Second Lebowa Legislative Assembly. Volume 11 (eleven). Part I. Verbatim report of the 1977 session: 28 March - 18 April

Table of contents :
Front Cover
if one considers that only 21 out of 425 posts ...
1977 : TUESDAY 29TH MARCH. ...
The second announcement, Mr Speaker, Sir, is ...
It is my submission, Mr Speaker, Sir, ...
1977 : WEDNESDAY, THE 30TH MARCH. ...
1977 THURSDAY THE 31ST MARCH. ...
1977: MONDAY APRIL THE 4TH. ...
• ...
65 ...
90 ...
1977: WEDNESDAY THE 13TH APRIL. ...
1977: THURSDAY THE 14TH APRIL. ...
THE SPEAKER: ...
FRIDAY 15TH APRIL 1977. ...
MR M.W. KGATLA: Mr Speaker, I am going ...
that the Je polic-ple is followed ...
LEBOWA LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY: ...
Phasha ...
with your consent. ...
TUESDAY 1977: APRIL THE 20TH. ...
COMMITTEE STAGE. ...
dangerous to the people of Kgoŝi Molepo and to our ...
You told me that you were going to do something ...
Now I do not want him to be sad. ...
The road passes also a big river called Mobaba. ...
AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Sit down! ...
We also requested for streets in our villages. People ...
The people bringing mealiemeal have no roads leading into the ...
How many carpenters have left on their own or have ...
THE CHAIRMAN: Order honourable member how is that ...
MR. GODFREY SEKHUKHUNE: ...
Now, I want to know the kind of co...
KGOĜI L.L. NTWAMPE: Mr. Chairman, through you to ...
On the whole it looks a fine road, but ...
Now when we look at our book on page 17...
Are we then citizens of this country? ...
1977: FRIDAY THE 22ND APRIL. ...
THE SPEAKER: We will proceed with questions and ...
I have not heard one member appreciating the electrification ...
THE FIFTH SESSION OF THE SECOND LEBOWA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY ...
I want to end by saying that our motion of ...
because the contractor has to pay income tax every year...
And I don't think the Tender Board would have any ...
are getting them. If they get these, why ...
They are mad, they must go home. ...
sufficient to subsidize 238 classrooms only. In 1976 there ...
THE SPEAKER: Did you stand on a point of ...
DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Order! hon. members ...
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! This House will ...
It shows me that the Bantwane tribe is going to ...
Because our education system is till part and parcel of ...
MR. A.S. MAHLANGU: I was on the question ...
The school is only running short of benches, teachers...
This is the reply to your question and the circulation ...
In our Department we have already planned for two extra ...
THE CHAIRMAN: Honourable member, I will give you ...
Those children are accommodated at Modjadji and C. N. Phatudi ...
KGOŝI L.L. NTWAMPE: Point of order Mr. Chairman. ...
MR. E.D. MABOT JA: The Department of Education ...
Do these people pay rent on their occupation of these ...
I am afraid Mr. Chairman. We will have to ...
This is very unfair in the part of the chair...
Mr. Chairman, I realised from the honourable the Minister ...
After my speech last year, this House agreed upon ...
If I have not answered them all, he will ...
360 ...
361 ...
362 ...
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Speaker and hon. members...
are quoting the examples that the governments have done similar ...
COMMITTEE STAGE. ...
The committee members are supposed to terminate their duties after ...
corporal punishment etc. Other strikes are detrimentally oppo- ...
1977: WEDNESDAY MAY THE 4TH. ...
Unclassified Workmen III ...
VOTE 5: ...
money and get more and double as he has promised ...
One other matter I would like to mention is in ...
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES; Honourable members, be ...
1 ...
MR. I.M. MODJADJI: I second the motion. ...
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members it is our privilege ...
time of the House. As we can see everything...
There is a road there at Bushbuckridge towards Rounie, ...
LEBOWA LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY: ...
Phasha ...

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LEBOWA

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

VOLUME 11 ( ELEVEN) PART I

VERBATIM REPORT

OF THE

1977

SESSION

28 MARCH - 18 APRIL, 1977

L

LEBOWA

LEGISLATIVE

ASSEMBLY

1977

COMMISSIONER-GENERAL FOR THE NORTH SOTHO NATIONAL UNIT :

DR . R. MCLACHLAN

MEMBERS OF THE CABINET

CHIEF MINISTER AND OF FINANCE

Dr. C.N. Mr M.S.

MINISTER FOR TE INTERIOR

Phatudi Mamiane

•

Kgoši Z .. Seleka Moloko Mr I.K.

MINISTER OF WORKS

•

Kgoši L.S. Matlala

MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY

•

Kgoši B.L. Malatji

MINISTER OF HEALTH ·

.

Kgoši M.M. Marishane .

MINISTER OF JUSTICE

MINISTER OF EDUCATION

OFFICE BEARERS :

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Kgosi M.M. Matlala Mr M.T.D. Leboho

DEPUTY SPEAKER AND CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES SECRETARY

·

ASSISTANT SECRETARY

·

Mr H.H. Mr

M.M.

Ramokgopa Tsebane .

JBK 93-79

MEMBERS :

Bopape Chiloane

M.T.

:

Mamiane

M.S.

Kgosi M.E.

0:

Mampane

Chuene

Kgosigadi R.K. S.L.

::

Mampuru Marishane

Kgoši K. N.R.

Kgosi E.R.

: :

Marogi Maserumule

Kgoši S.T.

Kgošigadi V.T. Kgoši A.B. P.L.

:

Mashashane

Kgošigadi T.

:

Mashego

:

Mashegoane Mashiane

Kgoši M. Kgoši T. N.S.

Digashu Dikgale Dinkwanyane Kekana Kekana

Kgatla Kibi Kwakwa Langa Langa Leboho Ledwaba Ledwaba Lekalakala Leshabane Mabooe

Mabotja Madisha

:

M.W.

Kgosi Tyson S.P.

:

Kgoši M.

Kgoši M.J.

Kgoši J.

Kgoši M.H. S.M.

:

Mashung Mathabatha

:

Mathebe

M.T.D.

:

Mathebe

Kgošigadi J. Kgoši P.M.

:

Mathole

Kgoši G.T. M.G. L.G.

:

Matlala

Kgoši B.K.

Kgoši K.M. H.M.

:

Matlala

Kgoši H.T.

:

Matlala

Kgoši L.S.

Kgoši Tseke E.D.

:

Matlala

:

Modjadji

Kgoši M.M. H.M. M.I.

Kgoši M.M.

E.C.

:

Modjadji

Madisha

L.M.

:

Modjaji

S.D.

Mahlangu

Kgoši J. S.A.

:

Mogashoa

Kgoši M.E.

: :

Mogoboya Mohlala

Kgoši M.F.

Kgošigadi Jane Kgoši E.S.

:

Mohlala

Kgoši M.G. M.J.

Makgato Makola

R.M.

::

T.P.

:

Molepo Moloko

Kgosi A.S. I.K.

Malatji

Kgoši Abner

:

Moloto

Malatji Malebana

Kgoši Brown K.I.

:

Moloto

Kgoši K.E. M.

:

Mothapo

S.S.

Malekane Maloma

Kgoši M. E.M.

: :

Mothapo Mothiba

Kgoši T.J. L.C.

Mamabolo

Kgoši J.M.

:

Nchabeleng

Kgoši J.K.

Kgošigaai M.S. Kgosi M.R.

:

:

Nkadimeng Nkadimeng

Kgoši P. S.H.

:

Nkoane

D.J.

Mametja

Kgoši J.K. M.F.

:

Mametja

M.J.

:

Ntwampe Phaahla

:

Phatudi

Kgoši E.S. C.N.

:

Seleka

Kgoši Z.T.

Mahlangu Mahlo Maja

Mamabolo Mamaila Mamaila

Kgosi L.L.

THE FIFTH SESSION OF THE SECOND LEBOWA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY .

MONDAY ,

28TH MARCH ,

1977 .

The Sitting commences at 10h00 with a Prayer . The Secretary reads the notice of the summoning of the Lebowa Legislative Assembly and there - after calls the roll of the members of the Legislative Assembly .

MR . SPEAKER : Now , Honourab le Members , the House will adjourn the deliberation until 14h00 when we will be starting the official opening by s His Excellency , the Deputy Minister of Bantu Affairs of the Republic of South Africa , in this Hall . AT

14h30 :

The Speaker offers the platform to His Excellency the Deputy Minister of Bantu Affairs of the Republic of South Africa . THE DEPUTY MINISTER : Mr. Speaker and Honourable Members of the Legislative Assembly , I am honoured to officiate at this , the last session of your present Legislative Assembly , and have been requested to convey to you the sincere greetings of the Government of the Republic of South Africa and in particular those of the Honourable M.C. Botha , Minister of Bantu Administration and Development and of Bantu Education . The sudden death of Mr. G.P.C. Bezuidenhout , Commissioner-General of the North Sotho National Unit , on Saturday , 29 January 1977 , has to a large extent cast a shadow over the exciting prospects of fruitful discussions and constructive work afforded by the opening of this session . From his appointment on 1 January 1972 , Mr. Bezuidenhout displayed great zeal in working for the advancement and growth of Lebowa in every sphere of life . The fruit of his labours will not pass unnoticed and his influence will long be felt . The moving words of tribute spoken by your Chief Minister at the funeral of the late Commissioner- General , testify to the fact that your Cabinet and this Assembly held the late Mr. Bezuidenhout in high esteem . It is a pity that Lebowa and South Africa had to lose so dedicated a servant , but you may fittingly revere his memory by building on the foundations he has laid . The vacant post of Commissioner- General has fortunately been filled by the appointment of Dr. R. McLachlan . I am pleased that he is present at today's function and would like to congratulate him on his appointment . I wish him a pleasant and fruitful term of office and I am conversant that , with his fervour and sympathies , he will maintain the high standard of work of his predecessor .

The progress you have already made on the road to self- realisation since your former Territorial Authority was re - instated in August 1969 and again , since you became a self- ruling territory on 2 October , 1972 , is remarkable . You have assumed an increasing number of duties and greater responsibilities , and have proved that you are capable of carrying out those duties and bearing those responsibilities . I understand that this year , for the first time , you are thinking of exercising your authority to raise loans for the financing of some of your important capital works . Provided such a loan is raised judiciously , it is to me in many respects the sign of a step forward , for not only will it now be possible for you to set up your infrastructure in your area more quickly, but it will also be possible to lay the foundations for secondary development . I am very glad that your Government is displaying so much responsibility and confidence in being prepared to accept the

2

consequential obligations in terms of the proposed loan .

The economic development of a country does not, however , as we all know , depend solely on investment by the public sector and I am therefore disappointed to see that the contribution made by your private sector has until now , been such a small one . Here in Seshego , for example , one still sees too few private business enterprises belonging to your citizens and run by them for their own benefit . One cannot , therefore , help asking if your people actually realise that in this field there are almost unlimited possibilities of advancement just waiting to be grasped by them . Has the time not come for far greater emphasis to be laid on the part your private sector has to play , particularly with a view to capital formation? The present unfavourable financial climate has , unfortunately , made it impossible to continue with major capital works at the rate necessary for the proper economic development of Lebowa . All sectors are experiencing shortages of funds , and , until the position improves , we shall simply have to accept that certain very necessary projects will either have to be slowed down or postponed . Because it is essential that our financial reserves be secured , the Government has been compelled to impose stricter fuel conservation measures , which will naturally also have an adverse effect on your economy . I have no doubt , however , that the financial and other steps taken by the Government will have the desired effect and that , within the foreseeable future , once again be possible for you to go ahead with the development of Lebowa at the rate necessary to make it a viable state within the shortest possible time . When discussing agriculture , man involuntarily gives thought that there is already a world-wide shortage of food . Scientists have estimated that , unless a considerable increase in food production is brought about , it will be impossible to feed the increasing world population by the year 2000 . Lebowa is still fortunate enough not to have been stricken by famine , but what will the position be in 15 or 20 years , if one goes by present production figures? Surveys of Lebowa's resource potential have already been made and as far as agriculture is concerned , it has been found that the agricultural production potential is high , but that it is far from being fully utilised . An efficient , scientific system of farming will have to be adopted if optimal use is to be made of the available natural resources without incurring the risk of those resources being damaged , impaired or exhausted . The existence of Lebowa's present population of 1,24-million depends on those resources , and future generations will also have to live off them . Conservation of resources is a long- term investment and is thus of national importance . It is also very clear that the accent must be on higher production and that higher production will not be possible if subsistence agriculture , a system still largely practised by your people , continues . Thi so applies to stock farming , which could be developed into one of Lwa's major assets . A livestock population of more than 500 000 largestock mits could yield an annual income of nearly R5-million , but this can oe achieved only if the traditional farming methods are abandoned .

3 Better quality stock must be bred and marketed on an economic basis . The time has passed that poor quality stock can be kept merely because it is traditional to assess a person's wealth by the number of cattle he possesses , irrespective of their quality .

There has , however , been encouraging progress during the past few years , particularly in sources like sisal and citrus cultivation and forestry , and there is a gradual increase in the revenue from these projects , which contributes much to the national economy . If the irrigation land of more than 7 000 ha is correctly utilised , it could also make a tremendous contribution . The Department of Agriculture and Forestry has an extension organisation in the field which is propagating scientific farming practices among all farmers and all tribes in Lebowa . Your Department of Agriculture and Forestry deserves your full support so that the aims of higher production , a hig.er standard of living , proper utilisation of natural resources and nature conservation will not remain a dream , but become a reality . Your Government's Department of Works is playing a leading part in the establishment of the basic infrastructure , without which there can be no development . The provision of roads , bridges , power and water are priorities , while housing and schools of all kinds are of the utmost importance to the community . These major undertakings in particular are being delayed by the shortage of funds . Special attention should be paid to ways of increasing revenue from your own resources so as to ensure that essential projects do not have to be put off indefinitely . In addition , since the take- over of health services , the Department of Works has also been responsible for the maintenance of a number of hospital buildings and for extensions and alterations at these institutions . In the field of education notable progress has been made in several respects . The number of pupils has increased from 44 000 to 484 800 and this growth has been accompanied by an increase in the number of schools , of which a further 57 namely 30 primary and 27 secondary , have been registered since your last Session . It should also be mentioned that the number of high schools has risen by 14 , and consequently there are now more than 40 high schools with more than 3 000 pupils in Form IV and more than 1 500 in Form V. Two additional training schools began to function during the year . These are the fine Dr. C.N. Phatudi School at Praktiseer and the Modjadji Training School at Modjadji , which brings the number of training schools in Lebowa to seven. It is obvious that the number of trained teachers in Lebowa will increase considerably and the number of unqualified teachers in subsidised posts is now virtually a thing of the past . The estimated increase in the number of trainee teachers in the seven training schools is 600 . This will help improve the teacher/pupil ratio . There has also been an increase in the number of trade schools . The Maake Trade School was opened in 1976. the C.S. arlow Trade School at Motetema began to function this year , and the Sir Val Duncan Trade School ill start functioning in 1978. A great need will be filled when the new Technical High School at Lebowakgomo has been built . This will be the first technical high school in Lebowa and is being built by the East Rand Bantu Affairs Administration Board .

4

The attention that adult education is beginning to enjoy merits special mention . , An Organiser of Adult Education was appointed at the end of 1975 , and since then more than 700 adults have enrolled . May this step raise the degree of literacy in Lebowa . Mr. Speaker , I should now like to say something about health services in Lebowa . On 1 April last year , health services were transferred from the Central Government to your Government . At that date , nine of the 20 hospitals situated within Lebowa's territory, as well as four welfare institutions , were placed under the control of your Department of Health . Since then , this Department has grown steadily and today there are already 14 hospitals and five welfare institutions under your control , while 116 clinics have been incorporated in the hospitalcentred comprehensive health service . A further three hospitals will be transferred to your control this year , bringing the total number of hospitals under your control to 17 and placing 5 675 hospital beds at your disposal . From the figures I have quoted , I gather that Lebowa is well placed as regards basic health facilities . I know that one of the ideals of your Department of Health is to bring services to the people , and not the reverse and that you consequently want to build more clinics and health centres . At the same time , it is a fact that this Department , with the Department of Education , is swallowing up more than 60 per cent of your total budget , and one may therefore justly ask whether it is reasonable for the economically active group to be providing the workers and the funds , while all the benefits are being reaped by the young and the aged . It is thus important that tribes and communities should take the initiative themselves and collect funds for this purpose . They will , after all , be given preference when it comes to approving the establishment of clinic services . I am particularly pleased to hear that certain communities have already made such offers and I congratulate the people of Lebowa on this devoted gesture . Mr. Speaker , I have said that health ought not to be the responsibility of your Government only . Everybody - you and I too - will one day be called to account for what we have done with our lives . Some of your sons and daughters who have qualified as doctors and nurses have chosen to settle outside Lebowa . Our call to them to come home must be loud and clear . Your Development Corporation must create opportunities for them to establish their practices here in their own birthplace and to serve their own people . Only if each one , from the ruler to the modest subject contributes their particular share , will we attain the ideal state of complete health . And then I have in mind not only the absence of disease and illness , but I refer to complete physical , mental and social well -being . This is health in the true sense of the word . So far as the Department of Justice is concerned , I understand that Lebowa has already taken over the Police Services and that negotiations are in progress for the establishment of a regional court . When this is done , you will have taken a further important step in the administration of your affairs . I also understand that special efforts are being made to replace White allocated officials with Lebowa citizens where possible . Four magistrates ' offices and one sub- office are already exclusively manned by Lebowa officials . To achieve this , all the available experienced manpower in the ranks of Magistrate , Assistant Magistrate and Principal Clerk was used , but

if one considers that only 21 out of 425 posts are still filled by White officials , that is , only four per cent , and further considers the short period in which this was achieved , it is clear that progress has been excellent . In order to continue this process of replacement , the Department of Justice is doing everything in its power to ensure that Lebowa officials are fully qualified for the higher posts . During 1976 , for example , there were 57 officials taking university courses , and a number of short courses were offered . In addition , a fixed in- service training programme is followed in every magistrate's office . It must , however , be remembered that for the higher post experience is necessary . Just as it is impossible for a recently qualified teacher to become principal of a school immediately , so also is it impossible for anyone who has just obtained legal qualifications to become a magistrate or assistant magistrate immediately . Overhasty promotion of inexperienced officials must be guarded against , since this may lead to a lowering of standards and thus to a collapse in your Government Service , which will have serious consequences for your country . Here I am, of course , not referring to the Department of Justice only, but also to your Government Service as a whole . Mr Speaker , Lebowa lies close to the biggest towns in the Northern Transvaal , namely Pietersburg , Potgietersrus , Tzaneen and Groblersdal . You are , in fact , neighbours , and , from what I am told , very good neighbours . It is gratifying to understand that this good-neighbourliness is promoted even further by regular discussions , arranged by the Commissioner- General , between the Lebowa Cabinet , the various town councils , Bantu affairs administration boards , the chambers of commerce and industries , the Afrikaanse sakekamers and the district agricultural unions . These discussions must be regarded as being of inestimable value . The development of the northern White area and Lebowa must go hand in hand . The one must not look upon the other in envy . Whether the development takes place in Lebowa or in the White area , it will always be to the benefit of the entire northern community . Your great common task is to complement and not to detract from each other and to engage in dialogue about differences should any exist . Co-operation can only lead to progress , while dispute and strife hamper progress and destroy development in almost any sphere . The circumstance of our time and our responsibility to create peaceful and prosperous living conditions for everybody , in all spheres , demand mature , dedicated leadership of Blacks as well as of Whites . Fortunately the leaders in this northern area are aware of their special mission and task , and their attitudes in their work and in their leadership are such that they pcrtend only success for the future . Here I should like to mention the fine spirit of co-operation that exists between your Cabinet , the Legislative Assembly and the Member of Parliament for Pieters ! urg . Mr Speaker , in conclusion I should like to wish you a successful and fruitful session . May God bless you in your deliberations and inspire you to wisdom and strength in the service of your people . I now declare this , the Fifth Session of the Second Lebowa Legislative Assembly , duly open .

6

MR SPEAKER His Excellency the Deputy Minister , His Excellency theo ti Commissioner-General and his wife , the Hon. the Chief Minister of Lebowal and the Cabinet, the honourable members of the Lebowa Legislative Assembly and all those who are present here , you are warmly welcomed . We are much grateful for your accepting our invitation to be with us here r today. 203 JA 1.W 18. $6 We are aware that nowadays you are ir difficulties both outside and inside the Parliamenti And it is with dedication that you are in a position to can officially open this our Legislative Assembly today . Your coming here to open this Legislative Assembly is a sign of love you have for both the Central Government and the Lebowa Government . We are assured that your Government , being the Central Government , is prepared to guide us whenever we need some guidance . You have already spoken about love and co- operation between Lebowa and your Government. Now, let me tell you that the motto of Lebowa is " Love and Peace . " We are prepared to hold this motto . I hope that you will also help us to hold our motto . ed 1 2117 95E Let me also thank all those who are invited according to their status for their availing themselves here in reply to our invitation . In our midst we have our new rector who is our pride - Prof. kgware and other dignitaries . Idade N I would also like to express my thanks to the Whites , Blacks , members of parliament , seconded officials from your Government to the Lebowa Government ; and to assure them that we work with Love and Peace . In other words , I thank the Central Government for having sent us such people to guide us . 108 20. JL DE Again , in conclusion , you must inform your Government that we in Lebowa , like peace and justice and the right government . We work energetically to support you , to discuss with you and to co-operate with you . God I orw ‫ قاء في‬151 ( help us that we co-operate.h Vory # C 57 to We are now at the end . We will rise up when our visitors go out .

DG, MOSN

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1977

:

TUESDAY

29TH MARCH .

The Sitting commences at 11h00 with a Prayer . Mr Speaker administers oaths for the three new members of the Legislative Assembly .

THE SPEAKER : We proceed to item 3. Honourable House , you will remember nat we have lost our Commissioner- General , Mr. Bezuidenhout , the Hon . Kgoši Maraba and the Hon . Kgoši H.M. Langa , and as such , we will rise up in their honour . There is yet another message from the " Lebowa Women's League " that wishes good luck and prosperity to the Legislative Assembly during the session . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker and Honourable Members of the House , I have a few messages here . The first message is rather a painful one . I have received a whe sscge that the Hon . T.P. Makola , M.P. for Sekhukhuneland has suddenly taken ill and is hospitalised in the Mandagshoek Hospital . In the circumstances , I have sent him a telegram this morning wishing him speedy recovery . This I did on behalf of the Cabinet and the Parliament . The second message is a better one . I should like to take the opportunity of welcoming the new Commissioner- General , his excellency , Dr. McLachlan . His excellency, the new Commissioner- General , I am sure is already known to you in so far as you have seen him and perhaps have spoken to him. He is succeeding the late Mr. Bezuidenhout . Dr. McLachlan is a politician and he was in charge of the Information services of the ruling party . His scholastic career have prepared his excellency for the position he occupies . Himself , is a doctor in Sociology . It is a field in which human relationships are studied politically , socially , historically , psychologically and the rest . And this particular position he occupies , the role he occupies , demands a backround knowledge of which he is an expert . We of Lebowa , therefore , are very fortunate of having a man of his scholastic career and of his experience and backround . He is of course , succeeding a very important personality as you know. We all know Dr. Eiselen , the philosopher who studied foundation of our political evolution . He was succeeded by Mr Bezuidenhout , a very experienced politician . He was a chief whip as you remember , of the Ruling Party for years and now we have Dr. McLachlan himself in charge of information services of the ruling party for years . I have no hesitation in believing that our association with the new Commissioner- General will be fruitful throughout . He is joining us no hesitation ; at a period of great changes . Changes that demand wisdom in varous situations . Not only in economic and politics ; but particularly in human relations . And therefore , we are looking forward that the new Commissioner- General will be with us in improving matters . I therefore want to emphasize how glad we are to welcome you , your excellency , Dr. McLachlan . I think those were the messages I have . Mr Speaker , Sir , thank you .

THE SPEAKER :

We are thankful .

We proceed to item 5 .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Here , Mr Speaker, Sir , and the Honourable House . there are two announcements I would like to make . The one announcement is very brief , very brief inuced . And I think you have it amongst your papers . It is a very important piece of information from the Editorial Newspaper "The Beeld" dated the 10th of March , 1977. It reads : " No , not we . " I just invite attention of the Honourable Members to read that very carefully because it is very relevant today in the affairs of this country .

The second announcement , Mr Speaker , Sir , is a very great matter . It is a very great matter and I find it difficult to put it before you . Some little while ago , the Honourable Members will remember that there was a discussion about farms to be bought for Lebowa . Amongst the farms , there were nine farms in the Nebo area. These farms were to be bought by the Central Government for Lebowa . And Lebowa decided that these farms be occupied by the people of Kgosi Mahlangu . And I remember that these events took place during the time of the late Commissioner- General , Mr Bezuidenhout . He , himself on a very important occasion when the Cabinet and other people visited Kgoši Mahlangu's area said : "these farms will be bought and will be handed over to Lebowa for occupation by Kgoši Mahlangu's people . " That is what we know . But I gathered now that the same farms are being occupied by the followers of Kgoši Mapoch . I do not say really that they are now being occupied , but they are to be occupied . The process of giving them away to Kgoŝi Mapoch is in progress . Some officials using G.G. cars were seen in that area recently and they are reported to have told certain people who were there that the farms were to be alloted to Kgoši Mapoch and that the arrangements are being made accordingly . In the circumstances , Kgoši Mahlangu and his councillors approached me to find out the true facts . I replied that I knew nothing about these changes . But I promised that I would inquire from the offices of the Commissioner General to find out whether he knew anything about those changes . I did accordingly . And he replied that he knew nothing altogether about the changes . Mr Speaker , this is a dilemma in which we find ourselves . The Cabinet feels that Pretoria is not taking us in his confidence sufficiently . How can things like that take place without our knowing? They should not , in a normal order of affairs ! They cannot reverse the promise without telling us . And now, Mr Speaker , I want to mention the fact that historically, these area has always belonged to Mahlangu's people . I have gathered from those who are very familiar with the history of this group ; Kgoši Mahlangu's group that died in trying to protect the area against foreign occupation and aggression . It was obsolutely proper and correct that when reconciliation programmes are undertaken , this particular area be handed back to them . And I have gathered that Kgoši Mapoch is not connected with it at all . He gets this sort of a thing, if he does at all , gets it as manna from Heaven . I have gathered that history has it that Kgosi Mapoch was not connected at all with this area , not at all , and if he will be given this area , it will be like , as I put it , he is getting manna from Heaven .

And we cannot as a people as a Government of Lebowa permit that sort of thing . I have gathered too that the people of Kgoši Mahlangu are quite prepared to die again for this piece of ground and because they know that it is their right ; but Kgoši Mahlangu's people and us are one and the same thing . And therefore Kgoši Mahlangu's losses are our losses ; his gains are our gains . And I think this Parliament has a duty to perform now. It will not help us to talk about this thing here without seeing what is really taking place . And I do think it is absolutely necessary to take this matter as priority . I think after the session , the parliamentarians should go to the area to investigate the area and see what is taking place , they will be able to give the Cabinet the mandate to tell Pretoria to stop promoting the cause of bloodshed .

It is my submission , Mr Speaker , Sir , with due respect , that Pretoria must now know how we feel as a Parliament . This is the time when we must keep together and not divide ourselves . And Pretoria must have no allusions about our intentions . And I want to place this whole Parliament in a very strong position to make submissions to Pretoria . And we cannot have that position , that strong position unless we have inspected the place in loco ourselves . Let me take the liberty on these circumstances to add the following information which is very crucial as far as I am concerned . I want briefly to state this case . I will elaborate on the case when I deliver my policy speech . It is common knowledge I think on the part of the parliamentarians that Kgošigadi Kekana of the Ndebele group in Hammanskraal have approached this Government with the request that they want to become part and parcel of Lebowa and that this Government has without hesitation accepted the request . The circumstances and the conditions of the difficulties with the Bophuthatswana Government I will not go into at the moment . But the point is that on the 15th March , Kgošigadi Kekana and her councillors had a very formal meeting here in Seshego in the presence of the new Commissioner-General and the Cabinet and other officials to discuss their cessation and their coming into Lebowa. She raised two points : One : "Pretoria told her : if you go to Lebowa , go , lock stock barrel , you leave everything here . " Two : " If you go away from the Bophuthatswana Government and you are going to join the Ndebele group , then it is alright we will talk . " The Honourable Members will realise what Pretoria is doing behind our backs . They are dividing us and ruling us . They are bend in going against our best aspirations . And if you now see what is taking place at Kgoši Mahlangu and you link it up with what I have said about Kgošigadi Kekana and her people , then you will see that there is a strategy . And therefore , we cannot stand and stare at circumstances . I want to add one more information ; Mr Speaker , with your permission . Kgoši Mathebe and his group have a special problem with their relations with the Mapoch's people . I think it would pay this House a dividence if they -- upon going to see things for themselves , it would be possible too to cover the area of Kgoši Mathebe . Because you would be in a very strong position to speak your minds , to speak out on this subject . And to represent the interests of Lebowa without fear . Having said so , Mr. Speaker , Sir, I feel compelled to propose an unopposed motion that this House adjourns immediately and must be on the way to the troubled spots . Mr. Speaker .

May I crave your indulgence , Mr. Speaker , about transport . I have expected the Minister of Economic Affairs to make the necessary arrangements ; but I gathered that there will be buses for the members of Parliament ready to take them off . As I feel , it must be immediate . I must also just add that the Minister of Agriculture and the Secretary of Agriculture should be attending because they know the area very well . The Secretary of my Department must be present and with due respect , may I extend my invitation to his Excellency the Commissioner- General , Dr. McLachlan to be present himself . And I think any other - I do not any other official who will be useful to the entourage know very much the Parliamentary entourage should be present . I only regret one - I have only one more regret , Mr. Speaker , I do not know what these members will eat . THE HOUSE :

Never mind about food !!!!!!

THE CHIEF MINISTER : I am very glad they are prepared to suffer hunger today, Mr Speaker , Sir !

10

THE SPEAKER :

The House will adjourn until tomorrow at 10h00 .

HOUSE

ADJOURNS.

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1977 :

WEDNESDAY , THE 30TH MARCH .

The Sitting commences at 10h30 and the Speaker opens with a Prayer . THE SPEAKER : We proceed to item 3 ; item 4 ; item 5 and 6. You will pardon ine Honourable Members . Yesterday we mentioned , on item three , three names of the late members of this Parliament ; and were a bit confused and as such we forgot the name of the late Kgoši Moepadira Mphahlele . The House will rise up in his honour for some few minutes . MR S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr Speaker , I move that the minutes of yesterday be adopted as a true record . MR L.C. MOTHIBA:

THE SPEAKER :

I second him , Mr Speaker .

Items 5 , 6 and 7.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker and Honourable members , let me take the opportunity of thanking the Departments of the Interior and the Department of Works for the arrangements they made yesterday . I must also thank the Honourable Members of the House for visiting the Mahlangu area . I should think it is advisable , Mr Speaker , to discuss the position at Kgosi Mahlangu's area. It is said that out of the nine farms , eight farms are already sold . The last one is to be bought . When the Central Government has fulfilled its promise , those farms are to be bought for Lebowa Government and they must be handed over to Lebowa . I should think it is important that the House should air its views on this issue . I must repeat , Mr Speaker , that the land issue nowadays is very important . The boundary question is also very important . I will , at a later stage concern myself with our boundaries and the boundaries of Gazankulu . Presently we must be energetic enough to request the Central Government to complete its promises concerning the nine farms . Mr Speaker I must stress that the Mahlangu - Mapoch issue has some relations with the Mandebele issue . That touches Lebowa very much . I was surprised , Mr Speaker , when reading the minutes of the Mandebele Regional Authority , that there was Mr J.S. Kekana who was supposed to summons a meeting when the Mandebele were to meet Dr. Bothma and Mr. Serfontein . I take it that the meeting was out of order because the Magoši that were invited belong to Lebowa and Pretoria , without any reference to Lebowa , without any consultation with Lebowa , is calling a meeting . It is common decency Mr Speaker, that Lebowa Government should have been consulted and represented in that meeting . And this is a sort of thing which we discovered yesterday ; that people from Pretoria going into Kgoši Mahlangu's area and talking to people there without any reference to Lebowa . I feel that the Honourable House should give a clear mandate to the Cabinet here to handle the matter with the necessary speed . I think that since his excellency the Commissioner- General was with us yesterday on the visit to kgoši Mahlangu's country, it would be important for us to hear his comments on the matter . With your permission , Mr Speaker , Sir, I would crave for the indulgence of his excellency the Commissioner- General to comment on the situation . Perhaps he now knows something about the situation . It may be that Pretoria has already told him something . And that would be of very great interest to us .

Now, dr Speaker , Sir , I am leaving this question of Kgoši Mahlangu . I will have to deal with it in other items afterwards , Mr Speaker , Sir!

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THE COMMISSIONER - GENERAL : Mr Speaker, the Chief Minister requested me the previous Monday , to embark on the question of the nine farms . I could not manage to go into the matter because I was busy with another engagement ; and as such , I told the Chief Minister that I could not continue with the issue before Friday . The previous Monday I was with the Deputy Minister and held me busy the whole day . I did not know before that it would be the procedure to go to the places and see for yourselves yesterday morning . Otherwise , I could have phoned my Minister before you started yesterday morning , Mr Speaker . But after the House has adjourned , I got the message from the Deputy Minister in Cape Town and I conveyed the message to the Chief Minister and the members of the Cabinet when we arrived at the place where we went yesterday . The message , Mr Speaker , is that the Cabinet of the Central Government and the Minister have no decision to hand over the farms to Mapoch and his people . What actually happens is that Mapoch has many cattle that need more grazing land and he requested that those farms be leased to him to rescue his cattle . The application is with the Minister Mr. M.C. Botha , but he has not decided what to do . I therefore understand that there is no decision to hand over or lease those farms to Mapoch . I hope to get more particulars and when I get them , I shall give them to the Chief Minister and he will put them before the Cabinet . Thank you ! MR E.M. MALOMA : Mr Speaker , I thank you . Following what was said by his excellency, the Commissioner- General , and also according to our view those farms at Kgoši Mahlangu can cover an area of between thirteen and fourteen thousand morgan . In that way , I do not think the Central Government should lease those farms to Kgoši Mapoch whilst we have such a large population around Nebo District . Mr. Speaker , it is quite proper that the Central Government hand over those farms to us because we have many cattle which are supposed to graze on them . Mr Speaker , the thirteen thousand morgan area can allow grazing for over one thousand , five hundred head of cattle . So that , if the Mapoch people have to occupy those farms , they have to travel over a hundred miles distance to Kgosi Mahlangu's area . The stock that is in the Nebo area is so large that it does not permit the lease of the farms to the Kgoši Mapoch's people .

KGO I M.B. MALATJI : I thank you , Mr Speaker . We were present yesterday ; we have seen and we were also shown how things run there . I wish to speak on what was said by the Commissioner - General . I want to give him the history of Lebowa and that of the Central Government . On many occasions has the Central Government done this . People were told that things were on temporary basis ; but at last you find them to be permanent . I would like to inform the Commissioner- General that by leasing that land , Lebowa is going to be the loser . And he must also know that some humble beginnings turn to be dangerous . It also means that by leasing the grazing land to the Mapoch, he must also go and stay there . The Commissioner- General should realise that we vehemently refuse that those farms be leased to the Mapoch group . Pretoria applied the same tactics in order to take my land from me . People were brought to my land and were said to pay allegiance to my area of jurisdiction , but later those people took my land . After all these happenings , I could realise that humble beginnings have detremental ends . I must now stress the point that the Honourable Minister M.C. Botha has taken my land . And my people are scattered because of lack of land .

13 15

That is what I visualise will happen at Kgoši Mahlangu's land . They persuade that Kgoši Mahlangu should go and stay at MapochLs place . I say this because we discussed this in Pretoria . Now , Mr Speaker , I appeal to the Commissioner General to explain to Pretoria that we hate their organisation . We will not allow Kgoši Mahlangu to join Kgoši Mapoch . They have heard Kgoši Mahlangu explaining the period he stayed in that area ; and still he complains about lack of agricultural land and where to can stay . It will be painful to give those farms to Mapoch when the Mahlangu's are suffering so greatly. Now, Mr Speaker , we do agree that that land should be given to Lebowa and nothing more . Thank you , Mr Speaker . MR S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr Speaker , there is an Afrikaans expression that states : "Belofte maak skuld . " But I am becoming worried about Pretoria's promise because it seems to fade away . We always speak of human relation ; but it appears this is now becoming old - an old arrangement . It has created the problem between Kgoši Mahlangu and Kgoši Mapoch as well as between Lebowa and the Central Government . We can retain good relationship if we can fulfill the promises we made . The outside world is looking at us ; and consider us to be the puppets and stooges of the Central Government . To be simple , we are sell - outs . Mr Speaker , I should have had some dialogue with the Central Government . Our usual procedure is that we put the matter to the Cabinet and from the Cabinet to the Commissioner- General and ultimately to the Department of Bantu Administration and Development . The Central Government should have consulted Lebowa through the Lebowa Cabinet . It matters not very much whether the farms were to be hired by Mapoch , the Central Government should have consulted Lebowa . Mr Speaker , Mr Maloma has told this Legislative Assembly that there is an excessive over- grazing . So , those farms could be utilized for our live** stock . The Central Government should stop improper interference . MR H.M. LESHABANE : Mr Speaker , it is high time that the Central Government should realise our needs . And the Central Government wants to work according to the wishes of the people . This is an old promise from his excellency, Mr. M.C. Botha . And I am thankful that the Commissioner- General has explained it better . The Commissioner- General should inform Pretoria that the Lebowa Legislative Assembly is tired of such behaviour . They want to divide us into groups and they enjoy that . Mr Bothma and other people should forget interfering in our affairs . The available money that is there , is meant to buy farms for us ; not to divide and rule us . I want to know whether the Bantu Trust Account is made to make us suffer or to help us . Farms are bought and placed under the auspices of the Chief Bantu Affairs Commissioner of Northern iransvaal . I thought the term of the Chief Bantu Affairs Commissioner is over . The office must be closed because we are no more Bantus , but Lebowa .

I am appealing to Pretoria to close the offices of the Chief Bantu Affairs Commissioner . Those offices waste our money . When the Central Government past the Bantu Trust Fund Act , it was meant to develop the Blacks not to destroy them . Mr Speaker , I thank you very much . May-be I am hurting you too . So , I will have to apologize . I was trying to motivate my case so that the people who take this message must understand what I am trying to say . Take the Machaka-Manthata affair. The Central Government withdrew our money from the Bantu Trust Fund to buy land for Manthata-

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thus dividing my constituency and Lebowa as a whole . It must be noted that our government is that of love and peace and I do not know how we can operate under Love and Peace when things are so bad . We thought that within the five years they could have understood this .

Mr Chief Minister and the Cabinet , I would like to give you some homework to do . Go and tell the Central Government to fulfil its promise . If they want to come to Lebowa , they must follow the protocol . We will co-operate with them. In fact , all offices which fall under the Bantu Affairs Commissioner must be handed over to us . Thank you , Mr Speaker . MR M.W. KGATLA : Mr Speaker , Sir , do you think that if other people can occupy those farms , are they going to live peacefully? Is it the question of hiring the farms? When we left Kgoši Mahlangu's royal kraal , going down the stream towards the Litsi Mountain , you have seen a considerable number of houses . That is a village ; and I asked Kgoši Mahlangu whether he knew something about that . He told me that he has settled his people on the grazing ground with the hope that they were to be given the nine farms and remove those people to the right place after the land has been planned . So that , any thinking person can realise that Pretoria is beating about the bush . They know that they have allotted the farms to Kgoši Mapoch . Through you , Mr Speaker , I want to ask this question to Pretoria , channeling it through the Commissioner General . I am tired of asking this question and I need a clear reply . What causes the delay in handing over the South African Trust Farms to Lebowa yet the main aim of purchasing all these farms from the Europeans is the consolidation of Lebowa? It is one of those things which made it very difficult for Lebowa to decide whether they can accept independence or not because they cannot accept independence without the proper boundaries , without enough land for the people of Lebowa ; and they be as conjested as they are presently . There are bought farms nearby every constituency ; but we are told that these farms belong to the Chief Bantu Affairs Commissioner for the trust of Lebowa . To give an example , Devonia down in Bochum . They cannot tell me that they can allot this farm to the Vendas , Mapoch or Kgoši Mangope one day - the farm is right in Lebowa . Through you Mr Speaker , to the Chief Minister , this is going to be much provoking . Is it not that we do not know which lands we want? If we say our area starts from Limpopo to the Vaal Rivers , the question whether Pretoria understands is irrelevant to us . Pretoria keeps on saying that these people want land ; but they do not specify . It is in this sitting that I am asking that we must explain it out correctly what we want and they must understand us once and for all . And if we have to demand districts , we must demand districts with their contents 12 . farms , the town etc.etc . So that Pretoria can be very sure of what we want . And as such , they can be sure of our needs and give us the reason . Year in and year out , we talk about land and boundaries - meaning that the lard should be consolidated into Lebowa ; but we fail to explain which land and boundaries . Pretoria gives land to different people like Kgosi Mapoch etc. Thank you , Mr Speaker!

15

MR A.S. MAHLANGU: Mr Speaker , thank you for having given me the opportunity to hint on some issues . I am mostly concerned about the nine farms which are at Kgosi Mahlangu's land . We have been looking on as all this was happening ; but we the Lebowa Government and the Cabinet knew about this happenings . I am now convinced that they do not know anything of that sort . I consulted the Chief Minister , Dr. Phatudi and he told me he did not know. He said that he did not know whether the farms are bought for Lebowa . He proposed that we should consult the Commissioner- General in connection with these nine farms . The Commissioner- General replied to say that he does not know anything as a new man here . But we suggested his predecessor knew that he consults the files for information because about the affairs . I have the minutes because the Chief Minister came there with Mr Bezuidenhout . I still have the minutes when the Hon . M.C. Botha was speaking from that platform . He mentioned that the nine farms will be bought and given to Lebowa . Now, why should he give them to Kgosi Mapoch? when Mr Botha was speaking about those farms .

We were in this very House

We always hoped that the farms are ours . What worried me yesterday was when the Commissioner- general asked whether we once asked that those farms should be used by us for grazing . We knew that the farms were to be given to Lebowa for settlement of our people . At Mathulastan and Goedgedagte where Kgosi Mahlangu stays there are nine thousand people who are waiting for those farms . You must listen properly and understand me . We have realised that Pretoria does not want people to live peacefully; that is why they brought Kgoši Mapoch there . They sympathise with the cattle of Kgoši Mapoch instead of the people of Kgoši Mahlangu . On those nine farms Mahlangu's followers are seven thousand . At Eenslagte there are fifty just where we were yesterday . And Mahlangu's followers three houses cannot be accommodated on those nine farms . Mr Speaker , I want to tell you that the Mahlangu people are prepared to go to prison . Mr Speaker , all the people at Mathulastan and Vlakfontein are going to be removed by us to settle on those nine farms . Then came the Magistrates from Groblersdal Messrs . Stoltz and Pieterse to ask why the people were settled there . We know the source of all these things .

-

When those farms are bought , they are put under the care who is stationed at Pietersburg . Mr Stoltz will not act Mr Pietersen's . We see miracles this side . Do you know act when he is angry? Mr Stoltz and Mr Pietersen should cannons to destroy us .

of Mr Pietersen before consulting how does a Ndebele come with their

Mr Speaker, I want to tell you that we will not affiliate to Mapoch and be his subjects . I will tell you the Mandebele history . Since 1882 or 1883 Kgoši Nyabela and Kgoši Mampuru were imprisoned at Pretoria . When Kgoši Nyabela was still in prison and Kgoši Jafta Mahlangu took over , what happened? The two imprisoned dikgoši were executed in Pretoria and Jafta continued until today . The Mapoch people had fled the country being afraid of the 1883 battle ; but today they come to say they are the paramount chiefs . What is that ! Mapoch will not be given that land ; you must understand me properly . You have built towns like Stofberg and Middelburg on my land and I never fought you . And the language I am speaking is Afrikaans ; but when all the whites have left , you do not want to bring back our land . We know from long that the Mapoch people left Pretoria for Delmas . From

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Delmas they went to where they are presently settled . We see two bulls , one this side of the river and another the other side . Why should Jafta now be interrupted? Now they want us to be engulfed by the Mapoch tribe . This will not happen . We will not go to Mapoch even if he dies . Many of our Magoši have died and they never attended the burials . By making them cross the Olifants River into our land , Pretoria has caused trouble . In the news paper it is mentioned that Mapoch must occupy the area around Hammanskraaf , Potgietersrus and Lydenburg . This is unfair to us . We refuse that this man be given grazing land in our area of jurisdiction . I am a resident of Nebo district . These people must come politely to me and ask for a grazing land ; and because we are neighbours I will help them whenever possible . We are caused to quarrel by one man who is not our neighbour . We are suffering hunger just like our cattle . The Mahlangu's people do not allow Mapoch's people to come into their land to graze their cattle . Week after next , I am going home to make arrangements to settle my people there . I am not worried whether they will imprison me or not . I know that this problem is created by the Central Government . The Central Government favours the Mapoch tribe more than the Mahlangu tribe . We hate the Mapoch tribe ; and as such we are going to settle our people in that land . They promised us that land during the rule of Kgoši Ponny Mahlangu . I know the difficulties there . I propose that the Magoši of Lebowa should combine in order to fight against Mapoch . They will not take us a long time . MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Thank you , Mr Speaker . We are handling a complicated issue . We were supposed to treat this matter carefully ; but because of its seriousness , we are compelled to work on it carelessly . We think the Central Government is a Christian Government . And a Christian is a christian indeed not theoretically . A christian knows that he must not speak lies . Since the Central Government is a christian , it has not lied to us . The Bible informs every christian that he must not make vain promises . Here the Central Government is making two promises and we do not know whether it will fulfil them both . It promises at the same time the nine farms to Lebowa as well as to Mapoch . And it does not want Mapoch to affiliate into Lebowa . The second trick is being put into practice now. To force a brother to kill another brother . And also to cause the tribal clashes . On the verge of We heard over the radio that a meeting was to bloodshed they keep quiet . be held at Mashashane . And I know that if that meeting was against the wishes of the Central Government , it would not be held . It must have been approved by the Central Government . The Honourable Mr Mahlangu referred to a newspaper report which gives Mapoch a triangle . In the North it is Potgietersrus in the area of Kgoši D. Langa ; and Kgosigadi Mashashane . On the West it is Kgošigadi Kekana who does not want to hear a thing about Mapoch and she wants to affiliate to Lebowa . And how does the government mouthpiece , this " Transvaler" say to us today? This is the paper , the mouthpiece of the Nationalist Government . This paper cannot tell us things that are not there . On the East is Lydenburg . Whom does Lydenburg envelop . Is it not Kgosi Mahlangu? Now who gives this map? Who gives the territory to Kgosi Mapoch if not the Central Government? I should think we have to think more about those happenings because the Honourable Mr Speaker promise Mr Cruywagen that we will always trust one another . We will work properly with love and peace ; but it appears that the Central Government does not understand that . The honourable House

17

17

will remember that the Whites are the people who are by nature not the same nation in South Africa . The Afrikaner is a son of this soil . The Hollanders come from the Netherlands in Europe . The English and Scots come from the United Kingdom . The Americans come from America , Australians come from Australia but their slogan is one " Unity is Strength . " Unite against the Blacks . Are they now saying unity is to unite in order to break, dismantle , disintergrate and scatter the Black nation? For every type of help we always go to the Central government . And the Central Government makes promises vain promises . And because we are the people of love and peace , we believe in what they tell us . But the answer is a slap in the face . They slap us and tell us that communists are very bad we must hate and kill them and destroy communism .. After telling us they slap us in the face . I have never met a communist and I do not know what communism is . But because I have been trusting the Central Government I do not like communism . And now the question comes if the Central Government does not want to listen to me when I want help where does it expect me to go to? Necessity knows no law. If you are having food and I request you to give me a share and you refuse , I will try somewhere for any other type of food . So , I am appealing to the Central Government to listen to us . Otherwise they drive us away from them . If you are a poultry farmer , and the fowls give you trouble , you have to do something about them . The solution is that you put them all in a small foulrun so that they can be conjested and the result will be that they will kill one another . They will all have suffered and beg for symphathy from you . It is painful to realise how the Central Government wants to destroy the black nation . The offices in Pretoria were dealing with the matters in connection with the Kekana tribe at Hammanskraal . Now when Kekana want to come back to his offices , they refuse . They invite Mangope to trouble her by instructing her to speak the language she does not want . They know that if Kekana and Mangope fight , Langa , Mapela , Mashashane , Sekhukhune and Maleboho shall not remain . Every one will be engaged . We must be aware that they want us to finish one another and they remain with the land . One Honourable Member wanted to know why they ignore the Cabinet . There are men called Messrs . Serfontein , Grobler and Bothma . When they request your Cabinet to do something and it refuses , they tell you that they are going to do it by force ; whether it likes or not . They acted by force already . We told them that the Ramokgopa and Manthata tribes are not supposed to leave that area . But they told us that they will leave by force . We tried to convince them that Lebowa prefers that both Black and White should stay together around Sekgosese . The area is rich with minerals . They know they are educated enough to can mine the minerals and they resort to removing our people by force . They have removed the Manthatas to the area belonging to Maleboho and Moloto . They are causing trouble by doing so . The Central Government has reached its goal . Now it is for Lebowa to chase them away ; and if it does like wise , there is going to be bloodshed . Who Christian . started this? The very Central Government that claim that it is We are in a difficulty because the Central Government uses our Radio Bantu to oppose us . I have been first consulted by Radio Bantu when it was trying to find out whether the removal of the Manthatas to where they are would not be dangerous . Why do not they consult the Cabinet first?

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Let me not go further , I know that Radio Bantu is the mouthpiece of the Central Government . They say the Mapoch people will use land for grazing ; which is difficult . Do you think you can take out the bone which you have put in the mouth of a dog? The Central Government is making us infants . Do you think Mapoch with his fat cattle can give way to the dying people? Please give us the mandate to approach Pretoria on this issue . We have been promised the Zebediela Estate . But since Mapoch was promised the Potgietersrus district , it means we will not have Zebediela any longer. It now rests on the decision of the Assembly; it must give the channel to the Cabinet so that it may put the matter to Pretoria . We learn that on the 7th people will be holding a meeting at Mashashane . This is done without the knowledge of kgošigadi . We heard that through the mouth-piece of the central Government which is Radio Bantu . The Lebowa Government knows nothing of this sort . Mr Bothma and his collegues know that they are going to hold a meeting at Potgietersrus . Kgoši Kekana , who is the owner of the land does not know anything about the meeting . They have told Radio Bantu that they are going to hold a meeting without the knowledge of the magoši there . You will notice that Cape Town and Pretoria have mixed up issues ; problem is who is going to solve that?

now the

MINISTER OF WORKS : Mr Speaker and the Honourable House . It appears if we can continue discussing the land question , some of us will be maddened . We must see once . We must not every time during the Parliament hire buses to go and see misery created by Pretoria . We have experienced through the Nkoane and Nchabeleng tribes . They have destroyed each other's houses because of Pretoria . The same problem arises with the Mahlangu's nine farms . be hired? Any one who has a From whom must these farms reply can help me because this matter is giving a headache . These nine farms have to be given to Lebowa ; but on the other hand they are leased to Mapoch . Who is leasing them? Was the person promised by the late Commissioner- General consulted ? The Whites are definitely causing friction amongst us .. We must not allow this people to interfere in this matter . What about the dam? Have they not handed it over to Mapoch? The late made many Commissioner-General has promised Kgoši Mahlangu that dam . He also promises in connection with the construction of tared- roads and bridges at several places in Lebowa ; as well as the money to be paid by the Central I have promised Kgoši Moloto that Government to cover the expenditure . the road from Tseke Mabooe Trade School to Gilead will be tarred by my Department . In Phalaborwa , they buy the land and give them to Gazankulu . We are representing people ; but the manner in which things happen , they start to doubt whether we are doing the proper thing. We should stop these discussions ; but the main problem is : Who leases these farms? Why does he not consult Kgoši Mahlangu? Is it because the former Commissioner- General is iate? I should think these people are tricking us by saying we must work together . If these people want to abolish the existence of Lebowa , let them tell us . Or , are we to keep quiet because this is done by a white person? They have cut Lebowa on the sides of Swazis , Ndebele and Gazankulu . Let us not hope for anything from the Central Government .

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CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker and Honourable Members , I am more than pleased and most grateful to the contributions from the Honourable Members in this regard . To me the matter is very simple . Head Office says Mapoch is applying for grazing . We were yesterday on the spot and we were told that Kgosi Mapoch was himself there and told the people that he is taking our land . officials from the central Government using G.G. vehicles were there . Seven in number . And they told their own story there . And therefore we conclude , Mapoch knows what he is talking about because Kgoši Mapoch is always with Dr. Bothma , Mr Serfontein and the rest . His Excellency Sir , it is quite clear to all of us that head office is not telling us about the people who went there with the G.G. vehicles . They are White officials who went there in G.G. vehicles and head office is not accounting at all for the visit by Mapoch . It is miles away where Mapoch is , where he was to go and kill beasts . He told people to collect wood and killed the beasts to feast and celebrate because he is taking over the land . And now your Excellency , this that Mapoch will not get that immediate action through your wishes and the aspirations of

House has given the mandate to the Cabinet place . And we are going to take the kind offices to acquaint Pretoria with the the people of Lebowa .

I want to emphasize that the tempers went up high as everybody has noticed but with good reasons . I want to emphasize that all that has been said here strongly is not just hot air , is not just blowing the steam . I know this Legislative Assembly somewhat intimately ; since I have been here in 1969 and it should be understood that this House means what it says . They do not want bloodshed unless Head office wants bloodshed . And please convey to the Head Office immediately the message that we do not want Mapoch there . May I add with due respect that this Legislative Assembly holds the Head Office responsible for all the promises that they have made to us . Your Excellency Sir , with all the sincerity , can the Central Government send you in our midst and you work with us and we come to certain promises and in your capacity , you make these pronouncements and that will not be repeated . I am saying that because the promises that we have made with your predecessor , the Hon . Mr Bezuidenhout , were made in his capacity as our CommissionerGeneral and he knew what he was talking about . Now if the promises you made to us are not worth the paper on which they are , the words with which you utter them , while we are here . Why are you there Sir? As I said , I don't want to repeat what has been said here . I am satisfied that this Parliament is expecting that the Cabinet must take immediate action to ask Pretoria to tell Mapoch to keep out of the farm . Mr Speaker , do you know that we Blacks never kept slaves ? Do you know that the people who kept slaves are amongst us? And these are the people my collegues is refering to them as Christians . We want to challenge them that we have a heart and we have humanity . And they have to prove that it was not a mistake that they had slavery . And now I do not know whether we have got to take them seriously . God has created us all . And we demand that we are human beings all . We are prepared to have human relations that are absolutely human . And we do not want the kind of treatments which we see from some of the officials from Head office . They have not repented yet . They are like those slave - drivers . and we will not tolerate that . And now, Mr Speaker , Sir , to round off Head office problem . I have here a letter .

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Your Excellency , you will find a surprise in this letter . But it will indicate to you the dangerous times in which you and I move . And I can only ask you and the Legislative Assembly that God in his greatness , must match us with these times . This letter is signed by a one Molomo . He is from Pretoria . The Amandebele National Organisation , 3563 Block L. Mamelodi , Pretoria , dated the 7/3. It is addressed to the Hon . Chief and tribal councillors . It reads as follows : " Dear Sirs , you are cordially invited to attend a meeting which has been organised by the above -mentioned organisation . It will be held at the Mokopane Training Institution School Hall at 9 a.m. on the 7/4/77 . The purpose of the meeting is to consolidate our national identity primarily to establish our own national government . We have arranged that the hon . "Commissioner General of Lebowa preside at this meeting . "Agenda on the way . Thanking you in anticipation . "Yours obediently , William Lesiba Molomo (Chairman ) " . So , your Excellency , you can see how far your offices are implicated . It is just to point out perhaps to the events that are to follow . But I know you are capable of handling the situation .. Mr Speaker , Sir , give me two minutes ; I just want to round of . I am becoming more and more convinced that the Honourable House should know more of their own country . Our problems are boundaries and associations not only with the Mandebele group in Lebowa . We have a thorny problem in the East . Sekgosese , Bolobedu , Naphuno , Mapulaneng and Phalaborwa . It was a very intricate and perplexing situation when we decided - we in Lebowa - suggested we can only bring the people into the show by having a commission of inquiry that is not partial . Pretoria accepted this as a very intelligent approach to the problem that was otherwise a defying solution . Gazankulu was very unhappy . They tried to refuse but we insisted successfully . A commission was appointed under the chairmanship of Mr Uys . And now the commission is plunging its facts , it is not functioning properly . There are delaying tactics . In the meantime , our people in these areas I have mentioned are absolutely flabbergasted . I would like this House sometime to go there . You should see your country and your people . I feel you have got to discuss this question of Gazankulu fully . In that way, you have to defend your country in the same way as you have instructed the Cabinet to move in a certain direction . I would like to get a further mandate to handle that thorny situation . I think you will find a beautiful country . You cannot give that country away. The delaying tactics of Pretoria must be looked at with contempt it deserves . But to appreciate the situation you should go and see the area in loco . Mr Speaker , Sir , I have indicated that I think it will be proper for this House to plan another visit ; even if it cost two days it does not matter . It is far more important for us to keep what we have than to lose it by talking here . Mr Speaker , Sir ! THE SPEAKER : Honourable House , before we adjourned for lunch we have stated that we shall afford the Hon . P.L. Kekana to say something about the issue .

MR P.L. KEKANA : Mr Speaker and Honourable Members , before I can proceed I would point out that my kgoši has requested that he takes the floor before I can proceed .

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KGOŠI A.B. KEKANA : Mr Speaker and Honourable Members . What has been discussed here , that the meeting is going to be held at my area , I do not want to hear anything about that because those people are giving trouble and I therefore refuse vehemently . MR P.L. KEKANA : As you have just heard from the letter which has been read before you , I also agree with the House because there is some form of disrespect involved . It is quite improper and unfounded for a kgoši to hear over the radio that there is a meeting to be held at his place without his knowledge . Now, through you , Mr Speaker , I would make an appeal to his excellency the Commissioner- General whether he knows about the meeting over which he is to preside . He should tell us now about the meeting because the people concerned and Regional Authority do not know anything . All the ten magoši of Mokerong know nothing of the meeting , but Mr Molomo alone knows . If he does not know about this , I will request him to call Mr Molomo . He must come next week Wednesday to come and apologise like somebody who once did like wise. If this is not done , we will know that the Commissioner- General works with that group . I know Mr Molomo to be in prison . I do not know whether he was released on parole because he is working with important people . I will be pleased if Mr Molomo can be called here to explain the situation . And he should tell us the kgoši with which he made arrangments . Mr Speaker ! COMMISSIONER- GENERAL : Mr Speaker , Sir , with your permission , I want to put one thing clear . I have received the letter from the Amandebele organisation in which they asked me to preside at that meeting mentioned in the letter read by the Chief Minister . My reply to them in writing last week , Mr Speaker , was that I will not be available to preside over that meeting . Thank you , Mr Speaker!

KGOŠI D.M. LANGA : Honourable Members , I am still a new man in this Assembly as you have seen me yesterday taking an oath . Truely the letter arrived . I read the letter to the tribal authority and to the councillors . I felt relieved when the Chief Minister read this letter on Friday . My request to this House is whether we are allowed to attend the meeting . What you must know is that we Mandebele are recruited to form our homeland . We do not agree to this . I disagreed with this while I was still in Johannesburg . The Lebowa Government is working for us . The devil we know is better than the one we do not know . The Department of Works has constructed roads for us . Thank you , Mr Speaker ! KGOŠI P.M. LEDWABA : Thank you , Mr Speaker , for the opportunity . I will not elaborate much . This is not a recent matter . This matter does not differ from that of Mahlangu because we do not know its formulater . This man comes from Mamelodi . He once approached me and I chased him away . He wrote the names of my councillors against my wish . I do not know his sender and I do not know a person who gave him my names . I asked him to come with his kgoši so that we talk . I do not know whether Kgoši Mahlangu has received the same letter . Those people are working with somebody who is a crook . We are surprised by their knowing the Commissioner - General although he has just arrived . I did not believe that he has received the letter . I thought they were threatening when they said the Commissioner-General would be present . This Assembly would not agree with me when I say I have already spoken with the Prime Minister because that would be tricky . I thank you , Mr Speaker .

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KGOŠI S. SHONGOANE : I thank you , Mr Speaker . I believe that this is an old story . I met this in the Mokerong regional authority . What pleases me is that it has been brought to this House . Does this Molomo have his tribe? Is he sent by the Magoši of Mokerong? Molomo should forget this matter because it causes friction amongst the tribes . On the twenty fourth when we were at the regional authority meeting , one kgoši said that he will write a letter to those who are Mandebele magoši . According to the information , our names appear when they make consultations with Pretoria ; but without our knowledge . I have not received the letter because I am a Ndebele ; but we agreed in our meeting that we are all Mandebele . I never had any contact with this issue since its beginning . If things are going to be in this fashion then we are not building our government . The only best way to solve this is to call Molomo to come here . In 1910 the Transvaal , 0.F.S. , Natal and the Cape were different self- governing countries , but ultimately they formed the union . What stops us from doing like wise? KGOŠI P. TAUEATSOALA: Mr Speaker and honourable Members , thank you . Mr Molomo's matter started in the 1960s and it had its representatives in the 1970s . This was introduced on 28/2/76 by one man from the Mandebele - aMoletlane . But we as new members stood aloof. We found that it started from the top instead of from the lowest point . It should have been first discussed by the regional authority , before it could be carried to Mr Botha . We thought it was over but it only started again on 26/2/77 . I have seen the letter from the State President that if the Mandebele could organise themselves they could have their territorial authority . My only question was : where do the Mandebele come from? Are they not with the Basotho where they are? The reply was that the land belongs to the Mandebele and the Basotho who want self government will go to Lesotho . My request is that this person should come and speak to the magoši of Mokerong to inform them where he got the mandate to write the letters to the magoši . There are white people in this matter ; but they have painted themselves black . I know that a black man knows politics ; but I am not sure whether a white man does . This man , Molomo , must not lead our people astray because he is working with a white man . MR S.M. DIGASHU : I thank you Mr Speaker . Why is Mr Molomo not bringing this matter through his kgoši ? I heard My Kgoši say that the old devil betters the new one . And again a woman marries the man of her choice . I once advised people who came with this idea . I said they should start at the tribal authority meeting . From there it should be handed over to the tribe and later to the regional authority . At this moment nobody can say that his tribe concents to that or not .

Mr Speaker , you have heard that the tribes know nothing about this issue . We would not like to proceed with the things we do not know . Molomo's matter has turned to be a thorn in the Mandebele tribes . Mr Speaker , we want progress . Such things are delaying us . Mr Speaker , I conclude by saying let the Mandebele magośi call on Mr Molomo so that he can explain everything in details . Thank you! THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr Speaker , Mr Molomo comes from Mashashane in the Seshego constituency . He belongs to Kgošigadi Mashasnane ; but he is turning to be her enemy . I gather he should come and explain to the magoši while in the meantime he has expelled the gošigadi from her tribe . You have heard that Molomo was in prison and he is released . It is said that he is released on parole to come and sum-up this matter . I can believe what he

23 23 is saying because he has a letter from the State President giving him the mandate to break away from Lebowa . A flower that does not parish has a green branch . You can cut it ; but it will continue bearing others . This means that Mr Molomo has a backround . I learned that the whites in Mokerong are taking very active actions to have this done . I will repeat , I have heard in this House today that some white official of this government are very active in this very aspect . Allow me Honourable Members to give you the actions of Mr Molomo at my place . It is long that Mr Molomo was writing letters as chairman of the Mandebele I still remember in the 1974's , I visited Kgošigadi Mashashane and she gave me the letter from Mr Molomo and I in turn gave it to the Chief Minister . This letter informed the Kgošigadi about a meeting which was to be held at her place on a Good Friday . The purpose of that meeting was to ask the Kgosigadi to sign a letter of withdrawal from Lebowa . Kgošigadi was to be blamed for not signing the letter of withdrawal from the Lebowa . That is the main fault for which the kgošigadi was to be blamed . The Kgošigadi has reported the matter at the magistrate's offices but without help . At a later stage the Kgošigadi received a letter to the effect that a celebration is to be made on 27/12/76 because she had signed a letter of withdrawal from Lebowa , and join the Mandebele . The letter was from Mr Molomo . When the Kgošigadi was surprised by that letter , Mr Molomo and his men arrived and said the Kgošigadi should go to her home . They carried her to her home and the Lebowa Government , the Magistrates , and the police did nothing about that . I accompanied the Kgosigadi to the magistrate's offices and they said the matter was in the hands of the Chief Minister . The Chief Minister said they were in his offices , but they were not given to him . Up to now, they have not been handed over to the Chief Minister . I have personally seen them but they have not yet reached his table . You can realise that we are disorganised . This is backed by the State President . What surprises me is that Molomo has the help from Lebowa and I wonder whether he did pay the Lebowa tax . Mr Molomo has stated that he writes letters to the magoši and not to the followers . He is backed by important people of the Lebowa Government . Molomo is from Bokone , that is my home . Mr Molomo is not a Ndebele . He only went to stay at Mashashane . MR L.G. MATHOLE : Thank you , Mr Speaker , Sir . We are having a national issue . It is a very important issue which must draw our attention . Mr Speaker , it is my submission that somewhere there is a liar and a crook and we must find out who that is .. It is either we are crooks or somebody is a crook and a liar. The Central Government must know one fact that their policy is failing and it is beginning to fail and divide and rule cannot be their tact . And you look to me I am a black man but you do not know to which tribe I belong . If I can tell you now , you will be surprised to hear where I belong . Where does the Central Government get such audacity to classify me when I know myself who I am? After all i am a man and they are men . After all we are just men . And one fact is that I am a Ndebele by birth and senior by royal blood . And the fact that I stay in Sekhukhuneland , I do not say I do not speak Ndebele . I did not associate with the Ndebeles 1 associated with the people in Sel.hukhuneland .

The Central Government must know one fact that if the people at Potgietersrus or Hammanskraal or at Mahlangu's associated me with black, they are just black to cultivate their evil fruit of divide and rule . They now make us fight

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in between . Now, according to their philosophy , where do I belong now? Should I fight my own brother just because he is not Ndebele or should I fight our brother just because he is not Pedi ? Should I fight my own white brother just because we grew up together with Mr du Toit we grew up at places with our own children . I grew up with them . Should I fight them because they are white and they have some whig - like styled hair? Should this House be resolute now to inform the Central Government that we are sick and tired of their political tactics . And it should be remembered that forces from outside are pressing the change even the depressed economic situation in South Africa because of preservation of colour . I once asked one senior politician in Cape Town when I was there . I asked him why - what the population of Russia is . He said it is 283 million . I asked who is in the government . He said there are 80 people . I said compare and contrust with the situation of South Africa . Is this not practical communism that it is depicting ? This is pure communism . And we are going to talk it here because we are allowed to do it here . Outside we are subject to detention regulation and disorder . I further asked this fellow about peace and order . Why do you sell the policy of independence to the homelands? He said that is all . Then in the Scientific analysis he must be objective and not subjective . Even then , you must not necessarily speak in his interpretation of answering my question . He said that they do not sell the policy of independence to homelands . They and we give them . He said the Transkei is independent come and ask for it and we lend them on our terms . They now want to do and it has no money the same thing with the Ndebeles . They want to do the same atrocity with the Lebowa people in the East . They are beginning to cut us to size . We blacks are deprived of our privileges and rights . Now we suggest to the Central Government that we will have an alternative . Communism or fascism will have an alternative . We will have to find a way out . Now what is happening? I now think , Mr Speaker , in his capacity as Kgoši M.M. Matlala is perplexed . Mr Speaker, my point is one . Somebody is a liar . Somebody is untrustworthy or somebody else . Somebody must be hanged . And I believe I must hold the Central Government responsible for all these atrocities and anomalies . Mr Speaker , we reveal it to the whole world that Central Government is untrustworthy . The Central Government is budgeting much for the Department of War which they say it is the Department of Defence . This very Department of War is against the Blacks . We have discovered in History that Sir George Grey was in the Cape Town during the 18th century . And there he had a slave called Nongausi who new him as God . Because a black man never met a white man before , it was alleged that Nongausi had seen the idols . Here comes a colonist , an imperialist to tell us that they have committed a national suicide . This was a perpetrated murder . This must be told down in Downing Street , London . It must be known that we know the facts . Now we go to Cecil John Rhodes . If you have read the trial of Mussoline , you must just learn one thing . When Rhodes came he carried a Bible in his right hand and a bottle of whisky in his left hand . He said give the black bustards this and read to him this and in the mean time take the land away from him . This is just what they are doing with us . And actually I am sorry it is my submission Mr Speaker that amongst our seconded officials working for Lebowa their consciences are dead , dead and completely dead . They are prepared for this Nazism and fascism. They now want to lie to us .

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They want Bantu Homeland Constitution Amendment Bill . They want the Mandebele to stay alone and be supported by the Central Government . My beloved brothers , do not be lost . I am going to reiterate what I said in the past session that the forces are coming and those who are irresponsible will be wiped out in Amin style . I do not agree with some of my political colleagues who say we must bury the hatchet and forget the past . Now if I am perturbed I will think of my grandfather who died for this country. We are worried by foreigners who are hardly 400 years in this land - South Africa . Now we are begging them not to decide for us as we can do this ourselves . Now, Mr Speaker , I want this House to stand resolutely now and that they treat with contempt the action of the Central Government to create a Ndebele-stan . Now, Mr Speaker , under the circumstances , I am requesting that we proceed sir .

MR T.S. TLAKA : Mr Speaker , Sir , I feel I will be expressing theopinion of this House that when these nine farms in the area of Nebo will be available that was to ease the conjestion . We clamoured a lot about conjestion . The farms were made available by Pretoria , but for a different purpose . Onc is this . We all remember we had an honourable Member here Mr. Mashabela and he killed his brother for chieftainship . There were negotiations , I do not know with which office ; but the magistrate at Nebo was a go - between . It was for the provision of land for the accommodation of Mashabela and he was to be accommodated on some of these land or all of them . I feel that I am satisfied that negotiations were not with this government but with Head Office - Pretoria . If Mashabela had not killed his brother , I do not know what we would be saying about this issue today because Mashabela would be accommodated on those farms together with his people and then we would be told that these farms are bought for Lebowa and already been given away . When Pretoria says something , some people think it is the slip of the tongue They have a habit of telling exactly what they are going to do and they are going to do it . At a meeting held at Dennilton it was made known that the government is going to instal a chief in the Nebo area for the Ndebeles . Now the question is arising . We already have Mahlangu in Nebo . Would this new appointment move an extention of the jurisdiction of that Dennilton Mahlangu into the Nebo area? or are they going to put up a new chief really? You should remember honourable Members that when Pretoria feels like a chief can spring up like a mushroom over night . I feel we shall have to deal with another mushroom chief soon over that area . Mr Speaker , I am going to stop here because some of these things have already been mentioned and I do not want to repeat . Further Mr Speaker , concerning this Mokerong aspect , it is only an application of the old colonial maxim of divide and rule . And I am appealing to all the honourable members of this honourable House to join me to tell the Central Government that please , please - they can rule us as much as they like but we shall tolerate no further division . And we are going to take active steps for the unification of all blacks in South Africa . Thank you very much , Mr Speaker .

THE SPEAKER :

Honourable Member , we have thrashed this issue .

MR L.C. MOTHIBA : Mr Speaker , I think it is proper to guide the Cabinet what actions to take on this matter . Mr Speaker , I have been listening carefully to hear that I only had one motion by the honourable Mr Mathole but then it was not seconded or followed up . Other honourable Members also indicated that this Honourable member Mr Molomo should be called and made to meet the magoši of Mokerong . Now if we could only get the finality of this point .

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THE SPEAKER : Honourable motion is not seconded , moved by the honourable we can make a follow-up

Member , I thank you for your advice . If the it lapses . So , that is the case with that one Mr Mathole . You can move it and be seconded so that and get finished with this issue .

MR L.C. MOTHIBA : Mr Speaker , I feel that a few members of Mokerong constituency did mention that they wish to meet this Hon . Mr Molomo . Seeing that the matter came up with them , I would suggest that it is proper to request the Cabinet to meet this man and the magoši of Mokerong . The Cabinet can also get one member to represent them at the meeting by this gentlemen . But, Mr Speaker , I do not want to waste too much of your time , but I must say that even if the magoši requested that it should be dealt with in that manner, he might not avail himself to them because it has been indicated that this man is dealing with the highest authorities . From reliable sources of this House it seems he is a gaol bird . Lastly , Mr Speaker , are we allowing Mr Molomo to get into our area and school without our concern?

THE SPEAKER : I believe the hon . Members understand the urgency of this aspect . We hand it over to them for investigation and we hope they will act immediately . We are grateful for the advice ; and we may end it up there . We leave it in the hands of the Cabinet . MR L.G. MATHOLE : I just want to draw the attention of the House that we will not have business according to Order Paper for tomorrow . Would it not be advisable for us to have item No. 12 now that the respective Minister can give notice of Bills ? And further , Mr Speaker , as a matter of urgency and of national issue there is a rumour amongst the Lebowans that there is an urgent notice of a motion of no confidence in the government . I would like that the group must be aware of the fact that their time limit ends up tomorrow for them to give a notice of no confidence . Otherwise , Mr Speaker, it must be known to them that if it is not put forward now , notice of such a motion cannot be considered by this House tomorrow. Mr Speaker, Sir, this must be known that it is in the national interest whether the government is going or not . Not the particular instance of certain individuals who have some political soft heads . As a Legislative Assembly , we have certain programmes to work after the traditional customary motion of no confidence and we cannot introduce them before that motion is introduced . If they are cowards , Mr Speaker , they must stand up and tell us they are cowards . We have no time to waste for our people of Lebowa . We have come here to work. And we have many issues as the Chief Minister has said . We want to dissolve , we want to get rid of this opposition if it becomes a government it must not know our programme of the day but create its own . Now , Mr Speaker , this is an urgent request . Now , Mr Speaker , returning to item no . 12 Notices of Bills so that the House must have business tomorrow . Can we allow that Mr Speaker .

THE SPEAKER : Honourable Members , here is a special request : That since time has elapsed we go to item 12. We shall then start with item 12. Notice of the Lebowa Appropriation Bill 1977 and the Lebowa Members of the Legislative Assembly Pensions Bill 1977 . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker and Honourable Members , I wish to give notice in terms of standing rule ; 99 ( a ) that it is my intention to introduce

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the Lebowa Appropriation Bill 1977 tomorrow . This Bill provides for the appropriation of an amount of £ 69 135 000 towards the requirements of Lebowa for the financial year ending 31/3/78 . Apart from the details reflected in the schedule to this B.11 further particulars are embodied in the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for 1977/78 which I will table in due course . Mr Speaker , Sir . And , Mr Speaker , may I proceed to give another notice of the Bill? Mr Speaker , I give notice that I shall introduce the Lebowa Members of the Legislative Assembly Pensions Bill 1977 tomorrow . Mr Speaker , Sir , I have a special request . It has been mentioned that we may run without much business tomorrow. I , therefor , in order to provide for much business , would like to, through your Speaker , Sir , get permission of the Legislative Assembly to submit the first reading of the Lebowa Member of the Legislative Assembly Pensions Bill 1977. I should add Mr Speaker , with due respect that the Bill referred to is a longish one and I think if it could be read the first time now , the members would have enough opportunity of studying this Bill in its various simplefications so that they will be in a very strong position tomorrow to take the second reading . Along side , this Bill , I wish also to table a white paper to help the members. Mr Speaker , Sir ! ( The House agrees that the Bill be read a first time . The First Reading of the Lebowa Members of the Legislative Assembly Pensions Bill , 1977. ) THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker , I hereby wish to table the Lebowa Members of the Legislative Assembly Pensions Bill , 1977 and move that it be read a first time . I also table a white paper on this Bill , Mr Speaker and the second reading will be tomorrow . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr Speaker , Sir , I also wish to give notice that it is my intention to give a first reading of a Bill to regulate trading and development of Apprenticeship in certain trades and to provide for matter incidental thereto , the Bill to be called the Lebowa Apprenticeship Act , 1977. Mr Speaker , Sir , I further stand to give notice that tomorrow I propose to move the first reading of the Bill to provide for the control in matters of businesses and trading undertakings in Lebowa and for matters incidental thereto . The Bill to be called the Lebowa Business and Trade Undertakings Bill of 1977 . Mr Speaker , Sir ! MR L.C. MOTHIBA : Mr Speaker, Sir , seeing that there is no more any Minister wishing to give notice of any Bill , I would suggest that we get back to item 10 . MR L.G. MATHOLE : Mr Speaker , Sir , there is an omission that this Hon . House did not refer to and I am going by special permission from you . hat the Mr Speaker, to move subject to what we have discussed authorities at Mahwelereng , Potgietersrus and the Department of the Interior must see to it that the said Mr Molomo must not hold any meeting in the property of Lebowa .

THE SPEAKER : Honourable Member , your request is noted . we shall now ow go back to item 9 . THE CHIEF MINISTER :

Honourable House ,

Mr Speaker , Sir , I table the Report of the Auditor-

28888

General on the Account of Lebowa Government and of the accounts of Lebowa Authorities in the area of the financial year for the financial year 1975/76 in terms of the Rule 148 ( b ) ( ii ) . It stands to refer to the Sessional Committee on Lebowa Government Accounts . Mr Speaker , I wish to table the treasury replies to the resolutions of the Sessional Committee on Lebowa Government Accounts 1976 which stand to be referred to the Sessional Committee 1977 . Mr Speaker , Sir ! MR L.G. MATHOLE : May I under item 10 ( ii ) propose to the Honourable House that the Committee stands as it is for Rules of Procedure on internal arrangements subject to Rule 148 of the Standing Rules of Procedure . The following are the names of the members who constituted the committee for the past session . Kgoši T. Kibi , the Hon . S.S. Mothapo , the hon . Kgoši T.J. Mothapo and the hon . Kgoši J.K. Nchabeleng .

MR L.C. MOTHIBA:

Mr Speaker , I second what he said .

MR L.G. MATHOLE : Mr Speaker , Sir , may I propose on item 10 ( ii ) on Public Accounts , subject to Rule 148 of the Standing Rules of Procedure the following names , Mr Speaker , with your permission . Mr Speaker , in our Standing committee for the previous year we had five names . I propose in the first instance the name of the hon . L.C. Mothiba , in the second instance the name of Hon . E.M. Maloma , Kgoši A.3 . Molepo , hon . J.M. Ratale and Kgoči K.P. Phasha . MR L.C. Mothiba : According , Mr Speaker , to Rule 155 of the Standing Rules of Procedure I would like to move that this House authorises the Sessional Committee on Public Accounts to deal with the matter . MR L.G. MATHOLE : Seconded , Mr Speaker . else adjourn the House .

Item 13 , Mr Speaker .

Progress or

THE SPEAKER : We will pass item 13 because there is no one who wants to move a motion . The honourable the Chief Minister would like to meet the members of the Sessional Committee on Public Accounts hereafter . We are through with our today's order paper . We shall therefor adjourn our sitting for today .

THE

HOUSE

ADJOURNS

AT

4.30

p.m.

29 29

1977

THURSDAY

THE

31ST

MARCH .

The proceedings commenced at 10h00 . The Deputy Speaker read a prayer . Mr M.W. Kgatla seconded by Kgoši M. E. Mogashoa moved the adoption of the minutes . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Deputy Speaker and the Honourable House , it will be recalled that the Honourable House was of the intention to pay a visit to the Eastern portions of Lebowa where there are problems relating to boundaries between ourselves and the Gazankulu community . The Cabinet has attached importance to this and has accordingly arranged a trip for next Thursday , the 5th April . As the area concerned is very extensive , it will be necessary for members to be away from Tuesday up to Wednesday . The transport arrangements will be announced later and the Minister of the Interior will give further details . MR M.W. KGATLA : Mr Deputy Speaker , Sir , under 8 , I should have contacted you to give me the opportunity to say what I wanted to say , unfortunately I have just arrived from home , from what the Chief Minister was saying here Mr Deputy Speaker , before the Minister of Interior can elaborate with arrangements . I have contacted the people concerned in the East to see difficulties of accommodation if we have to sleep out and we thought we could be relieved of such a situation . That is provided our suggestions have been accepted . I hope the Minister of Interior is listening attentively to this . How about if we leave on Tuesday very early in the morning and start right down at Mapulaneng . From Mapulaneng down to Phalaborwa . From Phalaborwa we end at Naphuno and from Naphuno we travel a distance of 80 miles back to Seshego . The inconvenience of having to look for sleeping quarters , food etc. , for 100 of us has been relieved by that because we shall be sleeping at our quarters in Seshego . We shall have spent little petrol on the buses and food . The following day we just touch Sekgosese and Bolobedu which are nearby and before sunset we shall be back to Seshego . We are not against whatever arrangements there , but we feel we could cut the expenses that could be incurred . I wouldn't like to say that most of the people don't want to sleep out . These are our suggestions and the Minister may give his final decision . THE MINISTER FOR INTERIOR : Mr Speaker , Sir , in reply to what the Honourable Member from Bolobedu has said , I will have to point out that I received very democratic instructions from the Chief Minister in which he instructed me to consult with Magoši and Members of Parliament from different constiLuencies that are affected . I have so far been able to discuss this matter with the few members . And this morning I met the Members and magosis from Bolobedu unfortunately the member was not present . I was assured this morning , Mr Speaker , by Bolobedu members of Parliament that they were going to submit their suggestions to me and there was no indication that the suggestions are going to come to Parliament . Nevertheless , Mr Speaker , I shall do my best to persue my tact in consultation with the magosis and members concerned . And if there are unforseen problems I will be able to submit my report to the Chief Minister before two o'clock today . The wishes of the Honourable Member from Bolobedu have been noted .

30 30 THE

DEPUTY SPEAKER : Honourable Members , we close this matter and leave it into the hands of the Minister of Interior . I wish to inform the Honourable House that the Speaker in the person of Kgoši M.M. Matlala has been called for urgent business and he won't be present today . Further announcement is that a key has been picked in the yard so that anybody who has lost a cars key should contact the Secretary of the Assembly . There is still a further announcement here . I think one word here is misspelt . I shall ask the Secretary just to read this . I don't know whether it is invitation or intention . Honourable House we take it that the word is intention . This comes from Honourable T.J. Mothapo dated 1977 March 31st . It reads thus : " The Secretary of our Party " Lebowa People's Party" . That is the end of the letter . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr Speaker , Sir , I think it will be regular to ask the Honourable Kgoši to give the intentions of the Party when the leader of the Party is here . KGOŠI T.J. MOTHAPO :

That is my request Mr Speaker .

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : THE DEPUTY SPEAKER :

Point of order ,

Mr Speaker .

Point of order granted .

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : It shall be irregular if this House is going to allow a member of this House to give a political intention when the leader of the opposition party is present . And I shall appeal to you Mr Speaker to attend to the business of the House and don't allow the House to go into confusion . And I say this in the interest of the people of Lebowa . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Order Paper .

Honourable Members , I think I shall continue with my

KGOŝi T.J. MOTHAPO : Mr Speaker , do you oppress me or what do you do . want to know. I asked to present my position and that of my party . MR L.C. MOTHIBA : DEPUTY SPEAKER :

I

Point of order , Mr Speaker . Point of order is granted .

MR L.C. MOTHIBA : Mr Speaker, I am standing on a point of order in that the Honourable Member is not in order if he stands without you calling his name to stand . Moreover, Mr Speaker , I have the opportunity of seeing the Chief Whip here writing a letter to him yesterday asking whether he is going to give a notice for today's discussion so that he can be included in the Order Paper . And in his reply he said he is considering and he will notify the Chief Whip if he is going to do that or not . So , instead of giving a notice of what ever matter he wants to raise on the Order Paper for tomorrow he stands up and wants to say something now . Our Rules of Procedure say that this House will only be busy with Order Paper . And if any other member has got something to raise , he must go through the leader of the House and the Secretary and the Speaker so that whatever he wants to say should be included in the Order Paper for the following day . All I think is that he will be out of order if he should be given the chance to go on. THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Thank you , Honourable Member . But all I said was that you should allow me to dispose of my order paper .

31

THE MINISTER FOR JUSTICE : Mr Speaker and the Honourable House , I hereby give a notice of a motion to amend section 20 of the Bantu Administration Act 38 of 1927. The object of this Bill is to increase the value of a beast which a kgoli can impose a fine in his court . The explanatory memorandum accompanies the Bill . The Cabinet having been informed of the subject , the matter is submitted for consideration of the Legislative Assembly . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr Speaker, I move that the Lebowa Business and Trading Undertaking Bill , 1977 now be read for the first time since the bill is not yet available in N. Sotho the permission of the Legislative Assembly is requested in terms of the Standing Rule No. 99 ( b ) in order to proceed to the first and second reading as well as the committee stage thereof. THE DEPUTY SPEAKER :

When will the second reading be?

MR M.W. KGATLA: Point of order , Mr Speaker . The Minister has requested the permission of the House to proceed with the Bill despite the fact that we haven't the N. Sotho issue . Now you haven't heard the decision of the House . Furthermore, the English and the Afrikaans versions have not yet been distributed to the members . On what basical principle are we going to listen to the Minister reading his Bill for the second time without anything in hand? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr Speaker , Sir , what I request from this Honourable House is the first reading of the Bill . And if I have been granted permission by the Honourable House , I shall table the Bill today . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : can be distributed .

I am informed that the copies are now available and they

MR H.M. LESHABANE : Mr Speaker , I want to ask that we accept the request of the Honourable the Minister and failing to do so may cause a delay of one year . We should accept it for the interest of the people of Lebowa and the businessmen in our country . This Bill will be for good and survival of this House and relieve us of unemployment problems . Thank you ! MR M.W. KGATLA: Mr Speaker , it should be understood that I am not against the Bill being read , we only wanted to have the version which is available then the Minister should go on. MINISTER OF WORKS :

Mr Speaker , I second Mr Leshabane .

THE

AGREE S.

HOUSE

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr Speaker , I now request permission to table the Lebowa Business and trading Undertaking Bill , 1977 , Mr. Speaker . I further move that the Lebowa Apprenticeship Act , 1977 be now read for the first time and further request permission to table the Lebowa Apprenticeship Act , 1977 and give notice of my intention of giving the second reading in due course , Mr. Speaker , Sir! THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Honourable House , I am made to understand that several copies were distributed to Members at their quarters last night . And this morning the same copies were short because they were given the same copies that were given last night . MR M.W. KGATLA: Mr Speaker , it is not correct . We have been given the Bill by the Chief Minister dealing with pensions for members of the Legislative Assembly . That is what we got. What we are interested in now is the two from the Minister of the Interior . That of the Chief Minister and the

32 (a )

Bill was delivered unofficially. I don't even have one . and deliver things in my House while I am not there?

How can you go

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Honourable Members , I am made to understand that what the is saying is correct but there are few members who received hon . member. two of those copies . Will they please check and return one copy to the table? That being done , we shall proceed to the next item . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Deputy and Honourable Members , I am afraid there is a mistake with the Order Paper . Mr Speaker , should you allow me , Sir , to point out the mistake and crave for your indulgence to have it corrected . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER :

You may do so , Sir !

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Thank you , Mr Deputy Speaker . Yesterday does not have the rist reading of the Lebowa Appropriation Bill . What I did do was in fact to give intention . The Lebowa Appropriation Bill , 1977 is not yet read for the first time . Thank you , Mr Deputy Speaker . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER :

That been done , then we shall get to the next item .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker , Sir , I move that the Lebowa Members of the Legislative Assembly Pension Bill , 1977 be now read for the second time . The Bill makes provision for the payment of Pensions and other Benefits to members , their widows , and their children and has been accepted in principle by the Cabinet as it was felt that it was time that members should receive compensation for any reason to be a member and that the wives or children of members should also be compensated , should members die . This is in accordance with the practice in most democratic countries . are as follows : The clauses of the Bill are CLAUSE ONE : Contains the definition . CLAUSE TWO : Provided for contributions by members . CLAUSE THREE : Gives the members the option to include their previous service as Pensionable service and in turn the rate at which they shall contribute in this pension . clause four : Lays down the rate at which the amount shall be deducted from the members ' salary . CLAUSE FIVE : It determines pension payable to a member who had had at least eight years service . CLAUSE SIX : Lays down the benefits payable to a member who had had less than six years service . CLAUSE SEVEN AND EIGHT : Provide for the amount of pension or benefits to be paid to a member's widow , or widower and his children and the manner in which it shall be divided amongst them . CLAUSE EIGHT : Provides further the manner in which the Pension or benefits payable to a child , may be dealt with at the d scretion of the Secretary and how arrear instalments at the time of his death shall be dealt with . CLAUSE NINE : Lays down from when the pension shall be payable . CLAUSE TEN : Provides that arrear contributions due by a member shall be deducted from his salary in terms of section five . CLAUSE ELEVEN : Provides that a pension will cease to be paid if a former member again becomes a member or is a widow who receives pension under the Act , becomes a member . CLAUSE TWELVE : Provides that all pensions and benefits under the act shall be paid from the revenue . CLAUSE THIRTEEN : Rules that the pension or a right cannot be ceded , assigned , transferred prayed etc. and may not be attached or subject to execution order under a court order of judgement . This clause also empowers the Chief Minister to withhold , discontinue or suspend the pension or to instruct that the pension or part of it be paid for such period as he may decide to the pensions or trustee of the pensioner in the event of the pensioner attempting to assign ,

32 (b)

cede or transfer his pension . CLAUSE FOURTEEN : Provides that any election in terms of the Act must be in writing to the Secretary . CLAUSE FIFTEEN : Entrusts the secretary with the general administration of the Act under the control of the Chief Minister and further provides that the Chief Minister may delegate his powers to the Secretary of his Department and that the Secretary may also delegate his powers . CLAUSE SIXTEEN : Empowers the Chief Minister to determine in what instalments and how and when the pension shall be paid . CLAUSE SEVENTEEN : Lays down that every member must inform the Secretary of writing of the full name of the mother and the Legislative Assembly, in also provides that the wife of the member may register her unborn child with the Secretary of the Legislative Assembly with the duty of maintaining a register of the particulars referred to above rules that only the persons who have been registered will qualify for pensions or benefits under the Act . Mr Speaker , Sir , I must point out at this stage when clause 17 will be discussed . There are certain amendments which I propose to make . CLAUSE EIGTEEN : Determines that the date on which a member takes the Oath at a session of the Legislative Assembly shall be the date from which he shall become a member for the purpose of his pension . CLAUSE NINETEEN : Provides for the short title on the date of its commencement . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Honourable House , a very important Bill has been read to the House . It is now open for comments . MR L.C. MOTHIBA : Mr Speaker , I would like to refer Rule 106 that on the second reading of a Bill a debate may arise covering the general merits and principles of the Bill . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : I thank you Honourable Member . I was just coming to that . On your behalf I wish to appeal to the House to discuss the principles of the Bill . Just before we started , the Secretary complained that the copies were not yet returned . Some members are running short . If you have two copies please raise up your hand , the messengers will come and collect . MR .S.S . MOTHAPO : Mr Speaker , Sir , very unfortunately some of us don't have those copies and it is going to be very difficult to can follow up what is going on in this House . Since the copies were distributed outside this House , I am suggesting that here and now this kind of a procedure be terminated . Whatever a thing distributed , let it be distributed in this Honourable House .

KGOSI E.M. CHILOANE : Mr Speaker , I second him . The idea of distributing copies at the members quarters , does not satisfy because some of us don't sleep there . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Honourable Members , on your behalf , I wish to apologise for the mistake . I don't think it was intentional . So we proceed with the principles and the merits of this Bill . MR M.W. KGATLA: Mr Speaker, who ever thought of this Bill , thought well for those who are very old are living on pension particularly the 8% on deductions from each and every member of the Legislative Assembly . I have got rightful information that I will still go and tell that is compulsory for every member of Parliament to contribute to some pensionable fund . I don't blame anybody . I am blaming everybody . We have been here in 1969 as a Legislative Assembly and it will be in good order if it was ever brought to us by the officials of the Central Government , who are actually pressing this Bill on us now. And I remember very well in 1973 that the present

༣ Minister of the Interior wanted to bring a clause into the Bill that was dealing with our salaries . It was regarded as unnecessary . I was working out a simple arithmetic here . The 8% on your salary means you are going to pay R24 each month out of your salary into the pension . And remember now you are paying R11,00 tax on your salary , that is why it is 288,94 . So this is what will happen to you if you accept this Bill to go through . Every month they are going to deduct R35,00 from your R300 . Count with me 1969 , 1970 71 , 72 , 73 , 74 , 75 , 76 , 77 nine years !

In ther wore you are owing R24 x 12 x 9. And if you have read the explanatory note it went further to sav if they find that you are owing ey will subtract w.thout asking you . You will get a blank cheque one day . And if you lock further, they will tell you if you have contributed for about twelve years , it must be stopped. It is for us now to accept or reject that Bill . I wanted to ask whether we cannot put an amendment in this Bill . if my suggestion is accepted then I will accept the Bill 100%. For I see no reason why the Bill should start when we have only ten months to go for eleccions . This is what it means to me . They will have subtracted R24 x 12 x 9 for 10 months or so . If I am not elected in 1978 , they will refund my pension without any extra cent . This is my submission , Mr Speaker , through you to the Chief Minister about the Bill . We should accept this Bill provided it starts functioning next year after the elections for those who will have been elected . In other words if the State President happens to sign this Bill today it must wait until next year when the new members will have been elected . Those who may happen not to come back will be unfortunate . That is how I see this Bill , Mr Speaker . MR S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr Speaker , under the very explained by the Hon . Member , M.W. Kgatla , I support the idea that this Bill be passed by of being in effect from 1978. Thank you , Mr

circumstance that have been without any hesitation wish to this House with the intention Speaker .

MR L.C. MOTHIBA : Thank you , Mr Speaker . I am speaking on this Bill as a member of the Committee that set for this Bill at a study group . My opinion was that we should concentrate on the merits and the principles and we will do that first . And when we get to the committee stage you will realise that clause 19 indicates when the Bill will come into effect . The Hon . Members can write us an amendment to that effect . Otherwise , Mr Speaker , I think we should go on with it and amend where we want to . MR M.W. KGATLA:

On a point of order , Mr Speaker!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER :

Point of order granted .

Mr M.W. KGATLA : The Honourable Mr Mothiba is not debating the merits of the Bill . He tries to give the advice that we don't need now . What we are interested in now is to debate on the merits and the principles of this Bill . In other words the Hon . Mr Mothiba does not have anything to say under the merits or the principles of this Bill . He better just wait until we reach to that clause . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER :

Continue Hon . Member .

MR L.C. MOTHIBA : Thank you , Mr Speaker . I want to help this honourable House in connection with this Bill . The manner in which the previous speaker hon . Mr Kgatla has indicated that a lot of money will be deducted from salaries of the members of this House and as that is not in fact theirs

34

is incorrect . And I want this Hon . House to understand the Bill very clear with the original intention as brought out by the Honourable the Chief Minister viz . to assist the members of this House . He indicated how much you will have to pay but he did indicate how much you are going to earn . I want to indicate . this : If you look at clause 6 you find that even if you start paying tomorrow, and for 10 months if you don't come back after 10 months you get your money back plus 5% . Mr Speaker , Sir , here I want to indicate that there are a lot more of merits than the demerits which have been indicated . Just now as members of this House , we have got men and women who have got families . And these families are covered in this Bill . The families of these honourable members will receive some financial benefits if anything happens to a member of this House . You will remember that we had other members in this House who are no more members of this House but in fact we don't have anything legal that binds our government to look after the Welfare of the family , I remember the one Deputy Speaker of this House . He is late and his family receives nothing from this government but he has been doing something for the Government Mr Speaker , I want to indicate also that on clause 2 the committee with this particular Bill did agree that instead of " members shall " we said it mustn't be compulsory for members to be members of that pension fund . If they don't they must not be forced . So we take it in the committee to read as " may" so that there be provision for those who want their families to be looked after . So if any member is prepared that R24 per month be deducted he can do so if doesn't want he can do so . But remember that if after contributing for a few months and you want your money back , you will get it plus 5%. Mr Speaker , here I must also indicate that the impression given by the other sometimes you can get honourable member of saying that after 12 years your blank cheque , is not correct . The point at issue is that a member should not in anytime pay more than his salary can afford . And if you calculate for 12 years , paying an amount that has been mentioned there , you will find that the amount is equal to the salary of a man for that period . By law, a member must not pay an amount that is more than his salar That is why the contribution is limited to twelve years . After twelve years you no more pay, but you still remain a member of the pension fund . From there one may decide no more to be a member of Parliament . Whatever the case may be , they start paying you back or your family in the case where one has passed away. Mr Speaker , those are the principles as far as I am concerned . MR S.P. KWAKWA : Mr Speaker , this is a very liberal arrangement by any standard . In fact whatever remark , this was well thought for old people . As far as I am concerned , the people who stand to gain are the younger people , who are likely to remain in this House until they have reached 12 years , after which they may drop their pension if they retire . I don't know of any arrangement or any firm or any employing body that does not make these arrangements where you can be off and on and yet the period you served before it can be taken into account . With other employing bodies if you break service , when you came back you start afresh . And here is this advantage , where the years are taken respectively so that you reach your twelve years very quickly . The only clarification I want to have from the experts is what happens with other employing bodies when a person breaks . Do they give - say the 5% as you indicated here or don't they give what you have paid in plus an equal amount that has been contributed by employing body? So as far as I am concerned the rest is quite in order .

The laws of this country do not permit that a man should pay more than he can support his family. In other words , deductions cannot be made in such a way that he is not able to live . We presume that this will he dope

35

instalments . I advise those who have a chance of getting into this this chance because when old age comes , the pension , not to leave moment of truth will come when you will be face to face with life without any source of incure. I realise the committee had to be quite accomodating when they say " may" but as a matter of ‫ وا‬it were to be " sha ! " it will be to the benefit of us all , in particular th Se whi to have a longer life spa . in this Parliament . Thank you , Mr Sper

Speaker , Mr Speaker , I have gone through the MR M.J. PHASHA : Thar ป u, Bill and I was surprised hen the first speaker made comments on this . I found much of an exaggeration against the Bill . Mr Speaker for example he spoke of people who started in 1969 but according to the clause , here , there is no such reflexion . The Bill according to my understanding , Mr Speaker , affects this present members and if the present members can pass it , it is then that it will affect the next Assembly . It is unreasonable for this House to pass this bill , when they themselves do not agree on it . The coming Members of Parliament will also not accept the Bill since they will think that their predecessors did not accept it because it has disadvantages . Mr Speaker , the pension scheme is very good and I feel that , if a pension scheme is opened for the present Legislative Assembly , it will be of great benefit . According to my understanding this Bill says if we accept it , we will be in arrears for two years . But we will have a longer time in reaping . Thank you , Mr Speaker ! MR A.S. MAHLANGU : Thank you, Mr Speaker . I find the Pension Bill very much advantageous . It is necessary to analyse it for it benefits us and our children. It should have started long ago to save this much money that we drink daily. What is better , squandering or saving money? For our progress , let us pass this Bill and leave those people who are discouraging us . Those who are unwilling should be basing their argument on the fact that we are getting little money , and clamouring for increment I hope we will get increment one year . Thank you .

KGOŠI B.K. MATLALA : I thank you , Mr Speaker for having given me the opportunity to present my thoughts . When dealing with such matters ; we should face the facts . On this earth there is nothing better than saving your life and for the future . I don't know when I will die . The day I die , my wife will wish I were a member of the pension fund , because she will be suffering . She will not be getting the money that she was getting when I was still alive . Even if I have enough money at the bank , she will decrease it because she will be getting income from nowhere . But if I am a member of this pension , she will find that there are many advantages equal to my times of living . Let me correct one aspect which was said by the Hon . Members . Honourable Members said that this is meant for young people , because they still have more time of living . This is wrong because a small child may die early , while an elderly men remains for more fifty years thereafter . Honourable Members said the scheme will come into force in 1978. My question to Hon . Members is how do you know that we shall still be alive during that time? Mr Speaker , I would like to make an appeal to all hon . Members to accept this Bill . It is a good Bill . I want my family to be saved . Thank you!

36

KGOŠI K.P. PHASHA : I am one of the committee members who drafted his Bill and we found it suitable . It protects everybody including more than one wife and children . This Bill gives room for your wife and your children . I don't see the fault with the Bill but it would seem Honourable Members like Kgatla are opposing it . It will help us in future . Those who don't want it should keep quiet when the House accepts the Bill . Thank you ! MR H.M. LESHABANE : Mr Speaker , there is just one or two things I want to be clarified of . I don't fight anybody . On page 4 clause 13 ( 2 ) there is "The Chief Minister shall determine whether to withhold or to withdraw the money . " I want to know why and how is it going to operate? My reason is that in the pension mostly there is a pension committee , pension chairman . I can again see a danger Mr Speaker , of delegating powers to one man for the finance of the people . You must know that most of our wives cannot read . I have an example with widows who are paid money under estate commission . If I die while having R105 000 at the bank , they divide it in such a way that my wife gets R20 every month . At that time my wife does not record how much she is receiving every month . Nobody guides her about the balance . Neither does she receive any statement . At the end she is told that her money is finished , while she is having an ambition on the money such as paying school fees for children . That is why I say that I need an explanation from the Chief Minister regarding the absolute authority over people's money by one man . If one member dies , how is she going to get the pension . Is it going to be given through trust account? I would suggest that she get it cash so that she can bank the money on her own . Mr Speaker , I am not accusing anybody but as you must know that the Government moneys are being misappropriated by our officials . This can also apply to pension funds claimed by the widows . The savings accounts today give you 8% and you give us 5%. The special savings in any bank; post office and any financial institution is 8% . Others give 9,4%, others give you 10% . One sells his money to the stock exchange and get about 14,7% every year .

people can draw their money in a Mr Speaker, I feel that at least lump sum and on the other hand I want to make it clear that administration should be widespread and as joint body, we shall have the way of appealing . If one man can close the doors of communication one has no alternative but to take him to the court of law in which case money will be involved . Where is one going to get money from? In future I will not be present , and my wife will be referred from office to office . Eventually she will become tired and she will give up and that will mean the end of the whole thing . One day I will be bringing a motion regarding the reviewing of estates at the Magistrates ' offices . The manner in which they are presently dealt with is not satisfactory . Some of you have never seen a widow suffering because of the pension business . There is a lot of irregularity going on.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Honourable Members , I want to appeal to the House to help the Secretary . You must make short sentences so that the Secretary should be in the position to interpret what you have been saying . Avoid the repetition .

37

KGO I M.E. CHILOANE : Mr Speaker , I agree with the contents of the Bill . Tomorrow somebody may die . What will help us! Tomorrow one of us may die . The money for the pension will help taking the corpse to its home . If we don't accept this Bill tomorrow we shall be suffering when our brother is dead . we shall try in vain with our collections . His family will remain suffering . We want the money to help his family . If you don't refuse this Bill , then pass it . Thank you . KOOST P.S. PASHA: Mr Speaker and the hon . house , this is a good Bill , although it has few irregularities . Everywhere mention is made of a widow but not a widower . If my wife is an M.P. and she dies while I survive : since there is no provision for the widower , shall he get the pension money owed to her . Say this with reference to page 8 - 11 ( 2 ) of this Bill which reads as follow: " If any widow who is in receipt of or entitled to a pension in terms of this Act becomes a member , such pension shall cause to be paid or payable to her during the period of her service as a member . One hon . member said that we the elders won't derive any benefit from the pensions . He is wrong to speak for us as we are at present and also like this pension . Thank you , Mr Speaker . MR L.C. MOTHIBA : Mr Speaker , I just want to react to the question put by the hon . Kgoši Phasha relating to the position of the wife who is a member of Parliament while the husband is not and what happens to her pension in case she dies - as the name of her husband (widower ) is not shown in this Bill . There is provision in the Bill that if the wife dies the pension goes to the children . I don't know whether he is referring to cases where there are no children . Mr Speaker , I think it has been made clear to every member of the house that this Bill is open to every member who wants to be a member to this scheme . You will realise that several customary methods have been accommodated in the Bill . A member is given 90 days to decide whether he joins or not . Therefore to become a member depends on the decision made by the individual . I have got a family and because of this , I feel I must be a member of this pension scheme , but if I were single I might decide not to be a member of the pension fund . The situation applies where you find that there is a man who is not married and who is the member of this House . Where will the money go to after his death? MR J.M. PHASHA :

Point of order , Mr Speaker .

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER :

Granted!

MR M.J. PHASHA: The hon . L.C. Mothiba is irrelevant to the question put by the hon . Kgoši Phasha . The hon . Kgoši Phasha has put the question that if a member married a lady and she dies doesn't the husband who has not been a member benefit out of this pension fund? You know it can happen that a member lady who is married by christian rites who cannot marry any person besides him , dies , when she has contributed . Kgoši Phasha wants to know whether the husband benefits under this circumstances . Thank you , Mr Speaker . MR L.C. MOTHIBA: Mr Speaker , I think under this circumstances , it will rest with the house because I feel it is for the house to decide whether the man should benefit . MR H.M. LESHABANE : Mr Speaker , in most pension funds when you join you are .... given the opportunity to nominate the beneficiaries . I suggest ...... ( noise ...

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KGOŠI T.J. MOTHAPO : This is a fine Bill , Mr Speaker . This Bill has been delayed by the Whites who are serving our government since 1971 , because they were not ready , they bring it today on the eve of the last session , the time when some of us are going to rest at home , when some of us have died before they could benefit from the pension . This is not co-operation . I agree with Mr Leshabane that there should be a good system for the paying out of pensions to the widows . If I die , tomorrow my wife will be in difficulties to secure the pension . In section 8 (4 ) it said thus "The discretion of the secretary of the Department prevails in order for me to get the pension in a lump sum or in instalments . " Our wives should be told of the sum of money left behind by their husbands . It happens that they are just called upon to be paid some money from their husband's pensions without being told of the total sum of pension money . This is a terrible thing . After she has received the pension money through instalments for few months she is advised that the money is finished whereas she does not know the total sum owed to her. If I die of motorcar accident my wife is going to receive money with the aged as if she is also aged . They don't even consider the fact that you are having children who are attending school . This system of paying out pensions to widowed wives should be improved . Thank you ! THE MINISTER OF WORKS : Mr Speaker , I being a member of the committee , advise the Hon . Members not to take rumours from bad people who spoil the fine projects . It is true that some of our people who died in the mines , their wives were not told of the total sum they are suppose to get as pension until they stop paying . It is the duty of those who know to advise the widowed woman how she is to receive monies of her husband . I know of one office where I once took another woman to tell them she cannot live on R20 anymore . If you are not satisfied with the present money you need only apply then it will be considered . One case I witnessed was when one person decided that she will need her money to be transferred to the bank and that was successfully done . This system of paying the widow her pension money every month is not bad for if they give her all the money she will squander it . Even in the case where the Chief Minister is responsible for the payment ; if the widow requests a certain amount from the pension with the view to take a child to school or building a House she will be given the requested amount . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Order , Honourable House , it does appear that we are no more discussing the principles of the Bill . If you give examples , they must be relevant to the principle of the Bill . KGOŠI M.M. MATHABATHA : Thank you , Mr Speaker . I have long been listening with attentive ears . I am a person who first like to understand . The Bill is alright but if you don't like it you are not forced to accept it . I save my money at Barclays Bank and I open shares for my children . MR I.K. MALEBANA : I am very much glad to hear about this Bill . This is one sign through which we learn to know the whites . With our small start we can make something big . We are following the direction of insurance . We are starting to learn how to build ourselves . It is disappointing to learn that our custom is disappearing . To support this Bill does not mean that people cannot save money , they are ignorant . Some of us can save while others cannot save . If you join the scheme your money will be saved every month . This is where we can educate ourselves in saving . You will realise its importance on the death day .

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NOISE MR I.K. MALEBANA : On the death of a person who has contributed in the scheme , the furnitures that he is owing will not be repossessed but will be paid out of the pensions moneys . His children will continue with their schooling . If you are a member of this scheme , you are in the position to overcome some of the debts . For some debts , one can secure a loan in order to pay debts . In future we shall establish a bigger scheme than this one since we shall have seen its value .

MR N.S. MASHIANE : Thank you , Mr Speaker . I say this Bill is quite reasonable . Let us just correct some of the irregularities . That members join voluntarily after the Bill has been approved , is unreasonable . If the Bill is for us , it should be made compulsory to every member . If we don't do that let us reject it . What will be the kind of law that will only bind certain members and leave the others? If I contribute to it and someone who is my neighbour does not contribute , on my death my wife receives the pension and my neighbour who has not been contributing dies and he does not derive the same benefit like me . The Public will pass a remark that Lebowa is discriminating . Every citizen is to abide by the law of his country . According to how I understand this , a member has to contribute for 8 years and thereafter he is no more going to contribute . I want to know the estimation of the total amount in case a person has paid for twelve years . This will give everybody a green light .

MR L.C. MOTHIBA : Mr Speaker , the total amount that a member will have to get is R3 600 a year . And as I indicated before , the total amount payable by a member is not more than he gets . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER :

Order !

On that note this House shall adjourn until 2.15 . LUNCH

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Honourable House , we shall start from where we left . Mr L.C. Mothiba will continue explaining . MR L.C. MOTHIBA: Thank you , Mr Speaker . I have already given indication that the total amount a year will be R288 and if you multiply this total amount by twelve years , it will bring you to the total amount of R3 456 . If you add the 5% it will come to about R172,00 then the total amount will be 3 628. So in short that is the answer to the question put by the hon . Mr Mashiane of Thabamoopo . MR N.R. MAMPURU: Mr Speaker , what I am going to say is going to temper with the feelings of this Government . I realised that after twelve years a member is no more going to contribute to the pension fund . This Legislative Assembly has five years in power . I want to contribute to this pension but we don't know whether we shall still be alive by next year . I am prepared to contribute to this pension fund next year January but what I know is that I will never get it anymore . If I don't come back as a member of Parliament next year , what is to happen to me? The concrete example is witnessed with the Railway Bus Service where every passenger pays the insurance against accident but if no accident happens , they don't get their money back . Thank you !

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MR M.T. BOPAPE : I have no objection against this Bill . However I would like to say that a better procedure regarding the paying of pension money to widows should be adopted for, I have seen several widows suffering because of the present system . They go up and down . They interchange transport on several occasions until they have no more money to reach the magistrate's office . I think the widows should only be called upon on the day on which they will be receiving their money . One dissatisfying thing is that like the aged the widows receive their pensions once in two months . It should be remembered that the widows are not looked after by any other person whereas the aged are looked after . I am of the opinion that widows should where the magistrate's offices are far , receive their pension at the nearest post office . Afterall , I am waiting impatiently for the approval of the Bill as I don't know the day on which I shall die .

KGOŠI P.M. LEDWABA: Thank you , Mr Speaker . The main thing is that we made this Bill for ourselves and not for anybody else . I agree with Mr Mashiane . Thank you , Mr Speaker ! KGOŠI P.S. PHASHA : Mr Speaker, there is still one other problem that you left out in this Bill . What is to happen to a member who dies with his wife who is without children . In this case I hope the Government will regard it as unclaimed estate . But let me advise you that there are always people who are closely related to the dead person who are entitled to claim . I see that you have not made provision for such cases . In our own customs , there is no unclaimed estate . Mr Speaker this is my second question and I am awaiting a reply from the first question . MR L.C. MOTHIBA : Mr Speaker , if I should assist there , I would say we gave the first question to the House to decide whether we should put this widower out . On the second question too , it will be the duty of this House to decide who the heir to their estates are . Mr Speaker , I want to request that when we go through the bill and we find some difficulty , we shouldn't pose questions but we should come with suggestions . Tell us what you think could be done under such circumstances and this House will discuss the matter and arrive at a conclusion . Thank you , Mr Speaker ! MR D.J. NKOANE : Mr Speaker , this is a fine Bill and there is nothing difficult about it . The only problem with the Bill is the financial aspect of it . It is easy to contribute but it is difficult to receive your contributions back . Experience with some of the organizations to which we belonged has a telling effect .

MR D.S. MODJADJI : Mr Speaker , the Bill is alright although it has minor problems . If a woman is married by civil rites but because she is childless the husband chases her . The husband marries the second woman with children and later on the children together with their father died . of the two women who is entitled to take the money . One thing is that the one married through customary union will not succeed before the eyes of the law. Thank you . MR E.M. MALOMA : Mr Speaker being a member of the committee which effected this Bill , I would say that there is nothing in this Bill which stops the woman from getting the privileges after the death of the husband . Both women have the right to share what belonged to their husband . This is how it stands in the Bill . We considered all aspects , both customary union and civil right marriage will benefit . The court which distributes them will decide upon - refer to clause 7 ( i ) which gives full details . Members should scrutinize it clearly . It has been made clear for everybody . Since all members now understand it , I would like the case to be referred to

41

the committee stage . KGOŠI M.E. CHILOANE :

I second him , Mr Speaker .

(The House agreed to go to the Committee Stage ) THE CHIARMAN :

Honourable House , the House is now in the Committee stage .

MR L.C. MOTHIBA : Mr Chairman , now that we are in committee , I request that we should read all the items as there are certain things which we must amend . It will also enable members of this House who received these copies this morning a more insight into the whole Bill . To enable the chairman to guide us to all clauses . I request that members who wanted that amendment of " May" and " Shall " to be compulsory to the members or be made optional should write down that amendment and hand it over to the Secretary . THE MINISTER OF WORKS : This is quite a good thing because it is for the first time that we have this type of a Bill . We must back it in such a way that members will understand it and the chairman should consider our understanding of the Bill than of time . (THE house agreed that the Bill be read clause by clause and the Chairman did the reading . ) MR M.W. KGATLA : Mr Chairman , Sir , is it not what was read by the Honourable Chief Minister this morning? Shall we proceed with the Bill ? MR P.L. KEKANA : What I am opposed to is the 5% because the bank gives us 8%. Why should we take over money and invest it where the percentage is smaller than the bank? You must know most of us do their own budget for the year .

MR L.C. MOTHIBA : Mr Chairman , according to rules of procedure , the member would raise up the matter on 5% . We are now in the Committee , we should talk about the clause that is now under discussion . If he has something to say about 5%, he will be given the chance to raise it when we get to the clause dealing with 5%. That is the procedure Mr Chairman . THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable Member , we are now reading this Bill clause by clause and if you have anything you want to raise , you will raise it when we come to that particular clause and I will give you a chance . MR P.L. KEKANA : morning and now very people who by clause while

Mr Chairman , I have been raising up my hand since this when I want to speak , I am stopped and I am told by the are responsible for the framing of the Bill that we go clause they have been speaking the whole morning .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and Honourable Members there was considerable controversy as to whether this should be compulsory or voluntary as the clause now stands . That is clause two ( i ) it will be compulsory because of the usage of the word a member " shall . " There was also the view expressed that it should be voluntary and I should like to get it clear here .

ALOši M.M. MATHABATHA :

Mr Chairman , I say it should not be compulsory .

MX M.W. KGATLA : Thank you , Mr Chairman . In a democratical common society ou cannot force a man to go and save his money if he does not want to do $0 . I have been in the Public Service for the last fifteen years and those who were ever in the Public Service will understand that it is a voluntary scheme for a public servant to save his money in what they term public servants pension fund . During that period when we were still under Pretoria

42

when one joins , a form is send to him for his decision to contribute or not . If you fill those forms to the effect that you want to contribute to the fund , when your cheque comes from Pretoria , they will have deducted the amount in that form . And if you were not interested in contributing , nobody would force you . I believe that even here nobody should be forced to contribute towards the pension if one is not interested in doing so . That is why the Hon . Mr Mothiba was telling us that they even changed this " shall " into " may" in order to accommodate exactly what I am saying now here . I would like to repeat what was said by the Hon . Kgoši Mathabatha , that some of us have taken contracts with the banks that when their cheques come , they invest the whole lot into the bank. I do that because they give me more than 9%. If you say it is compulsory and you give me more than 9% per annum on my money, it is alright . MR N.S. MASHIANE : I would like to know whether there is any interested party behind this Bill or are we to take this as a compulsory Act? I say it is alright when it is enforced by the word " shall " so that we should all pay . I thought KGOŠI M.E. CHILOANE : It seems the matter will now confuse us . is alright as it is . The law must be compulsory to us . We make laws for other people but when it comes to making laws for ourselves , we fail . That is not proper . If ever it has any association with the whites outside , it does not concern us . M D.J. NKOANE : Mr Chairman , it is something surprising to speak of this Bill since this morning . You should have rejected this Bill from the beginning rather than to accept it initially and turn it down at last . How do we think? We have accepted it from the beginning where is the problem in it? This House will otherwise be divided in order to come to a thorough agreement . Everyone knows how to leave on his earnings . Let us vote to see how many people will accept this idea . Thank you ! MR E.C. MADISHA : Thank you , Mr Chairman . This gives me a different thought . Honourable Members will pardon me for differing with this Bill slightly . We represent the people here and this Bill is going to be useful to each and everybody . MR M.W. KGATLA : Point of order , Mr Chairman . The Hon . Member is out of order . The Chief Minister wants to know whether we are making this Bill ^ compulsory and not to this society . That is what the Chief Minister wants now . THE CHAIRMAN :

Honourable Member , may you come to that point?

MR E.C. MADISHA : I am not speaking of society . I am still expressing myself . Don't interrupt me , Mr Chairman , while I am explaining . We are on the Bill . (NOISE ) THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman , may I explain this thing? If you say " may" you don't include anybody . If you say " shall " then you include everybody . I wonder whether we should just leave it like that . "May" you don't include anybody and if you say " shall " then you take everybody by the neck and say you do it .

13 43 MR M.W. KGATLA : Thank you , Mr Chairman . We want a very good explanation but this has brought us again a difficulty . He says if you say " may" you don't include anybody . In other words it include everybody ( Interjection) That being the case , Mr Chairman , our argument is here to get rid of the word " shall , " and have " may . " MR L.M. MADISHA : Thank you , Mr Chairman. We don't know the correct thing now . From the beginning there was an agreement on the Bill where we were nearing the finishing point . Now the problem is when people like it to be optional .

MR L.G. MATHOLE : Mr Chairman , Sir , we must give the contextual reading and interpretation of the word " shall " as placed as such . I put this argument , Mr Chairman , by carrying it into section 2 ( 1 ) which reads " Subject to the provision of this Act" As you continue reading other sections which are related within one act and related to section 2 subsection ( 1 ) you will find that there is a usage of the word " may elect . " Mr Chairman , Sir , it is my humble submission that to interpret " shall " as imperative is to my opinion very wrong . The " shall" here does not compel . Mr Chairman , Sir , I hereby submit that some members like Hon . Mohale William Kgatla did tell you that pensions are not forceable and on the same breath he tried to hackle me when I supported him . He is giving a very limited interpretation and the meaning which we must get from " shall " , must be interpreted with reference to other sections . If you find in a section in this very Act , that a member " may elect , " then it gives a broader interpretation to the meaning of " shall " . The Hon . House must not be so myopic as to give a very close interpretation to the word " shall " because it is subject to the provisions of this Act . Some of the teachers here , have been taught that the word " shall " works where force is applied . Ever since he was taught that , he concluded whenever the word " shall " is used , it implies force . If you come to the interpretation of statutes , Mr Chairman , you will find the word " shall " can be interpreted in a limited sense or in a broader sense , subject to the contents . If I am saying , we are making an appointment , Mr Chairman , I say I " shall " see you tomorrow, that is not imperative . I may not see you , Mr Chairman ; I am surprised to learn that from Std . I to Matric , P.H. and B.A. teachers taught pupils that " shall " is imperative . MR M.W. KGATLA : On a point of order ; I think the Honourable Member here , is trying to waste our time unnecessarily . MR L.G. MATHOLE : It is another method of Parliamentarians to hackle others who have good ideas . So the Honourable Mohale Kgatla is attacking me . I will give you certificates for it. Some of the Honourable members have gone from Std I to Matric , teachers ' course to B.A. being taught and made to cram that the only meaning which can be given to the word " shall " is compulsory and imperative . If you take the word " shall " in sections 2 and 3 you will find that the meaning attached to " shall " cannot be limited . The Honourable member from Bolobedu has said with no uncertain terms that pensions cannot be forced on a member . Mr Chairman , the word " shall " does not try to constitute that pensions , there will be a law which is not forceable but that " shall " be a law to the pension funds . Mr Chairman , Honourable Members , have already stated their interests in this House of the Bill , they understand it . It is our duty to put it into an existing Bill . These people say I don't understand " shall " Mr Chairman . I shall give you the following words : " Shall " odd , " may" might . If they don't want "shall " , what do they want?

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MR H.M. LESHABANE : Point of order , Mr Chairman . The Hon . Mr. Mathole has decided to waste time for this House . In fact he is out of order . Rule him out , Mr Chairman . MR L.G. MATHOLE : Mr Chairman , with regard to this point of order has been very useless and very untimeous from the rhetoric zone . Mr Chairman , my submission is one . The word " shall " as interpreted contextually does not become imperative . THE CHIEF MINISTER : I have no intention of carrying on an acrimonious disputation here . I think the honourable the last agrees with us . That in his comprehensive view the word " shail " does not make compulsion and therefore agrees with my interpretation of the word " may" in this context . And because shall which is interpreted as " may by the legal men will confuse us , I would suggest that the way out is for us to use the word which we all understand and that is the word "may" because " may" in this context does not mean compulsion . It would appear that , Mr Chairman, we now all agreed that there should be no element of compul . on. If you don't want to take care of your kids and your wife and so forth surely its your responsibility .

THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable Members , may then ask? I still have six more speakers . Are we agreed that we retain " may" and we proceed? THE CHIEF MINISTER Mr Chairman , if then you say from the 6th day it would appear we should be more specific there . There should be a time within which a man must make up his mind from the 6th day. There should be some time within which a man must make up his mind from the 5th day . Will ninety days be sufficient subject to the provisions of this Act , a member may be within 90 days from 6th day and from the day on which he becomes a member etc. MR M.W. KGATLA: Mr Chairman , I think contrary to what the Chief Minister was saying , we are going to put a strict time . In section 2 ( i ) a provision in section 3 ( i ) the talk of 90 days or so down there that we must submit the criterion of time . THE CHIEF MINISTER : I would go along with that Mr Chairman , if it would be implied in terms of the language of this particular section . If it would be implied that it will be within 90 days . I would go along with that . THE CHAIRMAN : Are you agreed on that honourable members (AGREED ) read clause 22 ( he reads ) Do you accept that?

Then we

MR M.W. KGATLA : Mr Chairman , I am to inquire an explanation from the Hon . the Chief Minister . Why is it twelve years? Yet each life of the Legislative Assembly is five years . If you are fortunate to come back to Parliament it will extend your time to 10 years and I don't know how is the two years brought in , te count 12 . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman , this matter was earlier explained by Mr Mothiba . Unfortunately he is not here but in order to save time you see , in twelve years time you will have paid enough . You cannot pay more than your salary . You will have paid sufficiently in twelve years time . It is calculated on a certain base and then you can be exempted from that . Even if you become a member of Parliament after twelve years , you won't pay . You are exempted but you are still entitled to draw your pension . MR S.P. KWAKWA : Mr Chairman , besides , I read into this very carefully and on the base of pensions that are repayable to certain people , I found that they are governed by this . In the case of whites for instance they receive thanh295ftheir salary . It is unfortunate with us because we receive less

45 45

of our salary . But the wage has been worked out for the purpose of this parliament . It means one who has been in this House for twelve years will receive a pension that is equivalent to 4/5th of his salary. MR A.S. MAHLANGU : I am asking whether this pension is to be with effect from 1969 or 1973? This is because there are members who are 9 years in Parliament . Does it mean it may be started now when this Bill is approved? I need an explanation .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : You have been a Territorial Authority since 1969. Subject to mistake , I think it ought to start in October 1972 when we started being a self- governing state . Unfortunately I speak in the absence of my legal adviser I think that is the position otherwise I will ascertain the fact . THE CHAIRMAN : section 3 ( 1 ) .

Proceed Reading clause ( 2 ) ;

MR L.G. MATHOLE :

Contributions continued to

Explanation , Mr Chairman , Sir .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman , Sir , section 3 ( i ) here in the explanatory notes is very simple , anyone can understand it . MR L.G. MATHOLE :

Insisted on an explanation .

THE CHIEF MINISTER: plained?

Mr Chairman , what is actually a thing that must be ex-

THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . the Chief Minister , the Honourable Member , says he doesn't understand this section . MR L.G. MATHOLE : Mr Chairman, if one stands up and say in a right angle triangle a square of the base plus the square of the hypotenuse i.e. pythagorus , I want an explanation how you come to that pythagorus . THE CHAIRMAN :

Shall we proceed?

MR L.G. MATHOLE : THE CHAIRMAN :

Mr Chairman , are you depriving me of my privileges .

Hon . Member , we said you will get the reply tomorrow .

MR L.G. MATHOLE : From whom because the Chief Minister says he cannot take the responsibility upon his neck because he does not know what he is going to explain . You can't get a homework which has no solution . MR A.S. MAHLANGU: Mr Chairman , I thought the Chief Minister will reply to my question tomorrow. I am surprised to hear that there is nothing to reply to . That is my question and the Chief Minister should not be confused by the Hon . Mathole . MR S.P. KWAKWA : Mr Chairman , I think this should stand . There is an advantage in this arrangement . All you have to do is to pay at the rate of 4% to meet the arrears of the moneys you took when you fell out . That helps you to get to twelve years quickly so that you can be relieved from paying because you may be fairly old that you can't afford to stretch for another seven years or eight years as the case may be . So if you are five years old you will only add 5 years to reach the state where you stop paying . That only means an extra 4% of your salary which then means you pay 12% . There is an advantage in that you will get your pension before you would be told you have not yet been on pension for 8 years . Therefore what we can do is to return to you what you have contributed plus 5 % and at the time when you have to fall out is when you need this pension . ( Clause 4 , 5 , 6 )

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MR M.W. KGATLA : Mr Chairman , Sir , I just want to find out from the Chief Minister why these pensionable allowances should only earn 5% per annum yet when you are paying in you are asked to pay at the rate of 5% of your salary? I am asking this question Mr Speaker because of the argument that we had this morning that there are banks that even go to an extend of paying you your money up to 40% . That is where the whole argument was We see some that we are asking that this should not be compulsory as such green pasture where we can invest our money instead of this 5% . MR H.M. LESHABANE : Mr Chairman , thank you very much . Mr Chairman , I want to support the last speaker when he says at least because deductions are 8% instead of 5%. I suggest at least 8%. Mr Chairman , you must understand me . The value of money today is a big competition . For example you know from last year a special fixed deposit was brought in because of the competition . And as such the money institutions have increased their money from 3,5% to 8%. In view of the fact that the pension fund be beneficial to people , we feel that we must also be within the line of those people . I should in fact be saying ten percent but I just felt that because you have already worked out 5% then I just say well 8% is all right . Look at the Lebowa Development Corporation 71/2 if you borrow thier money, I have the honour to tell you that if you borrow the money under current account over draft you pay 13% . And last year I think in January it was 11% and from last month it is 13% on over draft account money, if you borrow on that . I have got evidence of what I am saying Mr Chairman . Probably those who have put this 5% didn't go back into the present value of money . I suggest 8 percent would at least be reasonable . The value of land today is just like the value of money . It goes up every day . There are no more cattle today therefore we must look for money . Money should earn more interest . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman , I believe what is fact would be satisfactory to this House . We deduct 5% and you draw 8%. Yes , Mr Chairman , it is perfectly true that money today has depreciated the rand . etc. It is very difficult to forsee the changes tomorrow . The situation in which we are dealing is dynamic , it is not static at all and is completely irrelevant to circumstances of the next day . We will continue to adjust ourselves just as figures are going to be changed . I did find out what the opposition was right in Cape Town . Cape Town is using 5% and I would certainly not be opposed to the wishes of this House if the House thinks that we should make it 8% . I am not opposed to the improvement of this figure as long as it is reasonable figure . So I would obey the wishes of this House in this regard . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr Chairman , Before this House accepts this Bill , I would like to impart the following words : In accordance with this section a person if a person takes 8 years contributing to the pension fund , when he stops his membership , the money that he has been contributing is paid back to him together with 5% only . That is how I understood it the Hon. Mr Chairman . I see it tiresome to sign for this scheme because the money that I have been contributing should have given me more interest than 5% if I was depositing it somewhere . This contributions is like fixed deposit because one is forced to pay it at any time . Let me not say fixed deposit but subscription shares because both of them bring more interest than this . Therefore I am of theopinion that I better take this money for pension and buy shares with it . One may be unfortunate failing to secure a place again , but the money paid on shares shall have increased . That is why I say that to make our pension scheme more attractive , there should be a higher interest on it and not 5%. Thank you!

47

MR S.P. KWAKWA : I think we mustn't concentrate on one clause at a time , otherwise we will miss the point . We must look through the whole pension scheme as it appears , right through : You see we have now lost the full period . We are not thinking of the advantage that may be derived by those who live longer . Let us just give a hypothetical case . Here is a member A who becomes a member of Parliament at the age of 30. He is lucky to continue up to the age of fourty two when he stops the payment . At the same time he falls out . In twelve years time when he will be 52 , he will have received back all the money he paid into the pension scheme . Let me say at 54 years after that he will be receiving the pension . If God spares him , he lives up to 90 and he has got the right to receive the pension . You see , those are the people we are thinking of. At the time when a man is 70 and can't do anything for himself for his living . The question I asked a little earlier was that with some Departments , I think if you break your pension , you receive an equal amount to what you have contributed . I think the Government must pay an equal amount to what he has contributed . Let us not talk of making comparisons with commercial organisations . These are different because if you have invested R1 000 and you die tomorrow , your family will get R2 000 plus interest whereas if it is a pension , it will continue for much longer time . Elders don't leave this pension . Don't be threatened by anybody . If you leave it you will be sorry in future . MR P.L. KEKANA : I follow everything regarding the pension but my problem is the low percentage . If you have R288 in the pension its interest is R11 per annum and this does not give satisfaction . We modern people are wise , we plan the beginning of the year . I cannot manage paying R24 , as it will affect my monthly budget . You should give us increment before we accept this scheme .

THE CHAIRMAN : chair .

Honourable Member , order !

MR P.L. KEKANA :

I expect eight percent .

Hon . Member , please address the

Thank you !

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr Chairman , the Honourable Mr Kwakwa has explained the clause clearly well and I admire it . I suggest that we should take it . (NOISE ) . THE CHAIRMAN : Order ! Order ! Order! Honourable House , do we accept this section? ( The House agrees ) We go to 2. Honourable House , I think the Chief Minister has agreed on the 8%. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and the Honourable House , it must be understood that the 5% is an arbitrarily minimum figure just like any other figure if it is arbitrary it is subject to change but within the prevailing circumstances , I am not opposed to it . (The section was then accepted and the House proceeded to section 2 ) Chairman reads section 7. Mr J. Phasha, moved that a widow also be included ..

The

MR A.S. MAHLANGU: Mr Chairman , here is one thing! Suppose I was working and I die and my wife was elderly when my wife was supposed to get the old age pension she was told that your husband was working . This was what I saw in practice at Nebo a day before yesterday . It would seem my wife would be refused to get old age pension as they would refer her to the pension that I have contributed when I was a member of Parliament . We must stop this because it is pathetic .

48

KGOŠI T.J. MOTHAPO : The issue of the widow and the widower is not ironed out yet , Mr Chairman . Let us make provision for it because the possibility exists that my wife may join politics while I am at home and she becomes a member of this pension scheme . If she dies before she gets this pension or she dies when she is getting the pension , what shall I , the husband and children subsist on? Should that money just disappear fellowmen? I second Mr M.J. Phasha that we should include widower . MR M.J. PHASHA : Mr Chairman , you must know that we are making that is going to exist for centuries . You know in future we expect to have Mrs Helen Suzman in this Parliament and this Mrs Suzman may be without children but with a husband . Provision must be made so that in case of death of Mrs Suzman , there must be something for the husband . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr Chairman , in all respects I wish not to agree with the previous speaker . If you read further on you will find that if a widow of a pension drawer remarries , she ceases to receive this pension , because now she has someone to look after her . The dependants will receive the pension . If in my case , my wife while drawing a pension and she dies , I can marry . There is the possibility that the money that I draw, I may give to my new wife and leave out the children of the first wife . This is a good law as it is because the dependants of that woman will remain dependants of that woman . If the man who survives the wife , he will marry another woman and may look after one another . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman the point was what happens to the man? I have this suggestion , if we want a provision for the widower we shouldn't put it there , we should put it in the separate clause . With your permission Mr Chairman and the House , I would suggest that we make a new clause providing for the widower as number 18. With your permission , I can read the clause I want to suggest . This would be number 18. May I proceed , Mr Chairman . In this case of a member being a female her widower at the time of her death and from which she was and from whom she was not divorced or separated will after her death be regarded as a beneficiary under the provisions of this Act . I thought that would cover the case of the widow. He becomes a beneficiary under circumstance described . If this is acceptable , Mr Chairman , then it will be a new clause and that will be number 18. and then your present 18 will be 19 and your present 19 will be 20. (It was accepted . ) THE CHAIRMAN : Order ! Just before you speak, before I forget the Hon . Minister of Interior would like to meet the parliamentary committee of the Department of the Interior and Economics Affairs precisely after adjournment . The Hon . the Chief Minister will like to meet all the MP's precisely after adjournment inside this chamber . MR M.J. PHASHA : Mr Chairman , there was an indication which I would like to emphasize that in case of this death applicable in this clause what about if we say the next of kin will benefit out of this fund rather than his money being given to the government .

THE CHAIRMAN :

On that note , this House will adjourn until tomorrow at 9h00 .

THE

HOUSE

ADJOURNED

AT

5h00 .

49

FIFTH SESSION OF THE SECOND LEBOWA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

1977 :

FRIDAY

1ST

APRIL .

OPENING PRAYER .

THE SPEAKER :

We proceed to item two .

KGOši J. MAHLANGU: MR M.T. BOPAPE :

THE SPEAKER :

Mr Speaker , I move for the approval of the minutes .

Mr Speaker , I second him .

Do we accept the minutes?

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker and Honourable Members , regarding the itinerary for the trip to the east , a list will be circulated to the members . A trip is to begin on Tuesday at 6 a.m. I hope that it will be for the members to get the copies of the itinerary today . possible In addition , I want to announce that there would be the Speaker's banquet on the 13th of April , and details will be sent out to the Honourable Members in due course . I only hope that the Honourable Members will make full use of the opportunity to be present at Mr. Speaker's banquet .

THE MINISTER OF HEALTH : Mr Speaker , Sir , it is a great pleasure to announce that a new Hospital is added on the establishment of the Lebowa Department of Health today . The Hospital will start functioning today and will add another 204 beds to our available accommodation . This will give my Department a total control of 14 Hospitals with a total number of 5 141 beds . The Hospital has been named after the Honourable Minister of Agriculture and Forestry and shall be known as the Maphutha-Malatji Hospital . This hospital will serve the people from Namakgale , Makhushane and Mashishimale townships on our accepted principles of a comprehensive health care system Mr Speaker , I would ask to place on record my sincere appreciation towards the Phalaborwa Mining Company which has not only shown active interest in the rendering of high quality health services to our people in the past , but who has also made a generous financial contribution towards the erection of this hospital . Several staff members have been appointed on the establishment of this Hospital and will be waiting anxiously to receive their first patients today . We , however , are still in need of additional doctors to take up offices here . We appeal to our own Black doctors to take up offices here . As you know , Mr Speaker , my department does not discriminate against them but remunerate them on equal salary scales with their white counterparts . My Department is still contemplating an official opening ceremony at a suitable date in the near future and will keep you informed . I thank you, Mr Speaker . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr Speaker and Honourable House , I move that the Bantu Administration Amendment Bill , 1977 be now read for the first time . I also request your permission , Mr Speaker , to table this Bill . HUM..KGATLA; Speaker, I have submitted a request , I don't know whether you allow of reject it .

50 50

THE SPEAKER : Excuse me , Mr Kgatla , let me offer you this opportunity to present your case quickly . MR M.W. KGATLA: Mr Speaker , last year I stood up in this House and congratulated Radio Bantu on the reporting of the deliberations of Parliament . There was the difficulty of communicating with Radio Bantu from Pietersburg to Pretoria but now they are too nearby us . We have so developed that each time when Parliament is in session , even those who cannot read and write , even the blind , when the program of " Lehlokwa la Tsela" is announced , everybody gets next to the Radio to find out what were the deliberations of the day in my Government ; and they enjoy it so . In a way those who were elected , were canvassing through the Radio . I noticed since the day before yesterday that we are now accorded three ainutes up to four minutes of reporting ; and in short , that means to the people outside this House that we have only been deliberating for three up to four minutes . I don't think they still enjoy it so much . When they were still in Pretoria , they used to accord us ten minutes of reporting . With S.A.E.C. in English and Afrikaans , they are according Parliamentary announcement in Cape Town for ten minutes . It is not a mandate , but a request to our media to give us ten minutes of reporting which they used to give us . It is the request of this House that it be done like that as we are waverig and the year is wearing out and it will be a different thing next year . It is a friendly request and we hope you will accept ten minutes . If I give an example of last night's report of three minutes , you will understand me , where it was announced that the Parliament is undertaking a tour to the Eastern Transvaal ; they are getting to Mapulaneng , Naphuno , Phalaborwa and other places . In short it means that they will be at Bolobedu and Sekgosese . Yet we the people who are suffering the boundary question down there and my people only will say " Oh , they are getting to Mapulaneng , they have neglected us ! Mr Speaker , I am requesting that we be helped as you used to help us . If the opportunity arises tonight , they should announce that they will touch Bolobedu and Sekgosese as well .

THE SPEAKER : We thank you , let us carry on . I hope the Radio Bantu people understand our request . Let us carry on with item ten . KGOŠI T.J. MOTHAPO : Give me a little chance please . There is one item that Radio Bantu did not announce on item 8 of our minutes . If you allow me I can speak . Radio announced that I have not made my party clearly known . They omitted the fact that because I was not the leader of that party, the issue was accepted . That is my request for the information of the audience .

THE SPEAKER : I hope the Honourable Member will know that we don't control Radio Bantu . Whatever they announce , we are less concerned and this House cannot force them to go against their principles . KGOŠI T.J. MOTHAPO : Why didn't you say so when the Honourable Mr Kgatla was speaking? I am speaking what is required by law now. Let us leave Radio Bantu affair and continue with our own affairs . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and Honourable Members , in fact I must crave for the indulgence of the Hon . House , I should have made a brief announcement regarding the proceedings of today. It would be easily remembered by, this Honourable House that these days we have problems with petrol and fuel supply

51

According to the provision of law every motorist must have his fuel in his tank by 12h00 midday ; otherwise you will stay two days without fuel . In this circumstance , it is necessary for every motorist to take special care to have his fuel in time . Mr Speaker , Sir , I think we should place the Honourable House in strong position to have their fuel for the weekend . And having regard therefore to this important arrangement , I want to move an unopposed motion that we stop proceedings at 11h00 so as to allow the members an hour to have their petrol rations . MR A.S. MAHLANGU : When I consider this Mr Speaker , that some members are from far places , I forsee them coming late on Monday in great numbers . Can't we device some means of acquiring licence for petrol on Sundays? We are having accommodation here , but at time we are to go home to attend to some problems . We are forced to wake up at 4h00 or 3h00 to come for the Parliamentary session but you find that there is no petrol . That can be easily done as there are our people who obtained such licences for their taxis . THE SPEAKER : Petrol is not a problem as we can go to the Magistrate or police to request for it . MR A.S. MAHLANGU : Since we are presently here at Seshego , for Parliament , when shall we see the magistrate because he closes on friday and we also close on Friday? We want to get assistance through you .

THE SPEAKER : I hope if there is anything which need attention , it is not difficult to give a hand . KGOSI T.J. MOTHAPO : In connection with permits Mr Speaker , they only issue in death cases only . Therefore it is impossible to obtain such a permit unless there is a death case . At the Police Station one has to produce a document from the mortuary or a written report from the Chief to the effect that there is a death case . That is where the difficulty arises .. Thank you , Mr. Speaker! MR H.M. LESHABANE :

Mr Speaker , that is what I wanted to second .

MR J.M. RATALE : Mr Speaker , the Hon . Kgoši Mothapo is correct by so saying . I would suggest that since we have the power to change the standing regulations , we better change our normal time of starting on Monday to two o'clock so that all the people from far can be in the position of acquiring petrol and arrive in time . I request that if the House agrees with me , I be seconded .

MR L.C. MOTHIBA: Mr Speaker , while I want to second the last speaker , I wish we could ask him for a little amendment , to make it wholesome . That is instead of starting at 10h00 in the morning we start at 2.00 p.m ( 14h00 ) but instead of closing at ( 17h00 ) 5.00 p.m. we knock off at 7.45 p.m. ( 19h45 ) Mr Speaker , I think it is not the wish of this Honourable House to stay away from their work with no progress . The point of Friday is very clear and there is nothing that can be done about that If we are really serious to do our work , we will take those two and quarter hours we spend in the morning with no intention of punishing you . MR J.M. RATALE : I agree with Mr Mothiba for having seconded me and make some amendments on the motion. The reason being that even if the House complains , they still come later than the scheduled time even if petrol was

52

not inconvinient to them . That is why I say that I agree with the correction made by the Honourable Member for Thabamoopo , Mr L.C. Mothiba . MR L.G. MATHOLE : Thank you , Mr Speaker , in this circumstance , I would like to request the Honourable House to turn to page 14 of our Rules of Procedure ; that the motion as set forth , Mr Speaker , demands the Honourable House to amend on section 64 I think it is quite agreeable , Mr Speaker , according to the mover and the amendment of the seconder . Mr Speaker , it is quite obvious that if we take away time which is limited in section 64, we have got to recompense it somehow. Now according to their motion , it is very necessary and fit as the liability of this House to create an aspect on time consumption . Procedurally it would result in saying to ourselves that on Monday according to the motion , we are going to start our job at 2 p.m. According to their time calculation they found that if we start at 14h00 , we would have taken the House's time by 2hrs 45 minutes . So it is necessary by compensation on time factor to have two hours added after 14h00 . and it is very necessary because we are using public funds , taxes from our own people then that time must be compensated . And it must be made aware , Mr Speaker , that every Member of this Honourable House is employed for 24 hours round the clock . If there is any unrealistic Honourable Member of this House who does not agree he must immediately resign . Mr Speaker , in this circumstances , I feel now seconding the motion as moved by the Honourable Member from Nebo and seconded by the Honourable Member from Thabamoopo .

THE SPEAKER : Honourable Members , the motion has been put forward and seconded and any one opposed to it may come forward . KGOŠI M.M. MATHABATHA : I am opposed to the motion regarding time . I want to advance sound reasons . From 6h00 , 7h00 , 8h00 , 9h00 is four hours and still we fail to come to Parliament at 10h00 . Even the minimum speed limit can enable you to reach to Parliament punctually . It is not necessary to keep on changing the laws in this House while we have houses to stay in and the going home is a voluntary business . We should not spoil our good Government and I hope most of the people in this House will be opposed to this system . KGOŠI A.S. MOLEPO : wasting of time .

THE SPEAKER :

Mr Speaker, what I could realise here is a sheer

Sorry, the speaker is opposed to the motion , do you second him?

KGOSI A.S. MOLEPO : I second him because we cannot wait for people who are unwilling to come for their work . Those who stay far , should sleep here so that they can be present by 10h00 , and fuel is not a problem as we shall all fill in at 6h00 .

THE SPEAKER : There are two motions on the table and all have been seconded I shall now divide the House . The secretary will count the names . According to Rule 97 ( 3 ) we shall proceed . Those who say we start at 2h00 p.m. until 7.45 p.m. should say yes and those who say we start at 10 a.m. should say "No" . We shall now start . THE TIME FOR VOTING ( THE SECRETARY CALLS NAMES ) MR J.M. RATALE :

Mr Speaker , may I say something?

53 53

THE SPEAKER : I don't allow you to say a thing because we are voting now, unless on a point of order . MR J.M. RATALE : MR L.C. MOTHIBA:

Mr Speaker , as the mover , I wish to withdraw my motion . I being the seconder , I withdraw .

THE SPEAKER : Since the movers have withdrawn , we shall now go further . us continue with item 12 .

Let

MR I.K. MALEBANA : Mr Speaker , let me ask this . Is there any regulation that permits members of this House to obtain permits? I refer to monthly permits .

THE SPEAKER : 12 .

Order!

Order !

According to our order paper we are on item no .

MR S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr Speaker, yesterday I submitted my questions to the Minister of Works . I am appealing for the reply of those questions first . MR SPEAKER : I hope at this juncture the Honourable Members are aware that we are on item no . 12. On the Committee stage of yesterday's Bill . MR S.S. MOTHAPO : THE SPEAKER :

Item 12 is questions .

That he will reply when he is ready to do so .

MR S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr Speaker , we have item 12 on our Order Paper and it says " Questions " and if you are omitting this you must ask us , Mr Speaker , you cannot just rule us out of order .

THE SPEAKER : I hope you are asking the questions which were put forward during the Committee Stage . THE MINISTER OF WORKS : Mr Speaker , let me help this House . I don't know why the questions were directed to me because I have the policy speech of my Department ; I have not yet presented it . I don't know whether I should to be reply to something that I don't know of whereas I am still answerable to what I know. These are not important questions because since I became a member of Parliament they are asked daily . MR M.W. KGATLA :

THE SPEAKER :

On a point of order , Mr Speaker .

Point of order granted .

MR M.W. KGATLA : We thought we shall be guided . We spend money on him to go to Cape Town to learn the procedure . Tuesday and Friday are two days that the Ministers have to answer written questions given them , not necessarilly from their Policy Speeches . He has seen this practically and if he reads he must have read that . He has now to answer the questions if he is ready to answer them . If he is not he must inform the House that he is not and not to tell the House that he does not wish to do so .

THE SPEAKER : It is not wrong when Members of this House ask any question to the Minister . If the Minister is not prepared , he will admit that he will reply the other day . The Hon . Minister of Works has received questions and he will reply them the other day when he is prepared . The Honourable Minister will reply you in the Cape Town manner of replying . THE MINISTER OF WORKS : I will reply you in the Cape Town manner of replying . I will reply to your question when I am ready to do so .

54

THE SPEAKER : Is there any written question to the Minister? Question 13 (1 ) has been treated . Question 13 (b ) is in connection with the Committee Stage of yesterday's Bill . The Chairman will take the chair . The committee Stage of the Lebowa Pension bill of 1977 . THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable Members , the House is now in Committee . start from where we left yesterday .

We shall

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and Honourable Members , I think it is opportune time to speak on two ites straght away . It would be recalled by the Honourable Members that when clause 6 ( 1 ) was discussed yesterday , the Honourable House thought that the provision of allowing 8% instead of 5% would be more beneficial I personally indicated that I had no objection to this kind of improvement and thereafter have contact with Pretoria to find out , we picked up our problem . The procedure is that in all financial matters , we must first consult with the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development who in turn must consult the Minister of Finance . If we don't follow that procedure , the Bill will be thrown back to us because the State President won't sign it . Past experience Honourable Members , had shown that Bills passed here were returned by Pretoria on the score that they had financial implications an Pretoria had not been accordingly consulted . I am afraid of being confronted with the similar situatior as we had in the past . If we raise the percentage from 5 to 8 , then it means more money; and we therefore cannot do without consulting Pretoria as far as I know; Pretoria with its inflation things in the air , is not going to be prepared to increase the financial burdens on it ; and unless we want this thing back to us , I believe to review the situation afresh . Pretoria of course , was quite prepared with his 5% as I say we inquired what the practice was in Cape Town in this particular situation and Cape Town says that they are of course having 5% and that is how we could also do the same . So I think , Mr Chairman , Sir, of merely inviting the attention of the Hon . House to the fact that we have snags here and it would be advisable for the House to review the situation . It doesn't always pay . Once bitten twice shy. And , consequently Mr. Chairman , Sir , we have experience in the past where Pretoria was hacked in financial matters and we had not the inflation which we are having today , but now with today's inflation , I forsee that we will have tremendous problems with Pretoria if we have to increase financial burdens in this connection . Tied up with this problem again , was the problem of the widower . We again sounded Pretoria as to what the position would be with this additional clause of the widower . They said this involves financial implications and the procedure is that we had first of all to consult with the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development and he had to go and consult with the Minister of Finance . So , again if we have to go on with this addition , we must only do so with the co-operation and with the active support of the Minister of Bantu Administration and the Minister of Finance . They had financial burdens I involved in this addition and we are finding ourselves in the snags . gathered from the legal people that it is unlawful that a woman must support a man , because the man is always the head of the family and he has to carry the responsibility of the head of the family ; not a woman. In this connection , I will expect our legal colleagues here to give us more light in this regard ; in the customary law, and private law and international law, whether a woman can become a man and a man become a woman .

55

ee are now two existing situations viz . the legal and the financial situations . We cannot go ahead with this because we had to consult Pretoria and unless Pretoria is accepting our views , they will Chrow back this Bill to us . I am sorry Mr Chairman , that we didn't consult Pictoria immediately but it occurred to us as we proceeded that we must Find out what Pretoria has to say in connection with what we are doing here t't we do.'t go too far out ; and correct ourselves in time .

M Chairman , Sir this .

this is the position and I would like to get guidance over

THE HAIRMAN : Honourable House , we thank the Chief Minister for making it to as clear tha after certain consultations , they realised there were confrontacions on the 8% as well as on the widower . It is now the responsibility of this House . MR H.M. LESHABANF : With the explanation we got from the Chief Minister in when we got trust that he would persue the matter with the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development , Mr Botha and the Treasury in Pretoria , so we have no choice but to accept the 5%. And from many papers that I have read, I remember that the question of supporting a man by a woman is unlawful . Even when I was in the Department of Pensions and Welfare and other Organisations that this is not possible . I thus should say that we accept the document as it is and forget about the widower , forget about the 8% but i suggest that the Chief Minister and the Cabinet should persue our aspirations with the organisations concerned . KGOŠI T.J. MOTHAPO : Thank you , Mr Chairman . On the item dealing with 5% I agree with the Honourable Mr Leshabane but I disagree with him on the point of a widower . How can Pretoria encourage bigamy or polygamy but refus the widower from receiving pension moneys from his dead wifes's previous employers?

THE CHAIRMAN : Order ! Order! On this note I shall call upon the Speaker to come and close the proceedings . THE SPEAKER : Order ! Since it was moved that we close at 11h00 we shall now come to the end of our deliberations until on Monday at 10h00 .

THE

HOUSE

ADJOURNS .

56

1977 : MONDAY APRIL THE 4TH .

THE SPEAKER :

Honourable Memb

we will proceed to item two .

MR P.L. KEKANA . Mr Speaker , I move that the minutes are a true record and should be adopted .

MR M.W. KGAILA : Mr Speaker , before I second the adoption of the minutes , I weald like item 12 to be corrected . Item 12 reads something like this : "No questions were replied to as there were none" It is not correct , because there were questions handed over the previous day to the Minister of Works ; unfortunately he was not ready to answer the questions . If that part be corrected therefore Mr Speaker , I will second the adoption of the minutes . THE SPEAKER : I believe we will act according to your request ; corrected . You have therefore seconded him? MR M.W. KGATLA : THE SPEAKER :

it will be

Yes , Sir!

Thank you , we proceed to item three ;

four ;

five ; six .

MR A.S. MAHLANGU: I have a request to make because we were told on Friday that we would begin at 10 o'clock . Now I want to know why we did not begin at 10 o'clock . For , our people outside know that we start at 10 o'clock , yet in practice it is not so . We start at about 11 o'clock . I want an explanation on this point . THE SPEAKER : Honourable Member , we are on item 5 and it states "written request . " It does not mean that members can just stand up and talk . In reply to your request , the regulation require that we start at 10 o'clock . On the other hand there is nothing we can do because there is no form of penalty we can apply to late- comers . What is a fact is that people know that we are always late on Mondays . Everything depends on the Honourable House whether we want to turn this habit into a rule that every Monday we come late . Hon . Lesiba Mothiba! MR L.C. MOTHIBA : I want to suggest that this Honourable House resolve that Members that do not come at 10h00 a.m. that certain amount be deducted from their allowances . And I want to move here and now that we deduct an amount of R3 from their daily allowances . In fact it was not necessary , Mr Speaker, to take this step but seeing that the deliberations of this House are delayed by the late comings of the members of this House then I feel it is necessary that we take that step . I hereby move , Mr Speaker! THE SPEAKER : Now as your motion is being moved without notice , just write it down and hand it to the table . Who seconds him?

KGOŠI E.S. PHAAHLA : This matter has two sides , Mr Speaker . Mothiba's motion is not being objected to ; but at certain times you find that at 10h00 the Cabinet is holding a brief meeting in the Chief Minister's office . How do you come out of that? At other time it is the Speaker who is held up in the Chief Minister's office .

ve b be R: 36 So tha 1 100 Goold b TMC v- but not secondcc .. E.S. PAAHT :

KGC ‫' יד‬

SPLAN

the same way a other members sterling, tim . Now then it

I second , Sin!

been moved and secc., ed .

th

Now we proc ed .

KGOŠI M MOGASHOA : Mr Speak , I suggest befo - this motion could be seconded we should be 've well stated reason ...... THE SPEAKER : Jrder ! 0.der ! The point is that it has been moved and seconded and there is no counter proposal . KCOSI M.E. MOGASHOA Mr Speaker , the penalty of R3 is too heavy, is too Lig. Moreover , Speaker , if you look a 10h00 while we were here , the bell was not rung... THE SPEAKER : Order ! Order ! I would like to know if you agree with the motion or you counter propose .

•

KGOŠI M.E. MOGASHA: I propose R2 .

THE SPEAKER :

I disagree in so far as the penalty of R3 is concerned

Who seconds him?

MR S.S. MOTHAPO :

I second him.

THE SPEAKER : Now, please expatiate a bit on the subject . There are two motions on the table . One is for R2 and the other for R3 . Hon . S.S. Mothapo . MR S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr Speaker , I need your protection . The Hon . Lesiba Mothiba is attacking me . He has not been given the floor . He was given the floor and misused it. Thank you! In the very first place we are elected to this House because the electorate has got confidence enough . Secondly , Mr Speaker , I believe each and every member of this Legislative Assembly is a highly responsible person . Therefore , he cannot come late without a very good reason . It is common sense that we as Members of Parliament know that we start at 10 a.m. , and we have to comply with that time because it is part of our responsibility . Now, Mr Speaker , according to the rules of procedure we do not have stipulated fines for being absent from this House , that affects our allowances and my monthly salary . So why do we overload ourselves with fines Mr Speaker? I think , Mr Speaker , the only thing that the Honourable Members of this House were supposed to do was just simply to provoke us to think that we should keep time . We should be punctual . And this question of fines , Mr Speaker , I hundred percent disagree with it .

THE SPEAKER : Eh ! Eh ! Order Honourable Member ! Before you proceed , a member mentioned that there is a rule regarding the punishing of a late coming member . Let him show us that section . Order!

Order !

Order !

MR S.S. MOTHAPO : I'm sorry , Mr Speaker , according to the constitution, if I am absent for the day....

52

THE SPEAKER :

No man, " if you are absent , " but if you are La

MR S.S. MOTHAPO: for that......

Well , I am not confusing issues .

Th

? 1y a fine

THE SPEAKER: Eh , Order ! Order! That Honourable member is out of order; please sit down . Now , Honourable Members , here we are talking about late coming . Now we want to know the opinion c e House in the case of one purposely coming late . It means when you fail to form a quorum , more than half of the House is not in here . Now , Honourable E.M. Maloma . MR E.M. MALOMA : It speaks for itself that if the member: cannot keep their own time a penalty such as this will have to be imposed . Here we have with us Honourable chiefs who respect their people , who know that while If he they are sitting here they are known to have come to the meeting does not come on time he is guilty . Just there , Mr Speaker , it is selfexplanatory that the members purposely come late and not on stipulated time . There is no stipulation that this House cannot carry on with its proceedings if the Ministers are not in . There , Mr Chairman , we agree that the fine suggested will be used to dissuade the late coming of the members . Let that fine be adopted . THE SPEAKER : proposed?

Let us be clear .

(ALL MEMBERS SAY : THE SPEAKER :

" R3 !

Which one of the fines because two have been

R3 ! "

Honourable A.S. MOLEPO!

KGOŠI A.S. MOLEPO : Mr Chairman , on this matter under discussion I find that the discussion on the matter of imposing a fine on members who do not come on time , I find this matter not clear . THE SPEAKER : Eh! Order! There are two motions here . doing, you are adding a third one . KGOSI A.S. MOLEPO : it . THE SPEAKER :

I am bringing in a third one .

Now what you are

I will give reasons for

Let us hear it!

KGOŠI A.S. MOLEPO : The reason is this that while we are in here we must remember that we have chiefs who head tribes at home . Now we shall be closing on Friday and there at home we are to find a lot of problems . Now it is difficult that on Monday we should just leave everything unsettled , rush over here , so that we should arrive in time ; for in connection with cases you found over the weekend , some people rush very early on Monday to us ; that before we leave they must find us at home . When you intend arriving there on time , on the way you are delayed by some unexpected happenings . It is not at all understandable that after leaving here on Friday we should be fined if we fail to arrive here in time on Monday , if we take such matters into consideration . On this matter I think the important thing is that we ourselves should agree that , except where a member is held up , we should try to be on time on Monday . Just now we in here can decide to start at 10 a.m. but it may happen that the Cabinet may not be present , even though they had not intended , since on Mondays there is generally something that compels them to meet before 10 a.m .. You may find that at 10 a.m. they are not able to attend . Now you must know there won't be any quorum. Notice that their

59

absence is the absence of members , which they are . THE SPEAKER :

Order !

KGOŠI A.S. MOLEPO : When the Secretary looks around to see if there are en enough members , they also as members may not be in . In that way they are like those who have gone to their homes . What is known is that the man who came late will report to the Secretary what had held him . I am certain that there is no one who can just come late without something delaying him. There is a reason why I stand counter to the motion which aims at penalising us . I say we should not be penalised but we must just exhort one another that we should try to arrive here on time . THE SPEAKER : Order! Order! Order! Do you see Honourable Kgoši Molepo , ... you have spoken something ; something about dikgoši , you speak. that they did this , that and the other . Dikgoši are bound by the law of this Parliament when it concerns the law , it does not matter , kgoši or no kgoši , he is a member of Parliament ; we are all equal here . We say at 10 , you come at 10. You have bound yourself to come to this Parliament and subject yourself to the law of Parliament . I wanted to remark about your concern about dikgoši when we are in here . We do not speak that way . Now I wish to know . I say there are two motions here . One has lapsed . Now then... KGOŠI A.S. MOLEPO :

THE SPEAKER :

Now, I move that ...

Will you please sit down .

Honourable

Kgatla .

MR M.W. KGATLA : Mr Speaker , last year when we were from the study Group . I think it was for the Chief Minister , I found that it had been decided that a rule was to be made that when the dikgoši have come late , they should be fined . I objected . That is why that rule did not operate last year . I got so much annoyed that I don't even attend that study group any longer because even now , if I happen to come late on Monday what will be the determination ; the determining factor that I did not come late deliberately . THE SPEAKER :

Order !

MR M.W. KGATLA :

Order!

Order!

..... What ...... if

I got a puncture on the road?

THE SPEAKER : Order , Honourable Member ! What I want to know Honourable Member , is which of the two motions do you support . MR M.W. KGATLA : There is none I support , I even want to point out the problem connected with section 64 of the Rules of Procedure . Perhaps this can help us , Mr Speaker .

THE SPEAKER : Now if you mention section 64 I wish you had stood on a point of order so that I could pay attention to you . MR M.W. KGATLA : Mr Speaker , I was debating , giving my views why I do not even accept any of the two proposals which perhaps can help this House immediately , if you allow me to say that Mr Speaker . In short , Mr Speaker , I am not interested in the fines , but I want to alliviate the problem of fines .

THE SPEAKER : Honourable Member , if you do not agree with any one of the two and you want to make another motion do so and proceed .

09

60

MR M.W. KGATLA : It is so , Mr Speaker , I do not agree with any of these . I now want to put forth a motion and my motion will stand under section 64 of the Rules of procedure : that on Mondays we start at 2 o'clock and knock off at 5 o'clock and here is the provision under section 64 : "1 Mr Speaker , protect me from the "Unless the Legislative ..... assistant whip . He is wasting my time and his own and the time of Lebowa .

THE SPEAKER :

You are protected .

MR M.W. KGATLA : Thank you! " Unless the Legislative Assembly, otherwise resolves it will it is exactly where I want the Legislative Assembly to resolve - particularly on Mondays . You can read the section as such but my interest is down here : "provided that the Assembly make an adoption of a motion by a Minister to be adopted immediately without amendment or debating , shorten .......... or prolong the sitting having regard to the amount of business to be dispatched or to be circumstances prevailing at the time . (Interruption ) Tell the young whip to shut up , Mr Speaker . Mr Speaker !

THE SPEAKER : Language ! Language ! Proceed but , Eh ! ..... Honourable Member has used unparliamentary language : "shut up. " MR M.W. KGATLA :

THE SPEAKER :

I withdraw that one , Mr Speaker .

Go on .

Order !

MR M.W. KGATLA : So , Mr Speaker , the whole problem here can be ourselves . We can shorten the sitting on Mondays , by starting 2 o'clock and end 5 without fining anybody . So , what is it of people unnecessarily when you have got a law in your hand that here .

(THE HOUSE : THE SPEAKER :

No!

No! )

Order ....

MR L.C. MOTHIBA :

THE SPEAKER :

No !

solved by at fining you can use

Point of order!

Point of order granted .

MR L.C. MOTHIBA : Thank you, Mr Speaker, we are here busy with the people that come late and not with fine , the period of starting and finishing off of the Legislative Assembly . So , the Honourable speaker , Mr Mohale Kgatla is out of order . Lets ' discuss what happens when a man comes late . And we must be very clear to the Honourable Members there that we say , " without good reasons . " It must be very clear and that's what we are busy with not with the period of starting and finishing off . He mustn't mislead us and try to get us off the line . MR M.W. KGATLA: Point of order , Mr Speaker , he deliberately just wanted to waste my time and the time of this House .

THE SPEAKER :

Order !

MR M.W. KGATLA:

Order !

Business means time .

THE SPEAKER : Order ! Look Honourable Members write me your motions and bring them to the table . You should also realise that we are going to an hour on this matter . Now give me your motions and bring give only them to the table so that they can be read and we proceed .

61

MR M.W. KGATLA :

Mr Speaker , I was on the floor .

THE SPEAKER : 0.k. Will both members , please sit down . Mohale William Kgatla .

Eh!

Honourable

MR M.W. KCATLA: Thank you , Mr Speaker , Sir . It depends from what school you have attended if you cannot understand a simple reason like this . If you are late , it affects time . And ....

THE SPEAKER :

Order!

Order !

Order !

MR M.W. KGATLA : And if you are ...... I asking a question ...... How can you determine whether I have deliberately come late or had something on the way that has delayed me to come here .... THE SPEAKER :

Order!

KGOŠI M.E. MOGASHOA :

Eh .....the Hon . Kgatla's motion has not been seconded

I stand to second him .

THE SPEAKER : He will therefore proceed . him proceed . MR M.W. KGATLA :

As you have seconded him, let

Thank you, Mr Speaker , Sir !

THE SPEAKER : Honourable member for Sekhukhuneland , Kgoši M.E. Mogashoa , are you standing on a point of order? KGOŠI M.E. MOGASHOA: THE SPEAKER :

Yes , Sir .

What's your point of order?

KGOŠI M.E. MOGASHOA : Mr Speaker , without wasting the time of this Hon . House , I have an idea of going back to that motion which was moved by the Honourable Mr Mothiba . If you examine closely the reason given here is that dikgoši have pressing work at home . That is not true . Mr Speaker , we are all members of this House . We are all under one obligation , that we should start at 10h00 .... MR M.W. KGATLA :

Mr Speaker , but what is your order ther?

KGOŠI M.E. MOGASHOA : Now it is obvious , Mr Speaker , that any one violating this section should face a penalty . The spirit prevailing in here that there should be no penalty is not true . It will only bring forth something in the future . It will just bring more difficulties .

THE SPEAKER:

Order!

KGOŠI M.E. MOGASHOA :

Honourable member , what is your point of order? Mr Mothiba , we agree .

MR M.W. KGATLA : Now what is your order? Mr Speaker , I was still on the ground and he wasted our time on a useless point of order which is not even existing . Mr Speaker , Sir , I asked a question when I stood up here and said what is the determining factor that will prove that I did not come late deliberately? And somebody just stood up to waste our time again and said " on sound reasons . " How will you determine the " sound reasons"?

THE SPEAKER : Order ! I asked you to give me your motions so that I can read them before you proceed .

62

MR L.C. MOTHIBA : Mr Speaker , under the present position there is only one motion . There is only one motion moved by me and one motion moved by the Honourable Kgoši and now we have merged . We agreed to one motion . In fact there is only one motion left now . MR M.W. KGATLA : I have moved one motion and it was seconded by Kgoši Molepo and that is the motion that I am busy debating right now.

THE SPEAKER : Honourable Members , give me your papers that I may see . Now here there is only motion in front of me . Now I will ask the Secretary to read so that you can hear . ( THE SECRETARY : I hereby move that whenever an Honourable Member of the Legislative Assembly is late for the commencement of the deliberations of this House , without good reasons he should be fined an amount of R3 for that day . Mover : L.C. Mothiba ( Thabamoopo ) Seconder: Kgoši E.S. PHaahla ( Nebo ) . ) THE SPEAKER : Now we proceed to discuss this motion . It has been moved and seconded that it should be R3 . Now let us proceed with it . I am not blocking others which may be proposed but , we proceed with this one . MR IM. MODJADJI : Thank you , Mr Speaker . I also affirm the motion moved by the Honourable Mothiba . Just now Mr Speaker , if I tell you that I do not want Bantu Education and you answer that if I do not want Bantu Education in other words education has not changed only the name has changed . Mr Speaker the members come late while we start at 10 o'clock , they will come late even if we started at 2 o'clock . The only remedy is a fine for late comers even should we start at 2 o'clock . Mr Speaker , members come late We make a rule that will because they know there is no fine. affect all of us as members of the Legislative Assembly . Now we make this rule so that it should be easy for other people ; in other words I support this motion .

THE SPEAKER : Honourable Members , let's be relevant . What is on the table is that a person who comes late is to be fined R3,00 . Now this is the matter which we all must discuss . Now there is a motion here brought ..... signed by Mr Kgatla and Kgoši Molepo . It says nothing about the matter under discussion . We will request that it should be read . Watch the time is going . We are about to close . We will request him to read . Order! ( THE SECRETARY : "I move that on Mondays the House of the Legislative Assembly start sitting at 2 p.m. and adjourn at 5 p.m. Signed Mr M.W. KGATLA ( mover ) and Kgosi A. S. Molepo ( seconder ) . ) THE SPEAKER : Now this motion is not on what we want . Here we say if a person has come late , he should be penalised to the amount of R3 . That is the motion we have here . Honourable Hex Modjadji . MR H.M. MODJADJI : Mr Speaker , I am just being surprised by the matter which comes to us at the end of the fifth year , the motter of time . For the last four years we have been starting at 10h00 . Lately last Friday we quarrelled about 2 o'xlock . Now today we want to change the time . Where are we leading to? Even to keep all these times we are not satisfied , we impose a fine of R3 . A man may just think that to lose R3 on Monday is nothing very important . You may come to find an Honourable Member had been held up by a case from half past five in the morning whereas he has to arrive here at 10h00 . He may not have a telephone . People are not the same . Now, my request is this : I want you to help us and to help this Honourable House by stating what in reality we want . Do we want to pay R3 or to keep the time we have been keeping for the four years , 10h00 or do we just want to change?

63 63

I think if we had noticed that 10h00 is not a suitable time , we should have started imposing fines in 1973. By now we would not be worried , we would just be proceeding with all matters . I do not know whether by imposing a R3 you think that will make us gather in time or whether it will change us into time respecting people . I think the R3 indicates that we the Honourable Members of this House do not respect time . Four years have past in which we were not imposing any fine Now that we are going towards the end of the fifth year , we impose R3's upon ourselves to give an impression that we are enthusiastic workers , people who respect time while we are depriving ourselves of three rands . Honourable House , I warn you not to waste time by talking about time . For four years we were starting at 10h00 . Now on the last year we impose R3 are we trying to show that we can keep time? As far as I can see we were not being sincere , we were cheating this 10h00 for this last four years . It is not the first time that remarks were made about keeping time . This has happened several times . Even in the radio ..

THE SPEAKER :

Order!

MR H.M. MODJADJI :

Order!

Order !

Thank you sir!

THE SPEAKER : WE have here only one motion that the fine should be R3 . All what is being discussed here is not helping us . Now here what I have is one which requires that there should be only one motion which the House may proceed to discuss whether it is agreed or it is not agreed and if it is agreed we shall proceed . NOISE ) Order ! Order ! Order ! (NOISE Honourable J. Phasha , Order ! Order! Order! Let me conclude my argument , Mr Speaker .

MR H.M. MODJADJI : THE SPEAKER :

Order !

Order !

MR H.M. MODJADJI : Is there a point of order , Mr Speaker . I do not believe I have concluded my argument . If I was out of order ........ MR SPEAKER : Order! 3. If you oppose , oppose it .

Look Honourable Member the motion on the table say then bring a countermotion to

MR H.M. MODJADJI :

oppose it .

THE SPEAKER :

I would not bring a motion Mr Speaker .

Proceed , Mr Phasha .

MR M.J. PHASHA : Mr Speaker , we ..... we .... we must be aware that we are not all keen to work in this House . MR M.W. KGATLA:

THE SPEAKER :

Who are

you?

Order!

MR M.J. PHASHA : Among us there are lazy people and they will remain lazy amongst ourselves . The allowance we get is because we have worked . The one who has not worked , why should he claim the allowance? If you have not worked for three hours , why should you want an allowance for those three hours?

64

Is there any fairness in the man who worked for six hours to earn the same salary? I feel , Mr Speaker , if a man is lazy .....With those reasons I feel it is quite proper that those who have not worked for an hour should not get full allowance . Mr Speaker , you will be surprised that the lazy ones are the people who like money very much ( LAUGHTER ) If you let this motion pass you will see , they will all be present at 10h00 . By so saying I refer to those who oppose it . They will never lose R3 , not ever one day . That will be proof that they are just protecting laziness . We have only one motion on the table . On that motion let's proceed . I said to my Honourable friend that he was moving an irrelevant motion . I was trying to tip him but he just moved it irrelevantly as it is . So I advise , Mr Speaker , that we carry on because we have got only one motion which is agreed upon .

THE SPEAKER : Honourable Members , now what I have here in front of me is only one motion . Should I proceed with it , is it all right? (YES !

NO!

YES !

NO! )

Order ! Order ! Order! Order ! Honourable Members there is only one motion here . It has no counter motion . Now do we proceed with it , is it carried ! Eh? ( No ......... No )

Honourable we are going on with the programme ...... ( No ! No ! Yes ! No ! Yes ) Order! Order! Order! Honourable Members , if you want to speak you just stand . I will give you time . Don't just make noise , sitting down . Wait a minute . I allow no one to speak . Now sit down Honourable Member , Will you sit down? Now we have here only one motion proposing R3 if a person has come late . I would like to know from the House whether the House agrees that we should proceed . As far as discussion is concerned you have spoken it is enough. You have spoken . For a long time you have been it . In the absence of a counter I want to know if you say it discussing is alright it should be R3 . (YES !

YES !

NO! )

Now there are those who say "yes " and there are those who say "no . " Now you have discussed it fully . Now the "yeses " are more it means it is carried .

(NO!

NO !

NO!

YES ! )

Wait a minute ! Order! Order! Honourable Members the time is over and we proceed . Thirty minutes are over . We are no longer proceeding with this motion . No one should say anything about it . There is only one motion here . Order! Order! MR L.C. MOTHIBA : According to the Rules of Procedure rule no . 94 , " Every question before the Legislative Assembly or Committee therefore shall be dicided by a majority of votes of the members present other than the Speaker who shall - exercise a casting vote in case of an equality of votes and an reason stated by him therefore shall be entered in the votes and proceedings . "

95 says : "When the Speaker calls upon question to the Legislative Assembly for its decision , he shall call upon those in favour to say " Yes " and those against to say " No " . After the question has been put and the Speaker has indicated whether in his opinion the "Yeses " or the " No's " have it any member may demand a ballot whereupon a ballot shall subject to subrules ( 2 ) and ( 3 ) take place without debate . "

65

THE SPEAKER : Now, Honourable Members , it is clear that there are the "'Yes's" and the " No's " . Now following the procedure I have not seen that there are any four who demand a ballot . Yes , there are onlythree who demand a ballot .

(Yes !

Yes ! )

Order! Honourable Members will sit down . Now Now I decide . Order we will ask the Secretary to issue out the ballot papers so that we may conclude . Order! Order! Now we have decided . Now I do not allow it any longer . Yes ! We are going for the ballots . The rule requires that there should be four members demanding a ballot . Now four have demanded and so we proceed with the ballot in terms of the law . Honourable Members , ( Noise ) Order ! Now please listen . Order! Order! Now the House will be quiet as we call out the names . ( THE HOUSE :

They must ring the bell )

THE SPEAKER : Thank you Honourable Member . Let us proceed . Order ! Order! Ring the bell to make sure everybody is inside . (Noise! The Speaker caused the bell to be rung ) Order! Now...... Order ! I will not allow any noise now. You are doing it purposely . I will send out anyone who makes noise . Anyone who starts I will drive him out of the House . Now let us proceed . Now those who say a person who comes late shall be fined R3 say "Yes . " Those who say they object to the fine of R3 say " No " . Now I will repeat . Those who say a person who comes late without a reason will be fined R3 say "Yes " . Those who say they object to the fine of R3 say " No" . Now the House will be quiet . There should be no noise in here . Honourable Member may go out . Now we shall c call out the names . The House will be quiet now .

(THE SECRETARY READ THE NAMES :-) THE SPEAKER : It is either "yes" or " No " . Yes this R3 ! Order !

Order!

Order!

What is it Kgoši ?

If there is any one whose name we did not call , he should report . Let us now listen to the results . Those who say " No" are 32 and those who say "Yes " are 25 ( Noise ) Order! Order! Now, then we proceed with item six , item seven . MR M.W. KGATLA : Mr Speaker , I was ..... THE SPEAKER : Honourable Member , I believe this affects the Chief Minister or other Ministers . Item eight . MR M.W. KGATLA :

On item eight I would like to give some comments .

"HE SPEAKER : That is for the Speaker , it does not affect you, Honourable Member. (LAUGHTER ) .

THE MINISTER OF HEALTH : Mr Speaker , Sir , I hereby give notice of my intention to introduce a Bill to substitude part 4 of the Nursing Act , 1957 (Act No. 69 of 1957 ) . This Bill is to provide for the establishment of the Lebowa Nursing Association ; the explanatory memorandum accompanies the Bill , the Cabinet having been informed of the intention and the request that the Lebowa Nurses recommend it for consideration by the Legislative Assembly . THE SPEAKER :

Now, we will proceed .

No. 11.

No. 12 .

66 39

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker, Sir , Honourable Members , I now wish to table the Lebowa Appropriation Bill , 1977 and move that it be read for the first time . In this Bill the House is requested to appropriate a sum of R69 135 000 towards the requirements of Lebowa for the Financial y ending 31st March 1978. A broad outline of how the money will be allocated is given in the schedule to the Bill but full particulars are reflected in the estimates of the revenue to be collected and expenditure to be defrayed during the year ending 31st March 1978 , which I will table tomorrow when I also intend to deliver my budget speech and to propose the second reading to this Bill . Mr Speaker , Sir! THE SPEAKER :

Eh , under 12 1 ( b ) .

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr Speaker and Honourable Members of this House , in moving the second reading of the Bantu Administration Act Amendment Bill , 1977 , please allow me to call the attention of this Honourable House to the request last year by members of this Honourable House that the equivalent sale of a livestock in this section B , be raised from R20 to R100 . If this Bill is approved of, it would mean that a kgoši could impose a maximum fine of R200 or two heads of a livestock or 10 heads of a small stock . It does of course not mean that he has to impose a fine of R200 , he may just not exceed it . I think the explanation is clear , Mr Speaker , and I move that this Bill be read now for the second time . Mr Speaker , Sir! THE SPEAKER : Honourable Members , we aught to proceed with the Bill , but now I do not have the papers . Now, Honourable House , I believe you now have the copy of this Bill . If that is the case , let us discuss the merits and principles of the Bill . MR M.W. KGATLA : Mr Speaker , I see there was only a selection of section 20 of the Bantu Administration Act No. 38 of 1927. It was only section 20 subsection 2 that ...... the ...... proposer of this Bill ( b ) wanted to amend . I was waiting for the Minister concerned to tell us what came into his mind when he said he wanted to change this Act , this section ; but as far as he has been expatiating he has not said anything that can try to provoke our thoughts so that we find out what made him to run away from £ 20 ( R40 ) to £ 100 ( R200 ) . In the Act itself it was determined that a head of ..... ... eh .....a beast was worth £ 10 so that they were limited to chiefs to can impose a fine of two cattle which comes to £ 20 . As he now determines that a head of cattle is now £ 100,00 because we realise that he says from £ 20 you must go up to £ 100,00 or two head of cattle again . He is ex -Minister of Agriculture who should know better . I think he was going along on visits and saw how cattle were being bought . At the last auction which was in our area they were buying cattle at from £ 12 . The least they could pay was £ 12 . What is the basic principle that our yardstick is? The Minister has put a proposal here to determine that a head of cattle should be £ 100 . If we can get such an explanation , it is only a matter of one section here and we shall dispose of the Bill .

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr Speaker and the Honourable House , I am not going to flow like water . There was a request in the last year's session , that seeing that in these days there is not much money ...... I mean since there are no longer fines after judgment of cases ..... that is ...fines are not equal , please understand ; also that in the older days dikgosi were not allowed to fine a person more than £ 20 or two head of full grown cattle in such cases ; I have understood the question of the member. He wants to know how the Minister was able to get away from £ 20 to £ 100 . The

; prevailing idea , Honourable Members , is that in connection with fines there is no longer a beast which costs £ 20 or R40 . I notice , Honourable Members , that these days cattle are bought for more than that . That is where the idea sprang up that in the case of fines it would be better that dikgoši or indunas should judge the cases according to the merits of the case and should , as in the olden days , impose a fine of £ 100.00 or two beasts . This affects the judgment of the dikgoši in their courts . The main reason , the Honourable House , should understand , is that there are no cattle worth R40 . All are worth above that . I do not know if my language is very clear but there are no beasts which can be bought for R40 . That is where sprang an idea that they should be raised . They should go up . If they be small stock , that is ; goats , they should be ten goats . But the House should not forget that it is this House which requested for this matter last year . This request was referred to the Department of Justice recommending this decision in cases where the fine should be two beasts or R200 . THE SPEAKER :

Honourable , Andries Mahlangu !

MR A.S. MAHLANGU: Honourable Mr Speaker , I want to get into this matter . The first thing that I want to mention is that this money is alright for these reasons : You know that these days our children stab one another with knives . They hurt one another with knives and so the money cannot be the same . I was present in this House when we requested that fines imposed on people who were declared guilty at the offices of the dikgoši should be increased . Each one of the dikgoši knows that the Lebowa Government has increased the power of the dikgoši . There is no beast these days which can be bought for R25 or R10 at this present time . The price of a beast ranges from R100 up to R300 . That means if you are fined two beasts or that R100 , you just can sell one beast and give them R200 and that is all . It is also the same with the delivering of Lobola . We use money . I just take one big ox and sell it for R300 and give to those people . I have in actual fact delivered lobola with one beast . They say it is ten head of cattle . Those who oppose this Bill are the people who still find difficulties , who also do not attend to the meetings of the tribes . We are all expensive these days , also these fines must be raised and let them go high . You also find that at the magistrates court you are sentenced to three years imprisonment . Now what is R200? I agree with this Bill . This House agrees with it . It is only the Honourable Mr Kgatla who does not agree ( Laughter ) .

THE SPEAKER :

Honourable F. Mametja !

MR M.F. MAMETJA : Mr Speaker , I stand to support this Bill because we spoke about it in this very House last year . There is only one thing that surprises me . We make laws and then we change . I do not know what kind of people we are . What we must know is that we are not children . We are men . We have come here to make laws . Last year we agreed that dikgoši should be given greater powers , in this very house . We also emphasized that a heast should be equivalent to R105 . If they are two it will be R200 . As one speaker has already said there is no beast worth R100 . Cattle cost from R150 to R250 one . What makes my heart sore is that it appears we have come here to play for we decide on a matter , and then later on we change . We are like thieves . This law is very suitable . I affirm it imphatically .

889

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KGOSI E: M . CHILOANE : Mr Speaker , on this matter I agree with the last speaker . For last year we discussed this matter and we agreed on it . Now if we agreed on these fines in the way we say then , we will be playing on the same place if we begin to find fault with them . I am certain that when we asked for this that dikgoši should be looked after we meant that fines in the tribal courts should be raised . Since we are not yet allowed to decide on higher cases , we get arrested if we did . This is a very good thing that we should be given additional powers . Thank you!

KGOŠI M.E. MOGASHOA: I thank you , Mr Speaker ! Mr Speaker , last year this House criticised the 1927 Act very much . Mr Speaker , you will remember that it was this House as a whole which agreed on a maximum of R200 . Now, Mr Speaker , we are just wasting time . As far as I am concerned , this is the matter we conducted last year . Now when it appears again we receive it . It would be better if a third stage was being moved . As it is we are just making repetition of last year's work . I propose that we proceed to a third stage . KGOŠI P.S. PHASHA : Mr Speaker , I think the whole House remembers that we talked about this matter last year . The House knows that the question of two beast is nothing new . The maximum fine of two beasts in the judgment of dikgoši is a matter which is very well known . Maybe , there are those who get confused by the mention of two beasts . Dikgoši are allowed to impose a maximum fine of two head . Maybe they think these two beasts are taken by the kgoši . The two beasts are a fine on the case which has been discussed and decided . They are given to the complainant who may not necessarily be a kgoši . They are given to you and they become yours . For this reason I affirm the Honourable member , Kgoši Mogashoa . Thank you , Mr Speaker ! MR M.T. BOPAPE : I also stand to get into the discussion on this matter of the stipulated fine . As this House agreed upon this matter last year , it is surprising that we as a Legislative Assembly should decide on matters and when we come in again we change as if the matters are new . Now what will the people who are listening in , for whom we are making these laws , think about our Legislative Assembly? We all argue about it when we come again . That means we were not ready . Now in my opinion seeing that such fines do not just benefit a particular individual , they are for and benefit the tribes . They make up the revenues of our tribes . The cases they make go to build up their treasuries . If you are involved in a case in any tribe , the case is for that tribe . If you are a murderer or a thief you are a murderer or a thief of that tribe . I do not see who , when a fine has been stipulated to end such crimes , can feel disturbed . For the attempt is to decrease crime and murder . It is obvious that we are afraid of reproaching ourselves , for this law is made also for the members of this House . You already notice that it is going to affect you in this very House . I also wish to affirm those who wish to propose a motion . I make a request , if the House allows me , to propose that this law be passed . MR S.M. LANGA : In connection with this law it appears we are talking about the same thing , all of us . Let us look at this simple illustration . You find a man has deliveredobola , six head of cattle . If he has separated with that woman he may require that the looola be returned in the form ofmoney If he has delivered by means of money , that money will not be enough . But if it is between R100 and 200 per beast , it is understandable . It is also understood if two beasts amount to R200 . Even though money for a calf is still not enough , it is understandable . I affirm Mr Bopape that this be passed to a committee stage . I thank you!

by

MR H.M. LESHABANE : This matter of increased powers for dikgoši is agreeable . Now as you know, we are people connected with statistics , we do not just accept a matter without first investigating it . I notice that in the past the maximum fine which dikgoši could impose was R20 . That was the equivalent of a beast . I am trying to work out by what percentage it has increased . I find that it is double - double- double . Do you see , Mr Speaker , laws are made for the rich , the poor and the needy . And as far as a beast is concerned , the size does not come into consideration . Even if it is was born yesterday it is a beast . I am here trying to find what our people in the rural areas , working here in Lebowa , earn . As I continue to work it out I find that they earn between R20,00 and R50 and the chief foreman earns R70 , though it may still increase . And because of this , when we come to the Committee Stage of the Bill , I will try to plead with you on the basis of this statistics . It is very true that laws must be made but the people also must be considered . You know I have attended the tribal gatherings for a long time . At my place I have never seen a case where the fine was one goat . I have never experienced it . It has always been a beast . That is why , Mr Speaker , though I have no objection as in the first I did not object , when we come to the committee stage I would like us to look at the matter analytically . THE SPEAKER : Honourable House , the time is up . The House will stop the discussions . We will come back at quarter past two .

THE HOUSE ADJOURNED FOR LUNCH AT

12.45 .

THE SPEAKER : Let us sit down . Now, Honourable Members , when there were no longer speakers on this matter . Also a motion proposed and seconded that the House go into committee stage Now there being no objector to the motion , the House will go Committee stage .

we closed had been on this matter . into the

THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable Members , the House is now in committee . We now start with clause I of the Bill Amendment of Section 20 of Act 38 of 1927 as substituted by section I of Act 13 of 1975 clause I accepted? Yes ! No ! Yes ! Order ! Order! Honourable Mohlale William Kgatla . MR M.W. KGATLA : Thank you , Mr Chairman , Sir . I want to try to bring this to the notice of the House so that there should not be any misunderstanding about this clause and the only clause ; and we have been working with the chiefs from 1968 - some of us in this House . It is a great honour to work with the chiefs and the chiefs are there by the position that they have the honour to work with us . And right from the very beginning now I would like the chiefs to get the problems which are in their heads out and to listen very carefully and constructively . We are definitely willing Mr Speaker , that our chiefs must have more powers than they has in the past . And the powers must be more realistic , seeing that they are ruling people , they are not ruling stones or so . I am the last man who can go and differ with a chief if he is realistic . And this is my humble submission Mr Speaker , that the chiefs must never understand that we are trying to undo them or we are trying to refuse them with the powers that must come into their private powers .

THE CHAIRMAN : order .

Order!

Order!

The Honourable KP . Phasha , on a point of

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KGOŠI K.P. PHASHA: Mr Chairman , I become very sad when the Honourable Member for Bolobedu utters words to the effect that he wants to put , to bring to notice and to blow out the fog that is in the minds of the chiefs in this parliament . With respect to you , Mr Chairman , I say he should withdraw these words because they are disturbing to the dikgoši . Let him withdraw at once . Thank you , Mr Chairman ! MR M.W. KGATLA :

THE CHAIRMAN :

Can I go on , Mr Chairman?

Go on , Honourable Member!

MR M.W. KGATLA: Thank you , Mr Chairman . I wish to repeat myself . If Chief Phasha did not understand English it is not my duty to teach him English here . And the Honourable Chief should understand this : I said this : I want to repeat that there might perhaps be some members who have got some mistrust and some miss in their thinking . I never said chiefs are like that to help him , Mr Chairman , and to help the deliberations of this House , on his sake I wish to withdraw that . THE CHAIRMAN :

Order!

MR M.W. KGATLA: Mr Chairman , Sir , he is trying to let me lose my temper , and I will never lose my temper . Before lunch here the Honourable Mr Leshabane brought out something that should have provoked the thing of the people . To those who were interested in thinking he said this ? - The boer farmers right now are paying their people about R2 to R50 and the very first farmer is paying his big boss about R70 a month . And I want the people to understand , the Honourable House to understand me to say this : I do not object to the way this law come . But I object to the way the statistics stand . I will just speak in Sepedi because the like of Chief Phasha do not understand very well . As we were discussing trying to work out these statistics , we find that the increase into the dikgoši's power is 500% increment from what they could fine a man who comes over to the tribal court and be found guilty . I am talking about 500% now. Mr Chairman , I never said Chief Phasha does not understand English ; you want to cause a quarrel between Chief Phasha and me . I said people such as Phasha who may not be understanding English very well . I am talking to Chief Phasha who is interrupting me .....

THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable Member , I have given you the time to speak on that section ; not on any other thing on this section . MR M.W. KGATLA : Thank you . How would it be with our dikgoši? I think these statistics of 500% are a bit too high. How would it be , taking into consideration the poverty the neediness , if we would reduce these figures , I plead . As you know there are dikgoši who deprive people of two beast . And I am going to say this , Mr Chairman , who ever is interrupting is a best stupid for the day. Here I was just giving my say . If others reply me , while you or the mover of the motion are not replying that will compel me to use such words . If you have objection to what I am saying , Mr Chairman , will give you chance to rebut them in a polite manner ; rather than that you should interrupt me while I am putting you on the right track patiently . THE CHAIRMAN : order!

Order!

Order!

The Honourable K.P. Phasha , on a point of

KGOŠI K.P. PHASHA : It is very disturbing that the Honourable Member for Bolobedu should keep on repeating the unpleasant words which are disturbing

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to the members who are affected by what he is saying , such as ourselves in this House . Even if there is no one interrupting him right now as he is speaking , it is not right that he should utter such words as these . They are disturbing in this Honourable House . I do not know , Mr Chairman whether he can tolerate such words as " stupid . " Is there any foolish man who can interrupt the Honourable Member for Bolobedu . ? I will conclude just now that he has disturbed me .... ...he refers to me because I was the first to interrupt by requesting a point of order while he was speaking , of all the Honourable Members , Mr Chairman . I was the first person to feel disturbed . That is why , through you , Mr Chairman I am requesting him to withdraw those words . He should then feel at ease because this House belongs to him also . He should state his arguments in a relaxed manner of the House , to build up the law. MR M.W. KGATLA: Mr Chairman, without any reservation I would like to withdraw the whole complaints that Honourable Kgoši Phasha is asking for . Can I continue .

THE CHAIRMAN :

I give you time , Honourable Member .

MR M.W. KGATLA :

THE CHAIRMAN :

Thank you , I just wanted to .......

Order , the Honourable Z. Seleka .

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr Speaker and Honourable House . It gives me an impression that you are frightened to hear that a fine will be two head of cattle or £ 100 . Two beast are stipulated only as a maximum . It does not mean , Hon . House , that every time a man is fined , he is fined two beasts . That is not the intention . It means if a man has a case , he will be fined and there will be time when the case is not serious enough to warrant a fine of two beasts . It warrants only one beast . He will therefore not be fined two beasts . The House is able to read English but does not seem to know what is meant by maximum . I see the House does not understand that it does not mean that every time a man is fined he will be fined R200 or two beasts . It is a scale . It means the tribal court cannot impose a fine exceeding R200 or two beasts . But when I am at my kraal judging a case I decide according to the case , what the fine should be , how much money or how many beasts . I am not the only one . I believe all the dikgoši do that . There may be a case warranting a fine of five goats . It depends on the nature of the case . There may even be a case warranting a fine of one beast . It means the fine for that case could be one beast or five goats , and not two beasts . This is intended to guide the dikgoši in calculating a fine . There are also will agree , warrant a fine of two beasts . The cases which , you important fact is that the powers which this Parliament gives to the dikgoši are that they may not impose a fine exceeding two beasts . I am just simplifying the explanation on this matter . Thank you! MR M.W. KGATLA : must continue .

You had given the Minister chance to make explanation .

I

THE CHAIRMAN : Order please ! Honourable House , we wish to thank the Minister for making the explanation , particularly on Section I , and I will sincerely ask the Honourable Members to be concise and to the point . We are in the committee stage and we are only entitled to a first 10 minutes . The Honourable Mohale Kgatla is left with three minutes and may now continue .

12

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MR M.W. KGATLA : Yes , I will utilise that , Mr Chairman . Why I was asking that the R100 per beast is too much is due to this . This thing is going to interfere with our lobola system , in that sense that we usually have 10 head of cattle as the price fixed for a bride . According to this it means one beast is R100 and if you have to pay 10 head of cattle it means you have to pay a thousand rand for your lobola . That's why I was asking the Minister who brought this Bill in this House to consider that in order to reduce so that those who did not go to school , who can't work out It is a arithmetic correctly , it is not my mistake . Yes I am talking . pity , Mr Chairman , I should have done more than this by explaining . Time is up and those who never went down to school are wasting my time . You have seen it .

THE CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Kgoši B.K. Matlala . and to the point .

Please try to be concise

KGOSI B.K. MATLALA: I thank you Honourable Chairman . To tell the truth , this is a good Bill . Now Honourable Members must realise that on this matter there is no choice and you are requested . If one is rich or poor , if one has wronged the law, one must pay . If you go into a shop where the goods cost R100 , those goods will not cost R50 just because you are a pooer man , they will just cost R100 . The price of all the cattle is more than R100 . The Honourable Members should realise that the fines which are imposed by the dikgosi , do not go into the pockets of the dikgoši . They go into the treasury of the tribes . Also the Honourable Members should realise that the modern crimes are complicated . All the people on earth , are protected by law . And the carrying out of the law , depends on these fines . It is for this reason that I make appeal to the Honourable Members that this fine measure should be passed so that dikgoši , the magistrates , and judges should execute the law which protect everybody . Now I hear some honourable members wondering what the intention of the Bill is . They were thinking that the fines were to swell the pockets of the dikgoši . That is how they took the matter . That is why they are opposed to the Bill . This Bill is faultless . In conclusion I move , Honourable Members , that this Bill be passed .

THE CHAIRMAN :

The Hon . K.P. Phasha .

Order !

KGOŠI K.P. PHASHA: Thank you , Mr Chairman .. THE CHAIRMAN : Order! The Honourable L.G. Mathole , on a point of order . MR L.G. MATHOLE : Thank you , Mr Chairman . It appears to me Honourable Chairman that you squint your eyes to the left side and there have been Honourable Members raising their hands this side . May you consider that there are five members who would like to say something from the right side ; from your right side .

THE CHAIRMAN : Thank you ! Order! Just before eh! Honourable L.G. Mathole I have a list here for your information . I have here K.P. Phasha , H.M. Modjadji , I.K. Malebana , T.J. Mothapo , Z. Seleka , Nchabeleng , S.P. Kwakwa , H.M. Leshabane , Kgoši Nkadimeng , Z. Sekhukhune , D. Modjadji . I have all the names here . And you are there L.G. Mathole . KGOŠI K.P. PHASHA : Mr Chairman , when some of us began to look into this Bill , we realise it is going to disturb some members of the Honourable House . It was being forgotten that this Honourable Parliament of the Lebowa Legislative Assembly was from the origin initiated by dikgoši . I do not believe that if it had not been for the dikgoši who are today being given

73

additional powers by this Bill , there wouldn't have been this Parliament . MR M.W. KGATLA :

Point of order !

(Noise ! )

THE CHAIRMAN : Order ! Order! Order! Honourable House , I only want to draw the attention of the Hon . Kgoši to be relevant . When you give examples , they must be related to the section . KGOŠI K.P. PHASHA : Mr Chairman , I thank you , though you had not as yet seen what I was driving at . You thought I was out of order . Never mind I will just get into the subject . I repeat ! Though you may stop me that the policy of Lebowa is love and peace . Secondly that bogoši ( chieftainship ) should receive attention following the section under consideration . 1 . Even the Central Government respects bogoši what more of us to whom it belongs . In connection with section I mentioned by the Honourable the matter of lobola has come into Member , he is after me I notice , mention . Lobola has no relation to matters such as this , he should know . In lobola you may just bring two calves and we accept . They may not even be living . Even R20 is alright . It is enough for you to get a wife if we agree with one another .

Now he should realise that these are connected with the cases that come to be decided by dikgoši . And they are tough cases which are not the same . Now I am informing him through you , Mr Chairman , that there are counts and discounts in cases . He should realise that we give attention to such matters . But this measure does not affect everyone of the cases . It will go according to whether the Honourable Member , Mr Kgatla , has committed a small crime . But since , Mr Kgatla never investigated a case , really investigation is in the capacity of a kgoši , let him notice that we know these things . Some of us have many experiences of these cases ...... Now I want to conclude in this manner . I move that this Bill be passed at once . It is quite alright . I mean this very section . I move that it be passed .

KGOŠI M.E. MOGASHOA : I have been waiting , Mr Chairman , because I see this motion in the Honourable House . I stand to affirm this motion ..... THE CHAIRMAN : Thank you very much . But still I want to hear more opinion . Now you take your seat . Order ! Order! KGOŠI M.E. CHILOANE :

You know nothing about bogoši , you ....

Honourable House , when we THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable Members , order ! say order , everybody who is standing must sit down . When we say order , everybody who is standing must sit down and the chairman will decide what to do . That is how matters are dealt with in Cape Town . Honourable H.M. Modjadji . MR M.W. KGATLA: THE CHAIRMAN :

On point of order , Mr Chairman ! Point of order granted .

MR M.W. KGATLA : Thank you , Mr Chairman . My point of order is this : Kgoši Chiloane stood up to say " Those people know nothing about bogoši " We are not interested in bogoši right now. Let him withdraw that and confine himself to this section . We are not discussing bogoši just now . It is yours , you know about it but we are concerned with the section . He says we know nothing we should leave matters of this House to proceed . Let him withdraw that so that we proceed .

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THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable Members , before I ask him to do so , you know you are not confining yourselves to the section . Everybody will stand up and say his own story , but not the section . Accordingly, there is no body who is against this section . KGOŠI M.E. CHILOANE : Mr Chairman , I can only withdraw if I swore at him ; and I have not used any offensive words here . I will not withdraw. Yes ! (Noise ! Noise ! ) THE CHAIRMAN :

Order!

Order!

The Honourable K.P. Phasha .

KGOŠI K.P. PHASHA : Mr Chairman , I thank you . I proposed a motion that this Bill be passed . It has been seconded . Now in terms of Rules of Procedure of this House , what is happening . Is it just going to be left or what is the procedure? There is no counter , there is nothing . ( Noise ) Mr Chairman , you yourself have stated it plainly that there is no counter . What is wrong , Mr Chairman , because you continue with the procedure where you have said there was no counter . Where is the wrong? I want to ask the House what the matter is because you have bound yourselves ( Noise ) . THE CHAIRMAN :

Order!

Order!

L.G. Mathole .

MR L.G. MATHOLE : Mr Chairman , Sir , with due apology to the Honourable House . I would like to draw the attention of the Honourable Chair to the following facts in consideration of his procedure which is the order of the day subject to this point under procedure . It is understood , Mr Chairman , that the provision - sole provisions of the Bantu Administration , when we discuss the Act of 1927 , Act no . 38 has been an encroach-pent on our basic right as blacks . And now because of its being outdated , Mr Chairman I must take into consideration when we discuss the contents of section one of the contents of Act no . 38 that most of them are outdated , having been imposed upon us as Blacks . In actual analysis and ex-memorandum to provisions as provided by the Bill under discussions they lie as follows : - The amendments provide for all kraals of dikgoši to have a jurisdiction next to that of magistrates . It must be understood a maximum sentence must be accepted . The maximum thereof is a discharge and the right of appeal on any sentence Mr Chairman , Sir So Mr Chairman , in the interim and in the progress of all debate it is understood that we accept this section as it stands because it is a maximum sentence and a minimum sentence of a discharge and right of appeal . Mr Chairman , Sir , with your permission do you allow me to debate on what I have overted to? I am starting my three minutes , Mr Chairman .

THE CHAIRMAN :

Go ahead .

MR L.G. MATHOLE : Mr Chairman , I quite agree with the Honourable Mohale Kgatla for Bolobedu that if we express one head of cattle by R100 , that has an effection communal interpretation . He is quite right , but he has lost sight of one fact . In Sepedi there is bargaining for Lobola payments . So there cannot be a direct interpretation of similarity . In actual fact the world must know and what dikgoši and their subjects must know is the fact that if we pass it as it is , dikgoši's jurisdiction of fine extends up to R100 per beast . That does not mean that there is no tribal court which could find an accused not guilty . A kgoši and all his subjects must understand one fact . If I am fined two head of cattle , I have got the right to appeal to the magistrate and he does not have the alternative of giving me a " trek pas" from his land , for he hold no land . He owes me as

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a subject . So the obvious thing that exists within the context of this section is that we give kgoši a jurisdiction next equal to the one of the magistrate and we give him a maximum of two beasts , and we give him a minimum of discharge and we give a particular accused , the right of appeal . He is not deprived of all the right . So it is necessary that we can have this . This is more democratic than the terrorism Act . Now, Mr Chairman , what we understand in the terrorism trial or sabbotage Act or any other Act which is enacted for security purposes , it has got a maximum sentence , otherwise all minimum sentence is a discharge and a right of appeal .... (NOISE ! NOISE ! NOISE ! )

THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable House , Honourable House ! The Honourable Kgoši Phasha has moved that we should pass , seconded by Kgosi Mogashoa . MR L.G. MATHOLE :

What is the opinion of the House , Mr Chairman?

THE CHAIRMAN : The Honourable L.G. Mathole , to my opinion has made it clearer and I wonder you still want to discuss it , with the apology of those that I have written. I was asking them whether we cannot accept it (Noise ) Honourable House , Order! Honourable House , I am asking those that I have written whether we cannot accept it ( Noise ) I know we just want to speak in order to retaliate . Honourable House , I am asking those that I have written here for apology that they should accept it ( Noise ) Order! Order ! Order please ! Honourable House , I don't think that we are going into the details whether the magistrate must accept the case. yes ! Applause ) Ours here is , are we accepting this Section one ( House MR H.M. LESHABANE : Point of order , Mr Chairman . Our right here is that we must discuss this section and if we discuss it ..... THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable Member , order ! order! I think you are not relevant , honourable member , because here there is no one who says he is against section one . So I am asking this House . There is no one against section one . Does the House accept section one?

( THE HOUSE : THE CHAIRMAN :

Yes ! )

There you are ;

thank you !

THE CHAIRMAN : The secretary will read the short title : Will you just allow the secretary to read the short title ? Let him read the short title . ( Noise ) Order ! (THE SECRETARY : This act shall be called the Lebowa Amendment on Bantu Administration Act , 1977 ) .

THE SPEAKER :

When is the third reading , Honourable Minister?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr Speaker , and Honourable Members , I move that the Bantu Administration Amendment Bill 1977 now be read for the third time . Since the Bill has been considered clause by clause , I do not want to enlarge on the matter any further Mr Speaker , Sir .

THE SPEAKER : Now I take it that judging by the manner in which the Honourable House discussed the Bill , and satisfied itself , the Bill is being accepted . Now we shall ask the Secretary to read the short title of the Bill .

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(THE SECRETARY : This Act shall be called the Lebowa Administration Amendment Act , 1977 ) THE SPEAKER : Now by so saying we have passed it . Now following our Order Paper , we proceed to c ( i ) We are still in the committee stage on this Bill . We shall therefore proceed in this manner . (The House goes into committee stage ) THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable House , the Honourable House is now in committee . When we left the other day the Honourable H.M. Leshabane had agreed that Chief Minister had we could accept the 5% after the Honourable the made all the necessary explanations and that it would be according to inter national standards . The Honourable Kgoši T.J. Mothapo had already accepte the 5%, but when we left he was left with three minutes speaking on the widower . The Honourable T.J. Mothapo .

KGOŠI T.J. MOTHAPO : Thank you , Mr Chairman , I was asking why the Whites would not recognise polygammy, why they do not accept our tradition in the way that we want ; in the way it is . Look , Mr Chairman , just to give examples , when a woman goes for accouchement the man also takes a leave , and goes to the hospital . We do not do that and we do not even know the procedure . According to them when a person has passed away according to their customs , they take the corps out of the house and put it in a garage . If there is no garage , they leave it outside . We do not do that . We respect everything . They should therefore respect our customs and beliefs . When we say a man should inherit his wife's property we mean he should inherit irrespective of what the white people like or dislike . When they follow their customs they do not worry about our opinions . Rather than regard our opinion they rather not think about us . Instead of giving due regard to our opinions they oppress us . That is why I maintain that our widower should inherit the properties of his late wife . Thank you , Mr Chairman . MR M.T. BOPAPE : Concerning this very point I have a complaint . We know that the Whites have oppressed us from long for the Whites are able to make laws for us , without consulting us and in our absence . We work according to the laws which we did not make . We have to use those laws even if we do not like them because we pray to get food . Yes , because we are begging for food . I believe they know that they are oppressing us because if we do not subject ourselves to their oppression we are faced with starvation , we will even come back to subject ourselves to their desires . Let these Whites show love and christianity so that we should feel relaxed and accept these things after agreement . You also know when a man is brousing in his own fields , possessing all the wealth , even if you used to beat him in physical strength or by means of weapons , if you have nothing to eat , you cannot stand against him. We would tell them that we recognise their strength but they should regard with respect that which is traditionally ours for we have our customs and traditions which we respect . We know we are not wishing to be like them for that we cannot do at all . We are just being separated by an ideology . Otherwise we are one thing . se are being separated by bad attitudes which comes from where we do not know; from God or from any other source . I was thinking perhaps we should hold an intensive prayer , praying that God should join us together , that we may be one , be christians , Whites and Blacks . Then we could help one another . I affirm that a man whose wife is late should inherit the property which resulted from the labour of that wife . Thank you!

77

THE CHAIRMAN :

The Honourable , Frank Mametja!

MR F.M. MAMETJA: Mr Chairman , I think there is not much that I can add because that day when I raised my hand and was listed , what I had in mind has already been said . The last speaker has expressed what I was intending to say . Thank you , Mr Chairman .

THE CHAIRMAN :

The Honourable , Mr Tlaka!

MR T.S. TLAKA : I raised my hand and it would appear you did not take me into consideration . I don't even know what we are talking about . Are you talking about pensions? I was out ......

THE CHAIRMAN :

No!

MR T.S. TLAKA: So if you are not talking about pensions I have lost my time . And I still want to say what Mr Mathole there has said , that you don't seem to consider these people on this side . I wonder somebody was suggesting it may be squinted but I don't think so . I don't think you are overlooking things . MR S.P. KWAKWA : Mr Chairman , I lost trend of what I had to say . In anyway I don't subscribe to this idea that a man should expect the pension from his wife . You know the man has always been the breadwinner . Even now we confuse things you know. We now want the woman's money and yet we are talking about fines in terms of cattle in these days where there are no cattle . There is money . I feel its rather not good quite in keeping with all progressive societies . And according to your custom , your wife is your child , and you cannot expect your child to support you . I really feel that ..Lets ' not just waste time and agin when it suits us , I want to say we are keeping what is our custom and quote them also to support our point of view. You know, according to your custom you don't even have a pension . You don't know these things . We are living today in an industrial world . Therefore I think it doesn't sound for the man to say that he will inherit the wife's pensions . In fact I don't know whether the woman should be forced to take pensions because for instance in teaching they go on pension and they break it time and again because now and again marriages come and they break service . It just goes to pieces all the time . Mr Chairman , as I have said , I lost trend of the discussion because you know it's sometimes back , I had quite a number of facts .

THE CHAIRMAN :

The Hon . Kgosi Malekane .

KGOŠI M.M. MALEKANE : On this matter I stand to affirm that it is right that a black person should inherit as it is our custom . I even wonder what has caused us to talk about this matter because the government has given us the right to improve ourselves on the foundation of our own culture . It appears what brings about this discussion is the fact that there are some people who stop us from doing certain things . This begins to confuse us . We get surprised that where we have been given freedom to do things in our own way we are forbidden to do some other things . We knew a man is the head of the house . It is from him that the household should expect everything . But in these things ...... people are never equal and we cannot be the same . One man is very capable and propers in his house . You can see , Mr Chairman , this matter is very confusing to me , the question of the man not inheriting the property of the wife if the wife is late . It confuses me because it seems to imply that these woman because they go to school and become nurses and female teachers , should not get married .

78 (a)

THE CHAIRMAN : Order! Order! Honourable House , I think the Honourable the Chief Minister made it clear, that this matter will lead us into financial implications . Honourable Members I know what I am saying, He said 5% plus the inclusion of the widower will lead us into financial implications Honourable Members , do you want to confine yourselves to that , the Central Government will not acceed to that . Order please , Order ! The Honourable the Chief Minister . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and Honourable Members , I have a suggestior I think in a situation where we are having a conflict , it is sometimes advisable to steer in an out- flanking movement , to avoid confrontation . I am trying to suggest a way of avoiding confrontation . Confrontation is for the strong and an outflanking movement is for the whites . The outflanki movement only takes a way but you get your target. As a rule you will win . Now we would like to win in this contest . The people that are strong say to us that they want consultation on matters that involve finance . I don't think they are unreasonable when they ask that . They don't refuse , they only say , let us talk about finance before we can get ourselves tied up . There are two Ministers involved here , it is the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development and Education , Mr M.C. Botha ; even if we go to him he will not finalise the matter . He in turn must consult with the Minister of Finance . These two ministers are all asking that they should be given the opportunity to discuss financial matters with us . And I think they are all agreed that because they have responsibility , just as we have responsibility , they are entitled to be consulted on this matter . And I think if we grant them the opportunity , that is , we grant ourselves the opportunity of talking to them , then we have a chance of convincing ther about what we feel . Now what I hear the Honourable Members speak about the: customs , I think that ....... I am trying to leave it to the House . We pass the Bill as it stands and then we consult with them , and after consultation with them , it is only next year that we put an amendment , after we shall ha consulted with them . In the same way as we have an amendment to this Bill , you know the Bantu Administration Bill we have had an amendment , a very short amendment . I think we have got the perfect right to amend this Bill as soon as it is through . They cannot challenge us now because we shall have followed the routine . I mean the correct procedure and then we later on come along and amend the Bill as we want . That will in my opinion give us the opportunity of avoiding confrontation . If we don't do so , if we pass the Bill like this as we feel , you can be qui sure they will return it to us . The State President won't sign it . But along the path I am trying to describe to this Honourable House , we wil be able to gain our target and avoid the confrontation because they will ha been consulted . Mr Chairman , Sir !

THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable House , I hope we thank the Chief Minister for what he has said , and I hope we are now prepared to accept this clause as it stands . Does the House accept this? ( HOUSE :

YES !

YES !

NO! )

THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable House , why do you say yes and then later on say no? The Honourable Kgoši Malekana , you are still left with two minutes . KGOŠI M.M. MALEKANE : Mr Chairman , now I am almost clear, Mr Chairman . Our Chief Minister has tried his best to explain to us that it will not help anything following his explanation to force the matter according to our way of thinking . This is not the second matter which I experienced in It is true that this Parliament , Mr Chairman . We object to these things .

78401

they are being returned . I have an idea, Mr Chairman , that this House should accept this Bill and later on we could bring amendments when the Bill has been passed . (Noise ) There are many things in this House which this Government has tackled , which this House has asked that they be changed .

THE CHAIRMAN :

The Honourable Kgoŝi Mohlala !

KGOŠI M.G. MOHLALA : I stand here with a sad heart because of the heritage of widows when I am dead . I will compare this with our traditional custom Now does it really mean that if a man , - a woman has property in the home , if I lead my daughter into marriage , I carry the property which I have and give it over to my daughter . Now if she dies leaving a husband , who enhirits the goods? That is my only question Sir .

THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable Members , I am looking on my right hands and I see no hands . The Honourable Mr Kekanaw . MR P.L. KEKANA: Mr Chairman , I do not have words which I want to tell you . I just wanted to point out that according to our custom a woman is allowed to marry another woman . So when you make laws like this you should think about it , that a woman is allowed to marry another . Just as we are , quite a lot of families have been initiated by women . Even in the case of bogoši . Now how do you mean a woman is not able to support?

THE CHAIRMAN :

The Honourable Kgoši Nchabeleng !

KGOŠÍ J.K. NCHABELENG : I thank you , Mr Chairman . This matter is surprising . As I see it , it can confuse you , if a man will inherit the property of his late wife . The property of the woman belongs to the man . What has been earned by my wife is mine . There are many women who are weaklings . Now it can be very surprising if should they die their property I do not know how or where in the government it will be taken . There are women who have businesses whereas the husbands do not have . Now say this woman dies . Where will her heritage of business go to? Will it be returned to the relatives of the woman or where will it go to? When I hear objection to the man inheriting the woman's belongings I get even more confused as to why . I mean may be a better explanation could be made than what I have so far been listening to , as to where the property of the late woman will be taken to . Say, my wife has a lot of cattle married her . Now all these many in the event of her death? They she will inherit . In a marriage property what belongs to the man in our case what belongs to here As I see it what belongs to your far as I know. Thank you , Sir !

THE CHAIRMAN :

given to here by here parents when I head of cattle to whom will they belong go to me in the same way that when I am dead by christian rites and community of belongs also to the woman . Why is it that should not belong to me as her husband . wife belong to you as husband , that is as

The Honourable Kgosi A.S. Molepo !

KGOŠI A.S. MOLEPO : Mr Chairman , we believe the very part that this Bill has been brought to us means that the outcome of our discussion will be accepted in the form in which we like it . Now if we find that there is a part of it which is not agreeable to us , it is right that we should point out the disagreeable portion . Now the disagreeable part in this bill is not to inherit the property of his late wife . Now this matter differs greatly with our traditional custom . We do not have pensions , therefore we must show them the way we think the pensions should affect us . What we must state is that we agree to the pensions except on thisI'point feel that a widower should not inherit the property of his late wife .

.*79

certain that the Whites , who want us to accept this Bill , when we have told them the form in which we want it , will not refuse to accept it , for they have brought it to us so that we should tell them the form in which we want it . We must realise that when we compose a Bill , we compose it to take the shape that makes it to suit us , not them . In that case , Mr Chairman , I move that the Bill should be amended so that the wideower should benefit from the property of his late wife .

THE CHAIRMAN :

Kgoši K.P. Phasha , are you seconding ?

KGOŠI T.J. MOTHAPO :

Mr Chairman , I second him on this matter .

KGOŠI K.P. PHASHA : Mr Chairman , I thank you . In the first place this Bill does not force anybody . When we started with the discussion there was an argument about " shall and may" and then we ended up on 20. In fact it does not force anybody . Mr Chairman , what confuses me is what is the real problem because this Bill does not make it compulsory . When the widower is unable to inherit what is due to the then it will mean that the widow will have been a member of Parliament and having joined what is required by this Bill . Now if she thinks her husband is likely to lose , why doesn't she stay without joining . What is clear to me is that we purposely waste the time so that we can earn R10 from the Government ( Noise ) . THE CHAIRMAN : Order! Order ! Order ! Honourable Members , you are not to the point . I think you'd better just tell us that we pass it as it stands . KGOŠI K.P. PHASHA: Mr Chairman , let me conclude by saying I appreciate your correcting . I was going astray . Let me conclude . I conclude , Mr Chairman , by saying I notice that we are wasting time by making a noise about this Bill . Where there is a will , there is a way . It is a question of take it or leave it and that is all .

THE CHAIRMAN :

The Honourable the Chief Minister!

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman , I do not want to monopolise the discussion I am concerned with getting what we want . It is accepted that this Bill is in our interest except for those who do not care for the future of their families . But the point is ..... I am trying to say we should meet the requirements and at the same time get what we want . That is why I say we consult with the people concerned , and then we have a way of amending this Bill . And it is an easy passage . If we do not do so , you are well , you are free Honourable House , to pass this Bill in the way you want it to be returned back . We mustn't waste so much time in doing a thing when we have a way of getting what we want by consulting with the people concerned and get what we want by amending the particular clause or increasing or adding particular clause that we want , namely , to provide for the widower . In the same way as we did this very morning by amending the Bantu Administration Act of 1927 , just to add what we want . I find it very easy to go along that route instead of establishing confrontation . But it is for this House to think of the best approach that will make us gain our objections and not lose them . I am convinced , Mr Chairman , that nobody here intends to try to force Pretoria , but we are agreed , we must make this provision . It's a method of getting round the corner , round the problem , and get what you want . That is my submission and suggestion . I am not deffering at all with the views expressed here , that we should make provision . I am not against that but I am trying to get a method of getting that right , Mr Chairman .

008

0

THE CHAIRMAN : The Honourable I.K. Malebana , followed by the Honourable Mohale william Kgatla . MR M.W. KGATLA : Mr Chairman , some time back I said this in this Legislative Assembly . , that it seems that all the Bills that we come to discuss here and pass , are parcelled from Pretoria , parcelled to us already because even if you try a genuine amendment so that we straighten our Bills as we want them , this is what we get as a reply from them : - " Pretoria won't agree to this . " Are we making laws for Pretoria or are we making laws for ourselves? We smell a rat in this Bill . Particularly, I want to see the reason why we pass it as it is , and tomorrow or later we make an amendment . Το help this House , amendments are made on Acts which are already in operation . That is the position . You pass a Bill , and when it is an Act , and you try to put it into operation then you get obstacles . It is then that you make amendment . This is a dangerous situation when people are passing a law in the House with an intention of amending it next time .

If this is our Bill ; it has been proposed by us; it has been compiled by us , it is then that we must straighten it quite from the very beginning . It is not for Pretoria to go and tell us that . And I believe the money that we are talking about , the pension money, is the money that we are going to pay . Pretoria has got much interest in it . It is our money , from our own pockets . This is in fact discouraging women from taking part in politics . I won't allow my wife to become a politician because if she happens to die , I won't get any money that she has been contributing at all . Those who did a bit of administration , if you marry in community of property , the idea is that what I won belongs to my wife as well . If I die she inherits that . If she happens to die I inherit that . Why not in this pension where I popped out my money? Judging by the way this House behaves , it means when the law is passed on to Pretoria you work this way . You make recommendation that this House wants that this section should be there so that when a woman is dead the husband should inherit her belongings . Unless you decide to die before that , you are afraid this thing must become a law tomorrow . It can go there , they will just return it since we want it or else we forget about it . I wish to say this because it will mean its a threat to the members of the Legislative Assembly to accept it . Every right thinking person, when he is earning money beside this pension Act , that they are working , has to save his money . The way he thinks he can save the money for the future of his family, for his own future , etc , etc. It must be understood it is not only this pension that can save my money if I don't want to save it . If it only come toady when you are getting out , where has it been all along? So I want everybody to be very clear in this House to try to understand that even if you accept this , if you were not saving your money all along , that is not our business . Not necessarily to say Honourable Members if we do it in this fashion , Pretoria will reject it . If you do not do it in this way it means you do not have the interest of your family at heart . That should be out of people's minds . We must decide what we want in this Act . As we say, we want to have and to infringe or to entrench a clause which deals with a widower . It must be there . We have been talking of Separate Development policy . You must do this on your own , but you want to do it the Pretoria way . What have we got to do with Pretoria. Whoever is doing things in Pretoria , must be told we are doing our own things in Lebowa . And he must never interfere in our affairs . We want this clause on the widower . If they do not accept it, it is alright , we ourselves will see what to do ......

1

THE CHAIRMAN : Order , Honourable House , shall we now say we accept this section? With an inclusion of the widower? Accepted? THE HOUSE AGREES .

THE CHAIRMAN : This is what brought us back . We were already on seven ( 3 ) . Now Honourable Member , you know that we have had these documents for some hours . I hope each and every Honourable Member has read them through . Now shall I say do we accept it? Seven (3 ).....Yes .

Thank you ,

Do we accept 7 ( 4 )

Yes ! Thank you !

Do we accept 7 ( 4 ( a ) and ( b )

Yes!

Thank you .

Do we accept 7 ( 5 ) ( a )? ^

Yes !

Thank you.

Do we accept 7 ( 5 ) ( b ) ?

Yes!

Thank you.

Then do we accept clause 8 ( 1 ) ?

Yes!

Thank you.

Do we accept clause 8 ( 2 ) ?

Yes !

Do we accept 8 ( 3 ) ( a ) , ( b ) , ( c ) ?

Do we accept 8 ( 4 ) ?

Yes ! 8( 5 )?

Yes .

8 ( 6 )?

Yes .

We accept the whole 8?

Yes .

And then we come to Do we accept 9 ( a ) and ( b ) ? Yes ! Do we accept 10? Yes ! Then clause 11 ( 1 ) . Do we accept that? Yes ! Do we accept 11 ( 2 )?? Yes . 13 ( 2 ) ? Yes ! 1 ? accept clause 12 ( Yes ) we Do ! do we accept clause 12? Yes . Do we accept whole section 14? Do we accept the whole 13?

Mr Chairman , you could just read .

MR M.W. KGATLA : THE CHAIRMAN :

14?

MR M.W. KGATLA : Yes ! THE CHAIRMAN : 14: that is "any member shall make an election which he is able HMohale , it only entitled to make under this Act " Well , the Honour I learn if you so desire to take up a pension scheme , you do so means , by writing to the Secretary . MR M.W. KGATLA :

THE CHAIRMAN :

I thank you , Mr Chairman .

Thank you .

And do we accept clause

22

82

15 ( 1 ) ? Yes . Clause 15 ( 2 ) ? Yes . Clause 15 ( 3 ) ? Yes . Do we accept whole 15 ? Yes . Do we accept clause 16 ? Yes . Do we accept clause 17 ( 1 ) ? Yes . (a) ( B ) ? Yes . Do we accept 17 ( 2 ) ? Yes . Then 18 is that clause that the Chief Minister suggested . I will just ask our Secretary to read it for us . (THE SECRETARY : "I move that the following now clause 18 ( b ) be inserted . In the case of a member being a female , her widower at her death and from whom she was not divorced , or separated , will , after her death , be regarded as her beneficiary under the provision of this Act . I further move that clause 18 becomes 19 and 19 becomes 20. "

THE

CHAIRMAN :

Do we accept this 18 ?

Yes !

MR H.M. LESHABANE : Point of order , Mr Chairman . I want to understand whether .... but in this separation we got two words . You can be separated by law but not divorce your wife ; and you can just be separated because between you and your wife there are some differences in the family of this word " separated " I would like further explanation . I am not clear with it . I hope the Chief Minister will understand what I mean because in law you go to court trying to divorce your wife and the court rules that you are separated but not divorced . May I get an explanation .

THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable Members , before I call upon the Chief Minister , the Honourable H.M. Leshabane is just the man to make explanation to us in so far as here things are concerned , because he has long been associated with such matters . MR H.M. LESHABANE : Mr Chairman , I would require the help of the Minister who made these things .

THE CHAIRMAN :

The Honourable the Chief Minister .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman , I am sorry that members of this House don't see their duty properly . This Bill is placed before each and every member here so that he can be useful . I therefore sincerely regret that the last speaker instead of being useful to this House , he wants to stand and stare . This is to my mind the wrong attitude of a man who is here to make laws . If he is priviledged to have additional information , he should release the information here for the benefit of this House . With your permission I will give him the opportunity to answer because he is here for that purpose . Before I proceed I would like to know whether he wants to make use of that opportunity . If he does so , I am willing to cooperate with him. Mr Chairman , Sir !

THE CHAIRMAN :

Honourable H.M. Leshabane we are prepared to learn from you.

MR H.M. LESHABANE : I am very grateful to the Chief Minister . You know it is not right to keep poking your nose into other people's matter unless they give you permission to enter into them. In my opinion this word " separation " or " separated , " whatever it is , is a very difficult word and it should not be mentioned . We should mention " divorce . " We should delete the word " separation and use only the word " divorce " because separation can mean anything . We all understand we are separated , not divorced . We have where a woman is sent home for five years because she has committed a certain offence . After that she comes back to her husband as though nothing has ever happened . Mr Chairman , with this explanation I suggest , I don't move , that if possible we delete the word " separation" and put divorce . THE CHAIRMAN : We thank you Honourable member . Chief Minister .

it's

We shall now call upon the

883 THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman , I crave your indulgence and the indulgence of the House . There is an important provision which I have here . Somehow it's mixed up with my papers . If you look at 17 , the provision 17 there is something that ..... in our custom we should make provision for . It says you give the full names , date of birth and gender of each child of such member and the name of the mother of such child excluding an adopted child provided that any person who was registered as the wife of the member in terms of paragraph ( b ) may within 30 days of the death of such member register her unborn child provisionally with the Secretary of the Legislative Assembly. This provision doesn't go far enough to cover our customary cases sufficiently . I consulted with members of the committee that dealt with this in details . Here it refers to a child born after the death of the father . Now according to our customs , you know that lobola cattle determine the parentage of the child. If lobola has been paid this woman will not stop bearing children on account that her husband will have died . According to our custom the younger brother of the late man , will look after that house including its child production ,. The children so born belong to the late husband . Now this paragraph does not stretch as far as that . I thought with your permission , we should re-cast that provision in this language . Provided any child from a widow after the death of a member and who is a child of a customary seed raiser for the deceased will qualify for a pension , because this woman will not divorce and go back to her place , lobola having been paid . Now the deceased's brother goes in to produce children . Now in terms of this paragraph this child does not qualify to benefit from this pension . It requires that this child should also be the child of the family as our customs permit . When the other children are eating he cannot be kept apart . He will want to know by whom he was born . Mr Chairman , I therefore submit that this provision be recast in the manner I have indicated to the Honourable House . It must cover the children of that particular woman who is married properly according to marriage customs . But it does not refer to the woman who became a free bird , went to meet with a certain man from , say , Malawi , had children with him , and then brought them back with her . She is not covered by this provision . I am only concerned with the woman who is decent and will remain married inspite of the fact that her husband will have died , Mr Chairman , Sir . THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable Chief Minister , could we have that document? Honourable Members , the Chief Minister has read an amendment to make provision for the child that will be born after death of the father . Do we accept that amendment? The Honourable T.S. Tlaka .

MR T.S. TLAKA: Mr Chairman , I heard reference being made to a child born of the seed- raiser , the woman who will remain in the family when the husband is dead . I think that is going to raise unnecessary complaint . What I would agree to is that this woman should remain in the family , and not go away . But who is going to worry about who is the father of this child if that woman remains in the house? Who is going to delve into the whole thing to find out exactly who the father of the child is ? Although I agree to this addition there , I think that will raise unnecessary complaint . Thank you ! THE CHAIRMAN :

The Honourable the Minister of Works .

84

THE MINISTER OF WORKS : Thank you , Mr Chairman ! Rather than that we should be arguing on a plain matter , the Chief Minister has explained clearly that the woman we are not concerned with is the one who after the death of her husband left the house with the children to go to stay at another place . The woman who remained in the house after the death of her husband , who continued to stay in the house inspite of the death of her husband , to bring up her children in her late husband's house , is the one who is covered by this amendment . As far as the children born in this house are concerned , there is no person who is going to cavesdrop in the night to ascertain which man enters the house to father them . They are born in the house of their parents . If she should live the house to bear children somewhere else and come back walking them , they will not be covered . They do not belong to the house . The amendment will not cover them . Mr Chairman , now I do not know wherein lies the difficulty . For the children born in this house , are the children of this family, they are the children of the lobola cattle of this house . We know that a widow who gives birth to children in that house , they are the children of that house They are legal . But if she left the house and later came back bringing children with her , these children shall not be known .

THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable House , before I call upon Honourable E.M. Maloma , the Honourable L.G. Mathole would like to meet these Honourable Members after adjournment . The Honourable Kgoši Mothapo , the Honourable Kgoši Phasha , the Honourable E.M. Maloma , the Honourable D. Modjadji , the Honourable Kgoši Mashung , the Honourable E.C. Madisha , the Hon . L.C. Mothiba . I think the Honourable dikgoši should be knowing ; they must be belonging to a certain committee or both . Honourable E.M. Maloma just finish up . I think we are waiting on the Honourable Chief Minister to make announcement about tomorrow's trip . MR E.M. MALOMA: Mr Chairman , I have understood this matter clearly . It is fully understood . We know according to our own tradition , custom that is , if a woman deserts a family and she gets children , then there is a case there . That child has already been excluded . That child is illegitimate and cannot enjoy the rights and priviledges or the benefits of that household . That's the situation we all know. THE CHAIRMAN : Do we accept 18 ? Yes ! Do we accept 19? Yes ! the whole Bill now? Yes . We remain with the short title .

Now we accept

THE SPEAKER TAKE HIS SEAT . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker, I move that the Lebowa Members of the Legislative Assembly Pension Bill be now read the third time . As you will have noted , the Bill , if it is passed will be that :

(1)

A pension fund for members of the Legislative Assembly will be established

(2 )

Members who have contributed to the revenue for the prescribed minimum period will qualify for the pension ; and

(3 )

The dependants of members who have contributed to revenue for the prescribed minimum period and who die , will also qualify for pension , Mr Speaker , Sir !

THE SPEAKER : The way I understand it is the way this Honourable House has agreed upon this Bill . Let me feel that the Honourable House has agreed

85

in that way (Yes ) We take it therefore as finally agreed upon . It will become a Law. Now we will request that the short title be read. (THE SECRETARY : This Act shall be called the Members of the Legislative Assembly pension Act , 1977 , and shall be deemed to have come into operation on the first of April 1977. ) MR L.G. MATHOLE : Point of order , Mr Speaker . Which Act , what number is it? I propose , Mr Speaker , that it is Act No. 1 of 1977 , and I further request Mr Speaker , the following Honourable Members to stay whilst Parliament is on its Parliamentary excursion for these coming two days : The Honourable J.M. Ratale , Honourable Kgoši K.P. Phasha , Honourable Kgoši A.S. Molepo , Hon . E. Motubatse Maloma and Hon . Lesiba Methiba . They should remain for two days and be absent from our excursion. THE CHIEF MINISTER : May I utilise , Mr Speaker , Sir , the opportunity of making a brief announcement . As the Honourable Members will remember , we are out on a trip tomorrow morning at 6 o'clock . The full itinerary has been circulated to members already . And I therefore do not it is not necessary for me therefore , to read the details of the itinerary as the details are there and I am sure you are aware of them . I can appeal to you, through you , Mr Speaker, that as far as possbile let us observe time . We start off in good time at 6 a.m. We will be able to finish up the long trip also punctually . And I am confident that this trip will be very very instructive to all of us . Lebowa is very beautiful , especially that part of the country . It's fantastically rich in resources ,. and it is worth defending with bloodshed . It is our land and that is the whole story . It is ours , Mr Speaker , Sir , I must emphasize I hope the members will be punctual . 6 a.m. tomorrow and the buses will be here to conveying us . THE SPEAKER : At this stage the House will adjourn until the 7th of April 1977 at 9 a.m.

THE HOUSE THEN ADJOURNS AT 5 p.m.

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1977 :

THURSDAY APRIL THE 7TH .

The sitting commences at 9h00 .

PRAYER : THE SPEAKER :

We will proceed to item two .

MR L.C. MOTHIBA : Mr Speaker , I have gone through the minutes and move that they be accepted as a true record.

KGOŠI K.P. PHASHA : THE SPEAKER :

I second him .

Item three and four ;

items five ;

item six ;

item seven .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker and Honourable Members , I have a brief announcement to make this morning . Having regard Mr Speaker , to the long holidays ahead of the Honourable Members ; the Easter Holidays and as experience has taught us that during the Easter Holidays the traffic increases on the public roads and elsewhere , and having regard too that the dikgoši have very special duties over this long weekend , that is well known to the Members of this Honourable House . It would be clear that in the circumstances it is necessary to try and cope with the situation as it stands . I therefore would like to with respect , Mr Speaker , Sir , move an unopposed motion that we adjourn this House until Tuesday when the Honourable House will resume as usual , Mr Speaker .

THE SPEAKER : Now , the House will suspend the discussions till Tuesday next week at 10h00 . Please come in time . Order ! Please do not leave the House . Your allowances will be brought into here just now. Thank you!

THE

HOUSE

ADJOURNED AT 9h15 .

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1977 :

MONDAY THE 12TH APRIL .

The sitting starts at 10.15 a.m. THE SPEAKER : The Speaker reads a prayer . Let us take seats . Honourable members you'll remember that last time I asked a question that if a person comes late what should we do about him and you replied that nothing is wrong . Now there you are . Now it means you must give me a solution because you refused us saying we must do something to somebody . Now have this in minds that if you are not present we adjourn until tomorrow and you forfeit your allowances . I hope that now you will be able to advise me what to do because this is deliberately done . MR I.M. MODJADJI : Mr Speaker , we said there is no any solution than punishment . Besides giving them a punishment of reducing their allowances there is nothing we can do . It is obvious , Mr Speaker , that if this cannot be done we will have to complain every Monday . Mr Speaker, we say punishment should be instituted from now . Let this be fully done . We must make our own rules of this sort because we serve the nation .

THE SPEAKER : Honourable Members , the House is out of order because we don't form a quorum . Mr Secretary , ring the bells that we should know of they might be outside or not . Now, if they are all in here and forming a quorum you should then get a solution for this problem . ( THE SPEAKER CAUSES BELLS TO BE RUNG )

If we say 10h00 let it be that . The community outside will feel very much depressed if it understands that we adjourned due to a failure in the quorum formation as a result of late coming. And after ringing this bell the law forces me to adjourn . Even if the honourable Mr Makola can speak the House is not in session . MR T.P. MAKOLA: Mr Speaker , it appears to me that we are now forming a a third of the House . Mr Speaker does a third of the House not form quorum?

THE SPEAKER : Order! I am forced by this rule of yours contained inside here . I understand the way you are talking . If I had not such a rule here I would say you are telling the truth . If you say a third , I say half. You see , brothers and sisters , I'm to abide by your rule . Now the bell has rung and there was nobody here . I feel pity for you , let us now wait for 45 minutes and then we will adjourn . ( THE HOUSE HAD TO ADJOURN AT 10.30 AND RESUMED AT 11.15 . )

THE SPEAKER : The Honourable House , last time when we came in the House we prayed and when we were supposed to resume our proceedings , there was no quorum . I also became confused of how to proceed since the members of the House were not there . Now according to the Rules of Procedure if the quorum is not there and I as a Speaker after ringing the bells at 11h00 a.m. supposed to adjourn the House until tomorrow . I adjourned the House for forty-five minutes just to see if the Honourable Members would not be there at that time . This is contradictory to the rule but you forced me to violate this deliberately and say 45 minutes instead of 24 hours . We shall later on give the Hon . Chief Minister some minutes to comment on this matter . We shall proceed to the second item . (Mr M.W. Kgatla seconded by Mr A.S. Mahlangu moved the adoption of the minutes )

88

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker and Honourable Members , I should like to make use of this opportunity . Mr Speaker, to congratulate Mr Speaker , for using his discretion although it may not strictly be in keeping with the Rules of Procedure of this House . Instead of the whole day being spent wastefully you have saved the situation by taking the action you took . And that is what should have taken place . It is no privilege , Mr Speaker , to defer to this incident this morning , as a result of honourable members not being punctual . I must agree with you that this was rather an embarrassing situation . More so that it was solely last week that this House look the decision that they will be punctual . And so the House decided as they did . And now it then has proved that that decision was not respected . Mr Speaker , Sir , I think the Honourable Members will take a serious view of this . They are bound by their decision to be punctual . As they have had to say so that they were responsible enough to be able to know their responsibilities and duties . I can only hope , Mr Speaker , that this is really the last time we had to adjourn the House because of lack of quorum. Otherwise it will be necessary for this House to review their decision . , and see to it that something is done to compel us to be here because we cannot do it ourselves . I hope that will not be the state of affairs . The Honourable Members will really be punctual so as to proceed with the duties and every of this House without delay . Not only on Mondays but each day of the sittings of this House . Mr Speaker , I think I have appealed to the Honourable Members , and I am very sure that this House will have the concerned . cooperation of all Secondly may I have this brief announcement to make . The House adjourned to go and see the area in the East . The Cabinet has taken a very serious view of this danger of our losing part of Lebowa . Wherever the area is , and that is why the Cabinet insisted that there should be a Commission of Inquiry. I am now glad to say that I have been informed by his Excellency the Commissioner General that the Commission under Mr Uys is due to sit I think on the 14th of this month . And they will release information as to the places they will visit and so forth. And I have no doubt that the Honourable Members here who will have the opportunity of appearing before the Commission will certainly do so without failure . I want to appeal upon Honourable Members not to miss the opportunity to do so . the situation is grave . If you imagine the immovable The position is , property is more valuable than money today when the populations are growing and the land remains as it is . And we have very little land in Lebowa as you know but we cannot afford to part with any portion of it . Mr Speaker , it is common knowledge , it is common experience that the Prime Minister and Ministers fly all over the country with helicopters and aircrafts to see their land . Regardless of expenditure , when times are out of joint , they even send armies to go and fight and die there for their land . Land is absolutely essential for the peaceful existance of man . And I hope that will take that view ourselves seriously . Mr Speaker , if you could take into account the price of money, of nine farms at Kgoši Mahlangu's area , they will amount to million of rand . That is under present circumstances . Tomorrow and the day after they will cost more . If you take an area involved in the East , and I think the money price of those territories , will run into millions of rands . And it will be so as days and years wear and tear , the land becomes more and more expensive . And we cannot afford to lose those territories . And the generation of Lebowa and Lebowa people will blame us . If we don't do everything in our power to save the land . Mr Speaker , Sir , I merely indicated this relevant values of land and cash , and I hope to impress the Honourable Members that they have to give this Cabinet all the support they can , so that we can fight and get the Commission to do it's work properly . And , Mr Speaker , Sir ,

09

I would like to say again that we would like the Honourable Members to give us every support , so that we should move in this particular areas of negotiations with Pretoria , and we should do so knowing that we carry with us all full support of this House . It is not one man who must do this . All of us must do this . And I gained the impression as we saw the people of Lebowa in the areas concerned that they are very much perturbed . And they are prepared to take arms . So we attatch a lot of importance to the report the Commission of Investigation will deliver at the end of their inquiry . And now finally , Mr Speaker , Sir , may I just briefly announce that Mr Speaker's banquet will not be held tomorrow but a day after tomorrow. That is on Thursday the 14th of this month . We will get to know a little later on the item , when the banquet will begin . Mr Speaker , Sir! MR M.W. KGATLA : Mr Speaker , Sir , on item 11 , I wish to give a notice of the substantive motion on this quarum business . Perhaps we might get a way out of it , after six days from today . The motion of Mr M.W. Kgatla was seconded by Mr T.P. Makola . THE MINISTER OF HEALTH: Mr Speaker and Honourable Members , I move that the Lebowa Nursing Amendment Bill , 1977 be read for the first time . I also request the Speaker to table the Bill . THE MINISTER OF WORKS :

I second the motion .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker , I move that the Lebowa Appropriation Bill 1977 be now read a second time . The budget for the financial year 1977 , which I presented to this Honourable House last year , provided for expenditure totalling R53 876 700 ; while the budgetory proposals for 1977-1978 , which I am now presenting provide for a total of R69 608 000 which constitutes an increase of R15 731 300 about 29,2% and the highest ever presented to this Honourable House . This increase of R15 731 300 is made up by increases on the votes of all the departments of this Government Service , and a slight decrease under the and are as follows : statutory amount , Vote 1 : Vote 2 : Vote 3 : Vote 4 : Vote 5 : Vote 6 : Vote 7 : Decreases

R441 228 5 380 3 639 1 083 495 4 469 3

Chief Minister and Finance .. Interior Works Education Agriculture and Forestry Justice ... Health Statutory amount

000 000 000 000 000 000 000 700

R15 731 300 The reasons for the increase may chiefly be ascribed to the following : ( 1 ) Salary increases of 20% with effect from the 1st July , 1976 , which have now to be provided for a full year , about ...... R27 700 000

(2 ) Increases in social pensions with effect from the 1st October , 1976 , ....... R2 700 009. which have now to be provided for a full year , about ... (3 ) Increase in the funds required for development works , about .... R3 400 000. I will now deal with various heads of revenue ...increase R375 700 . General saal T tax ... people are earning . ax our no increase Special Tax on citizens of Lebowa

This is due to higher and better

no increase .

90

No changes are expected in these two items . Hire of vehicles .... increase R120 000 Higher tariffs for the use of vehicles are effective , due to increase in prices of petrol and vehicles . Licence ( general ) ...... no increases . Stamp duties and fees ...... increases R25 000. Revenue received during the financial year 1976-1977 shows an increase in the late registration of birth fees , and it is expected that this tendency will continue . I appeal to the Lebowa people , please to register their children timeously . The birth of a child must be registered within 12 months of birth . Fines and forfeitures ....... increase R60 000. Fines received during this financial year show increase in traffic and other fines and it is expected that this tendency will continue . Pound fees ....... no increase . Pound of government property ...... increase R80 000. Better collection of rents are expected in the final year .

Forestry revenue ..... increase R300 000. Increased sales of forestry Agriculture products , and higher prices of new contracts are expected . revenue ..... increase R425 000. Higher revenue is expected on the anticipated increased production of sisal from the poultry project at Solomondale . Motor and drivers ' licenses ...... increase R70 000 . Honourable Members will remember that licence fees in respect of motor vehicles were increased during the December session . Patient fee ..... increase R410 000. In the financial year 1976-1977 , only clinic fees were collected under this revenue head , and this head of revenue has now been changed to accommodate all the various fees payable at the Lebowa state hospitals and clinics . Interest ....... decrease R190 000. It is expected that the surplus funds in the exchequer account will not be so freely availBoarding fees ...... increase able for investment as in the previous year . R140 000. More hostels with boarding accommodation are now available and the fees have been increased from the 2nd semester , 1976. Townships ..... increase R150 000. Rent on houses were increased on the 1st August , 1976 and receipts for the full year have been taken into account . Departmental and miscellaneous receipts ...... decrease ...... R357 000 . Hospital patient fees were collected under this head of revenue in the 1976-1977 financial year , and will now be included under the revenue head "patient fees . " The grant payable in terms of section 6 ( 2 ) ( c ) of the Bantu Homelands Constitution Act , 1971 has increased by R4 772 000 and the additional grant in terms of section 6 ( 2 ) ( d ) of the same Act ( other ) has decreased by R295 800 which gives a net increase of R3 206 200 to be received from the Central Government . To augment the revenue of this government and to provide for urgent services , the Cabinet has decided to raise a loan of R5 million in terms of the Lebowa General Loans Act , 1976 , passed last year by this Honourable House . These funds will be used to finance certain capital works as indicated in schedule A ( just behind Vote 3 ) of printed Estimates ( starting on page 18 and finishing page ) . The total estimated revenue for the financial year 1977-78 therefore amounts to R68 886 00 , and shows an increase of R9 814 900 above that of the previous year . Vote 1 that of the Chief Minister and of Finance , shows an increase of R441 000 in the amount to be voted by the Honourable House . I will briefly deal with the increase and decrease in the various main divisions of this Vote .

સ

Main Divisions A: Salaries , Wages , Allowances . Increase .R48 500 . This increase is mainly due to the 20% increase in salaries and wages with effect from the 1st July, 1976 , for which provisions has now to be made of a full year . Main Division B: Subsistance and Transport . Increase ... ...... R19 600 In the printed Estimate Sub Division D.1 shows an increase and Subdivision of D.4 a decrease against that provided for in the financial year 1976-1977 . This is on account of printing which will be required for the preparation of Hansard by ourselves and for ourselves , and for the completion of the contract with Lubbe Recording (Pty . ) Ltd. Main division E: Miscellaneous Expenses . Increase .... R345,900 . This increase is mainly due to the Government contributions per person are being deducted and the Government's share for full year with increase . Main Division F : Financial Assistance to Tribal and Community Authorities : Increase ..... ..... R20 000 Due to consideration is always given to the assistance required by Tribal and Community Authorities and I have therefore increased the amount allocated for these services and I request the Honourable House to approve of this . Main Division G: Allowances , Presents and refreshments , to chiefs , Headmen , etc. Increase ..R26 500 This increase is mainly due to the repeal of Section 7 of the Lebowa Payment and Privileges of Members of the Legislative Assembly Act , 1973. The payment of allowances to Magoši who are members of this Honourable House are thus now provided for . Honourable Members will notice that no provision has been made in the budget before you for expenses in connection with the raising of loans .Honourable Members will notice that no provision has been made in the budget before you , for expenses in connection with the raising of loans , such as Interest and redemption management costs , and the costs of raising of loans .This has been done so as negotiations for the loan of R5 million entered into between the Treasury of the Republic of South Africa indicated that the best time for the raising of such a loan is the first half of August 1977. Provision for the abovementioned costs will thus be made in the additional estimates to be presented in the Honourable House later in the year , as more firm details will then no doubt be available . Steps will have to be taken in the mean time to consider means and ways of increasing revenue collections , increasing rates and tariffs in order that the revenue fund may be strenthened , so that more fund become available for urgent services and for the cost and repayment of raising the loan . 1 . You have already been aware that the Commissioner- General Mr G.P.C. Bezuidenhout passed away on the 29th January 1977 and was laid to rest on the 2nd February 1977. On the 7th of March 1977 his successor the Hon . Dr. R. McLachlen presented his credentials to the Lebowa Cabinet at Seshego , when I had the pleasure of welcoming him on behalf of the Cabinet , the Lebowa Legislative Asssembly and all the Lebowa citizens . He expressed hope that in the interests of all concerned there would be cooperation .

2 . Members will remember that during the last session , this Honourable House passed the Lebowa Advisory Board Act , in collaboration with the

1

92

Cabinet I have designated the following as members of the Advisory Board of the Department : -

1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.

Kgosi M.M. Matlala Kgosi Motodi Sekhukhune Kgoši P. Thulare Kgosi K.E. Moloto Kgosigadi J. Mahlo Kgoši P. Ledwaba Kgoši E.S. Maja . I am confident that with their background and experience , these members of the bogoši of Lebowa will be able to solve the knotty problems involving chieftainship and boundaries between tribes which have been troubling us for so long . Regulations in terms of section 8 of the Advisory Board Act have still to be promulgated ; my department is busy with the framing of these Regulations and it is expected that the work will be completed shortly .

3.

The Honourable House will also remember that in my policy speech last year I said that the Lebowa and Gazankulu Cabinets and the Central Government had agreed to appoint a Committee of Inquiry into the boundaries between our two countries . This Committee will investigate the question of the boundaries in the districts of Mapulaneng , Bolobedu , Phalaborwa and any other area where the problem exists . The Committee of Inquiry has been appointed under the chairmanship of Mr H.0 . Uys of Pretoria and the three members representing Lebowa are Messrs . S.P. Kwakwa and B.D. Mphahlele . The Committee has already held a few meetings and is continuing with its work; it has been given six months within which to complete its investigation .

4.

The Lebowa Government now has four Urban Representatives whose areas are Northern Transvaal Region , Eastern Transvaal and Natal Region , Southern Transvaal and Orange Free State , Johannesburg ( including Western Transvaal and Cape Region ) . The representatives are a link between the Lebowa Government and the Lebowa citizens in the Urban areas . They carry out their duties with the assistance of their boards . Their duties are inter alia the following : -

(a) to advise Lebowa citizens about the correct channels through which to apply for work or residence in the urban areas . (b ) (c) (d)

(e) (f) (g) (h) (i ) (j ) (k)

direct Lebowa citizens to aid centres where these exist . report cases of discrimination against Lebowa citizens . assist the authorities to trace beneficiary in cases like compensation and unclaimed wages accruing to Lebowa subjects . assist and advise people desirous of taking up residence in the homeland e.g. businessmen and the aged to be concerned in the school committees , school boards , youth movements , holiday camps and rallies . advise Lebowa citizens who have property problems in the homeland . assist with applications for citizenship certificates . encourage citizens to vote in Lebowa elections . assist children in need of care . last but not least to collect Lebowa tax .

The Urban Representatives have so far established twelve boards in the urban areas while others are in the process of being formed . 5.

Although the death of Egoši S. Maraba and Kgoši A. Langa have been reported in the obituary it is my duty to the House that the Maloela Tribal Authority

93

under the late Kgosi S. Maraba has already decided on his successor and that acting Kgoši D.M. Langa has succeeded the late Kgosi M.E. Langa of Bakenberg . Several changes have taken place amongst the acting Magoŝi . Kgosi Mapipi Letsoalo of Mamathola has taken over from Kgosigaid Molobe Letsoalo , Kgoši Mishack Mashego of the Moreipušo Tribal Authority , Mapulaneng has taken over from acting Kgoši Magistraat Mashego . Acting Kgosi Masehle Kgaphola handed over to acting Kgoši Tserere Kgaphola . Acting Kgoši M.J. Langa took over from acting Kgoši Madikwe Langa . Acting Kgosi K.K. Sekhukhune took over from Kgoši Rhyne Sekhukhune . All these changes were effected at the request of the Bakgomana of the mešate concerned . The Cabinet and the State President approved of the decision of the Bakgomana . 6.

The Lebowa Tribal Authority spent an amount of R6 2881,32 on the development works during the 1975/76 financial year . This may appear to be a considerable sum, but if you consider that there are 129 tribal and community authorities, they are small and have limited incomes , with the result that most of the development work is being done by a relatively small number of tribal authorities to do everything in their power to increase their incomes so that they may also provide more and better facilities for their people . Over the last few years , the Lebowan Government has assisted tribal authorities with loans to purchase 58 ploughing units . Unfortunately many of these ploughing units have not been properly utilized and in many cases the tractors have broken down through neglect or misuse . Tribal authorities have therefore not been able to benefit from the increased revenue these ploughing units could have provided . Furthermore , many tribal authorities have not paid back the loans made to them to buy these ploughing units , heavy trucks etc. In fact at the moment the total amount outstanding on loans made by Lebowa since 1969 is over R299 000,00 . If tribal authorities repay loans to Lebowa as they should , it will be possible to make more money available to help them with grants and loans and I therefore call upon tribal authorities to do everything they can to pay their outstanding loans as soon as possible . Amongst other things Lebowa has also assisted 99 tribal authorities since 1969 with an amount of R104 260 to build or repair and to furnish their tribal offices .

Over the last few years Lebowa has also made grants to tribal authorities of larbe sums of money for the pruchase of bulls and rams , the building of clerks , nurses and maternity quarters , the purchase of tribal vehicles etc. While Lebowa will continue to assist tribal authorities financially, they themselves must explore every avenue to increase their revenue so that more development work can be tackled , which will benefit not only themselves but indirectly Lebowa as well . There is only one more amount I want to make to this hon . house . The hon . members will with no doubt recall that the busstop here in Pietersburg is in a disgraceful condition . There are no facilities , there are no amenities to speak of. The state is very chaotic and very unhy gienic . The Cabinet took this matter up with the Bantu Administration Board and Town Council of Pietersburg . And I am glad that there has been some progress in this negotiation . I have arranged that a circular letter from the Administration Board be circulated to the members for their information . It will be realised from this correspondence that the local authorities are taking steps to put that right and early next year or in the course of next year , there will be new premises for the people of Lebowa from whichever direction they come from . There will be proper amenities that deserve human beings . This is not only the attitude that the Cabinet has taken towards the Pietersburg environment but it is also the attitude that the Cabinet has taken to other Municipalities . And progress will be reported from time to time in this

94

regard . 1.

I want to say something about sovereign independence briefly: -

SOVEREIGN INDEPENDENCE : It is not necessary for me , Mr Speaker and Honourable House , to devote much time to the question of so - called sovereign independence since the stand of this Honourable House doesn't favour the so - called sovereign independence under prevailing circumstances . It has got its own priorities . This Government is fully in agreement with the stand . It is necessary however , to reiterate the fact that the people of Lebowa are indigenous inhabitants of this land and are South Africans and demand their full stake in the country . South Africa is the land of our birth and we must have a full share of her blessings and burdens . Domination and discriminations based on the grounds of colour , race or religion are unacceptable to us . In equalities of opportunities in education employment and other services, erode harmonious human relations and must be done away with . We demand justice and human dignity for all .

2.

May I touch on Transfer of land briefly. I feel that the time has come for the land held in trust by the South African Bantu Trust must be transferred to Lebowa Government . Although it is always said that such lands are at the disposal of the people of Lebowa yet it must be stated that possession of the land and the use of the fruit thereof are not synonymous with ownership . There is a vast difference between possession of property and ownership of property . It is my submission , that the Trust lands should be transferred without unnecessary delays from South Africans Trust to the Lebowa Government so that the latter acquires the right of ownership over such lands . I should be pleased to have the feelings and view of the Honourable House on this crucially important matter .

3.

VISIT OVERSEAS : During my recent visit overseas , accompanied by the Honourable Minister of Interior and Economic Affairs , I had occasion to discuss at some length with Mining Houses , about the mineral potential of Lebowa . I am satisfied with the results thus far . The company Dames and Moore of New York , U.S.A. , have undertaken to carry out satellite surveys throughout this territory and on their report Mining Houses be in a strong position to negotiate with us about mining operations . Dames and Moore are expected to start their surveys some time this year . The estimates of this current financial year have made provision for this important development . Regarding telephones and telecommunications , I have been able to discuss matters with I.T.T. and the latter has agreed to carry out surveys , free of charge , throughout Lebowa , determining our needs .....

THE SPEAKER : You'll forgive me , the time has already elapsed . House will adjourn for lunch .

The Honourable

LUNCH .

THE SPEAKER : Honourable Members , before we continue I have an announcement here . The announcement is that we shall hold the Speaker's banquet in the evening at Tladi's hotel . We shall need black attire for this banquet because we are black . This will take place at 7.30 p.m. The Honourable Chief Minister will proceed .

95

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker and Honourable Members , I would like to continue on my discussions of industrialisation of this territory4.

INDUSTRIALISATION : Details in this regard will be given by the various departments concerned . Suffice it however to say that this government is making every effort to build up the infrastructure required including that of manpower. Industrialists visit this territory in accross from various oversea countries with the aim to explore avenues for industrial enterprise . The Lebowa Development Corporation which has been established in the latter part of 1976 is already busy with ground-work for the proper co-ordination of activities in this field . The Department of Agriculture will deal with improvements in this regard in so far as these are genuine to agriculture . In order to make use of the expertise of the private sector , this government has already established a co-ordinating committee under the chairmanship of the Secretary, Department of Authority Affairs and Finance . Here all the departments are represented on the committee and experts from Commerce, Trade and Industry have been incorporated . A report on planning of Lebowa as a whole by the Professors of Pretoria University has been received already and is receiving the necessary attention . It will be easily realised that the economic and industrial activities , including mining are on the increase and justify the establishment of a portfolio of Economic Affairs as such with its own Ministry but I am still doing battle with Pretoria on this issue . I hope to succeed . I may add that on this particular point , the latest I heard from Mr M.C. Botha was that the matter lies between me and his Excellency the Commissioner- General , the Honourable Dr MacLachlan . I hope to liaison with Dr. the Honourable as soon as I have the opportunity . 5.

RAILWAY LINE : This government is negotiating with Railway Authorities for the construction of a railway line from Immerpan to Lebowakgomo . Also landing airstrip for aircraft for Lebowakgomo is being investigated . We are further reiterating to-

6.

KGOŠIGADI KEKANA AND HER PEOPLE : The Honourable members might have heard from the press and elsewhere , that Kgošigadi Kekana and her Councillors approached this government with a request that they fall under the Lebowa Government since they had seceded from Bophuthatswana . This is perfectly true . This government has without hesitation acceded to their request . Already Pretoria has been notified and only recently did the Cabinet hold discussions with Kgošigadi Kekana and her tribal council here in Seshego in the presence of the Commissioner- General . In addition , we requested for an interview with the Honourable Minister of Bantu Administration and Development when we will sort out several problems that go along with this secession . It should be added too that the Mapai in the Eastern Transvaal in the area of Sabie are also keen to fall under Lebowa and have approached this government . Discussions are afoot with the Honourable Minister of Bantu Administration and Development in this regard .

7.

REGARDING EXTERNAL AFFAIRS : I have already indicated that many industrialits from overseas visit Lebowa to see things for themselves . There is no doubt whatsoever that the industrialists are deeply impressed favourably by conditions in Lebowa and Lebowa is now not only on the political map but it is also and certainly on the industrial and cultural map .

96

8.

9.

CONCERNING DOMESTIC AFFAIRS : It is gratifying to point out that the Cabinet has had opportunity in the course of this year to mect formally with the Town Councils of Pietersburg and Potgietersrus to discuss matters of common interest namely trasport , employment opportunities , amenities and human relations . These discussion were most enlightning and have had the effect of establishing bridges of friendship and understanding between White and Black so badly needed in this country . FINALLY A BRIEF COMMENT ON THE VISIT TO CAPE TOWN BY LEBOWA PARLIAMENTARY MISSION: Recently, Mr Speaker , accompanied by the Deputy Speaker , Secretary and Assistant Secretary of this Legislative Assembly , the Leader of the House , Minister of Public Works , Minister of Health as well as the Chief Whip and the Assistant Whip visited Parliament in Cape Town on a study tour . From their report , Mr Speaker, Sir , their visit was fruitful and I am hopeful that they will share their experience freely with this Honourable House . It is obvious that in our political evolution , Lebowa is a young state and has in our young state many things to learn and Lebowa should do so as quickly as possible . The visit to Cape Town was meant to provide avenues for such learning . Mr Speaker and Honourable Members , it is now a great pleasure for me to table the 1977/78 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for consideration of this House and for approval . Mr Speaker , Sir !

SPEAKER : Now you have heard Honourable House . Now this matter will be discussed accordingly and how the rule permits . We can now continue by listening to your opinions . The Honourable Mr M.W. Kgatla from Bolobedu . MR M.W. KGATLA: Mr Speaker , Sir, it is almost the duty of this House shall I call it after a Minister has given speech should be handed over to the members for their perusal , besides the fact that , that hasn't been done , we know it will be done in due course . I have the following thought - provoking questions . A motion was passed in this Legislative Assembly last year that Education is priority number one in this territory and that from the total budget 35% up to 40% should be allocated to Education . The Chief Minister and his Secretary should not bother themselves - my questions are written , some explanations will be handed over seeing that 35 % or up to 40% - that we passed a motion that they should be allocated to Education , what explanation can you give to this House? In 1975/76 the Education vote was 34% of the total budget , last year 1976/77 it was 24,8 - 10% less . 1977/78 24,1% less than last year 12 % of the previous year . The Central Government will always tell us that we don't have manpower . Why are you busy decreasing the Educational percentage each year? For the last four years I have been listening to you debating the policy speech of the Chief Minister . I have been talking of - we are going to improve water supply for domestic and animals use etc. that was priority number two .

The percentage allocated to Agriculture which is now serving us with water in 1975/76 was 13,89% , something of that kind . Last year 9,9% less every year . I need a thorough explanation on this . Kindly supply this House with the monetary figure on Lebowa taxes from respective districts for record purposes? I ask this question very simply. The Government of Lebowa is onesided and the people who are contributing more , get nothing. What they get is promises . Unfraitful promises . In your speech you said nothing about the increment in salaries and allowances of the

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Members of Parliament . Why because prices are going sky high every day in the commodity of the outside market . Gazankulu has increased its own , Qwaqwa has increased its own ; Mangope has increased his own . Are you scared to the fact that Mr Botha says don't ask me anything about money until 1978? You mentioned nothing about the people of Lebowa living in Senthumule and Kgwathama in the areas of the Vendas . And yet the Magistrate in that local authority has told the Sothos that the Central Government has told me that the Sothos must vacate that place between June and July, 1977 and how do you account for that? My people in the east are very angry about the deliberations because you have forgotten us totally . We are the most people who are contributing money in this House or in this government . And my people are thinking otherwise . And this is very important . I am coming to the end of speech , Mr Speaker . I will read this sentence : what will be a yardstick and what are the priorities that will determine that we can accept sovereign independence or autonomous authority? We have been operating within the system of separate development policy for the last 26 years . Surely we were preparing ourselves for something . And your speech right through is this that we don't want independence , we don't want autonomy, we don't want anything we stand exactly where we are . I don't say go for the Mangope's thing nor go for the Matanzima's thing , but I want to ask what were we being doing for the last 26 years if we come to standstill and say we don't want anything? Shall I sound this warning , Mr Speaker , the nine farms are gone in Nebo area , such a number of farms will go in the Moutse area . I have fear and I say some of farms will go in the Potgietersrus , Groblersdal , right down perhaps 24 rivers , right down to Beauty the last area of our country . You did well to take side from Sekgosese , Bolobedu , Naphuno , and Phalaborwa and Mapulaneng . That land is going to the Shangaans because Lebowa doesn't want anything . Lebowa is either ambiguous . Since 1973 we talk of more land , we don't even say it out what we want . Pretoria is cutting Lebowa on sides and we are supposed to occupy just a piece of land . I now appeal to you through , Mr Speaker , to the Chief Minister if you have anything to discuss with Sir de Villiers Graaff and Collins Eglin, Theo Gerdner, you must consult us first and know our wishes and our beliefs and what we want; otherwise we have been long in this thing and we achieving nothing . And here it is the Central Government as the Honourable are Minister of Education said " those Boers say when telling us , that they want to do this and we are refusing so they will do it by force . " Dikgoši those lands of yours known as " crown lands " are locations . The Central Government has taken them and turned them into Trust lands . Trust land means that the government has that power to do anything about it . It can remove someone from it and settle another one and so forth .

You have no say in that . The Manthata issue is an example thereof . Besides that we have Mapoch case . We have sighted the whole eastern portion thing . Our Cabinet knows these affairs ; let us inform it before we plan for these people . Do what you owe now, unless you have bought a piece of land you are a tenant there . I have sounded a warning , Mr Speaker , thank you . MR H.M. LESHABANE : Mr Speaker , firstly I want to thank the Honourable Chief Minister for his policy speech . It is true the Honourable Members , usually all things cannot be spoken . The Hon . Chief Minister, we have problems concerning the revenue income of Lebowa . I suggest that these revenue funds should be worked by the Regional Authority sothat we should know how much each Tribal Authority of so much members contributes . I say since I have

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learned that there are funds which help the tribes of Lebowa and I don't know which are they? Since I was born such assistance was never extended to my place . I just understand that you helped ntona Pheeha's people by buying them a car . The Hon . Chief Minister this will cause you trouble because you care for dintona and neglect dikgoši . I therefore request you to give me a clear reply sothat I can be able to explain to my people the type 0. people who are assisted and those who are not assisted . Mr Speaker , I feel pain for the Kgothama and Senthumule fall under my constituency . During elections , they have elected me . The Hon . the Chief Minister and I and the rest knows much about problems of Senthumule and Kgothama concerning education and others . This matter should have been stated in the policy speech of the Chief Minister . If that has been forgotten , that's a sad story. I don't know what to say if ever that was forgotten , or do they felt that it was unnecessary? I don't know. The Hon . Chief Minister , through you the Speaker , I have told you many atimes when you came at Sekgosese that the Manthata affair does not satisfy us even a bit . I've said so so that whenever you were preparing your policy speech you should include this so that I may get an answer . I was surprised when this case was not mentioned because I told you that my people want to know why people are getting removed by the Lebowa Government without coming to inform them if ever it succeeded or not? To inform you the Hon . Chief Minister , these people pay the Lebowa Tax . It is alleged that they have been settled to the land which has not yet been officially allocated to Lebowa . How come , do you allow your people getting placed here and there without your concern? Mr Speaker , this water affair was once well - investigated . I was promised that a lot of funds will be reserved so that the people of Lebowa and their domestic animals should get water to drink . But when going around our constituency we don't see any progress . Is it not nice to tell us what problems are? Whether it be money or what so that we should help . Mr Speaker , I have been sent by the people who elected me and if this matter beats me I will have to resign from this Parliament . I won't wait to be caused to resign . They have told me to inform you the Speaker , that 40% of the monies of Lebowa should be used for the education of the children of Lebowa . When I ask what is wrong they said the snag is that your schools here are filled with unqualified teachers for grants are not there . I went to the circuit office at my area to inquire if ever there was qualified teachers who want job. I was told there were 67 qualified teachers who want job and could not be given any since grants were not there . It is said that the Venda Government has hired either 16 or 17 of these teachers About 9 are working in Gazankulu because grants are available . When we explain our situation of lack of grants , to them it is a joke for they say they are looking for teachers . They have grants but no manpower . , The Speaker , the Hon . the Chief Minister is a well - educated somebody , whom I know that he loves education and I don't know who might have confused him that the state of affairs be in this manner . According to my opinion I don't think he is responsible for all these failures . There must be somebody else who might be confusing him and wishing to lend him in difficulties . During the last December it was said here that you don't estimates are been done and you denied . For this reason these estimates are being drafted by somebody ; actually to the hired shepherd who when seeing the oncoming wolf, away . He doesn't wait for those sheep .

have any say when I believe that you are similar he starts running

With submission , Mr Speaker , let us know that we are here to do what people

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like us to do but not what we want to do . The former speaker have attempted to tell you that the whole Lebowa is getting reduced, and we see this happening . I am afraid because I am involved and in the history it will be said things got messed up during the time when Mr Leshabane was also a member of the Parliament . I am really afraid for our children will beat our graves for it will be very much painful to those who will be living , seeing all these happening . I would like that we should amend this book of estimates . If it is impossible this Parliament should be closed so that things should go the way you have planned . If not so all the government services should rather be stopped . Now if this can go well , I then request through you , Mr Speaker , that a study committee be selected to study this book only to enable us to know what we do with the estimates . We have things which need an urgent attention and those that can wait for two years before they are started . I conclude by saying our neighbours , the Vendas and Tsongas don't know a private teacher any longer . We here in Lebowa claim greatness but our matters get messed up without any action being taken . One man once mentioned that there is a saying outside that " leave them to make noise but there is nothing that could be done . " I want to request the seconded- officials and the Commissioner-General that if they are here to help us , they should do this with good spirit . Don't help us in a bad way. Now shall we do as you do you seconded-officials for it is claimed that you have knowledge , but your knowledge doesn't make us to progress , and it doesn't satisfy us . When we are talking , you say we rebuke you , we don't reproach you but need help ....

THE SPEAKER : Order ! Order! I don't stop you from speaking . I just inform you that the rule doesn't allow you to point with fingers at someone when talking for he cannot reply for himself . Just respect the rules . MR H.M. LESHABANE : I was saying , Mr Speaker , that let us form one bunch so as to defeat what is standing before us . I don't fight with the Cabinet but I want it to understand that let us be of the same mind all of us . I conclude by saying that the 40% affair for education in Lebowa be done now . All the moneys which are supposed to help in the development of tribes we are going to take them for the provision of grants . These tribes should stand on their own as we do . Just now we pay school levies , funds for building schools at my place and other things . We should have taken even all the moneys to be used for entertainments when visitor came . We shall also get a little from the Department of Works because we passed a Bill for loans . And we must see it working . Even this banquet you are talking about should be cancelled , Mr Speaker . We don't want it any longer . Could we put on black suits while we have been sent to perform their duties? Should they hear that we have been enjoying the banquet , nicely dressed whilst you say Lebowa has no funds? Even your journey of opening shops and attending funerals must be done away with . Those are family matters but not yours . It is for the third time I heard that you went to Johannesburg . What are you doing there? I have my office there and I am going to work. I want you to work here in Lebowa where you have been hired . You are getting paid for working here . Not to go around anywhere you like . You are doing less office job and you are doing more to move about . My people , this thing must be stopped . If you pay a visit to Sekgosese you must also come to my place . Don't go to the hotels because we don't have money . If you go to Mapulaneng you must visit Mr Mamiane's home . You must save money until things go well . If you see them roaming about they have saved money already . To save money is to cut down unnecessary expenses . To be invited somewhere else for opening shops , bottle stores and so forth is unnecessary expenses . What is that relevant to the government?

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Particularly a poor government like this one? So , Mr Speaker , I have sounded a warning to everybody and I think I have the co-operation of this House that most of the unnecessary expenses be cut down . I know some of the people may think that I am mad , but I have a mandate to carry out . And to carry out a mandate is to give service to my people . I am here to work for people but not for the people to work for me . I get my salary as a result of the tax paid by the people . I was elected by the people . My people expect me and my collegues in this Parliament to develop Lebowa . Cabinet or no Cabinet we are at the same level , which is to render service to the people of Lebowa . The people are justified to tell us exactly what they don't want us to do . that the people's With respect , Mr Speaker and my collegues I hereby say money should be saved whether we like it or not . With these words I hope to get a co-operation from my collegues . Fourty percent of the funds should go to the Department of Education . I want your support in this regard . Thank you! THE MINISTER OF WORKS : Mr Speaker and the Honourable Members , I thank you all . I support the two former speakers but I won't speak in such a way as to please them in this House . We have agreed that we Lebowans don't want Matanzima's independence because we have already seen it . We can even see how Mangope's independence will look like when it comes . Now the Hon . Members think ; there can be another form of independence if the members deem it fit for independence should discuss it in this House to avoid blaming somebody in the future . When our land is getting reduced it is due to the fact that we refuse independence , this is the trouble of this House . It is now the time for this Honourable House to decide to opt for independence or not . Besides the Honourable Members , there is nobody who can opt for independence alone . When the Honourable Members have gone out and came with new ideas , let them bring them to the House for discussions . The Honourable Members should not complain that we lose something because we refuse independence . The fault lies with this House if we can be deprived of something . I hope that the homelands which increased the salaries of their members of Parliament is that they have opted for independence . This Honourable House has asked the Hon . Mr M.C. Botha funds and he gave them . He even told them that they should not come again until 1978. Because these Honourable Members are cowards since that time they have asked nothing , prices are getting up everyday . Now that time has come let us go and ask him like we did last time . There is nobody who can ask money alone . We don't have to spent all the funds and even lack funds for the Speaker's banquet . We must close this Parliament earlier for we spent thousands rands per day . The homelands that excel us is because they spent three weeks in Parliament and that is all ……….. (NOISE ) ..... To show that they talk something they become successful . We spent three months here and nothing becomes successful . We discuss nothing in this House . Mr Speaker and the Honourable House , you should consider that education is not only the one provided at school by the Department of Education . If you build a bridge so that scholars and the inspectors ' car should cross they don't regard this as education because they don't know. If you buy machines to improve sisal plantation at Chloe they don't regard it as education because they don't know .....

It is for a long time I had been in this house , Mr Speaker . I am just straight forward in talking . I speak the truth . I am not protecting some body else , I was just saying that if the members are talking about education should know that this is not the only one provided at school . If they talk about independence it is their concern . If they speak about eating money it is they who squander it . They should know all these .

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KGOŠI M.M. MATHABATHA : Mr Speaker , I thank you for having given me this chance . In the policy speech of our Honourable the Chief Minister we get reasons and some we still lack them . We know that we have our own people in Mabopane and we hear nothing about them whereas we know that they are suffering . We should be careful of Mabopane and Rankuwa . It is said that Rankuwa is to be handed over to Mangope and our people there don't belong to Mangope . Mr Speaker , the fact is that if we don't be careful in the western side and on the boundaries first we are going to lose . I have forgotten the trips that were counted but I was there in the trips going around the regional authorities . We were even asking what the people were complaining about . These trips were wasting a lot of time . Just imagine if seven Ministers have gone out to survey land how many people of Lebowa are getting to their offices? Trips also should all be stated so that we should know. That's why, Mr Speaker , I say some of the issues should also be stated . Mr Speaker , we travelled widely instead of staying here and discuss matters of our tribes at home . We viad Manyeleti and Modjadji when we were getting to the boundaries . Instead of wasting such a lot of time would it not be serving the purpose if the Chief Minister appointed a commission to look into the matter? Then the commission will come and report to the Parliament and this be discussed . I want to say one thing . We should not be frightened if something funny happens to this House . Nothing can happen if the Chief Minister is there , we vowed that we shall support him day and night . I still discourage this point that we went out to do some investigation on boundaries . This is very much dangerous and I am very much unsatisfied for we found Shangaans setting a house in which there was somebody on fire . I thought the boundary- issue would cause the division of the Parliament, unfortunately it was not the case . Mr Speaker , we are serious about the education affair . I don't want to repeat what I've so far heard . If really we shall have private teachers here in Lebowa , this should be solved now because if the Minister of Education gets his chance we would be at loggerheads . You'll find a private teacher being not clear with his subject-matter and teaching 100 pupils . I am talking what is happening even now. We can say many things like building of bridges etc. but if we don't have the foundation of which is education we can't afford anything . I support the two speakers that emphasized a point on education . I emphatically support them because if we draw back in education we won't have something . Thank you ! MR M.T.D .. LEBOHO : Mr Speaker , I want to pose this question . What makes a child at school to pass? A child must get 50% of the marks alloted or 50%+ . But still you could find that he has failed in certain subjects . Even a child that has got first class pass you find he has failed a certain subject . With this example , Mr Speaker , I am trying to bring you nearer to the policy and the budget speech of our Chief Minister , which I maintain even if you can consider the policy speeches of those you praise they won't match . If you go around Lebowa who will praise his kgoši ? Even dikgoši who are doing their best you'll find that they are highly critized . We are busy looking at this paper and people are busy criticizing . No comments are made about the industries that are established in Lebowa . No comments are made about the commercial field that is going to be established in Lebowa . No school that is going to be built at Lebowakgomo.

Mr peaker, I maintain that the comparison must be 50%. People give us unsuitable comparisons which are not even related to the policy speech . Criticism must be constructive . Mr Speaker, I will explain what is meant by Education . I am sure the explanation will take fourteen pages or more . The hon . the Chief Minister is aiming high in his policy speech . It is only an Honourable Member with a foresight who can see where he is aiming at . We in Lebowa are aiming at specilization . We are not merely aiming at

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talking . Mr Speaker , somebody once said if you have something to say, say it out. But I don't know why should this paper be criticized . MR I.M. MODJADJI : Mr Speaker , I have only two questions to ask. Mr Speaker , last time we left here with the Chief Minister's permission to go and see lands which the Shangaans and Lebowa residents are quarelling for . Mr Speaker, I am sure that that journey from Sekgosese to Bolobedu , Naphuno up to Mapulaneng has given me a great lesson . The one who got no lesson Mr Speaker , I think he must not be among us here . Mr Speaker, we learned great lessons by the time we were there . Wherever we went we found Shangaans and Lebowans mixed up . Lastly , Mr Speaker , they intermarry . Wherever we were going to we were asking , that I am sure of . Then if you look at this matter you'll find that it was not formulated by this Legislative Assembly or the one which has passed . The whole matter was formed by Pretoria . It is Pretoria which took some of our lands , handed them over to the Shangaans and some of the Shangaans lands to the Sothos . Where Shangaans are settled they refuse removal and claim that the land was officially allocated to them. " The law under which the Sothos were given land is also applicable to us ." So they say . So to say Lebowans can do what they can but that land they cannot get . Now what are we going to do , Mr Speaker? Are we going to continue fighting with the Shangaans ? I have started working here in 1969. Mr Speaker , actually I have started in 1964 and this case was there when we were still with the late Chief Chuene . I suggest if ever the House agrees with me , that we should leave this matter to the Cabinet and ask for a procedure of doing amalgamation with the Shangaans . We give our Cabinet a mandate to consult the Cabinet of Gazankulu on this matter . This is my suggestion because when Blacks fight against each other there won't be an end in this . Mr Speaker , it is for a long time that people outside have been asking us when are they going to be allowed to buy farms . If this can't happen we should get a good explanation . If it will happen we must know when? Thank you , Mr Speaker . MR S.P. KWAKWA : Mr Speaker , the former speaker raised this question . They were very much worried about this question of the vote given to Education and I am equally concerned . Perhaps the way they put it was violent . We are very much concerned about the position of our Education i.e. the development of our education . The Vendas and the Shangaans have abolished a double session . We know that in the papers it has been pronounced that the urban areas are not abolishing double session only but even to cut down a quarter of children per teacher and they are even going to build schools . In Lebowa the communities are prepared to build schools and the government will continue buying books for their children as long as teachers are there to teach them. In the White areas childre are supplied with books and this does not happen here . The limited number of books is not anything to talk about . And I feel there is some concern , that we should get clarification from the Chief Minister , why was the vote for Education not raised a little bit? What is important is that we should try to find out what is the difficulty , why can't the Cabinet or theChief Minister raise the vote for Education? This question may be irrelevant . Somebody outside said to me " of course our Cabinet does it - they prepare the budget and then Benbo slags it . I don't know if that is true or not , you need not answer that question, Mr Chief Minister . I do hope that when we listen to the Education speech we shall be able to point out why certain things cannot be met out of this allocation .

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I now want to refer to the question of boundaries . It is a pity that some members of this House went with us to the boundaries with their eyes closed . If you are prejudiced you should never go into a thing because you will see nothing . The visit to the boundaries was very much important . It brought the issue right into our eyes . It made us appreciate the difficulties of the people . It made us aware the danger that has faced Lebowa in losing the land . It is only when you have had an insight in the issue that you'll be able to understand this and have a proper approach . Now what worries me is that the Committee to which I belong is still going into this issue of the boundaries . When the speaker at Mapulaneng spoke of Calculta , Madras and Marite being given to the Shangaans I knew what he was talking about and what we have on record as Commission . Is it that those places are not yet allocated? But according to the report we got there they have been already taken . We feel this is the strategy of Pretoria or Whites who are anti-Lebowa and who are busy carrying out what has not been decided . The idea I got was that the Shangaans are being made to occupy certain parts so that when the Commission gives the report it can be argued out that they were there . Now why do you remove them, don't you think it is ihnuman to remove people who have already settled? My appeal to the Chief Minister through the Commissioner- General is that he should go to Pretoria to inform them that other unwanted things were happening before the Commission commenced with its duties . These are done by White officials . It is said that G.G. cars were at Mapoch's place and they will be granted certain areas before the Commission starts working . I foresee a danger if an immediate action is not taken . Thank you , Mr Speaker . MR L.M. MADISHA : Thank you , Mr Speaker ! The Honourable Members , I stand to support the former speaker for Bolobedu , Mr I.M. Modjadji in his speech concerning the trip to the boundaries . The boundaries affair has shown us something that was unknown to us and now we can discuss what is known to us . I think it is very much important if theCabinet could discuss this matter with the Cabinet of Gazankulu . His mentioning of intermarriage that exists between the Sothos and Shangaans is truth . The whole Lebowa we are staying with Shangaans , working together and some of them have elected us to represent them in this Parliament . If it was not a self-made problem of boundaries there could be no troubles . Just because it is known that those people are foreigners . They had procedurally entered the place wherein they are found today and were welcome by dikgoši there . It was then that time when it was said to them this land belongs to you , where the trouble started . I say let there be a talk between the two Cabinets before the Commission sets in . It is very much rediculous if we Blacks fight against each other . Therefore I second , Mr Modjadji .

KGOŠI A.S. MOLEPO : Mr Speaker, we have listened how the Hon . the Chief Minister read his Budget Speech . It is true that it is nice and readable . But it seems there are some things left out in his Budget Speech . There is a report that there are certain magoši who have been put to the thrones and some who stand on their behalf . We at Thabamoopo are surprised because there are magoši which are not included here . We had our Kgoši Mothiba here but this report does not show anything about him. Again in Thabamoopo we have Kgoši Moepadira Mphahlele who is late and now Kgošigadi Ngwanamohube Mphahlele but all these matters are not there in the Chief Minister's report . That case surprises us if it is not announced to the Parliament . Again in his report mention is being made of the boundaries affair which our Parliament had to pay a visit to the East . Something surprising he mentions nothing about the quarells which are there here in Lebowa of the chiefs in connection with boundaries . I say so because there has been a number of dikgoši that came to the Chief Minister's office in connection with their boundaries . All these I want to know when will they be included and what will be done with them .

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Again in the Chief Minister's speech there is nowhere mentioned about the trouble between Phasha and Nchabeleng who were placed on the same farm and ultimately fought . We want to know how our Government ended up this squable . Since 1973 until now the magoši and people of Lebowa are fighting each other. It is surprising why this case is not mentioned . Is this not considered as something? Mr Speaker , last time our seven Ministers paid visits to our regional authorities . I was surprised by the news they brought to us for they were unnecessary . They wanted to know if ever we had complaints whilst they already knew that the tribes have complaints . We are surprised why they come during the last year to ask us what we were complaining about . What we have noticed is that the Lebowa Cabinet is wasting money by going up and down having nothing to come and tell us . They came there by seven cars and drivers . Can't they see that they are wasting? How impossible it is that they can make use of three or four cars i.e. two Ministers in a car and the Chief Minister in his and come to ask us about our complaints . That matter does not satisfy us . In the speech of our Chief Minister there is no where it is mentioned about state schools . We have a number of state schools which should be cared for by our government . We went around them and found only two which were being cared by the government . Some are not cared for and we find it better if they could be given to us for care . On estimates of our Chief Minister's speech there is some funds , miscelleneous . As I see it , is R2 214 00. In the Education vote I see R3 300. But now we could find that our government is lacking teachers .... THE MINISTER OF WORKS : Mr Speaker , I say the talking member has already got into the matters which we are not yet in . If we go clause by clause it is then that we will come to them . MR SPEAKER : Honourable Members , the Honourable Member is not out of order . Let me read so that you can understand . The debate shall be confined to the financial and economic state of Lebowa and the general principle of the government's policy . Go on!

KGOŠI A.S. MOLEPO : Here there is a considerable amount of R2 - million . When we look in the Department of Education of which is the foundation of our development we find a little amount , R7 300 ; whilst we don't have teachers in Lebowa, actually teachers are there but funds are lacking . Just now if we can ask how many grants are there in the Department of Education , you'll find that it has only 500. Now if you can take R2 214 00 and estimate the number of teachers it can afford , you'll find that a considerable number of teachers can be employed . I think it will be better if we transfer R3 300 from Education to miscellaneous . What happened last year is that we said that Education should take 40% of our purse . THE SPEAKER :

Please try to avoid repetitions .

KGOŠI A.S. MOLEPO : Now we want to know how did it come because we wished it so that the Department of Education should get more funds than the other votes that were available? Mr Speaker , in connection with a boundary - issue some Honourable Members suggest a dialogue between the Sothos and Shangaans because we are all Blacks . Now how many types of Whites are there in South Africa? Are they also divided as we are? What is it that makes them to divide us ? These are things that bring us into loggerheads . On this matter it is necessary that our government should consult the other neighbouring governments to form one thing . Here in Seshego we have Vendas and Shangaans . We intermarry with the Vendas and Tsongas , now what causes division ? Let us form one thing .

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THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I thank the Honourable Speaker . I have been listening to the speakers who spoke here before me . Everyone has said what he wanted to say , but Mr Speaker you should remember that no one is as blind as a man who does not want to see . A blind man will always try to convince other people that he can see certain things . But a man who does not want to see you can't do anything with him . I have listened to criticism that has been levelled at this government . And I am one of these people who will be ready to accept criticism . But criticism must be constructive I have been asking myself what the sense is , what the intention is , what the feeling is , what the tone is of the criticism and I don't see any objective in what I heard except a few who contributed objectively or productively . It is always best to ask and criticize when one has the information . The preconceived conclusions will always mislead a man even if he could see , I have heard criticism regarding our trip which ended at Mapulaneng and Phalaborwa and all those who went there with an open mind to see could clearly see what the situation looks like and appreciate especially the speech made at Ga-Mokoena . It is only the faultfinders who will never see anything and who will never appreciate anything .......

THE SPEAKER : Order ! Stop a bit . The Honourable House , I am not going to allow this point that when the members would like to run away from the House should send messengers to come and collect their documents . Messengers are only for this House . Don't send any of them to bring your suitcase when you want to run away . Be careful Honourable Members . If I can see a messenger carrying a suitcase I'll stop him and order him to come and call you back . Continue Honourable Member ! THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : When I was getting to Mapulaneng I went there with an open heart knowing that this House is interested in the trip and would like to learn . And I never met any who said something discouraging about this trip . If they were there , they could be remaining but those who went there I knew that they went there with open hearts , wishing to see , willing to help , willing to know and should enjoy having gained something from this trip . To come and say that the Cabinet is responsible for this trip without the Hnourable House's consent I don't think it is true . I see that trip as a nice and successful one and wish to add by saying this :

I am very very grateful and should congratulate the Honourable the Minister of the Interior for what he has done in that area . Judging from the tempers that we saw there we should congratulate a man who succeeded in keeping the tempers down until the whole Parliament came to see for itself . And it is for this House to appreciate his effort and now to aid and support him by giving him more strength instead of criticizing not objectively . I have heard remarks that he has campaigned successfully for the next election . And he being a member of the Ruling Party here , if he has succeeded in that why he should not be happy about it? How can a loyal and honest member of a party feel sorry and sad when his collegue has campaigned successfully? I have a policy speech of Education now. The Honourable Members seem to be more interested in Education than in any other thing . I would appeal to the House to wait until I have read my speech. I am not against asking certain questions relevant to the speech of the Chief Minister but to go into details into it then you are pre- reading my speech before hand .

And Mr Speaker , to compare our effort with Gazankulu it is to make the most erroneous comparison . In Gazankulu I got it from the papers that they have only 24% primary schools , 42 secondary schools , 9 high schools and

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two training schools ; and there is only one trade school . If this information I have be correct , then it is very wrong to compare us with Gazankulu . How can you compare 303 schools to another Department over a thousand and five hundred schools ? A real thing would be for this House to help us get money for our schools , because this House has come here - the Honourable Members have come here to this House for that purpose . We are even training here at Madikoti - we are training 50 Gazankulu citizens . Again someone has rightly suggested that we of Lebowa inter-married to the Shangaans and the Vendas . For your information we intermarry with Xhosas , the Zulus and Tswanas . I was able to attend certain functions in the Transkei and at Stanza . At Stanqa the other day in Natal , just the other day I was at the Hon . Mr Leboho's place , there we mixed and mingled freely with the Tswana people and even the Minister of Justice of Botswana was there . And what I heard from this House ' Lebowa is ripe ' because it has Tswana , Tsonga , Zulu , Sotho and school for every nation . Lebowa is at present very ready - it is more ready than any other homeland to accept and absorb every homeland into it because we have even provided for their languages . Now , Honourable Members , here lies the snag . Lebowa is so much in front and so enlightened that other homelands will not want to join up with it because they feel inferior . I held some discussions with a few Ministers one from Gazankulu and one from Bophuthatswana . It is just a conversation . I posed this question . What would be wrong in our being one big government in South Africa? And in both questions the reply was who will be the Chief Minister? Who will be the Minister of Education? Now this suggestion is very good that has been brought here . It is only that someone who is not Black who will not appreciate it . And what can we do? Instead they are encouraging splinter groups more than the splinter groups we have . Now what we stated there has been committed by this Cabint or this government . If this House would get deeper into that and give the Cabinet what it wants , so much the better for the Cabinet . I wish to add that something has been said about state schools . You should wait until the speech is read when questions will be put or answered . Although it is before time I should inform the Honourable House that the Department of Works has offered to undertake certain projects on behalf of the Department of Education because I feel it necessary that we should know this even before we discuss this matter first . The Department of Works has undertaken to spend R7 76200 for certain projects in my Department . I am just trying to indicate that some contributions have been made . But Honourable Members , we would make progress if this House would look at this speech objectively and criticizes it as it is , objectively and productively . I think the time has come that we here in Lebowa should not be faultfinders every year . Leave a weak remark about a thing and give something better to that . If that happens then you'll be guiding this Cabinet . Thank you , Mr Speaker !

KGOŠI T.J. MOTHAPO : Mr Speaker , the way this matters of the year appear in the Policy Speech of the Hon . Chief Minister , they reflect the following to me : People from Mapulaneng , Sekgosese , Bolobedu , Naphuno and Phalaborwa have been cared for by this government as the day before we visited the place to investigate how things were going on there . There are three things I took a note of during this journey . Firstly , an ostritch has hatched . Secondly is that the Chief Minister will rule for ever . Thirdly and the last is that the woman can't be pregnant for four years without giving birth to a child by operation . These are what

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I have learned on the journey . What I've took a notice of is that : we made use of tax funds amounting to R5 350,80c for transport only . When I look at this amount there is ware and tear for the seven cars we made use of, which is R1 508,80 . The expenditure for damages when coming back can be R3 822 ... THE SPEAKER : Order! Order ! I hope you read the rule the Honourable Kgoši that when giving a statement you should be able to substantiate . The rule says so . Continue!

KGOŠI T.J. MOTHAPO : I am still coming to that , Mr Speaker . This matter I took from the miles of the bus by which we were travelling . We travelled a distance of 538 kilometres . This money we could have taken , Mr Speaker , and given it to the children of Lebowa or Education and then they made use of it for employing teachers we would have gained . That's the way I see matters from the trip which was claimed to be interesting . Mr Speaker , if we seriously want to care for our education and the Chief Minister also is serious when he says let us care for our education ; let us devise means that our education becomes the real one . It should not be an education of a low standard . On the vote of the Chief Minister ( e ) , there is R190 000 ; he says is for grants and assistance to the tribal authorities and communities . If we judge this , Mr Speaker though it is assistance , the amount to assist these tribes is not enough for they build schools . The government has not yet reached the stage where it build schools for tribes . We still build for ourselves . In the speech of the Chief Minister , it is mentioned that there are grants and loans given to the tribes and they have not yet repaid them . There ought to have been question why this happens . An answer is that these tribes are busy building schools for this government . Such monies should have been grants and not loans , because these tribes build schools for the government . Mr Speaker , through you , I ask the Chief Minister this question . Between ga-Makageng and Mothiba and between Mothiba and Mothapo how many border posts are there when coming from this side? When coming that side it says Pietersburg boundary . When going the other side it says Lebowa border . What do they mean? Does it not mean the coming independence is on the way? Doesn't it mean that we are near to resemble Transkei? If the answer is no , what do they want there? In 1975 we talked about this border posts . The Cabinet refused this . Now those things are still going on . Those were refused due to this reason . We can't allow border posts for it will mean that we are opting for the independence which was opted by Matanzima . Matanzima received independence on the 26 October , 1976. During November last year border posts were created here in Lebowa .

THE SPEAKER : Order! tomorrow at 10h00 .

It is time up , we shall stop our discussions until

THE

HOUSE

ADJOURNED .

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1977 :

WEDNESDAY THE 13TH APRIL .

The Sitting commences at 10h30 The Deputy Speaker reads a Prayer Mr P.L. Kekana seconded by Mr M.T. Bopape moved the adoption of the minutes . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Deputy Speaker and Honourable Members , I regret very much to pass this message on to the Honourable House . The Chief Whip is not in the House this morning and he was not in the House yesterday . Yesterday I got a message from him which I now pass on to the Honourable House with deep regret . The Honourable Mr L.G. Mathole announces that his father , the chief, was shot dead at gun-point on the 11th this instance . The funeral arrangements are set for the 23rd this month at Driekop . It seems to me it is at Cry Down or Cray Dow farm , something like that , Mr Deputy Speaker . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY : Thank you , Mr Deputy Speaker . Through you , I will like to announce that there will be an official opening of the Chloe Factory near Mokerong on the 28th of this month. I will also like to inform the Members that they are invited and that there will be two buses which will leave from here at 9h00 . All the members will get food at Chloe . Thank you !

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : The Honourable House , we the ministers are for the invitation . And through you , Mr Chief Minister , we regret the incident of the Mathole's . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY : Mr Deputy Speaker , the second announcement I have now is that at our place we had one of the members of the Chief's kraal who has passed away . You must have heard this through the radio . I told the Chief Minister that the burial will be on Sunday .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Deputy Speaker and Honourable Members , regarding the tragedy in the Mathole family , I should just add that we have sent him a telegram of condolence on behalf of the Honourable House . To come to item 7 of Announcements , I am pleased to announce the presence of the two important visitors from overseas this morning in this chamber . They come from Holland . Otherwise the Netherlands . The one next to his Excellency the CommissionerGeneral is Mr De Boer . And the other next to Mr De Boer is Dominee Hattighn I am not sure whether they are bilingual . But I should believe that the people of Holland speak a language next to Afrikaans . Hence I will give the greetings of this House to you through the medium of Afrikaans . We are very pleased with the visitors here . I hope that this is the beginning of making friendship with the whole Nederlands and Lebowa and not partly . We will appreciate to have visitors from oversea to learn what is taking place in the homelands . There is a bad impression spread about our homeland . Thus I will like the honourable visitors to go about and make self research and not to listen to the rumours . I have also heard that our visitors will visit the Supersonic plant and any other place of their interest . They should also go to Lebowakgomo , after they have completed their rounds to see the developments that side . They should enjoy their privileges of being here . Mr Deputy Speaker , I don't want to take more time of this Honourable House except to emphasise that we welcome very sincerely the visitors from Holland . Mr Deputy Speaker , Sir!

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THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Honourable House , we thank the Chief Minister for introducing these very important visitors . As we are aware , they are men of high standing . We particularly want to thank the Chief Minister because he can make a link between us and other countries . Visitors like to visit well -behaved homes , clean homes that have a good history . Thanks , Mr Chief Minister . MR M.W. KGATLA : I thought it was a customary when thinking about the incident like that mentioned by the Chief Minister - the death of the Chief Whip's father and the Mokgomana from Phalaborwa as said by Kgosi Malatji , to give a due respect by standing for a few minutes . I was under the impression that perhaps immediately after the announcemnt by the Chief Minister we shall do so like we did in the past . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Shall the House arise ( The House stood up and observed the moment of silence ) . Thank you ! The Honourable Kgoši Malatji will be absent for a few days to make funeral arrangments at Phalaborwa . We proceed with our proceedings .

KGOŠI T.J. MOTHAPO : Mr Speaker , Sir , I wish to give a notice of a motion within a period of a week from today . Thank you . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER :

Honourable T.J. Mothapo , what is the motion about?

KGOŠI T.J. MOTHAPO : That all taxis not being registered in Lebowa should be taken out of the Lebowa road with the effect from the 30th April 1977 . Thank you , Mr Speaker , Sir . The seconder is Godfrey Sekhukhune . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER :

We then proceed to item 12 of our Order Paper .

KGOŠI T.J. MOTHAPO : Mr Speaker , Sir , I was still speaking yesterday when we closed . Am I allowed to continue sir? THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Order ! According to the record here you are ticked off; i.e. you have finished .

KGOŠI T.J. MOTHAPO : I do not know that whenever a person has spoken for 10 minutes he has finished . If that is the case then I am through . If it isn't , then allow me to continue . MR L.C. MOTHIBA : Mr Speaker , according to our Rules of Procedure a member is allowed 10 minutes to speak at one time . He may be given more time . MR Mr be in 30

M.W. KGATLA : Mr Speaker , I will like to commend on what the Honourable L.C. Mothiba has said . It is only in committee stage where a person can allowed to speak three times 10 minutes each period . But when we are not the committee stage just like at this moment he can speak for the whole minutes .

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Honourable House , that is not the argument . The argument here is that there is a list of members who have to speak here . Those who have already spoken on this Bill are ticked . This applies to the honourable T.J. Mothapo whom I shall now give another 10 minutes .

KGOŠI T.J. MOTHAPO : Thank you , Mr Speaker . Yesterday I did speak of an ostrich which has hatched . Through you , Mr Speaker , I will like to ask the Chief Minister how he interpretes this hatching of an ostrich. At Mapulaneng we have been told that this means that whenever a woman is labouring for a period of four years , she must just be taken to a hospital to undergo an operation .

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Another question concerns the amount which the Chief Minister maintains that he has brought for our parliament . He has further said that the amount is more than the one presented last year . But how can that amount be lower than that of the one and only department of Bantu Administration and Education , whereas we are the government . In your speech , Mr Speaker , you have said that there will be a transportation board . How many people will comprise that board? Which nationality are they? Under which department here in Lebowa does this board fall ? The one at the Central Government falls under the Department of Transport . Concerning this issue the Chief Minister has suggested that there will be an official entertainment fee of R53 600. I want to know what is all about this sum. How can we use such a lump of money when we have an inflation . I should think it will be better if we use that sum for our educational purpose or for the erection of roads and bridges . There is a sum of R2 221 000 for pensioners . I will like to know which pensioners you mean . Otherwise if you mean the members of this parliament , then it is too prematured . We can use this sum after some years . In the days of Pharao in Egypt , money was not misused whenever there was hunger . In our land here , it seems money will be used wrongly . We cannot think of entertainments when there are sufferers . Why should we not use this money to erect schools and to construct roads ? Entertainments should be left out for this year . Thank you , Mr Speaker . MR I.K. MALEBANA : I support those who say that we must negotiate with the Tsongas and Vendas to become one and the same government . It's long that we have been living with them . It is only after the central Government's decision that we should live separately . We must send our Cabinet to negotiate with the Vendas , Tsongas , Swazis , the Mapoch's and the Kekanas to become one government . We should not have a bad impression about our neighbourers . We should thus mandate our Cabinet to visit these other groups on terms of making union . One other thing which I will like to know is about the motion which was moved and accepted last year . This motion was about Karabi High School which was to be coverted into a training college . My community was willin to assist , where there are shortages to ... THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Order ! Honourable Speaker , I will like to advise you to bring that when we deal with that vote on Education . MR I.K. MALEBANA : Mr Speaker, I said this through you seeing that because such issues are discussed during the Chief Minister's speech ; but this was not done . So shall I continue . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Education .

Not with that motion .

You will wait until we come to

MR I.K. MALEBANA : Secondly, Mr Speaker , I will like to know from the Chief Minister how much tax docs the magistrate from each district pay every year? THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Order! With your permission Honourable Member , it does appear to me that the Honourable Mohale William Kgatla posed that question yesterday . He requested the Chief Minister to give details of the taxes of each and every constitutuency . It appears that you are repeating the question of Mr M.W. Kgatla .

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MR I.K. MALEBANA : I understand , Mr Speaker . I didn't think you will discourage this , as our people who have elected us , want the results of what has been discussed in this House . We are all paying the Lebowa Tax and the general tax . What I know is that everything suggested last year in this House was never done . When my people by constituency doesn't get any reply from this House they will not feel that I am representing them . Let me remind you of something , Mr Speaker. Last year we were promised by this House that our road will be completely tarred this year . Nothing has ever been done up to now so far . The only change is that we meet the traffic corps who stop us and check our cars because they know they must just get faults as our cars are travelling on a gravel road . Through you , Mr Speaker , I am pleading that there should be mercy unto the Lebowa children . At least whenever there is a promise , that should be achieved . The late Commissioner- General has been with us in our regional authority . He always commended that we were the first region to pay up our taxes . But nowadays things are in the opposite . The snag lies in these promises which are never fulfilled . Through you , Mr Speaker , I will like to edge the Chief Minister not to be one sided . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Order ! Order ! Honourable Member , I thank you . tell the respective Cabinet Ministers to reply you .

I

MR M.W. KGATLA : Point of order , Mr Speaker ! It is known to all of us that unless we are in a committee stage no member can speak twice on the same subject . Under these circumstance the Minister of Works will be out of order according to Rules of Procedure if he has to answer this question at this stage .

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Order! When I said that I was not calling upon him to speak . I thought he was trying to put the Honourable I.K. Malebana so that it is not necessary for him to put him to order . MR I.K. MALEBANA: I am making this request to the House on behalf of my people who have elected me , my chief and my whole community that it should make something for us .

KGOŠI M.E. CHILOANE : Mr Speaker , I am emphasizing the issue of boundaries It is a fact that we and the Tsongas are one nation . There has been some discussions between our Chief Minister and the Chief Minister of Gazankulu but up to today there has been no agreement that we should make a peaceful settlement . We who are residing at the boundaries are suffering . We have a confrontation with the Shangaans . There will be a blood flow in the near future because of this sharing of boundaries . My people believe that we have received briberies from the Shangaans as they are aware that there is no consideration of their plea in this House . They conclude that we are not worried here in the House to help them stopping their fight against the Shangaans . You have promised us that there will be a Commission of Inquiry into this matter , but you haven't done that . Whenever the land is bought , the Shangaans are the first people to occupy such a piece of land whereas the Lebowa people are excluded and even chased away . This Commission of yours is of no value to us because it is long that we have been waiting for it . We often console our people to be patient as it will soon start with its job . But now that our people no longer trust us , we must just openly say in fear of victimization , that it is our Cabinet which delays this commission . What you must bear in mind is that these Shangaans are our children . The Central Government has given them the power and status to rule themselves . The Central Government has given them Giyani and Mapulaneng . Now they want

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to take other parts of our land. It is my request that this crucial issue should be fairly considered by this House as our people are fighting against the Shangaans and the Whites ; the latter being delegated as messengers of the former to us . Thank you! MR M.T. BOPAPE : Mr Speaker , I am also concerned about this issue of boundaries . We feel badly affected by the reaction of the Central Government on the decision of Lebowa boundaries . It is long that we have been complaining about this matter in this House but no change was done . Do you see any cooperation from the Central Government . What I have in mind is that whenever we try to discuss with it concerning this matter the more we encourage them to become stiffer . What they are about to do is to bring a racial clash between us . I have just heard yesterday that our Cabinet should have talks with the Gazankulu concerning this matter . This won't materialize because you will be forcing them not to accept the promised land offered to them by the Central Government . MR I.M. MODJADJI : Point of order , Mr Speaker . Mr Bopape has misinterpreted me . I didn't say " Our Cabinet should have talks with the Gazankulu . " I said our Cabinet must talk to the Cabinet of Gazankulu Government so that Gazankulu and Lebowa must form one government .

KGOŠI M.E. MOGASHOA : A point of order , Mr Speaker ! Mr Bopape is not out of point of order . That our Cabinet should have talks with the Gazankulu is included in your speech though it does not appear exactly in these words ; but the meaning is the same . MR M.T. BOPAPE : I will try to be specific and precise so that I can be well understood . I was saying that it will be impossible to talk with Gazankul to return our land , their promised land which they had been offered by the Central Government . We can only form a new strategy as an alternative . We can just go out and make an inspection at our boundaries and thereafter meet the Central Government for talks rather than the Gazankulu . I will discuss the Commission of Inquiry in brief . It is true that this Commission has been appointed . To be precise , I will base my argument on what Mr Kwakwa has said yesterday . You are aware that the Central Government knows that there is already a Commission into this boundary inquest . Before our Commission can start with their findings we will be fighting in the west concerning boundaries that side . It will be advisable for us to claim the boundaries from all the cardinal points rather that solving one problem and leaving others unsolved . Otherwise we will be giving the Central Government further chances to donate our land to others . We should claim from the beginning , our whole land and not pieces of our land in intervals . My suggestion is that we should face the Central Government with our questions to answer them the way they deem it's necessary . We can in turn also answer them the way we feel it is correct to do so .

KGOŠI M.B. RIBA : Mr Speaker , I personally feel that we did not waiste money by travelling by buses to our various boundaries . Otherwise we would not know where our country ends . One may say, as I have already heard , that we are spending money unnecessarily . It will be fruitless to safe this money or use it for another project while our country is in a downfall ; some part of it being sold by the Central Government to another people . I should say this with much gratitude that though our sitting in parliament was suspended for those few days for us to look at our boundaries it was of

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value to us but this journey and others to be taken should come to an end . I therefore wish to support the members who have said that our Cabinet should meet the Gazankulu Government for negotiations . This will then be the end of our journeys . These two governments should meet and invite the Central Goverment for discussions .

I don't blame the Central Government . It is the parent of the Lebowa and Gazankulu governments . I think the Lebowa and Gazankulu should meet and discuss their problems and thereafter consult the parent the Central Government which is overruling . The latter will not be unjust to either one of the two governments because these two are her children . If Lebowa is in difficulties and sorrows , Gazankulu should sympathise with Lebowa since they are brothers . If the Central Government becomes aware that we , the Lebowans and the Gazankulus are in goo' terms , the Central Government must feel ashamed of bringing some conflicts between us . I do not believe in the ruling by force and sword . Thank you! THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Honourable Members , before I call upon Kgoši Mashegoane followed by Kgoši Brown Malatjie I have this to say: "Please Honourable Members try to be concise and to the point and avoid irrelevancy . " I still have 18 more honourable members who would like to speak . You will realise that the Speaker is not present today in this Chamber . The Speaker is involved in a car accident from town . Fortunately enough there is none who was hurt and he is busy making arrangements with the Insurance Company.

KGOŠI T. MASHEGOANE : Mr Speaker , the land doesn't increase but the birthrate is overwhelmingly increasing . This land is our heritage . When I analyse what our government has said to our people I find no truth in it . When I look at the steps and journeys we have undertaken to Naphuno and Bolobedu I see no any developments in them . If you tell the community a lie , you are creating some confusions . If we could just tell our people that there is a man - the Central Government , between us who is causing these clashes , there will be no problems . Why should we fight the Shangaans? They did not set the boundaries . These were made and passed by the Central Government . Mr Speaker , if the Central Government gives our land to other people lets ' just take this neighbouring towns and become ours . How can a mere town like Pietersburg share a boundary with the whole land like Lebowa? If one goes to the Sekhukhuneland , one will find that ten magošis are living on a piece of land equivalentt to a farm . All these shows that there is no confidence in the whole governing system . Coming to the vote given to the Department of Education , I should think that this sum is too low for maintaining the schools , the school equipments and salaries of teachers . How can our socalled Chief Minister , the Doctor of Education decide on such a low amount which cannot improve and develop our education . Perhaps he is fearing that there might be a qualified doctor in future who may be honoured more than himself . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Order! money is a repetition .

Honourable Member , I think this allocation of

KGOŠI T. MASHEGOANE : Mr Speaker , I must say what is from my feelings and observations and not from yours . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Order! We don't want repetitions .

Honourable Member , please respect the chair .

KGO I T. MASHEGOANE : What I am speaking is the truth . The estimates given to the education department are too little . He may be fearing that there will

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be graduates and learned doctors who may infringe on his career . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Order! I think you should avoid personal attacks . You may attack your government , your cabinet ; but it must not be personal .

KGOŠI T. MASHEGOANE : one other thing , Mr Speaker , which has cropped up in my mind is the incidence when the Chief Minister after realising the danger and confusion which arose in our homeland just decided to fly for oversea . How can he leave us in a tumult? A true leader cannot leave his people suffering from poliomyelitis and escape to America . KGOSI M.E. MOGASHOA : What the Honourable Member has just said is out of point of order in the sense that what we are busy discussing is on the table and not what he is saying . He is also irrelevant in that what he is speaking concerns tumult whereas the visit was totally opposed to that . ( Mr T.P. Makola's point of order was ruled off by the Deputy Speaker and Kgoši T. Mashegoane was allowed to continue ) .

KGOŠI T. MASHEGOANE : How many people were killed after he has left for oversea? If his journey was to bring food and harvest for his people , then how many of them did live and benefit from that? None . That is why I say I have no confidence in this Chief Minister . I don't trust him; he is a coward . He doesn't lead these Lebowa people in a correct manner . KGOŠI M.B. MALATJIE : This issue of the land should be referred to the Commissioner-General of the Central Government . You will remember that he is the representative of the Republic . Last time the 18 years youth were sent to our land from the Central Government as our Commissioners . These kids made a mass in that they have allotted our land to the Shangaans . The Central Government worked according to these youth's scheme . The Commissioner- General must clearly understand that we are not satisfied about this allocation of land . When the Central Government settled the Shangaans magoši on our land , they didn't consult us , the magoši of Lebowa . I still remember that myself and others in this House have rejected this Republic proposal at Leruleng . The Commissioner- General must just know that we have never agreed that the Shangaans magoši should occupy our land . We have never agreed that they should get any ruling in our land . There is not even a day when we have agreed that the Shangaans magosi should occupy a piece of land with our own land . Funny enough , when we contact the Central Government about the land we are told that the land dows not increase ; there is no land ; but they , the Central Government , have given our land to the Shangaans .. If someone wants to take your land , he can only do that by killing you . We shall be committing suicide by agreeing that there are Shangaans magoši in our land . In the history , the Whites maintain that when they arrived in South Africa we the Blacks were in the north of Limpopo . We should not just accept that . Even our writers cannot be allowed by us to write such kind of history . Honourable Members , you will still remember that we have rejected the invitation of the celebration of Matanzima - Transkei independence in the sense that we did not support that . Secondly , when we were still councillors , with Kgoši M.M. Matlala as our Speaker , Dr. Madiba had asked Dr. Eiselen about the owners of Phalaborwa . The latter told Dr. Madiba that it is for the Whites . So , how can we support the history as revealed in the case of Transkei and Phalaborwa?

Mr Speaker , we cannot just conclude that our Cabinet should meet the Gazankulu for the negotiations about the land . The Commissioner- General should know that we do not want any confrontation with the Shangaans . That there should be a Commission of three Lebowa and three Gazankulu delegates about this

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matter , it is the decision of M.C. Botha , not ours . We only want the commission that is comprised of Lebowa people only. What we can do is to contact our Commissioner-General to give us permission to talk with the Central Government concerning our land. The Central Government took our land and gave it to the Shangaans . We are less concerned about the latter but the former . We must just tell the Central Government that we want our land back. Thank you! KGOŠIGADI J. MAHLO: Mr Speaker , I would say that we send the CommissionerGeneral of the Central Government to call the commission so that we may meet it before this Parliament dismisses . We should find out from it whether we were robbed of the land or not . If we are not satisfied about the commission we must contact the Central Government itself . If we are also not satisfied about the Central Government we should take our land back by ourselves . I must also emphasize that our Cabinet should meet that of Gazankulu . We do not like this clash on boarders with the Shangaans . We know that the Shangaans and the Whites are foreigners in this land . We know quite well that they will be reluctant to give our land back . Even Ntsanwisi won't agree to meet them on the issue of boundaries . What we can only resort to is to fight for our land . We must forget about having talks with the Shangaans .

KGOŠI M..E . MOGASHOA : Mr Speaker , before I continue with the problem on boundaries , I will like to thank our Honourable Chief Minister on his budget speech . This should be done by his successors . (THE CURRENT WENT OFF ! TO SPEAK )

AND THEREAFTER THE CHIEF MINISTER WAS GIVEN A CHANCE

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Deputy Speaker and Honourable Members , in such circumstance where the current fails , we usually adjourn the proceedings . I therefore move an unopposed motion that the House adjourn . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER :

On this note the House adjourns until 14h15 .

THE HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 12.35 DUE TO THE FAILURE OF CURRENT AND RESUMED THE PROCEEDINGS AT 14h15 .

KGOŠI M.E. MOGASHOA :

Thank you , Mr Speaker .....

MR M.W. KGATLA : On a point of order , Mr Speaker . I am sure the man who must listen to what the honourable Kgoši Mogashoa is going to say is not in the House and that is the Chief Minister . The House can't go on because he is a man who has provoked us and he is a man who must listen to us and who must answer our questions . Even his secretary is not in . That is procedural Mr Speaker . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Thank you the Honourable Member . I was not aware that he is absent . Anyway lets continue because he has just arrived .

KGOSI M.E. MOGASHOA : I will like to say with much thanks to our Chief Minister who has succeeded in accepting the Kgosigadi Kekana to join us in this Lebowa homeland . Coming to the point of boundaries I should say that this is unfair to us that the Central Government should give the Shangaans our land while they are foreigners . From our journey which we have undertaken recently , we heard a spokesman from Gazankulu that a certain man , Mr Lennes Mashile has been arrested and deported to Robben Island because of his refusal to become a citizen of Gazankulu . When hearing that we were on the way to this place - Gazankulu , the Gazankulus destroyed Mashile's house . Some of his people told us that they had just come from the forest to escape the danger that might arise . It was painful to hear this .

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I must say that I am in support of those who are against the idea that our Cabinet should meet that of Gazankulu . It is impossible for a foreigner to give up what he has been promised . In contrast I should say that I am against those who have said that we have waisted money by taking a journey to look at our boundaries . It is true that our people who are living at the boundaries are suffering . I have also realised this among ourselves in Sekhukhuneland where there is not a single space left for some more foreigners . Through you , Mr Speaker , I would like to know from the Chief Minister the steps he has got from Engelebreght whom he has sent to us . Secondly I would like to know whether we the Sekhukhuneland people will be remembered when our land which has been given to the Whites is returned . MR S.M. LANGA : I don't have more to say . I don't think the Commission which will be send will succeed because its chairman is a member of the Central Government . We must just think for another device . Our common complain is that the Shangaan. have been given our land and thus they should evacuate it . There is nobody who can leave out of a place with a mere warning by a word . We must just chase them out by force . A knopkerrie must be used . We cannot sleep in the forest because of them . Kgošigadi Kekana has been forced to join us whereas she was not given a freedom of choice whether to join us or to join Mapoch . Mapoch doesn't want to join us . My suggestion is that these trust farms should be converted into Lebowa farms . It seems these Shangaans are given these trust farms to live on them . People strife to maintain the land of which they fought for . But I don't remember the Shangaans fighting for any land . A certain man has been shot dead at Naphuno by the Shangaans . The Lebowa kids who were schooling at schools for the Shangaans were expelled . Which mercy do they have onto us? Some are dying while others are chased away . These Shangaans should be chased away or else they must identify themselves with the Bapedi or the Ndebeles .

MR S.D. MODJADJI : Mr Speaker , the Chief Minister's speech was of importance because we had an idea of our land from it . He has mentioned that we have 129 Tribal Authorities and their communities . Among these there are Tribal Authorities which have not yet paid the Lebowa Loan . These authorities must pay up their debts so that loans can be granted to them in future . Previously when we visited the Southern part of Lebowa via Bolobedu and Naphuno to take inspections at our boundaries I was surprised to see a White man in that area . On becoming aware of our presence , this man ran away , and hide himself in the bush . Later , he drove his car back to us . We told him to phone to the Gazankulu immediately and tell them that we want our land back . I don't agree with those who say that we should have the Shangaans in our government with these reasons : The land is ours . We are not cowards to give them our land . They should apologise so that we can accommodate them. If I am not mistaken , the Shangaans obtained their homeland government in 1968. So it is not fair for us Black nation to fight each other . They should plead with us to come back , we shall accept them . In his speech , the Chief Minister mentioned that he has formed an Advisory Board . There is also a Commission of Inquiry into the matter of boundaries . This is an important step . Beside this , there is another powers granted to the Chief Minister to elect ministers . I should suggest that this policy be changed because there are some in this House who have been disqualified as ministers . There should be a committee to advise him.

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KGOŠI M. MALEKANA : Much has been said about the boundaries . I can't blame the tedious speeches delivered in this House concerning this topic because undertook to Mapulaneng this is a national issue . During the journey we I have acknowledged the importance of magoši . They have tried their uttermost to soothe their people that this problem will be solved . When we arrived there we heard the information that our people's houses were burnt down . People were to be calmed by their magoši that we were coming to solve their problems . I was very surprised to realise that there are people who have brought about this racial clash . How can we not be given our land back when the struggle is over? Why should our land be given to the foreigners? There are many homeland governments in the Republic , Why should the Central Government after issuing the Blacks with these various governments then , at the same time bring about confusion? Are they going to take these Shangaans among us , to Gazankulu . If they don't why did they approve the Gazankulu Government . I was very much surprised to hear that here is Lebowa and there is gazankulu . This is to cause anarchy . We can't progress in this way. We have been discussing this matter since yesterday without any conclusion . Some say we must go to Gazankulu to speak with the Cabinet concerned . Others insist we go to the Central Government . There is no aim in these decisions . The Whites have appointed a foreigner as a leader . This leader has no royal blood . This is a crucial issue . I do not know whether the Shangaans know that they are foreigners . They have no land . It is my request that the Central Government should make a thorough investigation into this matter .

KGOŠI B.K. MATLALA : I have stood up here on the point of correction : ( 1 ) Kgoši T.J. Mothapo has said that by undertaking some journeys to the boundarie we are spending money . Of course money should be used but not in excess . If you still remember Mothapo's Commission under this Honourable T.J. Mothapo you will realise that it has spent more money without bringing fruitful evidence to this House . It has spend a lot of time and money with no progress So how can such an honourable member be a leader of Lebowa . (2 ) The Honourable Mr Leshabane has said that the Chief Minister has fled away from the riots and disturbances by going to overseas . That is not the truth . You know exactly the purpose of that journey and you don't want to tell the people of Lebowa the truth . The truth is that the man who is said to have fled away Mr Leshabane has hidden him because he is his friend . Since 1973 when I became a member of this Parliament I have never heard these two honourable members telling the truth in this House . It seems they are against the Chief Minister . The Chief Minister's journey to overseas is of value to us in that he always brings some visitors who are trying to develop Lebowa industrially . Money is not waisted , but it is used in the desired manner .

I have heard that there is an Advisory Board for the Chief Minister . I would edge this Board to go over the Mashashane and make an investigation about Kgosigadi Mashashane and her people . I understand that Reverend Molomo and his people forced her to leave her home because she didn't want to join Mapoch . This Board should go to her place and take her back to her people at Mashashane so that the chieftainship should not be disrupted . In his speech , the Chief Minister has said that there are Tribal Authorities which have not yet paid up their loans with the Lebowa Government . I would suggest that the Chief Minister's department should remind these authorities by writing to them . Some of the Tribal Authorities are still new and young to such an extend that they may even forget or deny the loans . I appeal to our magoši to device some means to get money so that we can live comfortably . We are living in the world of competition and progress .

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There will be no progress without money . If we have only one channel to get money , that will be blocked and we shall suffer . I have heard about the Commission of Inquiry concerning the land issue . Our members here should not miss the contact with this Commission because we may loose our land . We should settle this problem with peace and not through blood flow . MR N.S. MASHIANE : Much has been said about the land . All these members have repeatedly spoken about the land and its boundaries . I would like to thank the Chief Minister on the occasion he has provided us that we should go around our land to see the boundaries . I should also thank the member who has said that the ' ostrich has hatched . ' This phrase means that whenever there is a wild fire approaching the ostrich's nest , she must go around and protect her young ones . This implies that we should stand up and fight for our land . If Lebowa and Gazankulu have achieved their governments from the same and one authority , it stands to reason that this authority has caused this ' wild' fire . Lebowa and Gazankulu have obtained their governments from the Central Government . Thus the Central Government is the cause of fire . It has done so by giving the Gazankulu , the Lebowa's land . Hence we , the Lebowa people should direct our complains to the Central Government . I have lived in Johannesburg for a long time where I have met the English , the Jews and the Germans living together in this area, but we are told to live separately . We are fortunate today because we have the Commissioner- General from the Central Government . He should take this message to the Government that we want to meet the Central Government . Pretoria has provided us with the government without weapons to defend ourselves . We have no security . At Cape Town there are cannons . Last year I made an appeal that they should give us guns to protect ourselves . MR S.L. DIGASHU : When we were at Mapulaneng at Kgosi Moletelo's kraal we were told that a certain man's house has been burnt down . This man was deported to Transkei . There is no logic in burning one man's house and depriving him of his property whereas he is no longer recognized as a citizen of a particular place . We were presented with a copy of Commission while we were still at the territorial authority . This Commission and other chains of commissions had a stream of discussions with Ntsanwisi but they have ended no where . There was no solution nor conclusion reached . How can we depend on these commissions which have no values to our solution of problems ? It will be far better if we can do away with these commissions . It will take some ten years to recover from war because we shall spent a lot of money and time . My suggestion is that the Shangaans must go to their own place . I would like to congratulate our Chief Minister on his success of bringing Kgošigadi Kekana to join us here at Lebowa . But I should , at the same time , discourage him of not accepting her with her whole community and her land . Why should we take her alone and leave out her people ? We should not waste our time by not accepting her because as soon as Bophuthatswana gets her independence , Kgošigadi Kekana may join her . She must join us and bring the Hammanskraal too . We accept her with her whole nation , her land and all her properties . Mr Speaker , that is our message which must be delivered to Pretoria . That our Cabinet should work in conjunction with the Gazankulu Cabinet , falls out . It will be far better if our government can meet Pretoria because there will be a direction .

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MR P.L. KEKANA : Mr Speaker , the Chief Minister and the Honourable Members , I just want to speak about three important issues . Firstly , I would like to thank the Chief Minister on his Policy Speech . The second issue concerns the burning fire . It is Pretoria that is blowing this five to increase its flames . Pretoria has caused this fire by issuing the Shangaans , the Swazis and the Batswanas with our land . All these nations have passports . They all have places to go but we don't. I should also blame this Cabinet of not paying much attention to our grievances . Molomo is helding some conferences at Mokopane to recruite the Ndebeles . On Thursday he had a meeting at that area with three Whites , in the hope that he will convince the Ndebeles to leave Lebowa . I think this Cabinet should be urged to do our homeworks in time . One other thing which encourages Molomo to recruite these people is that our Cabinet does not complete its plans at an early stage . The planning of townships , water facilities and camps for grazing were drafted since 1962 and 1968 if I am not mistaken . But there is still a complain rege ding the. e things . Every kgoši has been allowed to build a junior secondary school ; but it seems there is no subsidy provided for the erection of these schools . At Mokerong Mokopane nothing has been completed ; more especially the camps and water for the cattle . Such weaknesses encourage Molomo to take the upper hand in misdirecting the Ndebeles . It is my request that Lebowa should take an initiative step to complete these plannings . MR H.M. MODJADJI : Mr Speaker , I have a few questions to ask concerning the Chief Minister's speech .: 1. I will like to know whether our journey was arranged or not . But I would believe that it was not arranged because we were not informed about it . Otherwise I should suspect this was a political trick . If these were arranged we would be informed in time so that we could prepare ourselves .

2.

In his speech there is financial assistance to tribal authorities . What absurds me is that such assistance has never being given to us , the Bolobedu people . Why should we always be told that there is no money?

3.

It has also been said that there is a committee to investigate matters arising . When did this committee start and does it hold its meetings here at Seshego or somewhere else? Where is it at this moment? It has already arranged to visit four places and conclude its findings within six months . What will it be doing for another six months? I quote : "The Committee has already held a few meetings and is continuing with its work .. It has been given six months within which it will complete its implication . " The committee will investigate the question of boundaries in the district of Mapulaneng , Naphuno , Bolobedu and Phalaborwa and in any other area where the problem ..... " Well , I don't know which districts are involved in that line because four are mentioned . That is why I specify four districts .

This item of Commission is just a failure , because the Cabinet itself has failed . And the Cabinet has got its own frustrations in Lebowa here . I can't understand why we should spend much money on a minor issue which we can solve within a minute . That is why I say I don't believe that these tours were prearranged . When I am asked by my people about these tours whether they are meant to solve the problems of boundaries or something else , I just tell them that I don't know; that is the Chief Minister's affair . There is a community authority based on a private farm of one man . The farm has about 397 morgans . The honourable the Chief Minister has approved this community authority without consulting us or making some investigations . I have written several

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letters without a satisfactorily answer . The only answer I received was that the matter has been referred to Pretoria for investigation , Kgoši Mamaila and I have contacted the Chief Minister last year for clarification but we received no response . These shows some of the weaknesses of our Cabinet . I don't think it will be possible to settle the grievances about Gazankulu while we are not able to solve our own internal problems . You have been discussing with the Honourable M.C. Botha for four years about the problem of boundaries . What did he say? How did he conclude? Did he agree or not ' If the Cabinet has failed to finalise with M.C. Botha , then we should just elect the members through the Chief Minister to accompany the Commissioner- General to collect the message . To change the decision of the Central Government about the boundaries is not a problem . We can simply look at the relevant file and give instructions of what should be done . We have told the Commission what exactly is the case but I don't think the file was revised . It seems it is always left untouched . We discuss the problem of boundaries everyday in this House without progress . I just want to know what the Honourable M.C. Botha has said . Mr M.C. Botha might have either replied to our Cabinet here and it does not want to respond or else he might have tried to tell the Gazankulus that we must come to an agreement . If that being the case , then somebody is in trouble . MR M.J. PHASHA : I will like to comment on the Chief Minister's policy speech . It was excellent . Out of it there is direction . I should also like to speak about the vote on education . I want to know whether these allocation of funds are made by Pretoria , or by our Cabinet . If it is Pretoria , does our cabinet have any saying . I know that we are beggars which should not be choosers . It is the duty of this Cabinet to tell us that these votes are made by Pretoria if it so , so that we should not worry them with questions any longer . I am personally in trouble with a junior secondary school at my place which has no qualified teachers . It is only provided for unqualified teachers . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Order! Honourable Speaker , I think your question whether the estimates are done by the Cabinet or Pretoria is ver irrelevant . But the other portion of your trouble with a secondary school I think you should wait until we come to the vote of Education . MR M.J. PHASHA : Thank you , Mr Speaker . I am complaining of the education vote . We even took it to the caucus level . We were promised that things would be adjusted but nothing has happened . I think if we had any power or permission , we would increase this Education vote to at least R20- million . Education is the only thing that can make us realise ourselves . Even Pretoria would have less trouble with us if it could provide us with better education , because an educated man easily understands any point that you bring forth . But dealing with uneducated man you will have it hard because your level of understanding is far beyond his . That's why sometimes we do not understand Pretoria . For the past 300 years a White man has done a great deal of goodness to us . He led us to live and let live.But it seems this time the present generation may lead us to darkness and death . In this way, whenever we appeal for better education we get education which is not enough . Last year we told our Cabinet to improve things but nothing has been done so far . I am not satisfied at all .

The White man came 300 years ago and found us scattered . They brought us together to know one another . Now they demarcate us , to bring us back to the origin of 300 years . I am not so much educated but I know that education makes a man to understand . We are now led back to 300 years where we will shed blood . There were different opinions about the solution of this problem . There were those who said that our Cabinet should consult with the Cabinet of Gazankulu other were against that . I think this is necessary because consultations

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were made but were fruitless . Mr Speaker , I have a suggestion that we get the approval from the Central Government to amalgate with the Gazankulu government . We could get 20 delegates from Lebowa and 20 from Gazankulu and come together with our Commissioner- General and see whether we cannot iron this thing out . I say this because most of the people who are arguing that this thing should not be done , are far from the boundaries where bloodshed is going to take place . No one has said that this House should decide to form an army to go and challenge Gazankulu . But according to their speeches , they encourage bloodshed . I don't know who will they involve in that bloodshed except the people in the boundaries . If we have to be fair , we must come out with the truth if we decide as a House that we form an army to go and challenge Gazankulu militarily; we must say it out . We shouldn't play a hide and seek game in politics . Mr Speaker , this is an important issue . I say it is a waste of money; but that money fails to buy a land . I don't know Mr Speaker . My appeal is that something must be done in negotiation whoever he be , let negotiations take place because militarily we aren't armed . We know nothing about it . We don't want to be trained as such as Lebowa people . But in the meantime we don't know what Gazankulu is doing that side , maybe its training to face us . ( INTERJECTION ) (The speaker interrupted , and after his plea with the Deputy Speaker for maintaining order , he was allowed to continue ) .

MR M.J. PHASHA : Mr Speaker, protect me please more particularly against the honourable member from Bolobedu because he doesn't like to listen to others though he wants to be listened to . Moreover I am trying to sympathise with him because he is a man at the boundary . I am trying to solve the problem in order to protect him . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER :

Order , Honourable Member!

MR M.J. PHASHA : Thank you , Mr Speaker . stop I am already derailed ( Laughter ) .

Please come to the point .

Mr Speaker I think I better just

MR GODFREY M. SEKHUKHUNE : Mr Speaker , my most important point has already been taken by my colleagues . I shall only touch on the relationship of the Gazankulu people and the people of Lebowa . During the last war I fought a closer to shoulder with the Gazankulu people , facing the enemy . The black people were praised all over the world by leaders of today . We cannot blame the Gazankulu ' people . We have lived with them for many years . I think the Mapulana people are the witness in this regard . They never had any complaint in the past with the Gazankulu people . They respected each other . What happened that the Gazankulu people should be at loggerheads today? Who is pushing the Gazankulu people to offend the people of Lebowa? It is a plane fact . As long as we do not use our senses we shall go on pushing one another . I know that we lived happily with the Tswana people . The Swazis live with us happily and we still respect each other but something has come all of a sudden to corrupt the issue . Before 1910 we had the Kaapstad , Vrystad , Natal and the Transvallers people . These four provinces were independent from one another . They were pointing fingers at each other . They would not come together to assist one province when fighting the enemy . That's why the Whites couldn't defeat the black man of this territory . Immediately they realised that they were not united , then they came together . Honourable House , this is a fact . We must unite . We are not going to allow ourselves today so stupidly that we are going to divide ourselves and say : this is a Shangaan , this is a Swazi , this is a Motswana , this is a Mopedi , this is a Zulu and this is a MoXhosa. Are we going to allow that? Must I fight my own people , my own skin? That is rubbish .

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THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : is unparliamentary .

Order! Honourable member I think the word ' rubbish ' You may continue .

MR GODFREY M. SEKHUKHUNE : Mr Speaker, I withdraw that in your own saying but the word does not refer to anybody . If the language is not understood then I ask for pardon . Why should we allow ourselves to be divided? I don't think any Christian man can allow himself to be so fooled as we are . We love our own brothers and ourselves . Mr Speaker , through you , Sir , I believe that we the people of Lebowa shall go about propagating to other people to unite and be one nation . As far as I am concerned the language is not important but the man is important . God created the earth for a man to live on . God never sold this world to anybody else . We are all equal and nobody is owning another portion; thus we are to live happily as brothers You know very well Mr Speaker , why we quarrel with other neighbouring nations . In your own mind you've got the answer already and you can tell me . KGOSI P.S. PHASHA : I should think we are waisting our time by suggesting that we should conbine with the Gazankulu government because we will be acting against the National Party of the Central Government's policy of separate development . The National Party's standpoint is that we should live separately . They had colonies like Natal , Vrystaat , Transvaal , etc. and thereafter the united so that they could be able to fight the common enemy . Because Gazankulu has enjoyed these privileges of being separate , though we can try to negotiate with them , they will not agree . Gazankulu is not against the policy of divide and rule . If we Lebowa are trying to resist this , we will be detrimentally opposing the policy of the Nationalists . I support Kgošigadi Sekororo by saying that we should hand this matter over to the Commissioner- General and make some amendments wherever possible . Secondly , on page 3 of the honourable Prime Minister's budget speech : these increases show the ever broadening scope of this Government's interest and services to the people of Lebowa . I may mention that certain police functions will be taken over from the Central Government now . " I am not satisfied about this sentence because if we are to take the police functions from the Central Government we will only take " some " and not all according to this sentence . Which are those " some " ? Are they small police functions? If that be the case , then we shall be in danger because our police will not be able to arrest the people of all the colours . If this House agrees with that sentence then there is nothing we can do . Were there no commission's sent to investigate this issue of boundaries? Was there no letter which indicated that there should be a temporary permission on boundaries ? That letter has caused this confusion . There was Kgoši Mokoena during that time who stayed with the Shangaans , but now that he falls under Lebowa , why should he not be recognised together with his land? If we can try to solve these problems by shedding blood then we shall lose a lot while the Central Government on the other hand will lose nothing . Let us do things in the correct way. THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : The Honourable Kgoši Nkadimeng . Just before you speak I have an announcement : The Chief Minister will like to meet the Cabinet , the Speaker , the Deputy Speaker , the leader of the House and the two whips tomorrow morning at 9h00 . Continue honourable kgoši !

KGOŠI P. NKADIMENG : Thank you , Mr Speaker , it is a pity the time is now up . Mr Speaker , through you , I see the bulwark created by the architect of bantustan so that the solidarity of the blacks should be shunned , because they are aware of the ' swart gevaar . ' No need , as my honourable constituency man

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from Sekhukhune has assured that the so called hit and run politics is just a hit and run affair ; we must just call a spade a spade Mr Speaker , no matter Whether you may talk in different dialects but the problem is one . I still maintain that the architect of Bantustanism foresaw the problem of ' swart gevaar ' . Well , we may oppose one another but the point is we are given a government which we had no struggle for . This is not a type of government we should talk about . You know to our offsprings or generations , we are like a certain old lady , who turned into a salt ; i.e. Lot's wife . We must maintain that we are all people before God . Our Chief Minister I am aware - I don't know whether he is bribed or what , with so many qualities , I don't know who buys him . The way I see him , he is aged enough , he should say to the youth that he is aged . Well , it is high time I give up . He has important qualities . He shouldn't bother . They are talking of Gazankulu . They say they should be driven away, they must be chased , they must be assaulted ; that is not a thing . I will deviate a little bit , Mr Speaker . There is a thing you call "obtituaries . " I have been listening all along I heard nothing of the artrocities which happened in the Reef . The scholars were shot and we didn't stand up a few minutes for that . I request this House to stand up for a few minutes to honour the deceased scholars . Please Mr Speaker . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : at 10h00 .

THE

On that note this House should adjourn until tomorrow

HOUSE

ADJOURNS

AT

17h00

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1977 :

THURSDAY THE 14TH APRIL .

Mr A.S. Mahlangu seconded by Kgošigadi Dinkwanyane moves that the minutes be adopted . The Speaker announces a banquet to be held at 19h30 at Seshego Hotel . He also appeals to the members to dispose of the Chief Minister's Policy and Budget Speech by 15h00 , otherwise the debate will have to be closed .

THE SPEAKER : Makola .

According to my list here the next speaker is the hon . T.P.

MR M.F. MAMETJA: Bantu .

Mr Speaker , I just want to ask a question about Radio

THE SPEAKER : Under the present circumstances , I won't permit you. I have told you that if there's something you want to ask , consult me first so that I should duly be in a position to present your intended question formally to the hon . House . Now, you didn't do likewise . Apparently you were not present when I made this announcement . Consequently I shall allow you not more than three minutes to tackle that question . MR M.F. MAMETJA : Mr Speaker , the previous night I heard over the radio the report of our expedition to the boundaries and I was not happy about it . It could have been approximately three members of this hon . house who thought it was a mere waste of funds for us to visit that area , whereas - according to the opinion of the majority of members in this house - it was highly imperative to go there . Now , Radio Bantu based the report entirely on the opinion of these members instead of that of the house . We did not waste money . It should be borne in mind that the Shangaans are out to create a lot of problems there . Now when we are back with the knowledge of conditions there , we start to quarrel amongst ourselves on the grounds that we have wasted money . THE SPEAKER : Hon . member , if there is something wrong with Radio Bantu as far as that report is concerned , point out the mistake precisely or else do not tell us of the expedition to the boundaries . MR I.M. MODJADJI : Mr Speaker , apparently the Deputy Speaker did not inform you who was the last speaker yesterday . It was Kgosi Nkadimeng who spoke for 9 minutes only, while he ought to have been allotted thirty minutes as usual in case of the discussion of the Budget Speech . Thus it is certainly time for him to continue where he has left yesterday .

KGOŠI P. NKADIMENG : Mr Speaker and the hon . members , I'm very grateful , for I did not forget what I was dealing with yesterday . I was busy with the disease of Bantustanism . Gone are the days where you have to be white to be considered as a person . I think it is time that we move away from the mode of thinking to go into war with axes ; and we should also do away with pigmentation . It is quite clear that the policy of separate development has brought about a delay , particularly to the black races . Consequently if , for instance , you are given numerous names denoting that you are a black, do not act like a little apathetic boy who changes his name time and again without the explicit permission from his father .

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Why do you victimise your race? You'll recall that yesterday I mentioned something architective about this disease . I said it is contagious . Now, how are we to heal this type of disease . Through togetherness , of course , irrespective of colour or creed or race . You know white liberalism in S. Africa - a form of Nazism .......

THE SPEAKER : Order ! Hon . member , let me read a rule for you that concerns the issue we are discussing . It reads thus : The debate when resumed shall be confined to the financial and economic state of Lebowa and the general principles of the government policy , and administration as indicated in the Bill and estimates . I read this just to guide the hon . house to follow what we are dealing with . That is rule 131. You may continue , hon . member .

KGOŠI P. NKADIMENG : Thank you, Mr Speaker . But you should not force me to speak that way because to be handed a government is no better than to be learned and seek a job in the Seshego offices . The Government is not just a gift . I am trying to suggest that we should negotiate with the Shangaans . This Government is not a true reflection of a real government . When you refer to the Gazankulus you say we must cut off their throats .. What should we do? What have they done to us? It is known that this land is yours but the Whites have defeated you . The main issue is that all the homelands leaders should meet and discuss about this giving government which does not exist . When I am looking at this R69 million and a couple of hundred thousands I maintain that it will help the black children irrespective of any homeland to which they belong . What does Lebowa provide our people with, more especially this community? You know , all over the magisterial offices you will find that many people are looking for work. There is no firm in Lebowa from which our families can benefit . It is really lamentable because this is a deliberate framed bondage , framed kind of misery . There is no value when ..... THE SPEAKER : Order! Order! Abusive language is not allowed in this House . You are speaking the way you like and the rule does not allow you .

KGOŠI P. NKADIMENG : I withdraw , Mr Speaker . You know , through you , Mr Speaker , I do not support the Bantustan . I am assured of that because it is a naked Lovernment . It is like a toothless bulldog which wags its tail when it sees a foreigner trying to snatch its food . It cannot do anything . There is no sense in deceiving one another . To deceive the people whom we are ruling is not fair . To rule is to rule in a fair manner . Can you rule when you have erected a town in the forest of Lebowakgomo? It is shameful . Is there anything wrong if the Legislative Assembly members sleep at the Holiday Inn when they have visited Mapulaneng? Mr Speaker , we are here for a refresher course in this type of government ..... THE SPEAKER : Order! I will remind the honourable member to be relevant . In accordance with the provisions of rule 131 the honourable member may go on .

KGOŠI P. NKADIMENG : When you read through this speech you will realise that it is being said that bulls and some other things to help us are being purchased .. Now where does money come from? Obviously you have percuniary interest in the matters concerning the government , and you do not form part of it . Because you do things for your own good , surely you must be having ....... a lot of money like , for instance , Ilanga , in Swaziland ... THE SPEAKER : You can't impute your Governme not permit you . KGOŠI P. NKADIMENG :

in that manner .

It is not my Government , Mr Speaker .

The law does

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THE SPEAKER : Continue honourable Kgoši . I am not stopping you to speak but I will always call you to order when you are irrelevant . KGOŠI P. NKADIMENG : It seems our Chief Minister has got his own policy . Think of the money you give them while you don't have money from your own mine . I don't think the honourable Ezekiel , your brother , could support this Bantustan issue ..... THE SPEAKER :

Order !

honourable member , allegations

personal charges !

KGOŠI P. NKADIMENG : I will conducc myself, Mr Speaker . If I am not wrong , the discussion is about money to help our people and to buy some bulls . If they provide us with bulls that can better our cattle , then where are cattle posts ? As we do not have camps these cattle will cause soil erosion . You are speaking about boundaries . About which boundaries are you referring specifically? You are in a small portion of land , the so called Homeland . Which boundaries are you trying to establish? You are molesting one another . Can't you see that the architects are the source of this? You are speaking about bogoši whereas some of you do not even know it . When looking here I am compelled to leave out some items because they are already discussed by my colleagues . It is a disgrace to acknowledge what is happening at Sekhukhune . Scmeone is appointed as an acting kgoši but it is not fully elucidated who is the actual kgoši to be . For example , K.K. Sekhukhune , it is not known for whom he is acting but the sources say that he has achieved this crown from Rhine Sekhukhune . I know these two from youth . This matter should have been discussed by the magoši of Sekhukhune and not by this house . This is exactly what the Bantustans like to do . You nominate the dikgoši while they are naturally born dikgoši . When the mother of a kgoši is married cattle are issued . You maintain that the magoši are proposed by the bakgomana . Now where do these bakgomana come from? Do you mean the sons of ' indoenas ' or the young men of this village? You will remember that when the whites met us , they found us with this bogoši . If you are a mokgomana and you are favoured in the bantustan sense you may be elected as a kgoši . But through our custom , it is impossible regardless of whether you put on a pair of goggles - (Laughter ) According to our custom the bogoši has no intersection with the Whites . It has no common interest with the bakgomana . Bakgomana have no rights to bogoši . They are just born . The bogoši is for the community . The Secretary of the Chief Minister should be aware that the bogoši is ours . Through you , Mr Speaker , I would like to know from the Chief Minister whether my two brothers can become magoši . Secondly , do they have any right or powers to appoint dikgoši ? This Bantustan fever is slavery . If ever this bakgomana have brought us this fever , then lets just close this house and go away . THE SPEAKER :

Order !

There are no slaves in this house .

Go ahead .

KGOŠI P. NKADIMENG : I withdraw that word , Mr Speaker . This issue of bakgomana shouldn't be discussed in this house . But is this kgoši who has going to rule for sometime ? This Rhine was born in 1946 . been dethroned He was appointed at the magistrate office as Sekhukhune III while he was still a baby . Now , why do they not inform the other magoši of Sekhukhuneland when they dethrone him . For whom in the vacuum is he holding this bogoši and why? The owners of this bogoši should know that they are embarrassing us . He will not rule any person . These people who go about secretly are the people who do not care about their bogoši . They must know that . If you don't care about your things there is nobody who can respect you . If you come with the Pretoria aim of ruling us you won't do that . You will never come all right . You are deceiving yourselves . You must just think how you can deal with this matter .

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The land which we have bought at Sekhukhuneland and which you have stolen through fraud must be retained . The dikgoši of Sekhukhuneland must have all the lands back from now on. Sekhukhune has never conquered anybody . We have just honoured him as our kgoši . It is a shame . This issue has come by a mistake . It is now bringing the war of axe . The whites are looking at us and say: "Look at that kaffirs , they are fighting . " That is not life . That is the way of Bantustan . We can speak in many ways but it is a waste of time as long we are here . Just imagine you people , a map has been drawn right from the horn of Africa up to this point of Bantustans . Now, how shall we live . As long as we feel at home within these walls of Sodoma and Gomora , we are in danger . You were not present yesterday , Mr Speaker. I made a plea through the Deputy Speaker , that we should mourn for the kids who were gunned down at Soweto because they are part of the Lebowa community . Are their parents not paying Lebowa tax?

THE SPEAKER :

Order!

honourable member , please be relevant .

KGOŠI P. NKADIMENG : Mr Speaker , if this house is not here to repr cent our people , then we are here to waste money and kill our people . THE SPEAKER :

Order !

KGOŠI P. NKADIMENG : the Shangaans? THE SPEAKER :

Order!

please be relevant . We are having a problem .

The Mapulana should fight

Your time is over .

KGOŠI P. NKADIMENG : Let me end up by saying that if you do not mourn for the kids who were killed by the police then you are here for money and not work for our Lebowa community . THE SPEAKER :

Honourable Mr Mohlala please !

KGOSI M.G. MOHLALA : Mr Speaker , we have heard everything . I am now going to speak about our journey to Mapulaneng . We have heard about the burning down of Matsikitsane's house who was ultimately deported to Transkei because of the Shangaans . We are fighting all this time to get him back though we do not know how he was deported . Unfortunately the Minister of Interior was still a secretary for the Regional Authority when this man was arrested . Now the Minister of Interior has told us that only seven days past since he became the secretary , the Commissioner suggested that this man should be arrested . The Minister has also revealed that the letter was signed by Mr Malomane and Reverend Mashile while he refused though he was the regional secretary . Through you , Mr Speaker , I would suggest that the Chief Minister accompanied by the Minister of Justice should go to Mapulaneng and fetch that letter so that we should see whether it is true that he didn't sign it . The Molatelo Community nearly killed him as they maintained that he knew about this boundary issue . Kgosi Mogashoa came to his rescue . It is unfortunate that the Chief Minister had already gone to Mokoenas to soothe and calm the community . If someone has done injustice to another , have we got no power to arrest that person?

THE SPEAKER : Order! Honourable member , please speak about something which is discussed in this house . Those are other stories . Continue with that which is on the order paper .

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KGOSI M.G. MOHLALA : In actual fact , Mr Speaker , the magistrate of that area was accompanied by his people to burn down Matsikitsane's home . And again , we went to the Eisenton farm to investigate why this farm was taken over by the Shangaans . Unfortunately we found that a person was killed and we didn't investigate this case . Now , what should be done with these murderers? On Good Friday we were attacked and told that we didn't investigate this murder case . Mr Speaker , is there not any other means to threaten these people? Firstly I would like the letter of agreement to be produced so that we can see whether we are fighting for something real . Perhaps we are fighting for the boundaries whereas the lands are being signed by him . Or perhaps we are betraying our people because of him . We must know the truth out of that letter . We are even trekking because of these tricky letters . MR T.P. MAKOLA: Mr Speaker , since yesterday many things which I wanted to say have already been said by my colleagues . I won't repeat them. But you should allow me to say something concerning the boundaries . This house shall agree with me that Lebowa boundaries extend from Limpopo River to Vaal River . The House shall also agree with me that Bophuthatswana is opting for independence outside and inside Lebowa . How did that come that Bophuthatswana should be allowed independence inside our country? Concerning this problem we know that there is someone on whom we should rely ; that is the Chief Minister who must solve this problem . What steps did he take when hearing about this independence? I have been looking at the Chief Minister's deeds since last year with red eyes . I have been looking seriously at his reaction to what the Bophuthatswana has done . Did he go to Pretoria and ask what is exactly being done? If so , what did Pretoria say? Perhaps he has tried his best to ask them though this house and I know nothing about that . If Pretoria has refused ; does he not know what to do? What hurts me is that he is saying nothing in his policy speech . He has ignored this fact . I would like to know whether he went to Pretoria and whether Pretoria refused to accept that . If that beeing the case we shall have to give him the direction of conducting himself . I am appealing to him that he should interrupt me by giving this house a light in what he has done -M because this problem is a national issue . I want to bring forth my facts whilst I am still on the floor . I don't want to repeat the problem about the boundaries in the east as this has been said . I am for the fact that we should become one unit .

I am now on the industrial investment issue . Kgosi Mashegoane has told me this in detail but I will confine myself to investment . Are you telling us the truth that so and so are coming with a full bag of money to establish Lebowa? Are you not trying to win our favour as the elections are nearby? What I am aware of concerning foreign investment is that it is difficult to come over to this country . South Africa is having difficulties in getting these foreign investments . It is because of her policies which are not acceptable to some countries which have capital . One other thing that makes her difficult to obtain foreign investments is that she has created some Bantustans . So how can we manage , the honourable Chief Minister , to get foreign investments whereas South Africa has created Lebowa and the former gets problems to get these investments for herself? I think the hon . Chief Minister , you did not know us all along . You were taking us very low . Our imaginations are not just low as you think . We can't easily be deceived . I am repeating ; South Africa is unable to get foreign investments because it has formed the Lebowa homeland . Are you telling me that these people who are against this idea of homelands can come and invest in Lebowa? Let me tell you one thing the hon . Chief Minister ; the people oversea are too wise . They are waiting for you to go over that side to confront you with this homeland policy . There is no country which recognise South Africa in as far as investments are concerned . You know that you are wasting your time

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and you know that you are not speaking the truth that there are bags of money coming .

What did the German people say about their fright when they brought their money here recently? Did they tell you that though they have that interest of investing their money here they have a fear of economic boycott? Hon . Chief Minister are you not ashamed of speaking these things in this hon . house ? Don't you think you are not speaking to the idiots or kids? You must think fully of what is happening outside . I will leave this problem a little and discuss the one on Police force . I am amazed to hear that a body of policy will be joining our police force here in Lebowa . As we are not ruling ourselves but we are ruled by Pretoria , how did this idea of protecting ourselves come about? As a student of History I have never heard of any country that when ruled by another , it should look forward to its military or police defence . Through you , Mr Speaker , I would like to tell the hon . Chief Minister , that such a thing has never happened . He is bringing us a new thing . Lebowa has no self- government but is ruled by Pretoria . Therefore the policy of Lebowa should be under Pretoria . It is surprising and even uncommon according to a historical constitution for a country which is not fully self- dependent to have police and military force of its own , external department of its own , post and communications from outside whereas it is governed by another country . What do we deduce from this? It is not unusual for a person to withdraw after realising his mistake . MR M.F. MAMETJA : I thank you , Mr Speaker , for this opportunity . I am more interested in the issue of boundaries as I am staying next to them . Before I do that I wish to express my gratitude to the speech by the Chief Minister . Secondly , I wish to say something before I discuss the issue of the boundaries at Bolobedu , Naphuno , Mapulaneng and Phalaborwa . Any human being is liable to mistakes and should be advised . The Gazankulu Government , like any other homeland , has been provided with the seconded officials by the Central Government . The people of Lebowa who stay next to the boundaries have never been in loggerheads with the people in the neighbourhood who are on the other side of the boundary . Now, those homelands which have the seconded officials who always do things the wrong way , why do they not reprimand them? Many wrong things are not done by the Shangaans intentionally but by the Whites . Mr Mametja , the indoena , was not gunned down by the Shangaans but by their White officials . The people were not arrested by the Shangaans but by the Whites . We have also the white seconded officials here in Lebowa . We must empower them like those who are serving under the Shangaans . When we arrived at Mapulaneng we found that the white magistrate there has burnt somebody's house . In this very house we have some whites who have heard about what their colleagues are doing to the Shaangaans . What are their feelings ? I don't believe that these kind of white people are going to work with us here in Lebowa . I am saying this because we have taken the same complaint about fifty times to the Chief MInister's office , but without success . I am happy because we were with them and the Commissioner- General when we visited the boundaries . They have seen exactly what is happening at the boundaries . They have heard about the situation at Kgoši Moletelo's kraal and about the burning of a house . They have also heard about the

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complaint of Mokoena's people . Now , that we have returned , I would like to know their standpoint . What does the honourable Mr M.C. Botha say? If there are no steps taken , then we shall see how to come out . The boundaries have given us a headache . The Shangaans are hard nuts to crack . As long as they are threatened by the Whites we are in danger . They have nothing but because they are helped by the White man they have something . It is wrong that they should deprive us of our land so that we should remain nowhere . You know that as long as the Blacks are still living in this country there won't be peace because the Whites know that they have taken this land in a cunning manner . They know that if they can give this land to the Shangaans they won't have any power over it because they would have been given a land which does not belong to them . The owner of a thing has no luck , but the beggar has . This situation is like when a stranded person ask to put up at your house for a night but the following day he claims your house to be his . The Whites and the Shangaans do not differ in this respect . If ever God exists I don't know who will say God is in heaven . It doesn't help to go to church with a weapon inside your pocket and read the Bible . What kind of a Christian will such a person be? In fact the Shangaans are not our enemies . Our enemies are the Whites . Through you , Mr Speaker , I would like to appeal to the Chief Minister to ask these people about their decision after we have returned from the boundaries . I still remember the burning down of Matsikitsane's house . Are these people who have burnt it down not guilty? Mr Speaker , we the Lebowa people are of bad luck . Here are men who come and chase us away from our homes . They are taking our fore- fathers ' land away . I don't believe in a White man . They are causing a fight between the Shangaans and ourselves . We didn't have clashes with the Shangaans before . We shall be deceiving ourselves by going to talk with the Gazankulu Government because the Whites have given them all the priorities . Ours is to leave everything and wait for what will happen here in Lebowa . We who are at the boundaries must see for ourselves . If not so our Commissioner- General must investigate this matter soon and tell us the results thereof . Thank you , Mr Speaker .

THE SPEAKER : Honourable members , now that you have discussed this boundaries issue let us continue with other items because you'll be repeating yourselves . Honourable Mr A. Mahlangu . MR A.S. MAHLANGU: Mr Speaker , as I have heard that you have met the Gazankulus at Makgobaskloof how did you agree with one another? Is Gazankulu content with those boundaries or not? When shall we be told about the decision of the Gazankulu and that of Pretoria? Where are the minutes for that decision so that we can read them as we want to know? Mr Speaker , we are now discussing the boundary issue . We have heard that there will be a Commission of Inquiry in the east . Is this Commission only concerned with the boundaries at Gazankulu , Sekgosese and Mapulaneng or about all the boundaries around Lebowa? I think this Commission is only concerned with the east and not about the other parts of the country . It is said that the people have prepared themselves for the coming of this Commission . So , when shall we be informed about this coming Commission? Are those nine farms only our boundary? At Nebo , we don't have any boundary , more especially we the Mahlangus . We only have a boundary with the Whites at Stofberg next to Middleburg and Belfast next to Lydenburg . I am surprised to note that we are fighting with a person who does not share a boundary with us . We are fighting with Mapoch over those nine farms though he does not share any boundary with us . We also need that Commission so that we can show it all our boundaries . I have realised that we shall end up nowhere though we have boundaries with the Whites . And I thought , perhaps by

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their moving away from time to time we shall have enough land . What had happened to the Ndebeles when Nyabela and Mampuru were arrested in 1882 at Rosenkal ? The kgoši was by then Jafta Mahlangu and till today he is still a kgoši . He has brought the Ndebele nation together . A certain person fled to Pretoria , during the war in 1883 and when he now comes back with hands in pockets he claims to be the paramount chief . That cannot happen . We have fought many wars in his absence and many victims of those wars are buried but today they want to appoint him as our kgoši . We too are waiting for Kgoši Jafta Mahlangu's land because whenever a kgoši is dead the other one will be born.

We have been not fighting with Mapoch all along . He has been living on the one side of Olifants River and Kgoši Jafta on the other side . Both were living in peace . If they want to give Mapoch self- government they should give him his own portion of the land and not also that of others - not that of Kgoši Jafta Mahlangu. We are going up and down trying to solve this problems . During Easter Holiday we met the Ndebeles from Pretoria and Johannesburg . People are busy occupying those nine farms . As it is assumed these nine farms fall under Lebowa . Thus they automatically fall under Kgoši Jafta Mahlangu . We shall see who will ask about these people who have occupied these farms . It can either be a white man or a black man ; we are waiting for him . We are satisfied that these farms are ours . We are not fighting with Mapoch nor the Whites . We were told by the Chief Minister and the honourable , the late Mr Bezuidenhout that those farms are ours and therefore they shall not give them to Mapoch . We shall now trek to our farms . We have been given them . I am not dreaming because I have the minutes in details . I have these minutes about our farms being given to Kgoši Mahlangu . We are feeling very unhappy about the situation at Nebo where there are about fifteen magoši situated on a small piece of land like pigs in a sty . You can look at farms like Eensaam and Roodepoort as well as farm at Tubatse . They have just suggested Tubatse River as the boundary . Have you ever seen a river being a boundary? You can look at the farms along the way to Lydenburg . There are no White people there . Instead our people are overpopulated there . These farms are cut so that we should not occupy the other side of Tubatse . Even those nine farms do not extend over Tubatse though their beacons are at the other side of this river . They have just decided that you ' baboons ' should live in the mountains and not on the other side of Steelpoort . The ' baboons ' should live at the rural districts .

Out of the nine farms only three are flourishing . Others are mountaneous and are only suitable for cattle and sheep grazing . There are about 900 people evacuating from Georgedagte Mathulastan into these farms . They have been settled in the cattle camps since then . Commissioner Verkuil settled them there and promised them to wait until the farms were ready for occupation . But they are now given to Mapoch . They have provided Mapoch's cattle with grazing camps whereas people are suffering . If you want to land into trouble just take the boundaries next to Mapoch . We shall not even come here to ask . You'll just hear that he is finished . They have given those farms to a rascal . We will solve this problem ourselves . This is just a minor case . It is long that our people have been waiting for those farms . You may take us to jail . I don't think we shall be the only people to go to jail - that is all the people who maintain that those farms belong to Mahlangu . What shall I wait for if they say these are your farms? The main question is not just that we should only settle the people there . I have also heard that ..... I just want to touch this issue of the Honourable Esther Kekana .....

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THE SPEAKER :

Order!

Your time is over .

KGOŠIGADI V.T. DINKWANYANE : Thank you, Mr Speaker . Firstly I would like to express my gratitude to the policy speech of the Chief Minister . I will now go over to the issue of boundaries . Mr Speaker , I agree with those who say that this matter should be left under our Commissioner- General to take it to Pretoria for consideration . Our journey to the boundaries was to help our people of Lebowa in general . We found our people suffering at the boundaries . That is why I still maintain that our CommissionerGeneral should contact Pretoria . Thank you . KGOŠI K.P. PHASHA : As we have been discussing this boundary issue since yesterday , I see no progress because this house maintains that the problem lies with the Central Government . It is the intention of the Central Government that we should fight each other , to eliminate ourselves SO that they can do whatever they like with us . The same situation is seen at Schoonoord where three or four magoši are settled on a single farm. The intention of this house should be to complain to the Central Government because it has delayed the Commission for six months so that this Parliament should be closed and new people for the Commission be elected . These new faces with fresh brains are going to fail to handle this issue . How would it be if we could withdraw our membership from the commission so that it should not make some investigations? I am speaking this because we cannot appoint our people as commissioned whereas we maintain this problem . What are they going to do when we do not have any hope in commission? I would suggest that we should ask for boundaries between us and Gazankulu to be temporary while we still negotiate with Pretoria . We should know the results of this issue before this Parliament can be closed The main fact is that we should contact the Central Government through our Commissioner- General . I would like to inquire from the Chief Minister whether it will be possible - after getting independence - to have a federal government which will be under the governor . That is , a federal government of Lebowa under the Central Government . Most of you may think I am wrong but you fear autonomy because this issue of independence has oppression in itself . Thank you , Mr Speaker ! MR E.M. MALOMA: Mr Speaker , I differ with this House when it maintains that the issue of boundaries is absolutely correct . Mr Speaker , truly speaking , we should have gone through the whole of this land . We have the same problem of boundaries at Sekhukhune land . Kgošigadi Dinkwanyane's farms and other farms around Lebowa are under the same problem and as such a visit to them should have been undertaken .

Through you , Mr Speaker , I would like to know from the Chief Minister what measures did he take to elect his Advisory Board . I am asking this because there are rumours outside that the Chief Minister nominates only his next of kin . those who are his relatives are elected as members . I can read this to you if you allow me . Perhaps it is because they are Senior Chiefs and not the Junior Chiefs . People ask why are these three nominted members his relatives . How will they advise him because they will only be discussing family problems . I have regarded this as a failure because all magoši are equal . They are neither the seniors nor the juniors . It is just like that committee for inspecting the boundaries where only the people of high standings were elected . It is also discouraging because these people have no knowledge of the country . It would be better if the other magoši who know the country could be included in this board . The magosi who are in the board apparently have been elected because of friendship . Therefore , this problem of the boundaries will never be solved . The people whom I say are

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related are Kgoši Sekhukhune and his cousins , Kgoši P.A. Thulare , Kgoši E.S. Maja and Kgošigadi J. Mahlo . This problem can only be solved if people are elected because of their knowledge and because of the family relationship . In his Policy Speech the Chief Minister mentioned that there will be a poultry farming for the government ; but this poultry farming will compete against the ordinary people's poultries . If the government opens a business , who can compete with it? What I foresee is that there will be time when the Lebowa people can no longer open businesses . There is poultry farming at Solomondale . There is another one at Turfloop where the owner has borrowed about R42 000 from the Lebowa Development Corporation . Lebowa has establishe that with more than R86 000 so that she can be able to compete . This man will be bankrupt . Is that the policy of business making that the government should create business for the sake of people to bring up their kids? Out of 129 tribal authorities only 99 have got an assistance from the Chief Minister and 30 of them did not get anything out of him . What happened to them? Who will assist them, Mr Speaker . Some of them when they have come to negotiate with the Chief Minister do not get that chance like myself . Is it because my people are perhaps junior chiefs? We complain many times to the Chief Minister because he does not visit our magoši regularly . Instead he visits friends only . When one of the other magoši has passed away he does not go and sympathise with the bereaved . Is that fair? He should have included in his Policy Speech, the elected magoši , the appointed ones and those who have passed away. He only mentioned the magoši who have been dethroned . So , what has he done for them? I may have the information of the magoši of Sekhukhuneland who , after having problems with their people were chased away and received no assistance from him and thus even suffering today . So , his Policy Speech has no meaning . It is one sided because only the good is mentioned while the evil is excluded . Mr Speaker , the Lebowa people are not satisfied about this Government because they maintain that one cannot get a higher post in this Government if one is not related to the Chief Minister or to one of the ministers who are in charge of the promotions . That's all . Thank you! MR S.H. NKADIMENG : In the Chief Minister's Policy speech mention was made that the usual bus rank of Seshego in town will be removed to another big and open space . It was said that the future rank will be modernized . Are they going to remove the rank outside of the town , away from the Whites to encourage Group Areas Act ? I have read in the paper that the Blacks are making the town untidy , are they consequently going to establish a rank far from the White area? I am waiting for an answer .

In his Policy speech it seems the Chief Minister has elected his own board which will advise him on the issue of boundaries of the magoši around Lebowa . Like the honourable Mr Maloma , I am also not satisfied about this board . You will remember , Mr Speaker , that when you were the Chief Minister , the people of kgoši Nkadimeng were not satisfied about the settlement of Kgosi P. Thulare . We have informed the Chief Minister that the land which Kgoši Thulare occupied then belonged to Kgosi Nkadimeng . He then said that this problem was under the discussion of the Cabinet . I just want to know whether the Cabinet is still solving this problem. Can Kgosi Thulare be one of the board members who are in charge of the boundary issue whereas he is involved in this question of boundaries ? Can this be a proper free democracy according to the Western system of

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Ministers ' tradition the accused should simultaneously act as a witness? Such a person is obviously going to defend himself . What is happening in the Chief Minister's department, for the bakgomana to appoint magoŝi does not satisfy us . One other thing is that the people of my constituency complain about the reference book and influx control . You never comment on these things honourable Chief Minister . As you always go to Pretoria , do you tell the hon . the Prime Minister of the Republic about these? Suppose you have told him; what did he say? Are you not aware that these reference books are going to cause trouble in this country? Are we all satisfied in this house , honourable Chief Minister , about the people who find it difficult to acquire jobs and who are chased away from the cities? If we are not satisfied , why do we not tell Pretoria about this? As you have told us yesterday that you have discussed this issue and you have elected a committee to reduce the effects of the passes , I would like to know how far this committee has gone through the matter . Is such a committee existing or not? If that committee is not yet formed , you should know hon . Chief Minister that the Lebowa people have already mandated me to tell you that you should do something to inform Pretoria to do away with these passes . It's long that we have been suffering under this pass book . If the aim of influx control is to debar the people from going to the cities , then this should be applicable to the Whites also . The people of Lebowa are not satisfied since this influx control is practised along to the colour lines . They feel it should be repealed . What is more pathetic is that the towns around Lebowa are also chasing people away because of the pass books . The Lebowa people feel that this house should not exist if it does not solve their problems because apparently the people in this house only enjoy earning money . Another thing which the people of Lebowa said I must tell you is that of industrial organisation . On this issue the black people who provide their labour force towards production in the industries are not protected by the Industrial Act .

THE SPEAKER : til 14h15 .

Excuse me , the business of this House shall now be suspended

LUNCH

THE SPEAKER :

Honourable house , we shall now continue with our discussions .

MR S.H. NKADIMENG : Mr Speaker , I was still on the issue of black labour as a key in South Africa . Through you , Mr Speaker , I would like to know from the Chief Minister whether the Prime Minister of the Republic Mr Vorster , speaks the truth that he does not want to recognise black trade unions . If I were the Chief Minister I would say that this is injustice . But then what steps did he take ? Through you , Mr Speaker , I would like to tell the Chief Minister to go and inform the Prime Minister that we do not want the Bantu Labour Amendment Act . We want to be protected like the Whites of South Africa by the Industrial Conciliation Act of 1956 , through which the Government shall recognise registration of the trade union . I am saying this outside Lebowa . place where they their salaries .

because I feel pity for my fellow people who work in or These people are absolutely not protected . There is no can lodge their complaint of not obtaining increment of They are fired from work without protection

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That is why I ask our Chief Minister whether he is satisfied about this . In his policy speech the Chief Minister asks the House to support him that the trust farms should fall under Lebowa . If I was supporting him I would say that not only the trust farms should fall under Lebowa but the people who are able to buy them should be allowed to do so . It could be the tribal authorities or ordinary people so that they can enjoy their property . Mr Speaker , this house has already passed the law on education . It is a surprise to me to note that our students ' certificates are still signed by the Department of Education in Pretoria . I want to know the reason thereof . Are we doing our own education or still that of Bantu Education? Since you have suggested that the medium of instruction in schools should be English , so why does this Government then writes in Afrikaans when addressing their letters to the magistrates? Then , what will be the use of this English? It is the intention of the Chief Minister that he does not want to see the Lebowa women with buckets of water on their heads . But it is said that there is no money to bore water . I am therefore against the inclusion of the intertainments in the budget speech . This money should be used for the boring of water and the erection of dams . Is it fair that these officials should travel alone by car whereas others are overloaded in one car though the journey is the same? It is not the waste of the money of Lebowa . Like the officials of Transkei who are staying at Umtata , ours should stay at Lebowakgomo because they are coming to help us in Pietersburg . Why do they not use only one car? I would like to know through you , Mr Speaker , why the Chief Minister did not give the magoši of Sekhukhunel and their travelling allowances as he has called them and the members of the Parliament . The Thabamoopos has received theirs . How can we trust such a government that rules according to merits , Mr Speaker? One other thing which is embarrassing is that the Chief Minister has said that in Lebowa we have a freedom of speech and freedom of worship whereas some applications of other churches directed to him were referred to Pretoria . I just want to know; if ever Jesus come back again on earth shallwe say he is from this or that university? Or are we those murderers of Him if we prohibit people who worship Him by building churches? That is all I wanted to know , Mr Speaker . Hon . Chief Minister should not be worried I'll send these questions to him. Thank you !

KGOŠI TSEKE MABOOE : Mr Speaker , there is nothing wrong in the Chief Minister's policy speech . Though he has phrased it clear , we shall mark some parituclar points . He has mentioned that some magoši are holding the crown for the others . I would like to know , for whom does Kgoši K.K. Sekhukhune is holding a crown for because here it is mentioned that he has taken over from Kgoši Rhine Sekhukhune? Is this Rhine Sekhukhune dead? As his relatives , were we informed about his death because they have nominated another kgoši here? It is painful honourable members , because this man was educated up to Turfloop to come and rule his people . We were also congratulating this man to become a true and dedicated leader of his people . When they have called him to come and rule his people we were amazed to hear that he will not rule . According to our tradition we know that the leadership can be achieved temporarily when the former leader is dead . Now where is this kgoši's son? Is he alive ? Where is his family? Everybody including the central Government knows the leader of Sekhukhuneland at Maroteng . I just want to know who has confisticated his papers that satisfy that he should be a kgoši , and signed by the State President . Are the magoši coing to live in that way?

135 (b)

I am now on the issue of Lebowa and Gazankulu boundaries . I understand that there are members who feel that the Cabinet should neither go nor talk with Gazankulu . To built a huge country of Lebowa you should talk with them . They are your brothers because you are of the same colour . I know Professor Ntsanwisi . He is a friendly person . I have been discussing with him about the erection of Lebowa into a great country . I am surprised to note that you are fearing to face him today . You see if you suggest that you should send our Commissioner- General to the Central Government to deliver this complain , he will do so . What will you say if the Central Government instruct him to meet Professor Ntswanwisi ? If you fear your own brother and tries to hide behind a White man , what kind of a help will you get from a white man? According to my believe I don't think there is a Shangaan , Ndebele and a Mopedi nowadays . I believe we are one and the same thing . There is no any other Black nation . To motivate that , we are married to the Ndebeles and the Shangaans . You are living next to each other in this very location . To direct my advise towards the Chief Minister I would say that he should take care of the Parliament of Lebowa . We should respect one another as well as this house when we are speaking in this Parliament . You will be guilty if you allow them to speak whatever they deem is necessary because we may send you to go and see the Minister of Bantu Education but when you arrive there he may chase you away . I don't know whether it was an excitement or an ordinary happiness . I have heard you yesterday saying that the Minister of Bantu Education and Administration is your friend as you were born together and that you will meet . These kinds of words are marked in the governments . You don't even know your brother , your father or your parents . He may chase you away when you arrive there as you will be frightened . You should be able to choose words when you are speaking . When these other members go astray , it is your own responsibility . You are now complaining about the boundaries . You have said that some lands have been given to the Shangaans , the Swazis , by the way I am a Swazi ; and the others are given to the Bophuthatswana homeland . You are now crying . If you curse the government it will not provide you with your own land . I still remember my father who at one stage advised me how to live with the Whites . He told me how they fought with them , using swords whereas the Whites used bayonets and guns . He said that the Whites deprived them of the land and property . He said to me that we should respect those who have defeated us . Similarly , we should respect our leaders so that they can help us . It is better today that you are able to sit at the table with your leaders for tea . You can even discuss your problems around the table with them . Unlike in the past , today you cannot put off your hat and crawl on your feet when approaching your superiors . I will now move to another issue . In the Chief Minister's policy speech there is a sum of R84 000 allotted to the magoši and indoenas for gifts and miscelleneous . Now, I would like to know for whom is this money allotted? If this money is not used , it should be transferred to the salaries of the members of the Parliament for increment because we magoŝi do not receive it . We don't know who is using this money . It is funny that this lump of money has been put aside for the magosi but we never receive it . I don't know whether I am part and parcel of Lebowa or not . Further , I would like to know why this local tax is not increasing . Do the young men in our community marry because the money does not increase? But every man has got a family . Or perhaps when they are going to pay tax do they say to the government that they do not have wives?

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I can't understand this Lebowa tax . I don't know how is Lebowa going to develop because the secretaries who ought to collect the tax money around Lebowa do not do their work . For your information I had more than fifty people at my village who wanted to pay the tax but I didn't collect their money . Hence the money which should be received by Lebowa is just kept in liquidity . I have requested that the secretaries should come and collect the money . If they don't want to collect it I will take it and put it in my community's account . I want to end up by advising the Chief Minister so that he should not lend into trouble . We should advise him because we have elected him . He should not do whatever he wants . Coming to the board which should advise him I would say he should elect men who know the country well . He should not elect the board according to the relationship or friendship . I am a person who does not speak lies . I can tell you who knows that what I am speaking is truth . The Chief Minister knows that Nkadimeng and Phetedi are fighting for the occupation of the land . But now he has elected one of the two as his adviser . MR S.S. MOTHAPO : Thank you , Mr Speaker . When we come to this question of the Advisory Board of the Chief Minister , I would like to briefly point out one little mistake ; i.e. if this Advisory Board is going to advise him on the questions which affect the boundaries it is true that those dikgoši who do have dispute with their neighbours should not be involved because the Chief Minister will get a one sided story . In our case Kgoši Chuene and Kgoši Maja are having disputes on the question of boundaries . We would , therefore , be very pleased if this name could be withdrawn just because of this very controversial issue . In our constituency I think I am quite clear about it . I have no doubt about it . This is the position . I have one basic question that I would like to ask the Chief Minister . On the 5th of February , 1977 we had a Black Unity Front meeting in this honourable house and this seems to have impressed the Chief Minister a great deal so much that I expect him to say something about his standpoint on this question and to further ask for mandate from this house to continue doing so . Since he has failed to do so I would like to ask him to enlighten this house as to his standpoint on this issue . I will briefly state my standpoint on this issue . As far as I am concerned , the Black nation in South Africa is tired of these fragmentations , separate development in toto . The Black nation is against these tactics of divide and rule . And I think in the Black Unity Front there is something that the fruits of separate development bear the squables that we have all over the country about the boundaries . The honourable members who are next to the Gazankulu government or who are residing with the Gazankulu people say that they have been staying there peacefully before this thing was made . Obviously there was really peace there . But someone threw out a dry bone to cause the people to right amongst themselves . I have been listening very carefully to those who were discussing the question of boundary disputes . As far as I am concerned , even if Lebowa can get defined boundaries as well as the other homelands territories tomorrow - this will not lead us to a really true freedom that we want for our country because basically it is still the question of dancing to the music of the Central Government . Mr Speaker , I think we are a grown up nation . The Central Government has been doing the whole thinking for us and for such a long time . It is high time that we think for ourselves . And if we think for ourselves we must remember that the old daddy accept it . And as a result we must be able to face the consequences . I think the greatest demand in the whole of South^

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Africa today is leaders who got a real vision . A vision of building up the black nation . A vision which goes beyond this ethnic grouping and the socalled parliaments as we see them here . It is frustrating as the honourable member for Thabamoopo constituency tells you today that after five years being in this house very little has been achieved by this honourable house . And all along we have been following this policy of separate development . If separate development has brought some type of green pastures , it has only done that to members of this Legislative Assembly and not to the public at large . It is high time that we think about our people outside . Mr Speaker , we have drafted a lot of resolutions year in and year out in this Legislative Assembly . Were they really followed up? I think the Cabinet can honestly say we did try our best . But somewhere somehow the whole thing is brought back to us . This cannot be done by a mini Legislative Assembly like yours . So all that this Legislative Assembly is doing is to bump against the walls right round . We are right inside the walls . But I think there is a way out . And a way out is in the Black Unity Front . I think in the black Unity Front even those Blacks who are considered fire eaters and radicals , can be accommodated .......

THE SPEAKER :

Order !

honourable member please be relevant .

MR S.S. MOTHAPO : I am relevant . I am talking about Black Unity Front as I posed the question to the Minister and I am confining myself to the very basic issues . Black Unity Front and we as the Lebowa people . What can it offer us? Is that not relevancy , Mr Speaker?

THE SPEAKER :

Be relevant please !

MR M.W. KGATLA : Point of order , Mr Speaker . We are directly speaking on the Chief Minister's vote . Mr Speaker , Sir , the honourable the Chief Minister said nothing about Black Unity Front so far . And therefore the hon . member is out of order because he does not speak on what the Chief Minister has spoken . Otherwise rule him down .

MR S.S. MOTHAPO : Thank you , Mr Speaker , it is the question of the policy and not the question of what he says . It seems the hon . member here is lost . For five years he has been in this house but he has not learnt anything whatsoever . THE SPEAKER : Honourable member , I think you are irrelevant . be relevant .

Please try to

MR S.S. MOTHAPO : Thank you , Mr Speaker . In South Africa today it cannot be denied that we do have our youth who are growing impatient with this system because they feel that we are not achieving any good with this system .

THE SPEAKER : speech .

Hon . member , please say something about the Chief Minister's

MR S.S. MOTHAPO : This is part of the policy . clarify us about his policy of this thing .

THE SPEAKER : you down .

I want the Minister to

Hon . member , I am giving you the last chance .

MR L. C. MOTHIBA :

Point of order , Mr Speaker .

Otherwise I rule

I would like to refer you

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to rule 131 of the Rules of Procedure which deals specifically with this part of debate . It says " ..... the debate , when resumed , shall be confined to the financial and economic state of Lebowa and the general principles of Government policy ...... " And , Mr Speaker , according to me the general principles of the Government policy and administration includes what he is saying because according to him he is suggesting an alternative . He has already given us that very little which has been done . Now he is showing us what he can do to make more . Now it is just a matter of indicating the general principles of the policy if he agrees with the existing ones he will say .. If he does not agree with them and he has an alternative , Mr Speaker , I feel to be fair , he has to get his chance .

MR S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr Speaker , I don't know how many times have I been interrupted and I wonder whether you are still going to allow me another 5 minutes . Mr Speaker , all what I was saying now is that we are faced with the militant group which is highly dissatisfied with the present setup . And this group cannot be accommodated in this system because it has already rejected it . From what we have achieved practically within five years , it has proved beyond any doubt that this system is leading us nowhere . The very fact that we experienced riots last year and which were caused directly by the young people shows us as old people that somewhere somehow there is a question of generation gap . This generation gap cannot be bridged by this type of a system . A better system and a better way has to be found which will accommodate our youths . Mr Speaker , we are divided as elderly people . We have allowed the policy of separate development to divide us . But the youths in general are united . Is it not a high time that we as elderly people should go to them? We as elderly people , seeing that this system does not bring about the necessary fruits that are expected for a free and independent kind of a nation , should get to other Blacks irrespective of the ethnic grouping and build up one good type of a Black nation which will struggle and strive for our political , economic and social rights . All that we have been saying about boundaries in fact , it seems some of the honourable members here are satisfied with this kind of ministate which makes us not members of the real South Africa . Our people have been endorsed for reference books that their reference books are not in order in Pietersburg , Johannnesburg and anywhere . How much more if it is going to happen after you have acquired the type of a status that the government is pushing us to? Transkei is a very good example at the present moment . People are being tossed up and down because they have accepted it . The implication that I get from this question of being encouraged to get the boundaries is that we might as well bump or land on this question of autonomous status . THE SPEAKER :

Order !

Your time is up .

MR M.G. MATHEBE : Yesterday we went to Kgosi Mahlangu's place to hear about a complaint between himself and Kgoši Mapoch . We were promised that from Kgoši Mahlangus we will via through Kgoši Mathebe's place who has the same problem of the boundaries . But it was already late when we left kgoši Mahlangu's place . We kept on saying that we shall visit him . But later we went to Mapulaneng and Bolobedu where there is the same problem . I understand that this problem is about to be solved but we have not yet touched Moutse . I would like to move that a day should be suggested that we should visit Moutse . But I will reserve this issue for the superiors . I don't want to speak more about Moutse problems since the honourable members will observe them whenever they visit Moutse .

At Moutse , we are the people who have bought ourselves lands . But it is painful that our lands should be claimed by the Central Government as belonging to Mapoch . You will remember the speeches of other members like Andries Mahlangu saving that Mapoch has left for Pretoria and Delmas in

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(a)

1883. He has just come to our place yesterday in 1924. He has only 52 years staying at his present place . The Moutse land extending from Olifants River to the Moutse River belongs to the Bantwanes . Where you find some ruins and a small community of the Bantwane it is the land of the Bantwane people . Mapoch is also staying at our mines . He has pleaded with us when he arrived . And in 1964 we were still visiting each other . What he is trying to negotiate secretly with the Central government is a surprise to us . I have said that we have bought the lands for ourselves . THE SPEAKER : Order ! Let me remind honourable members that we are only left with 15 minutes to discuss this matter . Go on ! MR M.G. MATHEBE : Now, our land are withheld by Mapoch . There is also one of the land where Mapoch and the Central Government have settled their own kgoši . This is the land of Maphothoma at Vaalsfontein . There is also another land of Kgoši Mathebe in which he is allowed to enter only if he has a permit . The Commissioner of Mapoch at Groblersdal sends Mapoch himself whenever he wants to talk to Kgoši Mathebe . One other painful issue is that the Commissioner who knows Mapoch clearly has been appointed as the Commissioner at Moutse . He holds some discussions with Mapoch behind closed doors at our offices . I would like to plead with this house that if it has powers into magisterial duties it should remove this man because he encourages Mapoch's interests . Another issue which worries the Moutse people is that there has been rumours that they will be removed from their present land . In September 1975 the Chief Minister came at a small village called Mokgwaneng to condone the rumours . It seems this government was deceiving us because in the books of estaimates , Moutse is not included . In last year's book , Moutse does not appear . Why does Lebowa not spend over this land so that when it is supposed to be removed Lebowa should also become affected? The last portion of houses were erected for the last time in 1966 at our location viz . Elandsdoring when we were supposed to have trekked . Lebowa government builds nothing at this location . Perhaps this Government also knows that we will be removed . I don't disagree that Lebowa does not have money but it should pop out something for us also . There are people who after their licences for businesses have been approved are also provided with cards to feel and agree that they shall not demand any compensation from their businesses when the village is removed . The church men are also told and served similarly by the commissioner or the agent of Lebowa Government . Through you , Mr Speaker , I am appealing to get a clear explanation of this matter . Concerning education I feel very sorry to comment on it . Yesterday when this issue was discussed the Minister of Education complained that you are leading him in his speech though you did not know what he was going to say . I am aware that this House is aware that our children do not need a teaspoon of education but full education . I would suggest that when we stop the votes for other departments we should transfer about 20? of it which can be more or less R20 million to the Department of Education . The remaining sum will be allocated to other departments . It was mentioned last year that the Department of Finance which falls under the Chief Minister should be divided into Authority Affairs and Finance . We were not informed about the conclusion . Hence I would like to be briefed . Further I would like to know about the money that was promised for the tribal authorities . Did this money start to be implemented last year or some previous years ago ? The Moutse magoši have never experienced a receipt of it . Is it sent to some particular people or to those who have asked for it? Or is there any programme followed for the magoši who receive this money annually? One other issue which I would like to ask is that ....

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(b)

THE SPEAKER : Order ! Your time is up . I shall therefore call upon the Chief Minister to reply to the questions . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker and hon . members , I have countless questions here . It is no exaggeration that they must be approximately hundred questions here . I will therefore reply to some of them and others will be replied , I think on the question time in future . I do want to point out that some of the questions do not belong to my Department as such . They belong to other Departments . Before addressing myself to the various questions here , I want to express a word of appreciation of the kindly advice that has been directed to me by the hon . member from Nebo , Kgoši Masemola . Unfortunately after he has said a very wise thing that have been said , hon . members continued as if he hasn't said it . It is absolutely true , Mr Speaker , that respect and honour and values like that are always necessary amongst human beings . But these things demand the highest standard of evaluation the highest standard of culture - the highest standard of behaviour and civilazation . They demand effort . And I wouldn't agree more with the hon . member that this house should pay attention to respect for one another . The hon . member was not speaking to me . He was speaking to us . If I had the power I would have got on from this chair with a big stick and hit some of the people here . It is true! That is how I felt sometimes . And I make this confesion that it was a great temptation for me to remain here cool and collected . Some people make statements instead of asking question . Some people asked questions with the wrong type of language.Tney were defying instead of asking peacefully for information in the interest not of this house , but in the interest of the public of Lebowa , that would be a contribution . Mr Speaker , Sir , this is just a running commentary by way of introduction . Well , I should take the opportunity again of asking with respect the hon . house - Now that they realise the serious situation which we as Blacks in Lebowa and as blacks in the Republic of South Africa find ourselves . Isn't it time for us not to yell and shout at the top of our voices but to think a little harder? I am giving you facts and facis now and little later on I will have the opportunity of replying to this debate . The first one is : the trip to Moutse is still receiving attention and I crave your indulgence for patience . Financial aid to tribal authorities and others - is an item we have repeatedly stated in this house and authorities concerned must through their magistrate offices apply for their needs when they complete estimates their tribal estimates . I will have something to say about this a little later on but I do want to add that this aid we would like this aid to be utilised by all the tribal authorities as far as possible . If you have your tribal estimates and you don't ask for tribal assistance , of course we cannot know what your needs are . It is only when we see you want to ask for , we consider that provided funds will permit . Little while ago we haven't completed our visits here . We haven't been to Moutse . We haven't been to some other places but we have been to the regional authorities in various parts of Lebowa . And amongst other things we discovered that members of this hon . house do not report back to their communities . They don't know how to utilize the various departments - the various Ministers and including the proper drawing up , of their tribal estimates . Their requisitions · we discovered that . I must repeat , Mr Speaker , Sir , that it is expected of the hon . members of this chamber to report back whether you are a royal person or you are not a royal person or are a member of this chamber you have got to report back to the community when you come , as to the activities of this chamber so that the people there can know how to utilize the machinery. One of the ways in which we could meet the question of water shortages in Lebowa is for the

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tribal authorities to provide in their tribal estimates funds of water . It is not just providing for shortage of a vehicle for the tribe , a shortage for wages for the tribal clerk , shortage for an office or shortage for ploughing units or shortage of bulls and rams and things like that . It is not only those things however , necessary they are . Tribal authorities should always be thought how to evaluate their own situations . Water resource is such a very important issue that it surprises me that each time I have a look at the tribal estimates , I don't find any provision for water . I am not blaming anybody . I ascribe this to the fact that our people have not yet mastered the technique of how to compile their own requisitions . And some members remark , Mr Speaker, that when the Cabinet went around to see for themselves at what is taking place they were canvassing and campaigning . We need not do that . It is the record of this Government that will campaigne for us . We have done everything . It is all right . If we have done nothing the people will judge us . But we are compelled by the constitution to work right up to the time when the Legislative Assembly will say to this Cabinet : "Stop ! Get out ! " Even after this we will continue to work until we are stopped by regulation not to work . I will come back to that a little afterwards at the end of the speech . Somebody said what will happen if we could have divided Authority Affairs from Finance? It may be , I didn't very clearly state the thing but I thought I said something about economic affairs in the policy statement . Since the last session of this Legislative Assembly I have had protracted and proper discussions with the hon . the Minister , M.C. Botha in Pretoria and in Cape Town until there was sympathy with our situation in Lebowa . And he said all right I am going to appoint a specialist to go and examine your position in Lebowa . In consultation with your staff of experts here , he will have to report to me the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development . And on that report , I will be able to reply on you ( meaning me ) . The official concerned did come and he did carry out the investigations after it was a long time before I heard anything from the hon . the Minister . Until I went to Cape Town recently and asked him about the question of extra portfolio for Lebowa . He said , by the way , yes , this was handled and there must be a report somewhere but I haven't studied the report . I will study the report and let you know. Fortnight ago I received a letter from the hon . Mr M.C. Botha on this score . He said to me : your request regarding extra portfolio will be discussed . It was felt after appropriate exchanges , that we shouldn't just have the Department of Finance as such . It should be a Department of Mining and the Department of Economic Affairs all in one that would have enough work to do for a Minister and his staff . And now I am expecting to meet his excellency the Commissioner- General to find out what the chances are of the new portfolio . In my policy speech said I was doing a battle in this regard and this is not an exaggeration . I will be approaching his excellency very shortly to hear what the chances are . This is just to give the answer to what has happened to the idea of having an additional portfolio separating authority affairs from Finance . On the question of Advisory Board , I find it extremely amusing , Mr Speaker that the Cabinet can appoint people who will be inefficient and will not do their job just purely and simply because they are relatives . Mr Speaker , I am in a great dilemma . I am in a real predicament . All these hundred members of the Legislaitve Assembly here are my relatives . I am telling you the real truth . All the lot are my relatives . I don't know what to do unless I get out and you put a white man here or somebody else who is not related at all with you . Perhaps someone from Malawi or someone from Nigeria who will have no connection whatsoever with you except ethnic connections . Or you get out and I remain here and they bring the Indians and the Coloureds

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and other people here with whom to deal . Otherwise I don't know really because you are all related to me . You take your pen and then write the lot of them you will find that we are relatives here . Let me assure you. I consulted the Cabinet extensively on the composition of the Advisory Board . Any Advisory Board which was consituted whether it is for agriculture or anything else I had to do very extensive investigations . Perhaps the final outcome of this work has disappointed some of the people who expected to be on the committee . Well if that has happened , it is just unfortunate . But , Mr Speaker , the yardsticks were these : consideration of age , experience , knowledge and responsibility i.e. a sense of responsibility and what image he has in his community . Now if you consider these five criteria , Kgoši Phethedi is himself a chairman of the Regional Authority in Sekhukhuneland but I didn't choose him. He is chosen by his own peers , those who know him I think on merit and not on demerits . Kgoši Motodi Sekhukhune at the other side of Sekhukhuneland is an outstanding figure who is respected by the majority of his colleagues and the people there and the magoši . Even at Naphuno , the other part of Lebowa Kgošigadi Sekororo is herself the chairlady of the regional Authority . Kgoši Maja here is a senior kgoši without any exaggeration here in Thabamoopo , who has seen things and he is doing things . He has a knowledge . He has experience and the image . I proceed to Kgoši Moloto here . He is a senior man , highly respected and he commands a lot of experience and wisdom . And now Kgoši Ledwaba - Nkidikitlana . He is an outstanding - very outstanding . I think he is a vice chairman of the Regional Authority in the absence of Kgoši Seleka who is himself a chairman of the Regional Authority . He is a man of experience , a man of knowledge and a man of image with respect . Mr Speaker , Sir , we have asked you to be in the group . I don't need to elaborate in as far as your position is concerned . If your integrity was doubted , you wouldn't be the Speaker of this hon . house . All these people are loyal . They are relatives . They are your relatives . What must I do? And as far as I am seated here , Mr Speaker , I will continue to use a yardstick that is absolutely impartial . If the accident of birth is like a thing that creeps in , it is irrelevant . In conclusion , those who suspect my motives are certainly guilty of those motives themselves . I want to give the figures regarding the contributions of the various districts and I will read very slowly so that those who are to write can write down . They are twelve districts in all the period involved from April 1976 to February 1977 :

Bochum : the contribution is Mapulaneng : the contribution is Mokerong : 11 " " Bolobedu : Moutse " "" Naphuno " "" Nebo 11 " " Praktiseer "1 Sekgosese 11 "1 "1 Sekhukhuneland" " ( 11 ) Thabamoopo "1 (12 ) Seshego ==

(1) (2) (3 ) (4) (5) (6) (7 ) (8) (9) ( 10 )

The total is .....

R33 17 93 26 18 2 17 24 27 12

412 690 082 706 586 804 372 432 982 260

39 286 35 886 R 349 498

Mr Speaker , that is all .

MR M.W. KGATLA : Mr Speaker , I don't know whether my question was very clear . I asked this question in the sense that we get a statistic perhaps we could get the tribal authorities in those regions to come and make

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comparisons . I wonder whether my question was clear as all as that . Thank you, Sir !

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker , although I intimated that the various Departments will react and give answers to questions affecting their departments . There is however, one thing I should like to explain briefly This is in connection with education . The details will be provided for by the Department concerned . Mr Speaker , there is a tricky business about the allocation about the way how to evaluate educational allocations . Not only Education vote but the other votes as well . When you use percentages it doesn't matter how many millions you have . It is just a hundred . If the total number of fountainpens I have is one , in percentages it is 100% . If I have thousand fountainpens , in percentages , it is just a hundred . So if you have two departments and you equalise allocation , that means each one of them will get 50% . If you have four each will get 25%. If you have ten each of the portfolio will get 10% . If you have hundred departments each will get only 1 %. This has nothing to do with how much that will be . It has nothing to do with how much money is there ; what 1% or 2% or 3% really is in terms of money figures . Now I want to put this quite clear . There are people who think we should allocate 40% out of the 100% to Education exclusively . We shall then be left with 60% . Mr Speaker , Sir , although we have seven portfolios we have more departments than the portfolios . So after you have taken out Education you have the following departments to provide for : Departments of Authority Affairs , the Department of Finance , Department of Economic Affairs , Department of Justice , Department of Agriculture and Forestry , Department of Works , Department of Health and the Department of Information . And now you are going to have Police Services . That is in addition to Education . They are twelve departments . Divide 60 by 12 and you have now 5% of the budget for these various departments . You will realise that there will be chaos . So don't use percentages please . Use the actual cash . That is how much money is actually given to this department , to that department etc. and not percentages . Now the Department of Education had an increase of R3 million 63 thousand on their own budget . But in addition to that this is important . In addition to that , the Department of Public Works has provided for Education to the tune of R776 000. And in addition to that we have to provide for pensions for teachers and for nurses and other people . And then we have to estimate . We estimated R1 million and 75 thousand as contributions to pensions and profident funds . And this covers the teachers . So , Mr Speaker , Sir, in actual fact the provision for education is +R5 490 000. And I would like to put it that the Department of Education will be able to show you more details that we kept our promise . The last sessions we said we are going to do everything in our power to try and give Education a chance . The hon . members , you should not just look at the R3 million ; it isn't that there are other amounts coming from the other departments that augment the whole provision for Education . Although an hon . member in this house referred to me as the so- called doctor of Education . Now, I want to emphasise that I am not competing with him ; with his talents . I praise God for what he has and God help him . I quite agree hon . members , that we want a lot of money really not only for Education but for the general development of this territory . And I know that this matter of Education is disturbing the people of Lebowa wherever they are , in the urban areas , on the mines on the farms and everywhere . In fact at the last meeting of the Ruling Party ( L.P.P. ) of which I am the leader, in Mahwelereng , we got instructions from the people who represented the conference that a special levy- education levy should be hammered out here in Lebowa by the earliest possible opportunity . So , if we had to administer

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to the will of the people , it would be necessary for this Cabinet to take steps to frame a law specially to provide for an Education levy, to provide for an expansion of service in Education . As I said , I am leaving the details to the Department of Education . MR M.W. KGATLA : Mr Speaker, I would like to ask whether it should not be better to discuss this issue under education or if we do not understand what the hon . Chief Minister was trying to explain .....

THE CHIEF MINISTER :

I wonder , Mr Speaker , what my position is …………..

THE SPEAKER : Order! We shall give the hon . Chief Minister to say everything and get through your questions . You should write down whatever you want then ask him later on . MR M.W. KGATLA : us that ...

Mr Speaker , I have an experience that he will go and tell

THE SPEAKER : Hon . member , I did not give you a chance to speak . the Chief Minister should continue .

I have said

MR M.W. KGATLA : I am standing on a point of order , Sir . If a member is not satisfied with a question as answered by the Chief Minister now on Education , do we leave it now and come and ask it under Education? I have an experience that you are going to tell us that it has been decided in the Chief Minister's speech and no more . And what are we doing under these circumstances? The percentage worked out here was not correct . I wanted to point out that , that is my question , Mr Speaker . In the Rules of Procedure it is understood that a question that has been answered will never be asked again in the same sitting because I am going in the same sitting as I am going to repeat is under Education and then you are going to rule me down . My privilege , Mr Speaker ! THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker , Sir , I think the hon . Kgosi Mothapo made references to the item G although we are not yet fully on the Committee Stage . The amount is R53 600. He referred to it as being for entertainment . I think it is a mistake . It is not for entertainment . It is there for office equipment and mechanical labour serving devices . I thought I could just put record straight . There is another one that deals with funds provident funds and I think pension funds . When he asked the question and he expressed himself fully , I gain an impression that he was under the impression that the Bill that we discussed and passed through this house has something to do with it . No. It has nothing to do with this at all . This provident fund and pensions are for the civil service . It is not for the members of the Legislative Assembly . It could have been very irregular if we proceeded to provide funds before we knew whether the law will be passed by this house . Another question was that although we took the trips to see the places in Lebowa where there were disputes , he ( Kgoši T.J. Mothapo ) reckoned that we could have utilised the money towards Education . Mr Speaker , and hon . members , considerations were carefully given to the value of land that is to be misappropriated from Lebowa . The value of that land amounts to millions ; and you think that if we loose that and we kept this two million or whatever two thousands or whatever it is , isn't that penny wise and pound foolish diplomacy? It should be borne in mind quite seriously , Mr Speaker , that if you take those lands whether you think in terms of Kgoši Mahlangu or in terms of Mapulaneng , Naphuno , Phalaborwa , Bolobedu , Sekgosese etc. etc. , if you take away the people themselves and in deed , Mr Speaker , I am quite aware of the mineral resources we are going to loose . Phalaborwa itself is heavily mine realised . Can we afford to loose that? You have rich deposits of cho-

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rundum in Sekgosese . And you are not informed about these . They are not exposed because you will become more riotous . The part of the country where Kgoši Mahlangu is staying has rich agricultural potentials . Everybody who goes to Bushbuckridge and see what is happening there and the environment there , will realise that that is not a place from which you can part . The history books reveal that the original indigenous people of this land i.e the hottentots , the bushmen and some of our folks had very fat sheep and cattle and then came the explorer from Europe and got those sheeps by giving them knives and shining pieces of metal . They took advantage of the ignorance of the people . Now , are we going to be taken advantage of? And by the lack of activity we sit down here and we let things go and we talk here hot air? Mr Speaker , Sir , I should like this house really to sit down calmly and think of the responsible respective values of what will be our losses or our gains if we do not stand on our feet now and defend whatever we have . Allow me then to refer to the questions asked here by the hon . Mr Makola . He said in his opening remarks that the boundary of Lebowa is the Vaal River and Limpopo River . I would agree if we could restore it to what it was to be . I would be very pleased if that can happen . In 1842 the South African Republic was established here by the Dutch people in the Transvaal and we were in the land . I think the first one to object about this was Sekhukhune . But they gained the foothold from that time and spread within the Transvaal until today . This process of acquiring our land and repossessing us went on until today . We have reached a stage now when we say here and no more . That's what we are saying now. Mr Speaker, Sir , the thing is , do we really realise what was taking place over the years? If I can pose a question to this hon . house I would say where is the boundary of Lebowa now? If the late Sekhukhune I and Dinizulu would rise from their graves and tell you and me that the boundary of Lebowa is the Vaal River here and that side of Vaal River is Moshesh and that portion over there is me , Dinizulu the great Bull , what would we say to ourselves now? If anybody can rise now he must make a contribution as to tell us where the boundary is or where the boundary ought to be . If it is ought to be , then he must tell us how we must recover the lost ground . Don't turn around and attack the Chief Minister . He is an innocent man . I am a victim of circumstances like you . I am doing my best to move . It is for my country men to assist me and not to condemn me . Not to blame me . Tell me what to do and I will do it if it's possible . The same hon . Minister says to me , am I telling the truth? Those mining houses are coming to Lebowa . You wait and see . I agree with you perfectly that the name of the South African Republic is stinking abroad . But I am a South African . You are a South African ; the Whites are South Africans , what do we do about it? That is why I was personally quite prepared to see the Black Unity Front coming here to Lebowa because they stood for the principles of Lebowa . They lack one thing we have . A passionate commitment that we want to practise love and peace because in my preparation - my friend over there calls me the socalled doctor , in my preparation I have made to believe and I am convinced that love and peace are high standards of discipline that no ragamuffin can reach . That's passport here on earth as well as in heaven .

I went overseas the couple times ago . I am going overseas shortly after this session . Not because I want to , but because circumstances in Lebowa compel me to do so . Although the achievements are not very much to speak of, yet we achieved something . I went to Switzerland and brought you home R45 000. I went to Europe and brought you R750 000 for the trade school over there at Phalaborwa . If you go down to Groblersdal , Motetema Township you will see a trade school . That is the result of the negotiations between those who have money and me . This is still a secret but we are negotiating and the prospects are good for another trade school for Bushbuckridge . This very morning I had before me , Mr Van Vuuren and Mr Mondale of the

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French companies . They have come here - they want to open up a mine at Netlingburg not very far away from Kgosi Ntwampe's area. This very morning when you were still asleep the Deputy Minister , Mr Cruywagen was here when we open the Parliament . I had a big chat with him on the railway facilities for Metlingburg . I should like the hon . member , Mr Makola to recall that we have Tubatse Ferrochrome plant . I went to the U.S. and negotiated . And then he asks me : Are you telling the truth that something of your visitors will be beneficial to Lebowa? (Interjection ) ………….

THE SPEAKER :

The house shall now adjourn until 10h00 tomorrow.

THE

HOUSE

ADJOURNED A T

17h00

FRIDAY

15TH

APRIL

1977 .

The proceedings commenced at 9h00 . The Speaker read a prayer and thereafter Mr A.S. Mahlangu moved that the minutes be adopted . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker and Honourable Members , I received a copy of the Bantu Homeland Constitution Amendment Bill which is before the Parliament in Cape Town . This is a Bill that deals with the Internal Autonomy of the Homelands . I have arranged that copies of this Bill be made available to the members of the Chamber . I see the copies being issued to the Honourable Members . I hope the Honourable Members will study this Amendment Bill very carefully . As I hope it will be possible sometime next week to have caucus , a special caucus to deliberate on it . Mr Speaker, Sir! THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker , Sir , there are some questions I should like to answer . The questions relating to the position at Senthumule and Kgothama And along with that the questions relating to the position of the Kgoši Machaka and headman Manthata . Mr Speaker, Sir , it is very clear to me that the Honourable Member for Sekgosese does not keep sufficient touch with his constitutency . If he did , he wouldn't ask this question at all because I have sufficiently made it known to the people of Senthumule and Kgothama what their position is . And they know it very well . They would never have gone to their member of Parliament to ask questions when I have replied them . The psotion briefly is that this government has repeatedly consulted Pretoria leading that these people of Senthumule and Kgothama be given alternative accommodation . And the Central Government has undertaken to place them where they found alternative accommodation . Their difficulties with the Venda Government are well known to us . And I don't need to go over those difficulties here and now. But I must emphasize that the people of Senthumule and Kgothama know their position very clearly . And similarly Mr Speaker , Kgoši Machaka and headman Manthata know their position very clearly. It is only a short while ago when Kgoši Machaka and headman Manthata came here with more than 50 people . I could not even accommodate them in my own office . I gave them a conference room to accommodate that number . And now they know their position very well . And it is surprising to me that a member of Parliament of that constituency said they don't know their position . He doesn't know the position because he doesn't keep in touch with his constituency . That is the position briefly , Mr Speaker . Mr Speaker , Sir , on the question of who prepares estimates . Although I have had occasion in the past to answer this question , I will answer it again . The estimates are drawn by each department and then the whole Cabinet comes together , to co - ordinate matters . But the needs of each department are determined by each department . And eventually we decide on priorities as a group . There was a question too , I think this came from Kgoši Mathabatha about the people of Mabopane . I had occasion at the last conference of the Ruling Party to brief the whole conference on this matter of Mabopane and gaRankuwa and Ga-Kgapane , Kgošigadi Kekana's place . Briefly the position is that we have made repeated representations about the people of Mabopane . I have discussed this matter again with the Hon . Mr. M.C. Botha and the people of Mabopane and East of Lebowa have now the right to organize themselves there into committees and to take care of their own affairs . And the urban representatives will sort out whatever problems are there . So in that position I feel satisfied that some attention has been given to the difficulties .

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And I hope as time wear and tear we will get more and more satisfaction . Now, Mr Speaker , Sir , may I refer to the question of Kgoši A.S. Molepo . It is a pity really , Mr Speaker , that people who should know don't seem to know. I have never intended to give an exhaustive account of the events of all the magoši and things that are happening in Lebowa . All what I did in my policy speech was to give examples . Just to explain the position of the Cabinet and the position of the State President toward recommendations that come to us from bakgomanas who are incharge of the chieftainship . Similarly I have no intention of giving exhaustive accounts of all the developments that are taking place in Lebowa - whether they are in Agriculture , whether they are in Education whether they are anywhere else .

I only give examples where necessary . And now I should like to comment on the statement made that there are trouble here in Lebowa and the troubles started from 1973. Surely that is not true . There are problems that rose long before 1973 , which I have inherited . For example the troubles with press to come nearer home I know that in Kgoši Molepo's area they have troubles with Molelemane's group . They have difficulties with Mojapelo's group . And these are all difficulties . They didn't start in 1973. And there are problems in Sekhukhuneland . They didn't start in 1973. There are difficulties at Moletlane . The Honourable House will remember all these difficulties they have been there long before 1973. The difficulties at Bushbuckridge and environment , they are older than 1973. The difficulties of Kgosi Nchabeleng and Kgoši Phasha . The groups concerned can't get up and sa that we have done nothing . And too recently , we have had meetings with them here . And we are still persuing the matter . But these are old cases . And they are receiving attention . The question of the use of L.G. etc. it is perfectly true I want the Ministers to use cars . When they go to any place they must come independently because when they leave that particular place I expect each Minister to go his own way to go and attend to his duties . And they do so . And I don't want to handicap them and they blame me that I don't allow them freedom of attending to their numerous duties in different directions . But I can also add that the use of tribal vehicles and some of the magosis , I think they should take care of that . I think that is important . The question of boundaries as raised by the Honourable A.S. Mahlangu . He indicated that the committee of investigation should cover the entire Lebowa . Well it's a brilliant idea but our problem , at Mapulaneng - that was a focal point . As he said quite rightly . Kgoši Mapoch and Kgoši Mahlangu have boundary questions ; Mapoch people come and interfere with Kgoši Mahlangu's place and tranquility . But if it will ever become necessary that we have another commission to go into that particular problem I see no reason why shouldn't we do it - if it becomes necessary .

On that question of when - if the Bill becomes law about the pensions of Magoši I mean members of Parliament , if that becomes law, when the calculations should start on that particular time when the member concerned took an oath . And I think this Honourable House took an oath , I think in 1973 . And I think that will be about the time when they will start calculating . Those of course who prefer to do that . On the questions raised by Kgoši Mothapo , there are few others I want to add . I didn't touch upon them yesterday . He correctly referred to boards that have been planted at certain different places in Lebowa . This government didn't plant those things . We refused . We objected strongly . We have already written letters through the Commissioner- General requesting that those boards be removed . He wanted to know the members who are of the

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Road Transportation Board. We have these members , Mr Makgato P.A. , who is a chairman , and the member is Mr S.P. Manaka , who is a chief Librarian in Turfloop and also another member is Kgoši M.T. Matlala of Phokoane , Nebo and the secretary is Mr. Nake and the clerk for the particular Board is Mr. R.C. Maredi . On a question raised by Kgoši Mashegoane . Well he told me in your presence that he has no confidence in me . I must tell him in your presence that I don't need his confidence . But I must qualify that , he has a tribe of 100 families . I need the confidence of 100 families . And I know they have confidence in me . The hundred families . They are using a school a very beautiful school next door and the Honourable Member , Kgoši Mashegoane knows what happened . We have that school next door him and the children from hundred families are very glad to go into that school . And I would appeal to him to see that that school is officially opened by me so that I can tell them.

I must say - I must request him to teach people co-operat ion . I have my fears , Mr Speaker , if the hundred families know that Kgoši Mashegoane is opposing the government , if they can know that , what's going to happen to our magoši . This is no joke , this is pretty serious and I must ask him with all seriousness to teach people co - operation . He may not be aware of this point against the man growing a beard with sentimental implications . All right I leave that . You see but this is important for the House . You see oversea trips are • to be here than extremely dangerous trips . It is really much better to be outside . I sincerely prefer to be here . I don't need to enlarge upon that Mr Speaker . I just want to make the point clear that it is far . more dangerous overseas , in the air than below here . It costs a lot of courage to have the air and sacrifice . Now Kgoši Nkadimeng made mention of these questions . I want to react to them . He is terribly concerned about how the committees and advisory boards will function . There is a standing procedure as to how the boards have to function . Even this procedure is followed by other people like magistrates . If the member on the board to investigate a situation which is involved in which he has a very big interest , he doesn't sit on that commission . He recuses himself . This is the procedure followed even by the magistrates . And I expect that these boards wherever they are functioning if any member is involved in a situation he won't sit on that situation himself . He will have to refuse . Now on the question of acting magoši who are acting . Surely the question is not fair to me . I don't create magoši . They come from the people concerned . If the bakgomana tell me , this is our kgoši , I have no alternative . I can't say no . The Cabinet can't say no . Even the State President will find it necessary to accept the recommendations of the bakgomana . If they say he is acting , we can't interfere with that . You'll remember the Honourable Member that I put his question quite deliberately last session of Parliament as to how we must handle the situation . And to the best of my knowledge , this House couldn't find a better solution than we had. They said leave chieftainship for it has owners , and we just had to leave it like that . The only thing that come out of the discussion , was that we shouldn't have an advisory board on Authority Affairs . In fact we should have advisory board on each and every department . that makes that provision . And we have done exactly that we passed a law So with due respect , Sir , if you have ideas about how we should manipulate the situation , we would be pleased to listen to your suggestions . Especially now that we have Advisory Board it will be very pleased to be

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assisted with ideas of solving these troublesome problem of bogoši and its dignity . On bantustanism as you put it , Bantustanism , Bantus tans , I think will read to Bantustanism in my formal reply . Now on the Honourable Mr Nkadimeng's question about where the busstop is in Pietersburg , I don't know the exact locality , but it won't be the same place . It will be next door , I believe because they say it's a spacious place . That place where the bus- stop is , is very narrow and it doesn't provide the necessary room. But I should add that the area is still the manucipal area of Pietersburg . That's what I gathered . I haven't seen the place myself but I gathered that it will still be within the manucipal area of Pietersburg . About complaints to which you referred I am not aware of any complaints which have been registered against the uses of busstops . Whether there is a noise or there is no noise I don't know. But in my opinion it's very easy to correct noise .. You just keep quiete .. There will be no noise if people will just refrain from making noise and keep quiet or talk softly . Now on the question of the use of Afrikaans , I think this is provided for in your Constitution . You have agreed that you'll use English , Afrikaans and N. Sotho and so forth . The question of pass laws and influx regulations , I am not able to report any progress here but this Honourable House is aware of the efforts that have been done by this House in collaboration with the other Homeland leaders . We did report to this House and there has been no progress . We did report to this House that arising from the conference that was held by the homeland leaders with the Prime Minister of the Republic Mr Vorster , who was accompanied by Mr M.C. Botha and other officials , it was decided that this particular matter in so far as it affects the Blacks in towns should be reviewed carefully . A committee consisting of homeland leaders was constituted to go into this whole question and to report to the Prime Minister concerned . And he went to convene a meeting of the homeland leaders to discuss the report and give recommendations . I was one member of the committee . At that committee I am not the And we are awaiting to be asked to come to a meeting to go into the whole question of pass laws , influx control , home ownership and the rest . Certainly if there is anything to report on I shall report to the Honourable House . On the question of churches , that some churches are not allowed to function . Honourable Members , I am not aware of this at all , I would like to get details in deed . I am not sure whether it is the Department of Education or the Department of Interior or both that have to go into this whole matter , but I am not aware that there had been any complaints against those who want to practise their religion . And I think this matter is very vital and , I sincerely would like to know more about this objection . I would quite gladly like to get the answer in a written form . On question raised by the Hon . Member , Kgoši Tseke Mabooe . He noted that there is some money . I think it is item " G" He observed that he doesn't think he is benefitting from it , and he would like to benefit . I think that large sum of money is accounted for by the fact that you know in the past magoši who were Mebers of Parliament were not getting any stipends . They were only receiving their salaries as members of Parliament . But that situation was changed and magoši here are getting not only their salaries as members of Parliament but also their stipends as heads of tribes . And now we had to make financial provision before that service . That is how that money increased and I am very sure that you in your capacity as kgoši you benefit from that .

Mr Speaker, Sir , may I take this opportunity of expressing my thanks for the support and encouragement that most of the members of this Honourable House gave this government and myself in their expressions and their views

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regarding the various aspects of my policy speech . May I just make this observation yet again for emphasis . That if we value bogoši we must endange bogoši . It is our very rare heritage . I would sincerely suggest that kgoši should identify himself with law and order . If a kgoši is going to oppose law and order and I am afraid that he is bound to have reputations . if he has anything to tell his government , he has channels through A kgoši which to do so . Even in other lands we realise that the Prime Minister goes to the king for talks but it's unheard if that queen and the king can oppose his government . You must be careful . They are dikgoši although they are here they are still dikgoši . That's why they still receive stipends and if they are not going to behave carefully , they are going to ignite a dinamite outside . I don't care for difference of opinion but I am saying so with all earnestness . Having made that observation , Mr Speaker , Sir , I don't need to elaborate . On the question of the boundaries as to what really took place between Gazankulu Government and Lebowa Government when they had conferences , it is perfectly true we did meet at Magoebaskloof Hotel more than once . After session the Lebowa Government and the Gazankulu Government came to the conclusion that the land at our disposal was inadequate and authority was given to the Chief Minister that is Prof. Ntsanwisi and myself to arrange an interview with Pretoria , we would make submissions and representations for more land . Well , Honourable House , I am ashamed to tell you the following point for some inexplicable reason , my colleague Prof. Ntsanwisi told Pretoria that we have made no head way and they can do as they like . If it weren't the wisdom - for wisdom of Mr M.C. Botha , we would had a crisis of the first degree . Very fortunately he asked me what my version was of the talks ever there . And I told him as I told you that we found that the land at our disposal was inadequate and that Prof. Ntsanwisi and myself should have seen you to make representations for more land . And the Hon . Mr M.C. Botha said " look , you are saying something different from what I got from Gazankulu . I am going to call both of you . I am going to be precise . " A meeting was arranged accordingly and both Cabinets - the full Cabinet were in attendance together with other people . It was in Pretoria . To cut long story short , Prof. Ntsanwisi admitted that the facts were twisted . That is the day when Lebowa Cabinet came out with the idea of the Commission . He wasn't quiet impressed by that , but it was a reasonable course of action and all the level headed- people said it yesterday . And now you have Mr Uys ' Commission which started to work yesterday . And the Commissioner- General ·- his Excellency told me that he will do his best to see that this Commission expendites its work . In my policy speech I mentioned the members of the Commission and although a member of this house queried not only the capacity , but ability of the members concerned , in handling the situation , I must emphasize that I diamentrically disagree with the member concerned . We are represented by three outstanding figures . The one is a magistrate himself and he is familiar with legalities and his career - his occupation demands of him a vigilant eye that can see behind the word . And he is very competent the magistrate as far as my knowledge is concerned . There are two others outstanding educationists , Mr S.P. Kwakwa is one . And have been a leader of commission myself , and I know what is required when you are undertaking a job like that . And these two gentlemen , who are following my own profession , have those experiences because I know some of them, I have worked with some of them on the commissions .

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I have no doubt in my mind that they have a necessary background- the necessary experience and they have the necessary academic preparations . A job like that requires a man who knows Geography and they know Geography. A job like that should know human behaviour . You should know human behavious and they know human behaviour . I want to give you a secret . Prof. Ntsanwisi wanted to serve on that Commission himself , and when we heard that our members were consisting of these three men he withdrew because he knows he would not face them . I am satisfied Honourable House , that these men we have asked to serve on this commission of investigation are right people . They know languages alright . They can communicate . The three of them know English sufficiently . They know Afrikaans sufficiently . Then they know venacular sufficiently . And I am very satisfied that they should be able to stand us in good stand . I want to say , Mr Speaker , as I reacted to this situation of whether we can get to Pretoria , we can go to Pretoria ourselves and talk about boundaries . I think we should ask them to speed up their work so that we can have something and then we see whether we can approach Pretoria again on some other approach . Now to come back to the question of " Bantustanism " the Honourable House that which they know, upto 1948 the White South African was satisfied that he could rule the land under segregation policy pure and simple . There was to be a top dog and an underdog . The top dog was black - I mean the underdog was black and the top dog was white . But it occurred to the top dog , the white dog that the underdog was shaking dangerously like that . And the top dog was now threatening to be toppled over and consequently they said no , we mustn't have this arrangements . Let us have this barrier perpendicularly like this . If we have that like this , remove it from this horizontal position and bring it here the vertical position perpendicularly, so that the top dog can have it on the ground . And the under dog will have its head up and we keep them apart by this barrier here . There was fault in that arrangement and that is what is referred to by the Hon . Member over there . The fault was that , that arrangement of having a barrier like this , whether the underdog could now go up , the sky is a limit and the top dog could have its feet planted on the ground , on mother earth and could prefer whether that was , those were the merits perhaps , but the greatest demerits was that there was no room. That arrangement Sir , that arrangement you refer to as " Bantustanism" kept people apart like that And the fault there was no growth this way. No any room. That is the fault . Here we are together as a homeland government and the White man said people do something yourselves , get on , we can't do it alone anymore . Now Hon . Members , what it required now is how to remove this middle barrier to allow growth this way and that way . That is the fundamental question today confronting White and Black South Africans . The removal of this barrier that presents the national growth of this dimension whilst allowing the growth that way . We don't just grow that way as thin as a rake - you must go this way too . That's natural , there are people who say now let us integrate - let us remove it , we just pull like this and let people be mixed up . And those who look at numbers and count the heads they say these chaps are many and these chaps are too few and now if we let go this thing , that big number is going to overrun that small number .

Now can you give the assurance that that won't happen? If you can give that assurance then the problems of South Africa will be solved overnight . People are afraid they will be swallowed up . They speak of identity , they speak of their own nationality and so forth . Now can we the Black people who are in the majority give the assurance that we will not overrun the other people? If the Lebowa can find a solution, if Lebowa can give assurance then Lebowa will have been the pioneer in a new South Africa . Do we need to be defeated - and talk as the whole position is hopeless , it can't

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be done? I am not of that turn of mind . We can give that assurance if we want . If our scale of values will move away from colour . If we will get away from ethnic thinking and tribal thinking , if we can think as human beings pure and simple , regardless of colour , regardless of ethnic connections . But we are able to do that . These are concessions , Mr Speaker . There are concessions already leading towards the removal already leading towards the removal of some irratations . You have seen yourselves the confessions made , however , perhaps insignificent from the point of view of other people . You have the conce sions made in the sport arena now , in public libraries in parks , in hotels and few other places . These are not rights . We want rights and not concessions but oncessions Concessions . But the point is , these things are there . Now those who now critize " Bantustanism" what is your answer? Can we give the assurance that is required that we will not overrun any man? I suggest that the Black people everywhere must answer this question because there is fear in the hearts of White South Africans on this very point . And now I want to come to the last point Mr Speaker , Sir . You know history teaches us a lot of good things . We are not the only people who were ever conquered . There are other nations which were conquered . Once upon a time the Roman Empire stretched right through Europe . Oh yes and what happened? The Romans regarded the White people of the time in Europe as Barbarians . And they said the Barbarians all along just as you hear it today when we are referred to as Blacks , we are primitive and other words are used . It is infra dig for me to use the words now- What the Barbarians , but the Romans gave the land back to the Barbarians . The Barbarians in rance , England . The Barbarians in Germany , Norway , they all have their lands back . They are not Barbarians now , are they? Oh! they are highly civilized folks . The British did the same . They conquered India and other places and now they returned the land back to the Indians . They have returned Tanganyika , they returned Ghana , Gold Coast . They have returned all those places , Zambia , Nyasaland and the rest . They are back to their owners . And now the British conquered the Dutch people the Boers in this Free State . They returned the lot , Transvaal , Free State , Natal , Cape of Good Hope . They just returned it back to them . And the strange thing is , the British gave the Afrikaner not only the land but also all the blacks . And now the Afrikaners has got the land and us . And we are the owners of this land . They were helped by the British to conquer us . And now why, c can't they return the land back to us? I am making this point very clear , Mr Speaker . Instead of returning the land back to the owners they started now parceling the land out . They are giving it to so and so , instead of returning it back to us . And now, Mr Speaker , Sir , with your permission I must test the fact . Now this is realistic , it is realistically political reputation that 13% of the land is supposed to be for the Blacks , for the 20 million people . And of that 13% I think Lebowa got about 1,8% and 78% of the land remains with them . And now it is justice that we are demanding from South Africa " Return the land to its original inhabitants . " And I can give assurance that whereas it is our attitude that we accept the White man , he is the White African now They refuse to be called Europeans . They are Africans . I think they are perfectly right born and brought up here . They are the White Africans and they have Black Africans but White and Black must share the burdens , and the blessings of this land . I think that is where Lebowa stands a proper share of things , we don't want domination . We don't want oppression of one group over the others at all , we just want a proper trust land should be handed back to their owners . And I am very pleased to hear from the member of the House that if we get the land we should be able to sell the land to individuals

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and to groups and so forth so that they can take care of the land properly . Now in conclusion , Mr Speaker , I want to say that we are out for a South Afric which belongs to all of us . And I want to agree with Nkadimeng when he thinks that "Bantustanism" has not been successful . By that the Honourable , you are posing a challenge to us what must we do to improve matters because apartheid or separate development does not give us all the answers . It gives us some of the answers we want . Do you need to attack the Chief Minister , Phatudi ? Do you need to attack the Prime Minister anywhere else? You will not solve " Bantustanism" ; by co-operation and by high degree of negotiation and diplomacy . And to come back to the last point by respect and honour which was raised here , the Honourable Member from Nebo , Kgoši Masemola . If there are any questions I have not answered , I will look up the notes again and I'll probably answer them some time in future . Mr Speaker , Sir ! THE MINISTER OF WORKS : Mr Speaker , I also have question which I am supposed to answer . Mr Speaker , I have questions from the member for Thabamoopo , the Hon . S.S. Mothapo . I am glad that he is in the House now. His first question says "how many students completed Electrician course at Tseke Mabooe Trade School since this course was introduced?" I don't know when it started . And I don't know how many are they , but I've tried to inquire how many students are they . I found that since the course started there were 95 of which 51 were from Lebowa . This is an answer I got . The second question "how many are still under probation ? " Duly three students had not completed the course when it was discontinued . The third question , "why is your Department no longer admitting students for this course?" From reliable sources there are a lot of applications for this course and that this prospective students are unable to look for the jobs because the state of affairs for this course is not clear . Students are no longer admitted for this course because it was no more to be offered . An approved course has now been introduced . Applicants for the new course will be admitted as vacancies occur in the Department . At the moment there are no vacancies . This is an answer from Tseke Mabooe Trade School . MR S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr Speaker , I thank the Minister of Works for the explanation that he gave to this House . But at the same time I feel I am still dissatisfied with the answers he gave , more especially those prospective students have not received clear replies as to how they can really go on . And from one source they have been promised that negotiations are being handled with the Department of Bantu ADministration and Development so that the Lebowans should attend this course at Babelegi . And it seems most of them are hanging around with the expectation that one of these days they might receive a reply . If the Minister for Works has got any answer in this connection I would be very much pleased to know .

THE MINISTER OF WORKS : Mr Speaker, I am afraid to tell people lies , a good follow up means that the Hon . Member has asked a question again . If the Hon . Member is dissatisfied of the answers given he should write down again . KGOŠI P. gone . I question which he

NKADIMENG : I thank the Honourable Speaker , though the time has am still on the item of the Chief Minister in connection with the on chieftainship . I want to criticize the members of the Board appointed to constitute the Advisory Board to the Chief Minister .

If now he being a kgoši , appointed by Pretoria and coming to solve our problems on bogoši , how are you going to do it? I am afraid with respect the Honourable the Chief Minister , the Hon . Dr. also knows that the bakgomana who are included in the very Board , are bakgomana who are similar to the

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Honourable Chief Minister . He knows two of them. You know the Chief Minister is rather right to claim the same status because he is mokgomana and he is similar to them . Through you , the Speaker , let this case be reviewed so that some of them be replaced by others . I will end here , Mr Speaker , because the time has elapsed . There is a case on "Bantustan" about which the Chief Minister spoke . Yes ! this was born by that very ostrich which has hatched . Now if this ostrich is like this it is obvious that this Legislative Assembly should give the Hon . Chief Minister a mandate to consult with other Chief Ministers like Matanzima , Mangope etc. to discuss " Bantustanism" with Pretoria . If they be allowed to see the Prime Minister and the Minister of Bantu Education and Development , Mr M.C. Botha , they should tell them that away with the policy of separate development .

THE SPEAKER : Order! You have already spoken , Honourable Member ; know why you repeat yourself .

I do not

KGOSI P. NKADIMENG : I thank the Speaker for having reminded me that the issue has been mentioned . In short the answer is majority rule at this stage . Let us plead for this type of government for Black rule won't be acceptable by them because we all want to eat . So multiracial rule is better . I think the best thing is to form the so - called local detente though it has some complications here and there . I thank the Speaker for having granted me a permission for a follow-up concerning the question of the Chief Minister "how should we do it?" THE SPEAKER : Honourable Members , beware of personal charges and abusive language for they are dikgoši according to the law which you know . When s saying that you are insulting them . You must speak with respect tomorrow . Honourable Members we have agreed on this time . Now we shall stop the discussions of the day here until the next Monday at 10h00 . Please Honourable Members , beware of Mondays because they give trouble .

THE

HOUSE

THEN ADJOURNED A T UNTIL MONDAY A T 10h00

11h00

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1977 :

MONDAY

THE 18TH APRIL .

The Sitting commences at 10h00 . The Speaker read the Prayer .

(There was no quorum and as such the Speaker requested that the bell be rung for 2 minutes ) .

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr Speaker , unless someone has not called your attention that we have no quorum , we shall go on . On this score , Mr Speaker , no one has called your attention so we go on with the discussions of the day . MR S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr Speaker , I move that these minutes be adopted as a correct record of this House . MR S.H. NKADIMENG :

I second him.

THE SPEAKER : You will pardon me the Honourable House . You cannot continue when the rules forbid you to do so . So if there is no quorum we can't continue . THE COMMISSIONER - GENERAL : In fact , Mr Speaker , if there is no one who draws your attention that there is no quorum you just go on . If somebody draws your attention then , that is according to the Rules of Procedure then you must have the bell rung and if there is no quorum then you must adjourn until the next sitting . But then in your caucus , decide that nobody should draw your attention to the fact that there is no quorum .... THE SPEAKER : That issue of quorum has been settled . You better bring other discussions . But then , we shall continue with the second item . MR S.S. MOTHAPO :

Mr Speaker , I move that the minutes be adopted .

MR S.H. NKADIMENG : THE SPEAKER : 11th item .

Seconded!

The 3rd , 4th , 5th , 6th , 7th , 8th , and 9th , 10th as well as the

MR L.C. MOTHIBA : Mr Speaker , I wish to give a notice that I'll move a motion in five days from today in connection with elections . MR M.W. KGATLA : THE SPEAKER :

Seconded!

Item 12 ( 1 ) .

MR S.S. MOTHAPO : When we adjourned on Friday , Mr Speaker , the Honourable Members of this House had already requested you to make some follow-ups on questions which are put to the honourable the Chief Minister . Further , Mr Speaker , the Honourable the Chief Minister , made a promise that if there ner questions he will answer them . I believe this is just a corare some rect procedure . THE SPEAKER: The day for questions is tomorrow. So you may write down your questions and bring them along tomorrow . Follow-ups are also allowed . So Mr Kgatla, you may continue with your follow- up .

MR M.W. KGATLA : Mr Speaker , I am going to make a follow up on the allocation of money to different departments . The Chief Minister was giving us an answer on percentages , but these differed much with what I was trying to prove in this House . I went to his department and asked him expecting his department to work out the percentages for me , allocated for departments from the main budget . Accordingly, they differed no where with the percentages that I gave to this House . And I did illustrate that 75 , 76 , 76 , 78 , 77 , 78 , there is a decline in the allocation of money to Education , despite the fact that the two of the estimates of the last year have been allocated over R3 - million in Education . The money put forth , means we have R3 -million more than last it is on year . If you look down here they say " vermeerdering" /increase page 28 of estimates . But the idea is that , the more we get money from the Central Government and being allocated , the more we get less money in Education less than the previous two years . When you look at what we have this year viz . 24,4% , whereas 24,8 % of the previous years , they are basically the same . If you look at the whole Education vote - R16 899 200 , almost R16 646 300 is for salaries . The man running the Department of Education is left with only R1 -million and a few thousands to create new grants , buy desks , books and to do everything with this sum. On top of that he is still have to pay rand for rand for the erection of schools . That is why a quite number of schools are not completed for many years because there is no money in the Department of Education . When you turn to page 4 item E. of the Chief Minister's Vote you find that the Chief Minister has R2 220 400 for miscelleneous . These people do not know that miscelleneous is a dangerous money . In his speech he has never ever told us exactly what he is doing with this mescelleneous money because he tells us that R190 000 is reserved to help the communities and the tribal authorities . Concerning the rest , we know nothing . Last year he had R1 875 500 and there is an increment of R345 900 and we are not told what the use of this money is . On realising this , the House will have a request , when we are on item by item , that this sum of R2 221 400 be allocated into Education fascilities for the sake of our children . Another follow-up is to ask whether we could be given the money collected by different constituencies in Lebowa . We learn that Bochum gave us R33 412 - there are two tribes . Sekhukhune brought R12 260 - how many are they? Thabamoopo collected R39 286 - how many tribes are there . Mapulaneng collected R17 609 how many tribes are there? I learn there are 8 tribal authorities there . Bolobedu with two tribes collected R26 982. Sekgosese with 5 tribes collected R27 706. Seshego with 4 tribes - R35 886. My fellow men , I have learned that this money of R12 210 000 asked by the Chief Minister goes to the communities which have collected nothing . We help them on education , health and farming . Even though the kgoši has 200 people and supposed to pay Lebowa tax , that amount can only pay a portion of the Chief Minister's salary . So , you can simply deduce from this government that it is one sided . We are pleading that whenever there is allocation of money , he should read all these requirements . If one looks at Mokerong with 11 tribes and their collection of R93 802 one can simply wonder at the whole set up . One other thing , Mr Speaker , concerns the question on salaries of the members of parliament , which I have asked the Chief Minister long ago without any response . I don't know what and how to tell the people of kgothama and Senthumule about these salaries . It is our duty to find out and tell the people exactly what is happening .

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THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker and the Honourable Members , the last speaker is misleading this House badly. May I put the record straight ! Minister of Education will deal with educational occasion when he discusses his vote . But let me just state it briefly that the increase in the allocation of education is very very substantial . I know the Department of Education will give you the finest details , but I just want to give you these indications . In addition to the R3-million which you see in the estimates , the honourable Members should bare in mind that the Department of Public Works has allocated R776 000 for the educational purposes the building of education establishment . The Department of Education will tell you which buildings will utilise that money for educational purposes . My own section is providing for the profident fund and for the pensions of teachers , etc. of the money allocated for pensions , etc. + R1 750 000 is for teachers salaries . If you add up those three items together you will find that the Education vote is R5 490 000. It is more than any other vote of any other department . I have an idea that the Department of Public Works has also to provide vehicles and so forth for the Department of Education . If that is to be taken into account, the allocation will rise over higher than the R5-million plus . I am not here to explain how these funds are utilised by the departments concerned . That will be answered by themselves . I am only trying to throw a light on the whole vote itself . The truth is , Mr Speaker, that we have increased the Education vote substantially in the circumstances . In my reply I indicated that we do want more money for Educational services . And I said in the circumstances , the people of Lebowa at the last conference of the Ruling Party, asked the government to increase , to lay a special education levy specially for education in order to meet our growing needs in education . I found that submission is very reasonable . And it will mean that the Cabinet will have to frame up the law to meet the wishes of the Lebowa people in this regard . I have explained why, Mr Speaker , the percentages are not the best criterion for assessing the allocation to the various votes . The more you have portfolios the more the percentages will have to go down . It doesn't matter what you do ; that is an Arithmetical law. If you have two portfolios each will have 50%. If you have hundreds portfolios each will have 1%. But the amount of money , Mr Speaker , doesn't mean small money , that 1% may be R20 million depending on the pull with which you are dealing ; so that the honourable Members should bear in mind that the percentages are not a reliable yardstick as to qualifying of the allocations . So , they shouldn't be terrified when they see the percentages going down . But I do want to emphasise that they should look at the money itself . As I have indicated , the money itself shows that the Education vote is more than any of the votes such as you have before you . About the item on miscelleneous , the details regarding this item are given . I referred to page 7. The item is analysed and accounted for item by item . Mr Speaker , there is item E. Miscelleneous expenses , and there you have it . Item ( 1 ) Office equipment , mechanical labour serving devices . Item ( 2 ) is given there too . Item (3 ) to item ( 8 ) are also given . Item 8 ( iii ) and other sub- items are all accounted for and showing the relative expenditure connected with each . And yet the Honourable Member for Bolobedu , Mr Kgatla says that they are not accounted for . I maintain it is my contention that if close study is made on these items , it would be satisfactory that they are accounted for . You can see for yourself where the R2 221 400 comes from. It is indeed my way of looking at the item by item that they are accounted for. I can add, Mr Speaker , that this procedure is applicable to all other items . You find on item E or F as the case may be and then a little forward you find it all explained in details from one vote to another . You will find

that the

Je polic - ple is followed

Financial scistance to tribal , and community authorities is provided for under iter and in no other item . This is given as R190 000. this is the only source where tribal and community authorities come from . The item E has nothing to do with the services provided for under F. And now I am satisfied that the Honourable Members will make that distinction clear between the two items . Regarding what the Honourable Member has been asking for the details as to how many tribes and how much they contributed , I have asked my section to go into that and as soon as the information is available I'll put it before this House . I understand , from my section that the Lebowa Tax the figures as required cannot be given to the Honourable Mr Kgatla for the following reasons : (a) Tax may be paid to any receiver of revenue in Lebowa. That is any magistrate's office . (b) Receipts are issued for this tax but nothing is written on the receipt as to what tribe the person is belonging to . So , Mr Speakeer , Sir , I have to say that the answer which the Honourable Member , Mr Kgatla required is now given in this sheet . THE SPEAKER: Honourable Member , I just want to remind you that the second reading is finished in the 15 hours which has elapsed . If there are still members who want to put forth some more questions to the Chief Minister , they may do so in writing and send that to him. According to the procedure the House will now move into the Committee Stage . THE COMMITTEE STAGE .

A CHAIRMAN - Honourable Members . the House is now in Committee . we now turn to Vote 1. We are on Vote 1'a ) I suppose .

Shall

MR L.C. MOTHIBA: I just want a clarification here . There is a decrease of R19 500 on the advertisements and publications . Could we just get a clarification there , Mr Chairman please? We know that this time things are becoming more expensive ; we just want to find out what this decrease is due to . THE CHIEF MINISTER : The answer is really in the last year estimates . We put the figure at R92 000. That was an estimated figure . In actual fact what was spent was less and in the light of experience the present estimates reduced the figure from R92 000 because we didn't spend as much as R92 000 last year . It is now estimated that we will be able to meet our commitments if we reduce it by R19 500 . MR S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr Chairman , still on E , I am a little bit dissatisfied with the answer given by the honourable the Chief Minister because of one good reason . We still have some Hansards that we have not yet received . And I believe that if this other money was chanelled to the printing of the Hansards we would have got everything now. Up to now , Mr Speaker , I would like to ...... ( INTERJECTION ) . MR L.C. MOTHIBA : Point of Order , Mr Chairman . The Honourable Member is out of order because on Vote ( g ) page 6 sub-pragraph ( b ) ( iv ) , that is where the Hansard is dealt with . The Honourable Member's question should come up there because here on ( b ) is the general printing , advertisements and publications as a whole . And , Mr Chairman , if you look at all department you will find that the sub- head of ( d ) of printing , advertisements and publications has been decreased in all departments . And to my knowledge ,

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it is not all the department that deal with the Hansard . until we get to that item .

So he can hang on

MR S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr Chairman , if you rule me down I'll accept it . But the fact remains we are dealing with Publications and Hansard which are parts of publication . If this question is answered here , obviously when we get to the Hansard I won't repeat the same question . MR M.W. KGATLA : Through you , Mr Chairman , I want to find out from the Chief Minister concerning ( g ) ( ii ) . Last year and the previous years this item have read something of this type : " Presents and refreshments to chiefs and headmen . " I queried it and I realise now that after realising my query, it reads as follows : "Presents and refreshments to chiefs , headmen and followers etc. " What I want to know is that I have realised that the Chief Minister has increased this by R500 . Does this suggest that you are going to give the headmen and the followers of the chiefs presents and refreshments? THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman , if I had my own way I would not answer a naïve question . It is very clear that we didn't come out with the R500 last year . Experience has taught us that we have an increasing number of visitors to cope with here . And it is a well known custom of this territory that when kgoši comes , he doesn't come with five people . I give an interview to a kgoši to come alone . More often , my office is too small to accommodate 50 to 60 of the members of the kgoši . If there are two dikgoši I sometimes wonder whether to bring them into this hall . And I have no intention at all nor the government had the intention of not receiving this magoši traditionally . When they come here they are our visitors - visitors of the government and we give them food . In fact I doubt whether we shall be able And I to raise that sum of R1 000 with the rising price of foodstuffs . won't be surprised if next year this Honourable House will be asked to consider a higher figure than a thousand rand . This is not new news to this Honourable House . It is well known , Mr Chairman . MR M.W. KGATLA : Mr Chairman , may I make a follow- up . Is this R1 000 given out when the magosis and headmen as well as their followers etc. are attending quarterly meetings or regional meetings ? I realised that there is no provision in Justice vote for refreshments when they have to go to such meetings as such . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman , where does this Honourable Member think the money comes from? They get the money at the regional offices . Don't they? It comes from the coffers of this government , Mr Chairman . MR S.P. KWAKWA : Mr Chairman , I just want to ask this simple question . I would like to know the nature of presents that are given to the chiefs and headmen . I am rather nervous that if we have to give presents they may in future cause some dissatisfaction. I am perfectly satisfied with the refreshments but just presents that's what I want to be sure of. MR L.C. MOTHIBA : Mr Chairman , I know this part . I want to help before the Chief Minister can round up later . What normally happens , Mr Chairman , is that if a chief has to be appointed , this department normally buys a chair an office chair and some watches , big watches , big office watch and some certain things . Sometimes they buy some cases to carry books . That is as far as I know, Mr Chairman . MR S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr Chairman , last year we had R46 000 set aside for printing and this year we have a nominal amount of R100 , whereas in actual fact some of the Hansards that we were supposed to have received during

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the course of this year have not yet reached us . Chief Minister enlighten this House?

Shall the Honourable the

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman , and the Honourable Members , it is actually true what the Honourable Member has asked . In the past we hired people to do the job . But now we do the Hansard ourselves . So the R46 000 which goes for the Hansard is added to the R42 000 that goes to printing in things like that and together they constitute the sum of R68 400. So , we are now responsible for our own Hansard , and the reason why we have that nominal sum of R100 is just that if we have got to close that item completely we must go to the treasury and that takes a lot of protocol . That is the reason why there is a difference in the allocations , Mr Chairman , Sir ! MR S.S. there a because besides now?

MOTHAPO : Mr Chairman , if publications are made by us here , why is delay? Previously we would understand that the Hansard could delay it was done by a certain company and they do have some commitments our own publications . Could we just know what causes this delay

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman , here I may give a part of the answer as the other part will have to come from my department . You see , the thing is that we are starting to have the responsibility of the Hansard . In the past we hired the Lubbe Recordings Proprictor Ltd. If there is a delay, this may be caused perhaps in the transition . But I will refer my section for a detailed answer . KGOŠI T.J. MOTHAPO : On this same issue of the publication of the Hansard , I foresee a danger . We don't have a section in this Parliament which deals with all these things . If the Secretary of the Assembly can ask secretaries to print these things in September , perhaps the secretaries can say that they don't have money . They will wait until the estimates are revised . Perhaps he may wait for November or December . We are going to get the Hansard of 1977 in 1978 June or so . I understand , we took this section last year but even today we don't have those things . What exactly delays these Hansards is money and nothing else . I should think the Secretary of the Assembly and the secretary of the department don't agree in certain terms . That's why the Hansards are delayed . Maybe the Hansard section or the Assembly section doesn't have enough staff . The man responsible is the secretary of the department because he doesn't hire enough staff . That is why I say there is some misunderstandings between the secretary of the department and the secretary of the Assembly . Therefore , this section must be separated from the department and be autonomous from it . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman , I don't want to spend more time of this House on speculations of what might be the trouble . By identification of the cause of delay it will be necessary to increase manpower , to give funds or to do something else , then the remedy will be found . Mr Chairman , it is according to the rules of this House that the people who cannot answer for themselves should not be pledged into these things . If there is anybody who must be faced it must be myself and not secretaries etc. Mr Chairman , I promise that this matter will be dealt with confidence and the results will be announced . MR M.W. KGATLA : Mr Chairman , this problem of Hansard , gives us a great concern and we have to deal with it conscienceously to get a remedy . This House is owing the Legislative Assembly and the people of Lebowa , the history of the Hansards of 1972. That is why this is causing a problem because when we come to the parliament there is nowhere to refer as there are no Hansards .

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I didn't in fact ask the Hansard section why the publication of une Hansard of last year is not yet available . I should think the problem is money as Kgoši Mothapo has put it . To my disposal of this matter is that Hansards have been printed . Only the green coverage is not available So what causes a delay? Only that . Probably there was no money to go and buy the paper for the cover .

KGOŠI M.M. MATLALA: When we were at Cape Town a day before , we had a chance to visit the publication of this Hansard and see how it is compiled and published by the people hired . It is a pity I cannot explain all the details because these are in the hands of the people concerned . They are the people to look after the whole matter . When the Chief Minister says that this matter will be dealt with confidence , he says so because we have already given this to him. We have discussed how this matter should be treated . I should believe that when he has explained all the details concerning this matter , there will be none who will be dissatisfied about the publication of the Hansards . MR E.M. MALOMA: I just want to know about the presents we give to our magoši and headmen . How many headmen do get these presents here in Lebowa? If you look at the whole Lebowa , Mr Chairman , you will realise that there are many headmen with big villages who don't receive any of these presents . That is the reason why there is no money here in Lebowa . In Sekhukhuneland we have many headmen with large communities , who are reluctant to pay Lebowa tax because they do not get paid ; they do not see any benefit of having such communities . How many of these headmen do get the presents? MR L.C. MOTHIBA : Mr Chairman , as far as I know, these are allowances paid to the magosis and the headmen when they go for official work , either when they are called by the magistrate or they have attended regional authority meetings or something of that sort . These are the allowances that are payable to headmen at home i.e. the difference between allowances which are payable under this sub- head and the salaries or allowances to chiefs viz . stipends . As far as I understand , the question put forth by the Honourable Member refers to those headmen who are at home , who must get something monthly . But if, in this constituency , when a headman goes to the magistrate office and does not get allowances , well , that is a different question . But this question in a way , refers to the headmen who goes to the magistrate office and never get paid . To come to the number of headmen , this will depend on how many do go to the magistrate office on an official duty . That is how I see it Mr Chairman . MR E.M. MALOMA: Mr Chairman , it is a pity that the Honourable Mr Mothiba is trying to answer the question which he does not know. I will be pleased if he can speak exactly what he knows when he is trying to answer my questions . I was speaking in terms of allowances and not monthly salaries of the headmen of a certain village . I am also referring to my own village because I don't know that .

KGOŠI M.M. MATLALA : I am not satisfied that when a kgoši or a headman goes to the magistrate he should be paid . If it so , I am starting to hear this today . If you go to the magistrate as a kgoši with your headmen , that is the responsibility of your community . There is a vote of kgoši and his headmen for transport . The magistrate pays nothing to the kgoši . The money is in the hands of the community if the kgoši goes to the magistrate office .

13

KOOSI M.E. MOCASHOA : Mr Chairman , the Honourable Mr Maloma asks this quest.on because there are several headmen at Sekhukhuneland who are not cared for by the Lebowa though they visit the magistrates to help Lebowa. There are those who are doing this help whole heartedly and independently like Sekele , Senamela and others . Now , the question is : what do you do about these people? THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman , I am pleased that this matter has now being brought up . But it is brought in an unfortunate manner . It appears that there should be a motion to debate this matter . I am not sure but I must remind this House that we have only three headmen according to our records . It is not my doing; I must tell this Honourable House . We enherit the situation . I don't know how it has started but the fact is there are three appointed headmen in Sekgosese district : the Pheeha , Phooko and Raphahlelo . As far as I know about these headmen , they are independent ; they are not subject to the authorities and jurisdiction of a kgoši . These three draw stipend like kgoši . So if there are cases similar to this in any part of Lebowa and not specifically and only at Sekhukhuneland it would be fair to consider them in a proper motivated fashion . That is why Mr Chairman , I feel that if this matter is to receive full attention of the honourable House , it should come in a form of a motion and be debated and then a real decision be taken at the Legislative Assembly and then the government of course will carry out whatever should be done in this regard . I can only add and this is just by way of comment that this is a delicate matter because there are headmen who fall directly under the magošis . I am not sure whether the intention of this House is to bundle up all their headmen and give them a status of these three . Nevertheless , I just want to say in conclusion that I would think that this matter of independent headmen, if I may use this word , independent , should come in a form of a motion properly motivated so that we can have the decision of this Legislative Assembly .

KGOSI M. MALEKANE : We should not confuse this matter as two issues . This matter has been said for quite a year in this parliament . The money available is that of the kgoši and the headmen who are known officially . Mr Maloma should have brought this matter in a form of a motion to plead for the other headmen in the Sekhukhuneland . That motion would be discussed and weighed by this House . MR E.M. MALOMA : Thank you , Mr Chairman . I am just giving a notice now that I will bring my motion concerning this matter tomorrow . MR L.C. MOTHIBA : Point of order , Mr Chairman . According to the Rules of Procedure , notices of motions can only be given in the morning and not in this time unless it is an urgent motion in which case only a Minister can move an urgent motion .

MR S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr Chairman , I will like to ask you . Do you think the two And are related because this is for those who are paid ; that is the motion . I will like to ask the question on those who are being said already . THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable Member , we talked about the headmen . He is going to move a motion on headmen it is all the same . We are going to discuss all that . KGCT 1 J. magor

THAPO :

Mr Chairman , I have spoken about the salaries of the that these are just seats given to them. I am still repeating

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that . To my point of view, the magoši are ruling far more better than the magistrates or any other government of the Whites . In the magošis regime , it is once in five years time that a man has killed another or assaulted him . But what they are earning is disgracing . We should look at their importance as the people who bring peace . When you look at the magistrate's or any other party's ruling you will find that , within a short period there is murder and other casualties of knives and dangerous weapons . The kgoši doesn't receive any pay though he has brought about peace and harmony . He who makes this government to become a government doesn't get any remuneration . This money paid to magoši is too small ; it should be increased by R17 000 .

MR L.C. MOTHIBA : On a point of order , Mr Chairman . The Honourable Member has Rule 143 of our Rules of Procedure , if he wants to amend in order to increase or decrease the amount . And Rule 144 says it will be taken in a form of a motion . I was just guiding him that if he has any suggestion to make or any intention , he could move a motion to that effect . KGOŠI T.J. MOTHAPO : I didn't say that I am moving a motion when I say it should be increased now. I am not sick . MR L.C. MOTHIBA : Point of order , Mr Chairman , then the Honourable Member is out of order because Rule 143 says : "An amendment to increase a head , whether in respect of any sub- item , item or subhead or of the head itself , shall be ruled out of order by the Speaker and when more than one reduction is moved in any vote or item of a vote , the question shall first be proposed from the chair on the largest reduction . " 144 says : " Save as prescribe in paragraph ( 2 ) of the Rule , an amendment to any head of expenditure to reduce the sum allotted thereto in respect of any item therein may be moved by any member and shall take the form of a motion . " If he doesn't come in a form of a motion then he is out of order . And that is why, Mr Chairman , I was trying to indicate when he mentioned R17 000 and so on that if he could make a motion to bring that to the notice of this House otherwise would say he is out of order . And if he is not of the intention to bring a motion , Mr Chairman , I would move that he is out of order and he should be ruled out . THE HONOURABLE KGOŠI T.J. MOTHAPO IS RULED OUT )

KGOŠI M. MALEKANA : Mr Chairman , I was just about to second Kgoši Mothapo Seeing that he will move his motion tomorrow , I will do that also . KGOŠI M.M. MATLALA : Mr Chairman , I am just asking that if the motion on the salary of dikgoŝi is to be moved , what about the increment of the royal allowances? It seems to me that you are ignoring this fact and you are busy with the other allowances so that when we refer the salaries to Pretoria we should have a clear vision about the allowances . THE CHAIRMAN : Thank you, Honourable Member . I think when it comes to this we have to suspend it because the royal allowances are still under consideration . MR L.C. MOTHIBA : It might help to refer to Rule 137 in as far as the debate of this schedule is concerned . I will start somewhere in the middle : "On the consideration of a schedule the Deputy Speaker shall call the tittle of each head of expenditure in turn and shall propose the question that the sum of R ......for head stand part of schedule , " and unless an amendment is proposed under the provisions of Rule 140 , a debate may take place on that question . Any such debate shall be confined to the policy of the service for which the money is to be provided and shall not deal with the details

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of any subitem , item or subhead but may refer to the details of revenues or funds for which that service is responsible . " I therefore , Mr Chairman wish to request that the chair guides the debate of this House to be confined to the policy of the services of which the money is to be provided for . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman and Honourable Members , I think what the last speaker has said is in keeping with the rules , but I thought in order to sort out this problem of royal allowances I think a question should be put . There should be a question to be answered in the question time tomorrow about this matter . I have one or two questions already on my desk here . Perhaps that can be one of them. MR M.W. KGATLA : I just want to make sure whether the people's names which are appearing here to work with the Chief Minister are mixed with the seconded officials or are they only of Lebowa people . THE CHIEF MINISTER : tomorrow.

These are the statistics .

So , I'll bring the answer

MR L.C. MOTHIBA : Mr Chairman , let me refer you to Rule 134 : "When the Legislative Assembly is in Committee of Supply the votes falling under the different mininsterial portfolios shall be dealt with consecutively . " (THE HOUSE HAD TO ACCEPT THE WHOLE VOTE OF THE CHIEF MINISTER )

THE CHAIRMAN : speech .

The Honourable Minister for the Interior will now deliver his

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr Chairman , Honourable members of the Legislative Assembly and all present : Once again it gives me pleasure to present to you the Budget of my Department for the ensuing fiscal year and a resume of its activities during the past year . My budget for the current financial year amounts to R829 000 and is constituted as follows :

A. B. C. Ꭰ. E. F. G.

Salaries , Wages and Allowance .. Subsistence and Transport .... Postal , Telegraph and Telephone services ... Printing , Stationery , Advertisements and Publications Miscellaneous Expenditure ... Settlement of the North Sotho's Training and Orientation of industrial workers .. TOTAL

R292 R 33 R 43 R166 R259 R 23 R 11

200 900 500 200 200 000 000

R829 000

Mr Chairman , allow me to give , in brief , a review of the activities of my Department . 1.

Section

Labour and Population:

During 1976 , 78 664 and 5 059 females were placed in employment outside Lebowa . During the same period a total of 18 262 persons were engaged in employment within Lebowa . of this number 2 288 were foreigners employed in the mines .

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Last year I mentioned that approximately 40% of the total labour force working on mines within Lebowa consists of immigrants from other homelands . This figure has now dropped to 32%. It is the Department's aim to eventually have as near as possible to a 100% Lebowan working force on the mines in the Homeland . Mr Chairman , at this stage I must reiterate that to attain this goal our people should be exhorted to take up employment in Lebowa and so keep their earnings circulating in the Homeland . Wages on the mines compare favourably with those paid in the cities but with the added perks of free board and lodging , medical services , etc. Lebowa is rich in mineral deposits which still remain untapped . More than 40 prospecting permissions have been granted to the private sector and the Bantu Mining Corporation is itself engaged in prospecting on the farms Maandagshoek , Mooihoek , Drenthe and Rooiboschbaak . On the farm Mooihoek the Dilokong Chrome mine has commenced operations . More and more job opportunities will come into being . This argurs well for the future of Lebowa provided the people overcome their antipathy towards underground mining and are prepared to work . Mr Chairman , I might also mention that an American firm Dennis More has been engaged to make a complete survey of the potential in Lebowa insofar as mineral deposits are concerned .

2.

Orientation Centre

Mr Chairman , this centre has been functioning for the past two years and as its name implies it orientates the inexperienced worker in certain fields of industry . Tests are done and reports submitted to the employer regarding the employee's educability , intelligence and aptitude in languages , mechanics and arithmetic . The centre has gone from strength and is proving to be of considerable value to employers and employee's alike . During 1976 , 2 374 tests were done . My Department took over the registration of births , marriages and deaths as from the 1st January , 1977. Prior to this date only the late registration of births was administered by my Department . of the 30 878 births registered during 1976 , 27 833 were late registrations . These figures show that there is obviously a large backlog to be diminished and I would appeal to members of this honourable House to impress upon the people the desirability of registering births timeously , i.e. within 12 months of the occurrence . There were 1 352 marriages and 5 009 deaths registered in Lebowa during 1976. 17 916 certificates were applied for during the year under review . One by- election was to have been held this year in the district of Mokerong but as only one candidate was nominated he was returned unopposed . Mr Chairman , we now come to land and kindred matters . There is still a steady increase in the number of business and other sites applied for the following were approved General dealers 103 , Restaurants 174 , Wood and Coal 71 , Butcheries 13 , Beerhalls and Depots 33 , Bottle Stores 55 , and others such as brick-yards , scrap -yards , garages , etc. 166 . There are 15 more school sites and 8 more church sites bringing the totals to 775 and 668 respectively .

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Mr Chairman , the following statistics are indicative of the steady development taking place in the towns in Lebowa. There is now a total of 156 businesses operating in the towns . The breakdown is - General dealers 30 ; Restaurants 28 ; Butcheries 13 ; Supermarkets 3 ; Hotels 2 completed and 5 in the planning and building stage ; Bottle stores 11 built and in planning and building stage ; Garages 5 ; Wood and Coal yards 14 ; Funeral undertakers 4 ; Market stalls 10 ; Bookshops 3 ; Dairies 4; Tailors 5 ; Cinemas in planning stage 2 ; Hairdressers 4; and Dry Cleaners 4. Schools have increased by 5 in the townships to a total of 60 and approved church sites by 29 to a total of 121 . Town councils have been instituted in Seshego , Mankweng , Ga-Kgapane and Lenyenye . In Mahwelereng an election has already been held and it is expected that the Town Council will be instituted shortly . Preparations are afoot for elections in Motetema and Moganyaka . In Sebayeng the final approval of the Department of Bantu Administration and Development is awaited . Approval is being sought for the excising of Namakgale township from the area under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Agriculture . Advisory Boards are functioning in the following towns : -

(a) (b ) (c) (d ) (e) ( f) (g)

Elandsdoorn Lebowakgomo Sebayeng Hlogotlou Shatale Motetema Moganyaka .

The Advisory Board is the forerunner of the township Council and ceases to function as soon as a council is established . The function of the Board is mainly to act as liaison between the people and the superintendent or higher authority . It is the mouthpiece for the residents o voice their complaints and suggestions . It assists with the orderly development of the community and keeping the town tidy and clean . It also assists in enlightening the community insofar as township regulations are concerned . The tempo of development in Lebowakgomo has been slow due to lack of funds and inflationary trend . 452 houses are occupied with a further 155 in various stages of completion . However , an amount of R1 million has been raised for the erection of houses in various towns . We are fully aware that R1 million is not nearly sufficient and I suggest that the people be called upon to endeavour to raise loans through available sources and build privately . There are 10 factories fully established in Lebowa . 8 of these are in Seshego and 2 in Mapulaneng . Between them these factories manufacture a wide variety of goods ranging from Prefabricated houses , canvas and leather goods , mattresses , T.V. Sets and radios , to ivory trinkets and fruit juices . Well over a 100 citizens have found employement in these ventures .

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With effect from the 1st July 1977 Lebowa will have its own Road Transportation Board . The Chairman and the members of the Board are undergoing training at present . They attend all meetings of the Republican Transportation Board , as observers , wherever these meetings are held . Apart from these , two of our senior officials are at present in Pretoria being trained for the task that lies ahead . When this Board starts functioning it will be responsible for all road transportation matters in Lebowa . All current road transportation certificates will remain in force until their present expiry date . All renewals and new applications will be considered by our Board after 1-7-77 . Mr Chairman , while on the question of transport I might mention that high level discussions were held with the South African Railways concerning road and rail transport to points in Lebowa . As a result of these negotiation extra express trains ( 1st and 2nd class only ) were placed in service between Johannesburg and Pietersburg with great success . Sleeping accommodation is available and can be booked ahead . Seats on buses can now also be reserved . Mr Chairman , Railways administration has requested that the people be exhorted not to take exessive luggage or livestock with them in the carriages . These should be sent per goods train . With the assistance of the Lebowa Development Corporation two advertising firms will erect bus shelters at various stops in Lebowa . Mr Chairman, as my department is mainly involved , I wish to put this Honourable House in the picture insofar as envisaged development on the part of the Lebowa Development Corporation is concerned . The L.D.C. will spend some R4,5 million on development projects during the current financial year . this does not include capital that will be invested by the Economic Development Corporation in industrial development on the agency basis . An amount of R550 000 has been set aside for the provision of business loans to prospective entrepeneurs . A new concept in financing of various projects will be introduced this year by the L.D.C. It will call upon the public of Lebowa to participate via shareholding , in the establishment of three new bakeries for which purpose public companies will be created . The Lebowa public and the L.D.C. will be the only shareholders and a total investment of R1,7 million is envisaged .

THE CHAIRMAN :

On this note the House will adjourn until 2.15 this afternoon . LUNCH

THE CHAIRMAN : The Minister of the Interior will proceed with his Policy and Budget Speech . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : The tripartite company will still play an important role in development , but it is foreseen that this system will be utilised mostly for high risk projects and those that need large amounts of capital . Where economically justified the L.D.C. will erect modern business centres and expansion of the L.D.C.'s wholesale activities on the " cash carry" basis is also planned . The establishment of a furniture factory and retail furniture outlets is also high on the list of priorities . The L.D.C. building division which employs about 350 people is gearing itself to tackle many building projects in Lebowa . This division pays particular attention to the training of Lebowa citizens in the building trade .

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Mr Chairman , at this juncture I feel I must repeat that development and job opportunity is by no means lacking in Lebowa . It is our bounden duty as leaders to instil in the people a true sense of values , a deeper sense of responsibility which in itself will motivate them to work harder and thus bring about an elevation of the standard of living in the country. My department supplies all the stationery and office furniture required and in the past year furniture to the value of R31 700 was purchased and still all requirements have not been met . Machines to the value of R12 000 were purchased and printing to the value of R135 000 was done . An amount of R86 700 was expended on stationery. During the course of this session , Mr Chairman , a report of the Public Service Commission's activities will be tabled . Turning to staff matters , Mr Chairman , it will be observed that the number of posts on the establishment of my department has decreased . This is due to the fact that the sections dealing with Welfare , Pensions and clinics were transferred to the Department of Health as from the 1st of April 1976 . There are now 146 prescribed posts and 121 non- prescribed posts in my Department . There are now 8 seconded officials as compared to 13 last year . The co-operation between the seconded officials and the Lebowa officials progresses on an extremely sound basis and good relations exist . Mr Chairman , this concludes my resume of the activities of my Department which , as you know , is purely administrative . Mr Chairman , I accordingly move the adoption of my department's vote . Thank you, Mr Chairman . THE CHAIRMAN : The speech has been read , Honourable Members , and the documents of it has been distributed to you . It is now your chance to discuss the principles and merits of this speech . Please be relevant and do not repeat . MR M.W. KGATLA: Mr Chairman , I have about three questions . According to your Policy Speech , Lebowa has borrowed R1 -million that has been raised to build houses in various townships in Lebowa . I am sure you are aware of the backlog in the housing in all the townships for all these years . You personally has said that R1 - million is not enough to add enough in towns . After having passed a Bill in this house last year that we can be able to make loans , what made you just to go and borrow R1 million for the sake of building houses and why not about R3 of R4 millions for this project which is lacking behind all these years? I will accept a naïve reply on this question . And I will like to know how many houses you are going to build in each and every township , because we have got a mandate from our people that this time you must come home with the number of houses you are going to erect with this R1 million . In one of your public addresses when you were opening a bottle store at Kgapane , you told my people that there won't be a question because you were going to utilise that R1 million to build their houses . That's why I need a proper answer through you , Mr Chairman .

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The Honourable the Minister of Works has told me that the moment you give him money he will do his best to put up all those houses in his financial year . You have been telling us that you went over to an American firm to ask them to come and survey the mineral , the mining potentials of Lebowa . My simple question is : don't we have such experts in South Africa that could have done this job instead of getting over to America? If you could have gone to Pretoria and talked so well with the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development and Bantu Education and gave him this problem , he could have told his men to come and do this job . We are told year by year that you will go out and get some experts to come and make a survey here , but you can't even devote your time in using these Europeans in this country. You go as far as America to ask people to survey these telecommunications in the Lebowa area while we are having these men right here in South Africa . If you are not careful you will antagonize Lebowa with Pretoria . What is the reason that you have not yet thought of having an African to be an assistant secretary in your department , the one who will take over from Mr Rose when he decides to go back to Pretoria? MR P.L. KEKANA : Mr Chairman , through you I will like to know from the Minister for the Interior that , on page 10 paragraph 4 he has said something about the L.D.C. but he doesn't tell us in which month he has formed this L.D.C. , and the members thereof as well as its whereabouts . MR S.H. NKADIMENG : In his speech , the Minister for the Interior has mentioned the erection of the factories in the homeland . I will like to know the law which protects the employees of these factories . Are these employees protected or not ? Are they working under the law of Cheap Labour? Who supervise their salaries ? Is it the directors of these factories who determine their scale ? According to the South African law, the directors of the factories determine the employees ' salaries , and if this will be the case with these factories , then the directors concerned should be careful . Last year I proposed a suggestion for the Minister that the people from cities to rural areas who are coming every now and then here at Seshego for their calling - cards should go to their different magistrates for their completion to relieve them from problems . I haven't seen any consideration of this suggestion . What is that which gives the Minister a tough time ? MR H.M. LESHABANE : Mr Chairman , I will repeat myself because I am now facing the right Minister of land and removal of people . Each time I put questions I am told they are not connected with my people . This time I must put a warning that I want an answer or else he must keep quiet . Mr Chairman , I want to know why the Manthata people are removed to a place which is unknown . And I want to know also under which conditions are they staying? A direct answer please , Mr Chairman . This is serious . I represent the people of Kgoši Machaka and those of Manthata . If the honourable the Minister has not been there where the Manthata has been settled , then he must make arrangements that he and get over there because if it is just simply " DIVIDE AND RULE " policy , the Honourable the Minister must understand that this was told to Manthata and that he is going somewhere at Seleka and the people of Machaka shall not be touched . Now something apart from what has been told , has happened .

I must repeat this again that the people of Kgothama and Senthumule have voted for me and my colleague . It is now time that I must take my stand . I want to know, when will the people of Kgothama and Senthumule be settled

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as they have requested? And where? for removal have been removed .

Because my people who have not requested

MR CHAIRMAN : Order ! Honourable member , it does appear that under corrections , the Chief Minister has answered the question of Senthumule and Manthata . MR H.M. LESHABANE : Mr Chairman , with due respect I hope you will listen to me very carefully . When I started here I said I was not answered and as such I am going to repeat myself . I want a direct answer with due respect to the chair . Mr Chairman I am not as stupid as that I think I am a bit intelligent . I thank you very much any way. With due request I will like to repeat because I wish to get an answer with your permission sir . The Chief Minister did not answer me . Minister for the Interior , what are you doing about the labour problem in my country here? We have said in this House that , school children , boys and girls particularly women are carried in open trucks day by day out . I will like to know what you have done and not what you are doing about this . What about the bus shelters in Lebowa? Don't you think , as a nation we need shelters at busstops when it is raining or when it is hot? Why are these not done? Mr Minister , you know , we have a calling-card and we have asked your department to discuss this matter with the Central Government , because it causes a lot of inconveniences when most of the children of Lebowa want jobs while still struggling for it . How far did you go with these discussions ? I have a school there at home called Maruatona in the area of Kgoši Mamaila . According to the Department of Education this school was supposed to be in the Senoamokgope Township . I have asked you and the Department of Education to get this matter corrected . But up to now I received no answer . I want to know whether this school according to your department falls under the township Seno amokgope or it falls under the area of Kgoši Mamaila , because according to the records of the Magistrate , it falls under Kgoši Mamaila whereas according to the records of Education it falls under the Senoamokgope Township . I also want to know about bursaries . The money allocated for bursaries is too small . We want educated people here in Lebowa . Without bursaries what can we do? I want a direct answer . Why do you not think it is necesary to allocate more money for bursaries? MR S.D. MODJADJI : I want to know , Mr Chairman , whether the registration of deaths is compulsory here in Lebowa . If it is compulsory , then how? What are the magosis standpoint? In our areas there are many deaths , so where are these deaths supposed to be burried because the land is under planning? I am coming to marriages . Suppose a mistress is married by the kgoši according to our tradition . Does the Department of education allow that . In our townships there is a problem of water . For example , at Kgapane , water is available in the morning up to 12h00 ; thereafter from 13h00 to 17h00 there is no water . What is your comment? Mr Chairman , before this homeland government , there was a deportation of people . Now, according to the Lebowa rule , is the Minister still sticking on that deportation? If so , where are these people deported to? At our place there , we have a certain man who is cheaky and does not want to abide by the law. Where should we take this person? It is said that at the Regional Authority there are bursaries issued by Lebowa ....

1 1

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THE CHAIRMAN : tabled .

Honourable Member , I know that question of bursaries has been

MR S.S. MOTHAPO: Mr Chairman , I have heard from the Minister for the Interior that the salaries of employees at the mines are equivalent to those of the employees in cities . If that being the case then ... THE CHAIRMAN : Order ! Honourable Member , with your permission , I just want to remind you of one thing . Do you see how attentive this House is when you are speaking and when another member is speaking? I also want you to be attentive . MR S.S. MOTHAPO : If that being the case then we are thankful because , working in the mines where there is danger and risks , the remuneration thereof should be reasonable enough . It is difficult to encourage people who have studied mining to work in the mines where they are less paid . I have these questions concerning the mines : 1. How much does a mine labourer in the cities get and how much does the mine worker in the homeland get? We have two classes of people working in the mines . The first group is working on the surfaces while the second one is working underground . The question is how much are these different groups paid separately?

2. Now, the question of certificates . Why do magistrate offices at times run short of the certificates? Because of this shortage you may find that when children are born even during the time the magistrates have received them , the children are not issued with these certificates . For example , a child is born in January when the certificates are not available for the whole year . When he is to be offered a certificate later , he is charged similarly to the one who has been late to register his birth . Hence , Mr Chairman , I will like to bring this suggestion through you to the Minister for the Interior that we should have more books and copies of certificates rather than only one copy in each magistrate office . 3. You have 17 966 citizenship cards . This number seems to be unreasonable compared to 3 million people we have in Lebowa . That is minus plus of course · Could you explain the reason why the response is so poor and the steps your department is taking in this regard? What is the overall number of Lebowa people who took the citizenship cards to date ? How long does it take from the advisory board status to the town council status ? What criterion is used for the advisory board to become a town council? There is a talk year in and year out about influx control . The honourable the Minister mentioned about the people who got employment through this system of migratory labour but nothing was mentioned about the progress made in eradicating this terrible disease , influx control . Sometimes back a report was conveyed and distributed in this House about a committee being formed to work into the whole question of influx control . And from then , nothing has been heard about this committee . Is this committee still on or has it been dropped as this question of influx control is one of those minor things which can be condoned at any time? While we congratulate you for the Lebowa Transportation Board , would you equally make us understand how many board members are undergoing training? What criterion did you use in your selection for the chairman? And who is he? MR T.P. MAKOLA : We know, Mr Chairman , that when one wants to open a business in a kgoši's land one should have a letter from the particular kgoši . I have heard the Minister for the Interior saying that he will chase away a man who wants to open a business or an industry in kgoši's land if he does

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not have the kgoši's letter . In the Sekhukhuneland at Mooihoek , which is under Kgosi Maroga there is a mining corporation which operates there without consulting or getting a letter from this kgoši . It is surprising to note that the Minister did not ask this company a letter from kgoši but when Maroga's child wants to open a business the Minister wants a letter . I need a thorough explanation . Allow me , Mr Chairman , to evaluate the L.D.C. briefly . My people and I have thought that the L.D.C. is a bank and its duties are for banking . When the L.D.C. is issuing some loans it does so in the system of banking . That is understood . What is not clear is when the L.D.C. deviates from the banking career and indulges into business . In Lebowa all the transportations are under the L.D.C. as well as wholesales . In his speech , the Minister maintains that the L.D.C. functions will appear in a form of a branch of traders . I don't think the Minister will deny the fact that he has introduced us into a socialistic economy . Does the Minister knows the consequences of the socialistic economy? If he did not know let him become aware that he is leading the Lebowa nation towards this type of economy . THE MINISTER FOR THE INTERIOR : Point of order , Mr Chairman . I was quite prepared to answer the straight forward questions . Before I answer the Honourable member's questions , I must tell him that he is accusing me of setting the country into communism and I find that a bit difficult . MR T.P. MAKOLA : Thank you , Mr Chairman , for allowing me to continue . You can see that I am threatening him . This L.D.C. is for the nation . It controls the transport and business . The wise men say that communism means economy which is put in the hands of all the community. If I say the community , I mean the government . Who can deny the fact that the Minister is driving us towards this movement? I'm now on the issue of a citizenship card . If you allow me , Mr Chairman , let me associate this with our Minister . Honourable Minister for the Interior , do you get any satisfaction when I have married a Moshoeshoe woman having qualifications , and she shouldn't work when she arrives here in Lebowa , just because she isn't in possession of this card . Our sons have married nurses outside Lebowa , but when they are to be employed at Lebowa hospital they regret because of these citizenship cards . Where are you leading us the Minister , concerning these cards and economy? MR T.S. TLAKA : Mr Chairman I notice that provision has been made for the compensation for the people removed from the normal place of abode . The question is that : Who are access to these compensations should be payable ? The other question : Is this accessment subject to a review by disinterested third party? In other words , we want to know if they say such evaluation is final . Again : What is hindering the payment of compensation to people removed from Spitskop to Vergeleggen in the Nebo area during July 1975? MR S.P. KWAKWA : Mr Chairman , my first question is the institution of town councils . Is the procedure followed , not a historical heritage , because you have 6 who are elected by the community and 3 who are nominated? Now in the past we had almost 3 people who were nominated because they have look after the vested interest of certain people . Whose interests are the three going to look after? If it is the law that prescribes that the three should be nominated I suggest , Mr Minister that it's time that this law is amended . That has been done in respect of school boards and school committees .

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Mr Chairman , I will like to ask yet another question . Does Lebowa envisage a day when there will be recreation centres for the Lebowa children? We are happy that there will be more houses built and I want to emphasize that don't exclude Mahwelereng . Very soon when you come down there to open the beer garden please assure the people that you will build houses too . This has been condemnation that was levelled at the white government that before they do anything they will build a beer hall and not schools ; buildings that are beneficial to our people . I wouldn't like Lebowa to be guilty of the same accusation . I was asking about amenities we read in the press that Mr Pitje who is a resident of Mamelodi - but I know he is a citizen of Lebowa because his home is at Phokwane , was refused to build a cinema right in this township . On one occasion , Mr Chairman , the Cabinet assured us that we will be able to buy these houses here and build flats , build anything to let and so on . Now if a man cannot be allowed to own a site which he had paid for in order to build a cinema , what hope have we about these promises that we shall one day build flats and let them? Another question concerns the development of a trade school . I think governments sent their teachers at Jabulani to train there in order to come back and assist our children , even the grown ups . Our government paid bursaries for these teachers who went down there and these teachers continued to earn their salaries every month when they were trained with so much money spent on them . Now , what use has been made of those teachers ? Another question : Has our government thought of including a person with some legal knowledge into the membership of the Transportation Board? My worry is that the Transportation Board can be sued and if they blunder about , Lebowa will pay heavily . Another question concerns railways . We are happy that arrangement has been made that our people should travel comfortably on trains . But , is our Minister aware of the robbery that takes place especially between Pretoria and Warmbaths where passengers are searched as they say in Afrikaans , " voor die voet"? This happens even on the daytrains . You may refer me to the Department of Justice but this happens particularly in an area that is not under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Justice . Another question refers to salaries and wages . We have had an exodus of our clerks from here to another employing centres . There was always a breakdown in education because some of the clerks who , as soon as they become quite able they moved to Turfloop because they said the salaries here were low . Has anything being done to stop this exodus ? I am thinkin of the ordinary labour . Are we really satisfied according to your records that what we pay can be what we said to the whites that they don't pay our people well and here we can pay them well . I am speaking from experience because when I was at Boaparankwe I received the cheques of the ordinary workers in that campus . I always wondered whether these people could make ends meet out of what they received . Another question is the failure of the water supply in the townships and not partly to the failure of the purification of plants . Our experience in Mahwelereng is that whenever it has rained there will be no water , or else we may be supplied with dirty water . Can't something be done just to improve that situation rather leave the people without water? My last question but I don't know whether it refers to your department . I don't know , you never perhaps find time whenever you come , you come in an official way and there is always a function there , and you don't meet the busrank and a file of people and see them in circumstances that would disturb your mind? If you go to all offices of Lebowa you will find the people standing in the sweltering heat queing up there to be served without any shelter . Let alone ...

(The Speaker was reminded that this question of shelters has been raised ) .

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MR S.P. KWAKWA : You know , we speak of influx control and its evils and we never talk of influx control and its evils in our own towns . I would like the Minister to involve himself in what is happening in our own towns as far as influx control is concerned . MR A.S. MAHLANGU : I want to know about the difference in legal and illegal marriages . You may find that a husband has two wives . One married under traditional customs and the other , married lawfully . When the husbands dies the lawfully married wife inherits all the property and the traditionally married , gets nothing and the law consequently supports the second lawfully married wife as the correct wife . This implies that we are going to be deprived of our belongings and cattle by the law, as we have married traditionally . Is it fair? Secondly , if you settle people in a new place like Hlogotlou , do you build for them some accommodation or do you throw them just? I am speaking in terms of the Hlogotlou people . It is now four years that these people have been residing there without houses . I will like to know whether you have saved money to erect buildings for them or not? Will you build for them or not? Why do you not build houses for them like you do for other towns . The government has demolished their houses so it must erect new buildings for them . Some of them are just living in shanties ; they have nothing . Thirdly , when you choose town councillors , how many members do you choose? KGOŠI M.M. MATHABATHA : How many mining corporations do we have here in Lebowa? Are the labourers ' reference books endorsed? Are these labourers well cared of? Does the Minister take care that these labourers when deceased or contacted T.B. get paid? It has come to my notice that these people get paid after a long time . If a husband dies , the wife does not get any money . There are many Blantyers who have been working in the mines for a long time and had married . Whenever they die their wives and children do not receive any money from the mines . I am requesting this Minister to do a thorough investigation into this matter . At Lebowakgomo , there is a White man who is owning a shop . Where did he get an allowance to own a shop while my children do not get it?

KGOŠI M.M. MATLALA: I am worried about this citizenship cards . Once we take them , we are at the same time depriving ourselves South African citizenship rights . This House maintains that we must become one thing - a unity ; we don't want independence . Once you take the citizenship card you are no longer a citizen of South Africa but that of a homeland . There are these socalled calling cards . At the end of them , they indicate clearly that a person is not a citizen of South Africa. MR S.L. DIGASHU : Shall the community get any profit from the platinum which is mined at Grand- Mapela? You still remember that we have Syplaats mine , where our community does not get any profit . Coming on the church sites , I will like to know about the church sites which are approved whether these churches are dependent or independent . We have churches which have white priests and those which have black priests . Which of these churches are approved? Many churches which do not have white priests , are not recognised by Pretoria . Are you not recognising them too , Minister? Shall the Minister also see to it that shelters are put at the busstops?

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KGOŠI T.J. MOTHAPO : Mr Chairman , does the Zebediela estate fall under the B.I.C. or the L.D.C. ? In 1971 we were told that 80 000 houses shall have been built within twenty years . It was still under the East Rand Municipality . Now that Pretoria has taken over , we are told that there is no money . Pretoria wants to take and own projects where there is money . Is it not communism? Bus shelters are built not in their correct places . The people to use those shelters are not even consulted . Why? What does the Minister know about the non-prescribed posts that he has referred in his Policy Speech? In the previous years we have said that these posts should come to an end because they are oppressing our people . The drivers of the Ministers ' vehicles fall under these posts . The drivers of abnormal heavy vehicles who were employed before the birth of these homelands , also fall under these posts . They only get R2,50 as a subsistance allowances . Where is the Department of Economics , Mr Chairman? over to Mapulaneng and Manyeleti by B.I.C. busses , cause of thoracic pains causes by the uncomfortable Can't the Minister see to it that the B.I.C. people special buses for far and long trips like this one?

Last week when we went we couldn't sleep beseats of these buses . manufacture or order

MR GODFREY M. SEKHUKHUNE : Mr Chairman , I have a few questions . I wonder as to whether the Minister for the Interior realises the fact that a lot of hardships has been caused amongst the Black people particularly with regard to moving them? I did not expect him as a christian to be still encouraging this type of a thing . It is very shameful to see this appearing in his vote . We still have some people who have been removed from Brakfontein to Bothashoek gaMampuru , from Doornkop to Dennilton in Mahlangu's area as well as Ramaoke's area and many others . These people are not at all up to now settled . It is purely a shame to visit those people residing there now for the fourth year still buying water from a distance paying a rand for a drum . I believe when people are removed to certain areas water facilities and other things are arranged together . People should not be removed from place to place in any case against their will because they are human beings . At Brakfontein for instance , these people have been removed and it appears Mapoch is now going to be settled there . of course it is so . Now , the Minister for the Interior , as it has been indicated already that we have been at the boundaries to see the problems , in this case I thought that the Minister for the Interior will probably persuade the authority of the Department concerned over to the Sekhukhuneland to witness the congestion taking place there and which is the worst of the boundaries themselves . The congestion there , has caused soil erosion which I don't think will ever be overcome . Your community sir ; the christian people are suffering there . KGOSI M.J. MOHLALA : Mr Chairman , we have many requests that concern Eilandfontein . But every now and then the magistrate tells us to wait. There is overpopulation at Mokwena to such an extent that the people there cross the boundary to Gazankulu , where they are provided with a piece of land . Shall the Minister take much care of this problem and give people land? There are workers at the timber factory who get injured . pay attention to this ?

Does the Minister

KGOSI P. NKADIMENG : Geographically , where are we Mr Chairman? ly, who are the urban people in South Africa? THE CHAIRMAN :

Geographical-

On that note the House shall adjourn until 10h00 tomorrow . THE

HOUSE

ADJOURNED A T

17h00 .