sufficiently covered. Any further discussion on this motion would be a mere repetition of facts which have already been put forward. If the House agrees with me I will call upon the mover to reply. Agreed to. CHIEF D. D. MLINDAZWE : Mr Chairman and hon members, in winding up the discussion on this motion I wish to thank those hon members who have so fully supported this motion. They showed that they were talking from their hearts. They did not only support the motion but they supported me personally, showing that they appreciated what we are trying to do. I feel rather sore that while I am putting the finishing touches to this motion the hon the Minister of Roads is absent from the House, and also the Secretary. Be that as it may, I feel that my words will soon reach the hon Minister because I can see someone in the gallery who might report to him. Although this motion has been so fully discussed , I wish to make a few remarks on certain points which I feel to be pertinent. Even if the department would take these as low bridges or any other type of bridge, I want to stress the point that in the construction of these bridges the work should be thoroughly supervised. I have a reason for saying this and that is that a small bridge was constructed over the Umtentwana stream in 1974. Wonderfully enough, the bridge has been so worn that the concrete underneath is appearing. One wonders whether the people responsible for this construction can mix sand and cement in the correct proportions or whether they just do things haphazardly without caring what happens afterwards. These people are paid but it seems they are just paid to do anything. A bridge is constructed at a certain spot and shortly afterwards that bridge is no more. That is exactly what I wish to stress that in the construction of these bridges the people responsible for the construction should be properly supervised. I remember at the beginning of this year some school inspectors could not cross the river because of the absence of proper bridges . Because they were so late in the formation of school committees at the beginning of this year on account of the heavy rains, these inspectors forced themselves to go there in spite of the heavy rain. On their return they found that where there was once a bridge there was only water. Imagine when one goes downhill and meets this flooded river. They could not go back and they could not go forward and they had to sleep on the river bank. As regards this senior superintendent at Lusikisiki , I made inquiries
PROVISION OF BOARDING ACCOMMODATION FOR BOYS AT TRAINING SCHOOLS MR W. L. SIPUKA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I gave notice to move and I thus do s0 according to the order paper:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should extend the existing boarding facilities at the present training schools so as to accommodate boys as trainees." Motions of a similar type become redundant, Mr Chairman, and people complain about this, but this cannot be helped because those who bring these motions have been sent by their people to do so . For instance, bridges have been a headache in the House. Perhaps schools might also be a headache. In any case, my motion is not intended to jeopardize the position of the two motions pertaining to schools which have been passed. I do wish those schools to be established, and just as soon as the department can afford it. My request is that we should go back to the old style ---- that of admitting in our training schools boys and girls together. As a matter of fact, this practice was not carried out by this Government, but by the European people who had power over the schools. They drove away boys on the excuse that they were troublesome 168 .
that whoever you will only come to one conclusion did so made a mistake. We must believe that these people were supporting their policy of apartheid and they did not in fact know what they were doing. There was no reason whatsoever to separate these people, who are all Africans. I appeal to all the hon members of the House to have this motion put through. Consider what has been said by the mover of the motion in regard to the number of schools, when you have to build a school specially.for girls and another one for boys. To cut the matter short, a school to accommodate boys and girls should be built and the only difference would be that these boys and girls should have separate accommodation for sleeping purposes in order to avoid any possible trouble that might arise. If living accommodation is separate then there would be peace. GOVT MEMBERS: Separate development. MR NKOSIYANE : You can call it separate development, but that would lead to peaceful sleep. (Laughter) If such an arrangement is made it would stop the youths from fighting. There should be someone to see that these youths do not fight. Even in the female hostels there should be a matron to see that the girls do not leave their sleeping accommodation, and similarly in the hostels occupied by boys. They should have rules to indicate when to go to bed and the matron would supervise and see whether all the girls are sleeping. One who absented herself would have broken the regulations of the school and the regulations would have been read to all the students. This is a very good motion and students should be accommodated together in the schools. When there are separate schools for boys and girls a lot of expense is incurred. The Government should consider this motion favourably. The hon member has piloted a very good motion and I commend him for it. All the members should see that they bring good motions to this House because all the motions have been about roads, and all these roads are coming. I could not get to my destination yesterday when I visited Chief Mgcawezulu, on account of the bad state of the road. I do not know how he travels on that road. (Laughter) The whole road is so bad .... D/CHAIRMAN: Hon member, the subject under discussion is the extension of boarding facilities for boys. It has nothing to do with roads. Please stick to the subject. MR NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman , why I have digressed is because when these boys and girls go to school they use the roads. (Laughter) This is the very road that leads to the secondary school and that is why I made this mistake. Yesterday when I saw the road I was confounded to think how these children use this road and how they ever get to that school . (Laughter) The road is extremely eroded. The bridge was broken a long time ago. (Laughter) D/CHAIRMAN : I think the hon member is persisting in disobeying a ruling by the Chair. We want your reasons why you support the extension of boarding facilities to boys in high schools. The motion has nothing to do with the secondary schools. MR NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman, I support this motion very strongly because I had some difficulty in sending my child to school at Mvenyana. There I was told only girls were accepted and no boys, and that was a great worry to me. It is for that reason that I now support this motion. It is a very bad system to have separate schools for males and females. We are used to boys and girls visiting together. This system was used only when we came to education. When we attended the "mtshotsho" dances we mixed with the girls. Even in the marriage ceremonies we mixed with the girls. (Laughter) This system of separation was brought about by people who came from the west. This is what we are fighting against. We pay people who stay together, because right from Creation this was done and we all went in company. In all these schools children should be accepted, whether male or female. We appeal to the Chairman to let the hon members of the House know it is our desire that boys and girls should be trained in one school. We know for a fact that there is a game which is known as hide-and-seek (Laughter) and that game is played by boys and girls together, even if they do this because they work together. People should be allowed to stay
in the institutions. For instance , the old schools amongst the six training schools are Clarkebury, Shawbury and I should say Butterworth too. Why I say Butterworth is one of the old schools is that that school at Butterworth is a transfer to the department from Blythswood. All that is new are the buildings, but it caters for boys and girls and that is just what we want. All that we need there is to build more housing facilities. Clarkebury, where most men and women were trained and where most of the elderly members in the House may have had their training, consisted of boys and girls at the time, and there was no fear of this undesirable conduct which is, of course , making the people shake their shoulders. The school turned out good male teachers and good female teachers, but today it is a girls' institution . Now, the motion requests that we should go back without any trouble in Clarkebury, because the buildings are there which used to accommodate boys. We have there an enrolment of women of about 600 or more, and you cannot say there is no trouble because the girls are there alone. They dodge the teachers and leave the school to go to Umtata and they do what they want. But the other three are directly under your Government. Butterworth, Arthur Tsengiwe in Xalanga and Maluti . These three do take boys, so things go on there quite smoothly. The boys behave and the girls do the same. There is no fear. Now I ask the Government to ask the department to go back to the old style of admitting both men and women in the same school, rather than the trouble, as it were, of building many training schools — one here, another there and all over - because it would appear that it is the cry of almost every region that there should be a training school. There should be a fear that in the long run these schools will be redundant and at the same time we are aiming high with education. We want all schools to give the same standard of training as Cicira. Boys and girls must be trained together to go through Form 5 so as to become principals of the junior secondary schools. It is already the policy of the department to take the womenfolk as principals of schools, so why can't they be trained to have higher certificates, rather than the ordinary training which they at least receive now? I appeal to the Government to see to this motion. This is something which should be practical and not earn fear in the House. We think that more teachers are wanted, and teachers of qualification, too , although the report that some teachers were redundant in some schools was most disappointing. It is something rather funny, because such teachers ought to be sent to schools where there is a shortage of teachers. With these words, Mr Chairman and hon members, I wish to take my seat. MR E. M. DEKEDA : I second the motion. MR D. B. MXUTU: Mr Chairman and hon members, it is a known fact that there is a great shortage of teachers, especially male teachers.. It is therefore important that we have more male teachers than female , not that I underestimate the intelligence of women, but because a teacher is a leader of tomorrow. He is a leading figure in society, apart from being a teacher, and therefore if these training schools would also accommodate men to become teachers this would increase the number of male teachers. You will find in some towns there are schools which are being abandoned by the white people, and in such cases we could accommodate more training schools for men. In that way we shall have more teachers. I do not know why this system was ever changed. As the last speaker has said, men and women should be trained together. We know that some male teachers leave teaching to take up more paying jobs, but this should not deter the Government from training more male teachers so that we should have a better output than we have at present. I therefore support this motion by the hon member for Idutywa whole-heartedly. Some men are not able to get through their matric, and they become despondent as a result. We could encourage some men to go in for teacher training so that they should be able to have some teaching post thereafter. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR P. N. NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support the motion. It is a very important motion and if you try to find out the reasons for separating females from males in schools 169 .
like to extend in the existing schools boarding facilities for boys. If I am right, and here I am subject to correction, I know of three schools in the Transkei which cater for girls only in what we call the PTC these schools being Shawbury, Clarkebury and Sigcau. I want to go back to the Bantu Education Act of 1973. I have not read this Act closely, but I am sure this is the system which was envisaged in that Act. We know that in the olden days boys and girls used to be trained in schools like Lovedale and Healdtown. I remember in those days it was only St John's College which catered for boys only. Now, I believe when the Bantu Education Act was put to parliament the idea was to train African girls to teach our children as far as Std 2 because in those days it was thought that the African was not supposed to get any education which was higher than Std 2. All the boys , when they had passed Std 2 , were supposed to go to the mines or become farm labourers. That was the idea of this question of girls being trained alone, and not boys. I want to drive away the idea that the boys cannot stay together with the girls. All these three schools i.e. Butterworth Training School, Cicira and Arthur Tsengiwe provide training for boys and girls together. I have been fortunate to visit one of them and I saw that the boys go to school together with the girls and even dine with the girls. Because of that these boys have been able to learn table manners. They have learnt how to dress properly; they have learnt to talk to members of the opposite sex, because if you drive the boys away from the girls they become animals. I do not know what used to happen in other parts of the Transkei, but I know what used to happen in the olden days down our way where boys used to go to "mtshotsho" dances with the girls at night. The behaviour was excellent there because the boys used to look after the girls. Now, when boys look after the girls there is usually no trouble. Here I want to recall the wife of a missionary who told me that her girls were never allowed to speak to the boys. They used to sleep under the same roof with the "mama" and the "tata", but something happened. Of the three girls, two fell ill. (Laughter) MEMBERS: What happened? M/AGRICULTURE : Be specific. MR DEKEDA: All right, the hon the Minister of Agriculture says I must be specific. Of the three girls, two became pregnant and the father wanted to know who had put them in this family way. The girls replied: "No, tata, we sleep here with you. We think it is you." (Laughter) The old man locked the door so the girls used to go out through the window to meet the boys. Now, I want to repeat that when boys look after the girls there is usually no trouble. I think we have adopted a wrong attitude where we want our daughters not to mix with the boys. Even amongst the white people you find that when a girl comes to age the mother must know with whom she is in love. Now, one hon member behind me says we do not want that, but this was the system of the white man from the West, and that is what the system was amongst our people. I am born of red people. My mother knew with whom my three sisters were in love. Well, I heard the replies of "no, no", but as long as the mother of the girl does not know who the girl is in love with well, she is still in love. I shall stop here because we are pleading with our Government to extend the facilities for boys also to be trained in our training schools. In two or three years' time we shall be extending our curriculum and the boys and girls who take PTC will be required to take matric. This brings us to the point that we must have some boys who will keep on in the profession, because some of these girls run away to nursing and more than half of them get married. The half of the half who have married will not be allowed by their husbands to teach, so we cannot be held back by saying that our boys and girls may not be schooled together. As long as they keep in one school, dine in the same diningroom and have different dormitories, we shall have a better class of boy. If one looks across the room here at some of the teachers who were trained in co-educational establishments you will find they are cultured up to this day. The hon member for Willowvale says all the men schooled where there
together and they should not be kept apart. When I was accompanying my chief, Chief Bambilanga, to a school we found the children were receiving training together but the roads to that school were so bad that the car nearly capsized . (Laughter) If the hon the Minister of Roads had been here I would have been pleased. and M/AGRICULTURE : Mr Chairman hon members, in moving an adjournment I wish to point out that most of the hon Ministers are either away or are indisposed. Their meals could not be prepared because there is no electricity. I therefore move that the House adjourns. The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 26 April 1976.
MONDAY, 26 APRIL 1976 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. PROVISION OF BOARDING ACCOMMODATION FOR BOYS AT TRAINING SCHOOLS MR J. M. SIGWELA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I fully support this motion. This is a motion which should have been brought into this House a long time ago, before the introduction of the new structure. We have been placed in difficulties because of the delay in bringing forward this motion. The request being made by the mover is of great importance. I remember the introduction of a motion which urgently required a training school for both boys and girls and this is an extension of that motion in that it asks for the introduction of co-educational facilities at all training schools. These facilities should be extended to schools already in existence as well as to those which will be constructed in future. It should aim at giving these studies training similar to that given at Cicira and other such institutions, where students are prepared to meet the requirements of today. We do not wish to follow the old system which is responsible for the difficulties experienced at the present moment. On account of the new structure the present teachers are not up to the required standard. If standards are raised we can avoid the same mistakes. If this motion is put into operation then we shall be able to produce teachers who will be in a position to follow the procedure adopted in the new structure. As it is today, we find difficulty in getting teachers capable of teaching Stds 5 and 6 because they have not been taught in accordance with the new structure and therefore their standards fall short. This motion seeks to make matters easier by the addition of accommodation for boys. In schools for secondary education teacher training accommodation should also be provided. As I speak now I know of certain schools with plenty of accommodation which was intended to take classes from Forms 1 to 5. Those classrooms are largely empty now. We heard the reply given by the hon Minister that there are 73 redundant, therefore we feel this matter of training schools should be started straight away. I say this because there are children who are on the waiting list and who are anxious to take this course . We request the department to take immediate action . Mr Chairman, we need not speak at length on this because the question is very clear. What we seek to get at is that the present training schools which are already in operation should follow this new system in order to avoid any difficulties in regard to our education. There is a time in fact it is coming soon — when all children should be taught in accordance with the new structure. All teachers should therefore be conversant with the new method of teaching. I can imagine a teacher with a PH qualification being asked to teach the sub-standards where mathematics is taught now, and this teacher knows nothing about mathematics. We would that this motion should be put into effect from the beginning of next year. Thank you , Mr Chairman. MR M. E. DEKEDA: Mr Chairman and hon members, we are dealing with a motion where we should be specific in order to be correct. I am sure I am correct when I say the mover of the motion would
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were boys and girls together never molest anyone. MR J. M. DUMALISILE : They drink instead. MR DEKEDA: They drink for pleasure; they do not live to drink. I put this remark before you because it is a part of culture to be able to know when to drink and how to drink; how to dress and all these things. Two years after I left Lovedale, when I was with the hon member for Tabankulu, I started drinking because I was not married then. Then I fell in love (Laughter) but one day the lady told me I was melling of liquor and I must not go near her. That s the last day I ever tasted liquor. Hon members, shall we request our Government to extend these boarding facilities to boys as well as girls in the training schools? CHAIRMAN : There appears to be no other speaker on this motion, so I shall request the mover to reply. MR W. L. SIPUKA : Mr Chairman and hon members, surely all points have been touched upon in regard to the motion, so I need not give any more expatiation. The fear that many people entertain has been cleared by the last speaker. He just explained exactly what I would say in connection with sex where boys and girls are trained together. Observe two ranks of boys and girls, each in their different files. You see reciprocal smiles, shall we say, and what is that smile for? It is nothing but admiration of each other. This smile is an indication that these people are fit to be what they are in both ranks and from that you get respect for each other. And what is the result of that respect but etiquette. Those on the first side are regarded as ladies and no longer girls, and the boys are so handsome that they are worthy of being gentlemen. That is to say, what we observe from girls who are trained alone you will not find from the girls who are trained with boys. Those who are trained with boys are free from what I would call feminine idiosyncracies, so that when they come to the field together they are able to approach each other without fear in regard to the work they are doing. People must therefore have no fear of mixed schools. I am talking from experience. I think that is enough, Mr Chairman, and I thank those who canvassed the motion . Question put and motion carried unanimously.
FREE INTRODUCTION OF STOCK INTO TRANSKEI CHIEF S. S. MAJEKE : Mr Chairman and hon members , I move the following motion which I reckon to be a very important one, whose consequences would have meant big sums for the citizens of the Transkei :-"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of impressing upon all officers whose duty it is to issue permits for the introduction of stock into the Transkei to issue such permits freely to all administrative areas without exception, particularly in view of the abundant rains that we have had, and the loss of stock suffered by reason of the current stock diseases." MR M. J. SIGWELA: I second the motion. CHIEF MAJEKE : Mr Chairman, the Transkei is a country suitable for pastoral farming . We are approaching independence, Mr Chairman, and we must not sit still. We must prepare now. The rains have been excessive in as much as that crops such as maize, beans and pumpkins have failed in the Transkei this year. There is sure to be starvation amongst our people, but the rains have made this country very beautiful, Mr Chairman. The grass is now abundant and as you travel through the Transkei you find stretches of green pastures almost with no cattle grazing. The price of cattle now is very high and when you send stock to sales and butcheries the money realised would avert the serious starvation I have already mentioned. Now, coming to these officers whose duty it is to issue permits, this motion is requesting that they should be made to issue these freely to the people of the Transkei. They must not choose. They must issue them to all administrative areas without exception, Mr Chairman. I have here a certificate which has to be signed by a chief, headman or policeman, whoever is authorized to issue a permit, and that is where our trouble comes in -- with this paper. The heading is "Stock Theft Act 1959 (Act No. 57 of 1959) ". All chiefs and headmen are
supplied with this document and if anyone has stock bought or sold elsewhere then he goes to the chief or headman who fills in the particulars on this certificate. The headman or chief signs his name and puts his date stamp there. The trouble is that when someone arrives at the office he finds some (I will not say of them, but some) unscrupulous officers who will just refuse a person on petty grounds. For instance , there are columns here saying "Breed , sex, number, colour, earmarks" and so on. All those have been fixed except perhaps the breed, and the headman or chief has signed that those cattle are wanted in his location. This man will say that as long as that portion is not filled in you had better go back to your headman. Sometimes he says the location is overstocked, and all those futile reasons are a handicap to our people. That is the reason why we bring this motion, because it would be nonsense for an officer this year to say the location is overstocked when the grass is as tall as I am. These officers are retarding the progress of the Transkei and I am sure the carrying capacity of the land is greater than the number of cattle we have. The chiefs and headmen know perfectly well that the cattle in their areas are less than the grazing pastures, but the man who refuses is the man who stays in the office. These cattle die and others are sent for lobola; others are slaughtered for marriages and many other purposes in connection with our customs. I hope the department will take sterner measures against unscrupulous officers and I am pleased the hon the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry is present. I know he does not like this treatment meted out to Transkeian citizens. I do not think it is all of them - it may be only a few, but those few are doing a lot of harm to our people. Millions of rands are being lost by this business of permits. As I told you, the price of cattle is very high and an ox easily fetches more than R200. Our cattle graze in the camps during the summer and that grass in the winter is ready for our cattle. Whose grass is it? It belongs to the chiefs and their subjects. This grass does not belong to that officer who will make the people suffer. I can give you even an example. There are three locations under one chief. Camp A has not much grass but B and C have plenty of grass, and these people live together. They belong to one tribe and they make their customs together, so you cannot deprive A and say it is overstocked when these cattle can graze in the other camps where there is too much grass. There are people in the Transkei who enjoy free movement of stock and I do not want to be persuaded to think that these officers encourage thieving. If thieves have fat oxen I say they own them, they keep them, they rear them, and they keep this grass, and those officers who refuse people to buy stock in accordance with the law have got fat animals. Those people who want to buy stock legally are often refused permits. I would that these steps be taken immediately so that this grass can be eaten up by the cattle to aviod those drunkards who burn the grass in July. This permit business goes as far as when you sell stock at sales. I have been at a sale where cattle have been sold and the owners of stock will drive their stock to the spot where the sale is to take place. What is required of a man who is selling his stock there is the filling in of this document, and another permit from the dipping foreman. Sometimes these documents are finished and the headman has no more and then he goes along to that spot with the people who have not had these certificates filled in, and usually these documents are there with the officers. Those men will refuse to give them even to the headman to help the man sell his stock. I have witnessed that myself, and you can imagine the man who is driving five cattle has already counted the money he will get and then he is disappointed because of this document. I saw a young man who was coming from Shawbury. The officer was at Shawbury but he was present at the sale this day and the man was driving seven cattle for sale. When he asked the officer to make out the permit for him the officer told him he should have come to his office at Shawbury. I therefore do not understand why this document for stock theft should hinder our people from selling their stock. The chief of that particular location was there and he said the cattle belonged to this young man and asked the officer to make out a permit, but he refused . 171 .
MR C. DIKO : Who is this man? CHIEF MAJEKE : I don't know his name unfortunately, but this happens frequently. This man therefore lost a lot of money that day. There were seven head of cattle and the buyers were giving a lot of money that day. They were paying over R200 per head, and if you multiply that by seven it is .R1 400. It is a serious thing because it seems the owner of the stock is now the officer whom the taxpayers pay. pay. MR DIKO : We will discipline him now. It will take ten minutes. (Laughter) CHIEF MAJEKE : I want to raise another point, Mr Chairman. You are aware that when you buy stock you will take a chance when cattle are cheap and you have the cash. Take a man who is working in Bloemfontein and the farmer sells a beast to a man who is working there. These are our young men who are working there and he gives the cash to that farmer. This man sends to the chief or headman to fill in this form. The chief does that and recommends that these cattle should be introduced here to his location. When the officer refused , all that money is gone. That is a real hardship. Lastly, Mr Chairman, I would like to add that the presence of agricultural co-operatives in the Transkei has enabled the citizens of the Transkei to buy feeding stuff for cattle so that the stock does not depend entirely on grass. I think this question of overstocking should be trown away by the people of the Transkei. There is no overstocking in the Transkei. As a matter of fact, chiefs and headmen know perfectly well that there is enough grass in their locations, so no-one should stop them if they have filled in these forms. That is my request in this motion , Mr Chairman, and I hope I have explained thoroughly to hon members. MR J. M. DUMALISILE : Mr Chairman and hon members, being on this side a side well known by we do not oppose the Government for its intelligence this motion. Today I feel quite proud of myself because I am a leader of this party. (Laughter) When one talks of overstocking we are at a loss , because we have not reached that stage of being under the rehabilitation scheme. We shall be very pleased if the hon Minister and his officials under him will explain to us exactly how they gauge the capacity of the pasturage that is not under rehabilitation . Out of 39 administrative areas, only five in our area are under rehabilitation. I can understand that in those rehabilitated areas there may be overstocking and overgrazing, but what puzzles me is how you can talk of over-tocking in the unrehabilitated areas.
into the area? How are these young men going to get lobola when they are refused permission to buy cattle? You see what happens the practice is that you do not have to answer a young man who comes to ask for your daughter, but you have to follow your daughter. You can see what an embarrassing thing it is for you to be running after a young man or his father, because these two have agreed. We wholeheartedly support this motion because right through the Transkei people have suffered great stock losses. I take it that even those in rehabilitated areas have suffered a lot and this does not need saying a lot about it. It is just a matter of whole-hearted support. What I can commend to the governing party is that I understand they have a night school, because some of the members whom we never expected to speak English here are freely and fluently speaking English . (Laughter) I do not know whether you have no caucus meetings any more, or whether you just study. I am referring to the hon Mr Diko . (Laughter) Mr Chairman and hon members, as I have said, I support the motion and it must be considered as Priority No. 1. CHIEF D. D. P. NDAMASE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I rise because I see none of the other members taking an opportunity to discuss this. When the last speaker mentioned that stock was the bank of the African he struck the right note. Now that cattle fetch such high prices, stock is a very sound investment. Today one banks R100 and it would be a miracle if that amount earned more than R5 interest. You buy a beast for R100 and at the end of the year it has calved. After three months you will be fortunate if you pay less than R40 for that calf, if you wish to buy. The hon the Minister of Roads says yes - if you are lucky enough. A speculator must have an optimistic outlook and it is too bad if things turn out otherwise. It is very painful when people are refused permits when they apply for them. One goes to the stock inspector's office to make application, and the stock inspector just looks at the man's face and decides he is getting no permit. He says he is busy and is not going to waste time writing out permits. The man just stands there, not knowing what to do because he is so ignorant. The stock inspector looks at him and says: "What have you got? I am busy." The man says he is prepared to do something and asks what he can do. The stock inspector carries on with his work and then says: "Well, fetch a half-jack from the shop." Such behaviour is disgraceful and the people wonder what will happen when the white man is no longer here. How much will corruption increase? Sometimes we are just punished because someone did not bring a spleen until it was rotten and so all the people in that particular area suffer, instead of prosecuting the person who did not comply. Why should so many suffer because of the wrong done by one person? It is just those officials who refuse to grant these permits , and the senior members of the Department of Agriculture . They say such-and-such an area is overstocked , whereas sometimes they have not taken the trouble to discuss the matter with the people of the area to decide whether the area is being overstocked. They have not even discussed the matter with the chief or headman of the area. If the people know that the matter has been discussed and if they were told at the last meeting that the area is overstocked they will not take the trouble to go to the office for permits. Let us remember that in the Transkei we all depend on agriculture and on stock basically. If you deal unfairly with the African in regard to stock or agriculture then you will pay for it. Some of our people work outside the Transkei in areas where farmers keep pedigree stock, which is the kind we require today. How can we expect any progress in the Transkei if these people are refused the opportunity to buy good breeds of cattle? What is going to happen? White farmers have good milk breeds and we have scrub cattle here which produce very little milk. In order to fill a gallon tin one has to milk about five cows ― and then we regard those as good milkers. From a good milker one should get at least two gallons. So many people today prefer to have one good beast instead of boasting in the customary way that they are worth so many cattle, and because of this they should be allowed to acquire good stock. In my area the young men as they become educated no longer wish to buy cattle. Things have changed since
MR H. PAMLA: What stops you from being rehabilitated? MR DUMALISILE : If you want freedom in the Transkei, I also want freedom of stock movement in the Transkei. (Laughter) We have been getting this reply from the stock inspectors, that there is overstocking , but our question is : How is it assessed and calculated in an area that is not rehabilitated? That is a point to consider, Mr Chairman. Coming to the support of the motion, we have our young men, we have our old men, and they are eager to buy stock everywhere all over the Republic, but when they come to apply for the introduction of stock into their areas the permit is refused on grounds of overstocking. I have also witnessed that the stock speculators are not permitted to introduce more than five head of stock into an area. What is remarkable and surprising and shocking is that we get different replies. We hear from the hon Minister that they have opened every area to stock introduction, but then in the office you get the boss. As far as I am concerned, in the Willowvale district I went to plead with the department that there should be no talk of overstocking in that district. The hon member who moved the motion has mentioned quite categorically that to talk of stock limitation and overstocking is just to play with words, because as it is this redwater disease is taking all the little stock we had. It is pathetic with our people because, as we usually say, that is their bank. More than that, I believe there are people who are looking forward to a feast that they do not have to chew, hence we usually say we are giving them some beasts. How are we going to do that when we are not allowed to introduce stock 172.
me to lend him oxen to pull out his car. As we are approaching independence we would like to feel free in our lands, free in our homes and we shall be free when our lands are full of mealies and our kraals full of cattle. We want to get to independence so that what should be done is done. It is surprising when you listen to these dipping foremen telling us in our own areas that the area is full and we cannot introduce any more cattle. There are many young men who want to buy cattle and pay lobolas for their wives. Now our daughters are just quickly buying groceries because the young man comes and just pays money and takes your daughter. You have no chance of refusing, because the young man explains that he tried to buy cattle but he could not get a permit to introduce them. You get the money from this young man and someone tells you three head of stock are being sold nearby, so you go there to buy them and then you are told you cannot buy them because the area is overstocked. You are told if you want those cattle you must sell some of the cattle you have. They say that is a government instruction, whereas I do not see what the Government is doing at my kraal because I am responsible for everything at my kraal. We plead with the authorities that the people be free to buy their stock where they can obtain it. CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA : Mr Chairman and hon members, I fully support the motion . In fact, if this motion is refused it means that what the black man regards as his bank will just be destroyed. .Whilst you are not allowed to introduce stock in the form of cattle it is another way of destroying what the black man regards as a bank. If we have to observe our custom we have to slaughter a beast. Even if you have to entertain your own son-in-law or a Minister you have to slaughter a beast. If you do not do so it means you have not accepted that person. It is true that cattle should be allowed to be introduced freely all over, particularly with regard to people who are resident locally, but you will find if people buy stock in the Free State or elsewhere they buy at cheaper rates. Because these permits are not issued to applicants you find people introducing stock illegally. It is necessary, therefore, that cattle should have free movement. The department has failed to produce a preventative cure for stock diseases and the stock-rate has been raised so that they should introduce a more effective dip to kill the ticks , but the cattle are dying now. It is imperative that stock should be allowed in and we should not listen to what is being said by these officers. It happens that decisions are made in this House but in the offices the officials deal with these matters in their own way. Although these officers seem to know a lot about stock diseases in the administrative areas, you will find them saying there is so much stock in the area, but they know less than the headman or chief in those areas. It is sheer waste of time to have a chief or headman to sign these documents for the introduction of stock when the officers refuse such permits. It is stated that these documents are intended to stop thieving but I am not sure that they are effective. When we accepted rehabilitation it was stated that people would be allowed a certain number of cattle and it is now being stated that people are no longer confined to a certain number of stock. Isn't this permit just another method of controlling the introduction of stock? Mr Chairman, much has been said in connection with this motion and I merely stood up to support it. We hope the department will take active measures in this connection. The debate was adjourned.
the days when everyone wanted to possess cattle. I say that if the area has not been rehabilitated it would not make much difference , because young people are not interested in stock. I think it is the same with the white people also. Their sons drift to the urban areas where there are modern ways of life , and these ways are very attractive to our young people. If one took a careful census it would be found that the number of cattle is decreasing even without taking into account losses through stock disease. It will not be many years that you will see these pastures so populated with cattle. Let these veterinary officers and agricultural officials not treat us in the manner they do. I don't blame all of them, but some of them have no experience of stock. Some of them come from areas where they have never had an opportunity to inspan an ox. It is the custom among our people that one who has oxen will assist the one who has none by ploughing his lands for him. We are often regarded as a poor racial group because we have no money, and some people even look upon us as something sub-human. I am at a loss as to how to express it in words, although I feel it. A man today has his hut full of mealies , but it was the generosity of a cattle owner who made it possible for this man to grow the mealies. The attitude adopted by some of these officers shows they have no idea how much we value our cattle because they come from homes where there were no cattle. I am sorry the hon the Minister of Agriculture is not in the House. We would appeal to him to issue a circular right away, because we might discuss a question here and that is the end of the matter. Nothing more is heard of that question. I am not casting a slur on anyone, but we have not come here just to talk and talk. If a child approaches his father and asks for money he will not just tell that child to keep quiet but he will say: My child, I have no money now, but on Friday I will have some. We would be happy to discuss these matters in the presence of the hon the Minister of Agriculture. We are a responsible number of members here who discuss these matters , but that is the end of it. I think I am digressing now, but let permits be issued allowing us to buy cattle anywhere. Let us be allowed to buy pedigree sheep and goats where we can obtain them. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR Z. W. LUFEFENI : Mr Chairman and hon members, this question has been discussed at length and it has been supported. I do not think I shall be long in speaking to this motion. The mover explained thoroughly in moving the motion. I am rather disturbed that the hon Minister of the department concerned is not in the House . He has run away from the debate. In certain offices when they refuse to issue these permits they say they cannot do so because that is an instruction, but some of these officers just refuse for personal reasons. They have certain ways of showing they are not going to issue these permits on personal grounds. These officers are present at the cattle sales and they have the permits with them. The dipping foremen are also there. If you have not approached them at their offices and you find them at the stock sale they say they haven't come to issue permits. They are on duty but they forget they are on duty. They are not off duty when they are at the stock sale pens. They are there to issue permits to those people who have not obtained permits at the office. The chiefs and headmen are there and could be called to testify whether the people who apply are entitled to buy. You find these officers there are very rude and unapproachable. There have been many stock losses due to disease in the Transkei, and I think even the craps have been reduced because we have no cattle with which to plough. Even those who use tractors charge exorbitant fees, knowing we have no alternative because we have no cattle. I do not mean everyone should have many cattle. We know the usual practice of Africans where one has two oxen and another man has two and they combine in order to plough. A kraal can hardly be called a kraal when there are no cattle, and one cannot even inspan his own few oxen to fetch water or to plough his lands. That is why we urge the department to allow us to buy cattle where cattle can be obtained, because we want to have cattle. A man will not be listened to in discussion if he has no cattle. He has no background. Even if he has many cars and he gets stuck in a swampy area he will have to approach
AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the Free Introduction of Stock into the Transkei was resumed . CHAIRMAN : Hon members, I wonder if there are any more members who wish to speak on this noncontentious subject? MR K. M. GUZANA: We would like to hear the hon Minister on this motion. MR P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I also support this motion. It is a very commendable motion and when I saw it I felt I should make a few remarks. We usually have complaints in connection with this Department of Agriculture. When
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taken part in the deliberations have done so most efficiently. I must thank the hon the Minister of Agriculture for being present during the time this particular motion was discussed and I am sure he has heard about the grievances of the people from all over the country. I am sure, too, he will take the necessary steps to effect this motion. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN: Hon members, perhaps the House should adjourn so as to give a better opportunity to that sub-parliament which is going on in the corner. Alternatively, perhaps I should order them to march out. Hon members, since the resumption of parliament this morning the Chief Whip of the TNIP has been marching up and down this House. If these things have anything to do with the House there is a caucus where this can be done. MR H. D. MLONYENI: On a point of order, Mr Chairman CHAIRMAN : Order, please. I shall now put the question. Motion put and carried unanimously. CHAIRMAN: Hon members, before the mover of Motion No. 45 gets up I would like to tell this House that the hon the Minister of Agriculture has indicated that he would like this motion suspended till tomorrow. I would like to know from the mover if he is prepared to have the motion suspended. MR P. N. NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman, I am prepared to allow this motion to be suspended till tomorrow. M/AGRICULTURE: Mr Chairman, I am very thankful that the mover has agreed to my request. The House will note that the motion concerns the provisions of the Transkei Authorities Act, No. 4 of 1965. CHAIRMAN: Hon members, I feel the hon the Minister of Agriculture should not expatiate since this motion has been suspended.
the regulations limiting free movement of stock were introduced the people felt much aggrieved. They always feel aggrieved when they are told they cannot introduce stock into a district, particularly cattle and sheep. Many people suffer great losses when they are forced to buy stock illegally. Some of the stock which has been bought has been railed to its destination, but because there have been no permits the stock is returned to its place of origin. People wish to buy horses and if they do so they cannot keep the horses when they arrive because of the refusal of a permit. Even if you want to buy mules they cannot be introduced. If you want to buy sheep from the neighbouring people, even then you meet with difficulties. Should your daughter get married to someone and you intend to receive lobola in the form of sheep or other stock, in order to have such stock registered you have to go to the nearest town to see the magistrate in order to obtain the necessary permit. At the magistrate's office you are told to go back to your headman or chief to obtain some other document. The chief gives you the required document and you return to the office. On reaching the office you are told you must go and pay your taxes first. When you have paid your taxes you then go to the agricultural officer who in turn tells you to go and see the dipping foreman. You then get to the dipping foreman who asks you whether you have seen the magistrate and the chief and some other officer. When you have replied to all those questions he begins to issue you with another document. In the meantime the person for whom these arrangements are being made is late in returning to his work at the Reef. This man's leave has expired and he finds himself in difficulties. As these animals move all over the country, some are found in Pondoland and you wonder how this stock moves right round the country and yet when you apply for this document it occasions you so much trouble. We are surprised that the Government cannot prevent this illegal movement of stock. We therefore come to a decision that we should bring about such a motion so that at length there will be only one requirement and that is the production of one satisfactory document for the introduction of stock. We wish that the Government should see to it that there should be only one such officer responsible for the issue of such documents controlling the introduction of stock. As we are expected to go a roundabout way of seeing these different officers we must first have to talk quite a lot before we obtain such documents. Some of these officers will tell you that you must go up and down. I am surprised what this man means when he says you must go up and down. (Laughter) Now when this man tells you so often that you should go up and down you begin to try to sort out matters and to find out exactly what this officer wants. However, you then decide the first thing to do is to go and consult the headman or chief of the administrative area in order to find out whether he knows what that officer wants. When you get to the chief or headman he wants to know whether you have not been issued with these documents. You tell the chief you were told to go back and consult him. He then directs you back to the office. When you return to the office and the clerk asks you what you want, you say you want a permit and beg him to give you one. This officer asks you to talk politely to him and you reply and say: "No, I am talking nicely." (Laughter) It is only then that he gives you this permit. It would be a good thing if the department could see to it that this matter is finally settled so that people do not have to go round about before obtaining the necessary permit. In fact, the Government should see to it that . free movement of stock is allowed so that my people should get whatever kind of stock they desire . The Government should also do something about the price one has to pay in purchasing livestock. Even scrub stock is very costly. The cattle die and they should not be so expensive. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN : Hon member, we are talking about permits. MR NKOSIYANE : I shall now take my seat. CHAIRMAN I think I should now call upon the mover to reply. CHIEF S. S. MAJEKE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I have nothing further to say, except that it is obvious that the motion is considered to be important by all sides of the House. Those hon members who have
CONSTRUCTION OF BRIDGES DISTRICT
: ENGCOBO
MR L. L. MĠUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I would request the Chairman to allow me to speak sitting. Mr Chairman, I move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the desirability of providing funds, as a matter of urgency, for the construction and making of: (a) (i) A bridge on the Mgwali River between Beyele and Manzana Administrative Areas, Engcobo district;
(ii) A bridge on the Mgwali River between Emjanyana and Ngcaca Administrative Areas, Engcobo district; (iii) A bridge on the Qumanco River between Beyele/Qumanco and Egoso Administrative Areas, Engcobo district; (b) A short-cut road connecting the districts of St. Marks, Tsomo and Engcobo through Qwebe-qwebe Administrative Area, St. Marks district and Ngqaba and Egoso Administrative Areas Engcobo district to connect the Engcobo- Idutywa road." MR S. A. XOBOLOLO : I second, Mr Chairman. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman, I will not be lengthy over this motion because we have been discussing matters concerning road and bridges ad infinitum in this House. We are about to become tired of this type of motion, but it is necessary to introduce them. I am crippled so I cannot even swim. (Laughter) The bridge under (a) (i) is important because in Manzana administrative area there is a senior secondary school and such a school does not exist in Beyele. Children in the neighbouring localities have to cross the Mgwali River at the upper end and it is a long way round, which means it takes a long time for them to reach this school. A bridge could be constructed in a straight line from Beyele to Manzana administrative areas. In the rainy season children are very daring and they want to dare the Mgwali River even though it is in flood and they run the risk of being swept away. The drift is very deep and people have long urged the need for a bridge to be constructed at this spot. 174.
MR S. A. XOBOLOLO : Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support this motion. Since the resumption of this House we have been discussing matters which require attention. If since then we have been discussing roads and bridges that indicate sufficiently that this is an urgent matter. The very fact that an hon member will get up and bring to the notice of this House certain bridges and roads in his area which require attention goes to show that roads and bridges are of great importance and that we should not generalize. I will not enumerate these bridges which require to be constructed because I know the spots referred to. We have been passing these motions in this House but we have never yet seen anything done about them. The bridge which was requested first of all by the late Mr Kutu ought long before now to have been constructed. The mover indicated that this bridge should be known as the Kutu Bridge but I think it will be known as Mgudlwa Bridge, because by the time it is constructed he will be the "late" Mr Mgudlwa. It may also be called the Xobololo Bridge, for that matter. The hon the Minister of Roads is aware of the fact that in the Transkei there are no roads whatsoever. It is still better when we say they are in bad condition, but the fact is there are no roads in the Transkei. (Interjections) Roads and bridges are an essential requirement because we will not be able to go anywhere else after independence. We will have to go round in the Transkei. (Interjections) It is our intention to improve the Transkei. (Interjections) I am supporting this motion as I did all the other motions dealing with roads and bridges. I know there are some people who will only agree with me when I have crossed the floor and they will say I am saying something sensible. All along, however, we have been in agreement. Even those who crossed the floor have been in agreement with us. With those few words I support this non-contentious motion. You can see those people who speak in order that they should be voted in next election. We have no fear, because we will be returned. CHAIRMAN: It appears there are no more speakers so I shall call upon the mover to reply. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman and hon members, it is necessary that what is pure should not be polluted by anything undesirable. Even an insect that trespasses there will meet the death that it deserves. (Laughter) My supporter was right in saying that every representative here knows the needs of his locality and knows the hardships that handicap his locality. There was no need for that amendment. MR C. DIKO: Don't talk about the amendment. You are wasting time. MR MGUDLWA: I don't want to say much because silence gives consent and anyone who has not spoken is therefore in line with the motion. I just thank the House for the spirit shown in connection with the motion. Question put and motion carried unanimously.
In regard to (a) (ii) the request is similar because it concerns another bridge to be constructed on the same river between Emjanyana and Ngcaca administrative areas. It must be recalled that the late Mr Kutu made application in connection with this matter. He made this application so that people coming from Kuluku, Xonye and other areas should be able to cross the river, because people on horseback and in cars cannot cross the river at this drift because the road is in extremely bad condition. The department promised that this portion of the road would be inspected but we never received any report indicating the outcome. One of the speakers at the funeral of the late Mr Kutu said he would be pleased if that bridge could be named after the late Mr Kutu. All promises should be fulfilled, especially when such promises are made in connection with the dead. There is a lot of traffic on that road and through that drift. There are two hospitals there, Emjanyana and All Saints' Hospitals, and it is well known that Emjanyana Hospital which used to cater for leprosy patients is situated in a thickly populated area but there is no doctor stationed there so people in the area have to go to All Saints' Hospital. When people from those administrative areas have to go to the magistratie's office in Engcobo on business they have to go a long way round. It is time now to give some relief to people so that they are not made to struggle in this way. I would suggest to the hon the Minister of Roads and Works that that bridge should be called after the late Mr Kutu. It should be known as Kutu Bridge. Coming to (a) (iii) there should be a bridge over the Qumanco River. This bridge will connect three administrative areas Beyele, Qumanco and Egoso. This road will link up with the road between Ngcaca and Egoso administrative areas. We still use ox-wagons and we go and cart wood in the Gqobongco forest. These people are interested in the construction of a bridge on the Intsilingi stream which joins the Qumanco River. If such a bridge is constructed then that road would lead to the Idutywa/Engcobo road. Without wasting the time of the House , let me pass on to paragraph (b). The Government should see that funds are allocated for a road connecting these three districts of St Mark's, Tsomo and Engcobo. A person from St Mark's going to Idutywa has to go a roundabout way. He has to go first to Engcobo instead of going straight to Idutywa. If you leave that place you will then go in a strange line to join the road which I desire constructed, then it would be easy from Idutywa to come to Umtata by the national road. You will then not have to go a roundabout way to get to Umtata. That is a waste of time and in order to avoid such a waste of time these roads should be constructed. I accordingly move, Mr Chairman. MR B. MGUDLWA Mr Chairman and hon members, I wish to assist the last speaker because these bridges are a necessity. I therefore wish to move an amendment to delete all the words after the words "consider the" and to substitute therefor the following:"advisability of constructing bridges in the regions of the Transkei." Mr Chairman, what persuades me to address myself in this strain is that ever since we have sat in this House we have been discussing this one question of bridges. My amendment now will put an end to all these motions with one simple amendment, because it includes the whole of the Transkei. As the hon member has expressed himself, this motion concerns the districts of Tsomo, Cofimvaba and Engcobo. Road connections should now be opened in Umtata, Engcobo , Butterworth, Cala and even across the borders of the Transkei, whereas now instead of applying for one bridge today and another one tomorrow there is just this question of all the bridges being attended to. I think it will make the matter easier so that in our various localities we just approach the department concerned about these bridges, particularly when such a general motion has been passed. I wish the hon member will not take me amiss. I appreciate his motion but let us just move a motion that will cover everything. CHAIRMAN : Hon members, I allowed the mover of the amendment to speak on till he had finished , but I am not going to call for any seconder to this amendment. It is out of order because it seeks to extend the scope of the motion.
INTRODUCTION OF FREEHOLD SYSTEM OF LAND TENURE : FINGOLAND REGION MR S. W. MBANGA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government be respectfully requested to extend to the registered residents of the Fingoland Region a uniform system of land tenure - viz FREEHOLD — in respect of their residential sites and ploughing plots." Mr Chairman, this motion has the full blessings of the regional authority of Fingoland. After the tribal authority representatives had briefed their regional representatives the matter was taken to the level of the regional authority and at the fully attended regional authority meeting a unanimous decision was taken. Both the ex officio and the elected members of parliament of that region had clearance to bring the motion to this House. Mr Chairman and hon members, there are special terms which I need to explain in this motion, the first being "uniform". This at once suggests that there are variations in the land tenure system in that region, and we also have in this motion the term "freehold". We take the view that man's existence - any man for that matter - depends on the manner in which he holds the land he is holding, so that if one has no 175.
land at all this conditions and determines his attitude to life in general. When a man has no possessions whatsoever he behaves, and is correctly and justifiably regarded as a perpetual minor and he becomes a burden on the State. We have at least two ways in which we hold land down that way, the first being by a certificate of occupation; and the second by a title deed of some limitations. The two types of land tenure have given us a certain kind of society. Our society in the main consists of two sections the peasantry and the civil servants and chiefs. I want to lay emphasis on these two sections because at a later stage I shall point out that there is a missing link there, between the peasantry and the civil servants and chiefs. Now, let us attend to the two types of land tenure I have just mentioned. I said the first one was by way of a certificate of occupation. By this method the owner has no security whatsoever. When and if he dies the family is left destitute. Even his own wife has no right to occupy that place until special arrangements have been made for her to occupy, so that if the powers that be choose to be harsh to her she could be moved to another place right away. No heirs can claim any inheritance as of right. By this second method of land tenure - that is, by title deed there are, by way of comparison, a few advantages. The properties held by this method may be sold, exchanged, donated or inherited - nay, I should have said the improvements on that land can or may be inherited, exchanged, donated, etc., but the land itself remains vested in other powers. It is this that this motion seeks to right. Before we suggest ways of going about it, let us compare a white trading station with a black trading station. White people will never accept possession of a land without a proper title deed, which makes him enjoy the right of possession, so when the white traders came to these parts they had their stores properly surveyed and proper freehold title deeds were issued in their favour so that the improvements on these properties, together with what they call in business "goodwill", made very good value of a place. If such property is put up for sale it realises a good and appreciable price. On the other hand, if a black man's trading store should be sold , unless it is done privately and by private arrangement between the purchaser and the seller, the proper way would be for the owner to sell only the improvements because the land does not belong to him. It was therefore felt down in Fingoland that if freehold rights were extended and occupation by certificate abolished in favour of freehold, most of our people would benefit by owning land in the form of their residential sites and ploughing plots. Geographically Fingoland is the smallest region in the Transkei and we do not hope to trek anywhere for extensions other than trying to improve what we have. If the smallest piece of land, for instance, were sold to the present owner, say for R100 , and you have about 500 residents in a location this works out to R50 000 as an open balance for that particular location only, and if the whole district has about 25 locations the headquarters of that district stands to have a sum total of R1 250 000 but the way we have been brought up makes us not only oblivious but ignorant of the land which keeps down under our feet so much money. The latest trend today is to decentralize the responsibility of a State. Transkei will soon be independent and will be faced with national issues and we will have no time at all to attend to things like local bridges . If we follow the present trend, which is the trend of all nations in the world -i.e. decentralization some of these responsibilities would rebound on the local authorities. What obtains in this part of the country now is what went on in the 12th century in Europe. It was known as the feudal system of land tenure, with the result that there was no middle class which is the brain and mind of any nation. I said previously we found ourselves being a society of only two sections the peasantry and the civil servants. This humble motion seeks to create a vigorous class in between, without which no nation can hope to survive. When you have the brawn and the sinew then you need the brains . We have seen this system of land tenure in operation elsewhere. The local authority owns the land and it must have money. If the money is there then improvements follow. Before I continue my debate, Mr Chairman, I wish to make a correction. I said at the beginning the occupation by
certificate had no privileges of inheritance to the heirs. My attention has been drawn to a circular which I missed, to the effect that in fact a property owned by certificate of occupation may be inherited by the heir. CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA: May be. MR MBANGA: Yes, it can be. "May" is a wide term. Now, back to my argument. We said people do not have the right to the land but to the improvements only. In spite of the fact that we have no direct right to the land many of us have taken great risks already. Tens of thousands of rand have been spent in building very expensive houses on ground that does not belong to that person and yet if that land and house had belonged to this person he would have been in a position to raise a loan equivalent to the value of the property, placing this land and house as collateral. It can therefore be seen at once that if a man is in a position to raise a loan up to the value of the house and land that man is in a position to develop further and further. The matter of raising loans is an old one with us, but for a long time and for the most part it has been done at a very low level. We know how some men have gone to a shopkeeper and asked him for R20 to go to Johannesburg and has offered to pay back the money within a few months. At the moment we except our sons to go to a moneylender and say: Here is my property; may I raise a loan from you? This obnoxious feature of this kind of land tenure is extended to ploughing plots as well. If the owner fails to pay the quitrent it is an indication that the land does not belong to you and after a set period that land is confiscated. If there are any among us who think by extending a uniform freehold system of land tenure to us means a kind of breaking away from authority, we shall have to correct this as well. Not only will the local authority benefit by the sums I have quoted just now, but the central Government will also benefit from taxation on these properties held by people. I do not know if all of us are aware of some of the heavy taxes paid by some of us in this House now on properties they own. This motion attempts then to commercialize our agriculture as well. When the local people have the money then that money can be used to purchase modern equipment, suitable fertilizers and everything of that kind so that they are able to engage in agriculture for better results. This makes me recall the motion we had a week or two ago, requesting this Government to buy thrashing machines for a small area of the Transkei when such people are known to be owning tracts and tracts of land . I have a feeling that I have said enough on this motion . I must reiterate that Fingoland very respectivelly requests this House to consider this motion with all sympathy. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR K. M. GUZANA: Second the motion, Chief Zulu. CHIEF H. Z. ZULU: I second, Mr Chairman. MR GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I think the motivation behind this motion is well founded and this side of the House supports the motion warmly. Before standing up I asked the hon chief from Butterworth, who is head of the regional authority there, to indicate his support of this motion and he stood up and so he seconds this motion. This is really a departure from the usual concept where chiefs seek to exercise control of land to the detriment of those who are supposed to use land. As soon as we begin to reorientate our thinking on how land should be held in the Transkei , the better we shall be in the final analysis. Bungas have avoided this thorny question; territorial authorities have evaded this thorny question, and now we must look at it squarely in the face and make a decision that is going to benefit everybody in the Transkei. No people who have set their face against stagnation and have committed themselves to progress can allow this to be knee-haltered for all time by antiquated and feudalistic system of land tenure. Since this Government has asked for independence and pretends to be mature enough to take that further constitutional step then it must take everything else wih it and review those old inhibitive traditions that hold back the economic development of the people. I derive pleasure in supporting this motion although I would have liked it to be a wider one embracing the whole of the Transkei. 176.
tions) Many of you hon members of the governing party are heads of areas which have been rehabilitated and you constantly come in here to this House or go to the Department of Agriculture and say they haven't laid out the streets, they haven't put up toilet facilities, they haven't provided you with electricity, they haven't provided you with chlorinated water; and you are passing on this responsibility to the Department of Agriculture when the key is in the hands of those who have to decide on ownership of land under title deed. Take a residential area under the rehabilitation scheme where you have about 200 families owning the land under title deed. They pay rates to the local authority that is the municipality of that rehabilitated area. They pay annual rates and all these funds are used to provide amenities for the people living in that rehabilitated area. The trouble is that you people want the amenities of western culture but are not prepared to pay for them. You come here with a motion sceking something about which, I don't know .... MR H. D. MLONYENI : Bridges. seeking that a black location MR GUZANA : should have lights. Who do you think pays for that other than the people who live there? They do have to pay money to get services rendered. (Interjections) And so you have your rehabilitated areas in the rural community becoming torches of light and civilization throughout the Transkei. You don't expect to have your cake and eat it. I will say that again. You people want to use the toilets here which flush with water, but you have to pay for it. Yes, I can understand people who ask if they can have that in the rural areas, because whenever they feel the call of nature they hope that a pig follows them out into the bundu. (Laughter) And you are satisfied with that situation because when next I call at your home you want to slaughter that pig for me. (Laughter) That kind of thinking must come to an end and you have to move with the times as the times change. M/AGRICULTURE : We don't want waste. MR GUZANA: Some people say we don't want waste. The end result of not wanting waste is that you yourself will die. It is most gratifying indeed that the torch is being lit in Fingoland along this road to change. I am not surprised because right back in the history of the Blacks in South Africa the Fingoes always stepped ahead. (Interjections) MEMBERS: Yes, that's right. MR GUZANA: And they have continued to go ahead all the time. MEMBER: To the bottle-store. (Laughter) D/CHAIRMAN: Order. Hon members are too noisy in this House. MR GUZANA: Yes, probably they taught you how to get to the bottle-store, but they did not remain there and those who followed them there have remained there. (Laughter) This, hon members, is a very importnot so much for what it seeks to do, ant motion but for its consequences; and in relation to this idea I refer to this zoning proclamation which precludes every financial institution from acquiring proprietary rights over immovable property of Blacks , except the XDC (now the TDC) and the South Africa Bantu Trust. You think you are being protected from exploitation by white financial institutions when in effect you are being handicapped financially because you cannot go to the EPBS or the Southern Building Society to pledge or mortgage your property in order to have the funds to expand in all directions. Do you realise that all that one needs to keep you tame is to hold back money from you? You can actually condition the thinking of an individual by giving him money, and so when you have no property to pledge for money that you want you are told: All right, I will lend it to you but you must be careful --- you must do what I want you to do. (Interjections ) This is as against your having property and you enter into negotiation as between equal partners. So because there is no money in the Opposition , some of them have been offered some and they have been trotting across this floor. (Laughter) And because the Opposition has no farms the Government says : Come along, we will give you farms - and so they trot along. This motion seeks to give you human dignity and bargaining power in commercial transactions. MR H. D. MLONYENI: What about the unrehabilitated areas?
GOVT MEMBERS : No, only in Fingoland. MR C. DIKO : Stick to the motion. D/CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR GUZANA: And it is my hope that the protesting members of this House will go home to their regional authorities and motivate this change so that we may have a complete overhaul of our system of land tenure applicable to the whole Transkei. (Interjections) Not so long ago you supported a motion for the grant of farms to you because you are political supporters of the Government. Are you going to hold these farms on a certificate of occupation? Whoever holds a farm, I ask you, on a certificate of occupation? (Interjections) You cannot have your cake and eat it at one and the same time. Let me remind you that this motion has your approval at the caucus. CHIEF P. JOZANA: Not for the whole Transkei . MR DIKO: For Fingoland only. MR GUZANA: I do not attend your caucus and I am going to speak the way I like. (Interjections) D/CHAIRMAN: Order, hon members. MR GUZANA: It is not surprising that there should be resistance to change, because many of us are inhibited by a conservative traditionalism. Those who seek to continue into the future the antiquities of yesterday know what milk they draw from this cow. (Laughter) I am not surprised at your reaction because those who get most out of an irregular arrangement are hardest to change. CHIEF JOZANA : Talk about the motion. MR GUZANA: After you have made all the noise you can we shall get on with supporting this motion willy-nilly, and we are going to have you voting for it too. (Laughter) you are right. MR DIKO: We shall vote for it MR GUZANA : Well just keep quiet and let me speak to it. I very much support the point made by the mover in relation to the value of having ownership which is the Open Sesame to financial strength. Many of you have envied other citizens and members of the white group for the cars they drive, for the house they live in and you have wondered why you are not able to do likewise. Let me give you a simple formula which is used. You go to a building society and raise a loan of R20 000 when you are going to build a house for R25 000, and you pledge your title deed for the loan by way of a mortgage bond. (Interjections) I am asking you to listen because we have got to change our attitudes of mind to commerce. I am giving you a tip today. The repayment rates are R70 or R80 a month. In three to four years' time you have reduced the loan from R20 000 to about R16 000. You go back to the bond holder and you say: Lend me another R4 000 by way of a re-advance back to the R20 000; and you buy yourself a Mercedes Benz. (Interjections) In the meantime you have improved your earning capacity and in two or three years you have reduced this loan to R16 000 again. You go back to the bond holder and ask for a re-advance of R4 000 because you want to start a shop. He gives you the R4 000 and you start a shop. In other words , your earning capacity now is increased by this investment against your land and improvements thereon, secured by your title deed . But you people like to buy things as if you are buying a box of matches so that you can say: This is my box of matches; this is my house. That is out in the commercial world. CHIEF JOZANA : What happens if you die? MR GUZANA: Someone asks what will happen if you die - as if you have any control over that. You might die now and you might owe money at the bottlestore. (Laughter) What then? I would rather owe money on a house than have a debt at a bottle-store. All right, now let me tell you what provision you make in the event of your dying. All you do is to take out an insurance policy to cover the bond of R20 000 and you your pay something like R15 or R16 a month. (Interjections) You take out a policy today, you die next month, and the amout of R20 000 owing on your property is wiped out by the insurance company and your wife gets a house froee from mortgage bond. If you haven't any insurance , don't try this sort of thing because your land is still in the 17th century. (Laughter) The point which we want to emphasize is this that ownership under title deed opens up vast possibilities in the commercial and industrial world. (Interjec177 .
MR GUZANA: You go to a prospective moneylender and you say: I have my title deed and the improvements there are worth R50 000 and the total value is R70 000 and I want R50 000. If he refuses to lend you the money you go to the next man. If he says "No" you go on to another until you get what you want, because you have something with which to bargain. Oh, how obvious this is even in our tribal situation. They even go on to say in the tribal set-up that the man who has many sheep speaks the truth and the man who has nothing is a liar. That is the basis. (Laughter) And yet the truth and the falsehood may be vice versa. That is, the person who has all the sheep may be telling the lie and the poor man who has nothing may be speaking the truth. Now, if you transpose that concept to the modern day mechanical, commercial, industrial world you will realise how important it is that you should not always be crawling on your belly when you enter into transactions involving money. Whether the area is rehabilitated or not rehabilitated - that is irrelevant. We want a person to own the land. That is the thing. One of the concepts under Black Consciousness is that it seeks to restore to the black man his dignity. Now, you can never have dignity, man, when your trousers have two ventilators at the back. (Laughter) You need to have something which you can call your own, other than your wife. It is only then that you begin to see yourself to be a man. You begin to realise that nobody can say what he likes to you. You begin to realise that you can project and assert your ideas and not sell the truth in order to get privilege. The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 27 April 19776. TUESDAY, 27 APRIL 19776
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should consider the advisability of extending the size of a General Dealer's site to at least 2 morgan to allow for the adequate expansion of prospective business activities."
60. Chief D. D. P. Ndamase gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of providing additional accommodation for at least 150 pupils at the Efata School for the deaf and dumb."
61.
Mr. B. P. Vapi gave notice to move :-
"Inat in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should consider the advisability of constructing port in Port St. Johns or in any other suitable area along the Transkei coast." QUESTIONS
QUESTION NO. 63 Chief S. L. Sigcau asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:"(a) Who controls the released land of Mkhambati in the Lusikisiki district?
(b) What active project is envisaged in the said area? (c) If there be a project envisaged
(i) What project? (ii) When is it to be started, and (iii) By whom and how is it to be run?
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
(d) If there is no project envisaged why not?" REPLY:
ANNOUNCEMENTS
"(a) The Department of Agriculture and Forestry controls the released land of Mkhambati in the Lusikisiki district;
CHAIRMAN: Hon members, a telegram has been received from the magistrate of Mount Fletcher, as follows: "Please release Chiefs S. M. Zibi and D. L. Lupindo to attend an executive committee meeting on 28 April 1976."
(b) A cattle fattening and breeding scheme is envisaged for this area;
(c) These schemes are being planned by the Department of Agriculture and Forestry and the Xhosa Development Corporation.
NOTICES OF MOTION 55. Chief D. D. P. Ndamase gave notice to move:-
It is anticipated that the planning of these schemes will be completed in the very near future and will then be discussed in detail with the Qaukeni Regional Authority."
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of appointing a wage determination commission with a view to collecting evidence from both employers and employees to enable the Government to ameliorate, where necessary by legislation, the conditions of employment." 56.
QUESTION NO. 64:
Mr. H. H. Zibi asked the Miinister of Roads and Works:-
Chief D. D. P. Ndamase gave notice to move :—
"Arising from the reply to Question No. 51 whether in the present distribution of machinery to Regions conideration was given to:
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of establishing a Senior Secondary School in the Village Management Board Commonage of Ngqeleni."
(a) The number of districts constituting a Region;
(b) The physical position of each district and/or its topography;
57. Chief D. D. P. Ndamase gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of establishing creeches at all industrial growth point towns in the towns in the Transkei." 58.
(c) If so , why the seemingly anomalous manner of the distribution in question?” REPLY :
Mr. D. J. Ndleleni gave notice to move :-
"(a) No.
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should consider the advisability of the immediate erection of a hospital complex (preferably with training facilities) in the Maluti Township so as to alleviate the grave shortage of hospital accommodation obtaining in Matatiele and in general, Maluti Region as a whole."
59.
(b) Yes. (c) Distribution of machinery is in accordance with road distances and traffic counts."
QUESTION NO. 65: Mr. N. Sipunzi asked the Minister of Roads and Works :-
Mr. D. J. Ndleleni gave notice to move :178 .
(i) Hermitage (Matatiele) (ii) Sehlabeng (Matatiele)
"(a) Will the Minister of Roads and Works make a statement on the erection of the Nozizwe Primary School in the Willowvale district in view of the following facts?
(b) Further, is the Honourable Minister of Health aware that the Maluti Social Worker (stationed in Mount Fletcher) has been without a motor vehicle transport a considerable time?"
(i) Delay in construction; (ii) The structural defects in the roofs of two classrooms and the administrative block in spite of official approval of the defective structure by an official Inspector of building construction;
REPLY :
"(a) A school nurse makes frequent visits to schools in the area. At present no clinics exist in the areas mentioned. Application was made by Chief Sibi for the establishing of three clinics in the area under his jurisdiction in November 1975. Each site has been inspected by officials of my Department and once clinics are established they will be inspected routinely..
(iii) The need for reconstruction and repair of the defects referred to in (ii); (iv) The contractor's inability to complete the construction of the school within a reasonable time.
(b) Welfare is not a function of my Department." (b) In relation to the Nozizwe Primary School in the Willowvale district, what amount of the contract price has been paid to the contractor to date?
(c)
(i) Is there a penalty clause in the contract for the building of the Nozizwe Primary School?
QUESTION NO. 67 : Mr. H. H. Zibi asked the Minister of Roads and Works :"Whether the Minister is aware:
(a) of the meagre wages paid to local African employees by the building contractor , H. M. Russell (Pty) Ltd at present constructing the administrative block at Mount Fletcher?
(ii) If there is a penalty clause, how much has been debited against the contract price by reason of the contractor's default (d)
(i) Is the Department of Roads and Works aware of the fact that a grader has been lying inoperative between Willowvale and and Idutywa for over six months? What is the Department doing about this negligence?
(b) that the said state of affairs is allegedly a result of the influence of local whites in the village, what antidote does the Minister offer to apply?" REPLY:
"(a) No. (b) I am not aware of any outside influence. It has, however, been ascertained that the wages paid for any particular work by the contractor are above the ruling wages for the particular area."
(ii) Is the Department aware of the fact that gravel heaps along the road from Williowvale Village to Nqadu Great Place have been there for over two years?
REPLY : "(a)
QUESTION NO. 68: Mr. H. H. Zibi asked the Minister of Roads and Works:-
(i) This can only be attributed to the lack of building experience on the part of the contractor.
"(a) Whether he is aware that the Road from the Mt. Fletcher Village to Tabase Store has not been attended to since the inception of the Transkeian Government?
(ii) Regular inspections were carried out at this school by an Inspector of Works of my Department. The structural defects were never brought to the notice of my Department by the official concerned . This official has been withdrawn from the Transkei.
(b) As next to the said Tabasc Store there is an important Police station which curbs the activities of livestock thieves who link with those from Lesotho, will the Minister as a matter of urgency see to the repair of the Road in question at the carliest conveience?"
(iii) The reconstruction of the defects will be undertaken by my Department utilizing departmental staff.
REPLY :
(iv) See my reply under (a) (i) above.
"(a) No. (b) R12 950,00. (b) Matter will be investigated ."
(c)
(i) Yes. QUESTION NO. 69:
(ii) Unknown. This is a function of the Tribal Authority as they enter into contracts with the builders. (d)
Mr. K. M. N. Guzana asked the Minister of the Interior:"(a) Is it correct that Farms near Queenstown namely Webbworth Farm and Hafton Farm are now respectively occupied and used by Paramount Chief K. D. Matanzima and Chief George Matanzima?
(i) Yes. It is however not negligence but as a result of a shortage of mechanical staff.
(ii) Yes." QUESTION NO. 66 :
(b) If the answer to Question (a) is yes, on what date did they take occupation of the Farms?
Mr. D. J. Ndleleni asked the Minister of Health as follows:
(c) Have the Farms been bought by them from the South African Bantu Trust or are they a free gift to them by the S.A.B.T. or the Transkei Government?
"(a) Is the Honourable the Minister of Health aware that the two following administrative areas are seldom visited by Health Officials etc? 179.
an awareness of the ability and capability of the individual to project himself positively into society. This therefore emphasizes the invaluable asset for a business transaction which a man holds when he has title to land, and if we think that Black Consciousness means violence, means exclusiveness, means confrontation, we have got a wrong notion of what it stands for. It means self-help which does not necessarily exclude from others in order to help oneself. It means that the black man ceases to be only the muscle and brawn of our economic development, but also the brains involved in that development. And so his title deed becomes a strong magnet, an unfailing magnet to draw capital into his hands so that he may diversify investment with a view to stimulating not only his own development but also development of those around him. And that is the reason why I support this motion wholly. This motion seeks to remove this regular, almost semi-traditional habit of the black man to be stretching out a hand to receive largesse. It means, in effect, that when a black man asks for rights and privileges he is prepared to discharge his duties and obligations first and foremost in order to ensure rights and privileges coming to him. In closing, Mr Chairman, may I make this solemn that this motion would not have come remark before the House but for a whole-hearted support from the automatic members of this House who are on the Government side. In effect it means that the chiefs and the paramount chiefs are moving away from the concept of holding land in the traditional retrogressive handicapping way. (Interjections) In fact, when the hon backbenchers react in this fashion I wonder whether I am throwing swine before pearls or pearls before swine. (Laughter) It means that they are moving with the times, that they are seeing the greater benefit coming to their subjects with a change in the concept of land tenure, and I feel assured that this motion is going to be carried unanimously and that all other regions .... GOVT MEMBERS: No, you are wrong. CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR GUZANA : that all other regions will see the light as it is aflame in Fingoland. CHIEF P. JOZANA : Yes, in Fingoland region. MR GUZANA: They cannot turn their backs to that light because the light is attractive. Please don't betray a schism in the Government party MR C. DIKO : The motion is supported. CHIEF JOZANA: For Fingoland only. MR GUZANA : .... as you might well, in so doing, put on the brakes to an otherwise changing psychological approach to the problems of the Transkei. If the chiefs show themselves to be dragging their feet over this matter we shall certainly get them to the upper house. (Laughter) Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR H. PAMLA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I rise in support of this motion. Before I discuss the pros and cons of the subject matter I want to remind hon members of the House of a quotation that was made some time back by somebody. He said in South Africa you find a queer situation - that those who own the land do not till it and those who till the land do not own it. The only reason why you have a situation like this in this country is because of this land tenure business. Again, I want to say that somebody from the Opposition once described what took place in South Africa with the advent of the white man. The white people gave us the Bible and they told us to open this book and look at the heavens from whence cometh our help; and while we were looking up they took our land from us and, as a result of that, today we have no land rights. (Laughter) Mr Chairman, the whole system of land tenure in respect of the Blacks in South Africa needs a thorough investigation. It needs a gradual revision so as to enable Blacks to enjoy freehold land tenure which gives economic stability to any society. I will not bore you by going into the details of what I mean by economic stability, because I think the hon the Leader of the Opposition made a thorough explanation of the subject yesterday. While we are discussing a motion that confines itself to one region in the Transkei, I think it would not be out of order to give a few examples of places where this system of freehold land tenure among Africans has proved a success. Let us take the question of Indians. When Indians came to this country they were given freehold rights. They bought property and they owned property
(d) Do the Farms form part of the land addition to the Transkei land area? (e) Who issued to Chief George Matanzima according to a report in the Sunday Tribune of the 18th April, 1976 "a letter authorising his occupation of the Farm" i.e. Hafton Farm? (f) Is the occupation of the two Farms by Paramount Chief K. D. Matanzima and Chief George Matanzima implementation of the motion which came before this House and sponsored by the honourable member Mr. M. P. Ludidi, seeking to make free Farm gifts to Paramount Chiefs and To prospective farmers who have rendered faithful service in the development of their country, the Transkei". If not, on what grounds have the Farms been made available to them?"
REPLY:
"(a) ― (f) As far as is known the farms in question were purchased by the South African Bantu Trust and are situate outside the Transkei as described in Section 2 of the Transkei Constitution Act 1963 (Act No. 48 of 1963) . On account of the aforementioned and the fact that the land is situate outside the area of my Department's jurisdiction I do not have sufficient information at my disposal to reply to the honourable member. " MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, arising out of the reply by the hon the Minister of the Interior, in view of the fact that this information is required can the hon the Minister of the Interior not make this information available after deriving it from the correct source? I think the hon the Minister of the Interior is aware of the importance of the replies to these questions and it relates to members of this House. M/INTERIOR: Mr Chairman and hon members, although in my reply I have said that in the end I did not have sufficient information at my disposal to reply to the hon member, we did make an inquiry in connection with these lands and we established that they were purchased by the South African Bantu Trust, but a formal hand-over to the Transkei has not been made. I do not know whether the hon member wants me to find out about land which is not officially part of the Transkei at the moment.
QUESTION NO. 70: Mr. H. H. Zibi asked the Chief Minister:"Whether the further development of Maluti Township is relevant any more now that the Transkei is graduating into Independence and in the process taking in willy-nilly the so-called white town of Matatiele?" REPLY : "The question should be addressed to the Minister of the Interior in view of the fact that the development of Maluti Township is the responsibility of the Department of the Interior." INTRODUCTION OF FREEHOLD SYSTEM OF LAND TENURE : FINGOLAND REGION The debate was resumed. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, yesterday afternoon I was emphasizing the need for developing a person's individuality and selfrespect by giving him the wherewithal to bargain and enter into trade and financial transactions generally, and I was emphasizing in that context the importance of making it possible for people in the rural areas to hold title deed to land. As we rose yesterday I was canvassing this conecpt of Black Consciousness and pointing out that no man can become conscious of himself either as belonging to a particular race group or as being part of a multiracial community unless he has something with which to bargain. I want to emphasize the fact that the philosophy in this concept of Black Consciousness is an awareness of oneself and
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and today almost half of West Street in Durban belongs to Indians, and it is a highly developed area. In fact, at one stage the South African Government failed to take part of that area because it was too expensive to compensate those Indians. When Dr Malan was canvassing the repatriation of Indians as part of his policy towards the Indian people in South Africa, he found himself in difficulties because he could not afford to reimburse all the Indians who owned those huge properties in Natal. Now, hon members, I feel that people who refuse Africans an opportunity to enjoy freehold rights are people who are short of vision. CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA : What about Umzimkulu region? MR PAMLA: I want to remind them from the Bible that where there is no vision the people perish . As I have said, the major advantage of a freehold right is an economic one and we have got to realise that the African people are undergoing a very fast social change. He is fast moving away from a communal system of living to an individualistic system of living. Now this old communal system of land ownership presupposes that each and every resident of the administrative area still adheres to the Communal system of living. CHIEF MABANDLA : Mr Chairman, may I put a question. I wish to ask the hon member for Umzimkulu if he wants the whole Transkei to follow the move taken by Fingoland area. GOVT MEMBERS : Sit down! MR PAMLA: Mr Chairman, I am sorry that this gentleman just wishes to waste my time. In fact, I even forgot to call him "honourable". Now, I am not going to answer his question because he wants to read something else into my address. The statements I am making here are so axiomatic that he is not in a position to appreciate what I am saying. Now, to go back to that question of communal life among Africans, the attitudes of Africans in these rural areas is fast undergoing a change socially. In the olden days, for instance, if an adult male saw cattle destroying crops in someone else's field and he saw the boys were herding the cattle about the place he was at liberty to apply corporal punishment to those boys and he would get no remonstration from the parents. I would like to warn these people who think we are still very communal in our activities that if you make an attempt today to do that sort of thing you will find yourself charged with assault and the child will be taken to a doctor to establish possible injuries. Subsequently you will find yourself in court with a lot of civil claims against you. Before I sit down, Mr Chairman, let me give you a few instances where this system of land tenure has operated successfully. You have a place like Edendale in Natal, for instance, where the African people out there have freehold rights and I want to tell you that the development is fantastic. You have chaps like Jongi who lives in a skryscraper. Who would ever build a skyscraper on a piece of land that did not belong to him? If you have no knowledge of economics perhaps you can do that sort of thing. It is interesting to tell this House that in Edendale you still have a chief there who is fully in charge, and that is Chief Mini. He is highly respected by his subjects. Take another example of Groutville in Stanger. Again in this area economic development among the Africans there is wonderful, to say the least of it. It is 50 miles out of Durban and those people had the late politician, Chief A. J. Luthuli, as their chief. Now, in that area you find sugarcane farming. You find some people have only two acres and they are able to make a decent living out of that two acres of land. An example of a place which has a freehold system of land tenure is Driefontein towards Ladysmith. Again in that area there was a very good chief who was highly respected, and that was Chief Kumalo. A chief who will suffer from a complex when he hands his people freehold cannot inspire confidence in his people. I want to tell you that the Kwazulu Government has instituted a commission to investigate the whole system of land tenure, so let us not be blind to the reality of the situation. Modern standards , modern thought, modern attitudes and propensities demand a complete reorientation of our backward attitudes towards land tenure. Mr Chairman, we are assembled in here to lay a firm foundation for the benefit not of ourselves, but of our progeny. We certainly cannot
afford to be short of vision. We want to thank the Fingoland region for this very brave step in the development of the African people. MR K. M. GUZANA: Hear, hear. MR PAMLA: I end up by quoting from that great poet: The old order changeth, yielding place to new; and God fulfils himself in many ways lest one good custom should corrupt the world. Thank you , Mr Chairman . MR N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon members , I fully support this motion from the Fingoland region. Firstly, I want to congratulate the hon chief from Butterworth who, together with his followers, have come to this wonderful decision. They took this matter to the Fingoland regional authority and it was accepted unanimously by that authority. Many people say that the present system of land tenure has caused delay in our progress. These people have taken the lead and it would appear that some people are following, but others do not see the light. This is but the beginning and it is bound to throw light on other regions. We are at present speaking about a single region - Fingoland - and as people will be watching to see what progress is made there, others are bound to follow suit. There is one point which was not clear to me and I wish the hon the Minister of the Interior were present to enlighten us on this. We have three systems of land tenure in our country --- firstly, the land held under a certificiate of occupation ; then there are quitrent allotments which have title deeds; and the third one is freehold. MR C. DIKO: Speak to the motion. MR JAFTA: I do not know which of these titles we get, because in the administrative areas it is difficult for us to get any title. MR DIKO: Read the motion, It speaks about Fingoland only. MR JAFTA: I mention this because it concerns all the administrative areas of the Transkei. We meet the difficulty that if one has to take over an old trading store which was under freehold title, when this store is transferred to the black trader he is not issued with freehold title. He is given title with a quitrent of R24 per annum. What I want to know is whether the grant in Fingoland will be a freehold grant. It is of great importance that we should be granted freehold land. The speakers have indicated that when a man has freehold title he can then treat the land as his own personal property. Then erosion will have no effect on such land because the owner can take steps to protect it from being eroded, because a person is proud of what is his own and he will then realise that it is his main livelihood and it I amounts to his own money and he will be interested in protecting such property. The action taken by Fingoland region resulting in this motion will bring light to the whole of the Transkei. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR JAFTA: People will gradually follow the step taken by the Fingo region. It will not take a short time, because those who are in authority over us are gaining something from this system. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Order, hon members. MR JAFTA: Though a thing may be very good for people, they will not at once follow what is good for them. I fully support this motion. Even those chiefs who seem by word of mouth to support this motion must do so in earnest. REV. G. T. VIKA : Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support this motion. It is a one-sided and straightforward motion and I think it is just like water which has been lying about six feet underground and noone has tapped it in the past, but once one taps this water everyone rushes to it. I think we should all accept the fact that a human being in essence considers his individuality as of primary importance. We are all here as members of parliament but every now and then every individual wants to be heard by his constituency. You find hon members sometimes all wanting to speak on a single motion , just because they feel they must state their views on an issue, this even though they have realised that several members have stated what they think . This is because an individual is an individual. He wants to express himself and wants to be involved in life as an individual. Even if you go to athletic sports you will find that though a certain school in an area sometimes 181 .
chooses a strong team, at the end of the day you get what is called the Victor Ludorum. Someone who has competed for his own team tries to show that he is better than the others. Even if you go to war you find people saying they are fighting for their country, but you find a man saying he is prepared to die for his country because as an individual he has a feeling that he is distinct from anyone else. Now, Mr Chairman, there is a sense in which an individual is attached more closely to anything that is his own. That is his spirit of possessiveness. He is prepared to do anything because it is his own thing. Imbued with this spirit of possessiveness we find a man even leaving his home for a number of years to go to the mines and work for his children so that they can be educated. He is striving to improve his own children. You find a man saying he has come to work for his own children. Now, land tenure or possession of land is no exception in this respect. If you own land communally there is a difference when you are owning it by freehold. Community ownership of land is important and yet it is secondary to private ownership. Now, I am emphasizing this, Mr Chairman, because here we are faced with a system which was forced down our throats a system of owning land communally. If we consider that communal land ownership is secondary to private land ownership, it is for us to change the situation. There are practical problems we have come across in this communal land ownership. In fact, this has been stated year after year in this Chamber when we have discussed the policy for Agriculture. Farming, be it agricultural or pastoral, is something which one is born into something in which someone can be said to be a born farmer. Now, the system of our land tenure in the Transkei presupposes that everyone who is born in the Transkei is a born farmer. We all agree that because we have no minerals in the Transkei our only source of wealth or livelihood up to now has been the soil. Now, if we do not devote ourselves to the soil with every member who can exploit the land, we are bound to fail. We have failed in the past in the Transkei because, as someone has said, those who own the land do not till the soil because of the problems attached to our present system of land tenure. In our present system you find there are people who are dedicated to farming but their efforts are being frustrated by indifferent neighbours who don't care whether they use their land or not. Now, ownership of land, if my hon friend from Emboland did not understand, denotes freehold title. If you own land you have an incentive to work that land, to improve that land, and to sink your capital in that land, as against spending money on land which can be taken away from you any day at the whim of anyone who is in authority, because if you hold land by permission to occupy you can be removed from that land - it doesn't matter how much manure you have put in or how much you have improved that land. Now, quite a lot of facts have been put forward in support of this motion and I am not going to repeat, them, but this one I want to state even if I am repeating what someone else has said. We are dealing here with a motion from Fingoland region, not necessarily from the Fingoes. It is from a region of the Transkei and it is my hope, and I think the hope of many others inside this House, that what Fingoland region has started it will demonstrate to the rest of us is a very good thing, just in the same way as Western Tembuland has showed us it was a good thing to introduce compulsory education. What obtains in Fingoland region in fact obtains in regions like Umtata in Tembuland and other areas with surveyed districts.I hope and would warn those who do not want to realise this, that as we are going to support this motion it is a motion which comes from one of the regions of the Transkei - not necessarily the Fingoes - and yet Fingoland region has chiefs. Finally, I want to dare to burn my fingers on this one (Laughter) and I wish to address myself to my chiefs in this House. I am one of the obedient subjects in my area and it is known that I could never strive to rise against my chiefs but I wish to state that the present land tenure system presupposes that the land belongs to the tribe or tribes and not to individuals, Tribes have got leaders and a wise leader is always careful to see whether the people he is leading are following him or not. I wish to state that most people in the Transkei would like or would be interested
to see this system of freehold land tenure introduced to their own areas. I think our leaders should accept the fact that they get hamels or whatever they want from the wealthy subjects in their areas (Interjections) and you can only get a hamel from a person who appreciates your leadership, or from a person who feels that what you are doing is right. I am trying to allay the fears of our hon chiefs, that if we get this freehold land tenure in the Transkei it does not mean an end to chieftainship. With these few remarks, Mr Chairman, I would like to support the motion. MR P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman and hon members, this motion was introduced and we have been listening very attentively and then we began to realise how Nongqause came into existence. (Laughter) Some strangers came and they met Nongqause and these strangers told Nongqause the way people should live. We stayed in Tembuland making observations, and these strangers came and amongst them was a certain man called Hall who came to survey the land. We learnt that someone on a previous occasion arrived and said people were going to be resurrected. This man was known as Nompunza and he went even as far as Gcalekaland telling the people that those who had died would rise up again. The Tembu people listened and they wanted to find whether this was truth or lies, because in their wisdom the Tembus did not accept everything they were told, because everything that came to our people from the West is usually dangerous and of no use to us. During our time people came and suggested the survey of land but the Tembus refused. When this man known as Hall came to survey the land the Tembus, and particularly those of Dalindyebo and Mqanduli, did not accept the survey. At that time one Bacela was ruling in our part of the country and when a suggestion for the survey of land was made he only said those who were willing to accept the survey should do so, but the people of Mqanduli have refused up to date. Again, a suggestion was made for the destruction of all goats, but the Tembus refused-- and particularly Chief Bacela. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN: Hon member, I think your introduction is sufficient now. Come to the motion. MR NKOSIYANE : Now there is something new which is being introduced by Fingoland region. This matter comes from the members of the regional authority, but the people of that region have not been consulted. (Laughter) This has been brought to this Assembly by the enlightened people of that region, but the rest have not been consulted. Those people are going to struggle in those conditions because they will be required to buy that land as the land is going to be sold. MR S. W. MBANGA: Mr Chairman, on a point of order I would like to draw the attention of the House to the fact that the hon member for Mqanduli is misleading this House. CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA: How? MR MBANGA: When this motion was first introduced yesterday it was mentioned that Fingoland region had, from the lowest levels through the tribal authority up to the regional authority, accepted this proposition and the member had the clearance to submit this motion. CHIEF MABANDLA: Can you prove that? MR MBANGA : I would therefore like the hon member to withdraw this part of his address. MR NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman, I am not prepared to withdraw my remarks. (Laughter) I will give reasons for withdrawing. CHAIRMAN : Unless you have authentic facts and information that this is not the position, you will have to withdraw. MR NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman, even now these hon members do not say they held meetings with the people, but what they tell the House is that they went to the tribal authorities and then to the regional auhority. CHAIRMAN: Order, hon member. MR NKOSIYANE : That is what these people say. CHAIRMAN: If you have no facts to dispute the statement that they have consulted the people you will have to withdraw your remarks. MR NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman, I am going to say I withdraw because you say I must do the will of 182.
the people, but they themselves said they went to the tribal and regional authorities. CHAIRMAN : The members for Fingoland say they state or assert as a matter of fact - that they have consulted the people. If you can dispute that you may carry on but if you cannot dispute that you will have to withdraw your statement. MR NKOSIYANE : I therefore withdraw, Mr Chairman. My aim is this, that because I have been sent by the people of Tembuland I cannot support this, particuof the chiefs in this country. We have not been told larly as I know this is going to do away with the rights of any complaint of the way we live in this territory. You should bear in mind that the land was previously surveyed, but subsequently fencing was introduced and the people were being removed from the residential areas which they formerly occupied. Now if we accept what has been brought in here, at a future date another Government will come into power and remove every. thing that we had agreed to. What is being suggested there we are not prepared to do, and therefore we are not prepared to accept such a motion. We should be making ourselves Judases and then we will find our-. selves in the position of denying that we had accepted this thing until we are reminded by a cock's crow in the early dawn. (Laughter) We have come here to represent the people and we should see to it that anything that is being introduced should not be destructive to the community we represent. What we except when we get independence is that those who are rich will be able to make money and people who are prepared to take up trading will be able to trade as they like. It will not be right, therefore, to take this land and sell it and after it has been bought another Government comes and takes away the land from those who have bought it. In fine, Mr Chairman , I do not even want to see this motion. It should be taken and thrown away. (Laughter) The debate was adjourned.
They cannot sell these buildings; they cannot sell the houses built on these lands to the best advantage. They cannot benefit to the full on these improvements and some of these improvements are put up at great expense. If for any reason one has to leave his home he is given just three months in which to dispose of his improvements and the man to whom he wishes to sell his improvements must be approved by the chief or headman of the area - and the chief consideration is not always the value of the property. The headman or chief has other considerations. One does not necessarly have to sell to the highest bidder, and so, hon members, we observe that this insecure position does not always conduce to improvement. There is also another aspect to this matter and the hon member for Butterworth referred us to it yesterday - the revenue side of it. Now, this particular source of revenue has hardly been tapped. Take the number of residential kraals in a particular administrative area and place a value upon each. I did not particularly like the value placed on such properties by the hon member for Butterworth. If we look back on history, the white settlers were merely granted ownership of their land. Now, we need not do that in the Transkei, but even a valuation of R10 per kraal site would go far. In addition to that, take the valuation of the arable allotments and give the same valuation. That goes far towards raising the financial position of the region of Fingoland, and to these properties taxes are invariably attached. Now, get everybody involved in the scheme brought forward by the hon member for Butterworth. The chief of the area could serve as Registrar of Deeds of his particular area, and that means additional income to him and that improves the stipend that he presently gets, which is very low. Take the headman of the administrative area in question. He could serve as Assistant Registrar and his stipend would further be improved, and so it is not only the man who holds freehold title to his land who benefits - it is the headman, it is the chief. Of course, it is true that it is not all our people who are schooled in matters of land and land dealings, and for a long time the Government of the Transkei, the region of Fingoland will have to guard the interests of the Fingo people. There are always unscrupulous land dealers, so that the Government must see that the people of Fingoland are protected against such people. They must know to what extent each property is mortgaged because the region of Fingoland and the Government would soon find themselves faced with the problem of landless people - people who disposed of their land unwisely. But, Mr Chairman, this in no way means that the progressive man who appreciates the value of freehold land should be held back by this consideration. The number of people who appreciate the value of freehold titles is increasing. Those who are happy with occupational certificates, by all means let them hold on to that way of acquiring land. With freehold titles there is also the question of surveying the land. This has been made easy for the region of Fingoland. My information is that the whole area is completely surveyed. Rehabilitation also has been seen to so that the expense that would normally go with survey work has been paid for already. Mr Chairman, I compliment the region of Fingoland for this noble thought. Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.
AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the Introduction of a Freehold Land Tenure System in Fingoland Region was rsumed. MR R. S. MADIKIZELA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I rise to speak in support of this motion. The hon member for Butterworth, the mover of this motion, informed this House yesterday that this motion had the blessings of the Regional Authority of Fingoland. This House is merely called upon to say grace. I had thought the hon member for Tsolo would perform this function - a function for which he is eminently qualified. This motion is intended specifically for the region of Fingoland and my remarks are relevant only to that extent. We are concerned with development in the Transkei ― concerned in the sense that we are anxious about such development, concerned in the sense that we should see such development take place. The keynote in the Transkei must now be on development on more and more development - and this often means change and a willingness to accept and make such change. The hon Ministers in their policy speeches from time to time have expressed the need and the desirability for change in the Transkei in its system of land tenure. Under the present system of land tenure obtaining in the Transkei development retarded both from the point of view is retarded of the Government and of the occupier of land. Land holdings at the present moment are upon the basis of an occupational certificate - a very unsatisfactory system and a system which is not conducive to development. Let us take a man who is in a position to develop his holding. He wants to put up a decent place for himself in his place of residence. He hesitates. He hesitates because he does not own the land. He is merely a temporary occupier of such land, but regardless of his insecure position the citizens of the Transkei are beginning to improve these holdings. They are beginning to effect improvements of a permanent nature. They are making the best of these places that they regard as their homes, and therefore they are putting up substantial buildings. This feature you observe throughout the Transkei in some places more than in others. Citizens of the Transkei are beginning to grow fruit trees in their gardens, they are beginning to plant ornamental trees, but they are doing this at great risk.
CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I am grateful to be able to speak after the last speaker. I am very glad if the people of Fingoland region have been consulted in this matter because it serves no purpose for only a few people to decide for the majority of the people. This is a most important motion that people should have their own lands. Similarly, when people acquire farms and they have title deed to these farms they in turn can sell. As we have learnt, furniture has also been introduced into these farms. (Laughter) People are just saying something about farms and yet farms have already passed over to some people. What we would like to know is this: We have always requested that all the chiefs should occupy an upper house, but this has been refused. Now, will this motion that the people in Fingoland should have freehold title to their lands not be disastrous to chieftainship? I say this because when a person has complete ownership under title he is in a position to do as he pleases with what is his and he 183.
in relation to the children of these people who will be the issue of holders of allotments under freehold title. Suppose you divorce your wife and marry another woman, would you be in a position to allow the children by the first wife to succeed to this allotment under freehold tenure? Mr Chairman, though this motion is not clear as far as I am concerned, I am prepared to accept it so far as it concerns the Fingo region. The Government just dictates what they desire to put up at these various places. For instance, the Government will say they want to put up factories or industries, plantations, aerodromes and so forth, and no arrangements are made in order to compensate the occupiers of that land sufficiently. These people have spring mattresses. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN: Is the hon member referring to this motion? CHIEF MABANDLA: Definitely, Mr Chairman. It is for this reason that the mover together with the hon member for Umzimkulu are anxious to get this system changed, because these people are tired of the Government doing these things. In fine, I am supporting this motion, but nevertheless I hope the mover will give a satisfactory explanation. Once again I say the Government should pass laws which will clarify what I have mentioned. You chiefs must forget about chieftainship. The land will be taken away from you and the people will rule themselves and do as they please. (Laughter) That is why we say a person should be able to discipline himself. No-one will have any right to enter the site of such a person. It will not be necessary for anyone who enters an administrative area to make a report. Even if that person carries dagga, you as a chief will have no say. Even the police have no right to enter such allotment unless legal permission has been obtained. That is why I say the Government should make provision. The debate was adjourned.
will not allow anybody else to interfere with his rights. The owner will claim that this is his land and his building site and no-one has the right to interfere. I must remind you that you are well aware of the fact that anyone who trespasses into a white man's farm is usually shot, because the white man will say this is his farm and no-one has any right to go in. (Interjections) Now, the chief has the right to enter anyone's premises but if this motion is passed he will first have to telephone the owner of such property lest he be shot for entering without the owner's permission. (Laughter) If the owner of the property has a notice on his gate that there is no admission, will the chiefs be in a position to enter such premises? I intimated that it looks as though chieftainship is going down by degrees until chieftainship will be no more. (Interjections) Should one have land under freehold tenure will that person also be liable to banishment under the regulations? We are aware that Proclamation R400 is still in existence. Will people not still be liable to prosecution under those regulations ? I say this because as far as Proclamation R400 is concerned no-one is consulted as to whether he stays at his home or not. He is just taken out of his place. The mover of the motion did not explain what will happen as far as such regulations are concerned to registered holders of land under the freehold system. What kind of taxation will be expected? This question_requires_explanation. Roads were mentioned in the discussion, but the mover did not include this in his motion. We have had the experience of people putting up a large substantial building_and when rehabilitation is introduced he has to move from that residential site. When the occupiers of such building are removed they are not sufficiently compensated. As this Government cannot compensate people sufficiently even in regard to rondavels, will they be in a position to compensate those who have put up substantial buildings? Mr Chairman, here is another important question in regard to this matter. If a man has a building on his site and is the holder of a title deed and he decides to sell his property, what will the position be if he sells it to a thief, to a murderer or any such lawbreaker? (Interjections) When a newcomer arrives in a certain administrative area one knows what procedure has to be followed. I am not referring now to a municipal location. The first necessity is to find out where this man comes from and also to find out about his character. The correct person to give information about his character is the chief of the place where this man comes from, because he will know whether this man is a murderer like one Kwinana who murdered the Madyibis. Sometimes a person is allowed to go into the location simply because he has money. That is why I require more explicit information, because the motion does not give this information. As I have already stated, no-one can come into any administrative area to reside simply because he met somebody who owned an allotment under freehold title. How would you regard the question of someone moving into your location with a lorryload of his household goods and furniture to occupy an allotment without having first consulted you as chief of that locality? Further, is there any discrimination as to the colour of a person who would be entitled to occupy a site under freehold when that site is sold by the owner?
ANNOUNCEMENT CHAIRMAN: Hon members of the House, the hon the Minister of Health has an important announcement to make. M/HEALTH : Mr Chairman and hon members, I thank you for giving me time to read out this statement in connection with a typhoid epidemic which has broken out in the Clarkebury Institution in the Engcobo district. To date 215 cases and suspects have been treated. The outbreak has been contained and is being limited to this institution only. All patients are being treated by the staff of All Saints' Hospital. I may also mention that a team from my department are immunizing all scholars and residents from surrounding villages and that attempts are being made to trace a number of scholars who have not returned to the institution after the Easter holidays. All magistrates, district surgeons and hospitals will be requested to assist in tracing the whereabouts of such students so that it may be ascertained whether or not they are suffering from typhoid. The sewerage system at the Clarkebury Institution was found to be functioning poorly and was in a most unsanitary condition. The water supply which was being chlorinated was found to be contaminated with a great deal of débris. It was found that there were old shoes, bottles, horns and what have you thrown in. Steps, however, are being taken to have this situation rectified immediately and in the interim an alternative supply of drinking water has been made available to the hostels. An appeal is made to all medical practitioners in and in the vicinity of the Transkei to admit all typhoid suspects to the hospital in the district and to notify the magistrate of the district concerned of the existence of such cases. The magistrates are accordingly equested to advise the department immediately of any uch cases. Parents are assured that all measures are being taken to prevent a further spread of the infection. The hostels of this institution have been isolated and no mixing between day scholars and hostel students is permitted. No hostel students are permitted to leave the institution until the outbreak has been eliminated. It is expected that the situation will have returned to normal by next week. Thank you, Mr Chairman.
MR H. PAMLA: But you favour the white people CHIEF MABANDLA: The hon member for Umzi. mkulu says I favour the white people. He is now putting me into difficulty because we have heard we are now going to have a nonracial policy. I say the trouble with them is an inferiority complex. They do not like to sit next to a white person. CHAIRMAN : The hon member is just touching on the fringes of the motion. He is not speaking to the motion. CHIEF MABANDLA: Mr Chairman, I will continue trying to expatiate on this motion. I have already said I support the motion but I wish these matters I have raised to be fully explained to me. I want this explanation to begin with this area from Umzimkulu to Qaukeni, because the hon member for Umzimkulu, Mr Pamla, stated that anyone who did not support this motion would be a man of low mentality. Mr Chairman, I will not be very lengthy but I want an explanation made in connection with Proclamation R400
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INTRODUCTION OF FREEHOLD SYSTEM OF LAND TENURE:
sation of R30. I am sure even though he is opposed to this idea, the idea will appeal to him very much in future. I support the motion , Mr Chairman . These titles will be of service to us in paying our debts. (Laughter) We have not enough money and I support this motion which has been introduced by the hon member for Butterworth. MR W. Z. LUFEFENI : Mr Chairman and hon members, I am not going to be lengthy in supporting this motion. I do not intend that the sun should go down while I am still labouring this question. It must be known that when the Fingoes have come to a certain decision in any matter they have then done so. These people acquired that area and it was called Fingoland because of the manner in which they acquired that land . As these Fingoes are putting themselves into that position we are going to support their motion. Even if those Fingoes came to us and said they want a paramount chief we would support their request. We must support this motion so that they will remain in Fingoland within their freehold land tenure system. I do not know whether I am going to follow best the old method, because they are still getting married and increasing. I say this because if that whole area has been surveyed and all those people are title holders their issue will have no land. Many hon members have spoken and included the whole of the Transkei in their addresses, and yet it is a local matter. Let us support this motion and come to an end of this debate. (Laughter)
FINGOLAND REGION The debate was resumed . CHIEF G. W. NKWENKWEZI : Mr Chairman and hon members, I am very pleased to be able to speak after the hon members of the Opposition have spoken and supported this motion, especially the hon the Leader of the Opposition. Present conditions suggest that we should abandon the old and adopt modern methods. The hon the Leader of the Opposition is one of the Fingoes and that is why he supports this motion. (Laughter) Fortunately, Fingoland was one of the first areas to accept rehabilitation measures. I hope we shall be the first also to obtain title deeds. Last year there was a discussion on mission farms and we claimed that the mission grounds should be demarcated so that people should be able to acquire plots. The reply received was that these grounds were Crown lands. The chiefs fear that the people might be insubordinate because of these title deeds. People who own title deeds are most respectful to the chief and their respect is more manifest than the respect of a man who has nothing. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. CHIEF NKWENKWEZI : There was a royal wedding and people with title deeds attended that wedding. If people think that those with title deels will not respect the chiefs, that belief is most unfounded. I do not quite understand what the hon Chief Mabandla was saying. He said he was supporting the motion but in actual fact he was opposing it. He just argues about everything. People who have visited the area of Fingoland and those people who are near by realise how substantial some of the buildings are in that area. Now when people have to be moved to make room for dams the compensation is as low as R30, whereas if a road has to pass through a property with title deed the compensation would be much higher than R30. I will give the example of my chief from Qumanco. A dam has been built on the Tsomo River and the Italians who are responsible for that dam just go into one's hut and place beacons right in the hut. The occupier is bound to remove himself. The person who has spent a lot of money in building that place will get as low as R16 in compensation. I am sure the value of a rondavel today is more than R16. If it were a building with title deed you would be able to state that fact. I have consulted the people of Tsomo on this matter and I started with the inhabitants individually and serverally until we got to the regional authority. (Interjections) Mr Chairman, people are interfering with me.
MR M. E. DEKEDA: Mr Chairman and hon members, this motion results from the feeling of the people in Fingoland. It is very fortunate that we are expressing the voice of the people, which is the voice of God. I want to point out a few things which have been omitted in this discussion. All the land in Fingoland was surveyed from 1901 to 1907. A few men who had been across the Kei River did know that there was something like title to land. They then requested the surveyors in 1907 to give them freehold tenure. I am not talking out of my mind when I say there are men in Fingoland today who hold freehold title in the rural not in town. I stay in the rural areas and a areas certain Mr Ntisana has freehold title. He pays an annual amount of R17 for that land. I do not pay anything for my kraal site per annum, but he pays 25c per annum. I do not want to go back and explain the advantages we will derive from those people who have these freehold title rights, because they have been fully explained by the mover of the motion and the explanation given by the hon the Leader of the Opposition was enough for any thinking man to understand that this is the best system to have. May I say we have in Nqamakwe a certain Dr Pupuma who has built a house worth R40,000 in the rural area. The unfortunate part in this case is that that house cannot be insured because Dr Pupuma does not own the land on which the house was built. CHAIRMAN: The hon chiefs from Cofimvaba and the chief from Tsomo have a persistent conference in that corner. I will send one of them out immediately. I pray them to be silent. MR DEKEDA: Whilst talking about Dr Pupuma I want to cite the case of Mr Cengimbo who holds freehold title in the town of Nqamakwe. His house is worth R10 000. You will notice that Mr Cengimbo's house is worth not even half of Dr Pupuma's house. May I repeat the explanation which was given here on the question of security so that when you want to develop the title of your property can be used as security. This question was fully explained by the hon the Leader of the Opposition. Many people laughed when one speaker said he would be able to offer his title as security if he wanted to buy a car. May I tell hon members that the owners of the factories which are being built outside Umtata now have been given freehold title to the ground on which these factories are being built and then they go to building societies to raise a loan on the security of their title deeds. After the motivation given by the mover and the explanation by the hon the Leader of the Opposition of the business of being advanced money to develop I thought everyone would stand up and say "Hurrah!". I am sorry that some of our hon chiefs today are entertaining fears about the people acquiring title, because I am
CHAIRMAN : Order, please, and there should be no reading of newspapers. CHIEF NKWENKWEZI : I think the hon members appreciate the question of people having title deeds. They are still interfering with me. CHAIRMAN : Hon chiefs from Cofimvaba, please behave . CHIEF NKWENKWEZI : Land is something the African values. If you have no land you have nothing. People with no lands will not be listened to by the people. Even those who have sites and land are there only temporarily, because they are there under certificate of occupation. The Fingoes have instructed me to represent them precisely in matters of this kind. They do not want to remain in buildings and on sites which are insecure of tenure. Speakers have already hinted that the rates paid there will increase the revenue of the area. I am certain that when we get these title deeds even the Tembus and the Pondos will follow suit. (Interjections) MEMBERS: No. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. CHIEF NKWENKWEŻI : I do not see what people fear in this motion. I am sure even hon members here would like to stand up and say: Look , this is my kraal - instead of admitting he holds it only on certificate of occupation. The hon Mr Mgudlwa was applying for a road through a certain place and even the hon Chief Kaulele does not know whether the road will cut through his kraal. (Laughter) After the road has gone right through his fine building he is just given compen185 .
nouncer. I can recall very vividly that when I moved the motion I laid special emphasis on the fact that this motion seeks to revolutionize agriculture and to attempt purposefully to create a middle class. I went further to say something about rates and taxes after and when freehold rights had been extended. I put up figures to illustrate my facts, and though they did not agree very well with the figures mentioned by the hon member for Ngqeleni I do not quarrel with his view. In fact. he goes on to emphasize the importance of free-holding so that even at a low price of R10 a site money would still be made. Our Press and the Bantu Radio reporter went only as far as land ownership, yet land ownership is not an end in itself. We regard it as a means to an end and I feel if this had been published some of the remarks by the hon members here would not have been made. I take it also that Press reports and radio announcements are intended for general consumption and I am quite aware that people at home are listening very attentively to hear what has been said about this motion. We draw consolation from the fact that Hansard has recorded these remarks, though a majority by far will not be able to read Hansard. My special thanks to the hon the Leader of the Opposition for the exposition of facts which went to support this motion. Some of the remarks reveal that we have come to a point where we can regard our selves as mature in matters economic, agricultural, ethical, etc. We went on to consider that the gap which exists between our peasantry and the civil servants is one which must be filled. Hon members who contributed to the discussion on this motion today revealed that that they belong to the class we would like to have, but, in the words of the hon the Leader of the Opposition, it is not easy to break the strings of tradition and the hard shell of conservatism, therefore if any of the hon members voiced opposing ideas to this motion we do not blame them. Time is on our side for them to absorb and appreciate the permanent results of free land-holding. Special interest was evoked from the hon members by this motion. In my short experience I have never before known hon members paying such close attention to the motion and not to one another, and without stealing a doze, so we can hope that with the blessing of this House for this motion there will emerge this availability of the means to emancipate our people from this poverty. The hon member for Umzimkulu gave us concrete examples of places where freehold land ownership is already in operation and after his speech all fears were dispelled. We have heard other members say that free landowners are the most respectful people to their chiefs. Why some few hon members doubted the fact that the mandate had been given by the Regional Authority of Fingoland was surprising. Fingoland region, like any other, is composed of private members and chiefs, and if any member of any rank will say anything that could be interpreted to regard our chiefs as inferior to any other is pure contempt. Personally, I am under no obligation to extend respect to any hon member who extends no respect to my chief. I have seen service at a senior level in almost all the 28 districts of the Transkei and I have worked in all the regions of the existing paramount chiefs who are present in this House today. Each time I got to one of these areas, no sooner had I got there than I was made one of the closest councillors of that chief. I also appreciate the contribution which came from Rev Vika. Now, when he addressed us I recalled what the Nationalist Government of the Republic owed to the services of the reverend gentleman, Dr Malan. We have reason to respect and accept the recommendations of a gentleman like that. I notice that the hon member for Qumbu mentioned the three different types of land-holding and he displayed concern over these and suggested a uniform type of land-holding. This I appreciate. If the hon member for Mqanduli will regard a motion of this kind as a second Nongqause, I refuse to consent to the introduction of such schooling on matters economical. MR P. N. NKOSIYANE : On a point of order, Mr Chairman .... CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Take your seat. MR MBANGA: Mr Chairman, I ask this House to proceed as though nothing had happened. I am also thankful for the blessing which came from the hon member for Ngqeleni. He touched upon features pertain-
going to be very practical. We have in Butterworth a number of our people who own big buildings and shops in town with freehold rights. Many of them , such as Mr Mayekiso , Mr Mbanga, Mr Mama (the interpreter), Mr Gushman and others, are very well known to you. These people are the most trusted people and they are being honoured by our chief, Chief Zulu. May I tell you what happens when hon the Chief Minister or a Cabinet Minister or one of our dignitaries from Butterworth goes to visit Butterworth. A note is written and Chief Zulu knows to whom he will go. He will go to Mr Mayekiso who is one of the big bosses in Butterworth, and if Chief Zulu forgets about it he will take his car, go to the venue where Chief Zulu was supposed to meet them, with everything in readiness. Last year I was present at the Great Place when the hon the Paramount Chief of Tembuland, Paramount Chief Dalindyebo, was getting married. Mr Victor Nkula, who owns freehold property in Ncambedlana, transported three-legged pots to cook meat and food for the people there. This is proof of what the hon member for Umzimkulu said that our people honour our chiefs whether we stay in houses with freehold tenure or not. Since the days of the Bunga our dear Paramount Chief Botha Sigcau has been staying with Victor Nkula - a man who lives in town and a man who has no connection with rural activities. Why? There are people who belong, as they say, to the rural areas who have big houses round about Umtata, but he does not go there. We are trying to show the House that this fear they are entertaining - the fear that these people will drift away from chieftainship - does not exist. What are you going to do with a poor man who does not wish to pay allegiance to the chief? He has no sheep or cattle or anything. What are you going to do if he does not want to pay allegiance? Every man who owns land or has something is proud when he is visited by a great man. It has become traditional in Fingoland that when the hon the Chief Minister and other important visitors come to Butterworth we have Mr Nkukwana as Master of Ceremonies a man who stays in town. The first man to buy land in Nqamakwe is Mr Maqubalo who is the traditional Master of Ceremonies when any ceremonies are held. Mr Chairman , many of the things I wanted to say have been said and I do not want to repeat what has been said. The Regional Authority of Fingoland has been able to find out that they have a lot of money in store amongst our people. A lot, I believe, is kept by the people. We now pay R1,50 to the Government for the land we are ploughing, but the land does not belong to us. As a matter of fact, we do not know what the Government is doing with that money, but with this system of land tenure the tribal authority and the regional authority will be able to count how much has been collected annually from the money paid by the people who have freehold rights for their buildings . We shall be able to lend money to the people who own property on the security of that land. We shall be able to buy cars for all our chiefs (Laughter) and we shall be able to increase the salaries of our dipping supervisors. All these things are embodied in the land tenure system. That is what people are doing in town. Mr Chairman and hon members, allow man. freehold tenure to go on. Thank you, Mr ChairCHAIRMAN: Hon members, I am of the feeling that this motion has been thoroughly canvassed, so I feel we can call upon the mover to reply. MR W. S. MBANGA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I have been pleasantly surprised in this House by the fact that all hon members for the first time came to regard a motion of this nature as a non-political one without any party-political overtones today. This House has an agreement that when matters pertaining to education are discused then party-political affiliations should be dropped. This same House has spontaneously come to an agreement that when land matters are being considered then party affiliations should be relegated to the background. MR K. M. GUZAÑA : Except gift farms, of course. MR MBANGA: With due respect to the interjection by the hon the Leader of the Opposition, I shall confine myself to the motion. There has been, however, just one disappointing feature about this whole motion.. It is the report in the Bantu Press and by the radio an186.
effect: Where shall the people live if their own land is finished? Where will they increase to? This reminded me of the position in other older countries like the United States of America and Europe. There they have an area for houses and big tracts of land for ranches. There they have come to adopt a scheme where they erect skyscrapers to such a height that the highest consists of about 100 storeys. Mr Chairman, I shall conclude by thanking this House whole-heartedly for its contribution and support and for taking such a keen interest in the subject and, as with education, regarding it as above party politics. Question put and motion carried unanimously. CHAIRMAN : Hon members of the House, I implore this House to be disciplined in accordance with the rules of this House. Attention should be more to the business of the House than the gossip which takes place in the corners of this House and attention should be more to the business of the House than the reading of newspapers when members have every opportunity to read newspapers in their places of abode. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 28 April 1976.
ing to freehold title, features of permanency, and he brought up what I regard as a very important point that of regarding our chiefs as registrars of deeds. In fact, after the hon member for Tsomo had spoken I was convinced that it was a good thing that the hon member for Ngqeleni had spoken before him. He had supplied all the answers to the question raised by the hon member for Tsolo. This hon member for Tsolo should not have raised the question of rates and taxes and I am sorry the Radio Bantu last night did not facilitate conditions for him to have listened, because it is now clear that some of us here are present but are not following the trend of the discussion. When he asked about what should be done about banned persons, Promlacation R400, rates and taxes and all those things he must have confused himself to such an extent that he forgot in those places where freehold tenure is in operation people have laws which govern them. He asked where people will get permission to sell these properties and he also mentioned someone who is persona non grata being introduced to an area. There are places all over where freehold tenure is the only system of tenure. My motion is confined to the region of Fingoland but no sooner had an hon member stood up to debate than he projected his thinking to the rest of the country. I shall not discuss the significance of that trend here and now, Mr Chairman. One other fact that should be straightened out here is that all the people in Fingoland are not Fingoes. You will be surprised to know that in our courts, high and low, we have the Fakus, we have the Pondomisis, we have the Tembus, we have everybody. We have gone past the stage of tribal considerations.
WEDNESDAY, 28 APRIL 1976
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS
CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon members, the recess committee which was appointed by this House to consider, amongst other things, the drafting of the Transkeian Constitution has completed its work and will table its report in the form of a draft bill before this House on Monday morning. That will necessitate members of the committee sitting on the side where the hon Ministers are sitting and the Whips will place other members in the seats vacated by members of the recess committee. Mr Chairman and hon members, at 2.15 on Monday afternoon the Minister of Finance will deliver his budget speech. Thank you, Mr Chairman.
MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR MBANGA: And the degree to which intermarriage has taken place makes us not talk about clans in Fingoland. Now, back to the positive side of this motion. If this House, as it seems to have done, gives us its blessing with this motion I dare say it does not demand a special stretch of imagination to realise how much our doors will have been opened to money. The Central Government with the seat at Umtata will benefit almost to the same extent as the local region of Fingoland, in spite of the fact that the rest of the Transkei shall not have followed suit. We shall possess such fixed assets in the form of freehold that taxes flowing to this capital will be worked out in hundreds of thousands. There was an interjection behind me to the effect that I have no cattle. I talk now as a qualified agricultural man. In the Fingoland region the fewer stock we keep are far more valuable than the many cattle in other regions. (Laughter) To raise the value of a beast in our area you would have to sell about 50 of your cattle. (Laughter) The hon member for Nqamakwe followed up and mentioned one particular example of a house worth R40 000 built on land which does not belong to the house owner, and it is one of very many houses in that region. Something should be done about that so that these people should be able to raise capital on the security of their property. The motion does not confine itself to the residential sites only. It seeks to cover as well the ploughing plots, and ploughing plots being on the average much than residential sites they should appreciate much more in value than the latter. We also have in mind the properties built in our black townships. If all the rent that is paid , for example, by the 30 000 people in the Butterworth location is taken into account you can see at once what will happen when they own the houses. This is the money we want to exploit by a system of land tenure that will entitle us to take it up. There are factories coming up all over this country. They are owned and manned by white people alone at this stage and the aim is to find people amongst ourselves to take shares in these factories so that they become shareholders and actually own the factories. How do we hope to have our people taking up these shares if we do not create a class which will be amenable to this kind of project? Shall we go on indefinitely with cap in hand to our Government and ask them for subsidies to run our dipping tanks and other services when all the time the money is there? All we pray is that recognition should be given to us to realise where our money lies. I recall a remark which came from that corner and I am sorry the hon member for Engcobo is absent in the House. It was to this
NOTICES OF BILLS M/ROADS AND WORKS : Mr Chairman and hon members, I beg to give notice that on 29 April 1976 I propose to move the first reading of a bill amending the Transkei Road Traffic Act 1967. M/FINANCE : Mr Chairman and hon members, as Minister of Finance I beg to give notice that on Thursday, 29 April 1976 I propose to move the first reading of a bill to apply a sum not exceeding R135 799 000 towards the service of the Transkei for the financial year ending on the 31st day of March 1977.
SUGGESTED AMENDMENT OF TRANSKEI AUTHORITIES ACT MR P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman and hon members, right from the beginning I will appeal to this House to give me a hearing and to support this motion, because it is a very good one, and I will then move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Authorities Act (Act No. 4 of 1965) be amended by repealing paragraph (d) of section 12, and the whole of section 15, and these provisions be taken over by the Department of Agriculture and Forestry." MR K. G. NOTA: Where is the Act? MR NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman, I will explain that this motion seeks to have all the dipping staff taken over by the Department of Agriculture and Forestry. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Is there a seconder to the motion? MR A. D. JOYI: I second, Mr Chairman. MR NKOSIYANE : My motion seeks to have all the dipping staff placed under the Department of Agriculture. I have brought this motion because those people approached me with the request that they be placed under this department, MR C. DIKO : Where is the Act? I want to know.
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GOVT MEMBERS: Stick to the motion. MR NKOSIYANE: Now I am talking about the dipping staff and I believe I am giving a full explanation to show that they are not being paid sufficiently. I must touch on the matter of roads because when they go to these dipping tanks they have to go by road. When the people approached me in connection with this matter I decided I should bring the whole affair to this House. It is a fact that everything goes according to certain regulations, but that does not stop people making requests that those regulations be amended. Everything was created by the Almighty and the people also had the right to make use of that creation. I represent the people here and if they have any difficulties it is my duty to bring these to the attention of the House so that relief might be given to those people. My motion therefore seeks to have the dipping staff removed from the jurisdiction of the regional authorities and paid by the Department of Agriculture. I am aware that the dipping staff is under the regional authority but these authorities have no funds. (Interjections) Don't tell me, hon member, that you have funds. Why don't you pay the dipping staff, then, if you have funds? Is it because you are well off and that you don't take any interest in the people who have no money? Everyone wants to be paid, but they should also be entitled to a pension. Even if you pay anyone an increament, if provision is not made for a pension that is all wasted. When I am making this request to the Government it is because I want people to be treated as human beings. They should also be paid and be entitled to a pension. A person who is not paid enough by the Government cannot be trusted and he also has no security. I must tell you, hon Chief Zulu, because you are a head of a region, but now you don't pay people who work under you. If you have subjects under you, you have to consider them and find out how they are making a living. You know that all commodities are so dear today. The people I am talking about are in difficulties. MR C. DIKO: What does the Act say? Have you read it?
MR NKOSIYANE: This is the Transkei Authorities Act, No. 4 of 1965. MR DIKO: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, I want to know what this man is talking about. MR NKOSIYANE : My motion requests that Act No. 4 of 1965 should be amended, and what I require is that all the dipping staff should be made responsible to the Department of Agriculture and it should be that department which should be responsible for the payment of these staff members. MR DIKO: Does the Act say they must not be paid? MR NKOSIYANE: In fact, this department has sent all the people under it to go and work on dipping operations. These people dip our stock and yet our stock fell under the Department of Agriculture. I therefore wish that we should not be made responsible for the payment of the salaries of this staff but that this staff should be paid directly by the department. MR M. E. DEKEDA: Mr Chairman , on a point of order, we wish to sympathize with this hon member if he is discussing the increase in wages of certain employees, but before we can be of any assistance to this hon member he should explain to us exactly what is contained in these sections under Act 4 of 1965. MR NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman, you all know the provisions of those sections and you know whence this motion comes. (Laughter) You know what I am now saying and you know the aims of the motion. It is because of that Act that the Department of Agriculture did not pay people, but that payment of those officers was placed on the shoulders of the regions. The motion aims at removing these officers from the regional authorities and that they should now be paid direct by the department. MR C. DIKO : Who pays them now? MR NKOSIYANE : They must not be paid by the regional authority because that is the creation of the people and the regions have no funds. All the regions in the Transkei are included in this Act. I believe they all know that the dipping staff is not well paid and that is why I have brought this motion. We all know that they receive their salaries from the proceeds of the stock rate. It is for that reason that I place this request that these people should be paid by the Government. People today are faced with heavy taxation and they therefore cannot afford to pay the salaries of the dipping staff. You will realise that these dipping foremen do a lot of heavy work and therefore they should be paid from the department which has money. You also realise they are meeting a number of difficulties. It must be borne in mind that this department is the one which makes use of the dipping staff. The dipping supervisors were removed and their place was taken by officers from the department. Those people who count stock are from the Department of Agriculture. Everyone who works with livestock belongs to the Department of Agriculture. It is for that reason that I request this depart to take over whole staff, because the dipping staff works directly under this department. I know that in those inland areas people do not care for dipping but we in the coastal regions are worried by ticks and we therefore regard dipping operations as of great importance. Redwater fever has been widespread during this rainy season and dipping materials are very expensive, but at the same time the dipping rates have been raised. At first we had to pay 10c for dipping and now there has been an increase up to 50c per beast. People have a great many commitments to meet, such as school fees, the building of clinics and other matters, and people are required to pay a lot of money although there is no work for them. There are not enough firms to give people employment and those there are paid insufficient wages because there are no trade unions. If anyone is fired from his job no-one will do anything for him because this Government has made no provision to protect the labour. People find it difficult to pay taxes as well as to buy dipping materials, and yet they are expected to pay the salaries of the dipping staff. If you observe things you will find that our regions have no funds. You will also note that even our roads have become so eroded and damaged because the regions have no funds. There are roads which are supposed to be attended to by the regions.
MR NKOSIYANE: I have told you about the Act. MR DIKO : How does it affect these people? You are wasting time by amending the Act. Why don't you ask for the money? MR NKOSIYANE : You are wasting time. You understand what I am saying. You have read the motion. CHAIRMAN: Hon member, address the Chair, please. MR NKOSIYANE : My motion is clear. It is making a request on behalf of the dipping staff, that they should be placed under the Department of Agriculture so that they will be well paid and will be entitled to a pension. In fine I move as stated and before I sit down I know that all the regions .... MR DIKO: Don't sit down before you tell us what this is about. Have you read the Act? MR NKOSIYANE: I say this is a very good motion because it deals with our own people. I have been asked by the people and therefore I ask all the hon members of the different regional authorities who are in this House to support the motion. (Interjections) The Regional Authority of Mqanduli is Dalindyebo .. MR M. E. DEKEDA: On a point of order, Mr Chairman MR NKOSIYANE : I am speaking today and I say this must be done today and whenever I say anything in this House I am referring it to this Assembly. MR DEKEDA: Mr Chairman, when we discuss an increase in wages we are all in agreement, but the hon member suggests an amendment to Act No 4 of 1965. We would like an explanation from the hon member so that we will be in a position to support him. MR NKOSIYANE : These sections should be thrown out. You have read the Act and this motion Ideals with those sections . I have made it clear that the motion seeks to place all the dipping staff under the Department of Agriculture so that they will be paid sufficiently . MR M. P. LUDIDI : Mr Chairman , I rise to move an amendment to the motion by the hon members. CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA: As usual. MR LUDIDI : As usual, of course. The amendment is to insert the word "not" between the words "be" and
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complaint arises as to the attitude and the rôle played by the department itself with regard to dipping services. However, if you consider all these things, Mr Chairman, and give a summary, the motion itself is not really a solution to the problem because it merely scratches at the surface of the problem. It is very important that we should consider the question of powers, fuctions and duties, particularly at this stage of our constitutional development. We have to remember that the structure of the Transkeian Government that is, the central Government at the top, the regional authorities and the tribal authorites can be likened to a tree. You have the leaves and the branches at the top, the trunk of the tree and then the roots. Then in terms of my parallel (I don't know whether it is relevant to this) the regional authorities and tribal authorities may be likened to the roots and the trunk of this tree. In other words, the local authorities are the roots whereby this tree, which is the Government, is firm in the soil. If the Government is weak at the level of local authorities that Government will not be efficient in many of its activities and one of the reasons is simply because the Government is vested with all the powers and functions and duties. To create a very efficient Government we have to decentralize powers, duties and functions. In this way not only the people who are at the top in central administration are involved in the government of the country, but the voters themselves become actively involved in the administration of their country by giving them those powers which are of a local nature. Here the regional authorities are our local authorities and they are responsible for these matters, as I have said, which are of a local nature those things which affect that particular region alone. Let us consider very thoroughly this question of dipping services. The dipping services are determined by environmental factors or conditions which apply not to all the regions in the Transkei. Cattle diseases in Maluti, for instance, are not the same as the cattle diseases you get in the coastal areas. This serves to emphasize the nature of the problem, so that the dipping problems of Dalindyebo region are not the same as the problems in Maluti. Now a question arises, if we centralize the dipping responsibility and place it with the central Government, how is the Government going to achieve uniformity when dealing with these problems? Well, I know the Government can do it, but will involve a lot of difficulties, financial and otherwise. Again, Mr Chairman, let us consider the question of money -the money that is involved. If the dipping services are the responsibility of the central Government, which, of course , means the central Government will now be responsible for the salaries of the dipping foremen, assuming that the regional authorities do not have enough money to pay the dipping foremen, this implies that the Government will have to find money to create a fund which will allow for enough salaries for the dipping foremen. Now, the source of revenue in the central Government is mainly taxes, so let us consider the possibility of the Government's using the taxes to finance dipping services. Will this be a wise move by the Government where the Government uses the taxes of the people to cater for the welfare of people who rear cattle? Mr Chairman , even if at home I have cattle I do not imagine catering for the interests of the cattle owner when I do not have cattle. In the long run we will have a complaint from the electorate because, to begin with, it is wrong to use the taxes of the people to finance services which affect matters concerning those people who own cattle. In fact, in the end it may be necessary for the Government to raise the taxes of the people. Now, I said this is just an assumption that the regional authorities have not enough money. I heard the hon member for Mqanduli stating very clearly that the regional authorities have not got money, but as far as I am concerned he was making a sweeping statement. I have before me the report of the Controller and Auditor-General. This is a statement in respect of dipping accounts for all the regions. Now, you will find in the column headed "Balances with effect from 31 March 1975" all the moneys left by the regional authorities from the previous financial year. I do not know whether the members of the sessional committee know, but I know that there is not a single district in the whole of the Transkei which does not have a balance left over. Look at the balance of Bizana, for instance - R15 328;
"amended"; and secondly, by deleting all the words after "15" and substituting therefor the following words: "without a fully motivated initiative of the regional authorities in which the powers, functions and duties concerned vest." MR C. DIKO : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, we cannot do justice to this motion in spite of the amendment unless the Secretaries of this department are here. They are the cause of all this hullaballoo, so I advise the House that the Secretaries should be here. MR LUDIDI : So, Mr Chairman, the motion as amended MR DIKO: Don't continue until the Secretaries are here. M/AGRICULTURE : Mr Chairman, in connection with the request by the hon member for Tabankulu I wish to inform the House that the Secretaries of the department were not informed that this motion would be on and that their presence would be required. Further, Mr Chairman, the Secretaries do not form part of the House. They are merely the staff of the department. They could only listen and could not say anything, so that their presence is absolutely unnecessary to the discussion of this motion. MR LUDIDI : So the motion as amended, Mr Chairman, would read:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Authorities Act, Act No 4 of 1965, be not amended by repealing paragraph (d) of section 12 and the whole of section 15 without a fully motivated initiative of the regional authorities in which the powers, functions and duties concerned vest." MR K. G. NOTA : I second the amendment. MR LUDIDI: Mr Chairman, according to my own interpretation the motion seeks that the responsibility for the dipping services should vest in the central Government. When we consider the sections affected by the motion this becomes very clear. Paragraph 12(d) reads as follows :- "A regional authority shall, subject to the provisions of this Act -- (d) provide for the suppression of diseases of cattle by the construction, maintenance and operation of dipping tanks and the application of such other measures as it may consider necessary or as may be required by or under any law. " This is clear, Mr Chairman, that the dipping services here are a responsibility of the regional authorities. Then section 15 also deals with stock rate and dipping estimates and subsection 15(3) reads: "A regional authority shall not later than the date mentioned in subsection ( 1 ) submit to the magistrate of the district concerned for transmission to the Minister its estimates of expenditure in respect of the dipping and other services which it proposes to provide or make available in that district during the ensuing financial year in terms of paragraph (d) of subsection (1) of section 12 togehter with the reasons for its decisions as to the amount of the stock rate. " Mr Chairman, this is very clear too. The responsibility of making estimates in respect of dipping services is the sole responsibility of the regional authority. They are the people who are concerned with matters affecting cattle owners or people with kraal sites, and the very members of the regional authories are people who own cattle, some of them, because they were voted to the regional authority or nominated to the regional authority from among the people who are cattle owners. The magistrate here does not play a part except that he is simply a connection between the regional authority and the department. Now, Sir, there is a response from the other corner that the magistrate very often refuses to do this. Well, I notice, Mr Chairman, that this is the complaint of almost all regional authorities. The magistrates have a tendency to stamp their feet too much into matters of the regional authorities, realising the fact that some of the regional authorities are not of a very high standard so as to be able to interpret financial estimates . Well, we have to concede that the magistrate has to come in to assist, but not to interfere or to give instructions to the regional authority. I know that some of the magistrates have a tendency to draft the estimates for the regional authorities and have them already cut and dried and then submit them. They don't want the opinion of the regional authority. This, Mr Chairman, as far as the hon members are concerned , is where the problem lies and of course if I may go further, the 189.
Mount Ayliff R11 312; Engcobo - R10 215; Mqanduli R1 459. Now, the total of these moneys is R199 343,81 , but the salaries of the dipping foremen are very low. The dipping foremen are complaining. Why? There is money. Now, Mr Chairman, this makes it very clear that the fact that the regional authorities do not pay adequate salaries to the dipping foremen does not mean there is no money. Now where lies the problem? As I have said, in the interests of government the problem lies with the magistrates, and this is the feeling of the regional authorities. I am not expressing my own feelings, I am expressing the feelings of the people who are members of the regional authorities. Now that we see where the problem lies I think it is the duty of the people who are affected — that is, the members of the regional authority - to direct their complaints properly to focus their attention on the area of the problem, because I maintain that vesting the responsibility of the dipping services with the central Government is not going to solve the problem to the satisfaction of the people who own cattle. That is why I have moved an amendment to the motion. We need to hit the nail on the head. Above all, Mr Chairman, from reliable sources I learn that the Regional Authority of Dalindyebo is not aware of any complaint in its region to the effect that dipping foremen are complaining and to the effect that the regional authority is unable to deal with its functions properly. MR C. DIKO: Mr Chairman and hon members, I am very sorry that somebody has drafted a motion for the hon member for Mqanduli which was altogether not necessary to this House. Now, when he says section 15 must be repealed altogether I asked him repeatedly what he means by saying that. I wanted to know if he ever read section 15 and he did not answer me, and I want to put him straight now so that when he replies he must know what it means. This section reads: "Notwithstanding the provisions of section 4(3) and subject to the approval of the Minister a regional authority shall, not later than the 1st day of March in each year, levy stock in respect of each district in each regional authority." It goes on explaining this further down. Now, do you mean to say there must be no stock rate? I do not want people to come, because they have been elected by the people, with motions that are altogether irrelevant to the welfare of the people. We need stock rates and we shall maintain stock rates. In fact, the whole process of dipping hinges on the stock rate. Each owner must pay for the dipping of his stock and the dipping facilities must come from the stock rate. So this is most irrelevant and uncalled for. I wanted the Secretary to be in here because the whole trouble about the dipping question started after the Bunga. There was no trouble during the Bunga days but when this Department of Agriculture came, that is when we started having these difficulties. Dipping tanks have broken down .... MR K. M. GUZANA: Come back to the motion. MR DIKO: When you go to the dipping tanks you find all those poles broken and there is no dipping being done. Now, the main complaint from the people who elected the hon member for Mqanduli and all of us here is that the dipping foremen are the least cared for employees, and to bring that home to the Government it is not necessary to amend this section that is already existing. I would not like him to bring a foolish motion like this again in this House. (Laughter) We have to study the motions brought here and they must be reasonable and be of good effect for the welfare of the people. Now, what I want the Hon the Minister of Agriculture to bear in mind is that from the magistrate to the lowest man in his department, the dipping supervisors in all the regions are least cared for. I know the hon Minister is going to attack me (Laughter) but I am going to remind him of a case when I asked one of those doctors, supposed to be a veterinary doctor, to go and inspect my cow which was at the time out of condition, and he said I must carry it to Umtata. (Laughter) Now, that was most irresponsible and those are the people we don't want in the Transkei because the attitude of some of these Secretaries is that of "baasskapism”. A man thinks because he is in that position he is lord of the Transkei. They must realise they are servants and they are in the Transkei to cater for these senior dipping foremen in the districts. They never give them any assistance. The
whole intention as far as they are concerned is definitely to destroy stock in the Transkei. So we want these people, particularly those in the Veterinary Department, to realise that people in the Transkei want stock and want stock improvement and want stock to be cared for. So when we pay these stock rates we don't pay for the sake of paying. We pay for service. Now, have they ever visited our tanks - these bosses who stay in the offices here? (Laughter) No, honestly, sometimes these people are prepared to sell the intrests of the stock owners in the Transkei and the whole blame it is put on the regional authorities. It is nonsense is unfair. The regional authorities, let me tell you, their authority ends the day they say the stock rate must be raised from 20c to 50c, and after that it is finished. They do not know what happens to the money and in fact people outside do not know that the regional authority has anything to do with the dipping of stock, with the payment of the dipping foremen or with anything at the tank, so their authority has been usurped. I say so and repeat it, that their authority has been usurped by these masters who stay in the offices here. Let me tell you that if we are thinking of decentralization of authority, these regional authorities now must be made to know they are the provinces of the Transkei. Now, the hon member for Mqanduli talks of incompetence. That is nonsense! How can he say these regional authorities are incompetent when they have not been trained? The regional authority, like the tribal authority, has not been trained to know they have the status of a province. They have not been trained, but the Government keeps saying: Go to the regional authority - which is nonsense. We do not say that to a man who has not been briefed and educated that his power is so much. As far as I am concerned, regional authorities are tax collectors with no other function. (Laughter) So when is the Transkei Government going to stop this type of administration ? The department always boasts and says they are training the regional authorities here. That is nonsense. The regional authority and the tribal authorities do not know bookkeeping, so the people do not know how to handle these books. (Interjections) This is what I am saying: This motion should not have been put in this way. You should have asked for the raising of the that is all. Now, salaries of the dipping foremen we have complicated the problem by bringing in this foolish man sitting in the office here. (Laughter) Hon members must understand that the whole policy of the white man from the days of Hertzog onwards has been to keep the black man under, under, under; and these officers are here to see to it that we stay under. It is the duty of every veterinary officer to see to it that our stock do not thrive, do not multiply, do not grow bigger as we want. That is their duty. (Laughter) So when we want our lot bettered, hon member for Mqanduli, let us not change this statutory law that is here. We must now, for the first time in the history of the Transkei, educate our regional authorities. They must get rid of magisterial interference. Do you hear? (Laughter) We shall always say you are inefficient, we shall always say you are irresponsible, we shall always say you are foolish, because no authorities stay by a magistrate in his district. When will you take up your duties? It is the duty of the tribal authority to improve things for the people in that tribe. For God's sake let us realise we have a duty to the people and let the region realise it has a duty to the people. Don't always go to the magistrate. Why go to the magistrate when he is a civil servant and is very much lower than the regional authority? So even the taxpayers - I mean the dipping foremen because you are not sent by the taxpayers to move this motion, you are sent by the dipping foreman of Mqanduli, not of Dalindyebo I want you to realise that you are getting my full support. I want dipping foremen to be paid a living salary and to get his lot improved. Now, if you start from Qaukeni region, if you were to ask the hon the Paramount Chief of Qaukeni if he has ever received a complaint from the dipping foremen of Qaukeni he will tell you these people have never lodged their complaint to the regional authorities and they have not done so because this Department of Agriculture - leave alone Forestry (Laughter) has never educated the regional authority that these people are their responsibility, so it is high time they were told. The hon Mini190.
MR C. DIKO : Where do you get that from? The Act says it has these powers. Where do you get advice? CHIEF MABANDLA: Mr Chairman, that hon member is suffering from hysteria. (Laughter) I support the mover of the motion because I believe he is right in wishing to transfer these powers to the Department of Agriculture so that the people are not always directed to the regional authority, which has no power. It has been suggested that the people should pay increased stock rate so as to fight the stock diseases which are so common and so that more efficient dipping materials should be purchased. The cattle are dying now in their thousands, yet the people are paying stock rate. The dipping foremen are so poorly paid, yet the people continue to pay stock rate. I did not think there would be any opposition to this motion, because it is of general interest to the people. There is a tendency that a motion is moved by one side and the other party will just suggest unnecessary amendments. You know that the regional authorities have no money. Whatever money is there is voted by the Central Government to the various districts. The dipping foremen are so badly paid and these people have to send their children to school. CHAIRMAN: The hon member for Ngqeleni is repeatedly distracting the attention of the House by going round with a circular. That is not permissible in this House. CHIEF MABANDLA: School fees are high today and these people have to pay. They pay taxes and have to feed their families. Where are they going to get this money when the regional authorities cannot afford to pay them? The central Government has a habit of always hiding behind such subordinate bodies. It is always said that the Republican Government has a lot of money. Why don't they look for money and then take over the dipping foremen and pay them? I think this is a straightforward motion, Mr Chairman, that the Government departments should take over from the regional authorities. These people are under the Government and you serve under a department, but if you have no hope of a pension what of the future? These people should be taken over by a Government department and not left under the regional authorities. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. CHIEF MABANDLA: The hon member I don't know whether he is a donkey minister .... MR C. DIKO : Are you a member? Answer the question. CHIEF MABANDLA: I don't know why he asks such a question, which shows he is mentally unsound. (Interjections) Mr Chairman, I have now spoken at length but that hon member has been interfering all the time. I say this motion should be allowed to stand as moved by the hon member from Mqanduli. Let us abandon the amendment. This is a national issue. The department has money. Must these widows keep on paying? CHIEF D. D. P. NDAMASE: Mr Chairman and hon members, we sympathize with the mover of the motion but his motion tends to remove the powers of the regional authority. The mover of the amendment placed this matter in a better perspective because he explained that for any government to be effective authority should be decentralized. Now this motion seeks to remove such authority. The mover stated that the dipping foremen are not well paid and we are in sympathy with him in that respect. Nevertheless, there are many regional authorities and if the dipping staff wish to receive an increment they usually refer the request to their respective regional authorities. The mover went on to bring in a number of other complaints in regard to the Department of Agriculture. I agree with him in that as well. The treament received from the Department of Agriculture is not good. I would also support the hon member for Tabankulu when he stated that these officers of the department should have been present in the House today. The trouble begins when the regional authority taxes the people. The regional authority has to buy dipping materials in the districts and the procedure today is to call for tenders in order to make a choice. This department gives no such opportunity to the regional authorities. Even in the Official Gazette we have never seen an advertisement calling for tenders, but we usually get a circular
ster says the law is there. It means they do not know they have authority, so they come to you. Please understand, Mr Nkosiyane , because it is very simple. Please understand it. From today all regional authorities must know that if there are complaints from the dipping foremen it is the duty of each regional authority to put it right. We don't want this thing to come to this House again. Regional authorities must drive away those who usurp their powers and use their powers and look to the interests of the people. I hope that is very clear. So when you go home ... MR K. M. GUZANA: Why do you look at the Paramount Chief of Qaukeni when you say that? MR DIKO: I will look at Mr Guzana and Mr Nkosiyane who come with this foolish motion here. Now, hon members, please refuse these officers of the department who claim to be veterinary doctors , because they know nothing, because even the dip we want we don't get. They say we must not take this type of dip but another type. They want us to buy dip that will kill our stock, not that will save our stock. I don't blame them because they are here to make sure that we stay the underdog for the rest of our lives. Dr Verwoerd said as far as the black man is concerned the limit is the sky. He said that, but the first thing to make a black man not get to the sky is to kill his stock, reduce his stock, because his whole livelihood hangs on stock. o if the regional authorities will realise, hon member or Mqanduli , that they have all the world, the sky is he limit in the development of their dipping facilities, including the foremen. CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA: Mr Chairman, on a point of order, I request the interpreter to interpret. The interpreter should be given a chance to interpret what the speaker says. MR DIKO: Nonsense! You are wasting my time. (Laughter) You think we are here for Larter's sake. We are here for the sake of the people. Now, my position and my business and the business of every responsible member is to bring light to those who are in darkness. You see, some of the people here come in automatically. Don't think they are responsible to the people. They think they are just here for pleasure. When they like they can walk out and have a sip with Larter. (Laughter) You cannot do that. We are here for the good of the people and we must see to the good of the people, so I would not like anybody, especially a chief who is head of a regional authority, not to take notice of what I say. Many of the troubles of the people in the Transkei are due to the ignorance of those in authority of their power, so when we get a foolish motion like this one CHIEF MABANDLA: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, what has happened to procedure in this House? There is no interpretation. MR DIKO: You are always putting me off my track. (Laughter) When we have a chance to be educated in this House the chiefs, particularly the hon chief from Tsolo, should take note and when he goes home he says : "Oh, dipping foreman, come round I have been foolish all these years. You are my responsibility now. We are raising the stock rate and we will give you an increase and the people will never come here with their complaints." (Interjections) So I want the hon Minister to tell the Veterinary Department they must not go to our areas. They must stay here. They are useless. (Laughter) Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I am pleased to be able to speak after the speaker who speaks so loudly but says nothing. Instead he digresses all the time. I stand to speak in support of the motion, Mr Chairman. The motion suggests that the matters here which usually fall under the jurisdiction of the regional authority should now be transferred to the Department of Agriculture. Heads of the regional authorities and also members of the regional authorities know they have no proper authority. You pass something over to the department concerned and you get no reply if the department is not disposed to reply. If these matters are the responsibility of the Department of Agriculture the department should not be in a position to shrik its duties by directing people to the regional authorities. When anything comes from the regional authorities to the various departments, the department points out that the regional authority is just there to advise.
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indicating the type of dip we should buy. Sometimes there is an instruction to the secretary of a region that if he does not purchase dip from Cooper's then that region will have to make its own purchase elsewhere. This directive is sent to the secretary and not to the region. It would be appreciated if the department asked the regional authority to call for tenders and gave advice about dips, listing them. They should not fix a certain manufacturer from whom to buy dip, as is the practice in this department. The regional authorities or any other body would be glad to be advised and they are willing to accept advice, but this is not found in this department. What the department does is just to give a directive telling the regional authorities that there are veterinary officers who know about this. In Libode we are advised about a certain dip and some people who know a lot about dipping came and told us that the dip which we had been advised to purchase is no better than another kind, which was in fact cheaper. The debate was adjourned. ANNOUNCEMENT CHAIRMAN: Hon members, the hon the Chief Minister wishes to make an announcement, so I shall therefore call upon him. MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon CHIEF members, a group of students from the University of Pretoria left that city about ten days ago, carrying with them a torch flame which was lit at the Voortrekker Monument in Pretoria. At 6 o'clock this evening they will hand over this torch flame as a gesture of goodwill and congratulation to the Chief Minister of the Transkei. This shows the importance of the step we are embarking upon for independence. They did not leave by car. They are footing it all the way from Pretoria. This morning at 8 o'clock they were at Elliot and they are now on the way to Umtata. Now, in addition various messages from the Bantu Administration Boards in the Republic of South Africa and the town councils will be handed over also to the Chief Minister. This is a great honour to me. I am happy the Democratic Party never came into power. The ceremony will take place in front of the Legislative Assembly buildings at 6 o'clock. The Assembly adjourned until 2.15 p.m. AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the Suggested Amendment of the Transkei Authorities Act was resumed . CHIEF D. D. P. NDAMASE : Mr Chairman and hon members , another difficulty which we experience stems from the magistrates. They take it upon themselves to draw up dipping estimates instead of leaving this duty to the regional authority. We thought that the magistrates as leaders and advisers should draw up estimates in collaboration with the regional authorities. Someone might say that the magistrates draw up these estimates because of their knowledge of the district, but what actually happens is that the magistrate does this of his own accord, without first consulting the members of the regional authoriy. Sir, I feel I should therefore support the amendment. If things were done according to my wishes my suggestion to the hon member for Mqanduli would be to go to the people of the district and ask them to withdraw this motion. He should advise the dipping staff that the dipping foremen should make application for an increment to the regional authority. CHIEF G. B. SIYABALALA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support the amendment by the hon member for Maluti. The motion moved by the hon member for Mqanduli has no place in this House. The motion suggests a radical change in the Act governing regional authorities so that all the functions and duties of the regional authorities should be transferred to the Department of Agriculture. Thus it is not possible for us to support him, because we have these rights now and we cannot do away with them. All the tribal and regional authorities are seeking extended powers. What he should have moved was an increase in wages only, and not take away from us the rights we already have, instead of asking for further powers for the regional authorities. It is possible that he has moved this motion
only because he is dissatisfied with a particular standing order. We are agreed that by regulation the administration of these dipping tanks rests with the authorities, but that is not so in practice . I say this because no estimates are ever drawn up by secretaries of regional authorities, whereas these are efficient men drawn from the Department of Finance. One can say with some authority that the secretaries of the tribal authorities are not very efficient, but these regional authority secretaries are drawn from the Department of Finance and are properly trained and experienced enough now to draw up their own estimates. We can blame the department concerned for lack of supervision. I will give an example of something which is actually taking place now in regard to our stock. A certain serum is sometimes supplied and has to be used within a specified period. This serum is kept in Umtata here and when it is sent for use in the district the time has already expired, whereas the department instructs that that serum should be used even after the expiry date, hence the stock losses. Even though this serum comes after the expiry date we still have to pay for it. That is why I say we can to some extent blame the department concerned. MR K. M. GUZANA: No, blame the Department of the Chief Minister. This is under the Transkeian Authorities Act. CHIEF SIYABALALA : I am surprised, because I take it that secretaries of regional authorities are efficient men and are able to order this serum, particularly if they are assisted by the dipping foremen and stock inspectors, and they could get it direct in the area where it is needed. Each stock inspector knows exactly the correct serum he is instructed to use. Why can't he order it straight from the suppliers? People with no stock are to the fore in ordering medicines. They go and order a medicine and this medicine is injected into our stock. We know that by law the regional authorities are in charge of dipping, but we wish the hon Minister concerned to look into this matter. The magistrate may act on his own in spite of the regional authority, and actually say there are no funds, whereas we know that the money is there. That is why we appeal to the hon Minister to see that the magistrates do not interfere with us as far as dipping is concerned. We agreed that more tanks should be erected in our area and our region was unanimous. We put up the matter and the magistrate stated there was no money, whereas we knew there was money. The hon Minister says we are in charge of our dipping activities, but how are we going to get that money from the magistrate? It is there in the magistrate's office. Even the order forms used to order these serums are in the magistrate's office. How are we to get those forms? The revenue clerk is at the magistrate's office and the money is there. How can we approach it when the magistrate says we are not going to get it? We appeal to you that you use your influence to have the powers we already have entrenched, because we do not want to lose any of our existing powers. I am certain that whatever instructions the hon Minister gives to his subordinates will be obeyed because they will be instructions which come from this House. Cattle are our bank and we cannot tolerate being interfered with by people who have no cattle. These are our cattle. There is something undesirable in connection with the Department of Agriculture. Sometimes we recommend a dip that is effective as far as ticks are concerned and then they suggest Delnab. I am relating something which actually happens. We have circulars from the department. We know this dip and we know it is effective and we can afford it. The question of the price of this dip does not matter, because these are our cattle and yet we get instructions from people who have no cattle . They are very careless, these people who are responsible for this. I will give you an example . I put a question which was answered by the hon the Minister of Agriculture as to how many cattle died in 1973, 1974 and 1975. The hon Minister answered that the information was not available. Smears are taken from all over the country and the number of stock deaths entered. How is it not possible for the hon Minister to give figures? We do not say that the Minister himself should go and inspect those spleens, but there is some carelessness somewhere in that this information is not recorded. What we require of the hon Minister in regard to this motion is 192.
you must place the order. If you require roads to be repaired you must employ someone to do the work and then submit your account. If you say the magistrate will refuse to pay, that shouldn't worry you. You should make up another account and submit it to the magistrate and finally he will pay. If the magistrate refuses to attend to your account you will then show him your authority to do so by pointing to this section. Will you please, hon members, make use of the powers given to you. This is what I am coming to as far as your complaints are concerned : You are cowards. (Interjections) MR C. DIKO: Do you want us to go and assault the magistrate? MR GUZANA: One hon member asks if I suggest they should go and assualt the magistrate. I did not say so. Haven't you got your own courts where you can bring such matters? What is of great concern in regard to these authorities is the foolishness of the members of these authorities in not using the powers and authorities given to them. The hon members have been complaining of the wages paid to the dipping staff. Are the dipping staff paid by the regional authority or are they paid at the magistrate's office? You must fix the amount to be paid to the dipping staff and what you are going to do with their paysheet is to determine that a man of such grade will get so much a month and so on, right down the ranks, and the magistrate has no alternative but to pay the employees of the dipping staff according to your paysheet. (Interjections) If the magistrate refuses to pay accordingly then the payee will sue you and in turn you will tell the dipping staff that it is the magistrate's duty to pay them. My concern is the weakness of these members. They have even gone so far as to say they have no funds and yet they have plenty of money. In Bizana there is an unused balance of R10 214 -- and you have the audacity to say the dipping staff is not well paid. At Engcobo the balance is R10 277; Tsomo R8 760; Idutywa R3075; Nqamakwe R9 110; Qumbu and you keep on saying there are no funds. R3 477 GOVT MEMBERS: What about Mqanduli? MR GUZANA : It doesn't matter what the balance is for Mqanduli. This is what I am driving at. It is the regional authority which does not pay the dipping staff. This motion comes from Mqanduli. If people have to feast, someone has to give a beast for slaughter. I have only read out a list of unused balances, but I did not read the money which is kept in trust. CHIEF G. W. NKWENKWEZI : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, he is now discussing balances instead of discussing the motion. MR GUZANA: You have been replied to by your own people. I shall not waste my time replying to you. This reminds me of a jackal that is cornered by a pack of dogs. It imitates the dogs and says : There is the jackal in front and the dogs run ahead and the jackal escapes. The regional authorities are just the same they point to the magistrate and say he is the trouble. They don't say it is their own fault that the dipping staff is not paid. They put the blame on other people because they don't want to blame themselves. P/CHIEF B. M. SIGCAU: Why are you speaking in Xhosa? MR GUZANA: I use my mother tongue because it comes out on its own. You ought, hon members, to thank the hon member for Mqanduli because he has touched on a subject which concerns most of us. When this House has been prorogued you should go home to your people and do what you have been asked to do in connection with this motion and you should desist from the habit of waiting for a policeman to come and allot lands, because when the allocation of allotments is made a hamel is usually slaughtered and these hamels will soon be finished and a chicken will have to be used instead. (Laughter) GOVT MEMBER: You have no stock. MR GUZANA: I don't even own poultry and I have no milk cows because I am tired of thieves. I buy food. I want to buy milk from you. I want you to be able to make suitable arrangements for your cattle so that you can treat their diseases, inoculate them, feed them and produce better milk. I think, Mr Chairman, we have exhausted this motion. Hon members, you have the authority. Use your authority and when you have to pay your servants you must pay them. In fact,
that he must brush aside all interference from the magistrates and give instructions to the magistrate authorizing the secretary of the regional authority to be responsible for ordering these dips. (Interjections) That is a handicap as far as dipping matters are concerned and we want to control this situation. The department is busy enough and we do not want to load more work on to it. What we want is to be able to exercise the powers we have, but to be assisted by the department. I therefore support the amendment by the hon member. Our cattle are dying by the thousand in this country. I know the hon Minister is interested in stock and I am sure he will take this matter seriously. The hon the Leader of the Opposition is now disturbing me, but I will not pay any attention to him because I know he is experienced only in buying groceries from the shop. We don't want to eat food except that which we ourselves supply. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I had not intended taking part in this discussion but I see that important aspects are being overlooked by some of the hon members. First of all, I want to examine the amendment and if a law has to be amended the people affected are never consulted but those in authority decide that it is necessary to alter such law. The amendment seeks to persuade the regional authorities to make application for the amendment. The regional authorities will never do so, because they will be losing their own authority. I therefore say this will have no effect, because the authorities will never say: All right, take away the powers we have been given. Secondly, this is not an Act which comes from the Government, but it is an Act which is under the control of the hon the Chief Minister. If anyone wants to do anything he must bring this matter before the hon the Chief Minister. The Department of Agriculture is bound by an Act promulgated by the Department of the Chief Minister as well as by the chiefs as well as by this whole House. My third piece of advice is that I would compare these authorities to children who are being obstinate and who refuse to swallow their food. When this happens it is for us adults to force the food into their mouths, and today we are going to make these babies swallow the food we are administering. The tribal authorities have been given power to perform certain duties. I would liken the trouble in this matter to a boy who is thrashed by other boys and whenever he sees these other boys approach he trembles. On seeing someone they fear you will find them tightening their belts as though their trousers are going to drop to their ankles. Then these authorities receive circulars from the department they start trembling and saying: Oh yes, this is a circular from the department and we must act accordingly. By this Act you have been given our will to do your work unto the end, Amen. Whatever you do in your tribal authorities the magistrate will never dispute or oppose. Neither can the Minister of Agriculture and his officers object to what you do because you have been given those powers. Let us examine these things which you say are giving you trouble. You say it is the magistrate who frames estimates of your expenditure on your behalf. Why don't you do it yourselves? (Interjections) I am serious. Why don't you draw up your own estimates? You tell us you are now experienced. When will you show us you are experienced? If I should ask you the total number of cattle in your region you would not be able to give me that information. (Interjections) You say you are fully developed but you expect serum to be obtained for you. You don't even know how many cattle require vaccination. If you inoculate your cattle yourselves why should you come and worry this House? I will even come and inject your cattle for you. As long as you have these injections you just push the needle into the hide of the cattle. (Laughter) You say the cattle are destroyed by ticks. If that is the case why can't you come together as a region and then order whatever serum you require? Then you go to the magistrate for payment. You say the magistrate refuses. Is there any difficulty in writing your order and posting it to the suppliers? I know where the fault lies. After you have written your order you take it to the magistrate and ask him whether your order is correct. (Laughter) You will never do anything until such time as you have the spirit and the will to do it. If you want any particular seed in your location or region
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and now we know where our moneys are. I must also thank the hon member for Tabankulu because he gave an explanation as far as this matter is concerned, though he thought he was insulting me. I also thank all the hon members who took part in this discussion and also those of Pondoland, particularly the hon Chief D. D. T. (Laughter) The pith of this matter has been brought out by the speakers and the main issue is that people who are employed should be adequately paid. I wanted this matter to be explained and I am thankful to the son of Guzana, the leader of the New Democratic Party, because he explained this matter. What I, Ntabayitshi, want is that this matter should be fully explained so that the person who does not pay these people is exposed, whether it is the regional authority or the department. The heads of the regions have been told that the magistrates have nothing to do with this matter. They have been told that this is their work. They have kept this money in their coffers and this money has not been used in the proper way. They have been given such a lot of money, but now they don't want to use this money. In fact, they are sitting on this money. (Laughter) Now we have come out and we want this matter to be truly exposed. I am thankful that it is now clear because you have considered this question. I will have a peaceful sleep and restful dreams. (Laughter) These foremen are not given a chance to breathe. They ride their horses a long distance and I don't know how a man can be so poorly paid. What can you do with such a little money? Those people should receive better wages. If you find one so worried and in such a bad state you must talk nicely to him and tell him you will see he is well paid. Now the Government has shown some appreciation. If you go on telling a person he is not going to be well paid, at length he will commit suicide. (Laughter) As you see the light now in regard to my motion, I will ask the hon member who introduced the amendment to withdraw it because it is the duty of the regions to pay increments to their employees. This is very easy. If these people are dissatisfied you can just hand over to the Department of Agriculture. In fact, in the regions there are a lot of men under the Department of Agriculture. In fine, Mr Chairman, I am going to resume my seat. I am pleased because I have passed on a message which was given to me by the people. The reason why I say we must be unanimous on this question is because I want to report back. You must not say this motion has been brought here by Ntabayitshi and Ntabayitshi is no good. You must have sympathy for the poorly paid people. Question put and amendment accepted. Motion as amended put and agreed to. Motion No. 48 withdrawn at the request of the mover, Mr D. B. Mxutu.
this amounts to what we have been fighting against in that our people are not well paid. Now it is our turn to pay our own people. If you are really concerned about these people you will give them decent salaries. There you have let your money lie in the office of the magistrate and you are not using those funds which are being kept by the magistrate. Finally, the magistrate will say these people do not know how to use the money. If it is said there is no money and yet you are in this House how can you accept such a statement? Something has been read out to you and you have been shown the balances left over. If someone tells you there is no money you can refute that, but instead , if someone says you cannot use this money you just accept that and sit down and do nothing. Don't expect the magistrate to do things for you. You should be doing your own work and you should do it without fear. It is your duty to do these things and when you fail to do your duty you are doing harm to your own people , particularly when a man works for you and he feels he is not being paid fairly. I thank you , Mr Chairman, and I also thank you, hon members. I hope you will also thank me. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN : Hon members, I think this motion has been well and thoroughly investigated , so I shall call upon the mover to reply. MR P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I met people who were in difficulties and I told them I would present their case to this House. In fact, I could see from the way hon members took up this motion that this is a difficulty all over. If people come together and find they cannot come to an agreement, so much so that they do not know what line of thought to take, that is enough to indicate that there is a problem. I would that the hon member for Maluti should withdraw his amendment, because the motion and the amendment aim at one thing , and that is the payment of the dipping staff. If the dipping staff is not well paid by the regional authority then all the dipping staff should be placed directly under the Department of Agriculture. There is absolutely no dispute over this motion. The only difficulty is that people could not see the correct line to take. Many people are doing this work but they do not pull together. These are the regional authority, the magistrate and the people concerned in agriculture, such as the veterinary officers. It is clear that all these people are perfectly sensible, but what they forget is consideration of the payment made to the employees. Another problem is the state of the dipping tanks. They are broken and no repairs are ever carried out. During the time when there were dipping supervisors , before this innovation, poles used to be placed in order to save the animals from slipping into the dipping tank. I can mention one officer who helped in Mqanduli at the dipping tanks. It was a man known as Tyali . Today no such assistance is given and the roads leading to the dipping tanks are badly eroded. I think those officers who are engaged in dipping activities at present just roll up their overalls and go home as soon as the dipping is over. No-one is responsible for repairs to the dipping tanks. The foremen and staff are not well paid. The people who fill the dipping tanks with water are not paid. They draw water and pour it into the dipping tank and they are not paid for this. A person should be paid for his labours. Today you cannot even buy a piece of bread without money. People should be given enough money to have a good living. These dipping staff have children who attend school. Some of them should be in high school or at Fort Hare,, but the parents have not sufficient money. I am thankful this motion has been supported by some of the hon members. The regional authorities have been advised what steps to take although at times they are disturbed in the performance of their duties by the magistrates. I thank the Department of Agriculture , because that department does not deny these things. The department says this is a matter under the control of the regional authority, but if the department fails to pay for these services then the regional authority has to complain. It is now clear where the delay is in so far as this motion is concerned . If the heads of regions who are present would say to the department: All right, take transfer of this matter - the department would immediately do so. Now these heads have been exposed
SUGGESTED AMENDMENT OF REGULATIONS PERTAINING TO POLICE RANKS MR E. V. NDAMASE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should consider the desirability of amending rules pertaining to police ranks to provide for the limiting of the ranks of sergeant to one instead of three as is the position at present." CHIEF G. B. SIYABALALA: I second, Mr Chairman. MR NDAMASE : Mr Chairman, what this motion seeks to establish is perhaps not clear to most of us, so I shall ask the hon members to exercise patience. I will first of all try to enlighten this House on the true position with regard to the police force in this country. First of all, I would like to say that with our independence just round the corner it is imperative that we look around us and see whether everything is in order; whether in actual truth everything has been done to make everybody feel happy; whether all the government departments have been fully catered for. What this motion seeks to establish is to better the position of the policeman. We all realise that the policeman has a very important duty to perform. We rely on the help we get from the police for our peace and security. It is important, therefore, that we should make the policeman feel comfortable in his job ― that is, by removing all the colour barriers which make his job difficult.
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pictures that Christ is depicted as white. You will find that the Devil is depicted as a black person with a tail. (Laughter) The time has now passed when anyone thinks we cannot pass examinations like everyone else. Someone said if you meet any policeman, white or black, and he has a helmet on you must hit until something comes from under the helmet. When the blood flows it will be red, whatever the colour of the skin. You must hit and hit so that you can see blood. It will be red blood irrespective of the nationality of the person. The mover has practical experience of what we are discussing. Compare the wages of three people employed in the same work - White, Coloured and African. There is no difference in these people but the colour policy applies. A White schemes as to how to keep the black man in his place. With them the policy is one of delaying tactics so that we are delayed deliberately so that what takes five years for a white person must take ten years for a Black. Today Africans can manufacture their own arms and ammunition. Now, because of certain discriminatory laws these people are not free to show this knowledge they have. It must be reserved for the boss. I also expressed the opinion that there should be no discrimination in pay. Police of the same rank should be paid equal wages. It is an anomaly that an African sergeant has to salute a white constable. That is a new thing in this Africa of ours. The motion seeks that we should be equal in this country and therefore at peace as long as the qualifications are the same. Mr Chairman, this is not the usual kind of motion. I think a motion of this type was discussed in this House very early in the life of our parliament. There was an appeal to the white police for co-operation. As we have always said, there will be peace if there is no discrimination amongst the various race groups. Attention should not be directed only to the African. Mr Chairman, I will not be lengthy because the mover has been very explicit in this motion, but I support the motion whole-heartedly and I say it should be put into effect very soon. MR W. M. MADIKIZELA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support this motion although I have never been a policeman and I know very little about the police force. What is of importance in regard to people who have been appointed to do certain work is that they should get on well with the people with whom they are to work. The policeman is a man who should love his people. The mover states that a black policeman takes a long time to reach the high ranks, whereas a white man takes a short time. Anyone would come to the conclusion that the one who has been given greater authority must in turn have greater love for the people. One should therefore come to the conclusion that a white person likes people more than any other person. What we know of the policeman is that they will chase people who have no passes. They will arrest people who have trespassed in the urban areas or who went to find sleeping accommodation in the wrong place. (Laughter) I am speaking of things which happen in town here and even members of parliament have met that difficulty. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR MADIKIZELA: Those are the duties given to the police to perform. If someone brings something which you do not like you must meet him likewise. Most black people do not like the police as they should. According to what is being maintained by the Government the fact is that the police should love people more than they do. This motion now seeks the truth and the truth should show that anyone who has been promoted to higher rank likes the people. The reason why the black police have been delayed in getting promotion is that the Government did not believe that they had a liking for their own people. Formerly the qualification for such promotion was that a constable had arrested a lot of people, or had illtreated a lot of people. After such a performance you would be put to the test to find out whether you would be able to rule people. Now it has been brought to light that that is the way the police were trained. A person is employed in such a position because he loves the people. In order that the police may do good work he should be friendly towards the people amongst whom he is working. Even the white policeman used to get his promotion because of his harshness towards the black people. I am
We are all aware that for a long time the policeman has been looked down upon as a person in a very dirty job. Only people who had no sense of self-respect could join the police force as far as our people were concerned, because members of the police force were regarded as nothing but animals - people with no sense of human values - but with the position now created we realise that the policeman is as good as any other servant of the public, hence the determination to make him feel just like any other policeman in the country, let alone in the Republic. During the time when the policeman was known as a police boy and when the policeman could not sit for an examination, they had to be good boys of the boss in the person of the station commander in order to get promotion, and they could only be promoted to the ranks of lance corporal, full corporal, lance sergeant and no further. Now that they have to study their position has been raised higher. They have to write an examination to get to the rank of sergeant, but what I fail to understand is that they must still write an examination to become a lance sergeant, then a sergeant (I shall say in this context a full sergeant), and then a senior sergeant before he can become a warrant officer. That is the beginning of officer rank. That is the beginning of human dignity. It is on the attainment of this rank that he becomes a respected man, but the process is delayed because he has to write three examinations before he gets to this rank and this is only the position with the Africans in South Africa. Men in the same force have a different set-up that is, white men. A white constable will write an examination in order to become a sergeant and then another examination to become a warrant officer, so that his promotion is faster than that of the ordinary black man. If therefore we have any sense of values we have to see to it that this position is rectified. You have got to see to it that this wrong is corrected. We have got to make our people realise that independence of the black man has brought light to him. We have got to make these policemen feel that with the coming of independence they will be respected. It is in that faith, therefore, that this motion has been brought before this House, and I hope hon members will support this motion and make the policeman happy. Since this is a non-contentious motion I expect the whole House to rally behind me. I do not expect a lengthy discussion on this matter since people are not well informed about it. When I sit down I expect everybody to say the motion is carried, or it is a good motion. MR H. H. ZIBI : What is the set-up now with the Transkei police? MR NDAMASE : The set-up with the Transkei police is this : When a young man joins the police force he automatically becomes a constable, and if he wants any promotion at all he has to sit for an examination. After the first examination he qualifies for promotion to the rank of lance sergeant and he has yet to write another examination to become a full sergeant and yet another examination before he becomes a senior sergeant and yet another examination to become a warrant officer, which all means that he has to write three examinations. This is unnecessary for one police sergeant. That is just what this motion seeks to correct. A white man writes the first examination as a constable, he becomes a sergeant and from there he writes another examination to become a warrant officer, instead of a sergeant. So we want to shorten this process because we want our people to rise higher. That is the position, thank you, Mr Chairman. CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up whole-heartedly to support this motion. I quite appreciate the detailed information which we received from the mover. The time for coloour discrimination is over. The time is over when a nonWhite has to study for five years and a White for only two years to cover the same course. The Democratic Party has always pointed out that the difference is only in colour and not in ability. That is a very important point raised by the mover, because the police are peace officers responsible for law and order. We sometimes have complaints against the police but when something goes wrong at my place I appeal to the police. The mover is right when he says no reasonable man will oppose a motion of this kind, which seeks to raise our people. You will find in all these Biblical 195.
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should consider the advisability of contacting the Department of Railways to provide more buses during public holidays and to send buses to areas which are far from the station when necessary, so as to cope up with transport difficulties during these periods. "
not in a position to say how a white constable treated other white people, but I can state that if a black constable showed kindness or friendliness to his people that constable was not promoted. If a black constable treated people in an obnoxious manner he was regarded as a "good boy", then he would be given that uncertain promotion. He would be left in that posi tion for a long period in order to see whether he was performing the duties, as I have stated. Today we see things in a different light. We want people who will maintain order and peace - people who show kindness to their people so that they should live together in peace and so that they should be able to control and rule them. It is time people ceased to exercise hatred but should try to be kind. The examination is a test to find out whether a policeman has a knowledge of people. If you have no hatred but you have some knowledge, you stand the chance of not being promoted. In those days that is how decisions were arrived at. When one qualified for a long-service medal one was expected to have served for a period of thirty years, and yet such a man would be surpassed by a recruit who had recently joined the force. This motion seeks that we should be able to think on behalf of our own people and grant to each man what he deserves. Should anyone show signs of cruelty he should not receive quick promotion. That is why I wish these rules and regulations to be relaxed, because the cruel work is diminishing of arresting people out of spite. Today it is a requirement that we should know one another well so that we should be in a position to know when a white man comes to us with his wiles. The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 29 April 1976.
ROAD TRAFFIC AMENDMENT BILL: FIRST READING M/ROADS AND WORKS: Mr Chairman and hon members, I lay upon the table a copy of the bill amending the Transkei Road Traffic Act, 1967. In view of the fact that the bill has financial implications falling within the purview of Section 53 of the Transkei Constitution Act (Act No. 48 of 1963 as amended) I now table a message in terms of rule 128(b) that the hon the Chief Minister and Minister of Finance has recommended that the bill be considered by the Assembly. I move that the bill be read a first time. M/AGRICULTURE : I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. The bill was read a first time. M/ROADS: Mr Chairman, the second reading will be on 30 April or so soon thereafter. APPROPRIATION BILL 1976
M/FINANCE: Mr Chairman and hon members, before I deal with this item I wish to make a certain correction. This item on the order paper should not have had two sections subsections (a) and (b). It should have been one item for the first reading of the Appropriation Bill and another for the first reading of the Road Traffic Amendment Bill. This has rather confused the issue and this should not occur again. Mr Chairman and hon members, I lay upon the table:(1) Estimates of Expenditure to be defrayed from the Transkeian Revenue Fund during the year ending 31 March 1977; and (a) Estimates of Revenue to be received during the year ending 31 March 1977; Mr Chairman, as Minister of Finance I wish to convey to the Assembly in terms of section 53 of the Transkei Constitution Act 1963 my recommendation for the appropriations contemplated in the Transkeian Appropriation Bill 1976. I lay upon the table a copy of the Transkeian Appropriation Bill 1976 and I move that the bill be now read a first time. M/AGRICULTURE : I second. Agreed to. The bill was read a first time. M/FINANCE: Mr Chairman, the second reading will take place on Monday, 3 May 1976.
THURSDAY, 29 APRIL 1976 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. NOTICES OF BILLS CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon members, I beg to give notice that on Friday the 30th day of April 1976 I propose to move the first reading to a bill to provide for the amendment of the Transkei Liquor Act No. 7 of 1967 so as to bring the provisions for the administration of this Act into line with an independent Transkei and to abolish discrimination based on race. I further beg to give notice that on Friday the 30th day of April 1976 I propose to move the first reading of a bill to provide for the amendment of the Deeds Registry Act No. 47 of 1937 so as to make provision for the establishment of a Deeds Registry for the Transkei. I beg to give notice that on Friday the 30th day of April 1976 I propose to move the first reading of a bill to provide for the extension of the application of certain laws passed by the Transkeian Legislative Assembly to the areas recently included in the Transkei namely, the districts of Glen Grey and Herschel so as to ensure uniformity in the administration of the whole of the Transkei.
SUGGESTED AMENDMENT OF REGULATIONS PERTAINING TO POLICE RANKS The debate was resumed. MR W. M. MADIKIZELA : Mr Chairman and hon members, I was still on the floor when we adjourned yesterday, speaking in support of this motion. I was explaining that the ranks of our police as they go up the ladder should not be so many. They should be decreased. Police work in the past was sometimes performed by illiterate people and the reason for that was the slow promotion they received. They used horses then and you would always see a white policeman accompanied by a black policeman. The white policeman would have a wide belt round his waist with a revolver, and the black constable would just carry a short hunting stick and they would be sent to arrest a dangerous man. The black constable would be reasonable with this man persuade him not to resist arrest. They would then take this man into custody, but the one who made the report was the white constable who could not speak the language and had not even asked the arrested man any question. The credit would then go to the white constable and then promotion followed. The black policeman did not enter into the picture at all. This experienced African policeman would accompany the white recruits because he was regarded as reliable, and the white recruits would soon be promoted but the black constable would remain where he was. Even
NOTICES OF MOTION 62.
Mr. T. M. Makaula gave notice to move :-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkeian Government should consider the advisability of negotiating with the Republican Government that the police should avoid the the habit of letting police dogs to bite our people when effecting arrests." 63.
Mr. T. M. Makaula gave notice to move:-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should consider the advisability of constructing a bridge over the Qweqwe river on the road branching from East London road through Qweqwe and Mpeko locations," 64.
: FIRST READING
Mr. T. M. Makaula gave notice to move:196.
when he did attain promotion he would have to go through all those numerous stages and that is why the educated people did not join the police force. Today the policy is that we should reduce the number of years a schoolchild has to pass through and that is what we want for the police as well. We want the best men to join the police force. Our curse in the Transkei today is stock theft and the cultivation of dagga as well as the crimes of violence resulting from the use of this weed. The use of intoxicating liquor of all kinds has increased and this also leads to crime. These crimes can only be fought by one who can mix with the people and be interested in them. We are still unfortunate as far as stock theft is concerned but now the best brains have resigned from the police and the ones at the bottom are being promoted. These new people have to prosecute in the courts, but you find that the stock thieves are more intelligent than the prosecutors. Again, men are chosen who cannot mix easily with the people. The chiefs present here will testify that very few members of the police co-operate with them. These people are promoted because they cannot work in harmony with their own people. The chiefs are interested in their subjects and then there is friction between the chief and the policeman. Now there is also the tendency for the police to accept bribes, because these men were not promoted in time to receive good wages and the cost of living continues to rise. The thieves now have a more or less easy time because they just bribe their way through, and that is why stock thieving is so rife. The hon the Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland will bear with me because a certain locality there is famous for stock thieves. On one occasion a white constable went unaccompanied to this locality to effect the arrest of a man alleged to have stolen stock. The fellow thieves received this constable very well and he was accompanied to the headman's kraal to spend the night. That night they stole a sheep and slaughtered it in his honour. (Laughter) They took his horse and placed it in a camp with other horses and the people went to the chief and said: Here is the man, take him to where he belongs. When the policeman looked for his horse he could not find it so they lent him a horse to ride. The man was sentenced to three months' imprisonment and on his release he returned bringing ten guns which he had stolen there. (Laughter) Then they went to look for someone who could mix easily with these people. We plead now that the police should have as speedy promotion as possible in order that they should fight crime. We want a Transkei which can boast of law and order and peace. Thank you, Mr Chairman.
been acceptable to the Government of South Africa. If that is so we cannot say that the police are there to maintain the law as long as they are not allowed to arrest all offenders. For that reason I say all the regulations as far as the police are concerned should be altogether amended so that a new regulation is put into force. The white police have been awarded gold medals for work which is said to have been done by white police, when the work was in fact performed by black policemen. White policemen were promoted to the highest ranks of the force without having to write examinations because of work which was said to have been done by them, but which was in fact done by black policemen. In supporting this motion I also wish that the black policemen should be paid equal salaries, as far as their ranks are concerned, to those of their white counterparts. The police have the most onerous duties to perform, particularly as they often run a lot of personal risk and danger in the performance of their duties. The white Government has shown that the police should be well paid and be accommodated in suitable buildings. It should therefore not surprise us to find that our black police were accommodated in rondavels instead of in substantial buildings, because they were in fact not police but were only informers to the white police. Today you find a white youth being recruited in the police force and he has to be given training by a black sergeant, but thereafter the white policeman has to issue orders to the black sergeant. What happens today is that the white constable who has had only two years' service comes to the Transkei as a seconded officer and has to give instructions to the black police. Sir, this is a clear indication that there is something which needs to be corrected. These white constables have tried their best to hide information which should have been imparted to the black constable for the administration of police business. Sir, I say to hell with seconded officers in the Transkei Police Force. All these white seconded policemen should be removed from the Transkei. They are nothing. How foolish we black people are just to sit and be taught and never to become teachers. I want to lay stress on the fact that as far as these white seconded police in the Transkei are concerned we say have had enough now, thank you. I will also add that even the black police should see that they behave well, because if we say the white police should leave the Transkei it means we have to put our trust in the black police. It surprises us today to learn that many black people have been killed by being fired at by black policemen. I maintain that when a policeman has been given a revolver he is not given that revolver just to go and shoot someone who is suspected of having committed an offence. I believe that the policeman is given a revolver in self-defence and should only fire after he has been fired at. (Interjections) Now I see that the hon members seem not to be satisfied with my remark. May I then ask if a policeman has a revolver can't he wait until he sees that the person he has to arrest shows an intention to assault him?
MR B. P. VAPI : Mr Chairman and hon members, I also stand up to support this motion. The black police should receive promotion in the same manner as the white police. There is something in the manner in which the black police recieve promotion which requires to be put right. I would say the sky must be the limit. That is how the black police shoud rise in rank. The present procedure should be done away with and we should follow a procedure which will give reasonable promotion to black policemen. The law which is now followed was made in Cape Town by the Whites in their own parliament, because they decided they had a Native problem. At the beginning it was only the white police who were members of the force and there were no Blacks at all in the police. The aim as far as the police force was concerned was not to preserve peace and order but they were only there for the purpose of suppression. At first the black people were used as interpreters for the white police, as the white police could not speak the native languages, and in interpreting to try to find ways of suppression. The hon members will support me when I say usually when a white policeman is on duty he is accompanied by a black policeman when he goes to arrest someone so that the law should be enforced . To prove that a black policeman was never truly a policeman but just a sham, he was never given any authority to arrest people. If a black policeman had equal rights to arrest lawbreakers, a black policeman would be given authority to arrest anyone regardless of their colour. The white police could arrest white as well as black offenders but black police could not arrest white offenders. Even to date they have no such right. This procedure has
Then and only then should he use his firearm. If a policeman has to arrest a dangerous criminal it is said he should not shoot to kill but only to disable him by shooting at his legs. If a constable shoots at a person he has to arrest it simply means he has not given that offender a chance to go and defend himself in court. The hon member for Nqamakwe, Mr Dekeda, is asking me what the motion says. I believe he has been sleeping all along in this House. (Laughter) I shall tell him that the motion says the black police should receive promotion in the same way as the Whites. It will not be sufficient that we only seek that the black police should attain certain ranks if we cannot then urge them to conduct themselves well. However, I shall not altogether place the blame on the black police for shooting other people. It is because they have been taught to do so by white police. The black people have inherited this habit of speaking harshly to their people from the white police. The reason I say the law governing the police force should be amended is because the intention of that law is to manhandle the black people. I have another question to put: Why must a policeman who is about to arrest a suspect first of all hit that man in the face? Mr Chairman, I support this motion by the hon member and I say they should get their promotion in the same way as their white 197.
who has suffered and gone through the ranks. We have today 28 districts in the Transkei and we wish that all discriminatory barriers should be removed and that the police should be promoted until they enjoy the highest positions in the police force. We expect that also with the railway police they should be highranking officers. We wish that promotions should come in a speedy manner. It is no use promoting a man who is so old as to be near death. The highest of our people travel in those same trains and you might be murdered in your compartment. These departments should be manned by people who have reached the top in training. We want the standard to be so raised that some of our men will be sent to England to Scotland Yard and Interpol so that they can get the best training the world can give. We do not want police work taken as just cheap work by foolish men of no vision. I want this point to be made clear, Mr Chairman. We are not going to licence the police to shoot our people. They must shoot when necessary. There are locations where you have to shoot or die. (Laughter) I am reminded by the hon member for Port St John's that I met something very strange there. A policeman was asked why a certain man was arrested and he drew his revolver and shot everybody there. When he appeared before the magistrate he was found not guilty. A policeman should shoot only when necessary. This must be clear. We suggest that these police should get the best training and the best education and they should be fair to everybody. The people of the Transkei should be treated in the same way, irrespective of race or what he is. If an African goes wrong he must be arrested.. The old practice by the white police of always finding the black man in the wrong when a white man was guilty of doing something to a black man must stop. You will excuse me, Mr Chairman, but we must mention these things because they affect us very closely. We are trying to right a wrong. It is an accepted fact that a wound will not heal if that wound is not washed, no matter if it painful at times to wash it. If we cover these things up we will find there will be no peace. One day there was a trafic collision in Libode and the white man was in the wrong. The white man told the African policeman: This is not the Transkei, it is the I will show you. We said: Surely_we Transvaal will give evidence in your favour, my brother. This white man said: Wait, the police are coming - just wait and see. When the police came they spoke a strange language to us and the black driver was manhandled and we expected anything to happen. I was frightened myself that the bullet would find me. (Laughter) There were no measurements taken but that person was just taken and placed in custody. What we want is that our policemen should be trained and they should be trained and developed as the country develops. They should not be racially prejudiced as the Whites have been. They will have been trained, whereas in the old days people were just taken into the police force illiterate as they were. We would like to put these present-day police on the right course. As things develop we would like temales also to join the police force. This is necessary so that should a woman be arrested for dagga she should not be searched by a white male and the man making faces at this woman. (Laughter) We would like these women also to be trained so that they will be above jealousy. Sometimes a complainant comes and the complainant is female and quite attractive. If we have to build a proper nation we have to put many things right. We must civilize a person but it is no use putting that cultured person in a pigsty. These policemen we speak have to be proabout - the police of tomorrow perly accommodated in decent dwellings. We should build houses so that we are respected abroad and in our own area. A person who lives in a pigsty loses respect. The aim of this motion is to make our police cultured. We want them to be interested in their work. We want our police to be diligent in their work and not to be attracted by higher wages in commerce and industry. They should study and they should be well paid accordingly. They should be paid respectable wages which will also enhance their self-respect. They should be given full responsibility so that they can work properly. Things are different today and criminals and stock thieves are very intelligent. Some of these
counterparts receive promotion. When a black constable finds a white person breaking the law he must not first of all run to find a white constable to come and arrest the offender. If it is the law that a black constable may not arrest a white person then I say that law should be done away with and a fresh law promulgated. Lastly I wish to stress that the black constable must stop shooting to kill the black people. (Interjections) I am not talking about stock thieves, but about offenders in general. If our people are suspected of having broken the law they must not be killed. Mr Chairman, I think I have sufficiently supported this motion. MR N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I rise to speak in support of this motion moved by the hon member for Nyandeni. As he explained this motion it became clear that he was addressing this House on the possible promotion of black policemen. The hon member explained that it takes an African policeman longer to reach a certain rank than it does a white man and that the white policeman has to write fewer examinations than a black policeman. He enumerated the various stages of promotion from constable to lance sergeant; from lance sergeant to senior sergeant; from senior sergeant to warrant officer. The hon member asked that the practice of delaying promotion of black police should be done away with. I do not know much about the ranks of the police, Mr Chairman, but I know that promotion is possible subject to the writing of certain examinations. Now, our people reach even the ranks of major, lieutenant and so on, and I don't know which is senior to the other. That explains that a policeman has to study the requirements and that it is essential for him to study. In the past a black policeman had only to be a good boy to the white policeman in order to get his promotion, but that position no longer obtains. Today they have to write examinations and this promotion follows. Today police work is of just as high a standard as any other calling because the rough handling of people by the police is a thing of the past. The police now have to be gentle in speaking to the people. Now, if the police are gentle the people will respond and realise that the policeman is a peace officer and that he is of assistance to them. The hon member pointed out that the examinations written by the police should be the same for Whites and Blacks. That is the gist of this motion and that is fair, but it also entails good behaviour on the part of would-be policemen. They should be men of education and men of integrity. For that reason I support this motion moved by the hon member. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN: Hon members, this is a motion which is not contentious and I think it has been thoroughly canvassed. I shall now call upon the mover to reply. MR E. V. NDAMASE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I have much pleasure in saying that things have turned out as I prayed they would. No-one can gainsay that policemen are very necessary. Our businesses have to be protected by these same policemen. The Government enemies, seen and unseen, have to be guarded against by the police. Even those anti-chief elements have to be watched by the police. The police have to see that no bombs are planted here one morning. That is why this motion seeks to shorten the path to promotion. Imagine a man having to occupy all these various ranks of sergeant! That is why we desire that the police recruits should be properly trained. We would like to see the best educated of our people in the police force. When we talk of the police some people might belittle the subject. When we talk of the police we include prison warders because we regard them as police and they work hand in hand with the police. (Interjections) I am not going into that, hon member. I wish the hon members not to disturb me because I am master of my subject. Had he wished to speak he should have spoken. We say police work covers many aspects. The gaol we regard as a police department and we expect that the gaol police should enjoy the same chances of promotion as the Transkeian police. If we look at the names only we shall be deceived because these people do the same work. We have a graduate today in one of our gaols. He is polished and educated and in the past a man of that kind would never have been available in such a place. We have Major Cwele here who is an educated man
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direction has already been taken by this House. A motion has been passed which will extend freehold rights to many Transkeians and thus provide a new type of landed class. Again, early this week we passed a motion whereby the people of Fingoland region will have title deeds for their kraal sites and their ploughing plots. I quite appreciate that the implications of this measure are beyond the understanding of most hon members. Most hon members for obvious reasons labour under a misconception and they entertain feelings of insecurity, but the main thing, Mr Chairman, whether we like it or not is that there is great change concerning land in the Transkei and it is clear how it is inevitable that we will have a new class of landed people in the Transkei people who will vest their interest in agriculture, who will contribute to the development of the Transkei by agricultural means. This, Mr Chairman, as it has been pointed out, is very necessary. As I have said too, industry to a large extent depends and is based on agriculture, therefore the establishment of such a Bank by the Government is highly necessary. For these obvious reasons, I move accordingly. MR K. G. NOTA: I second the motion, Mr Chairman. The debate was adjourned.
thieves were once police and they studied all the police methods and then resigned and joined the underworld. The policeman has to work against intelligent criminals and he has to be educated himself. He must not be a man who has worries of some kind which make him absentminded, because he has to drive in traffic. His working conditions should be such as will keep this man fit. The hon Mr Dyarvane was once in the police and I am sorry he is out at present. The police should be medically sound and should receive free medical treatment. I would say that the families should also receive free treatment but if the police are well paid this may not be necessary. Sometimes a man gets benefits and the children have to be included in those benefits because the man is not sufficiently well paid. It would be a queer idea if our Prime Minister who is getting so much money should get free medical treatment for his family. If anyone has not heard me I cannot help that, but I thank all the hon members for supporting me, especially the hon Chief Mabandla and the member for Port St John's, Mr Vapi ; also the hon Mr Madikizela from Bizana for the points he raised, which are not pleasant matters. I thank the hon Mr Jafta for the skilful way in which he supported the motion. I am happy that when we handle a question of this kind we can forget political affiliations - DP, NDP and TNIP - and we work as a team which aims only at the national interest. I am happy you have listened to me so attentively. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Question put and motion carried unonimously.
ANNOUNCEMENT CHAIRMAN: Hon members, I have received a telegram from the magistrate of Umzimkulu requesting the presence of Chiefs Msingapantsi, Setuse, Baleni and Jozana at a meeting of the Umzimkulu committee for Independence Celebrations. Unfortunately, there is no date given. The Assembly adjourned.
ESTABLISHMENT OF LAND BANK MR M. P. LUDIDI: members, I move:—
Mr
Chairman
and hon
AFTERNOON SESSION
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of establishing in the near future a Land Bank as part of a programme for improving land productivity." Mr Chairman, the motion seeks the creation of a Land Bank which will offer credit facilities to Transkeian farmers to enable them to increase their productivity. The farmer will be able to get money loans at a slightly lower rate of interest from the Bank established in terms of this motion. The Bank will be established mainly for that purpose. He will get financial assistance to buy agricultural equipment, to improve his cattle and other farm animals, to provide good dipping services and to combat animal diseases and to extend himself by buying additional farms where it is necessary. Mr Chairman, industry in some countries is based on agriculture. Forestry, for example, is one area where this happens. The timber industry depends largely on the availability of wood. The large wine on agricultural industry is based on agriculture products such as grapes. The fruit industry for our dried and canned fruit also depends on agriculture. The clothes that we wear come from agricultural products such as cotton , wool, hides, etc. The most basic thing is the dairy industry, so it is clear, Mr Chairman, that without agricultural productivity of all kinds industry, except that which is based on mineral resources, would grind to a halt. So the Land Bank called for in this motion will help our farmers to increase agricultural produce. The Government should provide a Land Bank which will enable the farmer to buy competent agricultural equipment. Intensive agriculture relies on the type of agricultural equipment and such equipment, Mr Chairman, is quite expensive. We may think about sprayers, tractors and other such equipment. The Land Bank will offer money loans to the farmer so that he may be in a position to buy this machinery. Now, how the Land Bank will be established and how it will operate I will leave to my colleagues who will speak to the motion. Lastly, Mr Chairman, the Bank will need security. It will need something to hold should the farmer fail to pay back the loan and land could be one form of security. There is a great change, Mr Chairman, in the Transkei regarding the question of land tenure. I predict that between independence and ten years hence there will be a series of measures passed by this House which will affect land tenure and, without exception, the aim will be to improve agricultural viability. A step in this
The debate on the Establishment of a Land Bank was resumed. MR N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I find myself in difficulties though I stand to speak on this motion. The mover explained how this Land Bank would operate but my difficulty is that I do not know how the Bank will be established, because I believe we should first have discussed ways and means of setting up a Land Bank. To give an example, I thought there would be some discussion amongst members and a suggestion made that each member would contribute, say, R100. This Land Bank would then have members and they would canvass other people to take shares in order to increase the capital. When sufficient funds had been collected we could then approach the Government to establish this Bank. That is why I say the mover did not go deeply enough into the matter. When a Bank is to be established a number of people come together in order to raise funds and then they make application for the registration of the Bank. I agree with what the hon member said about loans and the purchase of machinery and so on. These things are essential, but I cannot go further except to say that an explanation has not been given as to how this Bank will be floated. MR K. G. NOTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I want to start just on the point raised by the hon member for Qumbu. His worry is how to float the Land Bank. The Land Bank will be floated by the Legislative Assembly. The money will be appropriated by Parliament and this money will be handed over to a government corporation which will form the Land Bank. The Government will appoint directors for the Land Bank who will be responsible to the Government and run the activities of the Land Bank for the Government, for Parliament, for the public. That is how the Land Bank will be formed and that is how it is formed . I will go further, Mr Chairman, to illustrate this matter. There is a government corporation called the XDC. This corporation is giving loans to the public -- that is, business people - to buy stocks for their shops, to buy shops from the Trust and even financing them to buy vans, even financing them to buy homes. The property which is being bought serves as security. The public therefore has a corporation which helps it -- but what about the farmers? They have no finanit - but what about the farmers? They have no finan-
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the return of the loan. Having pledged his farm, having pledged his small plot, when this debt is finished this man is free. He has a farm and his only debt is to supply the man in the town with food. The whole idea of creating the Land Bank will have been realised now. Thank you, Mr Chairman . CHIEF D. D. P. NDAMASE: Mr Chairman and hon members, if the mover will allow me to liken the Land Bank he suggests for the Transkei to the South African Land Bank in terms of Act No. 13 of 1934, initially the Land Bank is financed by the Government and in terms of the same Act a board is established by the Government to control the Land Bank. Funds of the Land Bank are derived from funds raised by the board under the provisions of the Act, from other capital amounts paid to the Bank by the Government, from such moneys as Parliament may appropriate from time to time as part of the funds (and for sums of money paid by the Government to the Land Bank Board the Government will be paid some interest by the Land Bank), and also from deposits from farmers into the Land Bank. When it comes to the business of the Board, farmers are advanced moneys on mortgage of land in the form of credit accounts and also to advance moneys to certain holdings such as I believe in Butterworth. In the Republic there are agricultural unions and co-operatives to which the Board makes grants. Grants are also made by this Land Bank Board for research in agricultural activties. The Transkeian Government also gives grants or subsides for the improvement of stock in the Transkei. This is a function identical to those carried out by the Land Bank in the Republic. Mr Chairman, I think I have cleared up a few points for those who do not know exactly what the functions of the Land Bank are. It will be established only for farmers in exactly the same way as the XDC has made money available to traders. Anyone who knows what the XDC does might suggest it could also give assistance to farmers but in fact if this motion is carried out it will relieve the XDC in regard to giving assistance to farmers, because at present the XDC does not perform that duty satisfactorily. Probably people want to know what functions will be performed by the Land Bank in view of the fact that this Bank at present has no funds. No-one can feed from a dish which has no food. Let there be a Land Bank and then they will have funds. MR D. NDAMASE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I rise to support this very important motion. We have always been accused of being unable to farm properly because we work in the labour centres, come home during the ploughing season, plough rapidly and then return to work, leaving the women to do the cultivation and weeding. While we are busy ploughing the land there is no food, and we have to hurry back to the labour areas to buy food and also organize parties for cultivation. It is important that we should have this Bank which will lend us money. It has been stipulated that the farmers will pay back to the Land Bank whatever they borrow. Now it becomes a credit and savings bank. Stock diseases have finished our cattle but people will now be in a position to buy tractors and good seed. This tractor will be able to plough the land in a short time. What is important in farming is careful ploughing. You know you are buying expensive seed and you know you are putting this seed into well ploughed land. Fertilizers are very expensive but very effective as far as mealies are concerned. It is necessary to use chemical fertilizers which contain essential constituents of the soil. We cannot afford these fertilizers and then we are accused of being inefficient farmers. I support this motion whole-heartedly. When the question is asked as to what we shall pledge, as in Fingoland a motion has been passed permitting those people to have freehold lands it will be easy for him because they will just produce their title deeds and the money will be advanced to them. There is no provision for those who have no title deeds at present. There is an arrangement as we have no money by which loans are classified into short, medium and long term loans. These loans will be determined according to the number of head of cattle. The Bank knows he wants so much money and the number of cattle pledged is according to the amount of the loan. Let us say that a man wants five oxen, then the officials will come and inspect your cattle and
cial institution which helps them. The Land Bank will serve to help the farmer. The hon member for Maluti mentioned that the interest rates of the Land Bank will be lower than those of commercial banks. Yes, it is true, because the Bank will be the property of the Government. It will not be a commercial bank as defined by the hon member for Emboland. If the ordinary public could come together and pay in their moneys and float a bank, definitely that is a commercial bank based on interest, because it is formed by people wanting to get property. We have to agree in one thing, Mr Chairman. When the Land Bank has been created it will not lend money without security, and the security will be the land, but the present system of land tenure does not allow our people to possess land. That system will definitely have to be changed. That initiative will come from the Government. It is the Government which was oppressing the people of the Transkei, which made them landless and possess no property - that is, the Republican Government with its policy of keeping a black man under but our Government is not following that policy and that is why I say the initiative should come from the Government and lay down a policy which will help the people of the Transkei. Only that policy will give productivity in the Transkei, and that is ownership of the land. Ownership encourages productivity but it does not guarantee productivity. What guarantees productivity is capital. Now, the capital will come from the Land Bank which guarantees production. Ownership of the land encourages production. Now, with these two things - ownership and capital we will realise income or maximum production from the land. The capital will provide the farmer with a tractor, planter, trailer, with the engine and the pipes to irrigate the land, with the cash to buy the cows, with the cash to erect the sheds, with the cash to build the homestead on the farm. Now a farmer will be able to realise maximum production from his farm. High production means a high income for the farmer and he will be in a position to pay or to return the money he owes to the Land Bank. At the same time the national income for the Transkei will increase -that is, income of various people occupying the Transkei. With the increase of the national income it means an increase in revenue to the Government. You will remember that people who are getting high incomes pay tax according to their income, so the increase in the national income corresponds with the increase of revenue to the Government. You will remember that I said the loan could be utilized in the way which I illustrated - that is, the buying of tractors and so forth by the farmer. I want to repeat again and give figures and give an example of one farmer who would have obtained a loan from the Land Bank. He buys a tractor for R6 000, a plough for R300, a planter for R1 000, an engine with irrigation pipes for R5 000, a trailer for R1 200, a shed for R2 500, a house for R10 000. The total is R26 000. That is the assets of this farmer. That is what he possesses. This also goes to the credit of the country because when we look at the account Fixed Investment for the country, this man will count for R26 000. That goes to the benefit of the country when we total up the assets for the Transkei. Mr Chairman, I go further. We always talk about the industrialization of the Transkei. Yes, I agree, because these industries will provide work for our people, but the success of these industries, as was explained by the hon member for Maluti, depends on the farm. Everything (he placed an exception - I don't place any exception) everything depends on the farm. He said the mining industry does not depend on farming, but what do those people working in those mines, working in those factories eat? In order to produce they depend on the farm . Mr Chairman, I will make further illustrations because that was done by the hon member for Maluti. Take for instance the milling industry. The milling industry makes sugar from cane and the cane is obtained from the maize growers. I am just making a rough illustration to make this thing simple and digestible to the hon members. Mr Chairman, the emphasis of this talk is that a person should own the land. That will encourage him to produce. The second point is that a Land Bank which will provide him with capital should be established, then that is a guarantee for productivity. When productivity is guaranteed it is a guarantee for
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brand them. The cattle will be branded but will not be removed from the owner. The owner will still be allowed to use these cattle and the officials will keep on inspecting them to make sure they are safe. These cattle will be pledged as security just as the Fingoes will now have to pledge their title deeds. After the man has paid his debt that is the end of the pledge. Our financial transactions are based on cattle. Title deeds and such things are new to us. One should struggle from nothing and work himself up. A man who finds himself with a title deed has never struggled, but a man with cattle has earned those cattle the hard way and he will struggle very hard to keep himself in the position he is in. I shall now refer to the long term loan. Let us say a man wants to possess a tractor. He will have to pledge furniture or whatever he possesses. He has to pledge to such an extent that he obtains the loan. A man has to have something tangible. An upstart is not someone who can get a loan. If we act without circumspection the Bank, I am sure, will become bankrupt. I have already mentioned that the Bank will be a savings bank so they will be able to assist us also in loans. We shall be able to acquire businesses. Here is something else which is important. When the white people have put in a crop they insure that crop against hail or drought. We cannot do that because we have no money. If such a Bank comes into existence we shall be in a position to carry on, but at present if we lose our crops we are not able to carry on, whereas if the crops are insured the insurance company will send an agent to see that everything is in order and they will pay. Next year you will be able to start again. All the handicaps the black people suffer from are due to lack of money. Many a time the kraal heads have to go to the labour areas and there is no-one responsible at home. Modern seeds are so expensive that half a bag of maize seed costs as much as R20. Now you cannot afford the R20 for this hybrid seed so you have to plant your own homegrown seed - just mealies which do not deserve the name of seed. Then the drought comes and everything is lost. Such hybrid seed will even resist drought and in reaping you find that the crop is a sizeable one giving you something to smile about. Using our own mealies as seed the crop becomes poor, with low yields. What worries me is that we haven't the means. Implements and seeds are so expensive that there is no alternative but to go to the labour centres. This motion has been fully discussed, Mr Chairman, and our appeal is that the Government should come to our assistance and supply us with the requirements we have mentioned. The whole question hinges on money. CHIEF P. JOZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I did not intend to speak and have therefore made no preparation, but because this motion is of such great value I wish to say a few words. My hon Chief D. D. P. Ndamase made a clear explanation and opened the ears of those who could not hear. Similarly with the hon Mr Nota who listed amounts which we could have on loan. I can see some people in this House do not know how a farm is operated. It has been made out that even a beast can be pledged. (Laughter) It appears then that I may even place my furniture as security. Secondhand tractors cost from R2 000 and I am a person who uses tractors. Tractors with trailers can cost as much as R26 000. If you have to plough your land thoroughly you have to borrow a lot of money. We have already seen from experience that maize brings no profit. You get a lot money from vegetables. White people plant vegetables and sell them. In the Transkei there are good perennial rivers and it is time that we left our staple food of maize and used irrigation in our arable allotments. People may ask who are these people who will borrow money. In Umzimkulu there are many people who own farms and they are the people who will go for loans to buy implements and pipping for irrigation, so that we can plough our lands in all seasons summer and winter and make use of the rivers. In that way we can easily repay our loans to the Land Bank. I cannot by any stretch of imagination understand a man who has a small arable allotment applying for such a loan because he will not be in a position to repay it. He cannot pledge a beast to get a loan from the Land Bank. How can that happen? In what way? (Laughter)
You must not entertain any fears, because this is a very good motion. We in Umzimkulu will be the first people to apply for loans from that Land Bank. MR K. M. GUZANA: What was your crop last year? CHIEF JOZANA: If you want to know you can go to my home and get the information. (Laughter) I have reaped over 200 bags of mealies. MR GUZANA: What is 200 bags? CHIEF JOZANA: The mealies I reap only once a year does not help me at all. You should practise crop rotation and not only one type of crop. If we could obtain loans at Umzimkulu we would be prepared to plant vegetables. If you come and see the white farms across the Umzimkulu River in Natal and what they do with their farms in the planting of vegetables you would be surprised. Those white farmers do not sleep and snore but they get up and work. Do you think that women can work on a farm? I support this motion because we should have a Bank where we can get loans. I wish this motion should be put into operation immediately so that we can borrow money and make use of this money. MR GUZANA: Do you want to borrow money for lobolo? CHIEF JOZANA: I am too old now to get a second wife. (Laughter) If I had wanted one I should have married a long time ago. Mr Chairman, please hurry up with this motion and put it through so that my people should be able to get loans. This Bank will assist us now we have seen what the white farmers do. They have been successful on account of this Land Bank. CHAIRMAN: I shall now call upon the mover to reply. MR M. P. LUDIDI: Mr Chairman and hon members, I am happy to note the spirit of the House as they discussed this motion. It shows that the subject matter is something desirable. In summing up I will mention certain points raised by various hon members who took part in the discussion. The hon member for Qumbu asked how this Bank will be formed and how it will function. It was then that I realised we were in agreement on the motion but that certain points needed clarification. The hon chief from Ngqeleni explained this and described how the Bank could be formed by the Government. Land is so important that the Government should pay special heed to the use of the land by the people. We understand that in the Republic, though people hold title deeds for their land, the law still regulates how those farms should be managed. Even if a farmer has title to the land he has no right to sell portion of that farm. The law forbids that. We say the Government should interest themselves in this question and establish a Bank of this nature. The hon member for Mount Ayliff stressed the point of ownership. I think ownership in the Transkei is something which the people of the Transkei desire, but which they lack. When the hon members discuss ownership one feels they are discussing something dear to their hearts. A Bank of this kind will therefore not function properly in the Transkei unless ownership of the land is granted prior to the establishment of the Bank. The factors which determine progress in industry or any other field depend entirely on the form of land tenure. I mentioned that the question of land onwership is one which is now rising almost above our understanding. When we become independent we must be able to say we shall feed the people of the Transkei. The hon Mr Nota pointed out that even the people working in the mines have to be sustained by agricultural produce, thus, Mr Chairman, I say "Thank you" to those hon members who supported this motion. I hope the Government will consider this motion and treat it as a matter of urgency. It will not only help the farmers but it will hasten a decision on land tenure. Question put and motion carried unanimously. REPORT BACK ON MOTIONS PASSED BY LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY MR M. P. LUDIDI: Mr Chairman and hon members , I move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of reporting on the destiny of every motion passed by this House and that such a report or reports should be tabled in this House."
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ter) You may laugh at this, but it is serious.. It is more dangerous than planning revolutions and such things. If in a local beer-drink you are accused of being a liar you don't take that seriously, but it goes a long way to damage your reputation. Suppose you are a member of parliament or a Minister and people discuss you and you are spoken of as a liar and unreliable, this lowers the dignity of representatives of the people in this House, it does not matter to which party they belong. I come now to a very important point and I do not want to be misinterpreted I am here to carry to this Government the views of the people as expressed in their various localities. I do not think the man in the street is brave enough to aproach a Cabinet Minister and point out his shortcomings to him, but people come to us and say: You tell us the Ministers are responsible, but you are a brother of that Minister - I don't understand you. Let us say a member of parliament takes up a certain matter with a department. You meet the Minister concerned and you are accompanied by someone. The Minister will just say our comments have been noted and a reply will follow in due course. As soon as you leave the office it is forgotten and that is what the people outside feel. Farseeing representatives therefore, on approaching a problem, bring the people concerned to the office of the Minister and in the presence of these people state the difficulty to the Minister, so even if that matter fails the member extricates himself. He says: You heard me speak to the Minister. That is the position now, Mr Chairman, even with the motions which are passed by this House. We want to be informed that a motion which was passed in this House is receiving attention and that one did not succeed and another one succeeded to this extent. The people are not interested in whether a motion was passed or not. They want to see results to show that the subject matter of the motion is being effected. We moved a motion here a year or two ago in connection with roads which are within the jurisdiction of the tribal authorities. That motion was passed unanimously by this House, It was moved and passed that roads branching from main roads to schools, trading stores, chiefs' places, clinics, etc, should be taken over by the administration. The people feel that these roads should be under the administration because they are not satisfied with what obtains in tribal authority circles. We do not know what happened to it. We do not know whether the motion has been accepted by the administration. We know nothing. (Laughter) I said we must be serious about this, hon members. There are people who will always misconstrue things. I am happy that the hon the Minister of Agriculture is present and as he is here he is representing the Cabinet. I know there are people who will say that this motion is a slur on the Cabinet and so on, but that is not the position. The Ministers are a go-between. Members of parliament are elected by the people and there are various departments. Now, the bridge between the members of parliament and the people consists of the Ministers. The Cabinet determines the fate of all the motions passed by this House. MR K. M. GUZANA: Joint responsibility. MR LUDIDI: Well, a person who has no idea of administration will say that the Ministers are to blame. The Chief Whip says we want to sow seeds, but by this motion we are trying to right a wrong. We are trying to protect ourselves as members of parliament and that includes also the members of the Opposition. We are also protecting the Executive the members of the Cabinet who were elected by us. Mr Chairman, I do not wish to confuse people with this motion. All we require is that the destiny of motions should be tabled in this House. A motion is discussed here, passed unanimously sent to the Executive. The Executive rejects the motion and they must report to us so that we have something to say to the people. That is the connecting link between the electorate and the administration. MR J. M. DUMALISILE: What happens in the Republican Government? MR LUDIDI: With these words, Mr Chairman, I move that this House should be informed of the fate of every motion passed in this House at a subsequent session. CHIEF H. Z. ZULU: I second the motion. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon
Mr Chairman, I am certain the House is keen on this motion. It is very straightforward. What we want is that we should find out what happens to all the motions which we have been asked by the people to move here. We should be told the outcome of all these motions. It is very important even when the motion has been passed and the people see it put into effect. There are many motions passed by this House and after some time these motions are re-introduced because we do not know what has been done about them by the Cabinet and other authorities. I am sorry the Cabinet Ministers are not present as I move this motion. M/AGRICULTURE: On a point of correction, Mr Chairman. I am here. MEMBERS: You are not the Cabinet. CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR LUDIDI: I am happy that the hon the Minister of Agriculture is present and I am certain that we shall question the Cabinet if we are not satisfied. This has happened if one watches the trend in this House, and it happens partly because they do not report on these motions. We introduce a motion, it is discussed and carried unanimously and then it goes to the Cabinet. Now we have to go to the electorate and report. All we report is that we moved the motion and the motion was discussed and carried. It is far more important to see what happens after the motion has been carried by this House. We do not know what to say to the people now. There are also promises which are never fulfilled and even if we could contribute to the progress of the Transkei the people will not elect us again, competent as we may be. When we introduce motions here we are not sure as to the suitability or not of a motion administratively. We discussed a motion at the caucus and introduce it to the House. The motion is discussed and carried. It reaches Cabinet level and is declared impracticable. The Cabinet gives no reason why the motion is declared impracticable and the member has to take the trouble to approach the clerks concerned. When we go to the clerks we find they are not very willing to supply information. The Ministers themselves say the clerks are very difficult. They show no respect and they drink to excess. Many times we go to the office, see the clerks and we come away disappointed. The Ministers are not without blame. There is much which is done behind the administrative curtain. One hon member pointed out that the township at Butterworth is being run by a multiplicity or authorities. The magistrate has a say, the Transkei Township Board has a say, the Bantu Trust, the Municipality, the XDC - all those authorities have a say in the administration. GOVT MEMBER: And the chiefs. MR LUDIDI: And the chiefs as well. The hon member says the town is his. Let us say something goes wrong and the residents there would like to discuss a question with the authorities concerned. Supposing a motion is carried and taken to the higher authorities, the people want to know what has happened. You go to the Municipality and they refer you to the XDC. The XDC says the right office to go to is the Townships Board. The Townships Board will tell you - no, the magistrate knows better, and the magistrate tells you the chief of the area is Chief Zulu and the chief will say you must go to the police. (Laughter) You get nowhere in the end and you get no satisfaction. Now, this is happening in this Legislative Assembly and the departments are responsible. I have told you a motion is carried unanimously and we want to find out what has happened. We aproach the clerks to make inquiries sometimes after the session is over, but the clerks know practically nothing about these things. He tells you you are a member of parliament and should know better than he because he is only a clerk. These people hide behind very thin curtains. Mr Chairman, I shall not digress from the motion but I wish to explain what this is all about. What we require is a report of what actually happens when these motions have been passed by this House. Some people may say that reports appear in the Hansard but it all boils down to one thing - that we should know the fate of these motions. To my mind and to many others I would say this is most important. When people regard you as unreliable and a liar, that is dangerous. (Laugh-
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a question to the hon the Leader of the Oposition. There are delicate matters which the Cabinet has to consider, sometimes arising from these motions .... MR GUZANA: Are you discussing? MR LUDIDI: I am leading up to my question. Certain matters are sometimes disclosed after years. Now, how should the Cabinet behave in matters of secrecy? MR GUZANA: Where matters of State are so secret that were they to be revealed the State would be in danger then they are bound by the ethics of secrecy, but I want to know what is secret about asking the Government to raise the wages of the labourers to R2 a day. What is secret about that? What is secret about asking the Government to construct bridges? What is secret about asking this Government to make representations to the Republican Government to relax influx control regulations? And there are a number of other multifarious issues which we have raised here which affect the voters themselves. MR C. DIKO: Are you supporting the motion? MR GUZANA: The hon member for Tabankulu asks me if I am supporting the motion. This motion is not a big log that I can put on my shoulder. (Laughter) MR DIKO : Are you supporting it? MR GUZANA: That is the only way in which you can see a person supporting a motion. I say then this secrecy is dangerous. It is as dangerous as the secrecy which surrounds the deliberations of the highest Com munist body in Russia. (Interjections) Let me give you an illustration in a lighter vein. D/CHAIRMAN: There is too much noise here, hon members. MR GUZANA: During the 1939/45 war Sir Winston Churchill visited the President of the United States to discuss matters of military strategy. M/AGRICULTURE: I think I will move the adjournment now. (Laughter) MR GUZANA: I have ten minutes more. He discussed matters of great importance with the President, relating to the conduct of the war, on which they disagreed. The Prime Minister of Great Britain went to the bathroom the following morning and after having a good shower came out in his birthday suit to walk back to his room. (Laughter) M/AGRICULTURE: What was the reason? MR GUZANA: As he walked along in his natural suit he bumped into the President of the United States. Sir Winston's remark was this: "Now you see, Mr President, the Prime Minister of Great Britain has nothing to hide from the President of the United States." (Laughter) And so we say that we need some candour from our Executive, M/AGRICULTURE : But you haven't even asked for it. It is only now MR GUZANA: This is an obligation which does not need to be awakened by asking a question. It is the responsibility of the hon Minister to make a report to this House. M/AGRICULTURE : There is no need to quarrel over it. MR GUZANA: And so the secrecy has gone on to envelope , to encompass many other important matters of State. In 1974 this House by a majority decided on independence and since then hon members, or some hon members of this Government, have been to Pretoria for consultations, have been to Cape Town for consultations, and we know not a jot or title of what has been discussed in those places, so that as they have ignored their duty to report to this House on motions passed by this House this has extended to a veil of secrecy on State matters which affect you, me and the next person and the person in the street, and not a jot of information has been made available. M/AGRICULTURE: Can you deny that the recess committee ... MR GUZANA: I am on that committee, so don't ask me those questions. I speak because I know that I don't know what is said in Cape Town and what is said in Pretoria when some of the members of the Executive go there. M/AGRICULTURE : Do you want details? MR GUZANA : I say you are therefore destroying the confidence which the people have placed in you by not reporting back to this House on all matters which have been passed through this House for imple-
members, let nobody's heart go pit-a-pat just because I stand to speak to this motion. In other words, I support the motion fully because it is a motion of no confidence in the Government. (Laughter) Now we begin to see some light when this reaction takes place and we realise that the Government members are beginning to see that the Government is failing dismally. MR K. G. NOTA: We shall withdraw this motion now. MR GUZANA: In effect, put bluntly the governing party is asking the Executive what is happening to the decision of this House, and this is a pertinent question which is long ovrdue, for since 1964, I do not think we have had any report on any motions on any matter passed here except about two or three replies. The failure of the Government or the Ministers to give us the results of these motions is indicative of the fact that after we rise the Cabinet has no time whatsoever for the expressed wishes of the people, expressed here through their representatives. The Cabinet's indiference is manifested by their failure to attend here when we discuss these motions. They merely see the written word and they do not get any of the spirit behind those words a spirit which is manifested when an hon member speaks to a motion. And so , under this motion we may well ask the question: Where are the hon Ministers: Where have they been during this session? How are they listening to the spirit of the people as expressed in words here by their representatives? There is a big credibility gap growing between the Executive and the Legislative members, between the legislative members and the electorate so much so that it is impossible for government policy to filter adequately through this Assembly down to the voter; and now the voter and now the member of the Legislative Assembly have come to the conclusion that the Cabinet is there for itself, to serve its own purposes and to feather their own nests. There is nothing so frustrating, nothing which makes you feel more ineffectual than when you go back to the voters and they ask you what is the outcome of this or that motion, and all you can do is to play a Jekyll and Hyde rôle and say you hope the Minister is going to do something about it. But nothing ever happens. Then again, some of these motions and probably 60% of them have requested this Cabinet to make representation to the Republican Government and in view of the fact that the Cabinet never reports back to this House we are led to believe that they are political cowards, afraid to go to Pretoria and put the Transkeians' point of view before the Minister of Bantu Administration and Develoment or the Prime Minister, Mr Vorster. We If indeed they are executive officers, at least let them believe that the Republican Government, if ever it learns of these motions, replies to this Cabinet but this Cabinet is afraid to pass on the reply to us. In other words, we begin therefore to question the integrity of the personnel which forms the Executive for the simple reason that they do not pass on the information to us. execute ("execute" - perform an act that can be seen) or report that they cannot execute that act, then we know where we are. I am afraid I get the impression that all these motions are sent to an incinerator and that is the end of it all, but there is another sinister factor attaching to this failure of the Government to report to this Assembly. Once a veil of secrecy surrounds the deliberations of an executive body then you feel that something wrong is going on. M/AGRICULTURE : They are sworn to secrecy, hon member. MR GUZANA: You get these statements that it is not in the interests of the public to know, it is not policy to divulge the information, and all such highfalluting expressions which hide the fact that these people are working as a secret body which will not take this Lesgislative Assembly into its confidence.. M/AGRICULTURE : We swear to secrecy right before you here. MR GUZANA: The hon the Minister of Agricul ture interjects that right before us they are sworn to secrecy, but that pledge of secrecy does not extend to your responsibility to this House. You cannot, as a messenger, be more secretive than you have to be to the person who gives you the message. (Laughter) M/AGRICULTURE : That depends. MR M. P. LUDIDI: Mr Chairman, I wish to put
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Section 70 of the Act empowers me to request the holder of a driver's licence who is a source of danger to the public to submit himself to an examination to test his competence to drive the type of vehicle for which he holds a driver's licence. As the present section makes no provision as to who should supply the vehicle on which the suspect should be tested on, this anomaly is now being rectified by prescribing that the person to be examined should supply the vehicle. The contents of clause 4 are quite clear and I need not elaborate on this item. The general speed limits of 60km/h on urban roads and 90km/h on rural roads are detrimental to the police, ambulances and firefighting units. It is thus necessary that the aforementioned should be exempted from the prescriptions of a set speed limit in cases where duties and emergency require them to travel at high speeds. However, to safeguard the public, it will be a prerequisite that such vehicles be fitted with devices making audible sounds to make them recognisable to the general public. Mr Chairman, you will recall that in the previous years of my being the Minister of Roads and Works I had the privilege of introducing legislation to combat drunken driving on our roads. It now appears to me, according to certain court decisions, that some of these culprits have come to the conclusion that a specimen of blood can only be taken from a certain part of the body and if the doctor takes it from any other part they go out scot-free. For these wise persons I can today doubt that blood remains the same whether it be taken from the head or small toe. So to assist these drunken drivers in solving their problem and doubt, I propose that a specimen of blood for testing alcohol concentration be taken from any part of the body of a driver who is charged for drunken driving. Certain types of mass-measuring bridges and massmeters are not calibrated by an assizer, thus when a transgressor is charged for overloading his vehicle, he challenges the correctness of the said equipment and as a rule the court discharges him. The amendment now transfers the onus onto the transgressor to prove that the mass-measuring bridge or massmeter is not correct. In many cases where summons are issued for the contravention of the prescriptions of Act, the accused states that he was not the driver of the vehicles at the time of the contravention and consequently he is discharged. With the proposed amendment contained in clause 9 it will be presumed that the owner was the driver of the vehicle until the contrary is proved. In clause 10 the matter of vehicles not complying with the provisions of the Act are dealt with. These types of vehicles are usually described as abnormal vehicles or vehicles with abnormal loads which may not be operated or conveyed on a public road without a permit from the Minister. I am convinced that we are all aware of the fact that these abnormal vehicles with their abnormal loads are the cause of congestion and to a large extent responsible for the extensive damage to our roads and bridges. I may quote that the National Institute for Road Research has done extensive research work as regards the damaging effect that these vehicles have on roads. A standard policy has been laid down by them and accepted by other countries. The policy prescribes a formula whereby the axle mass loads are calculated and according to the figures obtained a fee is levied per single axle per kilometre travelled. The fee thus collected compensates for the damage to the road pavement. Mr Chairman, I have no doubt that this Bill will receive the wholehearted support of all members of this House and I, therefore, move that the Bill be read a second time. M/INTERIOR: I second, Mr Chairman. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon members, I move that this debate be adjourned in order to enable the hon the Minister of the Interior to announce the results of the elections in the Glen Grey and Herschel constituencies. M/AGRICULTURE: I second. Agreed to. The debate was adjourned, ANNOUNCEMENT Mr Chairman and hon members, M/INTERIOR: the following members have been elected in the Glen
mentation by the Executive. Now there has grown a further tendency which is quite frightening in all governments which profess to be democratic, and this corruption seems to get hold of those Executives which enjoy an inordinate majority in Legislative Assemblies. The Executive begins to feel that it is not responsible to any body, even to the Legislative Assembly. It begins to take unto itself executive powers in relation to matters which should be decided by this House and not by themselves as an Executive. There is therefore a growth of executive arrogance which is insufferable. They are superior to all else and they know all and they can do all for all people without accounting to anyone. Mr Chairman, I move an adjournment at this stage. The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday, 30 April 1976.
FRIDAY, 30 APRIL 1976
Prayers were read. The minutes of the preious day were taken as read and confirmed .
ANNOUNCEMENTS
CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon members, you will note that practically all the hon members of this House are required to attend some meetings because of the coming celebrations for independence, so I do not think it is necessary for this House all the time to make an announcement that these members should be excused. This should be an arrangement between them and the Secretary of the House. These are official meetings held in the districts and I think it should be noted that they should not lose their allowances. The hon members for Qumbu came to me this morning to say they attended a meeting yesterday and I do not think it is necessary at all for these people to come to the Chief Minister. It should be an arrangement between your office and the particular individual. Mr Chairman and hon members, at 1 p.m. we request that we adjourn today as members will be getting their envelopes this morning and they would like to do some shopping. Thank you, Mr Chairman. ROAD TRAFFIC AMENDMENT BILL: SECOND READING M/ROADS AND WORKS: Mr Chairman, Honourable Paramount Chiefs and Honourable members, this is a very short bill and there is nothing contentious in it. With the ever increasing of private and public traffic on our roads, it necessitates the amendment to the Act from time to time so as to conform with Transkeian requirements. The principles involved in the Bill are to make provisions for certain prescriptions which were not embodied in the original Act. My concern here is to elucidate on the prescriptions with a view to clarifying the various clauses to the members of this House. I shall, on passing, be very brief on some clauses. Negotiations regarding the merging of the South African Railways Motor Transport Services with the envisaged Transkeian department of Transport have reached an advanced stage, and with a view to the exemptions enjoyed by the S.A.R. accorded to them in terms of the Road Traffic Ordinance No. 21 of 1966, it is my intention, taking into consideration that the Act already makes provision for exemption from paying licence fees by the S.A.R. and certain bodies to also extend the function of issuing learners' and drivers' licences as well as certificates of fitness to Government departments and to a Statutory body such as the Transkeian Development Corporation for drivers in their employ and for vehicles owned by them. I may mention for the information of the members of this House that drivers' licences issued in terms of this clause will not allow a driver to drive a vehicle other than a vehicle owned by the Government or Statutory body, and on termination of employment the licence must be surrendered. 204.
Grey district:1. Mr Edward Zamayedwa Booi 2. Mr Julius Mvumbi Mbalo 3. Mr David Tezapi The following are the elected members for the Herschel district :1. Mr Simon Petros Bhurali 2. Mr Sydney Phoofolo Kakudi CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, I hope that your office will as soon as possible advise these members telephonically to be present on 3 May so that when we consider the draft bill for the Transkeian Constitution these districts should be fully represented . Because of this pleasant news, Chairman, I move that the House adjourn until 11 a.m. on Monday so that my Party can go and celebrate. Agreed to. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 3 May 1976.
sidered by the Assembly. Mr Chairman, I move that the bill be now read a first time. M/HEALTH : I second. Agreed to. The bill was read a first time. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, this bill will be read the second time on Tuesday, 4 May, or so soon thereafter. DEEDS REGISTRY AMENDMENT BILL: FIRST READING CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon members, I lay upon the table a copy of the Transkei Deeds Registry Amendment Bill and I move that the bill be now read a first time. M/EDUCATION : I second. Agreed to. The bill was read a first time. CHIEF MINISTER : The second reading of the bill will be on 4 May, Mr Chairman, or so soon thereafter.
MONDAY, 3 MAY 1976. Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
EXTENSION OF APPLICATION OF TRANSKEIAN LAWS BILL : FIRST READNG
ADMINISTRATION OF OATH
CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon members, I lay upon the table a copy of the Extension of the Application of Transkeian Laws Bill and I move that the bill be read a first time. M/HEALTH: I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. The bill was read a first time. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, the second reading of the bill will be on 4 May or so soon thereafter.
CHAIRMAN : Hon members, I wish to advise the House that the following new members whose success in the recent by-election was announced on Friday, 30 April 1976, have arrived to take their seats in respect of the following two districts :(a) Glen Grey:(1) Zamayedwa Edward Booi (2) Mvumbi Julius Mbalo (3) David Tezapi
ROAD TRAFFIC AMENDMENT BILL: SECOND READING
(b) Herschel :(1) Simon Petros Bhurali (2) Phoofolo Sydney Kakudi
The debate was resumed. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, this side of the House is not opposing this amendment to the Transkei Road Traffic Act. Section I of the bill relates to authority being extended to the S.A. Railways and Harbours Administration and other statutory bodies in order that they should issue either a learner's or a driver's licence to an employee of either the SAR & H Administration or a statutory body. One would like to know what statutory bodies are envisaged under this provision. I am quite sure that this is a practice which has been followed by the Republican Government in connection with the employees of the SAR & H Administration and in respect of people serving as drivers under statutory bodies. It would be of some assistance to this House if the hon Minister would name specifically some of the statutory bodies he has in mind. One wonders also why there should be authority vested in these departments and statutory bodies to issue these licences when there are constituted bodies responsible for issuing learners' licences and drivers' licences to the public. Is the intention to circumvent the very stringent requirements before a person obtains a driver's licence or a learner's licence? I ask this question because the SAR & H Administration could easily refer its prospective drivers to the bodies responsible for issuing learners' and drivers' licences. One gets the impression that for administrative purposes this is a short-cut method whereby these bodies can get its employees on to the road to drive vehicles, and this may create quite a hazard on the roads if a body other than the constituted body is given the authority and the power to issue these licences . Section 2 of this bill places the onus on a person who has a licence to be tested again and he has to provide the vehicle on which he has to be tested. Whilst there is provision for him to explain away his failure to provide a motor vehicle, I can imagine quite a lot of hardship where an employee does not own a car, nor can he borrow a car in order to be tested. One would have thought that these statutory bodies would take it upon themselves to provide a vehicle on which the person can be tested. Section 4 66 includes new words in the old section 99 or or a road designating public any of purpose the for portion thereof as a public road of a particular class and I believe this is long overdue because
Will these members now come forward, escorted by two members of the House, to take the oath to uphold the Constitution of the Transkei. The five new members took the oath before the Chairman of the House. TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon members, I lay upon the table the Report of the Recess Committee which was appointed by this House during the 1974 session to consider various matters pertaining to the Constitution of an independent Transkei, which matters will appear in the report and , Sir, this report has not been completely signed by the members of the recess committee but I hope that this process of attaching signatures will be completed while the report is with the Secretary. Attached to this report is the Draft Constitution of the Transkei. This is not going to be considered as a bill as it is a draft bill. We will just consider it by way of motion in order to avail the hon members of the opportunity to discuss the bill which wil be placed before the Legislative Assembly on 26 October as a bill. On that day we shall proceed with the bill through all the stages within 15 minutes, if it is possible to do so. Sir, because of the short notice which has been given to the hon members for Herschel and Lady Frere we shall postpone the discussion on this motion which I need not move, Mr Chairman, but it should be on the agenda that tomorrow we shall consider this draft bill. When we enter the House tomorrow morning all the members of the recess committee will sit on your righthand side, Sir. LIQUOR AMENDMENT BILL
: FIRST READING
CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon members, in the absence of the hon the Minister of Justice I lay upon the table a copy of the Transkei Liquor Amendment Bill. In view of the fact that the bill has financial implications falling within the purview of section 53 of the Transkei Constitution Act 1963 I now table a recommendation by the Minister of Finance in terms of rule 128(b) that the bill be con205 .
portions of roads can well be suitable or unsuitable for use by particular classes of traffic. One would be happy if the hon the Minister of Roads would explain the reason behind providing that this section should be retrospective in effect to the 1st day of October 1972. It is quite correct that vehicles like ambulances and police vehicles should have the right of way in an emergency. Now, I am thinking of a situation where a police officer commandeers a private car for purposes of pursuing an escaping offender. Would the ordinary horn or hooter of a car in such circumstances be accepted as making the prescribed sound? Such a situation may well arise and the vehicle, whilst doing duty officially, will not have the device which emits the presccribed sound . Section 6 deals with the confiscation and the disposal of vehicles abandoned either on the road or in places where vehicles are prohibited from being parked. It is now being provided that instead of allowing a period of three months after the vehicle has been removed from a public road we only provide for a month, and it is assumed that the officials - the traffic officers - will be able to trace the owner of the vehicle within a period of one month after removing it to a place of custody. Considering the rural population of the Transkei one would like to know whether or not there is wisdom in reducing the period during which the owner has to be traced from three months to one month. There is difficiulty in communication; telephonic communication is not what it should be ; and there are places which are not easily accessible to enable an official to trace the owner. I would strongly recommend that the period of three months be retained. I believe the idea is merely to reimburse the local authority which has expended money in removing the vehicle and keeping it in custody, but at the same time we must have regard for the interests of the owner of the vehicle who may not have given permission to the person to drive the vehicle and abandon it where it was collected by the traffic officer. Now, the local authority is being given the power to dispose of the vehicle after the expiry of the tracing period and the money is forfeited to such authority. Vehicles are bought either for cash or under a hire-purchase agreement or under a lease agreement or under a suspensive sales agreement, and under most of these agreements the ownership still vests with the seller and not with the buyer and therefore a situation may arise where the financial interest of the seller is jeopardized by the provision that the money realised in selling the vehicle accrues or is forfeited to a local authority. One would like to know, Mr Minister of Roads, if I may draw your attention, as to whether or not where the ownership of a vehicle still vests with the seller the seller can claim that amount which has been forfeited to the local authority by reason of the fact that the person who abandoned the car, or the owner in terms of the agreement, has not been traced. Imagine a car bought in Cape Town and abandoned in Umtata, and how difficult it is for the firm having a suspensive sales agreement in Cape Town to trace the person to whom the car has been sold. In fact, he may trace it after the vehicle has been disposed of and the proceeds forfeited to the local authority. Can the seller recover what has been forfeited to the local authority? I would be happy if the hon the Minister of Roads could react positively to this point. I am no champion of the drunken driver - not by any means but I am worried by the provision in section 7 of this bill wherein it is provided that if a person allegedly found driving a vehicle under the influence of liquor has had a blood sample taken out of his body within two hours after the accident, the person will have been presumed to have driven the vehicle with an alcohol content in his blood of more than 0,08. I can imagine a situation such as this arising : I am invited by the Chief Minister to a party at the Transkei Hotel and there I take some champagne, or let us say whiskey for that matter, and within 15 minutes after consuming two tots of whiskey I go out and drive my vehicle on my way home. A traffic officer stops me and smells liquor on my breath. He immediately books me for driving under the influence of liquor and a blood sample is taken out of my body. It may well be that at the time he stopped me the alcohol content in my blood was less than 0,08 because the alcohol has not
been absorbed into the bloodstream and, strictly speaking, at the time I am stopped my alcohol content was less than 0,08. I am kept at the charge office for an hour before my blood sample is taken and the alcohol in the stomach has now been absorbed into my bloodstream so that the alcohol content an hour after I have been stopped is now more than 0,08. Is this not really making a criminal out of a man who at the time of the arrest had not in fact breached this provision of section 7? I do not know at what rate alcohol passes from the stomach into the bloodstream, but I presume that this must have been a matter upon which the hon Minister has spent time and has investigated, but as ordinary Mr Citizen I know a person becomes more and more drunk from the liquor he consumes because the alcohol content is increasing by absorption into his bloodstream. If indeed I am arrested when the alcohol content is less than the prescribed maximum, why should I be convicted? Convicted because the district surgeon, probably in collusion with the police, has delayed a whole hour in order that the alcohol should be absorbed into the bloodstream to give a reading of more than 0,08. The hon the Minister of Education tells me that we should not drink when we are going to drive. Well, if that is so, let us have dry parties by all means and not have any liquor at all at these parties. (Laughter) But this Government does licence people to sell liquor and to supply liquor and thinks it is prestigious to have liquor at table, but we must be careful not to create a situation where we take advantage of people's taste for liquor to charge them, especially__in the circumstances illustrated by my example. These are the comments which I felt we should make, Mr Chairman, and I will be happy if the hon the Minister of Roads and Works would react positively to these queries and explain away our concern on the issues raised. The fact that we have to conform and be like the Republic should not close our eyes to the realities of the rural community as against a city population, and this should be reflected in our legislation. Thank you, Mr Chairman. M/ROADS: Mr Chairman and hon members, life is the same whether it is in the rural areas or the cities. What the amendment seeks to do is to protect the innocent citizen. MR GUZANA: You don't say the innocent driver who has not yet a high alcohol content. He is quite innocent. M/ROADS: I will refer to a few points raised by the hon the Leader of the Opposition. Among other things he seeks to know what statutory body the bill may be referring to. Sir, I think I can answer you by quoting the TDC as one statutory body.
MR GUZANA: The Top Dog Council, is it? (Laughter) M/ROADS: The Transkei Development Corporation. In connection with a person who is considered and who is found to be a bit dangerous and has to be re-tested, I don't think it would be wise of the department to provide a vehicle on which to be tested. The onus therefore is placed on him to provide the vehicle. As a matter of fact, there are many peole who become careless after they have been given licences. MR GUZANA: But the lawcourts can deal with them. M/ROADS: But why must the department be burdened with such people? MR GUZANA: Because it employed him.. M/ROADS: To proceed, in connection with the abandoned cars, hon members, I think from now on the sellers of cars are going to know the laws pertaining to the Transkei and that it is one month and not three months. MR GUZANA: That is why we are complaining. M/ROADS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR GUZANA: What about the alcohol content? M/ROADS: I move that the bill be read a scond time. Agreed to. The bill was read a second time. M/ROADS: Mr Chairman, the committee stage will be on Tuesday, 4 May, or so soon thereafter. 206.
REPORT BACK ON MOTIONS PASSED BY LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY
The debate was resumed. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon members, before you allow the hon the Leader of the Opposition to continue his debate on this matter I wish to make an explanation which may possibly cut this debate short. I do not think we are here to make political capital on matters which are factual and unknown to the hon members of this House. I have, Sir, as Chief Minister of the Transkei Cabinet laid upon the table reports on replies to resolutions on motions which have been placed before this House on several occasions. I cannot lay a report on anything which I have not received from the Republican Government, but on motions which are directed towards the Government of the Transkei I have laid these replies on your table. It is highly probable, Sir, that the hon member, being new to this Assembly with only two or three years' service, has not grasped the procedure as it is known. I am certain that on hearing this explanation he will immediately stand up and withdraw this motion. (Laughter) Mr Chairman, I am appealing to you to allow the hon member to withdraw the motion. M/EDUCATION : May I support him, Mr Chairman. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, I am speaking to this motion and I will not have it withdrawn. The hon member who brought it to this House must not just run out with a motion that is before us, otherwise we are going to accuse him of having been intimidated. (Laughter) MR M. P. LUDIDI: On a point of order, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman and hon members of the Legislative Assembly, I hope the members, especially the hon the Leader of the Opposition, will understand that this is not a question of intimidation. MR GUZANA: What is it then? MR LUDIDI: The explanation has been submitted to this House by the hon the Chief Minister and ,as far as I am concerned this is what I sought by means of the motion. MR GUZANA: It is not what we sought. MR LUDIDI: I was totally ignorant that there are some reports tabled. MR GUZANA: For the last three years you have had none. MR LUDIDI: In view of that explanation, Mr Chairman, I stand up to withdraw the motion. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN : Hon members, accordingly this . motion is withdrawn. Motion withdrawn. CHAIRMAN: Hon members, there are new members who have arrived in this House and they have not been given their respective positions, so therefore the House will have to adjourn until 12.20 p.m. The Assembly adjourned. The Assembly resumed. SUGGESTED MEASURES FOR PREVENTION OF STOCK THEFT CHIEF D. D. P. NDAMASE: Mr Chairman and hon members , I move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of:(a) creating a stock theft police mobile unit stationed in Umtata; (b) purchasing a helicopter to be used by this mobile unit where necessary; (c) making legislation forcing stock owners to earmark and/or brand their stock." Mr Chairman, this motion is one which was suggested to me by the people who have been worried by the prevalence of stock theft. Stock thieves are generally nicknamed "nephews ". I will be sorry if anyone takes offence by what I say about nephews. The people have suggested this motion because they think it will afford some protection against the prevalence of stock theft. The people who sent me must be a mixed society because I am sure that even some of the people who suggested this are stock thieves themselves, but one can never tell who is or is not a stock thief. Stock theft is rife in the Transkei. When you trace stock 207.
stolen from Pondoland you will find you can trace it to areas as far off as Cofimvaba. Through Western and Eastern Pondoland there is a network of stock thieves. Stock is removed from an area, say, in Ngqeleni and then stock from another area is brought in to fill up the gap created by these thefts. There are masterminds behind this activity and it is extremely difficult to trace stolen stock because the thieves are so well organized that they use vehicles to remove the stolen stock. Certain stock was missing from Libode and the police were informed immediately afterwards, but it was impossible for them to trace the stock because it was clear it had been removed by fast-moving transport. Some of the chiefs and headmen are suspected of working in collaboration with these thieves. People actually say that some of the headmen are thieves themselves. Some time ago chiefs and headmen used to assist the people in tracing stolen stock but today that is not the position. Headmen often warn the thieves. The headmen and chiefs are not prepared to expose stock theft now because even a stray beast will be used towards the purchase of a car, for example, for the chief. People say they are surprised that their chiefs and headmen are not keen on suppressing stock theft because sometimes the chiefs appeal to the people to contribute towards the purchase of a car for the chief and a man will often contribute by selling a beast, but if his cattle are stolen he has nothing to contribute. The question is: Why should the chief be lackadaisical when that beast is lost and not show concern? It is customary in Pondoland and other places that a chief has an important guest at his kraal and he appeals to one of his subjects to assist him with the provision of an ox or hamel. These chiefs and headmen are not keen on preventing stock theft now and the people want to know why they are not keen. One chief in my own area says: If you will not give me beer here I will send my young men to visit you. Sometimes we refer to the Mbombela as stock thieves. One young man said to the chief that he would go back barefoot, and that actually happened. Let me now refer to the police. One sympathizes sometimes with the police. People report cases of stock theft to a headman and a keen headman will report it to the police. The police_want to know if a diligent search has been made. Say a group of men followed the stock to a neighbouring locality and on reaching that locality they are faced with a group of hostile people. If they go to the police, the police will not take action until someone has been killed. People say the police we have now are not the type who will uphold law and order. The police sometimes say they will follow up the report but they have no transport available. I was talking to one station commander only on Saturday and he told me no matter what report they receive now they cannot follow it up because they haven't a single vehicle.. I could read from that policeman that he thought the Government was not active enough in making vehicles available or in repairing those in service. Sometimes the police go out and follow up stock and actually impound some stock, small or large, but it often happens that that stock is stolen out of the pound. The police are expected to guard that stock and people now begin to say they think the police are collaborating with the stock thieves. People now feel that a mobile unit based in Umtata would be of service, because one would just telephone from the district and the mobile unit would be put into action straight away. Let us say_stock is removed from Ngqeleni to Mqanduli district. People searching for this lost stock have actually seen the stock in Mqanduli district. They go to the Ngqeleni police who say they must go to the Mqanduli police because it is in their area of jurisdiction. This man has no transport and the cattle will be removed to Queenstown before anything can be done. The people feel that a mobile unit would be effective. The vehicles which will constitute the unit will be determined by those in authority. Sometimes people in the various districts approach their local police but when they approach the Umtata police there is action. One might question why we even suggest a helicopter. The people in my area know there are places which are impossible to reach by van. There are secret places where stolen stock and horses are kept. You will find a stock kraal in the middle of the forest and it has been used for years because the manure has piled up. A helicopter
Minister of Finance, so I implore all members of the House to be seated by 2.15 this afternoon. The Assembly adjourned.
would spot these places and would be of great assistance. If the people in a helicopter can spot a dagga field in a dense forest, how much more easily will they be able to spot cattle there. Besides patrolling, the helicopter could be used for other purposes as well in the Transkei. I now come to the most difficult part of the motion. Hon members may say there is a multiplicity of legislation already and I am adding to it by suggesting the compulsory branding or earmarking of stock. We are giving the police an impossible task because a man will say this heifer belongs to him and the police ask how he can prove it is his when there is no brand or earmark. It places the police in an impossible position. The man will say it is his heifer, but without a brand what is the position? The heifer has no earmark or brand and it is amongst the cattle of the suspected thief. What magistrate would decide the beast did not belong to the thief if there are no distinguishing marks and it is with his cattle? Those people should brand their beasts because otherwise they are taking a chance by not branding of assisting these thieving elements. What do you suggest then in regard to this branding or earmarking? As polygamists we have got to earmark_our stock according to the houses - that is, the Great House, the Righthand House and so on. This earmark allows you to recognize your property even if it is found far away. The district number of Ngqeleni is 81 , but we know as soon as we see CDY on a vehicle that it comes from Ngqeleni. If you brand your stock CDY and the Mpondomisi number 29, the police will easily identify that beast as coming from that particular Mpondomisi area in Ngqeleni. Perhaps one could even add the initials of the owner. In regard to small stock, some people in Libode used to tattoo their stock about the gums. I am suggesting ways and means whereby stock could be easily identified, Mr Chairman.
AFTERNOON SESSION BUDGET SPEECH - 1976
Mr Chairman, honourable Paramount Chiefs and honourable members, each year has its special moments for an individual or a group of people, for an organisa- in fact for the whole world. tion or a country — Every experience differs from a previous one, and the number which come our way are countless. In the final analysis man is judged by the manner in which he reacts to the ordinary and to the extraordinary moments of his year. Often many people share an experience and by the manner in which they react the men are separated from the boys. 1976, Mr Chairman, I believe will go down in history as a year of many special moments for the Transkei. I can imagine it being recalled as the year of the initially abundant but later over-abundant rains. In the begining we accepted the abundant rains as a blessing which revived our pastures and replenished our water sources. To many, however, the continuing downpours have brought hardships and suffering. The House has already expressed its sympathy with those who have lost dear ones through causes related directly to the heavy rains; it is also concerned over the damage to homes and crops, to roads and lands. Our people had no choice but to accept the good with the bad. We accepted them as they came and thus proved our ability to overcome adversity -as men. But, Mr Chairman and honourable members, 1976 will also be remembered as the year of our Independence. That moment will be cherished by all true Transkeians. For the Transkei National Independence Party in particular it will be the fulfilment of a long-cherished ideal. The confidence with which the Government is embarking on the step speaks for its maturity - for in today's dangerous world, independence is a man's game. Mr Chairman, I have deemed these somewhat oblique introductory remarks necessary because with regard to what follows I would appeal to the House to react in a manner which will stamp us as men facing the realities. These realities are the financial straits in which the whole Western World and, most importantly, our perennial benefactor, the Republic of South Africa, find themselves. After twelve fat years we are faced with a lean year and it behoves us to react with understanding and in a spirit of co-operation with the Republican Government. For, Mr Chairman, I have, with regret, to announce that in this year, 1976, the year of our Independence, I have to budget for an apparent substantial deficit of R14 757 000 - despite stringent pruning of all seven Votes.
MR R. S. MADIKIZELA: I second the motion, Mr Chairman. MR P. N. NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support this motion. The motion introduced by the hon chief is a notable one. Now that the Whites have left this country stock theft is increasing. The Whites left and the police transport left with them. Stock theft is now rife because there are no vehicles at the police stations now. The police at various police stations now have to do without vehicles. The police today have to borrow horses from the pounds. We are now on the eve of independence but there is hardly a motor vehicle available today to the police. We once suggested in this House that the police should patrol even during the night, but you find no police at night. It is only the criminals who move about then. Criminals are free to move even about towns now. It is they who are free and the stock thieves rule us now. I think the Government is responsible for this stock thieving, because stock thieves would not move about so freely if there were police vans patrolling. The mover suggests there should be a mobile unit here in Umtata but I do not know whether they will get transport for it. How can we have a helicopter when we have not even got motorcars? How would they purchase that helicopter, because the Government has no funds? I do not think we can afford a helicopter because we can hardly afford vehicles. Stock thieves are very happy now that the Government cannot afford fastmoving transport and they are free to move about. What is happening now because there are no police about is that people go to a kraal, surround it and kill. There will be a lot of fighting because the people feel they are no longer protected, and so they will just organize themselves and fight. The Government should suppress stock thieving. If there are no motorcars, horses could be acquired and the police could move about on horseback. The Government in conjunction with the chiefs and headmen could work together to control the movement of people even by night. People drive this stolen stock during the night. During the days of stock counts the stock inspectors should pay special heed, because the thieves operate in their presence. The debate was adjourned. CHAIRMAN: I will remind the House that at 2.15 the Budget Speech will be read by the hon the
I am satisfied that, as in the past, the Accounting Officers of the various departments have budgeted for only the essential services of their departments and for unavoidable extentions thereof. The oirginal estimates of our reasonable requirements - approximately R148 million ― was nevertheless 45% higher than that of the previous financial year. This was hardly surprising for
Firstly the full impact, financially, of the inclusion of the districts of Glen Grey and Herschel has only now become apparent. The estimated expenditure in respect of this aspect accounts for some 25% of the increase which I have just mentioned. Secondly the estimated expenditure in preparation for Independence i.e. in respect of major building projects of a permanent nature and the non-recurring (R580 000) expenditure in respect of actual celebrations account for a further 25% of the increase. Thirdly increased social benefits payable as from October 1975 account for yet a further 12 % of the increase. The remaining 38 % of the increase of: the final takeover of the police functions and certain prison responsibilities;
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needed development works have had to be postponed. Every department has been affected, some to a greater extent than others, but all have responded magnificently and are determined to provide the best service possible in the circumstances.
the virtually inescapable expansion of current departmental activities; and to a very considerable extent, by the unabated escalation of cost on all services and supplies. These estimates were submitted to the Republican Authorities in the usual manner - as required in terms of the Transkeian Constitution Act. It was anticipated that, to supplement the approximately R28 million which the Transkei calculated it would itself be able to raise, approximately R120 million would as in the past be made available by the Republic. In the event, and due solely to a state of its own economic situation, Sen. Horwood could however not see his way clear to providing more than R93 033 000. This meant, that, together with the expected revenue from own sources there would have been a shortfall of some R27 700 000 -- between revenue and expenditure.
Permit me here to express my appreciation to all the Secretaries and departmental officials who have had to carry out this particularly arduous and thankless task in finalising the estimates in the unfortunate circumstances I have outlined. To summarise, the drop in the free market gold price, quadrupled fuel prices, escalating costs of other imported goods and services, declining exports related to world recessionary trends and the ever rising cost of keeping communist terrorists at bay along our borders have combined to make 1976 a hard year for the Republican fisc. And, inescapably, that makes 1976 a hard year for the Transkeian fisc. That this should be so in the very year we have opted for independence is unfortunate but by no means daunting.
Departments were immediately instructed by the Treasury to prune their budgets drastically but savings of the desired magnitude simply could not be made without, in Accounting Officers' opinions, disastrous consequences and the Republican Authorities were reapproached in the matter. In reply it was reiterated, however, that the general financial position simply did not permit of any further funds being made available. The Secretary for Bantu Administration and Development advised, however, that a reassessment of the revenue from General tax indicated that an additional amount of two million rand would be available to the Transkei.
In Afrikaans there is an expression which says: " 'n Boer maak ' n plan." It means "A farmer will always find a solution" and is used to highlight the proverbial ability of a farmer to overcome difficulties despite lack of materials or tools. Well, Mr Chairman and honourable members, we are all farmers gathered her today. If we cannot find a solution to our 1976 problems we are not worth our salt! Mr Chairman, allow me to cut short the probable jubilation of the Opposition and to lift the understandable gloom which may have settled on even government supporters. The Transkei will in fact learn from the experience. Let me explain. The Government had to find a means to bridge the gap, and I am happy to advise the House that such a means has been found. There is an adequate "soft" loan available abroad, for the purposes of financing infrastructural capital works. The significance of this goes far beyond merely balancing the Budget. If the negotiations succeed it will establish the creditworthiness of, and esteem for the Transkei in world financial circles. It should also silence many a critic and prophet of doom.
Mr Chairman, I do not intend to labour the present financial problems of the world and in particular the unfavourable financial position of the Republic.. The facts are well known to this House. Honourable members across the floor raised their eyebrows at my announcing so substantial a deficit but I can assure them that I am satisfied that the Transkei had in fact been given a very high priority in the allocation of the available funds. The Republican Authorities have the greatest sympathy with our plight, but it just cannot provide further funds. In his Budget Speech for 1976 the Honourable Minister of Finance of the Republic pointed out the priorities and indicated that as a result certain aspects of Government administration may be seriously hampered certain departsments would even have less to spend than during the previous financial year. I can tell the House that I have personally discussed the problem at the highest level. Faced with this reality, Mr Chairman, this hard reality of 1976, the manner in which we approach and accept the situation is of prime importance. That is why I appealed earlier on for us to conduct ourselves as men do when faced with a situation as it is and not as they would like it to be.
In order to be able to take up the offered loan it will be necessary to pass a General Loans Act. An appropriate Bill is in an advanced stage of drafting and will be presented to the House later during this Session. Mr Chairman and honourable Members, I do not intend to proceed, as in previous Budget Speeches, to discuss particular aspects of the various Votes. Ministers will deal adequately with the details under their respective Votes, including the extent to which services provided by their departments have been affected by prunings of their estimates. I should, however, emphasize that the appropriation which will be approved during this Session is for a full 12 months but will in fact because of the new departmentalisation after independence be effective only until 25 October 1976. After that date a new appripriation will have to be made for the rest of the financial year and which will cater for the twelve ministries and seventeen departments which will come into being on 26 October. Our future financial relations with the Republic of South Africa will probably form the subject of a formal agreement between the two Governments to be signed before Independence. Upon 26 October the whole financial situation will be reviewed.
My Government, Mr Chairman, has met this challenge. My promise during the second reading speech on the Second Appropriation Bill 1975 was not a vain one, namely that the Government would contain fiscal spending as far as possible and that wherever possible actual savings would be effected. Members will recall that I had previously budgeted for a deficit of half a million rand which would, if necessary, have had to be met from the Transkeian Development and Reserve Fund. As a result of the Government's economising, however, I am pleased to announce that instead of a deficit there was indeed a surplus of approximately six million rand at the end of the previous financial year. It is evident, therefore, chat departments and the Government fully responded to my call to co-operate in combating inflation by cutbacks in official spending. I wish to express my appreciation of this sterling effort. In the same spirit, Departments were, after receipt of the final answer from Pretoria on our 1976/77 funds requisition, directed to prune their estimates for 1976/77 even further. This was done and entailed literally cutting to the bone. An amount of approximately R13 million was lopped off to bring the effective deficit to R14 757 000. This surgery, as the Honourable the Minister of Labour and of Mines called it in his opening speech to this House on 17 March, will have painful effects. Many services have had to be curtailed, normal expansion has had to be checked, urgently
Briefly then, Mr Chairman, the expected financial position for the 1976/77 financial year is as follows:The estimated balance in the Transkeian Revenue Fund as at 31 March 1976 is Add to this
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R6 000 000
The estimiated revenue from own sources namely R22 009 000 and the grant plus additional sum from the Republic totalling R93 033 000 i.e.
R115 042 000
then there will be
R121 042 000
available to meet the estimated expenditure of The remaining amount of will be met from the proposed loan to which I have referred.
sons, are working in the mines, in cities all over the Republic and what they earn they send to the Transkei. Of course, as we all know, the black man's bank is the buying of livestock. Now, what happens after this stock has been bought is the notorious illegal business of stock thieving which wipes out all the stock overnight. All that has been poured into the Transkei from the Republic in the form of money is now destroyed overnight. You sleep today counting your ten head of cattle but when you awake the following morning you find you are a poor man again without any stock to count. The poor Transkeian people are therefore exposed to this merciless thieving. They will always be struggling because they are not rotected against this type of thing. This goes further, but does not only end with the peole who lose their cattle. It is wrecking the whole Transkei economy. MR GUZANA: What do we do about it? MR NDLELENI : Considering this great loss suffered by the owner of livestock and also the loss to the Transkeian economy this proves it is really important that steps should be taken to combat this menace. Under the circumstances it appears that it is really worth spending this amount to implement what the motion seeks, because it is important to realise that the Transkei State is also in trouble in regard to its economy. The Government will not only be protecting its individual citizens but also the entire Transkeian economy. That is why I stand to associate myself with this motion. MR GUZANA: Support it - I don't associate with it. Say you are supporting the motion. MR NDLELENI: If we were to sit and draw up an account of the number of stock losses per month or per year it would run to millions or rands. While establishing a stock theft station will be an expense, it will only be effected once. Of course, hon member, I am sure everybody will support this motion .... MR GUZANA: And you? MR NDLELENI : ... because this unit, although suggested to be established in Umtata, would serve the whole of the Transkei. We would also be assisted in the Maluti mountains and all over the Transkei. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, whilst I support the motion at least I do not lend my weight to the suggestion that there should be a stock theft centre in the Transkei. GOVT MEMBER: Why? MR GUZANA: The reason is obvious. You will be making stock thieves efficient, and encouraging them by creating a stock theft centre. A rehablitation centre rehabilitates people; a stock theft centre encourages stock thieves, and that is the language that came from the hon member. The motion seeks to have established in Umtata a stock theft police mobile unit with a view to pouncing immediately upon stock thieves who are operating on a very large scale in the Transkei. Now, a mobile unit used to be stationed in Umtata and the rural peasant folk have certain reservations about such a unit. I am informed that that unit was a law unto itself. They emptied thick milk out of calabashes down their throats; took hamels out of the stock kraals and slaughtered them; ate green mealies from the fields and altogether became an army supporting themselves on the land where they happened to be. This makes me a bit doubtful about the wisdom of establishing a mobile unit in the city of Umtata. If there is such a thought then I believe that mobile units should be strategically placed in the various regions of the Transkei, including Glen Grey and Herschel. The benefit to be derived from such regionalization ist hat the unit is immediately on the spot whenever stock thieving is reported, as against drawing personnel from Umtata to go to Herschel or to Mount Fletcher. M/ROADS: Are you bringing an amendment? MR GUZANA: I am not bringing an amendment. I am supporting the motion and further amplifying it. In fact, just as an observation I might say that the hon the Minister of Roads has not maintained the roads in a condition which will allow the police to catch up with these thieves and we wonder what the motive is behind this. (Laughter) To reduce stock thieving requires lightning speed on the part of the officials with the responsibility of catching the thief in the act. If it is possible for thieves to cart by loory 980 mixed sheep from Ngcwanguba overnight, deliver them in Maclear
R135 799 000 R14 757 000
It is regretted that the Budget could not have been presented to the House earlier. This is mainly due to the problems which I have just outlined in my speech. As the Appropriation Act has to be assented to by the State President of the Republic before 31 May 1976 and as Members have already had the opportunity over the past weeks of discussing a wide range of matters while debating a variety of motions, I would request that Members be as brief as possible in their discussions on the Budget, I thank you, Mr Chairman and Honourable Members, for listening so attentively, and now move that the Transkeian Appropriation Bill be read a second time. M/HEALTH: I second, Mr Chairman. M/FINANCE : Mr Chairman, I move that in order that hon members should be in a position to digest and analyse the matters I have placed before them this debate be adjourned until tomorrow and in the meantime we continue with the rest of the matters on the order paper. M/AGRICULTURE: I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. SUGGESTED MEASURES FOR PREVENTION NTIO OF STOCK THEFT The debate was resumed. MR P. N. NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I shall continue to speak on the motion by the hon member for Ngqeleni. The motion suggests the establishment of a mobile unit to assist in preventing stock theft. This mobile unit will be very useful but the people attached to this unit must not interest themselves in other matters. They will have many vehicles and these vehicles may then be used to transport people. We suggest that discretion be used in the operation of this mobile unit and these vehicles should be such that they are not easily recognizable. What we suggest is that they should supply the police with transport so that they will find it easy to get about. The mobile unit leaving a police station will frighten all the people. They should be stationed at Umtata but should be unrecognizable in any district. That is what I suggest, Mr Chairman. The police are not fully catered for because, as it is, in each district they have no transport and are not free to patrol the area. Life is not protected in town in as much as people just break into premises now without fear. There are no police to patrol the area. The police are asked to patrol in the village and also the outside areas to contain stock theft. MR C. DIKO: We want a mobile unit. Don't talk about police patrolling the villages now. MR NKOSIYANE: I am supporting the idea of a mobile unit but the police should patrol even outside the villages because if the police patrol the area this will contain the matter of people going about stealing stock at their ease. The police will have to master certain strategic places, because people steal in the middle of the night. The police should station themselves at key points. I am an Mqanduli man and know exactly where the police should patrol. I am supporting this motion strongly. MR D. J. NDLELENI : Mr Chairman and hon members, this motion seeks to establish a very expensive project, as it seeks to establish a stock theft police mobile unit with a helicopter. In order to establish such a station it means additional staff - that is, for the police mobile unit. It necessitates buildings, motor vehicles, a helicopter, office equipment, remuneration .... MR K. M. GUZANA: Are you opposing the motion? Let us hear you. MR NDLELENI: What is important now is whether such a project is really worth undertaking. MR GUZANA: Come out of the bush. Are you opposing the motion? MR NDLELENI : We know that our brothers, our
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the administrative areas challenge posts where people can be questioned as to their authority to drive stock and be called upon to produce documents establishing their bona fides. I know we were able to rescue about six head of cattle in Ncambedlana in broad daylight when we challenged men who were driving stock. They turned tail and rode hard in the opposite direction. (Laughter) I believe that this is something which we can do for ourselves in our various administrative areas. If it is so easy to blow a horn to start a faction fight, why is it not easy to blow a horn to summon men to challenge these questionable stock drivers? ] would also urge that our tribal authority offices should be serviced with telephones to enable them to get quickly into touch with authority whenever suspicious circumstances relate to movement of stock. I know stock thieves are usually belligerent people who are armed to the teeth, and at night it is a bit hazardous to challenge these men, so that wherever there is a telephone installed at the office of the tribal authority it is quite possible to call the police out so as to obtain assistance. GOVT MEMBER: They have no vans. MR GUZANA: The remark has been thrown into this debate that they do not possess vans, but if that is the excuse for letting thieves off then we may as well not bother about discussing a motion of this nature, because our intention is to stimulate the Government into producing assistance which will reduce this menace. If the Government says they have no vans to send out then it means in effect the Government is condoning stock thieving in the Transkei. If we have to make these comparisons, let it be admitted that there are more cars available to Ministers than there are vans available to the law enforcement officers. You only need to go to the government garage to see how many cars there are, and when you count the number of Ministers you see how few there are, and when you see how often they change their cars you wonder to what extent there is mismanagement and maladministration of funds in order to give comfort to the Ministers and also to the stock thieves. (Interjections) Now the hon the Minister of Agriculture asks me if I am not envious of their position. M/AGRICULTURE : Did I say that? MR GUZANA: I would never be envious to live in the ministerial location. M/AGRICULTURE : It is not a location, it is a suburb . MR GUZANA: If it is a suburb it is most strategically placed next to the refuse disposal works, and who would be envious of such a situation? And so , hon members, the operative word is: What are our priorities? We have had members here indicating that the rural peasant still looks upon his stock as his bank balance, and if that possession represents the wealth of the kreater body of Transkeian citizens then it deserves protection. After all, the Standard Bank has a strongroom and is very safe with padlocks at the door. Why are we leaving the wealth of the people open for thieves to take? You must remember that the mentality of our folk is still geared to wealth visible in terms of the number of sheep and the number of cattle one owns, and I am reminded of the man who raised a loan with the bank and pledged his stock, and in three months' time he returned the loan of R1 000 leaving in his bag several thousand rands. When the bank manager spotted the several thousand rands in the bag he suggested that this man invest the several thousand rands with the bank. The African replied: "When you lent me money you asked me to pledge my stock. Now I will give you the several thousand rands on condition you pledge your stock to me." (Laughter) The point I am making is that stock is still an invaluable asset to the Transkeian peasant farmer, and any Government which neglects to protect that stock is guilty of a very serious omission. The hon the Minister of Agriculture has been overemphasizing the need for improving our stock in order to increase our pastoral productivity, in order to base on those products secondary industries, but where is the incentive when the Government connives at the type of stock thieving that is going on now? M/AGRICULTURE : No Government connives. MR GUZANA: The Government is at present unable to cope with the stock thieving that is taking
and by morning the sheep are in Durban, and if you are there for lunch you eat the mutton from those sheep, it means that the police must be faster than those people. The whole problem is caused by the inadequacy of our police personnel in the Transkei, apart from the roads. Can you imagine a situation where in a town you have about four to five sub police stations to look after the inhabitants of the town, and yet in a place like the Transkei you have about five policemen in the village which is the centre of between 40 to 50 administrative areas with an average population of 600 to 700 people? It is just impossible. If we were to look at this matter responsibly we ought to urge the establishment of a olice station in every administrative area or two. I have travelled through into the Orange Free State along the less popular roads, only to find that somewhere there is a police substation for no apparent reason other than that the law manifests itself visibily by its presence some time, somewhere, but not too far apart. Here in the Transkei we find that the policeman is an exceptional occurrence rather than the rule and we hope to reduce the prevalence of stock theft with the minimal staff possible. The motion further suggests that a helicopter be made available to this mobile unit. Well, there are many advantages which would be derived from the acquisition of a helicopter, but I would lay more emphasis on increased police personnel. Whilst a helicopter has the advantage of being able to land anywhere and everywhere, it is to my mind a highly expensive proposition, though by comparison with the small private plane that this Government owns I would certainly suggest that they should trade that in for a helicopter. (Laughter) This is more of a luxury than a acquisition. The earmarking of stock is, to my mind, something that does not help whatsoever unless and until we have a register of earmarks so that there is no duplication of earmarks anywhere, and this would go simultaneously with the branding of a beast so that if we have a brand BD for the hon the Minister of Agriculture and this brand mark is registered in his name, no other person has a right to use that brand mark except himself. This is what Europen farmers do and I think it is in the right direction as far as earmarks are concerned. Many a thief has just cut the ear off and says he uses a big earmark, and all your swallowtails and your skeys have gone by the board. Then I think the distribution of our population in the very topography of the Transkei plays into the hands of the thieves. First of all, I think we must agree that people must get out of the mountain slopes and dense forests in places like Lusikisiki and Port St John's, and get out of those inaccessible fastnesses of the Transkei. It is so easy for people to hide stock in those areas and claim ownership, because there are eople living in these out-of-the-way awkwardly placed positions. Furthermore, stock owners who trace their stock to those fastnesses may not be able to find their way home and no-one will be able to find out where they have been buried. And so the stock owner who wants to vindicate his stock finds that his life is in danger because there is an excuse for stock going there by reason of the fact that there are people living in these inaccessible areas. Those areas could easily be declared reserved areas for afforestation, for the establishment of wild-life reserves, and any stock which strays into that area will be regarded as stray stock unclaimable by anybody. I think, however, the whole question of stock thieving is one that requires considered attention by the Department of Justice. Nobody who seeks to be a progressive farmer is going to invest R300 or R600 in a cow which can be stolen overnight and slaughtered without any prospect of recovery of sompensation , so that in as much as stock thieving becomes more prevalent, so do we discourage th epeasant farmer in his effort to improve the quality of his stock. Then I think in this connection we need to make a very strong appeal to tribal authorities , regional authorities, headmen and subheadmen. I have known of administrative areas where two or three men are specifically appointed to check on all stock that goes through that administrative area, and this tends to discourage stock thieves who are still primitive from driving their stolen stock along the road. It discourages them from going through such administrative areas. In other words, we must establish from our personnel in 211 .
place. It will not buy the vehicles to make the means of recovery available. They break the vehicles which are made available to police to chase the thieves and this is the result of careless and unwise selection of members of the police by the department, because you collect even the thieves to join the police. (Laughter) Where do we stop this rot? You cannot make any excuses for this parlous position. Let us commit ourselves to some positive action here. Let there be police substations in many of these administrative areas. Instead of setting up a prestige army, let us recruit more police to preserve law and order and to fight stock thieving. M/AGRICULTURE: What about the attorneys? You defend them. MR GUZANA: Let us make our police force more mobile and let us appeal to our regional and tribal authorities to establish these observation posts in their administrative areas. M/AGRICULTURE: What about the attorneys? MR GUZANA: The hon the Minister of Agriculture wants me to talk about attorneys. M/AGRICULTURE : Who protect these thieves. MR GUZANA: You seem to have a wrong notion of the services of an attorney. May I just tell you one or two things M/AGRICULTURE : That is what I want. ... that if you get into trouble MR GUZANA: you run to an attorney. (Laughter) If a thief were to drag the skin of a stolen sheep within the precincts of your yard you would be asked to explain, and if you are charged with stock theft you will go to an attorney even if you are not a stock thief. M/AGRICULTURE : But they are stock thieves. MR GUZANA: Yes, that's right, but you may be charged with stock theft even if you have not stolen. M/AGRICULTURE : But you defend the stock thieves. MR GUZANA: And I will defend you just as much as I will defend a stock thief. Of course, I am not surprised at this attitude because most of you think a person is guilty before he is convicted. (Interjections) The fundamental and basic principle of law is that a man is innocent until he is proved guilty. M/AGRICULTURE: But even if you know he is guilty you will still defend him. MR GUZANA: If a stock thief instructs an attorney and says he has not stolen, the auorney has no way out of it but to present the defence as it has been presented to him. M/AGRICULTURE: Even if he knows the man has stolen? MR GUZANA: How is he going to know? Where was he? Let us get back to the issue. We require this Government to dedicate itself in this particular aspect. We don't mind if police create surprise roadblocks and check these lorries and vans which ply their trade overnight. This is what we want, and we don't want these roadblocks two kilometres out of town. We want them on the road which leaves Libode through Nyandeni out to join the main road at Luraseni or somewhere like that, or the road from Viedgesville right through to Tabase and Tabase Nek; the road which branches off at Zimbane and goes through Mpeko or Moekezweni. We want these police roadblocks right up there as this would help to deter and frighten away the thieves from using vehicles to transport their stolen stock. All I ask is that the men going threre must be sufficiently mobile to do the unusual and stop being stereotyped. Most often the Government thinks the way to stop stock thieving is where the policeman is told stock has been stolen and he sets off after the stock as though he is in a race. We want preventive measures, and one of the byproducts of the rehabilitation scheme is that the areas are fenced and the stock thieves are handicapped to a degree by the fencing. The trouble is, though, that the Government thinks it is fencing people in and not stopping thieves. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR D. B. MXUTU: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support the motion by the hon member for Ngqeleni. Stock thieves are now reviving their bad habits and the Good Book says: By the sweat of thy brow shalt thou eat bread. Stock thieving in my area was pronounced after the second Great War when wool fetched a very high price. The
evildoers started by taking some or all of someone's sheep and a few days later he found his sheep completely shorn. On one of the sheep you would find placard and a scroll on that placard which said: Thank you for the wool, but don't search for the hamel because we slaughtered it for the shearers. After that they came to the large stock and you would find that the large and the small stock would be sent to the hilly parts of the country, which parts are not accessible, so it would be a good thing to have a helicopter in order to spot the den of the thieves. They are now reviving their evil trade again because the price of sheep has risen and, as has been said, they now use vehicles to take people's stock. This they do day and night and the worst part is that if you find your stock after a year and report it to the police, it is reduced to a simple matter and invariably a thief is clever and he goes to an attorney and claims it is his stock and the attorney .... MR K. M. GUZANA: What is the implication? (Laughter) MR MXUTU: .... the attorney will do his best to defend him and the poor man is now deprived of his stock because this has been reduced to a simple matter. That was the result of the birth of that secret organization which was called Makhuluspan, so that the people took the law into their own hands and they killed indiscriminately. I shudder to think of the revival of that Makhuluspan because if it is revived it will mean the mass destruction of the people. It will therefore be a good thing if there is a helicopter to go to these mountainous parts. You will find that these hilly areas are not inhabited and that is where the stock is kept. There is no-one there except the stock thieves and when the stock owners go there, because they do not know the area they get lost and they fear even to go there because these thieves are fully armed. I support the motion in that there should be a helicopter and a mobile unit to chase the stock thieves. Secondly, in regard to the earmarking of stock the thieves use a hot iron to obliterate this brand mark. I would suggest that whoever is found with a beast whose brands have been completely obliterated should be arrested. It is not only cruel to animals, but it is a disadvantage to the stock owners because you are not able to see your brand. In supporting this motion I believe the best thing is to have more mobile police in order to check this stock thieving. People are made poorer by the thieves, especially those who have no-one to look for this stolen stock. The Republican Government has helicopters to trace lawbreakers, so we should also follow suit and have a helicopter in order to trace thieves. Thank you, Mr Chairman. The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 4 May 1976. TUESDAY, 4 MAY 1976
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. QUESTIONS. QUESTION NO: 71 : Chief D. D. P. Ndamase asked the Minister of the Interior:"Are there any ex-soldiers in the Transkei? If so: State in what districts these are; (b) State in what their names are in each district; How many of these are given pension; How many of them are not given pension; State names of those that are not given the pension emoluments; and (f) Why are these not given pension?" REPLY: "There are 186 ex-soldiers in the Transkei. (a) Butterworth Cala Elliotdale Engcobo Flagstaff Kentani
212.
Matatiele Mount Ayliff Mount Fletcher Mount Frere Ngqeleni Nqamakwe Port St. Johns Tabankulu Tsolo Umtata Umzimkulu Willowvale Lady Frere
(b) BUTTERWORTH : Witness Mawiti Siwundla Ntwalo Moriot Peter Pitsana Ogley Vitshima CALA:
Abednego Kweza ELLIOTDALE: Lufana Lennox Nduluka Vulityala Gcuwa Reuben Ben Poswa Malihambe Mabelana Jabavu John Tini Dalimvula Gwebindlala Makwenkwana Mfakandalo Mamalatile Mdolo Bubani Dalibango Notofa Gwebindlala
ENGCOBO: Maqendwana Lengiso Assegai Mabe Mafengo Mashaya Maclear Qwakumbana FLAGSTAFF :
Lova Nkenu Mapenyane Jobela KENTANI : Sigamfu Kantolo Elias Caba Elliot Somana Jela Kokolo Elton Sambuku Nqamra Timba Mankahla
MATATIELE : Mnusa David Rajuile Matselase Ntsolo Edward Tsobo Elliot Morolong Samuel Shale Dankies Sifumba Jobo Sibi Samuel Moshesh Thousand Tyali Meshack Moeti George Peo Aaron Mkwala Elliot Maboeë Samuel Mongoata Joseph Mosala I. R. Maqaleka Maroa Arthur Gugushe Solomon Lepheana Jack Fokotsa Benedict Sekoane William Moleleki Simon Pheta Thuba Sabasaba — Michael Mokhantso Tifo Duma Samuel Molemani Jacob Tseeke John Magudu Bethel Mtumtum·
M. S. Motseki James Seroke Phillip Gugushe MOUNT AYLIFF :
Sweliqinga King Daka Bambala Gqiji Joel Fengo Mtevele Ernest Njubane MOUNT FLETCHER : Selekane O. Motebele Lengolo Likotsi Mokete E. Mokoena Mosia W. Mofane Albert Mgijima Mohanoe J. Makhetha Lebenya Linus Robert N. Setloboko Sello Tsoaeli Frank M. Zibi Thutha E. Manqaman Mofokeng Bolofo Dick Bolofo Lentsoa Lentsa Moloi B. Mthunya M. M. Lehana Alfan Morai Temeki Khotoi Matsoku Setloboko Mpotsetseng Lebenya Zacharia S. Khiba Moketi P. Khathali Richard T. Lebeta Leshodu W. Fafoli Mokoto P. Mokoroane Joseph G. Mkangala Joseph N. Benya Sello I. Bolofo Malemoha J. Khalane Kabelo Ramokali Thabo A. Mthunya Clifford Moses Henry Sejosengoe Allett Sikiti Thekiso Sello Mathe E. Matubatuba Mothepo Sejosengoe Isaac M. Nkhea Botha Gam Timothy Khathali Elias M. Tsele Sikem Lehana Phillip H. Nkhahle Gedeon Lebenya Tsepo Molefe Raimapato Philemon April Mapheleba Moshemane S. Mondweni Lucas Makoro Austia Mohloni Mcondo Mnyazi Sidwell S. Setloboko Mating Seleke Samuel Sipamla Bulembu S. Sigaba Simon S. Sentle Morris Moshoeshoe Simon T. Gqada Gidwell Thene George Moiloa Timothy Lequa Mdoda Vulani Masiu O. Khathali Cowen Mohonoa Mpotse M. Magwaza Robert Makeng Sampson Phoofolo Ketshoa Hlasa Phakalitha Leanya Jacobs C. Thobei Mothibi,J. Tsolo Noah Setloboko Francis M. Moleleki 213.
MOUNT FRERE :
Bambala Gwiji Clifford Moses Cowen Mohonoa Phillip H. Nkhahle Mpotse M. Magwaza Allett Sikiti Simon S. Sentle Thekiso Sello Morris Moshoeshoe Mathe E. Matubatuba Simon T. Gqada Mothepo Sejosengoe Gidwell Thene Isaac M. Nkhea George Moiloa Botha Gam Timothy Lequa Timothy Khathali Mdoda Vulani Elias M. Tsele Masiu O. Khathali Mzonzima Nkushubana Fuzile Gamisa Calvin Fono Matlokantsi Payipayi Pitsana Ogley Vitshima Vulityala Gcuwa Sigamfu Kantolo Elton Nqamra Matselase Ntsolo L. R. Maqaleka Ernest Njubane Samuel Sipamla Henry Sojosengoe Bulembu S. Sigaba Gedeon Lebenya Robert Makeng Tsepo Molefe Sampson Ploofolo Raimapato Philemon Ketsoa Hlasa Mothibi J. Tsolo Austia Mohloni Noah Setloboko Mcondo Mnyazi Francis M. Molelėki Sidwell S. Setloboko Haywood Matsinya David Hlamvana Sinodi Nonpyana Matatana Tsita Elliot Botya Alison Baliso Richard Nqwala Gilead Madikiza Elliot Mbele Ndodo Mtobele Isaac Madlala Sgebengu Richard James Kumalo Tatsi Modicay Mabandle Vusu Sikem Lehana Joel Mkombela Mdumzeli Madapu Mlahlwa Tengile Johnson Jokazi Makubekana Jaca Gayi Keswa MacDonald Mohlandi Mkuku Dlamini Mzoliswa Hlangebi Matomane Wilmoth Mlungu April Mapheleba Phakalitha Leanya Moshemane S. Mondweni Jacobs C. Thobei Lucas Makoro
Ncinca Samson Mona Mzonzima Nkushubana Tobigunya Maya
NGQELENI: Siyoyo Madzidzela Gqododo Gedeni John Jafta Bertie Koyana Mjulelwa Kohliso Haywood Matsinya NQAMAKWE : Fuzile Gamisa
PORT ST. JOHNS: Dekwana Nicodemus David Hlamvana Calvin Fono Sinodi Nompanyana TABANKULU:
Fenyane Nkomana Matatana Tsita Matlokotsi Payipayi Tyelinzima Mbele TSOLO :
Cathcart Mangcotywa Elliot Botya Alison Baliso Richard Nqwala Wekilo Mtati Joel Mbombela Mdumzeli Madapu Mlaheva Tengile UMTATA:
Gilead Madikiza UMZIMKULU :
Kimbili Ngonyana Tshayinyoni Mcunu Johnson Jokazi Makubekana Jaca Gayi Keswa MacDonald Mohlandi Mkuku Dlamini Mzoliswa Mhlangebi Matomane Wilmoth Mlungu Msingapantsi E. W. Mthethwa Elliot Mbele Ndoda Mtobele Isaac Madlala Sgebengu Richard James Kumalo Tasi Modicay Mabandle Vuso WILLOWVALE :
Nkenye Nombewu LADY FRERE : Benson Gxowa Ndondo Dloshe Harry Tabata Diliza Magwebu (c) 101 (d) 85 (e) Witness Mawiti Siwundla Lufana Nduluka Bubani Dalibango Elias Caba Elliot Somona Phillip Gugushe
(f) The Transkei Pensions Act, 1965 (Act 10 of 1965) does not make provision for the payment of war veteran's pensions to ex-soldiers in the Transkei. Those ex-soldiers who receive pensions, either qualify for old age pensions or disability grants. To receive social benefits ex-soldiers must 214.
(c)
qualify in terms of the Old Age Pensions Act, 1962 (Act 37 of 1962) and the Disability Grants Act, 1962 (Act 41 of 1962). Some of the abovenamed ex-soldiers have as yet not applied for social benefits. The position of War Veterans who qualify for social benefits is under review and it is hoped that the investigations which are being carried out will be to their advantage." QUESTION NO. 72:
(i) The establishment of a Medical School is extremmely costly and is not possible in the immediate future. 10. (1) University of Natal: Durban (ii) 2."
QUESTION NO. 74: Mr. J. M. Sigwela asked the Minister of Education :-
Chief T. M. Magadla asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry :-
"(a) Is the Department of Education aware that the students attending Cala High School are staying all over the village under alarming conditions?
"Is the Minister aware of the delay in the physical planning of some administrative areas after applying for rehabilitation?
(b) If so, what steps are being taken to put right this situation and have hostels for boys and girls put up for this school as soon as possible?
(a) If yes, are there any measures the Minister is contemplating to combat this?
(c) Further, why are hostels at Arthur Tsengiwe Training School not used to accommodate all students of that school as was done before?"
(b) Is the Minister aware that after the flood rains some huts have fallen down, and people want to rebuild permanently?
REPLY:
(c) Some measured huts for valuation have fallen down, and so:
"(a) No. The Department is only aware that students attending the Cala Senior Secondary School stay with neighbours in the village.
(i) What is the compensation position? (ii) Can people be given kraal-sites in their present set up? (iii) If no, what does the Minister advise?"
(b) At the moment this is a day school but it is the policy of the Department to have hostels erected at senior secondary schools when funds are available. (c) Hostels at Arthur Tsengiwe Training School cannot be used for accommodating students because the hostel buildings are delapidated and have been condemned by the Department of Roads and Works as unsuitable for occupation. However I am prepared to discuss the matter further with the Honourable Gentlemen asking the above question."
REPLY: "Yes. (a) The demand for soil conservation schemes has reached such high proportions that the department is experiencing difficulty in keeping space.
A new staff organisation is at present being implemented which is expected to increase efficiency.
QUESTION NO. 75: Mr. D. B. Mxutu asked the Minister of Education:-
(b) Yes. (c)
"Whether there is an Inspector of Music on the field staff. If not, why not?
(i) The people concerned will be paid full compensation upon building in demarcated residential areas to be indicated by the agricultural staff and sites issued by the Magistrate and headmen concerned.
REPLY:
"Please refer to my reply to Question 52 (c) (ii) of Order paper dated 13 April 1976 as the Inspector of Music will be the one and the same officer as the Organiser of Music."
(c) (ii) The people can be given kraal-sites upon consultation with the magistrate and Agricultural staff.
(c) (iii) As mentioned above." QUESTION NO. 76: QUESTION NO. 73: Mr. D. B. Mxutu asked the Minister of Education:"Whether the literacy programme has been extended to the new districts of Glen Grey and Herschel? If not, when will it be introduced?"
Mr. J. M. Sigwela asked the Minister of Health:"(a) Does the Minister know that we have no district doctor at Xalanga stationed at Cala to visit the two hospitals and clinics in the district?
REPLY:
"No. The matter is under consideration and such service will be introduced in the two districts as soon as circumstances permit. After all the new districts have just ben recently adjoined to the Transkei Administration." vantage. "
(b) If so, what steps are being taken to combat this difficulty? (c) May the Minister make a statement in the House on the following: (i) Arrangements to establish or to expand one of the existing hospitals in the Transkei for medical courses?
QUESTION NO. 77: Chief S. C. Dalasile asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry :"Whether the Minister would advise the people of Mqanduli as to what precautions could be adopted by the farmers to combat the destruction caused by wild pigs from the reserve plantation of Pagela on their crops?"
(ii) Where are African doctors being trained at present, and how many are accommodated each year for training?"
REPLY:
REPLY:
"(a) No. Two army doctors are stationed in Cala.
(b) Falls away.
"The problem has been investigated by Nature Con215.
(b) Planning can only be implemented after transfer of the property to the Government of the Transkei.
servation Officers of this Department who confirm that these are domestic pigs that have gone wild and become destructive and dangerous. Traps are being made for use in the Forest Reserve and others will be lent to the people who will be shown how to use them. Systematic trapping will be carried out under the supervision of Nature Conservation Officers until most of the animals are destroyed."
QUESTION NO. 81 : Mr. H. Pamla asked the Chief Minister:"(a) What is the number of taxpayers that entitle a chief to salary of: (i) R450; (ii) R720; and (iii) R1 080 per annum?
QUESTION NO. 78: Chief M. N. Matanzima asked the Minister of Roads and Works:
(b) What is: (i) the lowest salary and (ii) higest salary that can be earned by a headman per month?
"(a) How many bull-dozers, graders, loaders, tractors and trucks are allocated for road service to the Western Tembuland Region?
(b) of the above equipment figures how many are: (i) with drivers or operators; and (ii) without drivers or operators?
(c) When last was the number of taxpayers per chief reviewed?
(d) If they were reviewed, did they not affect the salary structure of a number of chiefs?"
(c) If there is idle equipment because of the short age of drivers or operators what steps are being taken by the authorities to remedy this situation?"
"(a) Bulldozers Motor Graders Loaders Tractors Trucks (b)
Nwaka waan
REPLY:
REPLY:
"(a)
7 15 6 6 33
(i) Bulldozers Motor Graders Loaders Tractors Trucks
6 14 6 3 28
(ii) Bulldozers Motor Graders Loaders Tractors Trucks
1
2000 (i) 1001 5000 (ii) 4001 (iii) 8001 and over
(c) October 1971. (d) In some cases the salary structure was affected." QUESTION NO. 82: Mr. H. Pamla asked the Chief Minister:"(a) Are there any returns in respect of the duties and functions of chiefs that are submitted to your Department annually?
NIL 3 5
(b) If there are none, how does your department assess the activity of a chief? (c) Are there any returns pertaining to duties and functions of such statutory bodies as tribal and regional authorities that are submitted to your annually?
(c) Leaner/Driver/Operators are now being trained at the Departmental training centre."
QUESTION NO. 79: (d) If none, how does the department assess the activties these bodies?"
Chief B. M. Mtirara asked the Minister of Roads and Works:-
REPLY: "If the Minister is aware that all roads at Lady Frere are in a bad state what steps is your Department taking to remedy this situation?”'
"(a) No. It is not considered necessary that returns relating specifically to the duties and functions of chiefs be submitted. Apart from the duties laid down in section 42(1 ) of Act No. 4 of 1965, chiefs are ex-officio members of tribal and regional authorities and are thus involved in very sphere of administration in their respective communities.
REPLY:
"Yes. This position was inherited from the previous authority. The Department does everything in its power to alleviate the position and has already transferred additional machinery to that area."
(b) Falls away in view of my reply to question (a) above.
QUESTION NO. 80: (c) Yes. The attention of the honourable member is invited to the functions of tribal and regional authorities respectively laid down in section 4 (1 ) and 12 ( 1 ) of Act No. 4 of 1965. The manner of submitting returns by these bodies is laid down in the regulations published under Government Notice No. 83 of 1966.
Mr. D. J. Ndleleni asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:“(a) When will De Schuur Farm in Matatiele be planned as it was taken over by the S.A.B.T. in 1964?
(d) Falls away."
(b) Is the Honourable Minister aware that there are families (farm squarters) on the said farm who are taxpayers but have been starving for the last eleven years as they are not allowed to plough pending the long promised planning?"
QUESTION NO. 83 :
Mr. R. S. Madikizela asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry :-
REPLY:
"(a) How many cattle, horses, sheep and goats died in the Transkei during the period 73/74 and 74/75? What was the estimated cash value?
"(a) Since this farm is the property of the S.A.B.T. , this department has no jurisdiction over it.
216.
(b) How many cattle, horses, sheep goats were introduced into the Transkei during the period mentioned above? (c) In both (a) and (b) supply information according to districts, please. REPLY :
"(a) STOCK DEATH FIGURES: 1973/74 CATTLE HORSES SHEEP GOATS DISTRICT 8806 12252 1343 2048 Bizana 8505 16128 250 11365 Butterworth 5778 5974 138 1298 Elliotdale 6236 13791 390 4532 Engcobo 8425 8611 503 1530 Flagstaff 5321 10620 395 1433 Idutywa 6333 12833 340 2708 Kentani 3674 8546 464 1615 Libode 9869 10283 541 5039 Lusikisiki 9949 9802 681 2623 Matatiele 4447 2383 1294 1380 Mt. Ayliff 8508 9579 711 2273 Mt. Fletcher 7077 6046 910 2443 Mt. Frere 8042 20502 407 3043 Mqanduli 8907 10195 645 5293 Ngqeleni 3329 13256 409 1606 Nqamakwe 1267 1021 99 1362 Port St. Johns 9884 16760 650 3389 Qumbu 3698 14850 119 1101 St. Marks 10299 10502 412 1934 Tabankulu 6331 15696 439 2410 Tsolo 2572 5669 210 1025 Tsomo 5139 42475 689 3746 Umtata 5097 7827 699 4537 Umzimkulu 27639 7112 810 3972 Willowvale 2722 223 11365 836 Xalanga 188653 304078 13771 64541 TOTALS 1974/75 DISTRICT
CATTLE HORSES SHEEP GOATS DIED DIED DIED DIED 12619 9386 1797 3589 Bizana 20265 10086 200 1587 Butterworth 9444 9594 182 2831 Elliotdale 14369 50917 592 7923 Engcobo 9593 7265 1675 2916 Flagstaff 9670 36776 407 1867 Idutywa 9417 11315 67 4281 Kentani 14142 6101 651 2696 Libode 9963 10269 2147 6642 Lusikisiki 17114 15032 888 3791 Matatiele 3526 3417 782 1537 Mt. Ayliff 13638 13468 904 Mt. Fletcher 2784 15653 25017 751 4083 Mt. Frere 13711 32289 479 8621 Mqanduli 20197 5690 638 9875 Ngqeleni 5690 21517 451 1885 Nqamakwe 2446 1221 342 Port St. Johns 4789 11105 17462 935 4884 Qumbu 5982 . 13858 187 2109 St. Marks 10177 11426 710 3803 Tabankulu 15154 29464 470 3736 Tsolo 2442 4099 209 1452 Tsomo 10201 52668 610 5398 Umtata 24423 11281 1549 6904 Umzimkulu 24423 19620 429 Willowvale 5031 10214 4384 196 1186 Xalanga 475412 264598 18248 TOTALS 106200
Flagstaff Flagstaff Elliotdale Elliotdale Idutywa Idutywa Kentani Kentani Libode Libode Lusikisiki Lusikisiki Matatiele Matatiele Mt. Ayliff Mt. Ayliff Mt. Fletcher Mt. Fletcher Mt. Frere Mt. Frere Mganduli Mqanduli Ngqeleni Ngqeleni Ngamakwe Ngamakwe Port St. Johns Port St. Johns Qumbu Qumbu St. Marks St. Marks Tabankulu Tabankulu Tsolo Tsolo Tsomo Tsomo Umtata Umtata Umzimkulu Umzimkulu Willowvale Willowvale Xalanga Xalanga TOTALS DISTRICT
CATTLE 503 592 592 10 380 63 930 118 150 150 274 205 233 483 479 104 57 471 29 431 909 82 163 120 1614 318 285 174
Taking an estimated price of R100 per Head for cattle and Horses and R10 per head for small stock, the estimated cash value is about R30 million. (b) INTRODUCTION OF STOCK 1973/1974
9177 DISTRICT Bizana Bizana Butterworth Butterworth Engcobo Engcobo
DISTRICT
GOATS
51 1076 1076 49 24 86 169 113 113 26 88 18 1 3 58 109 89 112 13 77 98 23 55 5 44 56 52
88 576 25 439 370 128 12
388 16
800 531
13
37 4505 59 153 14
1422
CATTLE HORSES
573 584 12 217.
HORSES SHEEP
36 6 11
9023
317
SHEEP GOATS
1.373
11 45
8600
1639
18 118 315
357 298 92 73 89 461
(d) On what conditions could such medical practitioners obtain permits to reside or be stationed in Bizana?"
"(a) Yes. (b) Drs. Collins and Greenberg. (c) Yes on a sessional basis. (d) Provided that they obtain a full time appointment or obtain the necessary approval from the Department of the Interior and Health for full time practice at Bizana."
|
37 75 167 36 23 247 45 16 10 70 82 47 41 7 62 47 45 136 .2 79 71 235 6
| ||| __
"TOTALS
179 185 977 152 110 331 160 443 227 389 17 72 984 18 192 574 441 160 64 456 699 482 119
324 16 2605
QUESTION NO. 87. Mr. L. L. Mgudlwa asked the Minister of Health:-
60 4325 108 15 6
209 34 16
10653
513
"(a) Is the Honourable Minister aware of the recent outbreak of typhoid fever at the girls' hostel at Clarkebury Institution? (b) If so, what steps has the Honourable Minister, in conjunction with the Minister of Education taken to remedy the situation? (c) How many girls were affected by the said outbreak? How many were hospitalised and with what results?"
QUESTION NO. 84: Mr. L. L. Mgudlwa asked the Minister of Justice:-
REPLY: "(a) Yes.
"How many cases of the following categories occurred in the Transkei during 1974/75?
(b) Patients who are suffering from the disease or are suspected cases are being treated -
murder; (b) common assault; (c) assault with intent to do grievous bodily harm; (d) resisting, obstructing or assaulting a policeman in the execution of his duty; (e) theft; and "9 (f) rape."
(1) at All Saints Hospital; (2) in isolation at Clarkebury Institution.
Contacts are being immunised both in the institution and in the surrounding area. (c) (1) 215 (2) 28 hospitalised - one death. Remember making satisfactory progress."
REPLY: "The following are statistics of cases that were reported in respect of the above-quoted categories: (a) 109 (b) 297 (c) 873 (d) 19 (e) 621 (f) 81."
QUESTION NO. 88 : Mr. T. M. Makaula asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry :"(a) Who benefits from the procedure of farms bought for the resettlement of Transkeian pending the resettlement?
QUESTION NO. 85: (b) If it is being sold, who has the right to sell it? Is it not the ranger?
Mr. H. H. Zibi asked the Minister of Roads and Works :"Whether he is aware that the swinging bridge linking up Tsolobeng with Maganyaneni on the Tina river was rendered out of use by floods a few years ago and as no repairs have done since, despite repeated requests to the competent authority, will repairs be done without further delay as this causes great inconvenience to the people using the bridge in question?"
(c) If produce such as trees is being sold, where will the people to be resettled on the farms obtain building material and firewood?" REPLY: "(a) This department is unaware of produce being sold from farms bought for resettlement excepting where the department has established departmental farming projects. The income from such farming projects is paid into the Transkeian Government.
REPLY: "No. The bridge is not government property and as such not the Department's responsibility. " QUESTION NO. 86:
(b) No. As stated above, this department is unaware of produce being sold except as mentioned. No ranger has the right to sell produce from government farms unless it is his own private possession or produce.
Mr. E. Dyarvane asked the Minister of Health: "(a) Whether he is aware of the weekly visits only in in the outlying areas of the district of Bizana paid by medical practitioners from Port Edward and Harding in Natal?
(c) If trees are being sold it is without the knowledge of this department excepting in cases where the trees are getting out of control and are felled back. The revenue, if any, is paid into the Transkeian Government. "
(b) If so, what are their names? (c) Could the Minister allow or encourage such medical practitioners to pay weekly visits also to St. Patricks Hospital to alleviate the very serious shortage of Medical and surgical services in the above hospital?
QUESTION NO. 89:
Mr. T. M. Makaula asked the Minister of Roads and Works:218.
'(a) What steps have been taken about the construction of a bridge on the Cicira river along the road to Kambi forest?
(c) If not, why not? (d) Whether powdered skimmed milk has been made available to his Department? If so : (i) what quantity? (ii) what is the average monthly quantity distributed? (iii) by whom? and (iv) in which areas is it distributed?"
(b) If no steps have been taken, what is reason therefor?
(c) Has the Honourable Minister had an opportunity of travelling through this section of the road after the recent floods or has it been inspected recently?
REPLY:
"(a) Yes. (d) If it has not been inspected, why?" (b) Hospitals are being requested to make available to members of the community skimmed milk powder and other high protein foods at State tender prices plus a small handling charge.
REPLY: "(a) None. (b) It will have to wait its turn with dozens of other applications for the construction of bridges.
(c) Faals away. QUESTION NO. 93 :
(c) No but officials of my Department have travelled over over that section of the road and repairs are being carried out.
Chief D. M. Nonkonyana asked the Minister of Health:-
(d) falls away. "
"Are there any arrangements made by your Department for a relieving district Surgeon in the event of a district Surgeon going on leave? If not, why not?"
QUESTION NO. 90: Mr. T. M. Makaula asked the Minister of the Interior:-
REPLY: "No. The district Surgeon in terms of his contract is to provide a locum tenens at his own cost."
"(a) Is the Honourable Minister aware that some Transkeians employed i nthe Republic do not get an opportunity to vote due to not being released on time by their employers?
QUESTION NO. 94: Mr. S. W. Mbanga asked the Minister of Health :—
(b) If he is aware, what steps have been taken to ensure that in future they are released at reasonable times to cast their votes?"
"(a) Why was a black doctor who was recruited from the Republic of South Africa on the official promise that he would be placed as a Principal Medical Officer at the Butterworth Hospital, employed on arrival as a Medical Officer, while white doctors three years his juniors assumed duties at the same hospital as full-fledged Principal Medical Officers?
REPLY:
"(a) I am not aware of such cases. (b) Employers cannot legally or otherwise be enforced to release employees during working hours to cast their votes.
(b) Why was the said black doctor required to serve a six months' probationary period before being promoted to the rank of Principal Medical Officer?"
Notwithstanding the aforementioned employers are continuously by means of the radio and the press, prevailed upon before any election to assist their employees who are registered voters to cast their votes."
REPLY:
QUESTION NO. 91 :
"(a) At the time of appointment of the doctor in question it was the policy of the Republican Department of Health to appoint in circumstances where a severe shortage of Medical Practitioners existed newly qualified persons as Principal Medical Officers . It was presumed that the local Public Service Commission would follow the same procedure. However, on consideration of this the Public Service Commission decide to to appoint him as a Medical Officer.
Mr. H. H. Zibi asked the Minister of Education:"As there are children from outside attending classes at the Technical School till late in the night could the Minister make suitable arrangements with some bus concern to take home the said children at time up to avoid possible affliction on them whilst returning to their respective places of abode?”
(b) After 6 months it was decided to reapply for his promotion and this was accepted. The situation at present with regard to seconded Medical Officers is that they cannot be appointed as Principal Medical Officers unless they have had at least 5 years experience ."
REPLY: "These are part-time classes for people who are in full employment during the day. The part-time students are expected to make their own arrangements with the assistance of their Principal. The Department cannot enter into contract with bus firms for conveying such students to their various places of abode after night calsses."
QUESTION NO. 95: Mr. S. W, Mbanga asked the Minister of Health:"(a) Was it appreciated that the difference in salaries of a Principal Medical Officer and a Medical Officer and a Medical Officer amounted to more than R3 000 00 a year?
QUESTION NO. 92. Chief M. D. Nonkonyana asked the Minister of Health:-
(b) To what extent has this apparent discrimination ruined the chances of recruiting medical staff for the Transkei ?"
"(a) Whether his Department has given consideration to the distribution of skimmed milk in an effort to combat disease.
REPLY: "(a) Yes, at the lower end of the salary scale for Medical Officers.
(b) If so, what steps are being taken or are contemplated for such distribution? 219.
"Since there is no stipulated number of stock in a speculator's licence upon which the licencee must work, why do the Agricultural Officers stipulate five head of stock when issuing permits in Umzimkulu?"
(b) There is no discrimination so the question fall away. QUESTION NO. 96: Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry :“(a) What was the average yield for the following crops per acre last year:
REPLY: "It is the policy of this Department to conserve all the natural resources of the Transkei.
In order to assist speculators with their business in overgrazed areas a special concession is made for them to introduce a limited number of stock at a time."
(i) Mealies; (ii) Kaffir corn; (iii) Potatoes; (iv) Beans; and (v) Wheat?
QUESTION NO. 98:
(b) What is the average estimated yield of the above crops this year?
Chief M. X. Moni asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:-
(c) Do you consider the Transkei citizen to have made any progress towards producing more food during the last 10 years?
"(a) Does the Minister know that in 1971 water weirs were put up at Lower Seplan and at Seplan, and no water came through the pipe at Lower Seplan, and at Seplan the pipe has always been clogged up and water is still unavailable?
(d) If the reply is no, what steps do you intend taking to remedy this situation?"
(b) The people of Stokwe's Basin sent representatives to the office on the same question of water, and they were promised that the matter would be put right. May the Minister therefore tell the House as to why these complaints have not been attend to?"
REPLY:
"(a)
(b)
(i) Maize (ii) Grain Sorghum (iii) Not available (iv) Dry beans (v) Not available
REPLY:
(i) Mealies (ii) Grain Sorghum (iii) Not available (i) Dry beans (v) Not available
"As explained on numerous previous occasions it is virtually impossible to ascertain which installation is being referred to unless the registered number of T number is given. In any event it must be borne in mind that it is the people using the installations responsibility to keep it free of debris, silt etc.
= 1
3,5 bags 1 hect. 1,4 -
=
1,5
It is assumed that the 'weirs' referred to under (a) is T33602 which is presently under repair.
= =
3,2 Bags 1 hect. 1,5
The installation referred to under (b) could be T33605 which was inspected on 22.1.75 and found to be in working order."
=
1,2 DISCUSSION OF REPORT ON DRAFT CONSTITUTION
(c) The average maize yield per hectare in 1966 was 3,0 bags 1 hect compared to 4,4 bags 1 hect in 1975. There are however a considerable number of individual farmers who have improved their production. A survey carried out by the department during 1975 showed that the average maize yields of co-operative members who used departmentally recommended maize seed, fertilizer and insecticides was 12,8 bags per hactare compared to 4,4, bags per hectare for farmers who followed the traditional farming pattern. (d) All attempts of my department to increase food production e.g. Farm planning, Extension services, demonstration plots etc. will be fruitless the farming community of the Transkei becomes motivated to increase their personal efforts towards this goal. It is therefore the duty of all the leaders to assist the department in its efforts to encourage and motivate farmers to produce more food.
MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon CHIEF members, the recess committee was appointed during the session of 1974 with the following terms of reference :Motion No. 2 adopted by the Transkeian Legislative Assembly at its 1974 session, reading as follows :"That in the opinion of this Legislative Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of approaching the Republican Government to grant full independence to the Transkei within a period of five years on the following conditions:(a) That the land promised to the Transkei in terms of the 1936 legislation of the Union of South Africa be granted to the Territory within a period of five years; (b) That such a grant shall not prejudice the right of the Transkei to the Districts originally claimed; and
In order to render better services to the farming community it is intended to establish more cooperatives to provide farmers with the departmentally recommended farming requisites, implementing marketing schemes and the provision of proper marketing facilities for the major agricultural products, refresher traing courses for staff, obtaining professional advice and assistance from outside the Transkei when and if necessary."
(c) That a Recess Committee consisting of 26 members of this House with the Chief Minister as Chairman and 27th member be appointed by this House to consider:
QUESTION NO. 97:
(i) drafting Constitutional proposals to be tabled before the House of Assembly for legislation declaring the Transkei an independent state;
Mr. L. S. Baleni asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:-
(ii) the financial implications of the said independence on the Transkei ;
220.
(iii) the boundaries of the aforesaid state;
known as Makwai and he also occupied portion of Matatiele. Mount Frere was occupied by the Bacas under Chief Makaula while Mount Fletcher was occupied by three chiefs - Lehana, Lebenya and Zibi. Mount Ayliff was occupied by the AmaXesibe under Chief Jojo. Qumbu, Tsolo and Maclear were occupied by the Mpondomisi under Chief Mhlontlo and Mditshwa. Umzimkulu was occupied by the Ntlangwini under Chief Sidoyi. Pondoland (Paramount Chief Faku's land consisted of the following districts: Port St John's, Lusikisiki, Bizana, Flagstaff, Tabankulu, Libode and Ngqeleni, and also Alfred Countyi.e. Harding.) Pondoland was later divided into east west that is, Eastern and Western Pondoland. Tembuland (comprising the districts of Cofimvaba, Cala and Elliot, which was known as Xalanga district and was named after Major Elliot after colonization, Emjanyana, Engcobo, Umtata, Elliotdale and Mqanduli.) Emjanyana district was later incorporated into Engcobo. i.e. Transkei Proper (comprising Fingoland Butterworth, Tsomo and Nqamakwe; and Gcalekalandi.e, Idutywa, Kentani and Willowvale.) Now, Sir, this is the area which comprised the Transkeian Territories but this does not now comprise the area which is sought in so far as the Constitution of the Transkei is concerned because of a certain misunderstanding between the Transkeian and Republican Governments on the teeritory - a matter which we think will be sorted out as years go by. When we have to negotiate on these matters we hope that the next generation will understand our situation and avoid unpleasantness on a matter which should be settled amicably. Mr Chairman, it is interesting to not that in 1854 Sir George Grey, the British Governor of the Cape Colony and High Commissioner, ruled that the whole area across the Kei River right through to Natal should be brought under colonial rule. I am doing this to let the world know that the Transkei has never been a homeland. The Transkei was a territory which was brought under the colonial rule of the British Government by a process of annexation laws, so the term "homeland" as far as we are concerned is a misnomer. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. CHIEF MINISTER : The world should know that we are claiming our independence not because we want to get away from the discrimination , apartheid os segregation which is the practice in the Republic of South Africa. We fell under this system, under this unhalthy situation, not because we wanted to do so. Mr Chairman, this process of annexation began in 1872 and was completed in 1894. First of all Fingoland, the Idutywa Reserve and East Griqualand those territories were annexed in 1879. Port St John's was annexed in 1884. You will note that the white residents of Port St John's regarded this territory as their heritage. Well, they Occupied it by this process of annexation. Thirdly, Tembuland, Gcalekaland and Bomvanaland in 1885 and in fourthly Emigrant Tembuland - my territory 1887; and finally Pondoland in 1894. Mr Chairman, I am not making an assertion when I say the whole process was a scramble for colonial power by the British Government of the Cape Province. The scramble was taking place through the whole of Africa and many countries in the whole of Africa fell into the same position in which we find ourselves today. None of these countries can say they escaped from their colonial powers because of military exercises. You will find that right through Africa the people have clamoured for liberation and by so doing they negotiated with the colonial power which exercised control over them. I hope the Press is listening, because they are the people whoare really confusing the issue. Now, Mr Chairman, the Transkei consists of not a tribe but a nation. There are twelve tribes in the Transkei and this should be noted. The Press consistently refers to the Transkei as a tribal area. We feel this is an insult to our nationhood. The tribes comprising the Transkei are :Fingoes, Gcalekas, Bomvanas, Tembus, Pondos, Mpondomisi, Bacas, Sesothos, Hlubis, Ntlangwini , Xesibes and the Tswanas. The Tswanas, if you may know, Mr
(iv) the implication of the said independence on the Chieftainship of the various Tribes in the Transkei ; (v) the possibility of opening negotiations with the Ciskei Government on the amalgamation of the two Units into one National Unit in terms of the Promotion of Bantu Self-Government Act 1959; (vi) the international relations between the Transkei and the Republic of South Africa: (vii) other incidental matters pertaining to the contemplated independent state of the Transkei; (viii) that the Republican Government be asked to make available certain officials to serve in an advisory capacity on the said Committee." Sir, the report of the said committee was tabled for the information of members yesterday. Now, the Constitution which is consequential to the deliberations of this committee was also tabled and everything which appears in the Terms of Reference has been answered by those constitutional proposals except (a) — the land promised to the Transkei. Sir, I may shortly reply to this, that the land which was promised to the Transkei is in process of being transferred to the Transkeian Government. The whole quota which was promised to the Transkei in terms of the 1936 legislation as far as the Republic is concerned was purchased. I am talking in terms of the promise made by the Republican Government, not in accordance with the wishes of the Transkeian people, and this is a matter which will always form the subject of deliberations even after independence. Mr Chairman, your committee met and deliberated on 9 April 1974, 17 April 1974, 25 April 1974, 9 May 1974, 6 June 1974, 20 August 1974, 2 April 1975, 15 May 1975, 20 August 1975, 2 February 1976, 4 February 1976 and 28 April 1976. Your committee wishes to place on record the fact that negotiations with the Ciskeian Government on a possible amalgamation with the Ciskei could not be proceeded with as all approaches to that Government in this connection met with a negative response. Consequently the matter was shelved but the door was left open. Your committee wishes to record its gratitude to the following members of the Working Committee :Messrs I. P. van Onselen (Chairman), C. J. Grobler, Dr R. A. du Plooy, H. J. R. Myburg, S. Visagie (all members representing the Republican Government), Professor H. J. Chapman of Rhodes University, K. A. Fauré (Secretary to the Chief Minister's Department) and V. R. Zietsman (Law Adviser to the Transkeian Government), these three gentlemen representing the Transkeian Government. Their advice and guidance throughout was invaluable. The result has been the draft Constitution which has been made available to hon members and for general information to the country as a whole. Mr Chairman, before I move that this House should discuss this Conhstitution clause by clause I think that in order that the world should understand the unique position of the Transkei you should allow me to give a historical account of the country which is now seeking to be independent of the Republic of South Africa. The Transkei consisted historically of four territories, namely:East Griqualand (consisting of Kokstad -- i.e. Mount Currie - Matatiele, Mount Frere, Mount Fletcher, Maclear, Tsolo, Qumbu and Umzimkulu). Kokstad was a district, land which was given to Adam Kok by the Paramount Chief of the Pondos, Paramount Chief Faku. Matatiele was under the various tribes and certain chiefs at the time were Nehemiah Moshesh and Chief Ludidi. Another chief there was 221.
Chairman, inhabit two locations in the Mount Fletcher district. Now, these tribes comprise the Xhosa-speaking people. They are not Xhosas that should be understood. I am not a Xhosa. Chief J. D. Moshesh next to me is not a Xhosa. Mr Guzana is a Pondo. And , Mr Chairman, the history of this country is interesting because local government was started in this country long before the Union of South Africa. In the Transkei, Pondoland and East Griqualand there was a form of local government and this was introduced by the then Prime Minister of the Cape of Good Hope, Cecil Rhodes, by passing an Act which allowed these councils to be established. The Glen Grey Act - that is where the whole council system started in an area which was raped by the British Government from Tembuland. The council was extended to the Transkei and in 1930 the United Transkeian Territories General Council was established which was the forerunner of what the constitutional position of the Transkei was going to be. In 1910 when the Union of South Africa was established, all these areas I am talking about in the Transkei formed part of the Transkei and all the magistrates in these areas were under the Chief Magistrate of the Transkei. It was only on 1 January 1914 that the two districts of Elliot and Maclear were disannexed from the Transkeian Territories and annexed to the Cape Colony. At the time the Transkei was regarded as a territory which was occupied by the Native people of the area. Well, after the establishment of the Union of South Africa I need not tell this House or the country what happened when the black people became the subjects of discriminatory laws left and right, and were humiliated, suppressed. But let it be known that the people of these territories never abandoned the idea of becoming an independent state one day. To support my submission, you will find in all the Blue Books of the General Council requests being made to the Union Government that the Transkei be given legislative powers. By legislative powers we mean they should make their own laws -- legislative and executive powers. That is why, in the latter part of 1945, round about that time certain people were made chairman of district councils. The whole intention was to give legislative and executive powers to the people of these territories. Now, Sir, in 1961 a motion tabled in this House by Mr Lingham Maninjwa requested that the Union Government at the time (I don't think it was a Republic at the time because the Republic was established during the latter part of 1961. It was on 31 May and I think this motion was tabled before 31 May 1961 ) - this motion requested the Union Government to grant the Transkei self-government and as South Africa became a republic on 31 May 1961 under the premiership of the late Dr H. F. Verwoerd, he dramastically announced in the 1962 House of Assembly session in Cape Town the granting of self-government to the Transkei with a Legislative Assembly, and for the first time the people a of these territories exercised universal franchise requirement, an essential of citizenship. In other words, up to 1936 the people of these territories were not citizens of the Republic of South Africa and anybody who says we were citizens of this country should turn to his dictionary or constitutional law to understand exactly what is meant by a citizen of a country. A citizen of a country should participate in the framing of the laws of that country .
passed a resolution calling upon the Republican Government of South Africa to grant independence over the 29 districts I have referred to, but that Government ignored the motion and did nothing about it until 1974 when another resolution was passed - the one I have just referred to. This time the Honourable the Prime Minister of the Republic, B. J. Vorster, during the 19744 session of the House of Assembly in Cape Town announced in September that the Government of South Africa had decided to grant independence to the Transkei. Now, when this resolution was passed a recess committee was appointed and it is the recess committee which is tabling this report. In this report you will find the word "unanimously". This is not correct. This should be altered . "Motion No. 2 adopted by the Legislative Assembly ...." and delete the word "unanimously". If my memory serves me correctly (and I think I am correct) there was an amendment by the Opposition moved by the hon the Leader of the Opposition that before the Transkei can opt for independence a referendum should be conducted to get the views of the Transkei as to whether they will accept independence or not. Now, Sir, to meet the requirements of the Opposition the recess committee decided to conduct a referendum by getting the views of all the people who could understand what is involved in what was sought. These people involved all the associations of the Transkei the tribal authorities, regional authorities, Women's Associations, Traders' Associations, Teachers' Associa tion, Civil Servants' Association, Police Association and all associations we could find in the Transkei. Now, I table a report of the results of this memorandum showing exactly what consultation had been made by the tribes and it will interest you to find that so far as the tribes were concerned meetings of all the members of the tribes were summoned. You will find there were votes of over a thousand of these meetings, which shows this was a proper referendum and nobody was going to mislead anyone by saying they must put an X there because the people could not understand the implications of what was said. This was interesting in that before the people had to decide whether they wished to be an independent state they had discussions, put their views and an interesting situation took place in Western Pondoland where I think there were over 3000 Pondos gathered and the Paramount Chief addressed his people and said: "Look, the Transkei is opting for independence. What do you say, pou Pondos?" This is a recent thing, Mr Chairman. You will find it on page 5 of the report. The Pondos said: "Chief, we all want independence. If you don't want independence we will leave you in your kraal and you will have youngsters as counsellors in your kraal. As far as we are concerned we are going with the Chief Minister of the Transkei." That shows that the people of the Transkei - 86% of them according to this --want independence. The results are as follows:- For Independence G 125 424; against 13 945. Mr Chairman, I want to convince everybody that there must be no doubt in your minds that the Transkei has long been a country which should have had its independence not now, but many years ago. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. CHIEF MINISTER : Malawi and Zambia were part of the Federation of Rhodesia but because of the desire to enjoy freedom (those are the black people -your brothers) they wanted to run away from white suppression in Southern Rhodesia and they decided to opt for independence. They were territories like you and people who will say that to ask for our own independence is to accept apartheid are talking nonsense. We have never accepted apartheid and have never been a party to it. It was imposed on us. I think, gentlemen, I have exhausted my preliminary remarks on this matter and at this juction I move that the House adjourn until 2.30 because the Cabint has an appointment with an important personality at 2.15. The House adjourned.
MEMBERS: Hear, hear. CHIEF MINISTER: We never participated in the House of Assembly in Cape Town and therefore we could never claim we were citizens of South Africa. Now, Mr Chairman, I wish to pay tribute to those leaders who were the forerunners of the state of affairs today. These are the Paramount Chiefs of Eastern and Western Pondoland (I refer to Paramount Chief Botha Sigcau and the late Paramount Chief Victor Poto), Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo, the late Paramount Chief Zwelidumile Sigcau , Messrs Elijah Qamata, Charles Sakwe, C. W. Monakali, Chief Douglas Ndamase, Lingham Maninjwa, E. A. Pinyane, Bungane Mgudlwa and others who took part in the deliberations of the Transkeian Territorial Authority, including fyself, Chief George Matanzima, Chief S. S. Majeke, Mr Saul Mabude and Chief George Moshesh. These are the man we regard as having been the leaders of the Transkei. In 1968 the Legislative Assembly
AFTERNOON SESSION The House resumed. CHAIRMAN : Hon members been brought to my notice that Press in the galleries misbehaved a way that the are not fit to be 222 .
of the House, it has some members of the flagrantly and in such accommodated in this
House. The Press are the foremost people who should know the discipline of every House of Parliament. In fact, they may behave in any way save by smoking in the gallery. I am warning them to desist from that habit. They are there by sheer privilege and they should remember that.
tories and districts mentioned in the first and second columns of Schedule 1 , together with the seashore and territorial waters thereof and such other land as may be added thereto, is a sovereign independent State and a republic. (2) Umtata shall be seat of government of the Republic of Transkei in all its activities.
DISCUSSION OF REPORT ON DRAFT CONSTITUTION The debate was resumed. CHIEF MINISTER : Now, Mr Chairman and hon members, coming back to the Constitution, you will notice that our Constitution is divided into several Chapters and this being a mere draft we are going to consider it by way of motion , then when it has been framed into a bill for consideration by the Legislative Assembly later in the year we shall move it as a bill. You will find on the first page · that is, on the outside page - that we call this State " Republic of Transkei ". There is no "The" before "Transkei ". It is simply "Republic of Transkei". Now, we say this draft bill to constitute the Republic of Transkei and to provide for incidental matters is published for general information.
CHIEF MINISTER: Chapter 1 is merely the establishment of the State of Transkei - the Republic of Transkei consisting of the territories I have referred to of nine regions and the 28 districts of Transkei , which will appear if you look at the back of your Constitution in the first schedule on page 28. That is subsection (1). Subsection (2) states that Umtata will be the seat of government. I move the adoption of this section. M/HEALTH : I second. CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, I would like to make an explanation that we should not deal with this Constitution on party lines. There are no parties. We must be free to express our views on the workings of this committee and in order to arrive at a just decision we must act as Transkeian citizens. Forget your parties now.. MR D. J. NDLELĒNI : Mr Chairman , I have just pertains a small comment to make on this chapter. 66 This such other to the word "may" in section 1 (1) land as may be added thereto ....". This House will correct me and I will be happy if I am wrong to think that in this case, to my understanding, "may" is privílege. There may be land added to the Transkei or there may not. MR M. P. LUDIDI : Mr Chairman, I wish to make a few comments and question the members of the recess committee concerning Clause 1 (1 ). This refers to the question of land. The hon the Chief Minister of the Transkei and the leader of the recess committee said in his introductory address that the lands that were promised to the Transkei are now being bought. I do not know, Mr Chairman, whether I misheard him later on when he went on to say that the question of lands such as Kokstad, Matatiele and Maclear (which are indeed part of the Transkei as far as I am concerned) may be left for future generations, or I don't know whether negotiations are going on. Here, Mr Chairman, I am subject to his correction. When we introduced this motion asking for independence the people of the Transkei, shall I say, had odd views concerning the motion. Some asked if it were a safe and wise move to call for independence without a definite and official promise that Kokstad, the Matatiele farms, Matatiele town, Maclear, Elliot all the areas which are not covered by the Land Act of 1936 - would be added to the Transkei. Mr Chairman , we are going to the electorate just before the general election and I think the main issue will be the Constitution and the independence of the Transkei. CHIEF MINISTER : Have you looked at the motion? Motion No 2? Does it speak about these other areas you are talking about? MR LUDIDI: No, Sir. CHIEF MINISTER : Well, debate the motion. MR LUDIDI: I am still coming to my question. Sir, we passed a series of motions in connection with those areas which the hon the Chief Minister referred to in his introductory speech and I would like to know the attitude of the Republican Government with regard to the lands which the motion spoke about. I think in paragraph (b) of the motion it speaks about the Transkei not being prejudiced in claiming additional lands. I would like to know the response of the Republican Government in regard to that, since there is the phrase "land that may be added to it". So , as I have said, Mr Chairman, I am subject to correction but those are my comments. MR Z. W. LUFUFENI: Mr Chairman, still in regard to Chapter 1 - Republic of Transkei. As it has been stated that we should not regard ourselves as belonging to political parties in this House I must therefore say what I think. Before we enter into the discussion of each clause , what I would like to be made clear is when we are told we are going to get our independence does it mean that we are going to get
The Preamble The Preamble is very important. It is the basis of this document. It is the preamble which shows what kind of a government we are going to be. Our Constitution is based on the British Constitution which has the Monarchy without executive powers. That is the British Constitution, and that is also the South African Constitution. There are other states in Africa with a similar system Lesotho, for example, and Swaziland, but most of the African States adopted the French system which has executive powers wielded in the President. In other words, the President is Head of State and is also the ruler of the country. Now, in the British system the King or the President of the State acts on the advice of his Ministers. The preamble is clear and I do not think I need read it, but it is important for the public that the Preamble should be read. It reads as follows:PREAMBLE. In the Name of God. Amen. In the faith that the One Eternal God is the source of all authority, wisdom, justice and morality, and in humble acknowledgement that we and all mankind are subject to His Laws; We, the people of Transkei rightfully represented in this Assembly, do hereby adopt, enact and give to ourselves this Constitution. We solemnly resolve to constitute Transkei into a sovereing and i We solemnly resolve to constitute Transkei in a sovreign and independent Republic wherein its citizens and all others who dwell lawfully within its borders are assured of social, political and economic justice, freedom of speech, assembly and worship, and unimpeded across to and equality before the Law, And we do further determine to use the powers which we do hereby take to ourselves for the promotion of the spiritual and material well-being of all in our midst, the maintenance of law and order, the defence of our country against its enemies and the furtherance of peace among the nations of the world. Hon members, you will note that in the Preamble we used the word "we" meaning that this Constitution is the proerty of the Transkeian eole. It is their State. I now move the adotion of the Preamble. M/HEALTH: I second. Put and agreed to. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, I move that we deal with this Constitution section by section. M/INTERIOR: I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to.
CHAPTER 1
:
REPUBLIC OF TRANSKEI
Establishment Transkei of Republic of 1.
(1) Transkei consisting of the terri223.
or less central in the Transkei so that it will be the seat of your legislative body, the seat of your administrative offices, the head of your judicial system. That is the meaning which is conveyed when it is stated that Umtata will be the seat of government of the Republic of Transkei. I hope I have explained this matter. MR P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman, I wish to ask a few questions. I understand that today we have independence. What I want to know is as we have been granted independence to day, where are we now situated?
freedom? (Laughter) When, rior to this, we sought independent but were given a sham government, can we expect to get a different independence which will grant freedom to us? When we go back to the electorate we must not just tell them we are getting independence. We should be able to tell them they are going to receive freedom. When we visited tribal and regional authorities people wanted to know more about independence and asked us to make things clear to them. I would that the hon the Chief Minister, before passing over these clauses, should at least explain to me what is meant by the independence of the Transkei. People are now wide awake and we cannot just go to them and tell them anything. CHAIRMAN: Hon members of the House, whilst members are allowed to speak as they please, irrespective of party politics, I request hon members to be concise and to the point. At present we are dealing with the specific Constitution which is before us here clause by clause or item by item. We shall have to do away with generalization now and be specific. CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, I wish to draw the attention of the House to the fact that the motion was exhaustively discussed in this House in 1974 and all the principles involved were put to the House. Any member who wanted to criticize it was free to do so on that occasion. You see the members are now discussing the principles of the motion and getting away from the motion completely. For example, the first speaker talks about the land promised and he is following my remarks. My remarks related to the criticisms of the world and not to this motion. It is specific in paragraph (a) of the motion that we refer to land promised to the Transkei in terms of the 1936 legislation and I think all the people saw the land which was given to us and this was explained at various meetings by the Chief Minister and the whole Cabinet. We explained the land which had given to the Transkei by the Republic in terms of the 1936 Act. Mr Chairman, I appeal to you that MEMBER: Look at the word "may". CHIEF MINISTER: That word was used because we cannot force anyone to give land. We can only take the land given to us. The alternative to "may" is "must". Is the member prepared to force anybody to give land? MR D. NDAMASE : Mr Chairman, still dealing with Chapter 1 , something has been said about the territorial waters and the seashore. Can we not also claim the sky above (Laughter) because aeroplanes travel in the sky and they should be controlled? CHIEF D. D. MLINDAZWE : Mr Chairman, in subsection 1 (2) it says Umtata shall be the seat of government of the Republic of Transkei in all its activities. Now, what I want the recess committee to explain is whether that intends that the Government will be stationed in Umtata or whether it will only be the Ministers of the Cabinet and the President. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, may I seek through you to give hon members of this House the assurance that no idea is too stupid nor too wise not to be expressed here, and please feel free to speak your minds because we want you to do this thing the way you want it done, in your own way. The sky is above the land and if you own the land you own the sky above that land, so that no country can claim the airspace above a country which is not that country's airspace. It is therefore not necessary to spell out the fact that the sky is also part of the Transkei, nor do we have to state that minerals in the bowels of the soil which forms part of the Transkei belong to the Transkei. ThUis fowllows automatically . What we cannot do is to claim the other continent - probably Australia which is directly under us, and say it is ours. Now, the seat of government is the plac where you have your legislative and administrative offices. This is not in respect of the Republic of South Africa, where you have the legislative capital being Cape Town and the administrative capital being Pretoria, and this was done specifically to assuage and soften parochial feelings between the Transvaler and the Capetonian. No doubt you must have heard in some years past that Bloemfontein has been considered because of its central position as probably the ideal lace where the legislative capital and the administrative capital could be fused . Now, if that is desirable in respect of the Reublic of South Africa, here we have a situation where Umtata is more
MR S. P. BHURALI: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, we are having an instance here of your powers being overruled. You have told us to be precise and to concern ourselves with what is before this House. These irrelevancies are going to carry us nowhere. There is a lot of work to be done and explanations given. Please let us go on with the Constitution. CHAIRMAN : I would like to remind the hon member on the floor that we are dealing with clause 1 of Chapter 1 and, as I indicated , we should be specific on paragraphs (1 ) and (2). Please comply before I rule you out of order. CHIEF G. W. NKWENKWEZI : Mr Chairman, on clause 1 - Republic of Transkei . What I would like explained is this: Should our neighbours in the Ciskei accept amalgamation, what will they be called? Will they also fall within the Republic of Transkei? MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, I am not at all worried about people who want to talk and I think, gentlemen, let the people talk. Let us not pass any remarks to discourage anybody from talking. The hon members, Chief Nkwenkwezi , wants to know what the position will be in the event of the Ciskei joining the Transkei. It would be presumptuous for this Assembly to determine what shall be the position when the Ciskei joins the Transkei, because amalgamation is a subject of consultation and exchange of views. It may well be that when the Ciskei joins the Transkei this will be called Xhosaland Republic or any other name. All that will be important is that the two will be coming together and, having come together, there will neither be a Mr nor a Mrs. They will be on an equal footing. MR Z. W. LUFEFENI : Mr Chairman, on Chapter 1 with reference to Schedule 1 , when the hon the Chief Minister addressed us he stated that Elliotdale was a district in Tembuland, but now he has referred to Elliotdale as part of Gcalekaland. How was Elliotdale removed from Tembuland? CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, I was merely giving a historical sketch of the Transkei . Now, the hon member was present when Elliotdale was added to Gcalekaland region and he knows all about it. It took lace a long time ago - - I think it was in 1968. I do not think it is now equitable for me to reply to this question and I think that is a question which the member should take up with his region. I move the adoption of this section. Clause 1 put and agreed to. CHAPTER 2. THE PRESIDENT. Office and powers of President. 2. (1 ) There shall be a President of the Republic of Transkei who shall be the Head of State and in his person a unifying symbol for all the peoples of Transkei. (2) Subject to the provisions of this Act, the President shall have power — (a) to appoint the times for the holding of sessions of Parliament and to prorogue Parliament; (b) to dissolve the National Assembly; (c) to appoint and accredit, to
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receive and to recognize ambassadors, plenipotentiaries, diplomatic representatives and other diplomatic officers, consuls and consular officials; (d) to enter into and ratify conventions , international treaties and agreements; (e) to confer honours; (f) to pardon or reprieve offenders either conditionally or unconditionally; (g) to remit fines, penalties or forfeitures; and (h) to declare war or to make peace and to proclaim or terminate martial law.
might become our own. With regard to (g) it means that the President can say fines can be remitted. When a person has been convicted in a court of law to pay so much then the President can decide that such penalty or fine and any forfeitures which a person was required to make should be remitted . In other words, he might absolve someone or alter the decision of the court. The decision of the courts cannot be altered until they are altered by an Appeal Court. MR K. G. NOTA: Mr Chairman , I would like an explanation of the final phrase in subsection (4)(a) — "by way of prerogatibe". CHIEF D. D. MLINDAZWE: Mr Chairman, may we have an explanation from the recess committee in regard to subsection (2)(b) , that the President shall have power to dissolve the National Assembly. Before the President dissolves the National Assembly will he have consulted with the Cabinet or a committee? CHIEF MINISTER: I would draw the attention of the hon member to the definition of Executive Council which is constituted under section 18(2) . Now, when we refer to the President we mean the President acting on the advice of his Executive Countil. In other words , the President cannot do anything alone. He cannot just dissolve the Assembly. The Cabinet will advise him to dissolve the Assembbly. MR P. N. NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman, I would like to be informed whether it will be a chief or any other person who will be appointed as President. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, further to the question by the hon Chief Mlindazwe, it is very important, and if members will turn to Chapter 4, clause 17 (1) they will see that the executive power of the Republic shall vest in the President acting on the advice of the Executive Council and any reference to the President shall be construed as a reference to the President acting on the advice of the Executive Council. In regard to the other question, anybody can be elected as President, including Mr Nkosiyane, the hon member for Mqanduli. (Laughter) MR NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman, the reason why I put this question is because in the Transkei it is the chiefs who are the rulers. In Britain where the Euglish live chieftainship is practised. The Queen is the President of Britain.
(3) The President shall be the commander-in-chief of the defence forces of Transkei and, subject to such conditions as may be prescribed by or under any law, may (a) mobilize and call out the defence forces or any part art thereof for operational purposes or otherwise for the maintenance of law and order, the preservation of the peace, the protection of life, health or property or the provision or continuance of essential services; and (b) confer commissioned rank in the defence forces on any person serving or qualified to serve therein and give to such person a commoission under his hand. (4) (a) The President shall, in addition, as Head of State have such powers, authorities and functions as were, immediately prior to the commencement of this Act possessed by the State President of the Republic of South Africa in his capacity as Head of State of that republic by way of prerogative. (b) The constitutional conventions which immediately prior to the commencement of this Act related to the exercise by the said State President of his powers, authorities and functions by way of prerogative or otherwise shall govern the exercise by the President of the powers, authorities and functions conferred upon him by this Act or any other law.
CHIEF J. NTOLA: Mr Chairman, I would like to know if one person can hold both the offices of President and any portfolio. I also want to know if we are going to deal with the appellation of Chief Minister. Will we assume the title of Prime Minister after independence? CHIEF MINISTER: I shall reply first of all to the question about the prerogative of the President. This section (4)(a) means that everything which was conferred on the State President of the Republic of South Africa will be conferred on the President of Transkei . Any rights, any prerogative that he enjoyed will be enjoyed by the President of Transkei . If you want an example of a prerogative , first of all it is the respect which we accord him and the loyalty that should be given to him and the fact that you cannot abuse him. Another example is the White Train. Now, Mr Ncokazi, for examle, will no more talk about the President after 26 October. (Laughter) With regard to the other question, Mr Chairman, I think I referred to this in my preliminary remarks that we, as a recess committee, decided to take the British model, which is the South African model that is, of having a President or King and then the Cabinet with a Prime Minister. We felt that the French system is not our heritage. We know nothing about it where you have one man ruling a country; where you have the powers of the President and the Prime Minister in one man. We do not say we were imposing that on the House. You can decide whether you want the French or the South African system, which is taken from the British system, but what we know is that there is always trouble in all countries which have had the executive powers wielded in one man. The other question about the Chief Minister the Chief Minister does not appear in this Constitution. If you look at the definitions you will find no reference to a Chief Minister , nor is there Native, Kaffir or Bantu in this Constitution . MR Z. W. LUFEFENI : Mr Chairman, still on the question of the President, what will be the qualifications necessary for a President? Will he be appointed because
CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, Clause 2 merely refers to the appointment of the President of the Republic of Transkei who shall be Head of State, and the powers which the Constitution will confer on him. I move accordingly. CHIEF S. C. JOJO : I second. MR M. P. LUDIDI: Mr Chairman, I am interested to be informed of the implications of paragraph (2)(e) - "to confer honours". What kind of honours? MR W. M. MADIKIZELA : In regard to paragraph (g) of subsection (2) , Mr Chairman "to remit fines, penalties or forfeitures" I would like an explanation. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, in reply to the questions on (e) and (g), a person is not merely called "Sir" unless that has been conferred on him, or "Lord So-and-so" or a Knight or something like that. These are matters which take place in other countries which
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3. (1) The President shall be elected at a meeting of the National Assembly sitting as an electoral college under the chairmanship of the Chief Justice or another judge.
of his greatness or because of his educational qualifications? I ask because we were satisfied when Cabinet Ministers were elected. I can see even now they are qualified people. CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, I think that question can be asked on section 4. The hon member has evidently not read the Constitution. MR L. S. BALENI: Mr Chairman, in regard to subsection (4)(a) I would like some motivation from the recess committee in regard to the powers, authorities and functions of the President, because we do not know the powers of the Republican President and we would like clarification on this. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, it is not possible by each word and sentence to describe all the powers and duties of a President, and this also relates to his authorities and functions. If the hon member would look at section 2(2) he will see some of these powers, authorities and functions detailed there, but that is not altogether exhaustive. For instance, the President may be required to open parliament. That is one of the functions not itemized there. He may be required to open a national Eisteddfod held in the Transkei. This is one of the functions not mentioned. There may be a conference here or a seminar on an international basis to deal with agro-pastoral evolution , and he may be requested to declare such a seminar open or to welcome that seminar to Umtata. You see, the powers have been described under subsection (2) and in order not to load the Constitution with detail we are providing there for these powers, authorities and functions as are vested in the President of the Republic, just as much as the powers, authorities and functions of the Republican President derive by convention (that is, by unwritten law) from the powers, authorities and functions of the Queen of England. In consultation, for instance, with the Executive Council the President may use his prerogative to declare 26 October of each year a public holiday. These are merely examples, but not exhaustive, and that is why there has been no minute definition. This is covered by using the phrase "by way of prerogative" - a prerogative which vests in him by reason of the fact that he is the First Citizen of Transvaal who exercises his powers, authorities and functions as the supreme head of the State, unaffiliated to any political party because he is in effect the father figure of the State and he exercises his authority by reason of being the father as benevolently as a father exercises his authority over his family. I hope I have satisfied the hon member. MR H. PAMLA: Mr Chairman, just a point of explanation and clarification, I would like to know from the members of the recess committee the precise difference between an ambassador and a plenipotentiary. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, there is very little difference between these kinds of representatives of foreign states. These are ambassadors from other countries and others are South Africans appointed in other countries. Now, ambassadors who are appointed are those people who represent South Africa, and also diplomatic representatives and plenipotentiaries. Those are people who represent other countries in the Republic. You see, there are different terms relating to these represntatives. For example, we have consuls and at times you have a Consul-General which you don't find mentioned here. In other words, it is diplomatic officers. Now, if you want the difference I will refer you to the English dictionary. I move the adoption of section 2. Agized to. CHAIRMAN: We shall pass on to the next section. MR GUZANA: No, Mr Chairman, there must be comment. I don't think the question of time is relevant here. We must remember that some of the hon members in this House do not understand English and there must be explanation and motivation, otherwise you will get people going out of this House grumbling. In other words, while we would like to get to the last fullstop at the end of the Constitution, let us go along with the members. CHAIRMAN: When the motion was passed we were dealing with section 2. It was seconded and thereafter there were comments. Clause 2 put and agreed to. Election of President.
(2) Such meeting shall, in respect of the election of the first President, be held on the day of commencement of this Act and, in respect of any subsequent election, at the time and place fixed by the Speaker or, in his absence, the secretary of the National Assembly by notice published in the Gazette not later than fourteen days before the date of such meeting.
(3) The date fixed by notice under subsection (2) shall be a date not earlier than three months and not later than fourteen days before the expiration ofthe period of office of the President or, if such office becomes vacant before that time, not later than three months after such office has become vacant. (4) No person may be elected or continue as President unless he (a) is of or above the age of thirty years; (b) has resided for five years within an area forming part of Transkei; and (c) is qualified to be a member of the National Assembly. (5) The person elected as President shall, as from the day of his election, vacate every public office in respect of which he receives any remuneration or allowance from public funds: Provided that nothing in this subsection contained shall be construed as prohibiting the retention of his title by any paramount chief or chief who is so elected. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, section 3 deals with the manner in which the President will be elected. Now, that goes with the question put by the hon member as to what kind of person the President will be. In terms of the Transkei Constitution we had as our President the State President of the Republic of South Africa that is, under the Transkei Constitution Act of 1963 - who was elected by Parliament from amongst the citizens of South Africa. Now, that will be the position in this Constitution. Whoever will be President will be elected by Parliament. You will find it in these subsections. That means the Transkeian Parliament will decide who will be President from among the citizens of Transkei. Anybody who submits his name and says : I want to be President of Transkei - will you support me? Can do so. This is according to the democratic principles which we are adopting in this country. MR K. G. NOTA: Mr Chairman, under subsection 3(4)(c) it says no person may be elected or continue as President unless he is qualified to be a member of the National Assembly. This phrase "to be" gives the impression that a person other than one who is a member of this House can be made President. I agree with the hon the Chief Minister as far as subsection 3(1) is concerned, where it is clear that the President will be elected from the National Assembly. CHIEF MINISTER: No, he will be elected by the National Assembly, but he may be anybody. MR NOTA: Not from amongst the members of the Nationalist Assembly? CHIEF MINISTER: No. MR NOTA: Unless I receive a good explanation to the effect that it is not necessary for the National Assembly to elect from amongst its members the President, which means that a President may be drawn from outside this House by this House .... CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, that is precisely the case in a democratic country. The wishes of the people are paramount. For example, when the last President of the Republic of South Africa was to be elected 226.
a person who was not a member of the House of Assembly was a candidate. As long as a person can be a member of the National Assembly but fails to obtain the votes of the country in order to be in parliament, if the members of the Legislative Assembly say they want that gentlemen because they feel he can unite the Transkei, they can elect him as President. The Assembly must be free to do so. Now, Mr Chairman, it is no good to tie down the people by Constitution that they cannot do a thing which would be in the best interests of the country. The National Assembly members are the people who exercise the vote and naturally they will keep the whole thing amongst themselves because they had the vote. Why worry about it? But you have not got to incur the criticisms of the world so that the world will say: Look at the Transkei Parliament — it is undemocratic because it wants to keep the position of President to a certain class of people. These things are settled by vote and not by the Constitution itself to tie down that this should no be done and this should be done. MR NOTA: Mr Chairman, am sure this thing was not clear to most of us. It is now clear that the President can be elected even from outside the National Assembly. I am happy with that situation , Mr Chairman, because the President is not a political figure. MR Z. W. LUFEFENI : Mr Chairman, the hon the Chief Minister has explained that the President can be anybody, even from outside the National Assembly, and he says he will be elected by Parliament by people who have been voted into this House and those who have not been voted. I do not want to be taken as a man who is not following what has bee nsaid that we should not consider party politics in this matter. When the Chief Minister appointed his members we did not say anything but we agreed , and now he is talking in front of us we are keeping quiet but they keep on remarking that So-and-so knows nothing. We wanted to know how the President has to be elected . That has been explained by the hon the Chief Minister and that is exactly what we wanted. We should not just follow thi sblindly. MR W. M. MADIKIZELA: Mr Chairman, I am becoming more puzzled now. I learn that the President can be elected from outside the National Assembly but it is stated in subsection (c) that he must be qualified to be a member of the National Assembly. That point is not clear now because it seems to have its singular aspect. Somebody may canvass to be voted as President but the people do not vote for him. I don't know why this National Assembly has been introduced into this matter. Secondly, it is stated that anyone in receipt of a salary from public funds cannot be elected , but when people are talking about a chief or paramount chief nothing is explained. What does that mean? What are they doing? MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, since the hon member holds a teacher's certificate I think I should teach him now. All students in the final JC year pay an examination fee in order to write the exam at the end of the year, and these will only be those students in the final JC year, so that if they are in the final JC year and pay their fees they qualify for the examination. When the examination is written some may pass, others may fail, but the fact that a student has failed does not necessarily mean he did not qualify for the examination. (Laughter) Now, here the clause says he should qualify to be a member of the National Assembly, and in order to qualify he or she must be over the age of 21 , must be a registered voter and should be a citizen of the Transkei. He has therefore satisfied the qualifications. He offers himself as a candidate but he even loses his deposit. He does not get where you are but all the same he did qualify to contest a seat. Unfortunately, he has failed to win a seat. Such a person is therefore qualified to be a member. It is another matter to elect him into the National Assembly. Of course, there is this other aspect of the matter. Because we insist on these qualifications, one of which is that he shall be a citizen of Transkei, we exclude the possibility of a radical element in this Assembly proposing that Idi Amin should be President of Transkei. (Laughter) Idi Amin shall not have qualified to be a member of the National Assembly by reason of the fact that he is not a citizen of the Transkei, although he is over 21 years of age. I hope
now it is as clear as mud. (Laughter) Now there is subsection (5). Where you have the Head of State deriving remuneration from public funds the Head of State is put under an obligation to that administration section which pays him out of public funds. In other words , he will tarnish his position as an undetached Head of State. He may be detached from the State but sentimentally, emotionally and benevolently attached to that State, therefore nothing must be dont to cast a reflection on his impartiality by making him obliged, for instance, to the Minister of Finance because he is drawing remuneration from a public utility corporation or something like that. He should be able to exercise his powers, authorities, privileges, etc. , without any colour of bias or susoicion as to bias by reason of the fact that he receives an allowance from public funds. However, he cannot be altogether free from receving money from government funds because he has to have a salary. He has to have allowances, but this provision seeks to limit any possibility of financial obligation which might affect his impartiality in any other way. There is provision that a paramount chief shall retain his title but he shall not draw the salary of a paramount chief. A chief may become the President, but he shall not draw his salary as a chief. A commoner can become the President; anybody in this House can be President. Anybody outside this House can become a President, but let me make this observation that it is intended that a President must no have a taint of political-party affiliation attaching to him, and in the progress of electing a President this is what usually happens: The governing party at its caucus probably thinks of a name. The Chief Whip of the governing party goes to the Chief Whip of the Opposition and suggests this name and asks the caucus of the Opposition to think round it, and if there should be very strong opposition to the name the governing party will consider dropping the name and suggesting another one, until a position is reached where the individaul is acceptable generally to both parties, so that when his name is brought up all the contenders have been eliminated by consultation and caucus deliberations. Finally there shall be only one name proposed for the position of President, because as much as we consider him to be the unifying being, so shall the Assembly in electing him be unanimous. That is the spirit behind this provision and we cannot spell this spirit out in words and sentences. Those who wish to have a unifying President shall do so in their acts so that they may elect him in spirit and in truth. The discussion was adjourned . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 5 May 1976. WEDNESDAY, 5 MAY 1976 Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon members, members will notice that the debate on the draft Constitution has been postponed because of the urgency of the financial bill. The Government programme has not come forward with regard to the bills and I am afraid we are behind schedule. I hope that in discussing the budget at the second reading stage the hon members will be concise and deal with financial matters rather than matters of policy, which will come forward at the committee stage. At a later stage I think I will have to guillotine he time allowed for speakers to contribute to the debate, but at present I want to announce that as soon as we ake over this draft Constitution Bill we shall have night sittings which may take us up till 11 or 12 o'clock. This is just a warning to members. Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. APPROPRIATION BILL
: SECOND READING
CHAIRMAN: Hon members of the House, the hon the Minister of Finance made his budget speech and it was duly seconded. Members of the House have had no opportunity as yet to comment on this bill so I shall give this opportunity to them so tha they should make comments thereon. 227.
MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, the budget speech has been nothing more than a continuing wail from the Government. The Government seeks us to accept the financial position of South Africa as it is today and nobody in his right mind could gainsay the fact that money is tight. One should in such a situation restrain one's expenditure on the realisation of ideological objectives and attend to bread-and-butter matters. In this connection one begins to ask the question as to whether or not this Republican Government's ideological exercise in relation to the Transkei is in the interests of the man in the street and everybody else who is struggling to keep his head above water. When the Transkei National Independence Party boasts that 1976 is going to bring about a realisation of its objective it is my consideration view that they should, in the financial circumsances of the country, be regretting the fact that independence should coincide with a very lean year. If they are registering jubilation over their faces, as far as I am concerned I see just a brave grin on their faces for independence of the Transkei. M/FINANCE : Does that infer that your party of five members is opposed to independence being launched this year? MR GUZANA : We have already said that quite clearly and unequivocally. - even M/FINANCE : All of you across the floor the hon member for Mount Fletcher? MR GUZANA: We have stated our view and we have stated our policy and there is nothing which is happening today which is going to make us change. Most of the expenditure which amounts to about 25% of this budget is going to be involved in putting up buildings and structures and in entertaining visitors to the tune of R580 000 · an exercise and a waste which is unjustified. (Interjections) If this Government has to request hon members of this House to accept the position as it is, this is at least a contributory factor to the financial straightjacket which we have got to wear. In the circumstances one would have thought that this Government would have exercised considerable care and considerable curbs on expenditure which is not going to be income-producing. Money spent on celebrations for independence, money spent in putting up palatial buildings could have been diverted into incomeprooducin gprojects. The whole speech from the hon the Minister of Finance is lacking in what one would regard as projects for the future. Nothing in the finances reflects either long-term planning or shortterm planning. Our finances should in effect translate into realities what our thinking is for the future prosinto realities what our thinking is for the future prosperity of a country. If we look at the budget speech there is very little comfort on this score. We must face the fact that the abundant rains which have fallen in the Transkei are going to let us in for a period of famine, and here we find that there is nothing reflected in the budget speech which indicates planning with a view to meeting such a situation in the Transkei. The rains have destroyed the crops; the rains have stopped farmers from ploughing their lands. The rains are still falling now GOVT MEMBER : What is wrong with that? MR GUZANA: .... and none of us is going to eat eleven-storey buildings. Money should be reserved to meet the eventuality of famine which is facing us squarely at this moment. It is being suggested by the hon the Minister of Finance that what is being done is intended, among other objectives, to keep the Communists out. At this moment one would commend the Republican Government for having been physically involved in that effort up to now, but not all the ammunition and arms can keep an ideology out of a country. It is my considered view that any government with a responsibility to its people, and bent on keeping out these communistic ideologies, must look to the welfare of the inhabitants of the country. Communist ideology evploits a situation where there is hunger, where there is dissension, where there is disgruntlement, and anybody who is suffering under these disabilities has nothing to lose by welcoming Comunist doctrines. mlit is my view that the best weapon to keep the Communist out is to fill the stomach of the people in the country .... M/FINANCE: How do you feed the stomachs of
the people when there is no work for them? MR GUZANA: .... that the people should be given a stake in the community in which they live; that the people should be trained in order to be productive economically; that salaries and wages should be increased; that job opportunities should become available M/FINANCE: How? In what way? You are blaming the bringing of high buildings to the Transkei. that projects which are incomeMR GUZANA: producing should be introduced by the Government. (Interjections) M/ÉDUCATION: Buildings are creating job opportunities for people. MR GUZANA: But a building is a non-incomeproducing investment. M/FINANCE: It creates job opportunities. MR GUZANA: But productive projects keep the people in a job all the time. To what extent do you keep the people contented if you have them employed on a building structure for six months and after six months they are thrown out into the street? M/FINANCE: But you are opposed to the continuation of building. MR GUZANA: An agricultural project keeps the people on the pob all the time for their lifetime. I am therefore bound to criticize any short-term project which seeks to provide employment for a short time and not permanency of employment. MR H. D. MLONYENI : What is the alternative? MR GUZANA: The hon member for Kentani is asking me what the alternative is. The only alternative to a foolish enterprise is a sensible enterprise. (Laughter) M/FINANCE: You are insulting now. That is an insult. Don't insult the hon member. He is putting a sensible question to you. MR GUZANA: It is not sensible. It is my submission that this Government's exercise is in the wrong direction. (Interjections) M/FINANCE: You are lowering the standard of debate. MR C. DIKO: What is your sensible alternative? MR GUZANA: Certainly the sensible alternative is not to ask for R500 000 million from the Republic. GOVT MEMBERS: What is your? M/FINANCE: Put forward your own suggestion as to what should be done. You are a critic and nothing else. MR GUZANA: Time and again we have told this Government to exploit the natural resources of this country. M/FINANCE : Which Government? You don't acknowledge this Government. Your Government is in Pretoria. MR GUZANA: We have emphasized the agricultural and pastoral potential of the Transkei time and again, but even when they try .... .. M/EDUCATIONAL: Why say "we"? Who is this "we"? MR GUZANA: even when they try to exploit it they construct large irrigation schemes which have come to naught in the sense that they have brought no financial benefit to the country. We have insisted upon the improvement of stock in the Transkei and all the Department of Agriculture is prepared to do is to give a miserable subsidy of R55 in the purchase of pedigree stock. (Interjections) This Government has set its face against land ownership by the peasant population because it wants to pamper its paramount chiefs and chiefs. It is quite obvious that the present system of land tenure will militate for all time against agricultural and pastoral revolution in the Transkei. I therefore hold that this Government is not using the money available in order to make investments that are going to pass on benefits to the people. M/FINANCE: Which money? This Government's money? MR GUZANA: To indicate to what extent this Government is negligent in exploiting the resources of the Transkei I want to refer to these Estimates. M/FINANCE : That's better. Don't make wild statements. MR GUZANA: On page 1 of the Estimates you see that Agriculture and Forestry is getting the least increase of all. M/FINANCE : But it is the fourth biggest Vote. 228.
encompass provisions which will make it possible to take advantage of those financial facilities. I would suggest that this Government should commit itself more positively to saving measures and that in as much as this Government asks the people to curb inflation by cutting down expenditure it in turn should cut down on expenditure, particularly with respect to the purchase of cars and the use of government cars. I would move that this Government should commit itself to an intensive agricultural structure over a period of five years. This, amongest other things, is a priority which will yield for the Transkei products for export. As someone put it, a country which produces food is in the pound seats and is assured of a market everywhere. I would ask the hon the Minister of Finance to tell us and spell out clearly the functions of the Transkei Development Corporation in relation to our agricultural and pastoral evolution , for I believe .... M/FINANCE : The Minister of Agriculture will reply to that. MR GUZANA: Yes, for I feel that that corporation has the finance and has the ability to revolutionize our agricultural productivity. I feel this Government should follow in the footsteps of the Honourable the Prime Minister of South Africa , who went to Israel, and tread over those footprints to get the know-how and the wisdom to use the land. I want to assure this Government that we shall make the best out of a bad financial job. M/FINANCE : That is sarcastic. MR GUZANA: Even if we have to starve it will be in the name of the Transkei, but our money, our fiscal system must reflect our planning for the future prosperity of the country. Thank you, Mr Chairman. M/EDUCATION: Mr Chairman and hon members, I want to assure this House that the budget having been presented to this House by the hon the Minister of Finance has been a very good budge, especially in an era which has been riddled by the inflationary tendency. Inflation, hon members of the House, has become a worldwide phenomenon. It has become a tendency which is baffling not only the Government of the Republic - let alone the Transkei - but all the Governments even of the Western World. I think, Mr Chairman, it is noteworthy to mention the fact that our Government at the moment is negoiating (whether it is a soft loan or not, I am not worried about the distributive adjective) but it is noteworthy that this Government is now negotiating a loan. I am mindful of the fact that the hon the leader of the New Democratic Party says the negotiation of this loan does not indicate the creditworthiness of the Government of the Transkei but that of the Republic, but I shall remind him that even all the prosperous Governments in the world will negotiate a loan at one time or another in order to carry out their big projects. I now the Government of the Republic itself has at one time or another negotiated a loan for its big projects, but, Mr Chairman, I would like to be objective in my treatment of this subject. I am happy that the hon the leader of the New Democratic Party has had to mention this important fact. In fact, I think he has been constructive in his approach to this aspect of the matter. All the Governments of the Western World are being financed by the International Monetary Fund and also the World Bank. That is why some of us become impatient when critics ask us: Why proceed with the independence of the Transkei? Where are you going to get the money from? The Government of the Transkei will borrow money, and therefore it cannot be said that the Transkei has no right to move towards independence. With regard to the development of the agricultural economy, nobody can dispute the fact that this should be regarded as a top priority as far as the Government of the Transkei is concerned. Fortunately, Mr Chairman, I am happy to tell this House that already the Government of the Transkei is thinking along the same lines when, in the not distant future, we are sending our young chaps to countries of the world with the highest reputation in agricultural economy. GOVT MEMBERS : Hear, hear. M/EDUCATION : But I am happy about the remarak made by the hon the leader of the New Democratic Party when he says, among other things , the ruling party is registering jubilation on its faces because of the forthcoming independence of the Transkei . I
MR GUZANA: It is getting an increase of only R878 000. This is in relation to an asset which the people of the Transkei already have. They are possessed of land, they have stock .... M/FINANCE : What about old-age pensions? Are you opposed to old-age pensions? and if there is going to be a MR GUZANA : revolution in agricultural and pastoral farming, bigger sums of money should be made available to the Department of Agriculture and Forestry, and this is going to involve everybody who has a piece of land; everybody who has a beast; everybody no matter what his situation is. In stimulating agricultural and pastoral farming you are taking the people with you, because you start from what they have and improve what they have so that we have increased production in agriculture, increased production in pastoral farming. I accuse this Government, therefore, of gross neglect in ignoring the natural assets of the Transkei; that in the finances which it handles this Government fails to reflect a concern for those assets and development of those assts. Because we are faced with the very severe financial straits that have limited the generosity of the Republican Government towards this Government, we are now faced with a deficit of R14 757 000 , and this Government has advised this House that a soft loan guaranteed by the Republic is going to be made available to the Transkei. Let me state quite clearly that this is not an indication of the creditworthiness of the Transkei, but rather the crediworthiness of the Republic. MR H. D. MLONYENI : But the money comes from the Government. MR GUZANA: The hon member for Kentani is enjoying the privilege of sitting in his chair and throwing in irresponsible remarks whilst I am speaking. MR MLONYENI : Irresponsible as far as you are concerned. MR GUZANA: At no time have I heard him participate in the debate on the budget speech ever since he joined this House. Now, I challenge him to get on his feet at some later time whilst we are debating the budget speech and let us hear his views. The most likely thing is that he is going to be as silent as a mouse when the opportunity is given to him. It is really most annoying to find that hon members such as the hon member for Kentani have never contributed to the deliberations of this House. (Interjections) Were he not a Chief Whip of the TNIP would suggest to the Government that he be moved to the back benches. (Laughter) GOVT MEMBERS: You are wasting your time. MR GUZANA: If anything, he is an embarrassment to this House. MR C. DIKO : Come to the motion. You are wasting time. MR GUZANA: The electorate for Kentani will certainly note this. Whilst we are going to have this soft loan, may I suggest to this Government that they should look further afield. MR H. D. MLONYENI : (Inaudible interjection ending with "gaat”.) MR GUZANA: Mr Chairman, I will ask the hon member to withdraw that word or leave the House. MR MLONYENI : I withdraw the word "Tongaat" because I was thinking of Natal where they grow sugar. MR GUZANA: Mr Chairman, we have ears to hear and the hon member did not speak of Tongaat. He threw into this House the word "gaat" and that is the word he has to withdraw. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Will the hon member unconditionally withdraw the word "gaat". MR MLONYENI : Mr Chairman, I withdraw the word, but what I said was .... CHAIRMAN: Don't qualify it then. (Laughter) Order, please. MR GUZANA: It has been my pleasure and I think the pleasure of the hon the Chief Minister to be associated with a discussion with a member of the International Monetary Fund, and these discussions have revealed the fact that the Transkei could well be a member of the International Monetary Fund and the International Bank for reconstruction and development. It would be most comforting and encouraging to hear the hon the Minister of Finance speak to this possibility and I hope that the General Loans Act is going to 229.
would like to warm him that Transkei has come to a point of no return so far as this matter is concerned. The decision of Transkei on 26 October 1976 to become a sovereign state is irrevocable and the Government will not be daunted by any pessimists or chardatans or doubting Thomases. We must have independence of the Transkei - and with its ramifications. I notice that the hon the leader of the New Democratic Party is unhappy about the building of the ministerial complex and the rest of it on the grounds that a lot of money is being spent there, which money should be used for productive purposes. Those of us who know that almost for the last eleven or twelve years he has been championing for the cause of Transkei becoming a province of the Republic of South Africa can understand why he is unhappy about the prospect of Transkei becoming independent. MR K. M. GUZANA : How does that relate to expenditure? M/EDUCATION : As a matter of fact, he should be very happy that the Government of Transkei is embarking upon a building programme for the purpose of creating job opportunities for our people. We want to be independent so that we build schools, and there are no schools at the moment. We want to be independent so that we can build government houses and build bridges and build everything in this country. MR GUZANA : Where are the schools now? M/EDUCATION : So, Mr Chairman, I rather think the hon the Minister of Finance should be congratulated by this House. A Government which has been able to produce a budget of this kind at a time when we are so busy with our celebrations here again I notice that the hon the leader of the New Democratic Party (I make no mistake I must only say "the leader of the New Democratic Party") is not happy about the preparations for our celebrations. Those of us who have been following what has been happening in Central Africa, we know that all those states on becoming independent have had to have their celebrations, so there is nothing amiss when the Government of Transkei spends money on preparations for such celebrations. Another important thing I would like to say to this House is that we know in public finance a Government must budget for the deficit. There are various factors which may be attributable to the fact that a Government, instead of budgeting for a surplus, will budget for a defici. In other words, I would appeal o the hon members of the House that they must not get excited when the hon the Minister of Finance has made a declaration in this House that he had had to budget for a deficit. As a matter of fact, it is a policy of modern Governments to budget for deficit, especially if in doing so the money is somewhere being used for productive purposes.. So the Government of Transkei has had to budget for a deficit because the money is being used for building the country, for building, for instance, such projects as airports, government houses, hotels and the rest. There is always a guarantee that it will be easy to have even a loan. That loan will be repaid by the Government when the projects undertaken yield, and yield dividends, so that the Government is in a position to repay the lona. It is not even a frightening thing that a modern Government will even apply a fiscal policy in order to have the repayment of the debt. If we look at this paper we will notice that the hon the Minister of Finance, in my opinion, has done something which will be appreciated by the entire country. If we look at page 3, to me it has been a wonderful thing that the hon the Minister of Finance was able to increase the social benefits , in spite of the fact that this Government is so busy spending money on public projects and the rest. Poor people of the Transkei will benefit greatly from the increased social benefits payable as from October 1975. A 12% increase is significant. So I think this Government can be defended, because it has done a good job. If you were to know .. MR GUZANA : On a point of correction, Mr Chairman, the percentages to which the hon member refers on page 4, when added up come to 100 % and therefore it is a misnomer to suggest there has been an increase of 12%. M/EDUCATION: Mr Chairman, it is admirable to think that this Govrnment has not been able to increase taxes for the people of the Transkei. Those of you who
have been listening to the budget of the Republic of South Africa will have noted that Horwood has had to levy taxes on people in order to help the Government in carrying out its projects. In other words, we should be thankful that we have got a Government which takes into consideration the interests and the welfare of the people of this country. We should be excited over the fact that the Transkei on 26 October 1976 is getting its freedom and we know well when we are independent we will produce a far better budget than this in the year 1977. We know for a fact that once we are over the inflationary tendencies which are destroying our economy we will have a better economic position in the Transkei. t is sound finance to budget for the deficit. MR N. JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I rise to contribute to this discussion on the budget speech. understand there are many things said about borrowing money. This year the heavy rains have contributed much to our difficulties, so much so that our crops are not satisfactory. We have to make preparations so that when we become independent we shall not be in such difficulties. We shall go to independence with hungry stomachs. (Interjections) As the hon the Minister of Finance mentioned, we will borrow money but we must see to it that we shall be able to repay that loan. When you borrow money special arrangements should be made so as to guarantee the repayment of the loan, it does not matter what the period. A country will lend us money but they will want to be sure what arrangements are being made for the repayment of that money. The hon Minister has hinted that there will be boys who will be sent abroad so that they can study modern agricultural methods. I do not say we should not take steps before those boys complete their education overseas. We have to depend on our sons in order to carry on our farming activities, and our sons are always with us in this country. Determination is the key. The trouble is that our children are not keen on agricultural activities. (Interjections) They are equipped with knowledge but they are not prepared to apply that knowledge. Mention has been made of the skyscrapers which are being erected. We have no quarrels with such schemes because those are signs of development. MR C. DIKO : Your leader has. MR JAFTA: He has never said so. He says these projects should not be a priority among the objectives. We know that an airport will be one requirement when we become independent. This independence of the Transkei is a showcase and we are not just going to recite that word "independence". What we want is development; what we want is progress. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR JAFTA: This budget speech does not run on ordinary lines. It is clear that the hon Minister has independence in view but what w ehave in view ourselves is that the country should develop and progress. Let us use our boys as they are to develop agriculture and not wait for those who will be sent overseas for them to develop the country. Agriculture is the backbone of the nation. Without agricultural progress we shall not develop . MR K. G. NOTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, unfortunately I was not inside when the hon the Leader of the Opposition started to speak. However, I heard some of his remarks. He spoke about the creditworthiness of the Republic which has enabled the Transkei to secure the soft loan. What is important in this point is that though the Reublic is a surety, the person who will repay the loan is the Transkeian Government. When the Transkeian Government has refunded the loan in full that will be a reference. That will be quoted by the Transkeian Government when it wants a loan from another source. It is easy. You can take an example in our daily routine of life. If you open up an account with a firm you take with you somebody who is known by that firm. He goes away and you pay the account, but when you have finished paying that account and you go back to the firm they will not require you to bring the other person. Or you go to another firm who will ask you for a trade reference. You quote the first firm . That is a reference which really will be the reference now in this case for the Transkeian Government. They talked about feeding the people first. I think the
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Transkeian Government is busy with that. Its TDC --that is, the Transkeian Development Corporation - is putting up buildings for factories and inviting white indusrialists to provide employment for our people. You look, for instance, in Butterworth and Umtata people are being employed there. They are being given wages. You see, the Transkian Government is not marking time but you cannot expect all these things to be done in one day. I am happy because I have been saved the trouble of replying to this one comment that is, the building of an administrative complex here in Umtata because the hon member for Qumbu has said that he and his leader have no quarrel with that. MR K. M. GUZANA: We quarrel with the priorities. MR NOTA: It will be very foolish for them to quarrel with the creation of assets for the country. Coming closer to the budget itself, the hon the Minister of Finance said that he actually requested the Republican Government to give him R120 million in terms of paragraphs (c) and (d) of subsection 52(1 ) of the Transkeian Constitution Act, 1963, but he was given R93 million -- a shortfall of R27 million. The reason advanced was that the Republican Government is in financial difficulty this year (1976/77) because of high defence costs, decline in the gold price, increase in fuel prices and many other reasons. The Transkeian Government was therefore forced to balance its budget for a deficit of R14 million. This was done in order to maintain essential services, payment of salaries of government employees, maintaining the pensions which were increased last year. The Estimates for last year for old age, disability, blind persons' pensions was R15 693 100, and there was an increase on 1 October 1975. As a result this year's Estimates have increased to R20 265 000. You see, the Government is bound to maintain this, is bound to budget for a deficit I know some of us have whispered a word already to the country outside that the teachers will not be paid a bonus. I heard that in my area. You see , this sort of gossip was trying to discredit the Government, Fortunately, the Government has maintained that and the teachers have been paid their bonus. I know, Mr Chairman, that some of our people are asking themselves why opt for independence when the Government has had to budget for a deficit. You see, the people of the Transkei want independence. We were supplied with figures yesterday by the hon the Chief Minister. The results of various elections and the latest results of various elections and the latest results of Glen Grey and Herschel reflect that the people of the Transkei want independence. The Government has no alternative except to go ahead with independence. Let me give you a simile of something which happened in other areas. When Lesotho got its independence in 1976 that year's budget in Lesotho had a deficit of R11,2 million, so in this deficit of R14 million, as far as we are concerned there is nothing new. It happens in some other countries. I have given a speciric example of Lesotho and a specific amount. That deficit was closed by Lesotho with a loan from the World Bank. The same thing is applying now to the Transkei. The Transkeian Government is busy with a bill which will enable it to raise a loan and receive a loan, and the Transkei will close this deficit by this amount. I know that some of us say that after independence the Transkei has no guarantee of getting money from the Republic. There is no guarantee, and the guarantee is not necessary because there is our money from the Republic. There is a normal thing which is a customs tgreement between the various countries. This customs agreement exists between the Republic and Lesotho, between the Republic and Botswana and between the Republic and Swaziland, and the Transkei will get into that customs union. A customs union stipulates, amongst other things, complete elimination of tariffs and trade barriers between countries, and other rules regulating import from non-members . There is an apportionment of customs revenue amongst the members in accordance with an agreed formula. Here is our money in this appoitionment of customs revenue, where your own indirect tax will be drawn from. The population of the people of the Transkei is bigger than the population of Lesotho, Botswana and Swaziland and therefore they will have the highest share in this customs union. Mr Chairman, I support the second reading of this bill.
MR P. N. NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support the statement made by the leader of the New Democratic Party. He stated something which is worthy of support. It is a fact that there is no money today. Big companies were invited to come to Umtata to construct these buildings and they finished this money building skyscrapers. We don't even know who is going to occupy these buildings. (Laughter) If you go out into the disrict you will find there are no longer any roads because the money allocated for the repair of the roads has been finished. Tourists using their good cars and wishing to visit places such as Hole-in-the-wall are unable to reach their destination because the roads have been damaged and they are not being attended to. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR NKOSIYANE: This is a result of the money not being found to correct this state of affairs. The people employed to repair these roads have been fired because there is no money. In the plantations there are certain buildings formerly occupied by white people, but there are no people in occupation at present and all the windowpanes of those buildings have been damaged. Because there is no money there is no-one to see to the upkeep of those buildings. Buildings occupied by the white people had low rentals and today no-one is in ocupation of those buildings. I hear one hon member saying people are being paid but today no-one is being paid and everything is very expensive. Last year we applied for all labourers to be paid R2 a day. Today people are being paid R1 a day because there is no money. Even when people are putting up factories here the managers do not pay good salaries because they take the example of this Government, which does not pay its servants properly. This Government forgets that these people who are employed by it have families and have to support such families. MR H. PAMLA: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, we are appealing to you to protect us. We cannot sit here and listen to an hon member discussing motions instead of the budget. We shall be grateful if the hon member will discuss the budget and not his wishful thinking. MR NKOSIYANE: I heard it first from Government members. They said they were building bridges. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN: Hon member, this House is dealing with the budget. This House is now dealing with the principles of the budget, so please be relevant. MR NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman, I have been speaking to this budget. The reason why this budget has been brought to the House is because it concerns money, and there is no money. When the budget has been brought to this House and estimates have been dealt with, then this money should be used accordingly. All the departments have been allocated some money. We know the money comes from the Department of Finance and when we talk about these matters we say it should be used in the proper way and not in putting up those high buildings. This money should be used so that we have enough to eat and when our stomachs have been attended to then we will see to the education of our children. The Transkeian Government is being given money by the Republican Government with the intention of feeding us, so that everyone who works should be paid good salaries in order to feed well. It could never be thought of that Pretoria should give money to this Government and that money not be used to feed the people. This money which we have been given by Pretoria will be used in order that we should enjoy certain celebrations. (Laughter) It is said we are going to enjoy ourselves and have celebrations, and yet we are hungry. Even if we drink Jabulani the children do not get enough to eat. MR H. PAMLA: Ninety per cent of your people voted for independence. MR NKOSIYANE : My people never voted for independence. You are misleading the people because everything written in that list was written without the people being present. CHAIRMAN: Hon member, you cannot make such a serious allegation in this House. For you to insinuate that the records presented to the House by the hon the Chief Minister are false is very serious. I order you to withdraw. 231.
MR NKOSIYANE: If I conveyed such a meaning, I withdraw that meaning. CHAIRMAN : I order you to withdraw, hon member. MR NKOSIYANE: I withdraw, Mr Chairman, I was still saying that as you don't know how to use money, this is not going to help anyway. Even the Government in Pretoria will be tired of you. If someone gives you money and you don't use the money as it was intended then the donor gets tired. The Government is well aware of people's difficulties, but notwithstanding that no attention is given to improving their posiion. No attention is given to improving their posiion. Noe one request we have made has received satisfaction. The only interest hese people have is to feast on meat. (Laughter) I came to this House to give a report that in my district pigs are devouring the mealies. (Laughter) CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Will the hon member please deal with the budget. We are dealing here with the principles of the budget. MR NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman, I am addressing myself to this budget. When everything has been put right, all I cay should be seen to. As we are discussing this budget we are talking about money. I have listed certain matters which require money and this money should be used for those purposes. We can do nothing if we do not use this money which we are dealing with in this budget. I will take my seat now, Mr Chairman. The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION
The debate on the second reading of the Appropriation Bill was resumed. MR M. P. LUDIDI: Mr Chairman and hon members, in contributing to this debate on the budget speech I will raise just a few points, because most of the vital points have been touched on by the foregoing speakers. We all know that the budget is the policy of the Government expressed in figures. The way the Government appropriates national funds and the manner it appropriates those funds has a direct bearing on the policy of the Government. The speech of the hon the Minister of Finance can be divided into various portions. The first portion focusses our attention on what has taken place in the Transkei recently. We are being asked to appreciate certain environmental factors which have hit the Government policy-wise. The opening paragraphs refer us to a crisis involving hardships and suffering which were caused by the continuing downpours. We think of the natural disasters for example, which have taken place in the Transkei in Tabankulu - of the floods that marooned the people of Nqamakwe, and although here we are not told exactly what the Government is going to do about it in terms of a budget there has been reference to it because the matter is of national interest. To me, this indicates very well that the Government has now reached a stage where we can say it qualifies for independence, where the Government is not only concerned with a policy which lead the Transkei to independence but also with certain things which affect the public here and there. Such a Government is a Government on which the people of the Transkei can rely. Next, Mr Chairman, there is the question of the realities of a world-wide economic recession. The hon the Minister of Education and the member for Mount Ayliff referred to this and discussed it widely, and I do not want to bother the hon members with unnecessary repetition, but it became clear from their debate how the economic world situation has affected the economic situation, in the Transkei. Though not yet independent, the Transkei exists in a community of world States and as we near independence the hon members are here roused to the fact that they have to anticipate good things as well as bad things. I quite apreciate the strengthening words of he hon the Chief Minister which are contained in his speech when he says: “In the final analysis man is judged by the way in which he reacts to the ordinary and extraordinary moments of his year. Often many people share an experience and by the manner in which they react the men are separated from the boys. " What more more words of encouragement and strength than these? Now, Mr Chairman, I turn to the factors that influenced this situation locally. There is a reasonable account of these factors which influenced the budgetary
increases and one way or another led to the deficit. They ar listed in the budget speech. There are three of them which are prominent and I am sure hon members will not quarrel with any of these. I wish to comment on the first and the second ones which seemed to be of interest to me: The districts of Glen Grey and Herschel which have been annexed to the Transkei and how the annexation affected the Estimates of Expenditure, because, Mr Chairman, we have to take account of the enormous work and the services which the Government has to render in these two districts. The second question seems to be quite controversial. This I noticed when the leader of the New DP and the hon member for Mqanduli made their contribution. Well, I need not repeat what the leader of the New DP said about these projects such as presidential palaces, ministerial complexes and other projects for independence. The hon the Leader of the Opposition mentioned the question of priorities. The Government here was criticized for injecting enormous sums of money to establish these projects before independence. Then he suggested that the Government should have done better if it put the question of agricultural productivity first. In that way, he said, the Government would create work opportunities which in the end would solve the question of starvation in the Transkei. Well, while it may be true, Mr Chairman, that agricultural improvement as well as industries are a priority in the Transkei , as far as I am concerned preparations for independence take precedence to those things, and I have numerous reasons for that, Mr Chairman. How do you judge that a certain project is a priority over another? Can we do justice to the question if we decide as individuals? I think in this case the opion of the people has got to be considered. Do the people of the Transkei accept independence preparations as a priority? Well, here I speak as a member for Matatiele and even so a member for Ludidi administrative area. The people who elected me really feel that preparations for independence should be given priority. This I got from them when I held a series of meetings with them, and I am sure the hon the Minister of Finance will get their support in this present allocation of Transkeian funds. I have, for example, as proof of what I say the figures of the people who opted for independence in my area the people who said the Government should go on. CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA: Go on with what? MR LUDIDI: You know I am speaking about independence celebrations as a priority. There my people enjoyed the second highest figures and when you analyse the whole report you will find that the majority of the people of the Transkei accept independence, are ready for independence, and this allocation is justifiable. (Interjections) Well, I am not speaking for the members of Tsolo from which the hon Chief Mabandla comes. Even so, the people of Tsolo according to this analysis accept independence. Another important aspect of the budget, Mr Chairman, is the one which relates to the relations between the Republic of South Africa and the Transkei . We must focus our attention on the position of the Republic as our perennial benefactor. I may say the Transkei is still the baby of the Republic of South Africa and this relationship is well defined in paragraphs (c) and (c) of subsection 52(1 ) of the Transkei Constitution Act of 1963. The Republic of South Africa is there obliged to come to the assistance of the Transkei and that is why the Transkeian Government approached the Republican Government when the question of a deficit had to be met. The Republic has had its own reasons to refuse further sums of money and up to this moment we have to accept its stand. We have to think about what they have done for us in the past, but since the hon the Minister of Finance has pointed out that these estimates will be revised after 26 October I hope the contribution of the Republican Government will be favourable. I do not want to go into details on this question, Mr Chairman.. This is the question of funds our moneys which we think are in the Republic. The hon the Minister of Finance has already dealt with this matter on a higher level and, as I have said, we hope hat things will be better after 26 October when the estimates will be revised. The Minister of Labour and of Mines when opening this session pointed out that the Republic of South Africa would always be on our side. That is why I say
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there is great hope for us until things have proved the contrary. With those words, Mr Chairman , I support the budget speech by the hon the Minister of Finance. Thank you, Sir. MR S. A. XOBOLOLO : Mr Chairman and hon members, I am not going to discuss the budget, but I will make certain comments on the Minister's speech because that is what is required today. What I wish to be explained is the sum of R14 million which is to be borrowed. (Interjections) I want the hon the Minister of Finance to give me an explanation as to where this money has been borrowed from and how it will be repaid, and also the interest, Mr Chairman. In regard to the money paid to us by the Republican Government I wish to say that we are very grateful for that, but the loans which we will get from outside South Africa are the result of those countries having enriched themselves from the products of our country. It will be a burden to the citizens of the Transkei to have these loans from outside South Africa, because we shall also have to pay interest on those loans. One hon member this side spoke about the establishment of industries whereby people would get employment. As a result it would seem that citizens of the Transkei will all become servants who will be paid wages and those people will then enrich themselves from our labours. To give an example, an employee is paid R22 a month and out of that he pays R7 towards rent. This leaves him R15 a month, which is insufficient for grociries. GOVT MEMBER: Is that in the budget? MR XOBOLOLO: That means that we in the Transkei have not yet received something which is going to be of assistance to us. We would be glad to get independence on 26 October, but what is more important is that we should be free in all respects. The hon member for Mount Ayliff mentioned that Lesotho had a loan of R11,2 million which they aksed for from the World Bank. What I really want is that the hon the Minister of Finance should tell us whether he will get this R14 million from outside South Africa or how this money is going to be repaid. MR C. DIKO: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support the budget speech by the hon the Minister of Finance. All he said yesterday and even on this piece of paper does indicate that in our Cabinet we have got men who are endeavouring one hundred per cent for the good of the Transkei. I am very, very disappointed in the attitude of the Republican Government, however, and I am going to read what disappoints me most from this budget speech: "Senator Horwood could however not see his way to providing more than R93 330 000. " Now, I am asking why, and everybody in this House must ask why. You see, we are not joking when we are talking in this Assembly. I hav once mentioned that the Republican Government is the founder and the creator of this separation and we have reminded and warned them that they must know that the whole financial position and respon sibility of making this independent territory grow rests on their shoulders. So how could they at the very outset, when we are on the threshold of independence, say they cannot se their way here? What does that mean? Now, I want the House to realise that when we accepted independence and when we accepted a Cabinet to prepare for this independence we were definitely assisting the Republican Government on its undertaking. Now, we have been asking for the money which belonged to the Transkei from indirect taxation and that money has not been given to us yet. (Laughter) You remember I said the money they owe us is R500 000 million. Now, I want to go further and say today which I did not say the other day, because I thought the budget would include that amount. (Laughter) For the last 350 years every African who has been regarded as a Kaffir and a Native has been underpaid. So what has happened to all their pay? (Laughter) This statement is therefore disgusting, disappointing and not worthy to come from the Government of the Republic. They owe us a lot of money. We are human beings and we want this to be a success, and at the moment the onus is on the Republican Government to make it a success. So I do not want anybody to go and talk nonsense here and say: How are we going to pay this R14 million? The Republican Government is going to pay. (Laughter) They will pay and this is not a time to play. When a Government sets out a
project it is that Government which must see to the ultimate success of that project, so I am asking the Republic to retract this unfortunate statement and to send money to the Transkeian Government. These gentlemen are honourable gentlemen and they want to make a success of this Transkei. You see, they are now giving a chance to the hon the Leader of the Opposition the New Democratic Party so that when this thing fails he is going to say the Transkeian people have failed and he wants that to happen because those are his masters. (Laughter) So I am calling on the Republican Government, not these gentlemen outside, that they must do all in their power to make this Transkei project a success ; and I have warned and will continue to warm them that if this fails - this project of independence of the Transkei I begin to see the wall cracking between the Republic and the Transkei. (Laughter) You see, relationships must be maintained and the onus is on the Republican Government to keep it, so that the Government of Transkei has been very wise to accept the idea of a loan. I want to speak very steadily today because I want you to understand that they have been very wise to accept the idea of a loan, rather than cut down the expenditure they had intended. That was very clever and that is why we say they are men of high calibre and we in this House must continue to support them. I say they must get this loan at all costs and the Republican Government is going to pay. (Laughter) They must not worry because the Republican Government is going to pay that loan back. You see, some people who saw themselves by chance in this House do not realise that in politics you have got to have vision and understanding. Now, with all due respect to Opposition members I did not like the remark by the hon the Leader of the Opposition, because he argues that the credibility of even getting that loan was because the Republican Government was trusted and that is why we got this loan. Please realise, hon members of the House, it is obvious that the work of getting the loan is not the Transkeian Government it is the work of the Republican Government, so if they want security the Republican Government must provide security and they must pay. Now, there is another disappointing remark made on the hon the Chief Minister. You see, I think he is well reported by the Daily Dispatch which sometimes does not do justice.. Now, on the first page it is reported : "Perhaps the next generation can sort the matter out amicably mith South Africa", he said. Now, I want to tell this House the land question is very important and personally I am not going to wait for the next generation. (Laughter) We are going to do it now. We are the generation which is owed the land. The land must continue to be ours and no gentleman who has advocated independence for the Transkei must hold that land does not belong to the Transkei. Our land must be released immediately and before independence. It is no joke that Kokstad, that Mount Currie has been excised from the Transkei. It is the land of Faku, and Adam Kok was a chief under Faku. He had no right whatsoever to give that land to the white people just for a case of brandy. (Laughter) So I think the Government must play the gentleman's game. We are not underdogs by any means, we are human beings of the Transkei and we were never colonized by those people. We on our own asked the British Government to give protection to us. It was voluntary annexation by the chiefs for the purposes of protection. We were never conquered nor colonized by the Whites, so I want to emphasize that if they want this independence to be a success the Republican Government must give us our land complete. I don't want to compromise about that. (Laughter) I want the Transkei land completely handed over to the Transkei . You see, they have about 87% of the land and because they have conquered the Matabele of Mzilikazi they want to classify us as a conquered people. We were never conquered. If they are not careful this is going to open another conflict between themselves and ourselves. (Laughter) You see, we can no longer accept, we are no longer fools, and they must realise that the very fact that people see we can get loans, when we get loans without their assistance they must be very careful. (Laughter ) We are under no circumstances accepting a status that is less than the status of the Republic. We want equality in status, equality in all human rights. So I want to suggest (and 233.
say you are going to continue borrowing money from the Republican Government as well as from abroad, knowing well that you are in debt as far as the XDC is concerned, to whom you owe a lot of money. The hon Mr Nota revealed to us that there are certain moneys which were paid through indirect taxation but all these amounts have been swallowed up by the XDC which I call the Xhosa Destruction Conspiracy. (Laughter) Are you suggesting we are all under the Republican Government and the Bantu Trust? So now in this sham Government of yours, do you say the only money you now have you have to repay to the Republican Government? There is money which belongs to the tribal authorities, which is R320 000 and R218 000 was given to othe University of Port Elizabeth. GOVT MEMBERS: What page is that? Where do you see that? CHIEF MABANDLA: I am not going to tell the members how to read what has been placed before us. I want to state that these are difficult conditions which have been placed before us. The aim of the Republican Government is to keep the black man in his place. When the white people came to this country the one thing they wanted was to see to it that any advancement made by the black people was stopped. This situation has been brought about by the white people so that the Blacks should not make any advancement, so much so that influx control regulations were also introduced in order that the people should always have to get loans. We say we have not been given sufficient money, but money has been allocated for celebrations and also to provide for the hon Ministers to hold feasts instead of using that money for the people's salaries. We will continue saying that a black man is a human being, just as any other person, and I can assure you it is Africa for the Africans. If you change that policy it is because you are getting lost. CHAIRMAN: Hon member, we are dealing with the Transkei budget. CHIEF MABANDLA: Mr Chairman, I thank you for reminding me. The pain we are suffering and the budren under which we are labouring is caused by the country for which we fought - South Africa. What raises this complaint is the portion in the speech which states the Government will obtain a soft loan. I want to know where this loan is to come from. Most of the hon members in the House are chiefs, and these chiefs have come into this House automatically because they are chiefs. They have not been elected by the people. I say the time has come when people should come here by election and not because of their status. CHAIRMAN : Hon member, please discuss the budget. CHIEF MABANDLA : Thank you, Mr Chairman. This country desires that the money, when it is received, should be distributed amongst the people. The hon the Chief Minister has his subjects around him and they say they are going to see the Republican Parliament, but when they come from there they keep quiet and do not tell us what they have been discussing with the white Government. What we require them to tell us is whether the Cape Town Parliament has refused to grant us this money when they asked for it; Don't tell us that when you have got this large amount from the Republic you will use some of it for celebrations, forgetting that the people are starving and have nothing to eat. (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : The hon member is responsible for the uproar taking place in this House. What you are trying to show, I don't know. Please be pertinent and deal with the Transkei budget. CHIEF MABANDLA : Thank you, Mr Chairman. We fear they will tell us that this money which has been asked for and which will be obtained from some unknown source also comes from the Republic Government. We should be told if this money comes from overseas and exactly where it comes from. We should not be given something vague, as indicated in the budget speech. This is what I want to know. Those people who are holding high positions are going to eat the money which was obtained from the sweat of the black people. ( Interjections ) CHAIRMAN : Hon member, if you have nothing to say, please do not repeat monotonously what has been said already in this House. If you have nothing new to say, please sit down.
I know some hon members of the House are not going to accept this difficulty, but we are going to solve it) that if the Republican Government is finding itself financially in difficulty they must come to terms with us. You see, the Prime Minister of the Republic is getting R14 000, so what must happen if at all there is inflation is that he must be reduced to R25 000 and the salary of the Chief Minister of the Transkei raised to R25 000. By that we will solve the difficulty of inflation, and it must be extended to the civil servants. They have promised. (Laughter) Why will a man not keep his promise? He asked for six months - I repeat, six months to close the wage gap and I expect by 1 July that wage gap will have been closed. CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA : This year? MR DIKO: Yes, this year. Now, he is closing a gap which is not closed. That is what I want you to understand, and the Republic to understand. This wage gap, Mr Chairman, is not closed and the gap is being opened between the Blacks and Whites of South Africa, so closing the wage gap is automatically closing the gap in relationships between Whites and Blacks, and if the Republican Government is not going to be careful, we in this House -— every member of this Assembly ·-we don't want a gap in the relationships between the white and black man in South Africa, but if you continue with the injustice of underpaying the underdog and treating him as a slave, then you are automatically increasing the gap. I am giving that warning, Mr Chairman, and I don't want this Government to be lethargic about this matter. We must continue to knock at the door of the Republic, it does not matter how adamant they are. They must realise they have set us on a par, in the words of Verwoerd. We cannot turn back from independence and we shall go overseas and everywhere to make this a success, and when it is a success whosoever was our friend shall be our enemy. I want it clear to this House and to the country as a whole. I am not happy about this budget and with the Republic. Our man here has done his best work, and if that does not go home I will not be here for independence. (Laughter) CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA: Mr Chairman and hon members , I am glad to speak after these hon members have delivered their speeches. I was very pleased to hear the address by the hon member for Tabankulu, who spoke as he felt and revealed the threats which have been made by those people who seem to be terrorists. Firstly, in connection with the budget speech it is quite clear and evident that it is the hon the Chief Minister who has made all these arrangements in order that these matters should be brought into this House. There is one paragraph which I do not clearly understand in this budget speech, when he says there is an adequate soft loan "guaranteed by the Republic," but those words were crossed out and then he said this would be available from abroad. I am now confused and I do not know what this means, because all along we have been getting money from the Republican Government. Now it confuses us when we are being informed about money we will get from abroad. MR C. DIKO : Sit down. You are just confusing things. CHIEF MABANDLA: We are trying to show some respect to the hon member for Tabankulu, Mr Diko, who has been moving to and from in all these political parties. (Laughter) Mr Chairman, you can never trust a person who acts like a bat and cannot stick to one party. Mr Chairman, I will refer to the money which has always been supplied to us by the Republican Government. Now the hon Minister says this soft loan will be available from abroad and I do not know whether it is another way of running away from responsibility in regard to South Africa. We are children of South Africa unto death. There is no date of arrival for the black people in this country. It is only Whites who arrived on a certain date. That is why we are trying to investigate this matter of money, because since the arrival of the white people the black people have always been taxed. We want to know about this money. As this money has been asked for by the hon the Chief Minister from the Republican Government, you do know well that this money is the money which belongs to your children, your grandchildren, to your grandparents and great-grandparents. You now
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support of Communism are sorry today. They are beginning to think again. There was another dangerous instance here when inflammable language was used. I am sorry this came from the hon the Leader of the Opposition. He merely created a state of rumpus in this House. He merely dragged the dignity of this House to the lowest level. I think he is responsible for creating an instance whereby there is so much noise. In this House we have a serious question to ask ourselves : Does the cry for the liberation of Africa mean that the African shall give himself to say what he likes, to do what he likes? Is it not a cry to duty, to be very constructive, to fight for the real liberation of our people, to see to their needs, to build up such States as can be responsible and can be respected by the outside world? Some reference was made to agriculture and again no constructive criticism was offered. The increase of R878 000 was overlooked. There is a purpose in that increase. Means will be made to meet demands that will be forthcoming from the Department of Agriculture. There is this matter of balancing the budget to the tune of R14 million. We owe it as a duty to say "Thank you" to our hon Ministers for the initiative they have taken to see that this budget is balanced. In the world of democracy we live in a world of profit and loss. We have seen budgets being balanced; we have noted how these balances were made. There were periods of surpluses and there were also periods of deficits. I still would like to see a country that never met the situation that the Transkeian Government is faced with. Our hon Minister of Finance on his own initiative has taken the trouble to tap those resources that can come to our assistance. We are still living in a time when we are subject to the guardianship of the finances of the Republic of South Africa. Our creditability has been so good that the Republican Government has come out as a guarantor. I have no doubt that this amount of money will be available, and some more and some more as the need arises in time to come, the Transkei because the Transkei that we are now - is so good that is being villified by the Opposition that it can be trusted by the outside world. The time is comng when the status of the Transkei shall be so raised as to make it fit to appeal to the International Bank. There again our creditability wil stand us in times of want. We will be able once more to balance our budget. In matters of finance, when we finance the running of a State there are many ways of raising funds. The most important will be the following : After 26 October the Republic of Transkei will be able to go to the people of Transkei for money to run the State by way of loans. We will not only concern ourselves with the taxes. We will sell to the people of Transkei loans in government stock. The next step, like all Governments all over the world, will be to go to the Banks and moneylending institutions to finance our State, and there will be nothing wrong in that. It is the practice of the democratic world to seek assistance from the fellowship of other countries, just as even Communist countries go to the democratic countries for grain to feed their millons.. There is nothing to fear in the coming independence of the Transkei. GOVT MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR BHURALI : We have every reason to be jublilant about it. We have fought for it and the time has come when we must receive it. GOVT MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR BHURALI: In fine, Mr Chairman, I thank you for having been given the privilege to partake in this debate. I say let us march forward and let us fight for our independence and forgive the noise from the other side. (Laughter) MR H. H. ZIBI : Mr Chairman and hon members, how delighted, how pleased and how gratified I am this afternoon to speak after the hon member from Herschel who, through my own personal efforts is today here. (Laughter) I am happy, too , that he has not made an oaf of himself. Now, let us look at the question of the budget speech objectively. With ordinary knowledge of elementary economics any clear-thinking person will realise and appreciate the positon we are today placed in. It is true that, due to inflation, money has lost its utility value, and this is a challenge to every clearthinking Transkeian how to get the Transkei out of the financial impasse in whch it is at present. A deficit of
CHIEF MABANDLA: Mr Chairman, when I speak all the people feel I am saying something. I am speaking of the money which even our grandfathers sweated for and which you pourselves sweated for, and when we are given such a little money from the white parlia? ment we say: Thank you. It is our right to tell the hon the Chief Minister that we should come together and tell him that this money belongs to us. Must I say "Thank you" even when something is wrong? All this money is included in this budget and the hon the Minister of Finance has to make allocations. Even the Prime Minister of the Republic turns over his budget speech to his people. CHAIRMAN: Hon member, I rule that you should sit down. MR S. P. BHURALI: Mr Chairman and hon members, firstly we greet you people because we are new to this House. We have already joined and are only now finding our feet. There is something which is going to surprise us in this our parliament when we, being members of parliament, only devote our time to criticism instead of trying to see that we build ourselves up. I am pleased when there is an Opposition party, because it is there to make constructive criticism. It is of great importance that we should look at two questions when we have received a monetary grant, and that is whether we are satisfied with the amount so allotted and also to find out whether we can still ask for more. (Interjections) MR H. D. MLONYENI: This is a maiden speech. Don't heckle. MR BHURALI : Mr Chairman, I am coming to the question of asking for more. Presently I will appeal to this House to be satisfied, because on observation of the Estimates you will find that each department has an increase in the Estimates. In any parliament you will find no department with sufficient money. Also, in our independence we will never have sufficient funds. Nevertheless we will have money for the administration of matters affecting the people. That is the necessity affecting all parliaments in the world - to be able to meet their difficulties. Certain points have been raised by the Opposition. I have got reason to regard them as side issues, but because of the implications they warrant a reply. An attack was made on the buildings that have been put up by our Government. We should bear in mind that a responsible Government will see first to the proper investment of the moneys of the State. These buildings are not prestigious - they are a sure investment on which the funds of this State can be raised tomorrow. GOVT MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR BHURALI: The second point raised was concerning projects. The Opposition failed to acquaint itself with the planned economic development of the Transkei. If they had looked into these plans they would have found there are such things as short-term and longterm projects. Unfortunately, this side of the House is not there to school people who are not interested in the welfare of their State. GOVT MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR BHURALI : One other dangerous implication was to the effect that the responsibility of fighting Communism is the responsibility only of the Republican Government. The whole democratic world, wherever a democracy is, is faced with the fight against Communism. GOVT MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR BHURALI : Yesterday we were dealing with the preamble to our Constitution when we accepted the sovereignty of God over all our affairs, and we know that Communism is a direct hazard, a direct onhlaught on that concept. How dare the Opposition members of this honourable House feel they can be lax about this duty? How dare our hon members on the other side regard the foormation of our army as a prestigious issue, as something which has no necessity in the defence of this new State? How dare they feel that moneys employed in this respect are moneys wasted? It is the duty of every democratic country to stand solidly with the other countries of the world in this struggle against Communism. Communism is our enemy. It is equally their enemy. I doubt if they ever think that if this country is ever overrun by Communists they will have the privilege of howling at the tops of their voices. Many countris in Africa which opted for the 235.
stand up to associate myself fully with the budget speech given by the hon the Chief Minister, and that would have been enough. However, for the sake of closing this debate (Laughter) I will go a little further. Once upon a time a man said : "Why all this waste? Couldn't we sell this ointment and the proceeds be given to the poor?" He was not really serious about the poor, he was not concerned about the poor, but the reply was enough that he never said anything more beyond that, and I hope that they will not say anything beyond what I am saying now. (Laughter) In the budget speech of our hon Chief Minister is reflected an amount which is earmarked for the celebrations of the independent Transkei, and it looks as if the Opposition has just found something to cling to for the rest of their speeches on this particular aspect of the budget. We only rjoice once , that is true, and the Transkei will only become independent once. (Laughter) All these problems which have been mentioned by the Opposition members have been there, and they will be there even after independence, but we only hope that after independence, but we only hope that after independence they will join hands with us to build a new Transkei. One other aspect they seem to be very fond of referring to is this talking of money being agro-pastoral revolution wasted on prestige structures. I really wonder if , in wasted on prestige structures. I really wonder if, in their Transkei as they have it in their minds, they would administer that agro-pastoral revolution under the shadow of trees in the streets? Administration of any country must have offices from which instructions, rules and regulations will come, so it is natural therefore that the Transkeian Government should embark on a very large scale on these schemes and projects. We have been told by the hon the Chief Minister that in our new Transkei we will have 12 ministries and about 17 departments. Isn't that expansion as required by the hon members across the floor? Aren't we going to man those departments with up-and-coming young Transkeians who are in dire need of jobs? So we can never really overemphasize the need for all these structures which have perhaps contributed to this deficit on which our hon Chief Minister has operated. As the hon Mr Bhurali said, you just cast an eye on the budget, on all the Votes, on the Estimates, and you will notice with jubilation that there is not a single decrease on any Vote. Isn't that growth? I think hon members of the Opposition agree with us that growth really is there for the Transkei , and it will be there. There is no doubt there is growth and it is apparent every day. Mr Chairman, I do not want to be long because if all went according to my wishes we could long ago have closed the debate on this matter. (Laughter) Before I resume my seat I wish to say: Seek ye therefore the independence of the Transkei and all the others shall be added unto it. (Laughter) GOVT MEMBERS: Hear, hear. The debate was adjourned . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 6 May 1976.
R14 million odd is to any clear-thinkng person alarming. I quite appreciate the fact that the whole country is bedevilled by inflation, but with the Transkei and South African as a whole? I sumit that partially the legislaton of the country is to blame. I refer, Sir, to the Job Reservation Act. The Job Reservation Act is the result of the policy we have for the last twelve or thirteen years supported - that of separate development, that of apartheid, that of separation. This occurs at a ime when the Transkei is on the threshold of embarking on independence, and we are all aware what those who oppose independence say will happen when the Transkei gets independence, as much as we know that those who are for it say what they say for their side of the subject matter. It has been submitted that political independence is the firs phase of any country seeking complete independence, and thereafter economic viability may follow. It will follow automatically if that particular country works hard enough, but the other side has equally argued that unless a country is economically viable it is not wise to embark on independence. As we are a baby of the Republican Government I feel the same way that the hon member for Tabankulu feels - that the Republican Government should not have allowed this state of affairs to obtain in the Transkei at this stage. If they had closed up the gap of R14 million without arguing, we should not today have been talking of any soft loans and inquiring from the hon the Minister of Finance where this soft loan comes from. If the Republican Government has been able to lend foreign countries millions of rands, what is R14 million? I am hoping, Sir, that a position will not arise subsequently that will make the then Prime Minister of Transkei move around cap in hand from even, for that matter, entering country to country communistic countries for financial assistance. Hon members here have spoken of priorities, and I want to say we are trying to drive home the point that, for example, you should have seen to the repair of your roads to a degree where machinery travelling from the factories around Butterworth and Lusikisiki is able to reach the community on good roads. One priority should have been putting up more technical schools so that in such schools our youth will train as engineers , technicians and, of course, other technical callings demanded in life especially for a State that is undergoing development. One swallow does not make a summer. I refer to the remarks by the hon member for Mount Ayliff who said the customs duties would come in handy to improve the financial position of the Transkei. I admit that in the circumstances the hon the Minister of Finance did the best he could . That is, out of the material he had at his disposal he tailored the best garment possible. GOVT MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR ZIBI: In closing, Mr Chairman, because I am satisfied hon members have adequately canvassed this budget speech, I must say that, honestly, the attitude of the Republican Government is to me a veritable Chinese puzzle - that is, that they adopt an attitude such as they have towards their own political baby , the Transkei. I shudder o conceive what would happen if a country belonging to the East had come forward to say: K.D. (or perhaps Chief Minister of the Transkei) I am prepared not only to give you the R14 million odd but I will reverse the figures and make it R41 million odd. I wonder what he would do in the face of that temptation? It reminds me of the incident which took place in Lesotho, I think, after their independence when the British Government decided to cut down the subsidy and poor Leaboa had to move around cap in hand looking for money, because people had to live. Look, hon Minister, please let me tell you as I sit down that independence will be written on a piece of paper and we are going to eat that paper. We are not going to eat independence as independence. We want money. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR D. TEZAPI : Mr Chairman and hon members, I am undoubtedly very pleased that I have been availed of this opportunity to address this House for the first time. It is quite evident that now we are trying to kill a snake already dead. By the empty threats from the benches of theOpposition it is quite evident that they are born doubting Thomases, and charlatans, as referred to by the hon the Minister of Education, are still with us today. In fact, I should have started by saying I
THURSDAY, 6 MAY 1976
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read read and confirmed. NOTICE OF MOTION
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Mr D. B. Mxutu gave notice to move:-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government request the Republican Government to absorb the increase in the price of maize till next season on account of the devastating rains which crippled effective ploughing and rendered some people homeless. "
APPROPRIATION BILL
: SECOND READING
The debate was resumed. CHAIRMAN : Hon members, it is my feeling that the budget speech has been thoroughly canvassed by this House, so I shall call upon the hon the Minister of Finance to reply. M/FINANCE: Mr Chairman and hon members, it
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should now sit in committee of supply. M/EDUCATION: I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to.
is regrettable, Sir, that when we are dealing with such an important item in our parliament - the budget the hon the Leader of the Opposition should reduce the standard to the level of party politics. In my own view I think it is the duty of the Opposition to assist the Government in all its attempts to improve the financial position of the country. Apparently the hon member has displayed an attitude which shows his loyalty is not with the Transkei but elsewhere. I thought that by now he should have known that the question of the independence of the Transkei is a fait accompli. His criticism of the budget speech displayed a negative attitude. Naturally this side of the House should suspect that he is speaking in this Chamber to please people elsewhere. It is characteristic of the hon member to display an attitude that he is opposed to the freedom of his own brothers, the black people, but I think I will deal with him sufficiently, together with those of his mind, in my policy speech which will be delivered shortly after the close of this debate. I want to advise him, however, that his political ideologies are eliminating his supporters day by day. MR H. PAMLA: Hear, hear. M/FINANCE: In all probability during the month of September when we shall be having elections he himself will be eliminated, because the people have shown beyond doubt that they are with the policy of the Government. By bringing building projects to the Transkei, which will continue ad infinitum, the Government is bringing work opportunities to the people of this territory. The Government has a duty and I need not be reminded by an Opposition which has no loyalty to this State about this duty. In terms of the policy of the Opposition this Government should not have existed, and I think it would be very much better for the Leader of the Opposition to have made his remarks and referred them to his Government in Pretoria. As far as the Transkeian Government is concerned, it is doing everything within the finances at its disposal to ameliorate the position of the black people of this territory. The increases which we find in our budget show cleary that the Government has plans for the development of this territory. The increase in government departments is not worthless expenditure; the increase in the old-age pensions and invalidity grants is not worthless expenditure; the increase in the health services, demanding such a big amount of R4 338 000, is not worthless expenditure. Government cars are necessary and essential for the services of the State. To show that the Ministers have acted in a responsible manner, they are using small cars to economise and show the public that the inflation which has hit the country should be curbed. Now, with regard to another question which was put to the Minister of Finance by a member of another Opposition party as across the floor - the hon member for Engcobo to the sources of the loan which will be obtained by the Transkei, I wish to inform him that it would not be in the best interests of the Government to reveal the sources of this loan at this stage. Mr Chairman and hon members, the hon members on the Government side canvassed all the points which should form part of my reply to criticisms on the budget speech. Any questions which are put to me as Mnister of Finance will be replied to at the committee stage of the bill. I move, Sir, that the Transkeian Appropriation Bill 1976/77 be read a second time. M/HEALTH : Seconded, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. The bill was read a second time. M/FINANCE : Mr Chairman, I move that this House waive its rules pertaining to the stages of the Appropriation Bill so that I should proceed with the committee stage straight away, but after the policy speech has been given we can only expect replies from the hon members relating to the policy speech, but the opportunity for members to make amendments to Vote 1 should be given so that the Minister of Finance should be in a position to reply to these amendments. M/HEALTH : I second. Agreed to.
House in Committee
POLICY SPEECH CHIEF MINISTER AND MINISTER OF FINANCE Mr Chairman, Honourable Paramount Chiefs and Honourable Members, this is the last occasion on which I shall be presenting a policy speech as Chief Minister and Minister of Finance. When next the House foregathers after Independence my department as it is today wll probably have split some five ways: It is planned that the Branch Chief Minister and Legislative Assembly will yo to the Department of the Prime Minister; the Branches Accounts, Treasury and Inland Revenue to the Department of Finance; the Branch Statistics and Economic Planning to the Department of Planning and Industries; the Branch Information in the main to the Department of Foreign Affairs whilst last, but not least, the Branch Public Service Commission will become a department on its own.
To paraphrase that great Statesman and Parliamentarian, Winston Churchill - the new Prime Minister will have become Prime Minister to preside over the dissolution of my private empire. The very diversity of the duties it has been my privilege to carry out over the past thirteen years is, of course, graphically illustrated by the disparate new departments to which the constituent Braches of the present department will gravitate. Some of these Branches have been strange bedfellows and the fact that the end results have always been harmonious and synchronised deserves a word of thanks for my hardpressed staff.
I believe that, freed of the mutual incompatibilities inherent in conglomorate departments, the services to be rendered after October 1976 by the more homogeneous and specialised departments will be of an even higher standard than hitherto. The draft constitution and the many bilateral agreements attendant upon independence constitute, of course, the end product of the work of the Recess Committee of this Assembly, the Joint Cabinet Committee chaired by the Honourable the Prime Minister as well as the Working Committee. I wish to place on record my own and my government's appreciation of the enormous effort that has gone into producing this blueprint for Independence. So far as we have been able, we have left few stones unturned in the quest for a sound foundation for the Republic of Transkei. At a purely administrative level the preparations for independence have also been proceeding apace. Apart from the eleven foreign service officers in training at South African Embassies, the Transkeian Public Service Commission has, in collaboration with Transkeian departments, the Department of Bantu Administration and Development, the Department of Foreign Affairs and the Republican Public Service Commission selected some 68 senior Transkeian officers for formal and inservice training with a view to manning the top echelons of the ten new departments due to be created in October. A dozen or more junior staff is to undergo intensive training over the next few weeks as private secretaries to Ministers, the State President and heads of departments.
The committee dealing with arrangements for the independence celebration is making good progress and members will by now have seen the temporary grandstands taking shape on the Municipal Recreation grounds. Here I wish to thank not only the members of the committee and their departments but also the many private organisations which are cooming forward with valuable assistance in connection with aspects of the celebrations.
APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY M/FINANCE :
Commemorative and definitive postage stamps have been designed for the Republic of Transkei and are being printed. Here a special word of thanks to the
Mr Chairman, I move that the House
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devoulty hope will not occur, is the height of cynicism. If you do not want a thing to occur you do not keep harping on it before impressionable crowds.
Philatelic Bureau of the Republican Department of Posts and Telecommunications through whose good offices this important work has proceeded so smoothly that we shall be exhibiting our stamps both in South Africa and overseas well before October. Our exhibit at this year's Rand Show will feature the designs, in fact. The printing of Revenue stamps is also far advanced and the question of a commemorative coin issue is receiving active consideration.
Furthermore, the speakers conveniently overlooked the fact that Angola and Mozambique have simply exchanged the Portuguese for Russian and Cuban yokes. When one looks at photographs of the bloodbath in Angola and the food queues in Mozambique it is plain that "liberation" on these terms is literally a case of "from the frying pan to the fire". Of course it is true that the new oppression in those unhappy countries is perpertrated by Blaks on Blacks. If my friend see this as an improvement in the lot of Blacks, their values must be strange indeed. My Government does not want any oppression by anybody of anybody and so rejects the kind of freedom found inter alia in Angola and Mozambique and also virtually everywhere else in the world where widely disparate communities are forcibly thrown together in artificial political units in which power is supposed to be shared. Need I refer to more than Northern Ireland, Cyprus, Lebanon, Spain, India/Pakistan/Bangladesh and even so sedate a country as Belgium? Involved formulas existed, or still exist to ensure powersharing but, to use the vernacular, "when the chips were down", race, language and religion split the uncomfortable bedfellows and in practice, the powersharing formulas have turned out to be blue-prints for sectarian violence.
The First Battalion, Transkeian Army is now based in Umtata and will, I hope, move into their permanent accommodation within a matter of weeks. When one considers how raw these recruits were only a matter of months ago the metamorphosis is little short of astanding. I would however, address a word of advice to these young men: You have chosen a calling in which discipline is strict, far stricter, far stricter than in civilian life. Having regard to the tools of your trade this is unavoidable. I do not wish to hear of your complaining about it. You will be our first line of defence if ever, God forbid, we need it. For this you must be tough and disciplined. In our Army there is no place for the slack. Obedience and ésprit de corps must be your hallmark. The Prime Minister of the Republic of Transkei will also be the Minister of Defence. Remember this. The integration of Herschel and Glen Grey in the Transkei has now virtually been completed. The task has been complicated by the obstructionism of certain chiefs and others in the Herschel district who have decided to throw in their lot with the Ciskei. My Government respects their right of free choice but deplores the way in which they have exercised that choice. I am glad to confirm that those chiefs who welcomed the annexation are now honoured members of this Assembly here present and that they have been joined by five elected members. The travail is therefore over and the two districts march shoulder to shoulder with us into the future.
I agree with the erudite speakers that Blacks in South Africa have for many years been oppressed. I only disagree with them on how we can escape this oppression. They belive in a pie-in-the-sky power. I do not share that belief. I am, like they, satisfied that the unitary South Africa in which now we live and which they seek to perpetuate geographically in federal form is politically indefensible and must be replaced. But no powersharing is going to work - blood is simply thicker than water and this fact underlies my opting to take the Transkei and its people out of the politically oppressive situation existing in the Republic.
In a nutshell, the policy of my department during the two-part year, 1 April 1976 to 25 October 1976 and 26 October 1976 to 31 March 1977, is to work systematically towards independence, implement it and make ends meet in the difficult fiscal circumstances disclosed in the Budget Speech.
When the Transkei is independent politically, all options will be open to it to re-associate itself with the Republic or any other State federally or conferderally if this course of action is in the Transkei's best interests. But the peaceful restructuring of South Africa cannot begin while soever the Blacks are politically impotent within the White State. It is common cause that White South Africa has steadfastly refused to confer upon Blacks the right to participate in political decision-making in the Cape Town Parliament.
In so far as our road too sovereignty is concerned, I once again on 20 April 1976 explained why the Transkei opted for Independence. Delivering the opening speech at the Congress of the Foreign Affairs Association in Umtata I dealt at length with the South African situation as a whole and the Transkei's position in particular. My remarks on that occasion followed closely my policy speech head to this house by the Minister of Justice exactly a year ago and I am loath to repeat my well-known stand on the various issues.
The Black man has, therefore, to choose between accepting the status quo (to me an unacceptable proposition); bloody revolution to secure political power from the Whites (also unacceptable to me and my Government because the outcome will be horrific on all sides); or to opt out peacefully. We have to choose between these three alternatives. We cannot sidestep the issue. We have to choose between these three alternatives. We cannot sidestep the issue. We have chose nthe latter path because it is in our best interests. So it is not "entirely up to White South Africa , whether the revolution that is unfolding will be peaceful or bloody" we Blaks also have a say in the direction things take. If my friends also feel it is incorrect to work along our peaceful line in, for instance, their Homelands because it is part of the "political treachery" stalking he land it would seem they should resign the positions they hold in the hated establishment for the salaries they draw are, by their standards, certainly tainted money. If they do not resign one must conclude that their condemnation of "élitism" is highly selective.
However, Mr Chairman, recent polemics in the Press, originating with a certain Homeland Leader and a politically active cleric, constitute an attack on my policy and that of my Government to which, at the risk of repeating myself, it seems I must reply. Recently, from Press reports, I have been attacked in certain quarters for opting for independence. The same critics in a joint statement condemned foreign investment in South Africa's "central economy" whatever that expression may denote. Since, in those critics' own opinion, South Africa and the Homelands have an integrated economy, this condemnation must be constructed as also directed against foreign investment in the Homelands. Again, therefore, they attacked me because I am a well-known protagonist of such investment. Reduced to essentials, the criticism aforesaid in my humble opinion is an immoderate left-wing manifesto verging on incitement to revolution and sedition. To harangue the crowds on how Angola and Mozambique inspire the Blaks of South Africa to throw off the yoke of oppression and not so subtly to suggest that such revolutionary events are imminent in the Republic is bad enough but to attempt to evade being regarded as an inciter by saying that they say these things merely as a friendly warning against eventuatlities they
To move on to the critics' sally into the world of economics I need hardly stress that their language appears to me to be that of the far Left. Expressions such as ' racial redistribution of wealth and power" "capitalistic paternalism", "this capitalistic endeavour is doomed", "capitalistic control (over) .... the oppressed masses" abound in their joint statement and have a familiar ring. No other conclusion can be reached from this anti-capitalistic diatribe than that the
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two critics support a socialistic economy. That being so they should take another look at the lot of common man in socialist countries. That "men have been consistently dehumanised" in capitalist countries of yesteryear may well be true to a greater or lesser extent but the dehumanising effects of modern state socialism has been proved over and over to a point quite beyond dispute.
tions, be applied to the Transkei to update our financial procedures and under which provision is made for the appointment, for the first time, of the Transkei's own Auditor-General. CORPORATIONS BILL to pave the way for the operation of the Transkeian Development Corporation (successor to the Xhosa Development Corporation) under our own enactment after independence rather than, as will be the case as an interim measure, under Republican Act 46 of 18968.
Talk of Pasternak, Solzhenitsyn and the millions of Eastern Europe and Asia who have fled the oppression or, despite being enfranchised , have "votes with their feet". Talk to Angoland refugees and the hungry of Mozambique. The socialist paradise in which a “radical redistribution of waelth and power" has taken place is surrounded by barbed wire, walls, searchlifghts , mines and guns - aimed inwards! The frantic traffic is one out (dead or alive). way
The Transkeian Airways Corporation will also derive its existence from the new measure. GENERAL LOANS ACT Members will recall that as from 1 April 1975 item 39 of Part B of the First Schedule to the Transkei Constitution Act 48 of 1963 empowered this Assembly to pass legislation concerning the raising of loans on certain conditions. The financial position disclosed in the Budget Speech has now made the passing of such legislation an urgent necessity.
The trouble with socialist economics is that they may well radically redistribute the wealth they inherited from past capitalism but they are singularly inept at creating it consistently. In essence they wiye out the rich but their riches resdistributed have no significant beneficial effects on the masses. Thus it is that defeated capitalist Germany builds trucks for victorious socialist Russia, defeated capitalist Italy builds its cars, defeated captialist Japan builds its oil wells, and capitalist United States feeds it; whilst South Africa's capitalist economy keeps most of its Black neighbour states from collapse.
Passing now to Vote 1 as such, members will note from page 2 of the Estimates that it is proposed to raise overall expenditure from the R2 358 000 of 1975/76_to R3 029 000 in 1976/1977. This increase of R671 000 amounts to 28,5 %. By far the greatest portion of this increase is accounted for by expansion of the overseas establishment and related matters (see footnotes on page 6 and item A.2 on page 7). I have at hand notes on various other subheads and items exhibiting substantial variations over the last year and will, upon request, gladly reply to members' questions thereanent. Meanwhile I do not propose to burden the House with detail.
My country, the Transkei, desperately needs work opportunities for its people and, against the sad spectable of socialist economic failures, we see capitalism with a conscience (which it today certainly has) as our salvation . And that means foreign investment is a sine qua non. Any attempt by people such as those to whom I have just referred to keep such investment away from South Africa and, by necessary inference, from the Transkei, is tantamount to taking the bread out of my people's mouths and must be dismissed with the contempt which it deserves. Finally, for two well-fed, well-dressed and well-paid individuals such as they to preach the virtues of mass-unemployment would be hilarious if the potential consequences were not so tragic. With friends like that, the Black man hardly needs enemies.
Lest, however, members should suspect that my department has not set an example of economising in this hard year, I would advise that proposed expenditure under my Department's Vote has been cut back by almost half a million rand. As a result vacancies in the staff establishment will not be filled except in key positions; overseas representatives, who will be recalled on 1 August 1976 in connection with the Independence issue, will remain in the Transkei until after October. Travelling and transport will be curtailed. Provision for publicity, including the Rand Show 1977 has been drastically pruned and provision for financial assistance to lower authorities and to the Municipality of Umtata has been decreased substantially. -
The Transkei as a sovereign state will join all international institutions as of right. Nobody will prescribe to it how to get its sovereignty. Our Constitution is so watertight that the opponens of the decolonisation enterprise in an erstwhile British Colony as became imminent in the English Press are searching high and low to find fault with it. The basic principle of Sovereignty cannot be assailed. Blame is put on the Drafters for not repealing certain Republican Laws. This to me is nonsense because only Parliament will repeal Laws which have no bearing o nthe constitution as and when it becomes necessary to do so.
At this juncture, Mr Chairman, I would like to draw the attention of hon members to page 10 of the EstiTribal Authorities (including mates, subhead G.2 R40 000 for clinic buildings). This is a mistake by the printers, as the clinics are under the Department of Health. The continued shortage of staff will demand from each official in service both higher productivity and further spells of unpaid overtime.
The constitution is the property of the Transkeian people. They are the only people who should be satisfied about its conferment of freedom on them. The constitutions of other Independent States in Africa were improved by their Parliaments when they deemed fit to make such improvements. Attempts were being made to besmirch the good name of the Transkei and to frigten away the international world from according it recognition. West Germany, Switzerland and Taiwan are not members of the U.N. Organisation but all three countries rank far above the countries of the third world in economic viability. The Transkei will ignore all attempts to clamp on its sovereignty and will establish friendship and trade relations with those countries that are friendly disposed towards it.
Since most of the expenditure of this Department is in respect of salaries and allowances, no further savings can be effected and the amount of R3 029 000 provided for under my Department's Vote represents the absolute minimum which will have to be available to avoid a serious disruption of services. Mr Chairman, I now move that the policy of my department be approved by this House. M/HEALTH : I second , Mr Chairman. M/FINANCE: I now move that the debate on this Vote of the Chief Minister be postponed until Tuesday morning, but all the other policy speeches of the other Ministers come on to the order paper ― that is, on Friday and Monday. This will give the hon members sufficient opportunity to digest this length speech which I have delivered this morning . If this is a cceptable, hon members, I will be very happy. M/AGRICULTURE : I second, Mr Chairman.
The Legislative programme for which my department is responsible during this session, is the following:— EXCHEQUER AND AUDIT BILL in terms of which the revised Exchequer and Audit Act 66 of 1975 of the Republic will, with minor adapta-
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MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, do I understand the hon the Chief Minister to suggest that amendments may be put in tomorrow and Monday on Vote 17 M/FINANCE : Yes, on both days. MR GUZANA: Then what will be the position in regard to the other Minister who are supposed to deliver their policy speeches one after the other, since this is going to somewhat curtail the right of response not only to the members but also tend to postpone debate on amendments to their Votes? M/FINANSE: I do not think there will be any difficulty in this matter in so far as amendments on Vote 1 are concerned. I will move that they be allowed to come in on both days - that is, Friday and Monday but with regard to the other Minister I think the usual procedure will be applied. MR GUZANA: So that they don't address us one after the other? M/FINANCE: No, the position is that you will have to discuss that particular Vote and finish with it. The debate was adjourned.
able to the Transkei as a whole. It would be anomalous for the Administration of the Transkei to administer two sets of laws on two sections of the Transkei, and for purposes of uniformity the Opposition therefore supports this bill. ACTG M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, I move that this House goes through all the stages of the bill and for that reason I move that the rules of the House be waived so that we can proceed with this bill and finish it this afternoon. CHAIRMAN : We shall first ask the Secretary to read the bill a second time. The bill was read a second time. CHAIRMAN : The Acting Minister of Justice has asked leave to waive the rules. Is there any seconder? M/HEALTH: Seconder, Mr Chairman. Agreed to.
AFTERNOON SESSION
COMMITTEE STAGE
M/FINANCE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I move that the Deputy Chairman should report progress to the Chairman of the House because we would like to postpone the Appropriation Bill until tomorrow morning. M/EDUCATION: I second. Agreed to,
ACTG M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, I move that the House should convert itself into committee in order to consider the clauses of this bill.
EXTENSION OF APPLICATION OF TRANSKEIAN LAWS BILL:
House in Committee
On Clause 1 House Resumed ACTG M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, the laws which have to be extended to the two districts of Glen Grey and Herschel will be found on page 1 of the Schedule which is attached to your bill distributed a few days ago. They start from 1964 up to 1975. These were laws which were passed by this parliament. Naturally all the laws of the Republic which still apply to the Transkei will apply to the two districts of Lady Frere and Herschel. I move the adoption of section 1 , Mr Chairman. M/INTERIOR : I second. Clause 1 put and agreed to.
The D/Chairman reported progress. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, I move that the discussion on the draft bill should be postponed to enable me to deal with two short bills which we can dispose of this afternoon. Agreed to. EXTENSION OF APPLICATION OF TRANSKEIAN LAWS BILL: SECOND READING.
On Clause 2 ACTING M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, Honourable Paramount Chiefs and Honourable Members, I rise to move the second reading of the Extension of the Application of Transkeian Laws Act, 1976.
ACTG M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, all the laws which are to be repealed which applied to the Glen Grey district start from 1951 when the Bantu Authorities Act was passed and thereafter from 1968 to 1971. I move the adoption of section 2. M/INTERIOR: I second. Clause 2 put and agreed to. Clause 3 put and agreed to. Long title and whole bill put and agreed to. Schedules 1 and 2 passed to stand part of the bill.
As members are aware the Transkei Constitution Act 1963 has recently been amended by the Central Government to provide for the inclusion of the districts of Glen Grey and Herschel in the Transkei. In accordance with the basic principles of constitutional law these areas were included into the Transkei subject to the proviso that all laws applicable at the time will continue to apply until repealed by a competent authority e.g. the Transkeian Legislative Assembly.
House Resumed D/CHAIRMAN: Mr Chairman, I wish to report that the committee has passed the Extension of the Application of Transkeian Laws Bill without amendment.
Mr Chairman, you will no doubt agree that it is not in the interests of sound administration that Transkeian citizens in these two districts should be governed by laws different from those applicable to the rest of the territory and it is for this reason that I ask for the extension of the application of the laws reflected in the first schedule hereto which were passed by this House to these two districts, so as to ensure uniformity in the administration of the whole of the Transkei.
EXTENSION OF APPLICATION OF TRANSKEIAN LAWS BILL: THIRD READING
Consequential to the extension of Transkeian legislation to the aforementioned areas the corresponding legisla to the aforementioned areas the corresponding legislation presently applicable in these two districts is being repealed.
ACTG M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, I move that this bill be now read a third time, M/EDUCATON: I second. Agreed to. The bill was read a third time. ACTG M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, the Deeds Registry Amendment Bill is a very short and non-contentious bill and I have no doubt that there will be no opposition to it, so I move that we waive the rules of this House in order to proceed with all the stages of the bill until we come to the final stage - the third reading. M/EDUCATION : I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to.
This is a very short amendment, Mr Chairman, I now move that the bill be read a second time. M/HEALTH : I second, Mr Chairman. MR K. M. GUZANÁ: Mr Chairman and hon members, it is quite correct that these two districts which have become part and parcel of the Transkei should have laws applicable to them which are applic-
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DEEDS REGISTRY AMENDMENT BILL:
members, becomes a permanent institution not easily changed with change of political fortunes, so that its policy has a degree of permanency which is unaffected by the change in the Ministers of State. The Minister is a political figure who may be at the head of a department for a period of five years, to move out again and be replaced by another Minister, and such a change may result in policy changes. ACTG M/JUSTICE: You are wrong. You don't understand the purpose of the Board. MR GUZANA: But where you have a Board that retains permanency. Then again, this usurpation of power by the Minister is a tendency which is developing in all democratic and pseudo-democratic governments. ACTG M/JUSTICE: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, the hon member is completely out of order. If there was only one Deeds Registry in the whole of the Republic of South Africa there should never have been a Board. The Deeds Registry of the Republic of South Africa should have been responsible direct to the Minister. I am explaining this because I do not think the hon member understands there were four Deeds Registries in the Republic and the purpose of the Board was merely to bring about uniformity between all these Deeds Registries. That Board did not interfere at all with the powers of the Minister in relation to the Deeds Registries direct, and so far as the Transkei is concerned there will only be one Deeds Registry there won't be several --- and therefore there is no question of uniformity to be considered. I am explaining this in order that the hon members should not be misled by what the hon the Leader of the Opposition is saying. He is always attacking ministerial power. M/EDUCATION : We are aware of that. MR GUZANA: I do hope you understand the position so long as you are Ministers. I am quite convinced in my own mind that the Board was not only concerned with maintaining uniformity, but had other functions as well. ACTG M/JUSTICE: You are wrong. MR GUZANA: I have canvassed that point and my point at this moment deals with the concentration of powers in the Executive, so that Executives begin to take powers unto themselves and reduce the very principles which are the basis of a democratic institution .. MR H. D. MLONYENI : What is the basis of democracy? The will of the people. MR GUZANA: .... so that it is wiser to have these powers exercised by a non-political institution such as a Board, rather than a political head such as a Minister. ACTG M/JUSTICE: Where have you ever seen such a thing in any country? MR GUZANA: These are my submissions, Mr Chairman. ACTG M/JUSTICE : Nobody will support you in this, because you are completely out. M/EDUCATION: The members of the Board may have a political affiliation. MR GUZANA: If members of the Board exercise affiliation to a political party they are supposed to be impartial when they perform their functions. (Interjections) The Minister is a political head, don't you know that? Have you lost the basis of your position as Minister now? These are my comments, Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN : Any comments from the hon Minister? ACTG M/JUSTICE: I have no comments, Mr Chairman. I have moved that the bill be read a second time. Afreed to. The bill was read a second time.
SECOND READING ACTG M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, Honourable Paramount Chiefs and Honourable Members, it gives me great pleasure to introduce the Transkeian Deeds Registry Amendment Bill for consideration by this House. Although the Transkei Constitution Act gives this House legislative powers in repect of registration of deeds in the Transkei these functions have up to now been carried out by the Registrar of Deeds Cape Town, and this was, and is still being done in terms of the provisions of the Deeds Registries Act of the Republic of South Africa (Act No. 47 of 1937).
It is desirable that the Transkei gets its own Deeds Registries Act and Mr Jones, Registrar of Deeds at King William's Town is drafting a bill in this connection which will be introduced in Parliament for consideration shortly after independence. He has already had preliminary discussion with the hon the Minister of Justice and with the Department in this connection. Our concern at the moment is the interim period .... . the period between independence day and the day our own Deeds Registries Act comes into operation, and it is this concern that necessitates the bill now before you. The registration of deeds cannot come to a standstill and the establishment of a deeds registry in Umtata with or even before independence, as provided for in clause one of the bill is imperative, This registry will take over all functions presently performed by the deeds registry in Cape Town. However, all pending matters submitted to the Cape Town Registry at the inception of the proposed Act, or the establishment of a deeds registry at Umtata, will be disposed by the former. Mr Chairman, on the whole the rest of these amendments are not drastic and are merely incidental to the provisions for the establishment of a deeds registry for the Transkei. I must however refer to one amendment which results in a fairly important change from the existing Act. A deeds registries regulations board exists in terms of section 9 of the Act. Its main function is to co-ordinate and to ensure that there is uniformity of procedure between the different registries in the Republic of South Africa. As there will only be one deeds registry for the Transkei the need for such a board falls away and in terms of clause 4, section 9 of the principal Act is therefore repealed. The duties previously performed by the board will now be the responsibility of the Minister.
The other provisions deal with consequential matters, such as appointment of an assistant registrar, the delegation of certain powers by the Minister, the taking charge of records, registers to be kept etc. The bill contains no contentious provisions and I move that it be read a second time. M/INTERIOR: I second, Mr Chairman. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I think this House is getting into the "Agreed" groove rather easily. Sir, I have one or two comments to make. First of all, this side of the House does not oppose the passing of this bill. At least this casts a shadow into the future as to the Government's intention to make it possible for occupiers of land to be owners of land, for the Deeds Registry, amongst other things and most importantly, includes amongst its functions the registration of titles, registration of burdens imposed on immovable property, registration of notarial deeds, etc. It would therefore be a mockery if we did not give work to this Registry, and the first way in which we could indicate its utility and its relevance to the Transkei is for this Government to grant land ownership in the rural areas. I must again register my disapproval of the passing of powers from the Board, with its abolition, to the Minister. A Board is made up of
DEEDS REGISTERY AMENDMEHNT BILL: COMMITTEE STAGE ACTG M/JUSTICE: I move that the House converts itself into committee, Mr Chairman. M/AGRICULTURE : I second. Agreed to. House in Committee
O Clause 1 ACTG M/JUSTICE : 241 .
Mr Chairman, this amendment
On Clause 11
provides for the establishment of a Deeds Registry to be situated at Umtata which will take over all the functions presently performed by the Deeds Registry in Cape Town. I move the adoption of this section. M/INTERIOR: I second. Clause 1 put and agreed to.
ACTG M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, clause 11 relates to the repeal of the second schedule which describes the areas of jurisdiction of the Republican Deeds Offices. I move the adoption of this clause. M/EDUCATION : I second. Clause 11 put and agreed to. Clause 12 put and agreed to. Long title put and agreed to.
On Clause 2 ACTG M/JUSTICE: This section provides for the appointment of a registrar and an assistant registrar of deeds who shall be incharge of the Deeds Registry. I move the adoption. M/EDUCATION: I second. Clause 2 put and agreed to.
House Resumed D/CHAIRMAN : Mr Chairman, I wish to report that the House in committee has passed the Deeds Registry Amendment Bill without amendment.
On Clause 3 ACTG M/JUSTICE: This amendment brings this Act into line with the South African legislation and deletes the references to the Rand Township Registry which is not relevant to the Transkei. I move the adoption. M/AGRICULTURE: I second. Clause 3 put and agreed to.
DEEDS REGISTRY AMENDMENT BILL: THIRD READING ACTG M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, I move that this bill be read a third time. M/INTERIOR: I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. The bill was read a third time. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, on behalf of the hon the Minister of Justice I move that the Transkei Liquor Amendment Bill stand over, as I feel it may take a longer time than the other two bills. M/ROADS: I second. Agreed to.
On Clause 4 ACTG M/JUSTICE: As I explained during the second reading stage of this bill, Mr Chairman, the Deeds Registries Act of 1937. As there is no need for such a board in the Transkei, section 9 is repealed. I move the adoption of this section. M/EDUCATION: I second, Clause 4 put and agreed to.
ROAD TRAFFIC AMENDMENT BILL: COMMITTEE STAGE
On Clause 5
M/ROADS & WORKS: Mr Chairman and hon members, I move that the House converts itself into committee, M/AGRICULTURE : I second. Agreed to.
ACTG M/JUSTICE: The amendment empowers the Minister to make regulations governing the fuction of the Deeds Registry. I move the adoption. M/INTERIOR: I second. MR GUZANA: Mr Chairman, I move the deletion of subsection (e) on the basis of my submission during the second reading. MR N. JAFTA: I second. ACTG M/JUSTICE: I think the House knows my submission on this point - that there is no necessity for this Board in the Transkei as there is only one Deeds Registry. Amendment put and negatived. Clause 5 put and agreed to.
House in Committee
On Clause 1 M/ROADS: Mr Chairman, in clause 1 the Minister is being empowered to prescribe that any government department or statutory body such as the Transkei Development Corporation may be authorized to issue learners' and drivers' licences to persons in their employ and such licences will only authorize the holders thereof to drive only vehicles that are the property of the Government or of that statutory body. Shhould the driver decide to leave his employment or should he be discharged, the driver is supposed to surrender the licence to the body which issued it. Also, the statutory body is being empowered to issue licences of fitness. The existing authorities issuing drivers' licences are only concerned if a person has a knowledge of the various road signs, can park a vehicle and knows how to operate the gears as well as steering . The drivers therefore who have been given licences by the existing bodies are a danger to the public, because of the facts I have stated namely, that the existing authorities which issue these licences are only concerned with the fact that the person can drive and park a car, whereas the statutory body has a well-equipped drivers' school with a qualified instructor. Uunder those circumstances, hon members, I believe the drivers who get their licences from the statutory body are better equipped and are safer than the other drivers. I move the adoption of this clause. am seconding him, Mr ChairM/EDUCATION : man. MR K. M. GUZANA : Mr Chairman, I am intrigued by the comments of the hon the Minister of Roads in regard to this clause. He states that the driver who has obtained his driver's licence from the statutory body or from the Department of Railways and Harbours is a better driver than the driver to whom a regular Traffic Department has issued a driver's licence, and his arguement is based on the fact that these statutiry bodies (including the Department of Railways and Harbours) have instrocturs not only to instruct but
On Clause 6
ACTG M/JUSTICE: Clause 6 is self-explanatory, Mr Chairman, and it is not necessary for me to motivate on it. I move its adoption. Clause 6 put and agreed to. On Clause 7 ACTG M/JUSTICE : The amendment in clause 7 empowers the Registrar to use the existing_registers until the Minister prescribes new registers for the Transkei. I move the adoption. M/INTERIOR: I second. Clause 7 put and agreed to. On Clause 8 ACTG M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, the amendment in this section is intended to validate documents signed on behalf of the appointed registrar by his successor or an acting registrar. I move the adoption. Clause 8 put and agreed to, Clause 9 put and agreed to. On Clause 10 ACTG M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, the Official Gazette of the Transkei is substituted for the Government Gazette of the Republic of South Africa. That is the purpose of this section and I move the adoption hereof. M/INTERIOR : I second. Clause 10 put and agreed to.
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D/CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I would like to find out from the hon Minister if what is being discussed is not the principle involved in this bill. M/ROADS: It is. D/CHAIRMAN: Therefore in terms of rule 113 this discussion cannot be allowed. Clause 1 put and agreed to.
also to test a driver. Now, I want to know why the better driver who has obtained his licence from a statutory body or from the Department of Railways should surrender his licence when he leaves the department, since he is a better driver than the one who gets his licence from the Traffic Department. I think it would stand him in better stead as a private driver if indeed the licence he obtained from this statutory body indicates a better qualification to drive. The second point I want to ask the hon Minister is this : Can this statutory driver exchange his statutory driver's licence for a driver's licence which is issued to all and sundry? After all, he is supposed to be a better driver than the public driver. Why can't he surrender his statutory licence for a public one? M/AGRICULTURE: He has to pay for it. MR GUZANA: The question of money is not relevant here. May we have an explanation of these two points. M/ROADS: The point at issue here is this : As it is now, the Department of Roads is having difficulty because after the people have been trained they leave this department and go to seek jobs somewhere else, so if the statutory body takes it upon itself to train this driver the statutory body must also be protected, and the only way by which it can be protected is by causing these people to surrender the licences we issued to them. MR GUZANA: What is the statutory body protecting? What is it losing in allowing this individual to hold the licence?
On Clause 2
M/ROADS: Mr Chairman, clause 2 deals with a driver whose competence has become doubtful. The Minister can summon such driver for a retesting and for this purpose such driver will be required to supply a vehicle on which he is to be tested. This is done with a view to clarifying the controversy that has been in the minds of many drivers as to who is supposed to provide the vehicles when one of them is to be retested. If for any reason the driver concerned does not turn up within the specified period the Minister shall, unless reasons for such failure are sound and reasonable and acceptable to the Minister, have no option but to suspend or cancel the driver's licence for a period to be determined by the Minister. Hon members know that it is an old rule that any driver who is desirous to get the learner's or driver's licence from any testing authorities has to provide a vehicle on which he is to be tested, and the Government would be really going against this rule if it has to supply the vehicle for any driver who has to undergo another test. This is done with a view to safeguarding government-owned vehicles from being recklessly driven by such incompetent drivers. I now move that clause 2 be adopted. M/AGRICULTURE: I second. MR H. H. ZIBI : Mr Chairman, I would like some motivation on this. Does this section apply to the drivers who are provided for under section 1 ? That is, drivers for corporations or the Railways Department? Or does it apply specifically to drivers who get their licences from the usual competent authority? Further, the hon Minister speaks of a driver whose competence has become doubtful. How do you arrive at the doubtfulness of a driver who is fully licensed? M/ROADS: Mr Chairman, it is common practice that a driver who already has a driver's licence at times may be disqualified from driving on a public road because he is not fully conversant with driving, and such driver has to be retested. MR ZIBI : Does it provide for drivers referred to in section 1 or to ordinary drivers? M/ROADS: Just ordinary drivers. CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA : Mr Chairman, I want to know in connection with this Act whether what was passed last year in this House applies now - that a person who has to drive a vehicle must have passed matric MR C. DKO: That is irrelevant. Look at the section. CHIEF MABANDLA: .... because I know certain white people were never schooled when they had to drive our trucks. MR DIKO : Mr Chairman, this is irrelevant. This has nothing to do with the section. D/CHAIRMAN: Will the hon member speak in connection with section 2 - the retesting of a driver. CHIEF MABANDLA: Is this Act intended only for the black people and not for the white people? D/CHAIRMAN: The clause itself talks of a driver's licence. It does not refer to any race. CHIEF MABANDLA: How can a driver who has obtained his licence from the Government have his licence taken away from him? D/CHAIRMAN: I will give the hon member a last chance to ask a question on clause 2. You are now taking us back to clause 1 . CHIEF MABANDLA: Mr Chairman, I know that the Government is always most unhappy when you criticize. I am going to take my seat and allow you people to speak. CHIEF J. NTOLA: Mr Chairman, I would like the hon Minister to explain whether a man who obtained such a licence and his licence was taken away could not then go to another department to obtain a driver's licence. If so, will it be a requirement that he should first be tested before he is given a driver's licence? Would he have a right to lay a claim - namely, that he was tested and passed as a driver?
M/ROADS: We can lose the services of this man. MR GUZANA: So because you have trained them better you want to keep them tied so that they cannot go anywhere else if they get a better job. (nterjections) It looks very like bringing in some form of constraint on these drivers to keep them in the department's employ. Why not let them go elsewhere? They may get a better job with better pay and you want to hold them back by making them surrender their licences. (Interjections) D/CHAIRMAN: Order, please. M/EDUCATION: I think it is understandable that the driver who is going away and leaving his employers must surrender the licence. CHIEF G. M. MABANDLA: Why? M/EDUCATION : It is understood that when a driver is given a licence there can be no specific guarantee that that driver, say after five or seven or ten years after the licence was offered to him, is still a good driver. MR GUZANA: That is not the point. M/EDUCATION: That is the point - which means, Mr Chairman, the statutory body concerned must protect itself in case anything happens to this gentleman. For instance, he may have lost his sight or anything could have happened to him, so it is essential for the statutory body to have the licence surrendered and then this gentleman can go elsewhere for further training or further testing. It will be very easy. MR GUZANA: If that is the condition, then everybody who has a driver's licence ought to be tested every five or ten year, but this is not so. M/EDUCATION: That is coming. That is the trend. MR GUZANA: It may be the trend, but it is not the law yet. (Interjections) There are many drivers here who hold licences which have been valid for the last twenty years, and nobody has required to have them tested every five years after the issue of the licence. There is therefore no validity in the suggestion that after ten years the man may have lost his eyesight because this is not the criterion applied to other drivers. In the circumstances I do not think the confiscation of this licence is valid. I know there are members here who have been using drivers' licences issued to them 20 or 30 years ago. M/ROADS: Who issued those licences? MR GUZANA: That is irrelevant. M/ROADS: No, it is relevant. MR GUZANA: It is the people who are authorized to grant the licences and who are in effect being considered capable of assessing one's ability to drive. This man is now able to drive, so why take the licence away from him? M/ROADS: We are not concerned with those people. We are only concerned with people employed by statutory bodies. (Interjections)
243.
local authority. In regard to subsection (b) I asked during the second reading debate whether or not owners or sellers with a suspensive sales agreement over the vehicle concerned or who have a lease agreement will be entitled to claim from the local authority the value of the vehicle sold, which value is supposed to be forfeited to such authority. May I have a reply to that. M/ROADS: Mr Chairman, I think if it were to be the responsibility of the local authority to pay these people out, if the people purchasing cars by instalments were, after abandoning their cars, to be free from paying their instalments it would encourage them to leave their cars along the road. MR GUZANA: Mr Chairman, that was not the question. The question relates to the seller whose vehicle has been sold and the money forfeited to the local authority. Has that seller a right to claim that money? His relationship with the buyer is not the matter at issue here, because that is regulated by the agreement between them, but the seller who still retains onwership -- what of that? M/EDUCATION : Mr Chairman, I do not think there is any difficulty about this. The seller has a right to make a claim from the buyer. It is as simple as that. MR GUZANA: I am not talking about the buyer. I am talking about the local authority. M/AGRICULTURE: Why did he leave it on the road? MR B. P. VAPI: Mr Chairman, the hon members of the Opposition enjoy cornering the hon Minister whenever a chance avails itself. There is no need for any amendment as far as this question is concerned. It is only right that a car should be kept for a period of a month and then be sold. We have met the difficulty where cars have been confiscated which were carrying dagga. We wanted to buy them but they are kept for a long time. We would that the time of the House should not be wasted. We were told we would even work overtime at night. I wish hon members would waste time. Amendment put and negatived. Clause 6 put and agreed to. The debate was adjourned .
M/ROADS: Mr Chairman, I think that question is irrelevant to this section. Clause 2 put and agreed to. On Clause 3 MR K. M. GUZANA: Will the hon Minister motivate, please. M/ROADS: Mr Chairman, the amendment in clause 3 is as a result of the envisaged merging of the South African Railways Motor Transport Services with the Transport Department for the Transkei and they are going to be empowered to issue certificates of fitness for their vehicles. Clause 3 put and agreed to. On Clause 4 M/ROADS: Mr Chairman, in this clause the Minister is empowered to prescribe and designate road traffic sings pertaining to certain clauses of public roads i.e. national roads, freeways and other minor roads - and he can at the same time prescribe which roads or portions of the roads can be used by certain classes of traffic. These road signs were posted up in certain areas as a test and since it has been established that they are now suitable for that purpose and are deemed necessary, the new road sings are being legalized. I move the adoption. Clause 4 put and agreed to.
On Clause 5 MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, during the second reading I asked the hon the Minister of roads and Works to say whether or not the sound of a horn of a private car commandeered by a police officer in an emergency would be deemed to be meeting a prescribed sound. M/ROADS: Mr Chairman, here we are dealing with government vehicles, not private vehicles. I move the adoption of this clause. Clause 5 put and agreed to. On Clause 6
House Resumed. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman , under section 6(a) where the period during which the owner shall be traced is given as one month after the car has been confiscated or removed from a public road after it has stood for longer than the stipulated period, I move an amendment for the substitution of the words "one month" by the words "three months", regard being had to the rural nature of the Transkei and the difficulty experienced in postal contact with these people. MR N. JAFTA: I second , Mr Chairman. M/ROADS: Mr Chairman, in this section I might say that experience has shown that vehicles kept after they have been abandoned by the owners involves a great deal of expense and a large area is required for storage. Over and above that, whilst these cars are in the custody of the authority concerned it often happens that certain parts of these cars are stolen and it becomes very difficult to trace who the culprits are, thus in order to obviate the risks the cars must be disposed of within a month, of course after all endeavours have been made to trace the owner of the vehicle cancerned. MR H. H. ZIBI: Mr Chairman, the question of theft, to my mind, may occur on the same day as the arrival of that car. (Interjections) I am trying to say that the limit of time doesn't necessarly mean the car will not be stolen. (Interjections) Further, who is responsible for that particular loss if it is stolen while in the custody of the authority? M/AGRICULTURE : What did he expect when he left it on the road? MR P. N. NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman, I wish to make a few remarks. It is not right for a car to be kept only for a month, because the owner may only have lost his car because it was stolen from him and he is still looking for it. This car must be kept for a period of three months. You have people who could guard these cars. You must employ people to guard these cars. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, I would submit that the risk of theft should be minimized by the degree of cace whilst the car is in the custody of the
The D/Chairman reported progress. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday, 7 May 1976. FRIDAY, 7 MAY 1976
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. NOTICE OF MOTION
66.
Mr E. V. Ndamase gave notice to move :-
"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Transkei Government should consider as an urgent matter the advisability of building a sub police station at Nkanga in the district of Libode to fight the alarming upsurge of stock theft in the area." APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY M/HEALTH : Mr Chairman and hon members, on behalf of the hon the Minister of Justice I move that the House converts itself into committee of supply. M/AGRICULTURE : I second. Agreed to.
House in Committee POLICY SPEECH
: MINISTER OF JUSTICE
M/HEALTH : Mr Chairman, Honourable mount Chiefs and the Honourable members.
Para-
In rising on behalf of the hon the Minister of Justice to move that vote 2 be approved I must once more 244 .
report a considerable expansion in the establishment of the Department of Justice reference to the figures before you will readily indicate. As we approach our independence it is vitally necessary that the administrative machinery of our Government be established and geared to not only ensure a smooth transition from the old regime to the new but aslo to meet and cope with any new challenge the immediate future may hold. The Department, through its district administration, its judicature, its police force and its prison service has, possibly more than any other, to do with the day to day affairs of the general public. You will agree that an efficient and well-trained organisation is essential to meet such a task. It is towards an organisation that the Department strives.
It is with regret, however, that I must refer to the continued steady drain of our experienced and qualified staff to the more lucrative private sector. No less than 48 officers, most of whom could be ill-spared, resigned last year to take up more profitable employment. This is a wastage that can no longer be afforded and it is to be trusted that the Public Service Commission will give this matter urgent attention. The Department is more than willing to encourge young men wishing to follow a legal career to obtain the necessary legal qualifications and in this field officers generous bursary conditions for both extra and intramural studies. There are at present 28 officers studying full-time at Fort Hare University for law degrees and diplomas. Three of these officers are doing post-graduate study for the LL.B Degree to fit them for posts attached to the High Court. In addition 31 officers are studying by correspendence with the University of South Africa for their legal qualifications.
The district magistrate's office remains the focus to which the average man turns when beset with problems in his daily round of life. The magistrates and their staffs, although still suffering from a severe shortage of personnel, continue to render sterling services to the public under trying circumstances and I desire to place on record my sincere appreciation of the manner in which they have acquitted themselves of their task.
As full use as in possible is being made of facilities at the University of Zululand to train civil prosecutors for our magistrate's Courts. 18 officers attended the course Results to date have been most encouraging.
As you the aware the districts of Glen Grey and Herschel have been added to the Transkei and this has brought an approximate additional 215,000 souls under the care of the Department's administration.
On the administrative side a further 18 senior officers attended an intensive two week course in control and supervision conducted by the Training Division of the Public Service Commission last year. As a result of this course and the ones which preceded it in 1974 all the senior administrative officers in the department have been trained in supervision and control and are therefore able to implement the "in-service" training of all junior officers in the department. It is disappointing to have to once more report that there appears to have been little or no improvement in the position regarding acts of misconduct. Again the main causes are dishonesty and misuse of liqour. There were no less than 40 officers discharged during 1975 as a result of misconduct. This high number can be ascribed to a general tightening up of discipline throughout the Department following on the warnings issued by the Honourable the Chief Minister and members of the Cabinet who visited all officers during 197E4. I must again on behalf of the hon Minister warn that with the heavy responsibilities which lie ahead of us and with the eyes of the world upon us at this time no mercy will be shown to dishonest and irresponsible officials who, by their conduct, would besmirch our image.
The many new posts to which the hon Minister referred last year have now been created and the departmental establishment, apart from the Police and Prison Services, stood at 651 prescribed posts at 31 December 1975. Of these 43 or 6,6 % are still filled by seconded White officials. There are, however, still many vacancies especially in the senior and legal grades. This may be ascribed to a lack of properly qualified officials. This aspect is receiving the urgent attention of the Department but as it takes at least three years for a legal man to qualify there is no apparent early solution to the problem at this stage. This shortage of qualified personnel has also, of necessity, slowed down the rate of Africanisation of all posts in the Department. However, at nine of the 28 districts in the Transkei the entire staff now consists of Transkeian citizens (Qumbu Cala being the latest Additions), and at another thirteen only the head of the office is a seconded official. The new magistrate's office at Maluti has been completed and its radically new design has more than justified itself in increased control and productivity of personnel. New offices are under construction at Butterworth and Mount Fletcher. The present economic climate, however, has unfortunately curtailed plans for further new offices at present and the Department has decided, as part of its contribution to the anti-inflation campaign, to make do as far as is humanly possible with existing accommodation until financial conditions improve. As a means of alleviating the shortage of Staff in the clerical grades the Department last year recruited matriculated females to fill vacant junior posts. This step has proved exceptionally successful and I am pleased to state that there are at present more than 40 young ladies doing very good work in offices throughout the Department.
The High Court continues to fulfil its key role in the administration of Justice in the Transkei. Its burden has been an exceedingly heavy one and the pressure thereof has necessitated the appointment of a second judge, Mr Justice S. H. E. Wienand, as well as additional professional staff on the Attorney-General's establishment. Later in the year the functions of tre present Bantu Appeal and Divorce Courts will be taken over by the High Court. While we take farewell of the Appeal and Divorce Courts with perhaps a twinge of nostalgia we realise that as a nation we have grown to adulthood and are proud that in all matters involving superior court litigation we stand on equal footing with all nations. The High Court is actively following a policy of letting people see the administration of Justice at High Court level in action and to this end held sittings, apart from those in Umtata, at Butterworth, Idutywa, Lusikisiki and Mount Frere. It hopes to extend the ambit of the circuits during 1976 to Port St John's and Maluti.
During the year ended 31 December 1975, 146 officers of the Department received promotion to higher grade. Of these 29 were senior officers promoted to ranks ranging from Principal Clerk to Assistant Secretary. A number of these were young officers who have been promoted as a result of their having acquired legal qualification.
Here again there is scope for our young people to follow an interesting and rewarding carrer. Not only are they required to fill professional posts on the Attorney-General's staff but without Counsel to practise at the Bar the High Court cannot function.
There are at present 117 posts in the Department for legally qualified officers as well as many senior posts in the administrative side. The promotions to which I have just referred should give clear indication that there is ample scope and opportunity for any young man who is interested in improving his lot and who displays initiative and responsibility and, further, who is keen to accept the very worthwhile task of serving his own people.
The Regional Court continues to relieve the burdens of both the High and the Magistrates' Courts and has more than justified its re-establishment. With the addition of the districts of Glen Grey and Herschel to the Transkei it is more than likely that a second Regional Court will be established to cope with the enlarged
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scene. During 1975 the Court held regular sittings at Umtata, Butterworth, Engcobo, Mount Frere, Port St Johns, Matatiele and Umzimkulu. It travelled 15409, kilometers, and during 633 hours of Court sitting disposed of 363 cases, all of a serious nature. The following comparative statistics will indicate that the lagistrates' courts are still fully occupied with their primary function:
No. No. No. No.
of Criminal Cases of Reviewable Sentences of Admissions of Guilt of Civil Cases
1974 1975 1973 19 807 20 942 15 034 1 359 1 520 1681 10 856 12 500 12 654 3441 8 728 4.508
It is in the Police Branch that the greatest expansion has taken place during the past year. Since 1 April 1975 a further 24 Police Stations, including those in all the main towns have been taken over from the South African Police. This only leaves those stations at Glen Grey and Herschel and Port St John's to be transferred (which is likely in the near future) when every aspect of police work in the Transkei will be under the sole control of the Transkeian Police. To give some indication of this expansion the strength of the Force is now 779 units and 36 Police Stations are functioning. A Commercial Branch and Fingerprint and Photography Branch have been established as has been a Special Stock Theft unit which co-operates with the Lesotho Police on that border. During the year the following promotions at officer level were approved:
rank of Major and on 15 December 1975 became the Deputy Commissioner of Transkeian Prisons. Lieutenant Salukazana was promoted to Captain's rank while six members were promoted to Lieutenant and five to Warrant Officer. Major Keswa and three other members were awarded long service medals for 18 years' faithful service during 1975. Fourteen members of the Service underwent an advanced course for higher responsibility at the Baviaanspoort Prisons Training College and I would express our gratitude to the Republican Authorities for placing these facilities at our disposal. On 1 April 1976 the Wellington Prison t Umtata and the prisons at Lady Frere and Sterkspruit were transferred to this Department. We now control all prisons in the Transkei. In this instance also I wish to record the appreciation of the Government to the Commissioner of Prisons, his officers and men for their dedication in attempting to rehabilitate and return to society those unfortunates who fall foul of the law. The Africanisation of the liquor trade in the Transkei proceeds steadily, and at 31 December 1975 there were twenty hotels catering for the needs of Black people. As in the past the Liquor Board is guided chiefly by public demand coupled with the availability of exsisting facilities when dealing with applications for liquor licences. During the present session a bill has been introduced to amend the Transkei Liquor Act to ensure that after independence there will be no discrimination based on race in all matters pertaining to the liquor trade.
1 Captain to Major, 4 Lieutenants to Captain and 11 senior Sergeants to Lieutenant.
At sessions of this Assembly the Minister is regularly questioned in regard to licensing of fire-arms. At this stage all matters concerning fire-arms are, by law, dealt with by the Commissioner of the South African Police. Applications by Transkeian citizens are processed through the department and submitted to Pretoria for decision. I would like to explain for the information of honourable members that the main consideration taken into account when dealing with these applications is the necessity for the possession of a fire-arm. If real necessity cannot be established then the application has little hope of success. Some persons are under the impression that the nature of their work necessitates possession of a firearm. If this is so and the applicant is in employment it is the duty of his employer to apply for the firearm as it is the latter's interests which require the protection. It might interest the House to learn that during 1975 no less than 146 applications for firearms by Transkeian citizens were approved.
I report with regret the deaths of Sergeant E. T. Zali and Constable M. Nogemane in an accident while on official duty. I must once again express thanks to the South African Police for the training of our recruits at the Police Training College at Hammanskraal. It gives me pleasure to inform honourable members that at a medal parade on 25 February 1976 the Honourable the Chief Minister made the first presentation of Transkeian medals to 33 members of the Force for faithful service. I am sure that honourable members will also be proud to learn that on this parade seven members of the Transkeian PolicePolice were decorated with the medal for combating terrorrism in respect of services they performed on South Africa's borders while serving with the South African Police. During 1975, 22 949, cases were reported and investigated at Police Stations. Of these a total of 14 688 cases were sent to Court for trial.
I must report that virtually no advantage has been taken of the Legal Aid Scheme which was introduced during 19744. Although the scheme has been widely publicised by magistrates throughout the Transkei no interest has been shown therein and officials of the Department have been unable to determine the reluctance of the people to make use of this service.
Like other branches the Force has had its difficulties to contend with and has often had to make do with old and worn-out vehicles and equipment. I am aware that this has sometimes led to public complaint that the Police do not attend to complaints. I can give the assurance that everything possible is being done to equip our policemen with the best available vehicles and equipment within the limits of available funds. I give the assurance also that the police do their utmost to follow up all complaints lodged with them. However, members of the public must realise that a system of priorities has to be applied to complaints lodged, and they should not except that policemen investigating a murder or shopbreaking case should interrupt their investigations to answer a call to look into a minor assualt or petty theft.
Mr. Chairman, I think I hav satisfactorily explained all aspects of the workings of this Department. This infant of a few years back has now grown into a large and complicated machine, the smooth working of which is essential to the well-being of all our people. Such a large machine can only operate properly if it is properly maintained and proper maintenance today requires a great deal of money. The officials, in preparing the departmental estimates, have been mindful of today's economic climate and have avoided all unnecessary extravagances. Nevertheless our budget for the coming year is exceedingly higher than it was last year. I think I have today satisfied you that the funds we seek are an absolute necessity. Before I sit down, Mr Chairman, I may mention that after independence the department will be split into three separate departments - that is, Justice, Police and Prisons. However, these three departments will be under one Minister the Minister of Justice. Secondly, an office of Registerar of Deeds to be established here in Umtata will also fall under the Department of Justice. Before I move, Mr Chairman, you had better take a roll call. I now move that Vote No 2 be approved by this House.
I take this opportunity of paying tribute to the Commissioner, his officers and men for the sterling services they have rendered in preserving law and order during the past year. The Transkeian Prisons Service has also grown. During 1975 the prisons at Butterworth, Idutywa and Umzimkulu were transferred to my Department. As a result of these transfers and the staff increase at Headpuarters necessitated by the larger organisation the establishment of the Service has increased to 336 units. During the year Captain Keswa was promoted to the
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M/AGRICULTURE: I second, Mr Chairman. M/HEALTH : Mr Chairman, I want to state that it is most embarrasing when a Minister is delivering a policy statement of his department that hon members should be walking in and out like this. It is believed we have come here to represent our constituencies responsibly and the fact that it is Friday today does not mean that the members should not be in the House or that they should be walking up and down. It is under these circumstances that I move that you call the roll. M/AGRICULTURE : I second. MR K G NOTA: Mr Chairman, I think it would be in order if the Chairman asks the House if it agrees. D/CHAIRMAN : The Acting Minister of Justice moved there should be a roll call before I called for a seconder. He then made very scathing remarks to substantiate his contention and he was seconded . Does the House agree? Agreed to. The roll was called . M/HEALTH : I now move that Vote 2 be approved by this House. M/AGRICULTURE : I second, Mr Chairman . MR H H Zibi : Mr Chairman and hon members, perhaps before the hon member for Qumbu starts commenting I should request a point of explanation . Was the statement made by the hon the Chief Minister yesterday only in respect of his department or in respect of the other departments? I thought perhaps the policy speech would be read and then discussion deferred until Monday. I even have in mind the importance attached to this department, because it is one which seeks to protect the code of conduct for every individual in the Transkei. M/HEALTH : Mr Chairman, it was made clear yesterday by the hon the Chief Minister that in so far as only his department was concerned discussions were to be postponed until Tuesday. I know the hon member for Maluti is just trying to dodge about. He made it clear we should carry on with the other departments. I may even add that the hon the Leader of the Opposition asked the hon the Chief Minister the very same question yesterday, and the reply was in so far as the Vote of the Chief Minister is concerned. So we proceed . MR ZIBI : Mr Chairman, your ruling ,please. MR C Diko : Sit down. D/CHAIRMAN : Order. On page 272 of the Votes and proceedings for 6 May, Minute No. 222: "Committee of Supply - The Minister of Finance moved that the debate on his policy speech be postponed until Tuesday, 11 May 1976, and that the policy speeches of the other Ministers be proceeded with. " I hope hon members of the House will take the trouble to read their minutes. MR ZIBI : Sincere thanks for your explanation, Mr Chairman, but I would protect us from the uncouth element of this House. MR DIKO : Sit down, man. You are wasting time. MR ZIBI : I will continue to stand as long as I please. MR HD MLONYENI : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, this side of the House is ready with its speakers even if the Opposition dilly-dallies. We are ready to continue with the job and it is no use one black pot calling another pot blacker. (Laughter) D/CHAIRMAN : I am asking for comments. MR N JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I wish to make a few remarks in connection with the policy speech by the hon the Acting Minister of Justice . It is a lengthy statement and contains a lot of matter and although I have not read it thoroughly I will try to comment on a few of the points raised . The hon Minister stated there has been great expansion in this department and the number of police has been increased . This expansion has also taken place in the Prisons Section . As stated, we usually take all our complaints to the magistrate. The new districts of the Transkei, being Herschel and Glen Grey. have resulted in the addition of 651 posts in the Police Department, which means there is more work in that department. He mentioned that the entire staff in Qumbu and Cala are now Black. This all shows that some progress has been made. These are things which occur today. He also made mention of 40 female clerks who have been employed in the department . We commend this step on the part of the department . We note that 117 officers have gone to university to study law and that certain senior officials have left the employ of the department to take up other employment. In order to keep these officials in the department we would suggest that their salaries be increased . This is of great importance and it seems to be becoming a habit for government employees to leave the public service and join private establishments. The Government should do all in its power to prevent this. Certain young men are 247.
studying law at Fort Hare in order to take up posts in this department. We commend this highly but we entertain fears that these students will also leave the service of the Government because they will complain about the low salaries and will look for more lucrative jobs . Mention was made of misconduct on the part of certain employees by the use of intoxicants and also by the embezzlement of government money. It is our wish that all these young men who have been given responsible positions should behave themselves. The post of Attorney-General requires highly trained people and we shall only get such people from among our own sons if they take up law and work hard for promotion . It has also been mentioned that two young men have died in the course of duty and a word of condolence should be extended to their families. Mention was made of the award of medals by the Chief Minister to 33 units. It should be remembered that we have always had a complaint about the police vans which do not come to our administrative areas when called upon to do so. The hon Minister mentioned that there is a shortage of these vehicles but we hope he will see that something is done about this lack . There is a great deal of crime in the administrative areas and it is therefore necessary that these vans should be made available so that the complainants should receive assistance.
M/HEALTH: That point has been covered in the speech. MR JAFTA: The reason why I repeat this point is because it is of great importance . Most of the people complain that whenever they call upon the police they receive no response because of the lack of vans . It is fitting that we should thank the police, particularly those who are at the top, for the work they have performed , and we should also thank the white police who are working with us. We are grateful to the black police who have shown that they can manage this work. The hon Minister mentioned that firearm licences are issued only after investigation into the application . It is correct that such investigations should be made in regard to the issue of licences, but there are a number of people who should be granted these licences. Those are the remarks I wished to make, Mr Chairman. MR C DIKO: Mr Chairman and hon members , I stand up to support this policy speech, particularly in so far as it is very frank. Your policy speech admits what has failed and your policy speech gives concrete facts. Now, I want to read one of the most important facts which has been revealed: "No less than 48 officers, most of whom could be ill spared, resigned last year to take up more profitable employment. " Now, I have repeatedly warned this House that we must have equal pay for equal work and equal qualifications. What is the purpose in sending a man to Fort Hare ? He gets a scholarship from this Government, goes to Fort Hare and when he comes back he is not paid what is paid to his white counterpart in the Transkei. No magistrate will tolerate a subservient salary to a man who is less qualified educationally than himself. So now, while I say I support the remarks made by the policy statement, I entreat and request this Government : Let us be sensible, let us be reasonable, let us pay men for their work. It is useless giving scholarships to these people if when they come back and when they qualify we are not going to pay them what they are qualified for. To whom am I speaking? I don't know whether it is the Cabinet or the people concerned behind the Cabinet, but they will understand. You see, the hon Minister says they are taking up more profitable jobs. Why should the government servant be attracted by some other more profitable job when the Government is there to look after its servants ? Now, the whole point I want to emphasize to this House is this : It is discriminatory pay. Why discriminate? You must pay a black man what you pay a white man. Their needs are the same. Human needs are the same. We pay the same for petrol ; we pay the same for food and clothing; we pay the same for this and that, and why should this Transkei of ours have differential pay? (Interjections) I am not talking about wives. We are talking about politics now. What I want to emphasize to the department concerned , Mr Chairman , is that we are highly disappointed and displeased by this high figure . I know of small boys who have been sent to Fort Hare by this department. One of them has now resigned and is working with the attorneys here. How do you like that ? We cannot afford to train men and because we can ill afford to pay them these men run away from the department. So I wish the Transkeian Government to note this. You see, unfortunately there is always that slave mentality to those in high office . That man has always accepted inferiority from the white man. Now, they don't realise that this idea of seconded officials is just a plot. The money
paid to the seconded white official is from Pretoria and the money paid to the black magistrate and to the secretary is from Pretoria. Mr Minister and hon members , that is an important point. These magistrates of the districts, apart from the low salary they are paid, must pay a high rental on the buildings and houses they occupy. I was told it is in the vicinity of 10 % and these gentlemen are paid meagre salaries and at the same time much of the money is taken away from them. So the Government must be sympathetic and sensible and reasonable in handling the employees ofthe Transkei , and they must pay them adequate salaries. I am passing on from that. There is also an unfortunate remark here. Now, if I don't see it I will just speak to it as I saw it. You say about 40 men have been discharged. Now, the policy statement does not say on what grounds they were discharged, but it says " Misconduct " which may imply stealing or drunkenness. M/HEALTH : Do you mean to say we should single out each and every case? MR DIKO: No, I accept "Misconduct" but I want to comment on it. Now, this misconduct is fundamentally because of the low salary. These young men who are underpaid cannot afford to pay for the luxury of the position they hold, so they decide to augment by stealing from the Government to make up the salary. (Laughter) This Government must realise these salaries must be increased. Now to come to the judges. In Tabankulu three young men, after drinking to their satisfaction , deliberately let their stock graze on the field of a subheadman. (Laughter) When this subheadman impounds this stock they go to his place and take the stock by force and butcher him into pieces. Now, your judge at Mount Frere (and I was very disappointed in this) convicts these scoundrels, these murderers, only to two years. Now what sense of justice have these judges in their minds ? This scoundrel murders a man for his mealies, so that when the man says he must pay he just kills him mercilessly . So we are not satisfied in Mount Frere with the way the judges are conducting cases there. Yes, even these Mbombelas who, after murdering people, come before these judges and are let free. So it is high time if the European law cannot be applied in the proper way that the regional authorities must take over. Let us change the law . (Laughter and interjections) We cannot have people murdering other people and getting away with it, so the law must be changed because as far as I am concerned the regional authorities will know what to do, because the judge has done a silly thing allowing that man to go free, leaving orphans, leaving widows. Now I come to the police force. A motion here which is still under discussion , calls for a mobile police unit with helicopter to deal specifically with the thieving of our stock. I am pleased to say at Matatiele you already have a special unit to deal with thieving , but that, as you have said, is for Maluti and Matatiele. We want a special mobile force to assist the police in the districts all over the Transkei when this stock thieving takes place and whenever they are called upon. Now, what about this firearm business ? I have applied for a short-gun for over three years and I have not got it. (Laughter) No reason is stated, and I say I am qualified for a short-gun. I have sheep and other stock and everything, and I want to deal with these animals who prey on my stock. The Republican Government always takes too long a time to investigate a complaint. You say 146 licences have been given, but that is nothing. You have not told us the number of people who applied and did not get. Firearms are absolutely essential. Shopkeepers, headmen and stock owners need to be given firearms when they need them. If they are given firearms and if they are going to shoot each other we will see to it after that. (Laughter) We won't treat them as the judges do. I think I must sit down, but before I sit down I will say I am disappointed that the hon Minister who read this policy statement did not mention the letter I wrote to the Department of Justice. Last year I complained in this House of the inhuman way the white police were handling people and after that I was very pleased, and I am pleased to report to this House that ever since the black police in Tabankulu area - particularly Sergeant Madyibi - were sent there the Mbombelas know their place. (Laughter) I am very pleased and not only myself, but everybody in Tabankulu is pleased . We have had meeting after meeting and they say: Please tell the Government we are now able to sleep in our houses. That is a high recommendation for Sergeant Madyibi and we wish every other policeman who takes up that position will see to the peace and discipline of the Transkei. Now, Sir, I will tell you and this House that dipping tanks in that area were closed . For five years no dipping was done and people are now dipping because of the activities of the black police there. I am pleased 248 .
to tell you, and the people of Tabankulu are pleased for me to tell you, that the five schools which were closed up are now open, and this is thanks to Sergeant Madyibi and the black police there. We now have 5 000 children at school there and the people say: God be with you, Sergeant Madyibi and Cromwell Diko. (Laughter) Yes, they know how many times I have been to Umtata to see the Secretary and to see the Minister who is now loafing somewhere in Europe and I got him to work. (Laughter) MR H H ZIBI: Mr Chairman and hon members, it is now to be regretted that when we are on the verge of graduating into independence the incidence of crime in the Transkei generally should be as alarming as it is. I should first of all comment on the police work, Mr Chairman. Crime occurs in the various administrative areas of the Transkei and the powers that be in those administrative areas accordingly report to the police station. I know this is an old complaint but it still persists, that after reporting that such-and-such a crime has been committed in such an area you are told there is no transport. Even cases as serious as arson, cases as serious as murder, cases as serious as stock theft cannot be attended to for lack of transport. Please remember that the policeman is a peace officer and a custodian, shall I say, or the moral code of the people of the Transkei. Some are eventually brought before the magistrate after thorough investigation, perhaps, by the police. As the last speaker has pointed out, there are cases you regard as cases of cold-blooded murder reduced to culpable homicide, and in certain cases reduced to assault. D/CHAIRMAN: Hon members, a technical point has arisen here and I feel before hon members commit the same mistake I should call upon the hon member for Tabankulu to withdraw his remark in relation to the remarks he made in respect of judges. He should turn to rule 44 (1 ) of the rules of the House where he will find this sort of thing is forbidden. The conduct of a Judge of the Supreme Court or other persons performing judicial functions shall not be referred to or reflected upon. MR C DIKO : Mr Chairman, it is the policy speech which refers to judges. I am speaking in accordance with my policy speech before me. It refers to judges. M/HEALTH : Mr Chairman and hon members, I think the point that the Chairman is trying to bring forward is that whilst we appreciate the way you spoke about the judges you said these judges are silly. MR DIKO: I see. Mr Chairman, I withdraw that. MR ZIBI : To resume, Mr Chairman. Then the case is brought before the magistrate. Now, with criminal cases, say it is a case of murder to start off with. At the level of the preparatory examination the culprit employs a lawyer. Meanwhile the State makes use of a constable to conduct the prosecution. More often than not a lawyer, if he be a good lawyer, generally gets away with the case, as against the constable prosecuting for the State. In certain cases you find that the prosecutor is able to stand on his own and in the end when the magistrate is expected to give a decision - I well, say in the case of stock theft, he lets go a culprit to the disadvantage of this policeman who had taken the trouble to investigate such a case. The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on Vote 2 of the Appropriation Bill, Department of Justice, was resumed . MR H H ZIBI : Mr Chairman and hon members, before I pass on to the next phase of this all-important policy speech before the House, it is my ardent wish to stress on the low standard of prosecution in the Transkei to the powers that be, because this virtually affects the court decisions adversely, and I come now to the presiding officers on the bench. I have listened to cases of stock theft where a policeman - comes out of the investigating officer court complaining that these decisions are very discouraging. Where with ordinary laymen such as we are, we perceive that this should have been the decision, yet the thief is given the benefit of the doubt and the claimants are allowed to have back their livestock . You just don't know where you are with a decision like that. Another practice that is becoming common in the administrative areas and which may eventually cause, shall I say, universal trouble in the particular area concerned, is that A murders B and is accordingly arrested . He is kept in custody for hardly a fortnight. He is back in the same area and one just wonders whether investigations by that time will have been made with Pretoria, perhaps, to find out about the past criminal record of this particular individual. He gets back to the administrative area and freely mixes with the people there, with the arrogant attitude that he committed such a murder and is back again in the community. It only means that the chief, headman and subheadman must do all they can
ment. There is always a complaint about the low output and labour instability among the personnel, but with such training as these officials are obtaining we can be assured of a stable and efficient personnel. Another point of appreciation is promotion within the establishment. That serves as an encouragement in itself, when any individual serving in a certain rank within a certain period of years finds himself promoted to a higher grade. We appreciate this point very much. The final point I want to raise is the Africanization of the liquor trade. I am sure, Mr Chairman and hon members, that throughout the Transkei people know how difficult the situation has been in relation to the black man. Particularly after the pronouncement of the policy of separate development there were those people who stood aloof. Perhaps there were people who entertained doubts as to the implementation of that policy. This question of Africanization of the liquor trade is one aspect of the implementation, and another point of appreciation indeed. Mr Chairman and hon members, thank you very much . MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR H H ZIBI : Mr Chairman and hon members, I still feel that I was very much right when I commented on the low standards of prosecution in this country. The hon member who has just sat down and who is from my own region is perhaps aware that we used to take a lot of Std 6 fellows into the police force - or even lower than Std 6. It is some of those fellows who hold a Std 6 certificate who are trained in prosecution. If you place such a man against a qualified lawyer in a legal battle, what results do you expect? I am happy and I appreciate the effort put in by the Department of Justice towards the training of our prosecutors. Now, let us go to the clerks in the magistrates' offices that is, the civil servants. Who can doubt the raw deal accorded to all and sundry who come to the magistrate's office for service by the clerks employed by that department in those offices ? Their attitude to the people makes the job of supervision for whoever is in charge of them very difficult. The complaint is universal. You take a man to clerk A and say he has come to the office for this or that. Clerk A takes him to another corner and whilst you are busy with someone else the clerk tells this man to go home he can only deal with him tomorrow. When you have finished with clerk B you go back to check up on what is happening with clerk A, who tells you that the man you left with him was in a great hurry and said he would come back another day. Then there is the office which handles labour in the magistrate's office . Who does not know that recruits going up to the industrial areas in the cities are told : You must first do something. M/HEALTH : What are you going to say when you discuss Interior? MR ZIBI : One thing I appreciate very much is the legal aid scheme which has been brought into being in the Transkei. I believe the people of the Transkei mostly are not aware of the presence of such a privilege, because I am almost sure they would have made full use of it. MR HD MLONYENI : You were told about it last year. MR ZIBI : We were told not the people. MR MLONYENI : Well, you must tell the people. Who else is going to tell them?
to suppress whatever feelings might be aroused as a result of this man being present in the area where he had committed murder, because the natural inclination of any human being is to avenge the death of his own kith and kin. I don't know at what stage in the states that practise this kind of thing known as public hanging . . MR HD MLONYENI : Do you want that in the Transkei? Mr Zibi : I don't know whether that will deter the number ofmurder cases taking place in the Transkei . I am reminded of the cases of murder that took place in the district of Mqanduli not so long ago. Now, when it comes to the question of firearms there are people who really deserve to have firearms, their conduct being such that they deserve to own these firearms M/HEALTH : Hence the 146 licences. but then I would like to know what MR ZIBI : happens if, when I am given a firearm by the department, I am inclined to use it promiscuously. I get to a beerdrink and I start intimidating the people and saying that I own and who can say what? What is the attitude of this the department in such a case ? I go further and now I get to the police force. This is in respect of the police where a policeman will shoot indiscriminately at a person when, to the layman, there was practically no need for such shooting. I would be quoting recent incidents, but unfortunately I am aware that the cases I have in mind are yet sub judice. M/HEALTH: In other words, you do agree that action is being taken about such people ? MR ZIBI: Yes, I do, whatever the results. There are, of course, cases where I also feel if I had been a policeman I would have opened fire deservedly and justifiably. MR P S KAKUDI : Mr Chairman and hon members, my maiden speech will not involve a lot of substance, perhaps on account of that slight fear of audience , I do not know. (Laughter) However, before I get to the real gist of what I am going to say this afternoon I have to touch on a few points which I collected from the Opposition benches. The last speaker makes mention of low standards of prosecution in courts. Perhaps it will be essential that I apply a very tactful refutation of this. Well, it should be tactful really, because I am entertaining some sympathy for the speaker because perhaps he cannot delve deeply into all the intricacies of prosecution in our legal courts. Nevertheless I will only give him one point which should, of course, be a warming or, shall I say, advice . He has stepped on a very dangerous point and I hope he understands that. He has also made mention of the question of acquisition of firearms and the indiscriminate use of such acquired firearms . Well, I would say in that case surely in a government like ours such people as acquire firearms legally are guarded by law as to usage. MR H H ZIBI : They may break the law. MR KAKUDI : Well, the hon member is supposed to have all the knowledge of that. Again, he has set foot on perhaps through ignorance, I very dangerous ground cannot tell, really. (Laughter) In actual fact I have a reason today for making my maiden speech, mainly to pinpoint a not few points which are of appreciation on my part only mine, I suppose, but say all the hon members on this side of the House. In the policy speech of the Department ofJustice mention was made of the training of our Transkei police at Hammanskraal, which is a depot of the South African Government. Now here I see a standard of friendship between the two Governments a point to be appreciated by any reasonable Transkeian. This is a fulfilment - actually, I may say the real implementation of the policy of the South African Government whereby the South African Government, according to the Promotion of Selfgovernment Act of 1959, promised to see to the growth of the Transkeian Government and all the other Homeland Governments. We all agree, and of course we know, that the police force is essential to any government. Without the police force that Government and its people are in danger. Of course, we are aware that such knowledge as is acquired by our Transkei police in the South African depot at Hammanskraal is to be used in the training of our new recruits time and again. That is a real indication of the growth of this Government, which is really heading towards independence now. Another point of appreciation, Mr Chairman and hon members, is the question of the development and intensive training within the Public Service Commission of the Transkei. That in itself is sufficient to instil all confidence in the people of the Transkei, especially now that they are heading towards independence. Í will not detail each and every point important to the training of personnel, but we know in all concerns -- it may be an industry or a government - trained personnel is a require-
MR ZIBI : Now, there was a comment on the award of medals for faithful service to these men who were on the border to guard against terrorism. This we very much appreciate, Sir, because terrorism is no method acceptable in any civilized country of settling international differences. Then again, the promotions given to our policemen are much appreciated. A few days ago we discussed a motion here urging that promotions not be delayed by this department. People who merit it should be promoted . The exodus of employees from the Department of Justice going out to private enterprise, going to industrial employment, can only be halted by way of improving their salaries . As much as we appreciate the efforts made by the department in sending some of our young men to Fort Hare to further their studies, we would as much appreciate what could be done towards improving their salaries. The introduction of young girls into the service is also appreciated, because some of them (or perhaps all, I don't know) have not yet got into the one vice of drink. (Interjections) And if ever there is any other vice it is after hours. (Laughter) Now, with regard to liquor licences, from a money-making point of view it is a very good thing to encourage this kind of thing, but from a moral point of view if I had my way I would have it moderated . What happens inside this House at times as a result of what we are talking about ...! However, it is because we really have to appreciate the fact that at least the department is doing all in its power to meet the applicants for these licences . The last point, Mr Chairman, is merely that we welcome the new Blacks in Mount
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Fletcher and at Maluti. On the whole this policy statement is really a commendable piece of written work. Our earnest prayer to the powers that be is that all the good intentions in this policy speech should be implemented and we shall thank you again .
The debate was adjourned. House resumed
The D/Chairman reported progress. M/HEALTH : Mr Chairman , as you are aware that the Opposition seems to be tongue-tied because their legal man is not here today , I feel it my duty to move that we adjourn in order to do justice to this Vote of the Department of Justice. M/AGRICULTURE : I second. Agreed to. CHAIRMAN : Hon members, it was with disgust that I saw the emptiness of the House even before the hon the Minister of Health suggested that there should be a roll call. The hon members of this House are reminded of the fact that they are the responsible leaders of this, our nation. Most of the hon members of the House were basking in the sun when the roll was called. It is really not a good thing for stricter measures to be applied , rather than leave it to the sense of responsibility of members. The House is even half empty now and most of the members I met in the streets. Hon members are implored to please obey the disciplinary rules of this Assembly. Thank you. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 10 May 1976. MONDAY 10 MAY 1976
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. APPROPRIATION BILL :
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I move that this House sits in committee in order to discuss the Appropriation Bill . M/AGRICULTURE : I second . Agreed to. House in Committee Thedebate on Vote 2, Department of Justice , was resumed . MR M P LUDIDI : Mr Chairman and hon members, the maturity of a State can be measured by the success of its judicial machinery. I am glad to say to this House this morning that the work of the Department of Justice is a milestone towards internal security. This department, since take-over from the Whites , has displayed very well that the maintenance of peace and order is the cornerstone of the development of the nation towards statehood. The standard of work of the Transkei police is indeed commendable. The figures of cases listed in the policy speech show this very well. The criminal cases, instead of increasing, are decreasing. In 1974 there were 20 942 cases and in 1975 there were 15 034. I think this state of affairs may be attributed to the work of the Justices in the first place. The Honourable Chief Justice Munnik is, to my awareness, a very upright figure, an awesome personality and not a respecter of persons. At street corners and at beerdrinking gatherings there is a general saying: Take care of Mr Munnik's decisions. From this I deduce that his sentences go home to would-be criminals. On the other hand, Mr Chairman, the police too deserve more than words can express. Their work under Major Cwele is not noticeable in Tabankulu only but in the rest of Pondoland . Faction fights have been eradicated in that area to a great extent. As I have said, and as has the hon member for Tabankulu proved to this House, their work was noticeable in Pondoland. I have even heard the local Whites in Umtata making remarks with regard to the work of the Transkei police. We have read their remarks in the local Press too. We all hope that we will enter into independence, both black Transkeians as well as those Whites who will opt for Transkeian citizenship, fully secure in the hands of the Transkei police. However, Mr Chairman, I wish to raise a few points for the consideration of the hon the Minister of Justice. There is unconfirmed information that the sittings of the High Court in Lusikisiki no longer take place because of some unpleasant circumstances to the disadvantage of the Judge. If this is so, Sir, we request the 250.
department to look into this matter. Another matter, Mr Chairman, I want to raise is that which refers to police registration marks. Police cars should be easily identified . XG marks or registration marks do not identify police vehicles, as All Transkeian Government vehicles bear the same XG mark. Even in the Republic, police vehicles can be easily identified by the mark "SAP". They are not grouped under GG. There is general dissatisfaction in the outstations, Mr Chairman , and people are complaining about the manner in which the police deal with the public. I will not go deeply into this because it has been raised by former speakers, but we all hope that the discipline that is prevalent in the head office in Umtata will more outwards to the outstations. There is a noticeable need for possession of firearms, although there is a point in the possession of firearms by members of the public. It must, however, not be regarded as a sine qua non for existence. The possession of firearms by members of the public must not undermine the principles of State security. It must be borne in mind that one of the duties of the police is the protection of individuals. The day individuals or members of the public take upon themselves their protection and every Tom, Dick and Harry possesses a firearm is the day State security will be exposed to abuse. With the relaxation of disarmament measures I feel that looting, violence and crime will be on the increase. Well, hon members need to be referred to the United States of America for a situation like this. My point to the department is that though private individuals should be given firearms, the issue of firearms should not be done indiscriminately. Mr Chairman, with those few words I support the policy speech of the hon the Minister of Justice. MR P N NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to make a few remarks on this policy speech because something is being said about people who are supposed to be maintianing peace and order, but they are altogether irresponsible. They are not keeping law and order. (Interjections) The intention of keeping the peace is that they should just arrest a person but should never assault anyone even if that person is drunk, but what we have seen outside here is the police assaulting people indiscriminately and even going to the extent of assaulting them in buses. I will not mention names, because these cases are still being heard . M/JUSTICE : Why do you have to say something about them when you do not know the circumstances ? MR NKOSIYANE : Even this very last Friday in the presence of a constable boys were fighting and stabbing one another. The police took no action and did not even attempt to telephone . What we know is that if a policeman is all by himself and people are fighting, people will generally come to the assistance of the policeman in stopping the fight. The present speaker is a man who was some time back assaulted by the police in Johannesburg. At the time I was a soldier. (Laughter) It was in a charge office and I was stopping people from assaulting a certain person. They made this assault on a man, and after I had been so assaulted by the police I went to see a doctor and I was X-rayed. Because I am a man I was determined to show them my worth . (Laughter) As I am now addressing this House there are certain people who are in pain as a result of being assaulted by the police. These policemen should be warned. They should be given a warning that they must not shoot indiscriminately at people. Immediately the police hold up a man in a vehicle they take the opportunity to fire at him with their weapons. Any man who performs work as a constable, even if he is employed by the municipality, requires to be lectured so that he does not use firearms indiscriminately . This is something we learnt when we were still young - that if a policeman is present at some trouble he first fires a shot at the ground in order that his presence should be realised, but the police now shoot to kill instead of shooting at the person s feet. (Laughter) These police should be instructed so that whenever a person is running away from them they should just shoot to disable him so that he cannot escape. These police should be taught in their lectures to see to the protection of people, as it is their duty to protect people. I am surprised there are no police at the bus-stops where there are crowds of people and where tsotsis teem and rob people of their money. Even at the Umtata bus rank there are no police to watch out for these tsotsis. A request is made that these policemen should do their duty. Though we should speak, we are not prepared to do so because the Government has not seen to it that there are vehicles in these police stations. I believe all the police vans were taken away by the white police when they left. Some of these vans are just derelicts kept at the police station . They are never taken for repair, but we are just told there are no vans. I come from Mqa-
nduli and at the police station there, there is a van which has not been in use I think for two months, and then we are told that the police in Mqanduli have no van and they have had to go and borrow one. The Government is aware of the fact that Mqanduli is a very busy station. None of the police stations have vans and the Government must order these vans so that the police can do their work. M/JUSTICE: A question please, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman and hon members, the hon member did not finish his statement to the effect that Mqanduli is very busy, and I think this House would like to know - busy doing what? MR NKOSIYANE : At Mqanduli there are a lot of boys and it has for a long time and repeatedly been a request that the Government should see to the circumcision of these boys, or otherwise that their parents should be told to have their boys circumcised. (Laughter) Last month I was with the magistrate of Elliotdale and he had gone to ask these boys to be circumcised, but the boys were never circumcised. At that place many people were assaulted and injured for no reason at all. It was at a school near Elliotdale. The people fled as a result of those assaults and when they went to the police at Elliotdale they were referred to the police at Mqanduli. I do not see why there should be a sort of apartheid dividing these police stations. There is something disturbing taking place in Mqanduli where people are taking things belonging to other people. I do not know who those people are. Even during the last session of this House we made a request that the police should patrol that district, but nothing was ever done. If the police would patrol the roads even once a night, no-one having stolen stock would drive that stock on those roads. If the police patrolled the boys would not carry battle-axes for fear of the police. At Mqanduli village those people who keep stock suffer from theft which is carried on to a great extent there. It is for that reason we request that lights should be provided in Mqanduli. (Laughter) M/JUSTICE: Lights ? MR NKOSIYANE : Yes, electricity should be provided. M/JUSTICE: What has that to do with the police? MR NKOSIYANE: So that the police should see the thieves. (Laughter) They should be in a position to see who steals. Now I am going to make some other remarks. In this very House we applied for certain goods sheds to be erected. Our request was passed by this House but no action has been taken. M/JUSTICE: And what has that to do with the police? MR NKOSIYANE : Now the buses carrying fencing and other things for people and it is just dumped down anywhere and stolen. Mr M E DEKEDA : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, I would inform the hon member for Mqanduli that we are now discussing the policy speech of the hon the Minister of Justice. I think we will take two weeks on this if we are going to divert as the hon member is doing. This has nothing to do with the Department of Justice. MR J M DUMALISILE : Keep quiet. Goods are stolen and that is a police matter. D/CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Carry on. MR NKOSIYANE : I was asked by this House to enumerate things which happen in Mqanduli. (Laughter) I don t know what that hon member wants me to say. D/CHAIRMAN: Will you please stick to the subject under discussion. MR NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman, I am sticking to the subject, but this is what happens when you say something. I will now take my seat. MR S P BHURALI : Mr Chairman and hon members, it is a pity that we have to keep on reminding the hon members of the Opposition to be thankful. It does not cost a lot to say "Thank you ' . It is one of the simplest phrases in English and it goes a long way. We have to bear in mind that any young State has difficulties . We have also to bear in mind that it is our duty to assist towards the difficulties of people in trouble. We are called upon in this House to render responsible services to the State of the Transkei. I am not going to waste my time dealing with minor issues but will always confine myself to what is important to the House and to the country. Difficulties have been expressed as far as the administration of the Police Department regarding staff, etc, is concerned. It is no easy task that within a short space of time we should lose almost 48 officers and find it difficult to have these people replaced . This calls for a responsible approach. We have to give thanks to the Republican Government for the training facilities and the officers who are seconded for all the good work they are doing for us. We have to encourage our Government to have more bursaries for the training of Africans to take these posts . We have to encourage our
children to be very proud of being a policeman and in charge of justice in this country. The police force is the first line of defence in any democratic society. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR BHURALI : Their work is never an easy task. When they take a tough line you will always find people going against the police. You have had instances of faction fights in the Transkei, but I am happy to say that since Africans took over there is a drastic reduction in this type of thing. I only hope the hon member of Mqanduli is not busy breeding faction fights in his district . You have heard of dagga dealings. We are happy again to see there has been a drastic reduction of this traffic. Delinquency in the urban areas is now being well attended to. Stock thieving in these areas is also being well attended to. I do not claim this work to be enough. We still expect better service from our police and they are willing to do so. An added responsibility is now facing the police with the additions of the districts of Herschel and Glen Grey. I wish here to make a special request that the duties formerly rendered by the Republican police should please be maintained, more especially in matters of patrolling border posts in the district of Herschel and along the other borders which we know to be the borders between Maluti and Lesotho. Cases of stock thieving have been reported along these borders and it is our hope that with the maintenance of these duties, cattle-stealing will be reduced. Let us learn to co-operate with the police. In co-operating with the police let us bring suggestions to our headmen and chiefs. What surprises me is that people in the locality know who the stock thieves are in their locality, but they will not cooperate with the police. They will expect the police to trace the thieves themselves and it is very easy to speak ill of a policeman. There will come a time when we will tell the police to shoot first and ask questions afterwards. (Laughter) We are not going to look at your face because you are handsome. We are not going to connive with you. You will have to respect law and order, but you are not going to steal our cattle. It is a bad thing that I am a stock owner, because my life is at risk from these thieves. I keep stock and I know I am doing so at risk because of these thieves. They carry firearms with the shopkeepers who are confederates of these thieves. A man steals a sheep to eat, but they don't steal now to eat - they steal to trade. It is another way of reducing the wealth of the Transkei and we should be aware of this. Now when you get to a butcher you say: Here is an ox, baas. He says: Does it talk ? If you say it talks then it fetches a very low price because it talks. (Laughter) It is because you have spent nothing that the price is low. You must sell it at any price because the butcher knows how you obtained it. When you consider the Transkei, we have one of the most beautiful pieces of land in South Africa and that cannot be contended. I have just spent a weekend in Pondoland and I can assure you you have here a country which can be the granary of our country. We can get all our beef from this area; we can get all our pigs in this area; we can have all our mutton and other requirements from this area. Are we not going to protect this area ? Thieves are everywhere. It is your duty to smell out the thief, not so much that of the police. We must encourage people not to steal. We must teach people the dignity of hard work. They must respect the possessions of their fellowmen. We cannot take for granted that because the thieves steal we must just leave them to carry on with it. The safest resource of a State is always a sense of duty. We are discouraging the people who are going to buy pedigree stock for better produce and better profit. There are many men who want to go dairy-farming or beef-farming . Do we encourage them when we allow people to steal their stock ? Do we encourage people to buy expensive bulls at R20 000, only to have them stolen ? That wonderful pedigree beast will be removed overnight. Note that that is detrimental to our future. The time will come when we tell the police to ask no questions, but to shoot first. We are tired of stock thieving. This is very serious, hon members, and we must retain a serious regard of this whole situation. We cannot afford to lose stock to other nations. You would be surprised to find how many thieves we have in the Transkei and the losses sustained by thieving in the Transkei . I must humbly beg all members of this House to support the good efforts of the police and I must repeat myself again in saying we are going to apply harsher measures to bring these thieves to book. D/CHAIRMAN : Hon members, I think you will agree with me when I say this Vote has been thoroughly canvassed and if we allow further speakers on this Vote we will actually be calling for repetition . In the circumstances I shall now call upon the hon Minister to reply. 251 .
M/HEALTH : Mr Chairman, having acted so well in the absence of the hon the Minister of Justice (Laughter) I believe it is my duty now to finally hand over to him and ask him to reply, because I am sure hon members would like to hear him speak on his Vote. M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman and hon members, in order to disabuse those hon members who might start saying that self-praise is no recommendation, I wish to crave your indulgence, Sir, to formally thank my colleague, the hon the Minister of Health for having handled my policy vote so well during my absence abroad, and further to thank the hon members for having dealt with this Vote in such a calm atmosphere, judging from what I have seen this morning. I feel, however, that there is hardly any matter which calls for a reply from me. Since I came in this morning and listened to one hon member on the opposite benches, if his statements are a continuation of a confusion which might have existed when this policy speech was started, then there was confusion worse confounded . (Laughter) It is true that the work of the police, in fact the world over, is a very thankless job. The policy statement of the Department of Justice is more often than not resolved into a discussion of the activities of the police -- to such an extent that if one sits down and listens one gets lost as to what is really expected of members of the police force. The people at Mqanduli leave old boys without circumcising them until they are 50 years old, until they have wives, and they expect the police to go there and gather those old boys to circumcise them. (Laughter) The magistrate at Elliotdale is reported to have gone out to one of the administrative areas and actually pleaded with the people of that area to circumcise these old boys. MR L.L MGUDLWA : Do away with this circumcision. M/JUSTICE: Some of them are as old as you are, Mr Mgudlwa. (Laughter) Now, he expects the police to see to the circumcision of these people. The hon member also expects the police to be planted all over Mqanduli because of the lawlessness of Mqanduli which he himself should see is brought to a halt. The Xhosa saying is that when there is trouble it is often near home. It is your duty in Mqanduli firstly to see that boys are circumcised while they are still young. (Interjections) There will be a time when we shall even doubt whether some of the men in Mqanduli are circumcised. (Laughter) There was a remark made with regard to the stoppage of the circuit courts at Lusikisiki. The speaker fortunately said " on account of certain circumstances". I am glad to say that those circumstances have now abated and that perhaps before the end of the year the circuit court will be resumed at Lusikisiki. There is a saying that fools will rush in where angels fear to tread. I think some of the hon members of this House must be glad that they enjoy the immunity of this House with regard to the statements they make. It is contempt of court to comment adversely on the findings of any judicial officer, for which you can be criminally charged . Judicial officers are empowered to have absolute discretion over the cases they try. A man may kill another man , he may be arrested, tried and convicted and sentenced to a certain sentence. Another man may also kill another and he may be tried, but the circumstances of the killing will be such that those two persons may not be sentenced to the same sentence. I do not know if some hon members know that there is what is known as justifiable killing. Now, are we going to say, if a man is acquitted because it has been found by the court that he was justified in killing and another man is sentenced to death for the same crime, that the courts are unfair when we do not know what circumstances prevailed ? We must leave the trial of cases to the judicature. There are magistrates, there are prosecutors, there are attorneys. They are all involved in that system to see that Justice is done. Now, I wonder ifthe hon gentleman really appreciate the inflationary period through which the whole country is going at the present moment? They speak of salaries and what not. The Government is aware of that, but where is the Government going to get the money? Now please, hon members, those who talk about money, salaries and so forth must stand up in this House and move that the taxes of the people must be raised to so much per year, because that is the only way now in which we can get money, and see whether that hon member will come back to this House to say the same thing next year. (Laughter) Mr L L MGUDLWA: Why is there no money? M/JUSTICE: We haven't the money because you get all the money to which you are not entitled, sitting here and getting your allowance at the end of the month. Please just take R10 a month and give the rest to other people and stop talking, talking, talking. MR MGUDLWA: How much are you going to give ? M/JUSTICE: I am not going to give because I do not
say the salaries must be raised . You must give because you say the salaries must be increased . Mr Chairman, I think there is hardly anything more to be said here, unless I start quibbling, and where I have come from there is no quibbling -there is work, work, work all the time . Thank you, Mr Chairman, and I therefore move that the Vote be passed. M/HEALTH : I second, Mr Chairman. The sum of R6 332 000 in respect of Vote 2, Department of Justice, was passed to stand part of the Schedule. M/HEALTH : Mr Chairman, we have just been informed that the Department of Education is holding a meeting somewhere. It appears we can therefore not pass on to that Vote and in view of the fact that the Department of the Interior, which comes next, is not ready owing to the fact that it was not anticipated it would come up today, I move that you report progress so as to be in a position to deal with the next item and then some time this afternoon, at about 2.30 I believe, the hon the Minister of the Interior will be ready with her policy speech. If not, we shall deal with the next item. I therefore move that you report progress . M/AGRICULTURE : I second. Agreed to. House resumed The D/Chairman reported progress.
ROAD TRAFFIC AMENDMENT BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE M/ROADS : Mr Chairman, I move that the House converts itself into committee. M/AGRICULTURE : I second. Agreed to. House in Committee. The debate was resumed. On Clause 7.
MR H H ZIBI : Mr Chairman, may we have some motivation on subsections (2) and (3). M/ROADS: Mr Chairman, the clause in question deals with the specimen of blood which is taken when a driver has been apprehended for drunken driving. It does away with the specific part of the body from which a specimen of blood may be taken. Research work has shown that it is immaterial whether a specimen of blood is taken from the head or arm or small toe of the person. Mr Chairman, in view of the fear that has been expressed in this House that one might be detained when drinking an alcoholcontaining beverage, I must quote from the book, Forensic Medicine, by Gordon & Shapiro: "When an alcoholcontaining beverage is drunk, alcohol can be absorbed directly into the bloodstream from the stomach, expecially if this organ does not contain food. Shortly after taking a drink (e.g. after fifteen minutes) the level of arterial blood may be 40 % to 60 % higher than the level in the peripheral venous blood. Alcohol is eliminated through all the bodily routes of excretion . About 5 % of ingested alcohol is excreted in the breath and about 5 % in the urine. In practice hardly any factors influence the rate at which alcohol is destroyed in the body. The rate of combustion of alcohol is generally regarded as constant. When this range is taken into account the arbitrary nature of statements can be appreciated which claim that 10 to 12 ml of alcohol can be destroyed per hour by the average man. It is the assumption about these arithmetical averages that underlies the claim that the average man can destroy the equivalent say about one fluid ounce." of a small whiskey per hour Thus, Mr Chairman, my advice to the hon members is that when one is detained for driving under the influence one should be very thankful if there are any delays in the taking of blood specimens. CHIEF G M MABANDLA : Mr Chairman, arising from the explanation by the hon Minister, the point with which I am concerned is that the specimen can be taken from any part of the body. We are all drivers these days, both males and females, and people drink irrespective of sex. Can't the whole thing be made specific so that in such cases the blood can only be taken from a certain part of the body? M/JUSTICĖ: That will be taken care of. MR D TEZAPI : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, I think the hon member is mistaken . Whenever a person is apprehended by the police and is being charged for drunken driving, if a blood sample is to be taken it is not 252.
so justly deserves, by all members of this Assembly. As members are aware, licensed liquor premises situated in Transkeian towns are at present governed by Republican legislation over which this Assembly has at present no legislative powers. I must, however, assure the hon members that arrangements are being made to replace all the Republican Liquor Proclamations applicable in our towns with the non-discriminatory Transkeian Liquor Act at the latest by 26 October 1976. Liquor licence holders wishing to open their hotels before independence to all races will, in terms of existing legislation have to apply for a special authority. As I indicated earlier on , the bill brings the administration of the Transkei Liquor Act into line with an independent Transkei and provisions which are regarded as irrelevant to an independent Transkei are being repealed, e.g. at present the act defines the expression "Cabinet" as Cabinet of the Transkei. This is necessary because at the moment there are several cabinets in the Republic of South Africa. After independence there will be only one cabinet and a definition thereof is no longer necessary. Hence the deletion thereof. Although none of the clauses can be regarded as contentious, I would like to explain a few of those which contain some important amendments. Clause 1 (e) makes provisions for a brewer's licence as an additional licence under the Act. At present no such licence can be issued and as there will be room for such a venture in an independent Transkei the clause is necessary. The inclusion of the districts of Glen Grey and Hershel in the Transkei has increased the area of jurisdiction of the Liquor Board and the amendment in clause 3 makes provision for a corresponding increased number of nominated members. This will ease administrative problems in the consideration of applications. In view of the legal formalities involved in the handling of liquor applications, clause 5 makes provision for representations of applicants by legal representatives only. Clause 28 repeals the liquor laws presently applicable to the districts of Glen Grey and Herschel and extends the application of the Act to the aforementioned districts. This is desirable as it ensures uniformity in the administration of liquor laws. I hope that I have covered all the important points in the bill and I now move that the bill be read a second time. Merci beaucoup, Mr Chairman. (Laughter) M/AGRICULTURE : I second, Mr Chairman. MR J M DUMALISILE : Mr Chairman and hon members, as the hon the Minister of Justice as already indicated that this House will unanimously agree to this amendment bill, I quite understand they will also agree with my comments, but I can only say this has come too late after some hon members and in particular these chiefs have suffered a great deal in some of these hotels, and it is further away when he talks of independence. Hon members can be assured, and I want to let them know that the member now standing talking is a teetotaller . . . M/JUSTICE : That will be the day ! (Laughter) MR DUMALISILE: ... but as I am standing here I am speaking particularly on behalf of the chiefs. (Laughter) While I am not going to mention some of these hoteliers who have made a mockery of some hon members and other dignitaries, it is clear to everybody that many of these hoteliers have objected and refused these people the opportunity to get to the tables and counters for a sip. M/JUSTICE: A sip of what? MR DUMALISILE: Even of tea. This bill being a direct route to multi-racialism in the hotels we appreciate and welcome it. (Laughter) I pity some hotels who are trying to reconstruct some non-European bars when they know that after independence it will be a non-racial state. Some of these hotels do not even allow paramount chiefs to sit round with their white friends and colleagues, but they have to go round outside and have what they want. Even worse for the Cabinet Ministers who have their tea and every other type of tea in the back yard. (Interjections) Mr Chairman, this bill is welcome on this side of the House and you must not make a noise because you must understand I am speaking in the capacity of Leader of the Opposition. (Laughter) Thank you, Mr Chairman.
taken by the police, it is taken by a competent doctor who has the right of access to any part of the human being, whether it be male or female. MR L L MGUDLWA : Mr Chairman, I would in fact like the hon Minister to enlighten me as to whether alcohol is absorbed through the venous or the arterial system and, in the circumstances, when I have heard from the hon Minister I will have to comment further. M/JUSTICE : The doctor knows. MR MGUDLWA: You are not a doctor, though. Will the Minister reply. M/JUSTICE: He is not a doctor either. MR MGUDLWA: You are not the Minister. D/CHAIRMANL Address the Chair, please. MR MGUDLWA : Mr Chairman, I have put my question to the hon Minister. M/JUSTICE: No reply. MR H H ZIBI : Mr Chairman, I am also interested in this section of the bill. Suppose a policeman takes you to a competent authority in the form of a doctor and he afterwards falls out with you and he influences a doctor to use a certain part of the body to extract blood from from what then? M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, we are going to waste a lot of time. Doctors are taken to be men of integrity until the contrary is proved and therefore you cannot anticipate that doctors will be influenced by the police.
Clause 7 put and agreed to. Clause 8 put and agreed to. On Clause 9. M/ROADS : Mr Chairman , the long and short of this clause is that it often happens that the owner of the car which is involved in a court case was not driving the car himself. Now we are trying to circumvent that by saying that the court will presume he was driving the car and he must point out who was driving the car if he was not driving it himself.
Clause 9 put and agreed to. On Clause 10. M/ROADS: It has been discovered, Mr Chairman, that abnormal load vehicles with their abnormal loads are the cause of wear and tear of the surfaces of roads and the drainage pipes. They are being made now to pay for the damage they do to the roads. MR J M DUMALISILE : Mr Chairman, I am not disregarding the reply given by the hon Minister but I have a question to put. We know people possessing these heavy vehicles and buses and so on are paying heavy taxes already. Why are they now being made to pay extra ? M/JUSTICE: Those are not abnormal. MR H H ZIBI : Which are abnormal ? M/JUSTICE: It is usually written on these vehicles . You can see them as they drive along the roads.
Clause 10 put and agreed to. Clause 11 put and agreed to. Long title and whole bill put and agreed to. House Resumed. D/CHAIRMAN : Mr Chairman, I wish to report that the Transkei Road Traffic Amendment Bill 1976 has been passed by the committee without any amendment. M/ROADS : Mr Chairman, the third reading will be tomorrow, 11 May. TRANSKEI LIQUOR AMENDMENT BILL : SECOND READING M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, Honourable Paramount Chiefs and hon members, I rise to move the second reading of the Transkei Liquor Amendment Bill , 1976. On various occasions it has been publicly stated that when the Transkei attains independence it will be a nonracial state. It is chiefly in pursuance of this declared policy of the Transkei that I ask the Legislative Assembly to amend the Transkei Liquor Act, 1967, so as to bring the provisions for the administration of this Act into line with an independent Transkei and to abolish all reference to discrimination based on race. I am deeply convinced that racial discrimination as a governmental policy is wrong and for this reason I have also no doubt that this measure will receive the support it
The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION TRANSKEI LIQUOR AMENDMENT BILL: SECOND READING CHAIRMAN : Hon members, I see the hon the Minister of Justice has not arrived yet, but I shall ask the Secretary to read this bill a second time. The bill was read a second time.
253.
there have been no fewer than four wage increases over the last two and a half years, almost quadrupling the minimum shift rate. This has had the snowballing effect of influencing competitive wage increases in all other sectors, with the result that the total earnings of our contract workers in 1975 amounted to approximately R135 000 000. It is not uncommon these days for contract workers to return home at the end of their work periods with savings of as much as R500 and more in their pockets. In the case of the higher paid skilled workers this could amount to close on R1,000
CHAIRMAN : Will any Minister on behalf of the hon the Minister of Justice suggest a date for the committee stage of this bill. M/AGRICULTURE : Mr Chairman, in the absence of the hon Minister I move that the committee stage will be tomorrow, 11 May. APPROPRIATION BILL:
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
M/INTERIOR: Mr Chairman and hon members, I move that the House should sit in committee of supply. M/AGRICULTURE : I second. Agreed to.
The compulsory deferred pay scheme referred to in my previous policy speech has not yet been finalised and until it becomes operative, I wish to appeal to workers to save as much of their earnings as possible for spending in the Transkei instead of outside. By doing this, they will be contributing substantially to the economic growth of their homeland and thereby ensuring a bright future for themselves and their families at home. We have been fortunate in the past that no serious unemployment situation has arisen in the Transkei. This is due largely to the availability of fairly adequate job opportunities in the Republic of South Africa for Transkeians, and to the fact that up to now the predominantly rural economy has generally managed to support the populace through times of adversity. But we cannot continue indefinitely to rely solely on these saving factors to absorb and sustain our fastgrowing labour force. The pattern of living in the Transkei is changing so speedily that unemployment could steal upon us like a thief in the night, and we must be prepared for it. We must watch the trends and changing circumstances vigilantly, and plan now to meet whatever situation might develop. Earlier in my speech I made mention of problems which we are experiencing in the labour field and I am now coming to those problems . Employment for contract workers is generally limited to those who are under the age of 46 years. Therefore persons over that age have of necessity to be absorbed into employment within the Transkei, and their numbers are increasing alarmingly as an accelerated drift of population from the rural areas to the urban centres and particularly to the major growth points takes place. Either we must endeavour to curb this drift by improving the attractions and benefits of farming or other agricultural pursuits, or we must accept the drift as an inevitable process and provide greater and more extensive employment opportunities in the industrialised area of the Transkei. Most developing countries have at one time or another had to contend with the same type of problem, and we should do well to gain from their experience in finding effective solutions. Mr Chairman and hon members, I earnestly feel that I must share this looming problem with you , so that you are made fully aware of the need to look ahead and plan accordingly. We cannot afford to be complacent in this matter, and I can assure you that my Department, for one, will play its full share in trying to meet the challenge when it comes. In the Transkei, as well as in the Republic , employment laws are being radically remoulded in keeping with modern concepts and practices, and will consequently present the workers with a new deal in so far as service conditions, practical training, worker-employee relationships and other facets of employment are concerned . An effort will be made to have the Transkeian legislation completed within the next few months. A further problem which has presented itself in the past is the conveyance of recruited workers to their employment destinations in vehicles which are by no means satisfactory for the purpose. Hon members will be pleased to hear that, as a result of strong representations by my Department, the Republican authorities have now introduced stern measures to remedy the situation, and in future all vehicles used by employers to transport workers will conform in all respects to strict requirements regarding, inter-alia, the provision of suitable seating and adequate protection against the elements. It should be stated that some employers have for years been doing this of their own, even to the extent of providing or hiring special passenger buses for the purpose, and they deserve to be commended on their initiative in this respect. The Transkei's own Apprenticeship Scheme has now become well and truly launched with the establishment of an Apprenticeship Board, the promulgation of regulations and the designation of trades in accordance with the provisions of the Act. The indenturing of apprentices in the Government and private enterprise sectors will give a new impetus to technical and other development within the Transkei . The Apprenticeship Board aims at maintaining ne highest possible standards of training for apprentices
House in Committee. POLICY SPEECH :
MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR
Mr Chairman, hon Paramount Chiefs, and hon members, in his speech at the opening of the present session of the Legislative Assembly, the Hon Minister Botha made mention of some of the achievements of my Department during the past year. These achievements are to be seen not only as a fulfilment of the aims and objects of my Department, but also as further evidence of the Transkeian Government's untiring efforts in promoting the welfare of all sections of the community. Mr Chairman and hon members, in elaborating on the achievements of my Department, I will commence by referring to that sturdy pillar on which the Transkeian economy firmly stands, namely its trained manpower . Although we have our problems in this field , problems which I will come to in due course, I wish to emphasize that the Transkeian trained manpower continues to gain strength year by year, and it is heartening to note that it will after the coming independence, provide the solid base on which the industrial infra-structure of the Transkei can develop and diversify. In the light of those remarks I think it is well that we should for a moment turn our minds to the beginning of selfgovernment in the Transkei in order to see clearly what development has actually taken place since then in the realm of manpower usage. The bare facts are as follows : In 1964 a total of 124 000 workers were placed in employment outside the Transkei borders, while a mere 32 700 were employed in the Transkei itself. In 1975 the total number of contract workers rose to 303 000, while the number of persons employed in the Transkei increased by 53 500 to 86 500. On the face of things, these figures might seem to indicate a growing disparity in the ratio between the availability of employment outside and inside the Transkei , but this disparity should not be seen as detracting in any way from the sound development of the Transkei. In fact I feel we should be thankful for the availability of a source of employment beyond our borders which has stood us in good stead while we have been consolidating our internal situation and laying down foundations for future development patterns. A similar pattern of manpower usage still prevails in our developing neighbouring countries in Southern Africa. To take short-term views of the situation, merely for the purpose of placating critics of the migratory labour system , is merely to distort the practicalities of that situation . As stated on previous occasions, the very considerable employment facilities which exist for Transkeian workers in the Republic should of necessity be seen as a long-term investment on the part of the Transkei in the experience and skills being gained by those workers, and which will in due time produce rich dividends as the Transkei grows and develops industrially and economically, and commences to draw upon that trained reservoir of manpower for its own development needs. This process has, in fact, already begun. It should be of real satisfaction to us that our workers have gained themselves an enviable popularity amongst employers far and wide, mainly as a result of their generally disciplined conduct and propensity to stick to their jobs. This provides a most gratifying guarantee that our work force will remain much in demand, and thus be accorded the benefit of constantly expanding work opportunities . I shall be pleased if hon members will convey these sentiments to workers in their respective areas, and encourage them to continue rendering the same degree of faithful service in future. They can rest assured that their interests will be fully safeguarded after independence by a charter or labour agreement to be drawn up between the Transkeian Government and the Republican Government. The wage pattern has changed considerably for the better in recent times, and in the case of the largest labour-employing concern, the Mine Labour Organisation (N.C.R. ) Ltd,
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Imenities for workers at Butterworth . Although four farms have thus far been purchased , negotiations for the acquisition for further areas are proceeding. It is expected that more than 1 600 hectares will have been purchased before the situation is satisfactory. With regard to this matter Mr Chairman and hon members, I must mention that as a result of the non -availability of suitable land, the Government had no option but to excise portions of Mission and Zazulwana Administrative areas, Butterworth, as well as a portion of Gwadana area, Idutywa, for utilisation in connection with the industrial development of Ibeka. It was with regret that such a step had to be taken. The Government, however, had no alternative and it is possible that similar situations will arise as development accelerates. Indeed, this is a factor that would probably lead to the quicker urbanisation of sections of the Transkei a development that is inevitable in a young country like the Transkei, where especially those resident in rural areas surrounding industrial complexes must of necessity make way for the tide of industrial development. Mr Chairman and hon members, we must appreciate that the Department of the Interior comprises a diversity of activities. One moment you are purchasing land, the next moment you are considering an application for a trading site and in between, Mr Chairman, you must still find time to organise a general election. My Department is experiencing a lively period on the election front. A successful by-election was conducted in the Engcobo electoral division where the hon member, Mr Dingile Mxutu was elected on the 22 October, 1975, to fill the vacancy created by the demise of Mr G G Kutu during January last year. I am not going to elaborate on the amendments effected to the Transkei Constitutional Act, 1963 (Act No. 48 of 1963), by Republican Act No. 61 of 1975, as I had already done so in my second reading speech when this House considered the amendments to the Transkei Electoral Proclamation, No. R142 of 1963 , during the October 1975 Short Session. What I, however, wish to state is that despite the fact that my Department was allowed a relatively short period within which to register the voters in the electoral divisions of Herschel and Glen Grey respectively, our efforts did not go unrewarded we effected 81 813 registrations. Hon members will also be pleased to learn that the appointment of the urban representative, assistant urban representatives, members of the boards appointed by the urban representative in urban areas and secretaries of Tribal Authorities as additional registration officers did play a substantial role in the registration of new Transkeian voters during the past 3 months. Whilst 14 222 registrations of new voters were effected for the period commencing after the 1973 General Election till October 1975, with the assistance of the aforementioned officers and as a result of an extra effort by the Magistrates and Bantu Affairs Commissioners, I am happy to state the 46 850 registrations were effected during the period December 1975 to 6th February, 1976. These registrations naturally do not include those of Glen Grey and Herschel . I would like to take this opportunity of expressing the appreciation of my Government to all the officials concerned, Transkeian as well as Republican, for the interest they have taken in this sphere of their activities . The Transkeian election machine is extremely well-organised and I have no fears that the coming general election will be handled with the utmost efficiency. Mr Chairman and hon members, I am now moving to the Welfare Activities of my Department . Mr Chairman, you will probably recall that on Thursday, 14 August 1975 , devastating veld fires swept through the districts of Flagstaff and Ngqeleni . In a lesser degree Lusikisiki and Mount Ayliff were also affected . Apart from 858 huts destroyed, I am sad to say that 18 persons lost their lives. I am, however, proud to say that help arrived forthwith and officials of my Department also played a major role in alleviating the distress of those affected. Although organisations and individuals from the Republic and all over the Transkei donated more than generously to relieve the sad plight in which the inhabitants of the stricken areas found themselves, my Department and, for that matter, the Transkeian Government, made substantial contributions by supplying mainly temporary accommodation and buildirg material. Apart from tents which were made available, building material to the cost of R28 000 was supplied . Due to the donations received it was not necessary for my Department to purchase food, clothing and blankets for the people of Flagstaff, Lusikisiki and Mount Ayliff districts. My Department had , however, supplied food and may mention blankets to the people affected in Ngqeleni . that cash donations received amounted to approximately
so that each qualified artisan, on completion of his contract of apprenticeship, should be in a position to render skilled service of a commendably high quality, especially in those trades where human safety is entirely dependent on the reliability of the technical and related work performed, such as in the electrical, motor mechanics and building fields. I wish to turn now for a moment to the matter of civil pensioners. A glance at statistics will indicate to what extent the Government pension scheme has grown over the last 10 years or so. In 1964 membership of the Pension Fund stood at 324. In 1975 the figure had increased to 10 117. The fund continues to grow and prosper. In 1964 its assets amounted to a mere R433 500, while in 1975 these had rocketed to R8 757 000. Exits from the Fund in the form of resignations, discharges, dismissals, deaths, etc., remain high, and are to a large extent an indication of the drain of personnel from the public service and the teaching profession . During the period from 1964 to 1975, exits from the Fund in the case of teachers amounted to 27,8 per cent of total admissions over the period, and in the case of public service personnel this was as high as 30,5 per cent. The Transkeian Government Service Pension Fund is at present being actuarially valued in order to precisely determine its financial position in relation to existing and future commitments, and the report of the Actuaries will be tabled in this House as soon as it is available. Hon members will no doubt be glad to learn that at the instance of the hon the Chief Minister, positive consideration is at present being given to the establishment of a pension scheme for members of this Assembly. The necessary draft legislation in this respect is fairly far advanced and will hopefully be available in the near future after it has been examined and commented upon by the Government's actuaries. Now I am coming to another aspect of the activities of my Department. Mr Chairman and hon members, in so far as commercial activities in the Transkei are concerned, it would appear as if the situation is being stabilized in that the number of trading licences issued has remained more or less on the same level for the last three years. I am, however, particularly perturbed about two factors concerning trading. The first is that the fact that applicants in many instances exceed the scope of the licence granted to them. This applies mainly to the holders of fresh-produce and restaurant licences who indulge in business activities for which general dealers licences are required . This is a most unsatisfactory situation which is not only illegal but also detrimental to existing general dealers who , depending on the integrity of applicants for licences that would materially affect their own business, do not initially object to the granting of the licences concerned. I must therefore appeal to all to ensure that this unlawful and most undesirable practice is not allowed to continue. The second matter that is causing concern, Mr Chairman and hon members, is the fact that recommendations furnished by Tribal and Regional Authorities show that very little consideration is given to factors relevant to the issue of new licences, namely matters such as population, distance to other existing sites, topography, etc. Tribal and Regional Authorities must remember that they are the watchdogs of the Department and the community in that they have better knowledge of local conditions, and they should ensure that they have all the relevant information regarding an application at their disposal before considering it. The recommendation of a business within 150 metres of another business without any justifying factors, as was experienced recently, does nothing but to reflect on the ability and image of Transkei Authorities. Mr Chairman, whilst on the subject of trading, I must make mention of the role that Traders' Associations can play in the Transkeian commercial world. As you are aware, all applications for new licences in the Transkei are advertised in the Official Gazette, on Magistrates ' Notice Boards and by notice posted to the existing businesses. Although sporadic generalised complaints are received from Traders' Associations regarding the granting of licences, my Department has received few, if any, formal objections by associations to advertised applications. I must therefore appeal to Traders' Associations to display greater interest in these advertisements and to lodge specific objections where they feel justified . By doing so they would not only assist my Department but could also play an invaluable part in the orderly economic and commercial development in the Transkei . As mentioned in my policy speech last year, it was the intention of my Department to purchase various tracts of land mainly for the establishment of industries , the cultivation of industrial crops and the provision of housing and 255.
but we understand that this labour contract system has come to stay in the supposed Republic of Transkei . This, however, is regarded as an export of the Transkei because according to what is contained here it also brings revenue to the Transkei from the Republic by means of these labour contracts. We have also constantly insisted that in view of the fact that the labour contract system has apparently come to stay in the Transkei, the conditions of the labourers going out to the Republic must be considered and placed on a healthy basis. We have also seen that wherever firms come to collect workers from the Transkei they have been transported in exposed transport vehicles . Our hon Minister of the Interior has just indicated that this state of affairs has been attended to. She has also mentioned that in the not too distant future the labourers will be accommodated in improved vehicles. This side of the House the official Opposition ---- welcomes that.
R5 000. This amount is being used for the purchasing of food and clothing to the stricken people as and when the need arises. Mr Chairman and hon members, I wish to place on record the Transkeian Government's sincere thanks and appreciation to the many people and organisations which helped with relief for the fire victims. We are very grateful. Hon members will, no doubt, be glad to learn that the wages of workers in sheltered employment schemes have been increased from 4,167 cents per hour to 9,6 cents per hour for qualified workers and from 2,08 cents to 4,8 cents per hour for unqualified workers . There had been a 25 % increase in social benefits during 1975 for which an additional amount of R2 139 000 was made available from Government funds, thus bringing the total amount expended to R15 493 100. The bi-monthly amount payable to a beneficiary now stands at R30,00. The position of War Veterants who qualify for social benefits is under review and it is hoped that the investigations which are being carried out will be to their advantage. I am, however, pleased to report that there is a noted increase in the number of births and deaths registered during the course of 1975. The importance of the registration of births and deaths cannot sufficiently be stressed . It is imperative for an independent state to know what its population growth is, as the growth rate plays an important role in Government planning. I therefore appeal to all concerned to propagate the necessity for an efficient population registration .
MR C DIKO : What official Opposition ? Where is the leader? MR DUMALISILE: We don't care what anybody holds as far as that is concerned , but we have come to speak facts, leader or no leader. The hon Minister touched on the salaries of our civil servants. It has always been the view of this side of the House that this part of the job as far as her department is concerned must be attended to, and we welcome the idea. Our civil servants are concerned in every department of the Transkeian Government and it is very important that their conditions of service and employment should be improved. Unless and until these conditions are improved and they accept them and welcome them, we shall be in danger of our civil servants drifting away from these departments . We are aware of the variety of duties of the Department of the Interior and of all that has to be considered by the hon the Minister of the Interior, but in any event we shall not lose sight of matters here and there which call for criticism. There is also a question which she mentioned in regard to old-age pensions. The old people are really pleased with the idea of having their money always increased by this department when it is in the hands of a lady . We know there are also some hon members of the House who cannot even support their families, but through their old mothers they obtain assistance. (Laughter) I am sure in their heart of hearts they wish you had increased this pension even more. M/AGRICULTURE : By how much? MR DUMALISILE : Depending on the availability of funds. The hon the Minister of the Interior has also touched on the fact that there are all these labourers who continue to go to work instead of getting into their lands and working properly. I am sure that only refers to people in various districts where they have allotted lands, except Idutywa, because in Idutywa if you are three brothers the land belongs solely to the one heir. The hon Minister also touched on the number of applications for trading licences . This question is really a problem to the tribal and regional authorities. I think right through the Transkei at these meetings of tribal and regional authorities the main thing considered is these applications for licences for cafés and other things. It is not a question of our not wanting our people to trade, but consideration on the basis of radius must be of importance. It appears these applicants do not even know what is meant by radius, unless it is explained to them by the authorities concerned . I am pleased the hon the Minister of the Interior has made an appeal to the authorities that they must take this into consideration so that people will not think they are just being refused permission to trade. The hon the Minister of the Interior has also touched on the sympathetic response to the situation in where the Qaukeni region - I think in the Flagstaff area people suffered loss of life and property. While we appreciate the assistance given to people by this department, we consider this amount insufficient. The hon Minister has mentioned families who lost their homes and all their possessions in the fires. These people had clothing, etc, in their houses and those children still have to go to school. We consider that some of those children might be attending school and had books and so on in their possession. D/CHAIRMAN : Hon members, there is too much murmuring in this House. MR DUMALISILE: Nevertheless, the department has done its best. Mr Chairman, let me now touch upon the elections . The hon Minister has told us that from 1963 onwards the numbers of registered voters have increased. Although I am not fighting against the information officers, I say they are not doing their work in Gcalekaland, as these officers ,usually say they are of a higher status than the chiefs and anyone who desires information should approach them . If we as members of parliament do not tell people to go and register they would not do so. Again, we support
In respect of the Survey Branch of my Department , I want to stress that the main object of that branch at present is to establish a full-fledged Surveyor-General's office for the Transkei. I can report good progress over the past four years thereanent . The position regarding the training of personnel is as follows :(a) There are seven B.Sc. (Survey) students, two in their third year, four in their second year and one in his first year at Fort Hare University. (b) There are four Survey Technicians. Two will qualify this year and two are in their first year at Mmadikoti Technical College, Pietersburg. (c) There are four Technical assistants receiving in-service training. (d) During the past year the Surveyor-General in Cape Town helped us tremendously by giving special training to three technicians and two B.Sc. students . They worked on Transkeian documents which are at present still being kept in Cape Town. The experience they gained will be of immense value to the Transkei. A complete set of microfiling cards covering every plan and property in the Transkei is being processed in Cape Town and will be available before Independence. The viewers and printers to provide for productions to be made from these cards have already been installed. In conclusion I wish to state that with regard to staff utilisation, my Department has not been lagging behind. All steps possible are being taken to motivate the officials on my Department's establishment to exploit their potential abilities. I wish to thank the members of my Department for the dedicated manner in which they performed their duties during the past year and trust that they will not be found wanting when independence comes. Mr Chairman, I wish to thank the hon members for their attentive hearing, and move that Vote 4 be approved by the Committee. M/AGRICULTURE : I second, Mr Chairman. MR J M DUMALISILE : Mr Chairman and hon members, as members of this House will be aware, this is not my department but I will try by all means to fit myself into it. Fortunately, our Minister of the Interior as a tactic that whenever she gives her policy speech she will not play a hide-and-seek game but she will act like a statesman, or a stateswoman . There is a tendency with other hon Ministers of these departments to play hide-and- seek, but it is very difficult and very unacceptable for us when anyone will not come out with fact and truth . We know these are official platitudes, but whenever you find this or that has been done or has not been done M/JUSTICE: Platitudes cannot be official. Learn your language.
MR DUMALISILE : These are official platitudes . The hon Minister in part of her speech has concentrated on labour contracts . The number of our men leaving the Transkei to go to the Republican labour centres is more than that of the workers who remain in the Transkei. It is also our point, and has always been our point in the past, that this has only been the effect of separate development , 256.
the statement made by the hon Minister when she says these officers assist when voting takes place, but some of them do not in fact know what they are expected to do. I remember an occasion when people were driven away from the polling station because it was said they did not have a stamp for 1973. I do not know what the reference was, and when I inspected their reference books I found it was stated therein that they were registered voters for Willowvale. We then discovered that these electoral officers and the people who register people as voters were not well acquainted with what they should do. We would that such officials should be supplied with complete instructions because we all want to come back to this House as members after independence. I was pleased to hear that improvements have been introduced in regard to transport of labour recruits, but there is something which is most unsatisfactory in these offices. Some of these workseekers have received letters recalling them to work. It is a usual occurrence that when such a person has been called to the magistrate's office he finds a document has been issued in favour of someone else. We cannot say how this is arrived at, that a person is issued with a permit belonging to a different person. I can say that this does not only exist in Willowvale, because an hon member for Nqamakwe asked me to stress this point. It will be noted that these people rush to the office to get these permits and because there is such a rush and confusion, window panes are often broken. These people are usually taken as ordinary recruits, but it should be borne in mind that the Transkeian Government gets R1 per recruit. As the Government profits by such recruits they should follow the system applied by the Mine Labour Organization of providing food for these recruits en route to work. As I have already indicated , the hon the Minister ofthe Interior has given us a frank policy statement because she has told us what is being done and what is not -— unlike other politicians who evade the issue. We would that all her endeavours should be fruitful. CHIEF N T SIGCAU : Mr Chairman and hon members, I just wish to touch on a few points. The policy speech of the hon the Minister of the Interior is clear and straightforward, so there is not much to be mentioned so far as that is concerned , except to explain some few points. To start with I would speak about manpower , which is the backbone of any country which is still undergoing development. Mr Chairman, the first point I would like to mention is the security of the people who are working outside the Transkei. It has been the fear all over the Transkei that after independence the people outside the Transkei will not be protected, and I would like to stress this point because, though the hon Minister has mentioned that the people working outside the Transkei will be safeguarded by a charter or labour agreement of some sort. Even if there is going to be such charter or labour agreement I would like the hon the Minister of the Interior to make even more certain that the people of the Transkei are insured in so far as their security is concerned. Even though the Whites are the people who have been responsible for the training of what we have now, when I have been to some places in the Republic of South Africa I have found that the white man has a different attitude now, and that is an attitude which is negative to what he himself shaped. Take the fact, for instance, that it is not uncommon to meet a white man saying: Go back to the Transkei, go back to Matanzima — what do you want in the Republic of South Africa ? Yet the people from the Transkei who are working in the Republic were promised by Dr Verwoerd that they would be protected under this policy of separate development. After all, Dr Verwoerd was the architect of the policy of separate development. Now let me pass on to another point. I want to comment with appreciation on the Apprenticeship Board which has been established by the Department of the Interior in order to train apprentices. Now, if we want the Government of the Transkei to be a real government there are certain indispensable prerequisites which the Government should not continue with without giving some recognition, because these people are an essential part in so far as the problems of the Transkei are concerned, and in so far as their services are concerned . Take, for instance, the valuable service they are going to render as motor mechanics, electrical engineers and building contractors. We also appreciate the establishment of a Surveyor-General's office by the department. The hon Minister has mentioned that there are Transkeians being trained at the University of Fort Hare in surveying . Now, Mr Chairman, there is something very important I would like to come back to in that connection , and I am referring to the land surveyors who are undergoing training. Some are at Fort Hare and others are undergoing training in Cape Town and at Mmadikoti in the Transvaal. I think after
these students have acquired their degrees they should be taken to some other country for further study in order to acquire experience. If we could send some of our personnel who have obtained their B.Sc. degrees in surveying and engineering to Italy, for instance, they could acquire a good deal of experience. By taking these students to such countries their experience will be much wider, so that they can become expert advisers to the Government of the Transkei. We should not only depend on seconded officials but we should have our own men. It is high time that the Transkeian Government should take cognizance of the fact that a black man does have ability equal to that of the white man, but the only thing is that the black man is always kept in - I don't know whether to call it a cage but in these limited surroundings, and he is not given enough scope to develop. Thereafter the white man comes and tells us a black man will never be able to rule himself because even after being under the Whites he does not have the mental ability of a white man. Another thing the Government, together with the Republican Government, should see to is that industries are established in the Transkei so that we can curb this drifting of people from the rural areas to the urban areas to seek work. Take, for instance, what is going on in the Transkei. Farming is a failure because all our able-bodied men go to the cities. If we had enough well distributed industries in the Transkei our men would not go as far afield as the Transvaal and Natal to look for jobs. They would remain in the Transkei and during the time when they are out of work they would be able to go to their homes to see how the cultivation and the tilling of the soil is taking place. Another thing the hon Minister has mentioned is that people should spend their money in the Transkei and not outside, so that they could make a contribution to the economy of the Transkei. If we could have industries in the Transkei, definitely their money would be spent in the Transkei. Of course, I understand those who are in the mines and sugar estates are able to save their money because it is kept for them until such time as they return to their homes. They are therefore able to use their money in the Transkei. So what about those who are working outside the Transkei in the firms ? They spend their money in the Republic of South Africa, and that is why I say industries should be established in the Transkei and they should be fairly distributed. MR S A XOBOLOLO : Mr Chairman and hon members, I also wish to make a few remarks in connection with this policy speech. Under subhead K of this Vote in the Estimates of Expenditure - Expenses in connection with Elections and Registration of Voters we see an increase ofR300 000. For the year 1975/76 the amount was R50 000 and for the current year it has been increased to R350 000. That is very commendable. I would that the hon Minister should see that this amount is fully used. Firstly, the election results should not take a month and more before they are made known. We should get the results as they get them in white parliamentary elections. It is of great importance that we also should not wait for such a long time until we are suspicious about what is happening to the counting of the votes. I will not say much about this because the matter has already been mentioned . But it has happened that when people go to register their votes they are carrying new reference books, having lost their old ones, and the stamp does not appear in the new book to show the person is a registered voter and he is told to go away because there is no stamp to indicate that he is a voter. The electoral officers should take pains to discover whether a man has been registered when he states he is a voter. When voting is being carried on a ballpoint pen should be used instead of a lead pencil. Probably the reason why an ordinary pencil is used is because of lack of funds, but now there is this money being allocated ballpoint pens should be purchased for the use of voters. As voting is of great importance, something should be done to make the voter feel satisfied he has cast his vote. This department should see to it that the people in the labour centres who are more or less refused the opportunity to go to vote in the urban areas are given this opportunity. Many people who are away at work have lodged complaints that they have not been allowed by their employers to go and cast their votes. We would that these points should be considered and rectified. It is not necessary nor desirable to attack the Government when the Government has done something good. Those are the points I wished to bring to the notice of the hon Minister and I would particularly request that this matter of ballpoint pens should be kept in mind. We would also commend the hon Minister for the increase in old-age pensions, but I would that these oldage pensions should be paid monthly. We all know that these old people have accounts at the stores and it is difficult
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for them when they have to wait for two months for their money. I thank the hon Minister for her policy statement.
The debate was adjourned. House Resumed.
The D/Chairman reported progress. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 11 May 1976.
MR R S MADIKIZELA: Mr Chairman, under this head I crave your indulgence. Mr Chairman and hon members, the hon member for Libode, Acting Chief Sidamela Robert Dlitamba was present in this House on Friday when the roll call was taken, and he resopnded affirmatively when his name was called out. He realised too late yesterday that he was marked as being absent, after the minutes had already been adopted. I wonder, Sir, if the record could not be put straight. Thank you, Mr Chairman. TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS
TUESDAY, 11 MAY 1976
CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon members, in accordance with the provisions of section 28 of Proclamation No. R334 of 1963 I lay upon the table the Annual Report of the Transkeian Public Service Commission for 1975.
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ADMINISTRATION OF OATH
NOTICES OF MOTION CHAIRMAN: Hon members or the House, I wish to advise the House that during the recess a vacancy occurred in the representation of this House due to the retirement of Acting Chief Marshall Lehana of Mount Fletcher with effect from 1 September 1975. The vacancy has now been filled by Acting Chieftainess Ma-Montoeli Lehana. Will the new member now come forward, escorted by two members of the House, to take the oath to uphold the Constitution of the Transkei. Acting Chieftainess Ma-Montoeli Lehana took the oath before the Chairman of the Assembly.
67. The hon the Chief Minister gave notice to move: "(1) That whereas the Umzimkulu Regional Authority has, in terms of sub-section (1) of section 45 of the Transkei Constitution Act No. 48 of 1963 resolved that sub-chief Petros Jozana be elevated to the status of fully fledged chief; (2) And whereas this resolution entails the creation of new chieftainship in the Transkei ; (3) Now, therefore, in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should in terms of sub-section (2) of section 45 of Act No. 48 of 1963 consider the advisability of:(a) abolishing the existing sub-chieftainship in respect of the Baca tribe resident within the area of the Silahla Tribal Authority in the district of Umzimkulu; (b) creating a new chieftainship in Umzimkulu district in respect of the Baca tribe resident within the area of the Silahla Tribal Authority; and (c) recommending that the State President should confirm the designation of Petros Jozana as chief of the said area with effect from the date on which he assumes duty as chief."
ANNOUNCEMENTS
CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon members, as I intimated some time last week that it will be necessary for the House to have night sessions, the Cabinet met this morning and decided that I move a motion that the rules of the House be waived so that the House sits continuously from 2.15 p.m. and only have half-an-hour's break until 11 p.m. as from today. Mr Chairman, it is imperative that the House is prorogued on Friday this week. On that date we shall have gone through the normal two months of our sessions for which expenditure is provided in my estimates. The Government is almost going through all its business and will be finished in one or two days' time, but this Constitution has got to be completed on Thursday night or let me say on Friday morning. I am appealing to the hon members to be serious. In the Republic of South Africa night sessions take place the whole night until the following morning. This is an abnormal case which has not existed before, but I think I will get the support of all reasonable members - members who are serious enough to know their responsibility as members of parliament. I know lightminded people will not support this motion because when they are in parliament their minds are wavering somewhere outside this House. With those few words. Mr Chairman, I move. M/AGRICULTURE: I second.
QUESTIONS Question No. 99: Mr. W. L. Sipuka asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry: "(a) Is the Minister aware of the number of Administrative Areas which have been planned and thereafter nothing done in the line of fencing and siting? (b) If yes, how many are they in each district ? (c) Could the Minister tell the House why fence constructions have been brought to a standstill? (d) How many vehicles belonging to the Depratment of Agriculture are in the garage for repairs? (e) Is the Minister in a position to state how long they have been in the garage and the reason? (f) Why does it become necessary for a broken truck to be driven such a long distance as from Matatiele or Willowvale for repairs yet there are garages in the country towns?" Reply: "(a) Yes. Bizana 6 (b) Mt. Frere Umtata 3 Idutywa 12 1 Mqanduli Ngqeleni 2 7 Mt. Fletcher Flagstaff 7 Kentani I Butterworth Libode 3 Port St. Johns 1 Lusikisiki Umzimkulu Tsomo 3 Willowvale 3 Engcobo (c) It was at that stage due to curtailment of expenditure to curb inflation. Fencing will continue in this 1976/77 financial year. Approximately 9. Ranging from July 75 up to date shortage of mechanics. (f) Department of Roads and Works is in control of repairs to transport and are thus in a better position to answer this question."
Agreed to.
12127316
M RKM GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, in view of the fact that an emergency situation is being met, one would not quarrel with these night sessions, but I am worried over the practicability of the scheme which does not provide for a supper break for the members. Some of the members are living in the Municipal Location, others in Ncambedlana, and means of transport are not very good. One would have thought probably a break of an hour between 6 and 7 would assist members. If the conditions are so stringent we may find absenteeism worrying us in this House and we would like all hon members not to have an excuse not to return to the evening session. I am sure the hon the Chief Minister will accommodate this suggestion which will make for effective deliberations even in the evenings. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, the hon the Leader of the Opposition has raised a very important suggestion, and this to me is acceptable. — that the House should break at 6 o'clock and resume its meetings at 7 o'clock. Now, Mr Chairman, I will see that the bus operators provide a bus from the government buildings to the location and also to Ncambedlana . I think the Secretary of the House will deal with the situation immediately. I have no doubt that Bam Brothers will be very co-operative. Now, Mr Chairman, I have no doubt that all the members will cooperate and, in any event, if we find that members are absent a roll call will be taken and they will not be paid their sessional allowances. Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.
Question No. 100: Mr N Jafta asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:"(a) What was the annual gross product of Transkeian
258.
citizens in 1974 and 1975 in respect of:(i) Pigs; (ii) Poultry; (iii) Eggs? (b) Are there Transkeians who have taken up pig and poultry farming seriously as a viable business (c) If none, what steps have been taken to promote pig and poultry farming among Transkeians? (d) If none, why?"
Vacation leave Sick leave calcalculated per culated per working day working day within a circle per annum of 3 years i.c. 75/77
Rank
Reply: "(a) (i) At stock sales conducted in the Transkei 71 pigs were offered for sale and 65 were sold for R1 244. Other production figures are not available. For the two years in question the stock cencus figures reflected the following: 1974-320 232 pigs 326 336 pigs 1975 (ii) Production figures are not available but stock census figures were as follows : 1974-1 107 152 fowls 1975 1 094 927 fowls (iii) Not available. (b) Yes four farmers have taken up pig farming as a viable business, but poultry farmers do not exist. (c) Through the extension service of this Department all these farming ventures have been encouraged. (d) Farmer's days are regularly held at the Tsolo College whereby all these farming ventures are discussed and explained in great detail to the farmers. Radio talks on these subjects are included in the broadcasting programmes.
Labourer (M) ..
12
Labourer (F) Labourer (Youth) Forestry Guard Semi-Skilled Labourer Learner Driver/Operator Assistant Huntsman Yardman ..
99
Forestry Foreman Senior Forestry Guard .. Huntsman .. Handyman Bridge Builder Driver/Operator Senior Huntsman Senior Driver/Operator .. Clerk Grade II .. Forester Grade III Assistant Roads Foreman Forester Grade II Forester Grade I Senior Forester Principal Forester Chief Forester ..
Question No. 101 : Chief M N Matanzima asked the Minister of Education :"(a) How many school committee members are appointed for Jongilizwe? (b) What are their names ? How often do these members meet and where? Is the Minister aware of the fact that the Principal of Jongilizwe school is not using the house which was allocated to him as the Principal of that school ? (e) Is it proper that this Principal should use Government car to travel between Tsolo and Umtata every working day? If yes, why is it so?"
99
99 18 99 99 99 99 99 99 99 99 99 24 99 99 99 99
36 full, 36 half pay pay 99 99 99 99 99 99
72 full 72 half pay pay 99 99 99 99 99 "9 99 99 99 99 99 99 99 "9 99 99 99 99 99 99 99 99 99 99 99 99 99 99 99
(b) From a labourer to an officer within the notch of R1 080 per annum is entitled to 12 working days vacation per annum and 36 working days sick leave with full pay and 36 working days sick leave with half pay within a circle of three years. An officer within the salary progression of R170 R2 340 per annum is entitled to 18 working days vacation leave per annum and 72 working days sick leave with full pay and 72 working days sick leave with half pay within a circle of three years. An officer within the salary progression of R2 460R5 820 or more per annum is entitled to 24 working days vacation leave per annum and 72 working days sick leave with full pay and 72 working days sick leave with half pay withing a circle of three years. Labourers are entitled to the following public holidays a year:1. New Year's Day 2. Good Friday 3. Ascension Day 4. Republic Day 5. Day of the Covenant 6. Christmas Day 7. Boxing Day and officers are entitled to all public holidays. (c) Yes."
Reply:
'(a) Seven. Mr C Ranuga, Headman and Rev. G T Vika, Minister of Religion (Nominated by Regional Authority) ; (ii) Mr J Dracatos, Magistrate and Mr Nqhome, Assistant Magistrate (Appointed by Minister of Education) ; (iii) Mr J Taljaard, Principal, Mr J A Meijer, VicePrincipal and Mr E R Nepgen, Circuit Inspector (Ex officio). (c) Not less than once every three months (according to regulation). At the school. (d) No. But it is Government policy for him to reside in Umtata as school facilities for the tuition of his children are not available any more at Tsolo. Tuition for his children is only offered at Umtata. (e) Arrangements were made by the Government for him to use XG vehicle in place of his privately owned vehicle. The reason for such an arrangement is that the Government would run at a loss to meet claims made by this official when travelling between Umtata and Tsolo every day, that is, in respect of Mondays to Friday."
Question No. 103 : Mr R S Madikizela asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:"To what extent can the Transkei be said to be either overstocked or understocked according to the latest computation regard being had to the figures supplied to Question 83 relating to deaths and introduction of cattle, horses, sheep and goats in the various districts for the periods set out ? Please furnish details for each district."
Question No. 102:
Reply: Mr R S Madikizela asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:"(a) What are the gradations in rank in the forest staff beginning with the labourer to the highest officer in charge of a forest station? (b) What the leave rights and benefits (if any) of the said staff with regard to annual leave are and public holidays? (c) Whether those of the staff (if any) who are entitled to these rights and benefits receive leave with pay?"
District Bizana Butterworth Cofimvaba Elliotdale Engcobo .. Flagstaff . Idutywa Kentani
Reply : “(a) The grading of posts in forest stations and the leave rights are as tabulated below: 259.
Calculated Present Overstocked stock rate in by No. large carrying capacity per large stock stock units units large stock
77 430 25 000 43 610 28 480 61 300 40 000 46 000 43 000
83 934 32 259 70 565 47 566 120 000 52 922 68 366 66 815
+6 604 + 7 259 + 26 900 91 086 58 700 12 922 22 366 23 815
51 900 73 600 81 520 23 500 98 430 67 580 46 450 50 667 48 848 25 000 56 402 58 204 55 685 40 000 65 056 86 696 52 000 35 000
TOTAL ..
55 048 101 967 101 508 43 081 102 148 86 723 78 120 72 297 68 479 24 199 83 299 59 945 71 381 53 016 109 096 94 276 81 182 53 016
3 148 28 367 19 988 19 581 3718 19 143 31670 21 630 19 231 801 26 897 + 1 741 +15 696 +13 016 +44 040 + 17 584 + 29 183 + 17 100
++++++++
Libode Lusikisiki Matatiele Mt. Ayliff Mt. Fletcher Mt. Frere Mqanduli Ngqeleni .. Nqamakwe Port St. Johns Qumbu .. Tabankulu Tsolo Tsomo Umtata Umzimkulu Willowvale Cala ..
508 484
It must be mentioned that these figures are submitted in terms of Large Stock Units. All the small stock (sheep and goats) have been converted to large stock units at the rate of 6 small stock to 1 large stock unit. Question No. 104: Chieftainess C Lebenya asked the Minister of Health :
"What accommodation arrangements are made by the Department for: (a) Hospital Superintendent ? (b) Principal Medical Officers ? (c) Medical Officers appointed to the various hospitals in the Transkei?" Reply: "In the rural areas houses are occasionally available at hospitals. They are then allocated to medical staff. In urban areas, however, housing is more difficult to obtain. The Department of Health makes no arrangements for accommodation. "In Umtata there is a Housing Committee comprising of representatives of all departments which considers applications from seconded officials for houses controlled by the S.A. Bantu Trust. Applications for houses_controlled bythe Municipality of Umtata are dealt with by a Transkeian Housing Committee." Question No. 105: Mr H H Zibe asked the Minister of Roads and Works :"Arising from the reply to Question No. 68: Has there been any information received yet in respect of the road from Mt Fletcher Village to Tabase Store?"
Reply: "Yes, and arrangements have already been made to effect repairs to the road in question. " APPROPRIATION BILL:
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
M/FINANCE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I move that the House now sits in committee to consider the Appropriation Bill. M/INTERIOR: I second. Agreed to. House in Committee D/CHAIRMAN : Hon members, in regard to Vote 1, the hon Minister of Finance moved that the debate on his Vote be postponed till today. We shall therefore continue the debate on Vote 1. MR KM GUZANA: Mr Chairman, I am persuaded to the view that if we are to jump from the lady to the gentleman we might not know where we are between the two. (Laughter) M/FINANCE: What is the implication? MR GUZANA: There is no implication whatsoever it is simple English. May we take the hon the Minister of the Interior to the altar before we get back to the hon the Chief Minister ? I feel we are halfway through the Vote of the hon the Minister of the Interior and we might as well finish it. I am sure the hon the Chief Minister will be courteous enough to allow the lady first knock. Put and agreed to. The debate on Vote 4, Department of the Interior, was resumed. 260.
CHIEF J NTOLA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I rise to associate myself with this policy speech which I very much admire. It is so straightforward that it is difficult to comment on it, because its errors are conspicuous by their absence. Figures have been set out showing that there are fewer people employed in the Transkei than those employed outside the Transkei . It shows that we still suffer from a shortage of industries where people may obtain employment. It is hoped that if the hon Ministers go as far afield as Europe they may prevail and bring forth results. We encourage our Ministers to visit those places because it is possible they will bring western knowledge, western ideas and western skills. D/CHAIRMAN : Just a minute, please. Some hon members do not seem to realise they are here on business. When they rise to speak they will expect the House to listen to them. We have someone on the floor and people are busy conversing here. This must stop. Carry on, hon member. CHIEF NTOLA: Mr Chairman, it has been suggested also that our people working in the Republic should be paid in such a way that they will collect their money here in the Transkei so that the money will be spent in the Transkei. That will be possible if the Transkeian Government makes it so, so that ultimately that money will be spent in the Transkei . The hon Minister has also pointed out that the relationship between employer and employee is receiving the attention of the Government. Should that relationship exist it will cut out the question of strikes or labour unrest and it will also tend to improve wages. We are very thankful to the Government for the trouble they took during the disasters in Pondoland when people lost their homes through fire. Anyone hearing about it can hardly imagine what was happening, but we were witnesses to that disaster. We are very thankful for the support and assistance the Government afforded those people in the way of accommodation, blankets, food and so on, which were all supplied. We again say that it is the creation of industries which will boost our economy. The Government is there to encourage the people to work and they should appeal abroad for assistance. The Government should have advisory councils to advise them as to what steps should be taken to ensure progress. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR N JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon members , I stand up to make a few remarks in regard to the Department of the Interior. The hon Minister stated that her department has been successful in many things. There are certain aspects of the work which are showing signs of success, such as the increased number of workers who work in the Transkei, as well as those who work in the Republic. It is quite clear that we will have some people working in the Republic for many years to come and it is commendable that out people have shown their worth . They have made a name for themselves as people who can be trusted and relied upon. We are pleased to learn that the Mine Labour Organization and other companies have made increments in the salaries and wages of the workers in their employ. The hon Minister mentioned that some of the men employed in the Republic have returned to the Transkei with savings of R500 and more. We are very thankful to hear these things, but there is one aspect which is not satisfactory and that is that when our children receive these large amounts they forget that when they return home they should also work at home. Mention was made of the deferred pay scheme and it was stated that arrangements have not been finalized in that connection. We would be pleased if this deferred pay system could be enforced . When one has cash in one's hands it is easy to just spend it, but if it is kept elsewhere that money is quite safe . This will encourage the workers when they know they have made provision for the future. We must also be thankful for the arrangements made for transporting workers to the labour centres, because for many years they have been loaded into open trucks. Now this difficulty has been overcome by the introduction of a better system for transporting people to the labour centres. We should therefore commend the hon Minister and her staff in this regard because it is on account of their efforts that improvements have come about. Mention was also made of trading licences. We also had some difficulty in the issue of these licences, because one has to consult the various tribal and regional authorities. The difficulty was experienced as a result of doing away with the radius rule in regard to the siting of trading stores. When' applications are submitted to the tribal and regional authorities they find it difficult to control the distances between the trading stations and the result was that these stores shot up all over the country. We have raised this complaint constantly as there seems to be no control whatsoever over the issue of these licences. Everything lies in the power ofthe department . It is the department which should fix the
radius between stores. There is another danger with the issue of these licences. When people apply for a café or greengrocer's licence they also use those premises for a general dealer's business. This is a problem which faces everyone who is interested in trading in the administrative areas. They have no way of controlling this situation. I personally hold that it is the responsibility of the Department to see how this matter can be settled . The department sent people to represent them in these authorities, but those people were overpowered by the members of the authorities. MR E V NDAMASE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I am glad to figure in so important a dsicussion, for indeed we are all aware of the wonderful work this department is doing for our people. However, we are not blind to the existence of a clique which seeks to defile this department in the eyes of the public. I have in mind the position of clerks in this department who go all out to ask for bribes when they are called to duty. For instance, I am aware of cases where old people apply for old-age benefits . These applications are put through the tribal authorities and everything is done to make it possible for the said applicants to receive these grants. These applications are passed on by the magistrates' offices to this very department, and the applicants are told to wait for three months in some cases. When the date for the pay-out comes there is no mention of these applicants, and when the headmen pursue these matters they find to their greatest surprise that there is no trace of these applications at the magistrates' offices. Very often these clerks quote head office as being responsible for the delay This process con tinues for a year in some cases, and the applicants are advised to reapply. Strangely, the same thing applies again. The same reasons are advanced. In my administrative area I have known of two applicants who have applied unsuccessfully for two years. We do not know what is happening. These applicants have again applied for a third time now. We do not know what is going to happen This is an untenable state of affairs and something which has got to be looked into. Again, I know yet another unhappy situation - the case of people who apply for business rights. Normally, at Libode where I come from, when a person applies for these rights the magistrate usually wants to know how much he has in the bank, and I know of cases where the magistrate felt the cases deserved his utmost consideration, because in each case the applicant had more than R2 500 in the bank. These applications go through the tribal authorities. They are told to come to Umtata. I don't want to elaborate on that procedure because it will waste time. These applications are gazetted but what we want to know is what happens in the magistrate's office when the applications ar made and this is the last we hear of these applications. I know of one case where the applicant had to apply twice and at one stage he was told the records were missing. "Well, you will have to devise means of doing something in order for me to put this through." That is what the clerk said. In another case the clerk said the applicant must give him R100. Because the applicant in this case was an illiterate woman she advanced the money, and yet today there is no trace of her application. We have another case where the clerk said : "You have got to put fuel into this application." Luckily for this applicant he was referred to me, so I brought this applicant to the hon the Minister of the Interior. The hon Minister told me that unfortunately these clerks do not belong to her department but to the Department of Justice. However, I had to refer the matter to the magistrate of Libode to find out why this clerk made this demand . I am reliably informed that the matter did come up at Libode. How it was solved I do not know up to now, but the said clerk is still there and he continues to practise these malpractices. Well , that is something I feel is worth mentioning. We are aware that the hon Minister of the said department cannot be held blameworthy for that type of thing. We are aware that the department is doing wonderful things for our people. We are aware of the increases in social benefits and I am sure if the hon Minister were to go round canvassing for votes she would be voted into power overwhelmingly. D/CHAIRMAN: Hon members of the House, you will all agree with me that this Vote 4 has been sufficiently canvassed. This is proved by the fact that the last few speakers are making no reference to the policy speech but coming up with minor details. Practically all the speakers now are praising the speech and repeating themselves. If the House agrees I would like to call upon the hon Minister to reply. Agreed to. M/INTERIOR: Mr Chairman and hon members, in conneicton with this policy speech of mine I have noticed
261 .
that all the hon members really were pleased with the contents of the speech we presented . I will not have a lengthy reply to make, but I want to touch on one or two things . The very last speaker touched on a bit of corruption which seems to be going on in some of the offices in the Transkei. I think that if were we to look up my previous replies, my department has always felt sorry that such a state of affairs exists and in this House I have always told members it is one of those things for which we have not found an exact remedy. On a previous occasion I appealed to the hon members by saying that whenever they go out addressing meetings they should tell the people that whenever they go the various magistrates' offices to have things done for them the people should always know they are not required to pay, and I hope that in the new set-up that is, after independence - the Department of the Interior will have its own personnel in the various magistrates' districts. In connection with applications , be they for trade or old-age pensions, there are several occasions when we have had to write from the department to the various magistrates' offices, trying to trace applications, so even in that respect the remedy lies in a situation where the department will have officials directly responsible to it. Some hon members dwelt on the question of industrialization of the Transkei . I can just reply simply to that by saying my department is really responsible for buying land for industrial development. The other thing is that, judging from the figures which we gave you of people who are employed in the Transkei, one can come to only one conclusion that industrialization in the Transkei is really showing signs of good progress . I am positive that the Government would welcome written suggestions, perhaps, from the members as to other lines of industries which are overlooked by the Government. We have a tendency of putting too much on the shoulders of the Government . By your very membership in this House I believe you have every right to make suggestions, but you must never at any time think that every suggestion you make can be carried out , even if it is not reasonable. Mention was made of the fires in Flagstaff and one hon member said that although the Government had paid so much for building materials it had not really done sufficient for the people. I will only say that if the hon member could hear from the people concerned he will come out knowing that the people feel the Government did more than sufficient for them. One factor which was slightly disturbing about the whole thing was that some people took a chance because of the disaster and burnt one or two huts in order that they should also qualify for assistance from the Government. (Laughter) Some of them had already left the areas where the huts were burnt down and they were building in new areas allocated by the Department of Agriculture, but when the fires came it was as if they were still staying in those areas. So all in all, we did not only help those who were needy, we also helped a few others. I somehow hope that the people who come from that region should, at meetings they conduct, touch on this because it makes the work of the Government difficult if you are going to get people who are unscrupulous. Before I conclude, Mr Chairman, I just want to assure the hon member for Engcobo that even though we might use pencils in the elections I don't think a mark would be made against the wrong name, and if the person chooses to cheat even if ballpoints were used, the same thing would happen. In all the districts when the counts are going to be made, the people who stood for elections are allowed to be present when the boxes are opened, and when the actual counting takes place, and they cannot stand up and tell me they saw someone using a rubber to erase a pencil mark. The fact that perhaps the last by-election did not go the right way must not bring a complaint that there is something of that sort. I am referring to the by-election at Engcobo. I thank you, Mr Chairman, and I move that Vote 4 be accepted. M/AGRICULTURE : I second, Mr Chairman. The sum of R26 912 000 in respect of Vote 4, Department of the Interior, was passed to stand part ofthe Schedule.
VOTE 1 : DEPARTMENT OF CHIEF MINISTER AND FINANCE The debate was resumed. MR K M GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members , I wish to react to the policy speech of the hon the Minister of Finance which was delivered on Thursday last week, if I remember correctly. May I say right from the outset that all Governments of legislative bodies regard the right to differ, the right to oppose and the right to criticize as a very important ingredient of democratic government. and this is a right which can never be alienated if a semblance of
democracy is to be maintained in any legislative body. If at any time a Government should manifest an intolerance criticism, then it is beginning to grow into the concept of a one-party system of government. It would be a very, very sad day indeed if we were to find that the Transkei is falling in line with some Central African States which have tended to become governments of one party, have tended to become autocratic, have tended to vest power, and excessive power, in the Executive. Whatever may happen , whatever development takes place, let us hold sacrosanct the concept of the right to oppose and to differ. If independence is going to bring about a dissolution of the empire which was in the hands of the hon the Chief Minister of the Transkei, then we may say something good is coming out of it all, but I also note that whilst shedding some of the multifarious and rather irreconcilable bedfellows, he is taking on a very important portfolio -- that is, one which relates to Defence. M/FINANCE : How do you know that? MR GUZANA: You have said so in the hope that you are going to be Prime Minister. (Laughter) Whilst good words have been said about this First Battalion, whilst these men are regarded as our front line of defence (whom to fight only the hon the Chief Minister knows) let me stress the need for a Christian and religious influence to be exercised on these young men who are in the force. One would like to see an army chaplain attached to this battalion so that at no time do these people grow into fighting machines, but that their human side is developed, nourished and nurtured. The hon the Minister of Finance made reference to bi-lateral agreements, which are dependent upon independence, being considered by the Transkeian Government and the Republican Government now and probably in the postindependence date. I feel this is an important matter upon which this House should be educated and informed to the fullest possible extent. Probably these bilateral agreements are still in the process of negotiation, but it would be fair and just for hon members of this House to know what is being negotiated on behalf of the Transkei with the Republican Government. One would like to know, for instance, what negotiations are going on between the Transkeian Government and the Republican Government on the position of Blacks who are going to remain South African citizens — remaining in spite of the available Transkeian citizenship in white South Africa, for instance. If the negotiations are not complete - and I concede that this is a very thorny and complicated issue - at least let us know what representations this Government is making to the Republican Government with regard to these Blacks who wil' remain in white South Africa. Whilst we have a promise of improved labour regulations, may we know what that improvement is or what improvement is sought and how the Government seeks to present an improved structure for how it seeks to achieve this purpose. these black labourers Whilst we know that the migratory system of labour cannot end overnight and it will be with us for a long time into the future, one wishes that this Government and this House were in the know as to the suggested improvements which this Government is seeking the Republican Government to implement in order to reduce harsher and more demoralizing consequences of the system of migratory labour. When this Government indicates that there will still be claims made for more land, what is the Republican Government's attitude to this proposition? Is there a unilateral claim by the Transkei for more land, or is there a bilateral agreement as between the Transkei and the Republican Government that the latter will consider such claims as are made for more land after independence ? These are the bilateral agreements about which this House should know in detail. The same comment could be made on the matter of customs agreements and the treatment of citizens of the Transkei in the Republic, as well as the treatment of citizens of the Republic in the Transkei. These are issues upon which we should be informed and we should know so that our reaction to situations is correct rather than irresponsible. And with that plateful, Sir, I move an adjournment until 2.15 p.m. The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on Vote 1 , Department of Chief Minister and Finance, was resumed. MR HD MLONYENI : Mr Chairman and hon members, before I speak on the policy vote of the hon the Chief Minister I want to state one or two things, the first being that President Kruger was a democrat and one of the statements he left as a legacy to South Africa was this: If you hit a
262.
dog it will show you its teeth. Secondly, when we are gathered in this House the main purpose of everybody is gathered in this House the main purpose of everybody here is to aling himself or herself with either the Opposition side or the Government side according primarily to conscience, and it would not be wrong or farfetched to say that of these two sides it could be said of the Government side that it has a wise leadership. Then I want to give also a compliment to the opposing side, that it has a clever leadership, but I want this House to differentiate squarely between being wise and being clever. My humble pre-independence thought is that the clever side is clever as far as its nose, and one has to see the teeming figures that were once cracked and now they have cracked almost to oblivion. Once you the Government go back to the side which I support side - you want to unashamedly admit that it has an integrity in its leadership . I will forget about the exhaustpipe friend of mine across there from Tsolo. (Laughter) Now, Mr Chairman, I must concern myself with this Oppoparticularly with their concept of democracy sition and I want to state that as long as in democracy you are allowed to talk right in the cellar or on top of the roof, yet you must remember that there are limits to that. It is this limitation I want to advise the Democratic Party about and tell them they are off the track if they think we cannot take criticism. My hon Chief Minister, or the leader of this House, does accept criticism, but is is a leadership with a difference because this side of the House is not going to allow butcherbird pólitics. Now, I could remind my hon friend once more, without retracting, that he can go to Tongaat . That is precisely where this hon member for Tsolo wastes his time, giving us sugary stuff when we want reasonableness. Now before I give the Opposition because I want to give them in unequivocal terms what they will understand or will not understand, and I am going to quote from the Romans : People say. What say they? Let them say. That is the advice I want to give this Opposition in the Transkei. Beyond that I want to refer to the hon the Leader of the Opposition who seems to have definitely mesmerized by my being in this House from Kentani. Needless, Sir, to say, he should concern himself with the rusty débris and the backyards of Ncambedlana rather than concerning himself with what the people of Kentani think about me or what he thinks about me, right in his own yard. If he does not understand it he must go back to Imvo . Number 2 on this item- much to his surprise, the people of Kentani will return me in 1976, before October 26, to this House of Parliament and if he ever ventures to put his foot in Kentani he must know the reason, and it is this : They will vote me in because before I come here I go to them, covering every administrative area, asking what their difficulties are which I must bring to this parliament, and after every Friday from when this parliament met I go to my people and tell them what is happening right inside here. And now, Mr Chairman, I would like to speak, because I want to indicate that on the question of celebrations, when the hon the Leader of the Opposition spoke, I want to tell him he was merely referring that to jellyfish. Sir, if my time has elapsed I that he had better go with his want to finish this point followers, his Ncokazis, to the cloister, otherwise this House has only one phrase which I will repeat before I sit down: There is tide in the affairs of the Transkei. The tide is being moved by the hon the Chief Minister, his Cabinet, his supporters and everybody who is behind him, and if we miss that out he and his fragmented group will have it with the rest of his group, with those who will philander with him. Mr Chairman, you will tell me when I have to stop because I am going to speak ad lib because, having given the Opposition exactly what they deserve for their impertinence, their illogicality, etc, I must bring to them the importance, the poignancy, the astuteness of the points I brought from the policy speech of the hon the Chief Minister I want to tell him I collected here 20 points or more, and these are the points of the leader who has dedication towards his people, a leader who has responsibility — and I by don't mean a leader who wants only to be bamboozled other people. Mr Chairman, I must remind this House that there is a draft Constitution in which the hon the Leader of the Opposition has actively taken a part so that, for example, when he starts talking about citizenship I want to doubt his will-o' -the-wisp colours. Who is going to doubt this Constitution in the Transkei, because the only leader of the Government side has told you that the Transkeians are accepting independence ? Let it be known that those who think otherwise are not creating a cearth of a party system . I have never seen the smile of a man how needs the graces of a physiotherapist . How wonderful are the works of God indeed ! Laugh your way to your death because we are now, before independence, nailing the last
nail on the Opposition which has already dimmed. I will not therefore hear the hon the Leader of the Opposition oppose any item in the draft Consititution because he accepted it in toto . Will you say " Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof " or will you allow me to expatiate? MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman and hon members, when we broke up at lunch-time I did indicate that there were matters on which this House should be taken into the confidence of this Government. There has been a statement given to the Press by leaders who have thought otherwise than we think. There has been a tendency to move towards desperation and intolerance, and one is moved to think that in development these people have lost the main namely , goodwill amongst the objective of development different race groops of South Africa. I want to state quite clearly and specifically that this side of the House is committed to a policy of goodwill . . . M/FINANCE : Hear, hear. MR GUZANA: ... that this side of the House will not at any time now nor in the future seek to choke the economic development not only of the Transkei but of the Republic, and therefore we are in line with the statement issued by Chief Minister Mangope and the Chief Justice in Hamburg when they met with this cirticism. Let us state quite clearly that the more investment we have from overseas, from international bodies, the greater will be the good that will filter down to the non-white groups in South Africa; that as these investments increase and are diversified in industry, factories and commerce, as they open up more job opportunities, as they provide learning facilities, so does the black man grow to become a productive and an essential part of the economic community of South Africa, including all homelands. Were investment to be withheld from South Africa we would find that the Blalcks are the first to feel the financial strangulation of such a measure . Those cuntries which have shown goodwill towards the Transkei, towards South Africa, need to be encouraged to continue to show that goodwill, and so when we seek to call ourselves a democratic country we must manifest this in our legislative institutions fully, so that at no time can it be said that you are half democratic, half tribal in your legislative bodies. Ifwe do not watch this part of the Constitution we may well give leverage to those who seek to criticize in order to break down what is happening. I am only hoping that when the governing party opted for independence it was not doing so because of desperation, because it felt that the situation in South Africa was unchangeable, because blood is thicker than water. If we are convinced or if we state that white South Africa has refused to give human dignity and liberty and political rights to Blacks because blood is thicker than water and that we have had to move out in desperation from the Republic, then what argument have we if, on the other hand, someone were to say to us : Because you are a black man in the Transkei and because blood is thicker than water you will have to discriminate against minority groups ? If indeed the creation of an independent state is the result of white intolerance towards Blacks, then in a black state you are going to find the same thing - black intolerance towards Whites . If that is the motivation and the reasoning then we basically reject that principle and the concept which has given birth to the independence of the Transkei. All change, be it constitutional, political, economic or social, is intended to bring the different race groups together to form a heterogeneous population of one country. If constitutional change means emphasis on race division then we reject it, and it is my hope and conviction that Transkeian-ism is not going to override South African patriotism, which should be burning in the heart of every man, be he black, white, pink or yellow. Here 1 think we have a responsibility not only to ourselves, but to South Africa, to throw a good image to the outside world. We can only do that if we retain our South African patriotism. Not so long ago President Houphouet-Boigny issued in Paris to the hon the Chief Minister an invitation to tour Africa and meet the Presidents of the various African States to tell them what it is all about, and if this constitutional development is not morally correct basically, if we have things about which we feel a bit dubious, then the hon the Chief Minister will have to be apologetic when he meets these Presidents of African States. I agree with the hon the Chief Minister that the Transkei will follow the capitalist principle but that we will have capitalism with a conscience , and I wish this Government would do something to prick that conscience so that it manifests itself in benefits, gifts to the public for social benefits, for bursaries, for education , donations to welfare organizations. That is capitalism with a conscience. MR H D MLONYENI : Mr Chairman and hon members, this side of the House is not concerned with the roundabout
gymnastic movements of the whimsical Leader of the Opposition. A moment ago he said this Government was a Government of racists, forgetting that even in the Bible itself Moses was a racist, Samson himself, with all the might he had, was a racist. (Laughter) So this side of the House is not going to concern itself with his will-o'-the-wisp about discrimination, because the hon the Chief Minister said we would have discrimination in the Transkei over our dead bodies so why go on about it? Now, I am particularly keen to know why the hon member for Engcobo is suddenly right upstairs, though a decrepit individual downstairs, and as a leader of a splinter defunct group he should listen to the last days of the policy speech of the hon the Chief Minister before independence. He must not go and mislead the Engcobo people about the lack of South African patriotism, because we don't concern ourselves now with that type of patriotism. We are concerned with the flag of the Transkei and the patriotism behind the flag of the Transkei. A moment ago that side of the House - you will remember yourse.f, Mr Chairman - concerned itself with personnel which had been chosen by this side of the House. I am going to refer to that type of personnel. The dedicated men who have been sent overseas so that they can represent this country overseas were labelled as "What type of men are these ?" The personnel of the Defence Force of the Transkei has been referred to as a type of army that would go and fight in Timbucktoo. The personnel of the people who work in all these offices here of the Public Service Commission these people too are referred to as riffraff. What a shame! I am saying this in this House today because none of these young boys and girls in these offices should think it is the fault of Matanzima that they are not where they are monetarily, because three hundred years ago they were regarded as smelling like polecats, and, Mr Chairman, despite the fact that the Opposition has got the smell of Bodymist they are still not accepted in Pretoria. (Laughter) Mr Chairman, I implore you - we want the Transkei to understand that these young boys who serve the Transkei for security purposes as soldiers, we want them to defend their country, the Transkei. We are happy to see that the Daily Dispatch splashed how trim , how fine, how smart they were on the opering day of this parliament . I only hope they have not heard the villifications, the denigrations from that side of the House that will one day want their own protection. The hon the Minister of the Interior may excuse me. You said that side of the House was a bunch of cowards women. They should indeed have Scottish kilts because we want to see what they have underneath . Now Mr Chairman, I will leave it to those who sent me on this side of the House to indicate precisely what the Chief Minister's points mean to the people of the Transkei, how important they are and now the contribution by the Opposition in this House has been impotent . I do not think it is within my sphere here to talk about people who talk of a Christian level here, who talk about about people who talk elsewhere. The hon the Chief Minister has done that, but I think to all those who profess religion I do think their duty is right at the threshold of their own churches and they can leave politics aside, because we here do not meddle with them, we do not bedevil them. All we say is Miserere Domini and all the leaders who belong to this country we are not concerned whether they are over the Umzimvubu or any other river, we are concerned with the leaders here in the Transkei the chiefs and the people who follow those leaders . In conclusion I must state unequivocally I am born and bred in a country south of the equator, my brethren are as black as two midnights put together (Laughter) but we shall never forego our right to this country of ours. We are not concerned with what happens in the White House, we are not concerned with what happens in Whitehall, we are not concerned with what happens in India or Natal -- we are concerned with the future of our own children whose fathers shed their blood for this territory, and I must rally in my very humblest of positions — the position of being a servant and my message is that my people to his own people in the Transkei should rally to the leadership of the hon the Chief Minister, Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima, and those who serve him loyally, and beyond that it will be written as a heritage on his epitaph that he came from under spoliation . He stood and spoke and delivered the Transkei of the Transkeians to the Transkeians for their own salvation, and not his. Lastly, I must quote for the sake of those who are understanding, here and outside, that here history is being made before independence, and I am going to define what history means and say that by history I mean a series of events which are either written down or narrated, and which depict the progress of a nation. That is history. As I have said, whether we have writers
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who are for us or who are aginst us, beyond Matamzima the Transkei will lift up its head to the skies, to the God who will deliver us. Thank you, Mr Chairman. D/ CHAIRMAN : Hon members, I just want to sound a warning. It is quite unpleasant for the Chair to have to call a speaker to order but what I seem to discern now is that quite a number of speakers are very fond of digression. Please stick to Vote No. 1 and the policy speech of the hon Minister. MR L L MGUDLWA : Mr Chairman and hon members, clearly I am touched at this mark of respect. I crave your indulgence accordingly, Mr Chairman. First and foremost, Mr Chairman, I have to thank the hon the last Chief Minister of this House for his policy speech (Laughter) because he will never be any Chief Minister in time again. Until you die you will never become Chief Minister again . I have to quote the late Bernard Shaw, who was a poet. He says the most anxious man in the prison is not the prisoner himself, but the warder. (Laughter) Hence I see how anxious the hon the Chief Minister has been in his speech, in that he is the warder of the funds of this small State which is to be a State, if it is a State at all. He has told us about overseas emissaries. That has cost this State money, if not the Republican Government. I wonder, Mr Chairman, with all due respect and honour to you, if that was worth it. Why I say that is because the Transkei as it is is supposed to be on the threshold or on the verge of independence. The Transkei is not economically viable as a self-governing state, as it is at this stage. Why should priorities not be taken into account according to precedent ? (Interjections) I say so because, in fact, those things should have come after independence. There are so many things we have been told in this House -- that such-and-such a thing will happen after independence, this and that will happen after independence - but we wonder if those things will happen, in fact. We are so Independence Day drunk today that we don't know where we are. I should rather independence should come before my death in fact. M/FINANCE : The people of Engcobo want independence. MR MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman, Sir, with all due respect, this independence which is inherited from the Republican Government, with its policy of separate development, is so much anathema to me and to the world at large ... M/FINANCE : What do the people of Engcobo say? MR/MGUDLWA: Even though the hon the Chief Minister asks me what the people of Engcobo say, you know what they have said to you many times. M/FINANCE : But you were defeated at the last elections. MR MDUGLWA: I have not lost my seat . I am still here. If that is not an untruth it is a half truth. (Laughter) M/FINANCE : But you lost the by election at Engcobo. MR/MGUDLWA: That does not matter. I did not lose the clection. M/FINANCE : The people of Engcobo said in no uncertain terms that they want independence, even if you do not want it. MR MGUDLWA: Independence as defined by the Republican Government is no independence as far as Lamwell Lamyeni Mgudlwa is concerned . (Laughter) M/FINANCE : To what party do you belong? MR MGUDLWA : Accept that, hon Minister, because it is the truth I say now, and nothing but the truth, so help me, God. Mr Chairman, with all the respect I have for the Chair, the other day M/FINANCE : No-one is listening to you. MR MGUDLWA: Yes, in fact they are listening to me with open ears. D/CHAIRMAN : Address the Chair, please. MR MGUDLWA: As a result of the policy which has given birth to this independence the hon the Chief Minister has talked about in his policy speech, I want to refer to an article that was in the Daily Dispatch on Friday, 2 April this year, where it said that in the homelands there are 84 black doctors . Imagine, 84 black doctors in the homelands ! How many are there in the Transkei ? There are about nine or ten. M/FINANCE : The Transkei is not a homeland, this is a state. MR MGUDLWA: What about 26 October? Less than one-fifth of the 400-odd doctors practising in the nine homelands are black. Imagine that! M/FINANCE: What has that to do with this Vote? This is not the Department of Health. MR MGUDLWA: No, but in fact this is the truth and truth is the truth. M/FINANCE : The Health Vote is coming.
MR MGUDLWA: No, I am not interested in that. I am interested in the pinpricks of your policy speech. This was revealed in the House of Assembly by the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development - your boss. M/FINANCE: When you joined the civil service he employed you, didn't he? MR MGUDLWA: When Mr M C Botha replied to a question by Mr van Zyl Slabbert the Minister said ... M/FINANCE: Your time is up. MR MGUDLWA: You are not the Chairman. Keep quiet, Mr Chief Minister for the last time. The Minister said that 84 black and 398 white doctors were practising in the homelands. In the Transkei which is due to gain its independence later this year there are 30 black and 53 white doctors, and in the Ciskei there are 3 black and 15 white doctors. Can you then imagine how we will meet independence when in fact we have nothing? Surely, I would advise him, even whatever portfolio he may have in my Cabinet ... (Interjections) I would advise him, whatever portfolio as a Minister that to table to the House a speech of this nature he must be something, firstly, of a prophet, if he is to inspire the people he is leading; and he must be something of a disciplinarian to be able to control his team to do whatever they are entrusted with. He must also be something of a diplomat if he has to guide the team. M/FINANCE : What are you .eading? MR MGUDLWA: I am reading SASO. (Laughter) MR M P LUDIDI : Mr Chairman and hon members, the hon the Minister of Finance has made his remarks on the slice that the budget allocates to his department and I am going to review one of his department's programmes, assessing its cost and relating it to the financial resources. The item I am concerned with is subhead G, under which a sum of R46 600 has been provided for carrying out or supplementing local government programmes. The activities of regional and tribal authorities are causing some concern in certain public circles, and in some cases this House has been asked to intervene by way of resolutions. In 1974, if I am not mistaken, an important motion was introduced in this House by the hon member for Cala. The consensus of opinion was that the road services rendered by the tribal authorities were inadequate. The motion called for the Government to take over roads leading to schools, Great Places, clinics, trading stores and other places of importance. As far as the performance of road services is concerned, tribal authorities enjoy a subsidy from the Department of the Chief Minister and Finance, and this grant is provided for under item G. 2 of the Estimates of Expenditure. According to the provisions of the Transkeian Authorties Act of 1965 and of the regulations framed under the same Act, tribal authorities are free to prepare and submit draft estimates for a number of services, including roads. Then it does become a matter of concern as to why tribal authorities are keen to hand over this service. Without further details, it is pretty obvious there is a little problem about which generalizations are not safe and which can be studied by the department and a proper solution to it made by the department. Not very long ago this House unanimously adopted a motion sponsored by the hon chief from Tsomo, Chief Nkwenkwezi. The motion stated very well the problems that attend communication between tribal authorities and government departments, and again, on page 6 of the Report of the Controller and Auditor-General, there has been much savings on item G on the part of the Tribal authorities. The report reads : "Saving due mainly to fewer applications for grants having been received as tribal authorities had not collected their share of the costs of building clinics." These, Mr Chairman, are a few examples I may quote and we are requesting the hon the Chief Minister and Minister of Finance to help us in this respect. Let me now focus my attention on item G. 1. This portion caters for regional authority programmes. The money provided there is R28 400. I suppose it is a government grant to supplement regional authority own financial resources. While this grant is highly necessary and therefore worthy of our unanimous approval, there are a number of issues to raise, Mr Chairman. First of all, the superivsory function of the regional authorities — that is, their supervision over the activities of tribal authorities in terms of the Act - needs to be examined with a view to bringing it up to a certain degree of efficiency. Of more consequence, however, is the work of the regional authority itself. Most of their duties are executed quite well . However, there is a concern over the position relating to dipping services which may not be directly covered by the grant of R28 400 - I don't know. Most of the regional authorities seem to be over-willing to hand over the responsibility of dipping services. This alone, I feel, is a great pointer to something as yet unclear. Regional authorities
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have saved tremendously, as we can see on pages 33 to 35 of the Report of the Controller and Auditor-General, as if these authorities knew and prepared for the world economic recession, yet dipping foremen are making endless demands for better salaries. Sir, this House should approve of the sum voted for under item G. At the same time we must request the department to observe the workings of the lower authorities because these authorities are indispensable constituent parts in the totality of the government administration. Before I sit down, I wish to quote a ridiculous parable which is told and which is drawn to indicate the indispensable rôle of the lower authorities. It is said one day the mouth boasted about its importance as a member of the whole body. The eyes boasted about their indispensability; the stomach, the feet, the nose, the arms, the gullet and the head all took their turn, until the lower opening ofthe bowls stood up and said : "You have boasted too much, and I shall prove to you my own importance in practical terms." Then it became blocked and the stomach became constipated, the head ached, the mouth became dry, the whole body became weak. (Laughter) Well, Mr Chairman, the point here is not to equate the tribal authorities with that lower opening. You missed the point if you think so. The moral is that as the lower organs are important and indispensable to the body, so are the tribal or lower authorities important and indispensable to the Government. Therefore, Mr Chairman, we do well to request very humbly the Department of the Chief Minister and Finance to be as much concerned with the administration of the lower authorities as possible. After independence I feel tribal and regional authorities will have to play a very, very important rôle in the development of the Transkei. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR P N NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to make a few remarks on this policy speech. Today I want to draw the attention of the House to the fact that we have some soldiers and it is desirable that these soldiers should be registered . After the 19141918 war and the subsequent war, the soldiers were just neglected. Some of the soldiers died leaving widows, and there is nobody who cares for their widows. I now stand up to speak on behalf of our present soldiers. These soldiers should have adequate protection because they will be called up to do certain duties. No-one should think they will be confined to Umtata. They will have to go even abroad when the circumstances demand. They will have to occupy trenches and that will have a bad effect on their health. MR E DYARVANE : Mr Chairman, on a point of order, I wish to draw the attention of the hon member to the policy speech of the hon the Minister of the Interior in which she says the position of war veterans who qualify for war pensions is being reviewed. I take it, Mr Chairman, that the hon member is out of order if he says the Government does not take any notice of war veterans. MR NKOSIYANE : Nothing will ever be put right if people listen to that jackal. D/CHAIRMAN: Withdraw that word, hon member. MR NKOSIYANE : I withdraw the word, Mr Chairman. I am talking about people who meet difficulties. No-one will ever achieve anything without telling the truth. When you speak about something, you must speak about what you have done personally. I want to stress this one fact that these soldiers should be given all promotion from lance corporal to corporal, to staff sergeant and sergeant-major and then to full lieutenant. They must become majors, colonels and even brigadiers and major-generals, and there must be an officer commanding the army here. He should first be sent out for training. Now we are waiting for independence and the Government should see to it that our people who are in the labour centres are not driven out from such centres because of the coming independence, to come and stay in the Transkei. We should not receive the same treatment meted out to the Malawian citizens . When Malawi was going to get its independence they were told to leave this country. Those employers who do not favour the independence of the Transkei will automatically fire all their employees. I wish the Government to make note of that so that these people are not expelled from their work on account of independence. If they remain at their places of employment our citizens will rejoice. If it be necessary for them to celebrate they might as well do so at their places of employment. Those people who were permanently in Johannesburg should not discard their rights . When we were given self-rule people were ill-treated. How much more will they be ill-treated when we are granted independence . MR BP VAPI : Mr Chairman and hon members, I want to ask the hon member for Mqanduli if he is aware of the 265.
fact that this House is going to sit here until midnight tonight. I humbly urge him if has anything to say to come out with facts, and if he has nothing to say he must sit down. CHAIRMAN : Hon members, it has been indicated to me that Vote 1 has been thoroughly canvassed by this House, so in the premises we shall call upon the hon the Minister of Finance to reply. Mr Chairman and hon members, I M/FINANCE : merely stand up to pay tribute to the hon members of this House for the constructive criticisms which they have levelled in relation to the policy speech of the Minister of Finance. In doing so I wish to assure the hon the Leader of the Opposition that the Transkei is so sophisticated that it will maintain its integrity amongst the nations of the world in so far as the maintenance of democratic institutions are concerned . We have for centuries been under the influence of Western democracy and as such we are so used to the democratic way of life that we feel it is part and parcel of us. Mr Chairman, I think the world as a whole has noticed the spirit which has existed between the hon members of both sides of the House - the fraternal spirit which has shown we are above many of the so-called civilized countries of the world, and this is a compliment to black South Africa as a whole, barring what is taking place in other parts of budding States who are emulating the Transkei. There can be no proper government, no proper parliament, without an effective Opposition . We liken an Opposition to a shock absorber in a car. During the whole twelve years I have been head of the Transkeian Government I have been so amused with the criticisms of the Opposition, to such an extent that I even found myself happy at the hands of the hon member for Engcobo. (Laughter) And, Mr Chairman, I wish to assure the hon members across the floor that whoever is Minister of Defence will take cognizance of the necessity for the appointment of a person who will look after the religious interests of our young men . This officer will certainly look after the interests of the hon member for Engcobo when he takes his turn in joining the army for the period that will be assigned to him, (Laughter) because I doubt if he ever went to church at all. With regard to the bilateral agreements which the hon the Leader of the Opposition has referred to, I wish to assure him that these agreements will be in the interests of both the Republic and the Transkei as neighbouring states, and these are agreements which you usually find in all states which are friendly to one another. They are international agreements. For example, the Transkei has got to enter into an agreement with the Republic relating to the employment of Transkeian citizens in the Republic of South Africa, and vice versa - an agreement relating to the movement of Transkeian citizens and the Republican citizens in the Transkei, as we shall be having a common border. There should be agreements concerning the utilization of water resources of common interest. I am just citing a few matters which I think will be of interest both to the Republic and the Transkei, and there may be more of these which will be postponed for the consideration of the future Government of the independent Transkei. Of course, this House will be informed about all these matters. I wish to assure the hon members that the question of citizenship will receive our acute consideration. The provisions which you find in this clause are for the interest of the particular individual who wants to be a citizen of a country . We the Daily Dispatch and don't want to please the Press the other papers which criticize the Government. We shall also attend to the improvement of labour relations between the Transkei and the Republic. With regard to the clause in the Constitution about additional land, that is a constitutional clause which explains that whatever land is infor excluded in the Transkei will be part of Transkei ample, Port St John's area, which was a white area, will be purchased by the Bantu Trust, and also the farms in the Matatiele district, Elliot district and Maclear and Queenstown. Those are farms which will be purchased by the Bantu Trust in those areas. Mr Chairman, I was very happy about the remarks of the hon the Leader of the Opposition with regard to the normalization of the relations between the Transkei and the highly developed States that may want to bring investments into our country. I have been informed by the hon the Minister of Justice that during his tour of France and Germany he found many industrialists who were so anxious to come to the Transkei because of the normal atmosphere, the friendly atmosphere which exists amongst the people of the Transkei. As a result of our peaceful co-operation with the Republic of South Africa in attaining our goal, we are making many friends overseas. I also wish to associate myself with the sentiments expressed by the hon the Leader of the Opp sition
in congratulating the two hon Ministers who went abroad, in trying to normalize relations between the Transkei and overseas industrialists . With regard to the remarks of the hon member for Maluti relating to lower authorities, I want to assure him that the Transkeian Government will regard the regional authorities as provincial authorities, and tribal authorities as local authorities, and shall assist them in their budgets, but these authorities shoulld understand that if they are to get the assistance of the Government they should maintain their own treasuries and use the money they have in terms of the regulations .. MR K M GUZANA : Otherwise they will go into the rubbish bin. M/FINANCE : Yes, but as things are now, some of the authorities never have anything recorded, although they have cases daily where people are fined. The money goes down the drain and they expect the Government to finance them. Now, this is very important. In any local authority the treasury of that authority looks after its finances properly and keeps proper books of account . The Government will assist these lower authorities with projects which are in the interests of the people. Mr Chairman, with those few remarks I move that Vote 1 of the Estimates be accepted, with the amendment to which I referred in my speech, so that the R40 000 under subhead G. 2 should be deleted in these Estimates of Expenditure. In any case, it does not appear in the main column at all. I move accordingly, Mr Chairman. The sum of R3 029 000 in respect of Vote 1 , Department of the Chief Minister and Finance, was passed to stand part of the Schedule. POLICY SPEECH :
MINISTER OF EDUCATION
Mr Chairman, hon Paramount Chiefs and hon members. One of the major tasks of Education for developing people is to release the intellectual and practical potential of their youth so that they could take their places in their communities and provide the leadership required by modern society at all levels of life . My department has 3 main objectives towards the fulfilment of this aim, viz :- differentiated system of education, supply of free books to pupils and the development of a sound vocational and technical education. My Department offers a system of education that has courses covering almost all fields that make up the complete life requirements of man. It will be recalled that at its very first sitting the T.L.A. clamoured for an improved standard of education and strongly suggested that the Transkei should revert to the old Cape syllabus. Investigations revealed that the Cape Education syllabus had undergone such drastic changes that core syllabuses had been adopted. Eventually 1975 saw the launching of the twelveyear structure of education in the Transkei long before any other Homeland in the R.S.A. had ventured on such a scheme for blacks . My predecessor in her policy speech in 1973 dealt at length with plans for the implementation of the 12-year structure. I do not propose to repeat what was said then but would like very briefly to remind hon members of the composition of the 12-year structure. It is made up of four three-year phases, viz :- the Junior Primary, the Senior Primary, the Junior Secondary and the Senior Secondary. In the Primary phases the task of the teacher is to create situations which enable pupils to acquire modes at thinking through topics of interest rather than through subjects in the traditional sense. The concentration is on intellectual and personal skills as well as attitudes that will lay the foundation and provide tools for further learning. The Junior Secondary phase is a stage at which diversification is introduced and a pass at this level is a pre-requisite for admission to vocational, technical, agricultural, commercial and academic senior secondary courses and schools. The first external examination at the Standard 7 stage was written in 1975. Examinations for all standards below standard 7 are internal and controlled by Circuit Offices. In 1976 all external and internal examinations will be written on the New Structure including the Standard X examination. My department is investigating the possibility of laying emphasis on class records for promotion purposes instead of basing our criterion for promotion purely on the end of the year examinations. This idea is in keeping with modern trends in Education. At the beginning of Standard VIII the pupils have to choose the subjects or field of study for the important 3year Senior Secondary Phase . At the end of Standard X they have to choose a career or course of study at a Uni-
versity or College . In this system of Education it is worth noting that provision is made for the slow learners by means of a Practical Course which is offered in some of our Schools. In 1975 the bulk of the Standard VI Schools were upgraded to the J.S.S. status by granting them Standard 7. The number ofJunior Secondary Schools to date is 1 034. This figure includes 31 Junior Secondary Schools in the districts of Glen Grey and Herschel that have recently been annexed to the Transkei. Mr Chairman, I wish to point out that the implementation of the 12-year structure has brought many problems in its train. The problem of getting suitably qualified teachers to man these schools still remains acute. The 794 addi tional posts which are estimated for the 1976/77 financial year fall far short of our requirements. A careful study of the figures in the attached annexure A is convincing evidence of the teacher-shortage in the schools. My department is mindful of the findings and recommendations of the K-N-N Commission Report about the low standard of education in the schools. The planning section of the department has embarked on intensive in-service training courses for teachers in subjects such as Science, Mathematics and Social Sciences. The department is engaging specialist Inspectors and teachers at central and remote places in the Transkei for the courses. A sereis of such courses has been planned for 1976 ; and they are in progress now. My depar ment is also conducting a survey on the number of teachers engaged in Junior Secondary classes who are studying to fulfil the requirements of the Senior Certificate examination. Matric is the minimum academic requirement for teaching in Junior Secondary schools . In the not too far distant future the entrance qualification to our teacher training schools will be matric. Vocational and Technical Education: According to leading Educationists and psychologists, two-thirds of the school population should be prepared for vocational, technical and industrial education. The Transkei is fast becoming industrialised and in order that we should provide the manpower needed by our industries, my department is paying special attention to technical education. All courses at our vocational schools are well attended and the results are most satisfying. With the necessary instructors being available my department is considering introducing more courses. The further development of the Technical School in Umtata to cater for the training in technical directions after Matric is also being considered. With the aid of the Gold-Fields group a training centre is being erected at Teko for the training of building workers in crash courses of approximately 13 weeks' duration. A start has already been made to introduce Secretarial courses at the Night School of the Umtata Technical School. Mr Chairman and honourable members, I wish to touch briefly on the teaching of Science and Mathematics, as these two seem to be regarded as a nightmare by both teacher and pupil in our schools. Science teaching is seriously handicapped by a great dearth of suitably qualified teachers and to a lesser extent by the lack of enough well equipped laboratories. My department has done much to put right the deficiencies in regard to laboratories ―― (1) All new Senior Secondary School buildings planned include provision for modern science laboratories (Biology and / or Physical Science), (ii) During the past year almost 1000 Mobile Laboratories were ordered and most of these have been delivered to schools. These mobile units are of sturdy metal construction and are intended to provide science teachers in the Junior Secondary schools with the bare essentials of a Science Laboratory. The supply of apparatus, laboratory glassware and chemicals to schools will receive special attention this year. A scheme is being worked out whereby schools will be able to order these requirements as and when the need arises and with due regard to the special needs of particular schools. (iii) Another subject which is beginning to baffle our teachers is Geography. It (as part of the Social Studies Course) is now a compulsory subject in the Junior Secondary Schools up to Standard 7. Modern Geography favours the systematic approach and leans heavily on scientific methods and tends towards quantitative, rather than purely qualitative description of phenomena. This new approach requires adjustment on the part of our education authorities and schools as well . When new schools are planned, the Education authorities and architects will have to consider the provision of special Social Science Rooms (or Geography laboratories) : My department is at the moment considering the establishment of a Social Science Centre in one of its Training Schools. Our thanks go to the BP Company that has generously donated 266.
the sum of R20 000 for use in embarking on this project. Mr Chairman and honourable members, I am quite certain that after this exposition it is clear to all of you that an In-service Training Centre for Teachers is a matter of must in my department. Remember that education is not static but dynamic — it is undergoing changes almost every day. If our teachers are to keep pace with these changes the establishment of an in-service training centre should receive absolute priority. In other education systems it forms the pillar on which the department leans for development. To my mind an inservice-training centre is a sine qua non of any up-to-date system of education. My department is paying special attention to this project. The problem of suitably qualified Science Teachers is an ever present bugbear of practically every department of education in South Africa. The needs of the Junior Secondary Schools are vast and, practically, our only source of supply is the Cicira Training College where approximately 20 teachers qualified to teach Science up to Standard 8 are produced each year. If we were to take into account the other streams the ratio stands as follows :: C : B A 5 : 2 : 1 Explanation: A stream Languages and Social Sciences B 99 - Science and Mathematics C Commercial subjects 99 It is a sad commentary, however, that demands of the Senior Secondary Schools draw heavily upon this meagre supply as very few Science graduates from Universities enter the teaching profession to take up posts as teahcers of Physical Science or Biology in standards 8, 9 and 10. My department is considering, as from 1977, introducing a Senior Secondary Teachers Course at Cicira Training College. This is a one-year Specialist Course in two school subjects up to Matric level for teachers and students who have completed the Junior Secondary Teachers Course successfully. Although these groups will initially be small the training of these teachers will alleviate the shortage of teachers in the Senior Secondary classes. I wish to mention further that arrangements are afoot for the conversion of Bensonvale Institution into a pure Training School. The Senior Secondary School classes will be transferred to Mehlomakulu and Sterkspruit Senior Secondary Schools. Earlier on in this speech I made reference to differentiation in our schools. May I point out that in the Senior Secondary School phase scholars are allowed to follow courses of their choice . This choice of course is dependent on many factors one of these being aptitude. Many a scholar has had to leave school as a drop-out due to persistent failures. My department is well aware of these frustrating failures which have over a number of years been very prominent in our examination results. My department is concerned about the raising of standards in our schools. In order to achieve this objective a section of Psychological services has been established in my department. Our thanks go to the Department of Bantu Education which has graciously seconded an Organiser of Psychological Services to my department to launch this scheme. Mr M T Tonjeni, an experienced school counsellor, assumed duty here on 1.2.76. I am sure you will agree with me that it will be asking for too much if we were to expect this officer to cover this vast territory of the Transkei alone in this new section . Treasury has approved the creation of 6 posts of Teacher Counsellors. These officers will visit schools and administer standardised tests developed by the Human Sciences Research Council . The aim of the tests is:(a) to give the teacher a better understanding of the pupils he is handling in his class ; (b) to answer the question - how do my pupils compare with other pupils of the same standard in the country?; (c) to be used for remedial teaching where there are signs that in certain subjects the pupils' achievements are below par ; (d) most important they will determine the aptitude of the pupils which will in turn as mentioned above guide them in their choice of career. Tests have been prepared for the following standards: 4, 6, 8, 10 and P.T.C. classes. The Standard 10 tests give information to universities which can be used at the first year level in conjunction with the results of the Matriculation Examination for the purpose of guidance in respect of courses and choice of subjects . The tests therefore serve as an objective, reliable and valid aid in the guidance of pupils in respect of subject occupational choice. They also provide an indication of a pupil's 267.
(a) (b) (c) (d)
general intellectual ability. level of achievement in the official languages, level of mathematical ability, and level of spatial ability.
The service makes provision for vocational guidance as well. Vocational guidance is concerned primarily with helping individuals make decisions and choices involved in decisions and choices necessary in planning a career effecting satisfactory vocational adjustment. Guidance itself is a process through which pupils are assisted to help themselves concerning their future. The child, however, has all the democratic right to make the final choice of occupation I wish to say a few words on the establishment of two Agricultural High Schools which my department is planning. The Transkei is blessed with vast hectares of rich arable land. The economy of the Transkei will be boosted if full use of the land is made. These two Senior Secondary Schools will produce students who will proceed to the University of Fort Hare to further their studies in the Faculty of Agriculture. In this way we shall be assured of experts, who will come back to the Transkei to guide our people on how best the soil can be used. I am aware that this will be an expensive project. The initial costs may be very high. (My department, therefore, intends approaching the Department of Agriculture and Forestry with a request for one of these High Schools to be attached to the Tsolo School of Agriculture.) If our request is accepted we shall save much money which would otherwise have had to be used in buying livestock for study by scholars. The hon members here present will agree with me when I say that the Black people of this country are endowed with beautiful voices. This is a fact which has been acknowledged by a number of renowned musicians in this country and abroad. My department is keen to have this quality exploited to the full. The post for an Organiser of Music is to be created as soon as funds are available. It will be the duty of this officer to encourage young men and women to take up music seriously. Those with a special gift in the subject will be encouraged, through scholarships, to proceed to Fort Hare University to further their studies in Music. It is further my intention to arrange for the creation of a post - P.T.C. or J.S.T.C. special course in Music at one of the Training Schools. Mr Chairman and hon members, may I remind you that my department does not cater for children only, it looks after the adults as well. The year 1975 completed a period of 3 years since Adult Education in the form of Literacy Campaign was started . During this period the people of the Transkei have shown a wonderful thirst for education. Illiterate adults have come in their numbers to enrol in the adult schools established in the various districts of the Transkei. Several meetings were held on request by Chiefs, Ministers of Religion and Womens' Organisations. At these meetings the Planner for Cultural Affairs addressed the people on the programme and establishment of Adult Schools. From these meetings emerged the formation of committees to manage newly established Adult Schools in those areas. Through Literacy Teacher Training Courses organised by the Planner for Cultural Affairs a total of 320 teachers have been trained since 1973. The total number of new literates since the scheme was launched is 5 020. In view of the great demand for the learning of the illiterate section of our community an increase in the number of schools and scholars in 1976 is anticipated. The number of teaching hours has been increased from 4 to 6 per week now that English has been added to the curriculum and the duration of the learning period has been pushed up to 6 months. A new development is the cry for the introduction of continuation classes from the new literates and other people who wish to further their studies. As a result of this, 6 applications for the establishment of Night Schools for Adults have been submitted to my department for consideration. The section of Adult Education seems to be expanding at a very fast pace. In order that we may keep pace with this expansion we shall have to consider an increase of staff for this section. Mr Chairman and hon members, I now turn to my Department's Estimates of Expenditure for the year ending 31 March 1977. It will be observed from the printed estimates that my Department continues to enjoy the highest priority in the Government Budget - a feature for which I am grateful. But, considering the enormous financial demands on my Department as presented earlier in this speech, and reducing the sum voted to a per capita basis, I submit that it compares most unfavourably with that provided for White, ' Coloured and Indian Education in the Republic of South Africa. My Department has to cater for 2351
schools, 584 381 pupils and 11 493 teachers, yet the amount provided is only R24 884 000. However, I am aware, Mr. Chairman, that we are going through hard times. Inflation, like the winds of change, is sweeping throughout the world and my Government, it it is to remain responsible, has to join the fight against inflation by curtailing State expenditure. In the programmes ' section of the estimates there is a considerable rise in the expenditure on post primary education. This is the direct result of the introduction of the 12-year structure . The number of pupils entering post primary schools at Standard 5 has almost doubled ; the pupil/teacher ratio in post primary schools is much lower than in primary schools and instructional materials are liberally subsidised in junior secondary schools . These are the factors that, among other things, account for the steep rise in expenditure . On the contrary, a steady growth is maintained in the primary sector of education . Hence more or less the same amount as last year is provided . Mr Chairman , in view of the fact that the time is almost six o'clock and we should adjourn at six, and I am mindful of the fact that hon members not used to this session are feeling hungry, I would move that the Chairman reports progress . M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, I would have you report progress because I have a very important announcement to make and I cannot do so while the House is in committee. Agreed to. House Resumed The D/Chairman reported progress to the House. ANNOUNCEMENT M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman and hon members , I crave your indulgence to ask you to allow me to make a very important announcement. Agreed to. E : Mr Chairman M/JUSTIC , in the absence of the hon the Chief Minister it is with the greatest regret that I have received news from the hon the Paramount Chief of Qaukeni to the effect that his representative , who has been ill in hospital namely Mr E A Pinyane - passed away last night at 9 o'clock. However , obituaries will be made at an appropriate time. For the moment, I move that this House stands for a few seconds in order to show respect to the late member. The members stood in silence as a mark of respect to the late Mr E A Pinyane. The House adjourned until 7 p.m. EVENING SESSION
House in Committee POLICY SPEECH : MINISTER OF EDUCATION (continued) At this juncture, Mr Chairman, I am pleased to announce that the long awaited university has been established in the Transkei, initially under the auspices of Fort Hare and at no expense to my Department. Our youth have responded remarkably well and the university has a comfortable enrolment of 115 students. Highly commendable and indeed inevitable as this step is, especially on the eve of independence, hon members must ponder seriously on the financial implications when, in the near future, my Department will take over the control of the university. There can be no doubt that a great deal more funds will have to be found. Mr Chairman, it will be noted from the printed estimates that the provision of R24 884 000 represents an increase of R3 236 500 (14,5 %). The increase is rather slender and I propose to deal with both the credit and the debit sides of the situation. MR K M GUZANA : Mr Minister, will you compare the amount in the Estimates where the increase is given as R2 511 000 with the amount of R3 236 500 given by as the increase. I merely mention that so that you can reply to us later. M/EDUCATION : Subhead A, which provides for salaries, wages and allowances , shows an increase of R3 250400 which arises from the following : (a) the increased establishment resulting from the incorporation of Glen Grey and Herschel districts, (b) annual salary increments, (c) the creation of a post of Chief Inspector, (d) the creation of posts of deputy principal and senior assistants in the larger Senior Secondary and Training Schools,
(e) the upgrading of the salary structure for the translation services, ional staff resulting from the transfer of the control (f) addit of the Archives and Library services to the Department , and (g) 794 additional teaching posts. The above, Mr Chairman, are all indications that my department is virile and is sparing no effort to improve the services it is rendering to the nation . As you may have seen in the Press our Matric results still leave much to be desired and with the aim in view of reversing this appalling situation, my department has created the posts of Chief Inspector, deputy principals and Senior Assistants. Although there is a dearth of suitably qualified graduates to man our Senior Secondary Schools the Transkei is certainly not an exception in this regard. Industry and commerce are proving to be far more lucrative for the youth everywhere. It is hoped that with regular in-service training courses and effective guidance and supervision teachers will be re-orientated and geared for better productivity . It will be the main task of the Chief Inspector to set the inspectorate on its toes and in turn the inspectorate will set the teachers on their toes and deputy principals and senior assistants will ensure proper planning of the work and systematic execution of the day-to-day programmes by teachers in the areas of their control. The increase of R130 100 under Sub-head B — Subsistence and Transport is intended to defray expenses incurred in in-service training of teachers the demand of which has assumed inflated proportions in such subjects as Mathe matics, Science, English and Geography especially in junior and senior secondary schools. In addition , Mr Chairman , my department is negotiating for specialists to be attached to our Senior Secondary Schools for specific periods. It should please the members of this House to learn that the University of Fort Hare is already playing a significant note in updating teachers responsible for the Matric classes. In order to bring the Primary School Course in line with the core syllabi of the Joint Matriculation Board in use in Standards 5 to 10 in all Departments of Education in this country, it (Primary School Course) had to be revised. My sincere thanks go to the Faculty of Education of the University of Fort Hare for their assistance in this task. The increase under Subhead D will be taken up by the printing of the Primary School Course. It is with regret that on the debit side I have to report a decrease of R597 000 under Sub-head F - Supplies and Services. The much hoped for implementation of a full free book system in all classes from Sub A to Standard 10 has had to be postponed for the day when we shall have a healthier financial climate. This is the item where in action has hit us hardest. However , we shall continue with the free book system in Glen Grey and Herschel as they already enjoyed this facility before and we shall only be able to give the old Transkei partial relief in the purchase of text books in Standards 8, 9 and 10. Of course, provision is made to replenish the subsidised text books introduced last year in Standards 5, 6 and 7. Hon members will recall that in terms of section 22 (2) of the Transkei Education Act No. 9 of 1966, provision is made for the introduction of compulsory school attendance. Accordingly my Department made a submission to Cabinet in this regard. I am pleased to report that the matter has been accepted in principle. Once we can get over the hurdle of providing sufficient and suitable accommodation, the coast will be clear for the implementation of compulsory school attendance within a specified level of education. Equally regrettable is the disappearance of any provision under Sub-head J - Financial Assistance to State-Aided Special Schools for Capital Services. The implication here is that the erection of new buildings and extensions to existing ones will have to be halted. I am reliably informed that no undue hardship or disruption of services will result in the stoppage of these capital works. For a long time there has been a hue and cry about utterly unsatisfactory conditions obtaining in Methodist Church Hostels. The church authorities themselves have admitted that they can no longer carry the financial burden of maintaining the hostels. The Cabinet decided that they be taken over by the Department. The sum of R40 000 appearing under Sub-head K is the last instalment in the transaction. Finally, Mr Chairman, I stated last year that the Department was paying to the tune of 94 % the costs ofmaintaining Government hostels. By any criteria this could not be regarded as fair and proper. The escalating costs of commodities are common knowledge and for that reason fees payable at Government hostels have proportionally been
268.
Mr Chairman and hom members, I thank you for your attention and now move the adoption of Vote 3 of the es. Estimag M/AGRICULTURE : I second, Mr Chairman . MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman and hon members, one would have thought that with a Government concerned over the time factor the speeches would be brief and to the point. The hon the Minister of Education remarks under his breath that there was a lot of material. I would say you have rather skated over the surface of this thin ice quite successfully, without dipping into it. My trouble is that at the end of it all I cannot carry away any definite and clear impressions, and the hon the Minister of Education will no explain the discrepancy between the figures in his speech and the figures appearing in the Estimates of Expenditure. If hon members will look at page 1 of the Estimates of Expenditure you will notice that the increase is an amount of R2 511 000, and yet the figure given in the hon Minister's speech is R3 236 500. Then you go on to look at subhead A on page 18 of the Estimates. Under Salaries, Wages and Allowances the increase is R3 037 400, and yet in the polciy speech the amount given is R3 250 400. Because of inflated costs and the increase in fees at boarding schools the hon the Minister of Education indicates that bursaries under subhead G will have to be multiplied three times, but instead of seeing an increase in the Estimates as printed on page 18 under item G, you see a decrease of R100. When a Minister talks at cross purposes with his figures you don't know what to do. I suggested he should look into these figures and reconcile them, but he would not do so. I hope at a later stage the hon Minister will help us out with these figures and reconcile them. I am going to rush through inside fifteen minutes now. I am glad the Department of Education has accepted the principle of promotion from class to class rather than final examination passes at the end of the year. In other words, the work of the pupil for the year is taken into account in determining the pass at the end of the year. This will exclude chance passes and pupils turning into stock borers just before the exams. The Organizer of Psychological Services is a very necessary personnel in the Department of Education . Many a pupil has failed in the classroom because he has not been given direction, nor has he been advised, nor has his ability been tested by scientific psychological and intellectual tests to determine his leanings or his qualities either academic or technical. I would advise strongly that emphasis be laid on the use of this officer right in the classroom, to advise the pupils, to advise the parents, what their calling is. Let me state quite clearly that I, for one, and I think the Opposition and many hon members of the Government are sick and tired of this nibbling at in-service training. What we want is a school, an in-service training school, well established, well equipped with educational facilities relating to the different sciences, the different academic subjects, so that it becomes a running institution all the time, and into which the department draws all apparatus, all new scientific methods , all books relating to new developments in education, and have this in one central place with your expert trainers there. You have noticed, Mr Minister, to what useless purpose these in-service courses for a week or two weeks are to the teachers. Most of them drift and get lost in town. Some of them get very thirsty here and it takes a long time to gear a person into an educational pattern and to an educational commitment. It takes a long time. A student who goes to a school will spend about two or three months feeling around without settling down. How much more for a man who has left his wife and children behind when he is expected to learn for a week or two. His mind is still with his wife at home. Let the men come to this centre for six months him in here and produce something worth while. You call - x you don't to teach him a + b = ab, and when you saywalks trying away from know what you are to do. He this court much more confused than when he arrived there. Let me sound this warning about what is sometimes regarded as crash programmes , where a builder, a bricklayer is supposed to be a perfectly trained person inside six weeks, when in the normal course of events it takes him three years to qualify as a bricklayer. He is a dangerous quantity in the commercial world, because he is going to put up a building costing- R20 000 with the knowledge of three and what happens to the building ? It months' training sinks, it cracks. REV G T VIKA : Mr Chairman and hon members, I will similarly try to be as fast as possible, but I just want to give this example: When I was a policeman some time ago (Laughter) we used to joke with my colleagues when looking at a man walking on the street and state that we could arrest that man if we wanted to because no-one could
raised. Understandably the amount set aside for bursaries under Sub-head G will have to be almost trebled. ANNEXURE A.
Code: (1) = (2) (3) (4) =
TRANSKEI STATISTICS 1975/1976
Old Transkei . Herschel. Glen Grey. Total .
No. of
(1)
(2)
(4)
(3)
6011156
18
106 13 11
1 077 1 034 99 9 2 1 2 27
95
131
2 351
(1) 78 517 13 209 2 238 320 108 2 761 400
(2) 2 420 831 400
(3) 6 448 1467 233
(4) 87 385 15 507 2 871 320 108 3 384 400
510 886
31 156
42 339 584 381
No. of teachers in (1) 413 333 Primary schools .. 7 857 y Primar Schools .. 1950 J.S.S. S.S.S. 90 Training Schools 20 Vocational Schools 17 Comm. High Schools.. 44 Special Schools 60 Private Schools
(2) 26 882 369 124 60 12
(4) (3) 34 191 474 406 691 8 916 2 110 56 2.309 119 7 109 20 17 44 79
10 038
582
Primary Schools .. Junior Sec. Schools Senior Sec. Schools Training Schools Vocational Schools Comm. High Schools.. Special Schools Private Schools
905 1 003 83 7 2 1 2 22
2125
TOTALS No. of pupils in J.S.S. S.S.S. Training Schools Vocational Schools Commercial Schools Private Schools Special Schools
TOTALS
188548
TOTALS
··
623
-
18
873
11 493
ANNEXURE B-SENIOR CERTIFICATE SUMMARY EXAMINATION RESULTS : 1975 FForm III or Standard VIII No. Presented Passed % Pass.. No. Failed Percentage Failed
7 052 4 347 61,6 2 705 38,4
Classification of Passes PI-A .. PI-B PI-C PI-D P-D P-E P-EE
1 8 163 277 651 1.397 1 848
Form II or Standard VII No. Presented .. Distinction 1st Grade 2nd Grade .. Failed ..
26 150 S 659 17392 8 092
Results per subject Xhosa .. Afrikaans English.. Mathematics General Science ..
25 009 18 941 21 461 17 409 21 225
Senior Certificate No. Presented .. M-1 M S Failed Percentage Passes Percentage Failures
Passed
1 528 17 327 302 882 42,3 57,7 269.
say he was innocent. We could always find fault with someone. I think today the hon Leader of the Opposition is just trying to find fault with this department, because nothing in this world is perfect. What you should be doing is to try to help MR K M GUZANA: I have been constructive. I am helping now. REV VIKA:. .. instead of just breaking down as fast as you can. Mr Chairman, in my support of this policy speech I wish to state that the hon the Minister of Education today did rise to the occasion. In his policy speech he has tried to accept the challenge of the development in the Transkei. In fact, from the very opening paragraph one reads that one ofthe major tasks of education in the development of the people is to realise the intellectual and practical potential of their youth . . MR GUZANA: What does it convey to these people? Abstract thoughts . REV VIKA:. .. so that they can take their places in their communities and provide leadership at all levels of life. At least if this conveys nothing in words to the people here these people here know there is what is called a constitutional development of the Transkei and they do need people to man the departments of state. They do expect to know what is taking place, and this they cannot learn from an illiterate person. They can only get this from an educated person. Now, the Transkei at this moment needs trained persons at all levels and I say the Department of Education has provided this in this policy speech. All the departments of state must be manned by educated people. At this time and age we do not expect an illiterate man to be called the leader of a state. MR GUZANA: Look around you now. REV VIKA: I say "a leader of a state" and I don't need to look around. MR GUZANA: Everyone here is a leader. Look around . REV VIKA: Mindful of this fact the Department of Education has ventured into new fields and expanded the existing operations. I refer to the vocational and technical education mentioned in the policy speech. The introduction of secretarial courses, extension of provision for modern science laboratories, institution of adult education and so on. The hon the Leader of the Opposition has said something in connection with in-service training, etc, for teachers. I am not going to challenge what he has been saying, but I just want to plead with the department that if a centre of this nature should be established, why not extend it to other departments ? I wish to submit that any serious adult who leaves his home in order to learn something new cannot be treated as a boy who goes to school and spends three months trying to find his way. MR GUZANA: You only need to look at them when they are here and you will know the truth. REV VIKA: Even here there is a difference between the serious pupil and those who take life easy. The serious man, the elderly person, spends every minute, every hour, trying to assimilate what he can ... MR GUZANA: Some of them are behind you. REV VIKA: ... and I submit that if these in-service training courses are conducted once in every six years they would be more profitable if they were conducted, say, every three years. With regard to the establishment of agricultural high schools, I wish to state that I have some reservations on this . How different are the students who are going to be produced in these agricultural high schools from the students produced at Tsolo. School ofAgriculture? If the impression made by the students at Tsolo School of Agriculture is minimal, how differently is the Department of Education going to teach these students at their own high schools ? I think the problem we are facing as far as the product of the Tsolo School of Agriculture is concerned is both with the students and the Transkeian citizens. If the Transkeian citizen is not prepared to learn from a fellow who comes from the Tsolo School of Agriculture, will he be prepared to learn from a fellow who comes from an agricultural high school ? I understand that something has been mentioned, and we appreciate the progress made in this line of compulsory education, and we hope that this practice can be accelerated. (Interjections). Even planning is something. Now, I wish to go on to something which is not in the policy speech, and this is with regard to the building of hostels for senior secondary schools. It is the policy of the department to build these days a school plus a boarding hostel, but it is unfortunate that these senior secondary high schools which are existing without hostels carry on without any hostels, whereas the new ones have the hostel built at the same time as the school . It seems the department is not encouraging the people who have sacrificed and run their schools, spent their own moneys,
if when they have money they will build a hostel for a new school instead of for those who already have schools. I submit the department should consider, before building hostels for new schools, first of all building hostels for the older established senior secondary schools. My last point is on the question of salaries of Transkeian teachers. It is no use the department providing all these facilities if our own people are not prepared to forego high salaries for the sake of teaching their own children in the schools. MR K M GUZANA: I am sure, Mr Chairman and hon members, even the Department of Roads and Works would never employ a quickly trained person to put up their structures when they cost so much. Lest I forget, I want to encourage you in the establishment of agricultural high schools in spite of what the minister from Tsolo says. We need these schools almost in every region so that we can exploit the riches of the Transkei, which are the grass which feeds the stock, the soil which produces food, and therefore you have my full support and full encouragement for that programme. May our thanks through you, Sir, go to the BP Company which has made a donation of R20 000 towards the establishment of a special social science room or geography laboratory. We are happy to note that the department is concerned over the lack of laboratory equiphas introduced mobile laboratories to reach these schools. I am persuaded to believe that when Bensonvale Institution is made a training school centre the other two schools senior secondary schools will be funded sufficient to accommodate those students who are going to be turned away from Bensonvale. I am happy, Sir, that you have tumbled upon the fact that the African sings like the nightingale; that even without the artifices of training, without specifically putting him through the major or minor mode, without all the artifices of training voices they still sing melodiously, resonantly, musically and majestically, and I hope the Organizer of Music is not going to suffocate that talent by superimposing artifices of training, but rather let this music well out like a spring flowing from the bowels of the earth . M/EDUCATION: We are sending him to Fort Hare. MR GUZANA: You are sending him there. I have Leard his choir and I am sure they will be enriched at the hands of that great master, but I think you know that whilst the major scale is Doh, Re, Mi, Fah, Soh, Lah, Ti, Doh, the scale of the African singer has chromatics added to that which cannot be put into letters. and this is the distinguishing and enriching feature in African music. Let me say that the establishment of a branch of the University of Fort Hare is something not like we conceived . Let us be honest and say what we thought would start a university here is an institution whose origin, whose tradition was based on the concept of free education and higher learning, and that tradition or a free university is something sacrosanct which must be infused into this university in order to disabuse it of an ethnic connotation and an ethnic image. If you say you are going to take it over in the near future I wonder if that is not wishful thinking. I think probably you will take it over ten or fifteen years in the future. It is no use planning it for the third generation hence. Let the people of that age plan for their age. Let me say we are all agreed in principle that we should have compulsory education and I think the Cabinet accepted that principle long, long ago, but this is not going to come in the next year or next decade because there are so many relevant handicaps which we have to solve. All you say is that people have to rehabilitate before they start compulsory education as if the people of England had to rehabilitate before they sent their children to school. All I say is that we must train more teachers and let these teachers be diversified in their qualifications . May I ask the Department of Education , through you, to commit itself or its Sports Organiser to establishing sporting bodies for the boys and girls who are not at school . Those who are at school have the reachets to organise their sports but those who ate not at school are usually neglected and they look forlorn as they hang their heads down and see boys playing football. Some time back, I think six or seven years ago, I did emphasize the need for our schools to teach the pupils, tell the children of the dangers of drug addiction , and I think this is very important , Sir, in view of the fact that drug addiction is becoming a plague, a cancer growing insidiously, not showing itself, into the characters and minds and bodies of our children. May I suggest that this department give attention to teaching on sex and family planning. You see ,the tribal set-up looked after this aspect through the parents - the mother who kept an eye on her daughters. Now that teaching has fallen away and we must fill this vacuum, therefore sex education is a matter upon which I think the Department of Education should concern itself. May I suggest that we must have a very clear and dfinite
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is because of these ignorant chiefs. You will always find that when we go for voting the chiefs cannot write, but they have to put an X. I think they should go back to school to learn. What I am going to suggest to the hon Minister is that although this money has been voted, anyone irrespective of race should be appointed as teachers in order to overcome the shortage of teachers in our schools. You will find that the nations which have been successful in life are those where there is no discrimination as far as colour is concerned, but they used all the avilable people who could teach. I was pleased to hear the last speaker from Herschel when he spoke, particularly when he mentioned things about Herschel and Glen Grey. What I want to point out is that they must not just regard themselves as members of Herschel or Glen Grey, but must be representative of all the people. D/CHAIRMAN: I want to warn the hon member to stick to the policy speech of the Minister of Education. CHIEF MABANDLA : I thank you, Mr Chairman. What I want to state is that these people from Herschel and Glen Grey should remember we are one unit and we must keep the interests of all the people at heart. Why there is a shortage of teachers is on account of the discrimination as far as colour is concerned . I am not prepared to withdraw that statement that there is this discrimination . Mr Chairman. I would the hon Minister should take note of something which I said in connection with schools, particularly one school in Tsolo where there are only three teachers. It happens sometimes that even though a teacher only has a PH qualification he will be asked to go and teach a class which requires a better qualified person. You all know that in a high school there must be a general course and an academic course, and therefore it is a requirement that there should be fully qualified teachers in such schools. I would make a request to the hon Minister to see to it that provision for teachers is made, in particular to the school which I have referred to. Mr Chairman, I would also state that as far as this education is concerned there is something which does not give enough encouragement to our children. In Tsolo there is a school for the sons of chiefs. I do not know whether iti s necessary to have such a school and whether a man has to be taught how to become a chief. Furthermore, I know that a chief is born a chief .I went to that school but I was surprised to find that the children of the leading Ministers the sons of Matanizma — - were never sent to that school. MR P S KAKUDI : Mr Chairman and hon members, I was dealing with the question of an adult education scheme which is an essential to our people in the Transkei. For example, I would like to say what media of communication we have in the world. Firstly you have word of mouth ; then you have the audio-visual aids ; thirdly you have the written material. When you examine the position within our people — particularly the illiterate lot well, all right, you can communicate with those in the first two media that is, word of mouth and audio-visual aids but not in the written material. Now, when the information that is obtainable in the Press means really nothing to them because they have no access to the Press, I fully believe that this illiteracy campaign will do a lot for our poeple in this aspect. Now I come to the question of cultural organizations in the Transkei. I feel, Mr Chairman, that these services in the cultural section should be extended to all language groups of the Transkei. I say to all language groups of the Transkei because we have two language groups in the Transkei . I am entertaining fears, Mr Chairman and hon members, that a certain group, if these services are not extended to it, will feel unaccommodated in the Transkei. Perhaps these might seek a place somewhere where the cultural aspects of the country of those people might accommodate them as a group. The cultural organization I am talking of is perhaps something which will look after our customs and beliefs as a nation. If we have these organizations in the Xhosa language I hope the hon the Minister of Education will understand me when I say there is yet another language spoken, which is not Xhosa. If the welfare of the people in this country is not looked after they will find a place to fit in their cultural organization elsewhere, which still not be comfortab e for the peop e in their own country. I would ask the hon Minister to be aware of the fact that within the Transkei there are Sothos who have their cultural organizations, and these must be looked after. My reason should be clear, that the Transkei comprises twelve tribes and amongst the twelve tribes there are Sotho-speaking people. We have encouraged these Sothospeaking people in our constituency to remain in the Transkei as part of the Transkei. When somebody else from another influenced these people homeland - a Sotho homeland to leave the Transkei and join the exodus to elsewhere we,
code of discipline and behaviour for the teacher, for the pupil, for the boardingmaster - all people concerned with the moulding of the character of our children. I think your gavel just fell on the table, Mr Chairman. (Laughter) MR P S KAKUDI : Mr Chairman and hon members, Í fully welcome the policy speech as given by the hon the Minister of Education . In addition thereto, I must say no nation can maintain high standards essential to an independent state unless it has educated or trained manpower to run the affairs of the nation. It is definitely for this purpose that the Transkeian Government decided to revert to the old Cape education system. This is really a praiseworthy gesture on the part of the Transkeian Government I am sure hon members will agree with me that Bantu Education was a device of some authority which looked upon himself as sole master to plan for us without us. The reversion, therefore, remainsa n indication that the Transkeian swill not allow anybody to force any form of unfavourable stuff down their throats. A good gesture indeed. M/EDUCATION : Excuse me, Mr Chairman, I think you must be fair with the speaker. He is being disturbed by some noise in the House. This is a new gentleman and I think this is his maiden speech, and we must be able to assess him and give him a fair hearing. D/CHAIRMAN: Hon members, before I allow the hon member to continue I want to warn some of the hon members here who clean forget where they are. I will not be blamed for the consequences if I name the hon member and take the necessary steps. Continue, please. MR KAKUDI : Mr Chairman, we are a people and we are entitled to our own choice. Well appreciated should be the question of free books to our pupils. It is with regret that I have to report something which might appear to be on the unfavourable side. Well, this is only due to the reason that I am here to represent my people, the Transkeians. By the Transkeian sin this case I mean those particularly in the electoral division of Herschel, where parents still experience something very much unexpected. There was a very high demand for books at the beginning of this year. All around there were exclamations of "Who? Why?" and so on. Nevertheless, those were pair and children are at school, I suppose, but it remains a point that has still to be corrected . There is another point which was raised by the Minister of Education. The child's work during the year is recognized. I have watched that and I have noticed that. I believe the child's work during the year should be taken into account for his examination at the end of the year. We are not able to judge the child's progress by the examination result at the end of the year. I would have felt that the child's progress during the year should be taken into account for the promotion of the child at the end of the year. This is one of the points I would have liked to have canvassed - that is, that our children should have aptitude tests so that they can be directed into the proper channels in their courses. The unfortunate thing is that the parents will choose a course of education for the child which is not suitable for that child. I want to make this request to the hon the Minister of Education that aptitude tests should be conducted so that the children can be directed into correct path. I am aware that if a child is misdirected he is a failure in the end because of that misdirection. The aptitude test will show the desirable requirements of the child. We are happy on another point, and that is the elevation of the schools to what they are today. The elevation of our schools has caused a shortage of teachers in the schools under this new structure, but the hon the Minister of Education has found a solution to the problem. This problem has been solved by establising special schools for training our teachers to suit the positions we want. We are happy at the establishment of adult schools and we are expecting these schools to be established in Herschel and Glen Grey as well. CHIEF G M MABANDLA : Mr Chairman and hon members, when the hon the Chief Minister praised us I was very pleased, because we are people who will stand by the truth . I was going to complain but I now see the hon the Minister of Education in front of me. We are pleased he has delivered this policy speech in the manner which it has been presented. I can assure this House that the hon Minister will place anything in the correct manner and if something is wrong he will admit it. We want that kind of Minister. The main difficulty we experience is shortage of teachers, this and causes a problem because some of these qualified teachers return to the mines or work to in commerce, because they compalin of the low salaries. Even the female teachers leave the teaching profession to take up nursing, again because of the salaries . The reason why I commend this policy speech is because it concerns party politics. The reason why there is such a noise in the House
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is being proceeded with, and the sooner the better. Fort Hare branch - here again the hon leader of the New Democratic Party has expressed a view which is indeed unassailable, because hitherto we would have loved to have established the University of Transkei and not the Fort Hare branch. We had indeed thought that from the very beginning it would be an institution which is a free institution, the Principal and not the Rector or the Vice-Chancellor a gentleman who would be appointed by the Council and not by a Department of State, and an institution that would be principalled by a gentleman drawn from perhaps Harvard in America or from anywhere in the world, as long as he is acknowledged as an academician. This House will however appreciate the fact that I cannot think of any university in South Africa that has ever started itself. It had to be started by another university. All the universities of South Africa have always been started by the University of South Africa. The University of Transkei had to be started by a university and, it does not matter what we think about it, a university that happens to be adjacent to the Transkei and that happens to be Fort Hare. There was even a feeling that we should have the university in the Transkei. In any case, I can assure this House that in the not distant future I shall be — a draft piloting a bill (we have one now ready prepared) bill for the University of Transkei. I know the views of the hon Chief Minister. He would like to see one of these days that University of Transkei coming up. With regard to family planning, I am afraid the citizens of the Transkei will have to accept the fact that sex education is a must in our schools. It is disturbing in our department to see young female teachers getting pregnant almost all the time, and we know for a fact that this happens because they are woefully ignorant in this matter. Sex amongst the African parents is taboo, so in other words I am afraid this fact will have to be accepted ,especially as the leader of the New Democratic Party has said that traditionally among Africans there was a system whereby girls were inspected by their mothers. Today, in a permissive society, such a practice would be pooh-poohed among the youth. With regard to the agricultural high schools I noticed that the hon member for Tsolo has reservations about these proposed schools. I would like this House to understand that the Transkei is in trouble unless the agricultural economy which is the back-bone of any country, especially this one of ours, is seen to and all the measures are being taken by the department. Agricul tural economy must be regarded as Priority No. 1 , and it is deeply regretted that until now nothing has been done in this direction. The idea of having this agricultural high school is that we would like to make our students agricultureconscious because at the moment I am told at Fort Hare they have a degree of B Sc. (Agriculture) and none is taking this course in spite of the scholarships. We believe, then, if we have such a school, as the hon the Leader of the Opposition has said even if these schools were dotted all over the regions, so much the better. With regard to the remarks made by the new hon member for Herschel, I would rather say I have noted the remarks he has made and we have an officer in my department who is concerned about cultural affairs and I believe we shall draw his attention to the remarks made. The hon the Leader of the Opposition mentioned something about a crash programme. I don't agree with him and I would like it to be understood that when we speak of crash programme it is because it has to be the last resort. I rather think a crash programme is a palliative. It is no solution, as he said, to the problem. I am mindful of the disadvantages of builders who might have been trained under such an arrangement, but at the moment it will be appreciated that the whole countryside has no building contractors and that is why my department has lately been 1ecruiting building contractors even from elsewhere. We have two already from elsewhere because we have none in the country, but schools must be erected so that is our trouble. Mr and erected immediately Chairman, I do not want to waste the time of this House and I appreciate that the hon members are not used to night sessions, so I must say I thank them all for the contributions they have made to my Vote and at this stage I would move that my Vote be adopted . M/JUSTICE: 1 second. The sum of R24 884 000 in respect of Vote 4, Department of Education, was passed to stand part of the Schedule. POLICY SPEECH : MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS : Mr Chairman Honourable Paramount Chiefs and Honourable Members of the Legislative Assembly. My Department is still encountering numerous difficulties, mainly due to the continued chronic shortages of Senior Professional and Technical staff as well as plant operators but despite this has still rendered the services for which it is responsible in respect of the construction and maintenance of roads as well as the construction and maintenance of
as the supporters of the Transkeian Government who really intend to remain permanently in the Transkei, discouraged these people. I assure you, hon members, these people have opted to remain permanently in the Transkei and these people who are actually voters have assured us of permanent loyalty to the Government of the Transkei, hence my equest to the hon the Minister of Education to extend the cultural services to this language group of the Transkei who are indeed Transkeians. Hon members, I would not like to expand in my motivation on this aspect, but those people, particularly in our electoral division of Herschel, have shown by their votes 100%. They voted for us and they knew we purely for independence, for the Transkei and for a permanent stay in the Transkei. The Sothos throughout Maluti have their friends in the Xhosa language group. We do admit there has been intermarriage between these two groups and these people came to this section of the country during the time of Mfecane, long before any Blacks in South Africa thought of this constitutional development as we enjoy it today. Mr Chairman, who will allow a people under the circumstances to join the exodus to elsewhere when their history extends far beyond the period of this constitutional development ? I say "No " ?. These are Transkeians who have to join hands with all trustworthiness with their Xhosa fellow citizens, permanently and forever. Perhaps the last point to touch is the question of sex education and family planning as raised by the hon the Leader of the Opposition. Here we have to take all precautions. In fact, I had better say we have got to be aware ofthe type of people we have in this country. According to our traditions as Transkeians we do not openly speak about sex to the children. I would suggest to the hon the Leader of the Opposition to give these people time to develop perhaps to a stage where they will be in a position to accept sex education and family planning as he suggests. Thank you, Mr Chairman. D/CHAIRMAN : Hon members of the House, it is my considered opinion, and I think I am correct in saying that this Vote has now been sufficiently canvassed. I shall therefore call upon the hon Minister to reply. M/EDUCATION : Mr Chairman and hon members, I am not going to waste your time if there is no need for it. I believe, Mr Chairman, that I have a duty towards this House in that I must thank the hon members of the House for having participated in Vote 3, and particularly I would like to pay tribute to the leader of the New Democratic Party for his constructive criticisms throughout. In fact, to be honest, I was a little bit disturbed, but I had to accept it, when he had to be stopped because I thought he was making an enormous contribution to this debate and I know, especially at the beginning of the debate when he stood up, he pointed out certain discrepancies regarding the figures in my policy speech and also in the Estimates of Expenditure. I must admit, hon members, it is an undeniable fact that the discrepance here and there is there, and with due respect to him and to this House I should like to say - and unhesitatingly — that this was unavoidable. There has been a sort of disruption in my department disruption in the whole machinery of the department -because of the secretaries of the department having been taken away for training. I must admit, Mr Chairman, I heartily apologise about this and I can assure this House that this will not happen again. I must mention again the fact that if the independence of the Transkei is going to be meaningful to the people of the Transkei , compulsory education is a must, and I appreciate the apprehension of the hon the Leader of the Opposition when he thinks that the sooner we have compulsory education the better. I agree with him, but I think he has rightly observed that there are militating factors about the implementation of compulsory education in the Transkei and we must be prepared to face up to it. There are two militating factors particularly, and one is teachers. You cannot call upon the parents in the country to send children to school where there are no teachers to teach such children. As a matter of fact, it is a practice today in our schools where you find that many children cannot be accommodated, although children go to school voluntarily. Another militating factor known to all ctizens of this territory is lack of accommodation. I would like to draw the attention of the House to this indisputable fact that the Government of the Transkei is no better off than someone who inherits a property The Government cannot be blamed which is insolvent. for poor housing accommodation, because as far back as 1963 when this Government took over there was nothing which had ever been done by the successive Governments of the time. In any event, Mr Chairman, I can assure hon members who are apprehensive or impatient about this matter that my department is taking pains to see to it that this aspect ofthe department - compulsory education— 272.
buildings required by the various departments and the provision of Transport services. During the past year adverse weather conditions caused severe damage to the whole road system in the Transkei and my department is doing its utmost to repair the damage. The staff of the Traffic Control sub-division has been enlarged to cope with the ever-increasing demands imposed on the Traffic Force and is rendering an invaluable service in enforcing road safety and regulations, checking on the roadworthiness of motor vehicles and ensuring that the department's Local Road Transportation Board's requirements are being strictly complied with. The Traffic Law Administration Division is at present engaged in investigat ing ways and means to centralise all registration of vehicles and the issuing of learner' and drivers' licences in the Transkei. Negotiations regarding the takeover of the Services of the National Road Safety Council are under way and it is hoped that the matter will be finalised in the near future. Now, Mr Chairman, it is my pleasure to proceed with the outlining of the proposed activities of my department for the coming year. Firstly I would like to draw attention to the anticipated increase in my department's vote by R15 317 000 which can be attributed mainly to an increase in the services to be supplied and to an increase in salaries, creation of additional posts, increase in the cost of labour, materials, as the transport and machinery and running thereof as well as the incorporation of the Herschel and Glen Grey districts into the Transkei w. e. f. 1 December 1975. In addition to this function of the Cape Provincial Roads Department in the districts of Herschel and Glen Grey were taken over w.e.f. 22 March 1976. I now propose to confine my remarks to the discussion of individual sub-heads of Vote 6.
railage charges on materials, fuels, etc, ordered from suppliers and manufacturers. As the subsistence and transport allowance rates have been revised and the department's activities increase a corresponding increase in subsistence and general transport costs must inevitably follow. Subhead C Telegraph and Telephone Services The amount of R43 000 provided for 1976/77 under this subhead is to cater for the normal postal, telegraph, telex and telephone services and for the transition to the new telephone system in Umtata. Suhead D: Printing, Advertisements and Publications There is an insignificant increase of R1 000 under this subhead for 1976/77 as the volume of printing work required and publications to be purchased is increasing.
Subhead F: Miscellaneous Expenses The amount provided for under this subhead is increased by R60 475 as compared with the previous financial year. This increase is provided mainly for the purchase of uniforms for the Traffic Force and also the replacement of) worn out protective clothing. Provision has also been made for the anticipated increase under item "Compensation and also losses, accident and default." This can be attributed to the expansion of the department's staff and activities. Allowances have also been made for the increased Third Party Insurance premiums and for trade testing fees as well as for the training of Artisans. This year substantial funds have been made available for the purchase of flags and the supply of decorations , lighting and stands for the impending Transkei Independence Celebrations.
Subhead A: Salaries, Wages and Allowances Subhead F: Furniture, Safes and Appliances The authorised establishment of this department has since the last session of the Legislative Assembly expanded owing to the re-organisation and increased activities of the various divisions and sections. This resulted in the creation of 47 additional posts to our establishment maily in the Traffic Force. Posts for 5 Departmental Transport Inspectors are in the process of being created. These inspectors will be employed to check on official transport in order to prevent its abuse and / or misuse by officials . Two additional Learner Survey Technicians have been recruited and are attending the Mmadikoti Technical College near Pietersburg. Ten Traffic Officers who were sent to the Divisional Council of Cape Town for training have completed and passed the Traffic Officers Training course whilst 21 have also completed a similar course in Pretoria. Three Tracers are also undergoing a course in Architectural drawing in Pretoria and one officer is undergoing theoretical training in an Operator's Course for Water Purification Works. During the past year promotions were effected in the various grades as follows : 1 to Assistant Secretary 3 to Chief Clerk 6 to Principal Clerk 1 to Assistant Accountant Grade I 1 to Assistant Accountant Grade II 8 to Senior Clerk 21 to Clerk Grade I 1 to Senior Typist 1 to Principal Traffic Officer. 1 to Senior Traffic Officer 1 to Chief Storekeeper 1 to Senior Draughtsman 4 to Inspector ofWorks 11 to Foreman 2 to Senior Roads Superintendent 4to Road Superintendent 8 to Roads Foreman 6 to Assistant Roads Foreman 15 to Senior Dirver Driver/Operate Į, however, regret to state that quite a number of staff were lost through death and resignations during the past financial year. There has been a decrease in the number of misconduct cases reported.
Subhead B:
Subsistence and Transport
There will be an expected increase of R15 000 under this subhead. This expenditure consists maily of subsistence, 273.
An additional amount of R513 000 will be required under this subhead to meet the following :— (a) Furnishing of State President's House. (b) Furnishing of five new Ministerial houses. (c) Office furniture for new departments to be formed, and Furniture for five Transkei Diplomatic Missions abroad. Subhead G: Roads and Bridges This subhead deals with one of the most important activities of the department, namely the construction and maintenance of Government roads and bridges. Re-construction of Government roads improved standards in conformity with traffic requirements is carried out as a continuous policy from year to year. This department's resources were severely strained during the period November 1975 to April 1976 when major washaways were experienced throughout the Transkei and all available machines and manpower were filly engaged and are still fully engaged on doing urgent repairs to road communications. Several road approaches to bridges were also either completely washed away or badly damaged, and this had an adverse effect on the road construction programme. Some approaches to bridges could not be repaired immediately due to the swollen rivers, but this department will do everything in its power to remedy this situation, then only will our road programme be back to normal. The road from Tabankulu Village to the main Umtata — Kokstad National road was completely regravelled during the last financial year. This unit was moved to Mount Ayliff area to regravel the road from near Mbongweni to Ford Donald via Bulembu , and work will be carried out for whole of this financial year. This road is of great importance, to the timber industry. The road from Tsolo - Maclear junction to St Cuthbert's Mission was completely regravelled as well as the road to the foot of Bushman's cuttings . This work will continue to the the Transkei boundary and to Mbidlana Trading store for the whole of this financial year. 2 (Two) new bridges were also constructed en route to Bushman's cuttings. Reconstruction of the road from Engcobo to Elliot boundary was completed during the last financial year, and work has started by this unit on the Mnyola — Ugie roads, and this work will continue for the whole financial year. 2 (Two) regravelling units are fully occupied in Western Tembuland region carrying out extensive repairs to all major roads in the areas and this work will continue during the financial year.
A great deal of regravelling work has, and is still being done in the Gcaleka, Fingo and Nyanda regions, and this work will continue throughout the financial year. Maintanence work is still being carried out throughout the Transkei as a continuous service. The newly proclaimed road (G/R 495) from Langgewacht to Singisi sawmill in the Umzimkulu region is under construction to a bituminous standard by a private contractor, and this work will continue throughout this financial year. Good progress is being made and completion is scheduled for November 1977. The main road from the junction at Pakade in the Mount Ayliff district to Magusheni in the Bizana district is under construction to a bituminous standard by a private contractor and completion is scheduled for October 1977. Planning has started on the proposed access road leading to the Marble Quarry in the Port St John's area. The Consultant's report on this project is expected in due course. Mention must also be made of the access road forming part of the infra-structure to the Ibeka Industrial Area which is now being constructed by private contract and will most probably be completed during this financial year. All roads previously under the jurisdiction of the Ciskeian Government in Glen Grey and Herschel areas were taken over by this department, during December 1975. The estimated expenditure for the financial year 1976/77 shows an increase of R4 126 500 over the previous financial year, thus a total of R8 681 100 under sub-head G. Subhead H : Plant Machinery, Equipment and Tools The expenditure under this subhead has been decreased by an amount of R551 150 compared to the previous financial year and will mainly be used on the purchase of plant to replace machinery which has become unserviceable. Subhead J:
Building Services:
Major Works
Before I go on with this subhead I will ask the members to turn to page 58 of the Estimates. Under item (n)(iii), Mtengwane Senior Secondary School, the amount of the estimate should be R11 000 instead of 1 100. A substancial number of major building projects are under construction the most important of which are the following:(a) Multi-storey Administrative Complex in Owen Street, Umtata. (b) Prime Minister's residence and four additional Ministerial residence near the F M tower along the Umtata - East London national road. (c) Border Customs Posts at Kei Bridge and at Umzimkulu (d) Technical College, Umtata : Girls' hostel for 224 boarders and 7 workshops for the various trades. (e) St John's College, Umtata : Girl's hostel for 130 boarders plus additional classrooms. (f) New Magistrate's office complexes at Butterworth and at Mount Fletcher. (g) Accommodation for workers employed at the Lambasi Coffee and Tea Project, Lusikisiki 150 houses. (h) Erection of terminal buildings for the new airport at Ncise, eleven kilometres from Umtata, on the Umtata Engcobo national road. It may be mentioned that the airport is being provided by the Department of Bantu Administration and Development and comprises a black top runway two kilometres long and a grass runway approximately 1 kilometres long which will allow fairly large aircraft to land up to the 747 class. The following projects have been planned and will be proceeded with as soon as funds become available: (a) Mount Ayliff Police Headquarters (b) Gqaka Police Station: Engcobo (c) Maluti Police Station : Maluti Township (d) Residences for the Magistrate and Assistant Magistrate Maluti Township (e) Poly-clinics at Cofimvaba, Nqamakwe and Maluti Township. Planning is under way in respect of the following projects : (a) Ndamse Senior Secondary School, Ngqeleni : Hostel facilities for 500 boarders and 18 classrooms. (b) Mount Frere Teachers Training School : 2 Hostel blocks to accommodate 184 girls and 120 boys plus 11 classrooms and administrative block. (c) New Umtata Hospital to accommodate 1 100 patients. (d) Sports stadium for the Transkei. It is expected that 107 senior secondary school classrooms and various laboratories, domestic science and administrative blocks will be completed during this financial year.
Subhead K: Building Services: Minor Works and Alterations It is anticipated that approximately 406 primary school classrooms will have been completed by the end of the financial year. Several other new minor works and alterations to government buildings are also expected to be completed this year. Of the amount provided under this subhead approximately 8% will be spent on the acquisition of generating plants to provide electricity at the various hospitals and at my department's depot at Maluti Township as well as at the Freemantle High School in the Glen Grey district. An amount of R924 000 is provided for the on 1976/77 estimates - a substantial decrease of R426 000. Subheaf L:
General Maintenance
An amount of R950 000 is provided for under this subhead - an increase of 54%. This substantial increase can be attributed to the increase in wages and material as well as the inclusion into the Transkei of the districts of Glen Grey and Herschel . Subhead M : Services
Rents, Water, Electricity and Municipal
The amount of R700 000 provided on the estimates represents a considerable increase of 193 %. This is due to accommodation hired for the Transkeian foreign diplomats --- an amount of R400 000 has been provided for this particular purpose. Subhead N: Maintenance and Repair of Plant, Machinery, Equipment and Tools This subhead shows an increase of R50 000 in comparison with 1975/76. Subhead O:
Government Motor Transport
Under this subhead an amount of R2 320 300 has been provided representing an increase of R419 800 over the amount ofR1 900 500 provided during the previous financial year. The substantial increase required is attributable primarily due to the following factors :(i) The large increase in the number of vehicles now in use is brought about because of the continuous taking over of hospitals and Transkeian Police stations as well as the incorporation of the districts of Glen Grey and Herschel in the Transkei. (ii) The continouus increase in the purchase price of new vehicles. (iii) The continuous rapid rising costs of spares and fuel as well as additional replacement vehicles brought about by the enlargement of establishment of the various Departments and the big increase in the number of vehicles in use. (iv) The continuous rise in maintenance costs.
I would like to appeal to heads of all Departments to do everything in their power to curb fruitless expenditure regarding motor vehicles and guard against abuse of Government Motor Transport. Subhead P: Planning and Development of - and Maintenance Services in Townships and Provision of Infra-Structure An amount of R3 300 000 is provided for under this subhead - an increase of R2 610 000. Work on the erection of houses at Maluti Township is being held in abeyance until funds become available. Work on the Umtata infra-structure is proceeding well i.e. the provision of services to the industrial area, new ministerial housing complex, university etc. Good progress is being maintained in the erection of houses for the re-settlement of approximately 200 families from the new airport area at Ncise. The construction of 900 houses at Ibeka, Butterworth is being proceeded with. It is anticipated that these houses will be ready for occupation at the beginning of 1978. Mr Chairman and Honourable Members, I wish to thank the staff of my department for their devoted services, as without their help the achievements attained during the past financial year would not have been possible. And now, Mr Chairman and Honourable Members, I trust that I have clearly outlined the activities of my depart-
274.
ment for the ensuing financial year and I now move the adoption of Vote 6 of the estimates. M/JUSTICE : I second, Mr Chairman. The debate was adjourned. HOUSE RESUMED The D/Chairman reported progress. Assembly adjourned untill 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 12 May 1976. WEDNESDAY, 12 MAY 1976
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. CHAIRMAN : Hon members when they looked at their minutes perhaps did not know why the late session after 4.15 pm was not reported here. According to the minutes the House adjourned at 16.15 instead of 11 p m. That is because the people who print the minutes were not available after 16.15 and they will only be able to record the rest of the proceedings today. MR L L MĞUDLWA : On a point of privilege, Mr Chairman, seeing that we have to adjourn at 11 pm I wish to point out that there is no lighting available outside the premises. It is inside here but not outside and I have to draw the attention of the Chairman that the stenographer had to be escorted out. It is very dark outside. In fact the buses which were supposed to be there were not there when we left here although the members were assured there would be buses. That must be well seen to and our interests must be well looked after. Thank you, Sir. MR. E DYARVANE : Mr Chairman, just a point of irregularity I see some photographs being taken in the House. Is this allowed? CHAIRMAN: Hon members, the photographers who are in the gallery are officials from head office in Pretoria. They have been granted permission to take photographs of the proceedings of the Transkeian Legislative Assembly and I hope that whilst they are here the members will behave. NOTICES OF BILLS M/ROADS: Mr Chairman and hon members, as the hon the Chief Minister is busy at present I beg on his behalf to give that notice on Thursday, 13 May 1976, he proposes to move the first reading of a bill to provide for the appointment ofan Auditor-General for the Transkei and to prescribe his duties and powers and to make provision for incidental matters. I further beg to give notice that on Thursday, 13 May 1976, the hon the Minister of Finance proposes to move the first reading of a bill to provide for the raising and redemption of loans by the Government of the Transkei and for matters incidental thereto. APPROPRIATION BILL: COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY M/ROADS: Mr Chairman, I move that the House should sit in committee. Agreed to. Agreed to. House in Committee. The debate on Vote 6, Department of Roads and Works, was resumed. MR N JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, after hearing the policy speech of the hon the Minister of Roads and Works I find there are a few matters I wish to comment on. The policy speech is a straightforward one, explaining the activities of his department. He has explained in detail what is expected of the various sub-branches of his department. What touches us very closely is the matter of roads and bridges. The hon Minister mentioned the programme of almost every region and explained their intentions, but in the Emboland region only certain minor repairs were mentioned, such as the roads from Tsolo to Maclear and from Tsolo to St Cuthbert's, whereas in Qumbu district the worst roads are those in the northern portion of the district such as from Sulenkama to Mount Fletcher. As mentioned, Mr Chairman, the roads to Thabatulu, Nxaxa and so on are The topoquite impassable because of very heavy rains. graphy there is very rugged and the rains wash away a lot of soil. We would ask the hon Minister to pay special attention to these roads because the population of Qumbu is denser in the north than in other areas and the people are very far from Qumbu village. The buses cannot get to these localities because of the bad state of the roads. At Caba the roads are just as bad and when one intends 275.
travelling to Caba one has to go via Tsolo because the direct route to Caba is impassable on account of the state of the road and the bridges. We mention this because what we now say has created hardships and handicaps for the people. The hon Minister will recall that there has been a great deal of discussion in this House about the roads and bridges and he will then realise how important this question of roads and bridges is. We realise that the heavy rains have placed a strain on the Roads and Works Department. We have seen your gangs busy on certain roads but the following day that work is washed away. This makes us realise how strained your department must be but we urge you to double your efforts because you are not responsible for the elements. If God has so willed, we shall have to double our efforts to remedy the situation. We also realise that even in regard to the estimates you have spent more than usual on the work of your department, but we appeal to you, Sir, and to your department to double your efforts. We also appeal that there should be stricter supervision over your road gangs. Every road gang should be so supervised as to make sure that every day a certain amount of work has been done. You have mentioned in your policy speech that some of your employees have been discharged because of misconduct. This is serious, because every worker is governed by a certain code of behaviour. Every worker must realise that he may be discharged if he does not perform his duties properly. You have also mentioned that certain promotions have been effected in your department. That is commendable, because we feel that those who deserve promotion should be promoted as an encouragement. Mention has been made of certain inspectors who will assist traffic officers, and we would appeal to those inspectors not to be too strict on the people but to give warnings to junior officers when necessary. One meets an inspector and is stopped and the inspector points out there is a minor fault such as an indicator. Before you can explain you are already charged. I say in cases of that nature the motorist should be given some warning. CHIEF S S MAJEKE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I shall also confine myself mainly to roads. This department, without blaming the hon Minister and his department, is causing a lot of hardship amongst motorists. Almost all the roads in the Transkei except the tarred roads are in a very bad condition. Not only the excessive rains are attributed to this but it would seem those responsible for the construction and maintenance seem not to know their job thoroughly. These people should be trained and in most cases we have a lazy lot here. In this respect I blame even the hon members here, and the public, for not reporting them to the officials when these men loiter about and do not do their work. There are many administrative areas which buses cannot reach. This is a very bad state of affairs. Besides this the people of the Transkei have many cars bought expensively, but what happens is that they break so quickly when they traverse these bad roads. The garages are absorbing hundreds of rands from the motorists. These motorists are people who are in dire need of help. I shall not touch on the question of Caba road because it has already been mentioned by the last speaker, but I wish to emphasize, Mr Minister, that those and when are suffering real hardship as it is the main road between Caba and Qumbu and when the hon the Minister of Education was in Qumbu he was given a letter to give to you. There are many schools which are hampered by the break-down of that bridge. We sympathize with you because you could not visit these areas during the devastating rains. Your department is highly commended on the erection of buildings. Now, coming to the traffic oflfficers I am glad your department is training more of these officers, because they are of great help to the public and their presence along the roads saves many lives. I would that their work should be made more attractive. These officers are exposed to cold and even on rainy days they do their job. I request when you have more money, please increase their salaries. Another request I would like to make to the hon Minister is that as you travel along the roads, more especially this year, there is tall grass along the roads and you know the menace in the Transkei of stock. You find in most cases that motorists drive along and trust to luck because you see a sheep protruding immediately in front of you, or perhaps a horse. Please, Mr Minister, we ask you that you have this grass cut short even if only along the tarred roads. Now, Mr Chairman, I would advise the hon the Minister of Roads and Works that this arrangement of regional basis, where one superintendent is stationed in a district to supervise three or four districts, is not working properly. As I have told you, most of these men are very lazy. I emphasize that. They need super-
vision and if we could have supervision on a district basis it would be much better. The superintendent can be there but you could have some other men in the districts. You know, you give them a high salary and you must see to it that they keep these people working throughout the day. If they start at 7 they must be there at 7. M/ROADS : We have foremen in each district. CHIEF MAJEKE : I don't think I need take much more of your time, Mr Chairman, thank you. MR J M DUMALISILE : MI Chairman and hon members, before I go into the question of roads I wish to draw your attention to the Estimates, page 45, and to the mention of Subhead C in the hon Minister's policy speech. This refers to Postal, Telegraphic and Telephone Services and in your policy speech you have reflected an amount of R43 000 yet in the Estimate the amount is R43 500. I would like you to explain how this discrepancy has occurred. The same question was raised during the Education debate. Mr Chairman, I will now discuss the matter of roads. It will be remembered that last session I raised the matter of the state of the roads in the Willowvale district. We admit that all the roads in the Transkei have been damaged on account of the heavy rain and we are greatly surprised because these roads are not being attended to, but what surprises us most is that the machinery is also at a standstill. We do not know if these machines have also been damaged by these heavy rains. When these machines are not in working order the operators are still paid. Even between the districts of Idutywa and Willowvale there is one broken machine. It is always guarded and that person is being paid for this. You find motorists complaining but you will note that gravel which has not been crushed is just thrown on the road and it damages the tyres. Before these heavy rains the road between Idutywa and Qwaninga through Fort Malan was already damaged and nothing whatsoever has been done to repair it, so much that people who leave Idutywa for Fort Malan have to go a roundabout way in order to get to their destination . You will find gravel along the roads but this should never be left for such a long period that there is actually grass growing on the top. There are places along the road where people have been asked to do some work, but nothing has been done apart from these heaps of gravel being dumped . Now that the rains are over we request that these roads should be attended to and it should be seen to that these machines are put in working order. When I began to speak I mentioned bridges. There are four bridges in Willowvale district and the approaches to these bridges are very dangerous. The roads are narrow and the bridges are low and are often flooded during the rainy season. Two of them are over the Shixini and the Qwaninga Rivers. When I mentioned these bridges you promised to send someone to inspect the place but nothing was done. I will be pleased when you reply even ifyou will just say funds are not available. (Laughter) I notice, too, that the building of schools comes under your department . There is a particular school in Willowvale district and it is your procedure that when a school is constructed the contractor is paid when he has laid the foundation, and another instalment is paid when the walls reach a certain height , but what has happened is that one contractor has been paid even though the foundations have not been completed. In reply to a question the hon the minister of Roads said that the funds lie with the tribal authorities, but it will be noted that these funds become exhausted because the people who do this work are paid before they have finished. The hon the Minister of Roads says the blame is with the tribal authorities because they should not pay people who have not done any work. Nevertheless the inspectors come from your department. When the inspectors come to inspect they find that the wall have not been built and in spite of that the contractors are paid. We sometimes think that the money deposited with the magistratrate should be paid to the tribal authority because all the negotiations are carried out through the magistrate's office. We are bringing these matters to your notice and we ask you not to do those things which you ought not to do and leave undone those things which you ought to do. (Laughter) Though we realise the rains have been a disturbance, now that the rains are over the workers should be seen on the roads. The workers on the roads are employed by your foremen who just tell them to put the gravel on the roads and nothing further. If there is gravel on the road they should not put earth on top of the gravel. An attempt has been made to indicate dangerous bends by placing road signs, but this work was not completed . The road from Idutywa to Willowvale through Gwadana is out of use by the buses now because of its bad condition . The hon
member for Idutywa could support that statement. All the storekeepers are having difficulty in bringing foodstuffs to their stores and therefore the community suffers. Finally I wish to touch on the roads leading to the Great Places. The road to Nqadu is in a very bad state and the buses are unable to use it. Tourists wish to visit the Great Places but because of these roads they cannot get there. Before I sit down, hon Minister, are you going to promise that you will observe these things and do something about them? Say yes. (Laughter) D/CHAIRMAN : Address the Chair, please. MR L L MGUDLWA : Mr Chairman and hon members, on a point of privilege, Mr Chairman, I don't think this House is aware of the fact that on this side we are three sectors. There is this so-called New Democratic Party, I am the DP and there are Independents. We have got to be given our chance. Interjections) CHIEF SL SIGCAU : Mr Chairman and hon members, I rise to say that the policy speech of the hon Minister is most commendable, though I have a few requests to make to the department concerned. It is my request that as the road to the Great Place at Qaukeni is in a very bad state and important people and highly placed officials use that road there should be a permanent gang working on that road. The Qaukeni region covers a wide area and because of the heavy rains the roads are in a very poor state. It is clear that we have not sufficient workers on the roads, nor have we sufficient machinery. My request is that there should be additional gangs and machinery so that that area can be properly worked. We also requested that a bridge should be built at Lambasi. The Lambasi is quite a big stream and it has densely populated areas on both banks. There is Goso on one side and Lambasi on the other. When the river is in flood the workers from Lusikisiki side cannot cross the river and the request is that there should be a bridge at a certain point. I must again say that the foreman who succeeded the white superintendent there is a very capable man. When he came on the scene there was a vast difference. We are thankful to the department for giving us such an officer. The road to Lambasi is bad right from Lusikisiki village and when we ask why, the explanation is that there is a shortage of necessary machinery. That is not the only road that is bad, because the roads generally are in a very bad state. We do not blame the department for that because we realise how heavy the rains have been. Those are the requests I have to place before you. MR LL MGUDLWA : Mr Chairman and hon members, what I want to say in connection with this policy speech by the hon the Minister of Roads and Works is this : I learn from his speech that there have been promotions in that department. I was also employed once in that department and this is the first time I have seen such a catalogue of promotions. We see today the first beam of light when one will know that all the people in that department are educated, but they have been blanketed . Why can't these people be covered by a blanket all the time ? These people should be promoted in accordance with their work and qualifications. During 1963 when this Assembly was started I was taken to that department. Previous to that I was a teacher and I wondered what I was going to teach in such a department. (Laughter) Now I would, Mr Minister, that you should carry on at this strength because your predecessor, the hon Mr Mabandla, used to force other people to do their work. What you used to find was a white superintendent who had not even the qualification of Std 6 would supervise a black matriculated clerk. In the policy speech it is stated that there will be five departmental traffic inspectors. I want you to tell them they should do their work, but preferably they should take an oath before they take up their duties because when a man is going to assume such duties as inspector he is liable to accept bribes . We are also meeting some trouble with the present traffic officers whom we find shooting indiscriminately at people . We would not encourage people who don't want to keep peace and order in this country. Please note what I am saying, Mr Minister, and stop people from shooting others. The hon Minister has mentioned in his speech there is a continued chronic shortage of professional and technical officers. Please tell us what causes this. Is it not on account of the policy you are following? How many are at Fort Hare University to take up B Sc degrees, or at any other university:? No mention is made of them in this policy speech. Sometimes you are told how many students have been sent to some other area for training. You must not play marbles, Mr Minister. No, you must not do so. We must so live in this world as not to lose in the world to come. (Laughter) 276.
It is only in so far as we live and keep our standard up to date that we shall attain our goal. You speak of independence on 26 October. That is a pipe-dream so far as I am concerned. (Laughter) How do I get into that independence if I am not economically viable and if I haven't the know-how? No man without the know-how . D/CHAIRMAN : Will the hon member stick to the subject under discussion. We are on Vote 6. MR MGUDLWA: I come, with all due honour to you, Mr Chairman, to paragraph 7. I notice there has been a decrease in the number of misconduct cases reported. I wish the hon Minister would take cognizance of the fact that if that, in fact, is true then himself and his department, in conjuctionn with the Public Service Commission, must uphold those standards in order that there may be no cases of misconduct ever, because I know for a fact that that department has had, in so far as my records can show, many cases that is, three drivers. The Transport of misconduct Section - in fact, I am sure the Transport Officer is here with us and he may bear me out. I once had the opportunity of meeting an XG car at an "mgidi" party on a Sunday. Can you think of such things, Mr Chairman ? They let down our Government and especially your department, Mr Minister. P/CHIEF M B SIGCAU : Mr Chairman and hon members, I wish to associate myself with the policy speech of the hon Minister of the Roads and Works. It is a fact that the roads are in a poor state but we must commend the hon Minister in his efforts. We all know there have been very heavy rains this year but we feel that the budget has been well prepared. However, the allocations are more or less one-sided. If you were listening you will find Maluti is often mentioned there. Many times I heard Maluti mentioned and yet one hon member said if they were not properly treated they would leave the Transkei. I had a very bad sleep because of that hint. I wonder why the hon member said that at all? That was irrelevant. He should have mentioned that on another occasion. What will you do? This is Transkeian soil. How can you leave here? Yes, you will have to do it alone because you will leave the ground here. (Laughter) Let me tell you straight - it is undesirable that one man should stand up in this House and say they had better leave. We discussed this matter a great deal last night. We are living here in peace and now you are putting in this spirit of unrest. We want to tell you we are not afraid. We are not cowards. We want to live with you in peace because you also came in peace. Don't threaten us. We don't like to be threatened, because we are men. Don't do it again. I am giving you that hint, my friend. (Laughter) But we are glad you came into the Transkei. Don't go away to wherever you came from — Herschel or somewhere else. We are glad you came here like that. You and we don't want you to hint at things - Xhosa, English speak of this multiplicity of languages and Sotho. We are your friends, so let us unite and love each other. When we discuss roads let us stick to that subject. The roads in Qaukeni must be put right. The people are like that. Charity starts at home and everybody wants their own area to be seen to. I can point out things and tell you what is happening in other places. Someone mentioned there should be a tarred road to Qaukeni Great Place. I suggest all the Great Places should have tarred that is what I say. You must start with the Great roads Places but other places such as Magwa should also be question attended to. I did not mean to speak only on thesomeof roads but was trying to put a certain idea right which made me restless last night. I wonder why the ChairHe should have ruled it man did not stop that speaker. out of order because it disturbed us. We are welcoming you and we want you to feel welcome in this place, but you must be discreet in what you say. You have brought ladies here and your ladies are very presentable. Some of the gentlemen here are being more interested in them than is strictly right. (Laughter) Some of these ladies are quite young and the people here are beginning to pay attention. on you, hon Minister, to pay (Laughter) I am calling attention to the roads - you and your staff. What is
happening in Matatiele and Mount Fletcher, because there is much mention of those areas ? You have not listened properly to this policy speech but I listened well and the money has been spent in the Maluti region and yet those people still complain. Why? We are giving you a good time and you must play the game. Let us love one another. You are here and well-treated, but you seem to complain. Do we complain? Not at all. Let us love one another and unite. Unity ! (Laughter) D/CHAIRMAN : Hon members, it is my feeling that this policy speech has now been thoroughly covered. 277.
OPPOSITION MEMBERS : No. D/CHAIRMAN : I do not feel happy about allowing further speakers on this Vote because I feel I will persistently interrupt a speaker who repeats what has already been said. Does the House agree? MEMBERS :
No.
D/CHAIRMAN : I will allow one speaker then. MR H H ZIBI : Mr Chairman and hon membres, although I feel a bit deflated I wish to say one thing. To start off with I never believe in singing praises to an hon Minister for his policy speech put before this House. My belief is that all policy speeches have to go through the usual process of being handled in a rough way in regard to some of the matters, but due to certain redeeming features contained in the policy speech I feel I will apply some restraint. Mr Minister, your Government speaks of independence of the Transkei soon, so that the question of roads, the question of bridges, the question of schools is a prerequisite before you think of embarking on any such scheme if it is to be independence in its true meaning. (Interjections) It has been canvassed that the roads in the Transkei generally are in a bad condition, so that I need not belabour that issue any more, but I have this to say about roads ―― that there are those key roads which connect a district to another district, causing intercommunication between the districts composing the Transkei, which have to be attended to and given first priority. I refer to roads such as the roads mentioned here by the other speakers — for example, the road connecting Qumbu and Mount Fletcher, Mount Fletcher and Mount Frere, Idutywa and Willowvale, etc, and I must request the department to give consideration to those districts whose topography -- that is, the physical position of a district should be given geographical consideration. I refer now to districts which compose the region of Maluti. Before I am out of time, a decision was taken last year, unanimously, that workers - especially workers on your roads - should be paid a minimum wage of R2 a day. I would like to know from the hon Minister what happened to that decision, because no reference was made to it in your policy speech. I go further to mention the question of schools. I regret I have to narrow the scope of the debate, Mr Minister, by referring specifically to schools in the Maluti region. I appreciate the effort made by the department in putting up our senior secondary schools, but I have this question to ask: Why is it that all the senior secondary schools in the Maluti region are never given more than six classrooms? If you look at the Estimates you find in other regions the classrooms built by the department in other districts will range to 10 or 11. What is the reason for that? I must now get down to the primary schools as well. Our tribal authorities place levies on the people and they have got the money. I refer to the money they are expected to pay so as to be able to get a subsidy from the Government. There were three schools last year, for example, which have not been built and this year I find they have been removed from the list and a new set is there. I would like to know why this has happened, so that if it is at the recommendation of the Department of Education then I know who the nigger in the woodpile is. I would like to know, Mr Minister, what you have done towards solving the disturbing menace of government cars privately used by memebrs of the department. Reference has been made by the hon member for Engcobo of one incident of some such practice. Finally, Mr Minister, there is an amount of R60 475 which is earmarked under subhead E for Miscellaneous Expenses. "Miscellaneous" is some commercial terminology used in bookkeeping, but you know it is all-embarcing and you see a globular figure there and you never know what the amount will be used for. I would that in your reply you make it clear specifically as to what that amount will be used for. Mr Chairman, I think what I would otherwise have said has been covered by the hon members who have already spoken. I thank you, Mr Chairman. MR K G NOTA : Mr Chairman and hon members, I crave the indulgence of the Chair to allow me to make these few remarks. Mr Chairman, I want to take this opportunity because I think this is the appropriate department which I may ask to convey these remarks to the appropriate authorities. On Monday I was on my way to Port Shepstone and I noticed that there is a contractor there by the name of Grinaker. He has been given the contract by this Government to tar the road from Pakade to Magusheni, and the very fact that that road is going to be the road tarred means it is being used by a number of vehicles. That road has been an all-weather road but what they have done is to
make a new road which is of very inferior quantity. When it rains it will disrupt business between Kokstad and the whole of Eastern Pondoland and I therefore feel I should bring this to the notice of the Department of Roads and Works so that they can consult Messrs Grinaker to put the road they have made in an all-weather condition . Secondly, Mr Chairman, there is another contractor there, the Burton Construction Company, and they have been given a contract to widen the national road. They have started the work from Pakade but the difficulty is that these gentlemen do not finish a certain piece and then go to another one. They just work here and there and the distance under construction is now about 40 km . We have experienced a lot of accidents in this distance of 40 km. I have already lost a Mercedes Benz on that road. MR K M GUZANA : You should have bought a wagon. MR NOTA: I think this department should request, on our behalf, that Burton Construction should finish a certain area and when that is finished start another portion. MR R S MADIKIZELA : That should apply to Grinaker as well. MR NOTA: Grinaker has constructed a separate road that side. Another thing I feel we should bring to the notice of this department is this: There are three bridges, the Umzimvubu , Tina and Tsitsa, on the national road. Those bridges cater for a single track and as a result there are numerous accidents which occur on those bridges. You will find when a small car is on the bridge a big truck without brakes will collide with the car on the bridge. I think this is the correct department which we should request to approach the appropriate authorities. I think it is proper that those authorities should be requested to widen those bridges and erect appropriate signs. For instance, at Umzimvubu Bridge if they could erect a sign on the curve warning drivers to drive slowly and big trucks to engage low gear and reduce speed to 20 or 30 km an hour, this might help. I feel, Mr Chairman, the only sign which is present at Umzimvubu cuttings is not enough and as a result there is heavy damage to vehicles as well as loss of life. The same should apply to Tsitsa Bridge. Every day there is trouble there. If they could be given an indication as to the speed they should apply and the gear they should engage I think we could save a lot of lives. Mr Chairman, the last point is this : We are on the border between Mount Ayliff and Kokstad. We understand that the traffic officers there are most arrogant. Even to people travelling in government cars those traffic officers are rude. When they stop XG cars they point out that this is not the Transkei. I am not quartelling with these people stopping cars, but their remarks are most uncalled for. This does not lead to good relationships between the Transkei and the Republic. I appeal to the department concerned to see to that behaviour. Mr Chairman, I just wanted to make those few remarks. MR K M GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, there is only ten minutes left and the hon Minister cannot reply within that period, so I might as well use the time profitably to castigate the Minister. (Laughter) May I? D/CHAIRMAN: I think I will use my powers to give the member the benefit of the few minutes. MR GUZANA : Thank you, Mr Chairman. May I just draw the attention of the hon Minister to an observation he made in his policy speech under Subhead D - Printing, Advertisements and Publication. He says there is an insignificant increase of R1 000 under this subhead in 1976/77 as the volume of printing work required and publications bought increased. This seems to me a contradiction. He states that there has been an insignificant increase and he says the reason for the insignificant increase is because the work has increased. M/ROADS : Just consider that. MR GUZANA: As the wording stands that is the meaning we place on it, but we shall wait for an explanation. Sir, through you may we reach Messrs Grinaker's again. The 4 to 7 km of road along the national road to East London is a stretch most abominable to travel over. The road to Baziya is a trap for all cars, even for the most careful drivers . The road into the municipal location here, where hazards were created and left unmarked, has resulted in people falling into holes, breaking arms, breaking legs, just because Grinaker's could not care less what they leave behind after they dug up the surface. I believe these people had a contract to complete these portions by a fixed date. Whatever rainfall there is, there is day and night and I would suggest that if there is a penalty clause let it be brought into operation in order to pull this company up. I would say let it be known that anybody who has his car damaged as a result of an improper surface or who suffers injury as a result of the broken surface caused deliberately by a company
has a claim against that company. Then may I point out that your building programme is well behind schedule if you have as D Day 26 October. I would not be surprised if your administrative complex is not ready by then. In fact, it is my view that it will not be ready, and the approaches to Umtata along the different roads which are still now being constructed will not be ready. May I suggest to you that in your preparations for the celebrations and for Independedence Day you should provide temporary accommodation by ways of tents, prefabs, etc, and may I suggest that the rolling-stock of the Railways and Harbours Administration should be parked here for those days in order to provide accommodation , because I think accommodation is going to be at a premium on Independence Day, and in fact throughout that week. May I just make one special plea for maintenance of the road branching off from the Umtata/ Qokolweni road to Glen Avent. That road is in a very, very bad state of disrepair and it is a trap to travel to Glen Avent and out of Glen Avent. And whilst you have concentrated on the other regions, I don't know why you have forgotten or ignored the requirements of Tembuland region, particularly in respect of bridge construction over rivers. Thank you, Mr Chairman, for the short period you have given me. The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on Vote 6, Department of Roads and Works, was resumed. D/CHAIRMAN: When we adjourned, hon members, I had allowed the hon the Leader of the Opposition to make a few remarks. I will now call upon the hon the Minister of Roads and Works to reply. M/ROADS : Mr Chairman and hon members, in my reply I would like to start with bringing to the notice of the House some subheads which have been queried in this House. Subhead C - Postal, Telegraph and Telephone Services has been queried as showing a discrepancy. Here the amount is due to a typing error. The true figure is R43 500. Subhead E was also queried by this House. The increase by R60 475 is due to the fact that the number of traffic cops has increased from 18 to 57. In connection with subhead D, I think it is just the language which is at fault here. MR L L MGUDLWA : How can it be at fault? M/ROADS : What actually happens is that the volume of printing has increased but, considering the amount which is shown there, it is an insignificant increase. Secondly, Mr Chairman, I have to thank the House for the healthy and friendly manner in which the debate on this Vote was handled. Possibly the reason is that the causes of the bad roads are known. MR K M GUZANA : I will send you my garage account for damage to my car as a result of the bad condition of the roads. M/ROADS : I do not deny there has been damage to cars. One thing I am trying to say is that the causes of damage to the roads are known and those causes are beyond our control. Secondly, the other reason may be that during the lengthy debates on roads and bridges most of the hon members lost their stings there. (Laughter) However, I thank the hon members for their constructive criticism. I would like to inform the House that the road from Ndabakazi to Tsomo is being given out on contract to a company which is going to be responsible for the maintenance of the road and the regravelling. That therefore implies that the unit which has been engaged in those parts will be more or less drawn to the interior. The same applies to Road No 4 from Maguwheni to Port St John's. It is also to be given out on contract, and it also follows that most of the units will be involved in working in the interior of Eastern Pondoland. I think that will give us enough time to attend to the road to the Great Place at Qaukeni. MR L L MGUDLWA : What about the Great Place at Sitebe ? M/ROADS : Hon members, I will not deal with each and every member's contribution to this debate. However, there are certain things I must put before this House. The Department of Roads and Works is a service department, so that in allocating what work is to be done we are more or less controlled by the various other departments — namely, Education and Justice in particular ― so that with the new police stations which have been built and the classrooms which have to be built it is through the instructions of these departments that we work. Referring to the enlargement of the bridges along the Tsitsa, Tina and Umzimvubu Rivers, 278.
I would like to inform the hon member for Mount Ayliff that there is a company which is involved in doing that work and that work is the responsibility of the National Transport Commission. At the present moment they are busy putting up the new bridge at the Kei River. Possibly after that has been completed they will see what else they can do. Another question raised by the hon Chief Majeke from Qumbu was the question of the long grass along the roads. It is the intention of the department to instruct private contractors and our own employees to attend to the cutting of this long grass. Mention has also been made of the machines which stand idle along the roads. I wish to inform the House that at the present moment we are short of about 58 operators. Applications have been made for the department to construct bridges at various places, but I wish to inform the House that we have a long list of applications for bridges so when these bridges are not put right at the required time, please, hon members, do not say that we pay no attention to what you ask. It is a question of when we are through with the list we have on hand at present and then we shall attend to your requests. MR K M GUZANA: How many were constructed over the last financial year? M/ROADS : Many. MR GUZANA: What is "many" ? M/ROADS : In connection with the compliant of the hon the Leader of the Opposition about Grinaker's and the national road to East London, the matter will be referred to the contractors concerned . I must repeat, hon members, that I thank you very sincerely for the manner in which you have handled this debate and I now move that Vote 6 be passed to stand part of the Schedule. M/HEALTH : I second, Mr Chairman. The sum of R37 476 000 in respect of Vote 6, Department of Roads and Works, was passed to stand part of the Schedule.
POLICY SPEECH :
MINISTER OF HEALTH
It is my honour to present to you , Sir, and the House details of the proposed expenditure of my department for the current financial year. However, Mr Chairman and honourable members, in the light of the present financial situation it is my earnest desire to set before the House a vote which will have a minimum inflationary effect upon our overall economy as enunciated by the Honourable the Minister of Finance during his budget speech in this House and yet I believe that this attempt will provide a good return in terms of service for expended funds. Mr Chairman, though it is not my wish to burden you with details of the printed estimates on my vote under its different sub-heads, I however feel it incumbent upon me to lay emphasis on certain aspects of my vote without being long-winded. Honourable members will realise that in the previous financial year a sum of R2 530 000 was allocated for Salaries, Wages and allowances. This year, Mr Chairman, I request a sum of R7 447 700 an increase of 194,3 % over last year's figure. This increase is due to the take-over of mission hospitals as previously their salaries were subsidised from Sub-Heads K, L and N. Whilst on the subject of the take-over of mission hospitals, it will be observed that this process has in effect affected several Sub-heads, namely, Sub-head B: Subsistence and Transport ; It will be appreciated Mr Chairman that Transport is a vital element with regard to the activity of any department which functions with many outstations such as is the case with my Department. A sum of R754 400 asked for under this heading will be used for the transport of indigent patients and for the transport of staff for the supervision and implementation of services throughout the Transkei. It should be mentioned at this stage that during the past year great use has been made of internal air transport. This has been found to be both economical and to permit greater flexibility of movement by our Senior Supervisory Staff. The increase in the number of State Hospitals as reflected in the estimates of expenditure has further caused an increase on Sub-heads C: Postal, Telegraph and Telephone services and also Sub-head D : Printing, Advertisements and Stationary. Mr Chairman, it is common cause that there have been complaints about the manner in which patients are fed in some of our Hospitals. In the light of this and other considerations I am this year under Sub-head F requesting an allocation, which might seem massive, of R5 690 600 an
increase of 209 % over last year's figure. This item will provide for the feeding of patients, for the supply of drugs, dressings, surgical instruments and equipment at State Hospitals. I want to give this House an assurance that this figure has been carefully determined and has been so calculated as to provide for the essential existing service in view of the current financial restrictions. Mr Chairman, Sır, having promised not to be longwinded on my explanation on these Sub-heads, I now wish to describe what I regard to be the determinants of the future health service of the Transkei. The task of providing a Health Service without financial restraint is one which is extremely simple. On the other hand to provide a reasonable standard of health care with severely limited financial resources is taxing in the extreme with regard to planning, financial management and ingenuity. However, Honourable members, it is necessary that we face squarely the necessities of life so that our nation may enjoy life in its fullest sense. By this I mean we must in the interest of our national economy concentrate on practical structures, so that increased facilities may be supplied. This must be so if we are to provide a fair distribution of health services throughout the Transkei as soon as possible. Mr Chairman, it has been proved already that this concept is possible and practical. The evidence thereof is apparent in our system of district clinics. At present 131 clinics are in operation throughout the Transkei. Further to this an estimate of the number of clinics required, based on each member of the population requiring a consultation each day of the week for one week per year, has been made. It is felt that a clinic working optimally can attend to 100 patients per day. These figures indicate that we require a minimum of 360 clinics. Mr Chairman, it must be understood that I say a minimum number of clinics required in the Transkei. In the light of what I have already said, it will be my Department's policy to concentrate upon clinic development during the present financial year. Be that as it may, Mr Chairman and Honourable members, it is essential that we should consider the financial implications of this venture. A clinic and nurses' quarters if built of brick and mortar according to the standard plan which has been decided upon would cost R20 000. This means that if only 20 clinics were built this would amount to R400 000 — a figure of nearly half a million rand for the construction only whereas my estimate, Mr Chairman, is that 400 clinics could be built for this sum. Life at best is a compromise, Mr Chairman, and allow a me to say policy also is frequently a compromise compromise between desire and reality. If what I have said is acceptable I intend therefore, as a matter of urgency and the need to spread health services in the Transkei during these formative years, to persuade Tribal Authorities to construct clinics out of local materials so that my Department may as speedily as possible provide the staff and the materials needed to commence the functioning of a clinic in their specific areas. I will explain this further when I reply. MR K M GUZANA : What is the use of telling us afterwards ? We want to know what this entails before we speak . M/HEALTH : Mr Chairman, what it implies is that I am going to request a tribal or local authority to construct three rondavels out of local materials. One can be used as a consulting room ; one for maternity; and one for storing medicines. My department would then build accommodation for the nurses. Now, once these clinics are already in operation funds can be then budgeted for the construction of permanent structures, depending of course on the financial situation of the country at that time. You may well ask why I am labouring this point. The reason, Mr Chairman and Honourable members, is that you as members of this Legislative Assembly are able to assist my Department and the Transkei nation by encouraging the use of low-cost structures rather than high-cost buildings in these times of need . It is through you that the Transkei nation can recognise and accept constructive compromise in an adult and responsible manner. Priority must be given to basic requirements of our population before we proceed to refinements. I may mention with regret that last year owing to the effects of inflation the commencement of certain clinics though inspected and found suitable had to be delayed. However the commencement of as many of these clinics
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as possible will take place during this financial year. In passing I want to add that the clinics and the attendant nursing sisters will prevent our overtaxed hospitals from being inundated by conditions which are easily treatable within the community. The greatest function of a clinic however, is the prevention of illness. This can be achieved through the co-operation of leaders of the communities in stimulating the community towards immunisation against communicable diseases and with regard to health Education. Each clinic Sister is required to concentrate upon the education of the community with regard to nutritional requirements, the role of hygiene in preventing illness and other general preventative measures. To this end ,honourable members will surely be pleased to know that 744,000 doses of immunising materials were issued to hospitals and clinics during the past year. I want to assure the honourable members that this campaign will be relaxed even during this current year. Mr Chairman, the second element of our health service is the hospitals of which we now have 31. There are at present 6,500 hospital beds in the Transkei. These hospitals, honourable members, provide the means by which the District Clinic Service may function , as the success of a District Clinic system is dependent upon the hospitals for the referral of severely ill patients. Furthermore it is the explicit policy of my Department that control of district clinics be effected by the hospital in the area where such clinic is situated and not directly by Head Office personnel. This clearly emphasizes how essential it is for the existence of suitably placed hospitals. I submit, Mr Chairman, that the Transkei, for the foreseeable future, only requires relatively few hospitals . These will be situated in areas that are too far from existing services, namely areas such as Idutywa, Maluti and St. Marks. Idutywa could also provide hospitalisation for Willowvale District in order to relieve pressure on Butterworth Hospital. Certain other hospitals require major additions. These are : All Saints Hospital in Engcobo District. Mount Ayliff Hospital and St Elizabeth Hospital in Lusikisiki. To elaborate on why I feel that these hospitals require major additions, the greater plan in the case of All Saints Hospital which was commenced and then stopped 5 years ago owing to financial reasons should now be completed. Secondly though Mt Ayliff is strategically placed and drains a large proportion of the population it however has inadequate facilities. Lastly, St Elizabeth's Hospital is under extreme pressure due to the population explosion experienced in Lusikisiki following the introduction of the Magwa Tea Project. I am happy to say that this project will be commenced with during the current financial year. Mr Chairman, allow me to digress and say the task of taking over of Mission Hospitals has not been totally smooth. There have been occasions where the processing of nurses' salaries was delayed . This, honourable members, is greatly regretted. I however want to assure you that every step has been taken to avoid such inconvenience on the part of the nurses. Whilst on the subject of hospitals, honourable members will recall that I made mention of having established Hospital Boards in our then State Hospitals. It is my pleasure, Mr Chairman, to report to this House that these Boards are now functioning and will, to my mind, assist the communities they represent in bringing forward matters to my Department which they regard as beneficial both to the hospital and the communities in their respective areas. Mr Chairman, I shall have failed in my duty if I omit to mention an obvious requirement, namely: the construction of a hospital suitable for training of all types of medical practitioners, nurses and various paramedical personnel and possibly, if one may be allowed a sweet thought, a hospital which could one day be for the training of medical students. This hospital, Sir, I submit must be of a high standard and must provide all the sophistication necessary for diagnosis and treatment in this morden age. It must, further, be understood that this hospital will serve as a referral hospital for the entire Transkei and should therefore be centrally situated. This implies that the hospital will be situated here in Umtata below the existing Tembuland Section of the Umtata Hospital. Building plans are already in an advanced stage of preparation and the total cost of R30 million will be phased over a period of 8 years. At first consideration it might appear inconsistent that
as large and costly a project should be considered in the light of what I have said regarding the necessity for even distribution of medical services throughout the Transkei. I assure you, Mr Chairman, that on deeper reflection it will become apparent that this hospital will provide for specialist services in the entire Transkei. It must be understood that this hospital will not be for Umtata but for the entire Transkei. I may further mention , Mr Chairman, that a hospital of this size will of necessity require approximately 80 doctors. The facilities which will be offered will be of great attraction to medical staff and I am confident that, after Independence, staff will be found for this key institution. Mr Chairman, I now want to pass on to the next point and that is the all important subject of Training. It will be known to honourable members that medical and other students are financially assisted by the Transkeian Government. I wish to advise the House that 10 medical students are in training at the University of Natal in Durban with government assistance and 2 at Wits with Anglo American Corporation Scholarships . It is interesting and gratifying to note that every Transkeian candidate with an acceptable matriculation pass who applied to the University of Natal within the specified time this year was accepted. At this juncture, Mr Chairman, I wish to express my thanks to the University of Natal Medical School at King Edward the VIII Hospital in Durban for its assistance and to express my sadness that this great institution will shortly be closed as a medical school. I trust that the new medical school which will be situated at Garankuwa in the Transvaal will be able to emulate the distinguished record of the University of Natal. Mr Chairman and honourable members, it is my contention, and I believe your wish that the training of personnel which we require for our health services should be done within the Transkei. Local training is desirable, as in this way the training given will be tailored to meet the exacting requirements of our particular situation. At present 818 nursing training posts exist. It is my intention to increase the number of these posts and to introduce, as soon as possible, training courses in Public Health Nursing, Primary Health Care and Psychiatric Nursing. It is also my intention to institute the training of Medical Technologists in Umtata. The new pathology laboratory which is being completed here in Umtata will provide an excellent means for the training of Medical Technologists. Coming back nearer home, I want to inform honourable members that the initial phase of improving the standard of facilities for patients in Umtata is at present in hand. The general section of the hospital will move to the Tembuland Section where new theatres are presently under construction and an extremely sophisticated and modern laboratory is nearing completion. This switch over will necessitate the removal or transfer of tuberculosis patients to the present general section where an out-patients department has been designed to provide for diagnosis of Tuberculosis . Honourable members will remember that in my Policy Speech last year, I made mention of a Psychiatric hospital to be opened at Mbizweni in the district of Umzimkulu. I am happy to inform the House that this hospital was opened on the 1st May 1976. This hospital which will ultimately accommodate 800 patients at a cost of approximately R4 million will initially cater for 200 patients. This hospital will also provide the means for the training of psychiatric nurses. Mr Chairman, like in all the other independent states, an independent Transkei will need to have a creation of a medical council as well as a nursing council. I have pleasure in advising the House that I had intended to table legislation, during this current Session, to provide for these Councils . This will now be done when we meet in October. These councils will function entirely independent of the councils in the Republic of South Africa but close co-operation between the corresponding bodies will exist in order that equal standards may be maintained. It will be necessary for all medical and dental practitloners, pharmacists and supplentary health professionals working in the Transkei to register with the Transkeian Medical Council . Nurses of all categories will similarly be required to register with the Transkeian Nursing Council if they wish to practise their profession in the Transkei. Before I conclude, Mr Chairman, allow me to express my appreciation to those sons and daughters of the Transkei who have felt it their duty to abandon their lucrative private practices in order to join the Government service . To quote but a few, I may mention Dr Bikitsha who was appoi-
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nted Assistant Secretary (Professional) as from December 1975, Dr Piliso who was appointed Chief Medical Officer and last but not least Dr Luswazi who has been appointed as Principal Specialist as from the 1st May 1976. Dr Luswazi will also serve as a Medical Superintendent for the Umtata Hospital. I want to assure them that this sacrifice on their part is appreciated not only by the Government but also by all the people of the Transkei. Lastly, Mr Chairman, I want to take this opportunity of thanking the members of my Department for the dedicated manner in which they have performed their duties during the past year and trust that they will carry on the good work even when the Transkei is independent. I now move that vote 7 be approved by this House. M/ROADS : I second. MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman and hon members, this policy speech of the hon the Minister of Health is not laden with figures, but is very clear on policy and administration. It is good to note that the department has taken up a positive and responsible attitude to its responsibilities for the health and welfare of the people of the Transkei. I am happy to note that there is provision for internal air transport not only to help indigent patients but also to assist emergency situations which require immediate medical attention to save limb and life. I can very well see the merit in providing such a service where, if the patient cannot get to the hospital, then the doctor goes to the patient even in the remote fastnesses of the Transkei, and I do hope this quick service in the name of health will also incorporate mercy flights and also flights from the Transkei to places and hospital centres outside the Transkei. I am also intrigued by the device which the hon the Minister of Health is going to use in order to have more clinics out of a little less money. If highly sophisticated and modern clinics can be built at a cost of R400 000 and only number 20, why not build 400 clinics with the amount, so long as the service inside the huts is equal to the service in any sophisticated building. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR GUZANA: If we have 400 clinics where we could have spent R400 000 for only 20 clinics, then it means we will have a clinic for the cost of R1 000. In fact, I would say that some of that R1 000 should be diverted to medicines, equipment and so on inside that very humble rondavel. If I were to express my own views, Mr Minister, may I say quite clearly that I would prefer the hut in which the clinic operates to a square European-type building with zinc roof, etc, which is cold in winter, hot in summer, and never enjoying the even temperature of a rondavel. All we need to do is to have a high wall, well-constructed thatched roof, big windows, sufficient ventilation , and you have got the best health conditions - better than a European- type house. If I may say so, Mr Minister, I get the impression that the Health Department is taking health services to the people rather than bringing people into hospitals for treatment.
M/HEALTH : That is the idea. MR GUZANA : I want to encourage this principle to the utmost for the simple reason that illness and conditions of people are aggravated when they move from the home to the hospital, regard being had to the means of conveyance, than when the doctor or nurse or district nurse goes to the home of the patient and treats him there. May I sound a note of warning on this matter of the immunization of members of the public and also children and pupils at schools - in particular in relation to the pupils at school . What I have noticed is that upon an unnamed date and time, unknown to parents, your nurses come down by way of a blitz on a school , immunize the children and the children get home with marks of inoculation and vaccination and what have you. I would request that the parents should be warned a week or so beforehand, as some of their children who attend school have certain allergies which usually manifest themselves after the process of inoculation or vaccination, and the parent is faced with a situation where a child suffers extreme allergic symptoms. A notice in advance could assist in this regard, where parents of children who are allergic to a particular type of immunization may send the child along with a note to the nurses so that they know what they are dealing with and know what reaction to expect and probably give the child something to take, if it is allergic, after the inoculation or vaccination. M/HEALTH : Mr Chairman , I crave your indulgence. This fifteen-minute period puts a speaker off his stroke. Could he not speak in one spell ? D/CHAIRMAN : We are now adjourning for tea.
After Tea Adjournment. CHIEF G B SIYABALALA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I rise to speak in support of the policy speech by the hon the Minister of Health. It is a fact that the policy speech is a straightforward one. It is difficult for anyone to criticize but I feel there should be additions. We have noted all that has been enunciated by the hon Minister, including the 360 clinics which are needed. We have heard about the clinics opened on 1 May 1976. We are pleased that things mentioned in the last policy speech should be referred to in the current policy speech. We wish that if something is mentioned one year we should see the results the following year. In this policy speech we feel there are practical matters, which make us very happy as Transkeian citizens . The hon Minister has suggested the construction of rondavels for these clinics and that is very practical . 1 think the suggestion will make it possible for every area to have a clinic. The question of building clinics has been a formidable one, but now I think it will be possible because the usual thing was for people to have to collect R1 500 if they wished to build a clinic and the department would assist to the tune of R3 500. It became dfficult in certain localities because some localities would also be faced with the building of schools, whereas a clinic would be urgently required. It would thus be impossible for the area to build both a school and a clinic because the prices charged by the contractors are exorbitant. We welcome the suggestion by the hon Minitser that our areas build clinics on a cheap basis and then the department will supplement that after some time. What we require is health services, not fine buildings . These rondavels may be used to accommodate the nurses and to store medicines. It was the high cost of construction which impeded the building of clinics in the past. We are bound to commend the hon Minister for bringing up such a practical solution. We are pleased to note from the policy speech that certain medical officers and specialists have been appointed, including such notable men as Dr Bikitsha and Dr Luswazi, who are occupying very high positions in the health structure . We are sure your policy will encourage us and we are certain that in the near future we will learn that these medical officials are in higher grades. As Transkeians we do not see why these men should not rise to higher posts. I will mention something now which arises out of the policy speech in connection with hospitals to be built in the future. Mention was made of hospitals to be built in Idutywa, St Mark's and Maluti. I believe the areas mentioned are strategic points, which shows that the department has made a careful study of the needs of the country . We are sorry it is not possible to have a hospital in Cofimvaba, but we are happy there will be one in St Mark's. Someone beside me is saying that things always start in our area and why can't they start elsewhere. I think it is a good thing, because this is the first time anything will start in Cofimvaba. I noted the hospital in Idutywa because for health reasons Idutywa is an isolated area, and Maluti likewise. I wish to say something about the All Saints' Hospital in Engcobo district. We have heard there are plans afoot in regard to that hospital and I wish to state that there is some carelessness about the handling of patients in that hospital . In Cofimvaba and Nqamakwe people are hospitalized at All Saints' Hospital and the majority of Engcobo people, Engcobo being a large district, also receive treatment there. A sick person is brought to All Saints' in the morning and is not attended to until the evening. We do not know, Sir, but your department knows better whether it is because there is only one doctor there - Dr Ingle. If the question is that there is only one doctor there the department is now requested to appoint more doctors to that hospital. I do not see what more I can add, because the policy speech has covered many of our desires. I would just like to add that it is the usual thing for a clinic to be for a month without any medicines, and nurses there are not paid for some months at times. With those few words I support the policy speech. MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman and hon members, may I add just to the penultimate comment of the hon member for St Mark's. The delay in the treatment of persons who go to the outpatients' department of hospitals is a chronic situation which you find in all hospitals, but I think this situation can easily be solved when our clinics in the various disctrits and administrative areas become active centres of health treatment, so that instead of the patient coming to the hospital and waiting the whole day in order to have his dislocated collarbone set he will have it set at the clinic; so that if he has a severe cold, instead of going to the 281 .
outpatiens' department and waiting eight hours for attention he gets this attention at the clinic level . Therefore it is my view that in order to avoid that frustration and anxiety and a tendency to criticize hospital personnel , we must put our shoulders to the wheel, put up our clinics and then the problem will be solved without necessarily castigating hospital personne!. Sir, I commend the thought of a central hospital which will dispense specialized treatment to people who come to that hospital, and I share your ideal that such a hospital will grow to such a degree that it will provide training for medical students, but let me say that I am not in support of the concept that our training of medical practitioners or the training of nurses should become a parochial affair. I believe that the training of medical personnel nurses and all the various categories of medical personnel should be something which should be done not only in the Transkei but outside the Transkei, in the Republic and in countries outside South Africa, for the simple reason that we may not be able for the next two years or so to catch up with all the development in the medical field that has taken place in centres outside the Transkei, and yet we need that training and that technique and that science in order to keep our people healthy in the Transkei . After all, the various diseases and illnesses are common to humanity almost throughout the world, and the Transkei has no particular situation which will require a doctor or nurse to be trained specifically in the Transkei in order to be relevant to the situation in which he will operate after completing his training. I am happy that what was originally intended to be a prison in the Umzimkulu district has now turned out to be a psychiatric hospital . If indeed a person would have to sought rehabilitate the prisoner, at least I think it is more important to rehal.bitate one's health, particularly his mental condition, and I am sure, Mr Minister, you will not have any lack of patients in that centre. (Laughter) I join with you in congratulating these three doctors who have offered their services to your department, but I have this caveat to make. There is such a dearth of medical practitioners that to my mind it is a loss to the health ofthe people of the Transkei when doctors are drawn into administration and professional services in your department, when they could be healing the sick at the hospitals. Now, I have only five minutes and I will just tick off the further points. May I thank you for improving the lot of the medical aides. Now they go under a respectable name and they have had a decent scale of pay drawn up for them. My only plea now is that they should be adjusted to a reasonable notch, regard being had to the fact that these men have had 30 and more years' service in this field, and we ought to adjust their scale. May I suggest that State clinics should take precedence over private clinics and may I strongly suggest, Sir, that every individual who is entitled by training to prescribe a pill, to give medicine, to treat a patient apart from the medical practitioners must be under the control of the Department of Health . My fear is that there are nurses practising privately and not under the discipline of the Department of Health, and not accountable to the Department of Health and not under the supervisory eye of your department's personnel, who are a law unto themselves, and it is my view that these people must be under the Department of Health and, if need be, legislation should be put through this House in order to ensure this. (Interjections) I never said I wanted private clinics closed down. All I said is that State clinics should receive preference over private clinics, and I said people who are dispensing medicine - not so much the chemist, but people who are trained nurses, let us say, who are dispensing medicines and giving treatment and are not under the control of the Department of Health must be brought under that control . After all, there is a code of ethics and a code of discipline to which they must subscribe ifthey are in the health field, and these people must not be a law unto themselves. Thank you , Mr Chairman.
CHIEF M N MATANZIMA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to applaud the policy speech by the hon Minister. This is where I shall begin, Mr Chairman. I would say that 65 members here have a duty to establish clinics in their respective areas . I am referring to the chiefs who are members of this Assembly. There are people who have been boasting that they are the representatives of the people. It is now time for them to show that they are representatives of the people. There is a suggestion that rondavels be constructed for clinic buildings . That is very easy for people who mean to work, such as chiefs and headmen. MR K M GUZANA : And subchiefs too. CHIEF MATANZIMA : There are chiefs who are given expensive gifts by their people. I know that certain people will
gainsay what I say, but I am a chief and I know what I am talking about. If, instead of giving suits and such expensive gifts to chiefs, this money should be used to build clinics there would be many clinics. I will now mention what has been hinted at by the hon the Leader of the Opposition, that when children are to be immunized the parents should be notified. I will not say I am opposed to the idea, but 1 have this in mind. There is a tendency that once a locality hears that there is immunization against a certain type of disease I fear that in certain areas you will not see a single child in that school. As regards health services I will say there is a locality known as Queensdale which is near Cofimvaba. There are buildings there which are now intended to be used as a gaol . I would be thankful if the hon Minister would persuade the authorities to allow those buildings to be used as a mental institution instead of a gaol . There is hardly a district without a gaol and there is no need for this multiplicity of gaols . What we require are hospitals. That institution would also be a help to us in Cofimvaba . It is difficult to send our mental patients to Fort Beaufort or Queenstown because we are told when we get there to take these patients back to the Transkei . We cannot help mentioning that the South African Government sometimes creates confusion . We understand there is this devaluation of the rand but we do not see what connection it has with our health. We realise that R30 million will put us in a position to build a hospital, but I wonder why this project is supposed to cover eight years when we have so much money in Pretoria from our own taxes. Instead of increasing the number of medical schools the only medical school has now been closed . That is why I say we are not far from saying that the South African Government is in the habit of creating an impossible position . We say we are short of doctors but the South African Government has closed the only medical school we have. I do not know what is the idea of transferring this school to Garankuwa and I do not see why the present school was closed in preference to that . Mr Chairman, I appeal to the hon Minister to put this small point right. It is possible that the hon Minister might not be aware of it, because it is not mentioned in his policy speech. Tribal authorities write to the depatrment but when the correspondence is followed up there is no trace of it in your department. We do not know what the reason is, but when we approach your department to follow up correspondence we find the whole file is lost or an important document is missing. We feel probably your officers there might be fighting for positions. One of the reasons why the salaries of nurses who have been taken over are not paid at times is because the relevant correspondence is missing, and this also results in the fact that medical supplies are not sent to the clinics for up to three months. We appeal to you and when we visit your department we shall point out the exact cases I am referring to. At Cofimvaba there is no comprehensive health scheme. It is nonexistent there. I see government vehicles going about in other places treating people, but we do not see this at Cofimvaba and we want to know why. D/CHAIRMAN: I want to warn the next two or three speakers to rule out the question of clinics and the psychiatric hospital at Umzimkulu . MR É V NDAMASE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to speak in support of Vote 7 by the hon the Minister of Health . It is indeed very unfortunate that discussion on clinics should be discouraged at this stage, because as far as we are concerned people from the country consider the existence of clinics is very important to us. Hon members I hope will allow me to digress a bit, and in doing so mention something which has perhaps not entered the minds of many other speakers. The lead which the hon the Leader of the Opposition has given in enlightening this House on the importance of using low-cost structures as clinics leads me to say that we African people are inclined to be gullible. Just because iron-roofed houses are the product of the white man we think they are good. I think the Whites are good people. You will excuse me, Mr Chairman, but I will have missed the most important point in my canvassing of this Vote if I miss mentioning this . There is nothing wrong with this type of structure except that we fear when struck by lightning it will easily be destroyed. As far as health is concerned it is the healthiest type of structure . You will also allow me to commend the wonderful efforts of the hon the Minister of Health in working hard for the Africanization of top positions in his department. The presence of our people in these top positions is very encouraging to us, especially now that among your staff there is a member of the Ndamase family, and especially now that among the doctors there is my
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brother-in-law. (Laughter) This is indeed history in the making. There is every reason to believe that we are actually going to get our independence. I want to take this opportunity to bring to the notice of the House another very important factor. I have noticed with a great deal of amusement that our people have refrained from that silly pernicious habit of making use of witch-doctors . In my area, for instance , I get appeals from people who seek the establishment of a hospital in the area. It is indeed unfortunate that the big house which is used for prisoners at Libode cannot be converted into a hospital because there are two gaol structures not very far from each other in the area. There is one at Libode and another at Ngqeleni, and members from these two districts will agree with me that there are not enough prisoners to be kept in these wonderful structures. I therefore think it would definitely help us a lot if prisoners from Libode could be transferred to the gaol at Ngqeleni . Mr Chairman, there has been a hue and cry for the establishment of a hospital at Libode. At Libode there are very few clinics . People have to travel long distances to reach the existing hospitals and in most cases when they reach these hospitals they are told there is no accommodation available, which means that these very sick people must be taken to yet another very far-off place Umtata Hospital. I want to make it very clear to the hon the Minister of Health that if he does not work hard for the establishment of a hospital in Libode he will not enjoy my support . (Laughter) I will do everything possible to see to it that he is outvoted . We have confidence in him because he is a very easy man to approach . Though a chief, he has the common touch. Whenever you have any difficulty and you decide to solicit help from him you find it is readily available. Perhaps hon members will think I am not doing the right thing when I pay a personal compliment, but the truth is that if you do good you expect people to thank you for it. That is indeed very encouraging. There is another very disturbing feature which has come to my notice. I have been reliably informed that an Indian doctor has unsuccessfully applied for a post at the Umtata General Hospital . I am told that this man, though so suitably qualified, could not be made use of on the grounds that he belonged to another race group . Now, my question is: Don't we realise that the Transkei is suffering from a serious shortage of medical doctors ? D/CHAIRMAN : I am afraid the hon member is discussing an issue that is not included in the policy speech of the hon Minister, and if he wants to get information about that particular case he is talking about, he should have put that as a question . MR NDAMASE : Mr Chairman, I was discussing an issue which I felt was very important to us all. I will not pursue the matter much further because at least we all know about it now, and definitely something will be done about it. MR N JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up in support of the policy speech by the hon the Minister of Health . He has made a clear statement and there are no difficulties in this statement because of its clarity. Though we have been stopped from talking about clinics, I would like to make certain remarks in connection with the previous statement by the hon Minister in respect of last year. He promised in that statement that he would see to it that clinics were constructed on such a scale that any patient would find it easy to reach a clinic. This pleased us very much, particularly the people who live in the administrative areas. It was stated that rondavels would be put up and that would suit the people in the administrative areas. Even at the present time we are still expecting that such clinics are going to be built. I would go further and say that in Qumbu some people were willing to lend out their own rondavels to be used as clinics . This is something of great value as far as the people are concerned, so much so that we would be pleased if your department will not oppose those people who offer their huts for use as clinics. Another matter I wish to bring to your notice is that there is a complaint from the people that when they bring their sick to the hospital in Umtata they receive no attention. At times they wait until the day is far advanced into evening and some of these people have no proper sleeping accommodation but they use benches at the hospital, where they sleep right through the night. It happens that some of these patients die at this stage without having had the attention of any medical officer. These are not isolated happenings , but the people frequently bring up this complaint. I am saying this not merely from hearsay, but from personal experience . At one time I was an inmate at the Umtata Ho when I witnessed such happenings . This matter should not be treated lightly and you should not
think I am exaggerating, because I am stating facts. We commend all the other things mentioned in your policy statement and we do support your speech. Thank you, Mr Chairman . MR P S KAKUDI : Mr Chairman and hon members, in supporting the policy speech by the hon the Minister of Health I remember words uttered by the hon the Chief Minister in his budget speech. He said there is an Afrikaans 669 saying " 'n boer maak ' plan” -- and I notice the hon the Minister of Health has introduced this plan because I am aware that all the hon members representing their areas here were worried about one thing. Although the Chairman has told us not to repeat the subject of clinics, I feel I must make some mention of this. The hon the Minister of Health has advised us not to be so interested in putting up beautiful buildings for clinics, because I feel all members were delaying the building of clinics because of the plans which were laid down for clinics. Now that buildings of lower cost can be built people will be relieved of the complaints about expensive buildings. We are happy about the training which will be received by the nurses from wherever they receive their training. We are all sure that the qualifications of our people in health services is a bit low. I would suggest that people go out recruiting people to join the health services . One other matter is the control of the clinics in the rural areas. The expense of running clinics if taken over by the hospitals near to them will be reduced . We are aware that the hospital boards will be able to deal with all complaints and to rectify whatever complaints are brought by the people. It is common to hear people complaining about the treatment they receive at a particular hospital. It is difficult for whoever is in charge of the hospital to go into the matter and find out the treatment of any particular patient, but we are expecting the hospital boards to deal with these complaints and rectify them. In our area we may not make a demand for a hospital to be built but we would ask for the existing hospitals to be extended . Maternity cases are always returned home because there is no accommodation for them. Some patients are released even before they are cured because of lack of accommodation, and then the disease breaks out again when the patient gets home. You find some patients accommodated in these hospitals even sleeping on the floor because all the beds are occupied . We are happy to have a policy speech which shows that everything is being done for the good of the people. Thank you, Mr Chairman. D/CHAIRMAN : Hon members, you will no doubt agree with me that this policy speech has now been sufficiently debated . That being the case I will now call upon the Minister to reply. M/HEALTH : Mr Chairman and hon members , I am bound to thank the hon members who took part in this debate. Everyone who took part in this debate praised my department's efforts. I would not like to bluff myself and say that all is well, because I am aware of the fact that there are certain things to be rectified in my department. I am happy, however, that you are pleased with my efforts. I might say that in the remarks made by the hon the Leader of the Opposition, particularly when he was talking about immunization of school-children, it is indeed true that it would be worth while if parents could be informed well beforehand so that they could know what to expect. I would like, however, to inform this House that my department always informs the principals of the various schools beforehand that a team will be coming for immunization, the belief that the principal will in turn , through the children, inform the parents. To that extent even headmen are made aware of this in the belief that they will organize a meeting and inform the parents well before time, but it is apparent from the remarks made by the hon the Leader of the Opposition that it might be there are some principals who do not tell the children to tell the parents, or the headmen who do not inform their people about immunization about to take place. I will however, with my department, see if it will not be possible to draw up an itinerary for an area, have this itinerary sent to the magistrate of the district so that he in turn might, during his quarterly meeting, discuss this aspect. What I am trying to say is that we shall see to the practicability of this idea. MR K M GUZANA : And what about the circuit inspector ? M/HEALTH : I accept that suggestion that even the circuit inspector could be informed. I must with regret, Mr Chairman, accept the fact that at some clinics and some hospitals there has been a shortage of drugs. I want to inform this House that at the present moment we still rely for our supply from the central stores in Pretoria. More
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Forest revenue for 1975/76 is close to R2 million and the forest industry provides employment for 7500 citizens. When it is in full production the area of 62 250 ha at present under trees will generate revenue of about R3 million per annum and the number of employees will increase to about 8 000. The Transkei is so richly endowed with soil, climate and people that the area under forest can easily be extended by another 100 000 ha. Extension of the forest area will require large injections of capital, mainly in the form of wages and salaries, as well as the creation of large woodprocessing factories. It is not beyond possibility for exports of timber products derived from 100 000 ha to amount to R25 million a year in the foreseeable future. Let us consider the implications. For a young country to be truly independent it should stand as much as possible on its own feet economically and be less dependent on other countries for financial assistance A timber export industry could do much to assist in solving balance of payments problems. A young country requires an inflow of investment capital to finance its development For the establishment of 100 000 ha of plantation an investment of about R20 million will be needed of which 90% or R18 million is in the form of wages and salaries paid in the Transkei. A further R50 million will be required for the establishment of sawmills and other timber processing factories. All or part of this investment can be provided by private enterprise. When all or part of the cost of establishment is borne by Governement it is normal practice to employ loan funds for this purpose as the benefits will be reaped by future generations who will also redeem the loans. But the new plantations will be established for strictly economic reasons, that is to say, to earn the greatest possible amount of foreign exchange, and it seems advisable not to involve government directly in such business enterprises. Unlike oil and other minerals, timber is a renewable resource and the forests and plantations of the Transkei can continue to produce timber for as long as desired, given wise management. This also leads to stability of employment in the forest industry. But if creation of a natural resource is important the development of human resources is even more so. There is no point in adopting a forest policy unless there are men capable of carrying it out. The expansion of the forest area by 100 000 ha and the establishment of new timber processing factories would have the consequence of doubling the number of people directly employed by about 20 professional forest officers, 120 foresters and 7 500 other employees. A lack of professional forest officers is a severe handicap for any young country. These are the men who will provide the top managers of the future, who will be the framers of policy and, most important, will be needed to adapt forestry practices to the national culture. Only Transkeians can do this for the Transkei. The need for these men is great and so it is gratifying to learn that the University of Fort Hare is providing a forest graduate course with effect from the 1976 academic year. Selected students will continue to be trained as foresters in the technical grades at Fort Cox in the Ciskei for the time being. But it is time that this policy be reviewed with the object of training Transkeian foresters in the Transkei. Many more foresters will be needed by government and by private enterprise if the forest industry is expanded . It is policy not to export raw materials but to process them as much as possible in the Transkei . This provides employment in harvesting operations in the plantations and in the processing plants. There is an increasing demand for men with technical training as fitters and turners, motor mechanics, electricians, mill operators and so on, and at the same time a crippling shortage of these artisans. Development of the timber industry depends on training of a sufficient number of men each year or reversing the drain of good men away from the Transkei. It will be seen that in order to develop the timber industry it is necessary to develop the human resources. Attention must be drawn to the danger of forest extension, agricultural production and population growth getting out of phase. While much of the forest extension would be on land with low agricultural productivity and relatively sparse population , withdrawal of land from food production in the face of rising population growth could be accomplished safely only when food production on the remaining land is increased: It is therefore policy to require of private enterprise when and if they undertake afforestation projects to develop agricultural production on portion of the area
often than not it does happen that my department will requisition for supplies and these will take much longer than we had anticipated, so much that we have felt that it is high time that we had our own central stores here in the Transkei in order to enable our clinics and hospitals to order direct from a central store within the Transkei. To this end tenders are open to all pharmaceutical firms who would like to supply the Transkei . It is believed that once we can have our own central stores here this shortage of drugs will be obviated . I would like to assure the hon the Leader of the Opposition that the light aircraft I mentioned in my policy speech could also be used for mercy flights if need be. I accept the fact that we have a shortage of doctors in the Transkei and it might seem a waste of manpower when we have to fill positions in head office with these doctors, but I want to assure the hon members that the type of doctors we have at head office are dedicated men who not only do office work but also take sessions at hospitals, so whilst their duty is in the office they still feel they can serve better if they can also assist in the hospital. This is actually happening, Mr Chairman. I agree with the hon the Leader ofthe Opposition that private clinics should come secondary to State clinics, because indeed State Clinics can be controlled by State doctors. More often than not, I might say that you find in some of these private clinics that things are done which are not in keeping with health standards. To quote an example, you will find a person will be injected with penicillin which is two years out of date but, Mr Chairman, at the present moment we are governed by the Health Act of the Republican Government which does not specifically say these clinics have to be controlled, which does not specifically say they have to be inspected. Now you will realise that our hands are therefore tied until such time as we can pass our own legislation which will regulate these private clinics. This is really causing us much concern, Mr Chairman, but we can only say that for the present they are serving a purpose because of the shortage of clinics in the entire Transkei. Without making any promises, we shall investigate the possibility of this Queensdale prison or whatever it is. Perhaps if it is found to be suitable, negotiations can be made with the department concerned to see if it cannot be handed over to us. We are only too pleased to have standing structures in which we can start our hospitals. I do not mean that the hon member must ask next year, if I am still Minister of Health, why there is no hospital at Queensdale. With regard to the correspondence which goes missing in my department, I am sorry to say this has never been brought to my notice. It is a pity that when the hon Mr Ndamase was speaking the hon the Minister of Justice was not present in the House when he was suggesting that a prison at Libode could be converted into a hospital and that inmates in that gaul be sent to Ngqeleni. This is a matter which I cannot on my own decide because I would be stepping on the toes of the hon the Minister of Justice. M/JUSTICE : I have already given them the other prison at Mbizweni . M/HEALTH : I don't want to touch on the point mentioned about an Indian doctor who was not appointed. We all know that since time immemorial Indians have been debarred from coming to the Transkei. It is not a thing which started yesterday. It is not because my department is discriminating against Indians, but we are merely complying with a regulation which is already in existence and has been standing from time immemorial. If we can have our way we would take any doctor who was prepared to come to the Transkei. Mr Chairman, I think I have covered the points mentioned, otherwise I can only say I am very thankful for the co-operation shown by the hon members this afternoon. I now move that Vote 7 be approved by this House. M/JUSTICE : I second, Mr Chairman. The sum of R17 295 000 in respect of Vote 7, Department of Health, was passed to stand part of the Schedule. The Assembly adjourned until 7 pm. EVENING SESSION POLICY SPEECH : MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY Mr Chairman and Honourable Members, I am honoured to submit to you for consideration the estimates of expenditure of my Department for the 1976/77 financial year. Before I deal with the estimates, permit me to make a few remarks regarding the forestry potential of the Transkei as well as its implications for the development of our country.
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so that food production will not be reduced by the planting of trees. In summary, therefore, forest policy has the objective of helping a new politically independent Transkei to become economically independent. With this in mind, my Department has enlisted the co-operation of private enterprise in the expansion of the Transkei timber industry and a consortium comprising the Hans Merensky Trust, the Xhosa Development Corporation and S.A.P.P.I. will, with the approval of the Cabinet, purchase and operate the Government Sawmills while they are establishing an integrated timber industry at Umtata within the next few years. Furthermore, the Hans Merensky Trust has built and commissioned a large timber processing plant at Singisi in the district of Umzimkulu. This includes housing, a school, a clinic and kitchen for the employees . Resulting from this there will be a substantial decrease of R229 800 under subhead Men Insofar as nature conservation is concerned, an Environmental Impact Advisory Board will be formed by specialists in their field to advise the Government on the effects which the development of tourism, nature conservation and industry will have on the environment of the Transkei coast. The Board and its recommendations will have a profound effect on future development of the Transkei coast to the best interests of the country and its people . The Dwessa Nature Reserve will be open to the public towards the end of this year. Insofar as the Agricultural Branch is concerned, it has been decided to decentralise the services of the branch by the establishment of five regions with offices situated at five centres in the Transkei each under the direct control of a Chief Agricultural Officer, each region to be subdivided into sub-regions as follows :Umtata Region: to serve Dalindyebo and Nyanda Subregions; Qamata Region: to serve Western Tembuland (includes Glen Grey) Sub-region ; Mount Frere Region : to serve Emboland and Maluti (includes Herschel ) Sub-region ; Flagstaff Region: to serve Qaukeni and Mmzimkulu Subregions ; Butterworth Region: to serve Fingo and Gcaleka Subregions.
This will enable the Department to render a more efficient service to the farming community. Transkeian officials have been promoted and appointed to the following posts : At Tsolo Agricultural College one Chief Professional Officer and one Senior Professional Officer have, respectively been appointed Principal and Vice-Principal of the College. Another Senior Professional Officer has been promoted to Director and transferred to Head Office to understudy the Director of Agriculture . The Agricultural College has been ear-marked for replanning and expansion to cope with anticipated staff requirements . Provision for this has been made under the Roads and Works Vote. National Maize and Sorghum trials were again laid out this year at the Agricultural College by the professional staff of the Branch. Several other smaller District Trial plots were successfully laid out in twenty districts of the Transkei , most of which are faring exceptionally well and are proving of invaluable aid to extension. Progress is being made at the tea project. During the 1974/75 production season 420 tons of made tea was produced, realising R600 000 in revenue earned. In the 1975/76 production season the 500 tons of made tea will realise R800 000 earned revenue, giving a total ofjust under R1 million for the two seasons in earned revenue for the Transkei. Extensions to the Magwa Tea Factory could not be completed due to the severe damage sustained by major items of equipment for the factory during shipment from the United Kingdom . The completion of the extension will take place towards the end of the financial year. It is planned that Professional and Technical Officers of this Branch will undertake tours to various Agricultural Institutes in the Republic of South Africa and that the Professional Officers will also attend conferences abroad. Already one Transkeian Senior Professional Officer has attended a conference of the International Federation of Agricultural Producers in Washington DC, USA, as a member of a delegation of the S.A.A.U. and participated in the deliberations of this International body. It has also been approved that a Chief Professional Officer attend the next conference of the International
Association of Agricultural Economists in Nairobi , Kenya, 1976.ul Conference and Workshop orgainsed by my July in A successf Department and attended by many delegates from several Homeland Governments was held in Umtata in October last year. The Agricultural Co-operation movement which was initiated by the Branch in an attempt to increase productivity in agriculture has shown significant growth since the first Co-operative was formed in 1966 with only 1 339 members and with initial sales of R36 630 for that year. Up to the 1974/75 financial year this movement has grown to ten Co-operatives with 19 640 members and with sales amounting to R326 394 for this financial year. Although administrative problems are still being encountered in some Co-operatives, the general impression is that the movement has now firmly established itself in the Transkei and that it has a great potential to become a major factor in the development of the agricultural industry in kei theThe Trans marke.ting of agricultural products was previously controlled in terms of the old Republican Marketing Act (Act No. 26 of 1937) . The Transkei's own Marketing Act has now been promulgated , viz. , the Transkeian Marketing Act (Act No. 4 of 1974) . The Act provides for a marketing scheme to be introduced for the regulation of the marketing of various products . Arrangements are currently under way for the introduction of marketing schemes to control the marketing of the more important products in the Transkei e.g. meat, maize and wool, hides and skins. Insofar as Veterinary Services are concerned , the past year has been a very good year for the cattle industry . Livestock losses have been markedly reduced over the previous year and deaths from Red Water are less than half of the previous year's total. The Quarter Evil inoculation campaign was generally successful and this must be a contributory factor in the reduction in livestock deaths. There are some districts, however, where the stock-owners have refused to inoculate their stock and I would like to appeal to these stock owners to have their animals inoculated . My Department is doing this as a service to the farmer in an attempt to prevent the severe losses suffered annually from Quarter Evil. The new Veterinary Laboratory has been completed and the Veterinary Branch has taken occupation . It is hoped that this laboratory will make a valuable contribution towards protecting the livestock industry in the Transkei . During the past year all seconded Stock Inspectors in the field were withdrawn and the field services are now manned entirely by Transkeian Officials. For the future my Department has plans to establish Veterinary clinics at strategic places in the Transkei in order to bring clinical and First Aid services closer to the farmer . The establishment of these clinics will take some time and will depend on the availability of suitably trained staff. This training is being attended to and Stock Inspectors qualifying at Tsolo Agricultural College in the future will be qualified to render this service. Turning to the Engineering Services Branch of my Department, during the past year progress has been satisfactory on all projects even though a decrease in the tempo of work was necessary in the later months of the year due to financial considerations . Tenders have been called for the construction of the Umtata dam which will provide water for the town and for two hydro-electric installations which will supply electricity to the town. The Department will this year proceed as in the past with the construction of the Qamata and Ncora irrigation schemes, stock dams, domestic water installations and other works. In conclusion, Mr Chairman and Honourable Members, I wish to express my sincere appreciation to all members on the staff of my Department for their loyal service and dedication to the tremendous task at hand. I also thank you, Mr Chairman and the Honourable Members, for your attention and now move the approval of the estimate of expenditure for Vote 5. D/CHAIRMAN : The hon the Minister of Agriculture has delivered his policy speech. Before I open the matter for discussion I would like to warn all the people who occupy the gallery that I should not get other further reports that they are busy giggling and making a noise up there. Is there a seconder to the Minister's policy speech ? M/JUSTICE: I second, Mr Chairman. D/CHAIRMAN: Hon members, I am reliably informed that there is a motion of great importance which must
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forest management. We should therefore encourage our young men to study forestry so that they may occupy these various positions. We are pleased that a degree course has been established at Fort Hare. Let us make provision for the future, because in future we might learn of something else and even feel we should send our sons elsewhere to study forestry. Stellenbosch University is always in a position to take up our sons and educate them in this faculty. We can appeal also to other institutions for this training. Let us start preparing now, because next year Fort Hare may say they are not ready. We are pleased that land has been set aside for the tea project and that this project is bringing in such high revenue. If there is not sufficient land we can appeal to people to offer more land so that the scheme can be expanded. We hope this department will also undertake other projects which will bring in more and more revenue. We are happy there are young men with suitable qualifications who have been placed in high and responsible positions. We would be pleased if they would stick fast to those positions I feel we should revolutionize our agricultural methods. The days of the trek ox are past. It is a pity that funds do not allow, otherwise I would suggest that we should mechanize our agriculture as they are doing in the Free State, because that would assist anybody interested in raising enough crops. They may produce more than enough for their own use and sell the surplus. That is only possible with the use of tractors so that we can plough for all the people interested in ploughing. I have said all I wish to say, Mr Chairman, thank you. MR N JAFTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I was requesting the hon Minister to provide these employees with protective headgear which will protect them when pruning the trees. Sometimes these small branches come down with force and injure the employees. There are vast forests at Umzimkulu where the revenue can be very high.
receive priority and seeing that we are in committee I would ask the hon the Minister of Justice to move that we waive the rules. M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, in view of the fact that we had already started with the policy speech by the hon the Minister of Agriculture, and in view of the fact that there is an agreement that there shall be three speakers on each side and therefore that gives us sufficient time to deal with that motion after the Vote of the Department ofAgriculture has been completed, I think we should carry on. MR N JAFTA : Mr Chairman and hon members, I rise to speak to the address by the hon the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry. This department is an extremely important one and a very wide one too, because it includes agriculture, forestry, stock management, veterinary services, irrigation and all these activities are in the hands of that same Minister. Today he has started with the forestry section of his department and he has started by analysing a most important branch of his department. The work of this branch is most commendable and the revenue which accrues from forestry is quite considerable. In the Transkei everyone is aware of the progress being achieved by the Department of Forestry. Progress in this section is more noticeable than in any other section. As far as I am personally concerned, agriculture is the most important of any of the activities, particularly here in the Transkei . Be that as it may, we learn that the Transkei has one of the lowest yields. Our own homes cannot be self-supporting. We commend the progress of these forest activities therefore. I will mention a few things which I noticed as far as the forestry aspect of this policy speech is concerned . Our forests are all on the mountainsides and that is a suitable situation because these are cool moist areas. The people working there are not exposed to the heat. People are protected because they work in sheltered places which are more or less dark even during the daytime. Some of these trees have the peculiarity of the bottom leaves dying,, and this is due to lack of sunshine. These people who work in the forests are inclined to suffer from chest troubles such as TB because they are always working in dark places away from the sunshine. For this reason they should receive the special attention of the department. They also have to prune the trees and when they prune the branches they look up. As they look up their eyes may be injured by falling twigs and sometimes people are actually blinded as a result of these falling twigs. The department should provide some form of protection against this danger. Injury may also be caused by large branches falling onto the employees as they saw them off and the department should therefore provide protective headgear. Our forestry branch is the most lucrative in the Transkei and the wages should be made more attractive. Sometimes these labourers are working in forests near the Republican forestry areas and they hear that those workers in the Republic are better paid. They are therefore attracted to the Republican side . We are sometimes short of labourers because of our low wages, and the department even employs females .
D /CHAIRMAN : Just a minute, please. There is too much murmuring in this House. I appeal to members to respect the dignity of the House. MR JAFTA: In these vast forests the revenue can be very high, but they have not sufficient workers to achieve their aims. They work almost side by side with the forest workers in the Republic and they are attracted to the Republican side of the boundary because of the attractive wages on the other side of the border. The workers on the other side have people to cook for them and our people feel that the conditions on the other side of the border are better than conditions on their own side. The department should pay special attention to this because this is a paying branch of the department. Let us pass on now to agriculture. Our methods are a disgrace and we cannot even produce enough food to feed our own families. I note from the policy speech that the hon Minister's intention is to divide the Transkei into five regions because he feels that with this scheme there will be an improvement in production. On account of the attractive wages in the Republic our young men are not interested in the land and in agriculture. They prefer to go out to the labour centres, work there, remit money to their families to buy enough food, and they neglect the land. That is one of the reasons why our productivity in agriculture is becoming lower and lower. MR Z W LUFEFENI : On point of order, Mr Chairman, these fans are blowing cold air on us. MR JAFTA : We are pleased that some young men are being sent for training but that is not going to change the position to any degree . The only thing that will bring about improvement is to arouse interest in our young men so that they themselves will be interested in working the land. If that interest is not aroused there can be no progress. MR LUFEFENI : Mr Chairman, on a point of order ... D/CHAIRMAN : If the hon member is calling for a point of order in respect of the ventilator here I am not going to allow that. You can go to the proper channels for that. That is no point of order. MR JAFTA: We would like to know exactly how you market the tea grown at Magwa. We would like to know the name under which it is sold so that we can buy it in the shops. All you tell us is that this tea is blended with other teas and marketed, but we are interested to know more. That is all I have to say in this respect, Mr Chairman, and I support the policy speech. MR BP VAPI: Mr Chairman and hon members, I support the policy speech by the hon the Minister of Agriculture. I support it because I am, compelled to do so. Though I agree with most of the things in that speech, yet there is a little matter on which I do not quite agree with the hon Minister. There is something which worries me, and that is that it is said cattle cannot be introduced into the Transkei
CHAIRMAN : Hon members, I implore the House to please attend to any speaker who is on the floor. It is unfortunate that the transgressors of this discipline are mostly the front-benchers and also people who are further off in one of those corners. I implore you to behave and to attend to the speakers. I now call upon the next speaker. MR Z E BOOI : Mr Chairman and hon members, I also rise to associate myself with the remarks of the last speaker. I was very pleased that the hon Minister stressed the work of the forestry sub-branch, showing the potential revenue which can be acquired from this department as we are on the eve of independence. He has told us that the potential revenue from forestry can amount to millions of rands which shows that land allocated to forestry is no wastage. We now complain of the stock thieves who hide in the fastnesses of our land. When we drive these people away we should plant trees there and so increase our revenue. Although forestry does not yield a quick turnover if we increase the land under timber we shall be increasing revenue for the future. Forests are a treasure to us and we should look after them carefully. The hon Minister mentioned a consortium which is to establish a timber industry in the Transkei, but I feel we should alter the management of this project. I am rather disappointed in this matter because I think we have people as qualified as those to whom we are granting these rights. If these people can derive revenue from our forests, why not allow our people to do so ? Although we accept the position, let us educate our children so that they can rise and emulate those people. I see there are many different types of trained personnel required for 286.
a difficult row to hoe when he has to convince the peasant farmer of the need for change in agricultural matters when that peasant farmer owes his loyalty to a chief who is not committed to change in agricultural methods . (Interjections) The hon members in the kitchen of this House have raised a hue and cry over this observation. (Laughter) I think it is time that we faced the truth in this matter. You cannot have improved agriculture in the Transkei so long as the present system of land tenure is occupational and the word of the chief is almost final on land allocation, and I do believe that this House may well continue to criticize the Department of Agriculture and fail to realise where the handicap really lies. MR Ż W LUFEFENI : On a point of order, Mr Chairman ... D/CHAIRMAN: Let us hear the point of order. MR GUZANA: He has no point of order. MR LUFEFENI : I want to ask the hon member ... MR GUZANA: I am not accepting any questions. Sit down. (Laughter) Sir, I see that you have divided up the Transkei into five regions and these are agricultural regions. May I know, Sir, what were the bases for these divisions ? Did you consider the climatic conditions as they vary from one region to another region ? Is it the chemical soil content which has determined the boundaries of these regions ? Is it the variation in crop potential which has resulted in the division of these various areas? These are some of the things I feel should be made known to us so that your programme flowing from this division is put to the people and justified in the eyes of the people because there has been a scientific basis for this division. Sir, we have had 13 years of partial self-rule and in your policy speech you have made reference to the need for technical personnel to man some of these posts which require specialized training. Looking at the Public Service Commission's Report for the year 1975 I find that you only have four tracers, two learner engineering technicians, one professional officer (Marketing), two drillers, five irrigation assistants, four forestry guards and I think I must mention this two gatekeepers. I get the impression that if we have to wait until we have got these technicians, nothing will be done as nothing has been done over the last 13 years. M/AGRICULTURE : You can't say nothing has been done. MR GUZANA: By comparison, I mean. (Interjections) And I have never tasted that tea. M/AGRICULTURE : It is in your usual tea. It is blended in. MR GUZANA: Let us accept the situation that we have not the technical staff, we haven't anybody trained, so what? Let us go to Israel and learn how to use the soil. Let us go to Taiwan and learn how to use the soil. This is the only way we can learn. (Interjections) The hon the Minister of Justice and Foreign Affairs has just let me look at this journal "To the Point" . It says : "In Taiwan one valuable lesson to be learnt from the Taiwanese is their skill and determination in using the soil to the greatest advantage. Limitations on the land forced them to exploit every acre they can for agricultural production." We are given an example of how the Taiwanese people will use every piece of land. If they have any maize or rice to thrash they put it on the one half of the street and let the traffic pass over it to thrash it because there is no square inch of land over which they can thrash. M/AGRICULTURE : That is unhygienic. MR GUZANA: Have they died since they have been doing that? (Laughter) I am merely trying to emphasize the need for using the untrained person to produce more. There are no pavements there . Every square foot is producing food, and if you don't know about this then use some of your entertainment allowance and invite the hon the Minister of Justice to tea and let him tell you about what is happening there. (Laughter) MR D B MXUTU : Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to support the policy speech of the hon the Minister of Agriculture. His efforts in improving forestry and agricultural activities are to be commended and we stress the agricultural aspect of the speech. However, before I do so let me point out that we have suffered great stock losses. Redwater fever has played havoc with our cattle. The figure given was as high as R30 million worth of stock. Is it not possible to inoculate these cattle against this disease as a preventative measure ? Mr Chairman, as we all know, we are on the threshold of independence and agriculture will be the backbone of our economy because the soil is our salvation. If we want to embark upon extensive ploughing and extensive agriculture in the Transkei we will have to
because the Transkei is overstocked . Questions have been asked in this House, particularly by the hon Mr Madikizela, who put a question as to how many cattle have died . These are the figures which have been furnished by the hon minister. He states that Bizana is overstocked by about 6 000 cattle. This shows that the stock we want introduced cannot be introduced as these numbers reveal that that particular district is overstocked , and yet that is not the correct position. All hon members have got the minutes of the House and they can look at the minutes to see that Bizana is said to be overstocked and yet it is understocked by about 3 000. I wish the hon Minister would see that this matter is put right. There are a lot of pedigree stock which have not been allowed entry into the Transkei on account of the incorrect figures which have been given. I am sure the hon Minister has been furnished with these figures by the Secretary. I will put my question to the Secretary and ask how he arrived at these figures. When this question was put it was put with a purpose. How can we trust these white people when they cannot tell us the truth ? I have a question which I desire to place: When last was our stock counted? You will find that the correct position is that before the stock is counted a period of five years expires, but they will just tell us our country is overstocked . What is reflected in those minutes is nothing else but nonsense. If he disputes what I am now stating I would ask him to take those minutes and work out the arithmetic. The hon Minister should then come and talk things over with me and he must come out with the truth. I want to address myself to the Minister now and tell him that our pedigree stock is outside the Transkei, whereas there are scrub animals in the Transkei which could be disposed of. Other matters I wish to touch upon are land, stock and forests. Those three items are of great importance and for that reason this department is of importance. As we are nearing our independence during the course of this year, we believe that if these matters are well attended to and their productivity is improved then we can safely say we are ready for independence. The Republican Government did not make a mistake when it said the people of the Transkei can make a good living out of the stock and other produce of their land. They have brought about this depression because they do not like to see a black man succeeding in life and these white people of the Republic only desire that the black people should seek work on the mines. I take absolutely no interest in the white seconded officials. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, I think the hon member should withdraw that. He must not take the liberty of insulting the officials in this House. D/CHAIRMAN : Will the hon member withdraw. MR VAPI : Mr Chairman, I withdraw. I want to state that as we are expecting independence during the course of this year, what I desire is that we should be fit for such an eventuality. We cannot at the eleventh hour raise the Transkei to a high standard. It is time for us to begin now. As we have got arable allotments in the administration areas the Republican Government has never at any time told us that we should plough and till our land right through the year. We should desist from the habit of leaving our lands fallow. Neither were the Transkeians informed or induced to have their lands fenced. Why was that knowledge withheld from the Transkeian people and the Government never took any action to fence the lands ? The white farmer ploughs his land throughout the year. I say the agricultural field officers have failed to do their duty. What they do is to go up and down the administrative areas imbibing a lot of liquor, and they are negligent of their duty. If these matters which I have touched upon are not considered seriously no progress whatsoever will be achieved by the citizens of the Transkei. I am very sorry I cannot say anything about the seconded officials. MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman and hon members, I sometimes feel very sorry for the hon the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry, largely because he is the victim of a situation which is a heritage which handicaps the development of our agricultural and pastoral potential . For the extension of his programme of afforestation he has either to appropriate or excise land , or go begging on his knees to regional authorities in order to obtain sufficient hectares over which he can plant trees. There are also inherited or, shall I say, traditional attitudes which die hard in relation to the use of land and the type of stock we keep in the Transkei, and I think his Act relating to agriculture and forestry has ham -strung him in various ways, to a degree which makes it sometimes very difficult for him to accommodate such hon members as the hon members for Port St John's, who feels sore about stock generally. It is for him
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that the hon member for Qumbu is aware that we rely more than anything else on agriculture in the Transkei . I wonder if all the people of the Transkei who use the land are aware of the potential of the country ? The country by itself is very fertile indeed, but on account of the fact that the lands have been used for over a hundred years without adding anything to it, but growing the same crop over and over for years, the people expect in spite of all that to reap big crops of maize from their sick lands. We often see the European farmers in neighbouring provinces producing large yields of grain, whether it be mealies or sorghum or even potatoes. They generally rotate their farming practices but they use the land by growing different crops. Yes, I am aware of the fact that hon members will say that European farmers have large tracts of land where they can practice this system of farming, but just a minute ago we were told the way the Taiwanese farmer use their lands. Even the farmers of Israel, we are told, are able to produce big crops from small portions of land, therefore there is absolutely no reason why we in the Transkei should not produce sufficient food for our families. The hon members for Qumbu remarked that our farmers are not even capable of producing enough food for their own households. Well, I do believe that the hon member for Engcobo struck the nail on the head when he said we must go back and tell our people how to use the land properly. The member for Qumbu complained that the people in the forests had developed chest troubles on account of working in the shade, and he also said they were attracted by wages paid in the Republic which are better than those paid in the Transkei. Personally, Mr Chairman, I am not so sure that the wages in the Republic are better than those paid in the Transkei. What I know is that the Government of the Transkei is doing its best to improve the working conditions of the labourers in the Transkei. He also complained that the people are affected by sawdust when rhey prune the trees and some of the branches fall on their heads and cause lacerations. Well, I have to tell the hon member that the department is providing protective clothing and hats. Mr Chairman, the hon member for Lady Frere, Mr Booi, complained about the exploitation of the forests which is being granted to other people and he said our people were also qualified to perform these duties. The department has given the exploitation of some of these forests to companies, as far as I know, who are able to finance these projects on their own, and they also provide employment for our people. The hon member for Qumbu also wanted to know the name of the tea which is grown in the Transkei. Mr Chairman, I don't think it is fair for me to describe the tea we grow in the Transkei and grade it with my own mouth, because I don't want to tell the hon members that some of these firms who buy the tea buy it in lower grades and to improve the quality of the tea, therefore, it is necessary to blend it with other grades which are grown in more suitable climates. Mr Chairman, I did not want to talk about this subject but I was drawn into it by the members.
observe the following: To provide a comfortable home for our citizens ; to build the economy of the Transkei ; to demonstrate to the world that the African is intelligent, responsible and capable of good work ; to make the Transkei economically viable, we have to improve our agriculture, our people will have to be taught to love the soil and respect it because we originate from the soil. They must be made to realise that our food comes from the soil, that the soil therefore feeds us and it must be properly nursed. Spending should therefore be discouraged if our soil has to provide us with food. To achieve this end each member of the House should go out and teach the people how to use the soil properly and help the poor agricultural demonstrator. Without our help they cannot do anything. We have got to move hand in hand with them and educate our people into the proper use of the soil . God has been kind in giving us good rains this year, although we did not plough effectively, but we have long and good grass. Winter is already approaching and people must be discouraged from burning the grass. The Department of Agriculture should issue a directive to all rational and tribal authorities. We don't want to see what happened in Eastern Pondoland repeated when it was ravaged by fire because of the long grass. Winter is approaching and I know some young boys and some careless men are going to burn the veld, and then what will happen ? Good rains might follow but it might be a drought. We must try to help the Department of Agriculture ourselves. Let us do the spadework ourselves first. Before we point a finger at the Department of Agriculture, let us ask ourselves what we have done to improve the soil. Let us therefore go home and plough the land and become agriculturalists. Today a fowl is expensive. It costs about R3. We buy frozen chicken from these cafes for R3. Even the poorest person can rear poultry and we should be able to sell these fowls in order to educate our children, especially those people who have no means. I do not want to talk about pigs. (Laughter) They are like gold these days they are so expensive, but some boys visit the homes of people who rear pigs and loot them, and yet we could sell them at a very high price. Cattle are unbuyable these days because they fetch such high prices. It is easy to rear a pig because within a space of six months you have about seven piglets and you can sell them at a high price. People must be encouraged to rear them because sheep are also very expensive. Meat costs more than it used to, so we can help by rearing more poultry. D/CHAIRMAN : Hon members, I feel very strongly that Vote 5 has been sufficiently covered and if I allow further speakers on this Vote I am merely calling for nothing else but repetition. I therefore call upon the hon Minister to reply. M/AGRICULTURE : Mr Chairman and hon members, first of all I must thank the hon members who contributed to the debate on this Vote. I am happy to notice that hon members are aware of the terrible state of our agriculture in the Transkei. It is true that the Department of Agriculture has been in existence since the inception of self-government in the Transkei and the purpose of the department was to assist the farmers to use their arable lands properly so that they could reap sufficient food from their lands. To that end the department provides trained agricultural officers and places these at the disposal of the farmers, but we often hear that the service of these young men are not required by the ordinary farmers. It is not unusual for farmers in the districts to tell these young men;
MR K M GUZANA : We want the tea. M/AGRICULTURE : Yes, if we were sure our tea is of the best grade. MR GUZANA: We don't care about that. You can even blend it and call it by our own name. M/AGRICULTURE : Mr Chairman, there was a question about the creation of regions. The reason was so that it will be easy for the agricultural officer to communicate with his staff very easily. At the present moment it is merely divided according to the regions of the Transkei. MR GUZANA: No, you put Umzimkulu with Flafgstaff M/AGRICULTURE : It is necessary, of course, that there will be a survey to find out what the potential of the regions is so that in those regions we can grow suitable crops which will be productive enough. For instance, in the Maluti region it is possible to grow wheat extensively . MEMBER : What about tea? M/AGRICULTURE : No, not in the mountain regions, It will be grown in the coastal regions. However, we are hampered by the land tenure system because the land is held communally and the Government is just able to say: We want this grazing camp to grow an extensive crop of maize intensively. It is only when the people are willing to give land so that these crops can be grown on a large scale that we will be successful. Mr Chairman, I must comment on the remarks made by the hon member for Port St John's. He complained that they were not given permits to introduce stock into the Transkei . I want to tell this House that last year on 25 September we held a meeting with all the agricultural officers in the Transkei where the agricultural officers were told to allow the stock
Look, I have been at this job long before you were born, my son. These young men try to teach the old men how to use fertilizers and proper seed and the farmer tells him he has his own seed . The Government is always very keen that every citizen of the Transkei is awarded an arable land and when that is done these arable allotments are not used properly. They merely scratch the surface of the soil and Sow their seed, and more often than not they hardly ever cultivate their lands and yet they expect to reap bumper crops from that very same land . The hon the Leader of the Opposition has just been saying how energetic the people of Taiwan are. I am fully aware that those people do put every bit of energy they have into the use of the land, and how I wish our people could emulate those people in those far-off countries. They have the strength and they have the energy, but I do not want to say they are very loth to use it to their personal benefit . It is well known that our people are very hardworking when they work for other people like the farmers of the Republic, but when they are called upon to do their own farming practices they give the job to their children. Naturally we can never reap any good results from such farming practices. I am very pleased
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Umzimkulu is a non-contentious one. The matter may be put further into perspective as follows :- The elevation of the sub-chief to the status of fully-fledged chieftainship merely involved a change in terminology and there is nothing else involved. It is necessary, however, that before this terminology can be valid the decision of the Legislative Assembly be sought in accordance with the provisions of the Transkei Constitution Act . His elevation does not affect the areas over which he was designated as sub-chief. You can see from his demeanour this evening that this position will befit him . I move that this Assembly should recommend the decision of the Regional Authority of Umzimkulu to the effect that the sub-chief be elevated to the status of a fully-fledged chief. I move accordingly. M/AGRICULTURE : I second, Mr Chairman. MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman and hon members, I wish to support this motion from Umzimkulu elevating this sub-chief to the position of chief. I have just one complaint and that is that he did not give us something in order that our mouths should be open, so that we should speak well. (Laughter) This hon chief knows the custom that a man will go to the stock kraal and take his seat until such time as he has completed all the formalities to open his mouth and make his request. Now he has come to ask me to give him the required promotion. May I say, Mr Chairman, that this hon member has been in most of the government institutions in the Transkei for a long time. MR H PAMLA: Since 1942. MR GUZANA: I am surprised that nothing had been done in this regard before now. This elevation, I feel, is long overdue and one wonders whether this Government will not consider making this elevation retrospective by some years (Laughter )in order that he should derive some monetary benefit from this. However, I must make this known that I hold no truck with the increase in the number of chiefs in the Transkei. (Laughter) I would see them grow if only they remained as tribal heads of their authorities. M/JUSTICE: And Guzana also included. MR GUZANA : .... and remained the titular heads of tribes and not be involved politically. One can see some strategy in this elevation in order to keep this hon member in the House in the post-independence era. (Laughter) However, we will let you through the kitchen door. I support the motion , Mr Chairman.
farmers of the Transkei to introduce stock before we get our independence next year, so that no-one can complain he has not got an ox to plough his land and no-one can complain he has not got a cow to give him milk . We are aware that most of the plot holders cannot use tractors on the hillsides. These are the people who need oxen or cattle to plough their lands. I want to inform hon members that the department is very sympathetic about the needs of the stock farmer to improve his stock because we even provide bloodstock for their herds. I think I have said enough, Mr Chairman, and I move that Vote 5 be adopted. M/JUSTICE: I second. The sum of R19 871 000 in respect of Vote 5, Department of Agriculture and Forestry was passed to stand part of the Schedule. Schedule passed to stand part of the bill. Clause 1 to 4 of the bill put and agreed to. Long title and whole bill put and agreed to. House Resumed.
D/CHAIRMAN : Mr Chairman, I wish to report that the Transkeian Appropriation Bill 1976 has been passed by this committee of supply without amendment. APPROPRIATION BILL : THIRD READING CHAIRMAN : Will the hon the Minister of Finance indicate as to the third reading of this bill. M/FINANCE : Mr Chairman, I move that the Appropriation Bill be now read a third time. MR K M GUZANA : No, you must waive the rules. M/FINANCE : There are no rules in that respect. MR GUZANA: It is not on the order paper. M/FINANCE : It is immaterial. It can be done any time. Mr Chairman, I move that the rules of the House be waived so that the bill can be completed now and I move that the bill be read a third time. M/AGRICULTURE :
I second.
Agreed to. The bill was read a third time. CREATION OF NEW CHIEFTAINSHIP : UMZIMKULU DISTRICT
Motion put and agreed to unanimously. LIQUOR AMENDMENT BILL: COMMITTEE STAGE
CHAIRMAN : Hon members, there was an indication that a motion in respect of the creation of a new chieftainship in Umzimkulu district should take priority over the other items. Unfortunately the motion was not shown on the order paper of today. I will therefore ask the hon the Chief Minister or his deputy to move the waiving of the rules, please. M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, I move that this House waives its rules in order to allow the motion on the elevation of Sub-chief Petros Jozana to the status of fully-fledged chief to be dealt with now. M/AGRICULTURE : I second, Mr Chairman.
M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I move that this House converts itself into committee in order to consider the amendment to the Liquor Act of 1967. M/EDUCATION : I second.
Agreed to. House in Committee.
Clause 1 to 3 put and agreed to.
Agreed to. M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I move- : "(1) That whereas the Umzimkulu Regional Authority has, in terms of sub-section (1 ) of section 45 of the Transkei Constitution Act No. 48 of 1963 resolved that sub-chief Petros Jozana be elevated to the status of fully fledged chief; (2) And whereas this resolution entails the creation of new chieftainship in the Transkei ; (3) Now, therefore, in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should in terms of sub-section (2) of section 45 of Act No. 48 of 1963 consider the advisability of: (a) abolishing the existing sub-chieftainship in respect of the Baca tribe resident within the area of the Silahla Tribal Authority in the district of Umzımkulu ; (b) creating a new chieftainship in Umzimkulu district in respect of the Baca tribe resident within the area of the Silahla Tribal Authority; and (c) recommending that the State President should confirm the designation of Petros Jozana as chief of the said area with effect from the date on which he assumes duty as chief." Mr Chairman, the subject of this motion - that is, the elevation of Sub-chief Petros Jozana in the district of
On Clause 4. CHIEF G M MABANDLA : We want motivation, please. M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman , this clause is consequential to the repeal of liquor laws in areas incorporated into the Transkei - that is, Glen Grey and Herschel. I move the adoption.
Clause 4 put and agreed to. Clause 5 to 12 inclusive put and agreed to.
On Clause 13. CHIEF G M MABANDLA: What does this clause mean ? Please motivate (a). M/JUSTICE: This is consequential on the government policy to abolish discrimination based on race.
Clause 13 put and agreed to. Clause 14 to 30 inclusive put and agreed to. Long title put and agreed to. House Resumed.
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certain Mr Hertzog from the Republic or from Germany becomes a Transkeian citizen in terms of section 58, then after staying in one district of the Transkei he qualifies to be a Transkeian and to be a member of the Assembly. In the sixth year he is a Transkeian or qualifies to be a member, and this House may elect him to be President of the Republic of Transkei. I am worried about this period of five years. It may happen that I did not understand the implication of this clause and therefore I request to be enlightened on this. CHIEF MINISTER What worries you, hon member ? MR LUDIDI : We feel it is too short a period for a man to be in the Transkei for five years and then in the sixth year he may be elected President of Transkei. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, in terms of convention the Judge President of Transkei will be the acting President and will be in a position to sign this Act and make it an Act of Parliament. Immediately after passing the Act somebody must be acting President and will have to sign. As a matter of fact, the House could decide that in terms of convention he should do so. Is there anything irregular in that? MR NOTA:. I am really not happy on this point, Mr Chairman. You see, according to this draft there are about 75 elected members. They will contest elections and constitute this National Assembly in terms of this draft which is no law. All that is being done under a draft which is no law. Now, I want to know in terms of which Act all that will be done. CHIEF MINISTER : I think you want to dictate to the House your own law. I will reply to you tomorrow. I move the adjournment of the House, Mr Chairman.
D/CHAIRMAN : Mr Chairman, I wish to report that the Transkei Liquor Amendment Bill was passed by the committee without any amendment . LIQUOR AMENDMENT BILL : THIRD READING
M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I move that this House waives the rules in order to enable the third reading of this bill to take place now. M/EDUCATION : I second him, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. The bill was read a third time. ROAD TRAFFIC AMENDMENT BILL: THIRD READING M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman and hon members, on behalf of the hon the Minister of Roads and Works I move that the Transkei Road Traffic Amendment Bill 1976 be read a third time. M/EDUCATION : I second him, Mr Chairman. The bill was read a third time. DISCUSSION ON DRAFT CONSTITUTION CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, I see the members of the recess committee do not want to come to this side. In terms of our resolution the time of the adjournment is 11 o'clock. When the debate ended on this draft Constitution we were on section 3. Mr Chairman, we cannot lose a single minute. This section is quite clear. It only deals with the election of the President. CHAIRMAN : I request the recess committee members to cross to the government side.
The discussion was adjorned.
The Assembly adjourned until 11 am on Thursday, 13 May 1976.
On Clause 3
THURSDAY, 13 MAY 1976
The discussion was resumed.
Prayers were read.
CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, may I proceed. I was saying this section deals with the manner in which the President will be elected. He will be elected by an electoral college consisting of the National Assembly under the chairmanship of the Chief Justice or another judge acting in place of the Chief Justice. The meeting in relation to the first President will be held on the date of the commencement of this Act. In other words, when this Act is approved by the National Assembly that will be the date on which the President will be elected . Ofcourse, there shall have been a date fixed by notice in the Government Gazette and this notice will be published not earlier than three months before the fixed date. Now, Mr Chairman, no person will be elected President unless he is 30 years of age or more, unless he has resided in the area forming part of the Transkei for a period of five years and is qualified to be a member of the National Assembly. In other words, the President may not be a member of the Assembly but if he is qualified to be elected as a member or to be nominated amongst the chiefs in an electoral college of chiefs then he may be elected President. The President shall vacate every office that he occupies in respect of which he receives any remuneration or allowance from public funds, but if he be a paramount chief or chief he will retain his title although he will not perform the duties of a paramount chief or a chief. He will merely retain his title . I move the adoption. M/HEALTH : I second . MR K G NOTA: Mr Chairman, in subsection 3(1 ) it is mentioned that the National Assembly shall elect the President. I assume that the President elected by the National Assembly will be the person who shall sign this draft and make it an Act. In other words, Mr Chairman, this National Assembly, so far as I am concerned, will not be legally constituted under any law. In other words, the very sitting of the National Assembly will be illegal and the election of the President as well, because the National Assembly is constituted under this draft which will not be an Act at that time. This draft will be an Act after it has been signed by the President who will be elected by the National Assembly in terms of this draft. I want an explanation from the members of the recess committee, please. MR M P LUDIDI : Mr Chairman, I assume that a Transkeian will be qualified to be a member of the National Assembly in terms of section 58 ( 1 ) . Now, supposing a
MINUTES
M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, I don't know whether I am the only one who has these minutes . In the first place we have Tuesday, 11 May. Well, yesterday was Wednesday and, secondly, the order paper is all wrong. For instance, item 8 is the committee stage of the Appropriation Bill which we have dealt with. We have dealt with the committee stage of the Liquor Amendment Bill and the third reading of the Road Traffic Amendment Bill, so I don't know what is happening to these minutes. CHAIRMAN : Hon members, it was indicated yesterday that the minutes would be in two sections. The first section is from 11 am to 5 pm, and then there is the evening session. The printers of the order paper can only deal with the morning session separately from the evening session. Now I take it that the following minutes will deal with this pertinently. M/JUSTICE : What about your order paper for today which contains items which have been disposed of? And where is the order paper for today ? This is headed Thursday, 13 May, and it contains items which have been disposed of already. CHAIRMAN: The committee stages and the third reading were dealt with during the evening session. CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, I think we should not worry about this. The Chairman will direct the House that these items have been disposed of and then carry on with the next item . MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman, may I request some clarification from the Chair. If my memory serves me correctly we began having evening sessions on Tuesday, and Wednesday's minutes which were put before this House covered the deliberations of this House up to and until about 5 pm and when the House on Wednesday asked for minutes covering its deliberations up till 11 pm on Tuesday the Chairman indicated that these would appear in the subsequent minutes for Wednesday, but relating to Tuesday evening's sitting. Now, I do not see a record of the deliberations of the evening session on Tuesday. MEMBER : Look on page 297. The minutes were taken as read and confirmed.
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ANNOUNCEMENTS
Authority in the district of Ngqeleni and that Headman Mhlabunzima Abner Ntapane be designated as acting chief until Pondolwendlovu Zanembeko Ndamase, the second son of Paramount Chief Tutor Ndamase who is furthering his studies at the University of Fort Hare is ready to take over the chieftainship ;
CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon members, it does not appear that the House will be prorogued tomorrow. I think we shall definitely rise on Monday next week. Because we have to adjourn at 4 o'clock tomorrow afternoon I would move that the House sits at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning and on any subsequent day at 9 o'clock in the morning. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman, whilst I feel assured that the hon the Chief Minister has become aware of the impossibility of crowding the outstanding business into the time between now and tomorrow, the sitting on Monday will only add to our time for deliberations at the most about 8 or 9 hours and to my mind it would appear that in view of the importance of the constitutional discussions we shall not, even with that extended period, be able to do justice to the Constitution. My suggestion is, therefore, that if we do prorogue parliament on Monday this House has to be recalled for a week some time in June to deal with this Constitution. I think this House will be exposed to adverse criticism if we should seek to perform in a short time an Act which requires the utmost concentration and the most responsible application of the mind to the clauses. CHIEF MINISTER: You are wasting time now. MR GUZANA: The stigma of muzzling criticism may well attach to this Constitution for all time if we are not prepared to make a sacrifice at a later date in order to come here and discuss it fully. CHAIRMAN : Is there any seconder to the motion ofthe Chief Minister? M/INTERIOR: I second, Mr Chairman.
Agreed to. MR GUZANA : There is no “Agreed”, Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN : As it has been pointed out, it is shown on the order paper that we are going to deal with various items which have already been disposed of. Further, two items have inadvertently been omitted from the order paper. Notice was given yesterday on behalf of the hon the Minister of Finance of the first reading of two bills, namely the Exchequer and Audit Bill and the General Loans Bill, so on the order paper we shall delete those matters we dealt with yesterday evening and shall put in these two first readings of bills.
NOTICES OF BILLS M/FINANCE: Mr Chairman and hon members, 1 beg to give notice that on Friday, 14 May, I propose to move the first reading of a bill to provide for the establishment of a development corporation and other corporations, to prescribe their objects and powers, to make provision for their financing, control and management and to provide for other incidental matters. M/EDUCATION: Mr Chairman and hon members, I beg to give notice that on 14 May 1976 I propose to move the first reading of a bill to amend the Transkei Education Act 1966. NOTICE OF MOTION 68. The Hon. the Chief Minister gave notice to move: "1. That whereas the Nyanda Regional Authority has, in terms of sub-section (1) of section 45 of the Transkei Constitution Act No. 48 of 1963 resolved that new chieftainship be created in respect of the Pondo tribe resident in the area of the Ngqubusini Tribal
2. And whereas this resolution entails the creation of new chieftainship in the Transkei; 3. Now, therefore, in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should in terms of subsection (2) of section 45 of Act No. 48 of 1963 consider the advisability of recommending that the State President should confirm : (a) the creation of new chieftainship in the Ngqeleni district in respect of the Pondo tribe resident within the area of the Ngqubusini Tribal Authority; and (b) the designation of Headman Mhlabunzima Abner Ntapane as acting chief of the Pondo tribe resident within the area of jurisdiction of the Ngqubusini Tribal Authority." CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon members, I move that the rules of the House be waived in order that we deal with this motion straight away and pass it. It is straightforward and non-contentious . M/INTERIOR: I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. CREATION OF NEW CHIEFTAINSHIP : NYANDA REGION CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, I move accordingly. (Read motion) There is nothing contentious in this motion. It is straightforward. There have been few appointments of chiefs in Western Pondoland. In Ngqeleni district there have been all along only two chieftainships until a third one was recognized a few years ago. Now, the designation of chiefs has been assigned to the regional authorities and it is in terms of law and custom that when a chief decides that one of his sons should be apportioned a portion ofthe country under his jurisdiction he is at liberty to do so, after discussing the matter with his counsellors. Now, the Government ethnologist in 1971 made this remark about Western Pondoland - that there were at that time two chieftainships in the district and in his own opinion if the Paramount Chief wanted his grandson appointed as chief in the Ngqubusini Tribal Authority area he was at liberty to do so. We are not creating chieftainships of people who never had any claim to royalty. This area consists of about 14 administrative areas. I move, Mr Chairman, that this chieftainship be created and that this House recommends accordingly to the State President. CHIEF D D P NDAMASE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I second the motion by the hon the Chief Minister. Mhlabunzima, who it is stated is going to act, is the grandson ofone Ntapane. Ntapane is the son of Bangani and Bangani is the direct younger brother of Ndamase. They are both the issue of Faku . We Pondos find no difficulty in Mhlabunzima being appointed to act. The Paramount Chief of Western Tembuland has already explained to the House that the subject of this motion, Pondolwendlovu Zanembeko Ndamase, is born of the royal house of the Pondo chiefs. As far as this Ngqeleni district is concerned, it was usual for the Paramount Chief of the Pondos to have his Righthand House stationed in Ngqeleni district. Ndamase placed Nyangiwe in that district and Nyangiwe is the Righthand House of Ndamase. Nqwiliso placed Dumezweni in Ngqeleni district and Dumezweni is of the Righthand House. Bokleni placed Henry in the Ngqeleni district and Henry was the Righthand House of Bokleni. Henry is my father. It 291.
would be strange if we who are of the Righthand House should refuse to have this man placed as head. I have given this genealogical tree because I wanted to enlighten this Assembly on the matter. This son is being accepted in Ngqeleni district as chief.
Motion put and carried unanimously. EXCHEQUER AND AUDIT BILL :
FIRST READING
M/FINANCE : Mr Chairman and hon members, the Minister of Finance having been informed of the subject matter of the bill to provide for the appointment of an Auditor-General for the Transkei and to prescribe his duties and powers and to make provision for incidental matters, has recommended the bill for consideration by the Assembly. I lay upon the table a copy of the Transkei Exchequer and Audit Bill 1976 and move that the bill be read for a first time. M/AGRICULTURE : I second, Mr Chairman.
Agreed to. The bill was read a first time.
M/FINANCE: The second reading will be tomorrow, Mr Chairman. GENERAL LOANS BILL: FIRST READING M/FINANCE : Mr Chairman, the Minister of Finance having been informed of the subject matter of the bill to provide for the raising and redemption of loans by the Government of the Transkei and for matters incidental thereto, has recommended the bill for considertaion by the Assembly. I lay upon the table a copy of the Transkei General Loans Bill 1976 and move that the bill be read a first time. M/EDUCATION : I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. M/FINANCE : Mr Chairman.
The second reading will be tomorrow,
DISCUSSION ON DRAFT CONSTITUTION On Clause 3 The discussion was resumed. CHAIRMAN : Hon members, when the House rose last night there was a question from the hon member for Mount Ayliff and another from the hon member for Matatiele. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, the Status Act which is to be passed by the Republican Government will provide for the passing of the bill which will make this draft bill a law. The Status Act is the Act which will hand over the Transkei to the Transkeian Government. It will be a short bill, so the hon member need not be unduly worried about these matters. These matters are handled by experienced lawyers and there will be no loopholes at all. You need not worry. This Act will become law after being signed by a person designated in the Status Act and it is highly probable that the Speaker of the House will sign this Act. I do not say he will do it, because I have not seen the Status Act. Now, if you turn to section 10 of the draft it says that whenever the office of President becomes vacant or the President is unable to discharge his duties then the Speaker, or otherwise a person appointed by the Executive, shall act as President. It is therefore presumed that the Status Act will give authority to the Speaker to sign, or
can even say it will not be necessary for that law to be signed. The Status Act will be the valid legislation which will give authority to the existence of this Constitution, so economists should not be worried about legal and constitutional matters of this nature. (Laughter) Now, in reply to the hon member for Maluti, he has started being a racialist already and I would appeal to him to forget about the existence of black and white in the Transkei . He should think only of Transkeian citizens. The South Africa Act, which is the model of our Constitution, and probably also the British Constitution provide for citizenship to people after they have been resident in the country for five years. If he is worried about a white man being President and suggest that a longer time is necessary before people can take out citizenship of a country, isn't that giving the stigma of racialism and antiWhiteism ? This Constitution will never talk of black, brown or white people. We refer to Transkeian citizens. In any event, whoever is President will be elected by the National Assembly and these 28 men were not duds when they decided on this issue, so we don't expect a man from the mountains on the border of another country to try and correct constitutional lawyers on this issue. We consulted constitutions from all over the world on these matters and we felt it was fair for anybody who is an alien to apply for citizenship of the Transkei after a period of five years. CHIEF D D MLINDAZWE : Mr Chairman, whilst we are still dealing with the election of President, I have noticed in previous reports that the membership of the National Assembly will be composed of 150 members. I presume, therefore, that even after the election of the President the number will not alter but the membership will remain at 150 membres. CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, this matter has been disposed of. We are dealing with the election of the President now. We have disposed of the matter as to who should take part in the elections and whether members of parliament should do so. It was well canvassed CHIEF MLINDAZWE : I do not know whether I understood correctly. Will there not be a difference in the membership if the President is elected from among the members ? M/HEALTH: Mr Chairman, if a member of the National Assembly is elected as President it automatically follows there will be a vacancy caused by his election in that particular consituency, which will result in a by-election in that constituency. MR K G NOTA : Mr Chairman, it appears to me, Sir, that we are discussing this draft not as a bill but generally. I would like to know from the members of the recess committee when will this thing be tabled as a bill and be discussed in the usual way in which a bill is discussed ? CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, I think it rests on the members to say that it shall not be sufficient for this Act to be merely passed on 26 October and that this House shall be given time before that date, when we have a new parliament, to discuss this as a bill. As it is now, it is a draft bill, not a bill, and we are trying to shorten the proceedings in anticipation that the newcomers to this House will not be able to understand what was going on before they came here. We thought we would go through all the stages in one day, within 15 minutes, on 26 October but we know members like coming up and down to Umtata and the Government might provide a few days to discuss the bill if it is so desired. MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman, may I just supplement this explanation. I would refer hon members to section 31 (3) which says that notwithstanding the provisions of section 74(1 ) , which relates to laws which are going to be repealed, and one of the laws in the Transkei Constitution 292.
Act, No. 48 of 1963, so although that law amongst others will have been repealed this is what will happen (I will just paraphrase it and put it simply) : There will be a Legislative Assembly, and this Legislative Assembly - as expanded numerically by reason of the incorporation of Herschel and Glen Grey Iwill sit, say, on 24 October 1976. That is this Assembly as constituted, because its life shall have been extended by this Status Act which is going to be passed by the Republic of South Africa, meaning that although there shall have been elections, say, in September 1976 those people who are elected do not become members of this Legislative Assembly until after this Act has been passed. The session of 24 October shall have power to make this bill a law immediately, and after that the Assembly newly constituted in terms of the Act (passed by the Legislative Assembly constituted as at today's date) takes over and becomes the first Legislative Assembly of the Transkei, so that the life of this Assembly, even if you are not elected in September, shall continue and you will continue to be a member until you have discharged your duties, say, on 24 October. If you have not been elected to the new Assembly constituted in terms of this Constitution then you will be kicked out. I hope I have adequately supplemented this explanation. CHAIRMAN : Does the House agree ? MR GUZANA : Just a minute, Mr Chairman, I have some trouble with language here. Section 3(4)(b) says that no person may be elected or continue as President unless he "has resided for five years within an area forming part of Transkei". That is the phrase . The language used to refer to the Transkei before independence is "part of THE Transkei”, but the post-independence language will be "part of Transkei" . Now you see, if we stick to that interpretation then it means the President must have lived for five years continuously after independence in Transkei and it would exclude therefore a person who has been living in THE Transkei. I wonder if we could just include the article "the" there so that a person who has been living in the Transkei for five years or more before independence date qualifies as a candidate for the Presidency? CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, any people who will apply for Transkeian citizenship and resided in the Transkei before it attained independence will have to have five years' residence in the new Transkei. This is the intention of this section and I do not think the recess Committee can change this at all. You should not be worried about people who are not Transkeian citizens. They have five years to decide to apply for Transkeian citizenship. MR GUZANA: I don't think my point has registered correctly, Mr Chairman. I agree that a person who seeks to qualify for citizenship may have to reside in Transkei continuously for five years after independence. At least, that clause can be so interpreted at this stage because we have not got to it yet, but the man who is elected as President should réside in THE Transkei for five years. In other words, if on 26 October we elect a President he should have been living in THE Transkei for five years before independence. As the clause stands now, and the wording now, it means before a person qualifies for election to the Presidency he will have to have lived in Transkei for five years that is, after independence so that there will not be anybody qualified for election. That is my point. CHIEF MINISTER : I concede that, Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN: In view of the explanation by the hon Mr Guzana that there be the inclusion of "the" in that subsection, the hon the Chief Minister supports the idea.
followed at a meeting held under section 3(1 ) , including rules prescribing the form in which the nomination of candidates for election as President shall be made and rules prescribing the manner in which any ballot shall be conducted. (2) Until the Speaker makes rules in terms of subsection (1), the procedure to be followed at a meeting under section 3(1 ) shall be as follows:(a) The chairman shall call for the nomination of candidates for election as President. (b) Every such nomination shall be in writing and shall be signed by two members of the National Assembly and also by the person nominated unless he has in some other way signified his willingness to accept nomination or unless he is the person then holding office as President, in which event his nomination shall be by resolution under section 5(2). (c) The chairman shall announce the name of every person duly nominated as candidate for election. (d) If only one candidate has been nominated and such candidate complies with the provisions of section 3(4), the chairman shall declare him to be duly elected as President. (e) If two or more condidates who comply with the provisions of section 3(4) have been nominated, the chairman shall cause a vote to be taken by secret ballot (at which each member of the electoral college shall have one vote) and, if a majority of the votes so cast is in favour of one candidate, shall declare such candidate to be duly elected as President. (f) If no candidate obtains such a majority of votes, the candidate who received the lowest number of votes shall be eliminated and a further ballot taken in relation to the remaining candidates and , subject to the provisions of paragraph ((g), this prodecure shall be repeated as often as may be necessary until one candidate receives a majority of all the votes cast and is declared duly elected : Provided that, iftwo or more candidates receive the same number of votes but less than the remaining candidates, the electoral college shall by separate vote, to be repeated as often as may be necessary, determine which of those candidates shall be eliminated for the purpose of this paragraph. (g) If -(i) Only two candidates who comply with the provisions of section 3(4) have been nominated, or (ii) only two candidates remain after the elimination of one or more candidates under paragraph (f), and there is an equality of votes between such two candidates, a further vote between those two candidates shall be taken on the following day and on each day thereafter until one candidate receivees a majority of all the votes cast and is declared duly elected. (3) No debate shall be allowed at any meeting held under section (31). 1147
Clause 3 as amended put and agreed to. Method of election as President. 4. (1 ) Subject to the provisions of subsection (3), the Speaker may make rules regulating the procedure to be
CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, the method of election of President will just be the same as you find in our Constitution Act here. There will hardly be any change in 293.
the method. I don't think we should waste time on it. If you know how the Chief Minister was elected and so on, this section provides for the nomination of candidates and if there are two candidates then there is voting. If there are three or more then there is also voting, and there will be voting until there are only two candidates finally. Mr Chairman, I don't think this really needs explanation. I move the adoption. M/EDUCATION : I second. MR M P LUDIDI : Mr Chairman, when the Chief Minister is being elected it is usually to elect a member of this House, but as far as the President is concerned anybody, not necessarily a member of this House, is eligible. Even an ordinary civil servant is eligible. Can one canvass in order to be elected as President ? M/HEALTH : Just elaborate on your canvassing. MR LUDIDI : Say a Secretary of a department is interested in becoming President. He then begins canvassing those people he thinks will be members of the National Assembly so that they nominate and vote him in as President of Transkei. He may even go to the extent of causing the requests of all those people he thinks will be voted into the House to be .... CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, this is not the method of election which the hon member is discussing. We must discuss the section -- the method of election. There is no question of canvassing of candidates, the voting prodecure and so on. MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman, I am inclined to the view that this hon member is not altogether out when we look at subsection 4(3), where a debate is precluded at the meeting for the election of the President. May I just assist this hon member, to give him some assurance. In a bi-party system of government the Government party begins right from the Prime Minister, through his Executive down to the party supporters, to sow the seeds and to canvass the people's opinions confidentially, without any noise, as to their views about a particular individual relating to his suitability or otherwise for the post. Whilst you may have a plethora of about six or seven possibilities, this consultation which is confidential may reduce the number to about two or so. Now, walls have ears, and this confidential consultation filters to the Opposition, and later on probably the leader of the House makes approaches to the Opposition leader, to his Shadow Cabinet and to his supporters as to their views. Ultimately the two groups, the two sides converge unanimously on an individual. When his name is proposed there is hardly any split vote. In fact, he is elected unanimously as President should be, and is deemed to be the unifying figure ofthe State irrespective of party affiliations of the citizens of that State. I hope the hon member for Maluti is satisfied . CHIEF N T SIGCAU: Mr Chairman, there is something I would like to know and to be well explained. Most of the people are very curious in so far as this is concerned. Most of the people have been asking me round the country whether the paramount chiefs will retain their kingdom or be promoted to kingship, because so far some people say there is no reason why we have paramount chiefs. We are supposed to be having kings. Now, there is quite a clash of ideas as far as the public are concerned. Some people say a paramount chief should not be called a paramount chiefbut a king, and this clashes with the status of presidents. Some people are suggesting that there is no point in there being a President of Transkei . The kings should be there, acting or doing the same duties which are supposed to be done by the President. When a certain law has been passed by the National Assembly all the kings should be there in order to sign. I shall be very pleased if I can get a reply. MR GUZANA: Mr Chairman, one of the problems of the Transkei is that we have five paramount chiefs. 294.
MR NOTA : There were four kings in England. MR GUZANA : The hon member for Mount Ayliff says there were four kings in England, and as a result of wars amongst the factions supporting each king and claiming supremacy of the one over the other, they eliminated one another until you now have one sovereign. MR H PAMLA: Is this really possible in this Space Age? MR GUZANA: So agreement was reached at the point of the sword. In the Transkei the five paramount chiefs cannot, by reason of their tribal affiliation and by reason of the fact that they enjoy paramountcy over particular tribes, be made .... MR C DIKO : Come on, you are wasting time. MR GUZANA : This hon member should be thrown out of the House. CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR GUZANA: If we were to elevate any one of them to kingship, it would mean in effect we would be derogating from the status of the paramountcy of Nyanda, Dalindyebo, Western Tembuland or any other region. So the position at the present moment is insoluble and they stand in line with the commoner for the post of President, just as in the present Legislative Assembly no paramount chief, chief or sub-chief has precedence over other members of the Assembly. Assuming that a paramount chief is elected President in terms of section 3(5) , he will retain his title as paramount chief and whilst he is President he gets somebody to act for him over his region. Since the Presidency is not a lifetime appointment for anybody, on the expiration of his period of tenure of office he reverts to his paramountcy over his people. I get the impression that the President will enjoy superiority amongst his equals by reason of his position as President, if he is a paramount chief. CHIEF N T SIGCAU : There is something I am not quite clear about. If it happens that we have a President and the President naturally will have to be above the paramount chiefs, the last speaker has not explained it well to me because we, including myself and the people I have met, are not satisfied that there should be a person above the paramount chief, who is supposed to be a king. Definitely, as time goes on, I feel there will be a clash. For instance, a man like Mr Guzana if he becomes President of the Republic of Transkei and he reaches the stage of undermining paramountcy because he claims to be President, now if he is in that position of President because that is possible and that is what has happened in some other countries where people are above and are suppressing the monarchy ..... MR GUZANA: May I answer the question first. The President exercises his prerogatives and his functions in Executive Council. In other words, if there is anything the President has to do he will have to be advised by the Cabinet, and if he has anything to issue which is in writing it will have to be counter-signed by a Minister who is in the Cabinet. Now, this means in effect that no President can depose a paramount chief because before he does that he will have acted on the advice of the Executive, which will not advise him to do so but will advise him against doing so. Point No. 2 : This Constitution seeks to make the President a figurehead. He cannot exercise any executive powers unless and until the Cabinet says he may. The States to which the hon member referred are States where the President has executive powers independent of the Executive Council. He is, in fact, the supreme chief and he acts as he wills without taking into account the feelings of the people. Now your Executive is supposed to be the concentration of your majority conviction politically and administratively, and what the Executive advises the President to do is presumed to be what the majority of the residents or the citizens of that country wish to have happen. CHIEF SIGCAU : Mr Chairman, I don't want to delay this discussion. The hon member has just about answered
AFTERNOON SESSION
my question but he is giving me the duty of the President and the conditions which will apply by then, but in order not to waste time I will sit down. CHIEF MINISTER: Let me reply to your question. Mr Chairman, the paramount chiefs will pay allegiance to the President who is not even a chief but a commoner. They have put him in that position as a person as to unify the nation. This is a no inheritance from the Republican Government where the President is a mere commoner. Our paramount chiefs paid allegiance to this commoner of the Republic of South Africa, but as soon as he is appointed and placed in this position he has got to be respected . The chiefs are respected by their own subjects and that respect will not be taken away. MR Z W LUFEFENI : Mr Chairman, in our terminology of the two words "kumkani” and “ngotya”, the paramount chiefs have been elevated according to the tribes they control. There are five paramount chiefs in the Transkei. Are they "kumkani" or "ngotya"? CHAIRMAN : Hon member, we are dealing here with section 4 which deals with the method of election of President.
The discussion on Clause 4 of the draft Constitution was resumed. CHAIRMAN : Hon members, I implore the members to be pertinent to the subject matter of this section. I will repeat that this section deals with the method of election of the President. MR C DIKO : Mr Chairman, just on a point of privilege, just allow me. Mr Chairman, I want to make a very pertinent request to this House through you, Sir. As a backbencher of this recess committee I can see there is going to be trouble. You see, people were not given enough chance to study this Constitution . Now we are not having enough chance to discuss it, so the hon members are struggling for information, the Government is struggling to save time, so I don't think the expense I am going to suggest will be as big as the expense of doing damage to this Constitution. I can see this thing is meeting difficulties and it is going to be necessary to put in amendments and suggestions, so I would request that the question of the draft Constitution must be shelved and we come back to a special session in July so these people can meet the public and get their views and do justice to the Constitution . Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN: I would like to know the feeling of the Government members of the select committee on this. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, I don't know whether I will be expressing the feeling of the recess committee, but I feel as the leader of this House that we should proceed with this document and we shall adjourn when we feel we should adjourn, then the Government will see what to do next. CHAIRMAN : Hon members, we are still dealing with section 4. Any other comments ? CHIEF SC DALISILE : Mr Chairman , we of the Transkei cannot be suited with following the pattern shown by other countries . We will have to follow the natural course of native custom and follow the lead of our paramount chiefs. CHAIRMAN : I will draw the attention of the hon member on the floor to the fact that this is the method of election of President we are dealing with. That is a different question from who should be elected as President. CHIEF Z DIKO : Mr Chairman, are there any provisions made indicating what qualification a President should have in order to be appointed as such ? CHAIRMAN : I will call upon the next comment on the question of method of election. MR BR JICO : Mr Chairman, I would that you should listen to what I am going to say. What I want to tell the hon paramount chief who is also the Chief Minister of the Transkei is that a count of all the paramount chiefs of the Transkei should be carried out and one of them appointed as President. CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Any member rising to speak on section 4 should do so, knowing we are dealing with the method of election of President. The question of the person of the President is irrelevant. MR Z W LUFEFENI : Mr Chairman, I am dealing with clause 4- Method of Election as President. I want the Chairman whom we elected to listen to me most carefully. (Laughter) The hon member who is a member of the recess committee had moved that this matter be suspended . He was not seconded but he was not opposed. The hon the Chief Minister moved that we should proceed but there was no seconder and there was no-one in opposition. There should be fairness in the administration of the business of this House. MR C DIKO : Mr Chairman, personally I was satisfied when the hon the Chief Minister said he and the Cabinet
MR LUFEFENI : Mr Chairman, I want to know if we are going to elect a “kumkani” or “ngotya" or whether it is a commoner who will be elected . The Transkei will then be a free country and we would like to know what form the election will take in respect of the five paramount chiefs . CHAIRMAN : Don't repeat yourself, hon member. We have heard that question. Any other comment ? CHIEF S C DALISILE : Mr Chairman, there is a point I want clarified . Why should we as Africans emulate the example of the Republic of South Africa in that we elect anyone as President, because it happens that once a commoner is placed in a certain position he becomes so superior that he forgets what he was. CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, we have gone through that matter and we have finished it. That comes under section 1 and 2. We are now talking about the method of election, not who should be elected. MR W M MADIKIZELA : Mr Chairman, there is this confusion because this is an innovation . These paramount chiefs or kings were subject only to God or to Divine Guidance. They are now ... CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr Chairnam, there is nothing in this section about that. We have been through that section and we are only dealing with the method of election and not who should be elected. CHAIRMAN : I will permit a speaker only to speak about the method of election . MR MADIKIZELA : In regard to the method, Mr Chairman , I am not quarrelling with the method of election .. CHAIRMAN: Well, that is what we are dealing with. Address yourself on the method of election only. MR MADIKIZELA : I am leading to that, Mr Chairman. We say it is proper that the National Assembly should elect this particular individual, knowing that this person will not remove anybody from any position, but they choose a person whom they feel they respect. I do not say this person should be this or that but he should be a figure over whom the Assembly will agree. He will be a unifying figure whom we will recognize and say: Here is a symbol of our unity. I think comparing people with each other and saying this one is great and that one is not great gets us nowhere. This House has the power of amending this Constitution. We shall amend the Constitution when we deem it fit, but we should appoint a President. I agree with the idea that we must elect somebody who will be acceptable to the National Assembly. I don't mind from what area or part of the country he comes.
The discussion was adjourned .
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will consider my suggestion and meantime we must continue. So at a later stage they will meet and decide what to do, so he was not irrelevant at all and I wish he and the Cabinet will give serious consideration to my suggestion. CHAIRMAN : It appears there are no further comments relative to this question of method of election of President. Unless the hon member is going to be relevant to this I shall rule him out of order. MR L S BALENI : Mr Chairman, I would like an explanation of subsection 4(2)(b). CHIEF MINISTER : It is similar to when a person seeks to be a candidate in a general election. You get one of the voters to nominate your name and another to second it. Now, this will be done in writing and also the person who is nominated will signify his consent to be nominated in writing, unless he has in some other way signified his willingness to accept nomination .
M/EDUCATION : To me this provision is clear and there is no ambiguity about it. As we know, even in our ordinary associations if the Executive feels that a man who was holding office has done well there is always a provision in such constitutions that he can be re-elected. In other words, this provision is in keeping with what is happening in everyday life concerning our associations . MR H PAMLA: Just a question, Mr Chairman. Does this imply that if the National Assembly decided to retain the services of the President he will be given yet another seven years, making fourteen years? M/EDUCATION : In all probability the National Assembly is capable of interpreting the aspirations of the people, of the electorate, so that if they decide that there should be a further extension of his period of office I suppose as responsible gentlemen they will do it in the best interests of the country. In any case, Mr Chairman, it is most unlikely there would be another period of seven years. Usually a candidate for Presidency is a gentlemen who is advanced in age. I do not think, therefore, we should worry so much about this because it is in keeping with what is happening. MR S P BHURALI : Mr Chairman, I would also like further motivation on this clause. I am not happy. This clause seems to overlie the provisions under subsection 4(2)(e) which provides that the Chairman shall cause a vote to be taken by secret ballot. Now, under section 5 it seems the Assembly is denied its right to express its opinion categorically. It is by resolution instead of by vote. I would like that explained. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, in a democratic state the sovereignty of such state cannot be curtailed. The Constitution makes provisions so as to carry out the wishes of the people. It should not be framed in such a way that it can debar the wishes of the people. This clause which seems to worry some of the hon members is an enabling clause, enabling parliament, if it so desires, to retain the services of a man who seems to be serving the country in a dignified and admirable manner. It is not compelling. No-one is going to be compelled to retain the President after the expiration of seven years. Parliament must express the views of the people, as the hon the Minister of Education has indicated. Now, all resolutions are arrived at by vote. That is how you arrive at a resolution. It is only when there is unanimity that a resolution is not arrived at by vote. I think the Herschel member's English is rather confused in respect of the two "words “voting" and "resolution". By resolution we mean we have decided, we have resolved . How do we decide - unanimously or by voting? I think this is necessary. The Constitution should be elastic and provide for all eventualities. MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman, may I be allowed to supplement this. The question seems to raise the issue as to whether on re-election it will be by resolution or by secret ballot. The resolution merely determines the fact that he shall be a candidate. Having decided that this ex-President be a candidate then the Assembly follows the procedure to elect a President by secret ballot. In other words, the resolution puts him on the candidate basis — it does not put him in the President's chair. The word "re-election" is probably unfortunate, but I think the meaning intended is that which I have explained — namely, that he becomes a candidate for Presidency and then there is the election by secret ballot. CHIEF D D MLINDAZWE : I am not happy with the reply given by the hon the Minister of Education when answering the question by the hon Mr Pamla, I don't know whether he was merely expatiating on his personal ideas or whether it is an opinion embodied within this draft Constitution . This is the point which I could not follow, when the hon Minister suggested that usually the person nominated as President is elderly, because that contradicts
Clause 4 put and agreed to. Tenure of office of President. 5.
(1) Subject to the provisions of section 6 and 7 the person elected to the office of President shall hold that office for a period of seven years commencing on the day on which he takes and subscribes the oath prescribed in section 11. (2) The holder of the office of President shall, on the expiration of his period of office, not be eligible for reelection unless the National Assembly has expressly decided otherwise by resolution. (3) The President shall at no time absent himself from Transkei except with the prior consent of the Executive Council.
CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, this section provides for the tenure of office of the President and says it will be seven years commencing on the day on which he takes and subscribes the oath prescribed for him. Now, that tenure ofoffice is identical to the tenure of office of the State President of the Republic of South Africa, and also how he is removed from office. It is only the House of Assembly in Cape Town which can signify that the State President can be re-elected, but at the end of the seven years his office terminates. Now, subsection (3) says that the President shall at no time absent himself from Transkei except with the prior consent of the Executive Council - that is, the Cabinet. That signifies that he is the baby of the State, an honoured person who must be well looked after by his councillors. It would not be in accordance with his dignity if he were just to disappear and be found in the streets of District Six in Cape Town under certain influences. (Laughter) I move the adoption of this section, Mr Chairman. It is very simple. M/AGRICULTURE : I second. MR M P LUDIDI : Mr Chairman and hon members, I would like motivation on clause 5(2), partucilarly in regard to the words "unless the National Assembly has expressly decided otherwise by resolution". He is a symbol of State; he has no executive powers as such, except that he is advised by the Executive Council. Now, when we read this Constitution we should be in a position to compare it with other constitutions in other countries in the same way as this recess committee has done. We would like this point to be explained because in America the President is usually allowed only two terms, so what were the reasons for the recess committee deciding that the National Assembly may expressly resolve on his re-election ? MR K G NOTA : And don't, please, tell us about South Africa.
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the terms of section 3(4)(a) which says no person may be elected unless he is or above the age of 30 years. That 30 years is the minimum age for eligibility as President, but what of a man 32 years of age who is elected as President? If an elderly person is therefore to be appointed as President then in view of the reply given to the question by Mr Pamla provision should be made in the Constitution. MR GUZANA: Mr Chairman, I think what the hon the Minister of Education meant to convey to this House was that in other countries usually a man of, shall we say, middle age just before senile decay sets in - is elevated to the position of President. This new Assembly could very well accept that convention. It could elect a person who is 30 years and one day old, so that 30 years of age is the minium, but looking at other countries they usually take what you would call a seasoned person, so that the hon Chief from Bizana is not altogether excluded from the chance of getting there. (Laughter) I think that is quite clear..... CHIEF MLINDAZWE : Mr Chairman, my idea was to lead to a reply to a question put by the hon Mr Ludidi and the question arising from it put by the hon Mr Pamla, to apoint leading to the expiration of the term of office of seven years.... MR H PAMLA : Mr Chairman, it seems we have exhausted this section, but what makes us ask this question is this: Would it not be wise if we feel after the expiration of seven years . . .... CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, we must provide for this because it is democratic.
President should state the grounds of misconduct or the inability of such person to perform efficiently the duties of the office he is holding, but it is also provided that this petition shall not be considered without the House appointing a committee to investigate the subject matter of the petition. Ifsuch committee is appointed the National Assembly should consider its report. This section provides that there shall be no debate permitted in the Assembly in any proceedings under subsection (1 ). I move the adoption. M/EDUCATION : I second. MR M P LUDIDI : Mr Chairman, in regard to subsection (2)(a) the phrase occurs "... or the inability of such person to perform efficiently the duties of that office ..." We would like to know how it will be determined that he is unable to perform his duties, whether it will have to be proved that he has some disability. It is further stated that such a petition shall have the signatures of 25 members of the National Assembly. Are the members of the Executive not capable of deciding whether he is unable to perform his duties efficiently? Are they not members of the National Assembly? We would like an explanation, please. M/EDUCATION : Mr Chairman, I believe when we talk of inability of a certain person there may be several factors contributing to the inability of the individual who is accused accordingly. One of these may be that the health of the individual so appointed may deteriorate after his appointment. MR LUDIDI : That should not need a petition. M/EDUCATION : Or if there has been a mistake on the part of the National Assembly by appointing an alcoholic. (Laughter) That could be another contributory factor explaining his inability. Again, in my opinion I think this provision gives us satisfactory democratic machinery. If any allegation is made against the President then such matter is referred to the National Assembly, because after all the National Assembly is, in my opinion, truly representative of the wishes of the people in the country, therefore I do not think this clause is debatable. It is straightforward and I feel we must make progress. CHIEF MINISTER : In addition to what the hon the Minister of Education has said, where the President has been invited to perform a certain important duty such as opening a certain institution, and he accepts the invitation and this acceptance of invitations continues but he does not attend ; secondly, where the documents coming from your districts for approving certain matters pile on his desk and he is found roaming the country instead of attending to his work, that is clear inability to perform the duties required of him. MR Z W LUFEFENI : Mr Chairman, in regard to subsection (2)(a) I want this to be cleared up. Let us say this sick man has been appointed ,or this drunkard . Let us say he proves unsatisfactory, where does the petition from the 25 members come in? Shall we have to be inspired in drawing up this petition or otherwise ? We will not be able to watch his steps as ordinary members of this House. We will not be close to him. It has been hinted that he will act on the advice of the Cabinet or Executive. Will it be the Executive then which will suggest that this man is incompetent and that 25 members should sign the petition? CHIEF N T SIGCAU : On the same subsection, Mr Chairman, where it says a committee will be appointed to investigate the subject matter of the petition, what I would like to know is this : If the person appointed as President happens to be a paramount chief, what right have we to decide on such matters ? To make an example, in the case of a commoner such as Mr Guzana it is no disgrace, but will a person have a right to discuss a paramount chief if a paramount chief happened to be the State President ? Paramount chiefs are highly respected people .... MR C DIKO : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, I think I do not like this reference to paramount chiefs every time we discuss these questions, so I will ask the House to
Clause 5 put and agreed to. Resignation of President. 6. The holder of the office of President may at any time resign from such office by lodging his resignation in writing with the Speaker.
Clause 6 put and agreed to. Removal of President from office. 7.
(1) Upon the adoption by the National Assembly of a resolution declaring the person holding the office of President to be removed from office, such person shall forthwith cease to hold such office. (2) No resolution shall be adopted by the National Assembly under subseciton (1) (a) unless there has previously been submitted to the Speaker a petition signed by not less than twentyfive members of the National Assembly praying for the removal of the person holding the office of President on grounds of misconduct or the in ability of such person to perform efficiently the duties of that office and praying further that a committee be appointed by the Assembly to investigate the subject-matter of such petition ; and (b) if such committee is appointed, except after consideration of the report of such committee. (3) No debate shall be permitted in the National Assembly in any proceedings under subsection (1). CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, when there is a petition signed by no less than 25 members of the National Assembly that for certain reasons the President should be removed from office, the National Assembly may, after considering such resolution, adopt it, declaring the person holding the office of President to be removed from office, but the Assembly shall not consider any such resolution if it is not signed by 25 members at least of the National Assembly. The petition praying for the removal of the
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refrain from associating this sort of thing with a paramount chief. It is not nice. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman ,I think I understand the question of the last speaker, the hon chief from Tabankulu . When paramount chiefs agree to be nominated to the post of President they do so as members of this House and not as paramount chiefs, and any paramount chief who is very sensitive and would not like to be subjected to the rigorous application of this Constitution should refrain from accepting nomination. We have said that anybody will be President, whether a paramount chief or not. If he accepts nomination he becomes the servant of the people, but he should not doubt his integrity and his ability to carry out the duties of his office. The Cabinet, hon member for Umtata, will report the situation to the caucus of the party and that is how it will be set in motion . They will report that they are in trouble with the President, he cannot be controller, he does what he likes. MR P S KAKUDI : There is a very little point in subsection 7(2)(a). The petition will be signed by not less than 25 members of the National Assembly. If my calculations are correct 25 members who will be signing the petition only make one-sixth of the total number of the National Assembly. I am aware, of course, Mr Chairman, that the petition so signed by the 25 members will mean finality because a committee will be appointed to investigate the subject matter of that petition signed by the 25 members ofthe National Assembly. Well, I have this in mind - onesixth is really a small number if compared with the total number of the National Assembly. The trouble taken to appoint the committee to investigate the subject matter of the petition will have been taken on the petition of a lousy 25 members, only one-sixth, meaning that is the opinion of only one-sixth of the members. I would rather suggest that this number be raised to at least one above half the total number of members. MR H PAMLA: Mr Chairman, I rise to slightly disagree with the last speaker on this question of number. I think the explanation from the hon the Chief Minister is clear when he says this matter will be reported to the caucus of the party to start machinery in motion, and I feel that 25 members out of 150 is a very reasonable minimum. A percentage of 16 to set the machinery in motion is very reasonable. I feel if you augment the number you may find some people who are very much afraid of committing themselves and refuse to sign the petition and then don't get the required number to set the machinery in motion. You know, it is human nature to think of oneself when you are faced with a rather thorny situation . In the offices here, sometimes there is a case and one is just not prepared to come forward because he does not wish to be responsible for the dismissal of a person out of office. CHIEF MINISTER : As a matter of fact, I think this number is very big. I thought the hon member was going to say that and suggest ten. Now, in 1936 when we were at Fort Hare we had difficulty in removing students of the Students' Representative Council from office and the Constitution provided there should be a petition of ten students representing the whole campus. We had difficulty in getting these students from the senior students. They kept saying: No, we are completing our degrees and we will be dismissed. So only ten of us who were taking matric signed the petition with two first-year students in order to set the machinery in motion. Now, I think 25 is a reasonable number and should be accepted. MR KG NOTA : Mr Chairman, this is a very short point which I wish clarified . Assuming that the President is a paramount chief and now he is the person being removed and he is actually removed , how does that affect his position at home as paramount chief? M/JUSTICE : He goes back to his position as paramount chief.
MR NOTA : Whether he has been removed from office ? M/JUSTICE: Yes. CHIEF G M MABANDLA : Mr Chairman, dealing with the same point, as there will be an Executive Council Acting as advisers to the President I hold it is clear that no-one can point to the President and say he is wrong. Will the members of the National Assembly then have the right to enumerate the misdeeds of the President? Certain members will fear to come out and will not be able to notice what is seen by other members. MR M P LUDIDI : Mr Chairman, we are not happy about the removal of a President from office if he is a paramount chief because he has conducted himself in a disgraceful manner or has been inefficient. Well, we understand in terms of section 3(5) that nothing will affect the retention of his title .... ... MR GUZANA: No, that is in connection with his election as President. MR LUDIDI : Well, supposing he has been removed from office and there has been a lot of sensation throughout the country on account of this. When he goes back to his people will this not affect the loyalty of his people ? MR GUZANA: Mr Chairman, if a paramount chief has been removed from the position of President by reason of his inability and /or misconduct and/or other things inability may mean paralysis, mental disorder, need for psychiatric treatment and things like that - he then goes back to his subjects and his subjects in terms of the Regional Authorities Act can deal with him as they see fit. I know of cases where tribes have held on to their chiefs in spite of the fact that they are worthless. He is their chief and nothing will gainsay that. Assuming that I start influencing his people against him as a paramount chief, he can summon me to his Great Place and say: Guzana, what are you doing ? And to put it literally he will eat me five head of cattle . (Laughter) That is the discipline that relates to that kind of tribal loyalty, and this is known to all members of this House. Then, of course, let me just add this remark. It has been suggested that the method by which this machinery will be brought into motion is by way of a report to the caucus of the governing party, but let me assure you there is another alternative method whereby the Opposition, which may number 50, may in ther own caucus report this matter and get the 25 signatories. Now, let us realise, hon members, that section 7 provides for a method of impeachment which is a very serious attack on the character and integrity of the President and therefore the number 25, which may seem to be a bit high, is relevant to the serious consequences of this machinery once it has been put into operation. The President must not be the victim of the whim of a small number of people who seek to impeach him on frivolous grounds. In other words, the 25 who sign this petition must first of all consider the probabilities of success of their allegations and the acceptance of those allegations, because it would be tragic if allegations were to be made and found to be unfounded and the President has still to continue in his office. Clause 7 put and agreed to. Salary of President.
8.
(1) The President shall receive such salary and allowances as may be authorized by Parliament from time to time as a charge on the general revenues of the Republic. (2) The salary and allowances of the President shall not be altered to his disadvantage during his term of office.
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allowances that the President will receive . Now, that means to say that the Cabinet will decide what the President should receive and then bring the matter to parliament by way of appropriation . This will be done from time to time. The salary and allowances of the President shall not be altered to his disadvantage during his term of office . It is a very simple provision and is non-contentious, so even the most dull students can understand this. I move that this section be adopted . M/AGRICULTURE : I second. MR H PAMLA: I am just interested to know from the recess committee, as this Constitution is more or less based on the Republican Constitution, why the amount of the salary is not reflected . Is it because we are a new State? CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, the recess committee did not want to create a sensation. You can see the enemies of the Transkei - they have opened their mouths very widely and ready to pick on a small thing to criticize the Transkei. It is not necessary in a modest society to advertise the emoluments of a dignified person like the President. You can rest assured that the Cabinet will make a recommendation by way of appropriation in the Estimates and submit this to the House for decision.
custom saddled with a responsibility to look after the whole family ofthe deceased . She will be the beneficiary and then look after the others. That is the legal position even with the law of succession where there is no testament. The male heir of the deceased is saddled with the responsibility to enjoy the estate, together with the deceased. When we draw constitutions of this nature we have to show the world that we are very much advanced and that the Christian principles dominate over even our beloved customs . That is why we talk of a wife and not wives. MR E V NDAMASE : The hon member for Tabankulu said we should not say anything about paramount chiefs . However, the position of these chiefs must be considered . If a paramount chief is President and he retires, will he then be entitled to such pension even if he resumes his office as paramount chief? CHIEF MINISTER : In reply to the hon Chief from Libode, where the President is a paramout chief or chief or any other person and his term comes to an end and he decides to go back to his former job, he will receive his salary plus the pension. Clause 9 put and agreed to.
Acting President. 10. Whenever the office of President becomes vacant or the holder of such office is for any reason unable to discharge his duties the Speaker or, if there is no Speaker or he is unable to act, a person appointed by the Executive Council shall act as President. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, this section provides for the appointment of an Acting President when the office of President becomes vacant . I move the adoption. M/HEALTH : I second. CHIEF G W NKWENKWEZI : Is the Acting President going to be appointed by the Executive ? CHIEF MINISTER : By the Cabinet. The Cabinet will appoint an Acting President. CHIEF NKWENKWEZI : Will he be a member of parliament ? CHIEF MINISTER : It does not say so. It may be anybody. MR D TEZAPI : There is something which puzzles me in this section Mr Chairman . What is meant by the words "if there is no Speaker" ? How can there be an Assembly if there is no speaker? M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, a Constitution is made to provide for all exigencies . Even things which might ex facie appear to be improbable. You see, it might happen that during recess a Speaker may die, and you know the recess takes a long time before you get to the next parliament when a Speaker has to be elected and during that interim something may happen to the President and then it is as provided in this section. MR M P LUDIDI : I don't know whether I have understood the hon Minister properly. The section says "if there is no Speaker or he is unable to act . . . ." M/JUSTICE: If he is lying in hospital or something of that sort. That is very obvious. MR LUDIDI: What about the Deputy Speaker? M/JUSTICE: We provide for the appointment by the Executive Council, not the Deputy Speaker. CHIEF D D MLINDAZWE : When the Executive is going to make an appointment for an Acting President will they appoint someone who is a member of the Executive or a member of the National Assembly or any person outside this House ? M/JUSTICE: The Executive Council will appoint anybody who meets the criteria which are prerequisite for the appointment or election of a President.
Clause 8 put and agreed to. Pension of President and his widow.
9.
(1 ) Any person who has at any time held the office of President shall be paid as a charge on the Transkeian Revenue Fund a pension of an amount determined by Parliament from time to time. (2) There shall be paid (as a charge on the Transkeian Revenue Fund) to the widow of the person referred to in subsection (1 ) (unless she entered into a marriage with such person after he vacated his office as President) a pension at the rate of one-half of the pension payable, or which would have been payable, to such person.
(3) The pension payable (a) under subsection (1 ) shall be payable with effect from the day following the day upon which the person concerned vacated the office of President ; (b) under subsection (2) shall be payable with effect from the day following the day on which the beneficiary became a widow. CHIEF MINISTER : This is a very simple provision, Mr Chairman, which is intended to allow the President a pension. It will be paid to him as a charge on the Transkeian Revenue Fund and will be determined by parliament from time to time. Also, the widow of the President, if he should die leaving this poor lady, is also provided with a pension with effect from the day the husband dies. I think this is clear and I move the adoption . M/AGRICULTURE : I second. MR S P BHURALI : Mr Chairman, my worry about this is a very simple one. The hon the Chief Minister said it is quite straightforward, but what happens in the case of a President who happens to have two wives ? Who is the widow ? (Laughter) MR K G NOTA : My hon friend here has touched on the question I wanted to raise, but he has fallen short of this one. Supposing the President is removed after six years and before he has completed his term of office, will he be eligible for a pension? CHIEF MINISTER : No. Mr Chairman, in Tembu custom a man may take as many wives as he likes but even . then there is usually one lady who is recognized as the wife of the Great House, and this lady is in terms of our law and
Clause 10 put and agreed to.
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Oath of office of President or Acting President and notice of assumption of office. 11. (1) Before assuming the office of President or Acting President the person elected or otherwise required to hold that office shall take and subscribe before the Chief Justice or another judge an oath of office in the form prescribed in Schedule 2. (2) The President or Acting President shall make known by proclamation in the Gazette that he has taken the oath and assumed his office. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, this section provides for the taking of an oath before the Chief Justice or any other judge by the President, and also the Acting President, and the oath shall be made known by proclamation in the Gazette. Surely the students of St John's College will understand this. It is very simple.
be found in the Transkei : The red-blanketed people, especially the Gcalekas . . . . (Laughter) MR J M DUMALISILE : No , Mr Chairman, I object to that. M/JUSTICE : .... using red ochre for their blankets and skirts; the white depicting the coming of civilization , such as the Tembus (Laughter) and the Pondos and the Sothos ; and the green depicting the green undulating plains of the Transkei . MR D NDAMASE : The explanation shows that some people are still back-ward and some are making progress, but there is nothing in the flag to show that it represents black people. It does not explain who the rulers of the Transkei are. I would suggest there should also be some black colour which will represent who the rulers of the Transkei are. The red band is insufficient is because that colour is washable. It cannot last for a period of 25 years because at that time people will more or less have been westernized. That is why I suggest the introduction of black, because this is directly representative of the people. M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, the world over I have never seen a flag depicting the colour of the people of that country. In any event, if your argument that ochre will come to an end in 25 years' time or so, since the Transkei is going to be a multiracial or nonracial state who knows after 100 years that this country will still be inhabited by black people ? You may find that after that time the preponderant colour in the Transkei will be coloured . Will you change your flag to be coloured then ? MR S A XOBOLOLO : Mr Chairman, my suggestion is that this flag should incorporate the coat of arms in the centre of the flag. M/JUSTICE : This Constitution merely embodies the existing flag which was agreed upon by the Legislative Assembly. It is nothing new. Before this flag was agreed upon, thorough investigations were made and several flags compared in order to find out whether it does not coincide with other flags.
Clause 11 put and agreed to. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon members, last year after having made a marathon speech I landed in hospital and I feel that now I must hand over to the Deputy Chief Minister to lead this debate. After all, I am an old man. (Laughter)
CHAPTER 3. PUBLIC SEAL, NATIONAL FLAG, COAT OF ARMS , ANTHEM AND LANGUAGES. Public seal. 12. ( 1) The public seal of the Republic of Transkei shall be a seal on which there shall be engraved the coat of arms of Transkei circumscribed by the words" IRIPHABLIKI YASETRANSKEI". (2) The public seal shall at all times be in the custody of the President and , except in so far as may otherwise be determined by the President, shall be used on all public documents on which such use is required by this Act or any other law. M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, this section deals with the Public Seal. The Public Seal is that instrument which is used for stamping public documents . Now, it describes how that public seal will look. On it shall be engraved the coat of arms of the Transkei, a picture of which you have in the Constitution in Schedule 3 , and it shall be circumscribed by the words "Iriphabliki yaseTranskei". Subsection (2) provides that this public seal shall at all times be in the custody of the President and shall always be used on all public documents unless otherwise determined by the President. Clause 12 put and agreed to. National flag.
Clause 13 put and agreed to. Coat of arms.
14. The coat of arms of the Republic of Transkei shall be as described in Schedule 3. Clause 14 put and agreed to. National anthem. 15. The national anthem of the Republic of Transkei shall be "Nkosi Sikelel'iAfrika" in the version set out in Schedule 4. CHIEF G M MABANDLA : Mr Chairman, we are talking about Transkei , but when we come to the national anthem we talk of Africa ? Do you really know the difference between Transkei and Africa ? Is it not correct that the Transkei is going to be independent and the Republican Government will remain by itself because you have separated the Transkei from the Republic ? Would it not be correct when you adopt a national anthem to say "God bless the Transkei"? The Transkei is where we live and we have always impressed this upon you . I want to know where you are now moving. CHIEF MINISTER : Stick to the motion. M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, I am glad to notice that the evil spirit of Ncokazi is permeating into some of the hon members of this House . We are going to be the Republic of Transkei and we are in Africa and we feel that when we pray we must pray for the whole continent and it is fit and proper that we do so . CHIEF MABANDLA : Mr Chairman, I am grateful that the hon Minister has replied to me in this manner. As I am standing here to speak it was said we should speak
13. The national flag of the Republic of Transkei shall be a flag consisting of three horizontal stripes of equal width from top to bottom ochre red, white and green. M/JUSTICE: This section provides for the national flag which you already know very well. It consists of a cloth with horizontal stripes , three in number, which are, from top to bottom, red, white, green. MR D NDAMASE : Will the hon Minister please explain to us what these three colours indicate ? M/JUSTICE: I don't know whether the hon member for Tabankulu has not seen the national flag of the Transkei which is flown in front of this House every day, and if you have never been told it expresses three phases which are to
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openly and we should not be terrorized . CHIEF MINISTER : All right, carry on. CHIEF MABANDLA : You are talking about Ncokazi and we are presently discussing the Constitution. CHIEF MINISTER : Are you Ncokazi's disciple ? CHIEF MABANDLA : How are we going to be free so that we can speak freely over this draft Constitution ? CHIEF MINISTER : Come to the point. CHIEF MABANDLA : If the Ministers feel they should curb us from talking I would rather they carry on by themselves as far as this Constitution is concerned . The request is that the hon Chief Minister together with his brother must try to control themselves and must not steamroll the progress of this draft Constitution. CHIEF MINISTER : I am not steamrolling. Where is your Constitution ? CHIEF MABANDLA : I am going to leave them alone because I now realise they are trying to put me off by these interruptions they are making. MR MP LUDIDI : In connection with the national anthem I have just a small point to raise. In the Congress of the ruling party the leader of the Transkei hinted that it will be illegal to sing the national anthem in gatherings other than certain official gatherings. I am subject to correction, Mr Chairman, but I would like to know if it will be legal to continue singing the national anthem in their private gatherings in dignified meetings, but which are not government meetings.
nguage and when you are among the Sotho there is only one language, and that is Sotho. This is very important, particularly when we have to pray for Africa as well as for the children of Africa, so that we should have the blessing of the Almighty Herschel is now incorporated in the Transkei from the Ciskei. This very Herschel has shed tears because in the Ciskei the Sothos were driven out with their language . When we came to the Transkei we were welcomed by the son of Matanzima who said we would no longer be orphans. As I am now talking here, amongst us we have three chiefs from Herschel. They are not Tembu chiefs. At present they have turned their backs towards the Xhosas. The chiefs who are here now are chiefs of the Hlubis and Tembus. They agreed to come here because of promises that they would now have very good treatment on coming here. That is why we appeal today to these people that the Sotho people should receive the sympathy of this House in that they be also privileged to sing their prayers in their own language. We would that this request should receive favourable consideration and matters will be settled . I thank you, Mr Chairman. CHIEFTAINESS A MOSHESH : Mr Chairman, as a Sotho I feel I must contribute to this discussion . We are aware that you don't want us to repeat what has been said but we have a problem as chiefs of the Sotho-speaking people in our area. When we were informed of selfgovernment and independence, we were told to go and talk to our people about this. We went to the people to consult with them and we were questioned closely by the people. Some understood and some did not, but because we were chiefs we were able to talk to them and that is how we picked up the numbers to support independence. We have been made aware that when celebrating 26 October the only official national anthem will be "Nkosi Sikelela" and we would humbly ask the recess committee if we as Sothos have been forgotten in these celebrations. The last speaker has already indicated that Xhosa and Sotho are twins in this country and usually both anthems have been sung in our "Nkosi Sikelela" and "Morena Boloka". gatherings Can that not be continued with? This will improve relations between the nations of Transkei . This is a humble request, Mr Chairman, because we have taken Sotho as our own. We have been using Sotho all along and our children learn Sotho at school, but if today we have to pray in a different language then we do know what next . We are humbly asking as leaders of our people . In view of the fact that our people were not informed what the position was going to be, we ask the recess committee to make provision for this request we are bringing to the House. We have gone through bitter experiences as Sothos when we were with the Xhosas. We are Transkeians and we ask that we be treated as Transkeians and that provision should be made for us, I thank you, Mr Chairman. in the independent Transkei. MR C DIKO : Mr Chairman, this is one of the points on which I feel very strongly. It is most unfortunate for us to talk of a united Transkei and in that unification we again talk of division , talk of tribes. This is most unnecessary for any linguistic group to claim in the Transkei to be granted special privilege. When we united under Transkei we decided to sink our differences and to become one . I would like to quote a most important example of what division in language does in a State. Most of the troubles we have in South Africa are because the English and Afrikaners have decided to maintain their differences in so far as language is concerned, and there is a perpetual gulf between Afrikaners and English . You don't hear of French, Germans, Italians causing trouble in South Africa. So it seems unfortunate that we should have this talk about different languages. Once the Transkei which we seek to unify and make one decides to make a difference in languages we shall never be united. What I want to emphasize and I will stand for to the bitter end is that the Sothos must
MR P S KAKUDI : Mr Chairman, I am happy because this draft Constitution is being discussed above party politics . I will raise a point in the form of a request and I am sure this House will be sympathetic. Let me put this forward before I go any further. People are ready to receive and to accept information, particularly in such important matters as the Republic of Transkei . This is parallel to the matter I raised with the hon Minister of Education this very week. The people of the Transkei speak two different dialects and there is a predominance of those who speak the Nguni dialects . There is a Sotho element and there are rumblings about this question, and many of us have heard the mumbled opinions of the people. In the Herschel area even the Sotho-speaking people are interested in the independence of the Xhosa people of the Transkie in which they are incorporated . They have heard certain things and have questioned us about those things and we have stated we have no knowledge of such things. The people have already heard that "Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika" has been made the national anthem but they do not know the outcome of the deliberations thereon . My request to the recess committee is this : How would it be, as we are here consisting of a multiplicity of tribes and the Sothos take an active part in things in the way I have described, if "Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika" should be interpreted literally word for word into Sotho ? Let us say that in the independence celebrations the tribe divisions will be there . I suggest that it be literally translated so that Xhosa and Sotho will sing the same tune even if the words are different. I will quote the national anthem "Die Stem van Suid-Afrika" which is translated into English as "The Voice of South Africa." People have asked us what our intention is and where we are taking them to . I say I am taking them to nowhere. I tell them to sit down and enjoy the fruits of independence of the Transkei. I appeal to the recess committee to accommodate this suggestion because there will be no difference in the music or in the words, but only in the language . MR S P BHURALI : Mr Chairman, now we have touched a most important question in regard to the Transkei in which we now live. The Transkei has twins, one known as Xhosa and the other as Sotho . When we speak of twins the decisive factor will be the communal use of language in the Transkei . Whether you be Baca, Hlubi or Sotho in the Herschel district the thing which keeps you together is the la301 .
forget - the minority group of Sothos in Transkei must forget about a different language, because now they start talking about this national anthem they will start a different language. Why talk of a different national anthem for the Sothos ? How many Pondos have decided to sink their differences and accept a united Transkei ? So I want in po uncertain terms to stamp out this idea that the Sothos must be granted special privilege . You see, the Sothos are allowed to have their schools as Sothos in those areas which comprise Maluti, and the Department of Education is doing all it can to cater for the language and the teaching of Sotho as far as those schools are concerned . So, Mr Chairman, let us be very careful in dividing the Transkei, just as the Pondos, Hlubis, Bacas and Tembus have sunk into the Xhosa language and accepted it and they have become one. The sooner the Sothos in the Transkei identify themselves with Xhosa and the Xhosa anthem then we shall remain one In five years' time you will have forgotten about it, and don't come here with ideas that you want separate institutions and a separate State. We are Transkeians . If we start this the Pondos will soon be clamouring, the Bacas will soon be clamouring. So, Mr Chairman, I think we are through. Let us forget about the national anthem that will cater for Sothos as Sothos, and forget about Sotho as far as the Sothos are concerned . We have to have one, and only one. MR Z W LUFEFENI : Mr Chairman, the national anthem is music which is commonly used by a nation. It does not refer to some anthem for nations. We want to see that we close up this little crack. We are all Transkeians and will soon be ejonying independence - all of us. We have absolutely no differences. We are just one unit Transkeians. No-one has come here either as a Sotho or Baca, but we have all come here as Transkeians. I do not see why the Sotho-speaking people who are amongst us should have cause for complaint because it has been admitted in this House that Sotho is taught in their schools. I wonder when we are singing at the same time whether we will sing "Nkosi Sikelela" and they will sing "Morena"? We request our friends who have transfered from Herschel to the Transkei that they should feel they are Transkeians and do likewise. As we are in this House we are different clans. They all agreed they would use a common language -the Xhosa language . I therefore say we should all agree to sing only one national anthem , "Nkosi Sikelela" . They must feel at home and free now. CHIEFTAINESS M C LEBENYA : Mr Chairman, I am very disappointed to be involved in such a simple thing. I notice that the men sitting here are not feeling very well. (Laughter) The previous speakers have humbly asked the recess committee to make provision for the Sothos to celebrate in their own language and sing in their language. I do not think anyone could sing "Nkosi Sikelela" not knowing it in this area. We are not quarrelling over the national anthem but we want to celebrate, singing our own language, knowing that if we were to sing amongst these people here we should sit quite and listen to them singing. We are not quarreling with the Constitution . We are prepared to support the whole issue, but we would like to do things in our own way. We are aware that the hon Mr Diko says there are no French or Italians here but we are here and we have been singing " Nkosi Sikelela' and "Morena" all along. I ask the leaders not to be adversely influenced by this. Let us stay together in peace. MR M J MBALO : Mr Chairman and hon mambers, we are here in order to speak in friendship one to the other. It is absolutely not necessary that we should repeat ourselves in connection with this matter. The request that has been made by the hon member for Herschel should have received favourable consideration without much heat, and should be accepted. It is not something strange to sing this national anthem "Nkosi Sikelela" in Xhosa and in the Sotho language as well. This practice has been carried on
for a very long time. As things are we are made to understand we are not receiving any sumpathy. If we were not in the Assembly I would say this matter should not be discussed , but that people should be appointed to a committee which would make a report to us. However, I will not suggest that. I say we should come to mutual agreement because nothing bad will come out of this suggestion. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, this clause was thoroughly discussed by the recess committee. The hon Minister, Chief Moshesh, spoke at length on this same question, explaining the significance of the recognition of this Sotho dialect. I request the Chairman to postpone this question until the next section which will be dealing with languages. If we combine the anthem question and that of laguages then I will make a statement. I am a seasoned politician and I was in this House with the famous old Chief Jeremiah Moshesh, the grandfather of the present chief, the Minister of Health, with Joseph Moshesh and with the late Chief Lehana. There was never any discussion in this House about the question of language, nor any disagreement about flags. English was spoken here and there were interpreters but there was no Sotho interpreter. This is an innovation which arose out of certain ideas because the Sotho-speaking section would like to secede to Qwaqwa. Now, the flag of the Cape Colony was a flag on its own. There was a Free State Republic and the Republic of Natal and likewise the Transvaal Republic and each had its own flag. When the Union of South Africa was instituted two flags were designed ― the Union Jack and the South African flag. Before that English was the official language in the Cape. The Afrikaners were there but their language had no recognition. The official language in Natal was English; in the Free State and Transvall Hollands was the official language. Now, when the Union of South Africa came about these four independent territories decided upon English as the official language, but when the Republic of South Africa came about it was decided there must be one flag of the Republic and one national anthem. The reason for that decision is clear. I have been going about and I know that if you want to divide a nation and be sure of disagreement, institute a multiplicity of flags, recognize different languages. In England there are the Welsh people and you will not understand a Welshman speaking Welsh even if you speak English . It is a big country. The Irish speak English and so do the Scotch. England proper is only the size of the Transkei, if not smaller, but there is one flag and that is the Union Jack, and there is one national anthem. Go to America there are many languages spoken there such as French, English, Spanish, but the official language of that country is English. Go to France there are Germans there, but the official language is French. Go to Germany - there are many French people there, but there is one official language and one flag. Let me come nearer home, Mr Chairman. I don't know where this idea came in but in the Transkeian Constitution, section 5, this is how it reads : "The National Anthem of the Transkei shall be "Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika" . It is 13 years now that we have had this national anthem and nothing has ever been said about it. I do not think there will be any objection ifthe Sotho-speaking people will interpret this and compose words which will be sung to the same tune. There will be no objection. They can sing this in their own areas in their own remembrance days. No-one will worry about that. The national anthem of South Africa is " Die Stem van Suid-Afrika" but the English sing their own translation of that. There is freedom of language as far as they are concerned. They can pray in their own laguage. If the Constitution should allow any division, the nation will be divided. Let us go to Lesotho - the whole of the Quthing area consists of Tembus, Mpondomisis, Qwatis. There are Tembu chiefs there who are loyal to Lesotho, who speak a lot of Xhosa - even more Xhosa-minded than ourselves 302 .
but the national anthem is the national anthem of Lesotho. Those people cannot just stand up and claim and say they want their own flag. They would cause a split there. Once there is amalgamation of two independent states then naturally there will be two national anthems - Sotho and Xhosa, I will say this once and for all . We differed a lot with the hon the Minister of Health. We are great friends but on this question we differed. It would be a pity if this same question we are discussing would cause a split amongst the people of the Transkei. I have been twice to Matatiele to quell some unrest there. They were not discussing the language or the flag but they wanted to go to Qwaqwa. This agitation came from the labour centres. There were letters written to the Commissioner-General requesting that they be allowed to join Qwaqwa. I asked them this question: Where have we got a Sotho nation in Matatiele? Those Sotho chiefs have predominantly Xhosa subjects. What land will those people take over if they join Qwaqwa? We lost seats there because most of our candidates were Sotho-speaking. That was because the whole thing became a tribal and faction matter. It was not Transkei aligned. I am sorry but I am not discussiong this further. I would not like to arise now, just as we are on the flag clause. If you want to cause a split and never have any agreement, allow this application.
The discussion was adjorned. EVENING SESSION The discussion on Clause 15 of the draft Constitution was resumed. CHIEF G M MABANDLA : Mr Chairman, I am now dealing with the question of languages. MR H PAMLA: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, we are dealing with section 15, the national anthem, and the hon member is speaking about languages. CHIEF MABANDLA : The question of the national anthem is something of great importance. One hon member says we think we have come here to a play, but as far as I am concerned this policy is not similar to any play whatsoever. What I know is whenever there is any ceremony we always sing our national anthem “Nkosi Sikelela” and then another anthem "Morena" something. CHAIRMAN : I request the hon chief from Tsolo to please be very serious. We are dealing with a specific section here - section 15. I request the hon chief, I repeat, to be serious and to leave off all these jokes of his. CHIEF MABANDLA ; Mr Chairman, I am pleased when I have to speak in connection with a certain subject which apparently will find the nation in difficulties. We are a mixed nation. Why it appears today that there is a lot of talk in connection with this matter is because previously we used to sing the national anthem and then sing the anthem which begins with " Morena", but this national anthem which begins with " Morena" has not been included in this draft Constitution . The white people had their own national anthem "Die Stem van Suid-Afrika” , which meant they said this is their country and they are prepared to die for it. They sing “Ons sal lewe, ons sal sterwe”, and all that they sang in our own country, which is South Africa. Our people therefore have every right to claim and say this is their country. Our people have some rights. For instance, the people who come from Herschel and Glen Grey will be asked when they return to Herschel and Glen Grey what they have done in connection with their nationality. This is not a mere case of racial discrimination. It is because of what you accepted from the white Government — separate development -a policy of Divide and Rule. A national anthem is the translation of your thoughts in thanksgiving or prayer for your people and generations. It would
seem now that you people prefer a national anthem which should not also be in Sotho. You elect not to include it in this draft Constitution, though we, on the other hand, say this Sotho national anthem should be included . It must be borne in mind that each tribe or nation would prefer its own national anthem in accordance with the system you have followed of separate development. The time will come in the end when you will stop threatening us with terrorism the policy of because of your policy which you accepted Divide and Rule. M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, I hope the Chair will, assist us. We have no time to waste. We are pressed for time and there are some hon members who will introduce irrelevant matters into the matter at issue. We are now talking about the national anthem, not terrorism and separate development. CHIEF MABANDLA : Mr Chairman, this is a Matanzima Constitution. M/JUSTICE ; I think the time will come when we will have to introduce the Alcotester in this House. CHIEF MABANDLA : I want to tell the hon Minister it is for a long time that we have seen that these Matanzimas want to have complete rule over us in this Legislative Assembly. CHAIRMAN: I rule the hon member on the floor to withdraw that and thereafter resume his seat. CHIEF MABANDLA: Mr Chairman, I want to say ... CHAIRMAN: I rule the hon member to withdraw what he said and thereafter resume his seat. CHIEF MABANDLA: I withdraw, Mr Chairman. CHIEF Z SETUSE : Mr Chairman, I want to make a contribution to this discussion. The question has been discussed at length and although the members are keen to speak I think they are only repeating what others have said. Our friends here asked for a chance to take part in the discussion in a constructive way, but others have contributed to the annihilation of the other side. The hon members who are applying for some consideration would have withdrawn if they had known what the future held for them. I think those hon members have realised that what they had hoped would be constructive is more destructive than otherwise. MR P S KAKUDI : Mr Chairman, I feel this is one instance where one has to avoid trying any sort of irresponsible statement, particularly because the world right at this moment is listening and is keen to know what conclusion is arrived at in this matter. When I raised this matter on the issue of clause 15 I had in mind that the Sothos in the Transkei do not form part of the third group. Normally, from a political point of view the third group is a group which never becomes absorbed in the first group. I say this first group is the central core. I had a feeling that Sothos as a tribe, forming up with the other tribes the nation of the Transkei, should have a fair and full share. I really hope everybody who was listening to what I said initially when I stood on this clause realised the humility and the loyalty with which I expressed myself. I would not like to go to the extent of quoting certain extremists who have already expressed outside this House some two or three weeks ago their opinion with regard to the Sothospeaking people in the Transkei, but I feel compelled to quote one of them who addressed a meeting at Herschel. He said: "Be careful lest you find yourself having been subjected to Xhosa imperialism. " That is what he said. Those are his exact words. When we heard of this sort of utterance we took exception because we felt the Transkei, Herschel, is our home and we definitely must join hands with our Xhosa-speaking fellow-Transkeians. Mr Chairman, I still have the same conviction. We have suffered the same difficulties for quite a long time. We have one common goal - freedom of the black man. I seriously refute that statement uttered by that politician that the 303.
Sothos will be subjected to the imperialism of the Xhosa. I refute it. The Xhosa are our brothers. MR M E DEKEDA : Mr Chairman, I have not much The beeern intermarriage between us. In fact, our his togeth torre y has to say on this , but in 1908 there were two races, English and goes far back. What I was pleading for was a word by word Afrikaans, and in 1910 the two races united in the Union of translation of the Transkeian national anthem with the same South Africa . Today we are witnessing history in the tune. I regret, and it is really with sorrow that I realise making and to make history we have to remember what some of the hon members approached this matter in a very happened in former times. When the Union of South harsh way, as though they were referring to people who had Africa was formed it was then decided that there should be no right to be here, but I feel, Mr Chairman , that the Sothos two offiicial languages, English and Dutch. I would like as a people must have a full and equal share in the Transkei to know whether during that time the two white races had to boost the Transkei in the eyes of the world. Should this two national anthems or not. We only know of one during House refuse the Sothos the right that they now plead for that time . CHIEF G M MABANDLA : There were two . Are it will really be sad . I do not in any way regard this issue as a point of friction, but if the final conclusion arrived at you stupid ? CHAIRMAN: For the second time mus rule the hon in this House is that the Sothos are completely refused this t I right we will be in difficulty immediately on our arrival home. chief from Tsolo to withdraw that raw remark he has made I must assure this House, however, that we shall have a very against the hon member on the floor. "Are you stupid ?" strong leg to stand on. We have expressed the opinion is not parliamentary language and I warn him that I will of our people with all loyalty and I only hope we shall have not warn him again. the strength to approach and convince those people. CHIEF MABANDLA: I withdraw, Mr Chairman. MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman and hon members, MR DEKEDA: Mr Chairman, the remark made by this hon member did not worry me at all because I was in the I hope in our large-heartedness and openmindedness we will defuse this discussion of the tension which has tended same class at school with his father. His father was a man to characterize it. Most of the hon members have in I considered as being sensible . Mr Chairman, we heard the commenting on section 15, moved on to section 16 of this hon the Chief Minister telling us about certain nations draft bill and I shall try to limit my comments specifically which form the United Kingdom together. I will mention to section 15. In this connection I want to say that the three of them . No-one will dispute that there are three nationalities in Britain - the Scotch, Irish and the Englishrequest made by hon members from Herschel is something upon which this recess committee did not deliberate men, yet those three nations have one common national namely, a translation of "Nkosi Sikelel'iAfrika ". One anthem. would like also to mention the fact that at the time the recess M /HEALTH: Mr Chairman, I think we were all listening committee discussed this Herschel and Glen Grey were not when the hon the Chief Minister was speaking in this House represented in the recess committee. It is really for that so much so that there is no need for anyone to be rereason that we should approach this matter with an open peating what he said . All we would like to listen to is new mind and objectively, and I am convinced in my own mind ideas, new interpretations. that the plea which is submitted by these hon members is MR DEKEDA : Thank you , Mr Chairman. Let me not intended to emphasize division, but an attempt to sum up in this manner. In a country where there are many nationalities, for example in America where there are certain project a thinking and a feeling and a sentiment that characterizes the thinking of the Sotho- speaking people . I must, groups, where have you ever heard each of those races having its own national anthem ? In practice, nationalities on my own part, express my appreciation to the people of Herschel who have come here not with the attitude of: Do have one common national anthem. Where there is a this or else - but rather in the light of a humble request. conglomeration of races in a country the only thing which I think we should reciprocate that humility with sympathebinds those people into one nation is to have a common tic reaction. Unless I did not hear the hon the Chief national anthem . CHAIRMAN : Hon members, I think this question Minister properly, it would appear that in his remarks in relation to section 15 he stated that there is nothing with a in which we are dealing with the national anthem has been Sotho translation of "Nkosi Sikelela" being sung at festivals so thoroughly canvassed that there is repetition now. I that are held by the Sotho- speaking people. In other shall therefore call upon the acting leader of the House in connection with the suggestions which have been made words, in any festivals where they are doing their own thing in this House . they can sing " Nkosi Sikelela" in Sesotho. Now, hon members, I would like you to look at the version of " Nkosi M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, it is really a pity that a Sikelela" in Schedule 4. You will notice that the chorus is very small matter like this should have developed into an argument which at times became rather embarrassing to "Yihla Moya", and yet you have heard people sing "Yiza Moya". Now, in order to avoid different versions of listen to. I feel that most of the speakers were speaking at "Nkosi Sikelela" the recommendation is that this form be cross- purposes. I think the hon member for Mqanduli, the official form, and so when the Sotho- speaking people Mr Guzana , summed up the whole argument as far as this sing "Nkosi Sikelela" in their festivals it is quite possible section is concerned . If I understood the first speaker that you may have various forms in which this is interpreted from Herschel airing his views, he did not quarrel with the I think the hon members who have sponsored this idea of a question of " Nkosi Sikelela" being the national anthem. Sotho version being incorporated in the Schedule is to What he pleaded for was the question of a Sotho version to eliminate the various interpretations which could be sung be sung in the same tune with the same notes with the same of "Nkosi Sikelela" in Sotho. In other words, section 15 meaning. The question for us to reply to is whether such emphasizes the principle or accepts " Nkosi Sikelela' as the an exercise would be practicable. The hon the Chief national anthem and the Sotho- speaking people who are Minister struck a happy medium when he said the Sotho Transkeians accept " Nkosi Sikelela" as the national anthem people would not be debarred from singing "Nkosi Sikelela" and all they ask is that it be written in an official form which in their language in their own functions. Now, if I will not shall be known to be the one recognised. In other words, be transgressing I will submit to this House that what these the request is not for an amendment of section 15. All that hon members seek is provided for under section 16. Now, is required is that Schedule 4 should have the Sotho version while discussing relative to section 16 I wish to submit that of "Nkosi Sikelela". That is really what will assist to in my own view singing is the same as talking, but in different embody even the sentiments expressed by the hon the tones, so that if section 16 allows the Sotho people to use Chief Minister. their language in legislative, judicial , àdministrative and such other governmental purposes as the President may 304,
are also official languages, and that is not what is desired here. In any event, the use of the word "may" makes it flexible for those people who want to use Sesotho. CHAIRMAN : I think section 15 has been thoroughly canvassed in conjuction with section 16, for that matter. Unless there is going to be someone who is going to come up with anything fresh I shall now ask for the assent or dissent of the House on this section. CHIEF N SIBI : Mr Chairman, I was not aware that section 15 and 16 would be dealt with together. M/JUSTICE : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, it was just by the way that section 16 was also discussed . The attention of the House is drawn to section 15. That is what we are dealing with now. We are coming to section 16, although we have touched on it in connection with section 15. CHIEF SIBI : I thought there was no longer to be any discussion on section 16. Clause 15 put and agreed to. Languages. 16. Xhosa shall be the official language of the Republic of Transkei and Sesotho, English and Afrikaans may also be used for legislative, judicial and administrative purposes and such other governmental purposes as the President may from time to time determine by proclamation in the Gazette. CHIEF N SIBI : Mr Chairman, we understand what is set out in section 16 but would like to have a short explanation from the recess committee. We would like a change to be made here, especially in regard to Sesotho. I would plead with the committee to accept my request in regard to this change. It is clear that Xhosa shall be the official language of the Transkei, but I would like to know whether it is possible that Xhosa and Sotho shall be the official languages of the Transkei and the other two languages, English and Afrikaans ,may be used. This is not a new request because the Government is aware that this language has been used and is being used in the Transkei, We would be happy if our request could be accepted by the recess committee and this change effected. This would keep our relations happy in the Transkei. I am not going to involve myself in the argument which has taken place in connection with languages, but I merely make this plea. Further than that we are only expressing the feelings of the Sotho-speaking people at home and we humbly make this plea. The hon member for Herschel has explained that they will have a very poor report to take to their people if this is not accepted. I also say I will not have anything good to report to my people if this is not accepted by the committee.
from time to time determine in the Gazette, I personally see no need for the Sotho version to be actually written into the Constitution when it is provided for under section 16 that they may use it for these various other purposes which are provided for in section 16. In fact, if the Sotho version were to be inserted under Schedule 4 it would mean it would be contrary to section 15, which says that the national anthem will be " Nkosi Sikelela', so I feel my hon friends from Herschel can tell their electorate that Sotho is provided for under section 16 and the Sotho version of "Nkosi Sikelela" may be sung. M/HEALTH : Mr Chairman, I must say I appreciate the remarks made by the hon the Minister of Justice, more especially when he refers the hon members for Herschel to section 16, but I just want to raise a technical point here which, to my mind, is open to doubt and I do believe that is the matter which worried the hon members for Herschel . If we read section 16 it says : “Xhosa shall be the official language of the Republic of Transkei and Sotho, English and Afrikaans may · ." I am putting the emphasis on "may." It may not . . . . . M/JUSTICE : No. 66 may also be M/HEALTH : Let me read the rest. used for legislative, judicial and administrative purposes and such other governmental purposes as the President may from time to time determine by proclamation in the Gazette" . What worries the hon members is this : Will there be no time when it shall be said by proclamation that Sesotho may or must not be used? MR S P BHURALI : The possibilities are there. M/HEALTH : I submit that this is a matter which worried me a great deal even in the recess committee. As a compromise I even suggested that "may" be changed for "shall" and I said if that could be done I believe the Sothospeaking people would be happy with the full understanding that Xhosa will be the official language. Well, representations were made by the members, some of whom are attorneys, and I was given the impression that “shall” automatically means to say it is binding. In other words, Sesotho shall be on a par with Xhosa. Mr Chairman, I think all we would like to get, or the hon members for Herschel would like, is the assurance that there will never come a time when it shall be said that Sesotho will not be used. I want to endorse the remarks of the hon the Leader of the Opposition when he says he appreciates and thanks the hon members for Herschel for the manner in which they presented thier case. To my mind, it was a mere plea on behalf of the people they represent in this House. CHAIRMAN : Hon members, I shall not allow this debate to be lowered from the standard which it has reached now, so, as the hon the Minister of Health has expressed himself, technically speaking that word "may" is in the feelings and the hearts of the hon members for Herschel, and I implore the House that we should terminate the discussion on this clause on that note. MR H PAMLA: On a point of correction, Mr Chairman, this "may" is not in clause 15 but in clause 16. CHAIRMAN: Yes, but I am talking about the feelings of the people of Herschel in connection with the word "may". M/HEALTH : Mr Chairman, I don't think I am wrong in referring to clause 16 when canvassing clause 15. If it be an error it was done even before we adjourned here. If it be an error it was done by the hon the Chief Minister here, that is why I say in canvassing clause 15 I found myself bound to refer also to clause 16. M/JUSTICE : I think we should be careful of trying to change the whole complexion of a sentence by the words we use. Let us forget about "mays" and "musts", because in section 16, for instance, if we said that Xhosa shall be the official language of the Republic of Transkei and Sesotho, English and Afrikaans must also be used ,it will mean these
MR C DIKO: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, we shall not allow another corner to discuss the issue we are discussing here. We want this thing done without any tricks. Let us adjourn if they want to have a debate in that corner. M/JUSTICE: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, I think the hon member is either curious or out of order. We are members of the recess committee and we have the legal draftsmen who were appointed to assist us. Like the Secretaries of departments who are always here when matters are discussed in this House, we have every right to refer matters to them for clarification. For that matter the hon member is a member of the recess committee (Interjections) and what we are doing is to assist him. MR DIKO: If the legal advisers of the recess committee have to be interviewed, all the members of the recess committee must be there, so if there is any need to see them let us adjourn. CHIEF G M MABANDLA: Yes, there must be no secret meetings here. MR S P BHURALI : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, I rise to support the views of the hon the Minister of Justice. 305.
This is a serious business. The hon member for Tabankulu is in a terrible mess. He should have caucused properly about these matters and we are trying to get him out ofthat ditch. He must keep quiet. MR DIKO: Mr Chairman , I will not allow a newcomer here to come and tell me .... (General uproar) CHAIRMAN: Order, hon members . CHIEF N SIBI : Mr Chairman, it is well known that if people ask anybody who represents them to make pleas on their behalf and he comes back with empty hands he is in trouble with the people who have sent him. If the Government accepts our pleadings we are going to be happy and will always contribute to anything the Government demands of us in the Transkei. That is all I wish to say, Mr Chairman. MR S P BHURALI : Mr Chairman, I find it very difficult in a modern age that when we are getting freedom we should think with blinkers. We are fighting for the liberation of all the people of Africa, black and white ; we are expecting that one day we shall have white people sitting in this House of Parliament. Our policy is that of a nonracial state and we must live above petty differences. I see no reason why we should circumvent and try to say this and that about the languages when we can say here in the Transkei we can have four languages . We shall not be creating a dangerous precedent. We shall be accepting a historical situation. White people are here in Africa to stay; black people are here in Africa to stay. No white man can say the black people must get out of Africa; no black man can say the white people must get out of Africa We must make provision in this State to accommodate such a historical occasion, We allow all the people in this southern part of Africa free use of their languages. These languages must rank part and parcel with other languages without any fear. I talked about creating a precedent. When we look at a language we take into consideration the geographical situation in which these people are situated. We also take into consideration the influences of languages surrounding the area and that will help us to reach a stage when we can decide as to the language or languages which must be used. We have a country in Europe - Switzerland . This country is surrounded by countries which speak wellknown world languages . It has been so influenced by the French-speaking majority of the people, by Hollands, by the languages ofGermany that it has opted for four languages We have no instances of the Swiss people having degraded themselves by the use of these languages. Instead, we have got the best scientists from these people. We cannot bring an argument that their children have had to face difficulties in the acquisition of these languages . Instead , we have a bright generation that can generate any kind of modern thinking. We have the best doctors, engineers, whatever you need in a state, and at the end of it all, the World, Court of Justice is in that country. The Swiss with the use of these languages are a nation to reckon with. Our leaders leading the African out of bondage owe us a duty to use the languages that are the best for the people of that country. The English people by right of conquest ruled over South Africa, but at the Treaty of Vereeniging all these differences were buried. The Afrikaaner was given his rightful place ; the black people were sold down the drain. If at the Treaty of Vereeniging these languages spoken in South Africa were given their due regard there would not be all this talk in South Africa. Are we going to have a policy oftit for tat? Let us have here in our Transkei clearminded thinking leaders who are going to live above these petty differences and create a State that can be reckoned with in the world. I am not happy about the use of the word "may" here, Mr Chairman. MR C DIKO : "Petty differences" why worry? MR BHURALI : You would be surprised to find this
is not petty. You have not consulted this Constitution , my friend. For the information of the hon member the cat is out of the bag. Turn to section 41 : "A bill shall become law upon being assented to by the President and the secretary of the Assembly shall cause a copy of the Act in the Xhosa language (together with a copy thereof in the English and Afrikaans languages) to be enrolled of record . . . . " and there is nothing said of the Sotho language. What do you say about that cat? It is out of the bag . (Laughter) Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR H PAMLA: Mr Chairman, I think the hon member who has just sat down has given a very clear exposition of the subject and in my mind I am now busy thinking whether we cannot have a compromise to meet the aspirations of this Sotho group in the Transkei. As it has been said, the use of the word "may" does not really guarantee that the position will always remain in their favour. I feel, Mr Chairman that a language goes together with culture. You deprive people of their language and you automatically deprive them of their culture. I feel that it would be in the interests of harmony and unity in the Transkei if, for instance, we were to insert a clause to the effect that Sotho shall enjoy priority in the predominantly Sotho-speaking areas of the Transkei. I feel, Mr Chairman, that way we would guarantee to the Sotho-speaking people the right to use their language in their particular areas. M /JUSTICE : You are killing them . Where are they predominant in the Transkei ? You are killing them while you say you are helping them. CHAIRMAN : Hon members, I would like to remind the House we are dealing with the basis of Transkeian independence. There are those hon members who have come here solely to enjoy themselves and there are those hon members who persistently refuse to be controlled by me. I implore the hon members of the House to concentrate on this draft Constitution Bill. Please, those who are not serious should get out and let those who are serious concentrate on their work ; MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman and hon members, no doubt you did notice our concern over this clause. Most of you saw some of us consulting the minds which helped draw up this proposed Constitution, and our approach to them was motivated solely by a desire to compromise and a desire to accommodate those who seek to give recognition to Sotho. Now, here is something which is being suggested to this House let me just explain one inportamt point which should be clear in our minds. The recess committee merely has made recommendations which are embodied in this Gazette before you. Your share in this Constitution is to make counter recommendations, if need be, and then the recess committee will look into these recommendations from the House and see whether or not they can be accommodated in the draft that will ultimatlely come to you. I would like to assure you of the fact that every suggestion reasonably made will be given due consideration. I have made this procedural explanation so that hon members should realise that they are at liberty to make suggestions to the committee. Now, here is a suggestion which, if you feel merits attention, you could have referred to the recess committee for further consideration, and this relates to clause 16. Those who have good memories need not write this down, but if your memory is faulty please take your pencil and write this down : "Xhosa shall be the official language of the Republic of Transkei. Sesotho, English and Afrikaans may also be used. Their use for legislative, judicial, administrative and other governmental purposes shall be as determined by the President by proclamation from time to time." Now, looking at the original form of section 16, Sesotho, English and Afrikaans may be used for these various purposes mentioned on the determination of the President. In other words, Sesotho, English and Afrikaans would only be used if by proclamation the President had 306.
MR MADIKIZELA : Yes , I am happy to realise no malice was intended -- BUT . . . . . . ! (Laughter) MR H H ZIBI : Mr Chairman, I am equally concerned in this matter because I also regard it as an unintentional slight on us, but I want to know what is the position now. Is this going to be discussed by the House which will refer it back to the committee, which is turn will again refer it to this House ? MR C DIKO : Mr Chairman, hon members and honourable everybody, (Laughter) now to regularize the irregular I think we must defer this clause 16 so that the recess committee can be consulted on the suggested amendment and we proceed with the section that follows. Thanks Mr Chairman. MR ME DEKEDA : Mr Chairman , I second that
stated that either all or some or one should be used for legislative, judicial, administrative purposes and other governmental purposes. In the suggested draft these may be used and this is unconditional. Now, the hon the Minister of Education wants to know: "May be used for what ?" They may be used for legislative purposes ; they may be used for judicial purposes ; they may be used for administrative purposes ; but such use is not dependent upon a determination by the President through a proclamation, and the President therefore is not obliged to exercise a directive by proclamation for Sesotho, English and Afrikaans to be used. MR H PAMLA: What is the implication ? MR GUZANA: That is the interpretation of the suggested wording in preference to the original wording as appears in section 16, so that all the President needs to say is that you can use Sesotho, you can use English, you can use Afrikaans, and if the use of Sesotho or English or Afrikaans is going to cease then there will have to be an amendment of the Constitution. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR R S MADIKIZELA : Mr Chairman, what is the relevance of the dictation by the hon member for Mqanduli in regard to the prepared draft Constitution ? If it had been necessary for a certain clique of the recess committee to see the advisers of the draft Constitution, was it not necessary for them to come to the recess committee and confide to us what had been discussed ? We are jealous of our membership of the recess committee, Mr Chairman, and together we are presenting this draft Constitution. They could have consulted with us so that we should give them our backing in this exercise. MR S P BHURALI : Mr Chairman, life at its best is a compromise. I am very happy . . . MR MADIKIZELA : On a point of order, before we enter into further discussion on this matter this must be put straight. We must have access to what the hon member for Mqanduli said, but we cannot because he has not taken us into his confidence. MR GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members .... CHAIRMAN : I beg your pardon. Before the hon chief for Tsolo arrived, there was silence. Now pandemonium is starting again. M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, we have spent part of this afternoon listening to the unsavoury remarks of the hon member for Tsolo, and he is in the habit of making such remarks whilst sitting down. I therefore move that he be taken out of this House and the allowance for today be withdrawn. CHAIRMAN : I think the finger that has been pointed to the hon chief from Tsolo by the hon the Minister of Justice, the Acting Leader of the House, has served its purpose. I therefore request the Leader of the House to suspend this punishment. M/JUSTICE : As you please, Mr Chairman. MR GUZANA : Mr Chairman, the question has been asked as to why there was this dictation . Firstly, because I was deputized to do so by the Acting Leader, and also to give the explanation as received. Secondly, the motive behind it was to resolve a situation which justifies compromise. Thirdly, my explanation of the procedure to be followed in relation to the discussion has not taken away from the recess committee its right to discuss this matter. Fourthly, when he looks at this alternative wording he shall have the benefit of the views of this House. That is the reply, Sir. CHAIRMAN : I take it it was an oversight on the part of the people who were whispering with the legal men not to consult during break time with the other members of the recess committee. From the explanation rendered by one of the hon members, Mr Guzana, it is clear there was no subversive attitude in this. I think the idea was to try to break down the deadlock that existed . I hope the hon member for Ngqeleni is now satisfied.
proposal. MR W M MADIKIZELA : Mr Chairman, we are speaking about languages. Language is communication. CHAIRMAN : Just a moment, the hon member for Tabankulu has moved that this section be deferred until the recess committee has dealt with it separately in order that they should iron out that slight they feel. Agreed to. Discussion on clause 16 deferred. CHAPTER 4 EXECUTIVE GOVERNMENT
Executive government. 17. (1) The executive power of the Republic shall vest in the President acting on the advice of the Executive Council and any reference in this Act or in any other law to the President shall, unless it is expressly otherwise provided or must necessarily be otherwise implied, be construed as a reference to the President acting on the advice of the Executive Council.
(2) Subject to the provisions of this Act there shall be vested in the President the administrative control and the powers, authorities and functions in all matters affecting the peoples of Transkei (other than legislative powers and the authorities, powers, rights and immunities of the supreme chief) which immediately prior to the commencement of the Status of Transkei Act, 1976 or this Act were vested in the State President of the Republic of South Africa or in the Cabinet of Transkei, as the case may be. (3) The President shall exercise his powers, authorities and functions under subsections ( 1) and (2) in writing under his signature which shall be confirmed by the public seal of the Republic referred to in section 12 and every instrument signed by the President shall be counter-signed by a Minister. (4) Nothing in the preceding provisions of this section contained shall be construed as affecting.
(a) the exercise by the President of his powers, authorities and functions relating to (i) the appointment of any Minister under section 18(1) ; or (ii) the summoning or proroguing of Parliament or the dissolution of the National Assembly in terms of section 2(2) or any other law; or (b) the constitutional conventions which, as provided in section 2(4)(b), relate to the exercise of his powers, authorities and functions by the President. M/JUSTICE:
307.
Mr Chairman, this chapter deals with
Chairman, there is something I would like to comment on, and it is this: I have been comparing the provisions of subsection 17(1 ) incorporates the contents of subsections 16(1) and (2) in the Republican Constitution. Now, the Republican Constitution does not contain subsection (2) and this is a matter which is giving me some concern as to why it has not been incorporated there. This is a matter which I think the recess committee should consider.
executive government. It provides firstly that the executive power will be vested in the President acting on the advice of the Executive Council and provides further that whenever the appellation " President" is mentioned it will be taken to refer to the President acting on the advice of the Executive Council. That is what is provided in subsection (1 ). Subsection (2) provides that the administrative control will be vested in the President, and I hope hon members will now understand that when it says "will be vested in the President" it means the President acting on the advice of the Executive Council. It further provides that powers, authorities and functions in all matters affecting the people of Transkei which were, immediately before the commencement of the Status of Transkei Act 1976, or this Act, vested in the State President of the Republic of South Africa or in the Cabinet of the Transkei — all those powers, functions and duties shall now be vested in the President. Thirdly, it provides that the President when exercising his powers shall do so in writing, and such writing shall be confirmed by the public seal of the Republic and every instrument or document signed by the President shall be countersigned by a Minister. I move the adoption of this section. M/HEALTH : I second. MR M P LUDIDI : Mr Chairman, in subsection (2) there is reference to the supreme chief but when paging through the Constitution to find the definition of supreme chief we cannot find it. What is the supreme chief and what are his immunities ? My second question refers to subsection (3). We are worried about the use of the indefinite article between "by" and Minister" — "countersigned by a Minister". To us this means that the President may use any member of the Executive to countersign a document. Now, why should the President not use a Minister who is concerned in the matter to be signed ? If the matter relates to justice then he uses the Minister of Justice. Now, we are not clear whether this will not allow Ministers to tread in the domain of another Minister . Mr Chairman, we would like very humbly a motivation on this. MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman, the hon member wants the definition of "supreme chief". Well, first of all that personality does not figure in this Constitution. This is a reference to those legislative powers and authorities, rights and immunities which were exercised by the President of the Republic of South Afrika as supreme chief of the native people in South Africa . (Laughter) He could move a tribe or a group from one place to another ; he could determine places of residence for tribes. He was supreme even over paramount chiefs and all those powers , authorities, rights and immunities which were exercised by the State President as a supreme chief are excluded . Now, you want to know why "countersigned by a Minister". Whatever the President does is something which has been referred to him by the Executive. In other words, he attaches his signature and seal to a document or to a bill submitted to him, or a proclamation submitted to him by the Prime Minister. Now, each department has a Minister and the Minister is the only person who can deal with any matter relating to his particular department and no Minister of another department may countersign a proclamation, for instance relating to work done by another department, otherwise the countersigning will be invalid and of no force and effect because this has been done by a Minister who is not at the head of the department handling that particular aspect of administration. The phrase "by a Minister" means in effect, therefore, the Minister whose department is affected by what the President seeks to be signed and is in writing. That is the explanation of the phrase "countersigned by a Minister" . The hon the Minister of Agriculture points out that the Acting Minister will also countersign by reason of the fact that whilst he is acting the powers, duties, functions and obligations of the Minister are exercised by the Acting Minister. Just before you put the clause, Mr
Put and agreed to . MR GUZANA: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, I made the observation in relation to the fact that subsection (2) has no counterpart in the Republican Constitution and there is a fear that this may vest some executive powers in the President when actually we want the President to be purely a nominal head. We were asking if that subsection (2) could not be referred to the recess committee for further consideration and I move accordingly. CHIEF D D P NDAMASE : I second, Mr Chairman.
Agreed to.
Discussion on clause 17 deferred.
State departments and Ministers. 18. (1 ) For the discharge of the business of the Republic the President may from time to time establish such departments of State as he may consider necessary and may appoint persons, not exceeding 15 in number, to administer such departments. (2) Subject to the provisions of subsection (3), the persons appointed under subsection (1 ) shall (a) be Ministers of State; (b) hold office during the pleasure of the President ; and (c) while holding office, constitute the Executive Council. (3) No person shall hold the office of Minister of State(a) unless he has first made and subscribed before the President or a person designated by the President an oath in the form prescribed in Part I of Scheduie 5; (b) for longer than three months unless he is or becomes a member of the National Assembly. (4) Except to the extent to which provision has been made in terms of subsection (1 ) any department in existence in the government of Transkei immediately prior to the commencement of this Act shall be deemed to have been dully established under that subsection and any person administering any such department to have been duly appointed under this section to administer that department, provided that such person shall make and subscribe the oath prescribed in subsection (3)(a). M/JUSTICE : Subsection (1 ) provides for the appointment of what we call Cabinet Ministers and it provides that the Cabinet Ministers at any time may rot exceed 15 in number. Subsection (2) provides that these apointees will be known as Ministers of State, that they will hold office during the pleasure of the President and while they hold such office they will constitute the Executive Council . The qualifications of persons to be appointed as Cabinet Ministers are provided in subsection (3) . Firstly, he shall be made to subscribe to an oath before the President or anybody designated by the President ; and secondly he shall not hold office for longer than three months unless he is or becomes a member of the National Assembly. Now, I will have to explain that. There are times when the President may appoint somebody who is not a member of the Assembly. This subsection makes provision that when that person is 308.
members take it as if every time there is a vacancy somebody will be taken from outside and put in. As I say, Constitutions are made to be flexible and to meet certain exigencies. You provide for what might be of assistance in the future when you draft your Constitution . It might be you, Mr Ludidi, who might be very useful where you are and you might be useful in the State. M/EDUCATION : I think there is a need for this provision, as the hon the Minister of Justice has said. In all Constitutions there must be a provision for even things which are unknown at the moment. For argument's sake, say in the National Assembly there are 75 members and there is an election forthcoming and it is a well-known fact among these 75 members none may be good enough to head a particular department, and there is a gentleman coming from abroad - a man of highest reputation, say, in the Department of Economics, is it not wisdom and in the best interests of the country that this gentleman who has a reputation in this particular field should be brought here — especially, after all, if he is only going to be there for three months and thereafter he is expected to go to the people so that the people elect him ? MR L S BALENI : Where ? On a point of order, Mr Chairman, in which constituency will he be elected if there is no vacancy in the Assembly? Say for instance this person comes from Cofimvaba and a vacancy occurs in the post of a Cabinet Minister who represents Libode, what happens then ? MR LUDIDI : Mr Chairman, while it may be good for a Government to have a sense of prediction, at the same time I think these things must be done in a way that is democratic. Looking at the period this Minister will be in the Cabinet it is too short and gives the impression that it will be a case of emergency. Now, I don't see why the President and the existing Executive cannot use the Secretaries of that department who have the expertise in the particular department. M/JUSTICE: Use them as Ministers ? MR LUDIDI : I think the administration and government of a country mainly depends on the strength of the administration — that is, the Secretaries, assistant secretaries down to the clerks. In Britain the government does exist for a period without a Government, but the administration does not collapse. Now, why will it be necessary to bring a man to the Assembly by making him first a Cabinet Minister? As far as we are concerned this is irregular. M/EDUCATION : Mr Chairman, I think the hon member for Matatiele is conceding ,which means he is accepting the fact that there must be this proviso. He says we could make use of the Secretary of the department. M/JUSTICE: As Cabinet Minister? MR/LUDIDI : No. I am sorry, Mr Chairman, I want to explain myself. If there is need for a Minister, say, to run the Department of Education and this is only for a period of three months, why can't the Executive consult with the Secretary of that department pertaining to that expert knowledge they want ? M/EDUCATION : But situations of life are unpredictable and it is wisdom to have a provision of this nature. MR LUDIDI : It just gives the feeling that some day there may be clashes in this country. A person becomes a Cabinet Minister for three months and he has never been before the people. Now, after three months he goes to the people to seek election and he can even make use of this period of three months to canvass the votes of the people. MR R S MADIKIZELA : Mr Chairman, with due respect to the recess committee I feel we should say we note this point raised by the hon member for Matatiele and seconded by the hon member for Mount Ayliff. M/AGRICULTURE : I want to say that this is not altogether a new thing. MR NOTA: It does not matter. M/AGRICULTURE : In the Republic of South Africa
appointed he shall not hold that office for more than three months. This means that if he is appointed he must contest a seat and become a member of the National Assembly. I move the adoption of this section. M/EDUCATION : I second. — No MR K G NOTA: Mr Chairman , I am on (3)(b) person shall hold office as Minister for longer than three months unless he becomes a member of the National Assembly. Mr Chairman, I am really not happy about this provision. The National Assembly consists of 75 chiefs elected from an electoral college of chiefs and 75 representatives of the people elected from 28 electoral — that is, from 28 districts -— and these people are centres -representative of the Transkei ; and, Mr Chairman, I take it that in fact the Ministers will be elected from amongst these people. Why therefore, for any other reason, should there be a chance for a person who is not a member of this Assembly to be appointed by the President and be made a Minister for three months ? This person is being brought into this House by a backdoor (Laughter) and is being given a chance to be brought to the people in a government car at government expense to fight an election. He is being given all the advantages. Mr Chairman, I am totally totally against this provision.60 This thing should be phrased in this way, Mr Chairman : .... unless he is a member of of the National Assembly." That is all. MR M P LUDIDI : Mr Chairman, indeed we on this side regard this as an insult to democracy. M/JUSTICE: Which side ? (Laughter) MR H PAMLA: We share this view. MR LUDIDI : This has happened in the past somewhere else, where a person is placed in the advantage of canvassing the votes of the electorate. Certainly this will influence the votes of the people and he may illegally use government transport to go and canvass for himself. (Interjections) There is absolutely no need for this. Whatever the draftsmen had in mind this is no use to democracy. We have 75 elected members, 75 chiefs . Now, why should it be necessary for the President to go outside the Assembly? We accept the fact that the President may be elected from outside the Assembly as well, but not a Minister. We request the recess committee to reconsider this and change it. M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, earlier in this House I said that Constitutions are made to be flexible and to meet certain exigencies. We must not fix our eyes on what we think will happen. We must also think of what may not happen when we want it to happen. In other words, it often happens that for the good of the State, for the good of the country itself, there is somebody who could be of use in the Cabinet and that person may not be a member of the National Assembly and a vacancy may occur in the Cabinet. The Cabinet advising the President may wish that person to come into the Cabinet and decide to have him there not permanently. If he is not voted in he will not be a member of the Cabinet and the Government, though it may have wished to have that man in the Cabinet, will just have to give it up. But in the first instance let us believe that the people you will have in the Cabinet will be the people in whom you have all confidence, the people whose interests will be to the good ofthe State. You see, in the Republican Government, for instance, you may have a man who is abroad doing ambassadorial work, and that man might prove himself while he is there that he could be of great assistance to the Government but the Government could have no way of putting him in unless there is a cavancy. MR PAMLA: Reshuffle the Cabinet. M/JUSTICE : The reshuffling of the Cabinet is not going to bring in that man who would be of use to the State. If you reshuffle you will still have the same men, but in different portfolios. This is not something which will happen every day. It will be an exceptional case. Now, the hon 309.
TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS
ambassadors overseas are generally selected from members of the Cabinet. Sometimes a Cabinet Minister is removed to a post overseas - say, to London - and it happens sometimes that he is recalled when his term of office is finished. He may have had a Cabinet post and there is a feeling that they want him back in the Cabinet. It sometimes happens that that is the sort of man who is given this privilege of three months, and that is why I say this in not altogether a new provision. MR ME DEKEDA : Mr Chairman, I stand up to second the proposal by the hon member for Ngqeleni that we say to the other side that we note what has been said. M/JUSTICE: Which is the other side? MR DEKEDA : The ordinary members not on the recess committee. CHAIRMAN : It has been moved and seconded and I don't feel there should be any other argument, therefore, when it is going to be referred to the recess committee . Motion put and agreed to.
M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman and hon members , I lay upon the table the Annual Report of the Transkeian Legal Aid Board for the year 1975/76. CORPORATIONS BILL: FIRST READING
M/FINANCE : Mr Chairman and hon members , before moving the first reading of the bill I wish to inform the House that the Minister of Finance, having been informed of the subject matter of the bill to provide for the establishment of a development corporation and other corporations, to prescribe their objections and powers, to make provision for their financing, control and management and to provide for incidental matters, recommended the bill for the consideration of the Assembly. Mr Chairman, I lay upon the table a copy of the bill and I move that the bill be read a first time. M/AGRICULTURE : I second, Mr Chairman . M/FINANCE : Seeing that our time is far spent, Mr Chairman, I wish to give the hon members only four hours to read this bill and make their observations on it. This afternoon I shall move that the bill be read a second time. Mr Chairman, this is a provision over which the Government has not had thorough consideration but we feel that the work of the corporation should go on and in the meantime we shall be studying the bill for any further amendments which may be made for October. I wish to assure the hon members that after they have gone through the bill and made observations and if they wish to make amendments these
MR LUDIDI : Mr Chairman, we still want to comment further on this section. Under subsection 18( 1 ) where the President is given power to establish departments and to appoint Ministers of State we suggest that the President in all these appointments would draw from all regions in the Transkei. M/EDUCATION : No, it must be merit. MR LUDIDI : In America the President draws Secretaries of State, which are ' . ' . M/JUSTICE: We cannot compare with America. MR LUDIDI : The President may consider the question of merit but he should draw from all the regions. MR R S MADIKIZELA : We must guard against embarrassing the Prime Minister of any country. There might be no suitable candidates, say, in Nyanda region to supply the needs of a department. On the other hand, Maluti region might have a couple. That is why we must give the Prime Minister the right to pick and choose his Ministers and place them accordingly to merit. M/JUSTICE: I may add, Mr Chairman, that once a person has been appointed as a Minister of State he is a Minister of that State, he is a Minister of Qaukeni, Maluti, Gcalekaland - of the whole State - and he has got to serve the interests of all the people of that State. If there are any interests to be served in Maluti the representative of Maluti is there to bring those matters to the notice of that particular Minister. It would therefore be wrong to say that the Ministers must be distributed according to areas irrespective of the question of qualifications and merit, we cannot compare, for instance, the Transkei with the advanced countries like America where in almost every state you meet men of merit and of high qualifications. M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, I know the decision of the House was that we adjourn at 11 o'clock, but there is a matter which I feel is of urgency in view of the fact that we shall be meeting again at 9 o'clock tomorrow. That is the matter which was referred to the recess committee, that the recess committee meets and thrashes out a certain section. In order to accommodate that I move that we adjourn now and the members of the recess committee remain to thrash out that little matter about which there was a complaint.
will be considered by the Cabinet so that in October we bring forward amendments and amend the Act accordingly. Mr Chairman, I move that the rules of the House be waived so that at 2.15 this afternoon the Minister of Finance should proceed with the second reading of the bill. CHAIRMAN : Does the House agree to the first reading? Agreed to. MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman, it is unfortunate that the Government should find itself in this awkward position and therefore place every member of this House in an equally awkward situation. In the context of the request of the hon Minister to have the second reading of this bill at 2.15 p. m, I hope that if comments are a bit sketchy and certain principles are not canvassed adequately this should not be taken by the Government as an endorsement of these principles by this House. M/FINANCE ; I accept that. MR GUZANA: I feel happy about the observation to the effect that the Government itself is still going to examine the bill when it is an Act in order to bring in any necessary amendments. Then again, we find there is such an autumn fall of leaves called bills, that the Cabinet has forgotten that it ought to lay upon the table copies of these bills in the other languages. One gets the impression that the Cabinet is unable to cope with the responsibilities falling upon it . . . . M/FINANCE : Do you want to take over? MR GUZANA : ... and we will get rid of them in September. (Laughter) But in the extraordinary circumstances which have been explained ,Mr Chairman, we will try to co-operate with the Government.
The discussion on the Draft Constitution was adjourned.
The bill was read a first time.
The Assembly adjourned until 9 a m on Friday, 14 May 1976. FRIDAY, 14 MAY 1976
CHAIRMAN : Is there a seconder to the waiving of the rules and that the bill should be read a second time this afternoon ? M/JUSTICE: Seconded, Mr Chairman.
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
Agreed to. 310.
EDUCATION AMENDMENT BILL: FIRST READING
date of this Act coming into operation if the House so approves - will have borne the responsibility personally and, through all the years, unerringly. It also signifies trust in the integrity of the Transkeian officials who have assisted the Republican Auditor-General in his task. In anticipation, Mr Chairman and honourable members, of the House passing the proposed legistalion I wish to express the Transkeian Government's greatest appreciation of the services of the Republican Auditor-General rendered to the Transkei. I am mindful also of the invaluable training his Department has given to Transkeian Officials in preparation of the transfer of repsonsibility. It s a foundation firmly and truly laid. Mr Chairman and honourable members, the Bill before you, in the main provides for the appointment of a Transkeian Auditor-General and for the duties, responsibilities and service conditions attached to his post. The various provisions conform to the corresponding provisions of the Republican Exchequer and Audit Act and need not be elaborated on further. I would therefore conclude, Mr Chairman, by moving that the Transkeian Exchequer and Audit Bill 1976 be read a second time. M/INTERIOR : I second, Mr Chairman. MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman and hon members, this is probably a consequence of the constitutional change which is taking place in the Transkei and it is logical that the Trankeian Government should have its own Auditor. General in the circumstances. On behalf of the Opposition I want to add my word of thanks and appreciation to the Auditor-General of the Republic who has discharged this duty for the last 13 years honourably, diligently and with dedication; and we commend the side development which has resulted in the training of personnel, Transkeian officials, in the intricacies of audit work. I am, however, disturbed by the fact that the hon the Minister of Finance has avoided comment on a very significant clause contained in the bill. I refer here to the principle embodied in the provisions of section 3(2) whereby, in terms of the bill, we are making legal a certain amount of secrecy relating to the auditing of certain accounts. The bill seeks to keep confidential certain accounts when it is deemed to be in the interests of the State ,and certain vouchers relating to that account and certain disbursements relating to that account will be kept confidential. Now, financial matters, particularly when they relate to public funds, must be examined in the open and must be seen to be so examined to avoid any suspicion of the manner in which funds are appropriated and disbursed. One can never say that any financial involvement of the Government in the service of the public should be enveloped in a cloud of confidential secrecy. One is persuaded to the view that a provision such as this may well be extended to keep confidential the use of funds upon which the Government may seek to avoid public scrutiny and criticism . Our concern over this clause may be eased to a considerable degree if we are advised what accounts are contemplated to be covered by this confidential audit and by the withholding of certain vouchers from the AuditorGeneral. As the hon member for Mount Ayliff said, the Auditor-General is the financial watchdog of this House. You see, once you speak of confidential accounts the mind begins to run into all sorts of speculation . We wonder whether or not funds spent on security are going to be cloaked in secrecy under this provision. I suppose this Government is considering having a mini-BOSS of its own, but I think ,in as much as the Government may feel concerned about withholding from public scrutiny its expenditure in that direction, so is this House equally concerned so that it may know whether or not the funds are expended reponsibly. You see, the Executive is merely the administrative arm of this House and how can the arm of this House hide from the rest of the body what it does ?
M/EDUCATION : Mr Chairman and hon members, I lay upon the table a copy of the bill amending the Transkeian Education Act 1966 and I move that the bill be read a first time. M/ROADS: I second.
Agreed to. M/EDUCATION : Mr Chairman, because the bill is relatively shorter than any member would expect in this House, and because the bill is non-contentious in nature and has no financial implications, I beg the leave of the House to be allowed to proceed with the second and third readings at 3 o'clock this afternoon. Mr Chairman, there are only four clauses in the bill and relatively short.
The bill was read a first time. CHAIRMAN : The Minister of Education has moved that the rules of the House be waived in order to have the second and third readings today. MR K M GUZANA: I move an amendment to this motion to include the words "or so soon thereafter" , Mr Chairman. M/EDUCATION : I agree.
Agreed to. EXCHEQUER AND AUDIT BILL: READING
SECOND
M/FINANCE : The Republican Government has adopted a new Exchequer and Audit Act (Act No, 66 of 1975) which became operative on 1 April 1976. The Act, in the main, comprises the consolidation and amendment of the Exchequer and Audit Act, (No. 23 of 1956), the General Loans Act, 1961 and a number of separate sections which have been included in Finance Acts and Financial Adjustment Acts over the years since 1910. For the rest, underlying principles of the State's financial system hitherto arranged administratively by custom and usage are given statutory authority. Amendments to existing legislation were designed to modernise and in some instances to eliminate archaic and obsolete provisions, while certain cumbersome administrative procedures are streamlined . By section 52(1) of the new Act, section 58 of the Transkei Constitution Act was amended mainly to provide that the new Act and the regulations and instructions issued thereunder will govern the administration and control of the Transkeian Revenue Fund in so far as they can be applied and are not inconsistent with the Transkei Constitution Act. The position therefore remained that the Republican Auditor-General examines and controls the Transkeian Revenue Account and miscellaneous accounts. This position, it is deemed expedient, in view of the imminent Independence, should be changed to the extent that the Transkeian Government should appoint its own Auditor-General. To this end the abovementioned Bill which has been tabled and which, by and large, is based on the provisions contained in the Republican Exchequer and Audit Act 1975 regarding the appointment of an Auditor-General for the Republic, was designed. Mr Chairman and honourable members this step has been contemplated for some time now and was seen as a further step on the road of constitutional development. It signifies the assumption of the highest responsibility in Government financial control and carries the blessing of inter alia the Republican Auditor-General who, up to the
311.
M/JUSTICE : That example is far-fetched . MR GUZANA: It is not far-fetched . I would like some comment on what is being enshrined in this bill. We have no other comment in respect of the other provisions of the bill, but we would like a little more enlightenment in respect of this clause I have mentioned. After all, this Government might place one of its Ministers in a submarine to go to Russia and hide the expenditure under this provision. M/JUSTICE: If you have confidence in the Government you don't have to know everything the Government does. MR GUZANA: This whole phrase " in the interests of the public” — I don't know whether the ignorance of the public is in the interests of the public. M/JUSTICE: Yes , it is at times. MR GUZANA : Let us not enshrine into our enactments that hackneyed saying that where ignorance is bliss it is folly to be wise. M/JUSTICE : You see, you reply to yourself. MR GUZANA : Probably I have given the reason you are going to give back to me. M /JUSTICE : Yes, you have. MR GUZANA: But we would like it to come from the hon Minister himself. MR S P BHURALI : Mr Chairman and hon members, in welcoming this bill I feel we should be failing in our duty if we do not look into the spirit behind all this. In the building up of a new nation bold steps must be taken. A bold step was taken a few years back which has placed us in a position where we can safely say we expect complete independence in October. Here we have to give our thanks to the Leader of this House for his political initiative in accepting separate development, knowing that he was leading his nation to complete independence. Many things were said at that time very similar to the things which are being saiu today. The so-called bright leadership forgot they had to compromise with a given situation. Last night we witnessed another bold step when we discussed the Constitution of Transkei. Today we are taking another bold step into the future of the economic development of the Transkei. The biggest worry in the Republic of South Africa is to see that all moneys invested in the Transkei shall be properly cared for. If we can assure the outside world that every penny invested in the Transkei shall be accounted for, we shall have done good service to the independence of this country. We shall be able to encourage the Republican Government as a guarantor to do its level best to help us in the running of this State. The worry in the outside world is governed by two factors as far as investment in these new independencies is concerned. What comes to the mind of the investor is simply this : Is my money going to be used for the economic development of the country or is it going to be channelled by buying guns and things from other areas ? If we can assure the outside world that every cent spent here shall be used for the development of the Transkei , to look after all the matters connected with the earnings of the State, we shall have done our best. The hon the Leader of the Opposition has touched on an issue which I feel I am not going to give consideration to because of certain intricacies in the legality of the bill. However, my wish is to draw the attention of this House to the fact that it is the duty of every Government not to divulge certain things to everybody, and this must not be regarded as the Government or this House not doing its duty. We don't expect the President to the United States of America would give out all the secrets of how America is run. MR K M GUZANA : No, it is the money side we are concerned about. MR BHURALI: It is the money that turns the wheels of progress. MR GUZANA: Well, let us know about it. MR BHURALI: So I feel we must say, with due regard, 312.
that it is a duty to the people when certain things at this stage are not disclosed. The time will come when an inquiry can be made and it can be answered through the proper channels. MR GUZANA: There is no provision for that. MR BHURALI : The hon the Leader of the Opposition still maintains there is no provision . This is a first step and a lot can still be done before independence. Bring a mandate from your people to look into it . I wish to say "Thank you", Mr Chairman . Another bold step has been taken. M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman and hon members, on behalf of the hon the Minister of Finance I wish to reply to the comments which were made by the hon the Leader of the Oppostion. I think to every member of this House the question of the security of the State being Priority No. 1 is agreed upon, and with that point in view it is essential that the Government must have certain secrets of State. You know, there is one thing which is always obvious and that is that human nature and human frailty will always manifest themselves at times. Even in our caucuses where we have confidence in one another we have mentioned certain things in confidence and before sunset you find those things are known far and wide. Even in this House such a tendency cannot be excluded . I am very happy that the hon the Leader of the Opposition asked a certain question and then he furnished a reply to that question . There are certain moneys or some expenditure which might be expended on certain matters which constitute a secret of the State . He spoke about a mini-BOSS for the Transkei . If at all any State is convinced and wants to ensure the safety of the State, such personnel are extremely necessary and must be there. All through the world you have the KGB, CIA and what have you, and it cannot be excluded that at a particular time it might be necessary to send somebody who must move incognito. It would not be wise then to divulge the expenditure incurred by such person. Also, we are building up an army and that army in course of time will have to be equipped. It might not be to the safety of the Transkeian State if the Governement were to divulge what armaments have been ordered and the types thereof.
MR GUZANA: It is not the type of thing, it is the money that has to be used. M/JUSTICE : It is the vouchers we are speaking of. you conceal the vouchers and the amount. When you divulge the vouchers you divulge the nature of the thing ordered. So, hon members, it is necessary for us to know that when we appoint or elect people into the Executive Council we elect people whom we trust, and if the Government should do anything which they feel the divulging thereof would not be to the safety of the State, the members must be satisfied with that, unless they have no confidence in that Government. In any event, this subsection is contained in the Act which is the basis of this Government. MR GUZANA: I want to know where the money will go.
M/JUSTICE: You will not know. Chairman.
Thank you, Mr
Put and agreed to. The bill was read a second time.
M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman and hon members, all things being abnormal, I move that this House waives its rules in order that the committee stage be proceeded with now. M/HEALTH : I second.
Agreed to.
EXCHEQUER AND AUDIT BILL : STAGE
M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, I move that this House waives its rules in order to enable this bill to be read a third time now M/EDUCATION : Isecond. 225 $11975 . 2nd tief jovemlin (197 1 1st Agreed-to. * nuo diów „ailsch 2 ~ sw_CA EXCHEQUER AND AUDIT BILL: THIRD o aroizivong 941 9'6 READING
COMMITTEE
M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman , I move that this House converts itself into a committee in order to deal with the bill.
" Agreed to. House in Committee.
་། * M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, I move that the bill be now read a third time. M/EDUCATION; V second, Mr Charman. 1 olcuqeЯ odi to insmurtovou add Agreed to. 1 12979) Wol by -6. The bill was read a third times
Clause 1 and 2 put and agreed to. On Clause 3 MRK M GUZANA : Mr Chairman, may I add this caveat to the explanation given , that it will have to be indeed thee most confidential matters which will receive the protective umbrella of subsection 3(2) in the hope that the Government will lean on this clause not too readily, lest one day it should find it has built up a Watergate for itself. (Laughter) 1576 . Thank you, Mr Chairman. M/JUSTICE : Noted. !ו Clause SVET HOY3 put and agreed to. Torelajos : ཙཾ པྟཱཿ ནྟི 9/1 Clause 4 put and agreed to. 191 JJ od abu Clau On se 5 2009 I སནྟུ ཨཝཾ ཏོ
1
MR KM GUZANA: Mr Chairman, I have information to the effect that certain departments receive donations from Certain corporations and organizations- moneys which are earmarked for a specific project. Am I correctly interpreting clause 5(iii)(b) to include these amounts ? In other words they fall under the definition of "Government moneys"? Donations from a labour corporation specifically intended to put up a stadium, for instance ; a donation! to the Department of Heatlh to establish Kupugani — do I take it that those moneys are covered .... ? M/JUSTICE : What is Kupugani ? “MR GUZANA: It is an organization which makes h available skimmed milk and so on. "M/JUSTICE: Is it not a private organization ? MR GUZANA: Yes, but the money goes to the Department of Health, for instance. MJUSTICE: Mr Chairman , if I am correct, the inter20801 pretation of this sub-clause says all other moneys whatever received or held by a head of a department or other persons for or on account of the Government of the Transkei - oh yes, it includes it because it says "other persons" . It says "by the head of a department or other persons for or on CGNI account o f .. MR GUZANA: You might get a cheque for R40 000 the head of a department for a particular public ' to th sentt to service and it must be controlled. M/JUSTICE: Yes, it happened when there was that disaster in Earsten Pondoland . I received a cheque for R600 from the Indian Community in Durban and handed it to my Secretary and it was banked …… MR GUZANA: So it must be subject to audit. M/JUSTICE: That is correct. idi 19 JO ? Clause 5 put and agreed to. d Clause 6 and 7 put and agreed to. iw Es Long title and whole bill put and agreed to.
How 15.00 J D/CHAIRMAN : Hon members of the House, I wish to report that the Transkeian Exchequer and Audit Bill 1976 has been passed by this committee without amendment.
House Resumed.
GENERAL LOANS BILL: SECOND READING 3.bamed of bsd over bluow no cub ACTING MIFINANCE M5 Chairman, honourable Paramount Chiefs and honourable members, it would be an absolute ideal situation if all government expenditure could be met,from revenue , namely current expenditure as well as capital expenditure. would, however, imply that the tax payer is prepared not only to bear the cost of day but alsof bimsel themay brunt of paying the current services of this never enjoy . which he for facilities or so ha not altogether been so I am afraid that in the past man has inclined, hence the existing system of financing capital expenditure by way of loans repayable over a period , in order that also those who would eventually benefit most directly should help bear the cost. 1Lately there has been a movement towards financing infrastructural capital works from revenue and the Republican Government has recently discarded its "Capital Loan Account" from which almost exclusively, capital works were financed . It does however not mean that loans are no longer necessary to meet Government spending In the6 case of capita capi l works which will render a return, and particularly if they will eventually pay for themselves, it remains proper to apply loans. Mr Chairman, prior to this financial year the necessity of financing Transkeian Government spending has not presented particular problems and, indeed, the raising of loans had not been considered. Consequently the Transkeian Government did not react to the Republican Government's passing legislation during 1973 empowering Bantu Governments to raise loans . The underlying principle was that Bantu Homelands, with a view to stimulation of their economic development, should participate in a larger measure in the long-term financingΠ of their development programmes, thereby. Bantu Governments , would be accorded a greater measure of independence and would actively participate in the maintenance of sound financial policy and discipline. The raising of loans would be subject to the prior approval of the Minister for Bantu Administration and Development in consultation with the Minister of Finance of the Republic on such terms and conditions, if any, as they may determine. It was, however, stillrequired of each Bantu Government to pass its own legislation in the matter. The basis on which it was suggested Bantu Governments would exercise the power to raise loans was as follows :wo(a) 5 Sources:165 I 160l bars 5 bis(1) The Treasury of the Republic ; anions(ii) directinternal loans from financial institutions or other private sources ; and bi bi(ii) offers ofloans from foreign sources which were sw wo nid be considered on an adhoc basis. I andmem sldsuonod bas nsmells R (b) Purpose for which loans may be raised Loans were to be raised essentially to defray capital expenditure in respect of the physical development 3132
of the homelands and to finance revenue -producing projects.
Thank you Mr Chairman. M/INTERIOR : I second, Mr Chairman. MR K M GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, obviously now we have come to the time of reckoning in matters financial. It has always been a point that has been canvassed by the Opposition that at some stage or another the Republican Governemnt will get this baby off its back and call upon it to walk its own path unassisted, and we have always had reservations as to the financial ability of the Government to meet such a situation, regard being had to the fact that the Republican Government is not only giving birth to one child ,but has to give birth to about nine children or so, and each one protesting vigorously for succour by crying out for more and more subsidies from the Republican Government. My only regret is that right at the begining of independence we should be obliged to raise a loan. Probably the circumstances which have forced upon us that situation are beyond our control . I refer here to inflation and scarcity of funds. Well, Sir, you have been apologetic over the word "Bantu" Governments, so I don't know what to call them. I think we could easily say they are just budding Governments, rather than call them "Bantu". I appreciate your position because you have had to use this term in view of the legislation in the Republic. You have indicated the various sources from which loans may be obtained, and I would like to interpret the phrase "direct internal loans" to include loans which may be raised in the Republic but not necessarily from the Treasury of the Republic. In other words, the economic link should be maintained so long as we find we are opening up financial rivulets which are going to irrigate the Transkei economically in establishing infrastructure and income-producing projects. In my own mind I am sure the Republican Govermnen! would not be averse to a Government such as this approach. ing a private financial institution in the Republic for loans. I am happy to state our gratitude to the Republican Government for undertaking not only to subsidize repayment of the interest, but also of the capital loan. M/JUSTICE : To guarantee. MR GUZANA: Well, Sir, under Conditions you have made reference to the Republican Government partially bearing the loan either in the form of low interest rates in the case of loans provided by the Treasury, or by the subsidization of interest and redemption. I think this is a very generous gesture and that we should take advantage of it responsibly. We must not extravagantly seek to raise loans just because we have a strong economic guarantor. Then you have included under (e) this statement : "The total amount of loans raised in any one year should not exceed one-fifth of the amount to which the total debt is restricted." I would ask the Acting Minister of Finance just to spell out the idea in that sentence. Then, Sir, in looking at the bill I am heartened by the fact that the hon the Minister of Finance will be obliged to keep the House informed of the financial loans involvement of this Government by tabling a report on all loans made by the Government in any given period of twelve months. Under section 5(b) you have listed there the headings under which a special report shall be submitted to this House and, whilst provision is made under that section for this report to state the total loan liability of the Government at the conclusion of the loan, I would be very happy if such report were also to include an item relating to the expected period of redemption of the loan and interest. Then I must say it would be a very happy Government indeed if it were not burdened with loans at any time. Whilst loans involvement is unavoidable in the present circumstances, it is my hope that this Government will so invest moneys in income-producing projects that we reduce our loans indebtedness progressively, and related to this effort is the need for stimulating the production' of exportable produce so that there might be a situation where conditions attaching to the loan may indicate
(Hon members must not take offence at the use of the word "Bantu". It is very offensive, but it has nevertheless to be used because we are dealing with the Republican Act.) MR K M GUZANA : No, we are dealing with our own Act. ACTG_M/FINANCE : But these are the provisions of the Republican Act . (c) Conditions The debt of the Bantu Governments would be partially borne by the Government of the Republic either in the form of low interest rates in the case of loans provided by the Treasury or by the subsidisation of interest and redemption on the various other types of loans. (d) Guarantees Statutory provision would have had to be made for loans to be raised from sources other than the Treasury of the Republic should such loans have to be guaranteed by the Treasury. (e) Limitation of total debt and the amount of annual loans. In the interest of sound financial policy and to obviate the retardation of economic growth resulting from excessive loan liabilities, it is deemed necessary that the total debt of a Bantu Government should at no time exceed the total income from normal "own" sources or revenue (i.e. excluding loans, gifts and additional appropriations from State Revenue Fund). The total amount of loans raised in any year should no exceed one-fifth of the amount to which the total debt is restricted.
As I have already indicated, it was deemed appropriate at the time that the matter be left in abeyance. However, in view of the anticipated shortfall of almost R15 million for 1976/77 and as an offer of a short-term loan from foreign sources has been received to meet the shortfall, it has become imperative that legislation be passed empowering my Government to raise loans. The Bill which has been tabled is unsophisticated but contains all the necessary provisions in order to comply with the requirements of the Republican authorities and also to keep the House fully informed of the loan liability of the Government from year to year. Mr Chairman , the House has exhaustively discussed the loans aspect during the Second Reading debate on the Budget. Certain fears and reservations were aired, but these, I believe, have been satisfactorily replied to. Mr Chairman , I cannot visualise a man jumping for safety from an aeroplane with a parachute with no strings attached . Similarly any loan will have its terms and conditions. May I assure the House that the small print will in the case of each loan and for obvious reasons be thoroughly studied before committing the Transkei . Mr Chairman and honourable members, in my Budget Speech I remarked on the significance of an offer of a loan from a foreign source. I have subsequently also advised the House that it was not expedient at this stage to disclose particulars regarding the offered loan. I can, however, now assure you that the Republican Treasury has intimated that it approves in principle of the loan and the guaranteeing thereof. This, Mr Chairman and honourable members, has the further significance of confirming more emphatically that the Republic of South Africa, too has faith in our future. On this note, Mr Chairman and honourable members, I move that the Transkeian General Loans Bill 1976 be read
a second time. 314.
for their very constructive comments and to assure them that the Government of Transkei will do nothing that will be detrimental to the interests of the people of Transkei and to Transkei as a whole . This is a double assurance on the assurance which is provided under the second reading speech, and I quote : "May I assure this House that the small print will in the case of each loan and for obvious reasons be thoroughly studied before committing the Transkei." You know, conditions are usually in small print and the tendency of the contracting parties is not to scrutinize that small print , and that is just where the bitter pill may be hidden. Now, with regard to the comment by the hon the Leader of the Opposition in connection with (e), as you will readily see, the limitations or restrictions imposed under (e) .... (Read section) MR GUZANA : In other words , if own resources are R1 000, a loan should not exceed R200? ACTG M/FINANCE : That is right. In any event I may advise this House I am informed that we shall make our own arrangements. There was a disagreement on this clause, but that was the Republican stipulation. With those few words, Mr Chairman, I move that this bill be read a second time. M/INTERIOR : I second .
that a certain amount of money having been lent to the Transkeian Government, the Transkeian Government in turn will repay this loan by exporting so many bags of mealies a year over a certain period to that country In this way we may be able to keep in our control and in our possession cash purchasing power as against trade barter to offset financial indebtedness to foregin countries . On a lighter note, Sir, you have referred to the man who wants to jump from an aeroplane with a parachute with no strings . Well, you almost did that, but for the loan of R15 million -odd. Had that amount been available to this Government you would have done just the sort of foolish thing that man intended to do. We would have jumped into independence with a deficit and however much we might accept the principle of budgeting for a deficit we certainly do not welcome it when we put the first foot forward . Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR S P BHURALI : Mr Chairman and hon members, I want to support the view that these loans must be scrutinized very strongly. While we welcome the new era that the finances of our State must of necessity be supported by loans, we must however not overlook a simple fact . When people borrow money they do not want to sell freedom. I will quote instances where big corporations have caused a lot of trouble. I will start at the time of Oom Paul Kruger. Here is the case of a man who has struggled for an Afrikaans Republic and there came the time of the discovery of diamonds and gold in South Afrika . When he wanted to scrutinize the investment that was to take place the ultimate end was the Anglo-Boer War. He was not against investments. He wanted these investments not to retard the He had just come out of the progress of the Afrikaner. Great Trek and wanted his nation to have the benefit of these struggles. He was misunderstood . The very people he wanted to make rich had to face the Anglo-Boer War and from that time the Afrikaner had to turn another page and struggle for the freedom which was just at hand. We are very proud of our Transkei . We are equally proud of the fact that out of poverty we have attained the standard we have reached. Oppression has not been able to destroy the black man in America and in Africa because he had learnt to share the bit of bread he had . We don't want to welcome a programme that is going to buy our rights. We should be able to borrow these moneys and be able to pay these moneys . I will quote an instance here where Malawi was built by South African funds at 3 % and where the XDC is collectiong from people of South Africa almost 8%. I understand it has been further increased. We have to bear in mind that such big corporations as the Oppenheimer groups and others can buy our Republic . We have to really scrutinize this to put our people on the threshold of save progress. In America big corporations are a problem to the administration of justice . To be a President in America you must be backed up by these big corporations and that is always done at a price. The present trouble in Rhodesia resulted from British investments during the time of Cecil John Rhodes . Poor Chief Lobengula, not knowing the value of money and interested in that White and Black must live safely, did not realise the schemes of Cecil Rhodes. Today, as a result of that big concern, the whole of Rhodesia was sold to big business. Africans must die today to but back their land. I do not want a situation like that arising in our Republic . We must be very careful about investments. The great Xhosa prophet said a nation would come Be careful of batter. That barter is full of trickery. Let us be careful when we get to the question of money. Although we want money it will sell our freedom unless we open our eyes . I am happy that I now have been able to advise Administration that we must really be circumspect. Some dangers come, but quietly. Thank you , Mr Chairman. ACTG M/FINANCE : Mr Chairman and hon members, may I take this opportunity to thank the two commentators
Agreed to. The bill was read a second time. ACTG M/FINANCE : Mr Chairman, I move that this House waives its rules in order to enable me to go on with the committee stage of this bill now. M/HEALTH : I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. GENERAL LOANS BILL:
COMMITTEE STAGE
ACTG M/FINANCE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I move that this House converts itself into committee in order to consider this bill. M/HEALTH : Seconded , Mr Chairman. House in Committee
Clause 1 put and agreed to. On Clause 2 MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman , subsection 2(b) seems to provide for a situation where the revenue fund might be low in funds and a loan is raised in order to keep the funds in credit . May I know if a loan for that specific purpose would be one that would be described as a soft loan or with a low rate of interest? I assume the main objective in raising loans is to invest them in providing infrastructure and establishing revenue-producing projects. Section 2(b) seems to seek the balancing of the Transkeain Revenue Fund and it means the money lies there, probably just accumulating interest. ACTG M/FINANCE : I, not being an economist , do not know what soft and hard loans are. However, the explanation for that section is as follows : It could occur that unforeseen expenditure has to be met in respect of which a special warrant may be issued in terms of section 55 of the Constitution Act. In such event it may be necessary to raise a loan to maintain a credit balance in the Exchequer, as you said.
Clause 2 put and agreed to. Clauses 3 and 4 put and agreed to. 315 .
On Clause 5
appear in the clauses of the draft Act, Clause 1 amends section 1 of the principal Act as amended by section 1 of Act No. 5 of 1971 for the following reasons (a) the introduction of the new education structure in schools last year has necessitated that changes should be e.g., secondary made in the definition of certain words schools now start from the fifth standard up to and including the tenth standard and may be either junior or senior secondary schools. In such schools clauses are now no longer termed as "Forms" but are called "Standards". A junior secondary school begins from the fifth standard and ends at the seventh standard, whereas the senior secondary schools commence from the eighth standard and ends at the tenth standard. This new system is in line with that which obtains in the rest of the Republic of South Africa ; and (b) the words "village management board" in the definition of the "local authority" have been deleted as such bodies are now known as village local committees under the control of the Transkeian Townships Board. The amendment is therefore a consequential one. Clause 2 amends section 3 of the principal Act by deleting the words " high schools" in paragraph (a) of subsection(1 ) as these words are not used any more.
ACTG M/FINANCE : With the promise that the remarks made by the hon the Leader of the Opposition will be taken into consideration I move the adoption of this clause. Clause 5 put and agreed to. Clauses 6 and 7 put and agreed to. Long title and whole bill put and agreed to. House Resumed D/CHAIRMAN: Hon members, I wish to report that the Transkeian General Loans Bill 1976 was passed by the committee without amendment. ACTG M/FINANCE : Mr Chairman, I move that this House waives its rules in order to enable me to move the third reading of this bill now. M/EDUCATION : I second. Agreed to. GENERAL LOANS BILL: THIRD READING
The amendment is also of consequential nature. Clause 3 amends section 12 of the principal Act to enable the department to second its teachers to the service of the Government of the Republic of South Africa or any board, institution or body established by law of the Transkei or the Republic of South Africa when it is deemed to be of the best advantage to the department to do soe.g., it may be necessary to second certain teachers to Church schools like St Theresa's Home Economics School, Umtata, in order to get better qualified teachers in the Homecraft Course from that school, or to ensure better tuition to the teacher trainees. At the moment it is the Government of the Republic of South Africa which has to render such services to the department.
ACTG M /FINANCE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I move that the Transkeian General Loans Bill 1976 be read a third time. M/EDUCATION : I second , Mr Chairman. Agreed to. The bill was read a third time. M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman and hon members, before we resume discussion on the draft Constitution , I feel that this House will agree with me that we are here meeting rather an undesirable situation and I do not think the minds of hon members, including myself, are such that we can be able to skip from one thing to another all the time . I do feel that where possible we must have some continuation . For that reason, Mr Chairman, I have consulted with my colleague, the hon the Minister of Education, to find out whether he would not be able to carry on with his bill now so that we more or less carry on with bills and then this afternoon have a continuation of the discussion on the draft Constitution. Could the Chairman, with the leave of the House, not ask the hon the Minister of Education whether he cannot ask for the revision of the waiving of the rules in order to enable him to carry on with the second reading of this bill now instead of this afternoon ? Agreed to.
Clause 3A amends section 13 of the principal Act for the following reasons :(a) (i) The Transkei is the only homeland in the Republic of South Africa that retires its departmental officials at sixty years. All the other homelands and the rest of the Republic of South Africa retire their departmental officials at the age of 65 years. (ii) These days a span of life has improved considerably even with Africans. At 60 years the man is still strong and capable of working, and production has not yet declined. Throwing away a man who is experienced and mature at that age does not seem to be reasonable, unless his health has declined and he will have a right to apply for sick pension. Even in the Transkei, in actual fact most departmental officials go beyond 60 years in their service by application , but his status changes and he no longer contributes to the pension fund but is taken as a temporary official .
M/EDUCATION : Mr Chairman, I move that I should te allowed by this House to have the rules waived so that I proceed with the second reading of the Education Amendment Bill. It will be noted that I was supposed to be speaking on the bill this afternoon at 3 o'clock. In the light of the information given by the hon the Minister of Justice I propose that I deal with the bill now, if the Chairman will allow me the right to do so. M/INTERIOR : I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. EDUCATION AMENDMENT BILL : ING
(b) The effect of the amendment of this clause is also the raising of the minimum retiring age from 55 to 60 years. In all government service a man requiring to retire earlier is always allowed five years ealier according to his circumstances, so that he can retire without losing his benefits as he would normally do when he retires early. Finally, Mr Chairman, Clause 4 contains the short title of the Act. I have no doubt that this bill will receive the wholehearted support of all hon members of this House as it will bring the principal Act into line with the rest of the Republic of South Africa. I therefore move that the bill be read a second time.
SECOND READ-
M/EDUCATION : Mr Chairman , honourable paramount chiefs and honourable members, I have already indicated to the House that this bill is of a simple nature and I will now elucidate the various amendments as they 316.
M/INTERIOR: I second, Mr Chairman. MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman and hon members, the hon the Minister of Education need not be apprehensive about my comments. We have always treated education as a subject above party politics. Clause 3 is very significant here in that it allows this department officially to second our men to educational centres and institutions in the Republic with a view to making the teacher more efficient in his job. This is going to help us out whilst we have not as yet established a central in-service training centre, amongst other things. Thus for instance a tecaher in a teachertraining college of the University of Fort Hare, Rhodes or any other university; and in turn we can get highly qualified personnel to be seconded to our department in the schools. If we are honest enough to ourselves to admit that we are at a disadvantage in terms of teaching personnel now, we would urge the department to take advantage of this amendment right away. You could not have done education in the Transkei more good than bringing this amendment in clause 3. The rest ofthe amendments seem to be consequential from the introduction of the new structure. Although I do not know if the Transkei Townships Board is a permanent institution because the Transkei Townships Board is merely a holding institution which is going to pass on its functions to other bodies to be established on independance, and it may well happen that the Government may revert to such terms as village management boards. M/EDUCATION : The Townships Board will be superseded by the Department of Local Government. MR GUZANA: Yes, it could be, and then you will have to come here again with another tiny, puny, pygmysized amendment. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR KG NOTA : Mr Chairman and hon members, though I do not want to quarrel with the hon the Minister of Education it is quite surprising that we are confronted with a bill without any notes accompanying the bill. M/INTERIOR : They are there. MR NOTA: However, I am going to comment on this, He is speaking of seconding officials of the Transkei to the Republican Government. I take it that the Transkeian Government will pay those officials in the service of the Republican Government as is the case with the seconded officials from the Republican Government . . . .. MR K M GUZANA: You don't know the trick behind that.
standards . It used to be embarrassing to us as students in forms. You meet a white fellow-student, let us say in Queenstown where I stay, you chat about things and in the course of your chat he asks you what standard you are doing this year. Now, you tell him you are doing Form 1. You look at this chap and he looks puzzled because he does not know what this form is until you labour and go into details, explaining what this form would be in their system of education . This used to cause me a lot of embarrassment. I am really pleased, Mr Chairman , that the system of education in the Transkei has been so changed as to do away with this form system. Coming to the twelve-year structure in education , for an African child to pass his matric he had to labour for 13 years. This extra 13th year, as we see it today, was an extra year for no extra knowledge gained whatsoever . I do not know what the purpose was behind this scheme when all other education systems in other parts of the world never had such an extra year. The Transkei has therefore come to the redemption of our people in that it has saved time and money, and to the Transkeian Education Department we say "Bravo!" . Passing on to the secondment of teachers to the Republic of South Africa, we hope this will bring about a multiplicity of benefits to our seconded teachers to the Republic of South Africa. We know very well that we have been having white seconded officials in our midst for a number of years, and the first thing that came to my mind when it was read by the hon Minister was that our African people would now have some extra benefits which were never extended to them before. We know of the inconvenience allowances paid to white seconded officials, which in effect meant that by being seconded to the homelands they were being inconvenienced . In what manner, really? (Laughter) That makes my mind boggle. Whether it was perhaps that they could be contaminated by our colour, I don't know, or our smell - I don't know. I really could not get the real reason of this inconvenience allowance up to now. We hope, therefore , that our teachers seconded to the Republican Government will be paid this inconvenience allowance because they will be inconvenienced by being amongst the Whites. It cuts both ways. MR H PAMLA: And a bilingual allowance. MR TEZAPI : Yes, as well as a bilingual allowance. Well, it has been explained in full that they will benefit by way of gaining more knowledge by contact with their white counterparts. That we quite appreciate. Coming to my fourth and last point, I am sure teachers are particularly pleased about the raising of the pensionable age from 60 to 65 in the case of males, and from 55 to 60 in the case of females. There are some peolpe whose physical constitution is very strong. At 60 you can hardly believe they are 60, and it has been very unfair for a man to be denied the chance to earn a living whilst he is still capable. I am sure, therefore the teachers will appreciate the coming about of this Act. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR ME DEKEDA: Mr Chairman and hon members, Istand up to thank the Department of Education for realising this point. I firmly believe that this system of raising the pensionable age of our teachers is long overdue, because all the teachers in the other provinces of the Republic have already had the pensionable age raised to 65 for males and 60 for females. It is customary amongst our people that a man gives his best when he is old. It has been very pathetic for these teachers who are pensioned at 60 and 65 whilst they are still producing their best. I have known of some schools which were being administered and managed by elderly teachers and once these teachers are pensioned at 60 a young man has been appointed to that school. Two lady teachers from my district who were pensioned at 55 removed to the Western Cape and they were employed there as teachers.. It was hardly two years before those teachers were promoted as principals of schools in the Western Cape
MR NOTA : I know it. MR GUZANA: We are paying them ourselves. MR NOTA: . . . . but the tendency is that the seconded official tends not to be responsible to that particular Government which they are serving at the time, because those officials working in that particular government service continue to receive circulars from their own Government whilst they are working for another Government and it places the Government for which they are working at the time in an embarrassing situation. Which loyalty will these officials have? Will it be loyalty to the Republic or to the Transkeian Government? We would like some clarity on that. M/EDUCATION: I don't think there is any need really for clarification on this point. If the department which is being served by the official concerned is in any doubt about the loyalty of the officer, it is as easy as ABC to say he can be released. In addition, the department concerned will be strictly selective in negotiating with the Republican Government about the seconded official, so that will be the position, Mr Chairman. MR D TEZAPI : Mr Chairman and hon members, it gives one much pleasure to comment on a bill of this nature because a bill of this nature denotes some progress in so far as our Transkei is concerned , and nobody can deny that. I am particularly pleased about the change from forms to 317.
because of their good work and understanding of children. As I said from the start we thank the department for placing this system of pensioning teachers on the statute book. I will say one thing on this twelve-year structure system. Here again we are glad that the department has realised that our people are now cultured . Whilst I was a young teacher we put this question to one European inspector of long ago as to why we had this class between Std 6 and what was called JC. His reply was that the children who passed Std 6 in those days were so rude, rough, uncultured and uncouth that they could not be promoted to the standard of Form 3. In other words, these children were being groomed for the higher standards. Mr Chairman, we are glad that our department has seen to it that those days have gone. The days of the small child have gone. If you go to schools in the rural areas you will find that the children are cultured right from Sub A. You go to the infant department in the rural schools and you hear how children have managed to speak the official languages . In two weeks from the time the children go to school these days you find them saying "window, door, dog" and so on. May I remind some of the hon members here that when I went to Lovedale for the first time I could hardly say one word of English. The hon Leader ofthe Opposition was telling me it was because I was thick in the head. MR GUZANA : No, I was saying it is because I was responsible for what you have learnt. MR DEKEDA : Mr Chairman, let us not delay the House, but agree to this bill. MR S P BHURALI : Mr Chairman and hon members, a country without well-educated people will always be a slave. I have noted with keen interest during the reading of the policy speeches that nearly all the hon Ministers complained about staff shortages, lack of well-trained people and so on, and I saw red. Now I am beginning to see the green light. Our people have been done a lot of damage through the introduction of the Bantu Education system and we have no way out of it. We are now going to be faced with a period of reconstruction to correct the minds of so many people who got so little out of the system. It is a shame that this system has not worked according to a plan of upliftment as far as we are concerned . Perhaps it has helped that side which wanted to delay the progress of the black man. I am happy now that we are going to accelerate that progress. I am particularly happy that the department is going to have Bensonvale and St Theresa pioneering this system of education. These are old establishments with a fine record and I am sure these schools will not fail the Department of Education. However, I have a little worry about such institutions as Bensonvale which are under Methodist control. MR H PAMLA: We are taking them all over. MR BHURALI: We are faced with a sad situation where most of the strikes which have taken place in the Transkei have unhappily happened in this Protestant institution and I want to say openly I doubt the management in those institutions as far as the religious clerics are concerned . There is a tendency amongst these supervisors to enrich themselves at the expense of the poor African child . We can quote a list of ministers who have got their sons through university at the expense of the ordinary man. We can equally quote instances of these ministers having bought farms out of the proceeds of these ordinary children. However, I only hope the Department of Education will work hand in hand with the Department of Agriculture to provide land for such colleges as St Theresa. I know St Theresa to be short of land, Mr Minister of Education . Give this college some more land and you will not be surprised at the results forthcoming. I have dealt with the damage by the Bantu Education system and I would like now to know what is the attitude of the department regarding white schools in the Transkei. Will they continue here und r their own syst-
system separately from your system, or will Transkeian citizens be allowed to go to those schools if they feel like doing so? I would be very happy if this House is put clear on that issue. We have no fear about any African c ldren sitting side by side with white children in those schools. Fortunately, we were brought up in the old system of education where we wrote subjects such as Latin with white boys, and black boys made the grade.Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR H PAMLA : Mr Chairman and hon members, I was not prepared to make any comment on this bill, but I have been touched by the latter remarks of the last speaker and I feel I should also make a contribution. He has referred to the attitude of our department towards white schools in the Transkei and I feel this is a very appropriate question at this juncture when we are just on the threshold of independence. I would like to say that a few white people in my area who are interested in remaining as Transkeians have this very same difficulty in making their decision. They are worried about the apparent low standards in our schools and they feel it would be a risk to take their children to our schools while the standard is still what it is now. This is also the same problem of all our Coloured people who want to remain as Transkeians . We therefore welcome this bill, Mr Minister, that has improved the lot of the teachers in our schools. We do hope that after independence you will come forward with a bill that will completely change the whole philosophy of education in the Transkei . We are very worried about this attachment to Pretoria, especially in so far as examinations are concerned , where those bodies lay conditions which make it rather difficult for our children to go through matric. If we were to take statistics of casualties at matric level it would be very alarming, and if you continue to improve the lot of our people so far as education is conwe will make it a cerned I can give you this assurance point to keep you there. (Laughter) Thank you, Mr Chairman . The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION The debate on the Second Reading of the Education Amendment Bill was resumed. * M/EDUCATION : Mr Chairman and hon members, I must say from the onset that I was impressed immeasurably by the contributions made by the hon members in discussing the contents of my bill, and I have been expected to reply to some pertinent questions put to me by some of the hon members, one of which is what is going to happen to white schools in the Transkei when Transkei becomes independent. I want to assure this House that we believe in the rights of the individual in the Transkei and we are creating a new society where everybody in the Transkei must feel free as long as that freedom does not interfere with the freedom of other people. That being the case, the existence of white schools in the Transkei will not be a problem of my department and of my Government. We witnessed an unfortunate event in American politics when, because ofthe over-enthusiasm of some people in their bid to have integration, the Government authorities in the schools tried to enforce integration . There is no dispute about the fact that Transkei will not countenance the idea of discrimination in our society. Our approach, therefore, to the existence of the white schools in Transkei is going to be purely democratic. Whatsoever integration is likely to take place it will be gradual and we believe that is inevitable. Already the Government of the Transkei never had to force the Whites in Transkei, and in Umtata ' particularly, that they must allow library facilities for everybody, but it is taking place. In the Transkei the proprietors of hotels at the moment were never forced to allow non-Whites to have meals there, but now and again you see we are allowed to go there. Similarly,
318.
I think the question of white schools is no exception . Actually, this is what is going to happen in Transkei after independence. If there are going to be Whites in the Transkei who refuse our children in their schools or any Blacks refuse white children to attend their schools, what will happen if there will be Whites coming from America or anywhere who will come to our schools, and also to teach ? In fact, we have them already who want to teach in black schools and we are encouraging them. Funnily enough, these teachers have told us they are prepared to assist black teachers, and not only in urban areas but also in rural schools I have lots of applications coming from white teachers who tell us they want to come to the Transkei to serve this country, so whatever integration there is, if there will be any, will be purely voluntary. There will be no enactment of a law that such intergration must take place against the wishes of the individual. I think that is democratic. MR R S MADIKIZELA : (Inaudible question) M/EDUCATION : No, but we know that integration is unavoidable. Mr Chariman , someone asked me what we are going about our examination system which at the moment is controlled from Pretoria. We know for a fact that if we are going to be independent we must have correspondingly an independent system of examinations. The fact is that already negotiations are being carried out by my department with the authorities in Pretoria in this regard, but it must be understood by the hon members that this thing is not going to take place overnight . There will be some preparation by the Department of Education before this ideal is achieved . Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Agreed to.
The bill was read a third time. CORPORATIONS BILL: SECOND READING ACTG M/FINANCE : Mr Chairman, honourable paramount chiefs, honourable members, the Xhosa Development Corporation and its successor the Transkeian Develepment Corporation were both constituted in terms of an Act of the Republic of South Africa, namely the Promotion of the Development of the Africa Homelands Act 1968 (Act 46 of 1968). The Transkeian Development Corporation is thus, although the Transkei has a say in the appointment of the Board of Directors, in its entirety a Sotuh African body constituted in terms of South African legislation . It is therefore essential that legislation be passed by this Assembly that will enable the Transkei to take over the Transkeian Development Corporation on or soon after the Transkei's independence. Furthermore, honourable members will have noticed in the press that the Cabinet recently resolved that a Transkei Airways Corporation be established. In this instance, too, there is at present no legislation to provide for the establishment of such an Airways Corporation. Mr Chairman, the purpose of this Bill is therefore two-fold. Firstly it provides for the complete takeover of the present Transkei Development Corporation ; and secondly for the establishment of other corporations such as the proposed Airways Corporation. The Bill is based on existing South African legislation and the principles involved are thus well tried and thoroughly proven. Funds for taking shares in the development corporation and other corporations will have to be voted by this Assembly It will, however, also be possible to apply funds from the Transkeian Development and Reserve Fund for this purpose. It should be noted that in terms of the proposed legislation only the Government may hold shares in the Development Corporation and only the Government and the Development Corporation may hold shares in a corporation. Furthermore members of this Assembly will not be eligible for directorships of the boards of the Development Corporation or corporations. The X.D.C. and its successor the Transkeian Develop,ment Corporation have done and are doing commendable work in developing the Transkei in all the spheres of business activity. For this I thank them but without being in any way ungrateful for what they have achieved the Transkei has reached the point where, as behoves an independent country, it must make provision for controlling all governmental activities within its borders. When the Transkei takes over the T.D.C. every attempt will be made to build on its achievements and to reach even greater heights. In providing for the establishment of corporations, the principle is that where projects are undertaken by the Government that are either very large or very specialised or both, it should be possible to establish them as a separate government business. Mr Chairman, the advantages of such a course of action are mainly that a specialised orgnisation will normally produce better results and that when such corporation stands alone its profitability or otherwise will be obvious. These advantages are, in the Transkeian situation, of particular import. Due to the limitation of development funds it should be a basic tenet of our development policy to concentrate on revenue generating projects. The provision in this Bill for instituting separate corporations will make this possible. I expect much of the Transkeian corporations that will be established in terms of this legislation and am sure that they will contribute greatly to the Transkei's development.
Put and agreed to. The bill was read a second time. M/EDUCATION : Mr Chairman, once more I would ask the House to waive the rules so that I may be permitted to proceed with the committee stage right now. M/ROADS : I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to.
EDUCATION AMENDMENT BILL: COMMITTEE STAGE M/EDUCATION : Mr Chairman, I move that this House be converted into a committee.
Agreed to. House in Committee Clause 1 to 4 put and agreed to. Long title put and agreed to.
House Resumed D/CHAIRMAN : Mr Chairman, I wish to report that the Education Amendment Bill 1976 has been passed by the committee without amendment . M/EDUCATION : Mr Chairman , I would crave the indulgence of the House that the standing rules be waived so that I proceed with the third reading of the bill now. M/ROADS: I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. EDUCATION AMENDMENT BILL: THIRD READING M/EDUCATION : Mr Chairman and hon members, I move that the bill be read a third time. M/ROADS : I second.
319.
restraints. We are not interested in developing the Transkei for a particular race group ; we are interested in developing the Transkei , fullstop. Once you have done that, everbody comes and feeds. Therefore, Sir, whilst we will not oppose this bill we do stress these reservations in relation to the etablishment of corporations. This Government will have to get this TDC to involve itself in agricultural and pastoral programmes as a priority and, in doing so, it might assist the Department of Education in the establishment of these not so much in ploughing but in the agricultural schools training of people to acquire techniques in agriculture. We would like the TDC to be related to something which the people already have and motivate them into exploiting those assets intensively and to their advantage . I certainly will not say we have passed a landmark, very much like the hon member for Herschel . All we will say at this stage is that we shall stand and look to see what benefit filters down to
Mr Chairman, I now move that the Transkeian Corporations Bill 1976 be read a second time. M/HEALTH : 1 second, Mr Chairman. MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman and hon members, now I think this Government is taking a mean advantage of these late sessions. In a moment of sluggish inactivity as a result of insufficient sleep they slip in these bills which are long and complicated, such as this one. (Laughter) If we should react with a bit of gall , therefore, they should not blame us. It has been accepted in all underdeveloped countries that development must be initiated by government involvement in providing infrastructure, in setting up industries and factories and motivating under its control the establishment of large business concerns. This is not the best that should happen, but it is inevitable because the consequence of a statutory body involving itself deeply in investment and industrial development is that all income producing projects belong to, or are run by and are in the control ofthe statutory body, and this Government indirectly through the statutory body has a stranglehold on the economic development of the country. The end result is that which we find when a Government nationalizes industries and factories in a country. This is something against which we have to guard so that this strong financial body does not throttle private enterprise and push it to destruction or failure, because private enterprise has not the financial resources that are open to a corporation such as this Transkei Development Corporation. Let us not continue subscrib❤ ing to the fallacy that corporations such as the Transkei Corporation are holding these factories and industries in trust for Transkeian citizens who are wage-earners or salaryearners and can never at any time collect sufficient capital to buy over these factories. The Transkei Development Corporation is in fact the offspring of the Xhosa Development Corporation a body which has been subjected to a lot of criticism during its lifetime and its operation in the Transkei. Firstly, there was the criticism to the effect that its interest rates were high. This was modified when the XDC charged a considerably reduced rate of interest if the loan was repaid within the timespan of the agreement. I believe that when the Government seeks to develop the country economically through a statutory body such as the TDC it should not, as a duty to the people it seeks to awaken economically, charge a high rate of interest equivalent to that charged by public or private financial institutions.
the people from these corporations. MR H PAMLA: Why say you will stand and look, instead of acting? MR GUZANA: I have been kept out of it. I cannot even get shares in this corporation. You have kept me out of it and say I have got to stand and stare . If you read the policy speech that is just what it means. I cannot do anything. Last but not least, Sir, let us never forget the fact that whilst the trappings of an independent State may become attractive to the eye for admira tion, the most important thing is to be involved in what will build up the economic structure of the country. ACTG M/FINAMCE : This is just the thing. It is a move in the right direction. MR GUZANA: The hon Minister says this is just the right thing. ACTG M/FINANCE : Do you say it is the wrong thing? MR GUZANA: I don't want to say it is the wrong thing because I have told this House that inevitably such a corporation is necessary to give a kick-off to our budding economic development . ACTG M/FINANCE : And anything relevant is a move in the right direction. MR GUZANA: What I don't agree with is the monopolistic provisions which tend to protect these statutory bodies. ACTG M/FINANCE : Do you see any here? MR GUZANA: I do see them . It is a body which is just about everything that can act before the law courts. It is going to substitute for the XDC in terms of the zoning proclamation, so it is protected. ACTG M/FINANCE : Correct. Does it mean that your son is like you ? Your son may be different from you. MR GUZANA: This is just what I am warning against. Let us have a son who is better than the father. GVT MEMBERS : That's right. MR GUZANA : Lastly, I would like to insist upon the TDC and any other corporation established by the Government tabling its report in this Assembly for study. ACTG M/FINANCE : It is provided. MR GUZANA: Now, its father was unlike that. ACTG - M/FINANCE : It was. You had the workings of the XDC published . Whether it was bad or not, its workings were published. MR GUZANA : They need not have been published I felt its heavy iron heel on my neck everywhere .... ACTG M/FINANCE : It is the publication of the activities I am talking about. MR GUZANA : so that its activities publicized it. What we want is that the TDC should report here and give us the balance sheet and the profit and loss account and its trading account. In the Republican parliament the BIC merely gave an outline and it was impossible to scrutinize its financial activities. Here we need a realistic report which will give us an isnight into its operations.
Actually, it is not operating in highly industrialized society but in an underdeveloped community, and therefore it must assist the budding industrialist, the budding trader, the budding entrepreneur amongst the citizens of that country to grow without being burdened by a commercially competitive rate of interest. Furthermore, I do hope that the Transkei Development Corporation will not have an exclusive monopoly over loans and mortgages in respect of financial activities of Transkeian citizens, as is the case by virtue of the zoning proclamation. In this context I would like other money-lending institutions with which Transkeian citizens have invested sums of money, either by way of savings or fixed deposits, to be in this loans market to make their funds available to Transkeian citizens for development. May I give an example of the difficulties inherent in this financial field. Some of the banks which are operating in the Transkei have committed themselves to a programme of assisting their personnel who have been promoted to high ranks of responsibility in the bank to buy, or assist them in putting up, homes decent enough to house a bank teller, a bank accountant, but because of the limitations such a bank cannot lend out to its own employee an amount of R15 000, R20 000, without security or without the acquisition of some proprietary rights over that immovable property to guarantee a refund of the loan. I hope this Government is going to take an open view and a liberal view on this matter of financial flexibility, without any ideological 320.
with the TDC, which is a child of the XDC but Transkeian controlled, we are pleased that it will now be controlled locally. We hope this corporation will work smoothly if the aims are as noble as those expressed in the second reading speech. As the hon member for Mount Ayliff pointed out when the head office of the XDC was in East London it caused a great deal of inconvenience . We are happy now that the corporation is a local institution and that control will vest in this House of Assembly; also that the directors of the corporation will be directly under this Government. May I ask if there will be any Africans in the membership. ACTG M/FINANCE : Look at your copy. Almost all of them . MR JAFTA: I am happy to hear what the hon Minister says. As this corporation will interest itself in commercial undertakings, we also urge that agriculture will be one of its concerns. For instance, let us say a group of about ten farmers want to plant a certain crop, they should be assisted in this project and there should be a responsible agricultural officer who will decide whether the crops grown there have As the hon member for some hope of a good return . Mount Ayliff pointed out, the rates of interest should be so reasonable as to make allowance for the fact that at times the crops are not as good as one had hoped , because of climatic conditions. However, farming handled by those who care can be profitable. Time is wasted when tractors are required to plough lands which are distant from each other and it would be more advantageous for a tractor to plough lands which are adjacent to each other. I am putting that as a suggestion in connection with the activities of this corporation.
MR H PAMLA: Why are you always sceptical ? . MR GUZANA : I am not the gullible type like you…… MR K G NOTA: Mr Chairman and hon members, it is a pity that this bill has been brought here at such short notice, because it is very important . It affects people of the Transkei as a whole. However, Mr Chairman, I am very, very happy because this Government by this bill is going to take over the activities of the XDC which is now called TDC. We all know that there has been a countrywide cry about the activities of the XDC. Hon members of this House have been crying and even going to the extent of calling it the Xhosa Destruction Corporation . Now that this XDC is going to be taken over it is going to be directly responsible to the Transkeian Government, falling under a particular Minister who will appoint the Board of Directors, and those directors will be directly responsible to the Minister. That particular Minister is responsible for the activities of the TDC to this House. In other words, we will be having a grip over the TDC, whereas before we could not get anything from the XDC. No reports were tabled in this House because it was not our own creation , but at the same time it was working in the Transkei . It had its head office in East London and now the head office is going to be in the Transkei. You know when it was in East London our people went to East London and stayed for days and days. They could not even see a single official . It is an expense to go to East London itself. An official of the XDC would tell you you must see Mr So and -so and in the meantime Mr So-and-so is here. Sometimes you would find about ten people would be allowed to try and apply for one shop. All those applications are taken in to be considered and you will find in the final analysis a person who does not have any experience in business gets the shop. It is surprising to some people how this man could have been given business. Now, Mr Chairman, since this corporation is going to be taken over we hope, and we are certain, that all these irregularities will disappear. To go further, Mr Chairman, I am not subscribing to the opinion of the hon the Leader of the Opposition that our people will never be in a position to take over big businesses in the Transkei which are being held in trust by the TDC. They will be able to do so, Mr Chairman. I admit that there should be no private shareholding in the corporation itself. In other words, the shares should be voted by the Legislative Assembly but , when the corporation has bought a certain business or project, it say about 49 % of the shares should start by selling shares -to the public. In other words, the people will benefit from the profits of that particular undertaking while the corporation remains with about 51 %. As time goes on these shares will be sold rand by rand until they are all sold to the public. You will find that in the final analysis the whole of that business undertaking belongs now to the public and no longer to the government corporation. So it does not require a lot of capital from a particular individual. Let me pass on, Mr Chairman. I agree with him when he says the interest rate of the corporation should be lower than the interest rates of commercial institutions , because the purpose of a corporation is to help the people in such fields as agriculture, commerce, industry and other business. Further, supposing a person has Mr Chairman, I would say this been given a loan by the corporation, that person should be allowed to pay interest only, without returning the capital, for a certain number of years because you will find at times, during the first year to the third year when you are starting a business, things are very hard and it becomes very difficult — more so when you are required to pay interest plus capital at the same time. That is why I say a person, when he so requires, should be allowed to pay interest only for a number of years without paying the capital say three years itself. Thank you , Mr Chairman. MR N JAFTA : Mr Chairman and hon members, in speaking to this bill introduced in the House in connection
CHAIRMAN : Hon members, it depends on the House as to whether we should rise at 4 o'clock or later and whether we should allow more speakers on this. MEMBERS : No, let the Minister reply. ACTG M/FINANCE : Mr Chairman, I think you should give me a chance to reply now because yesterday the hon the ChiefMinister indicated we should rise at 4 pm and we have paid for it because we started at 9 o'clok and therefore we have more than made up the time. CHAIRMAN : I therefore call upon the hon Minister to reply. ACTG M/FINANCE : Mr Chairman and hon members , to reply very briefly, the members need have no fear. The stated policy of the Transkeian Government is that there will be no nationalization of any venture. These corporations will only undertake those projects which the Transkeian citizens cannot or are unable to undertake. Now, with regard to agriculture, it is one of the items which has been undertaken by the XDC. They had already started on it and, in fact, their scheme, to tell the truth, was very lucrative for a change. This is what they did . If at all there was a corporation of people wanting to work together they supplied machinery for ploughing, they supplied fertilizer, they supplied seed and they supplied labour. If you had a land and you wanted to work on your land with your family, you were paid to work on that plot which belongs to you and in the end, after paying all the disbursements, you shared in the profits — that is, the owner of the land. Now , with regard to the directorate, I am pleased to say that the directors of the TDC are almost all Transkeian citizens . The names will be disclosed later. Now, Mr Chairman, I move that this bill be read a second time. Agreed to. The bill was read a second time. ACTG M/FINANCE : Mr Chairman, the committee stage will be on Monday, 17 May. The Assembly adjourned untill 11 a m on Monday, 17 May 1976. 321 .
all the people from Herschel into Sada , blaming me for the situation which was done by the Ciskeian Government. Now, they do not say the "Transkeian Government" -they say "Matanzima ". Well, they will have to prove that in a court of law. Mr Chairman, these two papers are in this House as a matter of privilege. I thank you, Mr Chairman. MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman and hon members, I want to react to the first announcement made by the hon the Chief Minister. I want to indicate that we have no objection to the Assembly continuing into the future in order to finalize our deliberations on this Constitution. True enough, programmes prepared for this week are going to be upset, and if the Government considers that summoning another session to consider this Constitution will cost them a lot of money then the upset programmes are going to cost other people a lot of money. (Laughter) Now, I want to emphasize this constitutional point, namely that if the Republican Government cannot pass the Status Act until we have deliberated on this Constitution, the Constitution as deliberated upon and completed is not necessarily a completed bill. We are merely discussing the draft Constitution in order to make our views known and it will be a National Assembly of this State which will finally determine the contents of that bill. Whilst we may finish our recommendations it may well happen that even after the Status Act has been passed we will amend those recommendations in the Constitution, and all I seek to have registered now is that we reserve our right to make alterations to the Constitution even after the Status Act has been passed. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, I just want to say that the Status Act will not be passed until it has been signed by the State President of South Africa, which I presume will be done after we have passed our Act of Parliament, but the Republican Government wishes to go through all the stages of the bill right up to the third reading. MR S P BHURALI : Mr Chairman and hon members... CHAIRMAN : Hon members, this announcement was made under item 3 on the order paper. It is therefore not in order for ordinary members to deliberate. MR C DIKO : On a point of privilege, Mr Chairman, when will the other members be given a chance to reply on the remarks made by the hon the Chief Minister on this ? CHAIRMAN : The remarks made by the Chief Minister are provided for and by privilege the hon the Leader of the Opposition is entitled to make remarks after the Chief Minister's announcement. I say in block letters - ANNOUNCEMENT. I feel if there is going to be any deliberation on the announcement by the hon the Chief Minister, supported by the hon the Leader of the Opposition, there should be a motion and an agreement to that effect by this House. MR DIKO : Mr Chairman, this House will remember that on Thursday I moved. That motion was answered by the hon the Chief Minister that the Cabinet would look into the question . Now, in his announcement he is including a reply to that motion I moved and I further feel that the two points he raised are very vital to this House . Those points are the cost and the discussion on the draft Constitution and I think we are entitled to comment on that, so Mr Chairman, with your permission I move that we have some discussion on the Chief Minister's announcement. M/EDUCATION : I second, Mr Chairman.
MONDAY, 17 MAY 1976 Prayers were read.
The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon members, I wish to inform the House that early this morning I had a visit from the Commissioner-General who informed me that a communication had reached him from Cape Town to the effect that it will be very inconvenient if this House does not pass the draft Constitution during this present session because the Republican parliament has got to pass what is known as the Status Act - a law which grants independence to the Transkei — and if the Republican parliament should adjourn and have a special session for this particular bill it will be involved in tremendous expense and, mind you, the Status Act has got to be passed after this draft Constitution has been passed by this House. When I considered the amount which would be spent in our own Treasury to summon another Assembly for the consideration of this particular measure , I also felt that parliament should continue and not adjourn today. I regret any inconvenience which might have been caused by my announcement with regard to the prorogation of parliament last week to the members, including myself. Hon members, I hope you will be reasonable and understand that this is an unavoidable situation and we have got to take it as it is. So, Mr Chairman, this House will continue to meet through the night. We shall not fix a time. We will adjourn when we are tired, and, Mr Chairman, the motion of adjournment will have to be made by the Chief Minister. Mr Chairman, I would like to have a meeting of the recess committee at 2 o'clock this afternoon until 2.45, so the House will not meet until 2.45 this afternoon. Mr Chairman and hon members, I want to draw the attention of this House to an unsavoury heading which appeared in the East London Daily Dispatch, reading "Matanzima clashes with his own party" . MR HD MLONYENI : Hear, hear. CHIEF MINISTER : In doing this ,Sir, I wish to tell the House that the Government party is aware of the hostile attitude which this paper has adopted since the inception of self-government. In spite of the Chief Minister's announcement that this Constitution will be dealt with on a non-party basis this paper insists on bringing about partisanship. It was made clear that this Constitution is the property of the Transkeian people and not the property of any party, and therefore the hon members of this House are free to bring forward their views in that connection ; but with the purpose the objective, of bringing about dissension in the Government party this paper makes this unsavoury report, which was unnecessary as far as I am concerned . I am quite aware that the Daily Dispatch and all its satelites are not happy that I have kept the Transkei intact for so many years, because they would like to see revolution and upheaval in this country. GOVT MEMBERS : Hear, hear. CHIEF MINISTER : I am quite aware that this paper and all its satellites are not happy about the handing over of the Transkei to the aborigines of this country and, of course, it has got its satellite "Imvo". I want to warn these two papers that if they persist in this conduct the Transkeian Government will use its own remedy. I am not going to say what remedy it will be. We cannot have unsavoury propaganda being spread in the Transkei by a hostile group of journalists and look at that with a smile . Some of the articles published by "Imvo" are most defamatory and we could easily damage that paper by bringing about an action for defamation of character. For example, "Imvo" has published an article saying that K D Matanzima has ejected
Agreed to
CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, I move an amendment that the discussion should only be given ten minutes because of the amount of work we have to do. MR S P BHURALI : I second the amendment.
Put and agreed to. 322 .
MR BHURALI : Mr Chairman and hon members . . . MR DIKO : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, how could I ask this House to allow us to comment on this and this privilege ,which is only ten minutes, is given to someone else? (Laughter) Mr Chairman and hon members . ... CHAIRMAN : Hon member, I am giving that hon member the opportuinity to air his views as briefly as possible in connection with the announcement by the hon the Chief Minister. MR BHURALI : Mr Chairman, we support the view that this House must go on. We have a duty to complete and it is a very important one. We are very unhappy indeed to read in the Press instances where divisions are to be created, accusing the leadership of the Africans to be so divided in the eyes of the country. It is a great pity that the Daily Dispatch has not taken the warning seriously. I remember a time when it was warned in the Ciskei by the Sebe group. The motive seems to be to create a sensation to sell their We are also aware papers, not to tell the world the truth. ofthe merciless move that is going to prevent the best of our leaders from leading the Africans to indeper.dence . This Press has already succeeded in destroying such leaders as Gatsha Buthelezi in the eyes of the public. We are fully aware of the fact that there is a nucleus amongst the Press who seek to defeat the very objective of the African of gaining his independence by peaceful means. I am happy to say the Leader of this House is dedicated to a peaceful course and nothing is going to prevent him from gaining his objective. I am happy to say he enjoys the confidence of the whole country. We are fully behind him . Some mention has been made concerning the Sada episode. I am from the district of Herschel where we are directly concerned in this matter and I am happy to say all the people of Herschel back the Leader of this House. I want to say a word ofencouragement to the hon the Leader of the Opposition, who made certain remarks. We will encourage you to lead us to salvation. MR C DIKO : Mr Chairman and hon members, I think the interpreter will not worry to interpret for me because I have only a very short time. (Laughter) Mr Chairman, the Daily Dispatch is a paper which has set itself to align itself with a clique of destructive people in this Transkei and it has never been democratic in so far as the Transkeians are concerned. We are a territory ; we are going to be a State and whosoever has the idea of a United South Africa with Transkei must just forget about that. The division, if it can be termed a division, in this House was agreed upon when the hon the Chief Minister, supported by ourselves, announced that the issue of the discussion on the Constitution will be done above party politics, so there is nobody in this House who was critisizing the Constitution because it belongs to a certain party. People were given a right to give their views to the best of thier foresight, so the question of a clash between the recess committee, the leadership and the people who aired their views in this House is altogether arrogant, destructive and uncalled for. Besides that they realise that in this Transkei, though we may not be having our own papers, we have men of integrity and men of character and we know how to follow a leader and we know how to put our case and' our house right. We can do without them and they must quit before we tell them to get out of this House. This is the second warning to the Daily Dispatch by hon the Chief Minister, and “ Imvo" I just ignore. So far as I am concerned it does not exist and they can just answer in court. That is all they can do. But I want to ask the House and make an earnest appeal to the hon members of the House, the Government and everybody regarding this Constitution. We must all remember that we said to the people that the Constitution will be published long before this House sits so that the public outside this House will be able to scrutinize the Constitution and give their representations, their views, on the Constitution , -- and that has not
been done, hon members. The-Constitution, due to some delay or some difficulties, has only been published when we are in this House. Apart from the point of the members here studying or knowing what they are talking about, there are a lot of views outside this House which must be given a chance on the Constitution, so I would appeal that this House should close in order to give these members a chance to go and contact the electorate. The issues discussed in this Constitution are vital - and vital to the future of the people of the Transkei --- and there is no excuse whatsoever, and no excuse to talk about money and that the thing will be expensive. Let it be expensive, for the good of the people of the Transkei. So I sincerely implore the hon the Chief Minister and the Cabinet to close the discussion on the Constitution and allow members to go to the electorate, because the electorate must have its views on this thing. We have been criticised for refusal to conduct a referendum. We have provided for that by consulting various organizations and bodies, but the people themselves have not read this Constitution and have not told us what they want amended in this Constitution, so we must not be selfish and I plead with the House that the Constitution must be given a month and we must come back in July to discuss this Constitution. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, we are not discussing the bill to make it an Act as it is. We are merely discussing a draft Constitution . We can call a meeting of the National Assembly a few days before the independence celebrations in order to deal with the bill. This House shall not dissolve until a new parliament has been inaugurated by our present one, so we shall have a chance of dealing with all the stages of the bill before the indepencence celebrations on 26 October. We can meet four days before that, or five or six days, and you will do justice and bring forward the suggestions you have had from your constituents when we deal with this as a bill . It is now merely a draft paper you can call it a White Paper. MR DIKO: While you are standing ,a questiong please. Shall I understand the hon the Chief Minister to mean that at that stage then we can make amendments which will be effected before the Constitution goes through ? CHIEF MINISTER : You can. I think once the Constitution is dealt with in the form of a bill then at the committee stage of the bill amendments can be brought forward. We will summon parliament a few days before the celebrations so that we continue with parliament even after the deliberations , and deal with all the bills that will be brought forward by the various departments dealing with an independent Transkei. We can take the whole of October, the whole of November, the whole of December, because we are going to deal with very important bills. MR DIKO : I am satisfied, Mr Chairman. MR RS MADIKIZELA : We are satisfied with the announcement by the hon the Chief Minister, especially if it is an assurance that we shall meet before independence. Our anxiety is this : We told our people that the Constitution would be published before we got to the House for the session, but owing to unforeseen circumstances there was this delay. With the assurance by the hon the ChiefMinister we are happy. Thank you , Mr Chairman. TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS
MR W S MBANGA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I lay upon the table a copy of the first and second reports of the Sessional Committee on Public Accounts for 1976. DISCUSSION ON DRAFT CONSTITUTION The discussion was resumed. CHIEF MINISTER :
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Mr Chairman, I would like to
know from the Chair whether sections 15, and 16, 17 were passed. CHAIRMAN : Yes, except section 16 - Languages which was suspended I think pending a meeting of the recess committee members. MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman, with regard to section 17, I think subsection (2) was referred to the recess committee. MR R S MADIKIZELA : I believe section 16 was held back pending a meeting of the recess committee and I believe it is now time for the recess committee to read out the suggested amendment for the benefit of the House. CHAIRMAN : It is on record that discussions on section 16 were suspended or postponed sine die, and I think it is up to the recess committee now to make a report. CHIEF MINISTER : The recess committee, as I announced, Mr Chairman, will meet this afternoon at 2 o'clock. CHAIRMAN : Sections 17 and 18 were also postponed sine die, so I take it that in regard to those sections which were postponed we shall leave them over until the recess committee meets and deal now with section 19.
It has been going on all along. It is nothing new, and in the absence of the Minister of Agriculture another Minister is appointed to act. Clause 19 put and agreed to.
Deputy Ministers. 20. (1 ) The President may from time to time appoint persons (not exceeding five in number) to hold office during his pleasure as Deputy Ministers. (2) Any person so appointed — (a) shall, subject to the directions of the President, assist the Minister whose deputy he is, in the exercise or performance of the powers, functions and duties of such Minister; (b) shall not be a member of the Executive Council ; (c) shall make and subscribe before the President or a person designated by him an oath in the form prescribed in Part 2 of Schedule 5 ; and
(d) shall cease to hold office upon the expiration of a period of three months after his appointment unless he is or becomes a member of the National Assem-
Appointment of acting Ministers and assignment of administrative powers to Ministers. 19. (1) If at any time a Minister is unable to carry out the functions of his office the President may appoint any other member of the Executive Council to act in such Minister's place, either generally or for the performance of a particular function, and it shall also be competent for the President, for the efficient discharge of the busineess of the Republic to assign to any Minister the administration of any law or of any particular provision of any law.
bly. (3) For the purposes of subsection (2) any reference in any law to a Minister shall be deemed to include a reference to the person appointed in terms of subsection (1) as the deputy of such Minister. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, this section provides for the appointment of Ministers to assist other Ministers. That is, when the departments become so cumbersome that it becomes difficult for one Minister to do his duties properly a Deputy Minister may be appointed to assist him. It may happen that these Deputy Ministers may not be appointed at all, but this is a provision which makes it possible for the President on the recommendation of the Executive Council to appoint these assistant Ministers, but such Deputy Ministers shall not be members of the Executive Council. The recess committee put the number at five. Although the number is high we made it five in case at some future distant date these appointments become necessary. I move the adoption of this section. M/HEALTH : I second. MR M P LUDIDI : Mr Chairman, this is an ordinary request similar to that made in connection with clause 18(3) (b). We discussed that section at length, giving our reasons, and we would ask the recess committee to consider subsection 20(2)(d) relative to the reasons we nad in connection with clause 18(3)(b) . CHIEF MINISTER : If I had been present at the debate I should have explained section (d). If you gɔ through the Republican Act you will find an identical section which enables the State President on the recommendation of the Cabinet to appoint a candidate in a certain constituency where there are pending elections to be a member of the Cabinet, or a Deputy Minister in this particular case. This has happened on several occasions in the Republican parliament where a person who was a candidate in an election was appointed a Minister in a vacant seat and he is only given three months in order to win the election. If he does not win the election then the appointment falls away. MR R S MADIKIZELA : With due respect to the hon the Chief Minister, this matter has been referred to the recess committee . Could the hon the Chief Minister not withhold his remarks until after the meeting at 2 o'clock ? The comparison is the same. If you please, hon Chief Minister, can't you withhold this so that your explanation covers both fields ? MR K G NOTA: Mr Chairman, we are the people who
(2) Whenever, in terms of subsection (1 ), an acting Minister is appointed or the administration of any law or any provision of any law which confers imposes or entrusts any power, duty or function on or to any Minister is assigned to another Minister, such lastmentioned Minister shall be competent in all respects to exercise or perform any such power, duty or function, and any reference in that law or provision to the department of State administered by such firstmentioned Minister or the incuinbent of any office in such department shall be construed as a reference to the department administered by such lastmentioned Minister or to the incumbent holding a corresponding office in such department, as the case may be. CHIEF MINISTER .: Mr Chairman, it so happened that the Minister of a department is absent from his office and it becomes necessary that someone should act in his place and carry out his duties in his absence. This section merely provides for that and I move the adoption. MR L L MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman, I would like to be enlightened in respect of the meaning of the words "either generally" in subsection ( 1 ) . CHIEF MINISTER : That means that the Minister can be appointed to be an Acting Minister to perform all the duties of that particular department or to perform a certain
specific duty. MR Z W LUFEFENI : Mr Chairman , in regard to the person who is going to be appointed , from what office will he be appointed ? CHIEF MINISTER : From among the Ministers . MR LUFEFENI : If he is a Minister will he leave that position and go and act in the other position ? CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, this is a matter which has been going on all along and the hon member knows about it. During the absence from office of one of the Ministers it is always announced in the Gazette that the Minister of Justice, say, is acting for the Chief Minister. 324.
made this request and we see that these are similar. We would that both these items are referred to the recess committee. The Acting Chief Minister gave the reasons which are now being given by the hon the Chief Minister, and he went further to say there are the same provisions in the Republican Constitution . We feel there is no need for us to follow the Republican Constitution word for word and therefore I request that this section be referred to the recess committee. MR LUDIDI : Mr Chairman, I was pleased to hear from the hon the Chief Minister that this would be dealt with when there is a vacancy and there is going to be an election. It must be remembered that this was not the reason advanced. It was said this would refer to a person who had expert knowledge of some particular portfolio, and who ..... CHAIRMAN : I would like to know from the House whether the suggestion that this should be referred to the recess committee is accepted or not . If it is accepted there is no need for further discussion on this. Agreed to.
view of the fact that there is no specific provision as to what may happen when the President still continues to withhold his assent after the bill has been referred back to the National Assembly, and his recommendations have been discussed, and probably rejected by the National Assembly, section 7(2)(a) provides for the removal of a President. However, such removal is founded on the grounds of misconduct and you could not say he has misconducted himself by withholding consent, because he has acted in terms of the Constitution. The law provides that he may well withhold his assent. Nor can we say the ground will be inability to perform his duties efficiently for he will be performing the duty of withholding his assent in terms of the provisions of the bill . May I suggest in the circumstances that the point raised by the hon member for Herschel be considered by the recess committee ? MR M P LUDIDI : I support the hon the Leader of the Opposition. MR GUZANA : Support me as a member of the recess committee. MR LUDIDI : No, he still holds the portfolio. I support him on these grounds, Mr Chairman : When you compare this section with the section in the Republican Constitution there is a provision for this deadlock . If a bill has been rejected by the State President it may be shelved until the following session, then it is reintroduced , but if he still does not want to assent to it then it will go back to the House of Commons, then to the Senate, and it will become a law without his assent, so I request the members of the recess committee to take this into consideration when they consider this matter raised by the hon member for Herschel. CHAIRMAN: Does the House accept the suggestion that this also be referred to the recess committee ?
Discussion on Clause 20 deferred. CHAPTER 5 THE LEGISLATURE
Legislative power 21. ( 1) The legislative power of the Republic of Transkei shall vest in a Parliament consisting of the President and a National Assembly. (2) Parliament shall be the sovereign legislative authority in and over the Republic and shall have full power to make laws for the peace, order and good government of the Republic.
Agreed to.
MR GUZANA: Mr Chairman, may I have something specific ? In view of the comments would it not be better if, at this stage, we reserve section 21 (3) read with section 40( 1 ) and (2) ? I hope the hon members will accept that, because in the Republican Parliament it is said "subject to the provisions of this Act", but I don't want to discuss the matter now. May I suggest that section 21 (3) be referred, together with section 40(1 ) and (2), as these provisions seem to be related and give point to the observations by the hon member for Herschel.
(3) Parliament shall exercise its power to make laws by bills passed by the National Assembly and assented to by the President and every law so assented to shall be styled an Act. (4) No court of law shall be competent to enquire into or to pronounce upon the validity of any Act. CHIEF MINISTER : This section, Mr Chairman, provides for the legislative power of the Republic of Transkei to vest in a parliament consisting of the President and the members of the National Assembly. Parliament shall be sovereign, which means parliament is above the courts of law and the courts are merely there to interpret the laws passed by parliament. MR S P BHURALI : Mr Chairman, I would like to be enlightened, please, on subsection (3). Let us take a situation here where the National Assembly deals with a bill, passes it through the various stages and the President refuses to have anything to do with that bill. What happens ? CHIEF MINISTER : The President cannot refuse to assent to any bills because he is a servant of parliament and he does not act alone . He acts on the advice of the Cabinet. MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman, I think the point raised by the hon member for Herschel will have significance when related to section 40(1 ), where the President can give his assent or can withhold his assent, so that in spite of the fact that he will be acting in council that is, on the advice of the Executive - he still has the prerogative to say he shall not give assent. Point is lent to this interpretation by subsection (2), because the bill will go back to the National Assembly and he is given the right to make suggested amendments to the bill and the Assembly then deliberates on those recommendations from the President. I think in
Agreed to. Composition of National Assembly. 22. Subject to the provisions of section 29 the National Assembly shall consist of (a) the paramount chiefs ; (b) seventy chiefs who shall represent the districts of Transkei in which they hold office in the numbers prescribed in the fourth column of Schedule 1 ; and (c) seventy-five elected members.
CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, this section merely provides for the composition of the National Assembly — that is, the paramount chiefs , 70 chiefs and 75 elected members. It will be remembered that in the present parliament the membership of the chiefs and elected members was not on a par. The recess committee decided that in order not to have a very big Assembly we should increase the number of elected members to be equal to that of the chiefs. The Transkeian Constitution Act of 1963 provides for membership of 65 chiefs. Originally there were 64 and we amended the Act to provide for Kentani. Now, the recess committee decided that Port St John's could be considered so as to have an additional chief and bring the number to 66. 325.
MR LUFUFENI : I think those who are not members of parliament will not have an opportunity, because there is this increase. CHIEF MINISTER : I will draw the attention of the hon member to section 23 of the old Constitution Act. He should read that section. Now, that section provides for 64 chiefs. The recess committee has not made an increase in the number of chiefs who will be in this House. They remain as they were, except for Port St John's. The number of chiefs in each constituency remains the same. The increase to 75 is made by Lady Frere and Herschel. I think that is clear, hon members. The Dalindyebo chiefs will remain ten and no more, that is, Umtata 1 ; Mqanduli 6 ; Engcobo 3- a total of 10. Cofimvaba will remain with three chiefs in this House and four including the paramount chief. That is in terms of the Constitution . Now, there are chiefs who were subsequently recognized after this Constitution Act. Those chiefs will not come to this parliament unless they have been brought in by an electoral college of chiefs in that particular district. That will be the position in Lusikisiki, Kentani, Gatyana, Ngqeleni and Cofimvaba. In any event, Cofimvaba has only subchiefs. There are no chiefs there and in terms of this Constitution no subchiefs will be members of parliament. I presume the hon member can only be a subchief and not a chief, if at all he would be a chief, so he will never come to parliament by way of being a chief. He must go to the people. Now, if the hon member says chiefs must not be members of this House he must bring up a motion to that effect . He must not go on asking questions. We are following the wishes of the people in this Constitution and the wishes of the people in 1963. Now, if subsequently to 1963 the hon member did not like this provision (but I can tell him that his party is behind this provision - that is, the National Independence Party - it is only the DP where he comes from that has criticized this section in the past) — but now, the recess committee is composed of both TNIP and DP members. We decided on a compromise only between the elected members and the chiefs . We never considered the question of removing the chiefs from this House. Bring forward a motion. I challenge the hon member now to bring forward a motion that the chiefs must not be members of this Assembly. CHIEF MJ SIGCAU: Mr Chairman, as far as the notes in this draft Constitution are concerned, we have no chiefs reflected therein. CHIEF G M MABANDLA: Mr Chairman, as there will be elected members of this House, will that include other races such as white people who will be resident in the Transkei? CHIEF MINISTER : This Constitution never mentions Whites, Blacks and so on. It mentions Transkeian citizens. Should a white person become a Transkeian citizen he will be eligible for election . Now, Mr Chairman, I wish to reply to the hon member for Bizana . The committee in bringing forward this matter for consideration by this House had in mind the feelings of the paramount chief. There was only one chief in Lusikisiki before the 1963 Act and the tribes in Lusikisiki were not properly represented, but because the number of chiefs in this House could not be increased from the number we had in 1964, it was decided that to make a compromise there could be a reduction in the one district of that region to accommodate the interests of the tribes of Lusikisiki. Not all the tribes of Lusikisiki will be represented, they will still have an electoral college because I think there are ten or more chiefs in Lusikisiki district . We knew that this matter would crop up in these discussions and would be in a position to get the Qaukeni region to meet and discuss the matter. I refer to the members from Qaukeni who can meet and discuss this matter. This is not final, it is merely a proposition which merely required a discussion on this matter from the Qaukeni members,
Then there were three chiefs from Lady Frere and six from Herschel, which makes it 75. Then we decided that the number of elected members should increase from 45, including the number of members from Lady Frere and Herschel, to 75. I hope the hon members will turn to the section in their 1963 Constitution relating to the membership of the House. CHIEF G B SIYABALALA : Mr Chairman, I would like to ask the recess committee what would happen if the areas which we now feel should be included in the Transkei are actually included . What will be the position of those chiefs in those areas if they are the same status as the chiefs we have here? MR L L MGUDLWA : Mr Chairman, this Constitution is parallel to the Constitution of the Republic, or is a child of that Constitution. In the Republican parliament all the members are elected . I would like to know what is happening here now? There have been repeated motions here that the chiefs should occupy a separate House. Why is it that the 150 members should not sit in this Assembly all as elected members and the chiefs who are ex officio members should occupy an upper house ? This is very important, particularly if we claim that our Constitution is based on democracy. CHIEF J NTOLA : Mr Chairman, I would like an explanation in connection with subsection (b) . The number of Bizana chiefs who are members of parliament was six, but looking at the Schedule we see that Bizana will only have three chiefs. What has happened to the other three? If these seats have been taken away from us the tribal authorities and the regional authority should have been notified and the matter discussed at that level. No mention has been made of this in the Qaukeni Regional Authority. Even in this House there was no hint of this and we would like to know who is responsible for this arrangement. This should be discussed and put right, and if there has been some mistake it should be referred back. Nothing can be discussed here unless it has first been discussed by the regional authorities. If this has been done, relying on some enactment, let us know. We don't like this idea and it should be put right. MR Z W LUFEFENI : Mr Chairman, with reference to subsection (a), (b) and (c) I would like to know, now that there is an equality of membership between chiefs and elected members, what all these chiefs are here for. There seems to be a multiplicity of chiefs now. We had 64 chiefs here and 45 elected members. We felt that the elected members should be more that the ex officio members. (Interjections) If the numbers are the same, will the chiefs come as elected members or will they be elected by electoral colleges of chiefs? When the recess committee was discussing this question of chiefs did they discuss the question with figures, knowing that a certain area has so many chiefs, some of whom are not members of parliament ? Here in Umtata we have one chief who is a member of parliament, whereas there are many recognized chiefs who are not members. All the chiefs who are now coming here since this multiplication of chiefs . . . . (Interjections) CHAIRMAN : Hon member, that is very unparljamentary language. MR LUFEFENI : I withdraw, Mr Chairman. There are chiefs who are here as elected members . I can point out many members here who are chiefs but who come here as elected members. I come here as a member elected by the Tembus because they have confidence in me. Here in Umtata we have one chief who is a member of parliament, but there are many others who are recognized besides . I would like to know if there is provision for those chiefs to be members of parliament. I will be elected because I have no doubt people will elect me even after independence. CHIEF MINISTER : Provided you are TNIP. 326.
MR DIKO : On your instructions I withdraw the statement, Mr Chairman. (Interjections) MR GUZANA: Mr Chairman, there need be no condition. The hon member must withdraw and you are the authority to call upon a member to withdraw. MR PAMLA : And it is your paper. MR DIKO: Mr Chairman, I withdraw the statement.
but I want to assure them that the recess committee decided not to increase the number of chiefs from what it was in 1964, except in relation to Kentani and Port St John's. Those two districts had no chiefs at all in 1963 and therefore their chiefs had no representative in this Assembly. I think that is clear, hon members . Now I would like this matter to be postponed with regard to the membership of Qaukeni region only, until the Qaukeni members have discussed it. MR MP LUDIDI : Mr Chairman, my question arises from subsections (a) and (b) of section 22, and also with reference to section 45( 1 ) of the Transkei Constitution Act 1963, in which subsection the designation of a paramount chief is vested in the regional authority. In spite of the heterogeneous composition of the tribes in the remaining four regions, I feel that the creation of a new paramount chieftainship in those remaining regions, or in one of them, is not altogether impossible. CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, we are providing for the number existing at present. That situation existed in 1963. There were four paramount chiefs then but the Act was amended to provide for five paramount chiefs. If paramount chiefs have got to be designated and say in Maluti there is a paramount chief, the number of chiefs in Maluti will not increase. They will remain eight but one of them will be paramount chief. That is what happened in my district. The number did not increase by virtue of the Paramount Chief of Emigrant Tembuland being designated . There were four chiefs there and it remained the same. MR C DIKO: Mr Chairman, I want to add to what the hon the Chief Minister ha. aid in answering the hon member for Umtata about the chiefs . As a veteran seasoned politician I want to warn these people who are always keen on talking about getting rid of the chiefs in the Assembly. (Interjections) In our experience at the recess committee we have found that traditionally the people of Transkei were under the rule of a chief, and this experience cannot be got rid of. I want to tell them that the African National Congress has vanished, where an ordinary man like myself was trying to take over the leadership. They failed because they are not traditional rulers. They don't know how to rule. So I want Mr Guzana's paper to take that point very, very well. (Laughter) The Daily Dispatch is his paper. MR K M GUZANA : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, I am neither a shareholder nor a director of the Daily Dispatch. MR H PAMLA: Why is it they even take your photograph every time you speak ? MR GUZANA: I don't have any influence over their representatives in the Transkei and so this presentation of a paper by the hon member for Tabankulu is altogether unfounded. I want him to withdraw the allegation that I own the Daily Dispatch . MR PAMLA: They report everything you say here. MR GUZANA: If they do it is because what I say is sensible. CHAIRMAN : Will the hon member for Tabankulu withdraw that unfounded allegation. MR DIKO: No-one can say the stateinent I have made is unfounded. I am saying "Mr Guzana's paper" and I am in order. I am not talking to Mr Guzana, I am not addressing anybody, I am talking about a paper which associates with him to attack us here. I am not going to withdraw that statement. CHAIRMAN : Hon member, withdraw the words "Mr Guzana's paper". MR DIKO : Mr Chairman, what is it exactly that I must withdraw ? CHAIRMAN: "Mr Guzana's paper". MR DIKO: Because that infers what? CHAIRMAN: Withdraw that remark, please.
The discussion was adjourned .
AFTERNOON SESSION ANNOUNCEMENT CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon members, allow me to make an important announcement before we resume the debate on the Constitution . That is your privilege, Sir. CHAIRMAN : Carry on. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon members, I wish to inform the House that the hon the Minister of Justice, Chief George Umzimvubu Matanzima, member for Cofimvaba, will be leaving for various countries in Europe and America on 23 May 1976. He will be away from tomorrow because he has to attend a certain meeting in Johannesburg, but will leave Jan Smuts Airport for the United States of America (that is where his tour will start) on 23 May. The object of his visit is that he is representing the Transkeian Government in having top-level discussions in a pre-independence Transkei on diplomatic lines. He will visit the United States of America, Canada, the United Kingdom , Holland, Spain, France, Austria, Greece and Italy. He will be accompanied on this tour by the ambassador trainee who is stationed in Washington, Mr T T Letlaka, and Mr Mtutuzeli Lujabe who is being trained for a post in the Foreign Service. I am sure I am expressing the warm Godspeed of this House when I say we wish him the highest felicitation in his important mission. Thank you, Mr Chairman. DISCUSSION ON DRAFT CONSTITUTION
The discussion was resumed. CHIEF MINISTER : At this juncture, Mr Chairman and hon members, allow me to report on the results of the recess committee's deliberations on sections 16, 17(2), 18(3) (b) read with section 20(2)(d) , and section 21 (3) read with section 40( 1) and (2). On Clause 16 CHIEF MINISTER : The recess committe has decided that section 16 should read as follows:"Xhosa shall be the official laguage of the Republic of Transkei. Sesotho, English and Afrikaans may also be used. Their use for legislative, judicial, administrative and other governmental purposes shall be as determined by the President by proclamation from time to time." I move the adoption of this section as moved by the recess committee. M/AGRICULTURE : I second.
Agreed to. On Clause 17 CHIEF MINISTER : In regard to section 17(2) the recess committee finds absolutely nothing wrong with this subsection. This was a provision which you find in the Transkei Constitution Act where there is a continuation of laws. The laws which have not been repealed should
327.
continue to apply and the President (by "President" we mean the President in Council, with his Executive) shall be vested with the administrative control and the powers, authorities and functions in all matters affecting the peoples of Transkei which, immediately prior to the commencement of the Status of Transkei Act 1976- that is, the Act passed by the Republic granting us independence - and this Act we are dealing with now, were vested in the State President of the Republic of South Africa or in the Transkei Cabinet. Now, there will be a continuation of laws and this Assembly can either repeal or amend laws which applied before it came into existence . The words in brackets (" other than legislative powers and the authorities, powers, rights and immunities of the supreme chief") mean the powers which the State President of the Republic had of acting alone as supreme chief. You know a chief never acts with anybody he acts alone. Where he had a recommendation, for example, from the Bantu Administrative Department that a certain tribe should be moved from Makoba's Location in Kokstad to another location in Matatiele, he acted alone, using his powers as supreme chief. Now, the recess committee did not want any supreme chief in Transkei . I move the adoption, Mr Chairman. M/HEALTH : I second .
(2) Each district mentioned in the second column of Schedule 1 shall ve an electoral division. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, there is no change here from our former Constitution with regard to the election of members. Each district shall be a constituency in terms of the amendment to the Transkei Constitution Act, which provides for reginal authorities to be constituencies, so there will be 28 constituencies in the Transkei , in terms of the registered voters in each district. Registered voters will be counted and then the seats will be allocated. For example, if Mount Ayliff has properly registered and St Mark's district , although bigger, has not registered, Mount Ayliff could have more seats than St Mark's district in terms of this section. That is the position, but there shall be at least one member for each district, irrespective of the number of voters. In other words, no district shall not be represented. There will be one in each, as in Port St John's. I move the adoption . CHIEF G M MABANDLA : Mr Chairman, there has been this statement that people should be urged to register as voters. There should be some compulsion as far as registration is concerned. How can we compel these people to register, Mr Chairman ? How can we remedy the situation that people do not register ? CHIEF MINISTER : The Department of the Interior causes a communication between the Government and the magistrates of all the districts and calls upon the magistrate to tell the people to register as voters, and the members of parliament have been told now and again. I have done it in our party caucuses and I have told our members in our caucuses to go to the people and tell them to register. Now, if the chiefs who are here and the members of parliament are inactive with regard to this issue we cannot help it. For example, Lady Frere district may not have the full quota because they have been very apathetic in this connection. They may not have the three members which they had in the Ciskei. I doubt if the Department of the Interior had a proper calculation about the number of parliamentary members who should represent Lady Frere district. I think they were merely given the number they were given in the Ciskei, but we are going to go thoroughly into the question to find out if they can have two members representing them, or four. I say four, because there will be districts that will have four members , depending on the number of voters. For example, St Mark's district will have four members. There is full registration in St Mark's. I say so because in St Mark's the tribal authority clerk took the trouble to go from location to location at the expense of the tribal authority. In Lady Frere they were to go to the three tribal authority offices only and because many people were far away they did not go there. Now, the remedy is in the hands of the members, especially the elected members, because they depend on these votes. MR K G NOTA : Mr Chairman, under section 23(1) I would like to ask the members of the recess committee to give us the exact formula in other words, the number of registered voters to be represented by a candidate in this House. I am asking that question because according to this draft this House will consist of 75 elected members and it means, therefore, that the number is constant and it stands there at 75 , while the number of registered voters definitely increases . Probably by next year we will have about 20 % or even 50 % more than this year's registration . I want some clarity there, Mr Chairman. CHIEF MINISTER : The formula will be found in the regulations to the Act and I think that for every 25 000 voters an electoral college is entitled to one member, and for every additional 25 000 a second member and for every additional 25 000 a third member. I think that is the position . I am not sure, but you will find that in the regulations. The matter is so done in order to be fair to the voters.
Clause 17 put and agreed to.
On Clause 18(3)(b) and Clause 20(2)(d) CHIEF MINISTER : With regard to clause 18 (3)(b) read with section 20(2)(d), the recess committee has recommended that both these sections should be removed from this draft Constitution . I move the adoption of these subsections . I move the adoption of section 18 with the amendment to delete subsection (3)(b), and section 20 with the deletion of subsection (2)(d).
Put and agreed to. (Note:
1.
2.
Clause 18 later amended by the retention of subsection (3)(b) amended to read :- "(b) unless he is a member ofthe National Assembly." Clause 20 later amended , after the deletion of subsection (2)(d), by the addition of the following proviso to subsection 20(1 ) :— "Provided that no person shall be so appointed unless he is a member of the National Assembly. " See "After Tea Adjournment" Proccedings of Monday, 17 May 1976)
On Clause 21 CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, the recess committe found nothing wrong with subsection 21 (3) and I move the adoption.
Put and agreed to . Electoral divisions and determination of number of members in each division. 23. ( 1 ) There shall be twenty-eight electoral divisions for the election of the members of the National Assembly referred to in section 22(c) and the number of members to be elected in respect of each oelectral division shall be in proportion to the respective total numbers of registered voters In the various divisions : Provided that there shall be elected at least one member in respect of each electoral division. 328.
electoral division in which he is registered , but shall not record more than one vote in favour of any one candidate.
MR Z W LUFEFENI : What I require to be cleared is that in the meantime we have this recess committee, so why is it that this committee has not brought up completed number so that we can tell people what is taking place? CHIEF MINISTER : That is irrelevant, Mr Chairman. I will not reply to that.
MR K G NOTA: Mr Chairman , I have no quarrel with this section, but I want some few things clarified here. Males can register at the age of 18 years if they are taxpayers and females at 21 , but there may be a professional female person who pays tax and is not yet 21. CHIEF MINISTER : You should say "if he or she is a taxpayer, over the age of 18". I think the section as it is will enable ladies who are 18 years and are paying income tax to register, because if "the person" is over the age of 21 years or is a taxpayer over the age of 18 . . . You see, "he" may be "she" . that is the legal interpretation, but the emphasis is on the payment of tax. Clause 24 put and agreed to. Disqualification of voters. 25. ( 1 ) No person shall be entitled to be registered as a voter or to the continuance of his registration as a voter or to vote in any electoral division -
MR M P LUDIDI : Mr Chairman, I want to bring a certain point to the attention of the recess committee arising from the question asked by the hon chief for Tsolo. This concerns the registration of voters. The situation in the urban areas is very, very difficult concerning the rigistration of Transkeian voters and I am sure that the urban representatives can confirm this. Chief Bantu Affairs Commissioners do not co-operate with the urban representatives and their board members . For example, in Port Elizabeth a registration stamp was issued to the board members in terms of the Act which we passed during the session last year. Now, according to the provision of that Act the urban representative has authority to have the custody of the registering stamp, but the Chief Bantu Affairs Commissioner at Port Elizabeth sent the police to the board members who had the stamp. These stamps were issued by the Department of the Interior direct - not by the Bantu Affairs Commissioner - and yet he sent the police to grab the stamp and in the meantime the voters were not registering. Now, there is something wrong there. You go to Johannesburg and you have the same complaint ; you go to Cape Town and you have the same complaint ; you go to Port Elizabeth and you have the same complaint. There is something wrong in the urban areas concerning the registration of Transkeian voters. I just wanted to draw the attention of the hon the Chief Minister to that because we are losing the votes of our people in this way. CHIEF MINISTER : I think the hon member should bring a motion on this aspect. It cannot be contained in a Constitution, but if you move a motion then we can draw the attention of the Republic towards their authorities. Itis not only that. They close the elections at 4.30 instead of 9 o'clock in the urban areas . We are having those difficulties but they cannot be provided for in the Constitution . All the hon member can do is to bring this matter by way of a motion so that it can be discussed thoroughly and we move a resolution and send it to the Republican Government. In any event, our urban representatives have improved the situation since they took over the duties. I move the adoption of section 23. M/HEALTH : I second. MR LUDIDI : Mr Chairman, just one point. I would like to know from the members of the recess committee the disadvantages of adopting the delimitation system concerning the boundaries of constituencies. CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, that is another matter which can be brought forward by way ofa motion to the House, then the Cabinet can go into it.
(a) if he has been convicted of treason or murder ; or (b) if he has been convicted of any other offence and sentenced to a period of imprisonment without the option of a fine (other than detention until the rising of the Court) or ordered to be detained in a rehabilitation centre under any law and such period has not expired or such order has not finally ceased to be operative at least three years before the date before the date of completion of his application to be registered or the date upon which it is decided whether or not his name is to be removed from the voters ' list or polling day in the election concerned, as the case may be; or
(c) if he has been convicted of any corrupt or illegal practice under any electoral law and has been declared incapable of being registered as a voter or of voting at an election during any period, and the said period has not expired ;or (d) if he is subject to an order of court declaring him to be of unsound mind or mentally disordered o defective or is lawfully detained as mentally dis ordered or defective. (2) For the purpose of paragraphs (a) and (b) of subsection (1) (a) a person who has been granted a free pardon shall be deemed not to have been convicted of the offence in respect of which he has been pardoned ; and (b) a period of imprisonment means the full term of a sentence of imprisonment notwithstanding any suspension or remission of the whole or any portion of such sentence . CHIEF MINISTER : This section is clear. You will find this section in our own Constitution the Transkei Constitution Act. I think it is identical, unless you never read your Constitution Act. This refers to the disqualification of voters. I move the adoption of this section, which is identical with that of our Constitution. M/EDUCATION : I second. CHIEF D D MLINDAZWE : Mr Chairman , in regard to subsection (1 )(a), I would like to ask the recess committee who will know amongst the members of the tribal authority that such person has been convicted of treason or murder. MR Z W LUFEFENI : If a man has served a sentence and returns to his home on his release, why should he be disqualified from registration as a voter ? If one has been imprisoned for a political offence that person returns home after his sentence and is accepted as a resident. Why should he be debarred from being registered when he returns home and remains there as a citizen ? These people who are
Clause 23 put and agreed to. Persons entitled to register as voters and to vote. 24. (1) Every person who (a) is a citizen of Transkei, (b) is over the age of twenty-one years or, if he is a taxpayer, over the age of eighteen years, and (c) is not subject to any disqualification mentioned in section 25, shall be entitled to be registered as a voter in an electoral division and, if he is so registered ,to vote at an election .
(2) Every person registered as a voter shall, at an election of members of the National Assembly have as many votes as there are members to be elected for the 329.
taken into custody and then return home are not allowed to register and yet they are the very people who should be registered . We should not make a gaol for people here. Immediately people have been released from gaol they should enjoy freedom. CHIEF MINISTER : Is that a motion? CHAIRMAN : The hon member for Bizana had a question under this section. CHIEF MINISTER : All these cases are heard in the magistrate's court and the record is there. That is how we get the names of all the convicts. Now, the magistrate usually sends a copy of the record to the Government when it concerns a member of parliament, where a chief, for example, was convicted of an offence and sentenced to imprisonment without the option of a fine. If it is in the tribal authority court, the Government will get the record where the tribal authority asks the magistrate to impose a sentence without the option of a fine. CHIEF MLINDAZWE : Mr Chairman, I don't know whether my question was clear or whether I did not understand the reply to my question. My question is based on the fact that the tribal authority registers people as voters When a person wishes to be registered, how will the tribal authority secretary know whether that person has been convicted, because in our offices we don't keep records of people convicted of murder? CHIEF MINISTER : It is quite easy --- the Department of the Interior will sort it out.
MR K G NOTA : Mr Chairman, in connection with subsection (b), I take this paragraph to mean that one can stand for election in a district which is an electoral division but that district should fall within a particular region, so it means a member for Mount Ayliff like myself can stand for election in Mount Ayliff or in Flagstaff Lusikisiki or Bizana, but not in Umtata. Mr Chairman, I want to request the members of the recess committee to consider the posibility of making this thing a little bit elastic and not to analize this into a regional basis. The discussion was adjourned.
AFTER TEA ADJOURNMENT CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, with your indulgence, Sir can we revert to section 18(3)(b) and 20(2)(d) once again. We decided to delete the whole of subsection (3)(b) under section 18 but I think the intention was that we delete the words "for longer than three months". I think the intention is that a Cabinet Minister should be a member of the National Assembly, so we should retain the words "unless he is a member of the National Assembly". Section 18(3)(b) will therefore read :"(3) No person shall hold the office of Minister of State (b) unless he is a member of the National Assembly." The same applies to section 20. Paragraph (2)(d) can be deleted and the following proviso added to section 20(1) :— "Provided that no person shall be so appointed unless he is a member of the National Assembly."
CHIEF MLINDAZWE : After he has been registered ? M/HEALTH : It could be. MR W M MADIKIZELA : When a person has been convicted in the Republic for treason and is released after that, how will the Transkeain Government regard his application for registration ? CHIEF MINISTER : If he is pardoned he will be registered. That is what this section says under subsection (2)(a). MR D NDAMASE : Mr Chairman, the Transkeian Government will have no records of treason trials. What is the position then? CHIEF MINISTER : We are preparing this Constitution for a government with full powers to try people for treason and murder. CHIEF G W NKWENKWEZI : Mr Chairman, I want to ask the recess committee a question in connection with those people who are convicted under the Republican laws. Now that we are going to be given independence in the Transkei will those records continue into independence ? CHIEF MINISTER : Yes, Sir, that is the position. CHAIRMAN : Hon members do not seem to realise that this draft Constitution is to take effect after independence, so we should not confuse it with prevailing conditions at present. MR Z W LUFEFENI : Mr Chairman, as it is required that we should not confuse these matters, when we have independence will these members of the recess committee tell us the offences committed by certain individuals ?
Amendment put and agreed to.
On Clause 26 The discussion was resumed. CHIEF MINISTER : I wish to request hon members to turn to section 29 of the Transkei Constitution Act, This section is identical with that section in the Constitution Act. In considering this provision the recess committee bore in mind that this matter was brought by way of motion by the Opposition on several occassions, that members should be able to contest seats anywhere in the Transkei, but the Government side always opposed this motion. Now, I have not heard any Government member whispering in my ear that he has now changed his views. However, we have some democratic members who have joined us. (Laughter) In any event, they should have whispered in my ear, but I want to bring to the notice of the House that this was always contested by this House and it was futile to bring it forward. In any event, I am one of the chief opposers of this. I still oppose it. MEMBERS : Reasons ? CHIEF MINISTER : Why should a man from Mount Ayliff with different views contest a seat elsewhere? He can go to his own people and represent his own people. At Cofimvaba he might find himself assaulted, and we don't want disturbances here. We don't want the hon member for Engcobo to go and cause unrest in Qumbu. In Qumbu there is no unrest. There is no Poqo group there, but at Engcobo ....! I am the only one who can go there, no matter what names they call me. MR KG NOTA: Mr Chairman, I am very, very unhappy because the hon the Chief Minister is replying to this before I have finished speaking to it. It does not matter whether you do not agree to it, but listen to the arguments I wanted to put forward . When I raised this point I was well aware of section 29(b) of the old Constitution Act of 1963. Mr Chairman, I would inform this House that despite this provision a member can stand for election in a region apart
CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr Chairman , he is out of order. CHAIRMAN : We are dealing here with disqualification of voters. The reasons for which voters may be disqualified are listed . This section referred to here is not functioning yet. Clause 25 put and agreed to. Qualification for election to National Assembly. 26. No person shall be qualified to be elected or to be a member of the National Assembly unless -
(a) he is over the age of twenty-one years. (b) he is registered as a voter in any electoral division in the region in which the division in respect of which he is to be or has been elected is situated ; and (c) he is a citizen of Transkei. 330.
from his own constituency that is ,the district. There has been no member in this House who has stood for election in a region other than in his own district, but I request the members of the recess committee to consider allowing candidates who qualify to stand election for in the district in which they reside to qualify to stand for election in the whole of the Transkei, because a person who stands for election normally gets an invitation to stand. Supposing I am working here in Umtata as a clerk in the magistrate's court and the people of Umtata happen to have a fancy for me, those people then should have a right to invite me to stand for election here in Umtata. Supposing further there is a minister of religoin in Mount Ayliff and he is a registered voter at Engcobo, but the people of Mount Ayliff are satisfied with this minister and they want him to represent them in parliament. That person should have a right and should be allowed to represent those people in Mount Ayliff. Nobody has ever contested a seat without any invitation and so the reason why a person should not contest a seat in another district does nor really apply. Those people should not invite a person who may cause unrest. Mr Chairman, it happens at times that a man lives in a particular district but on the boundary of that district and he is better known in the neighbouring region than in his own. (Interjections) CHIEF MINISTER : It is no good. I will not consider this. MR NOTA: I was just advancing reasons. (Interjections). CHIEF MINISTER : Bring a motion. MR NOTA: Mr Chairman, please save me from the hon members. Ask them to give me a chance. CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR NOTA: There is no reason for a motion because I am speaking to paragraph (b), that this paragraph should not be limited to a regional basis but should be on a countrywide basis. That is what is happening in the Republican parliament - the very thing they are wanting to mimic. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR LL MGUDLWA : Mr Chairman, this is a most important point, even if it has been replied to today, but it remains important. I will give two examples. During the election in 1968 two people came, one from Tsolo and one from Cofimvaba. (Interjections) Allow me to tell lies today and I will allow you to tell yours tomorrow, because you have already told lies. (Laughter) One man came from Tsolo and said : "Mgudlwa, we knew you when you were in the government service and we saw your name. If we were allowed to vote for you we would do so." Another man from Cofimvaba said : "We would also vote for you seeing that you did fine work in the magistrate's office in Cofimvaba." There was something known as the Regional Head of Emigrant Tembuland. This person from Cofimvaba said: "We can see people will steamroll you people, but we want people who will represent us." At one time you asked me why I should fear anything you would do to me, but now why should you entertain fears ? Democracy must be done and seen to be done because the way we are emulating the Republican Constitution, look at the Prime Minister of the Republican Government who . is a Tembu from Jamestown and he is being voted by the people of Nigel. (Laughter) He is in this place more often than not. I have seen him come here.
MR MGUDLWA: People are talking and telling us this Constitution is going to be referred to the Republican Government. It is of great importance that this should not be done according to regions. You must not fear Engcobo Poqo when you are in Cofimvaba. MR E V NDAMASE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to speak in support of the hon member for Mount Ayliff. CHIEF MINISTER : On a piont of order, Mr Chairman, I have moved that this section be adopted. MR MGUDLWA: No. CHIEF MINISTER : I would that a counter-motion be moved and seconded in order that we have progress. I think this matter has been sufficiently canvassed . MR K G NOTA: Mr Chairman, I am not of the opinion that my request to the members of the recess committee should be voted on. I was merely requesting that the members of the recess committe should consider this thing and if they feel they cannot do that we cannot take part in the voting on this section. D/CHAIRMAN : Section 26 has been moved and seconded .
Clause 26 put and agreed to. Oath of members of Assembly. 27. Every member of the National Assembly shall, before he takes his seat, make and subscribe before the Chief Justice or a judge designated by him or in the case of a member elected to fill a casual vacancy before the Speaker, an oath substantially in the form prescribed in Schedule 6. Clause 27 put and agreed to. Paramount chief's representative. 28. (1) Subject to the provisions of this section a paramount chief may by writing under his hand appoint any person (other than a member of the Assembly but who otherwise qualifies to be elected as such a member) as his representative to accompany him to all or any of the meetings of the Assembly or to attend such meetings on his behalf. (2) Every appointment under subsection (1 ) and any revocation thereof shall be notified to the Speaker in writing by the paramount chief concerned. (3) A paramount chief and his representative shall not both participate in the same proceedings in the Assembly. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, during the present parliament paramount chiefs are allowed by Constitution to appoint representatives who should take part in the discussions in the absence of the paramount chiefs. This section is identical to one which appears in the Transkei Constitution Act. I move the adoption. M/EDUCATION: I second. MR K G NOTA: Mr Chairman, it is unfortunate because we who are constituting this House today were not there when this was motivated for the people at the time, and therefore we request motivation as to why these people were ever asked to accompany paramount chiefs to this House because , Mr Chairman , to represent to a person you represent that person when he is not there. Now we find these people representing the paramount chiefs and at the same time the paramount chiefs are here and, according to this draft Constitution , the paramount chiefs will still continue to be here. The hon member for Tabankulu is asking me if I am against chieftainship and I want, Mr Chairman, to reply to that in no uncertain terms. I am for chieftainship , but this Constitution is going to be taken by
D/CHAIRMAN : Will the hon member stick to the subiect, please. MR MGUDLWA : This is very important because in a Constitution we must not just fumble. As we are doing away with the Constitution for 1963 today, we are not discussing that Constitution but a Constitution which is to cater for independence. CHIEF MINISTER : You don't even accept independence.
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Then, Mr Chiarman, people are multiplying in this House. There are five paramount chiefs, there are 70 chiefs elected from the electoral colleges of chiefs, and there are 75 elected members from the electoral divisions in the Transkei. That is the composition of this House, Mr Chiarman, and therefore it should remain like that. According to our tradition a paramount chief has his own “indunas", and those "indunas" should be amongst these two catergories. These people come from various areas and those areas are under the various paramount chiefs. I therefore see nothing wrong. MR W S MBANGA: On a point of order, Mr Chairman, on several occasions the hon the Chief Minister has stood up to say if any member has anything to say in the consideration of this Constitution which is quite distinct from a general discussion on any matter, he should move an amendment by way of the deletion of certain words, the substitution of certain words or the addition of certain words and the House will vote on that . This is the way we should proceed in discussing this draft Constitution, They must follow the procedure of following the regulations under this Constitution, although it is theirs. MR L L MGUDLWA : Mr Chairman, this is something I do not like to find myself in - this rumbling of talk. I think the views of the hon member are quite clear and all we should do is consider what he has stated. CHIEF G B SIYABALALA : Mr Chairman, we are at variance now. We are not members ofthe recess committee and we are not in agreement with the views expressed by the hon member for Mount Ayliff. The paramount chief will elect or nominate a person of his liking. He need not appoint a member who is already elected by the people, which means a paramount chief has now got to be guided by the people as to whom to nominate. I think these hon members are wasting time and no-one will agree with them. MR L S BALENI : I agree with what has been suggested by the hon member for Mount Ayliff, so that the funds of the Government are used in the proper way. The paramount chiefs have influence in their own areas and can tell the people whom to vote for. We are trying to save the taxpayers' money.
us to the people and the people will require an answer to this and therefore we want the members to the recess committee to give us a definite answer to this. CHIEF MINISTER : We take this provision from the old Act, Mr Chairman . We have not heard that there is anything wrong with it. There has never been a motion to the effect that the paramount chiefs' representatives should be removed from this House. MR NOTA: I am asking for motivation. CHIEF MINISTER : That is motivation. That is why we put the provision here. The people who made the Constitution had a reason at the time. They were not foolish. They were honoured gentlemen and I take it that they were reasonable men. Now, I am trying to give my motivation. We must honour the people who made our - that is, the Constitution of 1963 — and if Constitution there is any amendment, hon members are free to bring a motion. MR L L MGUDLWA : When? CHIEF MINISTER : You can do it now and move that this be deleted. Somebody seconds you and we vote on that. You are free to do that and you will be free to do it when we place this as a bill before the House, but these 27 men were not fools when they drafted this Constitution. They had to respect the Transkei Constitution of 1963. MR P N NKOSIYANE : Mr Chairman, I also wish to make some remarks. It is usual for a chief to be accompanied by his counsellors. Right from Creation a chief has always had a counsellor and consideration should be made as far as the counsellors are concerned. As a matter of fact, they should be paid some money even if they do not come to this House, because they are the chief's counsellors. If this parliament has come to destroy chieftainship then we can just follow suit. but if it be not so then the chiefs should be considered and they should have their counsellors. I do not say all chiefs, but paramount chiefs. MR C DIKO : We are talikng about kings, man. MR NKOSIYANE : The paramount chiefs should have counsellors. Counsellors are there to guard the chiefs and to act on behalf of the chiefs during their absence. If the paramount chief or chief is present the counsellor should also be there because he has to serve the chief. He has to serve the chief in all purposes. I, Ntabayitshi, say we cannot do without these representatives who are counsellors to paramount chiefs, and they must be paid. CHIEF D D MLINDAZWE : Mr Chairman, I think the members of the recess committee are merciless. I say so because the rest of these members are not assisting the hon the Chief Minister when replying to questions, (Interjections) unless this was a decision by the recess committee. I do not know now whether we are in a committee stage seeing it is only the hon the Chief Minister who replies, and I ask that the members of the recess committee should assist the hon the Chief Minister in replying. (Interjections) D/CHAIRMAN : Order, please.
M/HEALTH : Mr Chairman, I would just like to pose a question to the hon members. I suppose you are all agreed that the paramount chief himself will be a member of the National Assembly, and the elected member, say, from Umzimkulu will also be a member of the National Assembly. Let us say now he is representing the paramount chief, what would happen in the event of there being voting in the House ? The paramount chief is a member of the Assembly, the elected member is a member of the Assembly, what will happen in the event of there being voting? MR M E DEKEDA : Mr Chairman, this is not the first Constitution ever discussed by the people. We are agreed on the principle that the paramount chiefs should have representatives, but the question is whether certain words should be added or deleted . What will solve the question is that the hon members should say exactly how this clause should stand and whether any words should be deleted or whether any should be added . MR M P LUDIDI : Mr Chairman, when the discussion started we did not move any amendments because we were told there would be no motions but there would merely be discussion. MR K M GUZANA: I merely rise, Mr Chairman, to defuse the atmosphere which is beginning to grow a bit tense. I think we have maintained up to now the gentlemen's agreement that hon members of the Assembly who are not members of the recess committee should express these views and if we accommodate these views we should go and think about them. Should the committee recommend against those views, hon members are still entitled , when this bill
CHIEF H Z ZULU : Mr Chairman, as far as what has has been said by the hon Mr Nota is concerned, how would it be if the counsellors of the paramount chiefs should be elected by the people in the administrative areas and then they would come into this House to represent the paramount chiefs? MR K G NOTA : I think what the hon the Chief from Butterworth wants to say is this. We have no quarrel with the chiefs having their own counsellors in this House. Each region has elected people to this House. The paramount chief can take from amongst these elected members from the region and make that person his representative because he is already a member of this House . That will save people brought into this House by the back door. The paramount chief will only take a person who is already a member and make that person "iphakati". (Interjections)
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comes before this House as a bill proper, to put in their amendments . I, for one, would be very sorry if at the consideration of this bill we were to break up and react on a party basis, because that would mean that some of the members of the recess committee who express views which are probably at variance with what is contained here will have to come out and thus break the confidence and the solidarity of that committee. I believe that between now and the time when this bill comes before this House hon members will have had the opportunity to consult the public and other bodies so that they can then bring their views by way of amendment or criticize the bill at the committee stage, so I still implore members to speak freely and not be bound by any motion to amend — as you have done up to now. MR L L MGUDLWA: It is of vital importance that when men gather to discuss a certain matter they should. consider it as men. We all know that any paramount chief has a representative and we know that people differ. Look at subsection 28(3) where it is stated that the paramount chief and his representative shall not take part in the same proceedings. I have this question to ask : A representative represents someone who is absent or away. Why should he not therefore be allowed to take part in discussions when the representative and the paramount chief are both present? MR GUZANA : I thought the hon member was versed in tradition. A chief may be present but it is for the counsellors to discuss. The paramount chief or chief may just gesture to someone and say: Will you speak ? The chief is sitting there and knows his counsellors and he knows which one to hint at. You will see a counsellor in the presence of a chief in any deliberations. He just goes before the chief, whispers to him and the whole thing is set in motion. A patamount chief is not represented because he is not there. Even if he is there this man is his mouthpiece in a way, and when he does actually speak himself we know that everything is approaching settlement. That is why the representative will not speak if the chief has actually spoken. If the chief wishes to maintain himself in his dignified position he sets this man to speak. The counsellor nay speak in the absence of the chief but even if you are refused an application you go home satisfied because it is not the chief who has spoken. You come back again when the chief is present, because it was the counsellor who was the mouthpiece and the chief himself has not answered. MR MGUDLWA: I am pleased with what has been said by the speaker. In fact, he has spoken but he has conveyed nothing. (Laughter) Something has happened which has made the paramount chief speak whilst the paramount chief is speaking someone will interfere and then the counsellor will get annoyed and suddenly speak. The counsellor is always there to guard against anything happening and when there is some trouble it is the counsellor who stands up to intervene. It may happen that the counsellor stands up and addresses the people to keep quiet while the paramount chief is talking. What I want to point out is that there is no provision made in that respect in so far as this subsection is concerned. I would understand if . ...
in the Assembly shall at no time exceed senty-five and, in the event of the institution after the commencement of this Act of any new paramount chieftainship, the number of chiefs referred to in section 22(b) who represent the district in which such additional paramount chief resides shall be reduced correspondingly. (2) (a) Whenever ,by reason of the provisions of subsection ( 1 ) of this section or the fact that the number of chiefs holding office in any district exceeds the number qualifying for membership of the Assembly under section 22(b), it is necessary to determine (i) which chief shall be excluded from membership of the Assembly, or (ii) which chief or chiefs shall represent such district in the Assembly, or (iii) which chief shall fill the vacant seat of a chief in the Assembly, the Speaker, or if there is no Speaker a person designated by the President, shall convene a meeting of the chiefs holding office in the district in question in order that they may, by secret ballot, make the necessary determination : Provided that, if such chiefs are unable to come to an agreement, such determination shall be made (also by secret ballot) at a meeting of the paramount chief, if any and all the chiefs in the region in which such district is situated . (b) The meetings referred to in paragraph (a) shall be held before every general election and shall be convened for a day earlier than the day fixed for the nomination of candidates in such election. (3) Where during the life of an Assembly there is an increase in the number of chiefs holding office in any district, the membership of any chief then representing such district shall not be affected thereby. MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman, this section seems to be substantially the same as the relevant section in Act 48 of 1963. Now, first of all, subsection (1 ) merely states that there will be 75 chiefs in the Assembly, including the paramount chiefs . It goes on to say that if a paramount chief is designated in any region this will mean that there are now six paramount chiefs instead of five and one would be persuaded to the view that there should then be an extra chief to make 76. This shall not be so. The paramount chief will elbow out one of the chiefs who is already a member of the Assembly, so that the number remains at 75. Let us give an example. Let us say in Emboland a paramount chief is designated and he resides in Qumbu district and there are two chiefs from the Qumbu district who are members of the Assembly. By reason of the fact that you have the paramount chief residing in Qumbu, one of the two chiefs who are members of the Assembly drops out and his place is taken by the paramount chief so that the number of chiefs coming to the Assembly from Qumbu remains at two. MR K G NOTA : Which means an additional representative . MR GUZANA: Not an additional one. The paramount chief is one. MR NOTA: But a representative of the paramount chief. MR GUZANA: Yes, it may be that will be the result. Now, a similar situation may occur as regards chiefs as distinct from paramount chiefs coming to the Assembly. Let us assume, for instance, that in the Ngqeleni constituency four chiefs are members of the Assembly and there are only four recognized chiefs in the Ngqeleni district. There is no real problem. Once a fifth chief is designated in Ngqeleni, this does not necessary mean there will be five seats for chiefs from Ngqeleni, but the number will remain at four. Those five chiefs shall then sit as an electoral college to
MR C DIKO : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, what are we talking about in this House ? This is mere waste of time. This is quite irrelevant. They accept this thing that there must be a representative and they are telling all sorts of stories here. He must sit down. This is nonsense. D/CHAIRMAN : Hon members, I feel this section has received sufficient discussion and what was challenged by the hon member for Mount Ayliff also seems to have been canvassed enough. I would like to find out from the House whether they agree to section 28. Clause 28 put and agreed to. Chiefs in Assembly. 29. (1) The total number of paramount chiefs and chiefs
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the chief to represent them in this House. (Interjections) Give me a chance, please. D/CHAIRMAN : Order. MR NOTA: It will save this House from talk that the chiefs are being rolled into this House. MR C DIKO: What about the expense involved? MR NOTA: There will be no extra ballot, Mr Chairman, because on the same ballot paper as for the elected members of the House there will be the names of the chiefs. The people will then vote for the elected members and below they vote for the chiefs. (Interjections) Wait, let me continue. So, Mr Chairman, there is a voter, and there is a ballot paper where the chiefs are more than the required number in this House. Supposing in a district there are four chiefs and two are required in the House, four names of the chiefs will appear on the ballot paper. There will be a big line and on top there will be the names of the candidates, and here is a registered voter coming. He will mark X against the candidate and then below he goes further to mark another X against the chief or chiefs he wants in this House. In other words, Mr Chairman, this House will still have 75 chiefs and those chiefs will not fight against any candidate except amongst themselves, and they will come here as chiefs and they will remain 75 and nobody will ever say that the chiefs have come here on their own.
decide by secret ballot who of the five chiefs to make the number four shall come and be members of the National Assembly. This determination arises when there are more chiefs in a district than there are seats for chiefs in the Assembly for that district. Now, how is this done ? The Speaker calls the chiefs of the district together, advises them they must elect amongst themselves the number of chiefs to take up the seats for that district. This is done by secret ballot. Now, assuming that the chiefs agree to disagree so that two chiefs vote for themselves and the other two vote for themselves and there is a deadlock, then the regional chiefs come together as an electoral college and involve the paramount chief in that regional college of chiefs. That electoral college decides which chiefs shall represent that district in the Assembly, and that is done by secret ballot. If there is no paramount chief for that region then the chiefs ofthat region validly constitute the electoral college to determine the members of the Assembly from the excess of the number of chiefs in a district. Now, if you look at subsection (2)(b), such meeting shall be held before nomination day. Now, assuming that whilst parliament is still running out its lifetime there is an increase in the number of chiefs in a district. Parliament's life is five years and if a new chief is designated in a district that results in the number of chiefs being greater than the number of seats for chiefs in that district. If there were to be an electioral college hold it would mean the membership of a chief in the Legislative Assembly, who was validly a member by reason of the fact that he was within the number of seats for chiefs from that district, might be affected adversely. Such a situation shall not justify the holding of a meeting for the electoral college in that district. Once he has been given that position it is not right that position should be snatched away from him. MR N JAFTA: Clause 29 states there will be 75 chiefs, and there will also be 75 elected members. The hon the Chief Minister has mentioned from time to time that we are following the procedure practised by western countries . He went further to state that our Constitution follows the Republican Constitution, but we are now coming to the conclusion that what we are coming across now does not follow what he has stated previously. Many people outside tell us it is unconstitutional to have such a great number of people who have not been elected .(Intejections) D/CHAIRMAN : Order, hon members . MR JAFTA: I know that some people in this House do not like what I am saying. CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, I think the hon member is now discussing section 22 which we have completed . We are merely talking about chiefs who are to be members of the Assembly. The question of democracy and all that should have come in under section 22. Mr Chairman, I am requesting that you bring the hon member to order. MR K G NOTA : Mr Chairman, I would request the House to follow me carefully on this point. In section 29(2)(a)(ii) which chief or chiefs shall represent such district in the Assembly. According to the explanation by the hon member for Mqanduli he says an electoral college of chiefs shall decide the chiefs who shall come to the Assembly. In other words, chiefs to come shall elect a chief or chiefs to come to the Assembly to represent the district. In other words, that is where I want hon members to listen and consider this thing very carefully and seriously. I do not quarrel with the representation of chiefs in this House. Seventy-five of them should come to this House. In a district where the chiefs are more than the required number in this Assembly (this excludes paramount chiefs, Mr Chairman) how would it be that the electoral college is dissolved and it does not exist and that these chiefs go to the people of that particular district and those people choose the chief or chiefs who should come to the Assembly? (Interjections) It means an election by the people electing
(Interjections) D/CHAIRMAN : Order, Please. MR NOTA: These chiefs will be representing the people, not the other chiefs in this House. Mr Chairman, in that way this parliament will be almost democratic. M/AGRICULTURE : Almost democratic ? MR NOTA: Yes, because this electoral roll will still be kept separate. MR R S MADIKIZELA : I would like to ask the hon member for Mount Ayliff what provision does he make for the chief who would like to stand as an elected member. MR NOTA: I am not quarreling with that . MR MADIKIZELA : Those who want to stand as elected members indicate on polling day that they want to be elected by the people? MR NOTA: That's right. MR GUZANA: Mr Chairman, this intricate and laborious method needs to be answered point by point and I want to reply to him so that any other member who might think the same way may probably revise his views. A chief who is elected to the Assembly is an elected member. He no longer falls under the category of chiefs coming here by reason of the fact that they are chiefs. Thus, for instance, we have hon member for Qumbu, Chief S S Majeke who is a chief, but he is here and calculated as an elected member. In other words, his presence here does not increase the number of chiefs in this House. In the method suggested by the hon member you are going to increase the number of elected members. . MR NOTA: They are chiefs. MR GUZANA: Yes, chiefs who come here as elected members. MR NOTA: No, you don't follow me. They will remain at 75. (Interjections) D/CHAIRMAN : Order, order. MR R S MADIKIZELA : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, I would direct a plea to members who are members of the recess committee to put questions to the House rather than attempt to make a statement of reply, because we are making provision for us to be able to say to the rest of the House : The point raised is noted for the committee to sit and canvass - if we feel the need for it. MR GUZANA : Chairman, we are near 6 o'clock now. The hon member for Ngqeleni seems to prescribe the procedure which the recess committee should follow and yet it is my view that whatever view is expressed here should be canvassed so that we understand it more, and we do not
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we have no paramount chief and the Speaker will go out and hold a meeting with these two chiefs and he will find them both wanting to come to the Assembly. When votes are cast they both vote for themselves. At the votes will balance, who will make the decision? CHIEF MINISTER : The Speaker does not go to the district. It says the Speaker will designate some one to do his job. He usually directs the magistrate to call the chiefs to his office where there are more than the number of chiefs required to go to parliament, but where the vote sare equal and each chief votes for himself the matter is not submitted to the paramount chief. It is submitted to the regional authority. It is the regional which decides by vote which chief shall go. I mean the chiefs in the regional authority not the regional authority itself. In other words, in Fingoland if there are two chiefs in Tsomo and each votes for himself, then the chiefs of Nqamakwe and Butterworth come and they vote which of the two chiefs of Tsomo should go to parliament. The chiefs of the region will be the Appeal Court and they will decide which chief should come to parliament. MR Z W LUFEFENI : What about the members of the regional authority ? CHIEF MINISTER : No, the chief of the regional authority, not the members. CHIEF NKWENKWEZI : What happens if two chiefs vote for one and two for the other chief? MR GUZANA: Mr Chairman, the chairman of the meeting usually has a casting or a deliberative vote. He will exercise his vote in the usual way. MR M P LUDIDI : Suppose the Speaker of the House designates the magistrate to convene that meeting and at that meeting there is a deadlock as far as voting is concerned. Now, the magistrate who is an officer from Cofimvaba has to cast a vote in the region where a chief of Fingoland is involved. Is that proper? CHIEF MINISTER : If the magistrate of the district is not in a position to cast a vote he will refer the matter to the Speaker of the House. He was merely designated by the Speaker, then the Speaker of the House will be the chairman of that meeting. MR Z W LUFEFENI : Mr Chairman, we have had an experience here in Umtata where there was voting in connection with two chiefs and it was then suggested that when there was a difficulty the members of the regional authority should be called upon to vote and that is how that matter was solved. CHIEF MINISTER : I think the section is clear. It says all the chiefs in the region in which such district is situated. If in Umtata the members of the regional authority were called on it was irregular. It was not in terms of the law. Clause 29 put and agreed to.
understand it more only by asking questions but also by giving explanations so that the hon members know what other people think. The recess committee can then take those views and consider them. May I then move an adjournment of the House until 7 p m and ask that the members of the recess committee remain for just about five minutes. M/HEALTH : I second. MR MADIKIZELA : Just before you send us out, Mr Chairman, I raised a point so that we should avoid the recess committee talking at cross-purposes. That is why I say we should reserve our own ideas. M/HEALTH : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, it has been moved that we adjourn until 7 o'clock and seconded and a request has been made that the recess comittee members meet for five minutes now. The discussion was adjourned . EVENING SESSION On Clause 29
The discussion was resumed. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, when the Transkei Constitution Act was drafted it was forseen that the number ofchiefs would not remain static in the Transkei at the number of 64 at the time, and it was decided that the Constitution should be so drafted as to allow the chiefs themselves to sort it out among themselves. Since that time there has never been any time when the chiefs came forward with a motion or a suggestion to the effect that the Constitution should be so amended that they should be elected by the people if the number of chiefs should increase in any area. The recess committee took into consideration that this was one of the basic principles of the Constitution which could never be easily altered. Certain people seem to take chieftainship very lightly and think they can make it a political football. The chiefs are very sensitive when they have to become a political football. Chiefs would like, whenever there is an issue which affects them, to bring it up themselves to the Government. Now, the recess committee would never do anything which would militate against the interests and the dignity of the chiefs. If the chiefs themselves in this House would bring up this matter and say they would like to be elected by the people we would be very pleased to hear them say so, and I think the recess committee will lend an ear to them. Thank you very much. MR B P VAPI : Mr Chairman, I stand up to support the idea put forward by the hon the Chief Minister. After the remarks by the hon the Chief Minister concerning the idea put forward by the hon member for Mount Ayliff, I think members will desist from following that line. Today the draft Constitution in on the same lines as the Constitution which brought this House into existence. Then hon members must realise it is the chiefs who have made such institutions as this one possible. We have to be consistent with the ideas of 1963, otherwise we shall get into difficulties. Thank you. MR S P BHURALI : Mr Chairman, I see no difficulty in what is being discussed. Under section 29 the chiefs are given the opportunity to settle their own position and I do not see any need for us to interfere before they have asked us for advice. We will find ourselves in difficulties, because the chiefs came here for the simple reason that they are our chiefs and we will be plunging into something which is not our business. I will request the Chairman to see that we do not waste time. The chiefs should settle their own problems and if there is any difficulty they will consult their people. I think this section is quite in order. CHIEF G W NKWENKWEZI : Mr Chairman, I would like an explanation in connection with subsection 29(2)(a). This section states that the Speaker will go to a district where chiefs will elect from among themselves. Suppose there are two chiefs in a district. In Fingoland
Vacation of seat by member of Assembly. 30. (1) The seat of a member of the National Assembly shall become vacant (a) upon the death of such member ; (b) upon receipt by the Speaker of the resignation in writing of such member ; (c) if such member, or in the case of a paramount chief both such chief and his representative , fail for a whole ordinary session to attend any of the sittings of the Assembly without its special leave ; (d) if he ceases to posses the qualifications mentioned in section 26; or (e) in the case of a paramount chief if he vacates, ceases to hold, or is suspended from, such office. (2) A paramount chief or a chief who vacates his seat under paragraph (c) of subsection (1 ) shall also vacate his chieftainship: Provided that the National Assembly may by resolution decide that such paramount chief or 335.
Act so that it may pass legislation . In other words, the session after the commencement of the act will be taken as the first session of the National Assembly in terms of the Constitution Act. I move, Mr Chairman.
chief shall not vacate his chieftainship in which event he shall be deemed to have been reinstated as a member of the Assembly with effect from the date of the resolution. MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman and hon members, this section provides for a situation where a seat becomes vacant. If he should die, for instance, there would be a vacancy. If he resigns in writing and the letter is addressed to the Speaker there is a vacancy. If a paramount chief and he and his representative do not attend parliament without special leave of absence then the seat of that paramount chiefbecomes vacant. If he ceases to hold the qualifications in terms of section 26, such as losing his citizenship, or is removed from the voters' roll by reason of infringement under the disqualification clause which is in section 25 ; if it is a paramount chief or chief, where he resigns from his position of chieftainship or by reason of disciplinary action he is removed from his position of chief, then a vacancy occurs. Now, under subsection (2) of the same section provision is made that where a chief or paramount loses his seat or vacates his seat in terms of subsection 30(1 )(c), then he shall also vacate his chieftainship. The Assembly, however, can by resolution decide that the chief, be he paramount or an ordinary chief, should not vacate his chieftainship. Immediately that resolution is accepted by this Assembly the affected chief or paramount chief becomes a member of the Assembly and the effect of that reinstatement is that he becomes a member of the Assembly from the date that the resolution is taken by this House . Those are the provisions under section 30, Mr Chairman, and I move.
Clause 31 put and agreed to. Speaker and Deputy Speaker. 32. (1 ) Every National Assembly shall, at its first sitting and before proceeding with the dispatch of any other business, elect by ballot from amongst its members a Speaker and a Deputy Speaker. (2) The Speaker or the Deputy Speaker shall vacate his office (a) ifhe ceases to be a member of the National Assembly; or (b) if he resigns from such office ; or (c) if he is removed from office by a resolution of the Assembly. (3) Ifthe office of Speaker or Deputy Speaker becomes vacant the National Assembly shall in the manner described in subsection ( 1 ) elect a new Speaker or Deputy Speaker, as the case may be. (4) The Speaker or in his absence the Deputy Speaker shall preside at all sittings of the National Assembly: Provided that the secretary of the Assembly shall preside at the first sitting of the Assembly until a Speaker is elected . (5) The person who holds office as Speaker at the time of any dissolution of the National Assembly shall be deemed to be the Speaker until a Speaker has been elected under subsection (1).
Clause 30 put and agreed to. MR K M GUZANA : Now, section 32 gives the Assembly the power to elect a Speaker and a Deputy Speaker and this is done by secret ballot. Those officials are members of the Legislative Assembly and if they should cease to be such members then they vacate the seats they hold . They could resign from their positions and create a vacancy, yet it is possible for this House by resolution, should it feel so persuaded, to remove a Speaker or a Deputy Speaker from the Chair. In that event the House again proceeds to fill the vacancy by way of a ballot election, Now, these two officials are the Chairmen of the House and they preside when parliament is in session, but at the first session of a parliament it becomes necessary that a Speaker and a Deputy Speaker be elected and the Secretary is hereby authorized to take the Chair in order to conduct the election. Now, the National Assembly may well be disolved and usually this is followed by a general election, and there are certain functions connected with the election of members to this House which must be performed by the Speaker, as for instance chairing the electoral college of chiefs. In order that these functions should be performed by the proper official there is the saving in subsection (5) which states that the Speaker will continue to be the Speaker even after dissolution of the National Assembly until another Speaker is elected in terms of subsection (1). This is a provision of convenience in order that all official matters can be properly despatched by an official who has legal authority to despatch such business. I move, Mr Chairman.
Sessions of Parliament.
31. (1) The President may by proclamation in the Gazette appoint such times for the holding of sessions of Parliament as he may think fit and he may also, by proclamament as he may think fit and he may also, by proclamation in the Gazette or otherwise, prorogue Parliament. (2) There shall be a session of Parliament at least once in every year so that a period of twelve months shall not intervene between the last sitting of Parliament in one session and its first sitting in the next session. (3) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 74(1), the session of the Legislative Assembly which was being held prior to the commencement of this Act shall be resumed without delay after such commencement and such resumed session shall be the first session of the first Parliament established by this Act. MR K M GUZANA : This section merely provides for the modus operandi to be used by the President in summoning parliament. When sessions have to meet he will call parliament together by way of proclamation in the Gazette or otherwise. He may also prorogue parliament by proclamation in the Gazette or other wise. Subsection (2) provides that on period of twelve months shall elapse between sessions of parliament . In other words, put in simple language there shall be a session of parliament every year and there could very well be two sessions of parliament in any given year, but the period between sessions shall be not longer than twelve months at most. Subsection 31 (3) is of some significance It provides that notwithstanding the provisions of section 74( 1 ), which repeals certain laws listed in Schedule 11 , and amongst those laws is the Transkei Constitution Act, this Assembly will continue to be a properly constituted body and the session which shall have sat prior to the coming into operation of this Act shall continue as a properly constituted body and sit after the commencement of that
Clause 32 put and agreed to. Life of Parliament.
33. (1) Every Parliament shall continue for five years from the date of the first meeting thereof and no longer but may at any time be dissolved by the President by proclamation in the Gazette. (2) A proclamation under subsection ( 1) shall provide for a general election to be held on a date specified in the proclamation for the election of the members ofthe 336.
National Assembly referred to in section 22(c). (3) Notwithstanding any dissolution of Parliament under subsection (1 ), Parliament shall during the period following such dissolution up to and including the day immediately preceeding polling day in the general election referred to in subsection (2) be competent to perform its functions as if no dissolution had occured and during such period. (a) the President may summon Parliament for the despatch of business ; and (b) every person who at the date of such dissolution is a member of the National Assembly shall remain such a member. MR K M GUZANA: Mr Chairman, here we have the life of parliament prescribed . Of course, we know there is one parliament but under that parliament there may be many sessions of that parliament. The life of parliament is five years. It cannot exceed the period of five years but the President has power by proclamation in the Gazette to dissolve parliament even if the period of five years has not expired. In that eventuality there is bound to be a general election and the notice relating to the holding of a general election is embodied in the proclamation dissolving parliament. In that notice the date of the election is designated But certain functions still have to be performed by a formally constituted body in spite of the fact that parliament has been dissolved, and therefore the dissolution of parliament does not divest the members of the dissolved parliament of their membership and their official capacity as members of the now dissolved parliament. This means, in effect, that they continue to be members of parliament vested with those functions until the day immediately before polling day, because between dissolution of parliament and the election of members of parliament there might be some business of parliament which has to be despatched and which cannot wait for a session of the new parliament to sit. Therefore the President, in spite of the fact that he has dissolved parliament, may call parliament together in order to deal with such business. For instance, a state of war arises between dissolution of parliament and polling day, or a national disaster may have occured of such magnitude as to justify financial assistance from the Government, and a Part Appropriation Bill may have to go through. The significance of this provision is that you, as a member of the dissolved parliament, will continue to draw your parliamentary allowance untill the day immediately before polling day. I think for that reason alone members will support this clause. (Laughter) MR M P LUDIDI : Mr Chairman, I wish to ask the members of the recess committee to give us an illustration as to when it would be necessary for the President to dissolve parliament before the end of the period of five years. MR GUZANA : That situation occurs where, for instance, the Prime Minister and his party have lost the confidence ofthe House. A split may occur in the governing party on the decision of an important issue, which in effect means that the members of the House have no confidence in the Government. In such a situation the Government cannot go through its legislative programme because it does not enjoy the majority in the House. This may occur, for instance, where the governing party has a majority of one or two members in the House so that the Government is always in a state of extreme anxiety as to the health of its members and the attendance of its members, and if one or two fail to attend it does not command the majority in the House. The Prime Minister then tenders his resignation to the President. The President may call upon the Leader of the Opposition to form a government, but the Opposition is in the minority by two members and so there cannot be any stability if the Opposition which has a minority forms the Government. The President accepts the resignation tender-
ed by the Prime Minister, dissolves parliament and calls for a general election. These are some of the situations which may arise. I move ,Mr Chairman. Clause 33 put and agreed to. Quorum in Assembly.
34. It shall be necessary for at least thirty-five members of the National Assembly to be present to constitute a meeting of the Assembly for the exercise of its powers. MR K M GUZANA: Mr Chairman, this clause provides for a quorum --- that is, a minimum of attendance before a session of parliament can conduct its business - which is 35, so that if members become highly inebriated and to not find their way here (Laughter) or if there should be any side attractions more conducive to absenteeism than attendance and a quorum cannot be provided then the sitting adjourns. I move. MR L L MGUDLWA : Mr Chairman, sometimes it is likely that certain chiefs are attending some important business and therefore cannot come to the House. Similarly, I may be away on special duties and cannot attend the session. Why should there be barriers by making such low minimum number to form the quorum ? May we hear clearly from those members who are not even elected by this House but were appointed by that certain chief. D/CHAIRMAN : Please stick to the provisions of the clause. MR MGUDLWA: The motion stated that the members should be elected by this House. D/CHAIRMAN : You are not talking about the quorum. MR GUZANA : Mr Chairman, I do not mind the hon, member asking his question but I would like to hear him more clearly. He has asked by what authority I move these clauses . Well, I wish he had challenged my membership of this committee much earlier and, if anything, I think the hon Chief Mlindazwe from Bizana did indicate before we adjourned that the other members also should react to these matters. Now, I do not need to give you a razorblade for you to understand that. You have asked why so low a number. If the number were high then the process of legislation could very well be obstructed and nullified by a large number of members keeping away from the House, and no legislation can take place because we cannot command a quorum. Thirty-five out of 150 is not too low a number. You have no doubt had experience where the Chairman has had to ring the bell because he could not command a quorum in this House on previous occassions, and I have noticed on such occassions the Government Chief Whip has had to run out and call the members in from the public highways. MR MGUDLWA: This reply has cut me to the quick. (Laughter) On this very point when the last speaker said that certain members have to be called in from the streets by the Chief Whip .... D/CHAIRMAN : I don't think I am going to give this hon member the liberty to speak if he continues to digress. We are on very serious business and have no time to waste. Challenge what you are challenging in this section and get an explanation from the committee. Clause 34 put and agreed to. Voting in Assembly. 35. ( 1) All questions in the Assembly shall be determined by a majority of votes of members present other than the Speaker or, in his absence, the Deputy Speaker. (2) In the event of any equality of votes the Speaker, or in his absence the Deputy Speaker, shall have and exercise a casting vote. MR K M GUZANA : This clause prescribes that all matters of the Assembly shall be decided by majority vote and that decision is made by the members excluding the 337.
the hon member continues to waste the time of the House with these irrelevant points. Please call him to order. D/CHAIRMAN: Will the hon member discuss the subject under issue. MR MGUDLWA : Though I am discussing the matter under issue, no-one is going to stop us discussing this. We are doing our duty, Mr Chairman. D/CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Before we proceed I really want to warn this House. We have a great task before us and I would like those who make comments to make serious comments relevant to the subject matter. Clause 37 put and agreed to.
Speaker if he is chairing the sitting, or the Deputy if he is chairing the sitting. Should there be an equality of votes for and against, the Speaker or, in leiu of the Speaker, the Deputy Speaker shall exercise his casting vote. I move.
Clause 35 put and agreed to. Penalty or sitting or voting as member of Assembly when disqualified. 36. Any person who is by law incapable of sitting as a member of the National Assembly and who, while so incapable and knowing or having reasonable grounds for knowing that he is so incapable, sits or votes a member of the National Assembly shall be liable to a penalty of twenty rand for each day on which he so sits or votes, and such penalty may be recovered on behalf of the Treasury of the Republic by action in any competent court. MR K M GUZANA: Now, it may well happen that a person who is a member becomes discqualified from membership ofthe House, and these disqualifiations are listed under section 25(1), so that we may find a situation where a person is lawfully elected to this House but during his membership he becomes disqualified and is incapable of sitting as a member of this House. He knows he has been disqualified or may reasonably be taken to know he has become disqualified. Assuming that such member continues to sit in the sittings of parliament and votes on matters before parliament, he shall be liable for a penalty of R20 for each day. If he should sit for two days knowing he is disqualified it is R40 and so on, and then he must pay this to the Government . Should he refuse to pay then the Treasury can sue this person civilly in a competent court. This merely seeks to keep members on the alert as to their competence to continue as members of parliament. In other words, it should be on the conscience of every member of the Assembly. I move, Mr Chairman.
Access to proceedings of Assembly and freedom of speech and debate and other immunities. 38. (1 ) Subject to the rules and orders referred to in section 37 (a) the proceedings of the National Assembly shall be open to the public ; and (b) there shall be freedom of speech and debate in and before the Assembly and any committee thereof for every member of the Assembly and such freedom shall not be liable to be impeached or questioned in any court or place outside the Assembly. (2) No civil or criminal proceedings shall be instituted against any member ofthe National Assembly, nor shall such member be liable to arrest or imprisonment or for damages, by reason of any matter or thing which he may have said in or before the Assembly or any committee thereof. (3) No person shall be liable in damages or otherwise for any act done within the legal powers of the Assembly and under its warrant or other authority. (4) No member or servant of the National Assembly shall ,while in attendance on the Assembly, be obliged to appear as a party or as witness in any civil proceedings in any court that holds its sittings elsewhere than at the the seat ofthe Assembly, and a certificate by the Speaker stating that such member or servant is in attendance on the Assembly shall be sufficient proof of such attendance.
Clause 36 put and agreed to. Rules of procedure,
MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman, I would not mind enjoying the liberty of the hon member for Engcobo and digressing, but I will keep to the point. Subsection 38(1)(a) provides that the deliberations of this House shall be open to the public as they are open now. Then there shall be liberty of speech and debate either during a sitting of this Assembly or when it is in committee, and you can get away almost with murder in so far as what you say here is concerned, because such freedom shall not be liable to be impeached or questioned in any court or place outside the Assembly. In other words, this provision gives members of this House absolute parliamentary privilege and in order to spell this out more clearly, no civil or criminal proceedings can be instituted against a member of this House based on what he has said here, nor can he be arrested or imprisoned because of what he said here. This matter may even be said under a petition or under a motion or under a bill or otherwise in any manner or form or shape or presentation, nor will you be liable for damages where a person may seek to found an action for damages on what was said by a member here. Such action has no legal foundation and a person is prohibited from instituting an action against a member. Now, it sometimes happens that whilst parliament is in session a member may be the defendant in a civil action or plaintiff in an action before a court sitting at a place other than the place where the Assembly meets. This subsection (4) provides that you shall not be obliged to attend at such hearing whilst parliament is in session, but if the action is before a court sitting where parliament sits then you are obliged to attend as a plaintiff or a defendant. This privi-
37. (1) Subject to the provisions of this Act the National Assembly may regulate its own procedure and may from time to time make rules and orders regulating the order and conduct of its business and proceedings. (2) Until the Assembly makes rules and orders under subsection (1) the rules and orders which applied immediately prior to the resumption of the session of the Assembly in terms of section 31 (3) shall continue to apply mutatis mutandis to the proceedings in the Assembly except to the extent to which rules and orders are inconsistent with the provisions of this Act.
MR K M GUZANA : Clause 37 merely provides for the making of rules and drawing up of orders, regulation of procedure, control of business, and all such powers are now being vested in the Assembly, subject to the provisions of this Act. Subsection (2) continues the operation of the existing rules of this House until new rules are made, but any provision of these rules which is inconsistent or repugnant to the provisions of the present Act will ipso facto fall away and be substituted by provisional rules until the final rules have been drawn up. MR L L MGUDLWA : Mr Chairman, while it was stated that rules and regulations are going to be created, why must we go empty-handed ? When we are going to take upon ourselves these questions we must have something on which we can rely and when we consult we usually tell one another what to do. CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, 338.
lege extends not only to members of the Assembly but also to servants of the Assembly who are in attendance, such as the ushers for instance, and includes the interpreters , too, and all that is required is for the Speaker to issue a certificate to that effect, which certificate is produced to the court and your attendance is excussed . I move, Mr Chairman. MR L L MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman, I have heard what has been said by the speaker. One year it was alleged that I was keeping a baboon and I was taken out of the House. (Laughter) I was just taken out of the Assembly and there were no provisions of this nature. I want to say in the interests of someone else who may have a baboon that he should not be thrown out of this House. (Laughter) D/CHAIRMAN : I don't think I am happy with this hon member for Engcobo . CHIEF MINISTER : Order him out. D/CHAIRMAN: I really want to give him a last warning. I will not allow him to digress. You are apparently more interested in entertaining this House than in bringing facts for discussion. MR MGUDLWA : Mr Chairman, I sympathize with the hon member who said I should be thrown out. It is like people who said "Let him be crucified". (Laughter) MR M P LUDIDI : Mr Chairman, I understand that people will be exempted from attending court proceedings if they are attending the session, except if the court proceedings are taking place at the seat of the Assembly. Does this also mean that members of the regional authority who have to attend a regional authority meeting other than in Umtata during the sitting of the Assembly will also be exempt from attending a meeting of the regional authority ? M/HEALTH : Do you mean to attend a case? MR LUDIDI : No, the members of the regional authority have in the past been excused from the House to attend meetings of their regional authorities . Now, I want to know if the members of the recess committee thought about this as well. MR GUZANA : May I refer the hon member to section 38(4), which says no member shall be obliged to appear. If he wants to attend he can do so, but there is nothing which compels him to go there. In other words, if he is plaintiff in a matter he does not lose his action because he has not attended, because this subsection provides that he is not obliged to attend. That means, in effect, that the court will postpone the case rather than dismiss your claim. Now, nothing has been said about regional authority courts or regional authority meetings, so if you are a member of the regional authority you can ask for leave to attend. Clause 38 put and agreed to. Bills appropriating public funds or imposing taxation. 39. (1) Any bill which appropriates revenue or moneys for the ordinary annual services of the Governement shall deal only with such appropriation and shall be known as an appropriation bill. (2) The National Assembly shall not (a) consider or pass any vote, resolution, address or bill for the appropriation of any part of the public revenue or of any tax or impost for any purpose whatsoever, or (b) proceed with any bill for the imposition of taxation or the alteration of taxation otherwise than by reduction, except upon the recommendation of the President conveyed by message during the session in which such vote, resolution, address or bill is proposed. MR K M GUZANA : This clause deals with rands and cents. It merely says when this House has a bill dealing with money and divided up for the different departments and has estimates indicating how much is given to each department and how much in respect of each head and subhead, that is called an appropriation bill . Now, the
Assembly as an Assembly cannot bring in a bill and say so much money should be spent for such-and-such a venture or this amount should be used for such a project. In other words, this Assembly cannot of its own motion bring an appropriation bill before this House . This is a matter exclusively in the hands of the Minister of Finance. A member cannot by resolution, for instance, say they want R10 000 to be used for reconstructing the road from Engcobo to the Great Place of the Mgudlwas. MR L L MGUDLWA: What about R50 million before going into independence ? MR GUZANA : That again has been brought before us by the Minister of Finance, not by a member ofthe Assembly. The Assembly is also prohibited from seeking to impose a tax, nor can it alter the mode of taxation . The only power which it has is, for instence, to move for a reduction. Thus a member can put in an amendment that the Minister's salary under subhead so-and-so be reduced by R10 000. Any matter, therefore, which has got to deal with the appropriation of funds shall be motivated by the recommendation of the President and this comes through to the Assembly through the Minister of Finance. I move. Clause 39 put and agreed to. Assent to bills. 40. (1) When a bill is prescribed to the President for his assent he shall declare according to his discretion that he assents thereto or that he withholds assent. (2) When the President withholds his assent the bill shall be returned to the National Assembly : Provided that the President may return to the Assembly any bill presented to him under subsection (1) and may at the same time transmit any amendment which he may recommend and the Assembly may deal with the recommendation. MR K M GUZANA : Here, Mr Chairman, provision is made for bills which have gone through the various stages of legislation to be assented to by the President. He also has the right to withhold his assent but he operates always as President in Council, so that it is suggested it is unlikely that he would not act on the advice of the Executive which shall be taking to him a bill passed by the Assembly. He may feel sufficiently strongly on a matter to make recommendations amending some provisions of the bill. Such suggestions by the President delay that attachment of his signature to the bill, and the bill together with his recommendations comes to the Assembly. The Assembly considers the recommendations and it may well accept them or reject them or modify his recommendaitons. The bill then goes back to the President for his signature. He will be a very queer man if he then withholds his signature. MR K M NOTA: What will happen? MR GUZANA: He will be removed from the office of President, but this will be after persuasion and advice from his council . These are matters of very delicate protocol and representation, and it is unlikely that a situation such as that would occur in spite of the provision that he may withhold his assent, this merely giving him an opportunity to express his views on a matter on which he feels strongly. Clause 40 put and agreed to. Signature and enrolment of laws. 41. A bill shall become law upon being assented to by the President and the secretary of the Assembly shall cause a copy ofthe Act in the Xhosa language (together with a copy thereof in the English and Afrikaans languages) to be enrolled of record in the office of the registrar of the Supreme Court of Transkei and such copies shall be conclusive evidence of the provisions of such law. MR K M GUZANA : Clause 41 merely states that a bill becomes a law or an Act after being assented to by the President.. When he has assented to it the secretary of the House shall cause a copy of the Act in the Xhosa language
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the House that instead of Afrikaans it should be Sesotho and English . Clause 41 as amended put and agreed to. Promulgation and commencement of law. 42. (1) The secretary of the Assembly shall cause every Act to be published in the Gazette. (2) Subject to the provisions mutatis mutandis of section 16A of the Interpretation Act, 1957 (Act 33 of 1957) an Act shall come into operation on the date of its publication in the Gazette unless the Act itself provides that it shall come into operation on another date or on a date to be fixed by proclamation thereunder. MR GUZANA : Mr Chairman, the Act as passed and assented to has to be published in terms of subsection (1) in the Gazette, and this is the responsibility of the secretary of the Assembly. Now, on publication the provisions of the Act become immediately operative and have the force oflaw. It may happen, however, that a law is not required to be operative on publication. In such circumstances there is usually provision that this law will become operative on such-and-such a date or that it shall become operative as from a date to be fixed by the President by notice in the Gazette. This is provided for in subsection 42(2). Clause 42 put and agreed to.
together with a copy thereof in the English and Afrikaans languages, to be enrolled of record in the office of the registrar of the Supreme Court of Transkei. If there is any dispute as to the version which should prevail and which should be accepted as the law on a matter, then the copies so filed with the registrar of the Supreme Court of Transkei shall be regarded as conclusive evidence of the provisions of such bill. I move, Mr Chairman. MR W S MBANGA : I second. MR L L MGUDLWA : Mr Chairman, may it be made clear to me because under section 16 there is an amendment and in that amendment the Sesotho, English and Afrikaans languages are included . When it is stated under this section 41 that it shall be written out in Xhosa, who in this House does not know Xhosa ? I do not want to take things for granted but there is an indication that appeals will be taken to Bloemfontein. How will you be in a position to take an appeal to Bloemfontein in Xhosa ? Who knows Xhosa in Bloemfontein ? People who live there use Afrikaans. If you are charged with assault with intent, what do you plead ? MR P S KAKUDI : Mr Chairman, we have already had some problems with sections similar to this one and I feel rather weak even to express my opinion in regard to this clause 41. Nevertheless I would like to find out from the recess committee what justice there is in this clause . I will not necessarily work on any suspicion I already have as to the reaction of the recess committee with regard to this clause. In the first place the Sesotho-speaking section of the Transkei are citizens of the Transkei . MR GUZANA: Just on a point of order, Mr Chairman, I do not want to disturb the hon member but I want to assure him that the matter was canvassed and, I think he agrees with me, very clearly and adequately and in a responsible manner in open session of this Assembly. MR KAKUDI : On a different clause. MR GUZANA: Yes, and that clause may well be relevant to what is provided in this clause. If you have a suggestion, may we have it without really repeating all the arguments with all due respect, arguments which are known. MR KAKUDI : I was coming to that. Perhaps in the form of some compromise, particularly in regard to what the last speaker has said. I have said those Sothos are citizens as well as taxpayers, yet the Afrikaans and English languages have to be given a version. I would suggest to the recess committee that in view of their citizenship and the Sothos being taxpayers, could there please be a version in the Sotho language, otherwise it will sound more like an insult. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR GUZANA: I think this is a matter into which we can look, Mr Chairman. May I move an adjournment until 9.15. The discussion was adjourned. AFTER ADJOURNMENT The discussion on Clause 41 of the draft Constitution was resumed. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, with regard to section 41 where we have the words "together with a copy thereof in the English and Afrikaans languages", I wish to make the observation that these documents will be intended for the Transkeian citizens and in the meantime hardly any Transkeian citizen is Afrikaans-speaking. In my own view, instead of the word "Afrikaans" we should put "Sesotho". That is how I feel, and that is how the committee feels. It will be very costly for the Thank you, Mr Chairman. Government if a copy of all these Acts should be enrolled in all these languages. MR L L MGUDLWA : But what about that section where Xhosa shall be the official language of the Transkei but Sesotho, English and Afrikaans may also be used ? CHIEF MINISTER : It says "may" and not "must". CHAIRMAN : It appears it has been agreed upon by
Matters of privilege. 43. (1) Anything said by any member of the National Assembly in or before the Assembly or any committee thereof, whether as such a member or as a witness shall be deemed to be a matter of privilege. (2) If, in any civil or criminal proceedings which have been instituted for or on account or in respect of any matter of privilege, there is produced to the court by the defendant or the accused a certificate by the Speaker or the secretary of the National Assembly stating that the matter in question is one which concerns the privilege of the Assembly, the court shall forthwith stay the proceedings which shall thereupon be deemed to have been finally determined. MR K M GUZANA : Subsection ( 1 ) further emphasizes the privilege of members of the Assembly when engaged in debate either under a petition or a bill or a motion or a resolution. That protection is now specifically described as a protection deemed to be a matter of privilege, but should these matters come before a court of law either in civil or criminal actions and it is deemed that the issue is based on a matter of privilege which enjoys the immunity provided for in terms of the Act, and a certificate issued by the Speaker of the House or the secretary of the National Assembly to the effect that the matter raised at the criminal or civil proceedings is a matter deemed to be one of privilege then the proceedings are stayed and in fact, they are deemed to be finally determined.
I move Mr Chairman . M/EDUCATION : I second. MR L L MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman, when these certificates have been produced someone may ask where these people were. What will they say in reply?
MR GUZANA : There is here no provision that a particular person should produce the certificate, so that the party who seeks to avail himself of the defence that this matter is deemed to be a matter of privilege produces the certificate. I move Mr Chairman. Clause 43 put and agreed to. CHAPTER 6 THE JUDICATURE Establishment and constitution of Supreme Court. 44. (1 ) There is hereby established a Supreme Court of
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Transkei in which shall be vested the judicial power of the Republic and which shall consist of the Chief Justice and such number of other judges as may be determined by the President from time to time. (2) The Supreme Court of Transkei shall be a court of record and shall have for its use a distinctive seal in the design prescibed in Schedule 7, which shall be in the custody of the registrar of the court. (3) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 74(1), the High Court established under section 50 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963, shall as constituted immediately prior to the commencement of this Act be deemed to be the Supreme Court of Transkei and to have been established and constituted as such by subsection (1). MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman, here we have provisions relating to the judicature. Subsection (1) provide for the establishment of a Supreme Court of Transkei and it shall have the power of decision in judicial matters. It shall consist of a Chief Justice and a number ofother judges and that number shall be determined by the President from time to time. That implies that is there if an increase in the volume of work for the Supreme Court, additional judges may be appointed . That work includes appeals ; criminal hearings, where the Supreme Court is the court of first instance ; civil actions which fall beyond the jurisdiction of the magistrate's court ; divorce matters ; petitions and matters coming before the court by way of motion ; actions on insolvency, etc., and if the work begins to grow then more judges will be added to assist the Chief Justice. Now, all proceedings before this court, unlike the court of the tribal authority, shall be recorded and this court will therefore be described as a court of record . There will be a seal of the Supreme Court as prescribed in Schedule 7. Now, if you look at Schedule 3 you will find the coat of arms there and in a circle round that coat of arms shall imprinted the words "INKUNDLA EPHAKAMILEYO YASETRANSKEI” . That shall be the distinctive seal of the Supreme Court of Transkei and will be kept by the registrar ofthe court. Now, the Transkei has at the present moment a High Court which was established in terms of the Constitution Act 1963, and that court so established shall be deemed to have been established under the present Constitution Act in order to ensure continuity- that is in terms of subsection 44(1). The present Transkei High Court will merely change its name to be the Supreme Court of Transkei as if constituted in terms of the provisions of this section. I move. MR P S KAKUDI : Mr Chairman, just a suggestion in regard to the seal of the Supreme Court. To me it would sound like the Supreme Court of the Transkei . Wouldn't it be more appropriate to this new independent Transkei if if we said "INKUNDLA EPHAKAMILEYO YETRANSKEI"? CHIEF MINISTER : If you say the Supreme Court of England it would be "yaseEngland", so the word "yase" means of a place. You need not say "the ". I have just given an example that when you say the High Court of England you cannot say "yeEngland". You would say "yaseEngland", and the same with Lesotho - it would be "yaseLesotho", or in other words "belonging to Lesotho". That is high Xhosa. Only the people from Kentani and Willowvale can understand that. (Laughter) MR H PAMLA: In other words it is " belonging to” and not "of the". CHIEF MINISTER : Yes . MR L L MGUDLWA: There is something which worries me a bit in section 44(1) where this Supreme Court ofTranskei which shall be vested with the judicial power of the Republic and which shall consist of the ChiefJustice and such number of other judges as may be determined by the President. This curious figure, the President (Laughter)
who may determine from time to time, why should it not be the Chief Justice, who may be better qualified to do that, because the President may be appointed . . . . I may be President. (Laughter) MR GUZANA: If you are President, hon member, certainly we will insist that you exercise your powers in council, so that the President will determine in council where you will have your Minister of Justice and other Cabinet Ministers. As you know, the President must have the appointment counter-signed by a Minister and since this relates to the Minister of Justice, obviously the Minister of Justice will countersign what he says. This will exclude irresponsible action on the part of the President. MR P N NKOSIYANE : In this Supreme Court will attorneys from other places be allowed ? MR GUZANA: Mr Chairman, the present position with regard to advocates is that they are enrolled in the Supreme Court of South Africa to practice in the Supreme Court. They are also enrolled in the Supreme Court of other states like Lesotho and Swaziland and also Rhodesia. This enables them to appear in the Supreme Courts of those respective states . Now, it is really the practising advocate who takes the initiative to see that he is registered in these courts to enable him to appear before the court of that other country when so instructed, so that they will not be forced to register but it is in their interests to register as advocates practising in the Supreme Court of Transkei. MR NKOSIYANE: It is therefore clear that an attorney or advocate who is not registered in the Republic ofTranskei cannot defend any cases in this court. MR GUZANA : Well, the advocate will tell you that he cannot practise here. MR PAMLA: Does he know the difference between an attorney and an advocate? MR GUZANA: In any case you don't approach the advocate, you approach the attorney and with the attorney you nominate the advocate who will appear on your behalf. The attorney knows in terms of Horter's Legal Diary what advocates are able to what courts and in which countries. The hon member for Engcobo wants to know why I did not tell the hon for Mqanduli about this since we both come from there. I wasn't asked . Clause 44 put and agreed to. Jurisdiction of Supreme Court. 45. Subject to the provisions of this Act and of any other law (including the common law) the Supreme Court of Transkei shall (a) have jurisdiction over all persons residing or being in the Republic of Transkei ; and (b) have power (i) to hear and determine all civil and criminal matters, proceedings or causes arising within the Republic of Transkei ; (ii) to hear and determine appeals from all inferior courts; and (iii) to review the proceedings of all inferior courts. MR K M GUZANA : This spells out the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court of Transkei : In respect of persons its iurisdiction over all persons residing or being in the Republic of Transkei, not necessarily citizens of Transkei, so that a person who is not a citizen of Transkei may come into Transkei and commit arson or murder or rape. He is then subject to the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court by reason of the fact that the offence was committed within the boundaries of Transkei . This court can hear civil matters where, for instance, you bought a bus, you failed to pay the instalments and the amount involved, which is the balance for which you are being sued, is in excess of the jurisdiction of a magistrate's court — such a matter is a civil matter which will come properly before the Supreme Court of Transkei, and such matters as cannot come before a regional or a
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tribal authority court. Criminal matters that is, the more serious crimes such as rape, murder, robbery -- which have occurred within the area of jurisdiction of the Supreme Court of Transkei will come before that court. They will hear appeals, for instance, where a person is convicted of stock theft and is not satisfied with the judgement of the magistrate's court and takes the matter up on appeal, that appeal lies to the Supreme Court of Transkei ; also to deal with cases which come up for review such as where the sentence is over three months ' imprisonment, when it is automatically brought up for review. If the sentence is less than three months and you are not satisfied but feel you should not appeal, you set in process the motion of review so that the matter comes before the judge. My friend from Engcobo wants to know what happens in the case of Black and White. MR L L MGUDLWA : The Immorality Act . MR GUZANA: This section deals with all persons, black, white, yellow, spotted -- any colour. If the Immorality Act continues to be applicable in Transkei then such criminal actions are heard before the magistrate's court. MR KG NOTA: Separately? MR GUZANA : Cases will be separated only where the parties do not both plead guilty. If the one pleads guilty and the other not guilty there is usually a separation of trials. MR S P BHURALI : Mr Chairman, I would like just to have an explanation What is the position in regard to matters where certain criminals are to be extradited or certain politicians will seek asylum in Transkei ? Let us say someone comes here having committed a political offence somewhere and we regard that person not in the light of such accusations . If that man begs ayslum here what is the position ? Is it covered here or will it be the subject of treaty? MR GUZANA : This is a matter which can be dealt with under an Extradition Act where there is an agreement between two or more countries that is a man offends in one country and flees to another country, that country when so requested by the first country will send the offender back to the first country to face the music. A person may flee as a political fugitive to another country, say to the Transkei, and ask for political asylum . The matter is usually dealt with on its merits in terms of the Extradition Act to determine whether or not the offence from which he is running away is regarded as an offence in the country to which he ran -- that is , politically speaking - because in other offences like Fraud or extortion most countries have criminal provisions against such practices and extradition is easy. The concept behind that arrangement is that the other country should not become the escape ground for all criminals. CHIEF J NTOLA : Mr Chairman, I would like to ask the recess committee the mode of hanging and what arrangements are being made in connection with capital offences. MR GUZANA : Mr Chairman, we do not provide for that sort of thing in a Constitution. If you want to know, the registrar has advertised for a hangman and each act of execution will earn the hangman R50, but it is still a matter open to this Assembly in its deliberations and in its bill whether or not to abolish hanging as a form of punishment. All the facilities for hanging, if this Assembly does not abolish hanging, will be made available and a person who wants to know how it is done need only commit the offence and then he will surely know. (Laughter) Clause 45 put and agreed to. Appointment and remuneration of judges. 46. (1 ) Subject to the provisions of subsection (2) the President shall from time to time as occasion may require appoint a fit and proper person as Chief Justice or as other judge of the Supreme Court. (2) No person shall be appointed under subsection (1) – (a) to the office of Chief Justice, unless he holds or has
at any time held office as a judge of the Supreme Court of Transkei or as a judge of a superior court in the Republic of South Africa or in such other country as Parliament may prescribe by resolution ; or (b) to any other office of judge, unless — (i) he has practised as an advocate in the Supreme Court or in any other superior court referred to in paragraph (a) for a period of not less than ten years ; or (ii) he has previously held office as a judge in any such court; or (c) to the office of Chief Justice or other judge, if he is of or above the age of sixty-five years. (3) If at any time the office of any judge of the Supreme Court is vacant or if any such judge is for any reason unable to perform his duties, the President may appoint to act temporarily in the place of such judge any person who qualifies for appointment under subsection (1) and (2), including any person who so qualify but for his age: Provided that (a) the Minister of Justice may appoint any such person to act as a judge for a period not exceeding one month; and (b) no person other than a person who complies with the provisions of subsection (2)(a) shall be appointed to act as ChiefJustice. (4) (a) The remuneration and other conditions of service including the retirement ages and retirement benefits of judge sof the Supreme Court shall be determined by Parliament. (b) The remuneration of a judge shall not at any time be reduced while he continues in office. (5) (a) Save as provided in subsection (6) every judge of the Supreme Court shall, before entering upon the duties of his office take and subscribe an oath substantially in the form prescribed in Schedule 8. (b) Such oath shall be taken before a judge of the Supreme Court or, if a judge is not available, before a justice of the peace . (6) Any person holding office as Chief Justice or other judge of the High Court referred to in section 44(3) immediately prior to the commencement of this Act shall be deemed to have been appointed as Chief Justice or other judge of the Supreme Court of Transkei, as the case may be, in terms of subsection ( 1 ) of this section and if he has already taken an oath of office in such court, it shall not be necessary for him, before discharging any function under this Act, to make and subscribe the oath referred to in subsection (5).
MR K M GUZANA : Now, here we have the appointment of judges and their pay. The President will appoint a fit and proper person as Chief Justice or other judge ofthe Supreme Court. I take it that those people are people who have had at least ten years' experience practising at the Bar and they must be fit and proper persons . MR H PAMLA: Define that. MR GUZANA: He is trained in law; he holds an LL B Degree; he has practised for at least ten years successfully ; he has taken silk. Such person is a fit person. Now, a proper person is one of good character; a man of sobriety; a man whose integrity cannot be impeached ; who is readily acceptable in all societies of the learned fraternity ; a man who has disabused his mind of prejudice either based on colour or class or wealth or poverty . I would like to use that yardstick to measure some of the members. (Laughter) Now, no-one shall be appointed to this office of ChiefJustice unless he holds or has at any time before held office as a judge in this court-namely, the Supreme Court of Transkei or has been a judge in a superior court of the Republic of
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South Africa or has been a judge in a superior court of any other country whose judges are taken to be fit and proper persons to be Chief Justices. Such a person can then be elevated to the position of Chief Justice. Now, to be elevated to a judgeship, at least you must have practised for a period ofnot less than ten years or have been a judge in any Supreme Court. Further, if you are appointed to the office of Chief Justice or other judge you must not be of or above the age of65 years. Now, should a post be vacant or if any judge is unable to perform his duties there may be a judge appointed temporarily to act for him in terms of subsection (1 ) and (2). Such person, of course, can only be appointed to act for a period not exceeding a month. A person appointed to the post of Chief Justice must satisfy the qualifications for appointment as a Chief Justice. Now, subsection (4)(a) lays down what is merely a permissive provision for this Assembly to determine the salary and allowances ; to determine the conditions of service and retirement benefits of these judges ; and if a judge is holding the office of judgeship his salary cannot be reduced whilst he is holding office. It may be increased , but certainly not reduced. If you turn to Schedule 8 you will there see the oath to which he must subscribe on going into office, and this oath should be taken before a judge of the Supreme Court of Transkei or a justice of the peace. Subsection (6) continues in official position the judges of the Transkei High Court into the judgeship of the Supreme Court of Transkei. In other words, whoever is a judge of the Transkeian High Court before independence in terms of Act No. 48 of 1963 will become, on the commencement of this Act, a judge of the Supreme Court of Transkei. It will not be necessary for such person to subscribe for the second time to an oath of allegiance and to an oath which binds him to dispense without justice fear or favour. I move, Mr Chairman. Clause 46 put and agreed to.
Judge may not hold other office of profit without permission. 47. Unless authorized thereto by the President a judge of the Supreme Court shall not accept or hold any other office of profit or receive in respect of any service rendered by him any remuneration other than the remuneration referred to in section 46(4). MR K M GUZANA : This clause provides for a prohibition so that a judge has no other job which gives him remuneration other than the job of being a judge. In other words, he cannot be employed by a commercial concern whilst he is a judge. He cannot, for instance, be the Secretary of the Department of Justice whilst he is a judge. The provision merely seeks to insulate him against influence which may come by way of a pecuniary obligation. I move. Clause 48 put and agreed to. Removal of judge from office. 48. The Chief Justice or other judge of the Supreme Court shall not be removed from office except by the President but no judge shall be so removed except upon an address from the National Assembly praying for such removal on the grounds of misbehaviour or incapacity. MR GUZANA : Mr Chairman, section 48 provides for a method of removing a judge from office. The President is the person to remove him from the post of Chief Justice or from the post of judge. This will be done after the President has received an address from the National Assembly praying for his removal on the grounds of misbehaviour or incapacity which may come upon the judge as a result of old age or accident or the type of misbehaviour so well represented here. (Laughter) I move. MR L L MGUDLWA : Mr Chairman, there was this "misbehaviour on the part of a judge❞ I would that the last speaker should perorate on that. MR GUZANA: For instance, if a judge is involved in a
drunken brawl or is chased by an angry husband overnight to his house (Laughter) or is constantly involved in situations which undermine his integrity or becomes insolvent himself. I am merely giving examples, Sir. Clause 48 put and agreed to. Rules of court. 49. (1 ) Subject to the provisions of subsection (2) the Chief Justice may make rules regulating the conduct of proceedings in the Supreme Court and prescribing any matter whatsoever which it is necessary to prescribe in order to ensure the proper despatch and conduct of the business of the court, including rules prescribing court fees, the fees payable for the service or execution of process and the fees chargeable by advocates, attorneys and notaries as well as rules relating to the taxation of bills of costs and the recovery of costs. (2) Any rules made by the Chief Justice under subsection (1 ) shall be subject to the approval of the President and any rules so approved shall be made known
by notice in the Gazette. (3) The rules which immediately prior to the commencement of this Act applied in respect of the High Court referred to in section 44(3) shall, notwithstanding the provisions of section 74(1 ), apply mutatis mutandis in respect of the Supreme Court of Transkei and shall be deemed to have been duly made, approved and published in terms of this section. MR GUZANA: This section is merely to regulate the conduct of all criminal and civil proceedings in court and these rules are made by the Chief Justice. He determines, for instance, what stamp duty has to be paid on documents, what as court fees, fees payable for the service of process and time limits within which certain process has to be filed with the registrar, fees to be charged by advocates or attorneys or notaries. MR K G NOTA: I hope their charges aren't too stiff. MR GUZANA: The hon trader says he hopes the attorneys do not charge stiff fees. I know what happens at and I am trading stations where they add 50% profit going to stop giving you legal advice down York Road. (Laughter) These rules on being made by the Chief Justice will have to be approved by the President - the President and thereafter gazetted in in Council, hon member order to be operative and binding. Now, those rules which regulated the business of the Transkei High Court shall continue to be operative when the Supreme Court of Transkei is established, until otherwise altered or amended, and their binding force derives from the fact that they will be deemed to have been drawn up in terms of section 49(1). I move, Mr Chairman. CHIEF J NTOLA : Mr Chairman, I want to ask whether an accussed person will be given a choice of trial by judge
or jury. MR GUZANA: At one time it was thought that twelve good men and true made certain that justice was properly dispensed, but in countries where they have come to know that even members of the jury can be bribed and influenced there has been a move away from using the jury as a body to determine the guilt or otherwise of an individual based on the evidence. The view has been to move away from the jury system and they were abolished in the Republic of South Africa for that reason and for other reasons, so that there has been a move away from a prohibition which had become corrupted by the complexities of modern society. There is therefore no jury and you will have to argue with the judge who knows the law and listens to the facts. MR L L MGUDLWA: What about assessors ? MR GUZANA: Well the judge may have assessors, and this is so particularly in cases where some of the defences derive from Native law, for instance, or where the judge has 343.
or whenever the office of attorney-general becomes vacant, the President may appoint any deputy attorneygeneral or, if more available, any other qualified officer of the public service to act temporarily in the place of the attorney-general. (6) Any person who immediately prior to the commencement of this Act holds the office of attorneygeneral or deputy attorney-general in the districts comprising Transkei shall be deemed to have been appointed as attorney-general or deputy attorney-general of Transkei under this section. MR K M GUZANA : Clause 51 deals with the administration of justice and all matters of administration relating tojustice are vested in the Minister ofJustice who exercises all powers and functions and authorities relating to the prosecution of offences. Now, the President will appoint an attorney-general who will then be a civil servant and therefore under the terms and conditions of the public service. He shall be the person who prosecutes in the name of the State, so that when you have "The State vs X" the State is in effect the attorney-general who represents the State and whose multifarious prosecution functions are delegated to prosecutors in the magistrate's criminal court. He will also do anything necessary in order effectively to exercise that authority to prosecute offences, and any other powers and authorities conferred upon him by law will be so exercised by the attorney-general. Now, when he uses his powers and exercises his authority he is acting under the direction and control of the Minister of Justice and the Minister of Justice can countermand an order of the attorney-general, so that the attorneygeneral may decide to prosecute and the Minister of Justice may decide that in that particular case there shall be no prosecution. Because the Minister of Justice is the person who has all powers and authorities relating to the prosecution of offences and that the attorneygeneral is but an official to perform those functions, then those functions can easily be performed by the Minister of Justice who has in his hands all powers and authorities. The Minister of Justice, for instance, in terms of the Public Service regulations, can appoint a deputy attorney-general and the deputy attorney-general operates under the supervision and control and direction of the attorney-general. Now, it may happen that the attorney-general is away, perhaps on holiday, or is unable to perform his functions. In such event the deputy attorney-general may be appointed to act in his place and is so appointed by the President ; and, if there is no deputy attorney-general, any other person qualified to do the work may be appointed from the public service to perform temporarily the functions of the attorneygeneral. Now, he who was the attorney-general under the Transkei Constitution Act of 1963 will continue so to hold that post under this present Act, and shall be deemed to have been appointed to that position in terms of this clause, and any deputy attorney-general shall be like treated. I move, Mr Chairman . Clause 51 put and agreed to.
got to sit in judgment on a matter involving the law of copyright, which is a highly specialized branch of law. He has an inherent prerogative to ask a member of the public to assist him or members of the Side Bar or Bar to assist him in determining these matters. Clause 49 put and agreed to. Circuit Courts.
50. The Chief Justice may by notice in the Gazette (a) divide Transkei into circuit districts and from time to time in like manner alter the boundaries of any circuit district; and (b) determine the times when and the places where the Supreme Court shall sit in such circuit districts for the hearing of criminal cases. MR GUZANA: Mr Chairman, I shall only speak when all the members are awake. (Laughter) Now, the Chief Justice may divide up the area of jurisdiction under the Supreme Court of Transkei into regions or districts and these shall be called circuit districts, so that the judge may determine that Kentani, Willowvale, Idutywa, Nqamakwe, Tsomo, Cofimvaba, Cala and Butterworth shall be a circuit and the Supreme court on circuit will sit in Butterworth and cases from those districts will be heard in Butterworth. He may divide the Transkei similarly to form the number of circuits which will make it easy for justice to be brought to He shall determine the people and reduce their expenses. how many circuits shall be held for the year, when the Supreme Court of Transkei goes on circuit and the centre at which circuit court will sit. I move. Clause 50 put and agreed to.
Administration of justice. 51. (1) The administration of justice throughout the Republic of Transkei shall be under the control of the Minister ofJustice in whom shall also be vested, subject to the provisions of this section, all powers and authorities relating to the prosecution of offences. (2) There shall be appointed by the President, subject otherwise to the laws governing the public service, an attorney-general who (a) shall have authority to prosecute in the name of the State any person charged with an offence before any court; (b) may perform any function which is necessary for or incidental to the exercise of such authority ; and
(c) shall have such other powers and competence as may be conferred upon him by or under any other law. (3) The attorney-general shall, in the exercise of his powers, authorities and functions be under the direction and control of the Minister of Justice who may set aside or vary any decision of the attorney-general and himself, either generally or with reference to a particular matter, exercise or perform any power, authority or function of the attorney-general.
Advocates and attorneys. 52. (1) The laws regulating the admission of advocates and attorneys to practise before the Supreme Court of South Africa shall mutatis mutandis apply to the admission of advocates and attorneys to practise in the Supreme Court of Transkei.
(4) The Minister of Justice may, subject to the laws governing the public service, appoint one or more deputy attorneys-general who, under the direction and control of the attorney-general, may do anything that the attorney-general may lawfully do. (5) Whenever for any reason the attorney-general is absent or unable to carry out the functions of his office
(2) All advocates and attorneys entitled immediately prior to the commencement of this Act to practise in the High Court referred to in section 44(3) shall be entitled to practise in the Supreme Court of Transkei. MR GUZANA 344.
Mr Chairman, those who were ad-
vocates and attorneys practising in the Supreme Court of South Africa and were admitted in terms of the laws and regulations applying when seeking admission to the Supreme Court of South Africa, those laws which applied on their admission shall apply when a person seeks to be admitted in the Supreme Court of Transkei and to practise at that court. Advocates and attorneys who have been practising in this court before independence in terms of the Transkei Constitution Act No. 48 of 1963 shall be deemed to have been so admitted and so entitled to practise before the Supreme Court of Transkei established under this Act. I move. MR L L MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman in subsection (1) there are two words there- mutatis mutandis. Now, there may be perhaps one or very few and far between of us who may understand that. I would that the last speaker should please explain this. MR GUZANA: Why don't you explain what it means? MR MGUDLWA: Perhaps I do not know. MR GUZANA : You do know. You have pretended to be intelligible about Latin and now you fight shy of this. MR MGUDLWA: Please explain. MR GUZANA: In simple language mutatis mutandis means this : What applied by way of a rule or a regulation or by law in one situation shall apply with equal force in another situation of the same as the other to which it applied, so that there is a reciprocity of application of the same rules to two situations which are similar. Do I agree with your understanding of mutatis mutandis or would you like to correct me? MR MGUDLWA: No, I thank you eader of the opposite side, because there were Ministers I was afraid would not understand this, but they were afraid to come out and ask. (Laughter) CHIEF J NTOLA : I would like to know what functions these advocates perform. MR GUZANA: Mr Chairman, let him burgle a supermarket and he will find out what lawyers can do. Attorneys will help when approached by a person who falls foul of the law and wants to be represented . It is possible that two people claim the same pig and they are prepared to go to court. The lawyers say in court what you have told them. Ifyour offence is of such a serious nature that you have to go to the Supreme Court you will have to obtain the services of an advocate. If you have burnt someone's hut or murdered someone you obtain the services of an advocate, and the charges are very high.
parliament is usually round about 12 to 19 March and all meetings should be held at the beginning of the month and also during the second month of parliament at the end of the month. For example, these meetings should have been held at the beginning of March and the end of May or, if the session is in February , at the beginning of February, and the end of April. In future we may sit for three months and it might be difficult not to have these meetings according to the Constitution , but at present I would appeal that they should be held as I have indicated . DISCUSSION OF DRAFT CONSTITUTION The discussion was resumed. Recognition and application of customary law. 53. (1) In all proceedings involving questions of tribal customs followed by persons in Transkei it shall be in the discretion of the court to decide such questions in accordance with the tribal law applying to such customs except in so far as the court may find that such law has been repealed or modified or is contrary to public policy or opposed to the principles of natural justice : Provided that no such finding shall be made by any court in respect of the custom providing for the payment of lobolo or bogadi. (2) The court shall not, in the absence of any agreement between the parties regarding the system of law to be applied in any such proceedings, apply any system of customary law other than that (a) which is observed at the place in Transkei where the defendant or respondent resides, carries on business or is employed, or (b) if more than one system of customary law is in operation at that place, which is observed by the tribe to which the defendant or respondent belongs. (3) For the purposes of subsection (1) a court, including the Supreme Court in applications, trials and appeals , may summon to its assistance in an advisory capacity such assessors as the court may deem necessary and the opinions of any such assessors shall be recorded and shall form part of the record of the proceedings . CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon members, this section seeks to preserve what has been going on namely, the recognition of our laws and customs, except those laws which are opposed to the principles of natural justice and public policy. For example, the practice whereby a person had to be killed and parts of his body used cannot be recognized as a law. That is opposed to public policy and the principles of natural justice. Of course, our custom of "lobolo " or "bogadi" in Sesotho is entrenched. Now, the courts have got to take cognizance of these laws. These are the provisions which you find in the Native Administration Act No. 38 of 1927. Under subsection (2) where the court has to decide as to what tribal law has to be used, the parties in the case should both be present and in making this decission about the law to be applied the court must take cognizance of the law applied at the place of residence or business of the defendant. In other words, where you sue a man being a Tembu who is in Gcalekaland for adultery and the payment of damages in Gcalekaland is three head of cattle, and the defendant resides and carries on business in Gcalekaland and in Tembuland the damages for adultery are five head of cattle, the court has to take cognizance of the law observed at the place in the Transkei where the defendant or respondent resides . In other words, the Tembu man should pay three head of cattle instead of five. If a Gcaleka has a case and is respondent or defendant in a case involving a Tembu woman, he has to pay five head of cattle instead of three. Now, the court for the purposes of subsection (1 ), including the Supreme Court, has the right to summon assessors if it deems fit to do so. This
Clause 52 put and agreed to. The discussion was adjourned. CHAIRMAN : The House should not expect to see any minutes at 9 o'clock tomorrow because they will not be ready, so we shall proceed at 9 o'clock without the minutes.
The Assembly adjourned until 9 am on Tuesday, 18 May 1976. TUESDAY, 18 MAY 1976 Prayers were read. ANNOUNCEMENTS CHAIRMAN : Hon members, a telegram has arrived from Mount Fletcher which reads : "Please release members of Maluti Regional Authority to attend an ordinary meeting to be held on 19 May." It is from the magistrate . CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, before we proceed I wish to appeal to the secretary of the House that a letter should be directed to all the magistrates of the Transkei advising them not to have any meetings of local bodies such as tribal and regional authorities during April. The meetings are held bimonthly so that if the session is in March all meetings should be before the session . The session of
345.
usually takes place in all Supreme Court cases where the judge finds it necessary to have assessors. They are usually appointed to assist him . I presume that is also the case with the inferior court, the magistrate's court . I move the adoption of this section. M/HEALTH: I second. MR P S KAKUDI : Mr Chairman, one wonders whether under this subsection 53(1 ) there shall be a registration of the various customs of the various tribes in the Transkei, or whether the judges wit! recognize these tribal laws by getting someone who will by verbal witness explain that particular custom ? I also would request an explanation as to who will have the power to repeal or modify these laws or prove that they are contrary to public policy or opposed to principles of natural justice. MR S P BHURALI : Mr Chairman, I would like some explanation regarding something which may crop up as a clash of interest . Let us take for an example the case of a man who is married . He is married to his wife by Christian rites and he has paid lobolo. He goes for another wife, pays his lobolo and is married by customary rites. Now, what will be the position of these two wives as far as the law concerning inheritance and so on? Is the one wife going to be superseded by the other or are they going to be on an equal basis irrespective of this law? MR MIN MAKAULA : Mr Chairman, I have a few points . That " Ncumbe " custom of the Bacas of killing people has now been abandoned. It was a custom . . . . CHAIRMAN : Hon member, we have nothing to do with "Ncumbe" here. Please don't waste any time as time is running out. MR MAKAULA: Let us go to the question of lobolo, then. There is some variety as far as the custom of lobolo is concerned. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, I think I must bring the hon member to order. We are only discussing the recognition of custom. If the hon member says this should not be recognized then he will be in order, but he has not got to discuss the details of lobolo. MR MAKAULA : We say that the custom should be preserved . CHIEF MINISTER : That is what the section says. MR MAKAULA : There is some difference in the various areas . CHAIRMAN : That is not the issue. MR MAKAULA : That is the first point. The second point is that there is . . . . . CHAIRMAN : Hon member, we are not discussing the various customs here. It is stated here that Native law and custom is being recognized. We are not dealing with the details of custom in respect of the various tribes of the Transkei. Our comments should be relative to the issue, please. MR D NDAMASE: In the case of a man who pays lobola and marries a woman .... CHAIRMAN : Hon members, don't usurp the powers of the courts. This is not a court oflaw. How the customs are dealt with by the courts is irrelevant to this issue. MR NDAMASE : Mr Chairman, what I wish to be made clear of is that when one marries by Christian or civil rites but also has to marry according to Native law and custom, can't one of these types of mariages be done away with ? CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, in reply to the questions put by the hon members for Herschel, this section seeks to provide for the recognition and application of customary laws. The registration of customs is another point. It is not a question which is involved in this. It is a matter which the hon member could at a later date bring to the National Assembly by way of a motion, that customs should be registered , but I wish to assure him that the judicial system of the Transkei has been in existence from time 346.
immemorial, since the coming of the white man to South Africa, and there are so many books and decided cases which guide the magistrates and the judges in coming to their decisions . However, it would be interesting to get someone to carry out research and compile a book registering all the customs of tribes in the Transkei for the assistance of the courts. The courts have been able to ascertain what custom is prevalent and used in any tribe from the assessors I have referred to who are provided for in this section. This will be found in all the decisions of the Native Appeal Court, the decisions of the Supreme Court, where it will be found that the judges have decided cases according to what they have found to be the law existing in any particular area. Now, the judges have no power to repeal or modify any laws ofa country. They interpret the law which has been enacted by parliament and the only body which has the right to repeal or modify laws is parli ent the sovereign body of the country. Replying to the hon member for Herschel with regard to Christian rites and wives married accordir ? to Native law and custom, this is beside the point. It is a matter which is not the subject matter of this section, because if I were to into this matter I would invite a lot of discussion on the recognition of these two systems of marriages. However, I can tell you if you are married by Christian rites and you subsequently marry another woman, this other woman is not recognized in law as having been married even if you pay lobolo. MR K G NOTA : What about , the other way round? CHIEF MINISTER : If you start with a customary union that wife is recognised , but the moment you marry according to Christian rites then she ceases to be your wife. But this is not the matter at issue and please don't discuss it. If you want to discuss it, bring a motion at some other day with regard to the Marriage Act and try to get the Government to have its own Marriage Act. At present the courts interpret the law which exists today. MR S P BHURALI : Mr Chairman, I wish to thank the hon the Chief Minister for this explanation , but at the same time I would like to give homework to the members of the House. I am happy to learn that we can enter into this matter and that we can introduce a bill so that all wives should have equal rights. Marriage by Christian or civil rights is not our custom. It is a practice introduced to us by the white people. CHIEF MINISTER : Out of order, Mr Chairman. Clause 53 put and agreed to.
Provisions relating to existing courts. 54. (1) Notwithstanding anything contained in section 74(1) but subject to the provisions of this Act — (a) every court in existence in a district of Transkei immediately prior to the commencement of this Act, other than the court constituted under section 10 of the Bantu Administration Act, 1927 (Act 38 of 1927), shall remain in existence and in operation in accordance with its existing constitution and jurisdiction until altered or disestablished by or under any Act of Parliament ; (b) the laws which immediately prior to the commencement of this Act applied to the High Court referred to in section 44(3) shall apply mutatis mutandis to the Supreme Court of Transkei : Provided that any reference in any such laws to the " Minister of Bantu Administration and Development" and the "Secretary for Bantu Administration and Development" shall be construed as a reference to the Minister of Justice and the Secretary for Justice respectively ; (c) all proceedings pending immediately prior to the commencement of this Act in any court constituted under section 10 of the Bantu Administration Act
pending proceedings - that is, the cases which will not have been finalized when this Act is passed - which were heard before the Native Commissioner's court or the High Court will stand removed to the magistrate's court of the district and the Supreme Court of Transkei respectively. Then all judgements, and orders which were made by a magistrate of Bantu Affairs Commissioner or a judge of the High Court will be binding on the magistrate or the judge of the Supreme Court after the commencement of this Act. With regard to the appeals to the Appellate Division under subsection (e), this is the only section which probably the enemies of the Transkei are taking advantage of in scrutinizing our Constitution, but this section is in the interests of the individual and not in the interests of the Government or the recess committee or anybody who finds it is fitting to have a Supreme Court other than the Supreme Court of South Africa to hear appeals from the Supreme Court of Transkei. At the commencement of this Act the Transkei shall have no court equivalent to the Appellate Division of the Supreme Court of the Republic of South Africa where appeals from the Supreme Court of Transkei can be heard. Until such time as Transkei shall be in a position to have its own Appellate Court, some court must be provided in the interests of the individual. There are many cases of appeal from the Transkei which have gone as far as the Appellate Division of the Supreme Court of South Africa. Now, we don't want to curtail this essential right of the individual to appeal. For example, in the Cape Colony before the establishment of the Union of South Africa, the appeals from the Supreme Court of the Cape Colony went to the Privy Council in Great Britain . I think that was the case in South Africa before the establishment of the Appellate Division which sits in Blomefontein, so these white papers, these leftist papers who try to influence our people to say: Look, the Transkei will not be a sovereign State — why do appeals go to the Appellate Division in Blomefontein ? are doing it only to muzzle the minds of the people. They know the true facts, that we must have the highest Appeal Court to assist the individual who is probably victimized by the lower courts. Now, subsection (2) provides that in respect of cases from the chiefs' courts the appeal shall lie in the magistrate's court, as there shall be no Bantu Affairs Commissioners. I think that is clear. Now, hon members, I have no doubt that this section will be adopted and I move, M/EDUCATION : I second. MR L L MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman, subsection (e) is very important and I want to make some comments thereon. It is being said that Transkei is a Republic and it is stated that all appeals will be submitted to another Republic. I have heard the explanation which has been made, which is most unsatisfactory. CHIEF MINISTER : Tell me where the appeals should go. MR MGUDLWA: We heard the Cape Colony used to submit its appeals overseas to a Privy Council. CHIEF MINISTER : Even the Union of South Africa used to submit its appeals there. Tell me where the appeals must go. MR MGUDLWA : Why must we not establish our own Appellate Division as we already have a Supreme Court ? CHIEF MINISTER : We are going to do it. MR MGUDLWA: It is laughable that we have Bantu courts. How can you submit apeals to the Bloemfontein Appellate Division in the Xhosa language ? If we claim to be a sovereign state we must establish our own Appellate Division - even the Transkei.
1927 and in the aforesaid High Court shall stand removed to the magistrate's Court of the district and the Supreme Court of Transkei respectively, which shall have jurisdiction to hear and determine the same ; (d) all judgements and orders of the said High Court or any other court referred to in paragraph (a) shall have the same force and effect as if they had been given or made by the Supreme Court of Transkei or, as the case may be, the court of corresponding jurisdiction in the Republic of Transkei; and (c) the Appellate Division of the Supreme Court of South Africa shall have jurisdiction to hear and determine appeals from any decision ofthe Supreme Court of Transkei as if such last-mentioned court were a provincial division of the Supreme Court of South Africa and the provisions of the law and rules of court applicable in connection with appeals from the decision of such a provincial division shall mutatis mutandis apply with reference to any appeal from a decision of the Supreme Court of Transkei. (2) For the purposes of subsection (1)(a) of this section any appeal to a court of Bantu affairs commissioner or to a Bantu affairs commissioner in terms of section 12 or 20 of the Bantu Administration Act, 1927 shall lie to the magistrate's court or the corresponding judicial officer of such court in the district concerned, as the case may be, and any reference in the said sections 12 and 20 to a "court of Bantu affairs commissioner" and a “Bantu affairs commissioner” shall be construed as a reference to a magistrate's court and to such judicial officer as aforesaid ,respectively : Provided that, until an Act of Parliament otherwise provides, any regulations made under sections 12 and 20 of the said Bantu Administration Act, 1927 shall apply mutatis mutandis in respect of any action taken under those sections in a magistrate's court or before a magistrate. CHIEF MINISTER : This section provides that the courts which were established under the Native Administration Act, as it was called at the time (now called the Bantu Administration Act, No. 38 of 1927), as Native Commis sioners' courts will no more exist as there are no Native or Bantu Commissioners in the Transkei. We only have the magistrate's court and the Supreme Court of Transkei. The chiefs' courts having jurisdiction will remain as they have been. Now, the hon members probably do not understand the difference between Native Commissioner's court and the magistrate's court. Native Commissioners were officers who were appointed to deal with the affairs of the Natives only and they tried cases between Native and Native, whereas the magistrate's court could not try a case between Native and Native. It tried the cases between a Native and a White or between Whites. Now, the same officer had these two capacities. When he sat on the bench to try a case between Native and Native he was the Native Commissioner, but when he dealt with matters involving the white people and Coloured people he become a magistrate. That Act is now being abolished because you do not find anything in this Act which discrimiBates between Black and White, and only magistrates will try cases involving Transkeian citizens and non-Transkeian citizens. All the other courts remain until parliament decides to do away with them, because parliament is sovereign and can do anything. With regard to subsection (b) the laws which immediately prior to the commencement of this Act applied to the High Court of the Transkei shall apply mutatis mutandis to the Supreme Court of Transkei. We had a High Court but it will not be the High Court ofTranskei, it will be the Supreme Court of Transkei immediately after the passing of this Act. Under subsection (c) all
Clause 54 put and agreed to. CHAPTER 7 FINANCE
Revenues vest in President.
347 .
55. All revenues and other moneys received from any source whatsoever for the purposes of the administration of Transkei shall vest in the President.
shall not apply to the Transkei. We shall not restrict the Transkei in any way and they will be free to do as they please. Now, there is nothing which talks about the Appellate Division in the Status Act receiving cases on appeal from CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, this section prothe Transkei. This Constitution will not be binding on the vides that the Treasury of Transkei shall be under the control Repub Pres lic in any way . The Republic of South Africa could kno iden the of wn, of course, that there will be t. It is say they will not receive any cases from the Transkei, but a Department of Finance and a Minister of Finance appointwe are making a possibility and we are taking for granted ed by the President, and his department will look after the that the Republican Government will not refuse to receive moneys received for purposes of administration . I move appeals from the Transkei. Now , also with regard to the adoption . these funds there will be an agreement between Transkei and MR M P LUDIDI : Mr Chairman , first of all, I would like to remind the members of the recess committee that we the Republic. We need not entrench this constitutionally. We cannot force the Republican Government by having it are here so that we may raise our views and be heard . entrenched in our Constitution. Even if it were so, they (Interjections) Now, my comments will be based first of might say they will not give us any money and what can all on this report of the recess committee which contains the details of the motion which gave birth to this draft we do about it ? They say they will give us freedom. What can you do with freedom ? I am trying to show that Constitution, and then I will also quote from the Transkei Constitution Act of 1963. This concerns the moneys that a Constitution does not provide for everything. Clause 55 put and agrede to. are in the Republic of South Africa. The motion here is Transkeian Revenue Fund. paragraph (2) which refers to the financial implications of the said independence on the Transkei. When we discussed 56. (1) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 74(1 ) this we made reference to these moneys in the Republic the Transkeian Revenue Fund established by section which have been paid by our people for ages to the Republic. 51 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 shall be continued and into such fund there shall be paid all the Now, the draft Constitution says nothing about those revenues raised or received by the President other than moneys, whereas this Constitution has provisions which bind the Republic to give us moneys. Mr Chairman, I any moneys that are payable by or under any law into know that an independent state cannot be forced to give a fund established for a specific purpose . money to another foreign country per Constitution, but the (2) No moneys shall be withdrawn from the Transkeian point is if we are going to use the treaty system to bind the Revenue Fund except under appropriation made by an Republic to give us money, then I think we are gambling. Act of Parliament. CHIEF MINISTER : In this clause there is a certain A treaty is valid as long as the two parties concerned respect section to which reference is made - that is, section 74 it. We know from history that treaties in the past have been broken. Now, we must also make provision for the the repeal of laws. Now, this section says notwithstanding unforseeable, as the members of the recess committee have the provisions of this section the Transkei Revenue Fund continually told us. It is a matter of possibility that a established by section 51 of the Transkei Constitution Act change of government in the Republic may result in the of 1963 shall be continued . Now, the recess committee disregard of the existing financial treaty between the Rewent deeply into the financial implications of our independepublic of Transkei and the Republic of South Africa. If, nce, and we found that as far as the Transkeian citizen is concerned there is this indirect taxation, but they are ignorant therefore, we cannot bind the Republic of South Africa to give us money per Constitution, why in the foregoing clause of the way in which it is calculated . We don't know how dealing with the Appeal Courts have we paragraph (e) of much we contribute towards taxes on tobacco , liquor, sales subsection 54(1) which states that the Appellate Division of tax and all that . Now, the Republic of South Africa has the Supreme Court of South Africa shall have jurisdiction a customs agreement with the BLS countries whereby it to hear and determine appeals from any decision of the pays moneys to those countries for all these indirect taxes which flow into the revenue of South Africa. Now, the Supreme Court of Transkei ? I am sure this arrangement made under this paragraph is not something which was done money which we receive from the Republic in terms of section 52(1) of the Transkei Constitution Act of 1963 has without an understanding between the members of the nothing to do with the money received by way of customs recess committee and the Republic. That provision, as far as I am concerned , is binding on the Republic and though and excise duties . It is moneys which comes from the Republic to assist us because of our contribution to the I do not know, I think the Republic has made a similar proRepublican Government for all these years and we do not vision in its laws for the Appellate Division of the Supreme have to lay down the whole section as it was in section 52 (1) Court to hear appeals from the Supreme Court of Transkei . of the Transkei Constitution Act, but we still have to receive Now, I would like some clarification from the members of money for all these indirect taxes . I think the hon member the recess committee as to why there is no clause in this section dealing with finance covering us as far as our moneys for Ngqeleni , Chief Douglas Ndamase, will be very happy that we have to receive this money because he has always in the Republic are concerned, so that if there will have to pointed this out. We have already negotiated with the to be any change the change will have to come before this Republican Government to be admitted into this customs Assembly as well as before their Assembly . I hope, Mr and excise duties club with the BLS countries and South Chairman , I have stated my point clearly. Africa, so the hon member for Matatiele should really understand that all he wants is provided for in section 56 MR K G NOTA: Mr Chairman, I would ask the House that this section 55 should be approved , because the relevant of this Act and there will be even more than he wants . I argument put forward by the hon member affects section 56. I move the adoption . It only says here that revenues shall vest in the President. Then under section 56 I will say something to add to what Clause 56 put and agreed to. the hon member has said . CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman I just want to make CHAPTER 8 a short explanation to the hon member. The Status Act will not go into all the provisions of the Transkei Constitution Act. It is only going to be an Act which says : We CITIZENSHIP are giving the Transkei complete sovereignity. Our laws Persons who are citizens of Transkei . 348.
Now, any person born outside the Transkei and is adopted by anybody in the Transkei can become a Transkeian citizen with the permission of the Minister. This registration should be done within two years after birth. Mr Chairman, this is clear and I move the adoption. M/HEALTH : I second.
57. There shall become a citizen of Transkei – (a) at the commencement of this Act (i) every person who, having been born in any district of the former Transkeian Territories or the former territory of the Transkei, is immediately prior to such commencement, a citizen of the territory; (ii) every person born outside the districts of the former Transkeian Territories or the former territory of the Transkei who is immediately prior to the commencement of this Act a citizen of that territory and whose father, is or but for his death would have been, a citizen of Transkei in terms of subparagraph (i) ; (iii) every other person who, immediately prior to such commencement, is a citizen of the former territory of the Transkei and has not lost or renounced such citizenship ; (b) with effect from the date of his birth every person born in Transkei on or after the date of commencement of this Act : Provided that no person shall become a citizen of Transkei, by virtue of the provisions of this paragraph, if at the time of his birth (i) his father was a person enjoying diplomatic immunity in Transkei under any law and was not a citizen of Transkei and his mother was not a citizen of Transkei ; (ii) his father was a citizen of a country with which Transkei was at war and the birth occurred at a place under occupation by the enemy and his mother was not a citizen of Transkei ; (iii) his father was a citizen of a country with which Transkei was at war, had no right of permanent residence in Transkei and was interned or detained in custody and his mother was not a citizen of Transkei ; (iv) his father was a prohibited immigrant or had no right of permanent residence in Transkei and his mother was not a citizen of Transkei ; (c) with effect from the date of his birth, every person born outside Transkei on or after the date of commencement of this Act whose father was at the time of the birth a citizen of Transkei ; Provided that a person shall not become a citizen of Transkei by virtue of the provisions of this paragraph if at the time of his birth the becomes a citizen of any other country ; (d) any person born outside Transkei on or after the date of commencement of this Act if in accordance with law (including customary law) he is adopted by or otherwise becomes the child of a citizen of Transkei and his birth is, within two years thereof orwith the permission of the Minister of the Interior or other competent Minister at a later date, registered with a registering authority of the government of Transkei. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, this section provides that the categories of persons listed in subsection (a)(i) , (ii) and (iii) can claim as of right to be registered as citizens of Transkei. When they go to the registration office and say: I am a Transkeian and I want to be registered as a Transkeian - they have got that right. The people who will not have that right are provided for in subsection (b)(i), (ii), (iii) and (iv) . Under subsection (c) a person whose father was a Transkeian citizen and he knows his father has a home in the Transkei, he has a right ot come to the Transkei and claim citizenship, provided he is not the citizen of another country. I presume these are people who will be known in the locations in which they reside.
The discussion was adjourned. AFTER TEA ADJOURNMENT The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.
QUESTIONS QUESTION NO. 106: Chief S.C. Dalasile asked the Minister of Finance:-
"May the Minister of Finance inform the House on the following matters.: (a) No. of taxpayers in each district in the Transkei. (b) No. of taxpayers who have fully paid their taxes in 1974/75. (c) No. who are in arrears for this period?"
REPLY : "The question put by the Honourable member for Mqanduli, Chief S.C. Dalasile, is vague as he did not specify the tax in connection with which he requires the information. However, if he referred to General Tax of a fixed amount the position is as follows: No. of TaxNo. not in No. in arrear District with their arrear with payers their tax their tax Bizana Butterworth Cala Cofimvaba Elliotdale Engcobo Flagstaff Idutywa Kentani Libode Lusikisiki Matatiele Mt. Ayliff Mt. Fletcher Mt. Frere Mqanduli Ngqeleni Nqamakwe Port St. John Qumbu Tabankulu Tsolo Tsomo Umtata Umzimkulu Willowvale
17 832 10 230 12 297 23 138 13426 28 495 14 498 17 765 20 684 15 270 26 092 18 683 8 997 16 589 18 084 16715 18 998 15352 8 093 17 058 15 935 15 544 12 756 22 117 18 682 23 979
10 484 7 757 9 625 18 537 13 017 22 697 10 582 14 660 17 420 11 103 16 478 12 193 8 852 11 291 17 974 12 145 13 390 11 714 5356 12 723 11 061 11 360 10 249 17 386 12 963 18 653
7 348 2473 2672 4 601 409 5 798 3 916 3 105 3 264 4 167 9 614 6490 145 5 298 110 4 570 5 608 3 638 2737 4 335 4 874 4 184 2 507 4 731 5719 5 326
"As regards the tax position in the new districts of Herschel and Glen Grey, no statics are available at this stage." DISCUSSION OF DRAFT CONSTITUTION
CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, I have just been reminded by the law adviser that there is an omission in the 349 .
every child who is born outside the Transkei, or, let me say, after the commencement of this Act whose father was at the time of his birth a citizen of Transkei, becomes a Transkeian citizen. Have you heard what I said, hon member, or must I repeat it for the third time? CHIEF G W NKWENKWEZI : Mr Chairman, as we are going to be citizens of Transkei - that is, Blacks, Coloureds and Whites - are we going to do away with the Immorality Act ? (Laughter) MR W M MADIKIZELA : In regard to a Transkeian citizen married to a woman ofa different country who brings his wife to the Transkei, how long must she reside in the Transkei before she becomes a citizen of Transkei? MR M P LUDIDI : Mr Chairman, I appreciated the reply given by the Leader of the House to the question by the hon member for Tsomo. He said as our people who are away in the labour centres vote for Transkeian candidates, similarly the Whites who are Republican citizens will enjoy the same rights. How ever, our people are not in Transkei constituencies as they vote. They vote for constituencies in the Transkei. This becomes more interesting, Mr Chairman. Iknow in the past they have applied for constituencies in the Republic. Now, Mr Chairman, will Republican citizens in the Transkei who are carrying franchise rights vote in a constituency like the one represented by Mr Hughes now? There is a constituency of which the Transkei is part, and that is East Griqualand. I want to know if the Transkei will continue to be part of the East Griqualand constituency in respect of the Republican citizens who are here in the Republic of Transkei, because I feel that will be an anomalous situation which may encourage subversion? We do feel, though that is not confirmed, that our claims to the Kokstad farms and so forth may be influenced by these Republican MPs who have their feet in the Transkei. They may influence the thinking of the people here and they may even go to the extreme extent that they do cause trouble in the Transkei. I would like to know from the members of the recess committee if the status quo will be maintained.
clause dealing with the courts, and the recess committee, which I will request shall continue its work at the close of the debate, will go into this question of cases from the Appeal and Divorce Court as these courts are going to be disestablish ed. They will be substituted by the Supreme Court. The discussion on clause 57 was resumed. MR SA XOBOLOLO : Mr Chairman, there is one point I wish to be explained in connection with the right of a person to become a citizen in the Transkei under subsection (b)(ii), where it mentions a country which was at war with the Transkei. Does that mean a country with which the Republic was at war? CHIEF MINISTER : No, Sir, the Constitution is drafted to meet the future. The Transkei has never been at war with any other country. MR XOBOLOLO : I want to know whether the citizenship question will be adjusted after we have been at war. We are asking now, before such a situation arises. CHIEF MINISTER : This deals with any future situation which might arise. MR XOBOLOLO : Does it mean everyone is free to become a citizen ? CHIEF MINISTER : In terms of this section. CHIEF G W NKWENKWEZI : I read an article in the Daily Dispatch in connection with the white people. I do not know whether white people will become citizens of Transkei or whether they will remain citizens of the Republic, because it was stated in the paper that their constituencies will carry on even after the Transkei has attained independence. If they are still under the Republic of South Africa how are these people going to be ruled ? How will they become citizens of Transkei when they owe allegiance to the Republican Government? CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, let me ask you a question. What about our people in the Cape today and in the labour centres such as Durban and Johannesburg? Those people vote for their own candidates here. They vote even though they are in the labour centres. Now, the white people here who are citizens of the Republic are not citizens of Transkei. They may vote for their own candidates but they have to obey the laws of the Transkei as our people have to obey the laws of the Republic. You ask how those people can be made to obey our laws. What about our people ? How are they governed ? Subsection (c) says that a person shall not become a citizen of Transkei by virtue of the provisions of this paragraph if at the time of his birth he becomes a citizen of any other country. CHIEF G M DONDASHE : Mr Chairman, in a situation of this nature you are away at the labour centres working, and you marry whilst away from home and you have issue born away from home, how will that child be registered as a citizen of Transkei ? We are not members of the recess committee and would that the members ofthe committee should not become impatient when we put questions because we have to go back to the people and inform them of what is happening. CHAIRMAN : There is nobody who is against you asking questions or perusing any item here, so don't give the wrong impression in this House. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, this is the difficulty. We are discussing a matter in this House and the hon member is far away from this discussion. He asks a question on what has already been explained. This is provided under subsection (c) . If a child is born of a Transkeian father (the mother does not come into it) that child is a Transkeian child . I don't know how many times I have to explain these things. Please listen, because you will not grasp these things if you think of other matters. It becomes embarrassing to be repeating one thing over and over again. I made a thorough explanation of this under clause 57(c) — that
CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, in reply to the hon member for Tsomo, I do not think this is a matter which could be provided for in the Constitution. Parliament is sovereign and we pass any law that will repeal a law which the Transkeian people do not want. We are now dealing with a Constitution and in this Constitution nothing has been mentioned about the immorality of the people of the Transkei. I will advise the hon member, if he is no anxious to cross the colour line (Laughter) to bring a motion in the future parliament. Coming to the hon member for Maluti, in terms ofthe law there is in the Transkei no East Griqualand. The areas that formerly constituted East Griqualand under the Chief Magistrate of the Transkei were as follows :Matatiele, Mount Fletcher, Maclear, Mount Currie, Umzimkulu, Mount Ayliff, Mount Frere, Tsolo, Qumbu ; but on 1 January 1914 the district of Maclear was removed from the jurisdiction of the Chief Magistrate of the Transkei. Now, on the attainment of self-government in 1963 portions of the district of Matatiele, including the town, and the district of Mount Currie were removed from the jurisdiction of the Chief Magistrate of the Transkei and these areas have now been constituted as East Griqualand . Mount Fletcher and portion of Matatiele are Maluti and not East Griqualand Tsolo, Qumbu, Mount Frere are no more East Griqualand, but Emboland. Mount Ayliff falls into Qaukeni and Umzimkulu forms a province on its own. Now, that is the legal position today. The Whites who are in the Transkei are at liberty to register in any constituency outside the Transkei as registered voters. If most of them have registered in the area of the towns I have referred to - that is, Maclear and Mount Currie - then they belong to that area. Others come from East London, Queenstown, Johannesburg, Rustenburg and all over the country, but are in the 350.
Transkei, and those people have registered in those towns and are voters in the Transkei. It must be clear that the white people are not Transkeian citizens at present. I want to make that clear. The Coloureds are not Transkeian citizens, except the adopted children born of our women who have declared that they belong to the Transkei and who pay the taxes we pay. They disown that they are Coloureds. They are Transkeian children, and also there are white Tembus, as we know. CHIEF NKWENKWEZI : Mr Chairman, I understand our policy is going to be nonracial . CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr Chairman, we are not discussing policies here, we are discussiong the Constitution. We are dealing with these clauses. The policy will be discussed in the congress of the parties and in the party caucuses. This is not the place to discuss the policy of the Government. We must deal specifically with the provisions of these sections. CHAIRMAN : Are there any other comments in connection with persons who are citizens of Transkei ? CHIEF J NTOLA : Mr Chairman , I would like to know if a white or Coloured man is eligible for election and can thereby become a member of this National Assembly. The white man has his parliament in Cape Town and the Coloured somewhere near Cape Town. We don't want a mixture of races here. CHAIRMAN :Hon member, any citizen of Transkei can come to this parliament, irrespective of colour. MR B P VAPI : Mr Chairman, I was going to make this request, that the word "iLawu" must not be used because it appears to be an insult. CHAIRMAN : Hon members, please let us concern ourselves with citizenship. Clause 57 put and agreed to.
they may make application for registration in terms of the regulations prescribed by or under an Act of Parliament. Subsection (2) is also important and I wish section to this receive your close attention because it deals with people who have no right at present to be Transkeian citizens. It citizenship, and subsection (2) deals with Xhosa and Sothospeaking people who have associated themselves ethnically and culturally with the Transkei and says that those people should be registered in the manner to be prescribed by or under an Act of Parliament if it is found that they belong to the Transkei. I hope you understand the explanation. Never mind what the clause says. I am explaining the clause as it is and I think I have explained it sufficiently. Hon members may put questions about this clause. MR K G NOTA : Mr Chairman, in subsection (2), the words "descended from or ethnically, culturally or otherwise associated with . . . .” CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, I. think there is something here. The recess committee suggested "may" instead of "shall be registered". MR NOTA: Mr Chairman, I was just going to canvass that point, but I think they have covered it. Now, when they say "may" do they mean "may be registered" or "may apply to become citizens of Transkei" ? CHIEF MINISTER : My attention has just been drawn by my colleagues to the decision of the recess committee, that the clause should read as follows:- "may apply for registration as and become a citizen of Transkei." MR N JAFTA: Mr Chairman, if one resides in, Soweto and has no desire to become a citizen of Transkei but wishes to be a citizen of Soweto, how will that matter be resolved ? This particular individual has never at any time resided in the Transkei. He does not wish to become a citizen of Transkei or any other place except Soweto.
of Transkei by registration. Any person who is not a minor, is a South African citizen , and has been lawfully domiciled in a district of Transkei for the period of five years immediately preceding that person's application for registration under this section, and (d) is not a prohibited immigrant, may, upon making application in such manner as may be prescribed by or under an Act of Parliament be registered as and become a citizen of Transkei. (2) Any person, who has been found in the manner to be prescribed by or under an Act of Parliament, to be predominantly Xhosa-speaking or Sotho-speaking and to be a member of, or descended from, or ethnically, culturally or otherwise associated with, any tribe resident in a district of Transkei shall be registered as and become a citizen of Transkei. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, this section also deals with citizenship but is a little different from the first one. The first one gives automatic citizenship - a right to the people to register. Now, this one deals with citizenship by registration. It says any person who is not a minor, is a South African citizen and has been lawfully domiciled in a district of Transkei ... Now, here I would say " in an area included in Schedule 1 of this Act" instead of saying " in a district of Transkei”, and then continue " for the period of five years immediately preceding that person's application for registration under this section" ; and is not a prohibited immigrant may (not “must” and not "shall") make application under an Act of Parliament to become citizen of Transkei. Now, this answers the question by the hon member for Bizana. This is the section which affects his question. At present there are no Whites or Coloured people who are Transkeian citizens, but this section says that if they fulfill those qualifications listed in subsection ( 1)
CHIEF MINISTER : I think this question ought to be put to the Minister of Interior of the Republic of South Africa, because Soweto belongs to the Republic. Ask the Minister of the Interior of the Republic the question: Suppose people don't want to be citizens of a homeland, will you allow them to be citizens of Soweto ? Ask him that question and he will reply to you. Personally I am not competent to reply to that question. I am merely protecting the interests of the Transkei, that no people should be compelled to come to the Transkei. Transkeian citizens should be citizens by right ; secondly by application for registration. Nobody is forced. Don't follow what is written in papers. Don't take any notice of the lies in the Press. The Press is capable of distorting issues, particularly in regard to relations between the Republic and Transkei. They would like to see those relations strained . The Press is controlled by a certain section of the white people who are not happy about your liberation. If they cannot create confusion amongst you they will create confusion between you and the Republic. Since the inception of self-government we have never compelled anyone to register as a citizen of the Transkei and we shall not compel anybody to do so. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR S P BHURALI : Mr Chairman, I hope I am not going to be misunderstood as introducing another language. I am not introducing any other language in what I am about to say. This is a very good clause and I would like to have it reinforced by the words " Zulu-speaking". I have in mind the claims that the boundaries of the Transkei should extend as far as the Umzimkulu River. When these people are added to the Transkei many of them will be Zulu-speaking and become Transkeian citizens. CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr Chairman. The hon member should not drive us to a situation where we can say he is confusing the whole situation. That is provided for in this section. Read subsection ( 1)(b) — "is a South African citizen". Indeed you are bringing confusion now,
Citizens 58. (1) (a) (b) (c)
351 .
as a section of our people who have an ethnic group of their own. Why not say "Tembu-speaking or Baca-speaking or Pondo-speaking" ? I would advise the hon members to try not to bring about difficulties in our Constitution. We have provided for Sesotho-speaking because the Sesotho-speaking people migrated from Lesotho and settled in the Transkei with their chiefs, with their completely different language from ours. Clause 58 (1)(b) provides for what the hon member seeks. MR M P LUDIDI : Mr Chairman, I feel it is the duty ofthe members who were not involved in the drafting ofthis Constitution to thank the members of the recess committee for changing this “shall" to may“ apply for registration ”, because the question of citizenship as it affects our people in the Republic and as it affects us is very, very important, and we hope that the Press will give much publicity to this change and emphasize the fact that those people who are in the Republic will not be forced to become Transkeian citizens. On account of that "shall" the people think we have been taking a different view of this and have not been taking Transkeian independence seriously. They have been prejudiced already, because last week in Cape Town, for example, there was a meeting of a civil board and the chairman at the end ofthe meeting wanted to know how many Transkeian people wanted to come and participate in the independence celebrations. He was howled down and the people said: Away with Transkei independence, because we are going to be forced willy-nilly to become Transkeian citizens. Indeed ,Mr Chairman, we are very thankful to the members of the recess committee.
in the land of their birth. We have instances now of many people crossing the Orange River and seeking shelter in the district of Herschel. They have been thrown out of farm employment, and others come from the cities from which they have been driven out by section 10 of the Urban Areas Act. The situation can easily arise here where the vicious circle of that Act can only be encouraged . This new state must bear in mind that it will act as a shelter to these people. Clause 58, as amended, put and agreed to. Provisions relating to other manner of acquisition, or loss, ofcitizenship of Transkei. 59. Provision may be made by Parliament (a) for the acquisition of citizenship by any person who does not become, or is not eligible to be registered as, a citizen of Transkei under the foregoing provisions of this Chapter; (b) for the renunciation by any person of his citizenship; (c) for the deprivation or loss of citizenship ; and (d) prescribing the procedure in relation to the acquisition or loss of citizenship.
CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, the provisions of this section relate to other manners of acquiring or losing citizenship and I think subsection (a) meets your case, hon member for Herschel. MR S P BHURALI : I am satisfied, thank you. MR E V NDAMASE : Mr Chairman , I also say we should thank the recess committee for the step taken, because by our action we show the world we fear nothing because countries which will not admit people coming to stay with them entertain certain fears. I would that we should have influence even with the Republican Government to allow people to stay in this country. I thank you. Clause 59 put and agreed to.
MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman, I am very happy indeed that the hon members of this house, apart from the members of the recess committee, have welcomed this amendment, because had the wording remained as recommended this would mean in effect that all people as described under that subsection could be told to get back to the Transkei. Only last year a report in the Daily Dispatch indicated that traders and professional men shall not take advantage of trading facilities and practising facilities in urban townships unless they take out homeland citizenship . Had this Assembly accepted the compulsory terminology we would have been conniving at a situation which would make life intolerable for those people who may not want to return to the transkei. The second point which we should note is this : The Republican Government cannot, nor shall it, make rules or laws for determining citizenship in the Transkei. That is a purely internal affair to be determined by the Transkeian Government. If the Republican Government should insist on this condition that traders and professional men shall have to take out homeland citizenship before they can practise or trade in the townships, and that would be with a view to forcibly sending these people back to a homeland such as the transkei, the Transkeian Government may well react by not granting registration to people who have been compelled to apply for registration as citizens. The residual result will be that those people will still retain their South African citizenship, whatever it is worth, but in the Republic of white South Africa, and white South Africa will still have to accommodate those Blacks in the political, social and economic life of white South Africa. I merely wished to make that comment, Mr Chairman. MR BHURALI : Mr Chairman, I would like to dwell on the comment made by the member of the recess committee. Many of here, I hope, have never experienced how hard it is to live in the cities, and while we hope that the Republican Government will not make a law that will make it difficult for our brothers, or push them to gain citizenship, when it happens we must remember these people will be between the devil and the deep sea. Section 10 of the Urban Areas Act has made many of these people wanderers
CHAPTER GENERAL
Application of laws and vesting of rights, etc. 60. (1) Subject to the provisions of this Act (a) all laws which immediately prior to the commencement of this Act were in operation in any district of Transkei, and (b) all laws which upon the addition of any land to Transkei, apply on or in respect of such land, shall continue to apply except in so far as such laws are superseded by any applicable law of Transkei or laws are superceded by an applicable law of Transkei or are amended or repealed by Parliament in terms of this Act: Provided that the laws mentioned in Schedule 9, together with any amendments thereof in operation immediately prior to the commencement of this Act, shall apply throughout Transkei or, as the case may be, to or in respect of all persons in Transkei : Provided further that, until otherwise provided by Parliament, the laws regulating the affairs of any Department of Posts and Telecommunications or any similar department established under section 18 (1 ) shall be deemed to have been amended to provide for the administration of that department as a department of State and not in accordance with the principles prescribed in the Post Office Re-adjustment Act, 1968 (Act 67 of 1968). (2) All rights, powers, authorities, duties, obligations
352.
section is clear as daylight and I move the adoption. MR N T SIGCAU : Mr Chairman, in subsection (3) the names of certain districts have been altered . Kentani becomes Centane and so on. There is a district which does not occur here where the spelling is incorrect, and that is Tabankulu . It should be Ntabankulu . MR C DIKO : That spelling is right, Mr Chairman. We don't want any "N" there. I mean the people of Tabankulu. It is correct, I know. CHIEF MINISTER : The people of Qaukeni region should meet about this. MR DIKO : No, not on this point. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, I think this is a matter to be discussed by Qauka at adjournment. MR Z E BOOI : Mr Chairman , I don't think that will end with Tabankulu alone. I don't think there is anything like Bizana either. It is Mbizana, and Umzimkulu should be Mzimkulu. Then what about Umtata ? I think the "U" should be dropped. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, the intention of the recess committee was to remove these colonial names, that is all. If you say Tabankulu that is not a colonial name, and neither is Umzimkulu . That was our intention, that is all. I don't think the terminology can affect the principle involved . I would rather we leave those as they are. I am appealing to the Qaukeni people to leave this Tabankulu as it is . As far as Herschel is concerned , we have decided to leave it at that. Now, for Mount Fletcher we could not get a name from the Maluti people because they had a tug-of-war among themselves and we left it at that. I hope we don't tamper with this at all. MR S A XOBOLOLO : If you are talking about the removal of colonial names, what about " Transkei" ? CHIEF MINISTER : We decided this is a name known in the international world . You may change it in the future when we are dead. Internationally it is known as the Transkei and if we change it they would not know where we were . Clause 60 put and agreed to. The discussion was adjourned.
and functions which were vested in or developed and functions which were vested in or devolved upon a Minister or other authority or person in the Republic of South Africa (including any authority or person in any provincial administration) by or under any law of the Republic of South Africa which continues to apply in Transkei in terms of subsection (a) shall vest in or devolve upon the corresponding Minister, authority or person exercising similar powers or performing similar duties or functions in Transkei: (3) Any reference in any law which continues to apply in Transkei in terms of subsection (a) to (a) the Cape Colony, the Cape Province, the Union of South Africa, the Union, the State, the Republic of South Africa or the Republic, shall be construed as a reference to the Republic of Transkei ; (b) the Governor, the Crown, the King, the Queen, the Governor-General or the State President shall be construed as a reference to the Republic of Transkei or the President as the circumstances may require ; (c) the King-in-Council, the Queen-in-Council or the Governor-General-in-Council shall be construed as a reference to the President acting by and with the advice of the Executive Council ; (d) the Legislative Assembly, Parliament, any House of Parliament or a member thereof shall be construed as a reference to the Parliament or the National Assembly established by this Act or to a member of the National Assembly; (e) the Supreme Court of South Africa or any judge thereof shall be construed as a reference to the Supreme Court of Transkei or any judge thereof; (f) to the district of Butterworth, Elliotdale, Flagstaff, Glen Grey, Kentani , Mount Ayliff, Mount Frere, Port St. Johns, St. Marks or Willowvale shall be construed respectively as a reference to the district of Gcuwa, Xhora, Siphaqeni, Cacadu , Centani , Maxesibeni, Kwabhaca, Umzimvubu , Cofimvaba or Gatyana ; (g) Emigrant Tembuland shall be construed as a reference to Western Tembuland and as including a reference to the district of Cacadu ; (h) East Griqualand or Griqualand East shall be construed as including a reference to the district of Herschel ; (i) the Official Gazette or the Official Gazette of the Transkei shall be construed as a reference to the Government Gazette of the Republic. (4) If any provision of subsection (1 ), (2) or (3) gives rise to administrative difficulty the President may by proclamation in the Gazette make such provision as he may deem necessary to remove such difficulty.
61. All Government land which at the commencement of this Act or at any time thereafter is reserved for occupation by the tribes or communities residing thereon shall (a) vest in the President subject to any existing charge, obligation or trust on or over such land or otherwise lawfully affecting the same; (b) continue to be used and administered for the settlement , support, benefit and material and moral welfare of such tribes or communities ; and (c) not be alienated or in any way diverted from the purpose for which such land is reserved except under the authority of an Act of Parliament.
CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, this is a long section and it provides that all laws which immediately prior to the commencement of this Act were in operation in any district of Transkei, and all laws which upon the addition of any land to the Transkei apply on or in respect of such land, shall continue in operation subject to certain provisos. Now, under subsection ( 1) the Post Office in the Republic has its own revenue fund and is treated separately, like the Railways, from the general revenue of the Republic. It will not be so in Transkei. The revenue of the Posts and Telecommunications Department will be included in ' the general revenue of Transkei. I think this
CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman , this section is clear. Instead of the State President of the Republic of South Africa being the owner of the land in the Transkei , the President of Transkei will be the owner. I don't mean to say it will be his farm. All I say is that he will keep the land in trust for the Transkei Republic. That is a situation which I think hon members will be happy about. Previously the land which you occupied belonged to the Crown. It was known as Crown Land and subsequently, in terms of the 1936 legislation, it was Trust Land. Now it will be Transkeian land. I move the adoption. MR L L MGUDLWA: Mr Chairman, the land question
AFTERNOON SESSION The discussion on the draft Constitution was resumed . Vesting and use of certain land.
353.
persons who are the owners or occupiers of immovable property within the areas of such councils. CHIEF MNISTER : Clause 63 provides for the continuation of municipalities and other local authorities in the Transkei. These other local authorities are tribal and regional authorities. I move the adoption. CHIEF B. GECELO : Mr Chairman, this is the question I want to ask. If after some time the President decides that all these things should come to an end, is that a possibility?
is of great importance as far as we Transkeians are concerned. It would seem that the President - this curious figure - is going to be the guardian of this land. If that is so, why should there be no security? CHIEF MINISTER : I cannot reply to that question. It is nonsense. MR MGUDLWA: Why not? CHIEF MINISTER : I cannot reply to nonsensical questions . Clause 61 put and agreed to.
CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, this is a provision to protect the existence of these authorities. Anything which can be done by the President which is in conflict with the provisions of this statute would be ultra vires. If we were silent in this Constitution and said nothing about this then the President could abolish these authorities. We are now protecting their existence, to the dislike of the hon members for Engcobo. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: Don't infer things to us all the time. MR M. P. LUDIDI : This section is supported by the members of the House who did not constitute the recess committee. We are very thankful that the existence of local authorities, including the regional and tribal authorities, is protected in our Constitution. We are also thankful that the President has power to alter .... MR C. DIKO: Will you be thanking every clause that we pass in the Assembly? Let us just pass them.
On clause 22 (b)
CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, I would crave the indulgence of the House to turn back to section 22 which had to stand over because of the Qaukeni affair. I am informed reliably that the Qaukeni people have resolved this issue and support the recommendation of the recess committee. I move the adoption of that subsection. M/HEALTH : I second. Subsection 22 (b) put and agreed to.
Regional boundaries . 62. Parliament shall not alter the boundaries of any regional authority area for any purpose other than the inclusion therein of land added to Transkei except with the consent of every regional authority affected thereby.
MR LUDIDI : Do you want me to attack you? I have just said, Mr Chairman, we are also thankful to know that the President may by proclamation in the Gazette make provision as he may deem necessary for the representation on municipal or other councils of citizens of Transkei. We feel that provision whereby the President of Transkei will have power to disestablish or alter the municipal authorities is very important. We are sick and tired of the location and township system. Now in terms of this provision the Executive Council may authorize the President to change the housing system in the townships. CHIEF MINISTER : Where is that? MR LUDIDI : Is it not there ? It says he may alter .... M/HEALTH : Don't give your own interpretation. CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of explanation, Mr Chairman , I never said the President would call for the alteration of the towns or the settlement of the towns. We said that the municipality, the tribal and regional authorities shall continue to exist and to be in operation until they have been disestablished or altered - that is, the councils - - in accordance with the law. In other words, only parliament can alter these and not the President. Parliament can decided to alter the Municipality of Umtata. It can decide to disestablish the tribal or regional authorities. Parliament can do that and not the President and the Executive Council. I think that is clear. MR LUDIDI: I am thankful for the correction, Mr Chairman. I think this is more important now that authority is vested in this House. In other words, we may introduce a bill in this House to alter the municinot just the boundaries .. palities CHIEF MINISTER : The Cabinet will introduce the bill and not the ordinary members. MR LUDIDI : Well, it is understood that a motion may be introduced to that effect and resulting from that motion the Cabinet may introduce a bill. As I have said, what we are happy about is that now we will be in a position to say whether we want the matchbox system of housing such as they have in Umtata and Butterworth to continue after independence.
CHIEF MINISTER : The purpose of this section, Mr Chairman, is that parliament should not be able to disturb the provincial character of Transkei. The regional authorities' boundaries have got to be respected. We know irresponsible bodies entrusted with power can go beyond their authority, and that is why we have this section . There was a provision of this nature in the former Constitution to protect the areas of the chiefs. Transkei is constituted of tribal land and the existence of these tribes is very dear to the Transkeian people, but if they make a request for the change of their boundaries then parliament has got to carry out the request of those people. MR LL MGUDLWA : Mr Chairman, am I led to believe that in fact at the special instance and request of the regional authorities, parliament may alter boundaries ? And who is the supreme body, in fact ? Is it the regional authority or parliament ?
CHIEF MINISTER : Have I to repeat myself all the time? I am not going to answer stupid questions. D/CHAIRMAN: I think this point has been thoroughly covered when the hon the Chief Minister indicated at the outset that parliament is sovereign. MR MGUDLWA: "... shall not alter ..." Where is the sovereignty there? Clause 62 put and agreed to. Continuation of municipalities and other local authorities. 63. Notwithstanding anything in this Act contained every municipality and other local authority in existence in any district of Transkei at the commencement of this Act, including every regional and tribal authority, shall continue in existence and in operation until disestablished or altered in accordance with law: Provided that the President may by proclamation in the Gazette make such provision as he may deem necessary for the representation on municipal or other councils of citizens of Transkei and other
Clause 63 put and agreed to.
Public Service Commission. 64. (1 ) There shall be a public service commission which shall consist 354.
of a chairman and two other members appointed by the President.
(2) Any person who immediately prior to the commencement of this Act holds the office of chairman or member of the public service commission established in terms of any law repealed by section 74(1 ) shall be deemed to have been appointed under subsection (1 ) as chairman or other member of the public service commission established by that subsection and shall continue in office for the period for which he would have held office if this Act had not been passed. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, we had this provision in the Transkei Constitution Act of 1963 and the commission was appointed by the Cabinet. Now it is the President who will have power to appoint the commission. Subsection (2) provides for the continuation of the services of the commission appointed before the commencement of this Act, until their term of office comes to an end. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: Mention has been made of some laws or Act, as though there had never been such a thing. In fact, there is an Act. The intention is to retain the services of people who were such officers although it is time they should be done away with. If an Act is passed then we should have an appointment of fresh officers. The old officers should not just be sheltered under some cover, but we should proceed with new employees. MR W. S. MBANGA: No reply. Clause 64 put and agreed to,
becomes chaotic. If you take the roads, for example the condition of the roads where our own people are now supervising. What is the condition of the roads, with all the machinery at our disposal? You cannot put the blame on the Minister of the department or on the Secretary, but on the actual people who are handling the job. Where have you ever seen people so irresponsible as to leave the machine standing the whole day next to the road and then going back to the office saying he did so many miles, whilst that machine was not working all day? MR L. L. MGUDLWA: Who is responsible for that department ? CHIEF MINISTER : If the hon member for Engcobo is insane, I would like you to protect me from his insanity. I am the Prime Minister of this House and he cannot behave in the manner in which he is behaving. The hon member for Mount Ayliff is asking a very reasonable question . The Cabinet is doing everything possible to put right things which were wrong. I think you will trust your Cabinet and rely on their integrity and their foresight in so far as this is concerned.
MR NOTA: Mr Chairman , I am thankful for the reply from the Leader of the House. There is just this point which has not been clarified to me. If an official has been seconded to the Transkei from the Republican Government, will that official continue to be the responsibility of the Republican Government or of the Transkeian Government? In other words, will that official be directly under the Transkeian Government or under the Republican Government? I don't quarrel with the question of officials working in the Transkei to fill posts for which we have no people available to handle them . CHIEF MINISTER : The seconded officials have never been controlled by Pretoria. They are under the control of the Transkeian Government. They take instructions from the Minister of the department, and they have to carry out his directions, but as loaned officers they are paid by their Government. They are not our officials. They are the officials of the Government from which they have been seconded. MR NOTA: In other words, they will still be paid by the Republican Government? CHIEF MINISTER: Yes. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: On a point of clarity , may I be informed in what respect they are our officials? Are they our officials or are they not our officials, and if so in what respect? CHIEF MINISTER : They are controlled by the Transkeian Government. MR MGUDLWA: Are they our officials? CHIEF MINSTER: Yes. CHIEF J. NTOLA: Has the Government of the Transkei any power to dismiss an official should he conduct himself in an unsatisfactory_manner? CHIEF MINISTER : What the Government of the Transkei does in terms of the Transkei Constitution Act is to request the withdrawal of the official who has misconducted himself, and only the Republican Government can discipline that official. This the Transkeian Government has done and the Republican Government has never refused to withdraw an official when a request has been made.
Public servants.
65. (1 ) All persons who immediately prior to be commencement of this Act are in the service of the Government of Transkei shall become public servants of the Republic. (2) Any person who becomes a servant of the Republic under subsection (1) or who, on or after the date of commencement of this Act, is transferred from the service of any other government to the service of the Republic shall be entitled to retire from the service of the Republic at the time at which he would have been entitled to retire if he had not become a servant of the Republic. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, this is similar to clause 64, but refers to public servants. Subsection (2) means that all the people who were employed by the Transkeian Government and any others who may be transferred from any other government will continue to enjoy the same privileges they should have enjoyed if there had been no change. I move the adoption.
MR K. G. NOTA: Mr Chairman, I am on this point, and I want some information. The present situation is that with public servants there are public servants of the Transkeian Government and there are those seconded by the Republican Government to the Transkeian Government. I want to know if we shall continue with such a set-up where there will be officials of the Republic seconded to the Transkeian Government. CHIEF MINISTER : If it is feasible and there are Transkeian citizens for all the posts of the departments of the Transkei , everyone of us would like to see these posts manned by Transkeian citizens, but for decades our own people were never trained for certain technical duties. Everything is being done to train our young men for the holding of these posts which are now held by seconded officials, but in order to avoid chaos we have to get people to fill those posts which cannot be filled by our own citizens. We are in difficulties, hon member. Our own people want to hold high posts but as soon as they are put in those posts the position
MR P. S. KAKUDI: Mr Chairman , on this question of public servants, whilst I am not against the secondment of officials from the Republican Government I am a little bit worried about the salaries. From my knowledge the salaries payable to a seconded official come from the Republican Government. Now that, I understand, is a financial assistance as well as assistance in the way of giving us someone who is highly experienced in that particular sphere, so I thought (this is particularly to the recess committee) that immediately the Transkei becomes independent that assistance which was rendered during the stage when we were a growing homeland government should cease. I am not suggesting that. I am not against the assistance we can still receive from the Republic after independence, but I foresee some difference in salaries. That is, there has always
355 .
permanent or in an acting capacity) shall be deemed to have been confirmed by the President in terms of subsection (1).
been a difference between the salary of a white seconded official and a black official or a Transkeian who is directly under the employment of the Transkeian Government. I do not say that will be the case after independence, but experience has shown there has always been that difference. Whilst we have to guard against some sort of criticism or dissatisfaction on the part of the people of Transkei in regard to service conditions in the public service, perhaps the differences, if they do occur after independence between the seconded officials and the officials of the Transkei, might further this criticism and perhaps there may be complaints. CHIEF MINISTER: The Transkeian Government can have seconded officials from Lesotho, Swaziland, Botswana and elsewhere with lower salaries than our civil servants. Our concern is the services which are to be rendered to the Transkeian Government by loaned officials. We have no right to dictate to the other Governments the salaries they are to be paid. Your concern is to see to the salaries of your public servants. If you like you can pay more than the salaries of the Republic if you have got the money, because the Minister of Finance will go deep down into your pockets to collect that money, and impose taxation for it. It must be realised that if you want a parity of salaries you have got to have the money for it. You can pay your civil servants more than the Republican civil servants and the loaned officials will still come from the Republic in spite of their salaries being lower than those paid to the Transkeian civil servants. What is most important is the service and the continuation of the service efficiently. We don't want to lower the standards.
CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, this clause retains the provisions contained in section 45 of the Transkei Constitution Act with regard to the designation of chiefs and their appointment. It provides exactly what has been going on. The tribe gathers together and determines the person who is their chief and through the magistrate of the district forwards this name to the regional authority. The regional authority designates this person as chief of the tribe in terms of the wishes of the people and submits the designation to the office which will deal with these matters. In terms of the Transkei Constitution Act the Prime Minister will still control the regional and tribal authorities. Then the office of the Prime Minister will submit this designation to the President for confirmation. Where there is a division in the tribe, matters are decided by majority. The majority will say: This is our chief.. The regional authority can hardly go against the wishes of the tribe , but if there is some doubt as to the right of succession the regional authority can send back the recommendation of the tribe to the tribe for further motivation , and the regional authority finally submits its designation in terms of the wishes of the tribe to the President. In cases of new chieftainship or paramount chieftainship the matter has to be tabled before the Legislative Assembly for a recommendation. This system has proved satisfactory. The tribal set-up has never been interfered with by the Government. What the Government does is to explore the correctness of the procedure before submitting the matter to the President. Formerly it was the State President of the Republic of South Africa, but now it is the President of Transkei. Now, the chiefs who were appointed before the commencement of this law will remain as chiefs and paramount chiefs as if this law had never been passed. They will never be interfered with and they will be deemed as having been confirmed by the President of Transkei. I move the adoption.
Clause 65 put and agreed to. Designation or appointment of chiefs. 66. ( 1 ) Subject to the provisions of subsection (2) the power (a) to designate or appoint any person as paramount chief, chief or subchief, whether in a permanent or in an acting capacity, or
Clause 66 put and agreed to. Liability of the State in respect of acts of its servants.
(b) to institute any paramount chieftainship in addition to the paramount chieftainships in mentioned Schedule 10 , or
67. ( 1) Subject to the provisions of subsection (2) any claim against the Government, which would if that claim had arisen against a person be the ground of an action in any competent court, shall be cognizable by such court, whether the claim arises out any contract lawfully entered into on behalf of the Government or out of any wrong committed by any servant of the Government acting in his capacity and within the scope of his authority as such servant.
(c) to institute any other chieftainship of whatever class or status,
shall continue to vest in the regional authority concerned subject to the confirmation of such designation , appointment or institution by the President at his discretion.
(2) No proceedings of any nature shall be brought under subsection ( 1 ) if a period of twelve months has elapsed from the date on which the cause of action arose and unless notice in writing of the intention to bring such proceedings and of the cause thereof has been given to every defendant at least one month before the commencement of the proceedings.
(2) The President
(a) may refer back to a authority regional any designation or appointed made by such authority under subsection (1); and (b) shall not confirm the institution of any new chieftainship of whatever class or status except upon the recommendation of the National Assembly.
(3) In any proceedings instituted by virtue of the provisions of subsection (1) the Minister of the department concerned may be cited as nominal defendant or respondent.
(3) The appointment in his office of every person who at the commencement of this Act is a paramount chief, chief or subchief (whether in a
(4) No execution , attachment or like process shall be issued against the nominal defendant or respondent in any proceedings under this section or against
356.
the property of the Government but the amount required to satisfy any judgement or order against such nominal defendant or respondent shall be paid from public funds.
against any Minister as representing the Government of the self-governing territory of Transkei which have not been brought to finality before the commencement of this Act, or which having been concluded may thereafter be reopened, may be continued against that Minister but as representing the Government of the Republic of Transkei.
(5) Nothing in this section contained shall affect any provision of any other law which -
CHIEF MINISTER: Subsection ( 1 ) says all criminal proceedings shall be instituted in the name of the Republic of Transkei. I think it is well known that in the past it used to be "Regina vs So-and-so". That was the Queen. We started with "Rex" when there was a king and subsequently there was a queen. When the Union of South Africa became a Republic in 1961 it was "The State". That was the State of the Republic of South Africa. Now it will be the State of Transkei and any criminal proceedings which have not been concluded before the commencement of this Act will be continued in the name of the Republic of Transkei. I think this is clear. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: I would like an explanation as far as subsection (2) is concerned. If the Minister is either absent on account of death or having vacated the portfolio, who will then be sued in his stead? D/CHAIRMAN: The Minister is not a person. It is the position he holds. Clause 69 put and agreed to.
(a) limits the liability of the Government or any department or other institution thereof in respect of any act or omission of its servants; or different (b) prescribes a period within which a claim shall be made in respect of any such liability; or
(c) imposes conditions on the institution of any proceedings. think this section is quite CHIEF MINISTER: clear, Mr Chairman. It says the Government can be used under certain conditions and public funds may be used to satisfy a judgement or order made by any competent court. Clause 67 put and agreed to.
Affirmation instead of oath. 70. Any person who is required by any provision of this Act to make and subscribe an oath of office or any other oath may in lieu thereof make and subscribe a corresponding solemn affirmation.
Certain agreements binding on Republic .
CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, this provides that where people are by religious convictions precluded from making an oath as we know he can refuse to make an oath and then he is called upon to make an affirmation, which is the equivalent to subscribing to an oath. I move the adoption. Clause 70 put and agreed to.
68. All rights and obligations under conventions, treaties or other similar • agreements which were binding on the Government of Transkei immediately prior to the commencement of this Act shall be rights and obligations of the Republic of Transkei. CHIEF MINISTER: This section provides for the continuation of certain agreements. For example, if the present Government had made a contract with Escom to bring electricity to the Transkei that agreement will be binding on the Government of the independent Transkei. If it makes an agreement for the extradition of criminal offenders, that agreement will bind the future Government of Transkei. I move the adoption. CHIEF J. NTOLA: Mr Chairman, I want to mention this matter of agreements. Is it not possible that the Transkeian Government may have certain arrangements with the Government of the Republic as to what coinage we shall adopt and what pictures will appear on that coinage? M/INTERIOR: Mr Chairman, the Government of the Transkei will retain the currency that we have at present.
Protection of dignity of holder of office of President 771. Any person who commits any act which is calculated to violate the dignity or injure the reputation of the President or any acting President shall be guilty of an offence and liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding one thousand rand or imprisonment for a period not exceeding two years. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, some members of the recess committee suggested that the amount of the fine in this connection should be R2 000. Now, we thought this R1 000 was very reasonable. The provision is to stop irresponsible people saying anything about a person in such high office. Even the Press, the hostile Press, will find themselves in difficulties. I wonder what they will do one day when I become President, because they are so used to insulting Matanzima. (Laughter) I wish I would become President one day to find out if certain members will keep on their behaviour. I move the adoption. Clause 71 put and agreed to.
Clause 68 put and agreed to.
Institution or continuation of legal proceedings. 69. (1) All criminal proceedings shall be instituted in the name of the Republic of Transkei and any criminal proceedings which have not been concluded before the commencement of this Act, or which although concluded may thereafter be reopened, shall be continued in all respects as if this Act had not been passed, save that such proceedings shall be continued in the name of the Republic of Transkei.
Protection of certain emblems.
72. (1) There shall be guilty of an offence any person who, without authority in writing signed on behalf of the President, uses in connection with his trade, business, profession or occupation or in connection with any mark or description applied by him to goods made, produced or sold by him -
(2) Any civil proceedings by or 357.
(x) "inferior court" means any court (other than a chief's court) which is required to keep a record of its proceedings and includes a magistrate or other judicial officer holding a preparatory examination into an alleged offence ;
(a) the coat of arms of the Republic or anything SO closely resembling the coat of arms of the Republic as to be likely to deceive :
(b) the style, title, name, portrait or effigy of the President or a Minister of State of the Republic : or
(xi) "judge" means any judge of the Supreme Court appointed or deemed to have been appointed under section 52(1 ) and includes an acting judge ;
(c) a reproduction of the national flag of the Republic, of any official building of the Republic or of any official residence of the President, a Minister of State or the Chief Justice.
(xii) "local authority" means a municipality and includes any other local institution of a similar nature in Transkei;
(2) Any person who is convicted of a contravention of subsection ( 1 ) shall be liable to a fine not exceeding five hundred rand and the court by which such person is convicted may in addition order the confiscation to the State of all or any part of any goods in respect of which the offence was committed.
(xiii) "municipality" means any municipality in Transkei to which the provisions of the Municipal Ordinance, 1974 (Ordinance 20 of 1974) apply;
CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, this is intended to protect the dignity of the Transkeian Republic and valuable property such as certain emblems. There are silly people who are capable of doing anything and this law is preventive. I move the adoption. Clause 72 put and agreed to.
(xiv) "National Assembly" or "Assembly" the means National Assembly constituted under Chaper 5;
Definitions.
(xv) "paramount chief" means the holder of any paramount chieftainship referred to in Schedule 10 and includes any other person whose appointment as paramount chief is confirmed in terms of section 66(1) after the commencement of this Act;
73. In this Act, unless the context otherwise indicates
(i) "chief" means a person whose appointment as chief or acting chiefs has, or is deemed to have , been confirmed in terms of section 66(1) :
the means (xvi) "President" person holding office as President under Chapter 2 and includes an Acting President;
(ii) "Chief Justice" means the of the Chief Justice Supreme Court appointed or deemed to have been appointed under section 46 (1) and includes an acting Chief Justice:
(xvii) “regional authority" means any regional authority in Transkei constituted in accordance with law;
Transkei" of (iii) "district means a district referred to in the second column of Schedule 1 :
(xviii) "regional authority area" or "region" means a territory referred to in the first column of Schedule 1 but excluding any part of such territory administered by a local authority;
(iv) "election" means any election of a member or members of the National Assembly; division" or (v) "electoral "division" means an electoral division referred to in section 23;
means the (xix) "Republic" • Republic of Transkei ; (xx) "Speaker" means the person elected as Speaker under section 32(1 ) and includes Deputy the Speaker;
(vi) "Executive Council " means the Executive Council constituted in terms of section 18(2)(c); (vii) "father", in relation to an illegitimate child, means or includes the mother of the child;
means any (xxi) "sub-chief" person whose appointment as a sub-chief has, or is deemed to have, been confirmed in terms of section 66(1) ;
means the (viii) "Gazette" Government Gazette of the Republic;
(xxii) "Supreme Court" means the Supreme Court of Transkei established by section 44 (1);
(ix) "Government" means the Government of Transkei; 358.
(xxiii) "territorial waters means any tribal or community authority in Transkei conIstituted in accordance with the provisions of the Territorial Waters Act, 1963 (Act 87 of 1936) including, within the meaning and for the purposes of that Act, the fishing zone and the continental shelf;
(3) The funds appropriated by the Transkeian Legislative Assembly for the admission during the financial year ending on 31 March 1977 of the self-governing territory of the Transkei shall, in respect of payments to be made on or after 26 October 1976, be deemed to have been lawfully appropriated by Parliament for the administration of the Republic of Transkei.
(4) Nothing in this Act contained shall be construed as affecting any assets , rights, debts or liabilities of the former territory of the Transkei, as existing immediately prior to the commencement of this Act, and such assets, rights, debts and liabilities shall become the assets, rights, debts and liabilities of the Republic of Transkei subject to the conditions under which they were acquired or incurred and without prejudice to any claim which any claim which any creditor of such former territory may have had against the Government thereof.
(xxiv) "tribal authority" means any tribal or community authority in accordance with law;
means ( xxv) "Transkei ” Republic of Transkei .
the
CHIEF MINISTER: This section concerns definitions, Mr Chairman. This is merely a dictionary to explain what the words mean, which are used in this document. I move. Clause 73 put and agreed to.
CHIEF MINISTER : This provides for the repealing of laws specified in Schedule 11 to the extent set out in the third column - either the whole law or part of the law. Subsection (2) provides for the continued application of certain laws, but those provisions annexing our territory to the Cape of Good Hope have been repealed . Under subsection (d) where a paramount chief is appointed as a Minister he can have a deputy under the Act. I move the adoption. Clause 74 put and agreed to.
Repeal of laws and savings. 74. (1 ) The laws specified in Schedule 11 are hereby repealed to the extent set out in the third column of that Schedule. (2) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (1 ) and until otherwise provided in an Act of Parliament.
Amendment of Act.
(a) the provisions of Act 29 of 1897 and of Proclamations 110 of 1879, 112 of 1879, 215 of 1884, 140 of 1885, 174 of 1886, 210 of 1887, 337 of 1894 and 339 of 1894 shall continue to apply in the territories of Transkei in which they applied immediately prior to the commencement of this Act except in so far as such provisions relate to the annexation to the province of the Cape of Good Hope of any of the said territories;
75. Parliament may by law repeal or alter any provision of this Act. Clause 75 put and agreed to. Short title put and agreed to. Schedule 2 Oath of office of President or Acting President -put and agreed to. On Schedule 3 - Coat of Arms of Republic of Transkei CHIEF MINISTER : This is the coat of arms which we have today, Mr Chairman. There is no change. Schedule 3 put and agreed to. Official Version of "Nkosi Sikelel' Schedule 4 iAfrika" put and agreed to. Schedule 5--- Oath of Office of Minister and Deputy Minister - put and agreed to. Schedule 6 - Oath: Member of National Assembly put and agreed to. Schedule 7 - Design of Seal of Supreme Court of Transkei - put and agreed to. Schedule 8 - Oath of Office of Judge of Supreme of Transkei - put and agreed to. Schedule 9 . Laws Referred to in First Proviso to Section 60 (1) put and agreed to. Schedule 10 Paramount Chieftainships - put and agreed to. Schedule 11 - Laws Repealed put and agreed to. CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, I move that this draft Constitution as amended be accepted by this House for enactment. M/EDUCATION : I second. Agreed to. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, I have been under the impression, and I think all the attorneys on this side of the House as well, because the attorneys are only on this side of the House, that this parliament will continue until the date of independence. That is not so. The State President will dissolve this Assembly as from a certain date and on the date of the election of these elected members, which will be announced very soon by the hon the Minister of the Interior, towards the end of September, as soon as those members are elected they will be members of parliament and that is the new Parliament which will consider the Act. The Cabinet of the Transkei , however, will continue up to the last day, until the new Cabinet has been appointed, so parliament will be convened a few days
(b) the registration of voters for the purposes of this Act and the conduct of the elections of the elected members of the National Assembly shall continue to be governed Proclamation by R.142 of 1963; (c) the powers and duties of the public service commission established by section 64(1 ) and the tenure of office of its members and the conditions of service, appointment, tenure of office, discipline, retirement and discharge of public servants of of the Republic shall be as prescribed in Proclamation R.334 of 1963;
(d) the provisions of Proclamation R.311 of 1963 shall continue to apply to the nomination of a deputy by any paramount chief appointed as a Minister under this Act; and (e) the provisions of Proclamation R.41 of 1970 shall continue to regulate the affairs of any local authority other than a municipality.
359.
It is merely to elevate a sub-chief to a chieftainship. Thank you, Mr Chairman. M/HEALTH : Mr Chairman, you said we should ask for the waiving of the rules in order to carry on with this motion. I do so, Mr Chairman. M/AGRICULTURE : I second.
before the date of independence to consider the draft bill. I reserve my greetings to the members who will not return to this House to the time when I shall be delivering my closing address. Now, Mr Chairman, the recess committee seems to have completed its work but there may be things which may crop up in the interim and I move that this House extends the life of this recess committee to the date of the dissolution of this Assembly. I further move that the following members should represent the districts of Gien Grey and Herschel on the recess committee as extended :
Agreed to. NOTICE OF MOTION M/HEALTH : Mr Chairman, on behalf of the hon the Chief Minister I give notice to move :-
Mr Chairman, I move that the House adjourn until 11 a.m. tomorrow. We shall deal with the committee stage of the Corporations Bill tomorrow and immediately after that the House will be prorogued. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 19 May 1976. Glen Grey Mr E. Z. Booi Herschel Mr P. S. Kakudi Now, Mr Chairman, it will not be necessary for the new Act to be signed by the President. Provision has been made for that in the Constitution. It will merely be declared by the Speaker to be the property of the National Assembly. I have moved that the life of the recess committee be extended, Mr Chairman. M/HEALTH : Seconded, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. CHIEF MINISTER : And the new members of the recess committee. M/HEALTH : I second. Agreed to. MR L. L. MGUDLWA: In fact, the motion that sought to appoint this recess committee .... .. CHIEF MINISTER : We are talking about the new members. MR MGUDLWA: The new members of the committe must be elected by this House, not just .... (Interjections) CHIEF MINISTER : That is why they are put to you. MR MGUDLWA: Now, we know there are three members from Lady Frere MR CHAIRMAN : These members have been duly elected now by the House.
"( ) That whereas the Dalindyebo Regional Authority has, in terms of sub-section (1 ) of section 45 of the Transkei Constitution Act No. 48 of 1963 resolved that sub-chief Mtawelanga C. Z. Sangoni be elevated to the status of a fully fledged chief; (2) And whereas this resolution entails the creation of a new chieftainship in the Transkei ; (3) Now, therefore, in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should in terms of sub-section (2) of section 45 of Act No. 48 of 1963 consider the advisability of: (a) abolishing the existing sub-chieftainship in respect of the Tembu tribe resident within the area of the Qokolweni/Zimbane Tribal Authority in the district of Umtata; (b) creating a new chieftainship in the Umtata district in respect of the Tembu tribe resident within the area of the Qokolweni/Zimbane Tribal Authority; and (c) recommending that the State President should confirm the designation of Mtawelanga C. Z. Sangoni as chief of the said area with effect from the date on which he assumes duty as chief "
ANNOUNCEMENT
M/HEALTH : I again crave your indulgence, Mr Chairman, so that the rules be waived in order that 1 should dispose of this motion now. M/AGRICULTURE: I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to.
CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon members, I regret to inform the House that the hon the Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland is indisposed and is in hospital. We should all pray that the Almighty God should sustain his life as he is an inspiring figure to the Transkeian people.
CREATION OF NEW CHIEFTAINSHIP: DALINDYEBO REGION M/HEALTH : Mr Chairman and hon members. I move accordingly. The subject of this motion - that is, the elevation of sub-chief Mtawelanga C. Z. Sangoni in the district of Umtata is a non-contentious one. The matter may be further put into perspective as follows : The elevation of the sub-chieftainship to the status of fully-fledged chieftainship merely involves a change in terminology and there is nothing else involved. It is necessary, however, that before this terminology can be varied the decision of this Legislative Assembly be sought in accordance with the provisions of the Transkei Constitution Act. His elevation does not affect the areas over which he was designated as sub-chief. I therefore move that this Assembly should support the recommendation of the Dalindyebo Regional Authority to the effect that the sub-chief referred to be elevated to the status of a fully-fledged chief. This is the shortness and the sweetness of this motion. (Laughter) I move. M/AGRICULTURE : I second, Mr Chairman. CHIEF A. B. DALINDYEBO : Mr Chairman and hon members , I stand up to support the elevation of this sub-chief as he is of my region. It is fact that Subchief Sangoni was a well behaved chief and he performed his duties satisfactorily. The Dalindyebo Regional Authority unanimously supported the proposal that this sub-chief be elevated to full chieftainship. Motion put and agreed to unanimously.
WEDNESDAY, 19 MAY 1976
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENTS
CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon members, I have a notice of motion concerning a certain chieftainship and therefore I have to request the House to accommodate this notice of motion before the committee stage of the Corporations Bill. I do not know whether I should do this by way of motion that the rules be waived but I leave everything to your discretion. CHAIRMAN: I think the hon the Chief Minister should ask for the waiving of the rules before we reach that item. CHIEF MNISTER : Mr Chairman, the Chief Minister will not be in the House at the time when that bill is being dealt with. I have requested the hon the Minister of Education to proceed with the Corporations Bill and I have requested the hon the Minister of Health to proceed with this notice of motion so that he will ask that before the committee stage is dealt with he should be given a chance to move this motion, which is very short and non-contentious, because it is a matter which has gone through the regional authority and I hope this House will have no objection to it.
CORPORATIONS BILL M/EDUCATION : 360.
: COMMITTEE STAGE
Mr Chairman and hon members,
on behalf of the hon the Minister of Finance I move that this House converts itself into committee. M/AGRICULTURE: I second. Agreed to.
House in Committee On Clause 1 MR K. M. GUZANA: May I just ask the hon Minister to explain the significance of the figures in brackets after every definition. For instance, under (i) you have the definition of "alternate director" and then you have the figure (ix), and this occurs in every definition. M/EDUCATION : Mr Chairman, I am aware of these figures. Well, I will just make a note of it, Mr Chairman, because I am only acting in this position. MR GUZANA: Mr Chairman, looking at the definition of "corporation", which means a corporation established under section 3(1 ) of the bill , when you look at section 3( 1 ) how do we read the definition of a corporation in section 3(1 ) ? All that is contained there is that a corporation will be established and it will be a corporation in respect of a commercial, financial, industrial or other business undertaking in the Transkei or any project contemplated in item 19 of Schedule 1 . You don't actually get the definition.
M/EDUCATION: Mr Chairman, I would think that there is a definition here, although it may never have been expressed in such a way that it may appear to the hon the Leader of the Opposition as a definition. MR GUZANA: No, what is the definition? M/EDUCATION: The definition is any corporation established in respect of any commercial .... MR GUZANA: If I start a greengrocer's shop, is that a corporation? That is my problem. D/CHAIRMAN: Does the House agree to the adoption of clause 1 ? Clause 1 agreed to. Clauses 2 to 4 and agreed to.
that the fact that here persons experienced in business and people in this territory will not be prejudiced against MR GUZANA: Mr Charman, the hon the Minister of Education has indeed expressed openly the fear which I entertain when he states that the directorship of this statutory body will be the extended arm of the Cabinet, which is in turn a political body, and this should not be so where a body or corporation is concerned with · the development of a country industrially. It must be able to act independently of political conditioning. It must be motivated by the best interest of the commercial and industrial and economic development of the country, regardless of political thinking. MR C. DIKO : Make an amendment. MR GUZANA: At the present moment orporations in the Republic have acted against government policy because they are independent where the interests of industrial development are paramount. As a compromise I do not mind the Cabinet putting its stooges in there, but I press that there should be directors not owing their directorship to a Cabinet of men. MR K. G. NOTA: Who should appoint the directors? MR GUZANA: The shareholders should appoint them. MR NOTA: There are no shareholders in the corporation. MR GUZANA: Why not? MR NOTA: It is a government concern. Clause 5 put and agreed to. On Clause 6 MR K. M. GUZANA : Now, Mr Chairman, this tendency of control manifests itself more clearly under clause 6 where the board performs its functions subject to the control of the Minister. MR C. DIKO: That is the intention. MR GUZANA: A Minister may know what is dangerous to the development of the corporation and its functions. He may have wisdom of such a nature as may be forgotten without making anybody mentally unsound - a Minister who is a political head. How does that serve the interests of the people, since you have at the head a political person to supervise and direct and approve what the corporation does? M/EDUCATION : I think clause 6 is in keeping with what is happening everywhere. I should imagine that in this parliament we have a powerful Opposition which will always watch the activities of a Minister. MR GUZANA: Watch and be unable to do anything about him . M/EDUCATION : There is no Minister who will act to the detriment of the interests of the people of Transkei, so that indeed it is in the best interests of the people of Transkei that a Government in the person of a Cabinet Minister must have a say in the appointment of directors. These captains of industry, if they can be allowed by the Government to proceed on their own, can cause a lot of harm. MR GUZANA : Are you against private enterprise? MR DIKO: Make your own corporation if you want private enterprise. D/CHAIRMAN: Order, please. M/EDUCATION: Even in England where you have a great deal of activity in what you call private enterprise, it has been acknowledged that there is a need for the intervention of the State. MR GUZANA: You are moving into a socialistic state. Clause 6 put and agreed to. Clauses 7 to 9 put and agreed to. On Clause 10
On Clause 5 MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, this homing fever is an obstruction to proper deliberation here. (Interjections) D/CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR GUZANA: The more noise you make and the more you delay, the more I shall speak. MR C. DIKO: The more you speak the more I make a noise. MR GUZANA: All right, carry on and I will go on speaking. Section 5( 1)(a) provides for directors who are nominated by the Cabinet, a political institution, and the directors could well include in terms of subsection (1 ) (a) people who have been serving the Government as civil servants. There is no provision for the appointment of a person who need not necessarily have been a government servant. The Cabinet will naturally be inclined now, in looking for directors, to consider persons apart from their experience in business, who will toe the line in the discharge of their duties as directors. Further, the obvious inference is that the directorship will be a body which will serve the interests of the Cabinet which appoints it, and a change of government might mean a change of directorship. May the hon Minister explain these possibilities and put me at rest in this regard. M/EDUCATION : Mr Chairman, I think really it would be wisdom that the Cabinet is given a say in the appointment of some of the directors, not all the a directors. After all, a corporation is an institution statutory body, but an institution which can easily get out of hand and therefore it is not to the interests of the citizens of the Transkei if the Cabinet, which is the mouthpiece of the people of the territory, has no say in so far as the appointment of the directors is concerned. I believe the experience of the activity of the predecessor of TDC has taught everybody in this territory that the activities of a corporation must be under the scrutiny of the Government. So , Mr Chairman, I do not think it is presumptuous on my part to say that this proviso here is in the best interests of the people of this territory, and in any case I am convinced
M/EDUCATION : Mr Chairman and hon members , to be fair to the House I think before I move , here this House is given a specific guarantee that their interests and the interests of the entire population are protected. There will be an annual report which will be scrutinized by this House. MR GUZANA: The annual report is after the damage has been done. M/EDUCATON : Well, experience is the best 361 .
teacher. I move the adoption, Mr Chairman. Clause 10 put and agreed to.
that the Transkei Corporations Bill 1976 has been passed by this committee without amendment. CORPORATIONS BILL
On Clause 11 MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, the corporation is going to acquire immovable property within municipal areas, village management board areas, local committee areas, and these properties may be substantially using the services provided by the local authority extensively and sometimes extravagantly. I want to know if when the hon Minister speaks of tax it excludes the liability of this corporation to a local authority for rates, service charges, electricity, etc. May we have this spelt out. MR K. G. NOTA: Those are ordinary expenses. They must be excluded. Electricity is not a tax, it is an expense. MR GUZANA: Many local authorities have found themselves in financial difficulties because immovable property, for instance belonging to the Trust, has been exempted from local charges due to a local authority. May we have an explanation, Mr Chairman. M/EDUCATION: I think clause 11 (1 ) is explicit. Clause 11 refers specifically to tax. MR GUZANA: That is income tax? M/EDUCATION : Income tax and rates and so on. MR GUZANA: Are rates included? Clause 11 put and agreed to. Clause 12 put and agreed to. On Clause 13 MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman, here you have the dissolution or liquidation of this corporation under authority of an Act of Parliament. Let us assume that the activities of the corporation infringe upon the trading rights of a private corporation or a private investment which has millions of rand invested in that private endeavour and the corporation decides to muscle in and make it difficult for this private endeavour to continue with its business, can this body not move a court for the liquidation of this corporation. M/EDUCATION: As I have said, the corporation is serving the best interests of the country. In a case where private enterprise exists it depends whether the private enterprise can go to a court of law. Sometimes private enterprise may be mismanaged so that its failure may be attributable to the bad management. MR GUZANA : If it is properly managed? M/EDUCATION : If that is the case it would not be wisdom and I do not think the Government would be interested in the private enterprise suing the corporation. That is my submission. Clause 13 put and agreed to.
THIRD READING
M/EDUCATION: Mr Chairman, I would move the waiving of the rules so that I read the bill for the third time now. I move accordingly. M/AGRCULTURE : I second, Mr Chairman. Agreed to. The bill was read a third time. ADJOURNMENT OF ASSEMBLY CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon members, in 1963 when the foundations to our future development as a nation were set in motion of establishment, little realisation occupied the minds of many people that a stage would be reached when the territory would attain full sovereignty. A chapter in the history of South Africa and the Transkei will certainly fill the pages of a book which will be the subject of study in our high schools and universities. The Transkei is presently the centre of attraction to all the people in all parts of the world and as a result it is becoming the subject of international discussion. The world has to be educated and properly schooled about the historical position of the Transkei in relation to the Republic of South Africa. It is the duty of all nationally minded Transkeians to defend the good name of their country and to give proper orientation to misdirected minds. During the last 13 years of self-government the Transkei has proved beyond doubt that its constitutional development and economic viability is unimpeachable . In terms of our Constitution the Transkei will be a democratic nonracial state and the loyalty to it of all its citizens and those residing in it will be expected . The peacefulness thereof was depicted in all the ramifications of our administration and social life despite incitement by left-wing critics levelled against the road we have embarked upon. Fortunately, Mr Chairman, the world is beginning to understand the constitutional development of the Transkei since colonial days. Papers abroad which were critical of the whole exercise in which the Transkeian people decided to involve themselves by seceding from the Republic of South Africa have now shown an inclination to support our submission and are criticizing the British erstwhile Foreign Secretary, Mr Ennels, for his doubt about the Transkei independent state. I refer to the papers in Great Britain such as the London Times and the Guardian which have criticized the British Government for having double standards. These papers have pointed out that if Great Britain found it feasible to recognize the independence of the BLS countries, why not the Transkei? And, Mr Chairman, much interest has been shown in the Transkei, judging from the correspondence received in the Chief Minister's office and also the interviews which the Ministers have had, the inflow of visitors from all over the country, the interrogation that is being showered on the Ministers about the future of the Transkei and the possibilities of foreign investment in the economy of the country. Foreign countries have shown much interest in the economical development of the Transkei and are eager to invest in any development project in our country. This augurs well for our Government and its policy of normalizing peaceful relations between the peoples of the world. The Transkeian Government, through the Republican Department of Foreign Affairs, is arranging to have direct contact with the Government of other countries to explain its constitutional development resulting in our independence. The hon the Minister of Justice and myself will , before independence, lead delegations to visit some of the countries in Europe, America, South America and the continent of Africa with this object in view. Mr Chairman, our Constitution is at the point of completion and nothing will stop the Transkei from becoming independent. Celebrations for independence will be held on 1 and 2 October 1976 in all the districts of the Transkei ; and on 15 and 16 October 1976 in the Republican centres, arranged by our urban representatives . All expenditure in these celebrations will be incurred by the Transkeian Government from public funds, and no money should be collected from the people. Hon members should
On Clause 14 MR K. M. GUZANA: Does this really mean that the corporation will not be run in terms of the Companies Act and it can act independent of the imperative provisions of the Companies Act? Is it going to be a super-body ? M/EDUCATION: It is understandable that this corporation can be liquidated by this House. MR GUZANA: No, we are speaking to section 14. MR C. DIKO : Don't waste our time. We want to go home. MR GUZANA: I have told you the more you D/CHARMAN : Address the Chair, hon member. MR GUZANA: I am replying to an interjection, Mr Chairman. D/CHAIRMAN : Address the Chair. MR GUZANA: Speaking to section 14 , it is exempt from the Companies Act. Why should it not comply with the provisions of that Act? M/EDUCATION: Why should it? Clause 14 put and agreed to. Clauses 15 to 17 put and agreed to. Schedules 1 and 2 put and passed to stand part of the Bill. Long title put and agreed to.
House Resumed D/CHAIRMAN:
:
Mr Chairman, I wish to report
362 .
The best form of détente is that which concerns itself with the internal policy of a country, so that those who look upon a country may see something worth recognizing in that country; and if we order our affairs properly, if we manage our affairs in the right way if we begin to consolidate internal programmes and make them successful we may well find ourselves nosing into the international world without having to put propaganda before production. The hon the Chief Minister has bidden farewell to hon members who may not find themselves sitting in these benches after independence. It would have been more appropriate if he were to say farewell to all the hon members, because it is only a section of this Assembly which may take this to heart, the others knowing that their position is entrenched for life, and probably that is one of the main points of criticism which may be levelled against what we euphemistically describe as a democratic system of government. May I add my thanks to those of the hon the Chief Minister to those who have performed their functions so dutifully and with such dedication in order to make the legislative functions of this Assembly smooth. Our thanks to those who are in the Assembly with us and also to those who are known as the "backroom boys". The person of the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker has changed over the last 13 years. The secretaries of this Assembly have changed , but we have here a personality who has lived with us for all time and has served us diligently, quietly, without ostentation, and I refer to the stenographer. She has been a permanent institution here for the last 13 years. Probably we have given her more grey hairs than she had when she started here. She has kept her mouth shut even though someher ears were open to all that was said here times good, sometimes bad. Our warm thanks to go the mother of the house who kept the kitchen going. Then our thanks also go to the seconded officials thanks which have been capably expressed by the hon the Chief Minister. We can think of the first men who came here and held high positions -- men like Mr Mills. Mr Midgley and others. Those who have come into their shoes and those who are still with us since 1963 - our thanks go to them. We must not forget that these men and their families have had to give up the comforts of their original places of employment. They have come into a situation whose future was planned but not fixed. Many of them have had to spend the better times of their lives, anxious as to the future and what they sought to nourish and culture. We must thank them and thank them from the bottom of our hearts. We know that even if they should go back to the Republic they will have in their hearts a corner for many of us who have blundered and sought to bulldoze things into the future, for those of us who have been wise and careful, and we hope their lives have been enriched by this experience. My word of thanks is added to that of the hon the Chief Minister which goes to the Republican Government for all it has done. It would be silly to try for all it has done. to enumerate all this. Let us say If the boat which they lauched in 1963 has been rocked by many and has had a rough passage, it is probably now coming safely into the harbour. Last but not least, may I just make this one observation in one sentence that if the Transkei has been given power to handle the affairs of men and women in the future, it should always remember that power is the instrument of service. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN: Hon members of the House, in proroguing this Assembly we shall stand up and sing the national anthem. As the Assembly is going to be prorogued sine die, after singing we shall remain standing. I will ask the hon the Leader of the Opposition to lead us in the singing of the national anthem. The Assembly adjourned after the singing of "Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika" and "Morena Boloka Sechaba sa Hesu".
advise the people against certain opportunists who have already started a campaign to collect funds from the people. The main celebrations in Umtata will take place from 23 to 26 October, when the Transkei will be declared a Republic. Mr Chairman, this will be a great day for our people and it is hoped the Transkcian citizens will enjoy themselves peacefully. It is expected to be so, because the Transkeian people have been reputed for their peaceful behaviour and love of their country. I wish to convey the thanks of the Governmnt and this House to the members of the recess committee for their fine performance in the drafting of the Constitution which has just been passed by this House. The bill will be properly drafted by our law adviser and be tabled for enactment later in the year by the National Assembly. I also thank all the officers of this House for the dedicated duties they performed to make the work of this Assembly the success it has been, and all other officials who are not officers of this House and who contributed towards the success of this self-governing State. I also wish to place on record the sincere thanks of this House, Mr Chairman, to the Republican Government for the assistance and activation it has given to our developing State during the stages of its development — a period of 13 years. There has never been any occasion when the Cabinet felt it could not proceed with the normal services of the people because of financial difficulties. We shall continue to lean on the Republican Government as our friend and benefactor. May the Prime Minister and his Government rely on our future friendship and trust our integrity and fidelity in all dealings as a neighbouring State. I feel I would be failing in my duty if I did not make special mention of the appreciable contribution which the seconded officials of the Republican Government loaned to us during the last 13 years have made to make our administration a smooth one. The probabilities are that many of these officials will , after independence, continue to serves the Transkeian Government in another capacity, as Transkeian officials have to fill most important posts. Finally, Mr Chairman, my highest felicitations go to all hon members of this House who will contest seats in the next general election, and I wish to bid farewell to all those who will not be returning. May God bless you. Thank you, Mr Chairman. MR K. M. GUZANA: Mr Chairman and hon members, I very much welcome this opportunity to say one or two things as parliament rises. The hon the Chief Minister has indicated in brief outline the constitutional development of the Transkei up to the eve of independence. Some of us have tried to move this development in another direction, for we have always remained convinced that South Africa has to change its traditional way of life and allow Blacks and Whites to participate more meaningfully in handling the affairs of its multiracial population, and if the Transkei on independence becomes a pocket of Black Nationalism this shall be a disservice to the heterogeneous population of South Africa. If the light of unity is somewhat dimmed at the eve of independence, we hope it will grow brighter and brighter when constitutional changes may bring about a federal sysem of government for South Africa. It is quite on the cards that resistance to recognition of the Transkei may be strong and that critics of the South African Government may well continue to look beyond the constitutional development of the Transkei and seek to examine the moral basis for its political philosophy. It is my firm belief, however, that these countries will have to look into their own consciences to determine their attitude. In the meanime it is our duty and our function to make the Transkei a country which measures up to what is accepted internationally as democracy in its true sense, so that in our institutions of government we may reflect that undeniable truth of government by the people for the people on behalf of the people by elected members.
363.
Forestry -- specified in paragraph 3, page 1 of the report of the Controller and Auditor-General on Appropriation Accounts for 1974-75 is unauthorised and requires to be voted.
RULE 147 (b) OF THE RULES OF PROCEDURE OF THE TRANSKEI LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.
As soon as possible after the beginning of each Session the Assembly shall appoint the following Sessional Committees each consisting of five members including the Chairman thereof:-
Your Committee, having made enquiry into the circumstances recommends the above sum for specific appropriation by the Legislative Assembly.
(b) On Public Accounts whose order of reference shall be to examine the accounts showing the appropriation of the sums granted by the Assembly to meet public expenditure. When the Report of the Auditor-General is received by the Transkeian Minister of Finance it shall stand referred to this Sessional Committee
SW Mbanga. Chairman. Committee Rooms Legislative Assembly UMTATA 30 March 1976.
APPOINTMENT OF COMMITTEE. SECOND REPORT The following Honourable Members have been appointed as members of the Sessional Committee on Public Accounts: -
Your Committee having considered and examined the balance of the Report of the Controller and Auditor-General on the Appropriation Accounts and Miscellaneous Accounts of the Lower Authorities in the Transkei for the financial year 1974-75, referred to it, and having taken evidence, which it submits herewith, begs to report that it has no further observations to make upon them.
Mr. W S Mbanga - Chairman Mr. DJ Ndleleni, Rev. G T Vika, Chief D D P Ndamase and Mr. R Madikizela.
S.W. Mbanga. Chairman. MATTERS REFERRED TO THE COMMITTEE.
Report of the Controller and Auditor-General on the Appropriation Accounts and Miscellaneous Accounts of the Transkei for the financial year 1974/75 tabled. Referred to the Committee in terms of Rule 147 (b).
Committee Rooms , Legislative Assembly, UMTATA. PROCEEDINGS OF COMMITTEE. PROCEEDINGS OF THE SESSIONAL COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS, appointed in terms of Rule 147(b) of the Rules of Procedure of the Transkeian Legislative Assembly, the Committee consisting of Mr. W S Mbanga (Chairman) , Mr R Madikizela, Mr DJ Ndleleni, Chief D D P Ndamase and Rev. G T Vika.
FIRST REPORT Your Committee, having considered and examined the following matter mentioned in the Report of the Controller and Auditor-General on the Appropriation Accounts and Miscellaneous Accounts of the Transkeian Government and on the Accounts of the Lower Authorities in the Transkei for the financial year 1974-75 referred to it, and having taken evidence, which it submits herewith, begs to report as follows:-
Thursday 25 March 1976 at 9.00 a.m. PRESENT. Messrs W S Mbanga (Chairman), R Madikizela, DJ Ndleleni, Chief D D P Ndamase and Rev. G T Vika.
UNAUTHORISED EXPENDITURE ( 1974-75)
Mr D C T van Dyk, Assistant Chief Auditor in attendance.
Your Committee begs to report that an amount of R246 342,39. expended on Vote 5 - Agriculture and
The Committee deliberated and adjourned at 10.30 a.m. until Tuesday 30 March 1976 at 9.00 a.m. 364.
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE EVIDENCE .
MINUTES OF
lations on civil engineering works were much higher than anticipated. During 1974 it was about 20% for plant and 23% for materials, and additional expenditure was thus incurred.
Tuesday, 30th March 1976 (at 9 a.m.)
Present:
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE : MINUTES OF EVIDENCE .
Messrs S.W. Mbanga (in the Chair), R. Madikizela, D.J. Ndleleni, Chief D.D. P. Ndamase, Rev. G.T.Vika . Messrs D.C.T. van Dyk , Assistant Chief Auditor (accompanied by M.L. Fourie, J.T. Lunika and N.G. Macingwane), G. Swanepoel, Secretary for Agriculture and Forestry, M.D.R. Murray, Director of Engineering Services , T.F. Ntlabati, Secretary to the Legislative Assembly, in attendance.
Wedensday, 31 March 1976 (at 9 a.m.)
Present:
Messrs SW Mbanga (Chairman), R. Madikizela, DJ Ndleleni, Rev. G T Vika, Chief D D P Ndamase. Messrs D C T van Dyk, Assistant Chief Auditor (accompanied by M L Fourie, J T Lunika and N G Macingwane), R P Wronsley, Deputy Secretary for Finance (accompanied by G J Oosthuizen and J Maqubela ) , T F Ntlabati, Secretary to the Legislative Assembly, in attendance.
VOTE 1
CHIEF MINISTER AND FINANCE : Page
VOTE 5: AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY - Page 1 (Paragraph 3) : UNAUTHORIZED EXPENDITURE
(Chairman) Mr Swanepoel, would you please 1. furnish the committee with further information in regard to the excess of R246 342,29 as shown in the Appropriation Account . (Mr Swanepoel) Mr Chairman, the expenditure exceeded the provision of this vote by just more than 1,7 per cent. The excess occurred mainly as a result of unforeseen salary and wage increases, as well as unforeseen expenditure concerning Agricultural Engineering Services. When
3 (Paragraph 9(2) ) - Classification and Comparison of Revenue
2. (Chairman) Mr Wronsley, it is observed that the nett excess of ordinary revenue represents 49% of the total estimates . Will you kindly furnish reasons for the large discrepancy . - (Mr Wronsley) Mr Chairman , the discrepancy is not really one in the negative sense - it is something of a windfall. The actual revenue collected was R5 246 703 more than anticipated , and of that amount general tax accounted for R2 476 253 - that is 23% of the total anticipated revenue . Interest amounted to R1 467 836 or 13,7% ofthe
framing the estimates, provision was made for a 1212% increase in salaries, whereas the actual increase ranged from 172% to over 30% . This resulted in an overexpenditure of R73 000 leaving out minor figures. Subheads L and M provide for forest management and forest utilization . The department employs a large number of labourers for this purpose. Provision was made for a general increase of 10% in the wages for these labourers, whereas the actual increase amounted to 22%. This resulted in an overexpenditure of roughly R140 000. The provision for Agricultural Engineering Services was exceeded by R138 000. As a result of flood damage to the Butterworth dams in February 1974 these structures had to be reconstructed . A severe and unexpected flood breached the embankment of the Xilinxa dam which was some 75% completed . The Gcuwa weir also suffered severe damage by the flood . The weir was about 80% completed . The total damage to the dams was estimated at some R700 000. The contractor went into liquidation in March 1974 and the department had to effect repairs to the two structures to prevent further damage and to ensure the water supply to Butterworth. Five domestic water supply contracts were determined due to contractors' defaults. Additional unforeseen costs had to be incurred to complete the contracts by other parties. One contract was terminated because the contractor could not cope with the work. In the meantime the said contractor died and the department entered a claim for damages on the estate of the deceased. The firm with the other four contracts went into liquidation and the department had to complete the work which involved additional expense in building up an organization to do the work. Any additional cost is recoverable from the firm under liquidation . Cost esca-
total . Now, the general tax largely consists of amounts paid throughout the Republic, including all the other homelands as well as this one , of which a percentage based on the total Transkeian content of the total Bantu population of the Republic as a whole is paid to this Government by the Department of Bantu Administration and Development . The general tax statistics and the population statistics on which this division is based are processed by the Central Reference Bureau of the Department of Bantu Administration in Pretoria and the Director of Finance of the Bantu Administration Department and over this apportionment and these statistics we have no control or advance knowledge each year. What we get, therefore, by way of our share of the general tax collected throughout the Republic is something of a surprise. We can never really anticipate it. It depends on how collections go in the rest of the Republic . So it was this year that our revenue from this source considerably exceeded our conservative estimates, but it is in fact impossible to estimate accurately what we may get. Fortunately these collections usually go better than we estimated , so we can show a profit . We prefer to estimate conservatively and rather to be surprised pleasantly than unpleasantly . As far as the interest earnings are concerned, this is something which at the beginning of of the year we estimate on the previous year's earnings as far as we can, or on the current interest rates, but we cannot anticipate in advance the rather wild 365 .
for it but whether the Government would then take
fluctuations in interest rates which do take place these days. The unexpected rise in revenue earnings this year is due to the unforeseeable upward surge in interest rates during June 1974 and the full use that was made of the investment opportunities for surplus funds in the Exchequer and Paymaster General's Accounts. So again, Mr Chairman, this represents a windfall which reflects credit on Mr Oosthuizen's and Mr
the probably unpopular step of implementing it through a taxation proposal, this I would have to leave in your capable hands, Mr Chairman . This leads me to a further aspect ofthe taxation base . Not only is it narrow and the rates in the case of the peasants ridiculously low, but we also have the situation that in so far as the salaried man and the businessman or the self-employed professional man is concerned , the rates of taxation are on a sliding scale but that sliding scale has remained constant for ten years or more. The only way a businessman or a doctor or whoever
Maqubela's Accounts Branch for putting to good use funds which may temporarily be in surplus. The other large item was tea revenue and timber, and the reason for that large increase was increased production, sales and higher prices obtained for tea and timber which produced a further unexpected excess of R536 041 that is 5% of the total revenue . Other
else it may be pays more tax is when he earns more, but the actual marginal rate at which he pays has remained static for many years, whereas in the Republic and in all other independent countries the Minister of Finance each year imposes or relaxes taxation as the needs of the country demand . As we sit here today we are wondering what the South African Minister of Finance is likely to do . Clearly South Africa's needs as a whole are very great at the moment and it seems certain that the Minister of
items contributing to the total excess over estimated revenue are uncontrollable or within normal limits. They are specified on page 6 of the Controller and Auditor-General's Report. - (Chairman) Could you say how your department is proposing to raise the revenue of the Transkei? According to the figures we have, so much comes from the Central Government . Our revenue at present is about a quarter of what is granted to us from the Central Government. - (Mr Wronsley) - This question really goes beyond my responsibilities as Accounting Officer, but I will try to help you. It is largely a matter of Government policy. The problem in such an underdeveloped country as the Transkei is, is largely one of a limited tax base. You have a small salaried and business population which earns money that can be taxed , but the bulk of the population consists of peasants living a subsistence life and their self-consumed produce , is in terms of the Transkei Taxation Act of 1969 not taxable, so that, in effect, about 95% of the population really escapes taxation based on income . The only tax you can impose on a peasant at the present time is your general tax of a fixed amount (i e R2,50 a year) and your local tax of R1 per hut per annum to a maximum of R4, so that your average peasant has a maximum tax responsibility towards the State of R6,50 per annum . As they constitute about 95% of the population at present, it means that it is a very tiny segment of the population which is paying significant taxes. That is your problem - the narrow tax
Finance in the Republic is going to impose direct and indirect taxation on a variety of fronts . This is something which our Minister of Finance in the Transkei has never done or seen able to do because we are at present tied to the Republican system of Bantu taxation. If we altered our basis here and jacked up our rates then the Republican authorities would not be able to collect that tax from Transkeians in the Republic on our behalf. We would forfeit that taxation. This, incidentally, is one of the aspects which the working committee will be considering in the course of the next few months - the mutual tax arrangements between the Transkei and the Republic. However, internally there is a case to be made out fiscally for a fluctuating rate of taxation as it is in the Republic. As our needs increase, that year out taxation should be heavy. If the capital needs of the country for that year are lower then the Government is in the happy position of being able to reduce taxation, which is a popular move. That, Mr Chairman, is basically the problem in the Transkei - a narrow tax base, fixed rates, uneconomic rates --- and that is also linked to involved socio-economic factors such as the tribal sytem of land tenure. Basically, no peasant can farm economically on his small plot of ground, so that no peasant is ever really going to show a profit on those subeconomic units that can be taxed . The
base. Then, too , to be honest about it, Mr. Chairman, the R2,50 and the R1 per hut , making a total of R6,50 per annum - these are archaic rates of taxation . They date back in some cases 50 years. Actually, they are absurd and hardly worth collecting. The administrative expenditure to collect R6,50 from a peasant far exceeds the R6,50 and this is where we
only kind of farmer you can knock for taxes is the largescale farmer who is producing on a large scale. That man contributes to the economy fiscally . The peasant farmer contributes nothing to the economy as far as fiscal requirements are concerned . If largescale farming were to become possible and your farming were to become more profitable you could tax them as well. But this, too , is an involved socioeconomic problem. Whether you can alter the tribal system of land tenure and through that make possible largescale farms you will have to answer. The final aspect is that the industrialization of the Transkei is at a very low level at the moment . The Development Corporation is doing what it can to improve the industrial and business scene . When there are
get into the field of politics . Fiscally there is every justification for quadrupling the R2,50 to R10 per year and raising the local tax from R1 per annum per hut , to R5, perhaps . There is every justification for this for the very reason that you yourself, Mr Chairman, have put your finger on the vast discrepancy between our revenue and our expenditure , most of which has to be made up from outside sources. From that point of view you should spread the tax base broader and raise the taxation rates in the process. However, this is a political hot potato and the politicians (of which you gentlemen are representative) would have to decide on that. It is not for the
many more factories and business all employing people and producing dutiable goods, then our
Treasury as such. We could point out the necessity 366.
revenue can also go up, but until such time as all these unfavourable determinants alter radically I don't think you are going to find any notable improvement in our shortfall . - (Chairman) You paint a very bleak future. - (Mr Wronsley) Mr Chairman, it is possibly bleak but in this bleak situation the seeds of the solution are always there. But they are bitter seeds. Changes will have to be made which only the Transkeian pople can make themselves. Doubtless they will be unpopular but the very fact that you gentlemen here ask me these questions seems to indicate that you are perturbed at the situation, and if you are perturbed that is probably the first step towards finding solutions. - (Chairman) Of the tiny segment of the population which you say can contribute sizeable taxes, what would you say is the amount in tax which is channelled to the Republic from here in company taxes and so on? - (Mr Wronsley) I saw an analysis the other day of what we might expect if the East London Receiver of Revenue transferred his activities to the Transkei, as they will be in October, that is all your white taxpayers and the business concerns which at present pay tax to the Republic . When those files are transferred here and they have to pay Transkeian tax it appears to me, although I am speaking subject to correction here, that the
They were mainly small amounts of between R9 and R15 - all of them of that order except for one of about R60 and it was just not feasible to collect them . The Treasury was therefore obliged to write off the amount. I may add that the Controller and Auditor-General was consulted at that time by the department. I read from the letter of the Secretary for Education to the Treasury as follows: "The officer responsible for the loss of the boarding fees cannot be traced. The Controller and Auditor-General has stated that he will raise no objection if the Treasury is prepared to write off the loss." That was Minute TAD 124- A dated 17 February 1975 from the Auditor-General. So this was done at that stage with Audit's concurrence . - (Rev. G T Vika) Do I understand that the officer concerned could not be traced? - (Mr Wronsley) That's right . - (Rev Vika) Does this mean he had gone to ground somewhere? - (Mr Wronsley) Sir, when a man owes money it is marvellous how he disappears and goes underground and it is impossible to find him. In essence , no doubt ifyou put out a police dragnet involving the whole police force all over the country you may trace him, but you have to be realistic about this. For a series of small amounts involving R600 it just isn't a worthwhile proposition for them to go after him. - (Chief D D P Ndamase) Can you explain about the forest revenue written off? How did it come about that it was written off? - (Mr Wronsley) The amount is R554, but I haven't an indication with me and I cannot tell you off-hand. It is a relatively small amount and I think you will find it is people who order timber. They collect it and subsequently it is discovered that they have taken more than they should have. Accounts are sent to them but you
amount of tax which at present goes to the Republic from these White and Coloured taxpayers and from companies is about R32 million a year. That is the figure that I have in mind, but it is open to correction. It would make a difference but it would still fall very far short of balancing our budget, because again it is a small number of people - relatively highly paid people, but a very small number.
PARAGRAPH 9(3) - Revenue Written Off - Boarding Fees
never get the money . Just to get the thing into proportion, if we turn to the statement of revenue on page 28 you will find that forest revenue runs to million and to have an amount of R554 unR1 collected in that amount is not a bad batting average . I don't think it is subject to a serious criticism , that in a big organisation you get a little element of bad debt like that .
3. (Chairman) Mr Wronsley, as boarding fees are payable in advance could you please explain under what circumstances these fees had to be written off. - (Mr Wronsley) Yes, Mr Chairman, boarding fees are payable in advance but actually in practice the pupils are allowed two weeks in which to pay the full amount for the quarter. It is not that they have to pay as they walk into the school. In practice a period of two weeks' grace is allowed. Now, for humanitarian reasons and because it would be impracticable to turn a pupil out of school in order to go home to fetch the money if the parents did not provide the funds within the two weeks' period of grace, pupils are often allowed to remain at the hostel but when
PAGE 4 (Paragraph 14) - Contribution by South African Railways and Harbours towards Upkeep of Roads.
4. (Chairman) Mr Wronsley, please inform this committee whether the annual contribution by the SAR & H Administration has since been received. (Mr Wronsley) Mr.Chairman, firstly I think one must clarify the position of the S A Railways. The S A Rail. ways is exempt from road tax. They are not in fact obliged to pay us anything at all but they have , out of the goodness of their hearts, shall we say, on those roads which they regularly use made regular contributions. It appears that in this particular year the contribution was too late for inclusion, but on 28 January 1976 an amount of R46 601 was received which eliminated the backlog, so we got our money from them. They are not actually obliged to pay on any particular date - in fact, they are not really
eventually they have to be turned out it transpires by then that the fees are irrecoverable . The assistance of magistrates is sought in these cases , but mostly they are unable to recover the fees. These people are indigent and you cannot get money out of a stone. In this particular instance of R605 it was at the Sigcau Training School at Flagstaff where the situation arose. The superintendent of the hostel reported to the office that the losses had arisen before his term ofoffice commenced and as the clerk at that time was no longer in the service he asked the department what was to be done and the department found , after the Accounting Officer had gone into the matter, that there was no way of recovering the amounts.
obliged to pay at all, so we can't cut up rough about it. We queried the Department of Bantu Administration and Development on the late receipt of this
367.
money and in his letter F53/28 of 21 January 1976 the Secretary for Bantu Administration stressed that the contribution by the SAR & H was completely
question, but I will try. The department has instituted internal control measures and the Department of the Chief Minister and Finance are the watchdogs
voluntary. That is the crux of the whole matter they send it when they feel like it and we must accept that situation. - (Mr R Madikizela) We hope they keep it up even after independence. ― (Mr Wronsley) The road motor services are to be taken over by the Transkeian Government itself, so I feel the problem will solve itself. It will be part of our own administration expenses from now onwards.
of the Treasury. We have an inspectorate branch which sends people out to the districts to inspect all the books of the magistrates' offices and semi-government bodies like the lower authorities, tribal and regional authorities, but as it is, Mr Chairman, out of a staff complement of eight we have only one unit left . There are seven vacancies. It takes time to train
PAGE 6 (Paragraph 19(3)) -– Theft of Government Money.
5. (Chairman) Mr Wronsley, could you please enlighten the committee further or this matter and advise whether the theft could be contributed to a lack of internal check and control. - (Mr. Wronsley) Mr Chairman. I have brought Mr Maqubela with me, who is the understudy Control Accountant under whose direct control this division and section fell and who was in overall control at the time of this theft. I think it will be appropriate and good experience for Mr Maqubela if, with your permission, Mr Maqubela could answer that question for you. (Mr. Maqubela) Mr Chairman , adequate measures for internal checking and control have been laid down , but through pressure of work arising from staff shortages and a weak sense of responsibility by the supervising officials, regular checks were not carried out as often as prescribed . The petty cash was found to be R151,38 short and the cashier was arrested , tried, found guilty of the theft, imprisoned and discharged from the service. His immediate supervisor was alsc arrested but the charge against him was later withdrawn by the public prosecutor, although criminal proceedings may be renewed at a later date . The shortage has been fully recovered as follows : R64,34 from the cashier's undrawn salary and pension contributions ; R43,52 from his immediate supervisor; another R43,52 from the head of the section - Total R151,38 : No further departmental action was taken against the two senior officers concerned as it was felt that serious reprimands and the recovery of R43,52 from each of them in terms of Treasury instruction 0732 was sufficient punishment and would be an adequate deterrent for the future . - (Rev Vika) Was it actually established that the clerk concerned did steal the money? - (Mr Maqubela) Yes, it was established . - (Mr Wronsley) This was not a departmental enquiry, but a criminal charge . The recovery of the amount took place administratively, however, and we got it from his salary and pension contributions that is. the clerk who went to gaol - but we also knocked his immediate supervisor who should have checked the books properly and also the head of the section who should have seen that the supervisor checked the books, so all along the line the responsibility was brought home to those concerned .-(Chairman) There are instances of theft at almost all levels and this includes the private sector. What is the Government planning to do to stamp out this attitude? One would say it is so well organized that something must be done to break it down. (Mr Maqubela) Mr Chairman, I don't know whether I am competent to answer that 368.
a man to become a competent inspector, so we are back to square one. I may also mention that at the present moment in the Accounts Branch we have a staff shortage of 20 out of a staf: complement of 60. - (Mr Wronsley) Mr Chairman, may I add something at this point which is very relevant to the whole problem. We are speaking plainly here and there is a reluctance on the part of staff to join the inspection teams. It has been our unhappy experience , because it is a job which carries some risk element , thai our inspection team turns up at a particular office and discovers discrepancies, but when the discrepancy is discovered these inspectors become the subject of intimidation and threats from the guily party. They threaten that if the discrepancy is revealed the inspector's life may be in danger. These threats are very real and our inspectors in some cases are armed for protection of their lives but it still makes the work very unpopular. This is one of the reasons why our team broke up . We had at one stage a functioning team of inspectors but they broke up for various reasons. There was drinking, there was insubordination, but basically they wanted to get out of this inspection work. They did not relish the idea of work which was in essence dangerous, and that situation will have to change before we can notably tighten up on those controls . Perhaps I may just ask your view, Mr Chairman, on an idea I had the other day. To make this work more acceptable I was thinking of possibly proposing something along the lines of the Republican Department of Customs and Excise . They have a system of bonuses and rewards for zealous customs officers who discover irregularities such as the importation of contraband . They have an interest in discovering these things . It also helps them to resist the temptation to accept bribes from people who are so discovered . We haven't progressed far with this but we are reaching a situation of desperation now where we are thinking of anything. Perhaps this committee, which is a watchdog of the Legislative Assembly , could give us an idea, off the cuff, of how they feel about some sort of system of incentives to the inspection team to discover and reveal these discrepancies. This may help us decide our course of action. (Chairman) It is a very good suggestion . All of us must work together to find a solution . Off the cuffI would say it is the attitude to everything and we have
got to correct that attitude . A sense of ownership must be developed so that they don't regard themselves as individuals. They are a nation and must be concerned with nation-building . --- (Rev Vika) Would you say the risk of being an inspector is more than that of a police officer? - (Mr Wronsley) Yes and no, Mr Chairman . Yes in the sense that a policeman is readily identified as an officer of the law. He wears a uniform and that uniform already affords him a measure of
that before the Transkeian Government came into existence there were fewer discrepancies as far as the money was concerned, where everybody knew it was the white man's money, the white Government and so on, than is the case now. As far as I am concerned I think all the clerks are aware that this is the
protection. Frequently he is openly armed and has a revolver on him. That already induces in people a respect for that man, whereas our inspector turns up in civilian clothes and looks just like any other clerk. To that extent he is in a more exposed position. He is not readily recognized as an arm of the law and this puts him at a disvantage. He is even regarded as something of a traitor. When he discovers discrepancies and indicates that he is going to reveal them he is regarded as something of a scab who has let the side down. It is an attitude of mind . As you say, if the general public covers up for the man who is stealing money then the inspector remains on the wrong side of things. When he reveals a man as a thief, it is not - it is the inthe thief in the end who is in the dock – spector. — (Mr Ndleleni) This question of inspectors, as far as I am concerned , comes late when the damage has already been done in the office. Is there no routine in these offices whereby every morning the clerks are checked? - (Mr Wronsley) Mr Oosthuizen, our Control Accountant, and Mr Maqubela are steeped in the knowledge of the checks and balances. Perhaps Mr Oosthuizen can contribute an answer. -- (Mr Oosthuizen) Mr Chairman, I think the controls are there but of course in most cases these controls should be observed by the magistrates' staff and by supervising officers who have been appointed specifically for that purpose in the magistrates' offices and in all offices where money is handled , so I think the measures are there but are just not being maintained. - (Mr Ndleleni) In other words, it would appear that these officers are not quite efficient in handling their duties? (Mr Wronsley) That's right. The weakest link in our chain of control is the human link. We have extensive regulations which cover every conceivable aspect of handling public moneys. Mr van Dyk will know that. There are ancillary instructions which we send out from time to time when we discover weaknesses or gaps in the main instructions, but if your supervisor and checking officer do not apply those regulations it all, of course, goes for nought. But you are quite right, Sir, that the breaching of these regulations is the main fault which has to be remedied, and this is one of human and not regulatory weakness. - (Mr Maqubela) I don't know whether I am competent or allowed to express a few ideas, Mr Chairman, but I think the attitude of our civil servants is totally wrong. They have the idea that they are working for a white man and yet they are not handling the white man's money. It is their own money and the sooner they realise that they are working for their own government the better. The majority of them feel that to be convicted of stealing government money
Transkeian Government. This is their government. I don't think it is because they consider it is the white man's money, because there were fewer such thefts during the period of the white government. I am only expressing an opinion here. - (Mr Wronsley) Mr Chairman, we are treading on thin ice now, but since we are speaking openly on this matter it is a fact that as a result of the reduction in the number of experienced white seconded magistrates the quality of the control to which you are referring has definitely gone down. We are not speaking now in racialistic terms, but merely on the facts of the situation. Many of the black controlling officers who have taken over are relatively inexperienced . They are also men who are subject to the intimidation to which the inspectorate is also subject and there is no doubt that the quality of financial control has, since the Transkei Government came into existence , decreased. It is something which we hope will rectify itself as the black control officers become more self-confident in their work, and as they gain experience it will change. But the conclusion which you draw there is probably the correct one but I don't think there is much that can be done about it in the short term. It is one of those things which will have to be ironed out over the years, particularly as the young crop of Transkeian supervisory staff become more confident in their jobs, less afraid to take their clerks to task. It is a temporary regression which should iron itself out in the course of the next ten years or so . In that period we will just have to put up with it. There is no prospect of turning back the clock and bringing in teams of experienced auditors and inspectors from outside to remedy it. The Transkei will have to improve its own standards and that is what we are all aiming at, but it takes more than a day to build Rome. - (Rev Vika) Mr Chairman, does the department hold any seminars for its staff to be trained in how to handle these financial matters? - (Mr
bears no stigma at all. The only stigma is when you steal somebody's beast, but I think the right attitude should be impressed on our people and I think the politicians should help us. - (Chairman) At least each district has a magistrate. Would you say the control officers are subject to this type of attitude as well? — (Mr. Maqubela) No, not all the controlling officers, Sir. I mean the junior officers . The checking is done by the control officers, but it is the junior clerks who are to blame. They don't bother at all beacuse they are working for the white man. They think it is the white man's money. (Mr Ndleleni) Mr Chairman , referring to what the last speaker said, it is my belief
369.
Oosthuizen) Mr Chairman, not the department, but I think the Public Service Commission has courses from time to time and our officers all over the Transkei do participate in these courses. The courses are there and I think if I must reply to your question I must say that this is being done . ― (Mr Wronsley) Mr Oosthuizen actually helped prepare these courses to fit our requirements exactly, but you must know, Mr Chairman, that training these days is only organized from the offices of the Public Service Commission. Each department has its own training officer and the depth and quality which each department gives its officers depends to a very large extent on the enthusiasm of the training officer in that department . It may vary from department to department, but Mr Oosthuizen and Mr Maqubela, as Control Accountants, were instrumental in providing the Public Service Commission with the expertise which has been built into the courses presented . So as far as it is possible to present theoretical training it has been done. (Chairman) Am I correct in gathering from these
replies that there is not sufficient co-operation between the Public Service Commission and the departments in so far as training with the intention of upgrading the quality of the officers is concerned? Can we do anything to co-ordinate the training of these officers? - (Mr Wronsley) Mr Chairman , there is no formal course for inspectors as such . An inspector is someone who has grown up in Accounts, and after many years of the hurlyburly of running offices, of meeting the daily problems and learning the ropes he is taken into the inspectorate as a man who knows his way around the revenue office. It is basically a question of experience that counts there. No amount of formal training stretching over a few weeks will turn a junior clerk into an inspector. You just can't do it. You gentlemen who are officers of the court will know that you can get an enthusiastic young lawyer emerging from university. His ink is hardly dry on his diploma and he is ready to take on the bench, but there, too , you have got to knock the corners off him over a period of years. It is the same with accountants and auditors as well. Mr van Dyk will know that an auditor is not a chap who is just created out of a course. He grows up with the job over a number of years. He learns the tricks the hard way and this is the situation here. I am satisfied with the Public Service Commission and the courses they present in the theory are sound. But our problem also is the high staff turnover. You train a man up to the highest pitch of efficiency and then one of the Banks or someone else takes him on at a much higher salary . We serve, in fact, as a training ground for the private sector. In that respect we are not averse to doing our duty . We understand that if the man stays in the Transkei at least we have trained an efficient clerk, or if the courts have trained an efficient public prosecutor and he is eventually recruited by a firm of attorneys his services are not lost to the Transkei, but it makes the task of building up any sort of team based on experience extremely difficult. PAGE 6 - Appropriation Account
6. (Chairman) Mr Wronsley, in the explanation of the causes of variations between Expenditure and Vote the following remarks appear: - "Subhead E - Excess due to unforseen preliminary expenditure in
was found that he had underquoted an amount of R5 000. At that stage the wheels were turning, Mr Chairman. Publicity was advanced that we were going to take part and there was no possibility of withdrawing at that late stage. We had little option , therefore, but to agree to pay the additional R5 000. I may mention that our exhibit gained a gold medal and in fact very nearly gained the grand prize as well , and we feel that the money overall, including the additional R5 000 , was well spent . That was the bulk of our overspending on that head . Then also , because this exhibit caused such widespread interest, it was discovered that the number of brochures we had printed were snapped up at such a rate that we had nothing left for our Branch, Information , to distribute to distinguished visitors, politicians and so on who pass through the Transkei all the time, so we had to go to the presses again and turn out an additional thousand copies. You gentlemen have probably seen this brochure . This cost an additional amount of R1 786 which we hadn't budgeted for. Now, the thousand extra copies plus the excess on the design came to a total cost of R6 786 but after taking into account small savings on other items under the same subhead our total overspending under that Subhead E - Miscellaneous amounted to R6 342,14. That is the full story of our overspending here . - (Chairman) Under Subhead J(a) - "Saving due to fewer bursaries having been granted as the opening of the Umtata branch of the University of Fort Hare was delayed ." Would you please advise the committee of the reasons for the delay. - (Mr Wronsley) Firstly, Mr Chairman, it is important to note that Fort Hare is an autonomous educational body over which the Transkeian Government as such has no control. The Chief Minister requested Fort Hare to open a branch here at the beginning of 1975 and the Public Service Commission here, in anticipation of that opening, provided additional bursary funds on our estimates for intending part-time students at the local branch. Now, in the event , the lack of staff on the part of Fort Hare, difficulties with academic accommodation and with residential accommodation and also , incidentally, a very poor response from potential students led to the University of Fort Hare, at their discretion, not at ours, to postpone the opening until the 1976 academic year. As a result, the money which had been provided on the Public Service Commission vote, which is part of our department's vote, for assisting these intending students could not be spent in 1975. It was something which was completely out of our control and we were left with the excess funds which we had to surrender. -
connexion with exhibit at Rand Show in April 1975." Would you please enlighten the committee further on this matter. - (Mr Wronsley) Mr Chairman, this is quite a straightforward situation. In September 1974 it was decided at short notice to participate in the 1975 Rand Show. We were asked by the XDC whether we wished to take up pavilion space and enter an exhibit for the Transkei. It was something we had never done before and we were fortunate in securing at short notice the services of a professional designer. He came down here and we explained to him what we wanted to put over. At that stage he hadn't drawn up any designs and he gave us an estimate of what the pavilion would look like and what the cost would be. September is also approximately the time we prepare our estimates for the coming financial year and in the event, when the design was finalized in early 1975 , and he was able to be more explicit in regard to the design and to the price , it
(Mr Madikizela) With regard to subhead G, could we read that explanation with the circular that I learn from good authority has been issued by the Department of Health deterring the tribal authorities from pressing too hard with building operations for clinics? Is this a service we can afford to postpone? - (Mr Wronsley) Through you, Mr Chairman, I am not aware of this circular from the Department of Health to which you refer. Is this a recent circular? (Chairman) Yes, I also have information that the Department of Health sent round a circular to say that all activities and operations must be suspended because of lack of funds. - (Mr Wronsley) With res-
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pect, Mr. Chairman, I think this must be for the ensuing financial year, 1976/77 , and not in relation to this year. The position is, as the Minister of Finance will reveal in his budget speech, that the Transkei this year, as a result of the general financial difficulties in the Republic, has been severely cut back in its fund requisition to Pretoria. All the departments have been directed by the Treasury to cut down on any discretionary expenditure -- anything which we are not obliged by law or by contract to pay out . Savage cuts have been made and it is possible , Mr Madikizela, that this circular to which you refer
Thursday, 1 April 1976 (at 9 a.m.) Present :
VOTE 2 may be part of this economy drive . Naturally, the cutting down of clinic services, educational facilities, road maintenance all these things which are close to the heart of the people must be a source of
Messrs SW Mbanga (Chairman), R Madikizela , D J Ndleleni, Rev G T Vika, Chief DD P Ndamase. Messrs D C T van Dyk, Assistant Chief Auditor (accompanied by M L Fourie and N G Macingwane) , J Burger, Secretary for Justice, J T Zeka, Assistant Secretary for Justice , and T F Ntlabati, Secretary to the Legislative Assembly, in attendance . DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE : PAGE
7- Paragraph 20 ( 1 ) Ex Gratia Payments 7. (Chairman) Mr Burger, could you please advise the committee further on these ex gratia payments . -(Mr Burger) Yes, Mr Chairman. The very first one concerns an event where an official was paying out compensation moneys in the district of either Kentani or Nqamakwe . He had to do it out in the veld and all of a sudden there was a very severe storm . I do not remember the particulars in detail but he had to make the best he could under very awkward circumstances, and some of the money got lost. I think a gale blew some of the money away. He was perhaps a bit negligent but we went very carefully into the matter and we felt justified in recommending to Treasury that he be refunded at least the amount of money that was lost . That was the R50 referred to . (b) refers to R100 in respect of depreciation of personal effects of two members of the South African Police transferred to the Transkeian Police . These members of the South African Police were transferred from outside the Transkei to stations inside the Transkei at a stage when they were entitled to depreciation allowance on the value of their furniture. At the time it was R50 and they were awarded the amount . In terms of the regulations of the South African Police they were entitled to it and it was right that the Government of the Transkei pay the allowance to them. Under the South African Police they would have been entitled to it . - (Rev Vika) Mr Chairman, I would like to know if it should be called an "ex gratia" compensation if it is a government regulation payment . - (Mr Burger) I think the only reason I can advance for it is that at the time such allowance was not payable in the Transkei and to Transkeian officials . That is the only reason I can advance. If that is not acceptable then I am afraid I do not know what other reply to give . Perhaps it was a wrong classification here .
grief and concern, but I can only assure you that from the position of the Treasury anything but statutory and non-discretionary items has had to be cut . If it has transpired that clinic services have had to be cut back I don't think there is much that can be done about it . This is one of those years when the public will have to pull in their belts because the money is just not there . However, I don't think this is related to this specific item here. There was no specific drive to cut back on expenditure under this particular vote in 1975. Any savings are fortuitous. We have had this one before , actually. You know the tribal authorities, generally speaking, operate at a very low level of activity and there are always savings on their votes . We do all we can to activate them but there is nothing we can do about it. - (Chairman) What worries this committee is the fact that there is this surplus and we read under this subhead that the tribal authorities had not collected their share . Can you say why? - (Mr Wronsley) Mr Chairman, it is again human failings. A basis is worked out for the subsidization of classrooms , clinics and things like that, and the people decide to tax themselves in effect by levies, in order to raise their share of the necessary money. The tribal authorities, however, do not see to it that that money is collected. When a man is in default they do nothing about it and the end result is that they don't raise the requisite funds to qualify for whatever subsidy they are aiming at and the money lies fallow. We have an inspector of lower authorities in Mr Lusu's branch and this man goes round constantly exhorting the people to higher levels of activity, but as I have said, the system of lower authorities at the moment has great areas of weakness. They are just not interested . I would say for the future of the independent Transkei that a radical revision of the local system of government , at the lowest level, is an essential step if you want to activate your local communities. That too is vested in the tribal authorities. It is difficult to change systems of local government and for people to relinquish posi tions of authority, but while some authorities are very good, as you can see from the amount of unspent money each year there are a great number of them which are lamentably inactive. A change must come sometimes but this is a political decision.
PAGE 7 (Paragraph 20(2)) – Thefts and Irregularities. 8.
(Chairman) Please advise the committee of the
circumstances under which these thefts and irregularities occurred and whether the amounts referred to in sub-paragraphs (a) and (c) have been recovered in full . Please advise also whether these irregularities did not occur as a result of non-compliance with instructions relating to internal checks and control - (Mr Burger) Yes , Mr Chairman, the very first item referred to in that particular paragraph is the one referring to an amount of R2 739. In that case a cheque was
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE - MINUTES
forged after it had been signed . To explain in more detail , the cheque was made out in favour of T Magi
OF EVIDENCE 371 .
for the amount of R739 . There was a supporting voucher. The official concerned signed it and when the clerk who issued the cheque got back to his office he added the letters "h-e" after the T, making it "The" and to "Magi" he added "strate" "The Magistrate". Then he added a "2" in front of the figures and in words as well, thus he had a cheque made out to The Magistrate for R2 739. He went down to the bank, got the money and he disappeared . He was eventually arrested and brought before the regional court, but unfortunately the regional court could not impose on him a compensatory fine for the jurisdiction of the regional court does not go beyond R2 000 and the amount concerned was R2 739. He was, therefore , sentenced to a term of imprisonment and in so far as the amount stolen was concerned R463 was recovered from him from his pension contributions and unpaid salary, and a balance of R2,275 was left. Now, this man had no possessions. He possessed nothing. There were no steps the department could take. The matter was referred to and considered by the law adviser and it was his opinion that we could not take any further steps , as it would not pay any dividends. There was no other official who could be held responsible so that was the end of that story, or perhaps it was not quite the end . This very man pitched up the other day and applied for a job in the civil service. He applied to be reinstated. You need not guess what the reply of my department was. But we are that amount down the drain . If at any time in the future we are of the opinion that there is a reasonable chance to recover this money
regulations on internal checks and controls , what steps does the department take? - (Mr Burger) As I have said, there is the regulation. You have to ensure and, to tell you the truth, that is one of the things I never fail to do - when I get to a district office on a visit, which can only be a short visit as I cannot afford to spend two or three days at a district office, the one thing I always do is ask for the record of receipts issued to the Messenger of the Court. I go through it and I make sure that in respect of that record they comply with regulations. If they don't I can only talk to the magistrate and ask why there is no compliance with the instructions. That is all we can do. We did it in this case and I am sure there will be no recurrence at Ngqeleni , but this is no safeguard for the other districts . We had a similar case at Libode some years ago, and since then the clerks have been wide awake . You can only preach to them , but unfortunately we have a continual change of staff which is unavoidable , and you may point out to the present clerk what the instructions are, how the matter should be handled but the following month there is another clerk there . He is not aware. Of course, that is no excuse . It is the duty of the head of the office to point it out to him. It is his duty to make sure that he goes to the precedence file and reads up what the instructions are . But if it is not done, or if it is done and not complied with, things like this do happen. We are always on the lookout for this. (c) is R1,938 , being the total of three shortages. The first one is R1,209 being pension money which was also lost by the expenditure clerk also at Ngqeleni. The matter was investigated and it was found that the actual amount lost was R1,159. The
from him we can take steps, but at the moment there is no such chance . - (Chairman) That was very crafty. - (Mr Burger) That is so . Mr Chairman, the next amount is R2,830 being the amount misappropriated by a Messenger of the Court at Ngqeleni . This man was convicted , the whole amount was recovered and I must say here that I think there was lack of proper checking and control and that is why this man saw the opportunity of trying to get away with this money. We have taken steps to prevent a recurrence of this. That is all we can do . We can only talk to the people , we can write to them, we can reprimand and warn them, but we cannot put a man there with a revolver behind his back. Officially we have done whatever we could . - (Mr Ndleleni) - May I ask, Mr Chairman, whether they are allowed to keep up to R2,000 in their till? - (Mr Burger) They are not, Mr Chairman. These people have instructions and the magistrate and his staff have to see that the messenger pays in very regularly - at least once a week - and at least once a month he has to produce all his books to the magistrate or a member of his staff so that it can be assured that this money is not "rolling" money . That is an old trick and that is what happened here . What was collected on this book was paid in as collections on that book. This book was kept behind until collections were made on another book, and those were used to pay in the collections on this book, simply because it was not ensured that all books be produced together so as to ensure there was no rolling, as we put it , of collections . -- (Mr Ndleleni There again it is lack of proper checking. - (Mr
expenditure clerk was convicted of theft and sentenced to a fine of R150 or 150 days imprisonment . A compensatory order for the refund of the money was given so he has to refund . the money, but this particular clerk has noted an appeal against the conviction and that appeal is still pending. He has the right to appeal and until it has been finalized and until we have the judgment of the High Court there is nothing we can do. - (Rev Vika) I take it he is out of work now. - (Mr Burger) He is not working there now. He is either discharged or resigned or suspended. R229 is the next item, Mr Chairman. That was a shortage incurred by a relatively senior clerk at Libode . He was paying out pensions and he was down the drain an amount of R229. If there was negligence it was just negligence on his part . He lost the money, he could not come forward with any acceptable reason or excuse and we said he must refund the money. He is doing so by deductions at the rate of R20 a month being made from his salary. There was no evidence of negligence or failure to observe regulations on the part of any other official in this case . The third amount is R500 . This is a case from Cala . A shortage of R400 was discovered and another one of R100. Two clerks were concerned . How they worked it I don't know, but the one was short of R400 and the other of R100 . We have obtained Treasury authority to recover R400 from the salary of the one clerk by deducting instlaments of R15 a month. In the other case deductions are made at the rate of R20 a month. Negligence in these cases was purely on the part of
Burger) That is so . It is admitted . – (Rev Vika) When it has been found that there is no compliance with the
372.
the officers concerned who have now been held responsible and who are refunding . It does happen, Mr Chairman. These clerks go out and they come back and they tell you a story that they are short and there is no-one who can be blamed . They just admit they are short, and what can we do but take steps to see that the money is recovered . That has happened in both cases. It happened in March so I think the one case should have been settled in full and the other is still in the mill. - (Rev Vika) One does notwantto appear very harsh, but it seems to me that the department is a bit lenient with these men. If he loses money and it is accepted that it be recovered by monthly deductions , surely he could be asked to pay this on the spot? The only deterrent will be harsh action on the part of the department. - (Mr Burger) That is correct, but if you ask him to pay on the spot and he hasn't the money what can one do ? If you take his full salary and he says he has a wife and four children how can you do it? We are losing so many clerks through this sort of thing that , whilst agreeing with the member that we should take more severe action, we cannot always do it. It was open to us to charge this man criminally for losing official moneys in a negligent way. That is in terms of the Public Service Commission regulations. They could have been charged and they would have been discharged had they been found guilty, and we would have been in the position where the man would have said: I cannot refund the R400 - you will have to take it from my pension contributions and my unpaid salary. If it does not come up to that amount then we lose. It is true , as you say, that sometimes we have had a very good indication that what was intended was a cheap loan, in which case we have directed that the refund be made with interest. It is difficult to keep staff and work with the staff we have. Are you not satisfied with that? - (Chairman) We are satis-
money and perhaps if the salaries are improved so as to save the Government this loss of money that is incurred every year , would this position? (Mr Burger) I am that will solve the problem, Mr not agree with me and we can
not be a good proafraid I don't think Chairman. You may talk about this for
days but I don't think that is going to solve the problem. Mr Zeka can probably bear me out because he has been at Mqanduli for over six months and he has been in daily contact with these clerks . I don't think they are really underpaid but I think many of them live a very high life, or that is what they try to do. The more money they can lay their hands on, the more they spend and enjoy themselves. It is not a matter of bread-and-butter, I don't think. I had a man in my office not very long ago who actually confessed to me that he forged paysheets and pocketed the money. I asked him why he had done that and he said it was because he could not come out on what he received as a salary . I asked him what happened then. He said he became a Christian and accepted Christ as the Saviour of his soul . He stopped that sort of thing then and had never done it since. When I asked him if he now came out on his salary he said he had no problems . - (Mr Ndleleni) I say this because I see a number of our young clerks leaving the government service to join the banks and other better paying institutions . That is why I have this impression that perhaps they are not sufficiently well paid. - (Mr Burger) No , that is a different matter entirely . We discussed the same thing the year before. We find that these outside institutions are paying better salaries. They see a young clerk who seems promising and reiiable and they offer him a better salary. It does happen, but if you try to raise salaries to fight that evil you will just land in a vicious circle . We are in that vicious circle as it is, and I have no solution to suggest there. We have increased our salaries. Last year there were substantial increases and to take the clerks in head office, the fairly junior ones,
fied, but we are not happy about this and it is hoped the department will not cease trying to find ways and means of either screening these clerks before they are placed in responsible positions or ensuring more effective control because this sort of thing gives a very bad reflection not only on that department but on the whole Government . - (Mr Burger) I agree with you and I want to assure you that we have our eyes wide open. But these things do happen. - (Mr Zeka) What these gentlemen are saying is very true , but the departments of the Government are faced with a grave problem. Gentlemn, I am talking to you as my people. Our youth are very irresponsible, very unreliable , so , as Mr Burger says , you would find that if you were to be very harsh with them they would just leave the service . As it is the Goverment is working at about half its strength. There is no manpower and the manpower now in use is the type of quality that has just been mentioned . So it is just a matter of making do with what we have and there is no hope of any better. It is a problem which should not end here. If it were possible one would say it should be taken back to the parents, to the homes, so that something could be done to instil into their minds -some sense of responsibility . (Mr Ndleleni) Supposing the salaries of these clerks could be improved considerably, would this not alleviate the situation ? As far as one can judge it is because they are short of
the senior ones, they live, they have no problems. I think they come out on what they get but they have decided to make the civil service their career. That is why they are there and that is why they stay there . (Rev Vika) I think the only thing that could help us is internal checks and controls because these young fellows go to these higher paying concerns and they still steal if there is no control . - (Mr Burger) Mr Chairman, in reply to that, at great expense and at great sacrifice to the offices, we have had all our senior officials from the district offices, our control men, our checking officers, on special courses here in Umtata where they were told, where they were lectured, where they were trained in the purpose and the manner of checking. We have courses for the more junior clerks as well and every time they are lectured they stay for two weeks. All that is being done to combat this sort of thing. We continue, we are well aware of the problems and the problem will certainly not disappear overnight , but we have to keep on and stick to it. We have got to train, to educate , and it is a process of more than just one day. It is going to be a long process. - (Mr Madikizela) Mr Chairman , may I ask in relation to what happened last year is there an improvement or a worsening condition in connexion with these thefts? You are in the department 373.
and can compare over the years. (Mr Burger) It is difficult for me now to draw a comparison between the report as we had it last year and this year, but I would say it is about the same. The last item, Mr Chairman, is one of R121 which disappeared from the office at Umtata here. The clerk of the court was the man who saw the golden opportunity of pocketing R121 exhibits money. That amount was handed in as an exhibit. It was his responsibility to take those banknotes and to keep them until that case had been disposed of. Well, the money was there, the temptation was there. He took the money and he disappeared. The money has been written off by Treasury, but you will ask me what the department did. That is one of the instances where we sent out a circular on the procedure in regard to the control and handling of exhibits. Here we have instructed magistrates and clerks of the court to ensure that in such cases, un-
to estimate? Mr Chairman, when we come to witness expenses, there we overestimated by R49,000 and I can give you the same reply . We cannot tell in advance how many court cases there are going to be and how many witnesses will be called . We just have to make provision on the estimates. In regard to exhibits in this particular year we asked for R150,000 and in the light of what transpired that year we ask for a smaller amount for the next year. When we come to legal expenses R5,000 was asked for and we only needed R1,340 . I think we are very fortunate, Mr Chairman, that that was all that was required, because it is just as difficult to say in advance what court cases the Government is going to face during the next year. Ever since 1964 we have provided for that item R5,000 and I don't think the R5,000 has ever proved to be too little. However, it is not a big amount. and for this year too we have asked for R5,000 . We are getting more departments and the chances are that we will get more claims against the Government. Whenever we get a claim against us we have to instruct an attorney to appear on our behalf. When we get his account we have to pay it . That is all I can say about these over or underestimates. — (Rev Vika) In regard to F did you not estimate for this the previous year? If it has proved too much does this mean you had fewer court cases? -- (Mr Burger) Yes, Mr Chairman, if I am correct, in the previous year, 1973/74, our estimate was for R150,000, and I think that year we spent more than this year. One year it is up and then it is down again, so it is difficult to estimate.
less a particular note has to be produced as an exhibit, the money is banked right away -to get it out of the exhibit room, to get it out of the hands of the clerk of the court and save him from temptation. This man has been arrested and will face trial. The case is still pending. That is how the matter stands at present. PAGE 6 - Appropriation Account
9. (Chairman) Mr Burger, in the explanations of the causes of variations between Expenditure and Vote the following remarks appear: "Subhead B Underestimated uncontrollable." Would you please furnish details of the excess. - (Mr Burger) Yes, Mr. Chairman, that is subsistence and transport. That is expenses under that heading. Now, you will note - Take-over of Police on page 7, paragraph 20(3) — stations by Transkeian Government. Six police stations were transferred to the Transkeian Government with effect from 1 April 1974. That is just one matter, Mr. Chairman. We had to take over and estiImate in advance how much would be needed for subsistence and transport. When a man goes out and leaves his district on official duty he is entitled to it and it is always difficult to give an accurate estimate, but in a case like this where you have to take over six police stations and also prisons which were taken over at the same time, it was very difficult. You either over or underestimate and in this case there was an underestimate of R3 200. It was difficult to be accurate, especially in view of the fact that the new police stations came over so we just had to apply to set this amount off against one of the other items. That is all we could do. - (Chairman), In regard to Subheads E, F and G the explanation given is "Overestimated -- uncontrollable". Can you furnish details of the savings, please. - (Mr Burger) Mr Chairman, if you look at E -Miscellaneous Expenses - that is where we have to provide expenses for a number of items. I will not quote them all to you but I just want to refer to one item -Prisons, Stores and Rations. You will realise that we have 18 prisons in the Transkei. Now, how many prisoners are going to be locked up over the next twelve months? But we know prisoners are going to be locked up and we shall have to feed them. They are entitled to three meals a day and how are we going
PUBLIC
ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE : MINUTES
OF EVIDENCE. Tuesday, 6 April 1976 (at 9 a.m.) Present:
Messrs S W. Mbanga (Chairman), D J Ndleleni, R Madikizela, Rev G T Vika, Messrs D C T van Dyk, Assistant Chief Auditor (accompanied by JT Lunika and N G Macingwane), M B Potelwa, Secretary for Education (Accompanied by T M Mbambisa, M T Nkungu and A Lubando), T F Ntlabati, Secretary to the Legislative Assembly, in attendance.
VOTE 3 - EDUCATION : PAGE 7 (Paragraph 21 (1)) - Contribution towards the Compilation of a Xhosa English/Afrikaans Dictionary. 10. (Chairman) Mr Potelwa, during the previous session the Committee expressed concern about the expenditure involved and the time taken to complete this project, whereupon the Secretary undertook to obtain a full report from the Director, Professor Pahl. Kindly advise whether this has been done and what progress has been made with the compilation of the dictionary. - (Mr Potelwa) Yes, Mr Chairman, after we had met here we contacted Mr Pahl and requested him to submit a full report on the progress made. This he did and in his report he expressed his disappointment at not getting fully qualified people. As you know, it is a project which needs people who are experienced - and not only experienced , but 374.
highly qualified . He says at times he has to go without the full quota. At the present moment, for instance, he has no senior editor. They cannot get anyone fully qualified, but as far as I know efforts are being made to get someone to fill this post . We telephoned him recently to inquire as to how far he had gone as far as the aphabet is concerned and he reported they had gone as far as Part 2 and the letter N. He says the compilation of this trilingual dictionary is not any easy task, because if you take one word you find it has to be put to a lot of uses. For instance, if you take the word "baleka " it may be put to about thirty different uses and this has to be translated into English as well as Afrikaans. At times they have to go back when they make new discoveries in this field . That is as far as I can report . (Rev Vika) Although I think the explanation is satisfactory, Mr Chairman, could I ask from the department if they think the expenditure , which seems to run to over R59,000 , is justified? Have you any hope that in the near future this will be finished? How long do you think it will take ? (Mr Potelwa) Yes, Mr Chairman, I think this is justified . As you know, this will be the first dictionary of its kind and were it not for the fact that there is a shortage of qualified manpower I think better progress could have been reported. It is the question of manpower that is handicapping those people . I would not be able to say how many years I think it will be , but I know that the Chief Editor, Mr Pahl, has been given an extension of another three years by Fort Hare Governing Council . - (Chairman) In the light of the information just given that is , the shortage of staff would you regard the compilation of this dictionary as one of your priorities in the Department of Education? That is, so essential as to be included in your preferences? - (Mr Potelwa) Yes, definitely, Sir . He does get people occasionally but they are on and off. Sometimes they have to engage members ofthe inspectorate . As you must have heard, Mr Ndungane who used to be principal at Matanzima has joined their staff and from what I have heard from Mr Pahl he is satisfied with his work. - (Mr Ndleleni) Mr Chairman, has the Director any idea or made any indication of how much he thinks the whole project will cost when finalised? - (Mr Potelwa) I don't think he has drawn up any estimates as to that. -- (Mr Ndleleni) Apparently no estimates were made when this was initiated? - (Mr Potelwa) I think it is a matter of not knowing how long this will take because it depends on the availability of suitable staff and discoveries that they make from time to time. As you must have heard , about two years ago progress was reported to have reached as far as the letter K, but later on they made further discoveries and felt they should go back to the letter B and start afresh and include more information, because once the project is complete and once the dictionary has been printed it will be impossible to reprint or revise it . - (Mr Ndleleni) Apparently this project was undertaken with the full knowledge that they had not got the manpower to undertake the job. (Mr Potelwa) I don't think they were aware then they would not have the manpower. I think it is a matter of paying people attractive salaries . You cannot attract highly qualified people to such a pro-
ject if they are not properly paid. As you know, there are suitably qualified people who could join them, but there is also the question of security . One cannot throw away a good job for a job which will only (Mr Madikizela) Through last for five to ten years. you, Mr Chairman, what is the Qualification required for this type of work? -- (Mr Potelwa) A degree is essential, but a degree alone would never be sufficient without experience . - (Mr Madikizela) A degree with (Mr Potelwa) Yes, in Bantu a major in Xhosa? Languages. Fortunately they have someone who is highly qualified in Afrikaans . He is Rev Pienaar from Kentani, and he is a member of their staff. - (Mr Madikizela) Highly qualified in Afrikaans and with a knowledge of Xhosa? - - (Mr Potelwa) Highly qualified in both Xhosa and Afrikaans . When he speaks Xhosa you would never say he is an Afrikaner. PAGE 7 (Paragraph 21 (2)) - Thefts and Irregularies
11. (Chairman) Mr Potelwa, please inform the committee of the circumstances under which these thefts and irregularities occurred and whether the cases have been finalized and the amounts recovered . Please also advise whether these irregularities did not occur as the result of non-compliance with instructions relating to internal checks and controls. (Mr Potelwa) With your permission I shall hand this over to Mr Lubando. (Mr Lubando) Mr Chairman, the reply to this question is that (a) refers to the Sigcau Training School re receipts issued during 1969. The circumstances under which the irregularity occurred cannot be explained as it happened long before the term of office of the present superintendent of the school . The magistrate of Flagstaff reported that the police from their head office at Mount Ayliff came to him on 4 July 1975 and took possession of the cash book, saying that they had found the missing receipt counterfoils and that they had requested the audit inspector to re-examine the relevant accounting records. The matter has been in the hands of the police since then. R1,842 has therefore not been recovered . The loss can be attributed to non-compliance with the instructions relating to internal checks and controls. - (Mr Madikizela) May I ask who effects the checks for the department in these institutions? - (Mr Lubando) It is the superintendent of the school. - (Mr Madikizela) Is he on the staff of the department? ― (Mr Lubando) Yes, he is a departmental official. - (Chairman) The superintendent is also the principal . - (Rev Vika) We are told this amount has not been recovered . What is the department intending to do about this? (Mr Lubando) As I have pointed out, the matter is still in the hands of the police. It is still being investigated - (Chairman) What date was it when the magistrate said they were attending to the matter? - - (Mr Lubando) It was 4 July 1975. That was when the report was received from the magistrate. - (Mr Madikizela) Has the attention of the superintendent been drawn to the need for regular checks? - (Mr Lubando) The superintendents are aware of the need and their attention is drawn to it , but it would appear that during that period the superintendent (who is now "late") was lax. - (Rev Vika) This took place in 1969 but what has been taking place between
375.
trate. - (Mr Ndleleni) Which means internal checking and control is to blame? - (Mr Lubando) Definitely. - (Mr Madikizela) The magistrate is merely the receiver of revenue as far as this is concerned. He has
1969 and 1975? Can we get the full story? - (Mr Lubando) Things were in fact upside-down then, but the new superintendent was only able to keep the records that he opened during his term of office and there is really nothing wrong with these records. (Rev Vika) Does it mean all this blame is now being laid on the late superintendent? Does the Department carry no responsibility? Is the superintendent who is now "late" the only man who can be blamed for this? --- (Mr Lubando) We say he is the man to be blamed, although the fact is that the ultimate responsibility lies with the department. -- (Chairman) Has the department undertaken steps to close the loopholes now and tighten things up? (Mr Potelwa) I must say not quite, Mr Chairman. I would not say so because we are experiencing some difficulty in so for as misappropriation of moneys at these institutions is concerned . With the removal of the South African Police commercial section from the Transkei we are experiencing some difficulty in that we have been told we shall no longer have the services of the commercial section which used to be in the Transkei to scrutinise the books. As you are aware we are not fully qualified to handle these books. In other words, if we report a case to the police the books have to be handed over to professional auditors and they charge a lot of money. In some cases the school concerned where moneys have been misappropriated has no funds out of which we could pay the auditors. It is only recently that we have made an appeal to the Department of Finance, and we don't know what the outcome will be, that we be allowed to provide in our estimate a sum of about R2,000 to meet expenses incurred in handing over finance books to auditors. If this is not approved of it means we shall not be able to handle these cases. - (Mr Lubando) May I explain further, Mr Chairman, that what has been said by the Secretary for Education mainly refers to school funds -that is, trust accounts for the schools which have been opened with the magistrate and operated
nothing to do with the accounts of the school, or has he a part to play in the checking? - (Mr Lubando) He has a part to play, particularly in this instance, because the query was addressed by the audit office to the magistrate and the copy of that query was forwarded to the department for information. - (Mr Ndleleni) Had the magistrate detected this discrepancy? Did he report it? --- (Mr van Dyk) If I may be allowed to say something, Mr Chairman, this happened as a result of an audit inspection . The query was actually addressed to the magistrate because we were inspecting the magistrate's office at the time, but the magistrate is not responsible totally for the checking of the books . The principal is actually responsible for the checking of the books on the spot . The magistrate may go there, say, once a month. (Rev Vika) At what stage can the department detect any discrepancies? We would like to get this quite clear. When does the department come in? - (Mr Lubando) Well, the department can in fact only know about it when a query is received from the audit inspection officer or the Accounts Inspectors in the Department of the Chief Minister and Finance. (Chairman) As you can see, we are trying to find out the movement of these moneys from the people who pay them through all the stages, and now we have come to some slippery ground. We are not able to find out the culprit from the clerk and superintendent and the magistrate, and we are not in a position to determine the rôle that must be played by the magistrate and whether he is supposed to check that the books are correct. We want to establish how this machinery operates, so that we are able to pinpoint (Mr Madikithe weak spots and tighten things up. zela) Is there a directive by the department to the superintendents as to how often they must effect the deposits of the money collected over a period? Is it once a month or once a week, depending upon the distance from the magistrate's office? - (Mr van Dyk) May I reply to that Mr Chairman? When you are within walking distance of the magistrate's office you can do it daily. When you are further away it may be once a week, but if you are very far away it will be once a month. That is the procedure. - (Rev Vika) Can I find out if the real culprit was discovered in this case? Who actually misappropriated the funds? Has this been discovered? - (Mr Lubando)
Ly the principal. We are having a lot of difficulty there. (Rev Vika) Who is responsible for effecting the internal checks and controls? I ask because I think when you go to the police the damage has already been done . What we are concerned with is to prevent damage being done in the first place. How is your machinery operating? To whom was this superintendent directly responsible? You have admitted that you failed to effect internal checks and control and that is why this took place . - (Mr Lubando) In fact, the sub-accountant (that is, the magistrate) is the person, because the revenue collected by the superintendent or principal is deposited with the subaccountant. As you can see, the head office is very far from the school. - (Mr Ndleleni) Who collects all the school funds from the various departments such as boarding fees, school fees and the rest , before depositing this amount with the magistrate? - (Mr Lubando) It is the principal through his clerk. - (Mr Ndleleni) And isn't the principal supposed to check his staff before handing over the money to the magistrate? - (Mr Lubando) Technically he is. (Mr Ndleleni) And where do these discrepancies occur? Is it after the moneys have been deposited or before? (Mr Lubando) It sometimes happens that the moneys are misused before they get to the magis-
The case was originally closed by the police as undetected and subsequently reopened. - (Mr Madikizela) It is still under investigation so far as the department is concerned? - (Mr Lubando) Yes. (Chairman) Well, the Department of Education will appreciate the fact that this is regarded in a very serious light, but we are very sympathetic with the lot of the officers here . We are aware that all of them have just come to these positions and cannot have been able to exercise any control because they are just finding their feet. These questions were asked by the committee in order to assist you in your administration of funds. It is hoped you will come to grips with this matter and all other matters under your control. - (Mr Lubando) Thank you, Mr Chairman. 376.
a result these things could not be paid for in the financial year, as had been planned. - (Chairman) In regard to Subhead K- Excess due to take-over of five church hostels - it is observed that although Subhead K provides for subsidies to state-aided hostels the excess on this subhead is ascribed to the take-
Paragraph (b), the amount of R1.186 refers to St. John's College. This amount was stolen by a cashier at the head office in 1975. He did not issue receipts for moneys which were paid to him by the school. No recovery has been made as the officer is still serving his sentence of 15 months' imprisonment . The irregularity occurred as a result of non-compliance with the instructions relating to internal checks and controls. - (Rev Vika) In the case of St John's College I don't think the man responsible for failing to effect internal checks is "late". I would like to know what the department is doing about that. (Mr Lubando) The department intends recovering this amount from the officer who is serving his prison sentence. - (Chairman) In regard to control, if the school is within walking distance of the magistrate's office and the magistrate is expected to check daily did you appreciate this? - (Mr Lubando) Yes, but in this case St John's College pays the money to head office direct, not to the magistrate. - (Chairman) Which is the same distance away. (Mr Lubando) Yes. - (Rev Vika) I am worried about the officer who failed to carry out internal checks because this is the man who is responsible for checking. - (Mr Lubando) Rigid checking is being effected . - (Rev Vika) What about the failure of the man to check? (Mr Lubando) He has been reprimanded by the department. - (Rev Vika) It should be pointed out that the checking officer should be responsible for the recovery of the money himself.
over of hostels . Kindly elucidate . (Mr Mbambisa) Mr Chairman, due to representations made by the Methodist Church authorities for immediate financial assistance for extensions to buildings as well as repairs and running costs to their hostels , the department had no option but to pay the sum of R225 900 for this purpose, thus an excess on the Vote could not be avoided. Due to financial difficulties the
PAGE 8 - Appropriation Account .
12. (Chairman) Mr Potelwa, in the explanations of the causes of variation between Expenditure and Vote the following remarks appear : (i) Subhead F Saving due to non-delivery of furniture, science equipment and school text books . Could you please advise the committee further on this large saving. - (Mr Potelwa) I will hand over to Mr Nkungu, the Assistant Secretary, Mr Chairman. - (Mr Nkungu) Mr Chairman, the undelivered school furniture could not be delivered by Vulindlela Factory and could not be paid for during the financial year in question. It amounted to thousands of rand, and I may also add that when the subsidized book system was undertaken by our department the book sellers who had originally indicated their prices of text books to the department in their lists reduced their prices considerably, presumably on account of competition and their wanting to supply the department, so the amount originally voted at about R20 per pupil was considerably reduced. I know of a number of cases where people only had to pay R11 instead of R20. That was responsible for the reduction so far as the book suppliers were concerned . So far as the science equipment was concerned, the department place an order for mobile laboratories with some firm and these were not delivered until very late. At one stage, as a matter of fact, the equipment arrived at the firm from which it had been ordered but could not be delivered to us because they could not obtain certain bolts which were required for fixing the wheels to the mobile laboratories. These had to be ordered specially from Japan. That was responsible for the late delivery of the science equipment and as 377.
Church authorities were on the verge of closing the hostels in question . Mindful of the fact that in the final analysis the responsibility for the education of the nation rests squarely on the department and that hostel facilities are a very vital part to effect learning and teaching, the department felt it could not shirk its responsibility of coming to the aid of the Church authorities. It might further be explained , Mr Chairman, that there were about 2 000 boarders involved and one can imagine that the parents in particular , having been associated with Church hostels for a considerable time , actually did prefer to have their children attending schools which had hostels attached . Now, this is a step in the direction of taking over the hostels , in fact . The department wanted to avoid a gap whereby there would be a close-down of hostels before it was in a position to take over . - (Chairman) Thank you, gentlemen, for your assistance . - (Rev Vika) Before we close, Mr Chairman , I would like to remark on the total surplus to be surrendered, which represents 13,3% of the total appropriation . The amount is R2 671 000. Now, we have been given explanations which we have accepted for the savings, especially under F, but I just want to state that if the department could be helpful to us as far as they can and let them try to spend the money allocated to them as far as possible , because people are always demanding certain services from the department . Even in this session there has been a motion asking that all school children be given free books. Now , when members look at a surplus like this they will say it is just because the department does not want to render these services. At this stage of our development we would rather spend all the money we can lay our hands on , because there are so many services for which it could be used. (Chairman) Just one more remark on the question of surrendering such large sums of money, when actually the Transkei is a small emerging undeveloped country . When all the departments put together will surrender a surplus of more than R7 million, it is worrying to the committee . The request from all sides is that this and that should have been done and yet money is brought back to the coffers of the Government. We therefore wonder what can be done by all the departments to see that the money voted for programmes is used. In most emerging countries we do not have surpluses - we have deficits. (Mr Potelwa) Mr Chairman, I would like to remark on that. Our main difficulty is that when it comes to estimates, according to finance regulations you cannot use money for a purpose for which it was not earmarked.
the causes of variation between Expenditure and Vote Saving the following remarks appear: Subhead O due to slow development by the private sector. During the previous session it was intimated that the slow development at Maluti was mainly due to the type of houses to be built not having been decided on. Kindly enlighten the committee on the present position. - (Mr Carstens) Mr Chairman, the development of Maluti is, as a matter of fact , causing concern. During April 1971 sites were made available to the public in Maluti. The department decided to lend impetus to the development of Maluti to build a certain number of houses. On account of the fact that agreement could not be reached on the type of house which should be erected by the Transkeian Government, no houses were erected during the 1973/74 and 1974/75 financial years. Notwithstanding that, however, the public of that area bought + 200 erven or sites and on account of the rate at which
That is our difficulty. Even if we see under Subhead A that we shall have a sum of R3 million left over we cannot use that for free books, for instance, otherwise we shall be in trouble. - (Chairman) But you will have learnt a lesson and estimate better for the ensuing year. PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE OF EVIDENCE .
MINUTES
Wednesday, 7 April 1976 (at 9 am) Present:
Messrs SW Mbanga (Chairman), R Madikizela, D J Ndleleni, Chief D D P Ndamase, Rev G T Vika. Messrs D C T van Dyk, Assistant Chief Auditor (accompanied by M L Fourie, JT Lunika and N G Macingwane), P J A Carstens, Secretary for the Interior, and T F Ntlabati, Secretary to the Legislative Assembly, in attendance.
these erven were bought the department arrived at the conclusion that the development of Maluti by the private sector would immediately take place - so much so that the department was compelled to make provision on its estimates for the 1974/75 financial year for money to be expended on services such as
VOTE 4 - INTERIOR : PAGE 8 (Paragraph 22(1 )) — Social Pensions
13. (Chairman) Mr Carstens, according to evidence given during the previous session pensioners were being short paid on a wide scale and a new scheme had been introduced to curb this malpractice . Kindly inform the committee whether the new scheme has had the required effect. - (Mr Carstens) Mr Chairman, during the 1974/75 financial year my department, after formal approval of the Department of Finance, decided to pay a uniform pension benefit to each and every beneficiary bimonthly. The pension and allowances amounted to R22,50 bimonthly. The magistrates were then instructed to pay the beneficiaries two R10 notes, one R2 note or two R1 notes and a 50 cent piece. When the allowances were increased and the pension benefits escalated to R30 bimonthly, the Magistrates were again instructed to pay the beneficiaries in three R10 notes. Moreover, the department circularized posters to the magistrates wherein was indicated the amounts payable and the denominations in which the payments should be made, for display at conspicuous places. The department also decided to issue leaflets to the beneficiaries indicating the amounts payable to them and the mode in which payment should be effected. I am happy to state that, to the best of my knowledge, no indication of any defalcations has come to the knowledge of my department. - (Rev Vika) Could
refuse removal, maintenance of streets, maintenance of buildings, etc. The expected development of Maluti by the private sector did , for unknown reasons, not materialize and therefore the department could not expend any portion of the amount estimated for those services. I may mention, Mr Chairman, that as far as the Government is concerned , the Government has done its part as far as the development of Maluti as such is concerned . My department considers that it is now on the shoulders of the private sector to come forward and develop Maluti, because the Government has already made streets, provided water, erected the magistrate's office, provided facilities for the Department of Agriculture and Forestry and the Department of Roads and Works, and that is why the department feels that the Government has, as a matter of fact, done its share. To prove that the department is concerned with the development of Maluti by the private sector, the department has now obtained ministerial approval to give notice to the owners of those erven to start developing those sites within a reasonable period. - (Mr Ndleleni) Through you, Mr Chairman, as far as it is known in Maluti people applied for these sites, paid deposits on them (most of them paid the full amount for the sites)
we know whether the department is happy with the personnel paying out these pensions, because they were the culprits? - (Mr Carstens) Yes, Mr Chairman, the department is happy with the paying out of these benefits and the method of paying. - (Chairman) We are witnesses to the new system because we have seen it operating in the country and it seems very satisfactory. - (Mr Carstens) Yes, because the beneficiaries now know what they must expect from the paying-out officials and they can check for themselves. PAGE 9 - Appropriation Account . 14.
(Chairman) Mr Carstens, in the explanations of 378.
but so far they have never been told to start building. They keep asking when they will be able to start building, but there is no answer. It was only late last yearthat a fewindividuals, confronting me as their MP for the area, asked what is happening about Maluti because they can see there is one man who has started trading there. He has a butcher's shop and a general dealer's business, and the people want to find out exactly what the position is. They were told that most of the people could not afford to put up decent buildings, so it has been recommended that the department should undertake all the building and the people buying these sites will refund the Government. That was the last we were told and they are worrying all the time. There is not a single meeting where they do not raise this question and when they will be
allowed to start building in Maluti. Some of them have come to say they have even submitted plans to the magistrate and no answer has ever come to say whether they can start or not and whether the plans are acceptable or not. Some of them went as far as to come to Umtata to check whether the plans have been submitted by the magistrate , but they found these plans had not even been received in Umtata. The people of the area are, therefore, worrying me because they reckon there must be some problem that the Government does not want to come out with and tell them exactly what the positon is in Maluti. - (Mr Carstens) Mr Chairman, as far as I am concerned I am not aware of any such representations, so much so that as I have previously stated we have even gone as far as to obtain ministerial approval to instruct people to start building. I, therefore , have every reason to believe that the people will now be afforded the opportunity, if they have the means to do so, to commence with building operations in Maluti. (Mr Ndleleni) Another question raised to the local magistrate is why there is never a reply . about these sites. This was asked especially by people
of Butterworth is a matter for the South African Bantu Trust (the Department of Bantu Administration and Development), but when it comes to the development of townships on Transkei land then my department is connected with the matter. PAGE 21 (Paragraph 28(3)) - Actuarial Valuation 15. (Chairman) Mr Carstens, it is observed that the actuarial valuation contemplated at the previous session had, at the time of writing the report, not yet materialized . Kindly inform the committee what the present position is . - (Mr Carstens) Mr Chairman , as stated by my predecessor, on account of the fact that a new pension scheme was decided on by the Transkeian Government , it was as at 31 March 1975 that all the particulars required by the actuaries could be compiled . The delay in submitting the date for the actuarial valuation can be ascribed to the fact that the actuaries reverted to a computerized system which involved a lot of clerical work. A lot of forms had to be completed in respect of over 13 000 members. They called for full names, identity numbers, dates of birth, marital status, rates of pay, amounts contributed towards pensions, when they joined the pension fund, when they left the pension fund , etc. It will be appreciated that to furnish or obtain all the required information was a difficult and big task. Furthermore , to obtain the information several requests had to be submitted to the various departments, especially the Department of Education, which has the largest number of officials , and all the information has now been submitted to the actuaries , Messrs Carson & Partners, and they have recently intimated that they hope the valuation will be available during May this year, in which event the department will then place it before the Legislative Assembly in terms of the Pensions Act . - (Chairman) When you talk of actuaries and such things, it (Mr becomes rather abstract to most of us. Carstens) Yes, it is rather difficult and complicated. ---
who are working in Johannesburg and other work centres. They want to know, if the local people can talk to the magistrate as they are on the spot, whilst they who are far away cannot receive a reply from the authorities explaining what the position is. Even there it was just said that the department is so busy they haven't the time to write to everyone, but as it is the question of Maluti is distrubing to the public. -(Mr Carstens) Mr Chairman, as stated I am not aware of any person's representations. I am not aware whether those representations were made to the magistrate, as the local authority at Maluti, but on account of the fact that there was no response from the private sector the department was concerned about the issue and that is why we approached the Minister for the necessary authority to request these people to commence building. Had any inquiries reached the department , say from the owner of an erf in Johannesburg, we would surely have replied to him indicating what the situation is . (Rev Vika) How long ago did you get the authority from the Minister? -- (Mr Carstens) During the course of
(Chairman) At least we appreciate the point that by May something will issue from this. - (Chief Ndamase) At what intervals do you usually do your actuarial valuation? - (Mr Carstens) It should be every five years, Mr Chairman.
the past month, and the magistrate has been advised of the decision of the Minister. wd (Chairman) This question of Maluti township, as you can see, is becoming a hardy annual . Would you say this committee can hope that machinery will be set in motion to see that development is proceeded with? - (Mr Carstens) As a matter of fact , Mr Chairman, the steps we have now taken ought to set the machine in motion for the development of Maluti. I may mention that the deed of sale indicates that a buyer undertakes to start developing within six months after purchase of the site. (Mr Ndleleni) After the site having been approved. You see, the buyer applies for the purchase of the site, pays the full amount or part of it, and waits to hear whether it is approved, but so far no-one has ever been told it is approved
PAGE 8 (Paragraph 21 (3)) - Ex Gratia Payments
16. (Chairman) - Mr Carstens, could you please advise the committee further on this payment. (Mr Carstens) Mr Chairman, it was during 1973 when the Minister of the Interior was informed that she had been selected as an exchangee to the United States South Africa Leader Exchange Programme, and one of the conditions of the programme was that exchangees should provide from their side R500 towards the programme. It was in 1974 that the Chief Minister directed the Treasury to make an ex gratia payment of R500 to USSALEP to cover
and he can start building. - (Chairman) While on the question of townships, Mr Carstens, can you say to what extent you are connected with the township in Butterworth? (Mr Carstens) Mr Chairman, the development of the township in the municipal area
part of the cost of the Minister's visit to the United States on this programme, on account of the fact that she was going to undertake study tours which would be useful to the Transkei.
379 .
He is a very experienced coffee grower, and with the price of R1 500 per ton, as we have already put quite large sums of money into this project and are now at the stage of starting production, I think it is worth while. We will get the yields now, so stopping at this stage with all the knowledge we have at present would not be wise in my opinion . I think we must give it another go and try to make the best of it. (Rev Vika) Did Mr Swanepoel say this is an expensive type of coffee and, secondly, that it is not going to (Mr Swanepoel) be an easy market in this country? The market is a local market for this type of coffee . It won't be a world market but a local one , and ,
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE : MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
Friday, 9 April 1976 (at 9 am)
Present:
Messrs SW Mbanga (Chairman), D J Ndleleni, Rev G T Vika. Messrs D C T van Dyk, Assistant Chief Auditor (accompanied by M L Fourie, JT Lunika and N G Macingwane) G Swanepoel, Secretary for Agriculture and Forestry, and T F Ntlabati , Secretary to the Legislative Assembly, in attendance.
VOTE 5 --- AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY : PAGE 10 (Paragraph 23(4)) - Coffee Project
17. ((Chairman) Mr Swanepoel, please inform the committee when this project is expected to reach the production stage and also what the prospects are regarding revenue to be derived therefrom . (Mr Swanepoel) Mr Chairman, when the Government project was started in 1965 , no coffee producers existed in South Africa and the department embarked on a coffee project down at Lambasi. The idea was to produce Arabica coffee which is very expensive and which has a limited market in South Africa. It
therefore you have a stabilized price, which is very important. The Robusta coffee prices fluctuate quite (Mr Ndleleni) Following from your coma lot. ments, Mr Swanepoel, it appears that the whole failure on this project was due largely to the lack of - (Mr Swanepoel) Yes, we have experienced men? approached the Commission to get competent and (Mr Ndleleni) How experienced people appointed . would it be if you waited until such time as you are sure of a man who is actually going to be competent (Mr Swanepoel) Mr to look after this section? Chairman, we have tried to get these people and it is difficult to get them sometimes. I am satisfied that as soon as we have a competent man down there the production will improve. - ( Rev Vika) Is it possible to train our own men for this? - - (Mr Swanepoel) It is the intention to train the Xhosa people to take over these projects, but it should be remembered in the first place that an ordinary agricultural diploma is not sufficient for these specialized crops. A man needs special training in this because it is a subtropical crop, and then he must gain experience in this. With regard to experience a man can be taught pruning and cropping and the like, but when you come to the professional side of things such as judging the soil types and the effect of climate on the plant , it becomes very specialized . The intention is to train the Xhosa people to run these projects eventually, but on the other hand if you don't have the compe-
hasn't got the price fluctuations of the other type of coffee which we usually buy the Robusta coffee. We started this project and had a man here who knew something about coffee and tea, but he became very much involved with the tea project and we experienced some difficulties in the coffee project . In 1970 we had an experienced coffee grower who visited the plantations at Lambasi. He made certain recommendations and in order to rectify some of the faults we had to uproot some 20 to 30 hectares of coffee, which had to be replanted . Of course, it takes four to five years before the coffee starts bearing. Then again in 1975 we had, an expert from the citrus and subtropical Research Institute in Nelspruit. He also made certain recommendations as far as the
tent man to train them, who is going to train them? We must , therefore , do everything in our power to get a competent man to train them. – ( Rev Vika) I did not mean it was wrong to employ these specialists but my concern is whether training has started. If we have to get a specialist to train the people, then the sooner he starts the better. - (Mr Swanepoel) We have already started training local people on the estate. You have all the other processes as well on the manufacturing side in the factory. This will happen. (Chairman) Is it impossible to include the subject of coffee-growing and other sub-tropical plants at our local Agricultural School? -- (Mr Swanepoel) Yes, you must have the men to train people and we do not have them. If you look at agriculture on the broad basis in the Transkei , this coffee project is relatively small . We must , therefore , concentrate on the bigger things for the Transkei as such to train the people and advise them to be exotherwise you will tension officers and the like
pruning and the plant population was concerned, and this year he is going to pay us another visit to make more recommendations, because we experience difficulties in obtaining competent people on coffee growing. We get these people from Nelspruit once more and, according to expert advice, it is estimated that during 1976 the income from this project will be in the vicinity of R15 000 and for 1977 the estimation is R45 000, because coffee is really expensive. The market price for coffee at present is in the vicinity of R1 500 to R1 600 per ton. That is the coffee story at present. - (Mr Ndleleni)Would Mr Swanepoel advise the committee whether he thinks it worth while carrying on with such a terrific loss over all these years? How about shelving this item for the - (Mr Swanepoel) Mr Chairman, we time being? have limited the expansion of the project in order to get certain problems straightened out, but on the other hand if we can come to grips with these problems I am convinced that this project will become economically viable . We have appointed a man from Angola who will be with us as from 1 May 1976.
have to keep a lecturer for perhaps two or three students because coffee is grown on a very limited scale and area. It is only in the Lambasi area, and formal training of students would be very expensive . 380.
The big plantations, however, are at Butterworth (800 hectares) and at Lusikisiki (900 hectares) . The XDC buys the leaf from the department. The aepartment establishes plantations, and maintains them, whereas the XDC does the cutting and the transport of the leaf to the factory. If you look at this report you will find that there is a substantial loss on the
It is a matter of importing people to train our local people to run the project . - (Mr Ndleleni) One last question, Mr Chairman . I don't like to appear as if I take the planners in agriculture to task, but would this money not have been put to better use if they had ignored this project until such time as they are sure of a specialist? - (Mr Swanepoel) Mr Chairman, with the figures before us today one could ask that question, but if this project is a success these moneys spent on, the project will be recovered in a very short time i.e. as soon as the project is in full production. That is an important thing to remember. We have started with 50 hectares but the intention is to expand to 300 hectares that will yield an annual income of R225 000. That is why there is an incentive for doing this. - (Chairman) Thank you, Mr Swanepoel . The report you gave just now gives a very sober picture but you say it is hoped that yields will be realised now with experts coming in. It was disturbing to find a project lasting ten whole years, with so
fibre which is mainly the result of price determination. There are three parties involved in the fibre story. The first one is the department; then we have the XDC with its decorticating machines; and finally the bag factory. The bag factory and the decorticating people are considered as industrial people and the fibre prices are determined by the Department of Commerce and Industry. The XDC have the right to go to the Department of Commerce and Industry to make representations to get a higher price for the fibre. They then come to the department and tell us they were able to get an increase in the price and we can have our pro rata share. The department entered into a contract with the XDC a few years ago at a price of R2,30 per ton for the green leaf. In October 1974 they got a price increase of 37% and they carried that 37% over to the department for the leaf, so the price of the green leaf went up form R2,30 to R3,15 . Unfortunately, that does not cover our production costs and, therefore , we nave uus loss . We are bound by the contract and we must have consultations with the XDC to get a better price. I had discussions with them the other day and we are still dealing with this matter of getting a better price for our fibre delivered to the decorticating factory. (Chairman) Would you say the XDC are also ex-
much sunk into it , yielding nothing in the end. We wish you success. I understand that the policy is that you should have an understudy in the department , but I see you are alone . - (Mr Swanepoel) I am alone, Mr Chairman. I am a professional man trained in agriculture, and we have with us in the department three agricultural people who were at Fort Hare. They are Messrs Mbokodi , Memka and Mbangaleli . Mr Mbokodi has three years' service and he is understudy to the Director of Agriculture as from 1 January this year. Then we have Mr Memka who has been promoted as principal of the Tsolo Agricultural College, so these people are coming up and they have already moved into managerial posts despite the few years' experience. PAGE 10 (Paragraph 23(5))
periencing losses between them and the Department of Commerce? - (Mr Swanepoel) I would not like to comment on that , Mr Chairman, because it is another institution and this is going to be published , but our idea is that we feel from the department's side that the decorticators and the plantations must be mana-
Phormium Tenax
Project 18. (Chairman ) Mr Swanepoel , could you please enlighten the committee on what the prospects are of recouping the large amount invested in the development ofthis project , especially in view of the evidence given during the previous session - namely, that
ged by one concern - either the department or the XDC -- and then you will get better management. (Chairman) I asked the question because it looks to me as if the XDC is also experiencing losses and they will be complaining in the same way that we are, that something should have been done . It gives one the impression that the losses are not absorbed equally by the two different sections. - (Mr Swanepoel) It may be so, Mr Chairman, but from the department's point of view and the XDC we have entered into a legal contract with them at a certain price from a certain date , but to get that price increase to absorb our losses is going to be difficult . I have had my fights with the XDC over this, and they have the other parties also who decide on the price. They tell us these are their production costs and I tell them what ours are, but that is the price they can get. I am prepared, if I can get a rise of 30% to give you that 30% rise as well . That seems reasonable .-(Mr Ndleleni) Is there a hope of this situation ever improving? - (Mr Swanepoel) Mr Chairman, I think price determination is the main factor here. There is no other
difficulty is being experienced in disposing of the leaves to the XDC. - (Mr Swanepoel) Mr Chairman, the evidence given last year to this committee relates to the very small plantation in the Ngqeleni district Lujisweni. This plantation, as my predecessor reported, is a relatively small one and they experienced trouble in getting an effective small decorticator to handle the leaves from that small plantation. It is uneconomic to erect a big Corona machine there. He also informed you that the CSIR was developing a Mini Mark 2 , which is a small decorticator suitable for small plantations. They developed this small machine but there are still some technical problems attached to it. Then the XDC undertook to have the leaves cut by the local people and to transport the green leaf from Lujisweni plantation to Butterworth, but at the time they wanted to do it they had to use railway buses and they could not get the buses. You are aware of the position with these buses - they have breakdowns and so on - and , therefore, they could not move the leaf down to the factory. That is what happened with regard to this small plantation.
problem except the one of price and this is not in our hands. The fibre grows quite well and we know enough about the production of the fibre- growing it, the soils and the climate . There is nothing wrong there. It is a matter of economics and we don't deter-
381 .
driver was instructed to plough at a certain place and the engine was leaking oil. He was informed by a labourer who accompanied him that the oil was leaking from the tractor but the driver just carried on driving, although the department had given specific instructions that vehicles, including tractors, should be serviced weekly and the operator should take full responsibility for the handling and proper maintenance of that machine . This operator was subsequently discharged . According to the Report of the Auditor-General, R110 has already been recovered and the recovery of the balance of R748 is still being
mine the price. That is the problem . If there is a substantial price increase then we will recover this loss, but if there are no substantial increases we will not be able to . We must remember what has happened in regard to this fibre. Fibre production in this country started ten or twelve years ago when India proposed an embargo on South Africa with jute . We could not get bags, as you will remember, and therefore the South African Government embarked on this fibre production. There are white producers and there are also producers in the homelands because of its strategic value in those days. It is still of strategic value , and if fibre or any other commodity has strategic value then you must be prepared to take losses. (Rev Vika) In the circumstances would you not think it would be better for the XDC to take over the pro-
aean with by the department. We are in correspondence with the magistrate of Butterworth who has advised us that this ex-employee owns a vehicle which is still under hire-purchase ; he has five head of cattle, twelve sheep ; he has five children ranging in age from 2 to 14 years and this ex-employee has indicated that he is prepared to liquidate his liability. The department has referred this to the Law Adviser for a recommendation. The next amount (c) is R325 being the value of cattle stolen. ' These stock losses occurred at the Tsolo College of Agriculture and at holding farms. The amount of R105 , being the value of an Afrikander bull, was written off as irrecoverable . This bull was stolen. R30 being the value of three goats was recovered from a herdboy. Four head of cattle valued at R60 was recovered. R90 for six was written off as undetected head of cattle
ject themselves? - (Mr Swanepoel) We are trying to persuade them to do so . They claim they are in for losses and they are not prepared to suffer even more losses by taking over these plantations . The price determination is out of their hands and they can only make representations in this regard . PAGE 10 (Paragraph 23( 11 )) – Thefts and Irregularities.
19. (Chairman) Mr Swanepoel, please advise the committee whether these irregularities did not occur as the result of non-compliance with instructions relating to internal checks and controls. Please also inform the committee whether the outstanding cases have been finalized and recoveries effected. - (Mr
irrecoverable, and also three sheep valued at R39,50 - irrecoverable. The livestock was in a fenced camp and the gates were locked . The theft occurred during the night and the fences were cut. The theft of these cattle is beyond the control of this department as ail the necessary precautions were taken in accordance
Swanepoel) Mr Chairman, the department does everything in its power to prevent this type of thing. The department has over the years issued instructions and there are inspections from our head office. As a matter of fact, some of these thefts and irregularities were detected through inspections from our head office . You will always have this matter of the individual and his sense of responsibility. The first amount is R1 250 being an amount misappropriated by a clerk. A book inspection instituted at Mount Frere revealed that the clerk has misappropriated government moneys amounting to R1 250. This clerk was found guilty and sentenced to six months' imprisonment suspended for three years on condition that he is not convicted of another offence during the period of suspension. He was ordered to repay the total amount . The department issued instructions to foresters, as this had happened at a forestry station, that books should be checked weekly in order to prevent
with laid-down procedures. Unfortunately, Mr Chairman, stock thefts will always happen, whether on government or private tarms. It is impossible to prevent although you have instructions and take every precaution possible, it still happens. - (Mr Ndleleni) I think we are all aware that such losses constantly occur, but the great concern in this is that there are no arrests made after these thefts in most cases. (Mr Swanepoel) Mr Chairman , as soon as stock losses come to the notice of the department they are reported to the police and we try everything to detect these lost animals. Of course , it can be difficult. As soon as we report it to the police , it is in their hands and we cannot act further. That is all the department can do. --- (Mr Ndleleni) I think head office is merely advised of these losses at a later stage, but what about the man responsible on the spot? (Mr Swanepoel) As I reported here, moneys were recovered from the herdboy in one instance because he was negligent and he had to pay for the loss of animals under his supervision. As soon as a theft occurs and the man on the spot becomes aware of the fact that animals are lost , he must report it to the police immediately, otherwise if he does not do so he will be held responsible for the loss. Item (d) refers to stolen stores to the value of R184. One case refers to the loss of
any misappropriation of government moneys. The forester carried out the necessary inspections and more than once reported late entries made by the clerk, who in turn was accordingly reprimanded, and, therefore , the department was under the impression that all was running smoothly. In an endeavour to liquidate the said liabilities the salary and pension contributions of this clerk were taken over and the amount of R628 has been recovered . Steps are being taken to recover the balance. This man has been discharged and legal steps will be taken in an endeavour to recover the outstanding amount ; (b) is an amount of R858 for a damaged engine . This was caused by the overhauling of an engine of a tractor. The engine was damaged due to negligence of an employee . This
a number of rolls of barbed wire and drums of petrol valued at R155. We had a night-watchman at the stores and he was on duty from 7 pm to 5 am. The staff reported for duty at 8 a m and worked till 5 p m , so there was a lapse of two hours in the morning 382.
and two hours in the evening when there was no-one on duty at this particular store. On the other hand, this store was not far from the forest station and no thefts had occurred there previously, therefore, neither the storeman nor the night-watchman could be held responsible for the loss because of the lapse of these two hours in the morning and in the evening. After the theft occurred the night-watchman was instructed to be on duty from 5 pm till 8 a m to eliminate this period when no-one was on duty. In the second case two rolls of barbed wire and some droppers and poles were stolen after they had been delivered to a fencing contractor. Both cases were reported to the police but the results were fruitless. They could not detect the stolen items. - (Chairman) This question of internal checks and controls has been persistently asked from department to department and the Government is worried over this matter. (Mr Swanepoel) Mr Chairman, the instructions are there from head office for all the district offices. We
carry out checks by sending people from head office without informing the outside people, to make sure that these instructions are being adhered to. In general I am satisfied that the people comply with them but, of course, there are exceptions also . We are very strict on this matter of internal checks and control because in this department stores are very important. Millions of rands are involved in the stores depart-
used this tractor. He decided on his own to cart gravel and the tractor was involved in an accident and we - (Mr van Dyk) couldn't prove that he was negligent. — Was he licensed? - (Mr Swanepoel) Yes, he had a licence. - (Rev Vika) Could we ask Mr Swanepoel to give us an explanation on item (12) - Irregular use of Government transport. - (Mr Swanepoel) There are instructions with regard to the use of government transport, Mr Chairman. I issued a circular the day before yesterday. Two cases are involved here. In the first one, involving R3 444, the driver used an XG vehicle on an unauthorized trip . On the way, whilst avoiding a collision with beasts, the vehicle left the road and capsized. The vehicle was damaged beyond economical repair and was withdrawn from service. As the driver lost coverage he was held responsible for the reimbursement of R1 762 , being the financial loss suffered by the Government. To date an amount of R482 at the rate of R40 a month from his salary has been recovered, thus leaving a balance of R1 280. The second case concerns a driver who collided with a private vehicle on the road. A claim of R1 500 from the owner of the private vehicle was met in full by the Government and the XG vehicle has been repaired for the amount of R176. Since the driver lost coverage he was held responsible for the reimbursement of R1 681 , being the financial loss suffered by the Government . The driver has since been retired and an
ment. If you think in terms of all the machines, plant, fencing material, poles, windmills and so on, we must be very strict on that because a great deal of — (Chairman) Within this financial money is involved. year, Mr Swanepoel, what is the amount involved in thefts and irregularities? Have you worked out the total? It is quite impressive. - (Mr Swanepoel) It is, Mr Chairman, but we have recovered quite a lot. Of the R1,250 under (a) we have recovered R628, which is about 50%. Of the R858 under (b) we have recovered only R110; (c) R325 - R90 has been recovered; (d) R184 - we have recovered nothing. (a) and (b), of course, are still under consideration . It is only these thefts which did not realise very much. They are irrecoverable at this stage. - (Rev Vika) I take it you are still hoping to recover more. (Mr Swanepoel) Yes, there is a chance to recover the balances of R1 500 in cases (a) and (b) the damaged tractor and the misappropriation of government
amount of R1 025 was recovered from his salary and pension contributions. In order to liquidate his liabilities he has applied for re-employment as a temporary semi-skilled labourer in the department. The matter has been referred to the Commission for a recommendation , so if this man is appointed the chances are that we shall recover the balance. (Chairman) Mr Swanepoel, while on the question of the use of government vehicles, I am sure both you and the department will appreciate some remarks on courtesy and so on in regard to the use of the road by departmental drivers . Most of your vehicles are heavy ones and it sickens one to see and hear a huge 14tonner engine being raced at about 100 km an hour whilst the vehicle is crawling downhill at about 5 to 10 km on the road. At once one gains the impression that the driver had not been properly educated in the - (Mr use of gears and the relationship of gears .....Chairman. Swanepoel) I fully agree with that, Mr (Chairman) There is no need for a big vehicle to be raced in low gear. The courtesy of the drivers in general is not all it should be when one meets them on the road. They look as though they are aware that they are driving these heavy vehicles and if an ordinary small car is travelling towards them they know that if the driver does not give way then it is his ruin if they collide. They are really discourteous
moneys. PAGE 11 (Paragraph 23(13)) -Accidents - Tractors 20. (Chairman) Mr Swanepoel, kindly advise the committee whether the amount of R137 has been recovered. - (Mr Swanepoel) In one case, Mr Chairman, the amount of R51 has been written off as an irrecoverable loss as a result of an accident to a tractor. In the other case the driver was not in pos-
and the public is beginning to feel this. - (Mr Swanepoel) Mr Chairman, I am in full agreement with that. The drivers should not drive like that and should not handle expensive vehicles in such a manner. Of course, we reprimand our drivers and we try to teach them to use these vehicles with care, because they are ex pensive, and to be courteous on the road, because a man in a big vehicle is always safe. It is the man in the car who has the problem. I am in full agreement.
session of a valid driver's licence . The right front axle broke, he lost control of the machine, fell off and the tractor ran downhill . The repairs amounted to R86. In an attempt to recover the amount, R84 was withheld from his salary and pension contributions, leaving a balance of R1,82, so R84 has been recovered from this amount of R137 . - (Rev Vika) Could you explain why you failed to recover the R51? (Mr Swanepoel) Mr Chairman, we could not prove negligence on the part of the driver who
PAGE 11 - Appropriation Account
383.
there is only one ."if"
21. (Chairman) Mr Swanepoel, in the explanations of the causes of variation between Expenditure and Vote the following remarks appear: (i) Subhead EExcess due to unforeseen Workmen's Compensation claims. Kindly elucidate. - (Mr Swanepoel) Mr Chairman, Workmen's Compensation is the biggest item under Subhead E Miscellaneous Expenses and to estimate accurately for an item such as Workmen's Compensation is impossible , because if an employee is injured on duty he fills in a form, it goes to the Workmen's Compensation Commissioner in Pretoria and the Commissioner decides the amount
if the demand is there for
the deboned meat. As far as the marketing of this meat is concerned , you must buy and you must sell and the price you get for it will determine the profits, but from reports received on this financial year I am satisfied there will be a profit, even if it is small. PAGE 20 (Paragraph 26(3)(a)) -— Financial Assistance to Farmers individually 23. (Chairman) Mr Swanepoel, during the previous session your predecessor informed the committee that Treasury has been approached for approval to write off the outstanding amount. Kindly advise the committee whether approval was granted and, if not, what the present position is . - (Mr Swanepoel) No, Mr Chairman, Treasury has not replied yet , but for the period November 1974 to February 1976 an amount of R2 787 has been recovered from these
of money to be paid out to such injured employee or official depending of course on the degree of injury. The department must then pay it out . Now, in this department, if you think in terms of the forestry people alone, quite a percentage are injured on duty each year and we must pay these claims . An assessment is made by the Workmen's Compensation Commissioner and we have no say in it . We don't know what the amount will be. Sometimes it takes a year, sometimes three years, because they must investigate the case and obtain a doctor's report, but eventually we get the claims and they must be paid out . We provide for a certain amount on the estimates and some
people. I think the problem in collecting these moneys has been reported to you during previous sessions by my predecessors . - (Chairman) What happens when Treasury does not reply? - (Mr Swanepoel) We just have to wait, Mr Chairman .
years we are lucky and spend less; in other years we spend more. -- (Chairman) In regard to Subhead J(b) Excess due to determination of various contracts - would you kindly furnish reasons, Mr Swanepoel. (Mr Swanepoel) Mr Chairman, I have already reported on this on a previous occasion . This relates to five domestic water supply contracts. In the one case the contractor could not cope with the work and the Department had to appoint another man ; in the other four contracts the contractor went into liquidation and the department had to build up a new organization and complete the work.
PAGE 20 (Paragraph 26 (3) (b) (i)) - Crop Loans 24. (Chairman) Mr Swanepoel , it is noted that the total outstandings increased by R65 896 in comparison with the previous year. Kindly advise the committee whether the steps envisaged by your predecessor in his evidence during the previous session had any positive effects and , if not, what further steps are contemplated. - (Mr Swanepoel) Mr Chairman, the steps envisaged during the previous session to improve the situation regarding the outstanding loans of the co-ops were taken towards the end of the 1974/75 financial year. The people had fertilizers, etc, on order and we simply could not cut things off abruptly, therefore, the steps were implemented towards the end of the 1974/75 financial year. The results of these steps can, therefore, only be properly evaluated in the 1975/76 financial year. It is, however, heartening to note that generally speaking there was an improvement in these outstanding loans . The increase of R60 000 mentioned here is due to the following: In the first place R41 000 was granted to four newly formed Co-operatives and these are repayable during 1975/76 financial year. The Qamata Co-operative loans increased by about R5 000 but they have erected sheds and stores from their own funds worth R14 000 so there is an improvement there. Then the Gcaleka Co-operative had an increase in their loan of about R7 000 due to the fact that the
PAGE 20 (Paragraph 26(2)) - Transkei Meat Industry
22. (Chairman) Mr Swanepoel, it is observed that the scheme has again suffered a substantial loss . What are, in your opinion, the prospects of this scheme ever becoming profitable? -- (Mr Swanepoel) Mr Chairman, in spite of the fact that the Transkei Meat Industry again suffered a nett loss for the financial year ended 1974, there was a substantial improvement in this concern . These losses can mainly be attributed to a redwater epidemic experienced during 1974. Members will recall that during 1974, high losses occurred all over the Transkei in regard to livestock as a result of redwater, because of the heavy rains. On account of the oil crisis at the time we could not get medicines to treat the animals , because some of these medicines are produced from byproducts of the oil industry . The losses ddue to redwater and thefts amounted to R92 000 and 542 cattle were involved in this. That is exceptionally high and the really severe losses occurred over a period of about two months. The cattle were taken away from the holding farm and a special pen was erected at Luchaba to keep the animals overnight . If the TMI had not suffered this loss of R92 000 there would have been a profit. I am quite satisfied that there will be a profit this year for this concern . We must remember that
fertilizer purchases increased from R18 000 R35 000 , so that there is merit in extending the loan for this Co-op . It must also be taken into account that these co-ops are expanding. During 1974/75 they had a turnover of R326 000 as compared with R237 000 during 1973/74 . In the meantime the membership has also increased from 16 400 to 19 600; so in general, Mr Chairman , although it will take some time for these co-operatives to repay these loans, I think there has been positive progress. I would also like to mention that the management of these co-ops has improved as well . They appoint more 384.
valley and you will get those lands infested. Those are my views. However, I will not say I don't recommend it . We must once again look at the natural grazing of the Transkei and see what we can do to improve the carrying capacity of the Transkei. The possibilities are there and perhaps we can use other grasses, such as cocksfoot, to reinforce the veld.
competent secretaries to do the bookkeeping and (Chairman) What that is also very important . would you say about the Fingo Co-op in Nqamakwe? - (Mr Swanepoel) The Fingo Co-op is in liquidation, of course. It went into liquidation two years ago. They could not manage their co-op . - (Mr Ndleleni) What was the amount involved? - (Mr Swanepoel) It was quite a lot of money. It is in the report on page 29 - the amount was R107 000.- (Rev Vika) What does it mean if they are liquidated? - (Mr
Another possibility, but an expensive one, is to fertilize the veld , but my contention is that we can look at this on a small scale and on an experimental basis. Advice is cheap, but to do something is quite different. In summing up I would say there is the possibility of veld reinforcement in the Transkei, but I will not commit myself and say I prefer this one to the other one. We must look at it and in doing this we must be very careful to limit the stocking rate to the carrying capacity , otherwise we are landing ourselves in trouble. It is no use if you increase the carrying capacity by 50% and your stocking rate goes up by 100%.
Swanepoel) It means the creditors will be paid out on a pro rata basis according to their claims . - (Rev Vika) What happens to the sum of R107 000 ? - (Mr - (Chairman) Doesn't this Swanepoel) It has gone. bring us back to the question of internal checks and controls? - (Mr Swanepoel) Mr Chairman, these co-ops are autonomous bodies in the first place . The department guides them and helps them to manage their own affairs, but they are responsible for these moneys. They must decide and they must take full responsibility. As I have mentioned , there is an improvement in the appointment of more competent secretaries and they are becoming more competent in the managing of their own affairs, but I think this
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE : MINUTES OF EVIDENCE
R107 000 you must relate to history. What has happened in the past in regard to these co-ops is that they were given loans and they said they were under the impression that these were grants and so on. I 1 think my predecessor gave quite a full report on previous occasions. This is a young movement in the Transkei, Mr Chairman, and the same thing happened in the Republic, for instance, with their agricultural co-ops. In the early years they had to fight their battles. Some went down the drain and others suc-
Tuesday, 13 April 1976 ( at 9 am )
Present:
Messrs SW Mbanga (Chairman), R Madikizela, Chief D D P Ndamase , G T Vika, Mr D J Ndleleni. Messrs D C T van Dyk, Assistant Chief Auditor (accompanied by M L Fourie, JT Lunika and N G Macingwane), P Jager, Secretary for Roads and Works (accompanied by L D van Zyl and J D Bam ) , T F Ntlabati, Secretary to the Legislative Assembly, in attendance.
ceeded. This will happen, too, in the Transkei. We can expect that. If we don't expect it then we are being unrealistic. However, looking at past years and at this year's results where the people are on a cash basis and if they don't pay their debts then they are not entitled to any more loans, I think we are on the
VOTE 6 : ROADS AND WORKS - PAGE 13 (Paragraph 11 (1 )) - Page 4 : Standard Stock Stores and Equipment
way to progress with these co-operatives, and I think they will render a service to the Transkei . - (Chairman) Under general, Mr Swanepoel, last time we met I asked your predecessor about the substitution of Kikuyu grass in our grazing camps and he said if once you start tampering with Nature's provisions then you are in trouble . Two weeks back we had a gentleman from the Alexandria Farmers Co-op addressing our Advisory Council on Education and he strongly recommended the growth of Kikuyu grass round here. This, to me, is conflicting. What is your opinion about it? - (Mr Swanepoel) Mr Chairman , we have this practice of what they call "veld reinforcement". That is a general practice in Natal for instance as well as the higher rainfall areas. They sow seed in the veld from aircraft. If we think in terms of the veld alone, I would say that if you want to sow Kikuyu or plant it, then I wouldn't argue. I have my personal preference, however, and I don't even like Kikuyu on my lawns. I regard it as a weed. If you sow it and it gets into your lands then you are in trouble. You will not be able to plant a crop. Those are my fears. Eventually in your land utilization , you will find this sort of thing. The most fertile soils are in the valleys and those are the soils to be cultivated very intensively . If you sow Kikuyu it will naturally go down the
385.
25. (Chairman) Mr Jager, could you please inform the committee of the reasons for the irregular excess. (Mr Jager) Mr Chairman, that was the year when there was an acute shortage of steel, especially corrugated iron, which we could not get. Orders placed months and months previously were not delivered. Our works were falling behind and we had to do something drastic to alleviate the position . On inquiries we could not get the normal lengths of 1,8m and 3,6m but only 12,3m lengths so we had to place these orders although it was already towards the end ofthe financial year, but we had to have this material immediately, otherwise our gangs would have been idle . That was the reason, therefore. It cost the stores R10 000 but we had to place these orders. Then old orders which had been placed months before were suddenly delivered , so the result was that we were over-capitalized . At the same time the average cost of four items corrugate iron, reinforcing steel, cement and nails - went up by an average of 50% and as we were only allowed R65 000 worth in our capital stocks we could never hope to be able to supply all the material required . We have already applied to Treasury to increase the amount of the
capital stock from
an
amount of R65 000
to
R100 000. That is the explanation for the so-called irregularity. PAGE 13
(Paragraph 24(3)(b)) - Accidents
26. (Chairman) Mr Jager, kindly inform the committee: (a) What measures are in force or contemplated to curb and reduce the large annual loss as a result of accidents; and (b) what control is exercised over the use of government motor transport. - (Mr Jager) Mr Chairman, generally accidents happen as a result of the following causes: Irresponsible driving; speeding; driving under the influence of liquor or narcotic drugs . The measure to curb accidents and to reduce accidents is mainly law enforcement by the traffic force. Now, by the end of March our traffic force was down to 16 members. We have 21 trained by the Transvaal Provincial Administration - you must have seen the announcement in the papers recently - and 20 will complete their training in Cape Town by the Cape Provincial Traffic Force Administration which, by the end of May, this will bring the strength of the force up to 57 - that is, people on the road where we only have 16 at present. We have applied to the Public Service Commission to authorize us to increase the force to 97 by 26 October, 1976, so from the beginning of May there should be a marked improvement because we shall have law enforcement officers on the road which we haven't had before. We could never cope before but then we hope to reduce this terrible rate of accidents of which we are very conscious. In addition to criminal action being taken against drivers, officials who drive vehicles, even if they are not found guilty by a court, are fined so heavily today that that should also be a deterrent . It is, therefore, mainly a question of law enforcement to try to reduce these accidents. In regard to what control is exercised I must first explain that each department has a transport control officer who is responsible for the transport in his own department. We in Roads and Works are not responsible for that but are only responsible in our own department. However, because we are so conscious of transport I convened a meeting of all transport control officers of all departments and from this meeting certain suggestions have been made which were submitted to the Chief Minister and are now being studied. In the meantime a directive has been given to my department which I shall read out to you: "In the interim instructions have been issued to all officials of this department to the effect that government vehicles must be parked at an approved place by 7 pm on weekdays, where they must remain overnight, and over weekends. Authority must be obtained in all cases where it is necessary for a vehicle to be on the road after 7 p m and at weekends. Where authorized passengers are conveyed their names have to be entered in the logbook prior to commencement of the trip. Particulars of all trips must as far as possible be entered in the logbook prior to commencement of the trip. Arrangements are being made for the appointment of five inspectors who will be in plain clothes. Senior officials of this department have also been asked to assist in this respect, and to stop all vehicles allocated to this department to
check whether the instructions are being complied with. In so far as vehicles allocated to other departments are concerned , senior officials of this department have been requested to report all suspicious cases for investigation." With regard to the appointment of the five inspectors we have made representations to the Public Service Commission, the recommendations have been accepted but so far Treasury approval has not been received. However, each department has received a directive, issued directly by the Chief Minister's office , so this will be in force. - (Chairman) Mr Jager, I had an experience only last Sunday of this unauthorized use of government cars when I was coming from a church service at about 1 o'clock. There was an XG car that was zigzagging in the Mission Location near Butterworth. I happened to be driving behind and because they stopped when they met a friend who was driving in the opposite direction I came upon them and stopped behind this particular car. I was actually held up there for more than three minutes while they were talking, when I drew their attention to the fact that I was waiting to get past . The registration number of the car was XG 716. This is one proof of the general complaint that our official cars are being used for unauthorized purposes. (Mr Jager) I had the same experience on 28 March when I travelled to Port Elizabeth and about twelve miles out of town I found an XG car in front of me with three gentlemen in it. I took the number. When I returned to Umtata after three days I made inquiries and ascertained it was a police car on duty. However, this is the information we want and if you gentlemen see anything like this, please report it. - (Chief Ndamase) May I know if you have any vehicles fitted with tachographs? (Mr Jager) Not the passenger vehicles. It costs over R200 to fit and we haven't the money at present to do it. The tachograph is a very useful instrument and even if it is tampered with you can see it immediately and we send the chart away to a specialist in East London to be analysed. PAGE 14 (Paragraph 24(4)(a)) - Thefts and Irregularities. 27. (Chairman) Mr Jager, please inform the committee of the circumstances under which these thefts occurred and whether all the cases have been finalized. Please also advise the committee whether any steps were taken to improve the existing measures for the prevention oftheft or unauthorized use of government vehicles. (Mr Jager) Mr Chairman, I will first reply to whether all the cases have been finalized . All but one case (Theft No 11 /74-75-X9937) have been finalized as follows:Loss (R55,96 ) amount written off as irrecoverable . Accident damage (R18,00). Deductions of R6 from each officer concerned were made by the Department of Agriculture and Forestry. Stolen vehicle (R1200). Both officers were criminally charged . Arrangements are being made to recover the loss from the officers concerned. Damage (R67,00) recovered in full. Damage (R48,00) recovered in full from officer's
salary . Damage (R35,00) recovered in full from officer's salary . 386.
Damage (R11,42) recovered in full. Damage (R55,00) recovered in full by deductions from salary of officer concerned . Theft of spare wheel (R63,84) written off as irrecoverable owing to insufficient evidence of negligence on the part ofthe officer concerned . Loss (R232,01 ). A total of R111,53 was written off as irrecoverable. The balance of R120,48 was recovered from the salary and subsistence due to the responsible officer, who is at present serving a further term of imprisonment in Natal. Mr Chairman, in regard to the steps being taken to improve existing measures the reply is exactly the same as that for the previous question. PAGE 14 - Appropriation Account
28. (Chairman) Mr Jager, in the explanations of the causes of variation between Expenditure and Vote the following remarks appear: (i) Subhead E- Excess due mainly to unforeseen Workmen's Compensation claims. Kindly elaborate. (Mr Jager) Mr Chairman, during the year in question 125 Workmen's Compensation claims were finalized of which 15 were fatal accidents . This number is far in excess of the number which could reasonably have been expected. In other words, we underestimated the number. An amount of R24 675,43 was paid out as compensation arising from the fatal accidents alone and this accounts for the bulk of the excess expenditure. We could not estimate for so many deaths, in other words. - (Chairman) Under Subhead P Saving due to late decision on the type and number of houses to be built in the Maluti Township - kindly inform the committee whether building operations have since commenced and what progress has been made. - (Mr Jager) Mr Chairman , last year we had the same question and it was a question of which department was responsible. The type of house was eventually decided upon after the department had explored various methods of reducing building costs. Tenders were called for and the lowest tender was still considered to be too high. Negotiations were entered into with the lowest tenderers regarding the modification of specifications and thus arriving at a more reasonable cost, and, Mr Chairman, that reasonable cost was R7 000, per house while in Butterworth it cost R2 500. The tenders were then submitted to the Tender Board for approval but owing to the prevailing financial climate the tenders were not accepted and the project can only be considered when funds become available. We had to re-
you pick on very expensive metal and so the tenderer's estimate -was not at all stupid . The figure is reasonable within the expected framework of the expenses involved, but what should be brought to the attention of the committee is the fact that the specifications include very expensive materials. That seems to be the main cause of the high tenders. - (Mr Jager) Mr Chairman, when tenders were called and found too high I personally went through the specifications and when you refer to the special metal used for the windows I should explain that it is ordinary steel but it was double galvanized . I cut that out. Matatiele being a snowbound area and snow being a great cause of rust, the roofing material was also double dipped galvanized iron. We cut that out as well for normal iron, so all the expensive items were cut out and then we negotiated with the lowest tenderer on the reduced specification . We are very much aware of what you said but even after that the price was roughly R7 000 per house. (Mr Ndleleni) Could these plans be made available to the committee for scrutiny? (Mr Jager) Yes , if you would like to see them. (Mr Ndleleni) As far as I am concerned even the wood is of the type that the wholesalers could not supply. They have to order most of the things there. I am not trying to involve the local wholesalers or tenderers. - (Mr Jager) No, Mr Chairman, all the expensive material was cut out. I must agree that in the original specification all that was included. (Rev Vika) How big are these houses? - (Mr Jager) I should say about 700 square feet, although I am guessing now. - (Mr Madikizela) How many rooms? (Mr Jager) There are four rooms and a kitchen plus bath and toilet facilities. As I said, they are elaborate houses . - (Mr Ndleleni) The people are very discouraged about the time wasted so far as this whole plan is concerned because they are in a hurry to get into the township. They don't believe the stories we tell them about the efforts being made. They appreciated the housing scheme which was also not discussed with them, but still they appreciated it . Now the question is: How long must they wait? (Mr Jager) I think it is the idea of the Chief Minister that these people should now build the houses themselves. ― (Mr Ndleleni) But can't the Government just find out how many can afford to build their own buildings and how many would prefer to have the buildings put up by the Government? As far as I am concerned there are so many people who want these houses. I have had a few meetings where I was taken to task by a number of applicants from Cape Town and Johannesburg and all over who are willing to come and are keen to start. - (Mr Jager) We also have plans available where we don't build the whole house immediately , but just two rooms, a kitchen , bathroom and toilet . However, the plans are there so that at a later stage when a man has ownership he can build on extra room with a loan, perhaps, from the Transkei Development Corporation. That is the general idea, so it is quite
duce our estimates drastically, so the houses have still not been built. - (Mr Ndleleni) May I ask what is the reason for this high price? Is it the building costs or the material or what? - (Mr Jager) Mr Chairman, it is the plan and size of the house which is responsible for the high price . Naturally, also, it is the remoteness of Maluti area. Building costs are higher there because the transport charges are higher. - (Mr Ndleleni) Without disputing what Mr Jager has said, we are under the impression that it is due mainly to the very expensive material involved in planning for the township. To give one example, the steel window frames included in your plans. It seems that
possible that we will never build to this elaborate plan but only the unit plan. After that there are several plans that can be built round the same central core and that is probably what will be done even- . tually when funds become available. - (Mr Ndleleni) 387.
There is another thorny question from the local people in connection with business sites . When you buy a trading site or residential site , isn't that taken as being your own property? If you want to buy a business site you are going to comply with government regulations as far as that business is concerned , but now there is queer question which people do
the fee for the Q.S. is because they work on a percentage basis. That is why I had to go through the bills. personally and whittle them down to normal .
not really understand . You pay cash for the whole site and you are awaiting approval which never comes. Instead, when you make inquiries you are asked whether you have the capital to put up a decent building - whether you have , say, R2 000 at least. If you say you have R2 000 the reply is that you cannot start a business in town with only R2 000 capital. All such questions embarrass people because they don't know whether the purchase there is genuine. You get title deeds and if you have title deeds you can do exactly as you like . If you haven't the money for that particular business you can negotiate with whoever is prepared to take over on a lease . (Mr Jager) The subject we are discussing now is not my department, Mr Chairman. It is for the Department of the Interior. We are not interested in how much money you have . Once you have bought the site it is out of our hands. It must be for the Department of the Interior, who have to issue the licence.
Wednesday, 14 April 1976 (at 9 am )
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE
MINUTES
OF EVIDENCE
Present:
VOTE 7
Messrs SW Mbanga (Chairman) , R Madikizela, D J Ndleleni, Rev. G T Vika and Chief D DP Ndamase. Messrs D C T van Dyk, Assistant Chief Auditor (accompanied by M L Fourie, JT Lunika and N G Macingwane), Dr. D D Arbuckle , Secretary for Health , and TF Ntlabati, Secretary to the Legislative Assembly, in attendance . HEALTH
(Paragraph 9(3)) PAGE 3
29. (Chairman) Dr Arbuckle , please advise the committee why an amount of R4 641 in respect of hospital fees had to be written off. — (Dr. Arbuckle) Yes, Mr Chairman, hospital fees frequently have to be written off. The fees payable by a patient in a State hospital are normally extremely small, amounting to an average of R1 per admission . These patients are admitted normally whilst they are extremely ill and , although it would be acceptable from a financial point of view to say "no admission without paying", from a humanitarian point of view one is clearly unable to do this. One, therefore , admits the patient
(Chairman) Who represents the Department of the Interior and the Department of Roads and Works locally? (Mr Jager) The magistrate , Mr Chairman, and I suggest if there is this trouble and it is the magistrate who asks these questions, why not see the Secretary for the Interior and find out why these questions are being asked? (Chief Ndamase ) Is it still the intention ofthe depart. ment to carry on this planning and development of townships in villages which are not growth points? Is Matatiele a growth point? I thought Maluti township was established only because the Transkeian villages were zoned and Matatiele could not be zoned and so the Maluti project had to be carried out for the Africans. Is it still necessary that Maluti be planned? (Mr Jager) Again, Mr Chairman, this is not a question for my department . At the last meeting I had to explain that our clients are the Department of the Interior. We are the Public Works Department . If the necessity is there we will be informed that this is what is required . (Mr Ndleleni) Is there still hope that the houses will be put up by the Government? (Mr Jager) Definitely, but not this year. (Mr Madikizela) Mr Jager, you said you had changed
whilst he has no money and also he is discharged before he has paid his R1 , merely because the bed is of more importance to the Department of Health than the R1 . The patient is then permitted to go before he has paid and the department is then left with the responsibility of collecting that money . Frequently we send out accounts and accounts rendered for many months without the account being paid . In some instances we also submit these outstanding accounts to the magistrate in question . The magistrate's office attempts to assist the department in the collection of these fees but, the exercise is more expensive that the R1 which is outstanding. It is then in the State's interest to write off the money, rather
the expensive material for cheaper material. Can you still guarantee durability? - (Mr Jager) We have changed it to normal materials but, of course, ifyou have double-dipped galvanized iron on your roof it will last very much longer, that is, in a snowbound area, because snow has a lot of ozone in it and that attacks the steel and can damage it . (Mr Ndleleni) The white town of Matatiele is being developed very fast at the moment and they are putting in modern buildings but they never change and use other expensive materials for the sake of snow. They use cheap material as they do anywhere else, unlike Natal where they are bound to consider weather conditons. (Mr Jager) The bills of quantities and specifications were made out for the more expensive materials and , the more expensive the materials used are the bigger 388.
than spend a greater sum in collecting the outstanding amount in each instance . That is why, with all State hospitals, a certain amount of money has to be written off. (Rev Vika) Through you , Mr Chairman, can we ask if it is necessary to charge this amount? - (Dr Arbuckle ) I believe , Mr Chairman, it is a bad principle to give a free service . It is human nature that the excellence of an item or a service which you receive is proportional to the sum paid for it . Furthermore, I believe that if not paid for abuse of the service may result . We wish to reduce State expenditure on health services. It is every department's object to reduce expenditure without limiting the service, but to do this is difficult . If one gave a totally free service one would have patients presenting with insignificant complaints such as a superficial scratch. Now, it is not the intention of the Department of
very pleased to see any accounts which have been
Health to provide that type of service . Our priority is to attend to illness in the true sense of the word . I think
rendered by a hospital that do come to the figure of R10 a day because this is definitely contrary to the (Mr Ndleleni) That was an example which I rate . am comparing with my present income. It happened about five years ago that I was charged this amount of R6 a day and R4 customary fee for admittance . I remember that amount very well because I tried to argue and to say that I was paying this R1 every year and therefore why should I pay this big account . While I was still trying to find out from the authorities a messenger came from East London and he handed me a summons from the State . I had to pay. (Dr Arbuckle) Mr Chairman, I cannot answer for this because the period mentioned was during the time when that hospital was under the Cape Provincial Administration. It had not yet been taken over by the Republican Government as a State hospital. The Transkeian Government took over that hospital as a Transkeian State hospital on 1 April 1973. That is the Mount Fletcher hospital . - (Mr
we must protect the limited service which we do have for maximum utilization by those people suffering from conditions which truly do require medical assistance. In summary, we must protect the service from abuse by the public. I think the R1 , or 50c admission fee or outpatient fee does do this. - (Mr Ndleleni) Is this R1 fee payable by patients for admission in addition to the levy that is paid by every taxpayer? - (Dr Arbuckle) Yes, Mr Chairman , it is extra. The British National Health Services system is such that they are taxed and then hospitalization etc is free. This has led to tremendous discontentment in Great Britain about the standard of the service which is, in fact, excellent . I would hesitate to say that because a taxpayer has paid his levy with regard to health services he is, therefore , entitled to free treatment. It has been proved that payment per item of service is the fairest way. In other words , the person using the service more pays more towards that service. Although the amount is extremely small it provides for all medical treatment , X-rays, investigations and perhaps three months in hospital - in fact, you can even have a heart transplant for R1 in the Transkei! I think it is reasonably good value. - (Mr Ndleleni) Aren't other services covered by doctors' fees as far as X-rays, operations and so on are concerned? - (Dr Arbuckle) Mr Chairman , once a patient is admitted to the hospital or is in the Outpatients' Department the fee paid, which is R1 or 50c, covers absolutely every aspect of treatment or investigation which he suffers or enjoys in hospital, including operations,theatre fees, etc. I am referring now to indigent patients, but it is known that 99% of the patients presenting in hospital in the Transkei are regarded as indigent . - (Mr Ndleleni) On the same question, Mr Chairman, you say 99% of our patients are indigent. I am wondering, because all civil servants, all businessmen and everybody who earns an income is charged according to his income, apart from this R1. - (Dr Arbuckle) Mr Chairman, this is quite right. Most of our civil servants, like ourselves go to a private doctor who looks after them. In the event of our going into hospital then we are charged , but the amount which is charged is extremely low. I cannot remember the rate offhand but it is in the region of R1 per day, all inclusive . We don't charge per item of service performed in the hospital . We don't charge separately for operations, or for X-rays . It is inclusive in the daily tariff throughout the Republic with regard to hospitalization . — (Mr Ndleleni) I must be under the wrong impression , Mr Chairman, that we are not charged R1 per day. It may differ in different hospitals. For instance , take the Tayler Bequest Hospital in Maluti region. There are two hospitals in that region and one is a branch of the other. I would personally be charged about R10 a day according to my income, and there is a fee of R6 which they call an admittance fee. - (Dr Arbuckle) I think we are talking of an income-earning bracket which is the exception rather than the rule in the Transkei. I agree that hospital fees certainly go up with income , but these will not reach R10 a day. They will be considerably less than that . I would be
Ndleleni) I am talking about the Matatiele branch. (Dr Arbuckle) The Matatiele branch is not in the Transkei, so it is not under my jurisdiction. It is still under the Cape Province. -- (Mr Ndleleni) I think I am deviating from the main matter at stake now, bul the Tayler Bequest Hospital was bequeathed to Africans by the Tayler Estate , so we argue and ask why we are divorced of all our rights in Matatielc and told to go to Mount Fletcher to get cheaper services. We are in Matatiele and this is also our hospital. - (Dr Arbuckle) Mr Chairman, this matter is beyond the powers of this committee , if I may be so bold to say. This is the sessional committee discussing finance, but we are now discussing Group Area Matters . PAGE 17 : Appropriation Account 30. (Chairman) Dr Arbuckle , in the explanation of the causes of variation between Expenditure and Vote the following remarks appear: (i) Subhead A Saving due to difficulty experienced in filling vacant posts . Please inform the committee what steps, if any, have been taken to attract suitable candidates. (Dr Arbuckle) Mr Chairman, it is well known that the Transkei, like all developing countries and most other countries in the world , are experiencing a marked shortage of trained professional manpower. The Transkei, as I have said, is no exception. This is the reason for the vacancies in the professional grades in the department. The steps which have been taken to overcome this deficiency have been a drive both here , in the Republic and overseas with regard to advertisement of vacant posts, and also active recruitment . Recruitment takes the form of various tours round the Republic and whilst we are on holiday overseas. I have recently come back from overseas and spent most of my leave on a recruitment campaign overseas. Some of our other doctors who were previously mission doctors and are now State hospital doctors have also done this. I can assure the committee that we are having great success and I would say we will draw in doctors, particularly from Britain, to the Transkei. I have a list at the moment of 17 intending doctors who will be joining us from the United Kingdom and elsewhere . This is a most attractive
389.
Chairman, the paper which was published by Dr Hofmeyr was not conducted under statistical control
to ensure that patients do continue with their treatment. Further to this, we are employing the services of SANTA. SANTA is starting TATBA, (Transkei Anti-tuberculosis Associations) which are remarkably good self-help organizations. Each community has a man or woman who is responsible for ensuring that every baby born in that district is immunized against tuberculosis as soon after birth as possible. He is also to ensure that every person who has tuberculosis and is on treatment is taking his treatment. This has been started from the south of the Transkei and is now moving up through towards the north of the Transkei. In those areas which are covered by SANTA the system is working extremely well and I believe that once again we are placing the emphasis on the community. This is a healthy situation for a developing State. The communities must develop self-awareness and work for their own betterment. I believe that this is correct, unless we are looking for a total welfare state which I do not believe any developing country can afford. - (Mr Ndleleni) Mr Chairman, where there is a case of a kraal being stocked with all the TB drugs through lack of other facilities, I believe this is supervised by the nursing staff but patients going there to collect these tablets collect from the layman. He has no records and I
and , therefore, all the results are unacceptable. Now, with regard to the subhead concerned - Savings due to fewer patients treated than anticipated - this is a little misleading . Members will remember that I stated last year that venereal diseases will be removed from the subheads under our Appropriation Account. This refers to the current financial year in which we are. It has been removed , but of course it was too late last year for its removal as the estimates were submitted shortly after my arrival in the Transkei. The reason I gave at the time, and the reason which still obtains, is that venereal disease is a disease like any other and is treated by means of our various medical facilities in hospital or in the clinic, as the case may be. It is not differentiated because I do not believe it is in the public interest to differentiate this. I think we must get the community to realise that it is a common disease and that there is no shame in presenting oneself for diagnosis and early treatment . Members will see next year that item M does not appear. Perhaps I can make it clearer by saying that many cases of venereal disease are treated under the other subheads providing for medical services in State hospitals and mission hospitals. - (Chairman) In other words, Dr Arbuckle, you are satisfied that this type of disease is under control? - (Dr Arbuckle) Definitely, Mr Chairman. - (Chairman) Gentlemen, we have come to the end of the whole session as far as we are concerned , and I would in earnest say thank
have actually been there and watched the situation. Someone comes along and just collects the tablets and some patients will even say: Do you want more tablets? You can take my card and get some because I don't need them. This is actually happening in my area because we have no such facilities as you are now explaining, which are very good . -— (Dr. Arbuckle) Mr Chairman, I would like to have an opportunity of
you to everybody that these meetings have been the success they were. It is, of course, foolish for any patient to exchange cards. However, on the other hand, it is very fortu-
answering this question . First of all, with regard to your area the TATBA bar system has not reached
nate the 90% of our TB patients in the Transkei receive the same treatment .
there yet. We are working our way up towards the Maluti. The Maluti area is at the other end of the Transkei and it will be a little time before we reach you. With regard to the distribution of TB medicines
GENERAL
by a lay person, this under the circumstances is owing
(Rev Vika) Mr Chairman, I observed under item M -
to shortage of staff. The treatment record is on the patient's card. The patient's card shows what treat-
Saving due to fewer patients treated than anticipated - I seem to recollect that through the Press we received a report of a paper by Dr Hofmeyr stating there is a tremendous increase of venereal disease in
ment he should be taking. On the other hand, if two patients are foolish enough to exchange cards I think the onus must rest with the individuals and not with
the Transkei and Ciskei. I would like to know why we have a saving on this item. - (Dr Arbuckle) Mr
either the department or the community as a whole.
390.
TRANSKEIAN LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS AT THE SESSION- 1976 The sixth session of the third Transkeian Legislative Assembly opened in the Assembly Hall at 10 am on
MONDAY, 26 JULY 1976
Acting Chieftainess Ma-Montoeli Lehana Chief Matheusen Sizwe Zibi Mr Harold Humphrey Zibi Mr Kolisile Timothy Mbobo MOUNT FRERE :
Mr Colley Dabula Mr Mdunyelwa Nicholas Makaula
Prayers were read.
MQANDULI : The Government Notice convoking the Assembly was read. The roll was called. MEMBERS
OF THE TRANSKEIAN LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY IN ATTENDANCE :
Acting Chief Sicitana Candulwandle Dalasile Chief Dilikile Stanford Bacela Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Acting Chief David Mrazuli Mr Ntabayitshi Peter Nkosiyane Mr Knowledge Mzimkulu Guzana
BIZANA :
NGQELENI:
Chief Mbungwa Langasiki Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Sydney Malungelo Baleni Chief Daliwonga Mlindazwe Mr Maci Enoch Dyarvane Mr Mkatali Walter Madikizela
Chief Sandi Ferguson Gwadiso Chief Derrick Zamdola Ndamase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr Ramsay Madikizela NQAMAKWE :
BUTTERWORTH : Chief Zandisile Havington Zulu Mr Silas Walker Mbanga
Chief Mtutuzeli Hardington Ngcongolo Mr Eleven Mbele Dekeda
PORT ST JOHN'S : ELLIOTDALE : Mr Bokololo Phillip Vapi
Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala QUMBU:
ENGCOBO : Chief Mzingisi Welsh Matiwane Chief Isaac Matiwane Chieftainess Angelinah Moshesh Chieftainess Sandy Majeke Mr Gotgot Nathan Jafta
Chief Mzikayise Dalasile Acting Chief Mdanjelwa Mtirara Mr Dingile Boma Mxutu FLAGSTAFF :
ST MARKS : Chief Gwebizilwane Lowell Sigcau Chief Mali David Nonkonyana Mr George Sibidla Ndabankulu
Paramount Chief Kaizer Daliwonga Matanzima Chief Kaulele Malapo Mgudlwa Acting Chief George Bangilizwe Siyabalala Acting Chief Mbuzo Ngangomhlaba Matanzima Chief George Mzimvubu Matanzima Mr Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe
IDUTYWA:
Chief Mveyishi Bonkolo Chief Qombolo Watford Sigidi Mr Theseus Sizwe Sigcau Mr Walton Langalibalele Sipuka
TABANKULU : Chief Zwelabantu Diko Acting Chief Zilinge Siyoyo Chief Ntsikayezwe Twentyman Sigcau Mr Cromwell Diko Mr Dorrington Ndamase
KENTANI : Chief Nongudle Anderson Mapassa Chief Gwadana Merriman Dondashe Mr Diliza Hubert Mlonyeni
TSOLO :
LIBODE : Paramount Chief Nyangilizwe Tutor Ndamase Acting Chief Sidamela Robert Dlitamba Mr Elijah Vikinduku Ndamase
Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Chief Mafu Godfrey Mabandla Mr Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla Mr Tamsanqa Gladwin Vika
LUSIKISIKI :
TSOMO :
Paramount Chief Manzolwandle Botha Sigcau Chief Stanford Ludziya Sigcau Mr Kolisile Saul Ndzumo Miss Nomzamo Stella Sigcau
Chief Wiseman Gontsana Nkwenkwezi Mr Armstrong Ntsikelelo Jonas
UMTATA:
MATATIELE : Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Albert Bambilanga Dalindyebo Mr Zilingwenya Wilson Lufefeni Mr Temba Mhlabunzima Makaula
Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Acting Chief Wilson Ludidi Mr Mafika Pascoe Ludidi Mr Dalindyebo John Ndleleni
UMZIMKULU :
MOUNT AYLIFF : Chief Solomon Tobigunya Msingapantsi Chief Petros Jozana Chief Zwelinzima Setuse Chief Msudukeni Dlamini Mr Lenford Siphiwo Baleni Mr Hamilton Pamla
Mr Kolisile Gordon Nota MOUNT FLETCHER :
Acting Chieftainess Moroesi Constance Lebenya 391 .
deceased, and that these sentiments should be conveyed to the respective families. Thank, you Mr Chairman.
WILLOWVALE : Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chief Khalakhulu Tabatile Sigcau Mr Jongilizwe Moses Dumalisile XALANGA:
Acting Chief Bonani Nqanqeni Gecelo Acting Chief Xego Sami Moni Mr Jackson Mxosana Sigwela GLEN GREY :
Chief Manzezulu Mtirara Chief Zwelixolile Mpangele Mr Edward Zamayedwa Booi Mr Julius Mvumbi Mbalo Mr David Tezapi HERSCHEL :
Chief Mbuti Sydney Mehlomakulu Chief Cecil Madani Manxeba Chief Mahedi Kakudi Mr Simon Petros Bhurali Mr Sydney Phoofolo Kakudi
PARAMOUNT CHIEF'S REPRESENTATIVES : Mr A. M. Jikizwa Pt Cf M. B. Sigcau Mr B. R. Jico : Pt Cf N. T. Ndamase Mr N. Xhelo : Pt Cf M. X. Sigcau Mr B. Mgudlwa Pt Cf K. D. Matanzima Mr A. D. Joyi : Pt Cf S. Dalindyebo
The following members were absent for roll call :Chief Makosonke Sigcau Mr Lamwell Mgudlwa Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Dumezweni Lupindo Mr Kolisile Nota Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Manzodidi C Ludidi Chief Gwebinalala Mhlontlo Mr Popo Pakamilc Mr Siphiwo A Xobololo Chief Mpondombini Sigcau Chief Senyukele Jojo Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe Acting Chief Danisile Gobidolo Mr Norman Siphunzi
OBITUARIES CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon members, the following members of this Legislative Assembly have died since the prorogation of the last session of the Assembly :Chief Matanzima Magadla of the Hlubi tribe resident in the area of jurisdiction of the Manguzela Tribal Authority, Matatiele district, passed away on 23 May 1976 ; Chief Sitembele Mgudlwa of the Jumba tribe resident in the area of jurisdiction of the Jumba Tribal Authority in the district of Engcobo passed away on 30 June 1976. Mr Chairman, Chief Magadla was appointed as a chief of the Hlubi tribe in 1973 and was an ex officio member of the Legislative Assembly since then until his death, so the House will appreciate that he did not have a long enough time to involve himself in the deliberations of this Assembly. As a man known to me, however, he was a forceful figure with an impressive personality. He was highly respected by all his colleagues not only in this House but also in the region where he served as chief of his tribe. Chief Sitembele Mgudlwa of the Jumba tribe was appointed as chief of that tribe in 1957 in succession to the chieftainship of his late father and had been an ex officio member of the Legislative Assembly since 1963 until his death . We can imagine his charming demeanour and his smiles at the corner of the supporters of the Government party across the floor. He was not a speaker in this House but he exercised his vote well. I have no doubt that we shall all miss this member of the House, particularly the hon members who were sitting with him in that corner. This Government was represented at both funerals and expressions of condolence were conveyed by our representatives. With those few words, Mr Chairman , we should pass a motion that this House sympathises with the families of the
MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman and hon members, I stand up to second the motion of condolence which has been moved by the hon the Chief Minister to the families of those who have passed into a better world . Indeed the two deceased chiefs were silent members of this Assembly . They exercised their votes to the advantage of the Government and to the disadvantage of the Opposition , but we must say that as members of this House we feel their loss and their absence. Even though they did not participate actively in the debates they lent weight and substance to the dignity of this House . Chief Magadla may perhaps not be known to all of us and many of us may have a passing acquaintance of him . I must say that never at any time when this Assembly met was he absent from this House, and the bright lights of York Road never diverted his attention . Chief Sitembele Mgudlwa was a very likeable person . He never went out of his way to cause offence in any way whatsoever . One would have thought that his presence here would have moderated the kitchen politicians of the governing party. He was always co-operative, he never took politics to be a matter to destroy friendship between him and members of this House , including members of the Opposition , and this, of course, is indicative of maturity amongst the chiefs in the Transkei . We mourn their loss to this House and to their families and their tribes. The motion was passed , the members standing as a mark of respect to the late members . ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS CHAIRMAN: Hon paramount chiefs and hon members, I wish to advise that the following vacancies in the representation in this House, most of which occurred during the recess prior to the 1976 session, have been filled as follows :(a) The vacancy in the Bizana district created by the death of Chief Gangata Baleni on 11 September 1975 has been filled by Chief Sydney Malungelo Baleni . (b) The vacancy in the Kentani district due to the death of Chief Devilliers Mapassa on 2 October 1975 has been filled by Chief Nongudle Anderson Mapassa . (c) The vacancy in the Mqanduli district owing to the death of Chief Candulwandle Dumalisile on 17 January 1976 has been filled by Chief Dilikile Stanford Bacela. (d) The vacancy in the Tabankulu district created by the death of Acting Chieftainess Mildred Siyoyo on 3 December 1975 has been filled by Acting Chief Zilinge Siyoyo. (e) The vacancy of the representative for Paramount Chief Botha M Sigcau, the late Mr E A Pinyane who died on 10 May 1976, has been filled by Mr Alfred Mlindazwe Jikizwa. Will these members now come forward, each escorted by two members of the House, to take the oath to uphold the Constitution of the Transkei. The following members took the oath before the Chairman of the House :Chief D S Bacela Chief N A Mapassa Mr A M Jikizwa Acting Chief Z Siyoyo ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon members, I want to put the minds of hon members at ease by informing them that this Assembly was summoned in order to consider any observations which may be brought by the hon members on the Transkeian Constitution . Apart from that, there will be about three bills, one from the Department of Justice in connection with the Deeds Registry ; another bill from Interior which will concern the establishment of a Surveyor General's office in Umtata . There will also be an amendment of the Transkei Corporations Bill. This is all short legislation but because I have fixed the number of days on which this Assembly will sit to five only, for that reason I move that all sessions should start at 10 o'clock instead of 11 o'clock, but should I find that members are wasting the time of the House I may propose that we have night sittings. Thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIRMAN: Hon members, as the hon the Chief Minister has indicated the Transkeian Corporations Act 1976 was passed by this Assembly at its previous session. Before the bill was processed any further an error was discovered in it. It transpired from a legal opinion called for by the Department of Bantu Administration and Development that clause 11 of the bill was ultravires the powers of this Assembly and would therefore not be assented to by the State President, so the matter must now be dealt with
392.
in terms of rule 124 of the Rules of Procedure of this House. The error in the bill does not affect the basic principle of the measure and it must thus again be discussed by a committee of this Assembly and then be processed in the normal way. The Assembly will therefore go into committee to consider the Transkeian Corporations Act on Tuesday, 27 July 1976 and the committee stage of the said bill will be put on the order paper for that date. NOTICES OF BILLS M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I beg to give notice that on Tuesday, the 27th day of July 1976 I propose to move the first reading of a bill to provide for the further amendment of the Deeds Registries Act, 1937, to enable all attorneys practising as attorneys in the Transkei to perform the functions of conveyancers in terms of the Act irrespective of whether they have been admitted to practise as conveyancers . M/INTERIOR: Mr Chairman and hon members, I beg to give notice that on Tuesday, the 27th day ofJuly 1976 I propose to move the first reading of a bill to provide for the establishment of a Surveyor- General's office, the appointment of a Surveyor-General for the Transkei and to prescribe the powers, functions and duties of the Surveyor General.
DISCUSSION OF DRAFT CONSTITUTION CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon members , during the process of our discussions on this Transkeian Constitution draft bill in May of this year, certain hon members suggested that the country should be given more time in order to make their observations on this important piece of legislation and when this suggestion came from one of the members of the recess committee , as leader of the Government in consultation with the Cabinet we felt that we should give this opportunity to the hon members of the House by summoning this session which we have today. CHIARMAN : I am sorry to intervene but I feel as was the procedure last time that all the recess committee members should be on one side and the rest on the other side. All committee members will therefore sit on my left side. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman , I was persuaded by the suggestions which came from some of the committee members that I should call a session of this Assembly during the year. The purpose of this session is not to deal with this draft constitution de novo but to get observations from those people who are probably not satisfied with certain provisions of the said bill . Sir, it will be your duty this morning to call upon the hon members to put forward any observations which they must have discovered during the recess. The recess committee met this morning and decided unanimously that as far as they are concerned there were no observations , and that this piece of legislation should be submitted to the incoming parliament for formal passage, as amended . I hope the hon members are now clear about the intentions of the Government . Thank you very much, Mr Chairman . CHAIRMAN : Hon members of the House, I shall now call upon any hon member of this House who has any constructive suggestions or comments or who has anything which is relevant to the Constitution to stand up and say it, please. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman , I would that you put it to the House that hon members should come forward with their amendments to this bill as passed , and then make observations to those amendments . If you merely call upon hon members to talk on this Constitution they may be evasive and bring nothing concrete , nothing of substance to the House by way of an amendment . I should like them to be pinned down to amendments and that you shall have to suspend the rules of the House and deal with the amendments straight away. MAN : It has been put by the Chief Minister CHAIR that we deal only with amendments , and nothing else but amendments . Does anyone second that proposal ? M/EDUCATION : I second , Mr Chairman . Agreed to . CHAIRMAN : I call for relevant amendments, please. MR M P LUDIDI : Mr Chairman , I have a question to raise. We are all confused and we do not know which way to go regarding this draft Constitution . During the last session of this House we introduced some amendments which were subsequently accepted by the recess committee . I do not know whether new amendments are being invited now or whether we are going to refer to the amendments made previously which were in turn accepted by the recess committee .
M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman , in reply to the question raised by the hon member for Matatiele I wish to reply as follows :- If the hon members listened carefully, the hon the Chief Minister referred to the draft Constitution which is a bill as amended . He said " as amended ", which meant as amended and passed by this House, so that the amendments to which the hon member refers are the amendments which make the draft bill as amended . CHIEF I MATIWANE : Mr Chairman , I wish to advise this House that my hearing is now defective . Mr Chairman and hon members , I wish to ask this House to explain to us what is going to happen in future, because we are now entering a new era. We are all anxious to get to independence and what is ringing in our minds all the time is independence. We would like an explanation to be made about what is going to happen . We accepted the new situation and if there are any people who are not satisfied with the new Constitution they may raise questions . CHAIRMAN : Are there any further comments re the amendments of the draft Constitution ? CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman , I wish to thank this House for having stuck to its decision . I think the world will now realise that we are ripe and we cannot just be dissuaded by irresponsible criticisms of people who are opposed to the Transkeian Government . I refer particularly to the local English paper, the Daily Dispatch . I know their attitude . The Transkei used to be the new England ofthe British colonialists and they can never be happy when it comes back to its people . Now, my office is going to bind up the Act as amended and it will be submitted to the new parliament on 26 October 1976 for formal passage. MEMBERS : Hear, hear. CHIEF MINISTER: Thank you very much, Mr Chairman, and I move that if you have nothing more on the agenda that the House should adjourn until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.
Agreed to. The Assembly adjourned until 10 am on Tuesday, 27 July 1976. TUESDAY, 27 JULY 1976
Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . ANNOUNCEMENTS CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon members, I think it is necessary for the House to know how this House sits, and in that connection I wish to inform you that the hon membes for Willowvale, Chief Tabatile Sigcau , has crossed over to the Government benches. TABLING OF REPORTS OR PAPERS CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon members, I lay upon the table a summary of the amendments to the draft Constitution of the Republic of Transkei as agreed to at the last session of the Assembly, together with certain other amendments drafted by the law adviser to ensure continuity of administration . Sir, I would just like to make a short explanation about this, that these proposed amendments are amendments which were passed by this House and that is up to section 5 of this document, but the law adviser subsequently discovered that the Constitution as it was did not provide for the continuation of the Appeal and Divorce Court in order to finish up its work and be substituted by the Supreme Court of Transkei. This is from section 6 of the document . We amend section 54 of the Transkei Constitution and also section 58 , which is in the category of the clauses from 1 to 5 - i e , amendments which were passed by this House. Section 58 is the citizenship clause, but sections 54, 60, 61 , 74 , 76 have also to be amended. Now, this necessitates a meeting of the recess committee and, with your indulgence, Mr Chairman, at 1 pm the House will adjourn until 3.45 p m in order to allow the recess committee to go through these clauses I have referred to . Now, for clarity I want to inform the House that clauses 1 , 2, 3 , 4, 5 and 7 are matters which were passed at the last session and approved by this House yesterday, but the House has to consider clauses 6, 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 and 13 and from now all the hon members of the House should study these clauses up to 3.45 this afternoon . There is a full explanation about Thank you very much, Mr these amendments here. Chairman . 393 .
TRANSKEIAN CORPORATIONS BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE
Of course, this discovery brings to the surface what we have always stated that this Government is merely an extension of the arm of the Republican Government and legislates on behalf of that Governement. (Interjections) May I say quite clearly that this principle of endorsement on title deeds is one which has created some reservations in my own mind. One would have thought that movable property passing from one owner to another should go through the normal channels of transfer and not be endorsement. I make this observation so that the Government should not think when it seeks to reintroduce clause 11 that it will have plain sailing when this clause comes before this House. We will not oppose this amendment at this stage.
CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman, I move that the House should now sit in committee. M/EDUCATION : I second, Mr Chairman.
Agreed to. House in Committee On Clause 11
CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon members, members have got the bill before them, but before they consider it I just want to make a short explanation. The Transkeian Corporations Act 1976 was passed by the Legislative Assembly at its most recent session. Before the bill was tabled in the Legislative Assembly it was submitted to the Department of Bantu Administration and Development in Pretoria for comment. Only after the bill had already been passed by the Legislative Assembly were the comments of the Department of Bantu Administration and Development received. It transpired from a legal opinion called for by the Department of Bantu Administration and Development that clause11 - Exemption from income tax and transfer duty - was ultra vires the legislative powers of the Legislative Assembly and would therefore not be assented to by the State President. Clause 11 was deemed ultra vires on the grounds that the Legislative Assembly had no power to legislate in regard to taxation of a corporation. Due to the foregoing, the bill was not proceeded with any further by my department -- that is, numbered, printed and submitted for signature and must now be dealt with at this session of the Legislative Assembly in terms of rule 124 of the Rules of Procedure. Rule 124 states that upon the discovery of any error in a bill which has been passed by the Assembly and before it has been forwarded to the Commissioner-General for transmission to the State President for assent, the Chairman or Deputy Chairman shall report such error and it shall thereupon be dealt with as with any other amendment provided that corrections of a verbal or formal nature - i e, spelling or obvious grammatical mistakes or typographical errors may be made at any time by the Secretary under the direction of the Chairman or Deputy Chairman. The following amendments will be necessary to cause the bill to be intra vires:(a) We shall have to delete clause 11 ; and (b) renumber clauses 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 and 17 to read 11 , 12, 13, 14, 15 and 16 respectively and amend the renumbered clause 16(2) by deleting the reference to clause 16 and substituting 15. Mr Chairman, the urgency of the original submission of this bill was to enable the incorporation of Transkei Airways Corporation before independence and the smooth take-over of the Transkei Development Corporation after independence. The initial implications of excising clause 11 of the bill are that Transkei Airways will be liable for income tax and transfer duties from its inception whilst the Transkei Development Corporation will become liable for these taxes when taken over by the Transkeian Government. This is, of course, not what is wanted. It is illogical that State Corporations should be liable for these taxes and duties, because they are financed by the Government and are in a sense arms of the Government. The payment of a tax, therefore, or income tax and transfer duty by them to Government becomes nonsensical. If, however, the position is regularized after 26 October 1976 by amending the Corporations Act to again include clause 11 the matter will be put right. The Transkei Development Corporation will not be affected as it will only be taken over after independence. The Transkei Airways Corporation would, however, be liable for tax on income and for transfer duties from the date of its inception until 26 October 1976. As the Transkei Airways Corporation is not expected to make a profit on its first year of operation or to purchase property before 26 Octer, the financial implications of its liability for these taxes are also of no consequence. On the other hand, the Transkeian Corporations Act is urgently needed to launch th anskei Airways Corporation before independence. Ink this explanation is quite clear. There are no new principles involved in the bill. It is just the renumbering of the clauses . The only principle involved is that of taxation of a Government institution by the same Government. Thank you very much ,Mr Chairman. M/EDUCATION : I second, Mr Chairman. D/CHAIRMAN: Any comments ? MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman, there is very little to say by way of comment on this amendment and it is just as well that the error was discovered before it was too late.
Amendment put and agreed to. House Resumed
D/CHAIRMAN: Mr Chairman, I wish to report that the amendment of the Transkeian Corporations Act 1976 has been accepted by this House unanimously. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon members, I move that the rules of the House be suspended so as to put the bill through all the stages. M/EDUCATION: I second. Agreed to. TRANSKEIAN CORPORATIONS BILL READING
THIRD
CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, I move that the bill be read a third time. M/AGRICULTURE : I second.
Agreed to. The bill was read a third time. SUSPENSION OF RULES
M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman and hon members, before I move the first reading of this bill may I crave your indulgence, Sir, to ask the House to waive its rules so that I go through the first, second and third readings of the bill at the same time. MR K M GUZANA : And miss the committee stage? M/JUSTICE: Go through everything. MR GUZANA: Well, mention the committee stage. M/EDUCATION : I second . M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, the burden of having legal representatives in the House is that an omission is usually pointed out on the spot. When I requested the House to waive its rules I referred to the first, second and third readings and omitted the committee stage. May it be included in the waiver, Mr Chairman. M/HEALTH : Seconded, Mr Chairman. Agreed to.
DEEDS REGISTRY FURTHER AMENDMENT ACT: FIRST READING M/JUSTICE : Mr Chairman and hon members, I lay upon the table a copy of the Transkeian Deeds Registry Further Amendment Bill and I move that it be read a first time. M/ROADS : I second. Agreed to. The bill was read a first time.
DEEDS REGISTRY FURTHER AMENDMENT BILL: SECOND READING M /JUSTICE : Mr Chairman, Honourable Paramount Chiefs and Honourable Members : It gives me great pleasure to introduce the Transkeian Deeds Registry Further Amendment Bill for consideration by this House. Mr Chairman, you will no doubt recall, that this house has recently passed a Bill which inter alia provides for the establishment of a Deeds Registry for the Transkei. It now appears that there have hitherto been no attorneys admitted or practising as conveyancers in the Transkei, because there has been no deeds office in the Transkei. However, the attorneys used to do the preparatory work in connection with the deeds forwarded to and executed by their correspondents in Cape Town as deeds can be executed by conveyancers only, the establishment of a deeds office at 394.
Umtata will serve no purpose unless the attorneys are enabled to act as conveyancers. Mr Chairman this is a very short amendment and I move that the Bill be read a second time. M/AGRICULTURE: I second. MR K M GUZANA : Mr Chairman and hon members, even if I am not going to oppose, at least I have the right to comment on this bill. I think this is a sensible amendment to the Deeds Registry Act which was passed here at the last session of this Assembly and I feel that this is the sort of procedure which the Republic can very well copy. I am sure it will reduce expense in respect of transfers and it will indeed allow the attorneys to do the work which in fact they have been doing on behalf of these conveyancers who merely took the documents and lodged them and debited the country attorney with a heavy fee. I therefore support this amendment whole-heartedly.
Chiefs, Honourable Members, on behalf of the M/Interior I rise to explain the main purposes and principles embodied in the Transkeian Surveyor-General's Bill.
This Bill introduces an establishment in the Transkei which is only encountered in developed countries. The importance of a proper Land Registration System is usually appreciated by all concerned . However it is not always obvious that a proper Surveyor-General's office is the keystone of a good Registration System and thus Security of Title which is a basic tool in stimulating economic and social development. In terms of section 22, 37 and 65 and item 9 of Part B of the Second Schedule of the Constitution Act 1963 (Act 48 of 1963) a Surveyor- General's Office could be established for the Transkei. To date all the Property Records of the Transkei have been kept in the Surveyor-General's Office in Cape Town and that office has kindly rendered this particular service to the Transkei . One of the main reasons why the Transkei requested the Surveyor-General in Cape Town to continue with this service has been the lack of trained personnel. This problem has now been solved :- Besides the two Transkeian Technicians that qualified this year, there are seven students at Fort Hare, four inservice trainees and three seconded officials with whom a start can be made. It should also be mentioned that the Surveyor-General in Cape Town assisted this Department tremendously in training some of the above Transkeian Officials in his office during the past two years.
Put and agreed to. The bill was read a second time. DEEDS REGISTRY FURTHER AMENDMENT BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman, I move that this House converts itself into a committee in order to consider this bill. M/HEALTH : I second, Mr Chairman.
Agreed to. We are in the enviable position of taking over a microfile system from Cape Town which is second to none in the world. Not even a modern Surveyor-General's office like the one in Transvaal can boast of such a fine system and we are grateful to everybody involved for their ardent efforts. Mr Chairman I now move that the Bill be read a second time. M/AGRICULTURE : I second, Mr Chairman. MR K M GUZANA : No comments.
House in Committee Clause 1 and 2 put and agreed to. Long title put and agreed to. House Resumed
D/CHAIRMAN : Mr Chairman, I wish to report that the Transkeian Deeds Registry Further Amendment Bill 1976 has been passed by this House unanimously.
Put and agreed to.
The bill was read a second time. DEEDS REGISTRY FURTHER AMENDMENT BILL: THIRD READING
SURVEYOR-GENERAL BILL
M/JUSTICE: Mr Chairman and hon members, I move that the Transkeian Deeds Registry Further Amendment Bill be read a third time. M/HEALTH : I second.
M/HEALTH : Mr Chairman and hon members, I move that the House converts itself into committee. M/AGRICULTURE : I second.
COMMITTEE STAGE
Agreed to . Agreed to.
House in Committee The bill was read a third time. Clauses 1 to 5 of the bill put and agreed to. SUSPENSION OF RULES
Long title put and agreed to. M/INTERIOR : Mr Chairman and hon members, before I move the first reading of the bill I wish to crave the indulgence of the House so that the rules of discussion should be waived to allow me to proceed with all the stages of the Surveyor-General Bill as follows :- First reading . second reading, committee stage and the third reading. M/HEALTH : I second, Mr Chairman.
House Resumed
D/CHAIRMAN: Mr Chairman, I wish to report that the Transkeian Surveyor-General Bill 1976 has been passed by this House without any amendment. SURVEYOR-GENERAL
BILL
: THIRD
READING
Agreed to. M/HEALTH : Mr Chairman and hon members, I move that the bill be read a third time. M/AGRICULTURE : I second.
SURVEYOR-GENERAL BILL : FIRST READING M/INTERIOR: Mr Chairman and hon members, I lay upon the table a copy of the bill and I move that it be read a first time . M/HEALTH : I second.
Agreed to. The bill was read a third time.
Agreed to.
CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, the recess Committee will meet now in the board-room and instead of the House adjourning till 3.45 this afternoon I think you should adjourn it to 2.15 pm. M/HEALTH : I second.
The bill was read a first time. SURVEYOR-GENERAL BILL : SECOND READING M/INTERIOR: Mr Chairman, in view of the fact that I have a nasty cold, may I ask that one of my colleagues should read it for me.
Agreed to. The Assembly adjourned .
AFTERNOON SESSION
Agreed to. SURVEYOR-GENERAL BILL 1976 : SECOND READING
M/HEALTH :
CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, I would request through you that the members of the recess committee sit together as we are still continuing with the Transkeian Constitution.
Mr Chairman, Honourable Paramount 395.
CHIARMAN : Will the members of the recess committee please comply. I call upon the hon the Chief Minister in connection with the proposed amendments to the draft Constitution. DISCUSSION OF DRAFT CONSTITUTION CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and hon members, this morning I tabled the amendments which were proposed by this Assembly at its last session - amendments of the Republic of Transkei Constitution Bill which amendments were confirmed by this House yesterday, but this document also has certain sections which are to be amended in the original Republic of Transkei Constitution Bill and your recess committee sat this morning and decided that these amendments should be effected . I refer to amendments to section 54 (a) and (b) and to sections 61 , 74 and 76. Turning to this document before you which was tabled this morning, clauses 1 , 2 , 3, 4, 5 and 7 are not at issue . Those are not matters which have to be considered by this House because they relate to the Transkei Constitution Bill which has already been amended . These are amendments which were carried by this House. We have to deal with clause 6 of this document and with clauses 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 and 13. Now, as regards section 54 we would like to amend this section by the substitution for paragraph (c) of subsection (1 ) of the following paragraph : "(c) all proceedings pending immediately prior to the commencement of this Act (i) in any court constituted under section 10 of the Bantu Administration Act, 1927 and in the aforesaid High Court shall stand removed to the magistrate's court of the district and the Supreme Court of Transkei, respectively, which shall have jurisdiction to hear and determine the same; (ii) in any court constituted or established under section 13 of the Bantu Administration Act, 1927 or section 10 of the Bantu Administration Act, 1927, Amendment Act, 1929 (Act 9 of 1929) shall be continued and concluded in every respect as if this Act had not been passed : Provided that any court established under the said section 10 of the Bantu Administration Act, 1927, Amendment Act, 1929 to which it may be made to appear that any proceedings pending therein may be more conveniently or fitly heard or determined in the Supreme Court of Transkei may order the same to be removed to the Supreme Court and thereupon the Supreme Court may continue with such proceedings in like manner as if they had been commenced therein;"; and (b) by the substitution in paragraph (d) of subsection (1 ) for the expression " any other court referred to in paragraph (a)" of the expression "any other court (other than the Supreme Court) referred to in paragraph (a) or (c)"
Mr Chairman, section 54(1 )(c) has been redrafted to include a reference to the Bantu Appeal Court (constituted under section 13 of Act 38 of 1927) and the Bantu Divorce Court (established under section 10 of Act 9 of 1929) . These courts will still be in existence on 26 October but solely for the purpose of disposing of pending cases . They must therefore be authorised to continue to deal with those cases until finality is reached. The Divorce Court is nevertheless at the same time being empowered to transfer pending cases to the Supreme Court of Transkei for final disposal if it so thinks fit. The amendment proposed in item 6(b) is consequential and merely preserves the validity of the judgements and orders of the disestablished Courts. I think this is clear. What we seek in this amendment is the continuation of the Appeal and Divorce Court so that those cases which had been initiated should be finalized and ifwe do not have this provision there will be a log-jam. The recess committee went into this and we found this was a necessary amendment to section 54 of the Republic of Transkei Constitution Bill. I move the adoption of this section, Mr Chairman. M/EDUCATION : I second.
Put and agreed to. CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, reverting to the proposed amendment to section 60 I would request hon members to open their draft Constitutions and look at section 60. It will be easier for you to understand what is sought by this amendment. It is sought to amend section 60 -
(a) by the addition to subsection (2) of the following: and any regulation, rule, order, notice, approval, registration or authority made, given or granted and any other action taken under any such law by any Minister or other authority or person in the Republic of South Africa prior to the commencement of this Act shall , in relation to the administration of Transkei, be deemed to have been made, given, granted or taken by such corresponding Minister, authority or person in Transkei. " ; and (b) by the substitution for paragraph (i) of subsection (3) 66 of the following paragraph : Official Gazette of the (i) the Official Gazettee or the Transkei or the Gazette, the Government Gazette of the Republic of South Africa or the Provincial Gazette shall be construed as a reference to the Government Gazette of the Republic of Transkei."
Mr Chairman , the purpose of the amendment (a) in paragraph (a) above is to ensure continuity in administration after Transkeian independence and to preserve the validity of subordinate legislation such as, for example, the regulations and rules published under South African statutes. There are also certain persons or bodies holding authorizations whereby they carry on business (e.g. financial institutions such as banks) and which were issued to them by the Government of the Others again hold authoriRepublic of South Africa. zations whereby their rights (e.g. in such things as patents, trade marks and copyright) are protected. For obvious reasons the validity of such authorizations must be preserved in Transkei until such time as they expire by effluxion of time and can be re-considered by the Transkeian Government. This will be brought about by the proposed amendment which converts the authorizations into Transkeian authorizations; (b) in paragraph (b) is to make sure that any reference in any law to any kind of Official, Government or other Gazette must be interpreted as a reference to the Government Gazette of the Republic of Transkei. I think this is quite clear, hon members . There are certain institutions such as banks and the social welfare associations which are functioning under certificates which were authorised by the Republic of South Africa. There should be no disruption and these institutions must proceed as if nothing had happened . If this provision is not there the banks may not proceed with their normal duties until authorized by the Republic of Transkei Government. I think that is clear. I move the adoption of this section, Mr Chairman. M/EDUCATION : I second. Put and agreed to. CHIEF MINISTER : Reverting to the proposed amendment to section 61 , Mr Chairman , it is sought to substitute in paragraph (a), for the words "charge, obligation or trust", the words " charge or obligation". In our Constitution, if you turn to section 61 you will find these words in subsection (a) : "All Government land which at the commencement of this Act or at any time thereafter is reserved for occupation by the tribes or communities residing thereon shall (a) vest in the President subject to any existing charge, obligation or trust. Now those are the words we would like to be substituted and we put in the words " charge or obligation" . It is necessary to delete the reference to a trust to make it peifectly clear that the land is no longer subject to the provisions of the trust created by section 4 of the Bantu Trust and Land Act 1936 that is to say, the South African Bantu Trust. In other words, after 26 October there will no longer be any trust land in Transkei . That is why we want to delete those words " or trust". I move the adoption of this section. M/EDUCATION : I second.
Put and agreed to. CHIEF MINISTER : In amending section 74 it is desired to substitute in paragraph (a) of subsection (2) for the word "province" the word "colony." I think that is clear. We want to remove the word " province" and put the word "colony". We shall have nothing to do with a province. (b) by the addition to subsection (2) of the following paragraphs :"(f) the provisions of section 59 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 shall, subject to the provisions of section 61 of this Act ,continue to apply in respect of the transfer to the Government of
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"Short title and date of commencement"
Transkei of the land or other public property referred to in the said section 59 ; and (g) the provisions of section 61 (1 ) of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 shall remain in operation in relation to the officers and employees mentioned therein"; and (c) by the addition of the following subsection : "(5) For the purposes of any law which, in terms of the first proviso to subsection (1 ) of section 60, applies throughout Transkei (hereinafter referred to as the Transkeian law) anything done in pursuance of powers conferred on the competent authority by or by virtue of any provision of law repealed by subsection (1 ) of this section shall be deemed to have been done in pursuance of powers conferred on such authority by or by virtue of the corresponding provision of the Transkeian law."
I move the adoption. Put and agreed to.
CHIEF MINISTER : Coming to the amendment of Schedule 9 of the Republic of Transkei Draft Constitution Billie the laws which are to be repealed or amended the amendment corrects printing errors and inserts certain other necessary Acts. The list may still not be complete as all the 1976 Acts of the Republic of South Africa have not yet been published and we would like to repeal more. The bill will be brought up to date before it is finally printed . The Transkei Flag Act 1966 is being deleted as the Constitution itself now deals with the Transkeian flag. I move the adoption.
Now, let me make an explanation on this, hon members. With regard to paragraph (a) of the section, the reference to "colony" instead of "province " is more appropriate . I think we are all agreed on that. Now, as regards the proposed paragraph (f), the provisions of section 59 of the Transkei Constitution Act 1963 must be perpetuated so that the transfer of land or other public property to the Government of Transkei will not be subject to transfer duty or other fees or charge. As regards the proposed paragraph (g), this savings clause must be adopted to ensure that the public servants of the Republic of South Africa referred to in section 61 (1) of Act 48 of 1963 become Transkeian public servants, notwithstanding the repeal of Act 48 of 1963. As regards the proposed new subsection (5), in this section where a Transkeian law supersedes a South African law (for example, the Transkei Road Traffic Act 1967 which supersedes the Road Traffic Ordinance 1966) it is necessary to preserve the validity of certain administrative acts (for example, the appointment to traffic officers or the making of traffic regulations by a local authority) . The proposed new subsection purports to do just what has been said . I think this is all understood and I move the adoption of the section. M/EDUCATION : I second, Mr Chairman . Put and agreed to .
M/EDUCATION : I second. Put and agreed to.
CHIEF MINISTER : With regard to the amendment to Schedule 11 of the Republic of Transkei Constitution Bill, as regards Act 38 of 1927 we have to insert in the third column of the Schedule after the figure " 11 ", the figures "13, 14, 15". This is consequential to what we have just said. As a matter of fact, all these sections are merely consequential to the amendments referred to in previous sections. They have got to be made. Paragraph (d) is necessary because the Transkei will have its own development corporations. Paragraphs (e) to (h) are consequential also. I move the adoption of this section . M/HEALTH : I second. Agreed to.
CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman, I move that all these amendments should be adopted by this House. M/EDUCATION : I second, Mr Chairman.
CHIEF MINISTER : Coming to section 76 we would like to substitute the following for the marginal inscription opposite section 76 :—
Put and agreed to.
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UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN
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