Debates of the Transkei Legislative Assembly. Fifth Session. First Assembly. Volume I. 20th April, 1966 to 22nd May, 1966

Table of contents :
Front Cover
PARAMOUNT CHIEFS' REPRESENTATIVES:
ACTS OF THE SESSION

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GOVT JUBA DRET

GPD J

707 173

T732

1966

INDIANA UNIVERSITY LIBRARY DOCUMENTS DEPARTMENT BLOOMINGTON, INDIANA 47408

A

VT PUBLS DEPT

Republic

of South

Africa

Transkei

Government

EX UNITAT VIRE S E

Debates

of the

Transkei Legislative Assembly

Fifth

Session

First Assembly

--Volume

20th April,

I

1966 to 22nd May,

1966

***********

Printed for the Transkei Legislative Assembly************* INDIANA UNIVERSITY by the

Elata Commercial Printers (Pty. ) Ltd. , Un @ a1 3 1969

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50c)

an:

th

Republic

of South

Africa

Transkei

Government

res

JORDA SO WITZ

EXUNIT

ATE VIRES

Debates

of the

Transkei Legislative Assembly

Fifth

Session

First Assembly

Volume

20th April ,

I

1966 to 22nd

May,

1966

Printed for the Transkei Legislative Assembly

by the Elata Commercial Printers (Pty. ) Ltd. , Umtata.

(PRICE 50c)

THE MINISTRY .

CHIEF MINISTER AND MINISTER OF FINANCE :

The Hon. Paramount Chief K.D. Matanzima, M.L.A

MINISTER OF JUSTICE

...

:

The Hon. Chief G.M.M. Matanzima, M.L.A.

MINISTER OF EDUCATION

...

:

The Hon. Mr. B.B. Mdledle , M.L.A.

MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR

...

:

The Hon. Chief J.D. Moshesh , M.L.A.

...

MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY :

The Hon. Mr. C. Madikizela, M.L.A.

MINISTER OF ROADS AND PUBLIC WORKS

The Hon. Mr. Z.M. Mabandla, M.L.A.

MEMBERS OF THE TRANSKEI LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY .

CHAIRMAN: The Hon . Chief P. JOZANA, M.L.A. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The Hon . Mr. M.H. CANCA, M.L.A.

DALINDYEBO :

1. 2. 3. 4. 5.

Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Justice Mtirara Chief Ngangomhlaba Mtirara Chief Johnson Jumba Chief Sitem bile Mgudlwa

6. 7. 8. 9.

Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Ndlelalula V. Mrazuli Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa

10. 11. 12. 13.

Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Acting Chief Zimisile Dalasile Mr. Mzimkulu K. Guzana Mr. Godini G. Kutu

14. Mr. Zilingwenya W. Lufefeni 15. Mr. Zinyusile L. Majija

16. Mr. Jackson B. Nkosiyane 17. Mr. Madan gatye A. Raziya 18. Mr. Geben ga Arthur Sasa EMBOLAND :

19. Chief Strachan Wabana Makaula 20. Chief Ngayibeki Nomtsheketshe 21. Chief Sandy S. Majeke 22. Chief Charles M. Ludidi 23. 24. 25. 26. 27. 28. 29.

Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Chief Ebenezer Mabandla Mr. Martin Hobden Canca Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla

30. Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke 31. Miss Lillian Twetwa

EMIGRANT TEMBULAND :

32. 33. 34. 35.

Paramount Chief K.D. Matanzima Chief Kaulele M. Mgudlwa Chief Zwelibanzi V. Ndarala Chief Tam bekile Matanzima

36. 37. 38. 39.

Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Chief George M.M. Matanzima Mr. Bennet Beste Mdledle

40. Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe 41. Mr. Robert B. Msengana

FINGO :

42. Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo 43. Chief Irvine V. Nkwenkwezi 44.

Chief Havington Z. Zulu

45. Dr. Hornabrook Bala 46. Mr. Campbell S. Mnyila 47. Mr. Orlando O. Mpondo 48. Mr. Temba L. Mazwi GCALEKA:

49. Paramount Chief Mzikayise X. Sigcau 50. Chieftainess Nozizwe A. Sigcau 51. 52. 53. 54. 55.

Chief Zwelenqaba Gwebindlala Chief Adolphus B. Sigidi Chief Maboboti Mapassa Mr. Ndabankulu J. Busakwe Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala

56. Mr. Jekem M. Malgas 57. Mr. Goodman Mnyango 58. Mr. Paulos Mqikela 59. Mr. Jongilizwe Moses Dumalisile 60. Punguzulu S. Sigcau

MALUTI:

61. Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Hlomendlini Magadla Chief Frederick S. Lupindo Chief Wilson Ludidi 66. Chief Solomon M. Lebenya 67. Chief Marshall Lehana 68. Chief Frank Zibi 69. Mr. Enoch B. Mhlahlo 62. 63. 64. 65.

70. Mr. Benjamin S. Rajuili 71. Mr. Mangqukele S. Sinaba 72. Mr. Nkwenkwezi H.H. Zibi NYANDA :

73. Paramount Chief Victor Poto 74. Chief Tutor N. Ndamase 75. 76. 77. 78. 79. 80.

QAUKENI :

Chief Douglas D.P. Ndamase Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Mr. Lizo A. Luwaca Mr. Tokilana Mangala Mr. Madlavana C. Ndamase Mr. Walter C. Singata

81. Paramount Chief Botha M. Sigcau 82. Chief Mbungwa Langasiki 83. Chief Makosonke Sigcau 84. Chief Jongilizwe Ntola 85. Chief Gangata Baleni 86. Chief Xakatile Mlindazwe 87. Chief Sigixana Langa 88. Chief Nelson Sigcau 89. Chief Mdabuka Mqikela 90. Chief Stanford Sigcau

91. Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga 92. Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa 93. Chief Mzauteti Diko. 94. Acting Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo 95. Chief Madlanya Tantsi 96. Mr. Tamsanqa H. Bubu 97. Mr. Gordon Dana 98. Mr. Cromwell Diko 99. Mr. Columbus Madikizela 100. Mr. Mkatali W. Madikizela 101. Mr. Sizakele C. Mda 102. Mr. Citibunga N. Nogcantsi. 103. Mr. Kolisile G. Nota UMZIMKULU:

104. 105. 106. 107. 108. 109.

Chief Morris Msingapantsi Chief Ngqange Setuse Chief Tshayizandla Baka Chief Petros Jozana Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. Helydale H. Nolutshungu

PARAMOUNT CHIEFS' REPRESENTATIVES:

110. 111. 112. 113. 114.

Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr. Mr.

for Paramount Chief Botha M. Sigcau E.A. Pinyane Lingham Maninjwa - for Paramount Chief Victor Poto Dumezweni Sigagayi - for Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Ndabeni Xelo - for Paramount Chief Mzikayise X. Sigcau E. Goduka Sihele - for Paramount Chief K.D. Matanzima

CONTENTS.

See back of VOLUME II.

BILLS OF THE SESSION .

No. of Bill

No. of Act

1-'66

1- '66

Transkei Flag

2-'66

2-'66

Transkeian Standing Rules and Orders

3-'66

3-'66

Transkei Appropriation

4- '66

4-'66

Transkei Government Service Amendment

5-'66

5-'66

Transkei Police

6-'66

6-'66

Transkei Liquor Laws Amendment

7-'66

7-'66

Transkei Authorities Amendment

8-'66

8-'66

9-'66

9-'66

Transkei Co-operative Societies Amendment Transkei Education

10 - '66

10- '66

SHORT TITLE

Transkeian Agricultural Development

ACTS OF THE SESSION .

In Chronological Order.

1- '66

Transkei Flag

2-'66

Transkeian Standing Rules and Orders

3-'66

Transkei Appropriation

4-'66

Transkei Government Service Amendment

5-'66

Transkei Police

6 -'66

Transkei Liquor Laws Amendment

7-'66

Transkei Authorities Amendment

8-'66

Transkei Co-operative Societies Amendment

9-'66

Transkei Education

10 -'66

Transkeian Agricultural Development

TRANSKAIAN LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

PROCEEDINGS AT THE SPECIAL SESSION HELD ON 20TH APRIL, 1966

The fifth session of the First Transkeian It is perhaps fitting on this occasion to give a brief resume of the functions and present

Legislative Assembly opened in the Assembly Hall at 10.30 a.m. on

activities of the six departments that have been established in the Transkei.

WEDNESDAY, 20TH APRIL , 1966. The Department of the Chief Minister and Finance is in a sense a central co-ordinating Prayers were read.

The

department of the

Government Notice

summoning the It is the Department which formulates financial policy. It exercises Treasury Control and acts as central bookkeeping department for the other departments. It does all the administrative work of the Public Service Commission , guides the activities of the subordinate administrative bodies in the Transkei and also organizes all

Assembly was read. THE CHAIRMAN: We have with us the honourable Mr. M.C.

Botha, Minister of Bantu Adminis-

tration and Development, who

Transkeian Administration.

will deliver the

opening speech on behalf of the State President.

matters pertaining to this Legislative Assembly . ADDRESS BY THE HONOURABLE THE MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND DEVELOPMENT .

In the economic field it is the purpose of the Department of Finance to encourage and promote the industrial, commercial and general economic growth of the Transkei and in such a manner that economic stability will be ensured. The Government is faced with a situation where

MR . CHAIRMAN AND MEMBERS OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY: It is my pleasant task and privilege to be with you today and to welcome you to this the fifth session of this First Assembly.

On

11th December,

1963, I, then

capital formation by Transkeian citizens is to all intents and purposes non-existent and the Treasury has been obliged to resort to the investment of Government moneys in public utili-

Deputy

ties and co-operative undertakings and to an even greater extent to having development projects carried out departmentally and thereby causing the Government to a certain extent to play the role of the entrepreneur.

Minister, was present here as a guest on the occasion of the investiture of your Ministers and other office bearers, but today I am with you officially as the newly appointed Minister. It is hardly necessary to remind you that I am

Economic progress in the Transkei will be marked this year by government financed undertakings which will greatly benefit the crop producer and the cattle farmer and the Transkei's economy in general. I think here of the meat processing and deboning factory which will go into full production almost immediately and will create a ready market for poor quality stock which would otherwise be unsaleable, and the

acquainted with your activities which I have always followed with great interest. The Transkei Government has now been in office for a period of more than two years and during this period South Africa and also the rest of the world have watched this important venture in the Transkei with profound interest, for here in the Transkei the South African Government

co-operative which will provide agricultural credit on a wide scale. It is sincerely hoped that the Xhosa Development Corporation which was established by the Republican Government during the latter half of last year for the specific purpose of assisting with the economic and

granted self-government to the first Bantu Homeland of South Africa in furtherance of its policy of separate development.

Today I can rightly say that the Transkei has proved that the policy of separate development is practical , feasible and acceptable.

•

industrial development of the Xhosa people will also in the Transkei play a very important part

Although it is fully realized that a period of two and

give

impetus

to

industrial

development.

years is very short in the history of a people the facts are nevertheless that during these first two crucial years the Transkei has not only been blessed with peace, sound administration and progress in all spheres, but all the indications

Apart from budgeting and applying the other forms of financial control the Department of Finance has been instrumental in publishing

are that very sound foundations have been laid

Tender Board procedures and in the Accounts Section a system of mechanised accounting has been introduced.

by the Transkeian Administration and that everything augurs well for the future.

comprehensive instructions in connection with

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On the personnel front the Transkeian Govemment can look back on a year of steady

controlled Church schools , are now established as Government schools under the direct control

development as far as the appointment, advancement and training of Transkeian Government officials are concerned. In this regard special mention must be made of the Public Service Commission's avowed policy of setting high educational and moral standards for Transkeian

of the Government, with regional authorities and school committees as the chief advisory organs on educational matters .

public servants, thereby ensuring the laying of sound foundations for an efficient, dedicated and incorruptible administration to serve the citizens of the Transkei .

In keeping with the spirit of the constitution as far as it relates to the Government Service , seconded Republican officers are gradually being replaced by Transkeian officials from the

By way of illustrating the application of this policy, it may be mentioned that 86 seconded officials were replaced by Transkeian officials during the past two years and that only 382 of a total of 2,821 posts on the fixed establishment of the Government Service are at present filled by seconded officials. Transkei

Authorities

as from this year conduct and control entirely its own Std. VI Examinations. From the 1st April,

1966 ,

a pension

scheme

for teachers

came into operation. Legislation will be introduced during the current session to provide for your Government's own Education Act while regulations relating to pupil, teacher and school control are also being drawn up.

lower grades upwards.

The

The Department is giving serious attention to raising the level of teacher training and teaching instructions and has in the process abolished the Lower Primary Training Course. Furthermore , the Education Department will

Act came into

force in February of this year and the Chief Minister's Department is at present implementing the new Act. Elections have been held in some districts but in many districts pressure of work has prevented magistrates from holding the necessary elections. It is , however, expected that the new authorities will be operating

During the past year the Department of the Interior conducted two by-elections in the in Fingo- and Umzimkulu regions . With the completion of the zoning of Transkeian towns and villages and the publication of the proclamation thereanent, an important step forward has been made for Transkei citizens to own and occupy businesses and properties in all the urban areas of the Transkei .

The labour bureaux system in the Transkei functioned smoothly during the past year and approximately 130,000 persons were placed in employment.

smoothly very soon . All headmen's stipends have been adjusted to the new scales and the question of enhanced retiring allowances to chiefs and headmen has received the sympathetic attention promised last year.

The Department of Justice is responsible for the administration of Justice in the Transkei . It controls the District Magistrates offices in the 26 magisterial districts of the Transkei and is, in conjunction with the South ,African Police, responsible for the maintenance of law and order in the Transkei .

Relief works were undertaken during 1965 in 17 districts as a means of rendering assistance to needy persons who had been victims of the critical drought conditions prevailing in the area. During the year some 6,600 persons were assisted at a monthly expenditure of approximately R40,000 . Relief measures have had to be continued on a smaller scale, into the year 1966.

The activities of the Department of Agriculture and Forestry cover the entire field of agriculture , including veld and soil conservation , stock improvement , development, maintenance and conservation of water sources , forestry, veterinary services and fauna and flora.

The Department is at present giving primary attention to the proper functioning and development of chiefs ' and headmen's courts , the

In transfer of the existing magistrates ' courts and Bantu Affairs Commissioner's courts to the

common with the rest of South Africa,

the Transkei experienced a severe drought during the previous summer season. As a result of this drought and severe snowfalls in the

Transkeian Government, and the extension of police services performed by the Transkeian Police. In accordance with the Government's policy of the gradual replacement of seconded

winter losses. with a present

officers by Transkeian Government personnel , the appointment of the first two Transkeian

the year was marked by heavy stock The Transkei was , however, blessed favourable summer season during the year but the serious drought in March

of this year has marred the advantages of a good summer considerably.

citizens as magistrates in two district offices is now receiving attention.

of the weather, the Agricultural to devote must, distress to the

The Department of Education has made noteworthy progress in the sphere of education . As a result of the disestablishment of school

Flowing from the vagaries just described , the personnel of Branch were perforce required of their time to the relief of

boards all schools , except for a few privately

detriment of agricultural development.

-2-

Tea cultivation and phormium tenax fibre production are in full stride , while the Irrigation Scheme in the district of St. Marks is progressing according to plan. The use of fertilisers is being practised widely , and this augurs well for the future of maize production in these Territories . Transkei citizens would therefore be well advised to take to soil conservation with the utmost determination. The exploitation of forest resources and the establishment of more plantations are being pursued with the utmost vigour. This not only provides more avenues of employment, but is also a potential source of increased revenue.

may

veterinary services, and the need to import stock from elsewhere will largely fall away.

First Legislative

Now that road making activities have been taken over from regional authorities in terms of the Transkei Roads Act which came into operation on the 1st April this year, the way is open for greater and more attention to be paid to district roads by the Transkeian Department of Roads and Works.

This Department has undertaken extensive building programmes for itself and for the other

office accommodation and the planning of a well-designed and imposing administrative centre in Umtata.

1, ce

y,

administration .

a, ht It he ck

ed he ch

of the

Transkei

ANNOUNCEMENTS. THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members, it is proposed to accept notices of motion from private members only on the 21st and 22nd April, 1966, thereafter private notices of motion will not be allowed on the Order Paper except with the consent of the House. Questions. It is also proposed to adhere to the past practice of replying to questions to members of the Cabinet on Tuesday. Members may therefore submit notices of questions to the Secretary. Invitation. Members of the Legislative Assembly are invited to attend a police display and a presentation function this afternoon at the Transkei Sports Stadium .

Mr. Chairman and members, I have endeavoured to give a very brief survey of some of the functions and activities of the various Govemment Departments in the Transkei . In due course the estimates for the current financial year will be submitted to you for careful consideration and you will in the course of your deliberations on those estimates, get a much more detailed picture of the whole scope and all the activities of the entire Transkeian

i. of

Assembly

duly open.

5

to ar

In conclusion , I pray that divine guidance inspire your deliberations to the end.

I now declare this the Fifth Session of the

sister Departments . The programme for the forthcoming year includes the erection of schools and additional classrooms , the provision of

S

neighbourliness.

The Transkei farmers are now in a position to raise the standard of their stock. In this they will have at their disposal the well-organised

1

S

maintained in this Council. I wish to congratulate the Transkeian Govemment on its responsible leadership and also all the officials who are employed here for their valuable services and devotion . We in South Africa are proud of the achievements already attained. We wish you prosperity for the future and remember: Your Mother Government in the Republic of South Africa is with you and is holding your hand on the road of peaceful evolutionary political developmnet. And in this evolutionary process it remains the task of not only the Republic and Transkei , but also of its citizens to do everything within their power to promote mutual good

The Assembly adjourned until 11 am. on Thursday, 21st April, 1966. THURSDAY , 21st APRIL, 1966. The Assembly resumed at 11 am. Prayers were read. The Votes and Proceedings of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.

Your Government further intends, inter alia, to introduce legislation during the current session conceming the Standing Orders of this

ADMINISTRATION OF OATH TO NEW MEMBERS. The following new members took the oath before the Chairman of the Assembly: Mr. Horace Helydale Nolutshungu , Mr. Temba Leonard Mazwi, Chieftainess Nozizwe Avis Sigcau, Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa, Mr. Ndabeni Xelo, and Mr. Edmund Goduk a Sihele.

Assembly, the Assets of District Authorities , an Amendment of the Civil Service Proclamation , the Liquor Act, Education, Co-operative Societies , Animal Husbandry and also to continue with the Transkeian Flag Bill .

od

Mr. Chairman and members of the Legislative Assembly, from what I have said so far it

er al st he

is evident that you have been tackling your problems with enthusiasm and energy. The road that lies ahead of you is a long one, but the progress in all spheres is encouraging. I wish to congratulate you and the members of this

The roll was called.

Assembly on the high standard that you have

MESSAGES. THE SECRETARY: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, the following messages have been received:

-3-

MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chaiman, I would be glad to be directed to the provision that requires that a member should have a reason given to this House. If the hon. the Chief Minister wishes to know why members are not here, he may direct a letter to the Leader of the Opposition and he may be provided with that information. The roll call in effect completes the situation and decides and indicates who 1 is present and who is absent. As from tomorrow this side of the House will announce who is absent and why, but not today when the roll has been called.

"Wish you and all members success in your deliberations and may God grant you wisdom and courage in your labours" • Monwabisi Steyn, Steyn's Comer House, Bizana. "The Advisory Board, South-westem areas, No. 3, Soweto, send greetings and good wishes on occasion of present session. May your deliberations lead to peace, progress and prosperity " - F. Musetha, Ferreirasdorp . ANNOUNCEMENTS.

THE CHAIRMAN : The hon . the Chief Minister has already dealt with item 6. Is the House agreed on the proposed committees?

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members, I have to report that on the Government side only one member is absent and that is Chief Xakatile Mlindazwe. He is reported to be physically indisposed.

THE MEMBERS: Agreed. NOTICES OF BILLS.

APPOINTMENT OF COMMITTEES.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to announce for the information of this Legislative Assembly that it is the intention of the Government to introduce the following bills during this session, viz. The Transkei Flag Bill, the Appropriation Bill, a Bill relating to the Rules of Procedure, a Bill to amend certain sections of the Public Service Proclamation , a Bill affecting tribal authorities, a Transkeian Police Bill , a Transkei Liquor Bill, an Education Bill, an Agricultural Development Bill and a Co-operative Societies Amendment Bill.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I propose that the following standing committees, composed of the following hon. members , be appointed by the House: (1) On Standing Rules and Internal Arrangements. The Minister of Justice (Chairman), the Minister of Education, Messrs . K.M. Guzana, C. Mda and Chief D. Mditshwa. (2) Committee on Public Accounts . Mr. R. Msengana (Chairman), Messrs . M. Canca, J.M. Sineke, K. G. Nota and T.H. Bubu. (3) Business Committee. The Chief Minister (Chairman), the Minister of Roads and Works , Minister of the Interior, Chai man of the House, Chief J. Mti rara and Mr. K.M. Guzana. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman of Government Bills. I wish to announce ....

Notice

MR. K.M. GUZANA: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I am not aware that we have gone past Item No. 5 on the Order Paper, nor was I aware that No. 6 had been dealt with with your permission , Sir, and in view of the fact that there has been an announcement by the hon. the Chief Minister in respect of absent members I thought I would have an opportunity to make an announcement on behalf of the Opposition. It will assist us very much if the hon . the Chief Minister would not run through the programme just because he happens to figure in every consecutive item, and give the other side an opportunity to speak. I crave your indulgence to make an announcement on behalf of the Opposition, Sir.

MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chaimman, it is a matter of concem to the Opposition that it is always kept in the dark about intended legislation. I think if the Opposition is going to participate constructively in the discussions on bills coming before the House the Govemment should consider publishing these bills well in advance of the session, not only for the information of the members of the House but also for the infomation of the public. Failing that, I think it is fair to supply each and every member of the House with a copy of intended bills on the first day that Parliament meets. That will enable us to remove the weeds from the bills that the Government is bringing in timeously, and on matters where there is no difference of opinion or view there can be agreement. After all, bills are wordy documents and it takes quite some time to get down to the crux of the bill. What might appear to be intended on the face of the bill might be the very opposite of what is contained in the bill, and we would make with special request, knowing that there are difficulties as to translation. THE

THE CHAIRMAN : Carry on. So we are still on Item 5. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in view of the fact that there has been a roll call today, those who were absent have signified by being silent and those who were present have signified by answering to their names, and that completes the list of absentees and those present in theOpposition. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I think the report given by the Opposition is incomplete. The House would like to know the reason for the absence of those who are not present. There should be no secrecy about it.

CHIEF

MINISTER:

Mr.

Chairman ,

in

reply to the request that has been made by the Leader of the Opposition, I just want to say that the Govemment has a discretion in these matters . I think the Opposition must have confidence in the Government.

NOTICE OF APPROPRIATION BILL.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, as Minister of Finance I beg to give notice that on Friday, 22nd April, 1966 , I propose to introduce a bill to apply a sum not exceeding R16,568,000 towards the service of the Transkei, for the financial year ending on the 31st day of March, 1967.

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increase in the number of chiefs in any district, one or more chiefs in such district are to be excluded from membership of the Assembly, the person or persons : SO to be excluded shall be determined by secret ballot at a meeting of the paramount chiefs, if any, and chiefs in the district affected to be convened by the Chaiman of the Assembly: Provided that if no majority can be reached at such meeting a meeting of the paramount chiefs, if any, and chiefs in the region shall be convened by the said Chairman for the purpose of determining the person ΟΙ persons to be excluded.

NOTICE OF FLAG BILL . THE CHIEF MINISTER: I beg to give notice that on Friday, the 22nd day of April, 1966, I propose to introduce a bill to provide for a Transkei flag. NOTICES OF MOTION. 1. The Honourable the Chief Minister gave notice to move:-

whereas

"(a) That

the

Gcaleka

Regional

Authority has in tems of sub-section (1) of section 45 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 (No. 48 of 1963) resolved

d

(c) That section 26 be amended to read as follows:-

That a sub-chieftainship be created in respect of administrative areas Nos. 14, 15, 16, 17 , 18, 20 , 24, 25 and 27 in Kentani district and Headman Gwadana Dondashe be designated sub- chief over these nine administrative areas;

The 26 districts in the Transkei shall be electoral divisions for the election of the 45 elected members of the Legislative Assembly and the number of members to be elected in respect of each electoral

e

g e

(b) And whereas this resolution entails the creation of a new chieftainship in the Transkei;

l ei

(c) Now

therefore

in the

opinion

of this

Assembly the Govemment should in terms of sub-section (2) of section 45 of Act No. 48 of 1963 consider the advisability (i) of creating a new sub- chieftainship in Kentani district, for the following administrative areas:-

er ot e

division shall be in proportion to the respective total numbers of registered voters in the various divisions . "'" 3. The Honourable Mr. to move:-

" That in the opinion of this House the Transkeian Govemment consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to grant full independence to the Transkei. "

4. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.

e ce e

k

By не s

ನ B

be d of ne s al

he at I The

20

a to

er the 1st

14 called Cebe, 15 called Nxaxo A, 16 called Takazi A, 17 called Kobonqaba A, 18 called Takazi B, 20 called Ncerana, 24 called Nqusi , 25 called Zibunu, 27 called Zincuka, and

S.M. Sinaba gave notice

Mr. N. Jafta gave notice to move:-

" That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of making legislation ensuring that grants are not paid to patients not regularly attending treatment. " 5.

(ii) of recommending that the State President should confirm the designation of Headman Gwadana Dondashe as sub-chief of the said administrative areas. "

"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of asking the Republican Government as follows:(a) Where a hospital has more than 120 beds one or two full-time Health Educators be attached. (b) Such men be Transkei ans. (c) Be paid by the Transkeian Govemment. (d) Be under the immediate control of the Superintendent of his base hospital. "

2. The Honourable the Chief Minister gave notice to move: -

"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Govemment should consider the advisability of amending section 25 of Act No. 48 of 1963 to read as follows:(a) The total number of paramount chiefs and chiefs in the Legislative Assembly shall not at any time exceed 64 and if any paramount chieftain ship is created in any area, whether in addition to those existing in the Dalindyebo, Gcaleka, Nyanda, Emigrant Tembul and or Qaukeni district areas or in any other district, the number of chiefs representing the district affected shall be reduced correspondingly.

(b) Where by reason of the provisions of sub-section ( 1) or in consequence of an

Mr. N. Jafta gave notice to move:-

6.

Rev. B.S. Rajuili gave notice to move:-

"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Govemment should consider the advisability of · That the Principal Teacher in the Primary Schools in the Transkei be exempted from full-time teaching, so that he may ably carry out the organisational duties of a principal."

7.

Rev. B.S. Rajuili gave notice to move:-

"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of · That where Africans wish to form a company of Directors for any enterprise within the framework of law, membership of such company and directors and shareholders be open to all people. "

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8.

Rev. B.S. Rajuili gave notice to move:-

(2) the estimates of revenue to be received during the year ending 31st March, 1967.

"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Govemment should consider the advisability of · Southern Sotho be one of the official languages in the Transkei. " 9.

Mr. Chairman, in tems of section 53 of the Transkei Constitution Act, No. 48 of 1963, I wish to convey to the Assembly my recommendation for the appropriations contemplated in the Transkei Appropriation Bill, 1966. I wish to convey to the Assembly the message that I, as Minister of Finance, having been informed of the subject matter of the sum not exceeding proposed Bill, to apply R16,568,000 towards the service of the Transkei for the financial year ending 31st March, 1967, recommend the appropriations contemplated therein in terms of the Transkei Constitution Act, No. 48 of 1963. In accordance with the provisions of sub-section (3), section 26 of Proclamation R.334 of 1963. I lay upon the table the Transkei Govemment Service Regulations made in terms of Proclamation R.334 for the administration . of the conditions of service of members of the Government service. Mr. Chairman and hon. members, as Minister of Finance I lay upon the table the report of the Con- L troller and Auditor-General on the appropriation accounts and miscellaneous accounts of the inferior bodies of the Transkei for the financial year 1964/ I 1965 in tems of Rule 147 (b) which stands referred to the sessional committee on Public Accounts.

Miss Lillian Twetwa gave notice to move:-

" That in the opinion of this Assembly the Govemment should consider the advisability of raising the Lepers ' Disability grants. " 10.

Mr. S.C. Mnyila gave notice to move:-

" That in the opinion of this Assembly the Govemment should consider the advisability of augmenting the funds of the Govemment and that Transkei Proclamation No. 224 of 1932 relating to the preservation of timber and other forest produce in certain forests in the Transkeian Territories be amended in such a way that it will be possible to open for use or sale to the public timber mentioned therein which is now mature and suitable for disposal. " 11.

Mr. K.M. Guzana gave notice to move:-

" That this House has no confidence in the Government. "

THE CHAIRMAN: Excuse me, honourable Minister. What item are you on now? We are still on item 4 but you seem to be dealing with item 6 now. I will call for notices of motion.

SUSPENSION OF RULE 67. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move: -

NOTICES OF MOTION.

" That Rule 67 of the Rules of this Assembly be suspended as far as the motion which the hon. member, the Leader of the Opposition , has just given notice to move is concemed, and that this House proceeds on Monday moming next week to debate the the motion of the hon. member. "

12.

E 3 230

Mr. N. Jafta gave notice to move:-

"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of extending free medical services to African police families. "

The motion was carried.

E 13.

The Assembly adjoumed until 11 am . on Friday, 22nd April, 1966 .

Mr. N. Jafta gave notice to move: -

" That in the opinion of this Assembly the Govemment should consider the advisability of

FRIDAY, 22nd APRIL, 1966 .

asking the Health Department to install a miniature X Ray unit at larger hospitals capable of filming all T.B. contacts, all men recruited for mines and cities, all local senior school children , all Govemment officials. The films to be sent to the Regional T. B. Officer monthly. "

The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m. Prayers were read. The votes and proceedings of the previous day were taken as read and, after amendment, confimmed.

14 .

NOTICES OF BILLS.

"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Govemment should consider the advisability of asking the Health Department to print vast amounts of literature in all foms of health education for all schools, churches, hospitals , clinics, govemment buildings, stores, bus stops etc., so that the problems are always before the people. "

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I beg to give notice that on Monday, 25th day of April, 1966 , I propose to move the first reading of a bill to provide for the repeal, subject to certain reservations, of Proclamation No. 309 of 1963. TABLING OF REPORTS OR DOCUMENTS.

15.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chaiman, I wish to lay upon the table the following documents : (1) The estimates of expenditure to be defrayed from the Transkei Revenue Fund during the year ending 31st March, 1967; and

Mr. N. Jafta gave notice to move:-

Miss. Lillian Twetwa gave notice to move:-

"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Govemment should consider the advisability of placing female teachers on an equal footing with males in respect of remuneration ." 16.

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Miss. Lillian Twetwa

gave notice to move:-

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7.

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8

"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Govemment should consider the advisability of making the employment of married women teachers part of the policy of the Department of Education where a husband is unable to support the family. "

17.

Miss.

give to their headmen and chiefs in local matters in the Transkei."

26.

"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of amending Proclamation No. 116 of 1949 so that the control and running of already rehabilitated areas be in the hands of a location committee with the headman as chairman in consultation with the tribal or community authority, and the agricultural officer in an advisory capacity."

Lillian Twetwa gave notice to move:-

"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Govemment should consider the advisability of constructing bridges at Tsitsa River near Shawbury, Gqukunqa River in Qumbu district and at upper Inxu River in Tsolo district. "

18.

Chief S.S. Majeke gave notice to move:27.

" That in the opinion of this Assembly and with a view to improving the quality of stock in the Transkei , as well as replenishing the dwindling numbers owing to recurring drought conditions and stock diseases, the Govemment should encourage "" importation of stock from outside the Transkei .'

I

d

1 6

28.

"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Govemment should consider the advisability of requesting Municipal Offices in the Bantu Locations to act as voters ' registration centres." 29 .

(a) requesting the Republican Goverment to hand over the portfolio for Social Welfare; (b) employing trained Social Welfare workers in all the magisterial districts in the Transkei. "

Mr. L.A. Luwaca gave notice to move:-

30. The honourable the Minister of Justice, Chief G.M.M. Matanzima, gave notice to move:-

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"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Goverment should consider the advisability of building houses next to Govemment forests for workers in Agricultural forests in the Transkei . "

22.

Mr. L.L. Mazwi gave notice to move:-

"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Goverment should consider the advisability of:

Mr. L.A. Luwaca gave notice to move:-

"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Govemment should consider the advisability of extending authority to tribal authorities to register and charge a registration fee of R10.00 per year to all persons practising as herbalists in the Transkei."

21.

Mr. L.L. Mazwi gave notice to move:-

Mr. L.A. Luwaca gave notice to move:-

" "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Govemment should consider the advisability of recognising the Primary Lower III plus Infant School Teachers Certificate (I.S.T.C. ) as a teaching qualification."

20.

Mr. K.G. Nota gave notice to move:-

" That in the opinion of this Assembly the Govemment should consider the advisability that magistrates be fully trained legally before acting as judicial officers. "

f 19.

Chief H. Zulu gave notice to move:-

" That on Monday, 25th April, 1966, the Govemment side will request that motions by members on this side of the House be allowed to be introduced .'

Mr. H.H. Zibi gave notice to move:MR. C.S. MDA: Mr. Chai man, I wish to move as an amendment....

"That in the opinion this Assembly the Government should considerof the advisability of suspending the rehabilitation scheme until areas already under the said scheme have been completely done."

THE CHIEF MINISTER: This is giving notice to move, not moving a motion.

1

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23.

MR. MDA: I wish to give notice to move an amendment.

Mr. H.H. Zibi gave notice to move:-

"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of erecting a bridge on the Tina River between Lethabathaba and Printsu locations in the Mr. Fletcher district.'99

24.

THE CHAIRMAN: That is out of order, hon. member. Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members, you will remember that we said this will be the last day for notices of motion. Now we have received this motion.

Mr. G.G. Kutu gave notice to move:THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: The position is that it was said no motions would be allowed without the leave of the House so that notice of motion is intended to ask for that leave on Monday to introduce new motions. It will be discussed on Monday as to whether or not these motions be allowed to be introduced in the House , not now.

"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of permitting night school concerts in the Transkei instead of the day concerts. '

e of

25.

Mr. G.G. Kutu gave notice to move:-

31. " That in the opinion of this Assembly the Govemment should consider the advisability of a bonus to be paid to sub-headmen for the help they

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Mr. O.O. Mpondo gave notice to Move:-

"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Goverment should consider the advisability of

increasing financial assistance to agricultural shows in the Transkei an districts and re-establishing the central show in Umtata with a view to improving. the quality of stock and agricultural produce in the Transkei."

32.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: The second reading of the Bill will take place on Monday, 25th April, or so soon thereafter as possible.

Mr. O.O. Mpondo gave notice to move:-

AMENDMENTS TO TRANSKEI CONSTITUTION ACT.

"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Goverment should consider the advisability of suspending forthwith the notorious Proclamation No. R400 of 1960. " 33.

The Bill was read a first time.

Rev. B.S. Rajuili gave notice to move:-

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move:" That in the opinion of this Assembly the Goverment should consider the advisability of amending section 25 of Act No. 48 of 1963 to read as follows:-

"That in the opinion of this Assembly and in view of the limited facilities in the Republican Bantu Colleges Transkeians who have completed the requirements to train for medical or any other profession and trade which the Republic and the Transkei may not have provided for Africans, the Goverment should consider the advisability of

(a) The total number of paramount chiefs and chiefs in the Legislative Assembly shall not at any time exceed 64 and if any paramount chieftainship is created in any area, whether in addition to those existing in the Dalindyebo, Gcaleka, Nyanda,

allowing Transkeians to train elsewhere and prevailing upon the Republican Govemment not to refuse passports and/or travel documents to such aspiring Transkeians seeking such provided for them in the country."

34.

Emigrant Tembuland or Qaukeni district areas or in any other district, the number of chiefs representing the district affected shall be reduced correspondingly.

training not

(b) Where by reason of the provisions of sub-section (1) or in consequence of an increase in the number of chiefs in any district, one or more chiefs in such district

Rev. B.S. Rajuili gave notice to move:-

"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of granting a Department of Defence to the Transkei."

35.

are to be excluded from membership of the Assembly, the person or persons so to be excluded shall be determined by secret ballot at a meeting of the paramount chiefs, if any, and chiefs in the district affected to be convened by the Chairman of the Assembly: Provided that if no majority can be reached at such meeting a meeting of the paramount chiefs, if any, and chiefs in the region shall be convened by the said Chairman for the purpose of determining the person or persons to be excluded .

Mr. L. T. Mazwi gave notice to move:-

"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Govemment should consider the advisability of establishing a Wage Detemination Board in the Transkei. " TABLING OF DOCUMENTS AND REPORTS.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I lay upon the table Official Gazette No. 53 ofthe 12th November, 1965, announcing the Tender Board Regulations .

The 26 districts in the Transkei shall be electoral divisions for the election of the 45 elected members of the Legislative Assembly and the number of members to be elected in respect of each electoral division shall be in proportion to the respective total numbers of registered "" voters in the various divisions . '

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the Transkei Appropriation Bill, 1966, be now read a first time. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second, Mr. Chairman .

The Bill was read a first time. THE CHIEF MINISTER: The second reading will be on Monday, 25th April , or so soon thereafter as possible.

TRANSKEI FLAG BILL : FIRST READING.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I move that the Transkei Flag Bill be now read a first time. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second. Agreed to.

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the

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(c) That section 26 be amended to read as follows:-

APPROPRIATION BILL : FIRST READING.

Agreed to.

05

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This motion is a very important one in that ར་ after it has been passed by this Assembly it will be forwarded to the Republican Parliament. That is necessary because any amendment to the Transkei Constitution Act must not affect the fundamentals of the Constitution . The Transkei Constitution Act has certain entrenched clauses, such as section 25, which may not be amended at will without affecting the business of this House. As the Constitution stands, section 25 reads as follows: (Reads section 25) I will deal also with section 26 because section 25 relies on section 26. It reads in the same manner as in the Constitution except that where the regions are mentioned, such as Dalindyebo , Gcaleka and so on, there is an additional region - namely, Emigrant Tembuland. Now let us begin with section 26. I do not think I am going to be long because in any case the Leader of the Opposition has intimated that

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there will be no opposition to this. I mention this for the benefit of the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, in order to save time. All that this motion aims at is the amendment from region to district and I am certain that quite a number of loafers in the Opposition who have never even been seen by their electoral colleges will be glad to receive this motion . Perhaps in future elections they may get an additional small number of voters as supporters . I think the House will agree that the present policy whereby as many as eight representatives represent one area is a thing unknown in parliamentary procedure. (Interjections) Another thing, when we formed this constitution we did not see the possibility of entering this House by the back door as in the case of the Opposition . Whether theOpposition likes it or not this motion is going to be passed so that we may eliminate the possibility of getting opposition from such obdurate persons . There will be no chance for a man to get into the Assembly merely because he has reiied on some important figure in his constituency. (Laughter) Even today there are certain members who are not known to the electorate, particularly the Leader of the Opposition. He is unknown. He has never had one meeting in the locations, except in the Engcobo district to go and interview Europeans there because he is representing the interests of the whites in the Transkei. (Interjections ) He has never set foot in the tribal courts . He is not used to tribal gatherings because he lives in town.

MR. C.S. MDA: He is prevented by Proclamation 400.

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THE CHIEF MINISTER: That Proclamation is intended for murderers . Go and see what is happening in Grahamstown. There are quite a lot of murderers in the Opposition. I am surprised that such important members as the Paramount Chief there sit in this Assembly with murderers. (Interjections),

01 THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please.

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hat be is kei als Act 25, ing ion jon jor ner

SO ant do ase that

MR. T.H. BUBU: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I do not think it is in accordance with the rules of this House that the hon. the Chief Minister should refer to the members of this side of the House as murderers. I think you should call upon him to withdraw.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: I withdraw, Mr. Chairman. This amendment will enable the electorate to know what people they are electing because whenever there are meetings at the Great Places or at the magistrates' offices they will get to know one another. People from Butterworth, or Kentani should not go and interfere with elections in Tembuland when they do not even know the candidates. The candidates from Nqamakwe know the people in that area, whereas the people from Tsomo do not. What happens is that these people come by night and mislead the residents , because some people are in the habit of holding meetings at night and not by day. Even as it is, the new member for the Opposition should not be here today if things had been done according to the voting because the Govemment party had 8,000 votes whereas the Opposition had only 4,000. (Interjections) . That shows clearly that the Nqamakwe residents have no knowledge of this member. This is the last time he will come here. He will not attend after 1968. I am sure the Opposition will not oppose this motion because there is going to be a fair fight and the candidates will not rely on certain important

persons . Now to come to section 25. Some people are not natural leaders . You know what happens when chieftainship is created. (Interjections) . I was bom a chief. (Interjections ) Ndamase himself is the first son of Faku. I am a paramount chief in the same way as Paramount Chief Poto. I was not made a paramount chief · I was bom a paramount chief. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order. THE CHIEF MINISTER: This section is important in that we would not like to see the present paramount chiefs or chiefs in the Assembly here pushed out simply because new chieftainships have been created. This section is really doing away with the trouble that arises when a certain chief has been appointed, say in the Qumbu district, and that affects the chiefs in the Mount Frere district. It provides that the chiefs in the Mount Frere district can have nothing to do with the elections in the Qumbu district. They must remain in the Mount Frere district from where they will come to the Assembly. It is important in that it will stop the possibility of a chief like Chief Wabana Makaula being pushed out simply because other chieftainships have been created. We want the Qumbu district to vote for Qumbu candidates because we already know what Qumbu chiefs will not come to this Assembly. (Laughter) He has long been telling the people not to vote for the chiefs and we shall now see what will happen when he tells people not to vote for the chiefs. This is quite clear to the chiefs. It is an important amendment in that it will do away with the possibility of chiefs being ousted from the Assembly because additional chieftainships have been created. In other words, Mr. Chairman , I have no axe to grind in this matter. It is merely a protection of traditional leadership and I think it is understood by the chiefs on the Opposition side. If certain people on the other side do not understand the value of chieftainship and oppose this motion I hope the hon. paramount chiefs and chiefs on the Opposition benches will vote with the Govemment party. Fortunately both the ex-leader and the Leader of the Opposition are reasonable people and I am sure they must have explained the motives of this motion even to the most thick-headed member on that side. Thank you, Mr. Chaiman. THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS: I second, Mr. Chaiman. MR. T.H. BUBU: Mr. Chaiman and hon. members, in the first place I want to say I am surprised, and indeed shocked, to hear the words that have been used by the hon. the Chief Minister in connection with this motion . We thought on this side of the House that in moving this motion he was merely trying to make the government of the country smooth and pleasant, but we can see now from the content of the words he has used that he is trying to recapture what he has lost in the past. We want to assure him that if he lost the elections on the basis of regions in the past, he is still going to continue to lose them on the basis of districts . In so far as the aspect of excluding and including chiefs is concemed, we also note that he wants to exclude certain members . If he does it in accordance with the law, it is all right but we think the words he has used in promoting the ends of this motion are not worthy at all. They are not worthy of the high member he claims to be. In speaking to the motion I want to say that this side of the House has no

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objection to it....

motion as amended to the House so that we formally agree.

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear, hear. THE SECRETARY : The question before the House is a motion by the hon. the Chief Minister to which an amendment was proposed by the hon. Mr. T.H. Bubu and accepted by the mover. I shall put the question .

MR. BUBU: ....because we look in effect to the fact that we shall be removing all the hindrances he has been planning to put in our way. We wish however to ask the hon. the Chief Minister to accept the amendments that we wish to make. These are as follows: The addition of a clause 2(a) after clause 2, to read as follows: "The district electoral college of chiefs where one or more chiefs are to be excluded from membership of the Assembly shall meet before nomination day of the candidates for the general election. " Regarding the lower part of the motion we have this insertion to make after (c) : "Provided that it shall be pemissible for the aspirant candidate who is a registered voter in a given region to contest the election in any district situate within that region. " I do not think it is necessary for me to elaborate on this .

fis

The motion as amended was carried unanimously.

CH

MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I do not know why the House should adjoum now when there are still some notices of motion which have not been dealt with.

N 1

THE CHAIRMAN: There is a motion here by the hon. Mr. Bubu but we had already agreed that we close so I cannot accept this motion to be moved today. If I allow him to put these motions today ...

AN GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: No.

CH MR. GUZANA: These motions were already in the hands of the Secretary when this proposal to adjoum the House was made and I think it lies in

MR . K.M. GUZANA: I second the amendment, Mr. Chaimman.

S

your discretion, Sir, to give Mr. Bubu an opportunity to move these motions .

THE CHIEF MINISTER: I am sure this side of the House will gladly accept the amendments .

THE CHAIRMAN : I am afraid I cannot do that N unless we come back at 2.15.

APOLOGIES.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chaiman, I have already moved the adjournment of the House.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I just want to report, as Leader of the Go vemment side, that the hon. the Minister of Education is not present this moming. He is addressing a very important meeting which he scheduled some time back in Ugie, which is his constituency. The hon. Chief Xakatile is still indisposed. The Paramount Chief of the Xhosas is also absent because of ill health. I am told that the hon. Chief Jongilizwe Ntola....

N

MR. T.H. BUBU: But, Mr. Chairman, it must be remembered that this day was set aside for notices of motion. It is the last day for handing in motions. It is my right to ask the Chaiman to allow them to be taken on Monday.

togo THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, we went through Item 5 and we disposed of it. Notices of 0. motion were given and the whole agenda has been completed. That is why I move the adjournment of the to House until 11 a.m. on Monday. In any event we e refuse to carry on this aftemoon.

MR. B.S. RAJUILI: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I thought there was a motion in front of the House other than about people who may have gone canvassing for the general election . (Laughter) We have not been advised that the motion has been disposed of.

THE CHAIRMAN : We will now vote on whether we should come back at 2.15.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: I think we disposed of that motion because we agreed to the amendment.

The motion to adjourn the House was carried. The assembly adjoumed until 11 a.m. on Monday, 25th April , 1966.

THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . paramount chiefs and hon. members, I take it the House is agreed on the amendment. I wonder if there is any vote needed?

MONDAY , 25TH APRIL , 1966.

THE MEMBERS: Agreed . The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.

18

THE CHAIRMAN : The House will adjoum until 2.15 this afternoon. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, why adjoum until 2.15? This is the last item on the agenda. With due respect, Sir, I would request that we adjoum until 11 a.m. on Monday.

Prayers were read.

The votes and proceedings of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENT BY CHAIRMAN .

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , I think we have to respect our rules even if we are all in agreem tnt on a point. The motion was put and seconded, and an amendment was proposed, seconded and accepted. I think the proper thing is to put the

Members of this Assembly occasionally but at very rare intervals use Afrikaans in this Assembly and then seem to enjoy the slight embarrassment caused when an Afrikaans interpreter is not available on the spot. I wish to stress the fact that an Afrikaans interpreter is always available within the precincts of this building, but because Afrikaans is

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174

so seldom used it would be wasteful and unnecessary to keep such an interpreter full time in the Assembly Chamber itself. It will consequently be appreciated if any member who intends to use Afrikaans will give the Secretary of the Assembly a few minutes ' prior notice of his intention to do so.

"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of: (a) investigating the deplorable conditions under which labourers on the roads as well as those labourers connected with Govern-

TRANSKEI STANDING RULES AND ORDERS BILL, 1966 FIRST READING .

(b) reviewing the wages paid to such labourers with a view to the improvement of such wages."

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon . members, I move that the Transkei Standing Rules and Orders Bill, 1966, be now read a first time.

ment's agricultural and/or industrial projects live;

37. Mr. H.H.T.N. Bubu gave notice to move :"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government -

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second, Mr. Chairman.

Agreed to.

(a) to expand and to accelarate its programme of hospitalisation in the Transkei with a view to bringing medical services within the reach of all people at minimum cost to them ; (b) to place more adequate subsidies at the disposal of existing hospitals as conditions at these hospitals suggest the contrary is true.

The Bill was read a first time. TABLING OF REPORTS OR DOCUMENTS. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table the Official Gazette No. 65 of 25th February, 1966, in which Government Notice No. 83 announcing the General Regulations for Tribal and Regional Authorities is contained .

THE CHAIRMAN : I will call upon the hon. the Minister of Justice to move his motion. EXTENSION OF PERIOD FOR NOTICES OF MOTION. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move: THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members of the House, this House will remember that on Friday I gave notice of motion which appears on page 2 of today's order paper, but I do not see anything about it in the order paper for today and that motion specifically said that on Monday, 25th April, this motion would be introduced. I wonder when the Chairman will grant us the indulgence to go on with this motion.

E

MR. O.O. MPONDO: Mr. Chairman, I want to direct the minds of the Assembly to the complaint we have in connection with our motions . There is an office where these motions are typed. We find that the person who is doing the typing there is dealing with matters other then the motions and he puts aside the motions because he has no time for them. The hon. member for Qaukeni , Mr. Bubu , was given a promise that his motion would be typed and so he left it there.

"That motions by members on this side of the House be allowed to be introduced. ”

I think this motion is quite in order. Formerly we were allowed to introduce notices of motion here spreading over almost the entire period of the session. Unfortunately at the present session we have only been given two days but on this side of the House it is not our intention to speak on behalf of the members across the floor whose ideas we do not know. That is why the request is that this side of the House be allowed to introduce notices of motion today. The motion is self-explanatory and I do not think it is necessary for me to expatiate on it, particularly as this side of the House is quite clear on the motion. We do not know what is happening across the floor.

THE CHAIRMAN : I will now call for notices of motion. THE CHIEF MINISTER: ' On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I do not think the leave of this House has been obtained. I think it is proper to put it to the House as to whether they agree that we allow these motions today in accordance with the regulations . That was a stipulation, Mr. Chairman. We do not want you to open the door and allow motions every day because this is not a debating chamber for motions. We are here to deal with the laws of the country.

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THE CHAIRMAN: I do not think I will allow all motions, but I will allow the hon. Mr. Bubu an opportunity.

MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. the Minister of Justice should realise that once his motion is before the House it belongs to the House, and we would request that such motions should not be sectional in any way. Since he has moved the motion I wish to second it and to read the motion as contained in the order paper, meaning this side of House also.

The motion was carried. 38. Mr. M.H. Canca gave notice to move : "That in the opinion of this Assembly the time has now come for the Republican Government to transfer the following Departments of State to the Transkei Government in addition to the Department of Public Health which was the subject of an affirmative resolution in the 1964 session:(a) Department of Posts and (b) Department of Transport. (c) Department of Information.

NOTICES OF MOTION.

36. Mr. H.H.T.N. Bubu gave notice to move:-

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Telegraphs ;

That the Transkei Government should request the Republican Government to amend the Constitution accordingly. "

NO-CONFIDENCE.

MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. members , I move :

Chairman and hon.

39. Mr. N. Jafta gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of asking the Republic Government to review the Transkei Constitution to make provision for an Upper House for chiefs and a Lower House for elected members. "

40. Mr. B.S. Rajuili gave notice to move : "That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to meet 75% of the cost of properties and for business centres that may be purchased by Africans as a result of the Zoning Proclamation of the towns and villages in the Transkei . ' 41. Mr. L.A. Luwaca gave notice to move:" That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of installing electricity in all Transkei villages . " 42. Chief S.S. Majeke gave notice to move:"That in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should consider the advisability of extending financial assistance in the maintenance of twins, triplets etc. born of any resident in the Transkei. "

43. Chieftainness Nozizwe A. Sigcau gave notice to move :"That in the opinion of Government should consider introducing a feeding scheme Primary Schools to lessen the from drought in the Transkei. '

this Assembly the the advisability of in all Transkeian starvation resulting

THE CHAIRMAN : I hope hon. members will realise that although I have given them the opportunity to give notice of motion this morning I will not do it again.

SUSPENSION OF RULE 67 . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have already moved that Rule 67 be suspended in order to allow the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to move his motion of no confidence this morning. I move accordingly , Mr. Chairman, and I hope the hon. member will second me. MR .

K.M. GUZAN : Mr. Chairma , whilst A n welcomi t m , may I request the hon . the ng he otion Chief Minister to couple in that motion Rule 30 ( 1 ) dealing with the duration of a member' speech in s this House .

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , I also move that rule 30 be suspended in so far as the Leader of the Opposition only is concerned , and also the leader of the Government party.

"That this House has no confidence in the Government. "" ’

This is an opportunity , Sir, which is available to the Opposition for it to make a critical appreciation of Government policy and its administration during the past years , and that opportunity is made available to the Opposition because its policy is usually diametrically opposed to the policy of the Government. The Opposition seeks to watch the Govern ment in its policy implementation to find out whether or not it is consistent with its policy. The Govemment has been in power for almost exactly two 12 years and four months and they connot come to us and say: We have not had time to begin with projects that will realise our policy. During that period they have either fulfilled certain objectives or are in the process of fulfilling those objectives and that window-dressing is not going to cover up their failures , for now they should be in a position to say: We have done this , that and the other to benefit not only the residents of the Transkei but also, and specifically, the citizens of the Transkei. For, if the Government party subscribes to the EC policy of separate development, it should have by now implemented projects for separate development and, casting policy aside, there are certain things which should have been done by the Government for the people of the Transkei irrespective of political affiliation . The danger here lies in the fact that governments always claim credit for projects that have been initiated by a previous government and I have noticed, and this side of the House has noticed, a predilection in that respect on the part C of the Government of the Transkei. The Government has boastfully announced the Qamata irrigation scheme as if it is its own baby . We have not even seen the adoption papers for it to take it over from the Republican Government, but if you visit the office of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry when he starts talking about the Qamata irrigation scheme you wonder whether or not you are going to be covered over with water whilst you are talking to him. (Laughter) This Government has taken credit for the phormium tenax experiments, the trial growth of cash crops , the rehabilitation scheme, afforestation, and yet they have not initiated these schemes in the Transkei. They are merely carrying on from where the T.T. A. left off. So the question still remains : What has the Government of the Transkei done for the people of the Transkei? Has this Government given the people of the Transkei a hope in the future? Have the activities of the Government during the past two years four months given the people the assurance that the Transkei is going to develop prosperously in the future? If the Government is not able to do this then it has been fiddling whilst Rome was burning. We will begin therefore with what has been the sing-song of the Government party · namely, the zoning of what are alleged to be white spots in the Transkei. It is only since the beginning of this year that zoning has become a practical accomplishment. From the noise that the Government has been making over zoning for the last two years, one would have thought that something great was going to come out of zoning. i THE CHIEF MINISTER : You are opposed to it, are you?

The motion was carried.

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MR . GUZANA: You will soon know what my opposition is and may I point out right now that with your zoning you have been catapulted into a multi-racial society. If my facts are correct, 1 think ten towns have been zoned black and 13 towns have been zoned partially black; and right on that point one has to ask the question: Why zone for anybody who is going out of the Transkei - if indeed there is any substance in the allegation that the white people are leaving the Transkei. One would have thought that the Government would have made representations to the Republican Government to have all the towns zoned black.

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THE CHIEF MINISTER: Would you support it? MR. GUZANA: I would not support it because it would be contrary to the policy of multi-racialism . But I am trying to educate the Government side to show them how they should implement their policy ofseparate development and not make these blunders . Now, what has zoning done to the Transkei ? The first result is that development in the areas that have been zoned black has come. to an end. There are no new buildings going up, no mortgage bonds can be passed over immovable property in these areas . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Whose property whites?

the

MR. GUZANA: Even yours. You are totally incapacitated in your Government capacity to do that. Those areas which are contiguous to areas that have been zoned black are kept in a state of uncertainty as far as the capital development of the areas is concerned. THE CHIEF MINISTER: You speak like Mr. Hughes.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Are you pleased about that?

0 MR. GUZANA: I thank you for the compliment indirectly paid to me by the hon. the Chief Minister, because if indeed I speak like Mr. Hughes I am in very good company because he was able to beat the Nationalist Party candidate in this consituency during the last general elections . (Laughter)

1

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going to benefit the Africans who have their areas zoned black. The Government side and, I am sure, the hon. the Chief Minister will agree that Africans receive very low wages and very low salaries , to the extent that they live from hand to mouth. The result is that they are unable to build up a reserve of money to enable them to buy properties which sell at comparatively high market prices. One would have thought that the Government of the Transkei would have synchronized an improvement in the salaries of its civil servants with the publication of the zoning proclamation in order to make it possible for them to take advantage of this privilege, enabling them to buy properties in these areas. But what has happened? There was a hurry and scurry among the civil servants to take advantage of zoning; there were approaches to capitalists and to building societies and money-lenders, but these people were not aware of a provision in the proclamation prohibiting people. who are not citizens of the Transkei from acquiring rights in these properties. Those building societies who have helped Africans out in buying properties find it impossible to lend out money and have registered over immovable property mortgage bonds to secure the loans. So the African is just where he was before zoning became an accomplished fact. Then we find that the proclamation relating to zoning is silent on the time limit for members of the white race to continue to own property in an area that is zoned black. If indeed it was intended that the areas should be black, then I submit in conformity with the policy of separate development there would have been a time limit provision in that proclamation. One is not going to suggest that the Republican Government overlooked that fact but the Government is telling the Government of the Transkei that the white man is going to stay in the Transkei forever.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: On a policy of white supremacy with justice - if there is justice in white supremacy .

MR. GUZANA: I am very pleased because it is consistent with my policy, and I am sure you are displeased because it is inconsistent with your policy , if you have any policy at all. So the nonAfrican will continue to own property in a black area from generation to generation. They can will their properties; they can donate their property to members of a racial group other than black and they need not sell . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Leave it to us. We know what we are doing.

MR. GUZANA: The net result is therefore that there is no property development in these blackzoned areas .

E THE CHIEF MINISTER: Whose properties? You mean the white properties.

MR. GUZANA: The properties that have been zoned black and the properties adjacent to areas that have been zoned black. It was the hope of the Government that Europeans would be frightened out of the Transkei as a result of this partial zoning a slow process of strangulation. Fortunately the Europeans in the Transkei have not been frightened at all because you may call a piece of land black land, grey land, white land, yellow land , pink land and it is still land. Let us look at what advantage, if any, is going to be derived by the African from zoning. In effect it means that the African can now buy immovable property and have title to that immovable property , but let us look at this advantage and see whether or not it is indeed

-13-

MR. GUZANA: Thus we find that the proclamation is edgeways bringing about social mixing residentially. You only need to go over to Norwood, a suburb of Umtata, to realise what I am saying, and those who cannot find buyers are now renting out premises to Africans in that area while those who do not want to sell continue in occupation of their premises . THE CHIEF MINISTER: And under your policy? MR. GUZANA: They are living under our policy, but you flatter yourselves if you think it is a gradual implementation of separate development. THE CHIEF MINISTER : The Government can make a law at any time. MR. GUZANA: You have been bogged down in

multi-racialism and this side of the House has no quarrel with the effects of zoning, without allowing that it accepts zoning as such.

MR. GUZANA: The law was that Africans could not buy property in the towns · that is why we say the towns should have been declared open areas.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: What do you accept?

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Who would do that?

MR. GUZANA : This side of the House states quite categorically that the towns should have been declared open areas. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Who would make that declaration and how would you do it? MR. GUZANA: Properties in those towns would then be available for purchase by anyone who has the money to buy. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Thus squeezing out the Africans who have no money. MR . GUZANA: And the African who has not the money would be able to go to a building society and buy the property . THE CHIEF MINISTER:

He can do it now .

MR. GUZANA: There would then be no restriction against whites or white personnel acquiring rights over property purchased by an African as is the case under the zoning proclamation . THE CHIEF MINISTER: So you want the towns to be owned by whites who have the money? MR . G UZANA : By the whites , Coloured , s Indians , African who would be able to have morts gages raised over the propert w ies and ho would have the money to buy .

MR.

GUZANA:

The

Republican Government.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : How would you get them to agree to that? MR. GUZANA: As the Opposition I have to tell you to try that.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Suppose you were the Government, how would you do it? MR . GUZANA: I am not the Government now. I am telling you how you are failing as the Government.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: certain policy .

We are following a I

MR. GUZANA : You are following a certain policy but you are negating it. Now the next provision under this zoning proclamation enables the Transkei Government and other bodies to buy properties in these areas . Now I can see the Govemment waxing big on the prospects of becoming a capitalist Govemment under this proclamation . I can foresee a situation where the Government , because it has the funds , buys all the properties or a great portion of the properties available for sale to Africans. THE CHIEF MINISTER: The Goverment will buy the properties for them without making any profit.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: How would you do it? MR. GUZANA: That is simple. A, the seller, signs a deed of sale with B, a buyer. They agree on a price. THE CHIEF MINISTER: But the law does not allow it. MR. GUZANA: Following on that the property is registered in the name of the buyer and a mortgage bond would be passed over the property in favour of the seller, if there is an outstanding balance on the purchase price of the property . Simple , easy and straightforward · you should be able to understand that. THE CHIEF MINISTER: But how can you get over the law? You can theorize the whole day.

MR. GUZANA: I never indulge in abstract talk. I could take you across to Ncambedlana where what I am saying has been happening for the last 30 years or so. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Because you have property there you do not want Africans to have property in town .

MR. GUZANA: The building societies have been making money available to Africans to buy property in Ncambedlana. THE CHIEF MINISTER: And what about the law in regard to the towns?

MR. GUZANA: That would be a commendable thing if this Goverment can even consider being philanthropic to anybody , but philanthropy and the present Government are as far apart as the East is from the West; for, if I can read the mind of this Govemment, what it is looking forward to is a situation where it owns these properties , allocates them to their civil servants and squeezes blood out of those civil servants by imposing high rents on them. That is what this Government is looking forward to . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : How do you know? MR. GUZANA : How do I know? Your thinking is clear to me before you have uttered the words and I can go to sleep and whatever is then left of my intelligence once I am asleep is sufficient to cope with the Government. (Laughter) My submission is therefore that this Government is going to exploit its civil servants on the rentals it is going to charge these people. THE CHIEF MINISTER : They will purchase the properties. It will not be necessary to rent them. MR . GUZANA: If the civil servants buy the properties you have a provision under the civil service regulations in Government Notice No. 66 dated 24:12:65 - Section I (3) (i ) : “ An officer or employee becomes liable for rent for official quarters....", etc. and then I read: "I (3 ) (iii) Where official quarters are available failure to

-- 14 -

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occupy them shall not absolve an officer or employee from payment of rent or the performance of the other obligations of occupation. " So that if the civil servant buys in a zoned area and owns property and the Government has allotted to him a dwelling place , the civil servant whilst occupying his property will continue to pay rental in respect of the house which he does not occupy . THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is not the inten-

tion. MR. GUZANA: If that is not the intention then when is the Government going to put its intention in print when drawing up the regulations? It is no use having intentions. You have to put them on paper and express them for people to know them. I know of a situation in another town where a civil servant did not occupy a house allotted to him but was liable for the rental of that house to this Government. Is the leopard going to change its spots because there is a zoning proclamation? I think this Government should be reminded of a situation which brought financial ruination to a man who had faith in the intentions of this Government some two years back. So much was said about zoning that people were inveigled into coming to the Transkei because the white towns were going to be black and a medical practitioner gave up a lucrative business elsewhere to come to the Transkei to take

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advantage of these promises. There was difficulty in getting him to occupy the premises , but the Govemment with very acrobatic somersaults got him into this property. I commend the Government for its agility in that regard, (Laughter) but he could not start paying for the property until it had been sold back. He could not acquire ownership of the property and had to pay rental for that place , and the capital which he had originally for buying the property was consumed in rentals for the property. He has had to leave the Transkei in ignominy.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: He is heckling.

MR. GUZANA: I do not know if I were to call the grunts of a pig heckling, if this is heckling. THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are insulting a chief.

MR. GUZANA: I have neither said that the hon. member is a piglet, nor have I said that he is grunting like a piglet. I was merely making a general statement, but I think the cap fits the hon. the Chief Minister · that is why he is so uncomfortable . (Laughter) I therefore repeat that this Government has failed to improve the lot of Africans under its zoning system or what I might say is its adopted policy of zoning. THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is a negative approach . MR. GUZANA: If that is a negative approach I say the positive approach is to make the towns open areas. THE CHIEF MINISTER: How will you do it? MR. GUZANA: It is a question of how you will do it. THE CHIEF MINISTER: When you are in power (if you ever are ), how will you do it?

MR. GUZANA: Is it not in itself an admission of frustration on the part of the Chief Minister? Obviously any suggestion brought to him which is going to benefit the citizens of the Transkei is met with the question: How will you do it?

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THE CHIEF MINISTER: How will they be benefited when you want the whites to be kept in the Transkei ?

THE CHIEF MINISTER: How do you know that?

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MR. GUZANA: Because I know him. He was my fellow scholar at Fort Hare with you. (Laughter)

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THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: What about the world of politics?

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MR. GUZANA: In the world of politics he was very much in love with Government side, so I am informed, but I would like you to hear what he has to say about zoning and those who drew him out of his lucrative business into the Transkei and left him, as it were, in the lurch.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Shame ! MR. GUZANA: The question then can be asked: Is separate development not ruining some of our professional men, many of our workers , almost all the people of the Transkei? If this Government had not made zoning its own probably no criticism would be directed at it. CHIEF MAKOSONKE SIGCAU : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, look at the time. This speaker has spoken long enough. THE CHAIRMAN: Honourable member, I warn you for the second time to behave yourself.

MR. GUZANA: In order to save the hon. the Chief Minister from repeating this question I will bring a parrot to the House which says: How will you do it? (Laughter) We will pass on to education. I must say on this point that I sometimes feel a bit of uneasiness when it becomes necessary for me to criticize the hon. the Minister of Education for in my school days he was my mentor. At the time he did not have grey hairs, nor did he have bald head, but you only need to look at him now to know what is happening to his body, and, with all apologies, probably to his mind. (Laughter) It is the custom of the African that as the old man grows older his sons take over and usually young men are critical of the, shall we call it, aberrations of old age. Will you allow me to do that without casting any aspersions on you, Sir? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : With pleasure.

MR. GUZANA: During the 1964 session of the this House unanimously Legislative Assembly adopted recommendations made by a select committee on education. I can well remember how jubilant and happy the hon. the Chief Minister was when the report was brought to this House and it was moved and seconded that it be adopted, and this House adopted it. It was as if he had been emancipated from Bantu Education but, alas , we did not know what was going to happen thereafter. Probably I should not criticize the Chief Minister on this

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score, but rather direct the criticism to the Minister of Education. I think the hon. the Chief Minister will be with me all the time when I speak on education . This House agreed to model the syllabi to be followed in the various schools of the Transkei on the syllabi followed by the Cape Education Department in its schools, with adaptations to suit changed circumstances and different situations . This House was jubilant; the whole Transkei was jubilant; the whole of South Africa was jubilant, for here the people saw the mind of the African being emancipated and being led into a sphere of education that would prepare them for university education. Now we could see our youth receiving a proper educational foundation. In effect they would be getting what we want for them, not what somebody else thinks is good enough for them; and we felt that the Government side, whilst committed to the policy of separate development, was rejecting the concept of the inferior mind of the African , incapable of grappling with the abstruse and intricate problems of maths , physics, chemistry and non-practical subjects . But soon after the session had risen we had certain misgivings. The committees which went into the revision of the various syllabi were composed of employees of the Department of Education.... THE CHIEF committee.

MINISTER :

You

were

THE CHIEF MINISTER: On the result of your deliberations . MR. GUZANA: Commenting on the result of my deliberations was done when the House accepted in toto the recommendations of the committee. Then there should have been an implementation of those recommendations and it is then that the Government side projected itself, in enjoying a majority in those committees which were drafting the syllabi . The hon. the Minister of Education asks if I submitted a minority report.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: You were so irresponsible you did not even attend those committee meetings. MR. GUZANA: I did not want to fill up your wastepaper basket because that is what you do with minority reports. That is what one would expect from people who support a policy of separate development. They will not tolerate minority representations. (Interjections) THE CHIEF MINISTER : Your statement is an insult to your colleagues who were on the committee with you.

on that MR. GUZANA: Who were they?

MR. GUZANA: .... with a nominal representation of people not employed in the Department of Education . The result is that no amount of argument from anybody not employed in the Department of Education could gainsay what the Department of Education sought to have done in the schools , sought to have taught to our children in the schools. The result was that we had the old Bantu Education syllabi re-introduced under the term "Education syllabi".

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Why did you introduce it? You were on that committee . Are you criticizing your committee now?

MR . GUZANA: The representation in the committees that went into the drawing up of the syllabi was as ineffectual as the representation of the Opposition in the Business Committee. THE CHIEF MINISTER: side was not represented.

But the Government

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Nor was there any report from a minority . MR. GUZANA: Believe you me, the Government projected itself into this committee through its civil servants. (Interjections ) THE

CHIEF

MINISTER :

That

is

an unfair

THE CHIEF MINISTER: You know them. THE MINISTER OF uneasy in their seats .

EDUCATION:

They are

MR. GUZANA : I think the person who is going to become uneasy in his seat is the hon. the Minister of Education. At once the people were disillusioned. They realised nothing would come out of these recommendations. One found six or seven pages of the syllabus under the Bantu Education Department with only a phrase altered, and then it was said the syllabus had been remodelled . And to show that the Department of Education did not intend to implement the decisions of this Assembly, it failed to take the practical steps to make possible the teaching of a revised syllabus. One would have thought that the Department of Education would immediately have launched refresher courses for teachers. One would have thought that it would have started with intensive English teaching training centres in spoken and written English; that the Department would have made it possible for the teachers to attend for periods of four, five or six weeks at those schools without losing remuneration . The very fact that the parents chose English as a medium of instruction should have encouraged the Department of Education to make that election practicable in 1966. What do we have today? Can the hon. the Minister of Education stand up on his two feet and say: I have implemented the recommendations of this House.

allegation . MR . GUZANA: And if the hon. the Chief Minister says that is an unfair allegation we can tell you

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I will do that in due time.

what was happening at those committee meetings . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Why did you not submit a minority report?

MR. GUZANA: My fear is that due time is no time, because last year was due time and we did not have this. Now you say this year you will do it in due time. That means Never.

MR. GUZANA: We will respect the confidence of those committees but we can comment on the result of its deliberations .

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I mean I will reply to your questions in due time.

— – 16 –

20

MR. GUZANA: I had asked the hon. the Minister of Education if he could tell us what he has done to implement by practical ways the decisions of this House, and when I say " practical ways " I do not mean changing the name of a sub-inspector and calling him a circuit inspector. I want something more than that · something tangible to which I can hold on. Does the hon . Minister agree with that

THE CHIEF MINISTER: So you suggest that your language should never come above the others at any time. MR . GUZANA: I have not suggested that. If you had listened to what I have said you would not have made that comment.

interpretation?

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using the word in another meaning, a lot of milk comes through a dummy. (Laughter) We would like to avoid anything which is just a handicap or might result in a handicap in the education of our children. By implication, if Xhosa is going to be used as a medium of instruction in future, the African child will definitely be handicapped.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I am going to give you more than that. MR. GUZANA: I hope you are not promising me as a parent promises a child - a lollypop tomorrow, a lollypop tomorrow. Then, of course, we had the startling intrusion of the hon. the Chief Minister into this educational field , when a report in the Daily Dispatch was printed to the effect that he intends to have Xhosa as a medium of instruction in the Transkei schools.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Why do you harp on that, because I never said it should be immediately? MR. GUZANA: I am speaking within the context of your words at the present moment. Now the Department of Education under the hon. Minister is said to be engaged, through a committee, in examining and improving and developing Xhosa, and that indicates that this is not a matter to be implemented in the immediate future.

The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION . The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is correct.

The debate was resumed. NO-CONFIDENCE.

MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I had just made reference to a statement issued by the hon. the Chief Minister which appeared in the Daily Dispatch of last week, relating to the use of Xhosa as a medium of instruction ultimately in the schools of the Transkei. The hon. the Chief Minister will realise that I have been very fair in quoting him.

MR. GUZANA: But I never know the intentions of the hon. the Chief Minister because he never conveys them by word. One cannot help but become apprehensive when he makes a statement which seems to be at variance with the choice of the parent as regards the medium of instruction in these schools and, however much we like our language, we must concede the fact that it is at a disadvantage and will continue to be at a disadvantage for many centuries to come. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : As long as that?

THE CHIEF MINISTER: What is bad in that statement? MR. GUZANA: Now, Sir, there is nothing wrong in developing Xhosa to its fullest extent and one would like to see Xhosa developing into a modern language capable of expressing the finer shades of feeling, of passion and of sentiment, as a man or a woman becomes more and more westemized and civilised. One would like to see the language developing into a technical and scientific language, but we must not allow sentiment to cloud the realities of the present world for we must realise that at the present moment the Xhosa language can be regarded as non-existent in so far as the scientific world is

THE CHIEF MINISTER: You so much like the English language that you even forget your mother tongue . MR. GUZANA: I am telling you that it will be so and you will make a mistake. Therefore whatever statements we make we must determine that at the present moment we want the utmost development of the African child within the shortest possible time and therefore we should not contemplate handicaps in that regard.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: The whole matter is in good hands .

concerned.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Who moved that either of the two official languages should be the medium of instruction in this country? MR. GUZANA: That matter was raised in this House....

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Before that.

MR. GUZANA : Now the good hands of the Government do not seem to handle the situation properly . Firstly, when such an announcement should have come from the hon. the Minister of Education it comes from the Chief Minister who is a political figure and as such is not above political allegiances . And let me castigate this fallacy that a child develops quickly only when it is taught through the mother tongue .

MR. GUZANA: .... and it became the right of the parent to choose what language should be used.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : What are you talking about? You are wasting the time of the House.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: We moved that before this House came into existence.

MR. GUZANA: I must send the parent back to be taught. All he can say is : What are you talking about? (Laughter) Now I wish to state that English should be guaranteed as the language for instruction in our schools.

MR. GUZANA: I would not know what happened in the T.T.A. which you called a "dummy " but,

- 17 -

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Who told you there was a question of Mr. Ndamse? You are very curious.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: For ever? MR. GUZANA: The parents have decided so because English is the language of the world.

MR. GUZANA: It is a characteristic of the 1 Opposition that it should be very curious about everything the Government does , otherwise it fails to be the watchdog of the Government and of the 1 Transkei. We are advised and we know that Mr. Ndamse is a highly educated man ; that he would do credit to any educational office to which he is attached; that information is to the effect that the Service Public Commission recommended his

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : They had to choose between English and Afrikaans , Xhosa did not come into it. MR. GUZANA: They were allowed to choose between English and Afrikaans and they have made their choice and that choice should not be undermined by statements which suggest a contrary intention by this Government. I am also worried over the functions of school committees as defined in the Government Notice promulgating the control of schools and the functions of school committees in the Transkei. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Come to the point. You are criticizing the policies of the Departments . That is still to come .

MR. GUZANA: I refer to the official Gazette of the 26th March, 1965, where the powers and functions and duties of a school committee are defined.

Here one

gets the impression that the

school committee only acts in an advisory capacity to a regional authority and one would like to see this Goverment defining specifically the functions which become obligatory on a school committee . Whilst we are speaking on the subject of education I would like to make reference to a report which came to my knowledge some two or three months back, where it was reported that a circular had been issued by this Government to schools in the Ciskei not to accept students coming from the Transkei .

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Shame !

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Where is that circular?

appointment to a post in the Department of Educa tion; that this recommendation was made after Mr. Ndamse had been banned by the Republican Government; that up to now he has not taken up the post to which he has been appointed; that the Government is paying him a salary and this appears to this side of the House as an anomalous situation which cannot be condoned by a responsible Government. At this stage I would not like to draw conclusion on this situation because I still hope that during the present session we shall have a statement on Mr. Ndamse's appointment, and criticism would therefore be unfair to the Goverment. We hope that when the hon. the Chief Minister speaks to this motion he will make available to this House the facts relevant to the point raised by theOpposition. I In our view a principle is not involved and we feel 12 that the Government should take the House into its confidence and give us all the facts of the situation. Sir, one of the factors that seems to be quite general in all departments of this Government is a lack of initiative. I refer in this regard to the dillydallying that has bedevilled the establishment of a technical college in the Transkei. I think as early as 1962 there was talk of St. John's College being converted into a technical college. Now this Government has been in power for two years and four months and it has nothing to show under that heading. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Wait for the statement from the Minister.

MR. GUZANA: As a result a student who had applied to Lovedale and had been granted a bursary tenable only at Lovedale was unable to take advantage of that bursary.

MR. GUZANA: I think the period of gestation has been far too long and we shall have to perform an operation now. (Laughter).

THE CHIEF MINISTER : You are collecting a lot of gossip. Where is that circular?

MR.

GUZANA:

I

am

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Come to policies now. ti What is your policy? Tell us what it is . 2 MR. GUZANA: You have been told it many times and if you do not know it now, you will never know it. We would like to see this Government going into this question of a technical college being established at St. John's College with some deter mination.

speaking responsibly .

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Your daughter is in the Ciskei. MR . GUZANA: You could not keep her out, thank God. But there is a hardship imposed upon pupils who seek to get education in the Ciskei and come from the Transkei.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : What about a multiracial college? Why can't you call upon the Republican Government to establish a multi-racial college for your party?

THE CHIEF MINISTER : That is a wild allega-

tion. MR. GUZANA : The Department of Education has also brought into prominence a matter relating to the appointment of Mr. Ndamse to a post in that Department and since last year we have been hoping for a statement from the Government on Mr. Ndamse's position vis-a-vis this Government and the Department of Education in the Republic . Now we have been disappointed that almost four months have elapsed without the people of the Transkei being taken into the confidence of this Government over Mr. Ndamse's position.

MR. GUZANA: I am calling upon you. You are in front of me and you are the Government. This Government has just been folding its hands and doing nothing to benefit the people of the Transkei. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Read the recommendations of the select committee.

MR. GUZANA: What does that help me? Do the recommendations establish the college? I do

- 18-

not seek information on this point. I want a practical realisation of the idea. This Government is just sitting folding its hands and doing nothing about its own policy; nor is it doing anything to help the people of the Transkei to acquire skills. If, according to separate development, we are going to have our own garages , Our own mechanics, our own engineers, our own draughtsmen, our own architects, why is this Government sitting down and doing nothing about it? THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are in our way. MR. GUZANA: No, Sir, I am not in your way. All I am doing is asking you what you are doing to realise the policy of the Government for the Transkei. THE CHIEF MINISTER: But you don't want it.

MR. GUZANA: The fact that I don't want it does not mean that you have stopped trying to apply it, and if the policy is yours you apply it and I shall oppose you. But you do nothing about it. Have you ever, for instance, sent out to the local garage proprietors to find out whether or not they would take Africans as apprentices and train them? Have you explored the possibilities of training Africans as electrical engineers? The trouble is that the hon. the Chief Minister will not listen to these facts because he knows he has no reply and this Govemment therefore is failing in its duty and obligation to the people of the Transkei . It is one of the factors of this Government that whilst we

70%

eve OL

ete

ult Rep lle

T

have a Department of Justice , we have very little being done in that regard. We must commend the hon. the Minister of Justice in following up and implementing a suggestion accepted by this House · namely, the appointment of more and more Commissioners of Oaths to help the people in the locations , but he thought he had been given largesse to scatter all over the place and so he did not even consider the educational qualifications of the people he appointed as Commissioners of Oaths . Now that was an irresponsible thing to do because a Commissioner of Oaths takes statements on oath, which statements must be relied on even in a court of law and since the appointment of these Commissioners of Oaths no mention has been made of an attempt to train them in their work as Commissioners of Oaths . This brings me to the point which has always been worrying responsible people on the Opposition benches - namely, that this Government has consistently condoned the appointment of unqualified persons to act in a judicial capacity in matters relating to the status and property rights of persons.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: these people?

Where do you find

MR. GUZANA: We would like to see qualified personnel in the chiefs' courts . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Do you say the chiefs are not qualified to try cases ?

she

2D 14

MR. GUZANA: I think you are very sensitive about the chiefs because they form your majority. (Laughter) The duty of the Opposition is to put the chiefs right so that they become an intelligent Government-supporting group . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Are they not intelligent?

MR. GUZANA: Probably when they reach that stage they will leave the Government benches and come to the Opposition. (Laughter) But Native law and custom has come now to be case law and it is essential that those who administer this law should know something about it. We have been given the impression that the students trained at Jongilizwe were being prepared for such posts as were held by chiefs in a judicial capacity. Now we want to ask the Government where these Jongilizwe graduates end up. Does the Government concede that after the training they have had there, they are not sufficiently trained to staff the chiefs ' courts? Are we going to continue to connive at these irregularities in the chiefs ' courts ? Let me concede that some of the chiefs do their job very well indeed and I remember a case in which I became involved, coming by way of an appeal in the Emigrant Tembuland region, where the evidence had been reduced to writing, the reasons for judgement had been given and everything that could be desired from a court record was made available to the court of appeal which was the Native Commissioner's court.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : That is what all the courts do. MR. GUZANA: I can give you examples of misdirection , misinterpretation of the law, misapplication, resulting in hardship to the litigants. THE CHIEF MINISTER : What about your court at Sithebe? MR. GUZANA: You refused to appear at that court when the Paramount Chief summoned you there and you appealed to Pretoria, so you cannot speak about what is happening in the chiefs ' court at Sithebe. I just wonder what would have happened. THE CHIEF MINISTER: He had no jurisdiction. MR . GUZANA: Probably you would have got a whipping of six strokes. (Laughter) We would all be better off if you had had. The Department of Justice has neglected to look into the hardships suffered by people in the Transkei when they are complainants in criminal matters. I refer to a case of assault where a man or a woman has been assaulted and suffers weals , bruises , open wounds and contusions. The complainant goes to the charge office and the station commander or whoever is in charge has to decide whether or not the complaint should be accepted to become the subject of a judicial proceeding in the magistrate's court, or whether to refer it back to the chief's court. The Government will agree that such a situation places the officer in charge in a semi-judicial position to decide whether this is an aggravated assault or an assault common. We would like this Government to look into the matter and issue a directive which will be a guide to those who have to decide on these matters before they come before the courts . Whilst the next matter falls under the Department of Justice , I wish to point out that the Government has a way of using administrative matters for political gain. I can well remember the noise in Fingoland before the by-election which took place last year, when the hon. the Chief Minister anticipated the zoning proclamation and during canvassing before the byelection members of the Government side told the voters in Fingoland that they would be having a black magistrate in one of the towns situated in Fingoland, so that an important administrative matter became a vote-catching slogan.

-- 19 -

THE CHIEF MINISTER : You are abusing the time that has been allowed you. You will speak for half an hour next year. MR. GUZANA: The Government was handling an important matter frivolously. THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I think it will be in the interests of this House if the hon. Leader of the Opposition will appreciate my concession that he should be given more than half an hour. The idea was to give him a chance to go into questions of policy, not to deal with departmental matters which can be dealt with when the various Ministers put forward their policies to the House. He has a chance of criticizing the departments when they put forward their policy. I appreciate that he is a good preacher in the Methodist church but he should appreciate that he cannot be allowed to speak for more than two days. As it is we would like other speakers to put in their contributions. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, the hon. the Chief Minister and myself belong to the same church and he is reputed to be a preacher in that church. If I become longwinded you know what Methodists are. (Laughter) I shall not blame you for being long winded too. Further, Sir, these matters which are being raised at the present moment relate to the policy of the Government as translated by the different departments and they may be singled out to show up the failure of the Government to put its policy into practice. I now have a right to make a roving criticism of the Government. That is what I am doing. When we come to the various departments we are going to be more specific and the needle will go deeper, believe you me . This is a fair warning of what is coming and if the hon. the Chief Minister is indulgent enough to say that I have two days in which to speak I have hardly taken a quarter of a day. To come back to the motion of no confidence in this Government, Sir, I want to refer to Proclamation 400 and I want to deal in particular with the provisions relating to the issue of permits to people . who seek to hold meetings in the Transkei . Proclamation 400 is the subject of a notice of motion and I shall not deal with its defects and its demerits now. I shall deal with the provision relating to the issue of permits because that provision is being used and interpreted in such a manner that members of the Opposition are at a very great disadvantage. The application of this provision has resulted in members of the Opposition being unable to go to the people they represent in this House. Originally a member of this House seeking to hold a meeting applied to the magistrate for a permit and, generally speaking, the permit was issued on the turn. It was considered courteous for such an applicant to advise the headman of the area in which the meeting would be held of his intention to hold a meeting in that area at such-and- such a time on such-and-such a date. Now the screw is being applied on theOpposition in this way: In some districts , before a permit is issued for the holding of a meeting, the applicant has to get the approval of the paramount chief of that region or the head of the regional authority in that area. Now the difficulty is in locating the paramount chief or the head of the regional authority. First of all it is impossible to telephone them because only a few of them have telephones at their residences. One has to travel ten or 20 miles to the paramount chief for this approval, only to find that he is away from his residence and again

it means going to his place to get his approval. The nett result is that before a meeting can be held it must be arranged for about two months in advance, and a situation arises where the regional head or 5 paramount chief belongs to the opposite political party to which you belong. You find that he is reluctant to grant the permission authorising the magistrate to issue a permit. Now the application of this provision under Proclamation 400 has the effect of nullifying the representation of the people in this House and whilst we have been assured that Proclamation 400 will not be used for political advantage, this Proclamation is now being used to place the Opposition at a disadvantage. Members have had to cancel pre-arranged meetings simply because the head of the regional authority is a man who strays here, there and everywhere, but cannot be found. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Will you support an 1 amendment that the permit should be granted by the paramount chief or chief and not by the magistrate? MR. GUZANA: I shall not accept that because the principle is still the same when you have poli- ! 16 tical parties to which the paramount chiefs and chiefs belong. THE trators .

CHIEF

MINISTER:

They are adminis-

MR. GUZANA: And they cannot differentiate between what is political and what is administrative. We would like this anomaly put right administratively. It gives the members of the Government side a mean advantage over the Opposition and these people who have the right to give the approval are not sufficiently fair-minded to disabuse themselves of their political affiliation when they are requested to agree to the holding of a meeting. Now we come to the last point.

E PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU: There is no complaint from Qaukeni . MR. GUZANA: I am glad the hon. Paramount Chief from Qaukeni says this. Probably the Paramount Chief is not aware that a member of the Opposition made many attempts to contact him for this approval, without avail. PARAMOUNT CHIEF SIGCAU : I only had two days ' notice. MR. GUZANA: Well , is there any need to consider? All I have to do is to ring you up and you give the O.K. My worry is that the Government of Transkei is not doing anything for the people of the Transkei. It is concerned with ideological legislation and in the administrative work they do not get down to the bread-and-butter politics in which the man in the street is interested . Think of the peasant may I ask this Government whether or not it has made provision for the threatening famine which is facing the Transkei at the present moment? Has there been any statement that the Government is watching the position with a sharp eye to meet the famine if it should catch up with the people of the Transkei ? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: You will be told about that.

-- 20 -

MR. GUZANA : I know I shall be told about

that, but I might be dead by the time you tell me . By now the people would have welcomed such a statement and they would have been assured that this Government at least is concerned about their tummies.

meat factory. (Laughter ) With these remarks I want to point out quite clearly that the Government has failed in its duty in the Transkei. THE position.

CHIEF

MINISTER :

You can

take our

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: The people know

that.

MR. GUZANA: We are ready to take over if this is becoming a very hot potato for you to handle , but I think the fleshpots of Egypt to the Government party are too delicious to be given up and though they may be ineffectual they will stick to the Government benches . The hon. the Chief Minister has been asking us questions repeatedly as to what the whites of the Transkei say on the policy of multi-racialism. You got the answer in the general election.

MR. GUZANA: I think the trouble is that the Government, especially the hon. Ministers , are so well-treated that they forget that other people go to bed without a meal. They drive cars which are worth R2,000 and smash them up. Who cares? They are comfortable but there is somebody somewhere who cannot afford to buy a piece of bread for his own child of an evening.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is not the answer. That is white supremacy .

THE CHIEF MINISTER: How do you know that, because you do not go to the people? You sit in Umtata.

.

3

MR. GUZANA: It is amazing how I know everything - not amazing because I go to the people, but amazing to you because your "eye" has not been able to keep his eye on me all the time. Men who work on the roads eam a minimum of 50 cents a day. Their increment is 5 cents a year. Their maximum is 85 cents per day and it takes them almost six to seven years before they get to that maximum. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Should we tax you? MR. GUZANA: Before you think of taxing me (I must tell you that I am paying more in tax than you are doing), if only you would give up your monthly allowance; if only you would be more responsible in using the cars ; if only you would save on this lavish expenditure, these men working on the roads would get an increment. It is alleged that these men have a five-day week instead of a six-day week, but in working time they are putting in more during the five days than they did during the six-day week. This Government wants to tax the people just because it wants to live lavishly instead of exercising economies that will benefit the people of the Transkei . You know ex-President Nkrumah is not without his satellites. (Laughter) We have heard talk about the establishment of industries in the Transkei. I remember the hon. the Chief Minister indicating to this House that white capital would be allowed into the white areas under certain conditions, but what has been done in that direction? Where are the industries and the factories about which you speak so glibly. I have heard that the de-boning factory is beginning to take shape and that someone is going round the country buying stock in preparation for the meat-canning industry, but the Government has been speaking about this factory since it came into power and up to now they have not realised their ambition and they don't tell us why they have not done so. Why is it that the Government does not tell us when it meets up with a difficulty?

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : There is no difficulty.

MR. concept.

GUZANA:

They rejected the Bantustan

THE CHIEF MINISTER : They lost ten more seats to the Nationalists. MR. GUZANA: I am speaking about the constituency which more or less in its boundaries coincides with the boundaries of the Transkei, where you seek to realise a Bantustan, where you have Europeans residing and exercising a vote in the Republican elections and they have rejected separate development. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Are you an appendage of the United Party? MR. GUZANA: An appendage is usually cut off and dies. I think the Government side in its policy is definitely an appendage of the Nationalist party, and one of these days there will be an operation without anaesthetics and woe betide those miserable, dismembered members of the Government side who have nothing to feed on, to feast on, to parasite on . (Laughter) It surprised me to read last week in the Daily Dispatch that the Chief Minister thought that multi-racialism means marrying white ladies... THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is what it means. Don't you want to marry the whites? MR. GUZANA: .... and he thinks that multiracialism is synonymous with integration and that is as far as he can think · no further than what he thinks are physical pleasures to himself and his body. That is not the policy of multi-racialism. THE CHIEF MINISTER: What is it?

MR. GUZANA: The policy of multi-racialism respects the individual as a member of a racial group. It recognizes a society in which different races live together without losing their identity, seeks to see a man reach the ceiling on merit rather than on favouritism ; and I think when we look at the members on the other side and assess their merit we have really a full and a devastating criticism of separate development. (Laughter)

MR. GUZANA: If there is no difficulty then why does the Government not get a move on? I thought the hon. the Minister of Agriculture would tell us that the difficulty was in getting stock to slaughter. I would not have asked him to look anywhere for that stock. He would be the first offering to that

- 21

CHIEF MAKOSONKE SIGCAU : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I wish to criticize the hon. Mr. Guzana for the words he has used. He should not come here and say things like that. The world is watching us.

THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. GUZANA: I welcome the comment of the hon. member from Qaukeni . I was not decrying the European. I was commending the European. To come to my last point · on Wednesday last week at the stadium the hon. the Chief Minister commended the police force of the Republic and of the Transkei. He indicated his gratefulness to the South African Police by observing that those who form the nucleus of the Transkei police force will form the basis on which further development will take place. He further stated that the police of the Republic were worthy of praise and gratitude from the people of the Transkei. Now these Transkei police are the products of the Republican police and personnel of the South African Police are stationed in the Transkei to train the Transkei police. They are doing a most commendable piece of work in the Transkei and I am sure the Government side is grateful to them, as much as we are. I want to suggest to the Government and especially to the Chief Minister a way in which you can show your gratefulness. These devoted men who keep the peace in the Transkei do not receive the Transkei allowance payable to other civil servants seconded to the Transkei . This applies also to civil servants in the Posts and Telegraphs Department and also in the Railways and Harbours Department. All these people are rendering invaluable service to the people of the Transkei and yet they have this discrimination against them. Will this Government not make representations to the Republican Government on their behalf so that they should receive this Transkei allowance which is paid to seconded civil servants ? They are doing a fine job. They are making the Transkei work and tick and habitable and yet they are at this disadvantage. In summing up I say this side of the House has no confidence in the Government of the Transkei ; that the Govemment has failed to implement its policy; that there are insuperable difficulties in its way; that they had better surrender and put through this Assembly a flag bill with one colour · white only, the colour of surrender and let the Opposition take over vigorously from this sleepy Government. I move this motion , Sir.

MR. O.O. MPONDO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to second the motion.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members of the House, before I speak to the motion I wish to move an amendment by deleting all the words after " House " and substituting therefor the following: " ...has full confidence in the Government."

In the first place , Mr. Chairman, I thought my friend, the Leader of the Opposition , would not touch upon elections for the Republican Parliament because the whites of the Transkei have demonstrated without any shadow of doubt that they do not accept the policy of the Opposition - namely, multiracialism. They voted for Mr. Hughes who stands for a policy of white supremacy. They even add "with justice" as if white supremacy ever had any justice. This now comes to what we are always asking them : With whom are they going to establish this policy of theirs in the Transkei ? Last year we asked them how many whites had joined their party. They could give no satisfactory reply . I do not know what their difficulty is possibly it is that the

Leader of the Opposition has failed to explain to the electorate exactly what multi-racialism means. Only this morning he left the beaten track and said this is not multi-racialism . If multi-racialism does not mean total integration , the enjoyment of all hotel facilities, inter-marriage, etc. , what does it mean? I am not surprised at the love the Leader of the Oppo- 12 sition and some of the members show for the whites of the Transkei. The retired Leader of the Opposition was brought up under the tutelage of whites. I refer to Mr. Barrett. (Interjections) I was brought up by my father. I never enjoyed mealies with the whites. The Paramount Chief of the Tembus was also brought up by another white. My friend over there is reported to have grown up with whites and to have enjoyed their mealies. You cannot wean such people from that way of life. I commend my friend across the floor for taking advantage of the position of leading a moribund party. What he should have done was not to move a vote of no confidence in the Government but first a vote of no confidence in his own party, because even though they state they are following a policy of multi-racialism they do not all follow that policy and that is why occasionally it breaks and that is why you will find some people among them committing acts which others among them do not subscribe to That is why I think the first thing he should have done was to move a vote of no confidence in his policy - if he has any, because that party has no policy whatsoever. He has gone on to pick out faults here and there but the important thing is: What has EN the Transkei Government done for the people? He did not touch upon one important thing which is 20 common to every nation. For three hundred years , since contact with the whites, we have been deprived of land by the whites. For the first time a proclamation has been passed enabling Africans to own land here, which land they have got from the South African Native Trust. Now they will be owners of land in the Transkei. My honourable friend across the floor would like to have made no negotiations in this respect. For your information it was the negotiations between the Transkei Government and the Republican Government which has given rise to the position that land will now belong to Africans in the Transkei . That would have been impossible under your policy because no province has ever been known to hold its own land. You are suggesting that the Transkei should be brought down from its present legislative position to where the people would not be able to formulate any laws. I will not say that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has purposely left out this point, because he knows the question of land is a very important one. In respect of zoning I remember distinctly that my hon. friend said it was a dream that land would belong to anyone in this country, but it has happened and he goes to pick out faults here and there - faults which are weak because any Government has its faults . The achievements of the Transkei Government will be described by my colleagues but I want to just dwell on the speakers themselves to show they will not be able to effect any improvements at all if they get into power. I distinctly remember a speech by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition which he made in Pondoland in whether 1963. I do not care how you travelled there it was by motor-car, aeroplane or donkey , but I remember he made this speech. He said: "If the white man is brainy then let him rule the world. " Must we now hand over the government of the Transkei to people who in tum will hand it over to the whites? I will refer to another statement which he made jointly with the leader of the party in Cape Town. They did

- 22 -

not attend that meeting but they sent a document. In the first place I am surprised there are chiefs in the Opposition who are running the risk of being expelled from chieftainship . This is what they said , and apparently my hon. friend, the Paramount Chief, knows he is already near his end so he does not cherish chieftainship. He said: "But if the present political involvement is feared for the perpetuation of chieftainship • • ." I do not know what the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase has to say about it because he was the mover of the motion that chieftainship should never be disturbed, but apparently his party is the first to take steps towards the destruction of chieftainship. He further said: "As we see the future, our hope is that since the homelands have come to us they should be regarded as provinces of the Republic and their Government should enjoy no more than provincial status. "

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Shame ! THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: In other words, as the Transkei Government now has five departments of state which legislate independently, it is now suggested that these departments should make legislation which will be approved of by the Republican Goverment for these departments. (Interjections) It is a pity we have a newcomer here who cannot even respect his own positoin. He must sit down and learn . I do not know whether it is because he knows he is only going to be in this House for one and a half years , after which he will be liquidated when we liquidate most of those people on the other side , especially the most stupid ones. (Laughter) Now I wonder whether the no-confidence motion in this Government means that the party must be put into power which will bring down the status of this government? Again , people who must take over the govemment must be people upon whom reliance can be placed to effect the achievements which they have promised. I do not understand how confidence can be placed in people who make a decision and upset it the next day. Last year in this House a unanimous decision was arrived at in relation to the question of a flag for this country. We decided that the matter should be placed above political considerations. I remember the speech of my hon. friend, the Leader of the Opposition , on page 311 of the Blue Book. He said : “... that we, as members of the Legislative Assembly, forget ting our political affiliations, should go out into the Transkei and tell the people about the flag; " and further on: "I think we will forget about those people with political obsessions on all matters that are raised in this House and we should try our very best at all times to keep this matter above the political battlefield . " But what happened? At the first meeting I heard him address at the location at Ngangelizwe ... OPPOSITION MEMBER: Where were you? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It is true I was not present, but the position is the same as when you produced a circular here which you read. Anyway, he was the first person to criticize this flag at a meeting of the Democratic Party . He made things worse at a meeting attended by Pondos in the name of the Democratic Party , when my hon. friend, the Paramount Chief, invited Pondos who were half clad in loin-cloths . However, whatever it was , it was a conference of the Democratic Party. An allegation was made at that meeting to the effect that the flag was not being accepted. I cannot say what happened to the decision made in this House. I do not know

what the hon. Mr. Rajuili thought, because what he said was: "The world is looking at us once we say we are going to lift a matter out of politics, and it hears us.'""

MR. B.S. RAJUILI: I still say that. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Now what have you to say about your friends ? They agreed it was to be above party politics but they made use of it for this purpose . As far as the suggestion is concerned that the Transkei Government is idle and doing nothing, questions have been asked as to where the industries are. It is said a promise was made of a meat industry and the question has been asked: When is it going to start? Just because some of them are like mushrooms they think that factories grow up like mushrooms. You sometimes find politicians who spring up like mushrooms after a storm. We are not going to follow that , because mushrooms when scorched by the sun wither up. The establishment of an industry wants time and planning. The place where it is to be established must first be decided upon and it must also be ascertained whether or not raw material will be available and whether power will be available . These things are not decided haphazardly. Mr. Chairman, among my friends across the floor is a member who is absent the hon. Mr. Diko , who came into this Assembly and made a big noise about the Lambasi scheme. He alleged that people had been killed out there. I would like the hon. member to make another visit to Lambasi and repeat what he said and we shall see whether or not he will come back next year. (Interjections) Most fortunately I do not employ witchdoctors to kill other people. Tea- growing and coffee-growing have started at Lambasi. MR. C.S. MDA: They are only experiments. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : They are not experiments. It is being done on a large scale. You do not even visit those places although it is near your own home because you love the whites so much you spend your time roaming about the streets here looking for the whites . When this tea is ready in about three years ' time then there will be machinery to put the finishing touches to it. (Interjections) You do not know what you are talking about because tea-growing is undertaken there by the Department of Agriculture of the Transkei. It only shows that those members have no interest in what is taking place in the Transkei because they have not even been to Lambasi. All they can say is that Proclamation 400 is interfering with their meetings, and what is more it is not true that people are prevented from holding meetings. What actually happens is that the people fix a date for the meeting before they go to the chief or magistrate. What is your difficulty in going out to get permission? I want to tell you even before you move your motion , that Proclamation 400 will not be done away with as long as there are still murderers in the Transkei and other people who go and get people like Mr. Doubt to kill other people. It will never be removed. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second the amendment, Mr. Chairman.

The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned Tuesday, 26th April, 1966.

- 23 --

until

11

a.m.

on

TUESDAY, 26TH APRIL, 1966

for the banning of Mr. C.M. Ndamse. (b) What has Mr. Ndamse done to deserve it and whether he has been tried in open Court?

The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.

Prayers were read. The votes and proceedings of the previous day were taken as read and, after amendment, confirmed.

REPLY : (a) No. (b) I am unable to furnish the required information.

ANNOUNCEMENT

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon . members, I wish to announce that the debate on the no-confidence motion will end on Friday this week.

QUESTIONS QUESTION 1. Mr. G.S. Dana asks the Chief Minister: (a) Whether the Chief Minister is in a position to state that the Transkei will have black administrators capable of running the country within a decade?

QUESTION 5. Mr. H.H. Zibi asks the Minister of Education: What arrangements are being made in connection with the African school in Matatiele town to bring it into line with the other schools in the Transkei and what of the farm schools in the same district. REPLY: The honourable member is referred to my reply to question No. 15 put by him and replied to on Tuesday, 4th May, 1965. The position has not changed.

(b) Whether the Minister will make a statement in that regard? REPLY : (a) Yes, we will. (b) No statement is necessary in view of my unequivocal reply to (a)

QUESTION 2. Mr. G.S. Dana asks the Minister of the Interior:(a) "Whether qualified Africans in the Transkei Civil Service enjoy the same salaries and promotion as the Whites?

C The same position obtains with regard to the farm schools in the matatiele district.

MR. ZIBI: Mr. Chairman, our contention is that the parents of the children at these schools are citizens of the Transkei and the parents who live and work in the Matatiele farms are Transkeians and they vote. Does it now mean that the children of those parents are not Transkeians just because Matateile, according to the new Transkei , is declared white? THE CHAIRMAN : Excuse me, hon. member, are you asking a question now or what are you doing?

(b) If not, why not?" REPLY: (a) The Department of the Interior is not responsible for the determination of salary scales for civil servants. The question should be directed to the Department of the Chief Minister.

MR. ZIBI: It arises from the reply to the question , Mr. Chairman.

THE CHAIRMAN: If you are asking a question you should write your question . MR. ZIBI: I was merely discussing the reply, Mr. Chairman.

(b) Falls away . THE CHAIRMAN : I think you should sit down.

QUESTION 3. Mr. G.S. Dana asks the Minister of Justice : (a) Whether the Minister of Justice has taken or intends to take steps to investigate the activities of the secret society namely, the Sons of the Transkei.

MR. ZIBI : Unfortunately the Chairman is not consistent with what he has been doing all along. NO-CONFIDENCE The debate was resumed .

(b) If not, why not? (c) If so, whether the Minister will make a statement in that regard? (d) If not, why?

REPLY: (a) No. (b) There is as yet no reason to do so. (c) and (d) fall away.

MR. O.O. MPONDO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , as the one who stood up yesterday in support of that motion , the House might perhaps expect me to be the first speaker this morning. I wish to draw the attention of the House to the fact that I did so in the absence of the member who was supposed to second the motion yesterday, in my capacity as the Chief Whip. The speaker this morning will be the hon. Mr. C.S. Mda.

QUESTION 4. Mr. G.S. Dana asks the Minister of Justice : (a) Whether the Minister of Justice is in a position to inform the Legislative Assembly the reasons ofthe Republican Minister of Justice

MR. C.S. MDA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , in this matter I want to speak briefly in reply to the hon. the Minister of Justice. I want to point out that it was disappointing to us that an important man like. himself should speak as one who is irresponsible in what he says. When he spoke here he spoke delibe-

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rately wounding words to chiefs who are on this side of the House, saying that they have put themselves in danger of losing their status. The unfortunate part of this is that some of the chiefs who are not convinced of the wisdom of standing firm on their principles will therefore see that to be on the side which opposes the Government is dangerous to a person. That immediately raises the question in the minds of the Opposition : Is the intention of this Assembly to educate the African people on their elective responsibilities and the principles of elective government in the Transkei? We on this side of the House take this as an opportunity to educate our people on the principles of democracy and particularly were we gratified in the face of occurrences up north - gratified because we felt this experiment would afford us an opportunity to get our people well schooled. It is extremely unfortunate that the tendency with some of our honourable Ministers is not to take a serious view of the effect of their utterances in this Assembly. I also feel that the hon. the Minister of Justice was doing himself a great injustice when he did occasionally refer to matters affecting the case before the Supreme Court in Grahamstown. In these matters the ordinary man in the street is taught that there is what is commonly called a sub judice rule and no one is in a better position to observe that rule than the Minister of Justice. Hence we feel he does not do justice to his position as Minister of Justice in the Transkei. Now let us come to a matter which he raised in reply to the mover of this motion - his remarks on the question of this side of the House advocating a multi-racial form of state, as against their principle of separate development. He referred to the victory of Mr. T.G. Hughes in the Transkei constituency in the elections for the Republican Parliament as being significant only in so far as the whites in the Transkei refused separate development in favour of white supremacy with justice. He also referred to the remarks of the former Leader of the Opposition at a meeting in Flagstaff, where he alleged that the Leader made a statement to the effect that if the white man is qualified, then he should rule. The hon. the Minister did not seem to take cognizance of the full statement made by the Leader at that meeting. We submit that the Govemment of any country should be in the right hands, in capable hands, and in accordance with our principle for a multi-racial state, whereby we advocate equal opportunity on that basis. Therefore if the African happens to be more capable than the white then the African will rule , and vice versa. And what is wrong with that, Mr. Chairman? Do we want government merely for the sake of goverment, however incapable we may be at this stage, at any rate? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: So you admit you are incapable?

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MR. MDA: In so far as the Department of the Minister of Agriculture is concemed, while his own departmental secretary is a white man then we are incapable. The Minister is merely a political puppet, head of that Department and he does not even know the intricacies of his own Department. The hon. the Minister of Justice also touched on the flag question and he accused this side of the House of taking this matter on party political lines.

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THE CHIEF MINISTER: On dishonesty - use the correct word.

dishonesty. Now let us examine what is meant by dishonesty in this, Mr. Chairman. I was a member of the select committee on the flag bill, and when this question was under discussion by that committee I made an observation in that committee that the best method of taking this matter to the people distinctly on non-political lines would have been that regional authorities took it upon themselves to call meetings and at those meetings legislative members be invited to attend; that no other item should appear on the agenda except this flag question; and that whatever resulted from the deliberations at those regional meetings would then radiate through the country to tribal authority meetings , etc. I wish to refer to the fact that during the recess I wrote to my regional head on this question and I reminded him of the spirit of the select committee on this affair. I did that towards the end of last year. By that time I was convinced already that nothing was being undertaken on this so important matter. I never had a reply to my letter which was very reasonably put to my regional leader, Mr. Chairman. PARAMOUNT registered?

CHIEF

B.

SIGCAU:

Was it

MR. MDA: That was a single-handed attempt on my part to have the matter taken to the people on strictly non-political lines. P/CHIEF SIGCAU: I never got your letter.

MR. MDA: In my opinion anything short of that was not good enough, Mr. Chairman . If political party members of the governing party put this matter to the people in their political meetings, then it smells of party politics. THE

CHIEF MINISTER:

We never did that.

MR. MDA: The same result would have been effected ifwe had done that and the Government side must take full responsibility for this matter being a party political subject. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Prove your statement. We are going to produce documentary evidence to prove you have been dishonest. MR. MDA: All right, I am telling you. I have a copy of a letter I wrote to my regional head. P/CHIEF SIGCAU: I never received your letter. MR. MDA: Mr. Chairman , it is absolutely unsettling to some of us when the hon. the Minister of Justice replies to a question on what I personally. feel is the beginnings of subversive movements in the Transkei that he is not prepared to take any steps. I refer to the Sons of the Transkei, whatever society that is. If our Government were a responsible one they should have taken it upon themselves to investigate the sources of organisations like the Sons of the Transkei. We find them incapable of doing that and the only interpretation that we can attach to their inability is the fact that the Sons of the Transkei have leanings towards the T.N.I.P. If this Government is going to encourage subversive organisations at the very inception of self-government in these Territories , that does not augur well for the Transkei generally.

MR. MDA: The hon. the Chief Minister says on - 25 -

THE CHIEF MINISTER: We have our security

measures . MR. MDA : Now I must refer myself to the arguments against Proclamation 400. The hon . the Minister of Justice tried to justify the retention of this proclamation by saying it did not in any way worry the Opposition members in holding meetings and the trouble with us was that we first arranged meetings before we sought a permit. The fact of the matter is that regional heads or tribal authority are political figures and in politics we may be in disagreement with our respective heads of regions . The nett result of that is naturally their disinclination to allow us to meet the people for fear that we might explode their philosophies. I had to cancel a meeting which I had arranged because I failed to obtain a permit. I tried to contact the head of the regional authority office in my area but he was not available . I left a message and asked the receiver at the other end to put my application to the head on his arrival , and asked that the head should communicate with the magistrate for the permit to be issued. The next day I proceeded to the magistrate's office, only to find that no communication had been forthcoming from the head of the region. I called again by telephone with the same result, so that I was naturally obliged to cancel the meeting because the meeting was supposed to have been that same morning. (Interj ections) Some members across the floor are interjecting and asking whether this means that I do not want to go to the Great Place. The • Great Place in my case is no less that 50 miles

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: 64 miles. MR. MDA: The hon the Minister of Agriculture has come to my rescue with the information that the mileage from Bizana to Qaukeni is 64. It means I have to travel 64 miles merely to ask for a permit. (Interjections) P/CHIEF B. SIGCAU: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, the hon. member's father and grandfather used to travel this distance . As a matter of fact the members of the Opposition are lazy people. They want to be ringing up on telephones . Whether you ' phone or not it is of no avail . My authority must be first obtained in writing. Whether I reply to your telephonic message or not, it is necessary for me to write an authority eventually. He is misleading the House. MR. MDA: This is extremely unfortunate, Mr. Chairman .

THE CHAIRMAN: I will give you three minutes more because he has taken up some of your time. MR. MDA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The hon. Paramount Chief across the floor is my chief so you can see how much I owe respect to him, but the position has been allowed that we should be in this Parliament and in politics together with him , and whether we like it or not we are bound to cross ways some time. THE CHIEF MINISTER:

ntary history where this thing has ever taken place where administrative officers are the legislators at the same time ; where political opponents have the right to veto your desire to meet your electors . This has no parallel in parliamentary representation. THE CHIEF MINISTER: It has · we shall prove

it. MR. MDA: For that reason we shall never have confidence in a government which has no parallel in parliamentary history. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I liken the attacks made by the Opposition to a mosquito trying to bite an elephant. It reminds me of a person who is drowning who tries to save his life by holding on to any bush he comes across. As a result of their losing members they are trying to hold on to anything they can. The whole of yesterday we listened to members of the

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Opposition and there is nothing they can place before this House as a tangible matter. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition referred to zoning. You will remember that the zoning proclamation came out on the 3rd January , 1966. You will be aware therefore that it was not five months ago today. It is surprising that within such a short time they think they will see wonders in the Transkei. Yes, indeed, if we had witchdoctors it might be possible. I would like to tell the hon. member that within this five months a great deal has been done. There are many places that have been acquired by the Bantu people in the zoned areas of the Transkei. When I give my policy speech I will be able to tell you definitely how many places have been acquired. The hon. member also referred to financial assistance. May I inform him that the Bantu Investment Corporation is in a position to advance money to anybody who requires it. Furthermore, anybody can find money from the building societies with the permission of the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development. He can also find money from the commercial banks or from any other finance corporation . In this very House, members have stated that Bantu people are not in a position to compete in the same manner as European people, but the hon. member in his speech said the towns should be open to anybody · Chinese , Indians and anyone else. Ifthe Bantu people have not got the money, how then will they be able to stand the competition and make a success of their businesses? Why does he not realise that he is killing his own people? Let him understand that the policy of multi-racialism is killing the people. He further referred to a doctor who came from elsewhere to the Transkei . In politics you can always twist a statement to suit your Q own ends. Whether or not he played the piano with the doctor as he said, I will tell him the cause of why the doctor had to leave. Maybe he knows the tunes and the songs they learned together on the piano. As far as this matter is concerned, what finally made that particular doctor leave was the strong competition he found in Umtata. As there was E nothing to tie him down too much he chose to go to the Transvaal where he could get clients to come to his surgery.

We appreciate that.

MR. MDA: The hon. the Chief Minister says they appreciate that but I contend that if they appreciated it they would be following our contention that an upper house for chiefs should be established in these Territories. There is no parallel in parliame-

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MR. B.S. RAJUILI : But there is more competition there. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: There are many people there. Whether he knew that the money that he had ready to buy was finished, I do not know.

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As they were fellows at school, possibly even in financial matters they were also colleagues. You will understand that in the manner which we have followed in zoning these areas we are enabling the black man to buy wherever it is possible for him to buy, under title deed for the property . MR. L.A. LUWACA: Buy with what? 50 cents a day?

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: With money. To go further, the hon. member further said that this Government did nothing for the people. Evidently this is a common expression from that part of the House, as the hon. Mr. Nkosiyane also made that statement. In the issue of the Bantu World of the 12th October, 1965, this is what he said in Johannesburg where he referred to himself as Chief Nkosiyane, "Chief Kaiser Matanzima, the Transkei Chief Minister, has done little towards the welfare of the Transkei's starving masses except to claim the kingship of Emigrant Tembuland." This evidently , is the only thing that is worrying him wherever he is. It goes on: "Chief Nkosiyane, who arrived in Johannesburg for a three week visit of industrial factories , has got the blessing of the Tembuland ruler." You understand that this is a member of this Parliament who, when he is out of this country instead of speaking in support of this Parliament, only refers to his ruler. It is understood that he tried to find employment for the people there. Whatever his capacity was in trying to find employment for the people, I do not know. MR . MDA: What has this to do with the motion? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I am coming to that. I am trying to prove to you that this Government is doing something for the people of the Transkei. MR. MDA: So is the hon. Mr. Nkosiyane.

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: How? When he has gone to dance halls and entertainments of his own he says he is trying to find employment for the people. OPPOSITION MEMBER: How do you know that? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: In this department we have members of the labour bureau and he does not belong there. What is he then? He goes about negotiating with factories and industries and so on. MR. J.B. NKOSIY ANE : Mr. Chairman, I feel that the hon. member is out of order. He is not confining himself to the discussions which are concerned with the motion. THE

CHAIRMAN:

How is he

out of order?

MR. NKOSIY ANE: His remarks are to show that I am not supposed to do this and that. THE CHAIRMAN: Any member is entitled to quote from any paper. MR. NKOSIY ANE: But he goes further than what the paper said. The paper did not state that I attended dances and other entertainments . THE CHAIRMAN: That is enough. Please sit - 27

down, hon. member. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman, I do not know if he is grasping properly what I mean. said "if he had gone on his own" - I did not say he had gone to the dances. What I want to lay stress on is that no member in this Assembly should go out trying to seek employment for the people and go further and say that he is finding employment for the people. Further, he said that even the mealies imported into the Transkei were raised in price, implying that the European traders had deliberately raised the price. We are therefore surprised that they want the Europeans to stay in the Transkei when they complain about them. They should be happy because they are friends. I will go further. I would like to tell the hon. members that the Maize Board is the body that controls the price of mealies. It is not the Government of the Transkei which raises or lowers the price of maize. That has nothing to do with them. I come now to Proclamation 400. It is surprising that when you require certain advantages you want Proclamation 400 to be lifted. As far as you require to meet the people we have told you again and again : Go to the chiefs and the chiefs will call the people for you to meet them. This shows how little you respect your chiefs, that you do not even tell them you will be there on such-and-such a day. If you realise that the chiefs are your own chiefs you ought to go and request them to call these public meetings for you. I do not think any chief would refuse that. MR. S.M. SINABA: Mr. Chairman, hon. members of the House, I will try by every means to avoid any mud-slinging of this side of the House. I take it that this motion gives us the chance to air the views of the voters who brought us here because they are expecting a lot from us. I will try to dwell on the position as we see it today. We have this House which has been given us by the Republican Government and we have hope that we will do the best we can to improve our conditions, and we feel we may go to the Republican Government if necessary to assist us further. To our disappointment we find there is something wanting here. The Republican Government has been able to help us to a certain extent but we feel it is not enough. Under separate development we had the belief and the hope that we could develop in our own fields without interference , but to the ordinary man in the street to me and to some of the people in this House it does not seem to come to the point. Our Government has been able to do certain things but I feel that if we are given a promise it must be fulfilled at the time we expect it to be fulfilled. The reasons are quite clear. Our Government is not strong enough. They are not given the chance to move freely as they desire. If I am wrong I must be corrected. The reason I say so is that we have six departments in this House and in these departments we have been given the hope that sooner or later we will at last see changes which will replace the whites serving in these departments. But that has not happened, Mr. Chairman, nor do I hope it will ever happen because I feel if we are really given the power to govern ourselves we should be shown the correct way and told that on such-and-such a date we shall be allowed to stand on our own feet. In connection with our economy the hon. the Minister of Justice mentioned the growing of sugar, tea, etc. on our coast. An ordinary person would ask - so what? When that is grown we should feel that at least two or three of us should own that. We should be able to

THE CHIEF MINISTER: What is your policy? What about multi-racialism ? MR. SINABA: My policy is that we should fulfil our existence as a black man · the African first, then my brother. For instance, I was able to go around the country distributing castor seed to the people.... THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : How good are you in that skill? MR . SINABA: I want to prove to the people that if we go direct to the Government there will be different results. The people accepted it and they would have accepted it if the Government had done so as well. At this stage I will not be able to tell the House how far we would have gone but at least we have paved a new way . The hon. the Minister of the Interior has mentioned zoning in the towns . We have already heard complaints in our district. We were given to understand that in Mount Frere in the areas where Africans used to reside and which have been zoned white the people have been moved without notice, and then the white people who were in the areas zoned black are told to remain even for the next ten years . If I am wrong, that has been well announced by the Secretary for the Interior. At Mount Fletcher I understand that a man from the Reef who is well up was refused the opportunity to buy land .

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Who refused? MR. SINABA: The Village Management board told him to apply to this department and that one until in the end he got fed up. So at least I feel we would like to see some power in our departments so that they can act freely. To our dismay and shock we heard of the banning of Mr. Ndamse and the Department of Justice in our Govemment never said a word of protest. Not only are we disappointed to find that in the towns of the Republic when our people are ill-treated there is never a word of protest from the Transkei Govemment, but in the labour offices we are told to go to Matanzima and no one ever replies. In all the meetings we have held in the Matatiele regions the people have told us they are being driven from work. What are we going to do? We feel our Government may be all right but there is something lacking. They should be able to prove to us what they are worth. We have read recently in the newspapers of the transfer of land to our Govemment in the Transkei , but then we are told that we have no rights to the minerals that may be found in the Transkei.

for me to know. I feel, hon . members, as long as we have more whites in the departments and less Africans, the further away we are from independence. If there were more Africans in our departments I would be sure that on such-and-such a day these things would be put right. Previously the hon. the Minister of the Interior was able to give us a wonderful policy and in fact he passed a bill abolishing the two-mile radius , but if you go to the Maluti region you will find it has made no difference . I was once approached by the people of Ramohlokoana who said they had approached the Minister but were told there were enough shops at Ramohlokoana. Knowing so well that Matatiele is not zoned and will not be able to compete unless we are close to the people ...

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Do you know how many businesses there are at Ramohlokoana?

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MR. SINABA: Do you know how many licences there are there? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I do. MR. SINABA: I put it to you that you do not know because if you did know you should have called them into your office and told them that if they could not get this licence they could get the other one . There are many licences which are not operating at Ramohlokoana which can still be given to the residents there. Further, Mr. Chairman, if you allow me, we feel as well that the Government should have been able to organise our civil servants. We would be pleased to see at least one African sitting in that bay. We had hopes of Mr. Mbuli , who had done so well with the finances of the T.T.A. , being appointed as the first African secretary. But what has happened? He has been transferred right away from here.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Where did you get that? MR. SINABA: From the Press , and even in the proclamation itself we have no right. We have no transport and we feel that the Government should take up all these things. It is just like being given a loaf of bread which is just hollow, with nothing inside. That is why I prefer independence. THE CHIEF MINISTER: When? MR. SINABA: The time is for you to decide and - 28 --

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40 The debate was adjoumed. AFTERNOON SESSION . The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m.

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know that Mr. So-and-so is growing tea and is going to sell it; or is growing something of that nature on the coast. But I can assure you that whoever it is, there is a white man running that show.

The debate was resumed.

MR. J.M. SINEKE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support the amendment to the motion . First of all I will reply to a few questions referred to the Government party by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition . He alleged that the Government is taking credit for certain achievements. It is not only the person who started things to whom credit should be given. Whether these things were started by the Republican Government or not, credit should go to the Transkei Goverment. I will pass on now to certain faults which were pointed out in connection with the zoning of villages. He has asked why the Transkei Government should zone for people who are due to leave the Transkei. I want to remind them that there is no enmity between the Transkei Govemment and the Republican Government. Whatever they undertake to do they do mutually. That is to say, those people of the Republican Goverment who are in our midst cannot be thrown out merely because we want the country for ourselves. We are not at war but we are studying the question of land. I will pass onto the remark that the Opposition members are not allowed to hold meetings. I have evidence, and it will come forth, that such is not the case because the hon. member, Mr. Jafta, and the hon . Miss Twetwa

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often accompany us to our meetings. As it is, the week before last we were all together at a meeting. There was mutual agreement at this meeting where we discussed several matters. I will concede that there is sometimes a bar placed in the way of certain black sheep in that party. I sympathize with my friend, the Leader of the Opposition, because his party is made up of white sheep and black sheep and that is why there is this complaint. Again, there has been a general complaint that this Government has placed obstacles in the way of people wanting to proceed to labour centres. If we look back and examine the position we will see that the number of people

} proceeding to labour centres is steadily increasing. From the beginning of 1964, 16,000 people went to work; in 1965 this number rose to 20,000. (Inter-

I

jections) It should be obvious therefore that people are not being restricted from going to labour centres . People who are complaining about these restrictions are those who go to the big towns , leaving their families behind and wanting to rent accommodation . The member across the floor who has just returned from gaol, where he was locked in, is a black sheep . He has come first to the Assembly here from gaol instead of going home. There are constant complaints from the members across the floor as to when these posts will be relinquished by the whites so that the black people will be employed, but this Government does notdecided want people put When themthis into Government difficulties and has to go who slowly.

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came into power there were 2,800 whites in the

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service and through a process of sorting in favour of the Africans, only 382 whites are in the Government service now. I say we have confidence in this Government. Other achievements of this Government are well known to the people because they have been done in their presence. I say that the Government is determined to go forward because last week there was a police medal parade and the recipients were members of the Transkei police force. The Government has the interests of the people at heart because a Government that does not have the interests of the people at heart will also have people like Mr. Doubt. (Laughter) We are also proud of the announcement that the force now has two police dogs of its own. That shows that the Government is busy working. We have six public prosecutors. All along our friends across the floor have been saying that these were impossible things. The hon . the Leader of the Opposition also touched on the wages , alleging that the amount of 50 cents a day, rising to 85 cents a day, is inadequate. I do not know whether or not he has forgotten that the previous Government gave its workers 25 cents or 30 cents a day. 50 or 85 cents a day is not a very small wage today. The Government is doing something because the boys who are in the public service today were brought from the mines. Some of them were domestic servants and I actually heard a remark from a white woman that she had a matriculated boy as a domestic servant. (Interjections) You must be quiet because all these things which you said were impossible have been accomplished. To pass on to my friend, Mr. Sinaba. I am sorry because there is no provision for the arrest of people in this Assembly because if that were so, he would have had a summons served on him before sundown for perjury. He cannot leave people in the lurch but I say all the same that politics is a subject that kills people. Perhaps some other time he will come to his senses. I want to say that the country has confidence in the Government. The schools have been improved. No one has ever had his praises sung if he has not done anything. There are songs that the people sing

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in praise of Matanzima. Even children gather at the wells and you often hear them giving the salute: Ah, Daliwonga: Even people in the streets say: Ah, Daliwonga! CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in my speech I would like to refer to the position of chiefs in the last 16 years. The chiefs are today able to express their opinion. In the last 16 years they were not recognized in the Transkei. My hon. friend, the Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland , the late Saul Mabude , the late C.K. Sakwe and myself went to Cape Town to see the Minister of Native Affairs, the present Prime Minister of the Republic. Among the chiefs who supported us was Paramount Chief Botha Sigcau. We placed the position to the then Minister of Native Affairs and he accepted the report that we placed before him. My hon. Chief, the Leader of the Government party, was then behind the scenes but he is a man who likes to come forward and accept credit for what others have done. The Leader of the Government party sent me a congratulatory letter on our return , saying: Well done , thou good and faithful servant. I was then secretary to the association of chiefs in the Transkei . THE CHIEF MINISTER: What happened to the money? CHIEF MAJEKE : That money was contributed to the fund which has helped to make the chiefs what they are today . I would like the Government party to be very well aware that ever since we have always advocated that our chiefs be placed on a higher level where they would receive the honour and respect due to them. To be brief, it is our policy that our chiefs should be placed in an upper house where they would be respected by everyone , including the lower house. You are aware of the difficulty experienced this very day when the hon. member, the Paramount Chief across the floor, crossed swords with an ordinary member of Parliament in this House. Whilst we are aware that we want our chiefs to be given respect, if we proceed in the manner in which we are now proceeding the time will come when the chiefs will quarrel among themselves. Not only that, but there will be a feud between the chiefs and their subjects . However long you may think , I would like to ask how long it will be that the chiefs will be the law-givers of their people, and how many of those laws will be accepted with a quite mind by the people for whom they are made. You will be aware of this because I think your greed for honourable places will lead you to fall. Even if you are very greedy, do not hold all things to yourself and want them to be yours alone. If the chiefs were aware how much they are regarded by their own people they would take it to heart that the people would show them respect if they respect themselves. If the chiefs were in another house in this Parliament, the seats which they are now occupying would be occupied by their " indunas " . I want to make you aware of this and I would like you to think of this even in your deepest sleep: If you want to hold the people take care, because the Leader of the Government party likes honourable places - and indeed he has already held them. I hope that in the near future, as he has now been appointed to an important position , he will retire to a back seat and let his "induna" take the position he now holds. (Laughter) I would like to pass on to some other important things relating to the Transkei. When we state that we have no confidence in the Government we would like the Government to take serious consi-

deration of the things we are placing before them. We want the Government to be aware that they are our Government and we do not like them to regard themselves as people who have no definite place of abode. We have no particular hatred for the Government party. All we want is to place before them the situation as it is so that you may take it to heart. The people of the Transkei are suffering from famine. You are aware that mealies is their staple food. From year to year they have sown and managed to get what they could from the earth. What you as the Government should do as your first concem is to see that the people are well supplied with the necessities of life. What I think your Government is bent on doing is to start new undertakings and leave the very essentials that are important to the people - mealies , kaffircorn and beans. These are the mainstays in the life ofthe people and the Government should take serious consideration of the situation. (Interjections) Last year you merely caused amusement by moving a lotof amendments. We would like you to be aware that in the Transkei there is a plentiful supply of manure and I would suggest that the XG cars that are running round the country doing nothing should be used to cart manure to the lands. (Interjections)

THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Give the interpreter a chance. CHIEF MAJEKE: It is the Govemment party which said that this idea of taking manure to the lands was not acceptable. It is possible that you may not know what we mean by manure because you come from a different area and you say the Govemment cannot undertake the fertilizing of the land by the use of manure. Further, we advanced the idea that the Government should pay a subsidy on this fertilizer so that the land should be improved. You would not even consider that, but you moved amendments. Of a truth I would like to tell the Govemment party that they do not consider the needs of the people but only of themselves in so far as they are here. To come to the third point: You want to give away our land. You pretend you have a particular hatred even of the Europeans. You go as far as to think that the people who have been brought up in European homes are people who cannot do any good for the country. By that you show your hatred for the white people, whereas the white people have helped you and you are merely pretending. This is our point · we are not going to hand over our land or give it to others so that we may be given a land which is already overused. The Republic is our land · black and white (Interjections) but you may be afraid to say so. You cowards gave away the land. The Republican Govemment did not force anything down your throats. They merely hung up a flycatcher and all the flies and the greedy insects were caught. How many black people are there in this land, and how many in the Republic? Let us say the number is 13,000,000 and the white people to whom you hand over all this land is only 3,000,000 . Two-fifths of the whole land is being given to only 3,000,000 people and the rest of the 13,000,000 are to be placed in this dry and barren land. That is just how the Griquas lost their land, by handing it over in return for brandy. THE CHIEF MINISTER: having these ideas?

When did you start

CHIEF MAJEKE: You are cowardly, and if you are cowardly it is better that you should do nothing

However, it is a well known fact that the cowards stay behind. They tremble when they reach the battlefield. We have no hatred for the white people or for anyone else but the tendency of your policy is to breed hatred between the peoples of this land. After you have fully populated the Transkei you will not get a further square inch of land outside the Transkei. This is the time to speak. It is this E that we are trying to rectify now. This is what should be done for you on the Govemment side. I think the hon. the Chief Minister and the Minister of Justice should be granted leave to travel so that they should go to Bechuanaland and on up through Africa to see Mr. Wilson in England and then to Mr. Johnson in America and see what they will tell him. We would rather you go out of the Transkei through this channel which I have mentioned and we would support such a measure rather than that you should be locked up in the Transkei. Take note of this . that our respectable teachers and the ladies who are conducting the education of the

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children should be told in public that they are drunkards, dis gracing the children. That is what the Government has done. The teachers are being disgraced by the Govemment. You should travel round the world and learn. Have these teachers just become drunkards now? Why don't you study the methods of the previous Govemment? Further, you say you have now stopped concerts at night. I do not know what I would liken the Government to. Why don't they hold meetings and talk quietly to the teachers, instead of making it public?

MR. Z. CHEMANE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, this motion is a perennial. When I look ! at the members across the floor I get the impression that they are all sensible people but as we go on I find that they are senseless. They suggest now that the land we have should be given over to other E people. (Interjections) The only policy we can

have today is the policy of the Govemment. The people of the Transkei themselves see what has been done for them. TheOpposition members just e criticize the Govemment because they failed to get into power and now they are finding fault with the mentality of the Govemment because they hope they will be following their example. There is very little that can be complained about in the government of the Transkei but that is outweighed because we are not prepared to steam roller things. It is difficult to understand the mentality of the Opposition because it is obvious that there are these two colours because God Himself wanted us to live separately but at the same time to have our own opportunities. We are glad that our Govemment is not a steamroller but gives us our bread and butter so that we can enjoy our own prosperity in our own places, without having to give credit for that to the whites. As long as the whites are amongst us they will demand the respect they demanded 300 years ago, and we will never cease to feel inferior. Today we have this Assembly and can even make laws and claim our rights and live in our country without any interference. The Govemment is aware of all the difficulties in the Transkei. There are some who com plained about the labourers. All this is receiving the consideration of the Govemment at the present time. Much has been said in this Assembly about the hon. the Chief Minister receiving a position he does not deserve. The Transkei is looking forward to seeing this country being placed where it should be.

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The hon. member who has just sat down was also in Pondol and canvassing and there he spoilt everything. He sees that the Govemment is granting opportunities, whilst yesterday the Leader of the Opposition remarked that the Govemment is slow in its achievements. He is just out to criticize the Goverment without any tangible complaints.

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leader ably pointed out that after a unanimous decision in this House on a very important matter • the education of our children this Govemment went round the corner and gave birth to some other system of education by bringing back the same syllabus . I remember the hon. the Chief Minister here holding a syllabus and saying: Do you see this? It was the Bantu Education syllabus roneoed by your department. He had to do that because he knew the members on that side do not know what he is saying A Goverment that will injure the thinking capacity of an innocent child reminds me of something in the Great Book, and if you studied that book you would be a better Minister. In the first or second chapter of Exodus you will find this story. When the oppressors of the children of Israel were fomulating a system of education or a method of control that would keep the people down all the time, they said these nations were powerful and had numerical

MR. B.S. RAJ UILI: Mr. Chaiman and hon. members , when we say we have no confidence in the Government, these are some of the reasons why we say that: You have here these honourable gentlemen forming the Govemment of the Transkei who are guilty of unfulfilled promises for the noise they make in the nice time they have going up and down the country . Their song was an industry of repatriating the whites out of the Transkei and up to this moment they have not moved one single white · not even a poor white, out of the Transkei . They had to stop singing that song because from the same department headed by the hon. the Chief Minister, the Secretary said the white man has a big undertaking in the Transkei and they cannot be expected to leave . The hon. the Chief Minister once stood in front of us telling us he was a young small boy just starting life, and then the following year he said he likened himself to a young man who is about to take over an inheritance from his father. We were expect ing that he was getting to manhood and showing us what he could do, and yet when he came to Parlia ment here he was like a small boy running in front of his mother. The excuse of the Govemment and

strength. We must devise a clever way of keeping them in slavery. That is what I see in the Education Department of the Transkei . (Interjections) I am giving you homework to finish. The hon. the Minister of Education understands me perfectly well but the hon. the Minister of Agriculture cannot under stand. The parents of the children in the Transkei have completely lost confidence in this Govemment, and particularly in the Department of Education. We expected the Govemment to substantiate the reasons why the people should have con fidence in them and the hon. the Minister of Justice said yesterday, in his attempts when he failed to put up a case, that it was all Native Trust land. What has happened to day is just a change of name. That land today is still what it was in as much as the Education Department of the Transkei has just changed names. The education system is the same as was rejected by a unanimous decision of this

its supporters is that we should not expect much within a short time. We do not expect miracles to happen ovemight. Then when they failed to do anything they come forward to say they are still planning. One would not expect anything else than that from a sham govemment, or a psuedo government if you like to call it that. The test is: What are you doing for the people other than the high academic singing noise you make throughout the country? This Govemment made the people understand that independence was just next door, but today they are dragging their feet. They have told us we must not be in too much of a hurry. So long as you are a Govemment without a policy , or with a policy borowed from some other country, so long will you be dragging your feet. Sometimes I pity the loaned secretaries who are supposed to help this irresponsible Government. Sometimes when they let

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themselves loose and get outside the Transkei , they give the Prime Minister of the Republic an unpleasant time having to explain the statements they make. Sometimes he does not hesitate even to sacrifice our Chief Minister on the cheapest of the political altars in Pretoria because of the irresponsible statements he makes when he is in the Republic of South Africa. Sometimes he does not know what his policy is. We are supposed to be a legislative and executive body under this govem ment. We legislate here and when we leave this Assembly and go into recess you will find that the administrative machinery that is composed of the loaned secretaries has perhaps warped out legis lation so that it does not come out as it does here. How can anybody have confidence in a Government that suffers from breach of promises and breach of legislation ? The worst criminal in this is the Depart ment of Education . The aspirations and wishes and hopes of the people have been damped down by the Minister. As it is we do not know where we are with the Education Department of our country . Our

House. In fact, they have become more criminal in that at least the Republican Govemment is sincere in their policy, but the Govemment of the Transkei is deceiving the people by talking of mother tongue instruction through the medium of English to bluff the people. Now I want to come to separate development. The Transkei Govemment has put up these planks that we see here to treat us as pigs. All the members on that side of the House are offended when they get to a post office which discriminates against their colour, but they bring these planks right into the House. When will they stop being hypocrites and refuse to accept that sort of treatment? They are treating us like pigs here. The policy of separate development is not there. They are trying to inherit something that never belonged to them. Under it the Republican Government has been very clever in making some little concessions but, in fact, in the Transkei the only thing this Govemment can ably speak about is that they are enjoying the luxury of the black cars with which they enjoy the crushed lumps of stone on the roads. For everything else that happens in the Transkei we are very thankful to the Republican Govemment with perhaps some of the loaned secretaries who are doing the work, but we were expecting that those secretaries would have been eliminated sooner because the Transkei has able people who would have been able to work even in the Republic. I am very thankful that they are So attentive on the Govemment side that they have forgotten to heckle, because if you put truth in front of a man he cannot pretend not to see the truth. A policy of separate

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1 development which is foreign to the African brings three things: You rob yourselves of the land of your birth; you become insincere in talking to people without any purpose; you come in front of your own people to bluff them. That is what you get in the policy of separate development. That is what our Government in the Transkei is guilty of a breach

but today their lowest salary is R534. I wonder if those two scales are equal ? I regret very much that the hon. Mr. Rajuili is not now present. In his congregation he preaches separate development. I do not know whether it is just because he is a Minister of religion and he wants his stipend raised, but now he says we must have multi-racialism .

of several promises to the people. Citation was made of the appointment of Mr. Ndamse. (I can see them now becoming more guilty. ) They were sincere in making that appointment and we were all happy. He is a professional man who really should head the Department of Education, let alone any junior offices there. As I say, they were very sincere in making that appointment and they still say he should be appointed. Their difficulty is that they are clothed in a policy which is not theirs. Now the practicability or otherwise of their loaned policy A can this Goverment tell me of any country anywhere where, when people take power, they say we are going to get rid of the civilized element in humanity and then we can make progress? Now in Basutoland wise people there are not saying that whites should go away because they are getting into power. That is wisdom. Over in the west Bechuanaland has not said that irresponsible thing which makes the world wonder if there is any sanity in the minds of people who talk like that. The father of the policy of separate development in dealing with the African had this in mind. During the time of Dr. Malan they were after "baasskapism". In the time of Mr. Strydom they were for domination of the black man all the time. Then came a clever man in the present Prime Minister. He said: We are not going to make "baasskap" appear so broad and so dangerous. We are going to make the kaffir perhaps feel he is a somebody. (Laughter) Then he talked about separate development but not parallel development. Even if they feel there is some parallelism in it, it can only exist in so far as the kaffir is in Kaffirland. Outside that little area there can be no equality and respect

One other outstanding matter is that relating to the Transkei flag. It was taken from this Parliament to the regional authorities. The tribal authorities sent their recommendations to the regional authorities. You will now hear the report of those particular bodies . I speak here as a chief, not just as an ordinary citizen. (Interjections ) We make every effort to make a success of this Parliament. You do not require an upper house. I do not know what this upper house will do. I would like you to look back and see how much the old pension fund was. This has now been raised. It is this Govemment which has done so. There are many things achieved by this Govemment. Let me give you an example. Our father here, the hon. Paramount Chief Poto, has been on the Opposition side and he was the Leader of the Opposition. The reason why he went on the Opposition side was to try and lead us chiefs on account of his honourable status as a chief, so that we also might follow and be on the Opposition side and bring an end to chieftainship. I wonder what the people in the other territories know about this land, such as the Tswanas and Basutos. These territories were under the British Govemment and it was on account of their respect for that Govemment that they have achieved what they are now getting. On the other hand, you desire to have everything to yourselves instead of gradually taking on things one by one. On that account I would like to stress that I have every confidence in the Government of the Transkei.

of human beings, one to the other. That is the policy of separate development. They do not own it. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: What is your attitude to independence?

MR. RAJUILI: The moment you leave the Transkei you are treated the same as anybody else whether you are the Chief Minister, the Minister of Education or anyone else. You have to have a pass, hence we have no confidence in a Government that will continue to bluff the people. CHIEF

S.M.

LEBENYA:

Mr.

Chairman

and

hon. members, it is fitting that after an ordinary citizen has spoken his chief should say something. I have every confidence in the Govemment of the Transkei, especially in view of the many achieve ments which you are evidently questioning. It is the right procedure that if you do not understand anything you should ask those who do know. There are many achievements which have been brought about by the Transkei Govemment. In the office of this establishment we have principal clerks who are Bantu a thing that was not known in the time of the Republican Government. In these same offices we have 2,000 employees, Bantu not European, and their remuneration is very satisfactory from the first notch to the top. Before the advent of the Transkei Govemment, clerks received R480 a year,

MR. H.H. ZIBI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, my fair contribution to the motion before the House is this: First of all , I have to comment on the conduct of some of the hon. Ministers of this Government, plus a few of their henchmen. Whenever there are issues of national importance, in discussing them they will always get down to personalities. It was disappointing to hear the hon. the Minister of Justice yesterday taking that road, when we had regarded him as one of the most enlightened gentlemen on the other side. A Minister of the said Government among other things when he addressed a meeting at the Rotary Stadium here that the policy of separate development is acceptable, feasible and practicable and was wanted by the people of the Transkei. He omitted to say it is only acceptable in so far as the Government now ruling is concerned, and not for the people of the Transkei. There are many cases that can be quoted to prove the impracticability of that policy. One example is in front of us. There are the European secretaries behind the Ministers. You go to the offices of the Government service and you find the same state of affairs , so that, Mr. Chairman, a lot can be said against what the Government wishes to tell the people about the policy of separate development. Before I go further on the question of policy, may I comment on the irresponsible utterance that have been delivered by the Ministers of our Government as they go round the Republic. Once the hon. the Chief Minister told a meeting in Gcalekaland that if the communists came to the Transkei he and his Government would meet

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them at the borders of the Transkei and chase them away. One would wish to know whether they would use sticks, because to own an assegai in his own country is an offence . At one time he was at Rhodes University in Grahamstown and he stated among other things that he believed in Xhosa nationalism . Mark you, he does not say "African" nationalism. He is at present leading a Govemment not composed only of Xhosas, but of other tribes which comprise the Transkei. It is not every one of us who wishes to be Xhosa, and one is not surprised that the vehicles of the Transkei are marked XG with perhaps the letter T should have been used. Last year we agreed that the question of the flag be referred back to the people because we felt that there is a question of principle involved in the matter. The country has to have independence, after which it then has to have a flag. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Where do you get that? MR. ZIBI: He is directly under the Republican Government as he always wants to tell us , and he wants to have a Transkei flag whereas the Republican Goverment has its own flag. As a matter of fact they decide all the questions as far as the flag is concerned and he is bringing a bill on the same flag. Speakers on this side have commented on the question of education . I remember very well last year when I spoke on it and one of the Ministers concerned told me I was not competent to discuss the question. In any event I shall reply to that when we get to his policy statement. One wonders if our Goverment is ever consulted by the Republican Government when the matter of loaning secretaries takes place. I say that because a deci sion of this House was to do away with Bantu education and when the Department of Education was taken away by the Republican Government, they bring in a Secretary who was a member of the notorious Cingo Commission.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Since when is it notorious? MR. ZIBI: Notorious it is in the civilized world. That Commission sought to convince us that all was well in education. Unfortunately the hon. the Minister of Education in the Transkei and his Secretary were both members of that Commission. Can we now ever have a hope of any change? Can any member, if he is really honest, change his own convictions? The Leader of the Opposition mentioned, among other things, . that the hon. the Chief Minister spoke of Xhosa being used as a medium of instruction in our schools. I do not know whether he has unfortunately been influenced by the presence of the new secretary for Education. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: He is an educationist. MR. ZIBI : One would really be happy to see mathematics taught in Xhosa and all the science

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to them that it was the only weapon at our disposal to make ourselves felt by the Republican Govemment, This Goverment will go down in history for having destroyed a nation when it really wanted one thing to live on and that was education proper. One is sad when one thinks of the Chief Minister and the Minister of Justice with their academic attainments allowing this state of affairs to take place. The hon. Mr. Sineke tried to tell us what good had been done by the Govemment in trying to get our sons and daughters good jobs in the Govemment, but he omitted to tell us what the scales of pay are. If you go into the inner workings of those departments you feel ashamed of the method used in grading the clerks. You find in certain instances that there are old European ladies in those departments whom they say they do not want. You can go round all the six departments, starting with the Secretary and going down to the first assistant, second assistant and so on, and you will find that a Native (as you call them - we call them "Africans" ) is right below there and you wish to know when they will get to the top So that their ambition of becoming Secretary is accomplished. We have been told about the intention of opening up factories, mines, etc. , and in such undertakings you want people who know about these things · people who will plan ; and so far it is just the Europeans who can tell the people about these things. In you people we see a lot of self-conscious. ness. You go round the country in your beautiful XG cars telling the people a lot of untruths, making people live on nothing. The people are tired of having nothing. As we go round, the people want to know what has happened to the education that the Transkei Government promised to give. One is surprised that you have this policy of separate development because with separate development Bantu education is the correct thing. It is, in fact, a comerstone of " apartheid". In separate development they have been lowering the standard of educa tion because with separate development the coolies must have their own education, the Bushmen their own, and so on. With that set up how can we have a hope of changing the system? Gentlemen, you have omitted the tides and the tides are the feelings, the wishes and the aspirations of the Transkei people, and therefore your voyage is bound to come to grief. You tell people in the rural areas here when you address them and you bluff them that they will get windmills, schools and clinics ; that all our wives will put on wieght because all the water will be drawn into their wells. What has happened today? There are not enough windmills to provide water; there are not enough clinics. But when the officials go round they say these things are on the doorstep. One thing is certain, that truth will triumph in the end. There is also that atmosphere of insecurity as far as the teachers are concerned. Consider when a circular from a responsible department can go so low as to dictate to teachers about concerts, when they know there is no money and the teach ers must do that in order to get assistance to raise money. Yet the hon. the Minister of Education has the

subjects. (Laughter)

THE CHIEF MINISTER: But they are taught in German and Afrikaans. MR . ZIBI : One can see that the feelings of the people of the Transkei are nothing as far as the Transkei Government is concerned. We pointed out

temerity and audacity to try to run the schools. Anyone knows that is not his function . When there was this change, the teachers thought that the insecurity they were suffering from whilst the de partment was under the Bantu Education Department would now be removed, but, alas, what has happened? It has been a question of out of the frying pan into the fire. I sometimes do not blame them. They

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sometimes have to oblige the boss from whom they borrowed the policy. We are grateful for this department, but please let us run it on our own lines to suit the Transkei people.

The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjoumed until 11 am . on Wednesday, 27th April, 1966. WEDNESDAY, 27th APRIL, 1966. The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.

The hon. member says he wants meetings to be organised by the magistrate. I do not know if he thinks the meeting must be allowed by me. Further more, it is not for the headman to arrange meetings for you. You must arrange your own meetings. You must plan them and make a choice of a place for your meetings. (Interjections) It was remarked here that the hon. Mr. Mdledle is advanced in age and it was also said that even mentally he is advanced in age. I did not like that remark because even the Democratic Party has members who are advanced in age and it was a reflection on them as well. You must think before you speak. The hon. Mr. Dana would not like that to reflect on him and on other

Prayers were read. elderly members. To pass on, Mr. Chairman, I understand that the hon. Mr. Bubu has been to Lambasi

The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed . ANNOUNCEMENT. THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members, I notice that hon. members are not coming into the Assembly on time. I will ask them to take note of that because it is still early in the

to ascertain the complaints of the people. I do not know from whom he asked permission to hold that meeting. In doing this he stopped people from doing their work because he wanted to get their complaints when they should have been working. I hope the hon. the Minister of Agriculture will go into this matter. There has been a remark from the Democratic Party members that this side of the House is composed

session for such a thing to happen. Members should realise they are here on behalf of the people and not on business of their own.

of illiterate people. That is a bad remark to make about chiefs and I hope the chiefs will bear this in mind and tell their followers at home that the Democratic Party members across the floor say

I also wish to announce that the hon. Chief H. Magadla is not well. He has heart trouble and his doctor has advised him to remain in hospital for a month.

they are illiterate. They say they themselves are educated but they do very bad deeds and how can we follow them if they carry on these activities? This is a disgrace. We will never follow people 2 who carry on in this way: You spoke at great length yesterday but I have this question: What white man t is speaking in the language we are using when we are saying what we are saying?

TABLING OF REPORTS OR DOCUMENTS. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in accordance with the provisions of the proviso to sub-section (4), section 12, of Proclamation R.334 of 1963, I lay upon the table a retum reflecting the particulars of all persons appointed to higher posts than the entry grades of the Govemment Service. NO-CONFIDENCE.

PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I want to speak on this motion and I say the country has confidence in the Govem ment. Yesterday the hon. Chief Majeke was shocked at what the hon. Mr. Mda said. Personally I did not take any notice of that. All I can say is that the hon. Mr. Mda is not working for his party for this reason · in the three years' life of this Parliament this was the first occasion I received a letter from him asking for pemission to hold a meeting. If he did hold meetings then he held them illegally. I usually give permission freely and with good will for the members of the Democratic Party to hold meetings. He expects matters to be speeded up in two days. I have already planned for meetings to take place in August. You seem to think meetings should be arranged in only two or three weeks, then you go along and find the meetings are attended by only five or six people if you are lucky. The hon. member must not lay the blame at my door. You will still experience difficulties if you do not follow procedure. I am not surprised at this because it will be very difficult for you if you do not follow procedure. I hope next time you will do things in the proper way. The hon. Mr. Bubu is the only man who sticks to procedure. The rest are all loafers.

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear, hear. P/CHIEF SIGCAU : Why do you want to mix with the white people? Are you trying to curry favour? What for? (Laughter) If what you say is true, why should the Mayor of Umtata not invite you to a dinner so that you can mix up white and black? You assure us that this policy is acceptable. (Inter jections) We are not prepared to follow your policy. Do not try and get high positions. That is apparently all you want. Your party will soon fall to pieces because you all aspire to high positions. There are only 64 seats in the Transkei and you all want those seats. (Interjections) I want to say we have confidence in this Govemment. I am not interested in any spoils. I am satisfied with the position in which I am. I do not want to be a president. You cannot aspire to high positions if you are not educated, The president must be an educated man. That is traditional. It is the custom in politics. I am following what we agreed to in Pretoria. Do not set us at loggerheads. All of us and certain members of the Democratic Party agreed to this. In regard to Procla mation 400 , agitation is going on in Qaukeni. The hon. member asked me what is going on in Qaukeni. We have agitators going round in Mount Ayliff, Tabankulu and Lusikisiki. Only Flagstaff is lagging behind. You know why Proclamation 400 is being retained. It is because of the actions of members across the floor. I do not know what is wrong with the mentality of the members over there. (Interjec tions)

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THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please.

1 P/CHIEF SIGCAU : Some of them are asking for the proclamation to be lifted. You are the ones who are responsible for the retention of this proclamation. Do not blame us. We have long been saying that the proclamation only worries those who worry it, as is the case with all the laws. Some people are complaining about the home guards. (Interjections) There was one member who was very anxious that the proclamation should be withdrawn and I believe he is going to speak on it in this session. I will not say anything before the motion is brought up. I know what his intention is. (Interjections ) I want him to come to me personally, then he will see what sort of man I am. He wants innocent people to suffer. I want to say we have no confidence in the members

t

on that side. You are doing nothing even for your own children. I do not know why this motion is taking so much time. It should have been given only two days so that we could get on to other business. You have shown us bad habits. On this side we belong to the Kingdom of God. (Laughter) They have no interest but to talk politics. I say: Woe betide you on that side. (Laughter) MR. T.H. BUBU: Mr. Chaiman, I want to refer

K

first of all to the words said by my hon. Paramount Chief of Eastem Pondoland. I want to say straight away that I am very appreciative of the remarks that he has made in connection with meetings. I know that the general message conveyed by what he said is that he is quite willing to grant permits and to see us hold meetings among his people. By making that concession he shows that he is really becoming the great man he should be. In accordance with greatness, I also wish to appeal to him through you, Mr. Chairman, that he should see to it that when he gets our letters applying for permission he should not send his political agents to the places where we want to hold meetings to wam the headmen and chiefs in those areas to discourage people from attending those meetings. P/CHIEF

SIGCAU: I have never done that.

2 MR. BUBU: Then when the attendances are low he comes here to stigmatize the meetings as not representative. THE CHIEF MINISTER: So you admit he has the following of the people? MR. BUBU: I think you have understood what I have said in connection with this appeal. Further, Mr. Chairman, I want to make my contribution towards the debate. In this connection I have also to say, as has been said in the last two days, that we have no confidence in the Goverment for a wide variety of reasons. First and foremost is the fundamental fact that this Govemment has accepted and is vigorously advocating a policy that is basically discriminating. It is well known to us all that all foms of discrimination are dictated by the motives of suspicion, self-centredness and hatred. I think we must all concede that the fountains of separate development • a policy which has been accepted by the Government · originated in the desire to put the Native in his place. His place was that of permanent inferiority, socially, intellectually, poli. tically and otherwise. Now I submit that by accept ing that philosophy of government the Government of the Transkei sacrificed our birthright to all forms

of freedom on the altar of political expediency. If so then, Mr. Chairman, and I honestly feel it is so, how can we have confidence in the Government - a Govemment that has accepted the inferiority that is imposed on us? Consequently we have no confidence in that Government. Further, it has been widely canvassed both in the Transkei and within the Republic of South Africa that the limit of develop ment within a Bantustan would be the sky. In other words, it has been argued that once a Bantustan has been established it would be guaranteed the benefit of unimpended growth. Have these attractive assurances been honoured? I want to say: Emphatically no! Last year we were shocked to hear the news that the architects of separate development had placed an insumountable obstacle in one of the paths towards social, intellectual and political development in respect of this Bantustan, when the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was refused a passport to proceed to America. The purpose of that trip, Mr. Chairman, was to the end that his political and intellectual horizons might be broadened for the ultimate benefit of the Transkeian communi. ties . The Americans were evidently helping the Transkei on its road towards self-realisation. Unfortunately the sky, as the reputed limit, was lowered. Remember that I said this was an assurance that the sky was the limit. Here is a man in the Bantustan who is being given an opportunity to go abroad to collect information and knowledge for the purpose of bringing about the redemption of his people politically, intellectually and socially, and the application of this system prevented him from doing so. What inconsistency , Mr. Chairman! Indeed, what breach of faith with the Transkei. I shall therefore be very grateful if the hon. the Chief Minister in his reply will kindly reconcile this modus operandi with the widely publicized claim of the hon. Minister and his fellow-travellers in the Republic that the sky is the limit. Meanwhile, I want to remind him that as he connived in this unhappy occurrence at the time, I feel that it is logical for us to assert that his Government is unworthy of our confidence, and so we have no confidence in it. It is axiomatic that a satisfied and contented civil service is a prerequisite for good and efficient govemment. As we want to ensure that satisfaction among our civil servants, allow me to comment on the unsatisfactory position that obtains in respect of them - a position that has been neglected by the Government in spite of the fact that we drew their attention to it last year. At the inception of self-govemment here, African civil servants who had posts in the Republic were encouraged to retum to the Transkei , their home. They were assured that they had nothing to lose, that all the benefits that had accrued to them as a result of their service in the Republic would remain. What happened when they came home? They lost their annual bonus, a bonus that was really regarded as a holiday bonus. Their non-pensionable allowance is being reduced by one-third of an increment if the increment is R60, and by a half in case the increment is over R60. On what grounds can this be justified, Mr. Chaiman? Is it not a betrayal of the assurance given to them when their services were invited into the Transkei? What would be wrong, for instance, if the non-pensionable allowance were to be consolidated into the basic salary and a corresponding adjustment were brought about in respect of the other civil servants who were serving in the Transkei for all time? The position

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would then become immediately no longer anomalous and no civil servant, whether working in the Transkei at the time or in the Republic in the past, would feel disgruntled for any reason. Everybody would be satisfied and the position would redound to the credit of the Govemment. As I say, what is the difficulty in doing that, because it has been asserted again and again that the Transkei is capable of supporting all its citizens, either from its own natural resources or on the basis of what financial assistance may be obtained from the Republican Government. What is the difficulty then in getting over this financial hurdle? Should we not, on the Opposition benches, regard it as indifference on the part ofthe Government? It is a position which immediately undemines our confidence in the Government. This position is further aggravated by the fact that some of the civil servants have from the nature of their positions to occupy what are called official quarters , and they are compelled as such to pay rents. In this regard I understand that they have to pay rents in this way: They pay 122 per cent of the gross salary, or 72 per cent of the value of the house, whichever may be lower. As if this type of expense is not enough, the Govemment has withdrawn a rebate that was payable to them · a rebate that belonged to them and which helped to reduce the expense in connection with rentals. THE MINISTER tains everywhere.

OF

EDUCATION:

That ob

MR. BUBU: It obtains also here, that is why I am speaking about it. This reduction was determined by the distance of the civil servant from his office to the nearest high school or hospital or town. Now they have to go the whole hog in paying the rent. What is worse still is that they are compelled to pay this rent whether they are occupying the house or not. This position, as can easily be realised, reduces their financial stability to the barest minimum. If their own homes are near their work, why should they be compelled to stay in the official quarters? We feel this is very unsatisfactory, Mr. Chai man, and it is a matter that should shake our confidence in the Govemment. It is bound to bring about disgruntlement in the civil service. 1 want to remind the Goverment that inefficiency and low morale follows in the train of this state of affairs and I must appeal to the Government to pay due attention to this matter. Closely allied with this, Mr. Chairman, is another matter which impinges on the civil servants as represented by the teaching profession. (Interjections) A circular was sent from the Government last year relating to what are called night concerts, and relating also to alleged moral looseness on the part of the teachers. While we do not condone such looseness, we at the same time do not associate ourselves with the giving of undue publicity to such looseness and we want to indicate our displeasure at it in an unmistakable manner. As an old profession, the teaching profession should have a moral code of conduct. If there are offences, as there sometimes are, against that code, we would expect that the matter should be taken up on a confidential basis, otherwise undue exposure of our civil servants is made. We cannot see how the Govemment could not be aware of this need and we would appreciate it very much if the hon. the Minister concemed would enlighten us on this position. THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS: Mr.

Chairman and hon. members, in supporting the amendment I want to say that with any nation or country it is not an easy matter to establish a govemment. All countries started at the bottom. Let us start with the Republic with the arrival of Jan van Riebeeck, who did not even have a house to live in. It took the Republic of South Africa more than 300 years to reach the position in which it now is. All other countries must follow that course. It has taken England over a thousand years and it has taken America about 500 years to reach the positions in which they are now. That is evidence that our Govemment cannot have its own pace faster than the countries which I have just mentioned. The Govemment is in its third year now. There are certain things which the Government has achieved, such as peace and happiness, with the exception of course that this peace is being disturbed by those people who now say they have no confidence in the Govemment. There is no greater difficulty in life than to try and tum the minds of the people who think they know. We on this side of the House are clinging to the policy of separate development. It is the only policy which we find will really develop our country. For years ago a deputation went to Pretoria to seek for self-govemment and when it was obtained they were grateful and retumed. Certain members signed and they were grateful for this self-govemment. Shortly after this started they tumed round and demanded multi-racialism . Multiracialism, as they themselves say, is the living together of races, but strange thing about it all is that the whites in this country reject it. It is only these people who want this policy. It is strange that they should be the people who invite other races here while at the same time complaining that the Transkei is small. These people have no rights in the Republic or in other countries. The whole world is looking on and is witnessing the development of the Transkei. Even the people in the loca tions are happy. We have sounded their feelings about this. The people whom we represent do not want multi-racialism, just as in other countries. No other country accepts multi-racialism. It is only the Opposition that does so and I am doubting their sincerity. Possibly some of them want it but some of them totally reject it. There are many and varied things which the Government has done, as I have told the House. The zoning of towns and planning for the people has been done by this Govemment.

MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Zoning was done by the Republican Government and not by your Govemment. THE MINISTER OF ROADS: Planning has been done. Obviously, as the Leader of the Opposition said, they are opposed to zoning. They obviously want the towns to be open so that a person can put up his place anywhere. I think I am correct in saying that is what the Leader said on Monday . The strange thing is, while you want towns to be open to all and sundry, the people you want to bring here do not want to share. ( Interjections) Let me remind you about what a Qumbu resident said just before zoning took place. I am doing this for the benefit of those who feel the towns should be open to all . When this gentleman gave his evidence before the committee, he said he did not want to live side by side with black people because they are filthy. I will not mention his name in the Assembly here because that would be out of order. I am certain that some of the members here, particularly those from Qumbu

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I H

•

know his name. We know that as we want these towns to be occupied by all the blacks, that is the wish of the people themselves. I am surprised that the honourable member for Maluti has tabled a request to the Republican Government for a loan to assist people to buy land. I am wondering where from . It is surprising when one thinks that a man is sensible, that he asks for money to buy land for his own occupation. Such remarks are disappointing, particulady when they come from such people as I have mentioned. Further, old age pensions have been raised by the Government. If the request for the raising of pensions had come from the Opposition, would the Government have done this unwillingly? The Government has improved the pensions for all the country, unlike the Opposition which wants to speak for one section only and not for the others. If the hon. member from Maluti were in the House now I would tell him, in the words of God, that a man cannot serve two masters at the same time because one would love the one and hate the other. I am talking about multi-racialism now. If you were asked which section you favour, what would you reply? As far as labourers ' wages are concemed, they have been raised considerably. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition has spoken at great length about these wages, alleging that labourers are only paid 50 cents. He said what was done for the labourers was disgraceful. I want to say that this Government took over when the people's wages were very low. Nothing good can be done just ove might. We are anxious to help these people and if we had our way we would actually give them help. Under the policy of separate development everything has been done, including relief measures because of the drought. (Interjections) Concerning agricultural projects we have already pointed out that the Govemment is taking steps in connection with the growing of tea, sugar and other things. The first meat factory is being built so that for the first time people's livestock will be bought. (Interjections) The land is now being transferred to us by the Republican Government. All these are the achievements of the Government. Irrigation schemes are also being carried out in order that this country may develop. To come to multiracialism, I have already told you that the people in the country do not want to hear about that policy. Let me tell you what happened at Cape Town during our visit there. When we arrived at Aberdeen (I want to make it clear to you that the people have confidence in this Government although you are criticizing it) the people spread out their shawls as they did in the Bible. They were doing this because they were happy and they were showing that they were convinced this was their salvation. (Interjections)

THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please. THE MINISTER OF ROADS: I will return to certain matters mentioned by other members . The hon. Chief Majeke stated that we have been given a small portion of the land, a mere drop, whereas the rest of the Republic we have given away as a gift. I want to make it clear that we are accepting what is our right. There is nothing one can get without right, and those people who have an eye on the whole of the Republic must be prepared to fight for it. Much was said in the House here about the organisation, Sons of the Transkei, by the hon. Mr. Mda. This is a strange thing and we ourselves do not know anything about it, so much so that we suspect

that you yourselves have fomed this organisation. MR. C.S. MDA: Why are you doing nothing to investigate it? THE MINISTER OF ROADS: Arrangements are afoot for that. Evidence of what I am saying is the activities of these people and it is now in the hands of the law courts. MR. MDA: If you refer to the minutes of yester day, Question No. 3, you will see that the Minister of Justice said no investigation is being made. THE MINISTER OF ROADS: In regard to education, I want to make it clear that our secondary schools are now full . Parents from the Republic are sending applications for the admission of their children to the Transkei schools. It is surprising that members across the floor are continually saying that our education is Bantu education, whereas some of them sat on the committees that decided that the present system was in order. They themselves oppose it. That is not strange because we now know it is the habit of the Opposition to agree to a matter one day and the next to oppose it, just as they have done in the case of the flag. This matter was taken out of party palitics but when they went to the country they put it back into the political field. How can any confidence be shown in such people? MR. K.M. GUZANA: The motion is that we have no confidence in the Government. THE MINISTER OF ROADS: The people could never have any confidence in you because today you say one thing and tomorrow another. I support the amendment and the people have appealed to the Government, and the Government has done certain things for the people. The roads have been repai red and if the hon. Mr. Diko were here he would bear me out. At one time he had to leave his car out in the veld, but today he can put it in his garage at night. You must realise that we do not discriminate. The hon. member has a road leading up to his house. DR. H.P. BALA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, from the very onset I will make certain admissions. In our shameful ignorance and gullibility we had mistakenly hoped there was something tangible in separate development, especially for the rank and file "darkies", but alas, I am afraid to say we are disappointed, disillusioned, frustrated, and we are in an angry mood - so much so, that we sometimes blame ourselves for ever joining this so- called Parliament. It would be no worse than the old Bunga. The old Bunga had its limitations. It was purely advisory; it was dominated by white magistrates, but this so-called parliament is the mere extension, with differences here and there, of the Bantu authorities system. In other words, it is a glorified T.T.A. without much more power and in this case it is dominated by Govemment appointees and their satellites , followers and other opportunists . Those have only been converted by force, by propaganda, by cajolery and by intimidation . In fact some of us, especially a Kaffir like myself, they will never admit that we should be here. I am here on tolerance because this is a monkey house.

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THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : What are you

doing here? DR. BALA: I am a monkey. (Laughter) That is why we are being ruthlessly and systematically liquidated, and we are going to be weeded out so that the true product of the Transkei can blossom out. And that liquidation is being carried out under the cloak of legality. Those are Hitler's followers, the Chancellor and Fuehrer of the Third Reich. That means that this is not the right place to air griev ances of the rank and file unless you conform to separate development, otherwise you are going to be destroyed. I, for one, will never accept separate development. I would rather die, not as a martyr but simply because I am resolved never to accept it. The dilemma of the African in the Transkei , as elsewhere in the Republic, is that now he has no political expression (I mean those who do not conform to separate development) because all the existing political organisations have been outlawed. They cannot even go underground because the Ludis will be there to ferret them out. So what can we do? The philosophy behind separate development is all wrong. What makes it wrong? As the famous Lovedale principal - that famous writer and preacher, Dr. Robert Shepherd, said: What is right is right, and what is wrong is wrong. The two are incompatible. Now why should I say it is wrong? Because they say a Kaffir is not a human being. He is an animal, a mon grel, a baboon, a non-person, or probably, if they recog nize him as a person , he is inferior, or he is invisible and has no rights whatsoever. He is a boy; he is a savage; he cannot be civilised at all ; he cannot be westernized at all.

suffering, disease of all types have just remained the same. There has been no freedom whatsoever Sometimes I envy the white man in the Transkei here because they are enjoying freedom, because he is enjoying it without let or hindrance , but alas, there is no freedom for me. Much has been said about freedom of speech , but I would add a word that ever since we were elected to represent Fingoland we have never been allowed to report to the people of Nqamakwe, from the time we were elected until now, and I think the man who is responsible is on my left here. He is the tribal chief and together with his majority of tribal authority members, they have never allowed us to report to some of the locations in that area. Lastly, much has been said about the disparity between the civilized state of the European and the black man. Well, some of them are in a civilized state, probably simply because of the climate he 1 has himself created. I think civilisation has spoilt those who have failed to be civilized. Those writers of the French Revolution, such as Voltaire, were convinced that the civilized man is spoilt. He must become simple so that we can meet on a basis of equality. One last word - I think much has been made of our colour which is said to be objectionable or untouchable. I think it is high time that the white man should indict God and ask Him why He made these people black, because it is not our fault that we are black. The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION

18

The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. GOVERNMENT MEMBER: That is multi-racialism. DR. BALA: No , it is not. The followers of separate development say the Kaffir must be kept in his place. That is the essence of their policy. The Kaffir is a poor creature. The Kaffir is an animal of the veld. He eats , he dies like an animal. A Kaffir is also a child and a child must be looked after by the father. That old idea of patemalism and trusteeship we find still remains in this, the twentieth century, the jet age. Those ideas are still obtaining. Now I maintain that I am a human being and therefore I must have equality in respect of civic rights. I must have the right to vote, to own property, the right of freedom. But all these things are denied me because I am a " skepsel " , and consequently the policy is immoral. South Africa at the present moment is suffering from moral myopia . They continue to cling to that prostitute which I call separate development. (Interjections) That is why we cling to the teaching of the Scriptures, unless we are just conventional Christians. The policy is also unrealistic. Now when a person rationalizes on the difference between the black man and the white man, he can convince himself but he cannot convince himself on hard facts . He entres the world of fantasy , of dreams , and then cheats himself. In other words, he indulges in selfdelusion. Now do you think I can associate myself with all those? I want to make brief reference to the land question. South Africa is a white man's land the whole country. Now as a person who has nothing I can only say that it is not true because we also know no other land. South Africa is also our homeLand. Lastly, to come to a bit of the Transkei , this first Bantustan, there has been no change whatsoever through the rank and file. The misery , squalor,

H The debate on the motion of no confidence was resumed.

MR. A. MFEBE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, much has been said in this debate on the no-confidence motion. As I listened to the arguments ofthe supporters of the motion, I noted that some ofthe I words were to the effect that because of the no confidence in the Government it has brought the Government to an end altogether, whereas there is something which surprises us. Not one of theOpposition members has walked out of this hall to show he has no confidence in the Govemment. That would と be real proof to show they had no confidence in the Government. As far as we are concemed there is no other Government that we have more faith in than the present one. The question that is being asked is what is the Government doing? They say that whatever has been achieved is what the Republican Government has done. Had this present Government not come into existence , how would the Republican Govemment have brought about these things? Whatever has come back to the people has come back as a result of the presence of this Government. I do not know what all 1 this noise is about. However, let me say you should ' not be like the people who have no faith. Wait ! Great things are coming to you , greater than the things that ! have already been achieved. Our people are divided into two groups. There are those who can analyse whatever they want to say. There are those who can achieve things that can be seen and approved. You will note also that there are people here whose doings L are oflittle credit. One of the hon. members said that the Government has not been Christian. Remember the man who said there is a mote in the eye of his neighbour, whereas there is a beam in his own eye.

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1

The Opposition has not as yet told us definitely what they say is no proof of the achievements of the Government. Some people are able to make mountains out of mole hills , but indeed all the time they have nothing to prove what they are saying. However, we are well acquainted with this type of thing and people can preach and yet they say nothing. As I stand here something comes to my mind. Once there was a boy whose mother was a witch-doctoress. This boy evidently had the spirit of witchcraft in him. The young boy did not, however, want to become a witch-doctor and therefore he ran away from home and he went from place to place and did not sleep at home. He was being driven away by the spirit. Sometimes as you watch you will find that there are people of that kind. Reference has been made to the fact that the Ministers run about the countryside in black cars. Why this attitude? If you were in their shoes what would you say? Once there was a minister who preached about separate development to his congregation. His congregation bought a car for him and he travelled about in this car, where as this minister did not do exactly what he preached to his people and he put people into a difficulty, for they followed what he said. What is important is that we must put something tangible in front of the people and say: This is what has been achieved. The Government side ought really to be saying they have no faith in the Opposition. The Opposition side says there are people who are not educated on this side , but this is interesting: These educated people cannot see what the uneducated people can see. There are two things in this respect to be educated and to leam. An educated man is very different from a person who has been taught. An educated man makes himself known and appreciated by his ways and as a result of that educated people have no faith one inthe other. I do not know how trustful they are to their party members. (Interjections) Mr. Chairman, up to now the present Government has achieved many things. We cannot cope with people who today say one thing and the next day something different. Only yesterday reference was made to these partition planks - things which were called for by this Houseand now they say they do not want them. This Government has achieved great things for the people . One thing I can mention is that these members now have their bellies full, whereas formerly they used to be ill-fed. I do not know what it is that the Government is expected to do when we know very well that great things cannot happen overnight. It is clear to us that while people are marching forward the Opposition has not one aim in view. (Interjections ) I think everybody is convinced that the Government has achieved things for which the people are grateful . Where in this world have you found road workers earning as much as 50 cents a day? It does not matter to you how much they pay in taxes. The Government is wide awake and the reason you are here is because we can have faith in our Government. I can tell you, you are not sincere in your ideas. Many people say they are helping the people, whereas they are not helping them at all. They are killing them. Mr. Chairman, I do not want to waste your time. Whatever this is, it is just wasting our time. All that has been said now is quite useless. They are not telling us about those things we have achieved. MR. J. DUMALISILE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support the no-confidence motion now before the House. I think the two parties of this House, and particularly the Government party, will agree that our members have raised the parliamentary standard. That has been obvious since its

inception. I think that the Governing party should take serious consideration of all the things the Opposition members express because we want them to be aware of their shortcomings . It is something they cannot deny that among the Opposition members there are elected members. As the hon. the Minister of Justice mentioned, there are some people who have come up like mushrooms. I should like to say that the people who are very much like mushrooms are on the other side. I hope the hon. member will not take exception to what I say, but I am here as a representative of the people. We are now debating the question of separate development, which is the policy of the Governing party. Our reason for saying we have no confidence in the Government is because it is not just ourselves in the party , but the people outside as well. They have asked us to come and express their views. It has already been expressed that separate development cannot be put into effect. Since I have been a teacher I am prone to using parables when I make illustrations. The Governing party which supports separate development has been given this " nqoma" beast by Dr. Verwoerd, but they did not find out whether it was a healthy beast or not. If they do not go carefully into things they will finally become untrustworthy people who do not look sufficiently into things. I will read you the words of Mr. Abraham, the Commissioner - General, when he addressed the Civic Association of the Transkei. He said : "The whites will remain an intergral and essential part of the Transkei for many , many , many years. "" There are three " many's" there. (Laughter) He further said: " No one, white or black can at this stage of the Transkei's development say with even a reasonable shade of accuracy when the territory would be entirely black. It will have to make use of the white officials of the Republic for a considerably long time. " This last month their friend who, together with Mr. Hughes, was a candidate for election · a certain Mr. Coetzee says this : "Not a single white would ever be forced to leave the Transkei . This assurance had been given by Dr. Verwoerd and would be kept. " That is why I contend that the Government party have not carefully studied what Dr. Verwoerd said to them as he handed over to them this " nqoma" beast. There is a photograph of the hon . the Chief Minister of the Transkei (he that is also the head boy here ) at Fort Hare last Saturday . He is there among elderly ladies and I do not know whether they were shaking hands with him because they were leaving the Transkei . He himself will tell us whether they were leaving or not. To come to another point, in the rehabilitated areas the people are being removed from where they originally lived. I have not heard one of these people say: Wait awhile, I want to finish the garden before I leave , or the wall I was building. It is surprising to us that the buildings of European people are rising daily, whereas we are told they are leaving the territory . Let the Government side agree that their policy of separate development cannot be put into effect . ( Interjections ) Here is our reason for saying we have no confidence in the Goverment. Among other things , if anyone would be in a position to raise a loan from the Bantu Investment Corporation to pay back in 20 years ' time, to whom will that money be paid back when the Europeans will have left? There is nothing put before us to show that there will be a diplomatic channel when the whites leave . How long will it take you to understand the position ? We had hoped that by this time the Transkei Government would have had negotiations with the Republican Govern-

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ment, particularly with reference to the famine that is being experienced in this country , so that people may be free to go to any work centres where they may find employment. There is one thing that we noted and that is the people who move about in these towns wanting to go to the mines. The difficulty that these labourers face is that they cannot say what type of work they want. Further, if you go under a mine contract you are given a definite time and at the expiry of that period you are told you may go home. How long will you be there before you can get increments , because every time you are a newcomer? It brings us to the conclusion. therefore that the Government has no aim for the people because the Government is not an elected Government. It is a Government that has just come about because they were chiefs. It is for that reason that there is this installation business among the chiefs , because they want to increase their side. As we examine the old age pension fund, this month they received an increased pension . The following month they find it has been lowered and we are being told that the pension fund has been increased. May I refer now to the hon. the Minister of Education. He will be awake even in the future. I remember very well when we were at the festival at Idutywa, where he was asked to address the meeting. He promised the teachers there that their salaries would be raised. From the day he expressed this until now, some of the teachers have not even received their salaries. Some receive a salary one month and not the next. I know that from personal experience. Last week he reported that the school boards had come to an end. Everything would be in the hands of the school committees. I do not know whether he took the power into his own hands, that he should transfer teachers at will. THE servants.

CHIEF MINISTER: Teachers are civil They can be transferred at any time .

MR. DUMALISILE: They are in the professional service and they should not be subject to transfer without consultation with the local authorities . This is what happens : It was expressed in this House and there have been threats all the time. This is a funny thing in the Department of Education. Before the letter transferring a teacher is received, it is already known in the kitchen departments . Anything which takes place between the departments and its servants has to be a closed procedure according to the regulations. The teachers have commitments with their local committees for building and putting up schools and other matters. Now it happens that a teacher is transferred without the teacher ever knowing beforehand. We wish to put it in very good words to the hon. the Minister of Education that he is not a messenger boy in the department and that in the future he should be considerate about the future of our children. I speak with authority because I am a teacher myself.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am not rising up because of the speech of the last speaker. It was my intention in any case. I am very pleased to see that the hon. Dr. Bala has opened his eyes. He has been asleep most of the morning. What he said here is nothing new. It is a complaint that is 300 years old, but the surprising thing is that a member of the Democratic Party should actually suggest someone should go to Almighty God to make representations on behalf of the black people. Is that perhaps the reason why there is this clinging to the policy of multi-

racialism? Is it because the whites are the only people who can reach God because they are the only people who can get to the moon? I want to remind the House of what General Smuts said when he introduced the Native Affairs Act which was the forerunner of this Assembly and of the Ciskei Bunga. He said : "I do not believe that the black man will ever be anything but I have decided to give him this law to enable him to show his worth for, if I do not do so, I can foresee a danger as little as a hand which will grow and eventually overshadow the sky. " The black people for a long time have been living under the same conditions about which the hon. Dr. Bala is complaining. We have been suffering hardships. (Interjections ) I sympathize with the Leader of the Opposition. He has a team of crabs and platanas. He has a very heavy burden on his shoulders. What General Smuts said when he was giving the Native people their own law has now given rise to this , because it was realised that the Native people had for a long time had practice in self-government. I am sorry that the hon. Chief Majeke is not present because I intended to attach him just now. When we left the Assembly yesterday he said to me: I don't think you will sleep well. " That reminded me of one of Aesop's fables in which a bull went to the river to drink and a gnat kept buzzing round his head. Eventually the gnat whispered into the bull's ear: "I hope I am not too heavy for you.'"" The bull replied: "I did not even know you were there." When you heard the hon. member yesterday saying that the chiefs were in the position in which they are today because of what they had done in Pretoria. It is the first time I have heard self-praise in this House. What I do know is that his habits are those of a turncoat. He says this today, and that tomorrow. We were together in Pretoria when he asked for independence and when someone suggested a go-slow policy he wanted to tear him to pieces. Today he has moved away from the idea of independence. How can the people follow such a man, who says one thing one day and something else the next? We have been asking ourselves what is actually behind this idea that the chiefs should be given an upper house. The chiefs should remain where the laws are made. How can you say they should decide on matters in an upper house when you have pointed fingers in their faces? Again, the hon. member remarked that I have besmirched the good name of the teachers . (Interjections) I have not the ability to disgrace or degrade anybody, nor do I think there is anyone among you who has the ability to degrade anyone. A person degrades himself. What I object to is that these things should be done in the presence of your children about whom the last speaker spoke. All educationists know that the important person is the child. If you place the teacher before the child, then apparently we shall have to part ways. A teacher must do things that will help the children. To come to my friend, the hon. member for Maluti , I see that this morning he gave himself a holiday. I have been casting my eyes over there but I did not see him in his seat. Last year I said education was not in his line. I believe this worried him. I commend him on his speech yesterday because he quoted people like Goeffrey Chaucer and William Shakespear, but the wolf's tail showed itself when he referred to the Cingo Commission as notorious. There he showed himself as a man who is not a scholar. He went on to say that I and my Secretary were not fit and proper persons because we were members of this commission. I can assure the hon. member that we

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15

18

E

7

རྦ

7

1

have

received

letters

from

Universities outside

this country commending us for our report. I can assure him that the select committee appointed here in 1964, with the aim of studying the recommendations of that commission , did not have the sentiments that this commission was notorious because all the recommendations of the Cingo Commission were upheld by the committee and the Assembly. Το come to my friend, the hon. Mr. Guzana, first of all I wish to congratulate him on having attained the position of leadership of the party which we have always thought he deserved. I also thank him for looking after the old man beside him. Wisdom is found in those white hairs and therefore my advice to him is to keep close to them and to respect even those who are on the other side. Let me give you this advice: I hope you will not be swollen-headed as a result of the flattering and pampering lavished on you by the Daily Dispatch. Separate development has been accepted by the whites in this country. The results of the general election were evidence that the policy of separate development is growing stronger and stronger. Of course you are entitled to your own opinion but all the world will judge South Africa by the results of the last election. In my opinion, Mr. Hughes suceeded simply because he is Mr. Hughes. Secondly, when a man is drowning he clutches at any straw, and such are the whites of the Transkei by whose standards you want to judge. They are very anxious about being removed from this country and in their anxiety Mr. Hughes promised them this, that and the other thing. Let us not behave like a bee which when it wants to go through the window pane, even though it is glass will remain there all the time. We can see no benefit for the people in your policy. We have listened to all the remarks of the hon. Dr. Bala but the people want bread, and they are getting bread since this Government took over. (Interjections)

THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: They are getting more than was formerly the case. These offices of ours are filled with our youth. The people never held these positions formerly. The roads are full of vehicles driven by Africans. To come to education, I want to say that my hon. friend spoke very constructively during the last session in our select committee meetings. He actually promised us co-operation and I was tempted to take politicians and let them serve on these committees, to draw the syllabi you wanted. I went out of my way in that I took politicians and appointed them to those committees . Unfortunately my hon. friend never set his foot anywhere near those committee meetings. Now he has the audacity to come and say that the syllabus is not what they wanted. Again, he criticized the syllabus committees which were appointed, on the grounds that they were civil servants. I do not know whether we in the Transkei should adopt different methods from those employed in other countries. This is a common practice in this country. We had the Welsh Commission and that commission comprised Senator W. T. Welsh ; Chief Inspector for the Cape, G.H. Welsh ; Chief Inspector for the Transvaal, Mr. Franz; Chief Inspector Kushcke for the Free State ; and Chief Inspector Malcolm from Natal. All these people were civil servants and no one despised their findings. MR . N.C. NOGCANTSI: You are talking about

European education . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: It is the practice and you are trying to belittle this committee. During the last session I thanked my hon. friend from Qaukeni and the hon. Miss Twetwa for the work they had done, but my information is that he caused certain disturbances in this committee instead of rendering assistance. I am surprised that they did not catch him by the neck and push him outside. You cannot escape all the blame. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Are you admitting some blame then that you say that? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I am not in a court of law now. In your policy of multi-racialism you often refer to us as cowards. One speaker said independence cannot be brought to us on a tray like a cup of tea. Before it can be obtained there will be bloodshed. We are quite used to that type of talk. Very often the blood that is shed is the blood of innocent people. The hon. member said he was attacking us because we had failed in implementing the recommendations of the committee. I have a file here which contains the decisions of the committee which have been approved. He knows well that today Xhosa is not the medium of instruction from Sub A to Std. VI. What he said about Xhosa replacing English touches upon the speech made by the hon. the Chief Minister at a Party Congress. I will just dispose of it. The basis of education is that a child understands best what is taught to it through its mother tongue. That is why in most countires the children are taught in their mother tongue, but that does not alter the fact that other languages can be taught to the children as subjects. Further, the reason why we agreed that Xhosa should be taught up to Std. II was the absence of books in the secondary schools on subjects which can be taught in Xhosa. I have my own opinion about the subjects like maths , arithmetic and science. Until the time comes for Xhosa to be used as medium of instruction in the senior classes for those subjects , it will be necessary that they be taught in a foreign language. MR. GUZANA : Is medium of instruction the only thing you have implemented? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: No , I have quite a list here. Today when a child enters school the parents or guardians must sign an undertaking to say they will see that those children will remain at school. The age limit has been lowered. Children are supplied with class readers both in English, Afrikaans and Xhosa. Numerous things are taking place, but unfortunately I have not the time to tell about them now. I still have my policy statement to make and I will educate you about these things then. (Interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . paramount chiefs and hon. members, I will draw your attention to Rules 39 and 40 of the regulations which read : " 39. It shall be out of order to use offensive and insulting language about members of the Assembly. " Rule 40 reads: "A member shall not impute improper motives to another member. "" ' Hon. members will understand that as your Chairman I am not asleep. My eyes and ears are open and there must be discipline in the House I allow interjections but one of the members made a serious interjection to the member who has just sat down now. I heard what

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he said but he would not repeat it. I will not name that member but he must know that I heard what he said. MR. L.T. MAZWI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support the motion of no confidence in the Government. I am happy to have to rise after my old teacher, but I am only sorry that today he is telling me that all he taught me is not true. The hon. Minister has put into print things about night concerts which have disappointed us because he exposed the character of the teachers. I am happy to say that those teachers are the result of his own work and efforts. It disappoints us that elderly people should say disrespectful things. If in the public press things like pregnancy of girls are openly and publicy expressed, it disappoints us younger people. How can we have confidence in a Government which is led by people of such opinions and ideas? Further, one very important reason why we have no confidence in the present Government is that the Government is composed of chiefs. It is quite obvious that they are struggling as hard as they can to see that the Government of this country will be placed in the hands of one or two people, but the Government party say they are representing democratic principles this Government which allows that the chiefs are represented by 64 members . How many chiefs are there in the Transkei ? (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR . MAZWI : And a million people are represented by only 45 members. How can we therefore have confidence in a Goverment like that? It is quite evident how this Government works. When the law relating to tribal authorities was being enacted, even then it was pointed out that there was only one member in three to represent the people. In school committees the same sort of thing took place. The parents only elected one person out of three. It is quite clear that the chiefs want to rule as they wish in this country , and I therefore can have no confidence in such a Govemment. Further, how can one have confidence in a Government that condones laws which are to the detriment of the interests of the people? - Laws that oppress our people politically ; laws that oppress our people economically? I refer to such laws as Proclamation 400, (Interjections ) the influx control regulations and the Bantu Laws Amendment Act. This Goverment condones those laws. How can we therefore have confidence in such a Govemment? Look at the difficulties that our people suffer through the influx control regulations which have turned the a labour camp , in Transkei into a labour reserve other words. There are those people from whom you are separate who will benefit from the laws imposed on our people - the European people. Our people are subject to the whims and wishes of their employers without any pay at all . Why don't you, as a Government, sponsor an open labour market where a man can at any time , as any European can, move anywhere in the country to work anywhere ? The black man should have that opportunity. It is a pity that certain of the Ministers have grown up with butter in their hands and never really experienced the hardships that the people in the labour centres do. I am coming to a very shameful thing perpetrated by a Government that is said to be civilized. Last year, although I was not here during the session, I know what you did. There was a question of poor relief because of the drought in the

Transkei. There were suggestions of subsidies on the grain that was to be bought from elsewhere. Fortunately or unfortunately, to show exactly what the Government is , they opposed that motion only to enslave our African womenfolk. I was thankful that they did because now the people know what the Government is . Where in the history of civilized countries have you ever seen womenfolk working on the roads as public servants?

15

A CHIEF MAKOSONKE SIGCAU : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, in regard to the speech of the last speaker it is a disgraceful thing to speak about the teachers as he did. THE CHAIRMAN : Sit down, please, hon . member. MR. MAZWI : Where have you ever heard of them as public labourers? That is only known in the Nazi countries during the time of Hitler and also in Russia during the time of Stalin , where women were regimented and sent to the fields to work there in the employ of the Government. This is a very disgraceful situation, gentlemen . (Interjections) You are supposed to be giving these people poor relief.... CHIEF MAKOSONKE SIGCAU : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , look at the time. I do not want to be prevented from speaking.

C

7

THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. MAZWI : For your information on the other side, widows elsewhere in the Republic other than in the Transkei, black, white and yellow, are being catered for on special grants and in your Goverment you employ them at 25 cents a day in sometimes cold and adverse weather, making roads for your comfort. And then we are expected to have confidence in a Government like that. One hon. member on the other side said white South Africa accepts separate development and he went on to say that the Transkei Europeans voted for Mr. Hughes only because they feared they would be chased away and they thought he would protect them. If the Transkei Europeans accept separate development, why should they fear to go away? Again, you go into the question of committees in connection with the syllabi recommended in this House. That is not the issue at stake. The question is : Is the present syllabus Bantu Education or Transkei Education? THE

CHIEF

MINISTER:

It

is educational.

MR . MAZWI: Is it in accordance with the recommendations of this House which recommended the Cape Education Department syllabus? I am not concerned about the commissions you are referring to and all the rest of it, but has the syllabus been drawn up as was recommended , and if not, why not? THE CHIEF MINISTER: The answer is in the affirmative. MR. MAZWI: It is definitely not. We know the Cape Education syllabus. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Tell us what it is.

MR. MAZWI: I am not here to tell you that now. There is no time. Now I thought the hon. members on the other side would tell us exactly what the

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policy of their party is but all they do is dwell on multi-racialism which is our policy, not theirs. I must tell you frankly that separate development will never come about completely. What should be happening now is the removal of the six Ministers and placing them in the benches where the Secretaris sit, and take those six Secretaris and put them as Ministers of the Transkei because the policy that is being perpetuated by that party is the policy of the six Secretaries. (Laughter) And you as Africans, and you as Transkeians, most unfortunately have no policy whatsoever and therefore I support the motion that we have no confidence in the Government.

2

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R

at Qumbu, tried to be an obstacle. If, however, anything happened there, only God knows. There is a question that is constantly being asked in this House: What has the Government to show for what it has done for the people? I come from Tsolo and I would like every member in this House to rise and speak for the region he represents so that when we come to summarise everything it will be evident that the Government has done many things. I can tell you some of the things the Goverment has done in Tsolo. In the forestry department , where formerly Europeans were in charge, now Bantu officials are in charge. Secondly, this Government in which we have confidence has enabled the people to form their own committees in the schools and among the members of those committees there are chiefs who have been elected. Some of

CHIEF D. MDITSHWA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise up to support the Government in this motion. The last speaker said that some of the members here have never spoken a word. Among his remarks he spoke of this old man, the hon. the Minister of Education. He said that whoever did not keep to the facts, it was because of the education he gave them. He did not say, however, that those who were capable and were able to make a good stand were also educated by him . I would like to say that in this Legislative Assembly it is the procedure (I don't know whether it is the general law or whether it is Native custom) that when the chiefs come here they come to represent their

the members asked when the Europeans will leave the Transkei. I would like all the members of this House to remember what is happening in their own regions. In the office at Tsolo there are only three Europeans now. The charge office at Tsolo is nearly complete now. It has been erected by this Government. We also are in the process of erecting a bank building. With reference to zoning, in the Tsolo region many people have acquired land. (Interjections) The hon. members who have no confidence in the Government are actually responsible for holding up progress. There are people who stand to speak on behalf of the Europeans and who also borrow the views of the Europeans. I think the people who are of those opinions are responsible for keeping back the remuneration that ought to be paid to our own children, because

people, and that when we debate for and against, some of them state they are elected members. I do not know whether it is the practice followed by elderly men in this Assembly, or whether the younger men will show their own method and procedure. We are a Government and were the fathers of some

they say the Europeans must remain longer here. How long must they remain with us? (Interjections) Our children should hold the posts that are now held by Europeans. You want them to stay longer here. By all this I am indicating that we have confidence in the Govemment. In regard to the meetings that have been allowed in the different regions, in Tsolo Democratic Party and T.N.I.P. meetings are held but we ask people who hold meetings to follow the usual procedure and they must accept what we say. They are our children.

of the members in this Assembly. That being so, when you are going to address your own child there comes a time when you apportion a name to him. You cannot talk to a child that has not been christened. You have to give a name even to your little dog. Therefore I mean that like a respectable Government in whom we have confidence I will not say "this side of the House " or "that side of the House ", for every member is here to stand for the law of the country. I would like to refer to these our children D those that say they are the Opposition. I would like to say to you that you must agree when I say you are our children. I make this observation because of the remarks of the hon. Chief Majeke , who last year referred to me saying he had seen me in one of the black Govemment cars. If I was in that car, then I was where the Government ought to be because I belong to the Government. He too, Mr. Chairman, has a right to get into that same car for he is the son of this living Government. If he has a grudge against the chiefs, I wonder if he feels honoured by his own chieftainship? If he is a chief at Qumbu he ought to show respect to other chiefs. If the hon. Chief Majeke did go to Cape Town with the other chiefs , does he regret that ne went to represent the people and the Government? Now that he is in that chair is he not under a Government?

The debate was adjourned . The Assembly adjoumed until Thursday, 28th April, 1966.

11

a.m. on

THURSDAY, 28TH APRIL, 1966. The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.

Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.

NO-CONFIDENCE. The debate was resumed.

CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Which Government are you talking about?

MR. O.O. MPONDO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to add to what has been said on the motion of no confidence in the Government.

CHIEF MDITSHWA: The Government that we have confidence in, the Government that administers the Transkei. I do not want to refer to individuals in this House but if I do so there is a reason : This Chief I am referring to who is attacking his own chieftainship, who attacks my chieftainship, who, when we were trying to put right the chieftainship

What strikes me is that during the debate on this question is the reply of the members on the other side, from their leader to the other members who have spoken, in order to rebut what has been said by us. I was most disappointed in the reply of the hon. the Minister of Justice. He is a man whom I respect highly and who is my friend. I regard him as

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THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are confused. You

a man who is better bred than the people on the other side. He has gone down in our opinion, while we have elevated the position. I would like to say a few words in connection with education. The hon.

do not know what you are saying.

MR. MPONDO: You know nothing about education. You know I have been a principal teacher for years. You have never been a teacher. (Interjections) You shut up . THE CHIEF MINISTER: You have been proved to be an idiot. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. When the hon. member speaks he should not attack the Secretary. He may attack the Minister but the Secretary cannot defend himself. MR. MPONDO: In this department you will find circulars which are undesirable, issued by that department. These circulars refer to the examination of lady teachers who are pregnant. They should be examined by the principal and it is further stated that if that principal does not do that examination he will be in trouble. It is also said that the principal must see to it that the assistant teachers do not get drunk in the street. If the assistant teacher is seen drunk and the principal does not report that, then the principal will be in trouble. Here is a thing that has recently happened in Qumbu. One lady teacher was forced to come and see the doctor in Umtata because it was alleged that she was pregnant. The principal accused the lady teacher of this, but he was obeying instructions from the Department of Education · that rotten department. If we have a person at the head of that department who is like this man, we do not know where we are going to with education in the Transkei. Let me now speak of the Department of Justice. There is something that is worrying us in our minds, and the whole of the Republic is unhappy about that matter. It is in connection with Mr. Ndamse. When the hon. the Minister of Justice spoke in Port Elizabeth, he said, to show that he is not a puppet of the Republican Government: "We have taken Mr. Ndamse who was dismissed by the Republican Government and given him work in the Transkei. " Shortly after he said those words a bomb fell on Mr. Ndamse from the Republic. What did the hon. Minister in charge do then? What does he say of the words he spoke in Port Elizabeth? I will return to the Education Department.

himself by action. (Interjections) With due respect to the chiefs , I want to assure them that if they do not want this proclamation repealed they will be in danger from their subjects. I did not tell you the result of the lady teacher who was sent from Qumbu to Umtata. She was sent on suspicion to the doctor here and the doctor found she was not pregnant. Do not forget that a person's name can be defamed. Let me say a few words about your policy of separate development. The policy of separate development is the policy of chiefs. It was made for the chiefs in order that they should administer and oppress the people. That is against the policy of the Democratic Party which wants govemment of the people for the people. These things work against each other. The policy of separate development does not belong to the people across the floor. They have taken it from the Nationalist Party. All they do is merely to imitate what the Nationalist Party does. You will find that anybody who is against them is said to be a communist, just as their father does in the Republic . Anybody who wants his rights is a communist. I can remember the time when my friend, the hon. the Minister of Justice, was still in his senses, when he was still an attomey in Engcobo. I think he was going round telling the people what was good and what they should do . Mr. Roberts was his great friend at the time. (Interjections) He used to attend meetings and that is why the people of Engcobo are still keeping

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THE CHIEF MINISTER: What do you know about education?

MR. MPONDO: In connection with the question of Mr. Ndamse the Transkeian voters and all the residents of the Republic want to know where some thing like this has ever happened · that a person who is not working should be receiving a salary. (Interjections) The hon. the Minister of Agriculture wants to know if this matter worries us. Why should we not be worried when a person is getting a full salary and yet is not working? We hope that the hon. the Minister of Education will touch on this matter when he gives his policy speech. Let us now go back again to the Department of Justice. They have Proclamation 400 which they want to keep hanging over the heads of the people of the Transkei. The world should know the object of this proclamation. It was passed in 1960 when there was trouble in some parts of the Transkei. You will remember that there were other troubles in the Republic at Sharpville and Langa, but as soon as there was peace again the proclamation was lifted there. In the Transkei however this proclamation still remains. You will find that the aim was to bring in this policy of separate devel opment in order to shut the mouths of the people and prevent them from saying anything they did not want. Today any person who says anything against separate development is locked behind bars. The Transkei has changed today and it is just like Germany in Hitler's time. Today nobody is expected to say anything against this system. We cannot have any confidence in this Government at all. It is a Government which wants to rule its people with a knobbed stick; a Government which does not want freedom of speech from its people. It is said that this proclamation is to protect the chiefs. I can assure you that it is making matters worse for the chiefs because the subjects of these chiefs cannot speak freely and voice their views. Any person, irrespective of colour, once he is told to close his mouth you can be sure that instead of expressing himself by word of mouth he will express

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the Chief Minister said yesterday when we were speaking about committees that he was not on the committee. He saw trying to get himself out of the trouble in which he finds himself in this connection. I would like the hon. the Chief Minister to see that changes are made in that department. He must remove the old man from that department because there is a hope that once he is removed the rot that is there will be removed. The danger that has been caused to the residents of the Transkei and even the people of the Republic is great because of the presence of the hon. Minister in that department. It became worse when his Secretary was transferred here from Natal who, when we said we wanted Cape education, then introduced education from Natal. He brought Bantu education as used in Natal to this country. Because he is not a Minister but only a boy who has just to listen to his Secretary, it became clear that....

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their senses, because of what he told them then. I remember at one meeting when he said: "If you can be firm and strong like this man, you will defeat all your enemies. " He was referring to Sobukwe. (Laughter) At that time he was still in his senses, but today he is what he is. He lost his attorneyship and then when he left he came here. (Interjections)

THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. MPONDO : They put the whole Transkei in difficulties when they put him on that side, dirty as he is. The Republican Govemment has disappointed us by putting a meerkat on that side. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up at this late period of the debate because I was expecting all the time to hear something tangible from the other side. I did not hear anything right from the new Leader of theOpposition. He kept on dilly-dallying and playing with words to the extent that the whole House went to sleep in the two and a half hours he was addressing the House. Fresh in my mind is the speech by the soapbox orator on the other side, the newcomer, the hon. Mr. Mazwi . What one could detect from his speech was his inclination to the organisation he once belonged to · the notorious A.N.C. , and if he is not very careful he will soon be behind bars. (Interjections)

because he was expressing himself in Afrikaans. I notice that people on the front benches hardly ever opened their eyes and the Rev. Rajuili went and fetched some cotton to put in his ears. Coming to the motion itself, so much has been said about Ndamse, as if Ndamse was one of our Ministers or that he was one of our supporters. How could an outsider like that go into the question of education? Why did your papers make such a noise about it? I will warn all the speakers who are going to speak today to refer no further to Ndamse because Ndamse is our citizen and the Government is looking after him well. You will probably hear from the right sources, the hon. the Chief Minister, tomorrow so you may save your breath . Proclamation R.400 - I am sorry my friend, the hon. Mr. Dana, was absent when it was discussed because he is an authority on that subject. Nobody could give us anything tangible but I will just give you an instance in so far as Eastern Pondoland is concerned, which favours the retention of Proclamation 400. These people will never be affected by R.400 so they need not fear unless, of course, they do such foolish things as to employ Mr. Doubt and other people and speak of retrenching our leader by unconstitutional means.

• MR. K.G. NOTA: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order in connection with what has been said on this matter. The matter is still in the hands of the Court and I do not think the hon. member should refer to it.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : He is going no further than what has been said in the papers.

THE CHAIRMAN : Order, order. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman, I will just refer to a few remarks he has made. He spoke about the enslavement of our womenfolk being required to dig roads which, of course, was false and showed lack of truth, because he could not distinguish between relief work and ordinary labour. (Interjections) He said he had come to contribute a very high standard of debate but if there are lies in any debate, it does not matter how high it is, it loses its backbone. The idea about relief work is not really to make anybody rich, but it is to spread the relief to as many people as possible and if we have to pay R10 to each labourer, how far would that fund go? If he had only gone to a gang of labourers on the relief work scheme, he would find them singing and rolling stones with practically no supervision over them and then at the end of the day they are given their food. Again he referred to pension schemes. It was also a lie, perhaps through ignorance, because the reason why these people got high pay on one occasion was that arrears had been included. Then, of course the following month it stands to reason they were just given what was due to them. It was certainly higher than the previous amount. Now speaking of high debate, I wish to refer to the debate contributed by my friend, the hon. Dr. Bala. I am sorry he is not in his chair today. Perhaps he is indisposed because one could gather from his speech that there was something wrong with his mind. (Laughter) He was most deeply scathing of the white man, even more bitter than Stalin would have been or Kruschev or Kosagin or the man from China. Now is that high debate, and what did he contribute? Was he for multi-racialism or separate development? There is no middle way. We have either to be for separate development or for multi-racialism. Now if a man of his calibre could descend so low and call us monkeys and dogs and what-not, and refer to us as helping ourselves with big black cars.... (Interjections) Perhaps some of you did not follow him

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: You know, it is like a Hydra head where you cut off one head and two other heads spring up. (Laughter) Now another head has risen up from this Hydra and it has gone to Eastem Pondoland. That is the African People's Democratic Union of South Africa. I do not know whether perhaps some of the members on the other side are members of that organisation. Now if we did not have this proclamation on hand we would not control these people. Just as lately as last week, when these hon. members were apprehended, another man called Dazana was also apprehended. He is a teacher and he was charged in Bizana with belonging to this illegal organisation. You will be pleased to hear perhaps or the other way roundthat he was given a clear fifteen months and necessarily he will lose his post as a teacher, and perhaps you will blame the Minister. Coming to the Leader, a man I respect very much, he referred to my department in these tems - that these projects we boast of, including the dam at Qamata, the tea at Lambasi and of course our development in forestry and our phormium tenax, were all sponsored by the previous regime, but he was wrong in saying that they were babies of the T.T. A. and that cannot contribute to high debate, if you give mis-statements. Naturally, of course, we inherited the dam from the Department of Bantu Administration and Development. There was no charge. It could not be given to you people to carry on but if you went there one day and saw the exceptionally high standard of work that is being done you would be surprised, particu larly where the Transkei Government is concemed where an engineering scheme is required in the levelling of the soil and in the handling of huge machines constructing drains; and all those people were trained from nothing. They are ordinary semiskilled labourers but they do exceptionally good work as though they had been trained at a university. Now I just want to mention that in passing, because

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MR. K.M. GUZANA: So you admit it is not yours? It was handed over to you? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Yes, that is what I said. If by any chance you took over you would take over this policy of separate development, otherwise you would be charged with perjury because you swore that you would uphold the constitution. MR. GUZANA: I would even remove the desk from your office if I moved into it, but thank God I will not go into that office. (Laughter)

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : No , you will not. You keep saying that these schemes are white sponsored, but the funny thing is that none of you people have even seen them. I do not know if it makes any difference who plants the crop whether a white man or a Bantu plants it. The important thing is who looks after it, but I will not question you on that point because you are so ignorant. These crops have passed the experimental stage and the idea is not to impose it upon the people. It is really to show the people what can be grown and then eventually to give it to the people so that those round about that area where tea is grown will become economic tea-growers. Then a machine can be installed there by the Xhosa Corporation on the understanding Development that it will have some raw material with which to continue. It takes at least three to four years for a tea plant to grow and you are asking us where is the tea machine. Would it not rust in three years if it had to lie idle, waiting for this tea? Now you go to Butterworth where the raw material is almost ripe and we are now in a position to exploit it. The Department has imported a machine from Germany. One member is complaining that he heard about this machine long ago , but how far is Gemany? You cannot only import a machine and leave the experts behind. The experts must come with it. It is only in the last two months that I have been able to get the right experts to run the machine. I will tell the members on the other side to take a flip to Butterworth because on Wednesday I am . meeting people from Cape Town and all those who volunteer to come with me can come and see that machine. So much then for these crops. Now it was said that we are idle. What have you given the people? · you ask. I would like you to disabuse yourselves of that word. What should we give the people? My hon . friend on the other side suggested I should use My XG car and cart manure to his land. Why can't he use his scotch-cart for the same purpose? If the people want more they must work for it. They must contribute something. With our funds available we can only do a limited amount. We could do much more if we had the funds. You want to sit there and open your hands, and you want us to cart manure to your lands. You have no suggestion to make, but then you do not even repair your fences. The Department has to pay for rangers. Why can't you

make a little saving there and come to us and say: We have so much can't you help us? In conclusion I must tell you that we have great odds from your side, Mr. Leader of the Opposition. Some of the members on the opposite side are so hollow in what they should report to the people. I can mention specific names of the people, if you want me to, who tell their people not to accept rehabilitation, telling them how to evade rehabilitation. Unfortunately or fortunately, when one of those members was apprehended one of the location residents I hurried to my department and said: Please fence because this man has been arrested. I can give you the name if you want it. In fact I have even got a tape recorder in my office so that I can tell the people to say what they want because the tape recorder will never lie. Those are some, but only a few of the obstacles we have to contend with. The delegations they bring to the department are those in opposition to our policy, so I am inclined to give your people a new name · the Party of Obstruction - because you are nothing else. You have never made any representations to the department even for these relief works. You have never tried to implement the Act that was passed here last year 3 and all you come here for all you advise the people i is that they should not accept rehabilitation. I must warn you because a time will come when the department, as a respectable department, will have to take steps because it has got that right. (Interjections) The only reason why we are not implementing it is because we have so much work to do already. ·

I will deal with it more fully in my policy statement. You say the meat scheme is another project which we inherited, but who sponsored it? And even if it was sponsored by the Government of the Republic, who is handling it now? And who should get the credit? (Interjections) The dam was being built by the Department of Water Affairs but it was handed over to us through the Department of Bantu Administration and Development · and with what wonderful results!

MR. G.S. DANA: Mr. Chaimman and hon. members, my friend the hon. the Chief Minister of the Transkei last year went down to Grahamstown and stood on a platform at Rhodes University and proclaimed to the world as follows: (This is an official report and I am just going to read briefly from the Chief Minister's speech. ) "Matanzima: Integration will Destroy Identity. The Chief Minister of the Transkei, Mr. Kaiser Matanzima, told students of Rhodes University in Grahamstown recently that it was his contention that representation of the Bantu in a predominantly white parliament was doomed to failure , ' as such representation is not the expression of the autonomy of my people or of the self-determination of the country which is ours, the Transkei , or for that matter any other Bantu homeland in South Africa' . Speaking to the University Society on 'Why I am in favour of apartheid ' , Mr. Matanzima said the integrated nature of such a system of representation nullified the opportunity of the black man to propagate the specific economic and cultural demands of his people. " Mr. Chairman, I think all those who are capable of following have grasped the gist of the Chief Minister's speech. I am going to show historically in the course of my speech that the views expressed by the hon. the Chief Minister in his speech at Rhodes University are not the views of some of the great statesmen of this country, and I will go further and say that the views expressed by the hon. the Chief Minister were not even his own views for I am made to understand that the hon. the Chief Minister was for many years a supporter of the policy ofthe All-Africa Convention and that some of his former political associates are now at Robben Island serving life sentences. The hon. the Chief Minister in his speech said that he is in favour of the policy of separate development. Since when? I sincerely hope that when the hon. the Chief Minister replies to this debate he will tell us when he became a

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supporter of separate development. About the year 1909, a delegation of African and Coloured leaders representing the political opinion of the non-European people of this country, went to England. That delegation was accompanied by Advocate Schreiner who then was a member of the Cape Parliament. The delegation went to England to request the Imperial Government to rectify the position relevant to the colour bar in this country. As you are all aware, the delegation was not successful in its aim. It was stated at the time, however, that the British Government was hoping that the Cape Native franchise system would be extended in course of time to the other provinces of the Union . That is the first political event I wish to mention. Now, Mr. Chairman , we come to another event in the political history of the African people, and that is the non-European conference of 1927 which was organised by Dr. Abduraman and Professor Jabavu. That was a very important conference because it was organised by two of the most important nonEuropean leaders in South Africa. I think I will be doing justice to myself and the members of the Assembly if I give briefly what some authority has written about that conference. For the benefit of my friend from Pondoland, the hon. the Minister of Agriculture, who will be afraid to see a big book like this because he will think it is a text book on the philosophy of Communism, I will assure him that it is not. The title of this book is " Reaction to Conquest" and it is written by a European lady ofhigh academic attainments , a Doctor of Philosophy. It was a book which had a foreword by General Smuts. It is published by the Oxford University Press. Mr. Chairman, I am not standing here to waste your time. I am just going to quote what an authority said about this 1927 non-European conference. I have already said that this conference was organised by two of the foremost leaders of the non-Europeans in South Africa, and I hope that my hon. friends, the Cabinet Ministers , will pay close attention to what I am going to read: "In 1927 Dr. Abduraman and Professor Jabavu , leaders of the Coloured and Bantu communities respectively, organised a non-European conference attended by 114 representatives of various Coloured , Indian and other organisations with the object of bringing about closer co-operation between non-European organisations. Similar conferences were held in 1930, 1931 and 1934, at which existing economic , political and social conditions have been discussed and resolutions passed. 38 organisations have been represented. The conference aims at co-operation. The first resolution to be passed was that the interests of South Africa as a whole can best be served by closer co-operation between the nonEuropean sections of South Africa and closer co-operation between the Europeans and nonEuropeans , but the Native Land Act of 1913, the Mines and Works Amendment Act of 1926, white labour policy, taxation system, starvation of Native education, the pass laws and the recent and proposed changes in parliamentary representation of non-Europeans have been condemned in no small measure . " Mr. Chairman , in 1931 the conference resolved that in view of the fact that General Hertzog had definitely expressed his opinion on the nonEuropean of South Africa and as he had urged the Imperial Government to shape its future policy so as to harmonize with that of the Union Government and as the latter policy was based on the principle of no equality in Church and State between black and white, "this conference considers that the time

has arrived to send a deputation to England to place before the British people a full statement of its views on the people's rights. " Professor Jabavu was sent overseas as representative from the conference and addressed a number of meetings in England. Mr. Chairman, let me pass on to another event in the political history of the African peoplethe conference of the All Africa Convention held at Bloemfontein in December, 1937. That conference was a conference of conferences. It was the biggest political gathering of Africans in the political history of South Africa. There were observers from Basutoland , Bechuanaland and Swaziland, and Professor Jabavu was chairman . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: at that conference too.

was present

MR. DANA: That conference sat under the shadow of Hertzog's Native Bill which aimed at the removal, among other things, of the Natives from the common voters' roll and wanted to establish separate Native representation in the Union Parliament. The conference deliberated for about two or three days and it rejected Hertzog's Native Bill. So much now for African opinion. Let me come to some of the statesmen of this country. You will remember I said at the beginning of my speech that the hon. the Chief Minister, in his views, was not expressing the views of some of the statesmen of this Country . The Chief Minister is a man with high academic attainments . He knows the political history of this country . He knows the brilliant fight put up by the Cape delegation in defence of the Cape Native franchise at the South African Convention in 1908. Some of the members of that delegation were Mr. Merriman , who at that time was the Prime Minister of the Cape Colony and was the senior Prime Minister in the National Convention of South Africa. Another member of that delegation was Starr Jameson. Mr. Chairman, let me come to the greatest statesman of this country General Smuts . General Smuts , speaking in the Town Hall , Cape Town , in 1941, said in the course of his speech that segregation had fallen on evil days and it could not be carried out. Mr. Chairman , a celebrated parliamentarian of South Africa has declared that all South African politics , every issue debated and discussed in the Republican House of Assembly, affects the non-European peoples of this country . MR . P.S. SIGCAU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members of the House, I rise up to speak on the motion that there is no confidence in the Transkei Government . I say there is confidence in the Government because we have seen their achievements . You will recall that this Government took over from another Govemment at a difficult time. Anyone who is trying to do some work knows it is not an easy task to try and improve on what has been done by another person, but in that respect your Government experienced no difficulty. It has succeeded and it is still going forward today. From listening to the debates in the Assembly here it now appears that we have gone back to the days of the election campaign where one had to be for multi- racialism or for separate development. I am at a loss to understand why, because as it is now we are divided and I conclude that my friends across the floor have failed to do what they say they have been sent to do by the electorate because they cannot tell the people that they want multi-racialism . Let us come now to examine the way in which we, as

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MR. NOGCANTSI : If I did say that at any stage, I do not know when I should have withdrawn it.

representatives of the people, should debate. There is nothing the people attach more importance to than their country, that is why the people were jubilant when the Republican Parliament told them they can now have their own land. They had been living in a country in which they had no rights . Since zoning we understand they are visiting attorneys ' offices to borrow money in order to buy land. (Interjections) That proves you are merely quibbling when you say you are standing for multi-racialism. Now let us turn to the question of employment which the Government has solved successfully. We commend the Government for its improvement of the employment position in the Transkei. These things make the people grateful to the Government and they realise that the Government is doing something for them. (Interjections ) My hon. friends across the floor have mentioned the teachers. There were complaints about our teachers even before these regulations were made and now when circulars are sent out for their improvement there are still complaints . All along elderly people of my age have been reluctant to attend these concerts at night lest they encounter drunkenness. That kind of conduct actually infected the younger people. As it is some of the youngsters sent to secondary schools are drunkards of the first degree. Why should the teachers not be put right? To come to Proclamation 400 , I do not know what the movements of my friends are across the floor because we are moving freely and do not come up against this proclamation. (Interjections )

THE CHAIRMAN : I am asking you a simple question. Do you want to withdraw those remarks or not? MR NOGCANTSI: I am prepared to withdraw if I did ever say it. THE CHAIRMAN : I tell you, you said it. Do you want to withdraw it or not? MR. NOGCANTSI : I say I am prepared to withdraw if I said it. THE CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of order..... THE CHAIRMAN : Excuse me, hon. member, just repeat your remarks. MR. NOGCANTSI : I said if I ever said it I am prepared to withdraw. THE CHAIRMAN : I tell you you said it.

2 MR. NOGCANTSI: I say I am prepared to withdraw.... THE CHAIRMAN : That is all. MR. NOGCANTSI: ……..If I did say it.

THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. THE CHAIRMAN : No, do not add those words. MR. SIGCAU : Last year there was a complaint about the roads and this year they are silent on that because they see the roads are being repaired with machines.

MR. GUZANA: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, may we appeal to the record? Let us know what is what.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of order, this was an interjection .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , you said yesterday that you had your ears open and were able to catch whatever was said by way of insults from this House. I want to draw your attention to the obscene remarks which come from the hon. member for Qaukeni , Mr. Nogcantsi, trying to show this House that the hon. speaker now occupying the floor is a drunkard. I think he should withdraw his remarks about the amount of liquor that the hon. member consumes .

MR.

K.M.

GUZANA:

Mr. Chairman

and hon.

members , if I remember what was said by the hon . Mr. Nogcantsi , it was to this effect: What type of liquor do you drink? If the hon. member does not drink he can very well say: I do not drink any type of liquor. There is no implication that he drinks because he is asked what he drinks . Even in social gatherings a person is asked: What will you have? · and he may just say : No , thank you , I won't have anything. There is therefore no reflection at all and it is not any remark that should be withdrawn. THE CHAIRMAN : I will ask the hon. member to withdraw what he said because I heard him say: You are a drunkard yourself. I ask him to withdraw that. MR. N.C. NOGCANTSI: Mr. Chairman , what should I withdraw because it was only a question which was never answered. In fact that is my friend and I just wanted to know what type of liquor he is interested in. THE CHAIRMAN : Are you withdrawing or not?

I THE CHAIRMAN : Please sit down. I am asking the hon. member: Do you withdraw? MR. NOGCANTSI : I have done it already . What do you want now, Mr. Chairman? THE CHAIRMAN : Carry on. MR. SIGCAU : Mr. Chairman, as a matter of fact I may say in answer to the interjection that I never take any type of liquor. Some members , when they have failed to render the services they should, get into the habit of thoughtlessly accusing other people. They attribute false statements to them. We have been told that as a Government party we are using a borrowed policy. I refer to self-development. The Opposition themselves , however, have borrowed the policy of the liberals as something that exists only in their brains and which is not tangible , because we have never seen any government based on their policy. Just because they have a hatred for the chiefs they do not know what they can do, so they move from one side to the other in the hope that they will get a following among the people. Let them come into the midst of this responsible and living Government and they should live the same lives as they are living, and where it becomes necessary for them to give advice they should do so. MR. B.S. RAJUILI : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, we should like to know whether the hon .

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member is discussing the motion of separate development, because he is interested in something quite different self-development. If I understand him well, self-development can exist · it does not matter in what state so I want to know whether he is discussing self-development or separate development. 包 Do

MR. SIGCAU: Separate development. He need havestandpoint no doubts now. He knows my standpoint. It is the of all the Gcalekas . They are trying to mislead my fellowmen. I support the amendment that we have confidence in the Government.

The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION . The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate on the motion of no confidence was resumed .

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MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members, I stand up to support the motion of no confidence which has been moved. Before I go further I will speak under the heading mentioned by the hon. Mr. Sineke. He said that we Opposition members hold meetings together with the Goverment members. There is no truth in that because there has been no meeting of that nature except one called by the hon. Chief Dilizintaba and that meeting had nothing to do with parliamentary matters . The chief explained clearly to us that he had called us to listen to what the people were going to send us to Parliament for. We should not tell the people what we did in Parliament. In fact we listened to what the people were telling us and we put it down in writing and that was all. I was merely trying to show that he was wrong because the two parties never met to discuss matters that had taken place in Parliament. The policy of separate development under which we are ruled does not please us. In fact it becomes gloomier and gloomier. Separate development is a discrimination or colour bar. It is oppression and slavery in a disguised way. Although it is called separate development, it should be called separate under-development. This situation has been planned for many years. It has been termed different things but it is only trying to get the black people away from the Europeans. When I speak about the situation which obtains today and the way the national roads are being worked I can say they are made in such a way that they are kept away from the homes of the people. That means that people who are in the rural areas will never see a white man for at least twenty years. Even then they will only see a white man when they go to work on contract. It means thatthe women are kept away altogether from seeing white people. It is a bad thing to keep them away from civilized people because if they themselves want to be civilized they should see civilized people. We will have children who will not see a white man until such time as they go to Johannesburg. When white people come from America perhaps and wish to go and see the people in the rural areas the children will be amazed. It is wrong because they will be like animals. Anywhere in the world, if people are away from civilisation those people are surely going to deteriorate. God created this world and he created countries such as Holland, France , Italy and others, and in all those places he put his children. We might also say he put us here in Africa as his children and there were those who were overseas. That is how God arranged things. Let us

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say in simple words that Africa is a small hut and Europe is a great hut. The children of the great hut who are overseas came to assist the children of the small hut. For those children who have come to assist the small hut there comes a time when they say they must also take part in this country which is small. Now the children of the small hut say: How is it that we people who own this country have no rights here? If there is an argument between the children of the two huts, the children of the small hut cannot be deprived of their rights by the children of the great hut. There is nobody anywhere who can take away their rights and there is nothing that can be said about those rights, but only the truth. It is simply a matter of some children belonging to one hut and some to the other. Anybody can say that they belong to this particular hut. In that way nobody can take the rights of the small hut and give them to the great hut. Even if you think that he has taken the rights, his conscience will tell him he is doing wrong. Who is the judge? God is the judge. Who is the jury? You and I because we are always going to speak the truth as it stands. We are going to say what has happened and what is known. The children of the great hut have done some work in the small hut and the children of the small hut also respect the children of the great hut because they know they have done something for them and they expect to stay with them. Even if it was taken away from us, how was it taken away from us? The fact remains that these are the children of the small hut. I am saying this to you so that you can tell me whether the rights of the small hut are taken to the great hut. I do not blame the Europeans for coming to this country. (Interjections) I am trying to make things simple for you so that you will understand. I am explaining to you that the rights of the children of the small hut cannot be taken to the great hut. You can put it any way you like. If you like you can say the rights of the great hut cannot be taken by the children of the small hut. What I am trying to say is that these people have come to improve things. This is their home and God is their Father. I am trying to give you an example which will be clear to you . As I have already said, the rights of the small hut cannot go to the great hut. If they do, they will come back. All these things should be discussed and we shall agree. I do not know where I shall be. Let it be clear to you that what I say to you is true. You can put these huts any way you like but the facts remain. There is no argument about this matter. Do not have violence. We do not want any bullets to shoot at each other. There is only one thing to be said and that is the facts as they stand. I told you that this is a plan which took place many years ago. You will remember that the African countries, right down to South Africa, which have received freedom already number about 50, including South Africa. Amongst all those countries I do not remember that there is one that has made a sub-division. It is true that they have their troubles, but even though things stand like that it does not mean it is necessary. Our country is better than all the other countries because the Europeans arrived first in this country (Interjections) and they taught us to be what we are today. I told you that we are better and you cannot deny that fact. There is another matter upon which we do not agree. I do not understand why our leaders accept it. We call ourselves "Africans" and your side say we are Bantu. The name African suits people who are aborigines of Africa. Why did you sell our name? Whenever we

attend meetings this question is put to us. It was put to the hon. the Chief Minister at Sulenkama where he was asked why he had agreed that this name should be given to other people. His answer was simply that nothing is contained inthat name . Who would like the name of his country to be taken away from him? In another place the same question was put. These are the important matters upon which we are now talking. We say that separate development is oppression and is slavery because it gives us a small country, whereas our numbers are large. There are things that are being said about Italians overseas going to work in France and having no rights in France because they go back to their own country. Our argument is that the Republic is ours . Our children who are in Johannesburg should have rights when they are there, just as a white man who is here must have his rights. (Interjections) If they have no rights they should have them . GOVERNMENT them.

MEMBERS:

They

won't get

MR. JAFTA: You have blocked them. In regard to Proclamation 400 , this is another block which is a problem to us because this proclamation has been made so that when we want to hold meetings we should have difficulties . GOVERNMENT MEMBER : Do you want people murdered? MR. JAFTA: That people die as a result of being murdered is an old established thing, long before self-government. The proclamation was made as a result of troubles in Pondoland . The hon. Minister of Bantu Administration and Development, Mr. Botha, said clearly that in the Transkei there was peace. What was he expected to say when there is peace in this country? GOVERNMENT

MEMBER:

What

Mr.

Doubt?

MR. JAFTA: Remember this O all over the world, in America, France, India and other countries there are murderers. We read about them every day in the papers. This proclamation is only being retained for us so as to make our meetings difficult. I say we have no confidence in the Government. CHIEF S. MOSHESH : Mr. Chairman and honmembers, I stand here to support the policy of separate development. Further, I am a strong supporter of the Government in that respect. The Opposition has said much in this regard and we all have heard the points raised in the House. First the hon. the Leader of the Opposition referred to the dam at Qamata. In his address he said that the dam was not the outcome of the activities of this Govemment but of the Republican Govemment, but he did not say that the dam was not useful to the Transkei people in the area where it is situated. I therefore understood from him that he understood thoroughly that the Republican Govemment worked hand in hand and in harmony with the Transkei an Government. As a representative of the voters of his area I thought he would say that the Transkei people did not want anything to do with the dam. May I ask him to go back to the people he represents and ask them whether they should say that the dam should now be constructed by this Govemment and not by the Republican Government? In regard to education the

Department of Education in the Transkei has been referred to as a rotten department and what I think has worried the members is that reference has been made to the character of women teachers who become pregnant. Our members should stand firm to attack that sort of thing even as we are standing firm on separate development because it is an accomplished fact. We of the Govemment party are certain that our Govemment is one which we can fully support in every respect. If I remember correctly, last year it was said in this House that a matter as important as education should not be mixed up with political matters. I think it was a great error that that matter was not brought to this House because what we are doing is merely growing old on emptiness. Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to waste your time and the time of this side of the House. The other side is doing nothing to help the country. I stand here as one of the chiefs who comes from that area which is inhabited by Basutos. (Interjections) I am a Basuto and when I stand to speak I do not want anyone to make inferences. Yesterday an opinion was expressed to the effect that the hon. the Chief Minister should ask for independence and follow the example of those countries where freedom has been given. Reference was made to Basutoland, Bechuanaland and Swaziland which areas are all to get independence this year or in the near future. Had the speaker been near me I would have taken his hand because I think he spoke very well. All these countries have followed exactly the same step as we are taking towards independence and self-govemment, and full independence is the last step along this path. In Basutoland they also have elections as we have had elections in this country. They also have their Ministers ofthe departments, as we have ours. They also have the Opposition in Parliament. Reference has been made to the policy of separate development. When we refer to this policy we are talking about a matter in which there was agreement in this Assembly · a matter that

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was raised by Dr. Verwoerd as he stood by the Chaiman's desk. I will not refer to the question that is asked as to whether Basutoland has separate development because the Opposition there is not 722 similar to what is taking place in the Transkei. To show that the Republican Government has the interests of the people at heart, when Basutoland was in the throes of famine the Republican Govemment came to their aid and sent food for the people. To pass on, Mr. Chaimman , reference was made to the establishment of an upper house for chiefs and a lower house for elected members. It is a wonder that such a request should come from the Opposition side because they maintain that they do not want the chiefs because they are stupid and do nothing. I would request the Opposition to stop saying that because the Govemment is well aware of what is going on and they will allow them to carry on until they feel it is time to stop them. The Govemment knows what chieftainship in the Transkei means. TT (Interjections) When I hear the Opposition making a noise I feel encouraged because that tells me that normally when you die you kick. (Laughter) Members of the Opposition , please attend. I hope you have got this very well into your minds, that the Govemment will tell you that an upper house will be created by them when they feel the time is ripe. Those who ask when that will come about are the people who are tuming their backs to what is being done in this House. With reference to Proclamation 400 I will be very happy to know that the Opposition is aware that that proclamation is in agreement with the Govem-

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ment policy because it brings the people closer to their chiefs. As you assert that we are fools and we know nothing, you can finally, by this law, know that we are your chiefs and you will become closer to us. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Give a chance to the interpreter.

CHIEF MOSHESH: I am happy that you should know that I come from Emboland where I alone am the Basuto chief over the Basuto people. On that account nothing will make me move out of this Parliament, even when it is decided that chiefs should be elected. I would further ask you not to throw insults at chiefs because they do get upset when you do so .

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MR. J.B. NKOSIYANE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, it is fitting that we should be in this House when there are people who do not know where they are going to. You speak about chiefs. This is not the place for paramount chiefs and chiefs. This is the place for people who have been elected by the people. Separate development means that a black man should remain with all his difficulties on his side, and the white man should have bread and butter on the other side. Chiefs were put there because they knew that the people did not want this and they would quarrel with their chiefs. The chiefs should have sent the people to come here and now we are using insulting words against them because they did not follow custom. If the chief remained at home and sent a message, and the messenger was afraid of the chief he would not tum aside. If the chief is the first person to do wrong, what will his counsellors say? They will take the policy of the Dutch people which is not the custom of the Bantu people. I am speaking under the no-confidence motion in which we say we have no confidence in the puppets on the other side. I thought I would have done it by saying " Bantu males " on that side and "honourable members" on this side, because that is separate development. A lot of words have been spoken. What I want to explain is what we should do, and I have long been telling people on the opposite side and they do not seem to do what we want them to do. We do not want the policy of separate development because it is the policy of the Government which is ruling us. Separate development was denied by Jesus Christ when he came near the spring and he asked for water and the woman said: We have no dealings with Jews. In his reply he said: There is no Jew or Greek . Everbody is equal in my sight. All the countries, including South Africa met at the United Nations and this is what they decided that all human beings are bom free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : You are quoting from " New Age" .

ve MR. NKOSIYANE: It seems to me the hon. Minister knows nothing about separate development. Separate development is not fittingfor a Bantu . Where were these chiefs and where were you when the Prime Minister met with his own people and examined the position in order to see in what way we should be governed? This is a Bunga which is just like the old Bunga which we had before. These were started

by Cecil Rhodes in 1894 because he had difficulty with the Africans. It was a way in which the African could be watched because he is slippery like so ap and they were trying to find means to get him as he is today. We are here today in a trap, as this building is also a trap. This council is worse than all the other councils. In the previous council and the T.T.A. we did our work knowing that the white man was watching us. Today we are told the white man is not here, although he is there on the other side. We are told we are governing ourselves knowing that all the laws being made here are for separate development. In order that you may understand well , you must watch this person who plays a guitar in the street. He has got wires to which dolls are attached and he makes the dolls dance by putting his foot on the wire and the dolls appear to be twisting or dancing. I am saying this in connection with Mr. Ndamse's position. You were happy when you were going to employ him but the father refused and now you are disappointed. I understand when you say you have already employed Mr. Ndamse and that he will dance to your music. We shall watch that. On the other side you are all after money . You are like the leader goats I saw in Cape Town which are followed by other goats to the slaughter. When they get to a certain place the leader goat leaps over a wall leaving the other goats to go to the slaughter. What the people want is that the laws should be made by us according to our custom. I am not referring to the custom of cutting a finger as I have, which has long been forgotten. Our people are starving. Separete development has put them in cold storage. They are gnashing their teeth. Separate development is doing everything for the whites only . That is why white men from Kenya or anywhere else come here. He comes here as a gentleman, looking smart just with an identity card in his pocket, yet you, an African, have to carry a very big book which could tear your pockets . We have been sent here by the people. You must get away from here so as to allow us to do what should be done. You go to Cape Town as leaders of the Transkei and when you get to Cape Town you say the police there do not work because they do not arrest the people. When you get to Cape Town and you find people hiding in caves, you call them out and tell them to come into the open and you will help them. When they come out you get the police to arrest them. You look just like civil servants in this area. A civil servant cannot do anything except what pleases the Government. This is the way in which they lived in Italy during the time of Fascism . Let us leave alone Nazi-ism and Communism and let us try and follow something which has God in it. When God created people he never picked out any particular people as separate development does. To come back to Cape Town, I did not complete my story . You called the people in the morning and in the afternoon the people were being arrested . There was a funny thing introduced in Cape Town that no Africans should work there, but only Coloureds. Europeans say the Coloureds are drunkards and they smoke dagga and they steal . They say they do not want them. There are forms which have been printed and when an employer wants to hire a person he gets that form from the office. Africans are never employed and if a person has been employed he is discharged and a Coloured employed in his stead, because you recommend separate development. Because of that they are dismissing Africans from employment. When Cape Town was built was it not with the participation of our fathers and our grandfathers? Now you say that

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people? I ask you to think deeply and to realise you are only servants. You are spoiling the opportunities of others . I do not know from whom the hon. the Minisster of Education got this custom of saying girls should be examined. It is not Xhosa custom. According to Xhosa custom, if girls are pregnant let them teach. It has never been said that girls should be examined. It should be done as it was in your time. Who taught you this · the new Secretary?

THE CHAIRMAN : I think you should withdraw that.

MR. NKOSIYANE : I am asking a question , Mr. Chairman . THE CHAIRMAN : You must not mention the Secretaries . I cannot allow that. MR. NKOSIYANE : I withdraw, Mr. Chairman. Here is another matter. In regard to rehabilitation you say 'the people must accept this and there are a lot of people who have been arrested because they refuse to accept it. Do not quarrel with people who say they do not like rehabilitation , but quarrel with the people who say you are the Government of liars. In 1964 we decided in this House that the influx control regulations should be relaxed and we all ™ agreed. After we had agreed here you never referred the matter to Pretoria. You do not care for the people who have been kept at home and who suffer from starvation, because you are getting a lot of money. You are being told that the whites are not leaving the Transkei but you still believe that they will leave. You are told by the Prime Minister, when you have gone further than what you should have said, that you should keep quiet but you still persist. You say you have been oppressed for three hundred years , but you have been taught. Do you think the Africans are so dull they cannot be educated? Today we have Africans in the public service but sometimes we do not see them here because one passes his Junior Certificate and after passing he becomes a driver because he has his driver's licence. He is given R19.50 a month and he pays R2 for rent. Perhaps he spends R6 on food and if he buys a shirt and trousers it costs him R12. How can he get enough money, because he has got to dress neatly if he is a public servant. An uneducated person who goes to Cape Town gets R10 a month minimum . You say we have freedom in the Transkei and self-govemment. Why don't you make the laws we want, because no other person knows what we want? MR . M.H. CANCA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support the amendment to the motion that we have confidence in the Govemment. Much has already been said in the Assembly. There have been repetitions and I would not like to dwell much on what has been said . I will be brief and touch on a point here and there . On the whole, as I see it, criticism is directed against the policy of separate development, which is the Goverment's policy. This policy which is today being attacked so severely by the Opposition is a policy that was brought by the paramount chiefs and chiefs in the Opposition. They brought the policy because they realised that by it their followers would be able to live. Not long after, some of them changed their minds, but only after the people had decided to follow what had been told them be-

cause it was the truth. Before I speak at great length on this point, let me say that the Opposition recently appointed a new leader. We commend the party for that and we congratulate the hon. member who has been so appointed. I pass on but I will say that after he had been appointed certain statements appeared in the Press about him. One of those statements gave his views that since the landing of the white man at the Cape the customs and traditions of the African became obsolete. The surprising thing is that when he was appointed it was done at a tribal court, something which he does not believe to be in vogue. The Press was sincere in commending him. It mentioned that he had grown up among white people, English, German and perhaps Afrikaans , showing in other words that perhaps he did not actually come into contact with the Boers. Nevertheless the Press believed that he was being placed in a high position.

10

I am certain I am right in saying that the very fact that he grew up among English and German children is just what actually made the people dismayed about him . They have done harm to him in that way. We have been wondering all along why this hon. gentleman, the new leader, has been speaking so much about this policy of multi- racialism. We now know why he is ready to allow his own people to die out instead of severing his association with the white people. We have been wondering why he has now changed from his fomer policy of separate development to multi-racialism. We have now ascertained that the hon. the Paramount Chief, in preparing his manifesto, actually invited the new leader to assist him. It was then that his policy came to rest on multi-racialism. I am sorry that he has changed from what he had agreed to He has been led into a policy which rejects his own people but I have ascertained that there were others in the party who converted the hon. Paramount Chief, thereby placing him in a difficult position. When he realised that he was in that position and that there was no progress in that, he decided to shift the burden to the rightful owner. I congratulate him on doing away with something which has proved a failure. We have confidence in the Government in that it has opposed the policy of multi-racialism and adheres to separate development. It is a strange thing that the Opposition's policy is not acceptable even to the people he grew up with. They will not hear a thing about it. We do not know where the policy will end up if they continue with it I mean that stupid lot across the floor. They will not • • listen and they will continue to be stupid THE CHAIRMAN : I think you had better withdraw that. MR. CANCA: What is the opposite of stupid? THE CHAIRMAN : You must withdraw.

MR. CANCA: This side is wise, the other side is stupid. THE CHAIRMAN : marks, hon. member.

Please withdraw those re-

MR . CANCA: Well, that side is unintelligent. THE CHAIRMAN: Have you withdrawn? MR. CANCA: I withdraw, Mr. Chairman. During the last election in the Republic a certain gentleman belonging to the Progressive Party had to face

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S

the Coloureds only should work there. Here in the post office in Umtata it is said that Africans should not be served. Who built that office? Was it not our

questions which he was unable to answer. I refer to the hon. Mr. Steytler, the Chairman of the Party. He was asked whether his policy meant multi-racialism in schools, sports, hospitals and whether, in accepting that policy, he would advocate that white and black children should use the same swimming baths ; whether he accepted multi-racialism to mean that white and black youths would go out for walks toge ther. He was tongue-tied, and then he was told that his policy was non-existent. What was the result of all this? He lost his deposit. They are merely clinging now to Mrs. Suzman . Even she did not succeed because of her policy, but merely allowed to go to Parliament because of her eloquence. Her policy is not acceptable. If these people are sensible they will sound the views of the white population of the Republic and they should not boost themselves in places where they are not accepted. I think they are jubilant just because Mr. Hughes succeeded in the Transkei , because they have not got the brains to think properly and they do not realise that Mr. Hughes is not going to do anything for them. The Transkei whites are a mere drop in the ocean and cannot change the views of the whites in the rest of the Republic. (Interjections)

disturbed to a great extent by that statement and some of them packed their belongings and went to other places because of what he said. How many years is it since Dr. Verwoerd made that statement? It is true that there were certain utterances to the

THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR. CANCA: I want to tell the hon. members across the floor that they should not try and get water out of stones because they will get nothing. What surprised me was the statement that they want this self-government in the Transkei to revert to provincial status. What did the hon. member mean when he said that? What does he mean when he says that after we have got to the position where we are now the Legislative

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chaiman and hon. members, I have the pleasure to announce that the debate on the no-confidence motion will come to an

Assembly - we should go back to the Bunga from which we have come. Possibly they have been bribed to oppose this policy of separate development. We can come to no other conclusion . To come to the matter of zoning, the hon. Mr. Guzana asked whether a time limit had been fixed for the Europeans to leave completely as a result of this zoning. I do not know, but perhaps he has been asked by his friends to come and ascertain on their behalf when they will be leaving so that he can go back and report to them. (Laughter) I do not think we should really hurry over this matter. The time when they will leave is known to the Govemment but for the present you may be comfortable because you can play toys with the whites. We are not in a great hurry for the whites to leave because we have no quarrels with them, but what we would have them know is that the land has now been given to the citizens of the Transkei. They have their own homelands that their Govemment has prepared for them and the Republic is not refusing to settle the Transkei whites. The Opposition is under a misapprehension. They say South Africa belongs to them in its entirety. They seem to fail to understand that the allocation of these different homelands is to

MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, you will remember that this House decided last week on Thursday that Friday last week would be the closing day for motions , but that this House would consider extraordinary circumstances which may persuade it to allow motions to be put in on a date later than Friday last week. In consequence, Sir, some extraordinary circumstances persuaded this House to allow motions to be accepted on Monday of this week. It is common knowledge to you and to this House that certain members of the Oppo-

effect that it might take a hundred years, but today it has happened. (Interjections) I want to say you should stop worrying about this question. Leave everything to the Government.

The debate was adjoumed. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday, 29th April, 1966. FRIDAY, 29TH APRIL, 1966. The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m. Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENT BY CHIEF MINISTER

E1

their advantage because it will stop disturbances between the different races. Where whites and blacks come together there is a tendency for the one race to regard itself as superior to the other race and because the black objects he runs amok. The only way in which you can arbitrate in a situation like that is to allow each race to govern themselves. The Opposition says it is quite obvious that the whites will leave these parts. You will recall that in 1957 Dr. Verwoerd was here . He was then the Minister of Native Affairs. He said then that the Transkei would one day be given to the Bantu. The whites were

end very early this aftemoon and that there will therefore be three speakers. The first speaker on the Opposition benches, then on the Government side, and then the reply by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

sition were, because of circumstances beyond their own control , unable to be here at the beginning of this session . They have drifted back to this House and the last of them came in yesterday and shared in the sitting of this House. You will realise that up to then these members could not have brought their motions before this House and now, so soon as they have all come back, I am making this appeal to the House to grant them that indulgence of putting in their motions. I am sure when the House reserved to itself the right to consider extraordinary circumstances it was not doing so without purpose, and on behalf of these members, Sir, I make that appeal to the House through you. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I do not intend to waste the time of the House with this application, as it entirely depends on you, Sir , but I wish to sound you that the Govemment party is opposed to this application. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition has submitted that certain extraordinary circumstances prevented certain hon. members from submitting their motions. He has not specifically stated what these extraordinary circumstances are . The presumption , however, is that he refers to members of his party who were

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away attending a case in Grahamstown. I see him nodding, Mr. Chairman. If that is the case I submit that those men put themselves in that position and therefore cannot put the blame on anybody . Therefore there is nothing extraordinary as far as that is concerned. It would be tantamount to saying that a man who was drunk on the day he was supposed to submit his motion was not responsible for that condition because when he drank he did not intend to be drunk. With those few words I just want to sound you that this side of the House is opposed to the motion.

distinguished personality in the visitors' bay this Mr. Franz Josef Strauss, former Minister morning of Defence in the West German Republic, is honouring our Assembly with his presence . In the name of all our members I wish to extend a hearty welcome to our distinguished visitor. We hope Mr. Strauss , who is still a member of the West German Parliament, will en joy his short visit and take back happy memories & as well as our assurances of friendship and good will towards his country.

2 NO-CONFIDENCE MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, if attending a criminal case is not an extraordinary circumstance then I do not know what can be an extraordinary situation. THE CHIEF MI NISTER: Illness or sickness. MR. GUZANA: Illness and sickness are part of human life and we expect them daily. If the situation of these men is described as ordinary, then I think it is no compliment to the members of this House; and the example of drunkenness is altogether extraneous and irrelevant. Has an individual who is living in the Transkei to disregard a sub-poena requiring him to attend before the Supreme Court? Has an accused person in the Transkei to disregard a summons requiring him to appear before the Supreme Court of the land? If we were to disregard these imperative summonses of the law then we would be setting a bad example to the people of the Transkei. And, Sir, this is an appeal to you. It is not a matter to be argued for or against. It is a matter on which you can use your discretion to enrich the debates of the House. Let it not be suggested that you had a hand in stifling the submission of motions to the House of which you are an impartial Chairman . I for one will never think so and I believe you will act in a manner which will continue to make me believe you an impartial Chairman. THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. Paramount chiefs and hon. members, the House will understand that the motions have been closed. There is a request from the hon. the Leader of theOpposition , Mr. Guzana, which is opposed by the hon. the Chief Minister, the Leader of the Government Party, and that puts me in a difficulty. I shall therefore put it before the House, The Leader of the Opposition should therefore put this as a motion because his request is opposed by the hon. the Chief Minister. If it were not oppos ed I can see no objection to it. MR. GU ZANA: Mr. Chairman, you will see, Sir, that we have placed ourselves in your hands entirely and that we do not want to decide this matter. We ask you to decide it. THE CHAIRMAN: I am afraid I must follow the regulations of the House. I am asking that you make special motion of this. You are at liberty to do so.

MR. GUZANA: I see an indication, Sir, that you would have allowed these motions to be put in because you have asked me to put in a motion at this late hour. I shall do so at the appropriate time.

The debate was resumed, MR. N.C. NOGCANTSI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members of the House, I think this motion has been exhausted. There have been many members, particu larly sensible members on this side, trying to floga dead horse. There has been a lot of debate which I can easily translate as applying for admission to gaol .... THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You want partners! • • Because most of us on MR. NOGCANTSI: • this side are meant in the eyes of the governing party as applicants to boost up the gaol population.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: AS long as they don't employ Mr. Doubt they will be safe. MR. NOGCANTSI: You will find that in accor dance with separate development everybody who is here, or a member elected or nominated, must be regarded as a felon. I understand and I am sure to tell you that everybody in the Transkei is in a state of fear and insecurity. There is a state of insecurity and only those who are supporting the policy of separate development feel that there is an element of security. Whoever says the policy of separate development is practicable should be charged legally with mendacity. (Laughter) I wonder whether the hon. the Chief Minister will continue to canvass for the foreseeable general election as he has achieved what he wanted O that is , paramountcy. I understand there has been this question of Mr. Ndamse which has shown clearly that the governing party is useless in the eyes of the Republic . There are threats at present which are directed at me that I am applying for free board and lodging from the Minister of Justice. (Laughter)

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You put yourself there. Who said you must employ herbalists? MR. NOGCANTSI: If you look at me you will find that I am not emaciated as I should be because I knew beforehand that I was going to gaol. I was still tackling this Ndamse question. When the members of the goveming party were supposed to respond to this they rationalized as toddlers that will never grow from that stage. I have never known in the history of humanity a stage where an embryo will never develop into any other stage in metamorphosis. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That stage was shown when you employed a herbalist.

ANNOUNCEMENT BY CHAIRMAN THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , I wish to announce that we have a very

MR. NOGCANTSI: It is pathetic to find there is too much abysmal ignorance shown by the so- called Ministers because they have converted this supposed-

- 54 -

to-be T.L.A. into a faction fight. They cannot see that this ideological separate development is not for illiterate people. Shall I pose to them this question: Why do they allow the Republican Government to interfere in the domestic affairs of the Transkei?

1

THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please.

i

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You have just said it. That is your home.

count ries attacking this policy they are always told they should refrain from such because the policy of separate development is a domestic affair. Has the appointment of Mr. Ndamse not been a domestic

MR. NOGCANTSI: There is no development which has been initiated by the Republican Prime Minister because all the development that takes place is due to the indirect taxation of the African people, but always , whenever you look at the budget, you find that fact is always concealed. The dissatisfaction is traceable even amongst the blanketed

affair of the Transkei? When will they honour their "et tu quoque"?

people, particularly in connection with the allotment of kraal sites and land sites.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You got that one from Ahrenstein.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : What are land sites?

MR . NOGCANTSI: Referring to night concerts I can only say to the hon. the Minister of Education that that is indicative of sexual perversion. I must sound a warning and give advice to the aging man • •

provement of salaries in spite of the fact that we have reiterated the clamour from the riff-raff that

T

8

for the intellectual in the Transkei, and also for honest people. Their home in this country is in gaol.

MR.

NOGCANTSI:

Whenever

there

are other

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : We must sound a warning to you to leave herbalists alone. MR. NOGCANTSI: Here is the hon. the Minister of Justice suggesting to me the smelling-out practice.

MR. NOGCANTSI: You will find there is no im-

they are underpaid and ill-treated in that regard, and that will remain unsolved forever. There has been a recent threat by the hon. the Minister of Justice that chiefs on this side are likely to be in gaol before the general election.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes, which you

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : When was that? If you teach them to employ herbalists they will go to gaol .

A Practice which in fact

MR. NOGCANTSI : I know that will happen because that has happened to Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo.

did.

MR .

NOGCANTSI:

should not have been adopted by this Govemment in this advanced stage of civilisation . (Interj ections) My waming to the hon. the Minister of Education reads

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: gaoled?

thus: Every teacher is bound by professional ethics to be courteous to his fellow teachers as he is equally qualified as they are. In other words , teachers must maintain what is called an " esprit de corps " .

MR. NOGCANTSI : Some of the magistrates themselves have become party politicians.

Was he ever

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Quote! THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: How many leaves have you buried in Mount Frere? MR. NOGCANTSI: Now what has been happening, particularly after the session, is that the hon. the Chief Minister has been canvassing for re- election so that he should be re- elected next time , with the result that now he has adopted chameleon tactics . In big cities he will preach land rights or apply for land rights for the urbanites, and even before the election he uttered very wild statements that the land of the Transkei will stretch from the Fish River to Umtamvuna. This is very pathetic because it seems he is a Minister who is lacking in vision and who is buying cheap popularity at any cost. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Is that why you wanted to kill him?

MR. NOGCANTSI: There is a lot of misuse of

MR . NOGCANTSI : I will quote one if you want it. Even before I was arrested last time I was told bythe Magistrate of Mount Frere that I was going to gaol . I will not mention in fact the abuses that are done during the by-elections because in the way they are conducted they are conducted forcibly by the chiefs. In fact the chiefs are always owning up that they have no way out. They must just please Matanzima. They have no other way out, with the result that the results of the by-election should not be taken as a true reflection of what the people want. Further,there is a lot of possessiveness shown by the so-called Ministers of the Transkei. They tell them clearly that they will never get their salaries if they vote for a man who belongs to the Democratic Party. Further, during this reign of terror in the Transkei I wonder where the intellectuals should go to because the lawyers themselves are not in a good position to defend in the Transkei.

words here, particularly by some blatantly ignorant Ministers. If you look at one big cringing animal you will find that he is often confusing " consulting" and "negotiating" . Let me teach him today that there is difference between consulting and negotiating. (Interjections) To talk of negotiating at this stage is premature and in fact indicative of incitement. A lot has been said about Proclamation 400 which is at

MR. NOGCANTSI: The Minister of Justice pretends to be the Minister, whereas he is not one . There is a master Minister over him. Every legislation which is enacted comes from that Minister, and even our plight is due to that Minister.

present being used as the third degree of eliciting evidence. In fact I am putting it mildly. It is for creating evidence. I find that in fact there is no room

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: That is what you want on that side - provincial status.

- 55

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Why?

MR. NOGCANTSI: He is here to see the orderly functioning of this faction fight. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : And to see you do not employ herbalists . MR. NOGCANTSI: It is sad when you look at the meritricious attraction of separate development that at this stage they are fully exposed. You will find, when you look , that one of this edifice's legs is being broken. Everybody in the Transkei , no matter whether he is on the other side or not, feels shaky about the situation . The former deception which existed before the inception of this system has been dispelled completely. I thought that the removal of the kidney stone from the hon. the Chief Minister last time would make him change from this intransigence. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You thought that he would die and when he didn't you went to Doubt. MR. NOGCANTSI : At least I thought the reign of terror in the Transkei would come to a stop and that the callous injustice perpetrated under the mask of security would disappear. I thought that the rule of law would be restored. In fact, I understand that my friends here do not know what the rule of law is. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You do not understand it, and that is why you want to kill people. MR . NOGCANTSI: I will have to give them a short lesson. It means life, liberty , property, freedom of speech and movement of the individual. (Interj ections) Such freedom should not be endangered or restricted by the State save in accordance with the general precept set up by law, the applicability of the general precept being decided by a court of law. So far you will find there has been nothing done to improve the roads that lead to the trading stations. The T.N.I.P. members have become a secret service and the Ministers are busy devising various ways of torturing people physically and putting them into gaol so that they should torture them mentally . The continued retention of tribal authorities shows , in fact, that there will always be the policy of " divide and rule". Multi-racialism only means equality in every respect. It does not mean position-holders and torturers. When are we going to be emancipated from this perpetual servitude? When will we cease to be a perpetual asset to the white man? Why are we seeing all the progress only centred at Qamata? (Laughter)

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Because they are progressive. MR. NOGCANTSI: In other words, I wanted to put a finish to this by saying: Please come to your senses on the other side. If there is nothing else to do let us revert to the T.T.A. or to any other old system . We must not be fodder to enrich Matanzima and his helots. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members of the House, it is a pity that this morning this House and the gallery have been listening to a display of an anticipated defence in the case ofthe member who has just sat down. MR. NOGCANTSI: So you are the judge!

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Unfortunately this is not the House for a display of such anticipated evidence, so I will just dismiss all you said with the contempt it deserves. Mr. Chairman we listened for a period of about three and a half hours to the speech

12 of the hon. Leader of the Opposition and I regret to inform him that he has fallen short of the expectations, let alone of this side of the House, but of his own supporters. The statements of policy he made are damaging not only to himself as a representative of the people, but to the cause of his political party as a whole. His failure to tell the country how he himself and his party propose to put into effect their policy of multi-racialism could have serious repercussions in the complete eradication of the noxious weeds which we have across the floor at the next general elections. MR. NOGCANTSI: You will send them to gaol by foul means. THE CHIEF MINISTER: He has, as anticipated by this side of the House, stepped into the shoes of the respected veteran paramount chief, my friend Chief Victor Poto, and from his usual songs of white protection sung during the last two successive shows it has become apparent and obvious that these shoes will become too big for him and his henchmen and as a result he will be toppled over. Before launching my vicious attack on the speech and policies of the hon. Leader, I have the honour and respect to express the congratulations of this side of the House to the aging Paramount Chief at relinquishing the leadership and management of a sinking ship , and to wish him our highest felicitations in his able tribal administration. It is gratifying to note that the hon. Paramount Chief aforesaid has defied the protestations of his colleagues launched against the reclamation of our precious land and that he has completely rehabilitated his area of jurisdiction and is now busy collecting tribal funds for the erection of school buildings . THE MEMBERS: Hear, hear. THE CHIEF MINISTER: This interest in the welfare of his people has brought the Paramount Chief the highest regard and respect and esteem of my Govemment. I wish he would persuade some of the most stupid supporters of his party to stop fighting against Government projects which are intended for the economic development of the Transkeian citizens. Now, Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has criticized the Government for an alleged failure to embark on projects which would stimulate the industrial development of the Transkei under a policy of separate development. He contends that the Govemment has done nothing to stimulate industrial development in this country. As a man who usually locks himself up in his office at Mqanduli during office hours and there after rushes back and locks himself up in his house, I am afraid he is behind times because he cannot appreciate what the Government is doing. I would advise the hon. member to go to the areas where the Department of Agriculture is embarking on schemes which will lead to the industrialisation of the Transkei . Unfortunately he has never taken the trouble to visit these areas. I wish after this session he will go to Lambasi and also the mountain ranges of Tsolo and Umzimkulu where he will see certain projects which will lead to the industrialisation of the Transkei .

- 56 --

11

Industrial

development requires careful planning with many things involved. No industries can be opened up overnight. Mr. Chairman, the hon. member is so committed to bringing whites into the Transkei that he cannot imagine his own people doing anything for themselves. What would the hon. members across the floor do if they came into power? That is just a

return to that policy of separate development at a later stage. I am still dealing with the zoning of towns. The people of the Transkei are very grateful to the Govemment for its initiative in moving the Republican Government to zone the towns. MR. GUZANA: So you moved the Government? Why can't we move the Government?

hypothetical question. They would squander all the money, the taxes of the people, as they would from their own utterances spend it on salaries only, and all the projects which this Goverment is embarking upon would be discouraged. They would bring into the Transkei hundreds of whites , Indians , Chinese,

THE CHIEF MINISTER: To do what? MR. GUZANA: To do what we want them to do.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: But the Republican Govemment has declared in the most unequivocal terms that there will never be a multi-racial society in the towns of the Republic, and of the Transkei. And you say you are going to move them!

Malays, etc. , to displace the Transkei citizens from the land they inherited and dump them into locations established as reservoirs of cheap labour. This side of the House sees the Transkei as the home of the African people only. The African people should enjoy the monopoly of industrial development in their own area and to this end the Xhosa Development Corporation has been established. Now coming to his refe rences to zoning, I am sure that the country has taken notice of his utterances . His party is opposed to the zoning of the Transkeian towns and villages and therefore would like the position where the African people were denied the right of having properties in the towns maintained.

MR. GUZANA: That is what has been declared, but the point is what is happening. Are you looking at the realities of the situation or are you just talking about it?

THE CHIEF MINISTER: What is the reality? MR . you will to Cape the same

GUZANA: Walk into any place in town and find Europeans and Africans together. Go Town or anywhere else and you will find thing. (Interjections)

MR. K.M. GUZANA : That is not true.

to open the towns? I want to put that question to you.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Don't you worry. Don't bluff yourself, my friend, and do not bluff the people. You are a leamed man and you know the legal position of the country. When the zoning proclamation was promulgated there was general jubilation in the whole country. Everybody was pleased, except the hon. members across the floor who have, of course, no following except the following of the Ahrensteins, Duncans, Vignes , etc.

MR. GUZANA: I will have that power when I am the Government.

MR. GUZANA: Were your A.N.C. , P.A.C. and A. A. C. friends happy too? (Interjections)

THE CHIEF MINISTER : What Goverment? The Goverment of the Republic, as you support provincial status . The hon. member has told the country

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Who are your followers? You say you represent the people. You have no people following you except your shadows.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: If he does not support that position , what does he support? MR. GUZANA : Open towns. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Is it within your power

that his party will stand for provincial status for the Transkei .... GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Shame!

THE CHIEF MINISTER : .... and the policy which disallows the African people from having property in town is the policy of the Republican Government. MR. GUZANA: You know I do not follow the policy of Republican Government. THE CHIEF MINISTER: The hon. member is opposed to the African people having property rights in the towns today.

MR. NOGCANTSI : How did it come about that we were elected? THE CHIEF MINISTER : Now, Mr. Chairman, the hon. member has concerned himself so much with the financial disabilities of the African people and said that because the African people are financially handicapped they cannot purchase the properties which have been made open to them. I think he wants to make the people understand that he is the only person who can purchase a property in a municipal area, because he trekked from a small location in Keiskamahoek into the Transkei when he could not be admitted into a multi-racial society in his area, the Ciskei ..... MR. GUZANA: When was that?

MR. GUZANA: Where do you get that? THE CHIEF MINISTER: In other words , the present municipal councils who represent the white community should retain these towns for white Occupation only. That is in terms of the Urban Areas Act and when you say you want them to be

THE CHIEF MINISTER: ...and managed, through his European friends, to get a property in Umtata. MR. GUZANA: house in Qamata .

open you are granting the people a blank cheque because it is not within your power to do so. I will - 57 --

Like you did to build your

THE CHIEF MINISTER: I want to put it to you

that the African people are just as anxious as you to have properties in town. MR. GUZANA: They have them.in Ncambedļana. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Please , my friend, stop regarding Ncambedlana as the only place where they should have property. What we wanted is title to land. Never mind the price of the buildings or the land in towns , but the law should allow the African people to have land in their own homeland . Under the policy of my hon. friend of provincial status for the Transkei , there is no hope that the African will ever own land in this country. He does not seem to understand the position , educated as he is, particularly in law. He knows the legal position in the Republic of South Africa, that the towns belong to the white people only. Then he says we must just discard our own rights for a blank cheque . Mr. Chairman, I will return to that question of zoning when I am dealing with the question of multiracialism. At present I just want to reply to the allegations that the Government has done nothing. Now the Opposition has accused the Govemment of neglecting its own public service . I want to put a question to my hon. friend. This is a hypothetical question. Suppose his party came into power, what would their civil service be composed of? · a mixture ofwhites, Chinese, Indians, Coloureds, Swahilis , Nyassas, etc. , to the exclusion of the citizens of the Transkei. His policy should have excluded the 875 civil servants who have , since the establishment of this Government, obtained employment. This side of the House will not be treacherous to the aborigines of this country. MR . C. DIKO : How much are they being paid? THE CHIEF MINISTER: Wait · you have just come back from Grahamstown. You know nothing about the Transkei. The Transkeian civil service is all black and is indebted to the Transkei Government for what they are doing for them. We have no white civil servants in our civil service. You cannot even understand that we have no white civil servants in our civil service.

OPPOSITION behind you?

MEMBER:

What

about those

THE CHIEF MINISTER: He does not even know that those white officials are loaned officials who are not employed by the Transkei Government . (Interjections ) Now progressively the white civil servants who have been seconded are being replaced. Eighty-six of them have been withdrawn and their places taken by Africans in two years. OPPOSITION MEMBER : What are you paying them?

THE CHIEF MINISTER : The Transkei is not going to emulate other countries in its civil service. It will pay its civil servants in accordance with its means . Before self- government the Transkei civil service was manned by 1,936 Africans employed by the Republican Government. Today there are 13,000 labourers. There were no judicial officers. Today there are nine judicial officers , and you say this Government is doing nothing to ameliorate the position of the civil service in the Transkei. There were no circuit inspectors. MR. GUZANA: Give us the names of the judicial - 58

officers . THE CHIEF MINISTER : You will get them in the Minister's policy statement. Today there are three circuit inspectors. I could submit the names of many more civil servants if time allowed me. The salaries and wages were increased in the first year this Government came into power. MR . DIKO : Increased from what? THE CHIEF MINISTER: Listen, please. I am pleased to advise you.... Listen , you stupid. MR. DIKO : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. I wish you to request the hon. the Chief Minister to withdraw the word "stupid". THE CHAIRMAN : That is nothing. Carry

on.

MR. DIKO ; Mr. Chairman.... THE CHIEF MINISTER: Sit down , you stupid. (Laughter) I am pleased to advise you that the Goverment will continue to apply to the Public Service Commission for general increases in salaries to be paid to our civil servants. Because you are so stupid and selfish not to enter the offices of the senior public officials and find out these things, you are not in a position to know what is happening. There is nothing in the word " stupid" . If I am not clever I am stupid. I am referring to me now. MR. DIKO : That is why you are not paying people properly · because you are stupid. (Laughter) THE CHIEF MINISTER : Coming to the question of education, much capital has been made of a statement that purported to have been issued by me in the Press in connection with mother tongue instruction in schools. Whilst all of you could do nothing about the matter, I approached the Republican Government on this matter of mother tongue instruction and made representations that in the Transkei the people would like that the mother tongue instruction should be abolished because of certain factors, but that did not mean to say that I did not agree with the fundamental and general principle that education through the mother tongue is the best education. That did not mean to say that I have to discard my language altogether. Whether you like it or not, hon. members on the other side, as a national unit the time will come when mother tongue will be the medium of instruction from Sub A right up to the highest degree subject. Yes, you shake your head, because you are a black Englishman. MR. GUZANA: Are you a black Nationalist? Say "yes". THE CHIEF MINISTER: Never mind . I know what I am. Every nation, every race · if you go overseas you will find all the countries have instruction in their mother tongue. The Germans teach their children in their mother tongue , the Swiss , etc. (Interjections ) Do you mean to say we shall never be highly developed ? I believe you are frustrated because you labour under the policy of British Imperialism , a policy which discarded everything that belongs to the African in this country , a policy that destroyed their traditions, a policy that destroyed their language. (Int erjections) Fortunately the people of the Transkei who do not support your contention will see to it that their mother tongue comes up to the forefront and becomes a world language. The Cingo Commission which you endorsed in this House in regard to mother tongue

instruction made it clear to you, unless you refuse to understand, that the fundamental principle in education is that the child should be taught through the mother tongue . MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Only in the early stages. THE CHIEF MINISTER: No nation worth its salt can afford to forsake its own language and thrust it into oblivion. Preparations are being made to develop our language and when the books are available, when the language or the terminology is developed, then we shall start teaching our children in our own mother tongue. Do not make political capital out of it and distort what I said. MR. GUZANA: What was the distortion?

there is nothing wrong with the syllabus which the African people accepted .... MR.

RAJUILI :

MR . T.H. committees .

Which this

BUBU:

House rejected.

You put people on those

THE CHIEF MINISTER: This House rejected Bantu education . The hon. member next to you , Chief Majeke , was sent to Pretoria in connection with Bantu education.... OPPOSITION MEMBER: We are speaking about the present. THE CHIEF MINISTER: .... and he came back and said....

THE CHIEF MINISTER: The distortion is that some of your colleagues · not you, my honourable friend

MR. RAJUILI : education.

MR. GUZANA: No , I quoted you correctly. I want to know what the distortion is. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Some of your colleagues inferred that I said mother tongue instruction would be introduced immediately . Why do you raise the matter at all if you understood me correctly? MR. GUZANA: I criticized you on the principle of mother tongue instruction when Xhosa cannot, in the foreseeable future , develop sufficiently to become an academic and technical language. THE CHIEF MINISTER: How do you know that? MR. GUZANA: History tells us so. The people are keen to leam English because it is a world language . THE CHIEF MINISTER: I cannot help you if you cannot understand. The Afrikaans-speaking people were forced to adopt English but it did not take them long to develop their own language so that now they use it right up to university standards.

This

House

rejected

Bantu

THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. THE CHIEF MINISTER : There is no Bantu education in the Transkei and you will never find it here.

MR. BUBU: Some of the people on those committees threatened to resign when we asked them to change the syllabus because they were so dedicated to Bantu education. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Coming to the question of jurisdiction of chiefs which has been so canvassed by some of the members on that side of the House, there has been so much talk on the Opposition benches about the chiefs not being suitable as legislators and I want to make it clear that the membership of chiefs in this House is one of the most fundamental principles of our constitution, and it is a clause which will never be altered. (Interjections) You must just take your water after drinking and go to bed . Our constitution is based on the tradition and customs of our people. MR. BUBU: That is an untruth.

MR. GUZANA: They have no medical text books today in Afrikaans . Do not mislead the people. THE CHIEF MINISTER: In any case they have the language now on an equal basis. Now, much capital has been made in the debate about the syllabus of our Education Department, but it is strange to say that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition who is criticizing those committees which dealt with the syllabi was a member of those committees. It is a strange thing for a politician to be included in the committees of the Department, but he is so dishonest he has to come here and blame his own colleagues. MR. GUZANA: Ask the Minister of Education if I attended those committee meetings.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : When I say that, I am referring to the subjects of the chiefs here and the chiefs across the floor. Apart from the chiefs across the floor you are mere agitators on that side and we just put cotton into our ears and do not listen to people of your type. No amount of terrorism from these agitators across the floor will ever make the chiefs surrender their birthright. Whether you employ the Doubts or the "tsotsis" and the white ducktails from Johannesburg, these chiefs and their subjects will remain and, with their counsellors their true counsellors " when all the agitators on that side are eliminated, will legislate for their people. (Interjections ) The subjects of these chiefs -- the people who matter - have accepted the constitution because they know that only the chiefs will avoid passing legislation which would be against their interests.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: None of us on this side of the House is responsible for this syllabus except you, Mr. Bubu and Miss Twetwa, but you go to your colleagues and tell them you did not submit what they told you . (Interjections) Where have you ever seen politicians being members of committees · people who know nothing about educa-

pass legislation that will please Ahrenstein, Vigne and Duncan, who is now across the seas. You will

tion? (Interjections) It was because of your obstinacy to understand . So that you will understand that

discard everything which is traditional to the Bantu people.

MR. NOGCANTSI : What about their bodyguards? THE CHIEF MINISTER: You on that side will

- 59 --

MR. GUZANA: Don't let your imagination run away with you. Come down to earth.

(Interjections) I want to spare my hon. Chief. I will come to him later on. That is the hon. Chief S.S. I do not want to destroy him because I am so friendly with him but he made such a scathing attack on the chiefs that I feel I must tell him that he must be very careful. These are traditional leaders who can trace their chieftainship for generation . Unfortunately for him we are not in a position to trace his chieftainship. His own father was a policeman. He became a chief when he sold the Transkei on the altar of Bantu education . OPPOSITION MEMBER : And you are a more recent salesman . (Laughter) THE CHIEF MINISTER : I was a paramount chief when I was born. I am a descendant of the first paramount chief, Mtirara. (Interjections) Now, Mr. Chairman , I just want to make a scathing attack on the dishonesty of certain members across the floor and you must listen. I am sorry that my hon. friend , the paramount chief, is involved . I am going to give certain quotations of their utterances during the year 1957 in respect of separate development. Those were the leaders of the Territorial Authority, the people to whom we had to listen and follow. The hon. Paramount Chief said in his reply to an address made by the honourable Dr. Verwoerd, Prime Minister of the Republic, who was then Minister of Native Affairs : " During your time , Sir, recognised chiefs who were unknown in previous times were appointed by the Government, and new chiefs who were not then recognised as chiefs were also recognised. " OPPOSITION MEMBER: What is the significance ofthat?

THE CHIEF MINISTER: I want to show that the present Paramount Chief, in support of chieftainship, praised Dr. Verwoerd for restoring what had been destroyed by British Imperialism , which you praise so much. He went on : " That act on the part of the Government awakened our spirit of pride in our race and we felt we were being recognised as people who were formerly administered by their own chiefs. I shall not say anything about the criticisms which have been levelled at the action of the Government because some irresponsible people came forward to say Dr. Verwoerd was creating a precedent by making chiefs indiscriminately. Today you find in this country that there is the Bantu race and the European race. Previously the Bantu people inhabited these areas and they were controlled by their chiefs , but when the white man arrived the status of many of the chiefs diminished and they were deprived of their positions as chiefs

- 60 .

屋主

THE CHIEF MINISTER : I want to tell the hon. member that we have experience of what I am talking about in all the African states that were formerly under white rule. They were given constitutions that relegated chieftainship to the background. We know the intentions of the Opposition in appointing the present Leader of the Opposition . We know that among you there are those who have already imbibed the doctrines of Ahrenstein to the extent that they do not even want to see the chiefs. I just want to warn the chiefs who are on that side, sitting among the jackals , that they are supporting their enemies people who will rise against them one day and , because they are sitting amongst them, chop their necks. There is a case in Grahamstown already

of their people. We are therefore thankful to the Goverment for what it has done for our chiefs, particularly in the Transkeian Territories." Now you listen to what the same hon. Paramount Chief said to a meeting of the Institute of Race Relations in Cape Town, and make deductions for yourselves as to what type of character he has been. Now, whether he was invited to attend that meeting as a multi -racialist , nobody knows, but this is the statement he made on the 18th January, 1966: " The present political involvement of the chiefs and headmen is feared for the perpetuation of chieftainship. " Now you form your own conclusions as to what that means. It means that at one time or another chieftainship should come to an end.

MR. GUZANA: I think you had better go to school and learn English. You don't know how to read. THE CHIEF MINISTER: I was at the University of Fort Hare with my hon. friend where we both studied English.

MR. GUZANA : Yes, you only managed Course I in English. 2 THE CHIEF MINISTER: I went as far as Course II in English, which is the only course which renders a man some knowledge of English. (Interjections) Listen to what the hon. Paramount Chief says : "At present the chiefs and headmen are legislators, administrators and judicial officers and this to us is an unhealthy combination. Their political alignment is bound to.... " (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : If the hon. members of this Assembly do not behave I shall have to adjourn this meeting.

man.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Thank you, Mr. Chair"...and this is bound to affect the chiefs'

S administration. In a changing African society the chief cannot hope to exercise the same type of authority formerly enjoyed by him over a primitive society." Imagine calling his own people a primitive society! He goes on: "The preservation of the institution of chieftainship will depend on the willingness of the chief to surrender his prerogative until he ultimately becomes a figurehead. " He says that in order to be a chief, a chief will have to give up all his prerogatives and become a mere puppet. I can imagine a chief who will surrender his right to these people in front of us. (Laughter) "It is only in this way that the institution of chieftainship is likely to remain. The tribal structure is in process of disintegration. Tribal institutions can no longer cope with the demands of a changing society a society that is moving away from primitive conservatism." I put the question to the hon . Chief: Why did he request Dr. Verwoerd to resuscitate chieftainship? (Interjections) If he knew that chieftainship was a primitive institution he should not have requested Dr. Verwoerd to resuscitate chieftainship . British Imperialism had destroyed chieftainship but they thanked Dr. Verwoerd for resuscitating it. In other words, in his political expediency and in his cowardice of fearing the Doubts and all the other murderers in the country, he now surrenders his birthright. MR. GUZANA: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I feel that if there is any quotation and if ideas are imputed to anybody they must be the

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correct ones, as stated. The imputation that the Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland has, in this document, undermined chieftainship and that he wants it to die is not true. THE CHIEF MINISTER : That cannot be a point of order. On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, he is going to have his chance of replying to my speech. MR. GUZANA: A point of order cannot be taken on a point of order. If you are willing to hear me, it is just that where a statement is falsely interpreted it is necessary that it should be corrected at the time.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman, you can see that I have the same paper as my hon. friend has. If he has his own interpretation of what is here he will be in a position to give it when he makes his speech . THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members, before we adjoum I would like to inform the hon. members that my intention was to finish this motion today. Because of the number of interjections, it is clear to me that we cannot finish today. The House will now adjourn until 2.15 p.m.

The debate was adjourned.

瓜 AFTERNOON SESSION.

E The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate on the motion of no confidence was resumed. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, when we adjourned I submitted two statements which are regarded as very diametrically opposed to one another and which cannot be reconciled. I put certain questions to the hon. paramount chiefs and all the chiefs on the other side as to whether they are sincere in saying that chieftainship must be brought to an end. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: We never said that. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Are they aware of the fact that they are working in conjunction with people who are sincere in their opposition to chieftainship? That was proved yesterday in a scathing attack on the chiefs by the hon. member for Fingoland, Mr. Mpondo. We listened very attentively to the vicious attacks made by the hon. Dr. Bala on the whites of South Africa. Instead of confining himself to criticizing the Government, he made the most racialistic and anti-white speech ever made in this House. It is most amazing that such a speech should come from a member of the Opposition , a member of a party that has professed and aspires to a multiracial society in the Transkei. This again proves our point of view that the opposition, who professedly want to co-operate and intermingle with the Europeans and all the other races, is in fact more antiwhite and racialistic than could ever be imagined. I hope the country as a whole will take note of this attitude. It is a question of a crocodile snapping its jaws at the bird that cleans its teeth? (Laughter) It is clear beyond any reasonable doubt that this hon. member regards this House as a political platform that is going to fight against the Republic of South Africa. His statement, considered together

with the statement made by the hon. Mr. Mpondo, is the most convincing evidence that as long as we have persons of their character in this House, so long will white South Africa be convinced that Communism is playing havoc among certain smallminded people in our midst. The tone of the hon. Mr. Mpondo's speech is that of an agitator who is ruthlessly opposed to chieftainship and I hope the chiefs and their people have taken note of their attitude. His vituperations directed against the hon. the Minister of Education are indicative of his crude behaviour at all times behaviour which led to his dismissal from the teaching profession . His utterances expose him and expose his pitiful lack of culture and common courtesy . He has a wrong conception of what a parliamentarian should be. He thinks that to be a parliamentarian he has a licence to insult other people, and of course he suffers from an inferiority complex and was making an attempt to shine. We know him, of course, Mr. Chairman, to have had a deep and sustained hatred for chieftainship , hence his aggressive behaviour towards the institution of chiefs. I want to assure him that the chiefs are the respected, democratic leaders of their people and we at no time abdicate to his political philosophy . Coming to my hon. friend, the member for Gcalekaland, Mr. Moses Dumalisile, who quoted what he purported to have been said by his Honour, the Commissioner-General , at a civic association meeting, for the information of this House I shall quote what the CommissionerGeneral said from his speech and not what the papers purported and reported that he had said, Amongst otherthings the Commissioner-General said: " People who regarded themselves as part and parcel of the permanent population of the Transkei in the past will have to realise that they (and I am now speaking purely of the European community) are no longer regarded as being part of the permanent population and that they will have to leave the Transkei sooner or later. " I am trying to be fair. I say that the man's statement should be quoted and not what the papers reported. OPPOSITION MEMBER: Where did you get that? THE CHIEF MINISTER: For example, we did not want to quote what the leaders of the Opposition were supposed to have said at a meeting of the Institute of Race Relations in Cape Town. We tried to get the actual document, and here it is . The Commissioner- General further says: "Today the Transkei does not offer a future for would-be young Transkeian businessmen (meaning Europeans). These younger generations of Transkeians will therefore have to look across the border of this territory for a future livelihood. (Interjections ) I am trying to show that in our party we are consistent, and the Republican Government is as consistent as we are. We do not get any dictation from Peking or from Russia. MR. GUZANA: You have got dictatorship closer than that. THE CHIEF MINISTER: " Traders and businessmen must always bear in mind that the Transkei is a black state and nothing is going to alter that. In fact it will become progressively blacker as trading stations and town properties pass from white to black ownership. The nature of the business will alter and if people are willing to stay in the Transkei they will have to adjust themselves to the new ways

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of business. I do not know of a single individual , black or white , who can at this juncture of the Transkei's development state with a reasonable

hon. member from Western Pondoland, Mr. L. Maninjwa. I will not read the motion but will just read what he said: " Mr. Chairman, some people do not understand the Government policy known as separate development and that causes some doubt as to whether or not it can work. This is the Government policy which is asked for in this motion. What we seek is that the Government should put this into practice, not just say by word of mouth that people should have separate development. " He further says : "This motion seeks to show the world that we do not doubt the policy which the Government has given us. All that we want is that this policy should be put into practice. I think , Mr. Chairman, if that takes effect there will be no difference of opinion because people will see what is going to be done by this policy for the Bantu people. I will repeat myself and say the people of the Transkei want this policy of separate development that the Government should put into practice." That was the hon. member across the floor. He must stand up and say that when he said that he was in dreamland.

shade of accuracy when the Transkei will be entirely black or when the last European officials will have been replaced by black officials. " My hon. friend says the Commissioner- General said the Transkei whites will live here for many, many , many years . What distortion ! OPPOSITION MEMBER : Do they specify a date? THE CHIEF MINISTER : We are not so foolish as to specify a date.

The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until Monday, 2nd May , 1966 .

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a.m. on

MONDAY, 2ND MAY, 1966. The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.

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Prayers were read. MR . B.S. RAJUILI : Do you think he would always ask for it, even with an inefficient Government?

The minutes of Friday, 29th April , were taken as read and confirmed. ANNOUNCEMENT. THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members, I note that there are very few members here today. I shall ask the Whips to go into this position because we cannot allow such a thing. We shall have to adopt a system whereby if the members do not come in time on Monday morning they will not get their remuneration for that day. TABLING OF DOCUMENTS OR REPORTS . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I lay upon the table a copy of Goverment Notice No. 78 of 1966 (Ex officio Commissioners of Oaths) published in Official Gazette No. 62 dated 4th February , 1966 .

NO-CONFIDENCE. The debate was resumed. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , when we adjourned on Friday I was still attacking theOpposition on their changing of faces all the time. Today I want first of all to deal at length with this theory of the Opposition members of a multi-racial policy. I say it is a theory because none of them has been able to place before . the country what they would do in order to bring it into practice. I want to show that even one of their front benchers, the hon. Chief S. S. Majeke , canvassed that the application of the policy of separate development would bring about peace amongst all the races in South Africa. He made these utterances, Mr. Chairman, when the motion for self-government was moved in the Transkei Territorial Authority in 1961. Now I will quote what he said in order to show that the very protagonists of a policy which is unknown in the world were the leaders , the champions of getting the Transkei Bantu selfgovernment, and in order to come to this hon . gentleman I think it is only right to read the motion , to give the intention of certain important men on that side of the House. One of them is looking at me now. This was the motion brought about by the

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Now listen to what the hon. member, Chief S.S. Majeke, the well known chameleon, has said in this matter. I am sorry he is not in the House this morning because in 1964 I quoted to this House his resounding praises of Mr. de Wet Nel, requesting the Territorial Authority to send him a telegram for piloting the Promotion of Self- Government Bill. Now I will quote what he said on another occasion. On that occasion he wanted a solution to the peaceful relations in this country. You should mark the words that if this policy is adopted there will be peace in this country. I will read what he says : " I think this motion is the most important motion (referring to the motion by the hon. Mr. Maninjwa). I think it meets all the desires and wishes of the Authority. " He goes on and says: "Let me talk about representation in Parliament . As you are aware Parliament makes all the laws that affect us. This country is a multiracial country consisting of Bantu, Europeans , Indians and Coloured races. I think we all know that the Parliament consists only of white people and those are the people who legislate for us. " He goes on to remind listeners of attempts to open the door to Native representation in Parliament and how these failed . He says : "Those resolutions were passed by the defunct Bunga. I think those resolutions were passed about ten years ago. I am now trying to point out that it has been the wish of the people of these parts that Parliament should not consist of one racial group. I think it was pointed out that if that position were allowed to go on there would never be peace in this country. In 1953 a resolution was passed that there should be an improvement in race relations in the Union of South Africa. I think the mover of this motion is trying to get to that point and that is the principle underlying the motion . The Government passed a law known as the Promotion of Bantu Self-Government Act. By passing such a law the Goverment was hindering us from having direct representation in Parliament. The present Government , as well as the previous Governments, have invariable objected to any direct representation of the Bantu people in Parliament. " Then he says : " Now let us think seriously. Let us find ways and means of solving this problem. I think what the mover had in mind

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when he introduced this motion was that there should be harmony amongst the various races. In order that harmony should be maintained the law of give and take will have to be applied. When the Government objected to direct representation of the Bantu people by their own people they said they would set aside certain states for the Bantu people where they would govern themselves. The Government has made a pronouncement that there would be seven or eight independent Bantu states. Now it is only one of those states that is seeking for this concession. We are all aware that no party is prepared to give us concessions except the Progressive Party . I have great doubt as to whether it will ever be in power as it is unlikely to be supported by the majority of South Africans. The position being so, we ask that the Government should give us what is declared to be ours in the future." Now as he is always a man who is sure of himself, he says : " If any councillor does not lift up his hand in support of this motion I shall be surprised. " Look at him. " If this resolution is passed it should be stated at the bottom of this resolution that this motion was passed with unanimity and that word 'unanimity ' should appear at the bottom of this resolution. " He said he wanted a platform. He is a queer figure. However, we must excuse him. Now, Mr. Chairman , I do not want to quote all these pro- Bantu govemment statements made by certain prominent members on the other side, but you cannot deceive the people. You must be consistent in your attitude. You cannot tell them that you stand for one thing at one time and another thing at another time. You have tried on the other side to show the world that we can be inconsistent on this side, particularly the Matanzima brothers. I want to tell the hon. member, for the information of the House, that when the hon. Mr. Dana makes accusations in this House he should support them by documentary evidence. He must not just come and make wild statements which cannot be supported and which are, in fact, untrue. The same applies to the hon. member from Fingoland, Mr. Mpondo. I have at no time been a member of the All-African Convention. For his information that organisation has no individual membership. It is an organisation which affiliates other organisations. Now for his benefit and for the benefit of the members on the other side, I was born an African standing for the policy for which I stand now. That is why I left the University College with a degree to starve in Qamata instead of going to seek employment, like all the other men on the other side. Look at the hon. member from Fingoland. He says Chief George was a friend of Sobukwe. Chief George does not even know that man, but because they know that we can indict them of their association with certain people, as I am going to indict them now, I am going to show what the associates of the members on the other side are. They are starting to panic already. (Laughter) It will be interesting, Mr. Chairman, to note that while one of the witnesses in the case which is going on in Grahamstown was giving evidence in the Nogcantsi /Nkosiyane drama which has been so publicized in the Press , he testified that Nkosiyane, the hon. member for Dalindyebo , had introduced a white man to him, referring to that man as "their Communist friend" . That was published in the paper. He said: "I am introducing to you our Communist friend. " I would like the hon. the Leader of the Opposition to react to that situation. Where is the dividing line in their friendship with the Communists on that side of the House? (Interjections) What is their attitude going to be to such relations in their party? If it were on this side of the House we would

dismiss him from the party, but you cannot dismiss him because the hon. Leader has been appointed to liquidate that dying conglomeration of men with a diversity of views. You cannot blame this side of the House because of these utterances that practically the whole lot of you on that side of the House are communistically inclined. MR. RAJ UILI : That is nonsense.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Now the Leader of the Opposition and certain members on that side canvassed to a great extent the Ndamse question. I will make a statement in order to alleviate their feelings in this matter, but before doing so I would request the hon. member that if he wants to have a passport to go to America from the Republican Government, he should stop his associations with people who have the ideas I have just quoted now. Because of his mentality of knowing that there is a Government in the Transkei , he still lives in a provincial status. He did not even consult this Government about his application for a passport to proceed to America. We got to know about this for the first time in the Press. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Don't tell a lie. THE CHIEF MINISTER : You should have come to see the Chief Minister about the matter. MR. GUZANA: Why should I see the Chief Minister? I went through the proper channels. THE CHIEF MINISTER: I am telling you we got to hear this for the first time from the Press .

MR . GUZANA: And I am telling you I applied through the usual channels. Don't you know what is happening in the Government departments? THE CHIEF MINISTER: Just because you are a black white man you do not consider coming to your friends here. OPPOSITION MEMBER : What is a black white man? THE CHIEF MINISTER : You are a black Englishman, I should say. MR. GUZANA: You are a black Nationalist. THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is perfectly true. I wish to make a short statement in connection with

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the Ndamse question which was raised by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. He made such a big mountain about this matter, as if he knew all about it, and what was interesting to him in the matter I am unable to say. The position is that a restriction order in terms of the Suppression of Communism Act, No. 4 of 1950, issued by the Republican Minister of Justice in whom the responsibility for maintaining the internal security of the Republic vests , was served on Mr. Ndamse who was at that time a temporary teacher in one of the Transkeian schools . OPPOSITION MEMBER : Government?

Why the Republican

THE CHIEF MINISTER : The security of this country is not provided for in our constitution. You must read your constitution. It falls under the Republican Government. The effect of this restric-

tion was, amongst other things , that

Mr. Ndamse

could not continue to teach in any school or take up any similar post. At that time Mr. Ndamse had applied for a post of professional assistant in the head office of the Education Department and when he was recommended by the Public Service Commission, this Government decided to make representations to the Minister of Justice in the Republic . The object of our representations was to persuade the hon. the Minister of Justice of the Republic to withdraw or relax the restriction order so that Mr. Ndamse could take up a post in our Education Department. It was decided that pending the outcome of these representations Mr. Ndamse should be paid the salary attached to the post which he occupied before he was restricted. I am happy to inform the members of this House today that as a result of our representations and certain assurances given by us, the Minister of Justice has decided to lift certain of the restrictions and to change the restriction order so as to allow Mr. Ndamse to take up a suitable post in the Department of Education. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: This Government has now in fact offered Mr. Ndamse a suitable post which he will be able to occupy and the post of professional assistant will be filled temporarily until the matter has been finally settled. I hope I have given you the green light on this matter and I hope this delicate situation will not be pursued any further, if at all you are interested in the person whose name you have made use of. Now, Mr. Chairman, I think I have said so much about this question of multi-racialism but I wish to note for the country that it pleases us to have heard from the Leader of the Opposition that their party accepts social apartheid. By social apartheid I think they accept segregation socially · that the black people must not mingle with the whites socially. Now what is left of their policy if we accept that situation? It means that their party supports the exclusion of Africans from the law-making bodies as their party is satisfied with a provincial status. In other words, the Opposition members would like the former position which took place before 1963 to apply. They are, of course, led by their United Party which is the real exponent of their policies. (Interjections ) Sir de Villiers Graaff is your leader. You are opposed to the zoning of the towns, you accept social apartheid, you would like to be a province of the Republic. In other words, you will not be in any law-making bodies in the country. MR. T.H. BUBU: Where do the law-makers in Cape Town come from? THE CHIEF MINISTER : They are the white citizens of the country and that is entrenched in that no black man will set his their constitution foot in the Cape Town Parliament. I put the question to you and the Leader of theOpposition. He must tell the country how he is going to bring about a multi-racial Parliament. Instead of going to Cape Town and calling upon the whites to open the door for him and his party to enter, he comes to us and says we must abandon what we have for what we do not know. The country is tired of these theories. Come back to brass tacks . Do not theorize. You can put this multi-racialism in any language you like , but tell the country how this is going to be put into effect. Even that Progressive Party, hon. member from Johannesburg, supports apartheid in that it has

only got a qualified franchise for African people. They know that because of the educational qualifications of the white man they will be the only voters because the United Party has stated it in no uncertain terms that no black man will set his foot in Cape Town Parliament, but they offer nothing to us.

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MR. RAJUILI : The United Party don't offer anything to anybody. THE CHIEF MINISTER: I am pleased you say that, but you say we must revert to their policy.

MR. RAJ UILI : We never said that. THE CHIEF MINISTER : The moment we are a province we shall not be in any law-making body. (Interjections ) The hon . Chief S.S. Majeke told a full Territorial Authority that as long as they claimed direct representation in the Parliament of the Republic there will never be peace in this country. Now have you since advised him that you must attain your goal by revolutionary methods ? The people on this side of the House are realists . They deal with practical issues. The hon. Chief says he wants the whole Republic to himself. When did you have the whole of the Republic to yourselves before? You have belonged to the Transkei. It is your country and the Republic of South Africa was taken from your forefathers a long time ago. It became the land of the King of England. Do not bluff the people and say you want the whole of South Africa. Today you cannot even appreciate the proclamation which has recently been issued giving the land back to its original owners - the people of the Transkei . (Interjections ) You say we must say we do not want our land. We would advise you to get out of the Transkei and go to the Republic. Mr. Chairman , if I were to deal with all the changing attitudes of the members across the floor I would be wasting my time, but I just want to attack a very prominent figure on that side, that is the hon. Chief D.D. P. Ndamase, and quote his utterances on this demand for self- government which was made in 1961. He said : "On the 31st May this country will cease to be a member of the Common-wealth of Nations. We want to assist the Government as well as the white people with whom we are living in order to save the Government from the embarrassment of being critized by the rest of the world. We want to attain self-government by mutual consent with the Goverment. Sir, I wish to remind you that Bantu authorities is not the end. There are still greater things than Bantu authorities. It was merely preparatory to something greater and that is what we are asking for. " He goes on to say that Bantu intellectuals who are termed agitators would have something to do when self- government is in action . Now that is correct, because some of those agitators came straight from Ngquza mountain without any training to sit in this House. (Interjections) Then he says those people who are known as agitators will have something to do because they will be members of the contemplated parliament "and they will have to make the laws for us and do all things which make a complete nation. " I am sorry, I have misquoted. That is the hon . Chief Majeke. Those are his words. Now on that occasion, if you tum to page 52 of the 1961 Proceedings you will find that I admonished the movers of this motion to go slowly, to make haste slowly. That has been my policy and it is my policy today O to go slowly. Don't keep shouting in the streets that we want liberty,

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as some of the members on the other side say. As a leader of the people I caution people to go slowly. But listen to what they said on that occasion. I will now quote the hon. member for Dalindyebo , Paramount Chief Sabata. I am sorry he is not present in the House today and with all due respect, as my paramount chief, I think he must come to this side of the House after I have read this : "I fail to understand why we should be slow and reluctant to accept what the Government is giving us. I have a cutting here from one of the newspapers and in it there is a statement by the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development. He states there is by no means anything wrong with the discussion of the principle of self-government in the Transkeian Territorial Authority . This principle is already laid down in the Promotion of Bantu Self-Government Act. The Bantu should handle and administer their own affairs. Why should we be afraid to control and administer our own affairs when those in authority are handing that authority to us?" Now the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase says: "Mr. Chairman, I think this amendment is selfexplanatory." (This is his amendment that chieftainship should be entrenched in the constitution of the Transkei. ) This was his amendment : That a committee should be appointed to consider the financial implications of Bantu self-government, bearing in mind , inter alia, all taxes direct or indirect payable by the Bantu in these Territories ; to consider, in the event of such self-government being granted and established, it shall not in any way tamper with the present set-up of chieftainship in these Territories ; to consider the relations between the Government and the proposed Bantu state, Now, on that occasion he wanted a Bantu state and not a provincial council, and as a leader we listened to him very attentively and followed his advice. Shall we have to follow your advice in future, Sir? He goes on to say: "I think if a person will look through Our Blue Books he will find that this Authority even before it became a Territorial Authority and while it was still the U.T.T.G.C. , always asked for what is contained in this motion. I think it is because of those requests that the Government has allowed the establishment of Bantu authorities and created a law whereby people should develop on their own lines. " Now, Mr. Chairman, it must be clear beyond reasonable doubt that the differences between the two parties are on two points · the question of bringing in the Transkei whites to this Chamber; the question of giving them land rights in the Transkei ; the question of giving them full citizenship status in our own land. Now theOpposition members are so generous and such Christians that God will punish them one day, as to offer a small land which the African people of the Transkei had, for what they do not know they will get. Now this side of the House says that the Transkei will belong to the black people and that the white people of the Transkei will not be citizens in this country . That is what will be done by the other black races in other parts of South Africa. When they get back their own country they will adopt the same attitude . We say that the towns in the Transkei should belong to the black people and theOpposition says that is wrong and that the white people should retain these towns. They will request the Republican Government to give us a concession to go into those towns. They will request the Republican Government to amend the Urban Areas Act. In other words , you are signing a blank cheque and you say to us: Here is your money. The Republican Government has entrenched the policy that the towns should belong

to the white man only in the Republic. Fortunately the people understand us on this side of the House and they are with us and all these agitators who managed to get into this House through the back door will be eliminated at the polls in 1968. Now the second point is that we say the Transkei belongs to the chiefs and their people . No amount of communist agitation will alter the situation . If the Communist leaders want the Transkei they will get it on the battlefield. The land now has, by proclamation, been handed over to the chiefs and their people. Nothing will alter that situation. Yes , we know their tactics. They come to us one by one during the night. They are such cowards and their henchmen empoly the Doubts and other people to come and shoot the Chief Minister of the Transkei , but fortunately for us the people whom we represent in this House understand the position. In other words, you have an uphill task. You must go back to the people who instructed you to bring forward this policy and tell them that you have failed. I say you were instructed because when you went to the polls you went there on a ticket of separate development, but immediately you came into this Chamber you became multi-racialists . We want you to cite a single country in the world where the policy you propagate has ever applied. You talk about America. You find the Negroes frustrated, without any nationhood. They are labouring under the oppressive yoke of Imperialists. You talk about England · your own people have no rights in that country. Go up north, you say, and in the black states there are multiracial societies. Those people are kicking out the Europeans from their countries. Is that what you want to do?

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: That is what you are doing. THE CHIEF MINISTER : You quote African states as being multi-racial. You even quote Basutoland next door. For your information Basutoland belongs to the Basuto. The white people have no land rights in Basutoland. I think my hon. friend, Mr. Nkosiyane, knows that position, that the whites have no land rights in Basutoland. They a. there merely to assist the Basuto in their civil service. I want to warn you to stop bluffing the people. Be honest and tell the people the right thing. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear, hear. MR . K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members of the House, you have heard the tirade which I would liken to the heat that comes from the house of Hell when the door has been left open. (Laughter) There has been no sense or reasoning in the utterances of the hon. the Chief Minister and I get the impression that he is a very young baby thrown into a big bath full of water and is splashing about, trying to come up to the surface while he is inexorably sinking under the water. But it is a matter of concern for this side of the House that we can have the mentality that has been exhibited by the hon. the Chief Minister in his reply, for he has thrived on untruths, mis-statements and dishonest representations about the people's ideas on this side of the House. He has sought, for instance, to imply that the Leader of the Opposition did not follow the correct channels in applying for a passport. I am compelled to reply to this allegation al though it is a matter affecting me because I am the last speaker on the motion of no confidence .

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Application forms were obtained from the local magistrate, filled in with all the details , submitted to him and a deposit of R3 made locally. The application was submitted to the Department of the Interior of the Transkei and from there to the Department of Bantu Administration and Development, and from there to the Department of the Interior of the Republic. Now it is not my policy at any time..... THE CHIEF MINISTER : There you are - you will see that I am correct. Read here at the bottom of this letter. MR. GUZANA: And who is the writer? THE CHIEF MINISTER : The Secretary of the Department of the Interior. Read it aloud. MR. GUZANA : This is what has been written : "As far as I am aware Mr. Guzana made no representations to the Department of the Interior after his application was refused by the Republican Govemment. I saw no representation and as it is a matter of policy, if it had been made and come before me you would have been apprised of the fact and consulted as to your reaction to his representations. "" I take that "you " to refer to the hon. the Chief Minister?

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Interior. MR. provided applies followed port.

The Minister of the

GUZANA: Now, Sir, if there is a routine for submitting applications a person who follows that routine , and I have strictly that routine in my application for a pass-

THE CHIEF MINISTER : You are a political figure. You should have come to us.

MR . GUZANA: When the application went through the Department of the Interior, the Department had the right to make representations or recommendations on the application , and I take it that the Department of the Interior did make those recommendations , and if the Republican Government said No, then what else could be done? And if I am aware of the facts correctly, the hon. the Chief Minister sought to intervene when a certain African could not obtain a passport to go overseas.

MR. GUZANA: I lose nothing by not going to America. I would have known more about things that would benefit the Transkei if I had gone to America, but you would not like that. You have a mental fear for the man who knows more about things than you. Your inferiority complex sterilizes and paralyses your brain and you will not allow another man to learn more than you know. I regret I have had to speak like this in a matter which concems me and I do not want to place myself first in this matter, but I must tell you what my reaction was to the refusal of a passport. My application was made at a time when relations between South Africa and the United States were strained and the climate was not suitable for the granting of a passport, but I shall not come to you to make representations when I know from my own knowledge that the situation and the time was inappropriate. Now let us leave these matters which are personal and come to matters that concern the people. First of all I must say that this side of the House welcomes the statement on Mr. Ndamse. You will realise that the Opposition, ever since this Ndamse impasse arose, never uttered a single word in the papers. It saw the situation as a delicate one involving the Transkei Government and the Republican Government on matters of policy. It realised that if it commented at an early stage in these matters , Mr. Ndamse might well suffer and negotiations might fail , and this side of the House , when I moved the motion of no confidence, said: Will you give us a statement? We told you what we knew and what we knew was correct and then asked you to make a statement. The matter could have been exploited politically but this responsible side of the House did not do so. You, as the Government, ought to be thankful to the Opposition that it has co-operated by silence and made it possible for you to make such representations as have resulted in the statement you have made today. We had hope that Mr. Ndamse's appointment is not going to be the beginning of another trouble and we hope that further negotiations will ultimately mean that Mr. Ndamse is freed from all restrictions. That is the type of attitude we would like to see more and more with this Government. We want a responsible Government that will make representations on behalf of its citizens and not come to this House and say : Why did you not come to me for your passport? Now, to pass on to a betrayal of what is most cherished by the hon. the Chief Minister and what is his most well guarded secret : The one-party state. This has been his cherished hope ever since this Assembly met in December, 1963. Unfortunately for him the Opposition has continued to exist as a powerful force up to now.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : He came to me and you did not. MR . GUZANA: And those representations were made by him after the application for a passport had been tumed down . His personal representations came to nought. And are you asking me to come to you so that you should fail again, because you accept that you should fail when you make representations? Am I to place the prospect of my going to America in your hands when you have told this House that you accept the position as it stands? Am I going to ask you to go to the Republican Government to ask for the issue of a passport to me when you say that you accept separate development · you accept the status quo; you say nothing else can be given to the African? Am I going to come to you when you are a fatalist - you are a defeatist? Never!

THE America.

CHIEF MINISTER :

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : With the aid of Doubt.

MR . GUZANA : You will no doubt have faith in the mixtures which you use on your face all the time. (Laughter) The hon. the Chief Minister and his satellites have constantly flowing gibes at the Opposition . He has constantly imputed alliances with other organisations to the Opposition . He has gone further and even threatened members of the Opposition and on Friday he told this House that he foresaw a situation where chiefs and their counsellors would legislate for the Transkei. This idea has been going on and building up in the mind of the Chief Minister for the past three years and one gets the impression that he is trying ways and means of stifling and undermining the Opposition , and this is evidenced in various ways, for there is

You will not go to

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no reason why the Opposition members should find difficulty in getting to the electorate under the permit system. How is an elected member of the Legislative Assembly to be useful to his electorate if he has to wait two to three weeks before he can meet his electorate? In effect, what is sought to be conveyed to the electorate is this : The people you have elected are of no benefit to you because they cannot come back to you and report. In other words , the hon. the Chief Minister wants to make the people regard the elected members of the Assembly as worthless, and if they get that impression this Legislative Assembly will revert to the T.T.A. system of chiefs and counsellors discussing matters relating to the Transkei in this Chamber. There does seem to me to be a great hatred for opposition , that he cannot stand to hear the other point of view and that is typical of an autocrat who will rule with an iron hand, and it is a dangerous development in the mentality of the Chief Minister and the members of the Government side. This side of the House will resist that tendency and it will continue to exist so long as it is accorded the rights of an Opposition and, in effect, when the Republican Government provided in the Constitution for elected members, it contemplated that there would be a case where ideas will differ. If what we have been quoted by the hon. the Chief Minister as having been said by some of the members of the Opposition is correct.... GOVERNMENT white.

MEMBER:

It is in black and

S MR. GUZANA: You say it is in black and white. It has to be so if it is anything worth relying upon, because black and white must be together. Now if they said so; if there was unanimity on separate development; if the people of the Transkei through . the members of the Transkeian Territorial Authority asked the Republic to establish a Bantustan, why did the Republican Government concede the election of members to this Legislative Assembly when it knew perfectly well that men must differ in thought and in word and in deed? The simple reason is that the Republican Government realised that although people might say : We want separate development; we want "apartheid" ; we want a Bantu state - there would be those who would say No to them , and therefore it entrenched the democratic right of people to be represented by elected members in this House so that they can speak the mind of the people. And that is what the Opposition is doing here. It is speaking the minds of the electorate and they must continue to do so, if they are going to be true to the electorate , and until the chiefs realise that they also ought to say what the people want they will be away from the wishes and aspirations of their own subjects. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Where do you get that? Have you got any subjects? MR . GUZANA: Have I got any subjects? This is my subject · the motion of no confidence . And let this idea be removed from the mind of the hon. the Chief Minister that the Opposition is a bunch agitators. They are representing the people who are your subjects as a political paramount chief. Why should you call them agitators when they speak the mind of your own people?

THE CHIEF MINISTER : But the chiefs speak the mind of their own people.

MR . GUZANA : If the chiefs speak the minds of the people, why was it necessary to have elected members coming to this House? THE CHIEF MINISTER : It was a convention which existed during the Bunga time. MR. GUZANA : We do not think conventionally. We think with a free , open and independent mind and see the situation for what it is, and these subjects who you say are represented by the chiefs still vote for the elected members who constitute part of this House. Now the same people have therefore in this House two representatives - the chief and the elected member - and what right have you to say that the one set of representatives of the wishes of the people is a bunch of agitators , as against the others, when the chiefs have come to this House because they are chiefs and the elected members come to this House because the subjects of the chiefs have voted for them and have said : Go along and say this, that and the other? Now the question may well be asked : Who is in a better position to represent these subjects · the elected men or the chiefs? THE chiefs .

MINISTER

OF

AGRICULTURE :

The

MR. GUZANA: If we must look at the subject objectively we must concede that the elected member has a duty to his electorate , otherwise if he fails in that duty he will not be re-elected to this House, as against the chief who will come into this House willy-nilly, and therefore there is a greater responsibility upon the shoulders of the elected man. He is a more true representative of the subjects of the chief than the chief himself whose membership is guaranteed by the constitution. In fact, he is representing the chief who went and cast his vote on polling day. I would like to know from the hon. the Chief Minister just as an open secret for whom he voted at the last election . (Laughter) You voted for an elected member. The people did not vote for you, but they voted for Sub-chief George Matanzima; they voted for Mr. Mdledle ; they voted for Mr. Msengana; they voted for Mr. Mfebe. And how often did the chiefs in their area say: Register as voters go to the polls and exercise your vote? In effect they surrendered their representation to the elected members who form the Opposition , and you have the nerve to say they are agitators when you and your chiefs put these members here ! If you agitate against elected members I think you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. THE CHIEF MINISTER: What do you say about the friends of the Communists on the Opposition side?

MR. GUZANA: What about the friends of the Communists ? Who put them there if they are Communists ? Is it not your people who elected them into this House? Did you not vote for them? You cannot have your cake and eat it. Yes, the chiefs do not think their representatives are communists . They do not think they are agitators . It is you alone who thinks so. Those chiefs have a high regard for the representatives of their people and I must wam the Government against this tendency to undermine the representatives of the people, to undermine the elected representatives. The hon . the Chief Minister has claimed that the chiefs are the representatives of the people. If that is so ,

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and if the elected members of this Assembly are so , are the chiefs in this House and the elected members in this House agitators - associates of Communists? The chiefs must accept that because they claim to represent the people and it is the hon. the Chief Minister who tells them that they are associates of Communists. He has told them that they are agitators. Now what? Have the chiefs reacted to this situation? There seems to be a sense of surrender in the minds of the Govemment chiefs to the Minister's psychological and almost deceptive misrepresentation of facts to them. They are mesmerised into submission and hypnotised into silence. Let me open the minds of the chiefs so that they may see the wood for the trees. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : What about those on that side? MR . GUZANA: I have told you that they are the representatives of the people and we on this side of the House do not call them agitators. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: So when they are there, they are representatives of the people. MR . GUZANA: They are representatives of the people and on that side they are representatives of the people and are called Communists by their leader, and are not called Communists by this side. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The Chief Minister was referring to the mention in the newspapers of their Communist friends. MR . GUZANA : That is not an isolated case where the hon. the Chief Minister has imputed Communism to this side. It is pathetic to hear an ex-lawyer saying that a thing like that has been proved. It has not been proved. It is just a statement. THE proved.

MINISTER

OF

JUSTICE :

It has been

MR. GUZANA: It has not. You are in a great hurry to make use of an unproved report - so keen to make use of a situation which appeals to your foul minds. Let me tell the members some of the things that have been said by the hon. the Chief Minister about chiefs. You heard him quote from a paper. THE CHAIRMAN : At this stage, hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , we shall adjourn until 2.15 p.m.

Poto and myself was read to the Institute of Race Relations conference held in Cape Town. You see the colour of the paper in my hand and you will realise that it is the same colour as the paper that the hon. the Chief Minister quoted from. I am going to refer to the contents of this speech to disabuse you of the allegation of dishonesty that has been levelled against Paramount Chief Victor Poto and I want to put it to you that the distorted version of that statement has deliberately been given to you by the hon. the Chief Minister in order to bamboozle you. I read an extract from that address : "The present political involvement of the chiefs and headmen is feared for the perpetuation of chieftainship." In other words, their involvement in politics will undermine the position of chiefs . Now that sentence was interpreted to you as meaning that the chiefs will die and that Paramount Chief Victor Poto is proposing the burial of the chiefs in the Transkei , when , in effect, he is ringing a warning bell to tell the chiefs to beware lest their political involvement should undermine the status and the dignity of the chief. Now the opposite meaning which the hon. the Chief Minister has given to those words really undermines your intelligence. He presumes that you do not read these O papers that you are incapable of understanding these words when you read them for yourselves , and I would recommend that each and every one of you buys this address and reads it for himself and understands what is said in the paper. He went on to quote : " The preservation of the institution of chieftainship will depend upon the willingness of the chief to surrender his prerogative until he ultimately becomes a figurehead to whom the tribe clings sentimentally as a unifying head. " Now when the hon. the Chief Minister quoted from that that sentence he left out the last portion of that sentence. THE MINISTER OF not make any difference.

AGRICULTURE : It does

MR . GUZANA: It makes a difference to an understanding man, but to a stupid fool, it makes no difference . (Laughter) In effect the portion he quoted seems to suggest that Paramount Chief Victor Poto says you surrender everything - you surrender your rights and you become nothing. THE CHIEF MINISTER: means - a figurehead.

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That is just what it

MR. GUZANA: But when you read completely to the end of the sentence it says the chief will enjoy the loyalty of his subjects .

S

The debate was adjourned . THE CHIEF MINISTER : not there.

AFTERNOON SESSION . The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate on the motion of no confidence was resumed. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, hon . paramount chiefs and hon. members, just before adjournment I undertook to put the position clearly to the chiefs as to the attitude taken up by their leader towards them and also to disabuse you of any impression which is derogatory and which might have been created in your minds in relation to Paramount Chief Victor Poto. On the 18th January , 1966, a paper prepared by the hon. Paramount Chief Victor

Where is that? It is

MR. GUZANA: He will be the unifying head of his people. He will embody all that represents the tribe and you will realise therefore that it is not true to allege that Paramount Chief Victor Poto has changed his stand on chieftainship . Now that was on the 18th January, 1966. I want to show you that here there is consistency which is above dishonesty and that there is a dedication on the part of Paramount Chief Victor Poto to the institution of chieftainship which may not be undermined by a dishonest representation of his ideas. What does the Paramount Chief of Emigrant Tembuland say on the 13th April, 1966? (Did you get a fright when I said " Paramount Chief"?) (Laughter) This is what he said: " Though

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15

there might be heterogeneous elements within a tribe, tradition demanded that the chief as father of all be above all differences , whether they be of creed, political affiliation or otherwise, so as to preserve homogeneity in loyalty, respect and support to him." THE tration.

CHIEF

MINISTER :

That is in adminis-

MR. GUZANA : Now where is the difference between Paramount Chief Victor Poto's statement and the statement that comes from the mouth of the hon. the Chief Minister? THE CHIEF MINISTER: There is a big difference. MR. GUZANA: There will be a big difference when people see a mole hill for a mountain . But you are men with understanding and you see that these two men are saying the same thing about chieftainship. They both say that chiefs shall rise above political differences, that they should divorce themselves from political affiliation, the purpose being to keep the tribe, made up of various tribal units, together as one unit with one unifying head the chief. Now how can the indictment against Paramount Chief Victor Poto be supported? If this were in a court of law the prosecutor would withdraw the summons immediately and, further, Paramount Chief Victor Poto would have an action for damages against the hon. the Chief Minister for malicious prosecution. (Laughter) And I bring this indictment to the hon. the Chief Minister and I find him guilty of dishonesty of representation. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Supreme Court of Injustice! MR. GUZANA: I do not stand for injustice . Probably the hon. the Minister of Justice stands for it. My charge is clear. The hon. the Chief Minister has tried to deceive you hon. chiefs and he has repeated Paramount Chief Victor Poto's sentiments three months after Paramount Chief Victor Poto has initiated them in Cape Town. Are we finding him guilty? OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Yes. MR. GUZANA: You will therefore realise that the institution of chieftainship is as much our concem as it is the concern of every citizen of the Transkei, but we do not just talk about it. We do not just blab about it. We do not just make a noise about it, and the practical way we shall preserve the institution of chieftainship is to place chiefs in an upper house of review. THE CHIEF MINISTER: That will be the day! MR . GUZANA: That will be the day, and then he will be above political affiliations which the hon . the Chief Minister wishes him to be. He shall be above all matters that will cause division of allegiance from his subjects. It is what you have said and the Opposition says. This is how you implement what you say and this, if you want to know, is one of the practical ways in which the Opposition will implement its policy . THE CHIEF MINISTER: What policy racialism?

multi-

it at you and say : What policy - separate development? Do you know what you stand for when you speak of separate development? Have you tried to study separate development and its philosophy? You have accused me of being like Mr. Hughes and I told you I was like him because he had beaten the Nationalist candidate in the Transkei , but in effect you were implying and you did say that Mr. Hughes stands for European leadership with African servitude and do I understand you to reject that? Can you honestly say that you reject that policy of the United Party? Does your heart beat warmly to that negation of the United Party policy when you stand almost up to chin deep in the same policy? Have you not a number of times indicated that the United Party has no policy - that it is merely a watered-down policy of the Nationalist Party? And from your own mouth have come words of condemnation against the United Party. If you condemn the adulterated form of apartheid , how can you stand for the concentrated form of apartheid as practised in the Nationalist Camp? THE CHIEF MINISTER: What do you stand for? MR. GUZANA: You wait until I tell you what you stand for, because you do not know. I am going to quote from a speech of the hon. the Prime Minister of the Republic during his participation in the debate of no confidence in Parliament during the week ending 21st January, 1966 - as recently as that. Instead of quoting fossils of statements dating back to the 1950s I am going to quote you a fresh one almost plucked from the lips of the Prime Minister. THE CHIEF MINISTER: We know that on this side.

MR . GUZANA: You may know what he said but you don't understand what it is . Speaking on the expendability of the white man in Rhodesia.... THE CHIEF MINISTER: This is not Rhodesia. MR. GUZANA: Nor is this Qamata. (Laughter) The hon. the Prime Minister of the Republic made this statement: "It must be understood that we (referring to the Government side ) would differ from the constitutional system that the United Party defends...." etc. I leave something out there. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Read it. You are going to take it out of its context. MR. GUZANA: Very well . 66"...and from that which existed between the voters of Rhodesia and Nyassaland and still exists in Rhodesia because their constitution is based on partnership, showed thereby that we, the Government, are prepared to go even further in defence of the white man's rights than they are and were. "" He goes on : "How can we then take up an attitude now of our immediate white neighbours being expendable ? Would we not be aware of all the dangers if the white man's rule were replaced? Would we not be aware of the advantage to South Africa if a solution to this problem could be found in which the white man retained his supremacy? We , who were always the foremost fighters for the supremacy of the white man ? How dare anyone try to impress upon the public of South Africa that we believe such people tobe expendable? "

MR. GUZANA: I repeat that question and throw

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THE

CHIEF MINISTER : Why do you accept

white supremacy?

to the black people O that is all .

MR. GUZANA: Now that is from an exponent of the policy of separate development and the words and the sentiments are the same as the sentiments of the United Party, and these people who form our Government , these people who pretend to bring the emancipation of the African in this Transkei, these people who have no policy of their own have adopted the policy of apartheid, the policy of separate development, the policy which maintains white supremacy....

PARAMOUNT CHIEF interjection )

B. SIGCAU : (Inaudible

MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I did not expect that remark from the hon. Paramount Chief of Qaukeni . I have treated him with the utmost courtesy and I think I deserve it from him. THE CHIEF MINISTER : commenting about it?

Then why

are you

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Not in the Trans-

MR . GUZANA: It is because I respect him so much I do not want to make him uncomfortable .

MR. GUZANA: .... and everyone who utters separate development and pledges allegiance to separate development is in effect saying: I shall maintain white supremacy. Separate development is an implementation of apartheid and the philosophy of apartheid is white supremacy - black servitude. How are you giving freedom, how are you giving realisation to the African in this House?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Now answer the question we asked.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Which House? MR. GUZANA : Is your practical interpretation going to differ from the philosophy that supports apartheid and separate development? (Interjections) THE MINISTER questions.

OF

JUSTICE :

Answer our

MR . GUZANA : Write it down · I have told you.

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Now what is your reply as against that policy which this side of the House advocates · the policy of multi-racialism?

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THE CHIEF MINISTER : It is that the Transkei belongs to the black people.

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MR. GUZANA: A policy which does not entrench anybody's rights over any other person; a policy that concedes that the best man must be in the forefront; a principle which accepts the fact that men are born to be great?

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MR. GUZANA: I ask you these questions and I ask you what your policy is. I am moving a motion of no confidence in the Government and it is the Government which is in the dock..... THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You are in the dock too. MR. GUZANA : .... and we are examining them. They must answer to the questions. If they fail, they stand condemned. Now why pretend to be something else.... THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : May I ask a question?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: If the Nationalist Party and the United Party all believe in white supremacy, how are you going to achieve your policy?

MR. GUZANA: The first step will be to sweep you out. (Interjections) THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are asking for a blank cheque. MR. GUZANA: How I would love a blank cheque with a signature, then I could fill it in for a million dollars. (Laughter) We will sweep you out because you are the impediment. You have given up hope. You are a fatalist.

MR. GUZANA: You may write your question down and submit it. (Laughter) I want to know what your brand of separate development is. Is it some-

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Tell us how you are going to do it.

thing different from what Dr. Verwoerd says it is? In effect you must admit that you are entrenching the superiority of one race and the inferiority of the other race .

MR . GUZANA: You have been told to go round to the kitchen and you are going there with your tail between your legs. You have been sent to the river to fetch water on your head and you are doing it. How low can man sink?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Not in the Transkei. Speak of the Transkei. MR. GUZANA: Here in the Transkei you are the exponent of separate development which entrenches white supremacy . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No · black supremacy in the Transkei, which you do not want.

MR . GUZANA: I have known that the needle is very painful when it is pushed deep into somebody . (Laughter) Let us not be deceived by the Government side. THE CHIEF MINISTER : The Transkei belongs

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Answer the question how are you going to achieve it? MR. GUZANA: I told you to write down your question. You are the impediment, and the second way in which we will achieve our policy is to attain provincial status. (Interjections) Not so long ago we had a distinguished visitor in one of the bays here. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman, you cannot control boys who pretend to be men. We had a distinguished visitor not so long ago · Dr. Strauss , who was

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welcomed to this chamber by the Chairman. In today's issue of the Daily Dispatch he made a statement and he cannot be said to be anti- Republican or anti-separate development. He is a man who has been brought here under the auspices of the South African Foundation. (Interjections) (I shall ask the Sergeant-at-Arms to use his certainly ask assegai where it should be used to make the difference between boys and men. ) This is what Dr. Strauss said: The Transkei Legislative Assembly had impressed him as a provincial government with extended functions. (Laughter) I wish the hon. the Chief Minister, leader of the Government, would have been here because at least as Leader of the Opposition I deserve some respect from you boys. (Interjections) THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Just because we have stopped calling you "boys" this session, you are trying it now. MR. GUZANA: In deference to the hon. Paramount Chief of Qaukeni I shall unreservedly withdraw the word "boy" . Now this is a statement from a man of substance. His mind has the same idea as we have, and great minds think alike. But the Government side cannot see the provinicial status of the Transkei as a realisation of the policy of multi-racialism. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please. MR. GUZANA: We say that the Transkei should be a province of the Republic. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Until when? MR. GUZANA: I do not like people who want to taste the food before it is dished out for them. Wait until I have told you what it is about and then ask. If the Transkei is a province it remains part and parcel of the Republic of South Africa, and just as we have the four provinces which constitute the Republic so shall we have five provinces constituting the Republic. And here you will see , hon . members on the Goverment side , that the Opposition is putting forward a practical implementation of its principle that the Transkei will remain an integral part of the Republic of South Africa. Now it has been alleged from the Government side that this is a diminution of the status of the Transkei, but supposing I were to concede that just for argument, then what is the position ? I do not concede it, but I will concede it to help you along. Before you build a building up , you dig into the ground to lay the foundations, and if there will be a diminution (which I deny) of the powers of this Assembly then it will be because we are going to build a stronger, a bigger and a more dignified edifice than we have at the moment. But I do not concede that it will be a diminution of the powers of this House in any way, for this provincial government of the Transkei with extended functions will enjoy the same status as is enjoyed by the other provinces . And what is representation in the Republican Parliament? Provinces have representation in the Senate. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : But you have been told you cannot go there, black as you are. MR. GUZANA: Provinces have representation in the Legislative Assembly and that is our vision · that is our ideal.

GOVERNMENT MEMBER: When?

MR. GUZANA: Those who have no vision always say When? They do not see beyond their noses because they are concerned with what they can get out of the present situation. GOVERNMENT MEMBER: What is your vision? MR . GUZANA: Do not babble. You had your chance to speak. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : And we were barked at by the barkers on the other side. (Laughter)

MR. GUZANA : Now I put it to you therefore : Do not distort the situation because the provincial status for which we stand is leading to greater things. THE CHIEF MINISTER: After a thousand years. MR . GUZANA: You will be dead after a thousand years, but you are not concerned with the men who will be living in South Africa a thousand years hence. I am concerned about him and not about myself in the present day. (Interjections ) You see , the trouble with you is that you are all materialistic . If you fill your stomach and sleep comfortably, then that is the end of the world as far as you are concerned, but a man who works for the betterment of humanity will agree to make some sacrifices and not reap the fruit for himself, but he will let posterity have the advantage. (Interjections) And questions have been asked as to where the policy of multi-racialism has succeeded. Reference has been made to America, where it is suggested that the negro is frustrated under the yoke of Imperialism. You want to ask the question : Where does Imperialism come in in relation to the United States of America and the negroes in America, since the European got to the United States before the negro got there? THE CHIEF MINISTER: How do you know that? MR. GUZANA: I know it from history. I sometimes wonder whether they did not make a mistake when they conferred a degree on you. (Laughter) So there is no room for arguing that there is multiracialism in the United States, for you associate multi-racialism with the British or the colonialists coming into contact with an aboriginal race. And now you want to know where the policy of multiracialism has succeeded? Can you guess? Won't you guess? Can't you guess? I ask you to guess because your mind does not go outside the Transkei. I think it would have done us a lot of good in this Chamber if you had been offered a scholarship to go to the United States , then probably there might be the possibility of your mind opening up to new ideas and you would come back to enrich the Transkei with new ideas . Now I want to take you to Kenya, if you are able intellectually to go there, (Interjections) where the policy of multi-racialism is being applied. I shall not tire you with something altogether foreign to your mental thinking. I shall just quote a short paragraph. It is stated that "Africanisation was necessary to correct the imbalance in professional and administrative spheres , but most of the posts Africanised were those held by expatriates who went home when their contracts expired. " And listen to this : "The trend now is

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Kenyanisation · Kenyans of all races , all those who identify themselves with the nation and are willing to call Kenya home..." And that is the philosophy of multi-racialism being applied practically in this continent of Africa.

but he will not allow you to get it. (Laughter) I ask you to open your eyes and see things clearly. He tells you the chiefs are the hereditary, democratic leaders of the people in other words , they can trace their lineage back through four or five generations. When a chief is reinstated in the Qumbu district he makes it a condition that a person very far removed from the royal lineage should be made a sub-chief.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : What about the Mau-Mau in Kenya? MR. GUZANA : You speak of the Mau-Mau. I refer you to the 1960 disturbances in Eastern Pondoland. By your system of reasoning you should still be on Ngquza hill . (Laughter) You do not know what it means to migrate with the mind and go forward to new ideas. You are tethered like a horse and you go round and round even if there is no grass to feed on. (Interjections ) Now there is an example of multi-racialism being practised. Speak of MauMau · here is your Ow, Ow ! (Laughter) "The image of Kenya's President Jomo Kenyatta has changed from the Leader to Darkness and Death, as he was called a few short years ago , to that of a wise, just and strong statesman who has set an example to the world in forgiving and forgetting the past and in sacrificially working for the good of all sections of the community." There you see the policy of multi-racialism applied in its fairest, most just form , not the distorted , grotesque image which you create in your minds. We say all races in the Transkei should regard the Transkei as their home , and you who think we give away our land do not realise that in asking others to share, they bring what they allege is theirs to share with all of us. I want the hon. the Chief Minister and the Government members to see things correctly , and here we must tell the hon. the Chief Minister that we do not accept social segregation, as you say we do. Where you got that distortion of multi-racialism from, God knows and probably the Devil too . The hon. the Chief Minister has attacked the hon. Dr. Bala in his speech. Let me remind you gentlemen what the hon. the Chief Minister said as Dr. Bala took his seat after he had spoken. He said : You belong to this side of the House. In effect he says that what Dr. Bala said is in complete accord with what he thinks. A day or two later, probably after he had met his mentors and probably after he had been told how to think and how not to think, he came here to deliver a tirade against Dr. Bala's speech. I want to tell you that your leader is dishonest. He is dishonest under your very noses. He applauds Dr. Bala's speech in one moment and it is the subject of vitriolic criticism the next moment. That is the nature of the leader that you have , and I must warn you that you think this crocodile is fast asleep but you know a crocodile can lie still almost to simulate death, yet its beady eye is on you and here you are, strolling along and coming next to him, almost brushing his back. Woe betide the day he opens his ferocious jaws and drags you under the water! No yelling, no crying from you . And that is what he is doing to you. He points the direction to you towards the west, while he goes to the east. (Laughter) He tells you you must send the Europeans in the Transkei packing, but he sends his son to a European firm of attorneys to be trained as an attorney. You are going to be deceived all along as long as you are willing to be deceived. I want you to wake up and see what he is and one of these days you will find yourselves in the mud and he will be right on top and laughing Ha, ha , ha! Just test him. I would like one of you to aspire to paramountcy and see what his reaction will be. You see, he has used you to get the paramountcy

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THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That was the regional authority, not him. MR. GUZANA: That is the condition that was sent to them. (Interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please.

MR. GUZANA: I want you to realise that whilst he speaks of you as hereditary chiefs , he will create chiefs ... THE CHIEF MINISTER: The people point out the chiefs .

MR. GUZANA: Before the Transkei Constitution came into implementation, because they could trace their lineage right back and then they were recognised by the Government because their lineage supported it. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: And there is one who cannot trace it even a step back. MR. GUZANA : But today you will have them created and the ranks of chiefs are now being adulterated by the introduction of people far removed from the line. That is how the hon. the Chief Minister is preserving chieftainship in the Transkei. Now I shall certainly wind up , and would like to remind the two brothers of what they said in Port Elizabeth, and I want you to listen to that statement of theirs in the context of the speeches of the hon. the Commissioner-General to the Transkeian Territories Civic Association Congress on the occasion of the 50th annual congress held in Umtata. If an original has to be used to support evidence and statement, this is the original , and this is what the CommissionerGeneral said, among other things: "The Transkei Government is aware of the fact that if it intends the Transkei to become what it would most dearly like it to become · a prosperous and well organised society · it will have to avail itself of the services of European officials for a considerable time to come.. " He goes on to say: " We have recently had demands for the removal of European officials from highly technical and responsible civil service posts. Such demands at this juncture of development in the Transkei are highly irresponsible. Only a person into whose political philosophy chaos fits as an ingredient of political advancement can advocate such rash measures at this stage. When one bears in mind that the Communist ideology demands chaos as a seedbed for its noxious weed, you realise how dangerous such talk can be. " In effect the Commissioner-General says that anyone who demands the immediate removal of the European is indeed seeking to establish a chaotic situation.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are misrepresenting what he said. He is talking about the civil service.

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MR. GUZANA: And I am talking about the civil ser-

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vice. And what do these hon . Ministers , the Chief Minister and the Minister of Justice, say in Port Elizabeth in the light of what the CommissionerGeneral has said about Communists here? The hon. the Chief Minister said that the Europeans must have their bags ready packed. (Interjections ) THE CHIEF MINISTER: They are packing now. MR. GUZANA: In effect you want to create a situation where there will be chaos - that Communism will take over- You have been told you are a danger ous man · not a feared man. Do not mistake me. You are dangerous to everybody and here you are in Port Elizabeth demanding that a situation should arise in the Transkei where Communism will thrive. And what does his brother, the hon. the Minister of Justice, say? "We will get them out by hook or by crook. "

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: That is correct, whether you like it or not. MR. GUZANA: By hook or by crook . That is the hon. the Minister of Justice. What is this crook whom we have in the Department of Justice? (Laughter) Where is his hook that he is going to use? I must wam the Government side that it has got dangerous men leading the party, one creating a seedbed for Communism in the Transkei , the other seeking to use any dastardly method to get the Europeans out of the Transkei. Don't say you have not been warned. Don't say you have not been told what is coming. Don't say you have not been warned that your loyalty to that party is in itself aligning itself to a chaotic situation. Now you have been told the truth, but truth is stranger than fiction and people reject the truth just as a sick man will refuse to take helpful medicine. But the truth will stand before you and you will see what your leader stands for. He has told you that when he left Fort Hare he went back to Qam ata to hide himself there and what was his reason? I think he said he did not want to get any money. Now from 1941 until he joined the Bunga, what was he doing? Has he ever told you his life history covering those years? Has he ever told you he was labouring under aggrieved frustration against the white man? That at the time he was regarded as a headman (something which usually annoys him), that during that period he planned - nay, he hatched - nay, he brought into life and being the ten-point programme of the P.A.C. and A.N.C. (Laughter) and those who associated with him during that period are out of the country now.

when you vote on this motion remember these things. There is a word like suicide in English; there is a word like hara-kiri in Japanese. It means one and the same thing. It means when a man takes his own life. Do not take your life by supporting a man whose spots have not changed from what he used to be. You must know that the institution of chieftainship is guaranteed under the policy of the Opposition. (Interjections) You must know that we must look to provincial status for the Transkei from which, as a province of the Republic of South Africa, representatives will go to Parliament. You must know that the policy of multi-racialism is being applied and is succeeding in Kenya, and therefore it is practicable. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Don't try to deceive the people. MR. GUZAN: A I do not seek to deceive you. I am telling you the truth, but he will deceive you. And now I sit down and see you as reasonable men who see the truth. THE SECRETARY : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, the question before the House is a motion by the hon. Mr. K.M. Guzana "That this House has no confidence in the Government" , to which an amendment for the deletion of the words after " House" and the substitution of the words "has full confidence in the Goverment" has been moved by the hon. the Minister of Justice. I will put the amendment. The amendment was carried by 56 votes to 38. The motion as amended was carried by 56 votes to 38.

The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 3rd May, 1966. TUESDAY, 3RD MAY, 1966 . The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m. Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.

ANNOUNCEMENT , THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I have the pleasure to announce that tomorrow at 2.15 p.m. the Minister of Finance will deliver his budget speech.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Shame! MR. GUZANA: And you ask the question: How is it that he is here? Now you know that the leopard never changes its spots, but it can cunningly stalk an animal and silently approach until it springs upon it and kills it. If he tells you he is supporting separate development, remember what his mind was between 1941 and 1945. That is the reason why he, of all people, is fanning the flames of anti-whitism in the African's mind. He took advantage of separate development because it says blacks to one side and whites to the other side, and so his philosophy of the early 1940s fits in snugly and hibemates under separate development. But one day he will come out in his true colours, and once the flame of black nation alism is lighted in the Transkei there is no knowing where it will stop and what people it will burn. It will even consume the black man himself and

QUESTIONS. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman, if I am out of order, you will tell me but I have been asked by the hon. Mr. Dana to put his questions for him.

THE CHAIRMAN: Carry on. QUESTION 6. Mr. G.S. Dana asked the Minister of Education:(a) "Whether the Transkei Government is not in a position to make more generous spending on African Education so that there may be free schooling in the Secondary stage as is the case with Whites? (b) Whether the Minister will make a statement in that regard?

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(c) Whether the Transkei Government has taken or intends to take steps to establish a Technical College in the Transkei? (d) If so whether the Minister will make a statement in that regard. ”

QUESTION 10. Mr. G.S. Dana asked the Minister of the Interior: "(a) How many civil servants there are in the Transkei and (b) of that number how many are (i) Bantu or Africans, (ii) Whites, (iii) Coloureds?

REPLY : (a) The financial implications of free schooling as requested are such that the answer to this question can only be "No " at this stage.

(c) How many Europeans were replaced by Africans in the Transkei Civil Service in 1965? " REPLY : 1

(b) In view of this reply the question falls away. (c) Yes. (d) A speech.

(a), (b) and (c) : All matters relating to civil servants are dealt with by the Public Service Commission which falls under the Department of the Chief Minister, and to whom the question should be directed.

statement will be made in my budget

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QUESTION 7. Mr. H.H. Zibi asked the Minister of Justice: " Will the Minister of Justice make a statement to the House about the workings of his Department in relation to the activities of the Department of Justice for the Republic such statement to reflect on the consultation, if any, between the Department of Justice for the Republic and that of the Transkei in respect of such subjects as bans, banishments and arrests of Transkeian citizens . "

REPLY : No, a statement is not considered necessary. QUESTION 8. Mr. G.S. Dana asked the Chief Minister: (a)"What is the official attitude of the Transkei Government to the assurance from the Prime Minister of the Republic and other members of the Republican Government that Port St. Johns, Matatiele and Umzimkulu will remain white areas and would never be taken by the Transkei? (b) Whether the Minister will make a statement in that regard. 2.9 '

QUESTION 11. Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Education: (a) "What is the status of Mr. C.M. Ndamse in the Transkei Goverment? (b) Is he being paid or not?

12 (c) Where is he stationed? (d) In view of the statement that the Cabinet was meeting to consider his appointment could the House be informed of the results?"

REPLY : In view of the statement made by the hon. the Chief Minister on Monday, 2nd May, 1966, in the House, the question falls away. MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , arising from the reply of the hon. the Minister of Education who, I hope, will not demostrate his inability to answer a straightforward question by telling me to reduce it to writing, it would appear that the statement as given by the hon. the Chief Minister pertaining to the officer concemed does not in any way exonerate the hon. the Minister of Education from giving the status, etc. , in accordance with the reply of the Chief Minister yesterday.

REPLY: (a) The Transkei Govemment accepts the fact that parts of the districts of Matatiele and Port St. Johns and the town and a few farms surrounding Umzimkulu are White areas under the control of the Republic. The Republican Government therefor has the final say whether these White areas are to be included in the Transkei , or not. This Government has, however, made certain representations in connection with the zoning, etc. , of Umzimkulu.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Was the statement too high? MR. RAJUILI: This is a matter for the Minister of Education, so shut up. THE CHIEF MINISTER: You cannot talk like that. MR. RAJUILI: Can the Minister of Education not answer these questions?

(b) Falls away . GOVERNMENT MEMBER: He has replied.

QUESTION 9. Mr. O.O. Mpondo asked the Minister of Education: "In view of the 1964 unanimous decision of the Transkei Legislative Assembly to do away with Bantu Education, is it the policy of your Government to retain this type of education in the Transkei? " REPLY : The Transkei Government has been granted control of Education without any strings attached to it. The Government's approach to Education is therefore a positive one. There is no necessity for us to be against or for any particular education system. We are building our own Transkei an education system .

MR. RAJ UILI We say the reply is not sufficient and does not exonerate him from answering the questions here .

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman, I have nothing to add to what I have said. The hon. the Chief Minister made it very clear yesterday. TRANSKEI FLAG BILL : SECOND READING THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Chairman and hon. members you are all aware of the fact that this Bill was originally introduced by me in this House during

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the last session of this Assembly. In my second reading speech last year I went into detail on the various aspects of the flag- It is therefore not my intention this session to reiterate what I said during the last session other than to give a brief outline of the matter. In my speech I emphasized the importance of a flag in the affairs of a people. I pointed out that the flag is a symbol of our unity as a people and that it reflects our identity as a separate national group within the framework of South Africa. I made it abundantly clear that the flag does not signify independence. The Transkei Constitution makes us citizens of the Transkei and it is therefore incumbent upon us to establish an outward, visible symbol of our separate identity and of our citizenship. There is no intention at all by this Goverment to create the impression that our flag seeks anything more than an outward, visible symbol of our separate national group with a separate identity within the Republic of South Africa. To show that this point of view is very much an accepted practice in other countries of the world, I just want to quote Switzerland as an example. In Switzerland there are 25 different cantons and each

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canton has its own flag signifying its separate existence and identity, but there is one national flag for the whole of Switzerland to which all cantons pay allegiance. In the Republic of South Africa, including the Transkei , our national flag is the flag of the Republic of South Africa and that is the position accepted and appreciated by all the members on this side of the House and the people of the Transkei generally. But there is no reason why each separate national group in South Africa should not have its own separate intemal flag, signifying its separateness within the framework of South Africa. This position is also fully accepted by the Govemment of the Republic of South Africa and that is why provision was made in section 4 of the Transkei Constitution Act, which is an Act adopted by the Republican Parliament itself, for a separate Transkei flag to be flown in the Transkei side by side with the flag of the Republic of South Africa. This should make it

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abundantly clear that by introducing this Flag Bill in this Legislative Assembly, we are not doing something at all about which there is any dispute or which is in any way repugnant to the Govemment and the people of South Africa. We are in effect merely giving effect to the provisions of the Transkei Constitution Act. Anybody who tries to seek other intentions or motives behind the Transkei Flag Bill , or who associates it with independence is either wilfully trying to mislead the people and to sow ill-feeling where none exists, or is grossly ignorant of the true state of affairs . The Transkei Government took the initia tive in this matter and appointed a non-political co-ordinating committee consisting of the Secretaries of my Department and the Department of the Interior and the Chief Clerk of the Legislative Assembly section and paramount chiefs as well as other recognised leaders in the Transkei and members of the Transkei Government Service. The aim of the committee was, inter alia, to consider the views of all

nimously decided by the Assembly that a select committee be appointed, representative of both political parties. The House agreed that the flag issue be held aloof from politics. The select committee unanimously accepted the design of the flag with the colours as a basis for discussion on the whole flag issue. It further decided to refer the proposed flag to the regional authorities of the Transkei who in turn would consult the tribal authorities in their respective regions and give an expression of their views to the Government before this session. It was also decided that members of this House should assist the authorities in launching this flag. The committee felt very strongly that this matter should be kept out of party politics. All the members of the House were agreed on these principles and gave an undertaking that they would uphold them throughout the various stages of the matter. The matter was referred by the Secretary of my Department to the regional and tribal authorities for their views. I can now report that the flag was unanimously accepted by all the regional authorities except for the Dalindyebo and Emboland Regional Authorities, where, however, the majorities were three to one in favour. In the case of the tribal authorities all 126 accepted the flag now before the Assembly, but there was a request from three tribal authorities in the Maluti district for additional symbols to be inserted. One of these wanted a Basuto hat to be incorporated in the design of the flag and two others wanted the Maluti mountain range to be included, but the regional authority concerned accepted the flag as it is - that is, the Regional Authority of Maluti. Mr. Chairman, in view of the undertaking by this House last year to keep this matter above the political battlefield, it has been most surprising to find a press report in the issue of the Daily Dispatch of the 4th April, 1966, to the effect that the Democratic Party had rejected the flag at its congress. Last year in this very House members from both sides of the House harped on the theme that this was a matter to be kept aloof from politics. Surely one can expect even a member of the Opposition to stand firm and not be swayed so easily . We were told by the hon. member for Maluti during the last session of this Assembly, Mr. B.S. Rajuili, that: " We wish to accept the report of the select committee and the spirit in which it has been brought to us and to assure the House of the maintenance of that spirit in keeping a matter like this out of party politics." MR. B.S. RAJUILE I still say that. THE CHIEF MINISTER: He went on to say that the world is looking at us once we say we are going to lift a matter out of politics. The world was looking on indeed, but this time it was the "World" - a Johannesburg newspaper where the hon. member, in a press release on 1st November, 1965, was quoted as saying that the proposed design was not accepted by all Transkeians.

sections and to solicit the co-operation of everybody, including the South African Heraldic Association. Several designs were considered by the committee. These were worked out in close collaboration with the Heraldry Council. It was eventually decided that the Transkei flag shall consist of three horizontal stripes of equal width from top to bottom, coloured ochre- red, white and green. I finally introduced the Flag Bill last year and after deliberation it was una-

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MR RAJUILI: That is correct. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Nobody had said that, of course. The position as we all know is that the parties had agreed on the design and the matter would be referred to the regional authorities and tribal authorities as has since been done. The hon. member also appeared to be objecting to the regional authorities being consulted because he alleged these

consisted mainly of Government appointees and did not represent the people. The House will agree with me that that was a very unfortunate state of affairs . A member, especially a parson, is not expected to say one thing in this House and another outside the House. This statement was the first crack in our resolution to do all in our power to achieve unanimity on this issue. The said hon. member also spoke of a referendum something which was never ever mentioned in this House. Again, on the 11th November, 1965, in the Matatiele Mail the hon. member issued a statement saying, inter alia: "According to the Secretary of the Department of the Chief Minister and Minister of Finance, the Transkei Parliament is reported as having unanimously agreed on the design of flag.'" This statement is misleading. Nobody ever said this from my Department. It was said here in this very House. The hon. member could have inquired from my Department before making such a statement because this was bound to have controversial repercussions. During last year's session the hon. member of the Dalindy ebo region , Mr. K.M. Guzana, accused me of slipping into the old rut of a political feud when I referred to extreme political babies who might be found in theOpposition side and appealed to them to assist the select committee in this matter. The hon. member reiterated his appeal that political affiliations should be forgotten and we should all go out and tell the people about the significance of a flag, and that the people should express their like or dislike of the design of the flag and be told that the flag had been designed with the collaboration of the Heraldry Council. He went on to say: " I think we will forget about those people with political obsessions on all matters that are raised in this House and we should try our very best at all times to keep this matter above the political battlefield. " The Daily Dispatch report I referred to earlier was unbelievable and I hope the Opposition members can explain how this volte face came about (Interjections) because I can hardly believe them to be capable of forsaking their principles to that extent. I sincerely hope that the press reports referred to were not a true reflection of the general approach of the Democratic Party as a whole on the flag issue, for indeed it would be a sad day should the main opposition political party in the Transkei be swayed by such political immaturity and expediency. I once more wish to appeal to the members of this House to raise this matter above their party political affiliations. In view of the report which I have submitted to this House that the country, the whole Transkei , has accepted the flag, let us not now sow seeds of suspicion and create ill-will about a matter such as our flag which should be a symbol of our heritage in the Transkei. Let us demonstrate our responsibility and political maturity by passing this Bill unanimously. Mr. Chairman , I move that this Bill be read a second time. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman, I second. MR. T.H. BUBU: Mr. Chairman, we have listened this morning to the speech of the hon. the Chief Minister in which he has tried skillfully to evade the decisions that were arrived at in this House last session. It would seem that it has been a very systematic evasion. In the first instance I want to say that the flag question was referred, on a recommendation of the then select committee, by this House to the people through the recognised administrative

agencies of the people such as the regional and tribal authorities. I want to say that the emphasis was placed on the people. Now our task today is to ascertain to what extent the people were consulted and their co-operation enlisted in this connection. As I have listened to the report that the hon. the Chief Minister has given, I am convinced that the people have not been consulted on this issue. THE CHIEF MINISTER: How do you know? You are not a tribal authority member. MR. BUBU: In that connection therefore,

Mr.

Chairman , I want to say that our approach to this task of the Flag Bill will be determined by that conviction.

R PSIS

THE CHIEF MINISTER: How do you know the people were not consulted? MR. BUBU: The hon the Chief Minister has put a question to me as to how I know the people were not consulted, as I have no seat on the regional authority. THE CHIEF MINISTER: And the tribal authority. MR. BUBU: And the tribal authority. He seems to forget that I am resident in an area over which there is a regional authority and a tribal authority, and that similarly all the members of this side are living in such areas. He seems also to forget that the regional and tribal authorities are appointed by the people resident in their area and that therefore as such what they say and do is to be derived from the people. I want to repeat that when the Assembly tackled this matter at the last session it said that the matter was to be referred to the people for their information. The Assembly was then hoping that the regional authorities would be used by the Government to ascertain the views of the people on the issue. When the select committee asked the Assembly to accept their recommendations as a basis of discussion it was not implied that this was the end of the discussion of the flag issue. It was really the beginning, and emphasis was laid upon the fact that such beginning was to be at the level of the people represented here. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Where is that? You do not find it here. MR. BUBU: I will read it out here. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, the hon. member seems to be harping on the people. While I do not say that the people should not have been consulted, I would like to point out in the Hansard where this emphasis on the discussions with the people is. MR. BUBU: In the first instance I have to point out that the hon. the Minister of Justice has taken my time for absolutely no reason. That was not a point of order. I shall read that section of the recommendation of the committee which refers to the people. It is on page 311, the fourth paragraph. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That is not a recommendation of the committee. MR. BUBU: It is a directive by way of expatiation of the committee's report.

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THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : There are only three paragraphs to the committee's report. You are wasting our time. MR. BUBU: I will read what it says : "The committee felt that it would be unreasonable for any member to show opposition to it but the members in this House are responsible to the people who should know about it, and that it was the duty of each and every member of this House on both sides to go out to the people and launch this flag and try to show the people how it came about. "

unanimously accepted the proposed design as the basis of discussion and resolved that the matter be referred to all regional authorities to solicit, through tribal and community authorities, the views of the people." That is the directive. (Interjections) OPPOSITION MEMBERS: That doesn't prove that they received it. It doesn't prove that the authorities carried it out. THE CHIEF MINISTER: I tell you that we had replies from the authorities. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Give us the date.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It said " the members' and not "the regional authorities".

ཟླ་

MR. BUBU: I therefore want to show that the emphasis was on the people. Whether the hon. Ministers across the floor like it or not the emphasis was on the people, not only in the Assembly here but in the select committee. From what the hon. the Chief Minister has said this morning it is not clear whether the tribal authorities and the regional authorities consulted the people.

THE

CHIEF

MINISTER :

It is

quite clear.

MR. BUBU: We have evidence on this side that the people were not consulted because, as I have said, we are resident in the areas over which the authorities have jurisdiction. On no day did the authorities invite their residents ....

THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are just obstinate fools · that is all.

MR. BUBU: Mr. Chairman , I want to confine myself to the report that was given by the hon. the Chief Minister in this connection . If the directive was sent in terms of what he has read, did the replies reflect that the people had been consulted? I make bold to say that the people were not consulted. I want further to say that the matter of the flag is a very important question. It cannot just be run through in the House at the speed at which the Government seems to be pushing it. THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is going through today. You do not represent the people at all. You represent people outside the Transkei.

2: THE CHIEF MINISTER: How do you know that? You stick to your shop and do not go out to see what is happening. You do not even go to your chief. MR. BUBU: On no day did the authorities invite their residents to come and discuss this matter and on no day did the regional authorities invite the members of this Assembly specially as such to come and consider the question of the flag. It should be remembered that they were appealed to assist in launching the flag. This now leads me to believe, Mr. Chairman , that no directive was sent round by the Government....

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Where do you get that from? MR. BUBU: ....or. by the authorities to enlist the sympathetic co-operation of the people in this connection, and we can see that the attitude of the Government was calculated not to secure that cooperation. Immediately then , what steps were taken by the Government to make them suspect? We can see that they wanted to steal on the people in trying to get the principle of the flag accepted by the people. We wish to point out that the flag is the flag of the people, not of their representatives . THE CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, the hon. member is accusing my Department of failure to give a directive to the authorities.

MR. BUBU: It is a matter that must arise from the convictions of the people. The approach must not be so rushed, as it evidently has been. I want to quote in this connection what has been said by a very important figure in the political history of the Republic. I will quote it in the language in which he spoke it (Afrikaans) and then give a free translation of it. The hon. General J.B.M. Hertzog, on the occasion of the raising of the flag on the 31st August, 1928, said these words (this is the translation ): " The flag is an act of the people arising from the will of the people, raised on the conviction of the people. " He says nothing, Mr. Chairman, as can be noted, about administrative bodies. To underline what I have said, he says : "A higher authority than this conviction (the conviction of the people) is not to be found anywhere." Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I want to say that having regard to the fact that this flag question has been referred only to the agencies of the people.... THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is a sweeping statement and a distorted one, too. MR. BUBU : ...and that replies have been sent back without going to those people , it cannot be said that the flag has been accepted by the people. As a member from the Qaukeni region I can say that no meeting in the Qaukeni region was held for the people in order to ascertain whether the people knew something about the idea of a flag in the first instance.... THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is a reflection

MR. BUBU : Definitely I am.

on the regional authority. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Will he be satisfied if I read the directive given, in order to stop his nonsense? That is a point of order, Mr. Chairman. He cannot accuse the Department wildly as he is doing. I will read that portion so as to stop his nonsense. "The select committee, after deliberating,

MR . BUBU: ... and also to enable them to have a chance to be educated about the flag. THE CHIEF MINISTER: That was your duty to educate the people instead of opposing the flag.

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MR. BUBU: They were given no chance of accepting or rejecting the flag. We waited many months and nothing was forthcoming. I want to say further that if such meeting had been held we would have been invited and then we would have attended, especially as it had been decided that the matter should be approached from a non-political viewpoint. Unfortunately we were forced, just before coming here to try and obtain the views of the people.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: After your congress where you agitated against the flag. MR. BUBU: The directive in this instance was conspicuous by its absence. At the last few meetings I held I told the people about this question. I explained it to them as impartially as possible . This was in the Qaukeni region. The people rejected it completely. THE

CHIEF MINISTER :

That is

not true .

MR. BUBU: It could only be untrue if you were represented at those meetings. Finally we raised it at the congress . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Politically . MR. BUBU: There was no other way because you had been silent on the matter. Similarly at Nyandeni it was rejected completely. THE CHIEF MINISTER: But the people of Western Pondoland accepted the flag. MR. BUBU: I want to say again that the approach to this question of the flag was suspect. To show that the Government was inclined to work on its own, a select committee meeting has not been held to report on what happened at the meetings.... THE CHIEF MINISTER: The select committee had finished its business. MR. BUBU: ....in spite of the fact that they were invited to come to the Assembly here on this question. CHIEF N. SIBI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to support the second reading of the Transkei Flag Bill as it is written. The question of the flag was discussed in this Assembly last year and we came to a conclusion about it. I say that because at the conclusion a select committee was appointed in this very House and before the expiry of the session we knew definitely what the conclusions of the select committee were. I hope the hon. members on the opposite side of the House are aware that it was their conclusion that the question of the flag be taken to the electorate. That was carried out although I am surprised that the last speaker denies that such a decision was taken. If the electorate in the area that he represents was not called and advised about this flag so that they could give their full opinion about it, I would like to assure this Assembly that in the area from which I come the people were advised and what they said was brought to this House. I am quite sure he heard here that a report of the findings in the Matatiele region and the findings in Mount Fletcher area, which were different from those of the Matatiele region, were also brought to this House. That should assure the hon. member that we in the Maluti region carried out the conclusions of this House as they

were given to us. It may be possible that the speaker does not attend the regional meetings of his area. (Interjections) If he does not attend tribal meetings, then it is easy to see that he does not know what is going on. Can it be true that he is a direct representative of his own people and that when he comes to report he does not know anything of matters which affect his own people? In my own opinion I have doubts about the representation of the last speaker . The hon. member has just quoted a speech by the late General Hertzog. May I ask whether the late General Hertzog was referring to this flag that we are now discussing? (Laughter) I fail to see how he brings in this quotation with reference to what we are discussing today. Mention has also been made of a report from one of the hon. members who comes from Johannesburg about an article he published in the Press . I am not too sure whether he represents people in the work centres in Johannesburg, or whether he represents the people who reside in the Maluti region. We know that in the work centres the people have gone there to find employment and earn money in order to maintain their families . That does not imply that matters affecting the lives of the people here ought to be discussed by them in the work centres. They can merely express their own opinion when a report is brought to them of the findings and conclusions of the people who are in the Territory. On that account I shall not dwell much longer on these press reports. However, may I just say that I do not know of any occasion when this hon. member attended any meeting about the flag. He stayed away and did not influence the people to accept it so that when he comes here he is not giving the opinion of the people. I wonder whether we have all forgotten what it was that we all agreed upon when last we discussed this question of the flag? Did we not agree that the question should be raised above political affiliations? Why is it that in this session it appears that this matter is now being attached to political parties? I stand up to confirm that the people are well aware of this question of the flag, even though the last speaker maintains that the people have not been informed about it. I am quite certain it is true that it is probably he alone who thinks that. It is very evident now that he did not fulfil the work that the people whom he represents in this House asked him to. Mr. Chairman, I am not an eloquent speaker but as far as the question of the flag is concerned, I say that it should be accepted as it stands. Everybody is well aware of the conclusions reached by this House. MR. B.S. RAJ UILI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , when we come to deliberate in matters of national concern like this , I do not expect a demonstration of silly nonsense from some members ofthe Cabinet here. They are well aware that I never become personal as they unfortunately mostly are at least, some of them. (Interjections ) I am born of a lady who comes from the Great House in the Moshesh family. I have been brought up under the tutelage of chieftainship of the highest degree, which we respect. I shall therefore respect the last speaker, being one of the chiefs. I would like the House to understand (particularly some of them) that I have royal blood in my veins. (Laughter) I have that respect for the chiefs and I shall not do what I generally see taking place between some of the sub-chiefs and chiefs in certain regions. We do not do that sort of thing. I nevertheless shall take the opportunity of treating the last speaker as a member of the House and not as the chief of a tribe. As one

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10 L

ཕྲ་

1

of the councillors in his region , he should not take his tribal area to represent the Matatiele district. I will leave it at that, with all respect. I hope the hon. the Chief Minister was listening while the last speaker was speaking because I want to tell him that I deliberately stayed away and did not like to be part of this matter in any way. Despite the many letters that came to me from even the members of the last speaker's area, I did not like to sway the people one way or another in a national matter like this. The hon. the Chief Minister has been making references here, but I still say what I said before. I am no chameleon and I will not change as he and his Government do. There is one thing that I would like to make a public apology for in the press report pertaining to the Secretary of the Department of the Chief Minister, where I said that the design was not unanimously agreed to here. I only came intothe picture after a statement had been released by the Department of the Chief Minister, not before then, and I made so many circulars for my region so that everyone would know what I said, apart from the nefarious statements made by the hon. the Chief Minister here. (Interjections) In our region you find neither the Sons of the Transkei nor the Doubts nor any silly things that happen in your area. You do not find them in Maluti. Now to come to the main point. When the hon. the Chief Minister read his policy speech explaining all these things in connection with the flag, nobody was against it and nor are we against it now. THE CHIEF MINISTER: It was not a policy speech. MR. RAJUILI: Well, whatever speech it was. True enough, you go through the Tembu area and you find girls and boys, young and old, wearing this ochre colour. Nobody is against that. We have at no stage, especially in my region, brought this into the political arena. But when your Department made propaganda to work on the minds of the people in the manner they did, we had to react. You have this immaturity in Government matters. We decided the matter should be lifted out of politics and the moment the House rises you circumvent the people and stab them in the back. This is what your Government is guilty of. THE

CHIEF

MINISTER:

Quote

one thing.

MR. RAJ UILI : I asked the hon. the Chief Minister whether his Cabinet has powers to circumvent the decisions of the House and his reply was in the negative. When he is guilty he wants me to quote. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Quote ! Tell this House what the Department did. MR. RAJUILI: We still feel this matter is so delicate it must not be handled in the irresponsible manner in which the hon. the Chief Minister and his Cabinet want to handle it. Yet now he has changed and in fact if some of us had known that the flag was in the essence in which it is this morning, we would have said: Carry on with it. He has changed completely on this matter this morning. He has told us that the flag is a mere symbol. From what he has said it is just like a tearoom quite different from what flag or a football flag he said last year. In an institution you will find there are many football clubs, perhaps with various colours and so on. He has reduced the flag to that - 79

this morning, while the institution concerned has got a flag that is respected by all. THE CHIEF MINISTER: from your previous attitude.

You are retreating

MR. RAJ UILI : Now he says that the flag of the Republic of South Africa is our flag, and we agree, and this is just a flag that you can have of any description, for any purpose. Why bother the regional authorities or anybody else over this thing? Nobody would have opposed it. We have not opposed it. (Laughter) THE CHIEF MINISTER: But you are retreating

now. MR. RAJUILI : We treated this matter on that level that it was. For instance, the hon. the Chief Minister spoke about it as being a flag under which we shall die and then we felt that if it was that sort of flag the Maluti people wanted a symbol included. Why bother with the Heraldry Association and so on as if this is going to be a flag of a state and it must not be a flag of another state, whereas from what he said this morning it is just nothing. From the remarks of the hon. the Chief Minister this morning I do not know whether we should waste our time, but we must register the feelings of the people if this was to be a flag in the concept in which we received it, which was different from what he said this morning. He talks of the 25 different cantons of Switzerland each having its little flag and therefore he suggests that this is just the same thing. THE CHIEF MINISTER: South Africa had its own flag and it still had the British flag before the Republic.

MR. RAJ UILI: But if this is a flag to which every citizen is expected to give its undivided loyalty, the sentiments and identity of a section of the people in the Transkei apart from the Ngunispeaking people should be included or symbolized to bring about a complete unity in that flag. I still say that. You know the last speaker, my hon. chief, correctly said that we carried out the conclusions of this House that were given to us. He was just speaking the truth, but, Mr. Chairman, the Sesutospeaking of Maluti region felt they had not been included and that is why you get a difference of opinion there. They feel that if we have to respect this flag, if the sentiments of the other sections of the community (ochre and all that) are included in this flag then their sentiments must also be included and then you will acquire that complete unity which you envisage. THE CHIEF MINISTER : The other tribes have no spearate symbol. There is no Tembu colour. MR. RAJUILI : There are only two national groups in the Transkei - Nguni and Sesuto - and all the Transkei people are embraced in these two groups. The only people that have not been recognised, and it appears are not going to be considered, are the Sesuto-speaking people, and they are expected to respect that flag or die below it if need be · unless indeed, as the hon. the Chief Minister said, this flag is a nothing that he has given to this House this morning. But if it is that flag the concept of which some of us have, then the sentiments of the Nguni and Sesuto- speaking people

must be respected .

AFTERNOON SESSION.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : do you say about independence?

What

MR. RAJUILI : Your monkeys in the forest are independent. (Laughter) It is for those reasons we feel you cannot rush a matter like this and that is why I repeat I still stand by every remark that I made that has been quoted here. So we do not say one thing when we are in this House and another when we are outside. THE CHIEF MINISTER : You do, of all people. MR. RAJUILI : The trouble always comes from the Government administration. We agree in here and someone, perhaps one of the loaned Secretaries, makes a statement. I can mention now Mr. Caley making irresponsible statements about various matters outside the House . THE CHIEF MINISTER: You someone who cannot defend himself.

are accusing

MR. RAJUILI: We do not like to nzima flag. We would like to have everyone can respect because some else will be the Chief Minister of

have a Mataa flag which day someone the Transkei

and the people want to respect the flag. I have said the world is watching us and it sees we are not against this thing. You are messing it up - that is the trouble. THE CHIEF MINISTER : You are a political jitterbug. MR. RAJUILI : We should not allow a thing like this to take place. If you want unanimity in this flag so that it will be respected by the peoples of the Transkei it should have the embodiment of the sentiments of the people of the Transkei . That is all I am saying.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are the only person who is saying that. The people of the Transkei have not sent you to come and say that.

MR. RAJUILI : There is no running away from the fact that what took place was just an exchange of correspondence between the regional authorities and the Chief Minister's office in many instances. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : And in Maluti?

MR. RAJUILI : I suppose the same thing happened, but I want to point out again that I deliberately stayed out so that no allegations should be made that I said this or that. Whatever decision the people of Maluti had come to, I would have abided by that. You cannot succeed in bringing about the type of relationship between me and my chief as is happening in some regions , including yours . When I stand here I represent all the eight chiefs in my region as well as the people, unlike you.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before we adjourn I just wish to announce that the debate on the Flag Bill will come to an end at 5 o'clock this afternoon. The debate was adjourned.

- 80

The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate on the second reading of the Transkei Flag Bill was resumed .

MR. H.H. NOLUTSHUNGU : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I rise up to support the Transkei Flag Bill. It disappoints me to find that there are people on the other side who disapprove of this Bill, and among the Opposition there are respectable chiefs who are leaders of the people . Chiefs are expected to preach the truth to the people and to throw the correct light on this question so that the people understand it, but today they are the people who are not speaking the truth on this particular question. In their own local courts they pass judgement on defaulters who do not speak the truth. How dare you expect your own child to speak the truth when you, as a father, are foreign to the truth? It has been mentioned that this proposal came before the House last year and there was unanimity among the members . There was a select committee and that committee also came to unanimity on this question that it should be raised above party politics. That suggestion came not from the Government party but from the Opposition side.

TO

Et

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear, hear.

MR. NOLUTSHUNGU: And because the Government is very considerate they agreed to that suggestion. In the select committee there were members from the Opposition side. After the deliberations of that committee it was decided that the matter should be referred to the electorate....

E 2

SILS

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR . NOLUTSHUNGU: .... so that the people of the Transkei might have full understanding of the implications of their flag. The whole of the Transkei therefore accepted this flag (Interjections ) apart only from those two or three areas which required certain amendments . You have always been singing this tune ever since I came to this House, that there is no confidence in the Government. For almost the whole week we were occupied with that motion. Here is my question : Where is the truth in you if you now deny the matter on which you came to agreement? Some nations , it is said, look at us with disrespect because we as a Government have no symbol of our own , whereas they have their own national symbols. The English have their flag; the Afrikaners also have their flag. How is it that we have not our national flag? Is it because we do not want to be anything in the world? Even youOpposition members don't you lead your people? You do not seem to worry about your own people and have no pride in them because it is your outlook that the Transkei should be made a province . You do not want anything to do with independence. Further, you hoped that you would become members of that Parliament and become watchdogs . This flag has three stripes · ochre-red, indicating that we come from red-ochre people; a white stripe denoting Christianity and then the green colour indicating the green pastures of the Transkei. One of the speakers once said that the Government had nothing to do with Christianity. I wonder what lead that speaker had among his people and whether he required them to go back and remain in serfdom?

of

At Umzimkulu our chiefs and our headmen are not opposed to the Government, and the people are not opposed to this flag because we are leading them towards the truth and we explain fully anything that takes place in this House . We do not expect the electorate to come to us in our homes. We go to them; we speak to them and we explain everything fully and they respect us. There is no talk that there should be no dipping in Umzimkulu. There is no opportunity for that kind of thing. (Interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. NOLUTSHUNGU: One of the members in this House said the people had not been told about this flag question. He is a very respectable member and one for whom I have the highest esteem. He said that the people have never been told about the flag question and he himself had never been to any of the local meetings. He himself was a member; of that select committee and he promised that he would go out and preach about it. Now he says the people have not met. What was his work actually? Why does he not come to finality in this matter instead of going first to the electorate? I now come to the respectable minister of religion , although I regret I do not see him in the House. At one time he agrees and at another time he denies that he has said something. If he had only said what I said, I still hold it is the truth. He went further, however, and in his statement he said there was no representation of the Basuto section in the flag because they originally did not use ochre as a national ointment. However there is a section of Basutos in the Matatiele and Mount Fletcher mountains who still use ochre up to this day and the chiefs and the people of the Maluti region have accepted this flag. This green colour which indicates the green pastures of the Transkei does not in any manner distinguish the Nguni-speaking people from the Sesuto-speaking tribes. Both these sections have green pastures. The Maluti region has accepted this flag. He alone has not accepted it, yet in the name of the Basuto people he says he does not accept it, although he is not a Basuto by any means. He belongs to the Fingo tribe. How does he come to make himself a Basuto? How does he represent this section? This appears to be something that will disgrace you, hon. members, that you do not wish the flag of the Transkei to be accepted and honoured by the people. This is what I ask of you: Lead your people to the truth, to freedom, and let them have a wide view of things. The Leader of the Opposition said yesterday: Let truth be the truth . I also stand to say: Let the truth stand for ever so that when we have agreed on a thing we should not differ.

MR. S.M. SINABA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to put views that differ from most of the members of the House. I stand in support of the flag as it is a flag of the Transkei. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear, hear.

MR. SINABA: My reasons perhaps are well known to most of you and they concern independence , but I definitely differ from most of my colleagues, especially with the Opposition who believe in a provincial status, because in reality we do not want our front-benchers to differ about the promoting of this flag. Their views and aims are not to have a flag at all. In all fairness they know the people

want it and they will have the flag. I for one am not going to dwell on the sentiments of the flag but on the importance of having a flag. To the Transkeian people the flag will be theirs . It will belong to the country and they will have pride in it. At this point I feel I must differ from the remarks of the hon. the Chief Minister when he said he made it clear that the flag does not signify independence. I really feel it does, because I have never on any occasion felt as a citizen that I should have a flag, but the committee, or whoever proposed it and started it, must have had some view in mind of independence. It may be that perhaps , as the hon. the Chief Minister has said, it is a sign showing our separateness of identity, but the whole aim is that we are driving to a certain point where we will feel we can come out with out a flag as an independent race. It may be so, that the Government has no intention at this moment to create the impression that the flag does signify independence , but what will it signify in the future? I want to remind the hon. the Chief Minister that when he was at Natalspruit he addressed a gathering on the design of the flag. He said the Transkei flag will be hoisted side by side with the Republican flag and the time will come when the Republican flag will be dropped and the Transkei flag will be alone. That is where I feel I must support the Flag Bill, and that I understand. The hon. the Chief Minister in his speech spoke about the 25 cantons in Switzerland, each with its own flag, but there is one flag that is the national flag of that country. One may ask now if we hoist our flag side by side with the Republican flag, will our flag be hoisted in the same way in the Republic? Of course it will not. Now the question arises: How long will it be hoisted side by side with the Republican flag? That is the leading question. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Till the 5th May, 1967. (Laughter) MR. SINABA: I would be very pleased about that. I will only wait for the hon. the Chief Minister to announce that, then all the people, even the members of the Opposition, will support the flag. THE

CHIEF MINISTER:

You have

a hope !

MR. SINABA: I just wonder what would happen to this flag if the Opposition members came into power. (Interjections) With those few remarks, Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand whole-heartedly in favour of this Bill, with the hope that as the hon. the Chief Minister said, by the 5th May, 1967, it will be the only flag in the Transkei. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, you will have noticed that all eyes looked at me when I stood up to speak, but I know it had the blessing of my leader, the hon. the Chief Minister and Paramount Chief of Emigrant Tembuland. I have had reason to short-circuit the Whip because of a remark which was wholly misleading on the other side. I want to assure the members of the statement that was made by my hon. colleague, Mr. Bubu, who was impertinent and misleading, when he referred to Eastern Pondoland and said that the Flag Bill had never been discussed in Eastern Pondoland.

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MR. C.S. MDA : To whom was he impertinent? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE :

To the

OPPOSITION

MEMBERS:

Political meetings.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : ....then he added a P.S. that in all those meetings I should convey to the people the message about the flag, which I have done . Well , he says those were political meetings , but who would call a meeting just for that little " doek" which was the flag? We had to call meetings to report back to the people about things, including the flag, and I remember on two occasions I went to the hon. member's shop, found him serving behind the counter, and I particularly asked him to co-operate with me in addressing these meetings and he was very kind and agreeable - to such an extent that he ordered his wife to make me some tea. (Laughter) But I was surprised that the next meeting I invited him to he did not attend, and also the hon. member close to him. I invited him to a very important meeting and he did not attend. All that he did... (Interjections ) I mean we did not spend the whole day discussing the flag. I am not saying anything about this because you stayed away from the meetings , but I want to say that these members for Eastern Pondoland think so little of their Paramount Chief and chiefs and they expect the chief to go to their kraals and ask them to attend meetings . You want a special invitation with letter-heads from the Great Place , but I do not think they are so important. The hon. member, instead of getting the opinion of the people about the flag, travels about 25 miles to Lambasi to intimidate the people there to ask for higher wages. (Interjections ) I asked him what the people at Lambasi said about the flag because, according to my report they would not listen to him because he does not deserve to be listened to. Now, Mr. Chairman , with regard to the flag, as regards the Qaukeni region first of all when the magistrates and the chiefs and the headmen received this directive from head office, I am pleased to say, Mr. Chief Minister, that they were very co-operative . The magistrate called meetings of the chiefs and headmen and they had those flags painted on pieces of paper and they dished out these flags to all the chiefs and headmen. (I notice that one chief has kept his copy. ) The people were very pleased with the design and in my area which is, of course, a very simple area they proceeded to ask me whether we could not make these bigger so that they could make "doeks " of them, and what the Government would charge for them. (Laughter) So that shows the spirit of co-operation and for these members to make such an untruthful statement that these meetings were not called is downright scandalous . To show that these members did not know their duty I was informed by a certain chief that one hon. member, Mr. C.S. Mda , wants to take over, or attempts to take over, some of his administrative duties.

strong-hold and before I went there he had preached poison. I do not know how far he went because he drove away just as we came into the Great Place but the welcome was so great that he never put his foot there again. There we discussed the flag question and the people were very enthusiastic. (Interjections) Mr. Chairman, only to show that I was not really taking my turn in the discussion, I hope you will notice that for the first time I am not exhausting the time allowed to an ordinary member. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. DR. H.P. BALA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, this morning we listened to the statement by the hon. the Chief Minister. It is a thousand pities that he stubbornly refused to reiterate what he said last time on the occassion , because in that statement there were controversial and provocative statements. We wanted to challenge those but the matter was deferred. This time we thought he would be statesmanlike, reasonable and liberal enough to refresh our memories , but he has chosen not to. We see in him now the politician who is only concerned to rush this ideological legislation so that it becomes law before the 30th of this month so that by that time the flag should be shown with the Republican flag. His statement contains thirteen pages, but they are the mere babblings of a dedicated darling a dedicated hireling and an ardent salesman, (Laughter) who is only trying to sell the commodity you call separate development. Now that statement is is only a sample of his delusions and obsessions . I will refer only to two items in that statement. The first one was about the reference to Switzerland. Now Switzerland is not a Fascist country. It is a democracy on western lines and therefore you cannot compare it with South Africa. Furthermore , the canton is merely a province. It is not a ghetto only for the black man, therefore those comparisons are incompatible. You cannot compare the two countries. The canton is an equal partner. Secondly, I just wanted to touch on the fringe of the Bantu authorities system. As you know, it was introduced by the Republican Government and it was amended from time to time and it was modified by the hon. the Chief Minister last year, but I must warn you that the Bantu authorities system is not acceptable to the rank and file - mark you those words ! - because it places the Government appointees at the apex. The Bantu authorities are not the mouthpiece of the rank and file. Much mention has been made of the Republican flag here. That means nothing to the rank and file because the Natives were never informed of its design. They regard it as only a symbol of White supremacy and the oppression of the

MR . C.S. MDA: E.g. ?

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: E.g., the attempt you made to take some of those boys who were at Nyandisweni to the charge office, and it

black man. Even the contemplated Transkei flag means nothing to the rank and file. Like the pass, it is a symbol of oppression. The flag is only a second visible symbol or emblem of oppression

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about those meetings in Eastern Pondoland, and after he had given me a long itinerary of 28 meetings to address....

was the police who were wise enough to tell you you must go back to the chief. So I do not see how we can please these people. You must recognise authority and if the tribal and regional authorities have been consulted I do not know what other bodies you want consulted, because those are the only channels which reach the people in their masses. I have not seen these gentlemen at the Great Place where this matter was discussed at length, and I have not seen them at any other time. The only member I saw once was the veteran member, the hon. Mr. Dana, and when the discussion became hot against them he was very grateful to slink away like a fox. And the hon. Mr. Bubu · I went to his

.

Paramount Chief. Evidently he has taken it upon himself and assumed duties he had no right to , just as most of those members from Eastern Pondoland have done. I had authority from the Paramount Chief of Eastern Pondoland when he wrote to me

IC

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THA

that the kaffir belongs to the ghetto . We are not interested in flags. It is just a piece of material, whether it belongs to the Republic or the Transkei. We are only interested in bread and butter politics. We must stick to the main question. We must talk about work, because there is no work in the Transkei ; we must talk about the appalling poverty; we must talk about the ignorance that we find; we must talk about crime. Those are bread and butter politics. Those appeal to the peasant. After all , South Africa is one country and therefore one flag; and therefore one citizenship; and therefore one man, one vote. Now reference also was made to Christianity. I think they mentioned it in this context - that the white colour denotes Christianity. I do not know whether you can say that Christianity is really meant for the Native, because the Native is polygamous by nature and polygamy is incompatible with Christianity. It only sanctions monogamous unions. One man, one wife for all time. I think Christianity has failed in the world, especially in South Africa here, although that eminent British historian, Dr. Arnold Toynbee, has refuted that statement. He says it has not failed but I think it has failed. You remember in history the future colonists, before the Great Trek, never accepted Dr. van der Kemp because he preached equality betore God. The colonists had their own idea and they said there could be no equality in State or Church. Now we won't stick to Christianity which has been made exclusively for the Whites. It is allembracing and must include everybody, whatever their colour. Why should they drag in Christianity through this Bill, because in South africa there are two religions Christianity, so-called, and the worship of colour. (Interjections) GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Come back to the Flag Bill. DR. BALA: Therefore I must not bring into these shallow arguments of yours the question of Christianity. CHIEF F.S. LUPINDO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, of a truth the last speaker has amused me, especially when he referred to Christianity. Yes, there is a minister of religion over there, but I do not know of what church he is a minister. To pass on, I would request our hon. doctor friend here to make a mixture which will improve their hearing because they do not quite hear as we speak on these matters. We cannot go on saying the same things over and over again because the people know about this question. The hon. the Chief Minister has referred to several replies from the regions that were sent to him. It is said we did not inform the have people, whereas the hon. Mr. Sinaba knows informed them and he himself was present. It sur prises me that one member here said that red ochre is unknown to the Basuto people, whereas I am quite certain that that hon. member knows, because he is close to Basutoland, that as I now speak there are people in sheepskins which are smeared over with red ochre. Say nothing about that red ochre question. Now I will refer to the hon member who says we do not even have a flag. He should go to the Republic because there is a flag of the Republic and that was our flag. (Interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN : Order , please. CHIEF LUPINDO: This Flag Bill was brought before this House last year and it was agreed upon and copies of the flag were sent to us so that we could inform the people about it. I am sorry because

some of these people do not even attend the local meetings. Some met the people for the last time when they were canvassing for votes . Thereafter nothing has been seen of them. They have gone to undertake their personal business. I am only happy that the hon. Mr. Sinaba was the only one who took the trouble, but there is an elected member who has never brought to his people any report of the proceedings in this House. They are not afraid to go and canvass for votes but you are a member of the Church ...

MR. RAJUILI: Have you forgotten that I brought a report back? MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I very much regret the fact that when the hon. the Chief Minister introduced the second reading of the Flag Bill he had again to ride his hobby-horse of authoritativeness and unwillingness to listen to what the people have to say on a matter coming before this House. When this Bill was introduced last year we had a highly emotional and sentimentalized address on the symbolism of the flag, but he will agree that he has allowed his feelings and he has allowed his fear of criticism to bring him down from the clouds to mother earth . Since he is responsible for this Bill one would have expected him to launch it in its second reading free from any party political implications altogether, but since he has brought it down to the arena of party politics we have to discuss it in that arena. Let us look at what happened last year in connection with the Flag Bill. One of the decisions of the select committee on this Bill was to the effect that the committee would not be dissolved but would continue its work until it was able to report to this House in 1966. We therefore received notices this year summoning the committee to meet on the 19th April at 11 a.m. in one of the committee rooms here, presumably to receive the reports of the regional authorities who, in turn , had received the reports of the tribal authorities who, in turn, had canvassed the reaction of the people to the flag. We turned up here at 11 a.m. The hon. the Chief Minister was the chairman of that committee and he was not here , and here a link was broken in the proceedings surrounding the passage of this Bill through the House. THE CHIEF MINISTER : You broke the link at Nyandeni . MR. GUZANA: If the link was broken there, why did you issue the invitation to the committee meeting thereafter? THE CHIEF MINISTER : It was issued before the Nyandeni meeting.. MR. GUZANA: In effect therefore we have not had a report of the select committee which we directed to handle this matter whilst Parliament was adjourned . THE CHIEF MINISTER : The select committee was dissolved last year. You will note I am having another second reading. MR . GUZANA: Select committees do not dissolve that way. They can continue whilst the House has risen.... THE CHIEF MINISTER : It is only the recess committee that continues, not the select committee.

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MR. GUZANA: ....and can continue to do their work until the next session. And now that report has not been brought to this House and it would appear that this House is being denied the knowledge it should have before it can discuss this matter objectively. My object is to drive the point home that the people have not had a say in this matter. The hon. the Chief Minister last year said that it was the duty of each and every member of this House on both sides to go out to the people. This is on page 311 of the Hansard report.

the people. The question is : Did they take the principle of the flag and the flag design to the people? The hon. Mr. C.S. Mda wrote to you a letter on this matter and you never replied . P/CHIEF SIGCAU: I never got it.

S MR. GUZANA: If you never got it then it should have been returned to him. The fact that it was not returned to him by the postal authorities proves that you did receive it .

!!

MR. GUZANA: Now if indeed we had to go to the people and the people are the electorate, do you have their reply to the Bill? THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes. MR. GUZANA: You will notice further that right through the report of the select committee there is nothing to say that the select committee accepts the principle of having a flag for the Transkei and the directions sent to regional authorities and tribal authorities overlook that first step of the acceptance of the principle of a flag. If you were honestly to reveal to this House what happened at the regional authority, this is what would be your report. They would say: We looked at the design and we thought the design was all right. They will never, as sure as I am standing here, report on the principle of the acceptance of a flag.

P/CHIEF SIGCAU : No , not at all.

T

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Why didn't you go to the people? You lock yourself up in your office. He never attended a single meeting during the recess.

MR. GUZANA: I therefore submit, Mr. Chairman and hon. members, that if this Bill goes through we shall be forcing down the throats of the people of the Transkei something on which they have not had a free say.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: You have no people. E You are an ordinary subject of the Town Clerk of Umtata. MR. GUZANA: I have over 60.000 people who voted me into this Assembly and they are my sub- E jects. THE CHIEF MINISTER; You never even went to them. You went in at the back door. MR. GUZANA: I wonder if in Qamata you have the same number of people as voted for me . If we want to keep the spirit of the flag we must hurry slowly. THE CHIEF MINISTER: The spirit is there.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: They accepted the flag and not the principle. That was not necessary. MR. GUZANA: And that is the reason why the select committee has been by-passed and we are not in a position therefore to say that the people of the Transkei accept the flag as a principle.

THE

CHIEF MINISTER:

You told them at

Nyandeni not to accept it. MR. GUZANA: I held three meetings ....

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Only three · in the location?

MR . GUZANA: The flag should not be the SO rallying point of disunity and dissension , and we are not going to agree to bind the people when they have not been sufficiently consulted on the flag. This habit of forcing an issue down the people's throats has the effect of making people discontented and you never know what may happen as a result E of discontent caused because the Government is over-eager to get something through this Assembly. We want to state quite clearly that this side of the House dissociates itself completely from this hurry scurry over the flag issue. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Not all of them. The Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland has made a decision on the flag.

MR. GUZANA: ...after the hon. the Chief Minister had instructed us to go out and bring it to the people. Now, the directive from the Chief Minister's office left that office in October, 1965, and it was only between October and April this year that these regional authorities had to consider this matter, and that was designedly to make it impossible for tribal authorities and the people to consider the principle of a flag in the Transkei.

MR. GUZANA: The Paramount Chief of Wester Pondoland has showed me the minutes of the regional authority meeting at Nyandeni and those minutes bear out exacly what I am saying. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Who was the chairman?

PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU: On a point order, Mr. Chairman, I would like to be enlightened on this. How did the tribal authorities make a decision on this? Did they not get it from the people themselves? MR. GUZANA: I do not mind indulging the hon. Paramount Chief, Mr. Chairman . You must realise, Paramount Chief, that you have in the Qaukeni region about 38 members of the tribal authority as against thousands of people in that area, and the tribal authority should have gone to

MR. GUZANA: They show that the design was put to the regional authority · not the principle of the flag, and you cannot run away from it. No amount of reading the report of the select committee will imply anything other than that. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: He was on the committee. MR. GUZANA : That fact does not necessarily mean that the people accept the principle of the flag.

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THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: What was the purpose of his sitting on the committee then? MR. GUZANA: Obviously with that question from you, the purpose in inviting him to sit on that committee which mooted the flag was to hoodwink him so that the people would accept the design. We have seen through your designs. (Laughter) Obviously the cat is out now and we know that your machinations wear a semblance of innocence when you come to us. We shall henceforth know that what we see with our eyes is not what is happening in your minds. Here is the hon. the Chief Minister: "We appeal to the members to go out and try and launch this flag to the people" . Those are your words. THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are being childish. MR. GUZANA: If I am I am very careful about hurting the feelings of the people whom we represent.

people and have a mandate. When you spoke about the people last year I also endorsed that sentiment and I urged that this matter should be kept above politics , and that we should all go as one man to the people. I never received a single invitation from any members of the Government or from the Government to a meeting where they were going to put the flag to the people. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Your paramount chief was supposed to invite you. MR. GUZANA: But I thought the hon. the Chief Minister would invite me to Qamata to attend a meeting there. (Laughter) We do not support the Flag Bill because the people have not been consulted sufficiently on this issue, and they are the most important judge on whether or not the Transkei should have a flag. THE CHAIRMAN : I shall now call upon the hon. the Chief Minister to reply to the debate.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Ncambedlana people.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I wonder how much reliance can be put on the hon. members across the floor.

MR. GUZANA: The people whom you said we should go to on the flag question. THE CHIEF MINISTER: But you never addressed any meeting.

MR. BUBU: One hundred per cent.

MR. GUZANA: I am telling you that I did. Your own evidence shows that I addressed one at Nyandeni. THE CHIEF MINISTER: That was a caucus meeting of the Pondos. MR. GUZANA: It was a meeting. Do you agree? And there the people, after having had the implications of a flag clearly explained to them, rejected the flag. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Because you induced them to reject it.

MR. GUZANA: How can I induce 1500 to 2000 people? If indeed I was able to induce them that is a compliment, but I find it hard to convince you . I do not know whether you are incapable of understanding what I am saying or whether you are just being obstinate, but I must throw your words back at you and say that you said " to the people " . Has the Government sent the flag issue to the people? Have the members on the Government side taken this matter to the people? GOVERNMENT

MEMBERS :

Yes,

we

did.

MR. GUZANA: What measures did you take? We want to know. You have not held any meetings. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: We have.

MR. GUZANA: If the select committee would have been called we would have had these reports and would have been able to test the veracity or otherwise of those statements . THE CHIEF MINISTER : dissolved last year.

The committee was

MR . GUZANA: You have side-stepped the decision of this Assembly. This is not a game of rugby where you score because you have sidestepped somebody. We must go straight - go to the

THE CHIEF MINISTER : They are so spineless that the whole world must be wondering what their existence is as an Opposition. Here we met last year to consider the question of a Transkei flag in terms of the Transkei Constitution Act. The Bill went through the first and second stages without any controversial issue between both sides of the House and it was decided to appoint a select committee to go into the question of the proposed flag. Now today my hon. friend , the Leader of the Opposition, takes the House as if it were composed of babies. He talks about the consideration of the principle of the flag. For his own information and for the information of most of the stupid supporters on his side , I want to inform him that the principle of the flag was considered by the recess committee of the then Territorial Authority.

this

MR. RAJUILI: They had nothing to do with Assembly. They are two different things.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: That principle was embodied in an Act of Parliament which is the Constitution Act No. 48 of 1963, which has, unfortunately for this side of the House, brought many of the members across the floor to this House . Now the Act provides in section 4 that: "There shall be a Transkeian flag, the design of which shall be approved by the Legislative Assembly and which shall be flown side by side with the National flag of the Republic at the buildings where the Legislative Assembly holds its sessions, at the principal administrative office and all main district offices of the Government of the Transkei , and at such other places in the Transkei as the said Government may determine. " How could we consider a principle when the matter is there in black and white that there shall be a Transkei flag? How could we discuss a principle when the Bill had been tabled, the first reading approved and also the second reading? I am sure the hon. members across the floor will not take offence if I indict them to listening to certain people outside the Transkei because here we met as a committee and we brought a unanimous decision to this House that we accept the

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flag. Why did we accept the design of the flag if we did not accept the principle? Isn't that ridiculous? It is obvious to anybody with even the smallest intelligence that the people who regard themselves in the Opposition benches as being brainy are trying to circumvent the issue and they do not tell even their own supporters the facts. They do not tell their supporters that they do not want the Transkeian Legislative Assembly. They do not want rule by the chiefs; they do not want rule by the headmen; they want the leftists to take charge of the locations in order that they should imbue them with the communistic ideologies which are always haunting their night meetings. It is most surprising that these people should come forward and say the principle of this flag was never discussed if the matter has gone through the second reading and a committee appointed to bring recommendations to this House. I want to tell them why we have not appointed that committee this time. It is because of their intrigues and machinations. Unfortunately for you, on this side of the House you have honest men who keep their word and unfortunately theOpposition is embarrassing to the paramount chiefs and heads of authorities on the Opposition benches. The Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland was a member of the committee which considered the principle of a Transkei flag. He reported to the Territorial Authority and his recommendations were endorsed by the Republican Parliament. Now when this matter was referred to the regional and tribal authorities, it is interesting to note that not only the tribal authorities, not only the headmen, not only the chiefs, but all the magistrates of the Transkei held meetings in connection with this flag. I have the minutes of meetings held by the Libode magistrate together with the people of Nyanda in my office. I also have the minutes of the Port St. John's meeting called by the magistrate and not by the chiefs, mind you . I have the minutes of meetings at Ngqeleni and of all the districts in the Transkei . At those meetings the people had an opportunity to discuss the flag and they all endorsed it . (Interjections) MR. RAJUILI : What year was this? Are you referring to the time of the T. T.A.?

MR. GUZANA: To join you. THE CHIEF MINISTER : They are aware of your movements. They are not going to forsake their nationhood because of people who promised the moon. Now, Mr. Chairman, this is what took place at that congress which was held in the far corner of the bundu. The executive committee was so wise

1

not to bring this congress to Umtata, because no people would attend it. It is interesting to note that not even their strongest supporters in the towns attended that meeting. Only Durban had a delegation of three men and practically all the so-called supporters were conspicuous by their absence. MR. GUZANA: Amongst 3000 people.

1123

THE CHIEF MINISTER : The Pondos were called to Nyandeni by their Paramount Chief to come and discuss administrative matters and when they saw my hon. friend, Mr. Guzana, standing up and talking to them they asked : Whence comes this one? They actually said: We have our own paramount chief M where does this one come from? They knew the decision they had made. Mr. Chairman , it is characteristic of the Opposition members to play these tricks because they know that they have no following. They try to go to the Great Place of the honourable, respected Paramount Chief Victor Poto. I wonder what they will do when he leaves them, because I do not know how an honest old man like him can stick to such people. How can the Leader of the Opposition and his satellites tell this House that the people have not accepted the flag? Whose people are they talking about? I want to put it to them that there are over 900 headmen in the Transkei and those headmen are all ex officio members of the tribal authorities . I want to read the directive which came from my office to those administrative bodies. This is a letter from the Secretary of my Department and I will read it fully in order to show the reasonable members on that side , whom I am sure do not share the views of these obstinate members . This is the letter: "In terms of section 4 of the Transkei Constitution Act of 1963 there shall be a Transkeian flag, the design of which shall be approved by the Legislative Assembly. To give effect to this provision an interim non-political committee was appointed by the Chief Minister, under the chairmanship of the Secretary for Finance , to gather all relevant information and come forward with suggestions . The committee was also given powers to co-opt, which it used in co-opting all the paramount chiefs, the heads of regional authorities and other influential Transkei citizens. After consultation also with the State Herald a flag was designed and a Flag Bill submitted to the Legislative Assembly where it was decided that a select committee be appointed to consider the proposed Flag Bill. The following persons were members of the committee: The Chief Minister, the Minister of Roads and Works, Paramount Chief Botha Sigcau , Chief D.D.P. Ndamase , Mr. T.H. Bubu , Mr. S.C. Mda, Mr. A. Chemane, Mr. S.P. Sigcau, Mr. S.M. Sinaba and Mr. K.M. Guzana. The select committee, after deliberating, unanimously accepted the proposed design as the basis of discussion and resolved that the matter be referred to all regional authorities

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THE CHIEF MINISTER: No , they discussed the select committee's recommendations on the flag during the recess. I have all those minutes in my office, and in addition to that all the tribal authorities in the Nyanda region consulted their people and the regional authority endorsed the decision of the tribal authorities. I would like to see what attitude the Paramount Chief, the custodian of truth, will adopt in this matter. I would like to see the reaction of the other chiefs who are also the custodians of truth. I am talking of the reports of the tribal authority meetings in the Nyanda region which is said to have opposed the flag at a political meeting, which I dispute to be true that the people at that meeting opposed the flag except for steamrolling which took place by wise politicians. The fact of the matter is that the communists are opposed to the existence of the Transkei Government and they have briefed their agents in these Territories even amongst theOpposition benches, and that is the reason why gradually the most intelligent intellectuals amongst the Opposition benches are trying to water down the Transkei Constitution. Unfortunately for them that is bringing a crack within their ranks. You shall not be surprised when

you find the most national-minded people on that side leaving you.

::

3: = HE O

2

:

=

to solicit through tribal and community authorities the views ofthe people. This resolution was accepted by the Legislative Assembly. It should be noted that both political parties are in agreement with the proposed design and that the proposed flag is above politics and has nothing to do with any political decision. It was the wish of the Legislative Assembly that all the people of the Transkei can be afforded the opportunity of sharing in the creation of its flag which, as can be seen from the inclusion in the constitution of the section thereof referred to in paragraph 1 above, is a very important matter. A flag is the symbol of the unity of a people and reflects their identity as a separate national unit. I attach therefore 290 copies of the proposed flag for the information of your authority and for distribution amongst the tribal authorities in your region. The accepted principles of modern flagdesigning have been taken into consideration when the flag was designed and the colours chosen for the flag were chosen because of the following reasons: (a) Ochre-red is no doubt the traditional colour of the Transkei. In this flag it symbolised protection and self-realization ; (b) the white colour in the flag symbolises peace and the coming of Christianity; and (c) the green colour conveys the green fields of the Transkei. For further elucidation of the meaning of the flag and the colours used in its design I attach for the information of your authority a copy of the speech delivered by the Chief Minister at the second reading of the abovementioned Bill. It would be appreciated if you would kindly furnish all tribal and community authorities in your region with copies of the proposed flag and request them to furnish you with their comments before the end of November, 1965. Your authority's comments should reach this office not later than 31st January, 1966, To enable this office to prepare the comments of the people for submission to the Legislative Assembly, however, it would be appreciated if you would forward your authority's views as soon as possible. " Now the hon. member for Maluti has put the blame on the administrative staff of the Transkeian Government and I think after I have read this letter he will have to apologise for his behaviour.

want to be kings now, after being elected by the subjects of the chiefs to come to this Assembly? Why can't you go to the Great Place without being invited? The people who are the subjects of the chiefs are taking note of your actions.. You think that this House was created in order that you must lose your respect for chieftainship and sell the chiefs. You say that no meetings were called. In other words , you say that the headman and the chiefs who gave the report to my office that the people had accepted the flag are telling lies . (Interjections) The people will bring you to judgement one day. In 1968 your hour will come. Now, Mr. Chairman, whatever the attitude of the Opposition is on this issue I want to tell them in the most certain terms that their attitude this afternoon here does not reflect the attitude of the people. We addressed meetings all over the Republic, including the towns, and I am pleased to say that at our congress over eleven big centres were represented · • not the ordinary tribal Pondo who thought he had been called for ordinary administrative matters and to drink beer and eat meat. Our congress meeting was held here in Umtata, right in the capital of the Transkei, and I challenge you not to go to Nyandeni for your congress next time. Come to Umtata and see how many people will attend. You have no following except your shadows. MR. GUZANA: We go to the people.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition says they go to the people. I say he only addressed two meetings at Nyandisweni where he told the people there would never be any zoning of the towns. MR. GUZANA : And at Ncambedlana. You must tell the truth. THE CHIEF MINISTER: How many meetings did you hold at Mqanduli ? Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am sorry that my hon. paramount chief is not here because as a Tembu he would not fall into

5.

this trap. He knows that his people have accepted the flag as is indicated by the reports from Engcobo, Mqanduli and Umtata districts. The same applies to Emboland. All the tribes accepted the flag and made a report to me.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes, you cannot apologise because of your usual conduct of which I need not tell this House.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: design.

MR. RAJUILI: I cannot apologise for 4 (a) and

MR. RAJUILI: It does not warrant it. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Now the submission of the Opposition is that the people have not been sufficiently consulted on this matter. We expected that because of their nonsense in their so-called congress meeting at Nyandeni. We expected them to take this attitude · an attitude which is only the concern of their circle, as having been briefed by certain people outside the Transkei. Their opposition at this stage is not going to affect the issue whatsoever because the people of the Transkei have in fact accepted the flag. They have no following. All the people know that they only speak for themselves and for nobody else. To make things worse for them, none of them attended or addressed meetings during the recess. Some of them want to take the positions of paramount chiefs; they want the paramount chiefs to write to them if there is any matter to be considered. Does it mean that you

They accepted the

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Now I wonder whether these hon. members have no conscience at all. At one time they say one thing; at another time they say another thing. How can we rely on such people? How can the country rely on them? I hope the electorate will take note of the conduct. They are going to go outside this House and deceive the people in the streets. They will distort everything we have said in this House to suit their own ends. Now I appeal to the hon. paramount chiefs and chiefs across the floor to stick to their decisions at home and not be persuaded by these agitators. I have warned the chiefs across the floor that unless they cease to associate themselves with people of this conduct they will find themselves the victims of Doubts and the communist friends of some of the Opposition members . Mr. Chairman, I have already moved that the Flag Bill be read a second time and I hope that the reasonable members across the floor will not divide the country on this issue. They will

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The motion was carried.

expose those men who are being agents of people who are opposed to the independence of the Transkei .

s

House in Committee .

THE CHIEF MINISTER: I have already told these obstinate idiots that the existence of a flag does not mean independence. Before Union the colonial government which had its own representative government, the Republics of Natal, the Free State and the Transvaal had their own flags although in the colonial government the British flag was the national flag even after Union. Up to the passing of the Statute of Westminster the Union flag flew side by side with the flag of Great Britain. Can't you understand a simple thing like that? You go about telling the country that a flag means independence. You cannot tell the people the truth. You distort issues. Even if you should oppose this flag this afternoon, which would be noted by the people as a mark of treachery, the matter will be passed as soon as the Chairman puts it to the House.

THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , I will now put the question that the Bill be read a second time. MR. C.S. MDA: Mr. Chairman, I rise on behalf of the Chief Whip on this side of the House. He has had a summons outside the Chamber and he asked me to convey to you that this side of the House was not going to take any part in the voting on this matter as we were convinced that the principle of the flag was not sufficiently canvassed among the people.

13

MR. GUZANA: Now you are speaking about independence with this flag?

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, unless the Opposition signifies that they are going to oppose these sections I do not feel it is necessary for me to modulate. I wish the hon . the Leader of the Opposition to just signify their attitude. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, we can add no more to what we said when the second reading was before this House because, having indicated that the flag should have reached the people, we cannot speak for the people because we hold that they have not instructed us on the flag. If we should say Yes to a clause or No to a clause, we shall be failing as representatives to interpret what may have been given to us by way of a directive on this matter. So you have, Sir, the very happy position of the Opposition abstaining. That gives you happiness because this side is principled. THE CHIEF MINISTER: In the light of the statement just given by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition I do not feel there is any need for modu lation.

Clauses 1 to 4 of the Bill put and agreed to. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move that the whole Bill be adopted. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I second, Mr. Chairman.

C The motion was carried by 52 votes to nil, the Opposition abstaining.

MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members, I wish to advise the House that the Opposition is abstaining from voting.

The Transkei Flag Bill was read a second time.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the committee stage will be tomorrow morning, Wednesday, 4th May. I just want to announce that as soon as the committee stage of this Bill is finished we shall go on with motions so that the members should prepare those motions. We shall first take Nos. 1 and 2 on the order paper and after that we shall go on with Nos. 38, 39, 8 , 22 and 32. Those are the motions that will receive precedence. They are very important motions. That is the decision of the Business Committee. The

Assembly

adjourned

until

11

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I think the House is adopting a wrong procedure. If the s Opposition does not want to vote they must march out to signify their opposition. If they are here they ! must vote with us. We would like to see them leave the House because they do not belong to the Transkei. MR . B.S. RAJUILI: Probably the hon. the Chief Minister wants to demonstrate his happiness for a flag that is going through wrongly. He is not going to tell anybody here to march out or march in. Anyway, we shall look forward to their putting a "doek" flag on their heads and marching out with happiness. (Laughter)

a.m. on

Wednesday, 4th May, 1966. WEDNESDAY, 4TH MAY, 1966. The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m. Prayers were read . The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. TRANSKEI FLAG BILL : COMMITTEE STAGE.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the House now sits in committee to consider the Flag Bill.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , I shall now put the question before the House on the whole Bill. I shall now put the matter to the vote. I would like to remind the Opposition side and refer them to rule 94 of the duties of the Chairman. It reads thus: When the Chairman has put a motion to the Assembly for its decision he shall first call upon every member who is in favour of the motion to vote by putting up his hand and shall thereafter call upon every member who is against the motion to vote by putting up his hand. As far as I know there is no provision for the members to abstain from voting and if there are any members who want to abstain from voting they can march outside. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Is there a provision for that?

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I want no argument

THE MINISTER OF ROADS: I second. - 88-

on this matter. It is my ruling. Those who do not want to vote will march outside . I am giving you time to do so. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, with due respect to your ruling, we wish to make a special request that in the absence of any provision to the effect that a member must march out if he does not vote, I do not think it will be necessary to make these people go out. They are known to the world, their attitude is known and some of them are old. I am making a special request to the Chairman to leave the matter as it is, although in the rules of parliamentary procedure when people do not want to vote they usually march out. We shall bear that in mind. I am making this special request, I Sir. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Very well. I shall now put the question that the whole Bill be passed by the House.

The whole bill was passed by 54 votes to nil , the Opposition abstaining. House Resumed. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Mr. Chairman , I wish to report that the Transkei Flag Bill has been passed by the committee without amendment. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, the third reading will take place tomorrow morning. CREATION OF SUB-CHIEFTAINSHIP : KENTANI DISTRICT. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move:-

(a) That whereas the Gcaleka Regional " Authority has in terms of sub-section ( 1) of section 45 of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963 (No. 48 of 1963) resolved that a sub-chieftainship be cretaed in respect of administrative areas Nos. 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, 24, 25 and 27 in Kentani district and Headman Gwadana Dondashe be designated subchief over these nine administrative areas (b) And whereas this resolution entails the creation of a new chieftainship in the Transkei (c) Now therefore in the opinion of this Assembly the Government should in terms of subsection (2) of section 45 of Act No. 48 of 1963 consider the advisability : (i) of creating a new sub-chieftainship in Kentani district, for the following administrative areas:-

No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.

14 called 15 called 16 called 17 called 18 called 20 called 24 called 25 called 27 called

Cebe Nxaxo A Takazi A Kobonqaba A Takazi B Ncerana Nqusi Zibunu Zincuka and

tion

Mr. Chairman, this motion arises from a resoluof the Gcaleka regional authority passed

unanimously on the 24th March, 1964. It has been brought to this House in terms of the Transkei Constitution Act which stipulates that chieftainship will be a matter to be determined by the regions accordingto their traditional ways. The Act provides further that the creation of a new chieftainship shall not be confirmed by the State President except after consideration of a recommendation of the Legislative Assembly. That is the reason why this motion has been brought to this Assembly. He adman Gwadana Dondashe is of the royal family of the Xhosa tribe. His father was a younger brother of Sandile. He belongs to the Rarabe sub-tribe , to the Ngqika clan and to the Mbombo sub-clan. Rarabe is of the right-hand house of Kawuta and of Palo and his son is Mlawu . Mlawu's son is Ngqika and Sandile and Dondashe are the sons of the same house. Now it may be put to me as to why this motion is brought by the Chief Minister. I want to explain that this is an administrative matter which has been dealt with by the Department of the Chief Minister. It was submitted to the Cabinet and the Cabinet supported it. When a similar motion came before this House last year it was tabled by another person and not the Chief Minister because it was a personal matter concerning the Chief Minister. It was the late Paramount Chief Zwelidumile Sigcau who made representations for the appointment of sub-chiefs in the area of the Gcaleka Regional Authority. This he did in order to give effect to the accepted principles of traditional leadership which are enshrined in the constitution in the institution of chieftainships . It must be remembered that chieftainships of the Xhosa tribes were to a greater or lesser extent adversely upset by the historical upheavals of the 19th century so that they had to be restored before we could have a more crystallized administration along traditional lines in this , our homeland. In considering this matter it should be borne in mind that the Gcaleka Regional Authority arrived at this decision without a dissenting voice. I think it was so because there were no disputed aspects of the matter. In other words , the proposed elevation of Gwadana Dondashe to chieftainship does not affect any existing chieftainship in the area ofthe Gcaleka regional authority concerned, and there is no other claimant to this proposed chieftainship. The law has made this Assembly the supreme guardian of custom and tradition in the Transkei, hence the bringing here of a matter which is otherwise a domestic affair of the Gcaleka Regional Authority. In summing up, Mr. Chairman, I wish to appeal to the hon. members of this House not to direct this matter into a political arena. I move accordingly.

MR. J.N. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise to second the motion . In the Gcaleka region nobody opposes this measure . MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, this is one of those motions on which no division can be expected in this House. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Why did you make a division last year?

(ii) of recommending that the State President should confirm the designation of Headman Gwadana Dondashe as sub-chief of the said administrative areas ."

MR. GUZANA: This matter has been the subject of investigation by both sides of the House and we have been assured that this comes from the subjects over whom the present headman will be ruling.

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zolar

MR. GUZANA: That is a personal matter and you should not speak about it. It gives this side of the House an opportunity to state quite clearly that it does not quarrel with the institution of chieftainship. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Except that you want to make them puppets. MR. GUZANA: If the procedure is correct we shall always bless these motions as one of the fundamental principles of the Democratic Party is the maintenance of the institution of chieftainship. You have indicated , Sir, that the chiefs of the Xhosa tribe became scattered and their lineage became lost in the strifes of the 19th century, and now the chiefs are being resuscitated not in the 19th century but in the 20th century. A lot of water has passed under the bridge between then and now. Their subjects think differently from the thoughts that they had in the 19th century. The chief is now being recognised in an atomic age. Traditions and customs have tended to be watered down by the influence of western civilisation and the Chief who is being recognised today is not being implanted in a 19th century society, but in a 20th century society which has moved away from what was the norm in the 19th century. It is therefore hoped that these chiefs will be modern chiefs in mind and thought; that they will accord their subjects the democratic rights which are the cry of everybody in this modern world; that these chiefs will rise above political strife and political differences; that they shall stand as a unifying pillar of the tribes over which they will be ruling; and in that context we welcome the elevation of headman Dondashe to the status of sub-chief. The motion was carried unanimously . GRANTING OF FULL INDEPENDENCE TO THE TRANSKEI. MR . S.M. SINABA: Mr. Chairman members of the House, I move:-

and hon.

"That in the opinion of this House the Transkeian Government should consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to grant full independence to the Transkei." Mr. Chairman, on the 18th December last year I had this motion in mind. It arose in one of the gatherings where I was giving my report back from this Assembly. I had been given instructions by my party to go and give a report back and I think all the members of the T.N.I.P. had been given that instruction. This report was a resume of all the work that had been done from December, 1963, to the present time. At the meetings I received much respect and joy from the members and the electorate was keen to hear what had come out of the Assembly. After I had given my explanation , very difficult questions were raised and as a result I was compelled to request that all the members should attend a meeting convened at Ramohlokoana on the 18th and 19th December. I had hoped very sincerely that the leader of my party and other outstanding members of that party were going to be present at that meeting, to give explanations when necessary. At that meeting I heard opinions that came from the people, and some of them were most touching indeed

- things that are not known by our Government. At one village I found that a portion of the area had been set on fire and in that area a member was brought to me who had been totally scorched on one side of his body. They asked : What can we do in a case of this nature which has evidently te not been taken consideration of by the Government? This fire arose from a European trading station and it burnt the whole area and the stock in that te area, their crops and their cattle. On that account I could not give complete answers to these questions D until today. I will leave that matter because I am gla just giving explanations of what happened at the meetings I was instructed by my party to attend. C Each one of these things should have been brought ESIN by a member to this House. MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Which party do you mean by "my party” ? MR. SINABA: The party then.

T.N.I.P. , which was my

SE lab

THE CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, has this motion been seconded? It is Eit the usual thing that before the motion is debated it should be seconded . That is the procedure. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: No, it is not.

MR. RAJ UILI: Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. mover of the motion is perfectly in order.

ho

20

THE CHIEF MINISTER: What about last year?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You second the motion. MR. RAJUILI: We generally debate the motion and then when the mover sits down somebody seconds it. That is the usual procedure.

THE CHAIRMAN: To help the members I shall m ask them to turn to rule 71 of the rules of procedure. h Carry on.

MR. SINABA: We had a very large gathering onts that day and we had hoped and expected that the leaders of our party would also attend the meeting. The people wanted to know what the Government had achieved and what had happened to the aims of the people brought to this House. They also hadis motions of outstanding character and these were received, and this one I am speaking on is one of those motions. We hope that all the members will support it. I feel very proud that of all the members of this Assembly I happen to be the only one who is bringing this motion which was passed at that meeting, especially because in our area it was the first time that we had held a conference of the T.N.I.P. I hope that all the members will communicate with one another and discuss the matter amongst themselves before they rise to support it. For 300 years we have been under the guidance and rule of the Europeans. In all that time nothing has come from them to say that we have now reached the stage where we can run our own affairs. It is on that account that we ask ourselves when the time will come. As we look back into history we have not found any indication that any nation has been subject to the rule of another for as long as 300 years. It is not the idea of the people in Maluti to force the Government, but they feel it should be brought to the mind of the Government. Having discussed this matter fully we would like to know what the Government thinks about it. I am raising

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DE

this particularly because it is reported....

at a certain time in the future, but we want independence.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : What about the 5th May, 1967? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : When? MR. SINABA: At that meeting the people expressed the idea that independence should come into existence on the 5th May , 1967. On that account the region which I represent .... (Interjections ) Mr. Chairman, they are disturbing me. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : essence of Parliament.

That

is the

THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please.

MR. SINABA: We also desire that the electorate be made perfectly clear as to the stand by this Assembly, for the people outside have not yet seen any difference since 1963 up to the present time in the situation of the country. Famine is still rife; disease is prevalent ; oppressive laws are still the same ; and even the laws under which we are now labouring are not made by ourselves but bythe Europeans. Since our party is an independence party, let it be quite clear how far that independence is being pursued. As an independence party we want to know how long we must wait. The Republican Government, after we had raised this motion and made it known, expressed themselves ready to give us independence if we asked for it. A question was directed to Dr. Verwoerd asking him whether he understood that the people in the Transkei now desired independence. His reply was that if they asked for independence it would be granted them. Even during the elections for the European Parliament we were keenly watching to see which way the results would fall and actually this question of independence was raised among them and Dr. Verwoerd and his supporters stated very strongly that they would consider this matter. On that account we ought to say expressly just what is our opinion on the matter. I put it to all the members to be very expressive as to what they think about this motion. What we should do is to consider our electorate and forget everything else . Now the time has come that we should stand for ourselves and represent our own views. Whatever comes out of this House we should then know what the electorate thinks about it. As I stand here I feel no fear whatsoever because many of the members of the Assembly have come to me and said they stand by me on this motion. It is not just because it is their wish - it is because they know what the people outside think about it. As you talk about independence , then you speak about something known to all the people. Some of the members of this House have expressed what they think and even the hon. the Chief Minister has said that we ought to have some extra departments in this Government. We believe we can still go on with this motion even though we may not have all the departments required , for those departments would be created by the people. We will also be assisted by the Republican Government . We must raise the question and the Republican Government will direct the way. The people are waiting expectantly to see what shall come of this from this House because we have given them the promise that we will fight for their rights. I have put this matter in the manner in which I have expressed it here on paper, because I do not want anybody to to have any misconceptions about the time when this should come into existence. What we require is independence , whether it comes now or it comes

MR . SINABA: When we are ready. The sum total therefore of all this is if the hon. the Chief Minister or the Minister of Justice agrees then he must stand to support this motion (Laughter) because anybody can say we want independence. That does not help us much. We believe that we can still go on as we are now going on, but we can go on being an independent people. We are aware that the Republic will continue to give us all the requirements we need, just as they are now giving things to us as their children, for what we have is being borrowed from the Republican Government. Now the time has come that we should be independent. Before I sit down I ask all the members to support this motion. I wish them to demonstrate to the whole world exactly what this House stands for. We have no axe to grind as far as this is concerned. We are not seeking cheap or expensive popularity. We just want independence .

MR . N.C. NOGCANTSI : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I stand up to second the motion. MR. T.N. BUBU : Mr. Chairman and hon . members, I want to move an amendment to the motion. It reads . "That all the words after the word " grant" be deleted and the following words substituted therefor: "All citizens of the Republic their full citizenship rights . " I want to say, Mr. Chairman, that we have given this matter of independence for the Transkei very deep thought and after very much consideration we feel we must indicate our attitude in a manner that is both definite and unmistakeable. We feel that the whole idea of creating separate Bantu states within the geographical borders of South Africa, the country of our birth, is born of a desire to keep the non-white perpetually inferior to their White counterparts . As such this idea is repugnant to us. We regard it as downright insanity on the part of any non-White who accepts this idea of separation. In fact, we feel that such a person is afflicted with tendencies that are both suicidal and sadistic · suicidal , Mr. Chairman , because once he accepts that an area such as the Transkei should be separated from the rest of South Africa, he automatically accepts that limitations should be placed upon himself. He accepts all forms of limitation. Already under the present regime the effects of separation are evident. THE CHIEF MINISTER : What do you say about the motion? Speak to the motion and don't anticipate an opposition to the amendment that has not come yet. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You are worried because the mover said he was sent by the Maluti people and you cannot say anything like that.

MR . BUBU: The urgent need of the African people in South Africa is that they should be granted all forms of human freedom. We feel that this cannot be achieved if we accept the Balkanisation of the country. Already we note that as a result of the granting of self-government to the Transkei the

– 91 -

people have been denied the freedom of movement. They cannot move at will in South Africa as they used to do. Some parts of South Africa have, as a result of the granting of self-government to the Transkei , become foreign to us. THE CHIEF MINISTER: When did that start? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Was it not like that prior to self-government? MR. BUBU: It was not. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Give an example. MR. BUBU: The hon. the Chief Minister wants me to give an example. I will tell him he will get one in the process of what I am saying. We feel that our people should have freedom of access to an open labour market. We have noted that when they have gone out of the Transkei in search of work they have been forced to come back and seek employment within the Transkei . This has been said by the people to us at meetings we have held from time to time. They have been told to go and seek work from Chief Kaiser Matanzima • • • • THE CHIEF MINISTER: That was the policy before sef-government came into effect. MR. BUBU: .... but he is not able to help those people to obtain employment in the Transkei as adequately as is necessary. There is a larger number of people who would like to be working but who are at home. Some of them have come to us as their representatives and asked us to take them to the magistrate to try and facilitate their getting permits in order to move about the country in search of work. We are aware that there are labour bureaux within the Transkei . We are aware that those labour bureaux are doing their best to help the people get employment, but we want to say, and say very emphatically, that whatever they are doing for the people in that regard only touches on the fringes of the problem. We also want to state categorically that before the inception of self- government in the Transkei it was possible for the people to get employmnnt outside the Transkei more adequately than is the case now. We must concede that there was influx control before the inception of self-government but we must say that at the same time the granting of self-government here has tended to intensify the effects of influx control. You will remember for instance that during the last session, last year, we were told that about 108,000 people were enabled to get work outside the Transkei.

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : I shall give you the current figures. MR. BUBU: I shall be glad to get them. It does not matter if he does give them to me, the position will not be changed. The idea of separateness has brought in its train very great disadvantages. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Are you opposed to the motion? MR. BUBU: Take it that last year the figures of those able to get employment were 108,000 . How far does that figure relate to the population in the Transkei? In 1964 it was said to be one and a half million. It means, for instance, that out of one and a half

million people only 108,000 were able to be put into a employment during that year. We consider that is a very small number. It means that in time there will be a very high degree of unemployment in the Transkei. We therefore say that any separation of the Transkei from the Republic, whether it be on a selfgovernment basis or on an independence basis, will mean limitations on the people of the Transkei. That is why we object to the idea of independence. We want access to an open labour market. Once you are not able to work, you will suffer immediately from the the lack of other forms of freedom. You will have no freedom from hunger, no freedom from sickness and therefore how can independence be given to us? If you accept that then you are committing suicide, THE CHIEF MINISTER: What does Nogcantsi say? He is seconding the motion . OPPOSITION MEMBER: We want to know what you say .

MR. BUBU: Further, Mr. Chairman, anybody who accepts a separate Transkei is doing so because he is afflicted with sadistic tendencies. There are some people who want to accept the Transkei as a separate state just because it is said that the African must live in the Transkei and the other races must go away. They say so because they hate the members of the other racial groups .

E THE CHIEF MINISTER : But you have no citizenship in the Republic. MR. BUBU: They want to see them suffer the pain of going, and I call that sadistic, Mr. Chairman. This is because they believe that they have suffered * under the white people for a long time and once they get the political graft that they are free , they want to wreak vengeance on the whites . They seem to forget that they have been hungering for a long time for freedom and who hungers for freedom must ensure that other people get freedom. We

therefore say on this side of the House that we do VI not associate ourselves at all with the idea of independence in the Transkei . We are not accepting the s bluff that comes from the Republic, even if it means i immediate gains. We can see that the hon. Ministers across the floor have accepted this bluff because they are political opportunists. They are not concerned with what happens in the distant future to a the people they lead. They are also very callous in their disregard to the sufferings of the people at the present moment and because they are receiving very : high salaries they do not seem to realise that the other people who are not ministers of state, as they e are, are receiving lower salaries than before. (Inter jections) We regard them as being very selfish, Mr. Chairman. I move accordingly. CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise to support the last speaker and to second the amendment.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to move the following amend ment; That all the words after the word " House" in the original motion be deleted and the following be substituted therefor: "the Transkei is not ripe for independence at this stage" .

- 92 --

THE CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of order,

tobe

bez ce a

Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that the mover of the amendment will take about half an hour on his amendment and in view of the fact that at 2.15 this afternoon the Minister of Finance will deliver his budget speech, I move that this House adjourn until 2.15 this aftemoon.

The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON

SESSION

te

་ར་

21

E

The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. THE CHAIRMAN: Hon paramount chiefs and hon. members, I call upon the hon. the Chief Minister to deliver his budget speech and I shall ask the hon. members to be quiet while the speech is being given. Interjections interfere a great deal. APPROPRIATION BILL : SECOND READING . BUDGET SPEECH, 1966.

Mr. Chairman, I wish to move the second reading of the Appropriation Bill, 1966/67, and at the same time to make the customary budget statement. This Government's object is to get the Transkei's economy functioning on modern lines and, in the shortest space of time, to make the Territory financially self-sufficient. In contrast to the position in many of the emergent African states my Government has realised that a nation's status and prestige does not lie in political power alone but is judged by its economic growth and strength. To initiate and to stimulate such growth in the Transkei the Government itself will obviously have, for a number of years still , to assume the role of the entrepreneur. The cause for the early undoing of many of the new-born African states must be sought in the fact that they misspent and misappropriated their funds and thus ran out of money for essential services. This was due directly to their immature approach to economics. In 1958 Ghana, for instance, obtained her independence from Great Britain with R400,000,000 in her Exchequer. That Govemment apparently dissipated its resources and ignored economic facts. Today that country is governed by the military authorities with no political prestige, pathetically little money in its Treasury and acoording to press reports a population which is worse off than it was before independence. Mr. Chaiman, political independence without economic independence will get us nowhere. Our main goal for the present must be economic growth and viability which in turn is largely dependent upon sound management and a well educated, responsible and incorruptible administration. As I have already said, it is the policy of the Government to initiate and maintain, with public funds , this growth for as long as is necessary but not at the cost of stability. New industries require skilled labour but, as I was at pains to explain in my previous budget speech, this commodity is not so readily available, the whole Republic at present experiencing an acute labour shortage. The danger exists that wages can easily move ahead of productivity and result in a situation where living costs will rise to the serious detriment particularly of the peasants who form the greater

portion of the population. Our plans for development must be drafted along lines which will bring maximum benefits to all sections of the population and I think, Mr. Chairman, that this House will agree when I say that the schemes which my Government has so far promoted will succeed in achieving this object. I think here particularly of the meat processing and deboning factory which will go into full production early this year and which will ensure a fair price and a ready market for even the poorest quality stock. If one considers that one tenth of South Africa's cattle graze in the Transkei I doubt whether anyone can fail to see at a glance the far-reaching benefits this venture must hold for our farming community. From the outset my Government has realised that the first step, but not necessarily the key, to our economic advancement lies, for the present at least, in agriculture and thus the bulk of the Government-provided moneys have so far been directed mainly towards undertakings connected with agricultural development. By teaching our farmers about improved stock breeding, rehabilitation and grazing control and with the assistance of the meat deboning factory and the co-operation of the farmer we hope to develop and exploit a hitherto latent industry which could cause the Transkei to be counted amongst the important meat exporting countries of the world. Our deboning factory is of the most modern in the world and may yet prove to be a most important step in our economic awakening. Secondary industries to process by-products such as bone-meal, gelatine , hides and even footwear must automatically follow in its wake. Having regard to the important role which the co-operative can play in the development of the Transkei agriculture, and bearing in mind that progress in this direction must be speeded up considerably, the Government has decided to take the initiative in starting a vast agricultural co-operative movement the main function of which will be to provide farmers with agricultural credit. Quality seed, fertilizers and insecticides etc. must be provided to farmers throughout the Territory under a Governmentfinanced scheme of which the Minister for Agriculture and Forestry will no doubt provide the House with greater detail in due course. I may mention though that shares in the Co-operative will be sold to members ; that R26,000 has been granted from the Development and Reserve Fund to cover administrative and other costs for the first year and that eventually an estimated R200,000 will be loaned, interest free, to the Co-operative for a working capital. I may mention further that with proper use of fertilizers farmers in the Transkei have been reaping between 30 to 40 bags of mealies per morgen compared tothe 2½ bags to which we have become accustomed through the years. It is hoped also that the Co-operative will streamline the selling procedure for Transkeian wool and that this will about double the price received at present by Transkei farmers for their wool. Mr. Chairman , one can imagine how the national production per head must rise if we can achieve such results throughout the Territory; results which will be felt even in the humblest of homes.

It would perhaps here be appropriate to say that the tea project at Lambasi has now shown beyond all shadow of doubt that the Transkei will become a

major tea producing area. Forestry is expanding apace and now that the ownership of the Vulindlela factory - 93 -—

been transferred to this Government, much attention is being given to the manufacture of wooden products with special attention being given to the mass manufacture of wooden buildings.

has

Mr. Chairman, it is plain to see, from what I have said, that much work is going on behind the scenes, particularly in the agricultural field and that with the solid foundations which are being laid we can look forward to economic growth which , but two

Mr. Chairman, I have tried to explain at some length where our future lies, viz. in economic strength. I have been at pains to explain that for the immediate future we must, for the greater part, concentrate on accomplishing an agricultural- economic explosion as well as intensive educational expansion. In this way a general improvement in the standard of living will go hand in hand with educa tional advancement to lead, in time , to stable com-

1

petitive and therefore, sound industrialisation.

years ago, was thought impossible. However, in the industrial sphere, I regret to say, there is a dearth of skilled labour which is seriously hampering planning. The industries which are already in existence in the Transkei do not as yet demand, to any great extent, the services of mechanics , plumbers, electricians and their likes or architects, engineers or other professional personnel. But tanneries, shoe and textile factories, etc. cannot function without these people and my Government has realised that the economic and particularly the industrial progress which we are so determined to make will always be commensurate to and be limited by the education and training we can give our citizens. To this end the Department of Education is embarking on an extensive educational expansion programme which will entail more high schools, hostels, technical and training colleges.

Mr. Chairman, our economic progress is being planned in a most responsible way, we are developing as fast as our labour resources and know-how permit and we are doing everything possible to ensure that trained people become available as soon as possible. Our new industries demand men with initiative as well as managerial and business acumen ; men with the education and training necessary for them ultimately to take over as entrepreneurs the undertakings now being started by the Government and to start new ones of their own. In establishing the Xhosa Development Corporation the Republican Government has shown its willingness to give every possible assistance in planning and promoting, in all spheres, the Transkei's economic development. Tasks to be performed by the Corporation are, inter alia, to devise methods for the acceleration of our economic growth, to plan or carry out development projects and industrial , business and financial undertakings intended to benefit the Transkei's economy, to encourage and promote tuition in commerce and industry and other fields, to furnish technical assistance and expert advice and guidance and to train our citizens as managers and directors in the industrial and other fields. It is important to note that the Corporation's profits must be ploughed back to be applied exclusively to the promotion of the objects of the Corporation and cannot be paid out to profit-seeking investors in the form of dividends as would be the

Not only is industrialisation being retarded by the serious lack of skilled workers but also departmental works , and in particular the Government's building program, have lagged to such an extent that the Government has reluctantly decided to put practically all but the most minor building works out on tender and to call in private firms of architects, quantity surveyors, engineers, etc. , to do the work for the Department of Roads and Works. Due largely to that department being unable to appoint suitable tradesmen and also to the firm of contractors, which was to erect a large Umtata office block, being unable to fulfil its commitments and, as a result also of overestimation of expendi-

17

by some departments, a substantial surplus is expected to be carried forward from the past financial year and instead of the surplus of R1,805,000 I originally budgeted for, I now expect to close that year with a favourable balance of R4,817,000.

It is plain to see that funds have at no time been a retarding factor in our progress . On the contrary, our revenues , for which we are still so very dependent upon the Republic , have proved more than adequate. This fact should, however, not be the sign for us to indulge in irresponsible spending or for making tax concessions . It would have been presumptuous of me, while the budget can be balanced comfortably, to have asked the Republican Treasury for an additional sum, over and above the fixed statutory sum granted under section 52(1)(c) of the Constitution Act. I estimate that at the end of the current financial year I shall be left with a balance of just over R2 million in the Revenue Fund and just short of that amount in the Development and Reserve Fund. To say the leaxt, our financial position is sound, the exact position at the close of the last financial year being as follows : Surplus at 31st March, 1966, as originally estimated · • • R1,805,000 Plus difference between actual and estimated balance as at 31st March, 1965 R

73,000

Plus savings according to revised estimates of expenditure for 1965/66 ... R 2,767,000

case if so-called "private white enterprise" were involved.

Plus underestimate of Revenue for 1965/66 ... •

As I have said before, prolonged economic progress can only be achieved by the incentive and labour of our own citizens who must share in the benefits to be derived from progressing from economic underdevelopment to full economic viability. In short we must be prepared to study and to work and to strive unceasingly for our advancement which will not come of its own accord.

This leaves a balance which, together with the Republican Government's Grant for 1966/67 of R10,466,000 and R3,433,000 in ordinary revenue, will put the figure available for appropriation this year at R18,716,000.

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I

R 172,000

If the sum I have asked for in the printed Estimates before the Assembly, viz. R16,568,000 , is

3

granted I shall be left at the end of the current i financial year with an estimated favourable balance in the Exchequer of R2,148,000 which will stand us in good stead when heavy expenditure on expansion in the educational field has to be met.

they demand will entail the spending of funds which could perhaps be more advantageously used on bread and butter services. A single fighter aircraft, Mr. Chairman, could cost the Transkei every cent of the revenue derived from its own resources.

I wish to emphasize, Mr. Chairman that, although expenditure for 1966/67 shows a decrease as compared with the previous year, there has been no actual curtailment of services. The reason for the smaller appropriation must be sought, in the first place, in the fact that last year's transfer of R1,000,000 to the Development Fund will not be repeated and there will, therefore, be no appropriation required in this respect under Vote 1. In the second instance, the need for heavy non-recurrent expenditure on additional vehicles , plant and machinery has largely ofE disappeared and from now on expenditure will be 02 limited almost entirely to replacements. Of course , the new machines also require less maintenance.

I submit that the proposed expenditure for the current financial year has been wisely apportioned between the various services and I shall be glad to receive the Assembly's sanction for R16,568,000 to be spent as contemplated in the Estimates I tabled a few days ago.

I thank you , Mr. Chairman members of the Assembly.

THE CHAIRMAN: We shall postpone the debate on the budget speech until tomorrow and will take item 8 on the order paper. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I do not think the hon. members are ready for Motion 8 and while they are preparing, I think we can deal with Motion 10. It is a short bill which I think we can be agreed upon because it was a proposition from certain members on that side about the standing rules of the House.

In view of these cuts in expenditure and having regard to the fact that expenditure for 1965/66 was considerably overestimated, a comparison of last year's appropriation with the amount required for the current year can, without a proper analysis, be very misleading. The Lubisi dam has, for example, a reached a stage where capital expenditure will slow down considerably. On the other hand the amounts required under sub-heads A have had to be increased by nearly half-a-million rand as a result of new

MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, without ascribing any reasons for the request from the Government side, I think this side of the House will agree to disposing of this matter especially after the heavy meal we have had from the hon. the Chief Minister in the budget speech.

appointments of teachers and other personnel and salary increments. Pension concessions made last 10 year and an abnormal increase in the number of beneficiaries have left their mark on the amount of be voted for social services this year.

THE CHAIRMAN : Very well, carry on.

I

Members will observe that the heavy capital expenditure over the last two years has now begun to ease off as we pass through a year of consolidation, E but expenditure on salaries, social benefits and other items of a recurrent nature is climbing steadily. At this stage , Mr. Chairman, our sound financial position warrants no change in taxation but I think the it time has come for me to sound a word of waming for the future. If the citizens of the Transkei are to demand educational facilities, social benefits and a salary structure which are much higher than those enjoyed by our people in the rest of the Republic they cannot reasonably look to the Republican Treasury to finance such services without being prepared to dip a little deeper into their own pockets, and the time may come when Transkeians may be called upon to carry at least a part of the financial burden which continual demands for a higher salary structure in the Government Service, enhanced social pensions, compulsory school attendance, etc. may eventually place upon the Exchequer. I have no doubt, Mr. Chairman, that within reason, our fiscal requirements will always receive the sympathetic consideration of the Republican Government, but, if we are going to move towards luxuries which the Republican Government cannot justify for itself, we may be nearing a stage where serious thought will have to be given to ways and means of augmenting our revenues. Mr. Chairman, I wish to conclude by asking those members of this Assembly, and the public, when making demands upon the Government just to pause and think of the financial implications of whatever they are compaigning for, whether it be a defence force or anything else, and to ask themselves whether the services

and honourable

TRANSKEI STANDING RULES AND ORDERS BILL SECOND READING , THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, you are all aware of the fact that the rules of procedure of this House are contained in Proclamation No. 309 of 1963. This was a step taken by the State President in order to ensure that when the Legislative Assembly met for the first time there would be rules available to govern the proceedings. Last year your committee on standing rules and internal arrangements recommended that the rules of procedure should be amended in certain respects. My Department went into the matter and found that as the present rules of procedure are contained in a proclamation they have the same force as that of an Act of this Assembly. In other words, they can only be amended by an Act of this House . This is considered a cumbersome and unnecessary procedure as it also differs from the procedure in the Republican Parliament of South Africa, where such rules of procedure may be changed by a motion of the House ofAssembly. The object of the Bill before the House is therefore to make it possible for the rules of procedure to be changed by a motion of the House. In order to do this it is nesessary first of all to repeal Proclamation 309 of 1963 , which is what the Bill provides for. We cannot however conduct our business here in an orderly fashion unless we have certain rules of procedure, and therefore the Bill provides for the present rules of procedure to continue in force as if adopted in a motion by this House. When this Act is passed the Assembly will be in a positi on to effect alterations and amendments to the standing rules by ordinary resolution of the House , without reverting to the cumbersome and unnecessary proce-

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dure of passing an Act to amend such rules and regulations. Mr. Chairman, as this is not a contentious matter and I trust it will be unopposed , I now move that the Bill be read a second time.

THE

Assembly. If I understand the hon. the Chief Minister correctly the Act seeks to make the provisions of that Proclamation 309 of 1963 an Act of this Parliament. Now if I understand correctly, whenever you have an Act and you seek to have it amended you will have to put through a bill. Do I understand the hon. the Chief Minister to say that this Act which we seek to pass through will be amended by resolution of this House, or will it require that a bill be prepared to embody these amendments which we may seek to incorporate in the Act? THE CHIEF MINISTER: The position is, Mr. Chairman, that the purpose of this Bill is to repeal the proclamation, but it provides that the same rules will now be regarded as having been adopted by this House but not enacted. MR. GUZANA: By resolution? THE CHIEF MINISTER: By resolution , and therefore the rules can be amended by resolution of this House after this Bill has been passed. MR. GUZANA: With your leave, Mr. Chairman, in effect this Bill repeals the proclamation altogether? THE CHIEF MINISTER: That is correct.

MR. GUZANA: And then this Bill also presupposes that we have by resolution adopted the standing rules of procedure which were in the repealed procla mation?

MINISTER:

Mr.

Chairman,

the

GRANTING OF FULL INDEPENDENCE TO THE TRANSKEI.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I second.

MR . K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I request further elucidation on the procedure which will follow when these rules and regulations are enacted here to become an Act of this

CHIEF

committée stage of this Bill will take place tomorrow moming, Thursday, 5th May.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before I make my comments on the motion by the prodigal son of this side of the House (Laughter) I would like to direct my remarks to the motion which has been surreptitiously introduced into this House by the most dastardly, acrobatic, political measures, thus displaying the amount of political T dishonesty there is on that side of the House. This is a most inconsistent and childish action on the part of the Opposition. A member of the Opposition seconds a motion on independence ; a member of the Opposition moves an amendment to the motion. OPPOSITION MEMBER: That is deomcracy . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Remember that we have senses to perceive and to see through the chicanery which you are trying to practise. You knew very well that there would be no seconder to that motion and therefore it would be out, and in order to introduce your amendment to be discussed in this House by a back door way, you had to depart from your political convictions and support a motion which is not in keeping with your policy.

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MR. GUZANA: Why didn't you support it, because it agrees with your policy? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I am going to tell you why. The position is this: I would not like to waste my time on debating the first amendment to the original motion because it seeks to obtain what is outside the constitution of this House. Before you can seek what you seek to obtain, you must first of all dissolve this House. You must move a motion dissolving this House. You sit in this House, you earn money in this House, and in the end you are too afraid to say you want to dissolve this House. MR. N.C. NOGCANTSI : Discuss your motion.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes, the Bill makes those rules the rules of this House. MR. GUZANA: I would understand it this way if you were to tell us that the Act repeals the proclamation altogether. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Yes. MR. GUZANA: But in the provision of this Bill which will be an Act to repeal that proclamation, the Bill takes it that we have by resolution taken over those standing rules of procedure and by resolution accepted them to be standing rules of procedure of this House. THE CHIEF MINISTER : That's right, and therefore they can be amended by ordinary resolution.

THE CHAIRMAN: I will put the question that the Bill be read a second time.

Agreed to.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I will discuss my amendment when you cease to employ herbalists to kill other people. Even if I were to allow you a little latitude to discuss the motion I would tell you that what you are asking is something you know perfectly well you will never achieve , unless you are talking so that the country should say you were in this House and you did open your mouth and talk. You have been told by the white community in this country that you will never get citizenship throughout the Republic. (Interjections) The Leader of the Opposition, Sir de Villiers Graaff, told you last year in no uncertain terms that if you want one man, one vote, you will get it over their dead bodies. (Interjections) Now you have got to tell the country (because negotiations in this matter will not help) you have got to tell them whether you choose the method of getting it over their dead bodies. That is the only remaining alterative. All other alternatives cannot help. MR. B.S. RAJUILI: That is a political threat for small minds like yours.

The Bill was read a second time.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: In any event, to - 96-

to

"

show you what some of your own jitterbugs said when we were discussing the motion on the granting of self-government to the Transkei , the hon. member for Emboland, Mr. Majeke, said this:... (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. GUZANA: We are tired of these quotations. MR. RAJUILI : We are not in the T.T.A. Now. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Listen. I am showing you how dishonest you are, but you did not dissolve the hon. Mr. Majeke. He is still in this House. (Interjections) They do not want to hear because it is exposing them. He said : " I do not know what else is to be said because there are two roads. One way is that we should to have direct representation. In spite representations we have been told: No, be represented by your own people in Well, we have given that up. "

be allowed of repeated you cannot Parliament.

MR. RAJ UILI : That does not mean he cannot go back to that.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Now, I want this hon. gentleman to tell me what new development he has seen to indicate that representations will ever be successful. 21

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MR. RAJUILI: He will do that. MR. GUZANA: Just talk on the motion. THE CHAIRMAN : Excuse me, hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members, when you make such a terrible noise in the House here you are wasting time because I can adjourn the House.

you must quote documentary evidence . This is what I am quoting now · documentary evidence to show that the people are going to the labour centres more now than before self-government. In 1960 1,359 went to work; in 1961, 1,467; in 1962, 1,342. Now those three years are before the advent of the Transkei Government. In 1963 the figure was 6,523; in 1964, 16,500 ; in 1965, 20,142. Now that should show you. The number in 1965 is more than all those in the three years combined before self-goverment. These people actually went to work and were actually in employment. Returning to the motion by our sometime friend, Mr. Sinaba, he has in the first instance accused the officials of his party of having failed to go to the conference in Maluti. Now I thought that he knew the constitution of his one-time party very well . He convened the conference even before the regional committee had been inaugurated and surely he knows we are high officials and we cannot go running about the countryside. In fact it might interest the members to know that the mover of the motion , Mr. J.Z. Kobo , did not even belong to the Maluti region. I hope my hon. Paramount Chief will look after his people because he is a member of his region. MR. RAJ UILI: He is a member of your party. (Interjections) THE CHIEF MINISTER: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I hope you will give the hon. Member extra time because of the time that the Opposition has taken and the noise they are making which prevents the hon. member from speaking. If you allow this sort of behaviour we can drown their speeches more than they can drown ours. It is clear that the Opposition is adopting tactics of not allowing us to speak on this side. THE CHAIRMAN: I will give him ten minutes .

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: They do not want to hear because it is piercing them. The hon. member continued: "Well , we have given that up. We wish the Government to treat this matter sympathetically. " Now I can tell you we are still consistent and are still asking for what we asked the Republican Government then · self-government. In any event I am not going to waste more time on this amendment. MR.

RAJUILI :

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I hope this had the effect of drilling some sense into some of the barbarians on the other side who were trying to drown my speech. MR. N.C. NOGCANTSI : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, please let the hon. member withdraw the word " barbarians. '

Because you have no facts .

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I would only like to tell my hon. friend, Mr. Bubu, not to keep telling untruths to this House as well as to the country as a whole. They are in the habit of harping on the question that the people of the Transkei since the inception of the Transkei Government are not allowed to go out of the Transkei to the labour centres. The hon. the Minister of the Interior will go at length into this but I just want to quote a few figures to show how the numbers have increased since the coming into being of the Transkei Government. (Interjections ) It does not matter how people go out of the Transkei if they go to the labour centres. In 1960 · and this only refers to people who went to the other labour centres and not to the mines. I hope you will open your mind and stop stuffing it with a lot of rubbish instead of listening. The position is that we have been accused that since the Government started the people have been curtailed from going to work. (Interjections ) Just because you want your lies to be believed by the people you will not speak the truth. We have been telling you that if you want to make any accusations - 97

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I would withdraw if somebody else had proposed that, but not you. MR. NOGCANTSI : If he does not withdraw it he is the best barbarian.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : What about your herbalist friend? The motion moved by the hon. member for Maluti is in connection with the granting of full independence to the Transkei. Now all those who read the papers will recall what a noise was made by the Press when this motion was first published precisely because of the date which it contained, namely, 5th May, 1967. That was the motion which is alleged to have been given to my hon. friend by that conference at Maluti and he made such a noise on the fact that he had to carry out the wishes of the people, but they in their conference did not ask him to water that motion down and he has therefore committed a breach of faith as far as those people he says he is representing are concerned. In the motion we do not see the 5th May, 1967, and the reason he gives for that is a most peurile reason, Mr. Chairman and hon. mem-

bers. He says he does not care when the complete independence is granted to the Transkei. All he wants is that we must talk about independence. Mr. Chairman , we are responsible and reasonable men in this House. We do not just come here in order to talk about something. We want to talk about things of which we are sure we can carry out. (Interjections) You do not care because your policy is for provincial status for the Transkei, not independence, so this does not concern you. Now I would like to ask the hon. member whether in his Maluti conference they ever considered the implications of the granting of full independence to the Transkei. He having been a member of this side of the House knows very well the planning which is being undertaken by the Government of the Transkei. There is a great mistake which is being made by all those who would be supporters of complete independence , of saying that the Republican Government will assist us financially even if we are completely independent. We on this side of the House do not want to live in a false paradise, nor do we want to turn wishful thinking into reality. You know pretty well that when we were granted self-government in the Transkei it was done peacefully with the Republican Government on the understanding that we should be helped along until we are in a position to ask for and obtain full independence . Supposing we today were to agree on that motion and the Republican Government were in turn to say: Yes, we grant you full independence but will not give you any financial assistance; we will withdraw all our seconded officials · what would happen to the Transkei? I tell you you are living in a fool's paradise and in wishful thinking which you wish to convert into reality. I want you to reply when you stand up and tell the country what you would do if the Government of the Republic said they will let us have full independence. You have been told that at present the Transkei Government is engaged on wide agricultural planning. You have been told about the de-boning factory which is about to be brought into fruition... MR. NOGCANTSI: been told that.

Minister of Agriculture to know that I learned my politics not from Mr. Ahrenstein, but at school. He has a tendency of always associating me with Ahrenstein and Doubt and Vigne · people I have never seen in my life . (Interjections ) First and foremost let us understand that there is a big difference between independence and freedom, and when they talk of independence they are not only deceiving the country, they are actually seeking to augment their own purses. They know that if we were to be independent, just as the hon. the Minister of Justice was saying, what would happen in Ghana and the Congo would happen in the Transkei. It is very, very clear that without the assistance of the whites in this country our life would be that of bloodshed. If I were a man from Qamata I would have been hanged long ago had it not been for the Europeans because always, in the African mind, when he gets to power all he wants to do is to oppress and crush the will of those who are under him. That is a fact. So when we move this amendment, which I am

coffee which is being grown at Lambasi. It must be clear to this House that unless we want the same thing that happened in the North African states and in the Congo, we cannot ask for full independence yet. We do not want chaos and confusion in the Transkei.

70

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Which we told you you won't have. &D MR. DIKO: Now the hon. the Minister of Justice has just interjected that we will not have that.

TER THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You have been told that.

EDI MR. DIKO: When you were at Fort Hare you were the biggest supporter of the ten-point programme. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I was not at Fort Hare with you.

&D MR. DIKO: We were together at Lovedale . What you are actually admitting now is that you are a defeatist. You must give up your former aspirations just because Sir de Villiers Graaff says "over our dead bodies" . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It is all of them who say that.

MR. DIKO: So what we wish to emphasize and impress in this "pondokkie", the Transkei , is that if the White officials of the Republican Government are honest in their statement that they want to free you some other day, why not pay you now the salaries that are paid to the other human beings in the Republic? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : What I would like you to tell us, you not being a defeatist, is that you will get that by revolution.

MR. NOGCANTSI : You want oppression instead. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Perhaps the hon. members on the other side want that because they even planned to kill other people. It shows their hearts are sore because there has been no blood shed in the Transkei. They would like that situation to obtain in the Transkei. MR. C. DIKO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to support the amendment moved by the hon. Mr. Bubu. I wish for a moment that all the members of the House should take me as having been sent by the Almighty to be an eye-opener to these political babies, and I wish the hon. the

E

supporting, the purpose is to make it very clear to the members that the basic need of the people of the Transkei is human rights.

For three years we have

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Yes, for three years , because we do not want things to grow up like mushrooms, as you grew up politically. You have also been told about the tea which is being grown at Lambasi. You have been told about the

I

MR. DIKO: Now what is the excuse for a European inspector of schools to be paid R500 a month when an African is paid just R100? What is the excuse? We pay the same money in so far as.... THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: That is not the motion. Keep to the motion. MR. DIKO: The motion seeks citizenship in the Republic and that means when I am a citizen I will enjoy the freedom enjoyed by the citizens of the Republic.

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THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Will you get it

by revolution? MR. DIKO: The Europeans in this country would have long given us the rights we are seeking if it were not for the unfortunate defeatists who are pleased to stifle the rights of other people in this country by clinging to the policy of separate development. In this very House there was never a stage in the last three years where we demanded with one voice any rights from the Europeans. (Interjections) You in this House have never at any stage combined yourselves with us and demanded from the Europeans any rights.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It is not a political association. MR. DIKO: This House was created so that the aspirations of the people of the Transkei could be granted by the Republican Government, so this ideology of separate development means that you are prepared to accept White supremacy . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : There is no White supremacy in the Transkei. (Interjections) MR. DIKO: There is. Now what is the use of howling when you know that just as you are sitting there you are stooges of the Secretaries. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : No!

MR. DIKO: Right now, in spite of the Immorality Act there are babies who are coloured. Where are they coming from? So what I want people to understand is that while we on this side are not interested in marrying Europeans, it is the White gentlemen who cohabit with the African ladies. The important thing is this: Let us clamour, let us ask from the Republican Government that while we are humbly and respectfully continuing with this "pondokkie" and with this Assembly the ultimate aim and the sincere request of the African people in the Transkei and in the rest of the Republic is that we must be given food; we must be given security; we must be given protection. Now because of the hon. gentlemen on the Government side the Transkei has turned into a police state, where every corner the citizens of the Transkei are afraid to speak their minds to each other; where Africans are afraid even to give vent to their thoughts. There are a few hon. Ministers on the other hand who are prepared to continue to try to intimidate the Opposition by calling them friends of the Communists, friends of the Liberals. (Interjections) In actual fact when you say that, you know that Communism has been banned in this country, so you are actually attempting to try and blackmail these people. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : They have blackmailed themselves by going about with Communists.

E MR. DIKO: You plan nothing and the statements prepared have not been prepared by you.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No statement anywhere is prepared by any Minister. MR. DIKO: Isn't the Minister ashamed to say in this House that the money we have in the Transkei is not enough to buy even one aeroplane? So why should you ever think of the time in the future when you will ever have independence granted to you? Dr. Verwoerd, the Prime Minister of the Republic , said when he started these "pondokkies", these Bantustans , that he was prepared to give R30,000,000 for a start and should we need it he would give even more, but now you boys of the Republican Government come here and have actually reduced even that that was given to us last year. (Interjections)

MR . DIKO: We must stop quibbling about politics, about which we know nothing and we must combine, gentlemen of the Government side, and work together for the betterment of the living conditions of the people of the Transkei. The hon. the Minister of Justice has just told us that about 20,000 people were able to get employment in 1965 in the Republic, as against 1,400 in 1960, but he has deliberately omitted to tell us that ever since the inception of this Government they have created labour bureaux which take Africans on contract. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Do you know that labour bureaux were created by an Act in 1945? MR. DIKO: So these people must go on contract and must stay there whether they like it or not for at least six months. Before that a man who was in employment would write to his brother and tell him that there was work available and he could

THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , I am going to use my powers now. Some of you will be disappointed but I cannot tolerate this noise. Carry on.

go and take up that employment. I know people in Tabankulu district who have had letters inviting them to work in Johannesburg and Cape Town, but could not get permits from the magistrate's office , because they must have permits. (Interjections)

MR. DIKO: Now here is a point I want to drive home into the minds of the political babies. In life there is always evolution.

So what we want is that people must be free to seek for work and get it where they can. Now the hon. the Minister of Justice has not told us how many people are employed in the Transkei.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: There is revolution, which you want. MR. DIKO: And there is evolution. Now it was God's desire that Europeans should migrate from Europe and Africans from Central Africa and they met at the Fish River. Now human intellect was not the cause of that. It was God's plan. So whether we like it or not it is God's plan that White and Black must live together in South Africa. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : And marry one another?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I was replying to a pertinent accusation from a member from Qaukeni. MR. DIKO: You talk of agricultural development, of tea-planting, of the de-boning factory, of cottongrowing, etc. , but have you forgotten that the Transkei at the moment is definitely not suitable for agriculture? You forget that the hon. the Minister of Agriculture when he came into power promised that from now on we would never have occasion to starve.

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1

TRANSKEI STANDING RULES AND ORDERS BILL COMMITTEE STAGE.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Provided that you followed his advice. MR. DIKO: He said that in Tabankulu. Now for years since you came into power the Almighty God has made it dry, (Laughter) so your position in power is a curse on the whole Transkei.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move that the House now resolves itself into committee in order to consider the Transkei Standing Rules and Orders Bill, 1966. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : May I tell you why? It is because you as a Minister of religion have ceased to pray.

Agreed to.

MR. DIKO: The important thing is that the hon. the Minister of Agriculture promised it would rain. There would be blessings from God and there would be milk and honey in the Transkei. What we want are citizenship rights , freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom of assembly and equal pay for equal work. We want to impress on the minds of the reasonable Government members that they must have a process of gradual assimilation into the European society of all the civilised Africans in a multi-racial state where we shall have trained men going to Cape Town, whether Sir de Villiers Graaff likes it or not. There must be no differentiation so that this colour is not taken as an indica-

House in Committee .

tion that I am inferior intellectually. This colour is not an indication that I cannot sit and enjoy the fruits of this country in the company of the White man. (Interjections ) My black skin and white skin in the eyes of God are equal, so whatever we do we must not accept an inferior position just because the people who have rights do not like us. We do not want a position where the Black man will be a drawer of water and a hewer of wood for the White man for ever. So where the amendment says we must delete the words "full independence to the Transkei" and clamour for full citizenship rights in the Republic, we mean.... THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Has there been a change of heart in the Whites of the Republic?

MR. K.M. GUZANA: No, Sir, I only stand up to second.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, this is a very short Bill indeed, with only two clauses. Clause 1 is the repeal of Procla mation No. 309 of 1963 subject to certain reser vations. Clause 2 is just the short title. It is not necessary for me to modulate on these clauses as

!

I am sure all the members are agreed on the principle of the Bill. I move the adoption of clause 1. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Has the Leader of the Opposition anything to say?

Clauses 1 and 2 put and agreed to.

1

0 t

The whole Bill was adopted without amendment. House Resumed.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Mr. Chairman, I wish to report that the whole Bill has been accepted by the committee without amendment. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, the third reading of the Bill will be on Monday, 9th May, 1966.

MR. DIKO: Give me a chance. Yes, the change of heart will only come when you and I unite. That is the only time when there will be a change of heart in so far as the Europeans are concerned.

TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL : SECOND READING. The debate was resumed.

The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned Thursday, 5th May, 1966.

until

11

a.m. on

THURSDAY, 5TH MAY, 1966. The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.

Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.

TRANSKI FLAG BILL : THIRD READING.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move that the Transkei Flag Bill be read a third time. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second, Mr. Chairman. The motion was carried. The Bill was read a third time.

MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to make a few observations on the budget speech delivered by the hon. the Minister of Finance yesterday. I think all the members of the House will realise that I am at a disadvantage because I do not have a buttonhole (Laughter), but if I do not have the scent from the Transkei flowers at least I have got the smell of the ground in my nostrils. We welcome the indication from the hon. the Minister of Finance to the effect that the growth of the Transkei should be economical rather than political at its initial stages. This is indeed a change of heart on his part for I think in the past he has overridden the political horse, and I think I now it is getting tired and he has come down to earth and realised that the economy of the Transkei is a very important part in the development of the Transkei. Whilst he complains that the time is too short for any results to be produced since the Transkei Government came into being, yet we feel that certain things should have been done by now to indicate that the Government has realised that the Transkei requires an economic injection in the arm. In realising the need for this economic boost i to the Transkei , the Government has indicated that it will be the entrepreneur in the Transkei. Now

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1

Government enterprise in commerce is good enough up to a certain stage , but the tendency is that the Government thinks that it is the only person to undertake economic enterprises , to the exclusion

tablishment of an agricultural co-operative. Now we welcome that idea but we think the Goverment is not doing enough in this direction because it does not see the obstacles in its way. First of all,

of the private individual, and this tends to kill initiative, to kill incentive in the private individual , who wants to essay into the field of commerce, so that whilst the Government may well take the role of launching commerce and industry in the Transkei we feel we should warn the Govemment against stifling private enterprise. The Government has indicated that there is a lack of skilled labour in the Transkei and the question may well be asked : What has the Government done, or what is the Government doing at the present moment in order to bridge that gap which must be filled before we can see economic development in the Transkei? It seems we are doomed to fail in providing that skilled labour which is essential, because of the Government's policy. When we look at the Republic of South Africa, we find that it is engaged in a very big immigration scheme with special emphasis on skilled immigrants who will go into the industries of the Republic. Now our Government is engaged on an emigration scheme in that it seeks to show the White population of the Transkei to the door, and yet this Government ought to realise that if it is going to have the citizens of the Transkei trained in skilled work it ought to bring in those who have the know-how into the Transkei , rather than tell them to get out of the Transkei .

an economy based on agriculture is a very unreliable one. Climatic conditions change from year to year, from geographical area to geographical area, and an agricultural economy can well be upset completely by factors beyond the control of the Government . The fact that tea-growing in the Lambasi area has been successful does not guarantee that tea will grow in Matatiele or elsewhere in the Transkei.

THE

CHIEF MINISTER : We have got them.

MR. GUZANA: We have noted the exchange of scientists between Great Britain and the United States of America in order to give impetus to scientific development in these respective countries , and one wonders what will happen to the Transkei if we are not going to embark on a scheme of immigration, bringing into the Transkei the man who has the know-how who will teach the citizen of the Transkei these skills which are the prop of industrial and economic development of a country. The Republican Government has allowed outside capital to flow into its industries, has invited textile magnates to come to the Border with a view to developing industry in the Republic. In other words, the country cannot be self-sufficing and hope to keep in pace with development with other countries of the world unless and until it allows foreign capital to be invested in industry in that country. Last year we had an intimation from the Minister of Finance to the effect that White capital would be allowed into the Transkei in White areas under specified conditions. Yesterday we heard from the hon. Minister an intimation which is a complete reversal of that idea. But we must realise straight away that the citizen of the Transkei has not got the money and thus we now find that the Government has got to take the principal role in developing the economy, when this work could very well be undertaken by private individuals investing money in the Transkei and the money that the Government seeks to use as entrepreneurs in commerce could be available for other development. Now the hon. the Minister of Finance has also indicated in his speech that for the beginning we must concentrate on agriculture as it will be for some time in the future the basis of the economy of the Transkei, and that the Government will do everything possible to assist the farmer in the Transkei in this direction. To this end the Government contemplates the es- 101

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : We do not say that at all. MR. GUZANA: And therefore we would have liked to see the Government undertake the teagrowing experiment in various parts of the Transkei to determine whether or not there will be a sufficient acreage under tea to make tea a money-producing undertaking in the Transkei.... THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : That is being done. MR. GUZANA: ....so that if tea is growing in Lambasi it will grow at Coffee Bay and it will grow elsewhere . The hon. the Minister of Agriculture is the most optimistic Minister we have here, and probably this is indicated by his very well developed body. (Laughter) Now, Sir, you have spoken about the establishment of this agricultural co-operative to help and assist the Transkeian farmer. Do we have a clear conception of what a farmer is or should be? Because when I look through the Transkei I do not see a farmer anywhere in the country, firstly because the alloted arable land to him is very, very small. Secondly, his tenure of the land is uncertain. The result is that the farmer cannot be found in the Transkei to produce sufficient for him to feed his family and for him to have his surplus which he will sell to give him a comfortable and a successful living on the land. That is why this side of the House has always insisted upon agricultural development going hand in hand with industrial development so that factories and workshops will draw from the rural population people who will abandon their lands and make those lands available to those men who will make farming their occupation. Then the wage earner will rely on his wage to maintain his family and provide it with a bit of luxury, just as the farmer will find himself in a similar position with a bigger acreage of land available for agriculture.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Do you suggest that teachers and clerks should have no land? MR. GUZANA: If the hon. Minister thinks that teachers and clerks should have no land then I hope he is going to raise their salaries to such a notch that they can live comfortably on what they earn. The principle has its counterpart in as much as you take away the land which supplements the man's low salary, so will you increase his salary so that it need not be supplemented with anything else. Then I think we must have some active, intensive and intelligent propaganda on agriculture and I think the man who has been trained as an agricultural demonstrator is not suited for publicity work on agriculture.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: What do you know about agriculture? MR. GUZANA: We must have people trained specially to put their ideas across to the man in the rural area. If the hon. Minister asks me what I know about agriculture, I want to tell him that I belong to a family where there were five children who were educated with produce from a farm owned under title deed by my father and worked with our hands. And how I would have liked the hon. the Chief Minister to have been the "voorloper" and I had the whip. I would have used it with effect on him. (Laughter) Then I think if you are going to lend money out to the co-operative to assist the farmer, you require some security for that money otherwise you will be accused of being negligent with public funds. And I think the co-operative which is going to handle these funds running upwards of R200,000, which will be used to buy fertilisers and assist people , must have these farmers pledging title deeds in respect of the lands that they will be owning. If there is going to be any development of agriculture then the man who is on the farm must have full ownership, which will develop pride of ownership, which will lead to increased use and better use of the land that he holds. I would have liked to say more on the budget speech and the hon. the Minister of Finance will realise that this side of the House is throwing over constructive suggestions. It is not being destructive at all and one would have liked to give this wisdom to the Government that is probably fast asleep in body and mind. (Laughter) MR. H.M. CANCA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition has delivered his speech and I want to say with pleasure that what he has said is in accord with the views of the Government party. He himself has considered that the Government is looking forward to the economic growth of the country. He has constantly complained that the Transkei cannot be self-sufficient but it should be clear to him that the Government is not asleep and that the Government is trying to meet his complaint that the country cannot be self-supporting. It is with pleasure that we now learn that the Government has made a start in the formation of this Xhosa Development Corporation which will give rise to industries in the Transkei. It will be from these industries that the Transkei will be able to become self-sufficient economically. He also complains that White capitalists have not been allowed to invest in the Transkei. He should remember that there are citizens in the Transkei who should be given preferential treatment in the matter of industries , because they will use the money they raise in the Transkei here in the Transkei.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Where is this money? MR. CANCA: It was made clear from the budget speech that profits from these industries will be returned to the Transkei. We have faith that the Government will see that this becomes a success by having personnel who will not be selfish. He also complained that there is no skilled labour for the running of these industries. The Government is aware of the difficulty and has made it clear that even in the Republic there is this shortage of skilled labour. The Opposition did not say where they could get this skilled labour from because they would not be able to draw it even from the Republic . The Government is determined to encourage all the

things that will be beneficial to the residents of Transkei. There are a few achievements to which the Government can point, showing that it is not asleep. We have already been told of the de-boning factory which will soon be running, and as a result of the factory the Government will be able to export meat. (Interjections)

3

THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Hon . paramount chiefs and hon. members , we have distinguished visitors from all corners of the Republic here this morning. Now I am going to appeal to the members to behave themselves. I will not allow you to make the sort of noise you made here yesterday. Carry on. MR. CANCA: We have often been told that no country or nation can survive if the standard of its agriculture is not high. The Transkei Government has made up its mind to see that this aspect is looked after carefully. The people would certainly be grateful to the Government for its proposed loans to them in this respect, free of interest. We are also thankful that an agreement has been reached in respect of the Vulindlela furniture factory because when this factory was established by the Republican Government there was a promise that it would eventually be given to the Transkei. I do not believe the Opposition then believed that would ever materialise, but there it is today. It is an accomplished fact. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition has remarked that in so far as agriculture is concerned there are those who should earn wages and salaries in factories and industry so that more land should be open for those who should draw their livelihood from the land. I want to tell you that that is just the exact aim of the Transkei Government. I want to say the Opposition should have faith in the Government that these things which are necessary will be done, but they should co-operate with the Government in getting the land rehabilitated . You will note that the moneys we allowed the Goverment to appropriate last year have been properly appropriated.

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MR. GUZANA: Why is there a surplus? It means the Government has not done what it should have done. MR. CANCA: I think the Opposition is disappointed at finding out that the estimates for the year ending 1967 have been properly planned. It is quite clear that no service in the Transkei will suffer owing to lack of funds . There is sufficient money, as you have noted on page 15 of the budget speech.

MR. GUZANA: What you are saying is that if I want to buy matches and I have ten cents in my pocket, then I can buy matches · but it does not mean that I have enough money. MR . CANCA: We support the budget speech because it is quite clear that our position is different from that of Ghana, where the leader of the country misappropriated the funds. (Interjections)

THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR . CANCA: You will find there has been proper planning for education in the Transkei , as can be seen in the many appointments of teachers and also in the salary increments. We also note that beneficiaries under the social benefit scheme are receiving enough money. I say that the budget speech

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placed before us should be unanimously passed because it is of benefit to the Transkei citizens and I am sure you will give this your support in order that there should be proper planning for these citizens.

MR. K.G. NOTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I will not belabour too much the speech of the last speaker. My interest is in the speech of the hon. the Minister of Finance . We have noted in the last three years since this Assembly came into being that on each occasion when he presents his budget speech he has not forgotten to wear a buttonhole. I take it that this is an effort on his part to win over the minds of the members to accept his speech. He tried his very best to make the House aware of the financial position of the Transkei but failed to do so. I would like however to help him in this regard, although I am not also a Minister of Finance. At the outset I would like the House to be aware that the Republican Government has withdrawn the money it had given us in terms of section 52 ( 1) (d ) of the Transkei Constitution Act and therefore the amount in the estimates given this year is not shown . I also wish you to look carefully in the estimates for this year . It is clear that it was shown last year but this year it does not appear. During the year 1964/1965 that money amounted to R2 million . During 1965/1966 it was R2,920,000 . When you look at the estimates for this year you will find they amount to R13,899,000 , whereas last year the figure was R16,331,000 . It is clear therefore that there is an amount missing, and that amount is the money we should have had in terms of section 52 (1 ) (d) of the Constitution Act. One would like to know why this amount has been withdrawn . The reason seems evident . The Republican Government has apparently found out that it is giving revenue to the Transkei Government which the Transkei Government does not use. If you give a person R2 to use and later give him another R2, and you subsequently find that he has not used the first R2 nor the second R2, you will not continue to give him money . It is evident that the hon. the Minister of Finance has not used the money that was given to him to use not that we did not advise him to use the money . We have constantly wamed and advised him to use the money because the people are starving. In his speech for the year 1964/ 1965 he began thus : " I am happy to advise the House that we have a surplus of R4,030,000.❞ This year he says he has a surplus of R4,817,000 . The House will therefore realise that the money is there but it has not been used. Let us note further that he pointed out that he will close the year with a further surplus of R2,108,000 . The money that has since been decreased from R4 million to R2 million = has not decreased because it has been used but because the money has been taken back by the Republican Government . To go further, Mr. Chairman, we would request the hon. the Minister of Finance to explain more fully the estimates of and expenditure. As I look through the records for the last three years I find that it is expected that the Transkei will bring in revenue to the sum of approximately R46 million , and that the estimated expenditure will be R50,634,000 . That means that the income will be exceeded by about R4,278,000. Would the hon. the Minister therefore endeavour to explain to the House how he reconciles the R4 million excess expenditure with the R2 million surplus? It appears also , Mr. Chairman, that the hon. the Minister of Finance has not

got a consistent policy . During the first year of this

Assembly and also during the second, he referred to the minerals which would be mined in the Transkei . There is no mention now of these minerals. They only speak about coffee, tea and sugar plantations. Could we know the reasons for this inconsistency? It seems that in the Proclamation which handed over to us the land of the Transkei he has discovered that he has no right to the minerals. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : That is a lie. MR . NOTA: Why doesn't he refer to these minerals now? I will try to explain further why he has no consistent policy. When he was canvassing for the office of Chief Minister he says in paragraph 11 of his manifesto : "I propose to make representations to the Republican Government for the establishment of a Bantu battalion of the Transkei Government.'"" THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : It is comingdon't you worry . MR . NOTA: In his speech yesterday he says we must not ask for the right to be granted an army . Who has influenced him in this? Even in the matter of independence I asked him how long it would be before we gained independence and he asked me what the position is in Basutoland. Have you forgotten? I would liken him to an employee who drives his owner's taxi and who at a certain time promises he will take a friend to a bioscope and then he finds that his master requires him elsewhere, and his friend waits for him in vain. The Leader of the Opposition has already touched on the question of skilled labour but there is one point I wish to mention. In his efforts to try and meet this situation the hon. the Minister of Finance wants people to leave the Transkei, whilst the Republic on the other hand tries to meet the absence of skilled labour by importing trained personnel into the country. The Republic further encourages foreign investment. Although I am not too sure of the figures , I think England has investments in the Republic amounting to one hundred million rand , but you state you do not want outside investments in this country. How are you going to start factories here? The people are starving. (Interjections) You mention that you have raised the wages of the people working on the roads to R10. You are not even ashamed to say that. Those people must educate their children; they must be clothed and fed; they must have a balance over in order to pay their taxes. How are they going to manage?

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : I will tax you. MR. NOTA: I would like to tell the hon . Minister that he is not sympathetic. You are satisfied to use your XG. 1 and you have in mind that everyone has an XG. 1 to use. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : deprive you of your trading licence.

OPPOSITION

MEMBER :

Is

that

He will

a threat?

MR . NOTA: In reply to the non. the Minister of Education I want to say that it may appear they are only joking, but if they were interested in improving the economic situation in the Transkei they should not worry themselves in trying to find out which side an applicant is before determining whether to give him a licence. No one has confidence

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in this Government. They say they do not require White capital in the Transkei but there is a company of Europeans · the Bantu Investment Corporation who are interested in the profits they will make. (Laughter) THE MINISTER Goverment concern .

OF

FINANCE:

That

is a

MR. NOTA: It is a private company. They have their shareholders and directors . They lend their money on interest. It is a European company with interests in the Transkei.

MR. J.M. SINEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to say that the hon. the Minister of Finance knows his work well. It is true he is like a son who has been left an inheritance by his father to distribute and we judge his work by his actions. It is common to find destructive critics of a man's work. We have listened to a refined

lead the people. He must tell the truth. He will be = indicted before the Almighty for deceiving the people. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. SINEKE : No moneys have been taken away by the Republican Government. What has happened is that the moneys are increasing. There is no abnormal famine in the Transkei, as he said. Not a single man can say that So-and-so died of starva tion in the Transkei . All the Opposition members have done is to go to Lambasi and encourage the labourers there to go on strike for increased wages. (Interjections) Get into the habit of speaking the truth and thank the Government for everything, however small it may be. Of course you may go on criticizing as is your habit, but do not distort things. Teach yourselves to speak the truth.

The debate was adjourned.

speech from the hon. the Leader of the Opposition this morning. Even when he did level criticism it was reasonable. It is obvious that he has been a teacher but the surprising thing is that it would seem that his pupils always fail. This is the third year since he has been trying to train his party but they don't seem to leam. To touch on the question of skilled labour which he mentioned, he posed the question as to where the Transkei Government will get trained personnel if they chase the Whites out of the country. My answer is that if a man has no herd-boy for his livestock he does not give them away as a gift. We are not prepared to give this land to the Whites because we have no one trained to run the industries . We shall employ people as they do in other countries. We have already done so although they are few in number, but eventually we shall increase the numbers. The members of the Opposition are complaining that the people are starving. They themselves have discouraged people from doing proper farming. My hon. friend over there is discouraging people from listening to the agricultural demonstrators . It is no use coming here and complaining when you do not use proper farming methods because anyone who discourages people from using proper methods is killing those people. I think we shall hurt our heads trying to argue with those people who say they are representing the people, whereas they are killing them. The hon. member who has just sat down complained that some money has been taken away by the Republican Government. He further says that the hon. the Chief Minister is boasting that they have raised the wages. The Chief Minister is not only boasting, but he has actually raised the wages of the people. He mentions a wage of 50 cents and wants to know how people can live on that wage, forgetting that before this Government took over the people were getting less than that. How did the people manage to live when the previous Government gave them from 15 cents to 30 cents? You are not in the habit of being grateful for anything you get. (Interjections ) Another member across the floor launched an attack on the

AFTERNOON SESSION.

The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate on the second reading of the Trans- 20 kei Appropriation Bill was resumed. DR. H.P. BALA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to say a few words on the budget. In the first place I am a humble man. Who would discend so low as to attack an African? But here I have been labelled a lot of names - for instance a kaffir, or a commie. To come back to the debate, yesterday we listened to a lecture which seemed to emanate from a white supremist telling us, in short, that everything politically and economically here in the Transkei would be ready in a jiffy for the one and a half million inhabitants. But alas, the lecture was not from a white supremist · it was from a black man like myself, only a shade blacker than I am. (Laughter) As a realist I was depressed. I felt despondent and pessimistic because the speech was bubbling with optimism which is unjustified. The speech contained much bluff, the usual fallacies, the usual fantasies and vague promises and propaganda of a certain nature. I think the hon. the Chief Minister is a propagandist. I think his propaganda can outdo and outpace that of the ace propagandist, Dr. Goebbels. (Laughter) He promises us the moon nay, he promises us a Utopia · nay, an El Dorado for the kaffir. Now where does he say that? He says a man shall attain selfsufficiency in the shortest time. He does not specify when, because he says the shortest time. Are we going to guess? Is that time possibly in five years, ten years, fifty years, a hundred years, two hundred years? Or is it just that it will never happen? Now just want to remind the hon. the Chief Minister that we want freedom in our time . He comes to bluff

because he himself has subjects under him in the country but when he comes to the Assembly here he attacks the Minister and criticizes his work. In

now with vague promises. Secondly, I have always admired the hon. the Chief Minister as an individual and as an intellectual. I thought he was also a nationalist, and I thought his nationalism was deeply embedded in the people but alas, I am disappointed because he is so pungent, so vituperative, so abusive, so cynical, so scornful of the emergent African states up north.

any case the hon. the Leader of the Opposition tried to put right all this. He himself said that people should always tell the truth. I want him to understand that from today he must no longer mis-

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I do not think you are as humble as you told us when you started speaking. (Laughter)

hon. the Minister of Agriculture. I was surprised that such an attack should come from this member

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DR. BALA: He alleges that those states neglect economic factors; they are only concerned with political matters. But I think I can claim also to be a student of African affairs. I know there are

licences and they have never got them. You have given the monopoly to the so-called Bantu Investment Corporation. All development is centred round that wretched organisation which is anything

37 or 38 independent African states. I wonder which particular one he refers to - whether it is the Congo where Patrice Lemumba, the greatest African nationalist was killed by a scoundrel, Moise Tshombe , with the connivance of course of the Americans and the Belgians . Secondly he made. unjustified and unsavoury remarks about Ghana. I wonder if he can compare himself with Nkrumah? Nkrumah did a course in the London School of Economics.

but Bantu. It is only a company of Afrikaans socalled businessmen . Now I will just say a word about the de-boning factory. It is said that it will benefit the stock-owners , but what about those who have no stock? How will they benefit? In some districts in the unsurveyed and non-rehabilitated areas the people without stock outnumber those with stock. What about those who have no stock? How will they benefit? I will pass on to rehabilitation .

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Is that why he squandered all the money?

!

DR. BALA: You have squandered money too . You misuse transport. I do not hold with his squandering of the money, but the Chief Minister says he is immature. What is maturity? Are you mature? Now what has been happening in those African states? They are being taken over by the military juntas, but that is not peculiar to the African states. It has been happening in the South American states, so you cannot say it is only typical of Africa. It is happening right now and I can tell you one of the reasons is instability. I will tell you the other reasons later. Thirdly, why do I say I do not trust you as a nationalist? I think you have tarnished your image now with your loose talk about the African states. Now you have emerged in your true colours as a creation of the White racialists. Now we have been bickering about this side having no policy and that side having a policy, but I think we must also listen to your masters . You remember you went to the Transvaal in 1964 and you went to Turfloop University. Among the people who received you was Dr. Eiselen. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Deal with the budget, not with me.

3 DR. BALA: Dr. Eiselen said in his welcome speech that he was very pleased that there was one chief (you) who was prepared to carry out the policy " of the Republican Goverment of separate development. Now that statement was reported in the Argus group of papers. Can you tell us it is your policy? It is not your policy .

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : What is your policy? DR. BALA: I have no policy. I am a kaffir. (Laughter) The hon. Mr. Guzana mentioned the role ofthe State as entrepreneur. They do not know that that is just naked, unadulterated Communism. Where have we ever heard of a state owning industries except in Soviet Russia and Red China and Cuba? We are not talking about this statutory communism about which we hear so much in this country. We are talking about international Communism. You pretend to be so adverse to Communism and yet you are Communists. I think my hon. friend here will agree with me. This is Communism. We do not want it. I think the other people may cite the example of Iscor, Escom and so on, as though they were state enterprises , but those are largely private enterprises with only nominal Government control. You are also crippling private enterprise . Many people have applied for bottle-store and other

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : What has that to do with the budget? DR. BALA: What I have to say is that rehabilitation sometimes has tragic sequels. In the Nqamakwe district in certain of the locations, certain people were sentenced on the 21st January to a term of imprisonment without the option of a fine , for terms ranging from one to three months, for refusing to comply with an eviction order. One of those men was suffering from heart disease. I can tell you his name and you can verify it. Lastly, it would appear that the Republic is not willing to feed its new baby. The baby will die of malnutrition. Now what can we do? We either have to be accepted on a basis of full equality and if that is unacceptable then partition the country on an equitable basis. If you do not accept that then halve the country, because you claim that we came from central Africa and the white men from Europe and therefore we have an equal share in the development of the country. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I see some of you trying to hide your faces. I am not going to be so severe this aftemoon and some of you are marching out, but I will not say very much because much of the criticism, even by the hon. Leader himself, was directed against agriculture. In his reference to our agricultural projects as outlined by the hon. the Minister of Finance, he showed a decided lack of understanding of true procedure. In fact, when he spoke of the projects he put problems there which he said were insurmountable , forgetting that the Agricultural Department has its concem in Agriculture and it is one of the most efficient Departments in the establishment for the simple reason that it had been a department from the old Bunga days up to the taking over of self- government. So there is practically no new problem in so far as agriculture is concerned in the Territories. I will just ask the Leader to level his criticism after I have read my policy statement, which will cover most of the points he has raised , as at this point I do not want to forestall my policy statement in case I take the wind out of my sails. Allow me however, Mr. Chairman, to reply just generally to the hon. Leader, particularly where he refers to the Government as stifling individual enterprise. Where he gathers that from, I do not know . MR . GUZANA: The Minister of Education said he would have Mr. Nota's licence cancelled.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: That was after you said that. MR. GUZANA : But that is what he said. It betrays your attitude.

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THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: He does not deal with licences. You are very childish. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Let us bury the hatchet. Coming to the stifling of private enterprise, what do you mean? The Government is not stifling private enterprise. Your side is always asking what the Govemment is doing and even when we raise the labourers ' wages, you ask why it is so little. We sent demonstrators to teach the people

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Which is what I am preaching. MR. GUZANA: No , you do not. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : What else is it? MR. GUZANA: It is compulsory. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Give me an example.

to plough and sow and so on, and the next thing you say is what have we done for the people. Then you turn round and say we are taking the initiative and relegating the people's efforts to the background. Some of your members on the other side even want us to cart kraal manure to their lands, plough their lands and do everything for them while they sit and fold their arms. What will we do in starting these industries which the hon. the Minister of

MR. GUZANA: I can give you an example in Butterworth where an area was proclaimed against the wishes of the people. (Interjections)

Finance spoke about? We will give them expert advice and we will grow the raw materials on such a scale as to merit a mill, but at the same time we never close the door to any enterprising farmer who wants to start his own.

process which, of course, you perhaps don't know. The process of declaring an area a betterment area is foolproof. The Magistrate goes to the location, not once but many times, to get the views of the people.

MR. GUZANA: But he hasn't got the land which the Government has. You have 40 or 50 acres which he has not. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : We have this in the Department and we find that with the different projects there is a different acreage allotted for each. But I will give you more detail when I come to my policy statement. What I want to bring to you hon. gentlemen is that no Government would ever retard its people. Our aim is to pull the people up with us but the people have also got a part to play. They must give us their hearty co-operation. I asked you a question, Mr. Leader, while you were speaking when you said that we were not growing enough food to feed our population, and that we were not guiding the people with our demonstrators who, you said, were not fully trained enough to lead the people. I asked you what special course you would recommend………. MR. GUZANA: You misunderstood me. I said the demonstrators were not trained for propaganda work. You would have to get trained propagandists. The demonstrators will show the people how to plant and so on, but the propagandists will help to popularise the methods . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Yes , we have them. We call them extension officers . (Interjections) I asked you whether you supported rehabilitation in principle. It is our basic principle.

MR. GUZANA: So you won't teach the people unless they accept rehabilitation? agriculture THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Answer the question. Do you support rehabilitation? MR. GUZANA: I am asking you if you won't make your personnel available to those who do not accept rehabilitation . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Do you accept it? MR. GUZANA: Let me help you along. I am in favour of voluntary rehabilitation.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: I cannot believe that as a Minister, because it is a wrong

T

MR. GUZANA: It did not happen there. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: If it did not happen there, then my hon. friend is a lawyer and if the law has been broken in any way, or people feel aggrieved in Butterworth well , it should be perhaps to your pecuniary benefit to advise them. MR. GUZANA: No, I do not make any pecuniary benefit out of my parliamentary work. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : The only case I know is where the people resist the wishes of the majority and of course the Government has to go to the assistance of the majority. We have a policy and we are a Goverment, and we will not allow our soil to go to waste during our time. (Interjections) Yes , I can warn you that this country has been given over to you and it has been given to you on this condition that you preserve it and you do not let it go to desert, which can easily happen if you behave in such a manner. The people of the Transkei look forward to you.... MR. GUZANA: They look forward to you most because you are supposed to be responsible for preserving the soil of the Transkei. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: As everyone must. We put up the fences and so on, but you say: What do you do? The people never pay for a single strand of wire. They will not close the gates and control the grazing. I am thinking of Mtentu location on the way to the Bashee. That location is completely rehabilitated. The only snag is that there is no control in the location and it is a waste of money. It should rather be used elsewhere. Now I appeal to you on the other side. You heard my hon . friend, Mr. Mda, the other day when I said I had asked him to accompany me to certain meetings and his reply by way of interjection was that he would not accompany me to those meetings because I preached rehabilitation. Is that the attitude of a responsible member of Parliament, just because I have to refer to rehabilitation of the soil ? I would not be worth the skin I wear if I did not do that and I implore you....

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E

MR. N.C. NOGCANTSI: What about rehabilitating your mouth? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman, such is this world ! (Laughter) Of course, it would be dull without such monkeys . Now, reference was made also, Mr. Chairman, to the Minister's thrift. Where have you ever seen a criticism levelled against a Minister of Finance just because he has a surplus? Are you in Ghana? Would you rather ! he shared that money with you and then you could have posh cars and so on? No · he is made of stemer stuff.

MR. GUZANA: The worst thing is the housewife who keeps the bread in the bread bin until the bread is mouldy and meanwhile the children are starving. (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman, you cannot pinpoint any service which has 四 not been well done, except of course that you say you want increased salaries and the labourers should be paid more liberally, which means that we shall employ less labourers and less of you, perhaps, or none of you at all because we can go on without you. (Laughter)

E

MR. GUZANA: Do you know you are an elected member? You seem to think you are a chief or something. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: I am sure of it. Now the hon. Leader of the Opposition spoke of a class that was emerging amongthe people · the working class, the wage -eaming class. That was very, very interesting and in fact I congratulate him on that, but I would like him to take it upon himself and to make it part of their policy that they are going to deprive all the working people of their land, because that was what it implied. I would not like to take that burden upon myself to deprive the members of Parliament who are wage-eamers of their land.

MR. GUZANA: The man has been earning sufficient to have an insurance policy on his life, and also to contribute to a widows ' pension society by the Government. Why don't you have a scheme like that, so she is well looked after? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: What I want to bring home to you is that the widow cannot ramain there after her husband has died. (Interjections) You cannot expect the Government to look after all these widows in the Transkei. That is just one of the problems which, with your cooperation, we could solve, but you refuse to cooperate. MR. GUZANA: We have been co-operating in our comments this morning. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Well, if you refuse to co-operate we cannot help you. Now, one hon. member from Tabankulu said that.... No , I will leave that alone. MR. GUZANA: Come to the budget. If I were your Secretary I would be embarrassed every time you stood up. One never knows what you are going to say next. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: You must co-operate with the Government. You must be prepared to set your shoulder to the wheel and work and take our advice. You poured cold water on the co-operative scheme which my Department has devised even before you have got the details of the scheme. Is that co-operation, really? MR. GUZANA: I did not pour cold water on the scheme . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Didn't you say that if these people are assisted by the cooperative they should pay... MR. GUZANA : I didn't say "pay" "pledge".

· I said

MR. GUZANA: What are you talking about? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: We have other means of trusting people. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : You said that.

MR. GUZANA: We sue people when they break a pledge.

MR. GUZANA: No, we said that as the man is paid sufficiently to provide all his requirements , so is he going to surrender his land to the man who is going to make a living out of farming.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: We are not like you. We would not sue anyone. It is quite a new venture which you should have listened to, and got the details.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : That is just what I meant. How are you going to do that? Are you going to have more taxes?

MR. GUZANA: I did listen. What did I criticize destructively on this matter?

MR. GUZANA: We say allow more capital to come in to the country .

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : These poor people who are being made to pledge....

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Certainly, that is a very good idea. The Government has that well in hand. As recently as last month we had a visit from the town planning authorities and we discussed these matters. (Interjections) Those centres will be available but at the same time you

MR. GUZANA: They must pledge something. It is public money which is going to be made available to them.

must think of personnel. What will happen to a labourer, say, in one of our plantations who has his allotment of land and unfortunately after five years that labourer dies. What is going to happen to his family?

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: We are dealing with farmers and not with criminals. A co-operative can be worked without your assistance. We are going to lend that money and we are going to give them good seed and the people who have been listening to our advice will reap the benefit. Those who do not listen to our extension officers

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are silly. In one area where they have been experimeeting with fertilisers the yield has risen from two and a half bags per morgen to forty bags a morgen, which is the truth. I will take you there one day. They get the fertilisers and the seed... OPPOSITION

MEMBER:

That is virgin soil.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman, I am very glad you have given me this hearing. I have just been superficial but I think all praise is due to the hon. the Minister of Finance for saving anything, at all, to say nothing of the R2 million which he has saved, for it is an example to our emergent African states not to squander money on useless pleasures and to listen to your wise suggestions, because according to you we would have to double your salaries, and double the salaries of the labourers, and double our clerk's salaries.

MR. GUZANA: Why shouldn't you? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Where is the money? MR. GUZANA: You have refused to ask for it from the Republican Government. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You are turning this Parliament into a den of thieves. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, before the hon. the Leader of the Opposition goes out, I would like to appeal to them to give constructive criticism on the budget. There are no services that we have omitted. MR. N.C. NOGCANTSI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I wonder if the attention of the people will be revived after this long and tiresome drudgery from the hon. the Minister of Agriculture, particularly in his endeavour to make exceptions to the rules. All his efforts was to show how he was obsessed with the rehabilitation scheme. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: His efforts were to show, not "was". MR. NOGCANTSI: It is also pathetic to learn from the hon. the Minister of Justice that I have to leam English now. (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You spent all your time at Healdtown being caned instead of leaming English. MR. NOGCANTSI : To look at this lengthy document before me, it is a very rosy picture of evils. There are a lot of fallacious statements here particularly about farmers, where it is said that they have produced 30 and 40 bags per morgen. This was said to have been achieved last year. One would ask why was there R200,000 set aside for drought relief if there were so many bags produced. On whom then must this tomfoolery be blamed? This year again during the opening of the session the honourable the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development, Mr. Botha, said that the drought needed some relief. This statement that appears on the paper before me is diametrically opposed to that statement of the hon. Minister's and we are not surprised to learn that this puppet Government is busy with formulating lies. They also say that large amounts have been diverted

to agricultural economy, while in fact the estimates demonstrate that there is a decrease of R541,000. They have recently shown their dismal ignorance of what has taken place recently in connection with the passing of Proclamation 93 of 1966, which relates to the Transkei Government and the land and other public property of the South African Bantu Trust, because their intention is to make us convinced that they have every right in minerals which they enumerated some time ago. On several occasions we have inquired about the whereabouts of the revenue which accrues from indirect taxation. That is conspicuous by its absence because there is not a cent that we receive gratis from the Republican Goverment. It is heart-breaking when we find that even this amount is less than last year's, in spite ofthe fact that the population has increased, thereby showing that there is a lot that has been added to indirect taxation. I will give them a simple illustration to show how indirect taxation works. It

15

means every one of us, every human being, has his tail cut and after some time the cutter oftails comes on the next occasion with all the tails to tell you that those tails are meat, and when you feed on those tails you think this is meat that has been given gratis by the master because you cannot do anything. The only fault you have in fact admitted is that you cannot do anything about these tails being given to you because in the course of all our debates we have always been asked what we would do if we were in the Government's position. At least if we were in the position of the Government we would not partake of our tails. Even if we were actually to eat our tails we would tell the master we are actually eating ourselves. There is another misleading version about Ghana. It was fortunate that that was alluded to by a member from the Government side because if it were one of us on this side he would be labelled as a Communist. Even the exposition of the true state of affairs obtaining in Ghana has not been revealed clearly here. We know it for a fact that there are economic projects there and there has been a very big dam constructed recently, but corruption has brought about the existing state of affairs and corruption which is parallel to the one that has been perpetrated by the present Ministers of the Transkei Government. THE CHAIRMAN: Can you prove that? MR. NOGCANTSI : I am going on to prove it. The political campaigns that are being made through the use of Government cars during the by-elections, the lavish engagement of bodyguards .... THE CHAIRMAN: I want an explanation of that word "corruption". MR. NOGCANTSI : Corruption therefore , Mr. Chairman, is embodied in the misuse of Government cars for political campaigns, because that is not legal. I will quote further that there were about two horses which were offered for one cow by a Minister. That is all-embracing corruption. There has been a lot of talk about people demanding wages and salaries. In fact there is no need that people should be denied that right of demanding wages because you will find if you were to study the wages of the people that in all walks of life their wages are below starvation level. Even this absence of skilled labour which cannot be remedied at present is due to lack of decent wages. It is still boring to hear about this century-oid song about meatprocessing and de-boning factory. Sometimes it is

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said

1

ཟ

2

to

be in operation ;

sometimes it is being

planned for. What I have noticed is that there are so many oxen slaughtered during the by-election campaigns so there is a lot of money that is being wasted in oxen, and also in buying brandy. (Laughter) We want to see the results of this meat-processing industry but we have never seen them yet. Furthermore, there has been a lot of expenses in connection with wooden buildings mentioned here and as far as I know personally, those have been given gratis to the seconded officials of the Transkei Government, and besides their being more highly paid than anybody they are renting these freely which shows that in those respects they are a financial liability to our State. Furthermore, some time ago there was great talk about technical colleges being established for the Transkei . What I know is that even a dreamer sometimes wakes up, but I have never known a dreamer who remains forever in slumber. > We are mostly concerned with practical issues, not daydreams. Even this difficulty of having skilled labourers in this country is deliberately done because our students who are eager to go to the technical colleges outside the Transkei are never given that permission. They are always told they should remain in the Transkei because the colleges have to be established in the Transkei. This economic progress is always indefinitely being planned, but there is this symbol of aggrandisement when the Minister says he is planning economic progress in the most responsible way. The activities of the Bantu Investment Corporation and Xhosa Development Corporation show that such organisations are advancing monopolistic policies. One can see nothing else coming out of that except exploitation and exploration. It has been reiterated that this policy of excluding Whites from this country is detrimental and suicidal. It is an admitted fact that only White skilled labour is available in all the countries at present. As long as we deny them that right of coming into the Transkei it means we shall remain in this bog in which we are. Further, there has been criticism and disparaging of other departments , particularly on page 13, which means there is a civil war now that has developed amongst the departments of the Transkei. (Laughter) I wonder why there has always been talk of surplus when there are so many departments that are lacking funds , such as Education? Further, why should there be comparison between the old school and the present school? There is always unfair comparison between the salaries of the Republic and the present Transkei . What the people want is rate for the job, but it has been shown that the hon. the Chief Minister is very much obsessed with colour and is only displaying colour discrimination in connection with wages and salaries. Even the use of the term " Communism " - he does not know it belongs to the stifling of individual enterprise . The Africans who are here are used for doing heavy labours and the Whites are only using pen and signatures , but the hon . the Chief Minister has never bothered about paying more to those who are working more heavily than the others. Throughout all this budget speech there is too much generalisation and abysmal ignorance about climatic conditions , so I also think the electorate will take cognizance of this, that next time when they elect people they should elect literate people, not people like Madikizela. In conclusion, therefore, I say let the Government appeal to the Republican Government. THE

CHAIRMAN :

please behave yourself. You know perfectly well you must refer to another member as "the honourable member. Mr. So-and-so ". not just "Madikizela❞ . MR. NOGCANTSI : I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, that was not done intentionally. In other words, I will appeal to the hon. the Minister of Finance. THE CHAIRMAN : Please member, Mr. Madikizela" .

repeat

" the hon.

MR. NOGCANTSI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members of the House, I will apologise for saying "Madikizela” but I will say now the hon. Mr. Madikizela of Qaukeni region. (Laughter) THE CHAIRMAN : Just a minute. Please read the rules. I have told you a second time. You must say " the hon. member, Mr. Madikizela” . MR . NOGCANTSI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members of the House, I will have to repeat that forthe third time that if I ever misuse the allusion to the hon. member, Mr. Madikizela of the Qaukeni region... THE CHAIRMAN : You are determined not to listen to me. Each time you are making a supposition. You do not want to say what I am advising you to say. I am giving you the very words but you do not want to use them. You beat round the bush. MR. NOGCANTSI : In conclusion, Mr. Chairman...

THE CHAIRMAN : No , not in conclusion . You must do as I say and address him the right way as it is in the rules. MR. NOGCANTSI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I think I have said in referring to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry, Mr. Madikizela.. I have forgotten the rest. THE CHAIRMAN : All right.

MR. NOGCANTSI : In conclusion , Mr. Chairman, I want to make a hearty appeal to the hon. the Minister of Finance that he must, together with his Cabinet Ministers, go and make another financial appeal which will exclude the tails, but which will be a pure and simple gift from the Republican Government. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I now move that the House adjourn until 4.15 p.m. when I will be in a position to make a short reply to the remarks by the hon. members across the floor. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I wish we would have an indication of the time allotted to these discussions, and not just be taken by surprise. I appeal to you to use your power as Chairman in this particular connection as we still have some speakers on this side. THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . paramount chiefs and hon. members , the hon. the Chief Minister said exactly what I had in mind and I took it that this question was exhausted. THE CHIEF MINISTER : With all due respect, Sir, I feel that the hon. members across the floor are wasting a lot of time repeating themselves on matter which is still to be debated in this Chamber. Every Minister is still going to give a policy statement with regard to the matters of his department

Excuse me , hon. member,

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and the hon. members across the floor will have a chance of making these minute attacks on the Ministers' votes. If the hon. members across the floor are so talkative they can easily get the chance at the congresses in order to put their own house in order, as it is so much in disorder. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , what I am saying is that we are not to be taken by surprise. That is the gravamen of my complaint. Further, if we have speakers ready to speak they should be given the opportunity to speak and if we knew how much time is being allowed on a particular debate then we would streamline our speakers accordingly. But to curtail suddenly a debate is to slap these speakers in the face when they are ready to speak in the debate.

The debate was adjourned. AFTER ADJOURNMENT.

gative to have these industires in the White areas. It is common knowledge that before the Transkei Government came into existence in 1963 there was no thought of establishing industries in these Territories. Why? Because the White people were not interested in this country to the extent of bringing in their money. They regarded it as a reservoir of cheap labour to go and work on the farms and the mines. We cannot therefore emulate the Republican Government that wants to have immigrants from overseas and invite all the White people who have the money to come and start industries in the Transkei , as that will result in the closing out of our own people. We are quite aware that we are probably lagging behind in the scientific and technological development of industry, but this Government has gone all out to try and get European technicians who can assist in bringing up these projects. That is done on a contractual basis. You probably do not know that the Transkei Government has had

&

115

contracts with certain European scientists.

The debate on the second reading of the Transkei Appropriation Bill, 1966, was resumed.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , this afternoon I feel that I am a very happy man, because of the support which my budget speech has received from the Opposition benches. I say the speech has received appreciation because of the constructive remarks which were made by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. I wish that the attitude adopted by the hon. member could be emulated by some of his obstinate colleagues. You will note that as soon as the hon. member for Qaukeni took the floor I decided to leave the House because I knew he was going to speak a lot of rubbish. Because of lack of knowledge, due to the low standard of education, the hon. members across the floor were not in a position to criticize the budget speech in the manner in which the hon. the Leader of the Opposition presented his address . The subject was so high that they decided to come down to a very low level of attacking the Minister of Finance personally. For that reason I have decided to ignore all the vituperations which came from the hon. members from Qaukeni and also the herbalist from Butterworth. (Laughter) Mr. Chairman, listening to the speech of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, I noticed that his criticism was centred around the exclusion of White capital in the Transkei. I am sure the hon. member, knowing the Constitution as he does, is aware of the fact that the White people in the Transkei cannot be allowed to be a permanent community in the area. Nobody can come and invest money in a country where he cannot own property. To say that the tendency of the Government was exclude individual initiative and incentive is incorrect. The policy is that where the Government embarks on industrial development, African capital from anywhere in the Republic will be allowed to flow into the Transkei and be invested in these projects. It can never be said that the African people who are now in the urban centres cannot acquire sufficient capital to form companies and start industries in the Transkei. It must be borne in mind that these Transkeians who are in the urban centres, and who have probably acquired much of the know-how and could be in a position to start industries in the Transkei, have not got the prero-

MEMBER :

Give

one example.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : For example, I think the hon. the Minister of Agriculture will give you all that, as it concerns his Department.

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MR. GUZANA: You should tell us. He will let us down . E THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Now the Goverment has been criticised for not knowing anything about the finances, especially by the hon. member from Eastern Pondoland , Mr. Nota. I just want to inform him that my section of the Department - that is, the Treasury section B has got the most eminent and learned financial men. They know what they are about and cannot be criticized by a man who cannot even keep the books of his shop. He has tried to analyse the revenue of the Transkei , comparing it with the expenditure . I just want to in- 5 form him that there has been no cutting down of the services which are being performed in the Transkei. Instead the Government has increased these ser 3 vices. In my speech I made it clear that an amount of over R18 million has been estimated as revenue from which expenditure is to be incurred. Now when you have a surplus you cannot say that services which should have been performed have not been performed . MR. K.G. NOTA : My argument was that a certain amount has been withdrawn by the Republican Government. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: That is incorrect. I wish you would go thoroughly into the estimates of expenditure. The Republican Government has maintained the same amount that it has given us before.

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THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members, I shall call upon the hon. the Chief Minister to reply to the debate.

OPPOSITION

MR . NOTA: Excuse me, Sir. Kindly explain why the revenue is R13 million instead of R16 million. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: I have already explained to you, hon. member, that we are expecting a revenue of over R18 million, which is to be expended by the Transkei Government. Any Government that does not have a surplus could be accused of financial irresponsibility . The surplus is there for certain contingencies which are unanticipated. The hon. Mr. Nota would like to see the Transkei Government squander all the money and be left with no surplus. Now I wish to return to the constructive speech of my hon. friend, the Leader of the Opposi-

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tion . He has attributed the shortage of skilled labour to the Government, which does not allow White immigration.

The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed. GRANTING OF FULL INDEPENDENCE TO THE TRANSKEI .

MR. GUZANA: On a broad basis.

of sa

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Yes. I want to assure him that in accordance with our policy this will merely be a temporary shortage. What is happening to the Transkei today has happened to all the countries the world over. It is what happened in South Africa when the White man landed on this land. They had to get all their captial from the Government of the mother country. They had to get all the skilled workers from their Government. That is the position with us today. We are not very much short of skilled men. It is a temporary measure which I think will soon be overcome .

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MR. GUZANA : May I just ask a question , Mr. Chairman? In as much as the Department of Railways and Harbours has embarked on a scheme whereby it trains Africans in driving heavy-duty vehicles and maintaining its vehicles in the workshops in the Republic, and these have been posted to the Transkei, is it not possible for this Government to arrange for Africans to go into the workshops of the Republic and remain there until employment in the Transkei is open to them? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : That is the position which the Government is to consider. We shall consider getting our own young men to be employed in the Transkeian workshops and if possible we can request the Republican Government to apprentice these fellows in their own workshops . I do not think there is much more for me to reply to. I merely wanted to reply on this question of immigration. I am happy that the Opposition has taken my budget speech in a very gentle manner. Probably they will come up with amendments when we deliver the votes of the various departments. I appeal to the House to accept what the Department of Finance has put before this House and approve the amount of money which is to be expended for the services of the Transkei generally.

THE CHAIRMAN : I will put the question that the Bill be read a second time .

Agreed to. The Bill was read a second time. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman, the committee stage will be on Monday next week I just want to announce that tomorrow I will be on duty elsewhere and I want to advise the House that motions will be discussed. THE SECRETARY : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the Appropriation Bill and the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure now stand committed to the committee of supply in terms of the rules of the House. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Friday, 6th May, 1966.

FRIDAY, 6TH MAY, 1966.

The debate was resumed.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise on a point of order on the motion before the House. I submit that the amendment to Motion No. 3, introduced by the hon. Mr. H.T.N. Bubu, be ruled out of order and that it be removed from the order paper. My submission , Mr. Chairman, is that this motion is ultra vires the powers of this House. The position is that this House has jurisdiction to discuss matters affecting the Transkei and Transkei an citizens. That is enshrined in the preamble to the Constitution Act No. 48 of 1963. I will quote , Mr. Chairman: "Whereas the policy of separate development envisages the gradual development of self-governing Bantu National Units in the traditional Bantu homelands..." I shall not quote all, but I will quote the penultimate paragraph which says: "Whereas it is desirable to grant further powers of self- government to the Bantu of the Transkei on the basis of the principles proposed by them and with the firm intention to establish well-organised government for that territory that will maintain law and order and ensure justice to all ; will promote the material and spiritual well-being of the Transkei and its peoples ; will protect and develop their own culture; and will preserve the ideals of religion , civilization and democracy ... " MR. N.C. NOGCANTSI: Do you mean that the motion is different from democracy?

THE CHAIRMAN: Just a moment, hon. member. As this is a delicate matter I will not allow interjections. Members must listen carefully. Carry on. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Now, Mr. Chairman and members of the House, the amendment to that is, the amendment introthe original motion duced by the hon. Mr. Bubu - would read as follows: "That in the opinion of this House the Transkeian Government consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to grant all citizens of the Republic their full citizenship rights. " My submission is that if this motion had said "all citizens ofthe Transkei their full citizenship rights " that would be in order, but it goes beyond the Transkei, which means that this House seeks to legislate on matters which are beyond the jurisdiction of the Transkei. In other words , it wants to tell the Republic of South Africa to grant full citizenship rights to Indians , Coloureds and all the rest of the people in the Republic. It must be quite clear, Mr. Chairman, to the hon. members that this is a Government of the Transkei, which is a State. There seems to be a mistaken idea to turn this House into a political organisation to fight against the policies of the Republican Government. It is on that account, Mr. Chairman, that I feel that this motion is beyond the powers of this House. It is ultra vires the powers of this House . I therefore submit that it is out of order and it be ruled out of the order paper, Mr. Chairman .

The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.

Prayers were read.

THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , I cannot allow a full debate on this

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point of order, but will allow one member on the Opposition side twenty minutes to reply to the submission of the hon. the Minister of Justice, after which I will close the debate and give my ruling. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members of the House, I get the impression that the Chairman has had a preview of this exception which has been raised by the hon. the Minister of Justice, and it would appear that his, shall I say, interlocutory announcement has been decided on before the matter was even before this House, and we are gravely brought to the somewhat hesitant conclusion that probably there is already a decision which will be delivered by the Chairman in his ruling. Now it is unfortunate that we should get that impression ....

THE CHAIRMAN : I am afraid, hon. member, you cannot attack me. MR. GUZANA: I am not attacking the Chairman. I am merely replying to his announcement without attacking him. It is not that I am attacking you, I am merely expressing my reaction to your ruling. The hon. the Minister of Justice has referred us to the preamble and suggests that this amendment is ultra vires and he mentions under this head the fact that the Transkei is a State. Now my submission is that that is not so... THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: A self-governing State. THE CHAIRMAN : I will not allow interjections on this matter. MR. GUZANA: There is nothing in the preamble to say that the Transkei is a self-governing State. I read through the preamble and the word "State" has not been used anywhere at all. All that is indicated there is that a process of gradual handing over of powers is going on; that that handing over is not complete at this stage; and that so long as that gradual handing over is going on the Transkei has not reached a stage where it can be regarded as a State. Conversely it will continue to be part of the Republic of South Africa until the severance of the last link has been made by granting the Transkei independence. So what happens in the Transkei has a significance in the Republic; what happens in the Republic has a significance in the Transkei , both from the political and the legal aspect; and legislation by the South African Government before the enactment of the Transkei Constitution Act continues to be of full force and effect in the Transkei so long as the Legislative Assembly of the Transkei has not passed a law relevant to that legislation which is applicable in the Transkei. That position becomes more clear when we realise that certain departments of government are still with the Republic and the Republic will legislate on matters falling under those departments to the extent that that legislation will affect the Transkeian citizen. The Constitution Act goes on to continue and perpetuate the citizenship of the Transkeian citizen in the Republic of South Africa so that the Republican Government can pass legislation affecting the citizenship of a person who is also a citizen of the Transkei. The citizen of the Transkei is subject to all the duties, obligations and responsibilities; enjoys the rights, privileges and benefits which he had even before the passing of the Transkei Constitution Act. Those are existing now. Citizenship of the Transkei is supplementary to the citizen-

ship of the Republic. It is not a derogatory or a reducing factor on that citizenship. If, therefore, the citizen of the Transkei is also a citizen of the Republic, then he is entitled to speak about those things which affect his citizenship in the Republic of South Africa, and this motion is not legislatory. A bill has not been brought into this House by the the Opposition, and to suggest that this amendment has the effect of a bill is to give to an amendment greater cogency and greater resultant effect than it actually deserves. Our citizenship in the Republic is assured with the White man, with the Coloured, with the Indian, with the African, and anything affecting that citizenship which is shared by all these races can be the subject of common representation by anyone of the racial groups which share that citizenship. It is most derogatory on the powers and functions of this House to suggest that a motion or an amendment brought into this House seeks to make this House a political platform or a political organisation, and the motion seeks to make the representation in the manner provided for in the rules in that it has a preamble to the effect that it considers it advisable for this Govemment to make representations. In that connection the amendment has been put in in terms of the rules of this House and it cannot be suggested that this motion deals with any matters outside the jurisdiction of the House . But supposing we were to suggest that this matter of citizenship rights is outside the jurisdiction of the House, what then? Our rules of procedure provide that we make representations that this Government make representations to the Republican Govemment, and we are now, by bringing this amendment to the House, seeking to have this Government make representations as is provided for in our rules; and if citizenship rights of the Republic were excluded and were not a matter to be handled by this House, then this Government can make representations - otherwise it could legislate on that citizenship. May I further suggest, Sir, that if the hon. member sought to raise an exception, such exception should have been raised in limine. The business is now already the business of the House and has been discussed and has been reported and recorded in the records of the debates. How will this exception be upheld at this stage when we are in the middle of the discussion of a matter that is before this House? Such an exception cannot be raised during the proceedings or during the discussions, but could have been raised in limine before the discussion started , and before it belonged to the House.

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THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , in view of the reasons advanced by the hon. the Minister of Justice I rule the amend ment by the hon. member, Mr. Bubu, out of order.... (Laughter) Order, please. I rule it out of order and is I order it to be removed from the order paper. I will now allow discussion on the motion by the hon. member, Mr. Sinaba, and the amendment by the hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, we would like to ask for a ten minutes adjournment because this ruling seems to silence us. THE CHAIRMAN : I am afraid I cannot allow that, hon. member. The last speaker was the hon. Mr. Diko. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before I debate on the motion

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of independence, I would like to draw the attention of this House to an article that appeared in the Sunday Tribune of February 20th this year. I shall read the article . " Some Basuto may be urging Transkei freedom. " That is the heading. "The possibility that certain elements in Basutoland have been encouraging calls for independence in the Transkei has been gaining belief in Umtata. The theory is given substance when it is pointed out that the first rumblings of independence came from the Maluti region of the Transkei, which borders on Basutoland. Maluti tribesmen also speak Sesuto, the language of the Basutos and many of them have strong blood traces of Basuto. The Minister of the Interior, Chief Jeremiah Moshesh, who is from the Maluti region, is a direct descendant of one of the most powerful royal households of Basutoland, the Moshesh family. " Mr. Chairman, I would like to sound a word of waming to the press reporters here present to refrain from making such wild, irresponsible and stupid speculations as this. The fact that I am a direct descendant of Moshesh, and therefore Sesuto-speaking, has nothing to do with the political aspirations of the Basuto people or of the Transkei. My people in the Maluti region and I can never be influenced by those disturbing elements in Basutoland in any manner whatsoever. It is not surprising to note that the Basutos in the Transkei are always viewed with suspicion, I dare say even by some of the members of the Republican Government. It is engendered by these irresponsible statements. Lastly, I want to point out in no uncertain terms that as a nation here in the Transkei , we shall always fight for our rights with no strings attached. We are not a tribe , but a nation. To prove to you that I am proud of my language , I will carry on the debate in my own language and will now come back to the amendment. It is surprising, Mr. Chairman, that the papers should appeal to Basutoland and refer to some people as "certain elements" , meaning those who are resident in the Transkei . It is understood that this motion of independence was raised by a certain J.Z. Kobo of Dalindyebo region. Fancy a person leaving his area to go and pollute the people of another area! Mr. Kobo is quoted here to have said: " The Transkei should be fully independent, especially in foreign affairs, and should have the right to join the United Nations and also the organisation for African Unity. " Are we going to allow ourselves to be a springboard for agitators? I will quote further from the Daily Dispatch of the 14th February this year: "There has been pressure for an independent Transkei and some of this pressure has come from former members of the banned African National Congress. In fact, it is believed that not so long ago remnants of the A.N.C. tried to infiltrate the T.N.I.P. of Chief Kaiser Matanzima." Then further down it goes on: "With sovereign independence and representation at the United Nations , for which they would most certainly campaign strongly, the Bantustan would be used as an instrument against South Africa." It is perfectly evident that the mover of this idea had in mind to put the Transkei at logger heads with the Republican Government because it appears that ultimately his idea was that the Transkei should join other countries. (Interjections) It is further evident that the mover of this idea was not really a full member of the T.N.I.P. We cannot therefore allow a member whose ideas are foreign to us to bring his ideas into this Assembly. Now the prodigal son · indeed a prodigal son. I will quote from the Daily Dispatch of the 20th April, 1966. "Among the five points announced by Mr. Sinaba as the

basis of his Transkei People's Party Constitution was that he would contest for the extension of Transkei franchise to allow full representation in the lower house . He would also create an upper house for traditional leaders and oppose their sitting in the lower house." One really wonders why he ever broke away from the Democratic Party. This is proof that he has now gone back home where he belongs. You can talk to him and accept him in your party. He is there already. Now, Mr. Chair man, I shall not waste your time by referring much to the hon. Mr. Sinaba. It is quite clear that this motion of independence has been pushed down his throat when he himself does not approve of it. I certainly deny that this came from the Maluti people. It has been put into him by such agitators as Mr. Kobo. As further proof of this statement, Mr. Chairman, ever since the debate on this motion started he has not uttered a word. If this had been given him by the Maluti electorate, why did he not put it first to the T.N.I.P. executive and thereafter bring it to the congress of the T.N.I.P. He has made this his own pet because none of the Maluti electorate even know anything about it. As I said, I will not waste my time. Thank you , Mr. Chairman.

MR. T.H. BUBU : Mr. Chairman, in view of your ruling in connection with our amendment and in view of the fact that you did not allow an adjournment for us to consider this , I feel we must appeal to you to allow us to make an amendment which will fit within your ruling. It will be quite reconcilable with everything that has been said by the hon. the Minister of Justice and by yourself. I consider it is competent for us to request you as we are doing. This is the amendment, Sir: "That all the words after the word ' grant'.... THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. member, I am afraid you were the last speaker before we closed. MR. BUBU: I should like you to listen to the content of the amendment, Sir. THE CHAIRMAN : You have already had a chance to speak and you were the last speaker. MR. BUBU: I am not speaking now, Mr. Chairman, I am merely asking you to allow me to move this amendment. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to speak on the motion and to propose an amendment to the motion in terms of rule 72 (a). I will give the Chairman a chance to look at that and ask for your ruling.

THE CHAIRMAN : Carry on.

MR. GUZANA: The amendment reads: "That all the words after the word ' grant' be deleted and the following words substituted therefor: ' all citizens of the Transkei their full citizenship rights in the Republic'. " THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I submit that that proposed amendment is out of order in terms of rule 73 (b). MR. GUZANA: May I help him , Mr. Chairman? An amendment is out of order if it seeks to amend another amendment. This amendment seeks to amend the original motion.

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THE CHAIRAMN : Do you wish to speak to your amendment, hon. member? MR. GUZANA: If you please, Mr. Chairman. I see the time is 12 noon, and during the war we used to observe a pause at that time. If we had any say in the matter, we would now have a minute's pause to shed tears on the surrender of the rights of the African in South Africa by the Government. This side of the House seeks to ensure that what is contained in the Constitution is in no way interpreted to negate the rights of the citizen of the Transkei in the Republic of South Africa. It is not as if we are pushing our selves into the Republic because we belong there constitutionally. Our security in the Transkei and our right to live is the responsibility of the Republican Government. I shall be protected as a member of this Assembly, as a citizen of the Transkei, as a citizen of the Republic, by the Republic in the event of my safety being endangered. I discharge my obligations as a citizen of the Republic to the extent that if I become liable for income tax I pay my income tax to the Republic of South Africa, and as I buy cigarettes and sugar and the necessities of life, I indirectly contribute by way of taxation to the treasury of the Republic of South Africa which, in turn renders certain services to me. Therefore I can ask the Republican Government to allow me to enjoy the full rights of a citizen of the Republic of South Africa. The hon. the Minister of Justice poured vituperation on the Opposition accusing it of trickery in getting its amendment before this House by way of seconding the motion on independence. If the Government side is not awake, it is not the duty of Opposition to put them wise to strategy. (Laughter) You are always caught napping and you are not even aware that you are citizens of the Republic and you can speak about your citizenship rights. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: motion want then?

What does the

MR. GUZANA: Our motion seeks to have those restrictions which reduce the rights of the African in the Republic removed so that whilst we are citizens of the Republic we suffer under certain disabilities. When we had the debate on the budget speech yesterday delivered by the hon. the Minister of Finance, this side of the House indicated to the Goverment that it could well ask the Republican Government to take Africans into its workshops and factories because this side of the House sees the exclusion of the African from such work as a limitation on the rights of the citizen of the Transkei as a citizen of the Republic. In effect, job reservation keeps the African, who is a citizen of the Republic , out of employment which is open to other citizens of the Republic. In effect we find that those jobs closed to the African, to the citizen of the Transkei , are available to people who are not citizens of the Republic but are mere residents in the Republic. Thus the immigrant can take up a skilled employment as against an African who is a citizen of the Transkei, because that citizen is excluded by the principle of job reservation from taking up that employment. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman ... MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I must know whether I am going to speak in this House or not.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman and hon. members of this House, the hon. member for Dalindyebo says that the Govemment side is asleep. MR. GUZANA: Is this a point of order? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Precisely. I suppose that is why he thinks that when he was asked to chase away a donkey he brings in an ass. (Laughter) THE CHAIRMAN: I do not think you are standing on a point of order, hon. member.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Here is a point of order, Mr. Chairman. You gave a ruling this ! morning on the amendment of the hon. Mr. Bubu on E the reasons that I advanced when I objected to the amendment, and my reasons were that that amendment sought to ask that this House should do what is beyond its jurisdiction . This is precisely the same. THE CHAIRMAN:

do not think so, hon. member.

MR. GUZANA: Now the hon. the Minister of Justice, I must repeat again, is asleep. The citizen of the Transkei is thus asking why he should have this disadvantage when a person who is not a citizen of the Republic has skilled work open to 1 him, although he is not a citizen of the Republic. I will ask the hon. the Minister of Justice to retum this amendment to the table in case it disappears. (Laughter) .... THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: I am still studying it. I have just borrowed it from the table.

MR. GUZANA: Why should we not be allowed to go into the workshops of the Republic? Why should we receive a lower wage than other people who work in the Republic who are not black? We feel that this industrial exclusion of the citizen of the Transkei is in itself a reduction of the rights of citizen2 ship available to the Transkei citizen by reason of the fact that he is a Republican citizen. Citizens of the Republic can travel anywhere in the Republic if they have an identity card with them. I shall make a reservation in respect of the Indians, who have to get a permit to go through the Transkei allowing them to remain in the Transkei for twelve or 24 hours only. In other words, the other citizens of the Re public enjoy free movement in the Republic of South Africa. The citizen of the Transkei cannot go T into an urban area and remain for longer than 72 hours in that area without having to report his presence there. Certain municipalities require that on arrival you must report at the administration office so that your presence is known. A wife seeking to join her husband temporarily in an urban area outside the Transkei has to get a permit to proceed to her husband who is at the place of employment, and Government decree will lay down how long she may remain with her husband, to whom is she is married, within that urban area. If she goes in to an urban area and does not get a resident's permit she may well be reported, convicted, serve a term of imprisonment ; or she may be deported back to the Transkei . Is this not a curtailment of the citizenship rights of the Transkei citizen, who is a citizen of the Republic? Is this curtailment not

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implying that the citizen of the Transkei is an irresponsible person who cannot behave properly outside the Transkei? Doesn't this undermine a person's sense of propriety and a sense of good behaviour when he is outside the Transkei? Doesn't this curtailment of citizenship rights result in an undermining of family life of the citizen of the Transkei? willnot this Government concede that this is a matter of vital importance? For if we are going to have a suitable family life in the Transkei for the citizens of the Transkei, communication and commuting between husband and wife when the husband is at work must be protected, because these people are, in addition to being citizens of the Transkei, also citizens of the Republic. Sir, we were given some figures a few days ago relating to the number of of people who are in employment in the Republic, and how the Government has increased that number. I think we got these figures from the hon. the MinisJ ter of Justice, and he gave us to understand that there has been an increase in the number of citizens of the Transkei who have found employment in the Republic. Now I want to comment on those figures in the light of the amendment which we have brought in. Probably you do not realise that if a man has gone to work on contract for six months , at the end of the term of the contract he comes back to go up again under contract so that you count this man twice because he has been written up under contract two times in one year. Previous to that a man left his job of work to join another employer without necessarily having to come back home to the Transkei to be recruited for work, so that those figures are misleading.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Where do you get that?

MR. GUZANA: They are turther misleading because they are not quoted together with the figures on unemployment in the Transkei and probably you would find that as these figures apparently increase, so unemployment figures correspondingly increase and so the percentage remains the same. Now the citizens of the Republic who are not Africans are free to seek work anywhere in South Africa. But for the African · he has to go up on contract . Even when he gets to his place of employment he cannot change his employment for better employment that becomes available to him on getting there. He is compelled at the end of his term of contract to return to the Transkei and be recruited again under contract. Is this not indeed a dimunition of the citizenship rights of the citizen of the Transkei, as a citizen of the Republic. I believe that a Government which seeks to protect its subjects will not only do so within the area of its jurisdiction, but also beyond the boundaries of that area into other parts of the world.

number has increased, this Government is quite satisfied with the situation . My point is , Sir, that as a Government you look after your citizens in the Transkei but you also look after them outside the Transkei , even if they did not have the citizenship of the Republic, not even to consider the policy of the Opposition, which is a multi-racial one, falling in line with my submission · but to consider man as a human being with rights. This Government can make representations on the question of shortage of labour so that the Republican Government, instead of importing skilled labour elsewhere, could take the citizen of the Transkei and train him into the skills. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: That is what we are doing. MR. GUZANA: If the Government is doing that then I would expect it to stand on the housetops, on the hilltops, on the mountaintops and let everybody hear about it. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: That is why you have trained bus drivers.

MR. GUZANA : That is not on your initiative - that is the Republican Government. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No, it is ours.

MR. T.H. BUBU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I second the amendment. THE CHAIRMAN : The discussion is now open, but before we start I will ask the members to consider the amount of work we have in front of us and so we cannot allow many speakers because if we do we shall be here until August.

THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am glad the hon. member from Maluti has introduced this motion because as a member of our party we expected this motion to be considered by the party first. However , as a result of his introducing the motion in this manner we cannot support it. It is quite clear that the hon. member can only be regarded as a rebel. Our namely that the Transkei party has certain ideas will ultimately get independence. Any achievements take their own time. We as a party do feel that at present it is not right to sever connections with the Republic of South Africa because when we examine matters we see there is actually no considerable development, economically or otherwise. That means that if we support the motion we shall be destroying the country. We shall decide upon the right time. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN: Order, please.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear.

THE MINISTER OF ROADS: We recognise the

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: We are doing that, that is why there is more employment. MR. GUZANA: If there is more employment , is it ennobling employment or ignoble employment?

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It depends.

fact that all people would like to be independent because we know that no nation wants to remain forever subject to another, but that does not mean that one must do things haphazardly through pressure from certain people who want to see independence overnight. We are a reasonable Government and have the interests of the entire Transkei at heart. We are not interested in individual interests like the hon. member for Maluti.

MR. GUZANA: So when you go on contract to dig up potatoes in the Orange Free State, and the

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OPPOSITION MEMBERS: What is the date? Tell

!

THE MINISTER OF ROADS: It is quite clear that the hon. member is not appearing. (Interjections) THE CHAIRMAN : Hon member from Maluti, you are making too much noise. Your voice is too loud.

MR. B.S. RAJUILI: The Government is heckling me too. THE CHAIRMAN: You are interfering with the speaker. You must give him a chance. THE MINISTER OF ROADS: It is quite clear that the hon. member for Maluti is appearing in his true colours and that he intends identifying himself with the motion. I have already said we have the interests of the entire Transkei at heart and we want development to go on in the proper way. We have watched the African states who received independence rather quickly.

We have seen their

downfall and their government snatched away by the army. We as a Government realise that such a position is no good and we must hasten slowly. We know that freedom is coveted by all people in the Transkei and when the time comes we shall have to sound the opinion of all the people, not only of the Maluti region . We shall first of all have to find out if the people can live. Any Goverment which does not recognise the path I have described is an unreasonable government. THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members, after the lunch adjournment we shall take a vote on the original motion as well as on the amendments. I have given you all a chance on this motion.

MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that there is the mover of the original motion and I think he ought to be given a chance to reply, even if you chop our necks. THE CHAIRMAN: I will give the hon. Mr. Sinaba a chance, but he will be the last speaker.

The debate was adjourned.

In resuming his debate on what would happen if independence were granted to the Transkei , I would say he felt we would be in a very difficult position # financially. He felt that if the Republic tumed round and withdrew all their assistance, what would we do? But I, for one, feel that the Republican Government would never do that but if they do so, well , we will appeal to other countries, and in fact we feel they would be prepared to assist us. The amounts granted us by the Republican Government, which to me seem so small, I would compare to pauper relief. At this stage the money granted us by the Republican Government could never take us where we want to go. All the difficulties that have existed since before the T.L.A. still continue in existence, and we have seen no change at all. I would like to tell the hon. Minister that the independence call has not just started today. It is a call long started by the African people. It started right back in 1962 by the hon. Mr. Maninj wa and Paramount Chief Sabata. We all know that people want to be independent and those who understand know that ever since the inception of A the T.L.A. we have seen nothing but oppression . We have seen the only thing that is going on is the installation of a paramount chief and of new chiefs, but the people cannot come out in fairness to anyone and say we have attained this or that since the T.L.A. started.

H

us the date.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Is that why you wanted to know whether we were going to reply?

MR. SINABA: We have seen today the difficulties experienced by our people in looking for work. To our disgust and annoyance we understand that recently the call that came from recruiters for drivers and other workers was stopped by the Republicans Government. We are told that this labour recruiter was told not to employ anybody who has passed J.C. because a number of clerks had resigned from their jobs here to go to that work. It is true that that is happening. Coming to the hon. the Minister of the Interior, he seems to have forgotten that invited to that conference.

he was

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: unconstitutional . We could not go.

It was

AFTERNOON SESSION

MR.

SINABA: But you accepted invitations to

go. The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate on the granting of full independence to the Transkei was resumed.

MR . S.M. SINABA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, before I go on I would like to know if the movers of the amendments are not going to speak after me. THE CHAIRMAN: No. MR. SINABA: Thank you , Mr. Chairman. At this stage I feel I must say to everyone that the cat has fallen out of the bag. We know now where we are. The reaosn I say so is that the Government amendment falls right into line with mine. In my motion I did not put in any date for reasons known to me , and then I felt my Government would be able to support my motion. I feel the motion put forward by the hon. the Minister of Justice definitely should fall away.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: That was before we knew it was unconstitutional. MR. SINABA: I see no reason why the hon. the Minister of the Interior should go round in a panic state and say the Maluti people have never demanded independence. He went as far as to ask the regional authority if they knew anything about it. I would have preferred my leaders to have called another conference in the Maluti region because this arose from the mandate they had given me to go and tell the people what the Government has done. In our conference the people wanted to find out many things from me to which I could not reply. This whole aim of independence is to get basic human rights , abolishing all oppressive laws which have brought hardships on our people, such as separation of families because of the contracts they take to go to the mines. Not until we see these things removed shall we have any hope that things will be improved for us. For in-

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1 stance, our constitution does not carry any mandate from the people. There is nothing that we, the masses of the people outside , can claim is ours and that we can abide by it. Those are the reasons why the Transkei people feel and hope that the Transkei Government will give us a hearing on this matter. The Republican Government promised us long before that they would give us independence when we want it, and the Ministers who have replied and who are still to reply must not dwell on the hope as if they are the Republican Government. They have gone on so far as to say that if the Republican Government say this, what would we say. That should not be the question. The main thing is that we should come together. This motion just asks that the Republican Government grant us independence. It is a real shame to find our own black men blocking the way. It is not for you and meto say it is not right. That has never happened anywhere under the sun. A man is always regarded by his enemies as having no right to what he should have, but to have my own brother who sees my difficulties, who sees me oppressed, saying " Not yet" ད is a shame. The call now is coming that we want him to help us. It is coming and we want our leaders ན to lead us to independence. They must not tell us we have no right even to say so, because my party has never done so. The hon. the Minister of Justice said I did not even bring the motion to the party . I did, but I was not called on the day the meeting was held. It was the executive meeting on the 20th February. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You resigned before you brought forward your resolution.

内

MR. SINABA: No, I did not. I make a special

appeal to the Opposition party that they should 21 support this motion. It is so important that we should not play about in the matter. You have been accused of having no objective. You have been accused of doing nothing except to wait for the Govemment to raise a red flag and rush at it like mad bulls . That is PP what is happening in the Opposition party. You have never had an objective that we feel belongs to the people. Let me appeal to you to vote with me on this side. Do not wait for the Government. THE SECRETARY: The question before the House is a motion by the hon. Mr. S.M. Sinaba of the Maluti region " That in the opinion of this House the Transkeian Government consider the advisability of requesting the Republican Government to grant full independence to the Transkei " , to which an amendment has been moved by the hon. the Minister of Justice to delete all the words after " House" and substitute therefor "the Transkei is not ripe for independence at this stage" . A second amendment was moved by the hon. Mr. K.M. Guzana that all the

words after the word " grant" be deleted and the following words substituted therefor " all citizens of the Transkei their full citizenship rights in the Republic." I shall put the amendment moved by the hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. GUZANA: No the other amendment. That is the usual procedure.

THE SECRETARY: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, according to Gilpin it is not the order in which they were moved but how near they are to the motion. This one comes nearest to the motion. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I hold that the amendment which came in last must be put first to the House. THE CHAIRMAN: That is the right procedure. MR. GUZANA: We are not asking the Secretary to tell us what to do. We are telling him what to do. THE SECRETARY : I shall put the second amendment first, that moved by the hon . Mr. K.M. Guzana. If the amendment is agreed to the original motion falls away and I shall put the motion as amended.

MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman, I thought both amendments were amending the original motion, because the last amendment is not seconding the amendment that will have preference of standing against the original motion . If we do that it would mean we are prejudicing the original motion upon which both amendments are trying to give preference. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman, I think you are perfectly correct if you put the second amendment but you have to put it against the original motion. I do not know . ... . . MR. RAJ UILI: It is all right, Mr. Chairman, I have been correctly briefed on this side so he is waisting his time. THE SECRETARY: I shall put the question that all the words after the word "grant" be deleted and the following words substituted therefor " all citizens of the Transkei their full citizenship rights in the Republic' . The amendment was lost by 50 votes to 21 after a division as follows: -

AYES.

1

NOES.

Paramount Chief Sabata Dalindyebo Chief Ngangomhlaba Mtirara Mr. Mzimkulu Knowledge Guzana Mr. Jackson Balisile Nkosiyane Mr. Albert Madangatye Raziya Mr. Gebenga Arthur Sasa Chief Sandy S. Majeke Mr. Gotgot Nathan Jafta Miss Lillian Twetwa

Chief Dalingozi Gwebindlala Chief Jongulwandle Dumalisile Chief Bazindlovu Holomisa Chief Mgcawezulu Mtirara Chief Sophonia Moshesh Chief Isaac Matiwane Chief Dilizintaba Mditshwa Chief Ebenezer Mabandla Mr. Martin Hobden Canca Mr. Zwelibanzi Maneli Mabandla

Mr. Benjamin Sepirane Rajuili - 117-

Paramount Chief Victor Poto Chief Tutor Nyangilizwe Ndamsase Chief Douglas Dywabasini Prince Ndamase Mr. Lizo Arthur Luwaca Mr. Tolikana Mangala Mr. Clifford Madlavana Ndamase Mr. Walter Candulwandle Singata

Mr. Jonathan Mehlwana Sineke Chief Kaizer Dali wonga Matanzima Chief Zwelibanzi Velile Ndarala

5. 12

Chief Daluhlanga Gecelo Acting Chief Ndlakuse Stokwe Mr. George Mzim vubu Mhlobo Matanzima Mr. Bennett Beste Mdledle

L

Mr. Arthur Mlungisi Mfebe Mr. Robert Betram Msengana Chief Hardington Mtutuzeli Ngcongolo Chi ef Irvine Vulindlela Nkwenkwezi Paramount Chief Mzikayise Xolilizwe Sigcau Chieftainess Avis Nozizwe Sigcau Chief Adolphus Bungane Sigidi Chief Maboboti Mapasa Mr. Vulindawo Gwebindlala Mr. Punguzulu Samson Sigcau C Chief Neo Sibi Chief Jeremiah Moshesh Chief Wilson Ludidi Chief Solomon Maj eoa Lebenya Chief Marshall Lehana IC Mr. Mangqukele Shadrack Sinaba Chief Ferguson Gwadiso Paramount Chief Botha Manzolwandle sigcau Chief Jongilizwe Ntola Chief Gangata Baleni Chief Sigixana Langa Chief Nelson Sigcau Chief Mdabuka Mqikela Chief Stanford Sigcau Chief Sigwebo Mhlanga Acting Chief Comet Mzilwa Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo

Mr. Tamsanqa Homabrook Bubu Mr. Mkatali Walter Madikizela Mr. Citibunga Nicodemus Nog cantsi Mr. Kholisile Gordon Nota

Tellers: 1. K.G. Nota 2. A. Mfebe.

Chief Madlanya Tantsi Mr. Columbus Madikizela Chief Morris Misngapantsi Chief Ngqange Setuse Mr. Zebulon Chemane Mr. H.H. Nolutshungu

Tellers: 1. C.S. Mda. 2. J. Ntola. The amendment moved by the hon. the Minister of Justice was put and carried by 49 votes to 1, the Opposition abstaining.

MONDAY, 9TH MAY, 1966

The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.

HT

Prayers were read. THE SECRETARY: I shall now put the motion as amended " That in the opinion of this House the Transkei is not ripe for independence at this stage. " MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , this side of the House will abstain from voting.

to

The motion as amended was carried by 49 votes 1.

The minutes of Friday, 6th May, 1966, taken as read and confirmed.

were

MR. C.S. MDA: Mr. Chairman, I notice that my name is not among the Ayes in the division list. I suppose a mistake arose because I was one of the tellers. THE CHAIRMAN : I think the hon. member made a

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in view of the fact that we have come to the end of the order paper for today, I move that this House adjoums, but I would like to make mention of the fact that the members seem to have got used to the idea of going away very early on Fridays, in such a way that I have noticed a great deal of erosion and denudation of members from the Opposition benches. (Laughter) The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 9th May, 1966.

mistake by not voting himself. The number given is 21 . MR. MDA: You will notice that the hon. ML Mfebe was also a teller on the Opposition benches, but I remember marking his name myself as voting with the Government. THE CHAIRMAN : It should have been 22 instead of 21 if your name had appeared. MR. MDA: In that case the wrong number of 21 was given in the absence of my name.

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THE CHAIRMAN: There is nothing with the recorders. It is the fault of you tellers. You cannot alter that number of 21. MR. MDA: But it is wrong, Sir. THE CHAIRMAN: That is not our fault. MR. MDA: My contention is that when I was counting on the Government benches the tellers on the other side were also counting and they submitted their list before asking me to vote. They should have included me and counted me among the Opposition number. They did not come to me to register my vote, neither did we go to Mr. Mfebe to register his vote because it was understood that he was voting for the Government and so we marked his name accordingly. THE CHAIRMAN: Who were the tellers on that side?

MR. MDA: Mr. Mfebe and Mr. Nota. THE CHAIRMAN: So you cannot blame us. You must blame the tellers. The number is only 21 and you cannot change that now.

ANNOUNCEMENT . THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members, I notice that quite a number of members when they went out for lunch on Friday did not return to this House. I want the members to realise that they have come here for the benefit of their people and they must not rush home on Friday before we have closed. I think all the members who do not return on Friday afternoons will not get their pay on Friday. It is the same on Mondays. You can see some of the members have not yet returned.

TRANSKEIAN STANDING RULES AND ORDERS BILL THIRD READING. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move that the Transkeian Standing Rules and Orders Bill, 1966, be read a third time. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I second. Agreed to. The Bill was read a third time.

3

TRANSKEIAN APPROPRIATION BILL, 1966 : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I move that the House resolve itself into committee of supply. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I second, Mr. Chairman.

Agreed to. House in Committee POLICY SPEECH OF THE CHIEF MINISTER AND MINISTER OF FINANCE : 1966. Mr. Chairman and honourable members of the Legislative Assembly:

Once again I am today privileged to be able to rise in this House and to give an account of the administration of the Departments under my care during the past year i.e. the departments of the Chief Minister and Finance. As Chief Minister and leader of the governing party in this House I intend again to deal briefly with a few , what may be termed political issues before proceeding to actual administrative matters concerning my Departments. In the first place I wish to place on record the great indebtedness of my Government and the people of the Transkei towards the Republic of South Africa for its generosity and sympathetic approach towards the Transkei, especially during the past number of years. I think the facts are, or ought to be in any case, well-known to everybody · but recapitulation thereof can certainly do no harm. I wish to recall that during 1959 in an exposition on the aims and practical implementations of the policy of separate development the Prime Minister of South Africa made it known that he was prepared to grant self-government to the Bantu people of South Africa in their own Bantu Homelands. Very soon thereafter in 1961 the leaders of the people in the Transkei which is the biggest and most important Bantu Homeland in South Africa asked that selfgovernment be granted to the Transkei in terms of this policy. This request was acceded to and in 1963 the Transkei Constitution Act embodying the wishes of the Transkeian people was adopted. Not only was a large measure of self- government granted to the Transkei in terms of that Constitution but provision was made therein for a Transkei Flag, recognition was given to our own National Anthem and our Xhosa language was elevated to an official language of the Transkei. Since then it has further been our experience that we were assisted by the Republican Government with sufficient capital to carry out our administrative duties properly and to develop our country. Experienced officials were placed at our disposal to carry out the manifold administrative duties, to train our own people and to lay solid foundations for our developing state. Buildings, vehicles , equipment and machinery in use in the Transkei were handed over to us. Last year a special Xhosa Development Corporation was established to expedite the industrial development of our Territory and very recently all the Trust land in the Transkei was transferred to the Transkeian Govemment.

White South Africa has indeed proved itself to be a true and magnanimous friend of the Bantu people in the Transkei and we have experienced many blessings as a result of the application of the policy . of separate development, · blessings for which we are truly grateful. As a result of this approach and this policy South Africa is today , and will remain indefinitely, the glittering jewel on the continent of Africa. We, the Transkeian Government , have set ourselves firmly on the road of separate development. We sincerely believe this to be the only policy that will ensure peace, harmony and progress in South Africa. We are determined to clasp this hand of frienship extended to us; to maintain cordial and friendly relations with White South Africa; to progress peacefully,

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and to develop by an evolutionary process

towards autonomy. To give an overall picture of the state of affairs in the Transkei generally I can with honesty say, and I believe all the members of this House will agree with me, that the past year has been a very peaceful year. I must congratulate the South African Police and the Transkeian Police for maintaining this state of general peacefulness, for ensuring law and order in the Transkei and for keeping crime at such a very low ebb. The administration in our public service was carried out competently and without any disruption. The training of our own Bantu staff is progressing well. Plans are afoot in the Department of Interior for the extension of social services. The Education Department is planning important expansions of the educational facilities in the Transkei . The roads in the Transkei are at present better than ever before and the Department of Roads and works is now giving priority attention to their school and other building programmes. In the agricultural field more progress has been made and bigger schemes in connection with the production of new and hitherto unknown crops in the Transkei such as tea, coffee , etc. have been planned than ever before in any similar period of time. In the whole of the Transkei one witnesses

as well again explain my standpoint and that of my Government about this issue. We believe in autonomy as an ultimate aim but we are convinced that political independence should go hand in hand with economic independence. For the Transkei there is still a long road ahead. We have just taken the first steps on the ladder leading to independence . To hasten this process artificially is very irresponsible and can only lead to chaos, bloodshed and retrogression such as is now being experienced in many countries elsewhere in Africa where independence was grabbed prematurely by power-hungry leaders. We must lead our people responsibly and tackle our many and one- M rous tasks first, tasks which to my mind are pretasks such as the requisites to independence general upliftment and education of our people, the development of our land and its natural resources, and the attainment of full viability and economic independence.

Mr. Chairman I will now deal in more detail with the administration of the three main branches of my R Department i.e. the Financial Branch, the Legislative Assembly Branch and the Public Service Commission.

today planning, progress and peaceful development.

The Treasury Division.

This state of peaceful co- existence in South Africa and sensible progressive development in the Transkei, however, seems to be gall and vinegar to some. Apart from the now so monotonous and illinformed criticism of South Africa abroad and from

With regard to the portfolio of Finance I do not propose to say anything more on financial and economic policy as this aspect has been amply covered in my budget statement.

some ignorant members on the opposite side we find that the opposition press in South Africa itself is

However, as my Vote includes the expenditure to be incurred in connection with the portfolio of

continually trying by sensational reports to drive in wedges and to disturb the friendly relationship between this Government and the Republican Government.

Chief Minister I feel in duty bound to speak on policy conceming other matters for which my Departis responsible, particularly those relating to the Public Service Commission's Office , the

I wish to quote at random a few examples of this irresponsible and sensational report ing. When we in this House adopted an educational policy which in certain respects differed from the Bantu Education policy in the Republic it was hailed " as a severe setback and rejection of one of the pillars of separate development" . If I claim that the riches of the Transkei should be reserved for the Bantu people of the Transkei and that the Whites should progressively withdraw from the Transkei it is blown up as "a slashing attack on the Whites " . If I make certain representations to the South African Government in connection with the employment of a particular individual about whom the Republican Government as guardians of the intemal security of South Africa as a whole has certain doubts it is blurted out as a "Crisis over the Ndamse Affair" . If a particular member of my party irresponsibly demands independence prematurely and in consequence thereof leaves the party ranks without a single parliamentary follower then a local paper reports that "the whole Transkei is seething over the independence issue" .

Legislative Assembly, Chiefs and Headmen, Tribal and Regional Authorities and generally all matters of a political shade.

It has of course become accepted practice t that, when the Chief Minister's Vote is under consideration, there should be no limitation whatsoever of the subjects which may be debated and perhaps it would be just as well for me to assure members that financial administration is still functioning as smoothly as ever and that my Finance Section has at all times received the closest co-operation from the Controller and Auditor-General's office in applying its strict control of the Transkei's finances. This section has also brought out comprehensive Tender Board Instructions, which were tabled here a few days ago, and has, after protracted negotiations with the Republic authorities succeeded . in having all records relating to stores and equipment taken over from the Bantu Trust, transferred to the relevant departments. The Transkeian Trea sury has assumed full control of such stores and equipment.

I can assure these scaremongers and warmongers that the Transkei has in no way whatsoever rejected apartheid, is friendly disposed towards the Whites , has experienced no crises, is not concerned over the independence issue and the most cordial and friendly relations in fact exist with the Republican Govemment. Whilst on the subject of independence I can just

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In the Accounts Section modern accounting machines have been installed and the salaries of teachers and officers are, in fact, already being handled by these machines. Before long the voters' roll and social pension payments will be similarly t mechanised. I may mention too that, because of expansion, 20 new posts have been created and filled in the Central Accounts Branch .

The Legislative Assembly Division.

1

S 11

EX

Since my last policy speech the zoning of the Transkeian towns and villages has been completed and all matters arising from the zoning, land transactions, transfers and permits are now being handled by the Department of Interior whereas my Department concerns itself with the Municipal Control aspects in these towns. The signing of the Transkei Authorities Act, 1965, by the State President was unfortunately delayed and as a result of this many authorities have still not been reconstituted in terms of the new Act. Strenuous efforts are, however, being made to ensure that the reconstitution of the remaining authorities takes place as soon as possible. New regulations have also recently been published for Transkeian authorities which have considerably simplified procedures. During the last year authorities were assisted by my Department to the extent of almost R39,000. This money was largely spent on roads, buildings, shows, clinics and scholarships. Mr. Chairman in this connection it was most heartening to find many authorities helping themselves more and more instead of always running to this Department. I can quote the example of one tribal authority that erected a substantial court room and offices without assistance from my Department and only after the building was completed asked for assistance in respect of furniture. The Parliamentary library is still being steadily built up but my Department is being handicapped in this connection by the lack of a qualified librarian. Repeated advertisements for a suitably qualified person have brought no response. Mention must be made of a substantial donation in the form of books by the Standard Bank of South Africa towards our Library.

I

The word in connection with the archives has continued apace and as was forecast in my last policy speech a Bantu Archivist was appointed in June last year. As a further step in the creation ofour own archivist service a second Bantu archivist was appointed in April of this year. Both men are undergoing both practical and theoretical training.

f

H

Planning in connection with the establishment of our own museum is making progress and the the well -known Broster collection of Qwathi beadwork has been acquired by the Transkeian Govemment. I regret to report, however, once again that the response from the public for articles to be placed in the museum has not been any better this year than last. During the last year various chiefs and headmen were appointed and installed. In this connection the most important installation was that of the paramount chief of the AmaXhosa after the sad demise of the late Paramount Chief Zwelidumile Sigcau and as members know a new paramount chieftainship was created during the year in Emigrant Tembuland. A new improved scale of retiring allowances has been approved for chiefs and headmen. The previous minimum which a headman could receive as a pension was for instance R18.00 per annum whereas the minimum on the new scale is R48.00 representing an increase of 300%. The maximum

used to be R24.00. The new scale does not lay down a maximum but provides for the pension to be increased according to the number of years ' good service 'the headman had. Another very important matter with which my Department took the initiative during the year under review was the planning of a proper administrative complex in Umtata. As members know, only my own Department and the Department of Agriculture and Forestry are housed in suitable buildings. The other four Departments are housed in temporary prefabricated buildings or in very old and unsatisfactory offices. This state of affairs hampers sound administration. Owing to the general scarcity of vacant building plots in central Umtata and because of other unavoidable delays no progress to provide office accommodation was made during the past two years with the result that temporary prefabricated wooden offices have been springing up all over town and the proposed permanent offices were planned for wherever sites were available · and these also were scattered all over the Town. We felt that a proper and dignified administrative centre should be planned where provision could be made for the present and future office requirements of the Transkeian Government. A Committee was consequently appointed in October of last year under the Chairmanship of the Secretary of my Department and with the Secretaries of Interior and Roads and Works as members to investigate the whole matter.

Without going into too much detail I wish to advise honourable members that this Committee did very sterling work. After proper investigations and consultations with all concerned the block of land on which the Magistrate's Courts presently stand , this block on which the Legislative Assembly stands and the recreation grounds adjoining this block have now been earmarked for the Transkeian Administrative complex in Umtata. The first stage of the scheme will be the lay-out and development of the block where the Magistrate's Courts presently are and will cost approximately R1,000,000. Architects have already been appointed and their plans are ready. The plans provide for new dignified Magistrate's Courts, the Justice Department Head Office and a High Court on the lower portion of the block facing the Town Hall and at the back of the block where the Justice Offices presently are will rise an imposing five-storied building to house the Departments of Interior, Education and Roads and Works. Building operations are expected to commence during the next few months and this stage of the scheme should be completed in 1970. The second stage of the scheme will be the development of the rest of the block on which this Legislative Assembly stands to house future Transkeian Departments and the third and last stage will be the erection eventually of imposing new Parliamentary Buildings on the recreation grounds adjoining this building. The Public Service Commission. As regards the activities of this Branch of my Department I have to mention at the outset that the Commission's Office was, during 1965, inundated with requests from the various departments for the inspection of branches, divisions and sections. The staff tried to keep abreast of the work and during this year the Commission's Office succeeded

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in carrying out inspections at 11 magistrates offices; 15 accommodation investigations; 33 ad hoc establishment inspections ; a large number of investigations in connection with the purchase of labour saving devices, and an inspection of the Accounts Branch of my Department to determine the staff required for the local payment of teachers' salaries, social pensions, etc. on a mechanised system of accounting. At the same time a general inspection of the Departments of Education and Roads and Works is now being undertaken.

As a result of these inspections the total fixed establishment of the Government Service was increased by 346 posts (roughly 14%) from 2475 posts at the end of 1964 to 2821 posts at the end of 1965 of which 382 are presently still filled by Whites officials . Coupled with the fact that 45 seconded Republican officials were withdrawn during 1965 and had to be replaced by Transkeian officials , the Commission was hard-pressed to fill roughly 390 new posts of various gradings . During the year under review two of the most senior officials, viz. Mr. Kriel, the Under-secretary of my Department, and Mr. C. T. Grobler, the Chief Clerk in the Legislative Assembly branch, were withdrawn to the Republic without any replacement. Although the staff wastage (mostly resignations) during 1965 amounted to only 42% of the total establishment, it can be foreseen that as the Transkeian Government Service is expanding and more and more posts are filled by Transkeian citizens, the Commission will have to resort to and fully exploit such recruiting measures as advertising of vacancies, recruiting drives and active propaga tion of the employment opportunities offered by the Government Service. What is exceptionally pleasing to note, is the number of applications for employment received from Transkei an citizens who are employed in the Republican Public Service, Swaziland and Basutoland. Apart from the appointments made by the Commission, a large number of officers have been promoted to vacant posts in all the spheres of employment offered by the Government Service. As full details of these promotions are contained in the Commission's Annual Report which will be tabled during this session of the Legislative Assembly, I only want to make mention of the fact that during 1965, 104 officers in the service were promoted to a wide variety of higher posts whilst a further 55 clerical officers have already been promoted to higher posts during the first 3 months of this year. From the foregoing it is clear that there is no reason for anxiety as far as the filling of the lower and middle-graded posts in the Government Service is concemed as a satisfactory number of candidates for such posts is readily available. The filling of professional, technical and senior administrative posts is, however, a matter of concern. The only solution to this problem is to train suitable candidates for such posts and to award more University bursaries. In this connection I may mention the introduction of a Faculty of Agriculture at the University College of Fort Hare from the beginning of this year and the Government has already decided to grant bursaries to promising candidates to pursue

their studies at that University for the B.Sc. (Agric.) degree. I may add that our negotiations with Repu blican authorities for the introduction of study facilities for Land Surveyors, Engineers, etc. are also making satisfactory progress and it is hoped that the first bursaries in these directions will be granted next year. Likewise it is hoped that with the establishment of a technical college for the Transkei , a project which is receiving the earnest E attention of my Government, the facilities will be created whereby Transkeian citizens can be trained for those technical posts in respect of which a dearth of candidates is at present experienced. Unfortunately the scheme whereby law students are financially assisted with their studies has so far not bome the fruits expected of it. During 1965 a total of 21 officers availed themselves of the privilege of having their studies 50% subsidised by the Govemment Service but only 11 of them were allowed to sit for the examinations. However, the R results obtained by these 11 candidates were so discouraging that the Commission is at present giving serious consideration to the introduction of a basis of departmental tuition whereby the relative R students will be assisted, prior to the examinations, by a legally qualified officer of the Department of Justice in their preparation for the examinations. In addition to the aforementioned formal training conducted by institutions outside the Government Service, great progress has also been made with the training of officials in the Government Service. E During 1965. a total of 47 officers of the clerical grades attended training courses in supervision conducted by the Training Section of the Commission's Office . The interest shown by the trainees and the results achieved by them were very encouraging. I am convinced that this training will not only better equip the officers for their present tasks but will also contribute towards their efficient performance of the more responsible administrative duties required of senior officials in the Service. I thank you, Mr. Chairman and honourable members and ask you to approve the policy and administration of my Departments. I move the adoption of Vote I.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members, I want to remind you that each member can have ten minutes although he is allowed to speak on each Vote three times. The Vote is now open to discussion if the Leader ofthe E Opposition wishes to say anything. MR. K.M. GUZANA : Mr. Chairman and hon. " members , I am asked to perform the impossible and digest this and reduce it to less than one per cent of its size. I think the hon. the Minister of Finance should be thankful that we are only limited to ten minutes because he gets away with quite a lot and does not give us a chance to tear him up. Because of the policies he has initiated in his speech I feel we must show our displeasure by moving a reduction t of Vote I by an amount of R2,000 in respect of sub-head A · Chief Minister. You will notice that we have not altogether moved that he should not receive a salary, but this is by way of a censure on his policy. He has sought to convey the erroneous impression to this House that the cordial relationship existing between this Government and the Republican Government is based on the acceptance of the policy of separate development by the people of the Trans-

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kei , yet may I point out that since this House has a Government party and an Opposition, the cordial relationships are not based on the fact that the Government in power is an apartheid Government. It is just that the Govemment of the Republic of South Africa has decided to give financial assistance to the Transkei and to regard the development of the Transkei benevolently, irrespective of the party in power and its policy. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: Would you have those cordial relationships if there was a multiracial govemment in the Transkei , which is contrary to the policy of South Africa? MR. GUZANA: If this side of the House was in power then the relationship between this Government and the Republic of South Africa would be more cordial than they are at the present moment. For instance, the disability under which a citizen of the Transkei has suffered as a result of your being in power would have been anticipated by negotiations with the Republican Government before anything was done. I wish further to point out that the peace that we are enjoying in the Transkei is not solely due to the presence of the South African Police and the Transkei Police force. I think the African as a whole is a very docile and law-abiding person... THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Without Ahrenstein. MR. GUZANA: .... and he will give even "apartheidists" a chance to try themselves out and you may mistake this as an endorsement of the policy of apartheid when in effect the African is saying: Let me see how he will walk along this road. But that does not necessarily mean that the Transkei citizen endorses the policy of apartheid. Indeed the cordial relationships existing between the Africans, Europeans and Coloured peoples in the Transkei seem to indicate that they would like to continue to live together peacefully as members of a multi-racial society. In fact, the very fact that there has been that cordial relationship is a severe indictment on the policy of the Government party which seems to want to whip up anti-whitism in the Transkei citizen. (You will realise , Mr. Chairman that I am also assisting the interpreter and I will need another five minutes or more. ) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Carry on.

MR. GUZANA: I shall carry on , Mr. Chairman you won't stop me ! Now, Sir, you have made reference to the delay in the signing of the Transkei Authorities Act which has resulted in the breakdown of the administrative machinery in the various regional divisions of the Transkei. I wonder if you would tell this House whether there was not a hiatus - a period between the lapsing of the previous procla mation relating to Bantu authorities and the signing of the Transkei Authorities Bill which then became an Act. If my facts are correct, there was a time when there was no machinery controlling chiefs, and since that is so this Department is failing in its duty to exercise a supervisory control on its administrative officers. In fact at one time they let them loose on the veld, as it were, without any control whatsoever. You also indicated, Sir, that you have improved the minimum allowance to retiring chiefs and headmen. I wonder if "chief" includes paramount chiefs? Now you have indicated that the amount that will be paid to each of these men will

depend upon the period of service, but you have not indicated what your criteria will be for deciding and fixing the amount actually to be received by the retiring chief or headman. The fear of this side of the House is that there may be an arbitrary mode of determining how much will be paid to a chief by way of pension, and these chiefs who are political supporters of the Government party may be in for a bigger slice than chiefs who support the Opposition. Can the hon. the Minister of Finance disabuse us of that apprehension, and in doing so lay down specifically the rules and regulations that will control the award of pensions to these retired chiefs. Before I sit down, Mr. Chairman, may I refer to the report of the Public Service Commission which always sidesteps this debate. Last year the Public Service Commission's report was put in, I think, two weeks after the Ministers of the various departments had addressed this Assembly on their policy speeches. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : It has been tabled, Sir. MR. GUZANA: When - today? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: A few days ago. MR. GUZANA: I am glad to know that it has been tabled, Sir, but it has not come to our notice. I remember consulting one of the Secretaries whilst the hon. the Minister of Finance was speaking to us about another matter which was referred to as having been tabled, which did not seem to be there. Last, but not least, the hon. Minister has indicated his pleasure over the fact that Transkeian citizens are coming back from Basutoland, Swaziland and from the Republican civil service voluntarily, but they coming back voluntarily from Basutoland and Swaziland? Because if I know what is happening it is that their passports are cancelled or withdrawn and they have no alternative but to return. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : They apply for work. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Is there a seconder to the amendment? CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: Mr. second the amendment.

Chairman,

I

MR. H.H. NOLUTSHUNGU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise to support the Transkei Appropriation Bill as laid before the House by the hon. the Minister of Finance , especially as the vote is based on things achieved and things which are hoped for, dating back to 1963. Among the things that have been achieved and discussed recently in respect of the Transkei are the new flag and the financial assistance we have been given by the Republican Government. The hon. Minister also made mention of the help extended to us by the South African Police and also the Transkei Police, whereby through their activities and the carrying out of their duties we have been able to enjoy much peace in this country. Indeed it is the Goverment which helps to put down all those who are trying to disturb the peace. On that account we ought to take off our hats to the Govemment party because it is through their efforts that the chiefs enjoy the life and peace they do. (Interjections ) The progress made with regard to roads is also amazing. Those who have visited Umzimkulu area will see that the roads are in very good repair and the roads leading away from

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Umzimkulu are easy to travel on. In spite of all these enlightening talks that are being given, complaints are still made that the roads are not progressing but when a child is leaming to crawl we do not attempt to make it run. It is like telling a child who has just learnt to speak that it can now be married. (Laughter) What would be the final outcome of such marriage, because then there would be children in that home born of different fathers. (Interjections) It is for that reason that while we finally want to attain independence, let it come at the right time. Let us not be in a hurry so that we can acquire those things which we need, for we shall become a laughing-stock if we get independence before we are ready for it. (Interjections) Indeed you yourselves will tum us into a laughing-stock. To be brief, Mr. Chairman , let me say that what the Government has achieved is really amazing. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to support this amendment because it asks that the salary of the Chief Minister should be halved. You will note that on page 2 of the budget the vote to lower authorities has been reduced and in the report they over-estimated last year. That vote helps development in the lower courts. Does the development not increase and advance as the years advance? Will the development in these lower courts therefore remain at the figure of R50,000 for all time? I will give an instance with regard to the agricultural shows. This amount of money was actually used to improve and develop the exhibits at the shows. Is it not therefore the duty of the Government to extend it so that the people who bring these exhibits should improve them as the years advance? Can we take it that the Government is satisfied? Do they not wish to improve agricultural production? I once had a conversation with a traveller from Palestine and he told me that the Transkei is in a better position than the country but in his opinion the Transkei was gradually getting into the same condition as Palestine. He mentioned that it was the duty of the Govemment to help educate the people to use the land properly. GOVERNMENT

MEMBERS:

But you don't want

that. CHIEF NDAMASE: I will ask the Opposition members not to worry too much about the hon. the Minister of Agriculture. He does not want to be advised. Now referring to the hon. the Minister of Finance, in sub-head L he shows that he has not got a reserve fund. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : I have got sufficient money for that. (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please.

it is the first time I have ever heard a Govemment say they have enough money.

The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION . The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate on Vote I of the Transkei Appropria tion Bill was resumed. CHIEF M. TANTSI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support the policy statement placed before us by the hon. the Minister of Finance. I am for the Government and I am for this party. I hope the hon. members will appreciate what I have to say. I want to say something now to the Opposition. With this Transkei Govemment the money is put to proper use. You have already heard the projects which have been described for you. Anybody who has not heard has had his ears closed , but I think we on this side of the House have our ears open. To come to your complaint about how the money is used, who has ever emptied his store hut? If you say, as you do say, that the treasury must be emptied when it is for your benefit, will you be doing the proper thing by emptying your coffers? I personally say there should be a reserve fund and that reserve will in time be augmented and then it will be time for you to say what must be done, when we have decided that the coffers are full. I ask you to have patience. You have accepted the Government and now you stab it in the back by making extravagant demands . (Interjections) We as a party can level no criticism against the Government. We say it is doing well. You are constantly referring to the Qaukeni region and alleging that there are certain things which are improperly done there. I belong to the Qaukeni region and we in the Qaukeni region are unanimously behind the Government. There is not a single person who opposes the Government there. We are excepting the elected members who have come here on their own and who are not the representatives of the people. (Interjections) I am sorry because I have not heard a single word about Qaukeni doing well from their lips. We in the Qaukeni region have received a lot from this Government for which we are very grateful and against which there is no complaint. I was surprised to hear that no meetings are held by that party for the people. They allege that we oppose those meetings. The Paramount Chief has stated that he has not been interviewed by anvbody making application to hold meetings. He has no objection against any timeous request to hold meetings. I am not going to be lengthy but all I suggest to you is that you just sit down and remain in peace. You are not going to be successful in effecting any change.

CHIEF NDAMASE: If he has got enough for this reserve...

MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to support the amendment that the salary of the hon. the Chief Minister should be reduced. I

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: I have sufficient over · R2 million.

am going to touch briefly on points which he mentioned in his speech. The first thing he mentioned is about social welfare, a department which is of importance in the lives of the people of the Transkei. In fact, to have only one welfare officer is retarding our progress. I may mention that this department is more important than any other department in the lives of Transkeians. When I make this comparison I would say an eye is more important than an ear, but another person might say an ear is more important than an eye. On this dpeartment depend the lives

CHIEF NDAMASE: The money in the reserve fund has done quite a lot, especially with regard to relief work in the Matatiele and Mount Fletcher areas. Further, that relief fund was used to investigate the sugar industry in the Transkei . As it is very evident that there is plenty of work to be done with this reserve fund, why has it not been done? (Interjections) He might even have R2 million, but

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of many people, especially the lower classes. The failure of this department to act strongly results in the death of many people in the Transkei. I would like the official in charge of that department to take it to heart that the social workers should work for benefit of the people of the Transkei. Let me pass on now to the tea and coffee which have been the subject of much talk. It seems to me that more is said about it than it merits. They are talking about things which are still far from realisation . There might be some success in these Lambasi experiments , but it is not a thing which need be spoken about so loudly when people are starving. Why do you not talk about wheat which is easily grown all over the Transkei? The people have not demanded tea and you do not talk about wheat which the people must have. It is a necessity. (Interjections) Let me go further and talk about the roads . You said in your policy speech that the roads are so good but ever since your Government took over there have been roads which are too bad to travel on, whereas before they were travellable. You spoke at length about the withdrawal of the Europeans amongst us. We do not support that idea because their presence amongst us is a help to us and to them. We should go together towards civilization . You also spoke about a matter which had some bearing on Mr. Ndamse, and you said we should stop talking about it. The reason why we speak about it is because of the money which was involved in this affair. That money belongs to the Transkei at large. It was our desire as a tribe to find out how these moneys were paid out. That was the only reason why we wanted to know about that affair. It was our right as inhabitants of the Transkei.

CHIEF J. NTOLA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I also stand up to associate myself with the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Finance. It is quite true that much has been done for us and for our development in the Transkei, especially as far as education is concerned. We are also thankful 3 for the development seen in the proposed technical school because education is important to any nation , as it is the backbone of a people. In connection with agriculture, here again we have seen development for which we are thankful and which are proofs that this Government is doing a lot for the people Eof the Transkei. You have seen that tea, coffee, sugar, etc. , are being grown at Lambasi and that is not the end of development in that area. You have just been told that as far as independence is concemed the time is not yet ripe for that. (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please.

MR. S.M. SINABA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, we have listened to the report of the hon. the Minister of Finance which to me appears as pauper's relief. It is so small, hon . members , that when we look at it we find that we shall never, even when we are promised, get anywhere. We have been told that we are not ready for independence. How can we , if we get so small an allowance , overcome that? If we compare expenditure in one department only you will find that it is so small it will get us nowhere. The hon. the Minister of Finance says we must move step by step on the ladder to independence . What are we doing now? Are we a state? Are we a province? We would like to know, because before going anywhere , to independence or anything else, What are we doing now? Are we a state? Are we a province? We would like to know, because before going anywhere , to independence or anything else, we must know what we are . (Interjections) We have heard of one of our members being prevented from going overseas when he was obliged to apply to the Republican Government for a passport. We want our Minister of the Interior to do that , not the Department of the Interior of the Republic. We say the same in regard to the Department of Justice . If anybody has done anything wrong or has to be banned , we expect our Minister of Justice to issue the banning order , because if the Republican Government has found anyone has done wrong they must act in consultation with the Transkei Government . We are not content to see the Republican Minister of Justice banning a Transkeian. It gives us to think that one day we may suddenly see our own Minister of Justice banned himself. (Laughter) With regard to having independence before economic viability , there is no country which is viably independent. All countries depend on each other. What are we? A state or a province? It is said that the Europeans are leaving the Transkei but that has not been proved to us yet and we still see others coming in. We would like to know how many have gone and how many have come in since this Government took over. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : None have come in. MR . SINABA : But we see big blocks of buildings going up all over Umtata. Whose are they? Are they for the Whites or the Blacks? The hon. the Chief Minister said that if we want independence too soon we will be led into chaos , bloodshed , etc. What is going to cause that? Why is it not happening now? Those are the questions in our minds. He gave an example of independent states in the north, the African states which grabbed independence , but what about Smith? Has he done wrong? Is it because it is only a black man who has been led to chaos?

CHIEF NTOLA: It must also be remembered that there are certain departments which have not yet been handed over to the Transkei Government, such as the Department of Posts and Telegraphs . There should be enough training so that we should have railway drivers and so on. We should be grateful to the Transkei Government for zoning our towns. If the Government has enough money we will buy property in these towns. We are also thankful to the Government for the promotion of 104 officials in 1965, and also the promotion of 45 clerks who filled certain posts. We are thankful to the Republican Government for granting us self-government which they promised us in 1959. We are thankful for the Transkei flag because no nation is without its own flag. There was a suggestion from the Opposition that there should be only one flag, but we do not support that idea.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Do you want to emulate Smith? MR. SINABA: I am pointing out the difference , because Smith is a white man and the Government seems to condone anything that is done by the White man. If we are promised things about the zoning and the withdrawal of the Whites , we would like to see it being enacted . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : We have given you the figures . MR . SINABA: But the figures only are known. We would like to see it happening outside , then we can realise that we are going somewhere.

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THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It does not matter

goog

whether you go east or west.

matter.

MR. SINABA: It does not matter whether we are going up or down. All that we want is faith thatthe Government is going in the right direction . We have not seen any improvements in our own area and we see all over that the same thing has been going on, The suffering has been going on. The hon . the Minister of Finance mentioned that I left the party without a single member of Parliament following me. You know that on that side most of your followers are civil servants but most of them support me.

MR. GUZANA: Can you give us the formula?

12 1

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The formula is period of service . MR . GUZANA: We will call that (a). THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : If there is no

1

(b)? MR. GUZANA: We want the (b).

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: Mr. Chairman , I think I shall get confused , so I should reply to the most intelligent matters put before the House at this stage so that when the other speakers speak I can reply to them as well. THE DEPUTY closed the debate .

CHAIRMAN :

I have

not yet

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : No, I am not closing the debate . I am entitled to speak for ten minutes, just to reply to the speakers . I want to start with the hon. member for Maluti who has just sat down. Whenever he speaks he says " we" instead of "I". I do not know to whom he refers when he says "we" because he is the only voice in this House who speaks for his party and as far as I know he has no supporters outside this House . He alleged in the newspapers that he had the support of the Maluti people and they had sent him to support a claim for independence in this House , but we have more than ten members from Maluti on this side and also on the Opposition benches , who are not in a position to support him. Now this House would be interested to know who advised him to bring up this silly claim for independence at this stage . In any event it is ridiculous for him to say that many countries have attained a political independence before being economically viable . We can just dismiss his claim as political drunkenness . (Laughter) I wish at this stage to refer to the remarks put forward by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition when he commented on my speech with regard to the late signing of the Transkei Authorities Act . I do not think he can in any way blame the Department of the Chief Minister for that. MR. GUZANA: Was there a hiatus? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: I just want to inform him that there was such a time between the 31st December, 1965, and the 11th February, 1966 , when the authorities were not legally constituted. This was, however, no fault of my Department. MR. GUZANA: Whom would you blame? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Administrative steps were undertaken to overcome this programme during that period and validating legislation is still to be introduced during this session.

MR . GUZANA : So there is nobody to blame? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: As you know, this was a matter of correspondence between my Department and Pretoria. With regard to pensions for chiefs and headmen, these pensions which are to be awarded to retiring chiefs and headmen are calculated on a pre-determined mathematical basis , and the Chief Minister has no discretion in the

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : No , I am telling you that is how it is calculated on the period of service . MR. GUZANA: How much does he get per year? Assuming that the period of service is twenty years, do you take a five year period and give him so much, and ten years and give him so much?

b

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Unfortunately I have not got the figures with me. We went through this as a Government and you can get the figures if you go to my Department. Now the hon. the Leader of the Opposition asserted that even if the Opposition were in power the Republican Government would continue to show good will and co-operation. &G I only want to dismiss that by saying that fortunately the Opposition members will never form a Government. MR . GUZANA: Why don't you try it out? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: There will therefore never be a crisis in South Africa, but if that would ever happen at all , I dread what would happen. I also want to report that the Transkei citizens who came from Swaziland and Basutoland applied for the posts . They were never ejected from those countries .

MR. GUZANA: We did not say they were ejected. I know of one whose passport was cancelled and who has had to come here and take a post in the Government service . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: If his passport was cancelled , it was not the responsibility of the Government. Now coming to the remarks by the hon. Chief D.D.P. Ndamase , I just want to tell him that the amount which is given to lower authorities as a subsidy will depend on the tasks that are undertaken by those authorities . The amount of R50,000 can become either higher or lower, depending on the services which are performed by those authorities themselves . You do not expect the Government to estimate for services which are not performed. This decrease of R10,000 shows that the authorities themselves did not perform any services. With regard to the development or reserve fund , it is not normally used for relief work. That money is set aside for unforeseen circumstances , such as snow on the Maluti mountains . Normal relief works are financed by the departments out of their own estimates. " MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman , just before the Chief Minister sits down, I would like him to explain the item under Vote I , sub-head J, paragraph 2, on page 5. It says "Presents and rations to Chiefs , Headmen and followers , etc." Who are these followers? Are they political followers , tribal or adminis-

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trative followers? Has this allowance ever been paid to the follower of a headman in the Opposition? What do they get this allowance for? I am a strong follower of the Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland and Tembuland and I have not come by this present or this ration. (Laughter) If I could just get an objective explanation on that point, Sir?. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: This amount is for meals for chiefs and headmen who attend these tribal court meetings . It is done in certain districts where the magistrate decided to have a meal prepared for the chiefs and headmen. MR. GUZANA: Yes , that is under "rations" . what about the presents? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: I was saying also their followers , irrespective of political allegiance . With regard to presents , normally when we 501 install a chief, not a headman , we usually present something as a token of appreciation from the Government . MR. GUZANA: Appreciating what? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Appreciating his appointment to the chieftainship . MR. GUZANA : Is it not hereditary? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Yes , and you are pleased that the time has come for him to take over his duties.

MR. GUZANA: How much do you give? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : A saddle and bridle, or perhaps a briefcase . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , I shall now allow one speaker on the Opposition side and one speaker on the Government side . CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I regret very much that the hon. the Minister of Finance in one breath says that the Transkei has not enough funds , and in the next breath he says that it is able to stand on its own as far as finances are concerned. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Where do you get that?

CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : In your statement -1 you gave out that you had a surplus of R2 million, and on page 29 of the Estimates , in part 2 there is a paragraph which says "Additional sum to be appropriated by the Republican Parliament" but we are not given anything under that head. That is what I am referring to, because you said we had enough funds and then in another speech you said there is not enough money in the Transkei. I have never known a Government to say they have enough funds . Even the Republican Government depends on other countries for its funds. It should be the policy of all Government to see to the development of their countries from year to year, but in the Transkei evidently we are not developing sufficiently because we have not budgeted for that development. Your departments have commissions which should advise the Government as to the requirements in each department. I am not aware of whether you are trying to cover this

amount of money which should have come to the Transkei. On page 4 of the policy speech the hon . the Minister of Finance states that we in this House adopted an educational policy which in certain respects differs from the Bantu education policy in the Republic. It was described as "a severe setback and rejection of one of the pillars of separate development" in one of the newspapers . That put you into a difficulty, I think, that we desired to leave Bantu education . It is for that reason perhaps that you did not wish the Republican Government to give us more money because they are aware that we are deviating from the separate development policy. He says on page 2 "we sincerely believe this to be the only policy that will ensure peace, harmony and progress in South Africa" . Mr. Chairman , my belief is that if you want to be separated from a person you pay that person . He does not show hatred. I for one do not agree with your policy speech. I can say that the capital has been frozen in the Transkei . I say it is the policy of separate development that has frozen capital development in the Transkei . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: It is your supporters who have done that. They do not want any help. CHIEF NDAMASE : How can we hope to develop this country when the Government does not even want to ask the Republican Government for any external sources to invest their money in the Transkei? Why don't you say that you really sincerely believe that your children should leave the Transkei and work in the Republic? But if we have capital in the Transkei , employment would be available for the children in the Transkei. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Where is it to come from? CHIEF NDAMASE : I think it could come out of the R2 million which you say is satisfactory , and which you do not want any more. I think that money could be spent in that way. CHIEF M. MSINGAPANTSI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it disappoints me very much to find a member of our side speaking as he has spoken , although he has not broken off from our party but has remained in the party . I am put into a difficulty as to how to understand exactly what it is he is referring to. There is nothing that justifies anybody opposing this budget speech. I told the members last year to consider this Constitution and bring it to this Assembly for approval. Some of these people are attorneys . They have no constitution. I do not know what it is they find it necessary to oppose. What are we going to talk about? We have a constitution and they are merely breaking down and opposing that constitution when they have none of their own. Even today they do not really understand what they are opposing. This wonderful greed that you have for money cannot be justified by what you are saying now. It is not clear on what grounds you are opposing the policy speech of the Chief Minister. What has been said and laid down by the hon. Minister is clear even to a fool. I would like you just to take note of the work we have done in the erection of schools. I invited you to take note with regard to the raising of stipends for chiefs and also the installation of new chiefs . What is it that you are crying about? You see clearly what has been achieved. You are not lacking for anything. Would you resign

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year after year. We have to talk and say we have no confidence in this Government. This is a very false accusation to the Government. Some of you are preachers inside here , some are lawyers , and what a breach of law you are committing ! (Laughter) You had better send for a certain preacher to come and convert you. I wonder what these B.A.s are doing here? It is a pity how much they do not know. And you say you have no confidence in the Government. What are the reasons for this? Resign , please ! (Laughter) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 1 said we would be closing the debate on the amendment by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition , but there is another amendment prepared by the hon. Mr. L.T. Mazwi , that Vote I be reduced by R1,000 in respect of sub-head E , item 7; and R5,000 in respect of subhead J, item 2.

MR. L.T. MAZWI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to move the amendment as it stands. This amount has been allocated for information services. I am going to put this amount together with (b) which also appears in Vote I , item 2 of sub-head J. The reason why I say these amounts should be reduced is because you will see that item 1 refers to the salaries paid to chiefs and stipends paid to headmen. The chiefs I refer to are chiefs who do not come to this Chamber and the headmen too, because most of the headmen are not members of this Assembly. You will find that the amount reflected in sub-head E, item 7 , is for information services . The information services in the Transkei are paid for by the Republican Government , unless there has been a change which has not been told to us. We do not see why the Transkei Government should add more money on top of the money which is being paid by the Republican Government. I will refer now to sub-head J , item 2, which is earmarked for presents and rations given to chiefs and headmen . You will notice that this does not apply to all the regions , especially when you come to the word " followers " . There is another little word there "etc." - whose meaning I do not understand. It only means that there is something crooked . It means that the money can be used in any other way. I will not say anything about the salary given to the four paramount chiefs . I do not know whether there are now five but I will only refer to these poor people who get a salary of R176 x 60 R448 . You will find that he is expected to lead the tribe although he only gets a salary of R176 a year....

THE

MINISTER OF

FINANCE : But you say

this money should be reduced. Why not say it should be increased? MR . MAZWL: How can a person who gets such a small amount of money be expected not to be tempted and ask for bribes from his people? And when we get to (b), which deals with headmen , I was very disappointed when I saw this amount especially when I remember that the hon. the Minister of Finance went round in the Fingoland region telling them that their stipends had been increased . THE

true .

MINISTER OF

EDUCATION : That was

MR. MAZWI : Now dealing with these amounts under E.7 and J.2. Those amounts should be taken off there and put on the amounts paid to the chiefs. By that I mean that the presents should be done away with and the headmen should be given a liberal 10 salary. When I say this I mean that these amounts should be added together and paid to the chiefs and 4 headmen, together with the amount they are getting monthly, because the presents and rations are not 10 things which are given to all the chiefs and headment and they cannot claim it as a right. A gift depends on the person who gives it. I say · and I think we all say it that this money is being spent in an unprofitable manner and it should be given to the chiefs and headmen as salary because they are t being bribed , and no man can live on R10 a month. When we look at our Chief Ngcongolo, who is expected to live on a few rands and cents a month, I say t this money should be spent as I have suggested and g I move accordingly. 2 MR. J.B. NKOSIYANE : Mr. Chairman , I second. -

from the Transkei Government? I think you are merely delaying and retarding the Government. The only thing you should do is resign and get out of the Transkei. We have been repeating the same story

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , it has amazed this side of the House that the arch-enemies of chiefs and headmen should champion their cause . We know the reason why. Their numbers are so depleted that they will use any other chicanery methods to try and get back those sensible chiefs who have left their ranks because of their bankrupt policies . The chiefs are sensible people. They know what the position was before this Government took over. (Interjections) They know perfectly well that they only received an allowance of R12 per quarter. They are grateful that this Government came into power a sensible

one which will not just use all their funds to pay salaries. If it were in the power of theOpposition they would use all the money which is available for the services of the country to meet their own salaries in the first instance. We know perfectly ! well that you have been whispering around trying to get everybody to support your cause that your own salaries should be increased. MR. GUZANA: And what about your men? Haven't they been doing that? The document was signed by your Chief Whip and myself. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : You must remember that in order to spend more money you have to be taxed. The hon. member for Nyandeni , Chief D.D.P. Ndamase, complained about a certain amount which should have come from the Republican Government, which was not used. I just want to tell him that when we request that the Republican Government should give us this money, it is not intended to be squandered but to be used for the services of the people . We expected, for example , that a region which has done nothing for the rehabilitation of their land would come forward and request that that region should be reclaimed - that is the Dalindyebo region. You come forward here and complain that no services are being done whilst the members go to the locations and propagate propaganda that the people must not accept rehabilitation.

MR. GUZANA: Can you prove that? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The hon. Mr. Raziya went to a location , Sikobeni, and persuaded the people not to accept rehabilitation. He also went to Xalanga and the first thing he said to the people was not to accept rehabilitation , but un-

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fortunately for him he left there quicker than he went because the people would not allow his propaganda in their area. Now I want to advise the hon. members to be reasonable and realistic . This Parliament has not been created to augment the purses and the pockets of people who are never satisfied with anything. (Interjections ) MR. C.S. MDA: It was on a motion from this side of the House that the stipends were increased.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : We never pay any attention to your motions. We do not need any advice from you . The chiefs and headmen are grateful to the Government for the more than double increment which has been made to their salaries . In any event they also appreciate what is being done by the Government to supply them with meals when they attend meetings . I just wanted to reply to those criticisms , Mr. Chairman , and also to say that the Chiefs have received at least an extra R35 a month more than they used to get. What nonsense are you talking about? What do you know of chieftainship and headmanship after all, hon. member from Nqamakwe? We knew him as a man who attended night gatherings only. (Interjections) I hope the members across the floor will stop showing an irresponsible attitude . They must be well aware that when we budget we consider the services of the people more than the persons. We cannot spend all the money towards wages and salaries and we wish particularly the members from Dalindyebo to show less criticism to this Government because they are doing nothing for their people. ( Interjections) The people continue to pay their taxes and all the money they pay in taxes goes to other areas for development, because these very members who I have been elected to come here to try and get money for the people tell the people not to get that money from the Government for development. I wish the ! people would indict them properly and give a suitable judgment against them . 11 MR. J.B. NKOSIYANE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in brief I am going to address my speech to the hon. Paramount Chief who has just sat down.

RU

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : To the hon. member. MR. NKOSIYANE : To the hon. member. I am going to say something about what he said about Dalindyebo members who are not doing anything for their people . The members who were elected to represent the Dalindyebo region are satisfying the electorate The only thing is they do not satisfy this Government. When they were elected they were elected for the reasons they have given today. Rehabilitation or, in other words, the fencing is not known to our people . It is a thing that is known only to the Dutch people. The people will ask for fencing when they know the reason for it. We agreed in this House that this should not be forced upon the people but now the hon . member seems to be trying to force it . The hon. Mr. Raziya never went out to those places you mentioned to stop the people accepting rehabilitation. We only know that he was nearly injured because he had to get out of the way. He was merely advising the people of Emigrant Tembuland that they must not accept rehabilitation because it causes a lot of confusion amongst the people. He said the people must agree on this and not have it forced upon them. The hon. the Minister of Finance in his reply did not mention anything

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about information services. The people who are responsible for information services in the Transkei are paid by the Republican Government. What is this money for then? Are they also seconded to us as the other seconded officials are? There is another bad way in which this money is used. I remember when the by-election took place in Gcalekaland which resulted in the election of the hon. Mr. Dumalisile to this House. Money was paid to people for services which they had to perform and I remember one man was paid R10 a month until the end of the by-election. The money was used to bribe a person to perform some services and in order to do so he called some other person. When I met this man I found he already had something in his mouth and he could not speak. He told me please to leave him alone because he had been given that amount of money. That is why we say the money should be reduced and given to the people because it belongs to the people. The mover in this case suggests that it be given to the chiefs and headmen as a salary. It should not be given to them when the authorities like to give it to them. The hon. member says that the chiefs receive R30 and the chiefs are quite satisfied . We say that the chiefs work hard under poor circumstances and they are not safe from being attacked with battle-axes . When the police go to the location to work, they rely on the chiefs to assist them. The hon. the Chief Minister asked the chiefs in the Engcobo district whether they were satisfied with the money given them. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : They applauded my speech . MR. NKOSIYANE : This amount is not sufficient. Even if they were given less before and are now getting more, it is not enough . CHIEF H.M. NGCONGOLO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to endorse the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Finance. My party and I do not agree with the details given to us by the hon. Mr. Mazwi when he said certain moneys should be used for payment to the chiefs . I do not agree with that. I will appeal to the chiefs to realise that the members of the Opposition are merely courting them in their suggestion that their salaries should be improved . We as chiefs are quite satisfied with the money we receive. We see the work of the agitators and we have listened to them talking about rehabilitation measures and other matters about which they are talking a lot of nonsense . I am not quite certain whether or not they understand rehabilitation measures . I heard one member from the Dalindyebo region state that rehabilitation is known only to the Boer farmers . Obviously he is not from the Nqamakwe area because we have rehabilitated our areas . Let him take a visit to the Nqamakwe district where he will see what rehabilitation means . We who have rehabilitated our areas are enjoying wealth and are not in the same position as those who have not done so. We have heard a complete explanation of rehabilitation in the Assembly and we should be assured now that it is a good thing. The hon. member who comes from the location, Mr. Nogcantsi , says I am suffering from some mania as a result of rehabilitation . I want to tell him that my followers and I are living on rehabilitation and he dare not criticize rehabilitation in that area. The hon. member from Fingoland attacked me because certain persons had been arrested because they refused to move from their areas . I do not think he has closely examined the position because he has

not visited the place to see the harm done by the people who refused to move. He has omitted to point out that it was he himself who persuaded people to oppose rehabilitation and he has now landed my people in trouble from which they cannot extricate themselves. (Interjections) Mr. Chairman, I am not prepared to listen to the speeches of the Opposition because I can see they are misleading people, particularly weak-minded people. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in the first place I want to make clear to the chiefs who are on the other side something which they do not understand. In fact I have only heard two of the chiefs. The hon . Chief Ngcongolo said he is satisfied with his salary but I think he is only referring to himself. He cannot say that on behalf of all the other chiefs , and another hon. member who is a chief on the other side , Chief Ludidi , said whilst he was sitting down that he was satisfied with the salary. I would be surprised if their families or their wives would be satisfied if they heard them say that. This money we are talking about has nothing to do with Vote I , sub-head A, dealing with salaries. This only refers to rations and presents. The amount in all referred to here is R5,000, and this should be taken away from that vote and given to the chiefs as a standing salary. There is no chief who will sit back and expect a meal to be given to him if this money is included in his salary because he can buy his own meal. That is what we are saying on this side . There is another amount which is allocated to information services. If these amounts are put together they will amount to R6,000 and they can be removed from that item and added to Vote I.A. It would then be included in their salaries and they will benefit. If this matter is treated as a party political matter then a person will not benefit from it because he thinks he belongs to that side. The last speaker told us about fences. I do not know what bearing fences have in this matter because we are dealing with item 2. I do not know whether he dreams because we have long been awake. As soon as his children hear what he said they will say: What kind of father have we got? We are asking for the money so that he will have more and he comes and tells us about fencing. (Laughter) I agree with the hon. the Minister of Finance when he says that the chiefs have had their salaries raised, but that does not mean that the salaries they are getting now are sufficient. We say it should be raised further. That is all. It is not just a matter of belonging to the Government party and thinking that if you vote with this side you will be expelled from that party. I am trying to explain that even if you vote with this side we will not expect you on this side. All we are trying to do is to raise the salaries of chiefs. We are only dealing with the money which has been given to us , which is not enjoyed by the other people. Rations and presents are not applied in Emboland and it cannot be said that this vote is just because it is serving the people in Tembuland and Maluti only. This money should be divided equally among all the chiefs . THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am happy that this debate is now drawing to an end and that there has been So little criticism from the Opposition members that I hardly find anything to reply to. The motion on the reduction of the Chief Minister's salary is merely formal and this side of the House does not take it seriously. The Chief Minister is the pivot

of the whole structure of the Transkei Government and there can be no Government without a Prime

&GL Minister. Now, Mr. Chairman, I just want to reply to the amendment by the hon. member from Fingoland, Mr. L.T. Mazwi, with regard to Vote E.7. This item is on the estimates in case there should be a publi- EL cation of a pamphlet on behalf of the Transkei Government by the Department of Information. As you probably have seen from the report of the Controller and Auditor-General , nothing was spent on this item . MR. GUZANA: That is the 1964/1965 report?

that

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : Yes. It is true we have no information officers under the

Transkei Government but as a responsible Government we have to provide for certain contingencies which we anticipate may come to fruition. Now the sowing of suspicion by this hon. member can only be regarded as ridiculous . I need not reiterate what I have already said in connection with Vote I, sub-head J.2. That is a service which has been

m G

provided by the Transkei Government. The money is for the chiefs and headmen and their followers when they attend quarterly meetings in the respective districts of the Transkei . With regard to presents, I take it that not a single region is without a chief. These presents are given to the chiefs on their installation and they are intended as a mark of goodwill between that tribe and the Government. I MR. GUZANA: Not vice versa? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: I cannot understand the stupidity of some people who cannot understand simple things like this . They suggest that this meagre amount should be reverted into the chiefs' and headmen's salaries . What are the chiefs going to gain by it? We are a responsible Government and when the finances of the Transkei Government are such that additional allowances can be made to the chiefs and headmen the Government will not hesitate to augment such stipends. The same applies to other servants in the Government service, but no Government can spend more money than it has collected . Our estimates are based on the amount of revenue which we have and I am warning you that your constant criticism of the Government about salaries will inevitably lead the Government to impose taxes on you and the people. Now the Government will not be regarded as responsible for the imposition of that tax, but the Opposition, i because it is theOpposition which constantly criticizes the Govemment for its expenditure . MR. GUZANA: But you do not ask for the money which is available to this Government , which could have come from the Republican Government.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: The money which comes from the Republican Government does not come here for salaries. It is money which is given to the Government for services to the people. MR. GUZANA: That's right, so that you can invest it and raise interest. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: Your own taxes are not sufficient to meet education alone. MR. GUZANA: And you leave money and do not ask for it despite that.

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THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : We have not

left any money .

“ MR. GUZANA : You have. You have not asked for the money provided for in section 52 ( 1) (d) of the Constitution Act.

THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: I have explained that certain areas are not taking advantage of the services which the Government offers .

9 MR. GUZANA: No, this money which is given to the Transkei according to section 52 (1) (d) - why don't you ask for that money from the Republican Government? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: That money is intended for the performance of services in the Transkei. You were elected to come to this Chamber and make sure that the services to your constituences are performed. MR. GUZANA: Yes , now why don't you use that money? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: I am telling you 3 that if you asked that certain reclamation measures were carried out in your area we should probably have asked the Republican Government to give us that money for that purpose. 2 MR. GUZANA: Is that the only way you use that money? THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : The various departments come forward with their estimates of ! revenue and expenditure and the Department of the Chief Minister cannot just give money to a department over and above the estimated services. E

darkness . In the first place the Republican Government is not poor. Secondly, if the people I spoke about in this vote say they are satisfied with their salaries it is not true. The hon. chief from Nqamakwe said he is satisfied with his salary and yet he knows that in the meeting he held the other headmen were complaining about the situation and so was he. He is really afraid to convey this complaint himself to his Chief Minister because he will get a whipping. (Laughter) He referred those headmen to me as they had elected me to represent them. If he, as a chief, is satisfied his headmen are not. On the question of fencing he cannot say anything about that because he found that the fencing was just carried out . When rehabilitation was introduced a discussion took place and he accepted it. At that time he did not know that he would ever become a chief. I had expected the hon. the Chief Minister to make it clear how important are the moneys in this vote. All he did was to put it in the minds of the chiefs that we are bribing them to come to this side. We do not want a group of people who do not think on this side. We are quite content. A lot of them just follow behind the hon. Minister, not knowing where he is leading them. That is why some of them say they are satisfied and yet they are not. That reminds me of a bridegroom who sat at the table and said he was quite satisfied because he was shy but later in the evening he was heard fiddling with the pots in darkness . I still say that this vote should be referred to the chiefs . The debate on Vote I of the Appropriation Bill was adjourned. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 10th May, 1966. TUESDAY, 10TH MAY, 1966.

MR. GUZANA: You have exceeded your estimates quite a number of times. THE MINISTER OF FINANCE: As far as my department is concerned, the vote with which we are now dealing, you have nothing to criticize. All the services which are to be performed by my Department are provided for in these estimates. Now, Mr. Chairman, it is my hope that the members should try by all means to come down to mother earth and reason. They are either in the sky or under water or in the air.

MR. GUZANA: Where are you then? You ought to be underground . 19:11 30 2nd THE MINISTER OF FINANCE : They have been 1 asked by the people to come and represent them but instead they always want to come and improve their own positions . I want to promise them that 1 when the time comes when the finances of the Transkei are able to meet the salaries that they have so much talked about , the Government will not hesitate even to increase their own allowances . As Minister of Finance , however, I have got to be strictly economical. I cannot put the Transkei in the ditch.

The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m. Prayers were read. THE CHAIRMAN : Hon paramount chiefs and hon. members , I see that the hon . members do not intend keeping time and I shall therefore ask the Secretary to take the roll call . MR. L.A. LUWACA: Mr. Chairman , I would like to know why this roll call is being called as if we are small boys. It has never been done before.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: You cannot query the Chairman. He explained it to you. He need not reply. The roll was called . The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed .

QUESTIONS. QUESTION 12: Mr. N.C. Nogcantsi asked the Chief Minister and Minister of Finance : -

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I do not know if the hon. Mr. Mazwi has anything to say? MR. MAZWI : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , it is a pity when we expect to get something tangible from the Government members , who are supposed to be responsible, that we should still remain in

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(1) (a) What were the charges preferred against Chief Ngadlela Siyoyo during his suspension from official duties and the last Transkei session?

Legislative

Assembly

(b) After the trial of the case was he paid

his salary and sessional allowance in full?"

REPLY : (a) The honourable member is referred to the provisions of the Public Service Act, 1957 (Act No. 54 of 1957) in respect of seconded officers of the Republican Civil Service and proclamation No. R.334 of 1963 in respect of officers of the Transkeian Government Service . If you, being a member of Parliament , do not worry yourself about reading about matters concerning the civil service and other bodies of this Govemment, it is not my business to do so for you. You keep on studying the dictionary instead.

REPLY: (a) In regard to 1 (a) I refer you to Rule 86 (x) of Proclamation No. 309 of 1963. (b) He was not paid his salary during the time of suspension , neither was he paid a sessional allowance during his absence from the Assembly.

QUESTION 13 : Mr. N.C. Interior:-

Nogcantsi

asked the

Minister of

"(a) What punitive measures were taken against the headmen who interfered with Umzimkulu by-election?

(b) This question is not clear and I am unable to reply thereto. If the honourable member has a complaint he should lodge it in a proper manner.

QUESTION 16:

(b) Why were semi -literate Europeans or poor whites used as polling officers on the polling day?"

Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Education:"(a) Why is it that many vacancies are not advertised for teachers' posts when they occur?

REPLY:

(a) As far as I am aware no headman interfered at Umzimkulu . No with the by-election complaint was brought to my notice in this connection.

(b) Why so many teachers are on temporary employment?" REPLY : (a) For administrative reasons it has not always been possible to advertise vacancies as they have occurred . A new system to overcome this difficulty is being devised and will be put into operation shortly.

(b) No semi-literate persons were employed as polling officers on polling day. All persons employed in that capacity were considered qualified to do so and I have had no complaints to the contrary.

(b) It is the policy to obtain the recommendation of Regional Authorities before permanently filling a vacancy. Consequently, until this recommendation is received all vacancies

QUESTION 14: Mr. N.C. Justice:-

Nogcantsi

asked the

Minister of

must "(a) How many liquor permits were issued to the applicants? If none, why not?"

Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:-

REPLY: The question is not clear and I am unable to reply thereto. I might advise the hon. member if he wants to ask questions he must specify what he means. I am not going to reply to a question on the issue of liquor permits from 1910 to the present day. QUESTION 15:

Mr.

of necessity be temporarily filled.

QUESTION 17:

N.C.

Nogcantsi

asked the

Minister of

Justice:"(a) How can disciplinary measures be taken against Magistrates who are actively taking part in the Transkei politics? (b) What can be done to the senior Magistrate of Mount Frere who is partisan in approach in every administrative matter?"

"How many bags of mealies , kaffir-corn, beans were imported into the Transkei during the years 1965 and 1966? " REPLY : 2,510,640 bags of mealies were imported into the Transkei in 1965. During the first two months of the current year 513,310 bags of mealies were imported. Figures for March and April are not yet available. The figures for kaffir-corn and beans that were imported into the Transkei during the period stated, are unfortunately not available.

QUESTION 18: Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry :"How much money was spent in the destruction of noxious weeds during the years 1964, 1965, 1966 in the Transkei?"

Mr. Chairman, I will ask the Minister of Justice not to evade answering because the questions are specific.

REPLY : THE CHAIRMAN: You must just put the question, hon. member and not speak on it.

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I regret that I cannot supply the information

E1

3

required. However during the financial year 1964/65 R21,104 , and during the 1965/66 financial year R18,824 was spent on the eradication of all weeds .

Interior:C" (a) of the people who have acquired property in African zoned areas , how many have been given title deeds? If none why? (b) How many Bantu have acquired properties in African zoned areas? (c) How many White trading stations have been taken over by the Bantu Investment Corporation? (d) Does the Bantu Investment Corporation accept Bantu as shareholders of the Corporation? If not why not?"

QUESTION 19: Rev. B.S. Rajuili asked the Minister of Education:"(a) (i) How many teacher training schools are there in the Transkei? (ii) Are there any African teachers responsible for the teaching of school method and organisation in these schools? (iii) What percentage do they make of the teachers responsible for that subject? (b) (i) How many high schools are there in the Transkei? (ii) Of these how many are headed by

Europeans ? (c) (i) How many secondary schools are there in the Transkei? (ii) How many of these are headed by White principals? (d) (i) Are there any new secondary schools under construction during this year? (ii) If there be, how many? (iii) In what region or regions are such secondary schools? " REPLY :

(a) (i) (ii) (iii) (b) (i) (ii) (c) (i) (ii) (d) (i) (ii) (iii)

8. Yes. 62.5% 8. 6. 44. 2. Yes . Three. Dalindyebo and Nyanda.

REPLY: (a) and (b) According to information recently gathered 45 properties in the reserved areas have since 1st January, 1966 been transferred to Transkei citizens and 46 properties are in the process of being transferred . It must be pointed out that these transfers are not effected through my Department but by the parties concerned direct with the Registrar of Deeds , Cape Town. Transfer is effected by means of a deed of Transfer so it is correct to say that all such purchasers obtain Title Deeds for the property purchased . Each of the properties in question has its original Title Deeds and new ones are not issued on sale to Transkei citizens. The transfers are merely endorsed on the existing title deeds . (c) 33 White trading stations have to date been taken over by the Bantu Investment Corporation. (d) In terms of the Bantu Investment Corporation Act the only shareholder in the Corporation is the South African Bantu Trust. The Corporation does , however, transact business with Bantu in that they are entitled to deposit money with the Corporation in the same way as all the Building Societies , Bank Savings Accounts and Post Office Savings Accounts accept deposits .

QUESTION 22:

QUESTION 20: Chief D.D.P. Ndamase asked the Minister of Interior:"(a) Of White farms acquired by the South African Trust how many have been sold to African farmers? (b) If none, why?"

REPLY : (a) None. (b) Because some of the farms were acquired for a special purpose such as the establishment of the Phormium Tenax project in Butterworth district and others to provide a site for the Ibisi Irrigation Dam on the Indwe River in the St. Marks district. Other farms acquired have not been sold to African farmers because it is the policy that ground acquired by the Trust should not be disposed of to individuals but should be used for the benefit of all Transkei citizens as a whole and as such either be individually planned and settled or incorporated in the adjoining location. QUESTION 21:

Chief D.D.P. Ndamase asked the Minister of Finance:-

"(a) Why has the Transkei Government not requested the Republican Government to increase the grant , in terms of paragraph (c) of section 52( 1) of the Transkei Constitution Act No. 48 of 1963? (b) Why has the additional sum to be appropriated by the Republican Parliament in terms of paragraph (d) of section 52(1) of the Transkei Constitution Act , 1963 , not been included in 1966/67 estimates of revenue? " REPLY: (a) Section 52(1 ) (c) of the Transkei Constitution Act, 1963, provides for the annual payment into the Transkei Revenue Fund of a grant calculated on a fixed basis which cannot be altered except by amendment of that Act. (b) With the estimated surplus mentioned in my Budget Statement there was no need this year to apply for additional assistance under paragraph (d) of sub- section 52(1).

QUESTION 23: Mr. C.S. Mda asked the Minister of the Interior:-

Chief D.D.P. Ndamase asked the Minister of

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"(a) Whether any steps were taken by the Minister and his Department to ascertain the gravity of conditions of starvation in the Transkei as a result of the devastating drought experienced during the 1964/65 season? (b) If so which districts of the Transkei were declared "starvation areas?" (c) What modus operandi did the Minister and his Department apply in assessing the mealie-food shortage in the various regions of the Transkei in determining an equitable distribution of relief measures accruing from the Transkei Drought Relief Fund?"

(b) The honourable member is referred to reply to portion (b) of Question No. 16 put by the honourable member Mr. N. Jafta.

QUESTION 26: Mr. N.C. Nogcantsi asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry:"When will the certificates of occupation be replaced by title deeds in the rural areas?" REPLY:

il As all land matters are dealt with by the Department of the Interior, the question should be directed to the honourable the Minister of the Interior.

REPLY:

QUESTION 24: Mr. G.S. Dana asked the Chief Minister and Minister of Finance :-

"(a) How many civil servants are there in the Transkei? (b) And of that number, how many (1 ) Bantu. (2) Whites . (3) Coloureds? (c) How many Europeans were replaced by Africans in the Transkei Civil Service in 1965?"

QUESTION 27: Mr. N.C. Nogcantsi asked the Chief Minister and Minister of Finance:-

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(a), (b) and (c). In his question the honouraele member refers to "starvation areas" in the Transkei . I wish categorically to refute such allegations of starvation. There has at no time been starvation in the territory because my Government has seen to it that adequate supplies of food have been maintained in the Transkei , and those people who did not have the immediate cash with which to purchase food were placed on relief work to earn such cash. Old and infirm people and young children who could not work were given poor relief assistance. There was not a single recorded death from starvation in the Transkei . No districts in the Transkei were declared so called " starvation areas ,99 but relief works were however provided in seventeen districts . An equitable distribution of relief measures was effected on the basis of detailed factual reports received from the Magistrates concerned. In conclusion , I wish to refer the honourable member to the full statement made to this Assembly by the honourable the Chief Minister in the matter on 26th April, 1965.

"Why does the Government not employ women with suitable qualifications to do clerical work in the magistrates' offices? " REPLY : Because of the availability of suitably qualified male candidates for appointment to clerical posts in magistrates' offices, it is not considered sound policy to appoint females in such posts at present. Females are , however, considered for appointment to posts of Switchboard Operator, Typist, Records Clerk in Head Office registries , etc.

K 24

MR. NOGCANTSI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, arising from the reply by the hon. the Chief Minister and Minister of Finance, would he tell me whether such duties as switchboard operating and others do not exist in magistrates ' offices? THE CHIEF MINISTER : Some of this work is done by the clerks who are employed on a fixed establishment in those offices. It is not necessary to employ a person for a post which has already been filled, but where necessity arises these female switchboard operators will be employed , and also as typists and record clerks , but every post is filled by the Public Service Commission as necessity arises .

2 I

QUESTION 28:

2

REPLY: (a) 2620. (b) (1 ) 2225 (2 ) 382 (3) 13. (c) 45.

Mr. N.C. Nogcantsi asked the Minister of Education :-

"Under what conditions does the Department of Education undertake to build and repair the schools? "

QUESTION 25: Mr. N.C. Nogcantsi asked the Minister of Education:"(a) Why are the teachers employed since 1965 regarded as temporary? (b) When are they to become permanent?" REPLY : (a) This does not reflect the true position. A number of posts have in fact been permanently filled.

REPLY : It is the policy of the Department to provide permanent school buildings . In the case of primary schools preference may be given to those cases where the communities contribute 10% of the cost of the buildings in cash. Major repairs are done Departmentally whereas the school committees are responsible for minor repairs .

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QUESTION 29: Mr. N.C. Nogcantsi asked the Chief Minister and Minister of Finance:"Why should widows not be paid the scale of pay as is enjoyed by male teachers? "

or the judicature in the Transkei , steady progress is being made as will appear from a brief outline of the achievements and activities of the Department. In the course of my address I shall also deal with the future development and general policy of my Department. ORGANISATION AND STAFF :

REPLY : The regulations do not provide for equal scales of payment for widow and male teachers . MR . NOGCANTSI : Mr. Chairman, I would like to know why in order to complete the sense of this reply. THE CHAIRMAN : question in writing.

I think you can put that

MR. NOGCANTSI : This question is arising from the reply. I

THE CHAIRMAN: I am afraid you must write it down. 拉 TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the House should now sit in committee to consider the Transkei Appropriation Bill. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman , I second. Agreed to. House in Committee .

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon . paramount chiefs and hon. members , we are still considering Vote I. I said yesterday that I would not allow any speakers this morning and we shall now consider 1 the two amendments by the hon. Mr. Guzana and Mr. L.T. Mazwi. The first amendment was moved by the hon. Mr. Guzana that Vote I be reduced by R2,000 in respect of sub-head A, Minister's Salary. I therefore put the quenstion .

‫کھ‬

The amendment was lost by 35 votes to 56 against. The amendment by the hon. Mr. L.T. Mazwi that Vote I be reduced by R1,000 in respect of sub-head E, item 7, was put and lost by 37 votes to 57 against. The amendment by the hon. Mr. L.T. Mazwi that Vote I be reduced by R5,000 in respect of sub-head J, item 2 , was put and lost by 37 votes to 58 against.

Since the last session ofthe Assembly there has been no change in the Departmental organisation. I am pleased to say, however, that considerable progress has been made with the substitution of seconded officers by officers of the Transkeian Government Service. At present approximately 77% of the posts on the fixed establishment are being occupied by Transkeian citizens , which means an increase of 7% since last year.

An intensive training programme to equip these officers for their task is of the utmost importance. As such training should in the first place be legal training, it is obvious that opportunities must be created for them to study law. In an effort to encourage officers to study law, the Department, in consultation with the Public Service Commission, introduced a scheme whereby officers who wish to study law, are financially assisted. Last year twenty-one officers availed themselves of the assistance offered . Officers are also allowed and encouraged to attend the vacation school of the University of South Africa. It is expected that many of them will attend the vacation school this year. Last year, apart from the said vacation school , a refresher course in law was also offered by the University College of Fort Hare and eight officers attended this course. The Department is also investigating the possibility of extending its training scheme so as to ensure that a sufficient number of qualified men will soon be available to occupy successfully all the posts which are at present being occupied by seconded officers. DISTRICT ADMINISTRATION: During the past year the district offices of my Department have again played an important part in the maintenance of law and order in the Transkei . However, the magistrates are not only concemed with the administration of justice, but are also performing valuable agency services for almost every other department and are to a great extent responsible for the successful implementation of policy. Notwithstanding an increase in the volume of district work, the magistrates have devoted much time to the training of officers and I am proud to say that I hope to announce the appointment of the first Transkeian citizens as heads of magistrates' offices in the near future. There are already nine Transkeian citizens who hold appointments as judicial officers. TRANSKEIAN POLICE:

The amount of R645,000 under Vote I, Department of the Chief Minister and Finance , was passed to stand part of the schedule.

(a) Organisation:

POLICY STATEMENT BY THE HONOURABLE THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE. Mr. Chairman, honourable Paramount Chiefs and honourable members of the Legislative Assembly. Although the past year is perhaps not marked by outstanding events in the history of my Department - 135-

The foundation for a substantial Transkeian Police Force has been laid. The force is now well organised and properly equipped . Two additional posts have been created on the establishment of the police headquarters at Umtata to cope with the increasing volume of administrative work. Several members have distinguished themselves and have been promoted to higher ranks . Post commanders have now

transfer to the Transkeian Government also forms the subject of the Department's investigations. As pointed out earlier, however, the present stress is on training. There can be no development unless a sufficient number of trained men are available to perform judicial and other duties successfully .

been appointed at all magistrates' offices , Mr. Chairman, I am sure that everyone who has seen a flag-hoisting ceremony by the Transkeian Police or the guard of honour at the recent opening of this session of the Assembly, will agree that we have reason to be proud of our men.

1

(b) Homeguard Services:

Although there are 320 posts for homeguards , only 112 homeguards are at present being employed. It is the policy of my Department to decrease the number of homeguards whenever possible. Since last session the number of homeguards has been decreased by more than 200.

(b) Police Activities: In view of what has been said about the Transkeian Police earlier in my speech, the Department feels that the time has come for the Transkeian police to assume greater responsibility. It is the policy of my Department that the Transkeian Police should as soon as possible be responsible for all the police work in the Transkei. The Transkeian Government is therefore negotiating with the Republican Govemment in this connection. I wish to emphasise , however, that there will be no undue haste in this matter

(c) Police Patrol Dogs: Two Alsatian Police Patrol Dogs have been donated by the Commissioner of the South African Police to the Transkeian Government. Two members of the Transkeian Police have been trained as attendants for the dogs. For the first time in the history of police work in South Africa such dogs are being handled by nonWhite police.

and that nothing will be done which might be detrimental to the maintenance of law and order and the internal security of the Transkei and the Republic.

1

1

(c) Road Safety:

(d) Crime: An increasing number of Transkeian citizens of all ages are using the public roads daily. Many of them are motorists, others travel on bicycle or on horseback and many more are pedestrians. The Department feels that an intensive road safety programme has become a necessity in the Transkei and it is the policy of the department not only to promote the good work done by the South African Road Safety Council on behalf of the Transkeian Government but also to take an active part in road safety activities. For that purpose the training of Transkeian citizens in road safety work will become inevitable in the near future. This is a matter of vital importance which concerns the safety of ourselves and our children. Mr. Chairman, I conclude by expressing the hope that my Department will always have the support of all the honourable members of this Assembly in its efforts to keep death off the road.

One hundred and thirty cases have been reported by members of the Transkeian Police . These include offences such as possession of dagga, possession of dangerous weapons and drunkenness .

ROAD SAFETY:

Before the conferment of self-government on the Transkei the Road Safety Council of the Republic was responsible for road safety work in the Transkei . The duties of the Transkeian Government in connection with road safety work have been allocated to my Department. Until my Department is in a position to undertake road safety work the Road Safety Council, at the request of the Transkei an Govemment, performs its functions in the Transkei through its Liaison Officer for the Eastern Cape , in consultation with the Department of Justice on behalf of the Transkeian Government.

D

!

s

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I move that vote No. 2 be approved by this I Committee. GENERAL : In conclusion , Mr. Chairman, I wish to mention a few matters which will receive particular attention in the near future and to outline my Department's policy in connection with these matters. (a) The Judicature: My Department is at present investigating certain aspects of the whole judicature in the Transkei. As indicated last year, it is the policy of my Department to develop the traditional courts in the Transkei and to preserve and develop the Transkeian common law and custom. The investigation of all the aspects of this matter is a tremendous task and it will obviously take some time before legislation can be prepared for the implementation of this policy. I also wish to mention that the transfer of the magistrates' and Bantu Affairs Commissioners ' Courts to the Transkeian Government is still receiving attention. The future of these courts after their

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second, t Mr. Chairman .

MR. C.S. MDA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, you will note that there is an amendment to the effect that this vote be reduced by R1,700 with respect to sub-head A, Minister's Salary. That } amendment is in the name of the hon . Mr. K.M. Guzana 20 who unfortunately is not present today. I rise therefore in his stead to move this amendment. I shall start by saying that we are placed in a disadvanta geous position when we are unable to read directly the speeches by ministers of the departments. When I say this it is not only on behalf of the Opposition but of the whole House. Perhaps there is a fear that if the Opposition members were to get these speeches in advance it would be strong enough to be able to put their case. I think, however, that that would be an advantage to this Assembly because anything that goes through this House should have had a thorough examination. It is not always possible to take note of outstanding features in the

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address of any Minister while he is speaking so that you can put down carefully what it is you wish to refer to. If it were possible to have in front of one the copy of his address it would be very much easier.

Department of Justice is taking upon itself the duty oftraining the people in connection with road safety. You will note that today the death rate on the roads is increasing .

THE CHIEF MINISTER: You have only three minutes left.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Not in the Transkei.

MR. MDA: No, as I am leading the debate on this side the Chairman will accord me thirty minutes. Mr. Chairman, we very much welcome the address of the hon. Minister in respect of the statement that assistance is being extended to those employed in his Department. We are also grateful that it is noted here that the Government is taking particular interest in the procedure being followed in the tribal courts of the country. However, there is nothing very outstanding which impresses us in the few Bantu officials who have taken over the duties of

MR. MDA: Not only in the Transkei but right throughout the Republic. I do not know whether the Transkei drivers are immune from accidents .

magistrates. In truth, all I can say is that these officers have merely become assistants or "boys" to the magistrates . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Those are the workings of multi-racialism · to employ " boys" . MR. MDA: The Minister of Education says that is the policy of multi-racialism. However , I do not think he is correct because our multi-racial policy stipulates that whoever is capable of undertaking the duties should do so without being subordinate to anyone. We would have been pleased if these officers were carrying out their duties under the magistrates, as their assistants , but from what has been said it would appear as though the magistrates do not really want their assistants to be Bantu . It is on that account that we appreciate the speech by the hon. Minister that these are being given full training that they may later on become full magistrates. We are also pleased to note from the hon. Minister's speech that there is a policy of gradually decreasing the number of home guards. Indeed we of the Opposition do not know why there have ever been home guards. If all governmental officials were carrying out their duties in the interests of the public, what is the need for them to have home guards? If every chief has a home guard, let him examine his own ways carefully, because it is possible that there might be something undesirable in his dealings with the people. It is only those chiefs who may need home guards . I note that there are only two of these home guards , and their remuneration is R120 per annum. However the vote earmarked for this year amounts to R29,000 . I do not know whether there is an error in the printing there.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No, it is misleading. They are just numbered 1 , 2, 3 and 4. It does not mean there are only two home guards . The police sub-paragraph is No. 1. MR. MDA: Why is the number of home guards not given here when the number of police has been indicated? We want to know exactly how many there are. Although it appears in your speech, it ought also to appear in the vote. We have not come to a lesson in mathematics here. I do not know whether the hon. the Minister of Agriculture has counted properly the number of baboons in the forest. (Laughter) I can only refer to something that is written here and which is clearly stated . If the hon. Minister can give the figures out of his head, why can he not put the numbers here? We are also pleased that the

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Your time is up. MR. MDA: I had hoped that you would allow me 30 minutes as the mover of this amendment, but I move that the vote be reduced by R1,700 in respect of sub-head A. MR. K.G. NOTA: I second , Mr. Chairman . MR. J.M. SINEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to associate myself with the policy speech of the Minister of Justice. To my own way of thinking I think we are going to be in agreement with the Opposition on this matter. I will touch on a very important point . I refer to the question often asked outside the House as to when the positions now occupied by the Whites will be open. It is pleasing to hear the report that high positions are already being occupied by our people. That will diminish the noise that important positions in the Transkei are occupied by Whites only . We are also pleased to hear that the Transkei Government is taking steps to train its officials in law. A very big number has been quoted to us - namely, 21 officers who are studying law and also those who are allowed to go to vacation courses at Fort Hare to study law. We are also pleased to learn that we already have a considerable number of black magistrates . All this goes to strengthen the ties between this party and the Opposition. We are also pleased with the work of traffic officers on the road, who see that people do not get injured. When I say that I know that the accidents do occur but not to the extent that a person gets an old car and puts it on the road, with the result that people get injured. We are also pleased to hear of the great number of police in the locations. That shows we are protected in the Transkei. All the same we know that there are certain people who break the law and who do not like these achievements. I shall now touch on a minor point which arose from the question this morning about the Mount Frere magistrate . I want to endorse the speech of the hon. Minister that the magistrates are appointed in each district to maintain order. My hon. friend , the member for Mount Frere, has accused the magistrate of Mount Frere of interfering in political matters. My advice to him is to drop the complaint because he does not belong to the district of Mount Frere and no one in that village will bear out his allegations . There is no member in this Assembly who comes from Mount Frere, nor anyone in the district, who will complain against the magistrate there. He is a magistrate in the true sense of the word and he knows his work. His nickname there is "Peacemaker" . The hon . member who now complains of the magistrate does not belong to that district. He must leave Mount Frere and go to his own district. With those remarks, Mr. Chairman, I am grateful that the Opposition and our party are in accord on this matter. There is just one little point about which we differ and that is the amendment that the Minister's salary should be reduced.

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There we are at cross purposes.

MR.

The debate was adjourned.

take

people's

firearms ...

MR. A. MFEBE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I shall be very brief. The reason why I say that is because the whole House knows there is nothing to discuss in this matter, because we all agree. I just want to say a few words in connection with what has been said by the hon. Mr. Mda about home guards. He says that the chief himself should look around and see what faults he has . I want to say to him that the chief has nothing wrong with him. People who go against the chief come from outside. They are not followers of the chief. (Interjections)

The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate was resumed. MR. K.G. NOTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, we are dealing with the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Justice. As the speech was very brief it indicates that we shall not have much to say in this connection . The point which drew my attention was the point dealing with home guards . It is clear that from the estimates the number of home guards has been reduced . Last year they were allocated R38,000 and this year they are being granted R29,000, and I would like the hon. the Minister of Justice to listen to the reasons advanced by the Opposition as to why we consider home guards are not necessary and that they are a mere expense. It is clear now that by reducing their number the Government has saved R9,000. This action supports the speech of the hon. the Chief Minister that there is peace in the Transkei and it shows that the number of home guards should be reduced. I am only sorry that the hon. the Chief Minister and the Minister of Justice agree that there is peace in the Transkei and yet they still retain Proclamation R.400 . What is this proclamation kept for? People in the Republic also hear that there is peace in the Transkei . They will be surprised to hear that peace is obtaining here and yet find that this proclamation, which is really for emergency cases, is still retained . We might say that this is only kept so that people who have been elected should find difficulty in meeting their electors . It has already been experienced by the elected members when they try to hold meetings with the electorate. I know of people who have fixed dates for meetings but could not succeed in holding those meetings . I would say again that the second meaning of this proclamation is that once you are suspected , you will be arrested and if one asks why a man is arrested one will be told that Proclamation 400 still applies in the Transkei . It then becomes clear that that proclamation has nothing to do in the Transkei as the Ministers have already statedthat there is peace in the Transkei. Let me go further to a point mentioned by the hon. Minister dealing with assistant magistrates, although according to the estimates they are said to be only senior clerks . I agree with him that last year he had seven Africans appointed to those posts and this year he has nine. We appreciate that and hope he will increase the number. This is one thing I would like to bring to his attention. There is a general complaint that the White and Black assistant magistrates are not fully qualified in law. They sit as judicial officers in the magistrates' offices , and the result is that they convict a person not according to law. Such a person who has been convicted then has to appeal and he usually succeeds in his appeal , but the fact is that he has spent more money than he should have. I wish the hon. the Minister of Justice would take that into consideration . Now I want to go into the matter of a person in possession of fire-arms . Although he did not include that in his policy speech, I think it should have been mentioned. His Department is doing injustice to people.

CHIEF MINISTER :

They

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Your time is up.

AFTERNOON SESSION.

THE

NOTA:

That is

an insult.

1

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A THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. MFEBE: What I want you to appreciate is that the whole morning people were disciplined and now there are people who come with interjections. There is no time when the residents of a location have attacked their own chief. It is usually other people from outside who do this. That is clear to everyone. In connection with Proclamation 400 I just want to say one word. Cattle that have no herdboys will trespass on the land . You understand what that means. We appreciate the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Justice . There is nothing which has not been done and which should have been done. Today he told us of things that have been done which were not done before , and which were not known before. There is only one thing I see which makes the Opposition complain and if it were not for that then there would be no complaint and we would all agree. The complaint is in connection with the Ministers ' salaries . I think next time I will move a motion that members of Parliament should have their salaries reduced. The policy of the hon. Minister is quite clear to everyone. Now that we all understand what they are doing, why should we say that their salaries should be reduced? I therefore say that the salaries are correct. These people have brains and when they frame these estimates they do it correctly. There is nothing we can criticize

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in what they have done, yet it is right to advise. I appreciate the attitude of theOpposition members today. It is all right for them to criticize constructively. They do not look like members of the Opposition today because they are not making a noise. I see now that the Leader of theOpposition is doing his work and he is stopping people from making a lot of interjections. Those who have not been disciplined in their homes cannot be put right by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. I therefore say that the policy is in order. DR. H.P. BALA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I just want to say a few words on this Justice vote moved by my school- mate, the hon . the Minister of Justice , Mr. George Matanzima. I just want to confine myself to two topics . The first one is law and order and the second one is on crime generally. Now I will attend to the first one - that is , law and order. I am for law and order - that is , I do not promote or foster or espouse chaos or lawlessness. In other words I am not an anarchist like the Spanish. Spaniards are proverbial anarchists , but in South Africa the term "law and order" has many connotations and interpretations. It is not specific ; it is too elastic. It is subject to the whims , the wishes and the foibles of whoever is in authority. I will give you an example. There are some White magistrates who do not like Black attorneys and they

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do not scruple to slight them when they appear before them on behalf of their clients by demanding profestie: sional certificates . That indignity must not be tolerated any longer. Another example again - a

districts , because a man who has to take up a position as magistrate must be able to check up on all the sections in the office .

headman or a chief may not favour certain religious sects like the Zionists or the Assemblies of God adherents and they do not scruple to stop them from holding their services. Don't you see now that the term is too elastic? I will pass on to comment generally on crime. The hon. the Minister of Justice knows there are numerous laws - unjust laws which are imposed by the White man on the Black man. Those laws have to be obeyed and the Black man sometimes has to go to prison for the most trivial offences, even in the Transkei · for example, the pass laws and the influx control regulations which apply even in the Transkei here . Furthermore, both the Black and White police tend to be over- zealous to put the Black man into prison , whereas the White police tend to keep their criminals out of prison. I think it is high time that the Black policemen also learned that. You see, the accent in the Transkei should be on prevention of crime and rehabilitation of criminals, rather than what appears to be the case · the manufacture and fabrication of crime to secure a conviction . Now that trend of preventing crime is not Communistic . It is in keeping with world trends in the study of criminology.

MR. NOGCANTSI : Even if he has no law subjects?

LSMO

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I wish to congratulate the members of this House for the contribution they have made today in their discussions of this vote . I must say in anybody who had heard that there was a motion in connection with the reduction of the Minister's salary, having heard the discussion from the hon. members of the Opposition side , would just wipe that off as ordinary parliamentary procedure. We i have listened this morning to the most constructive debate that I think has ever taken place in this House. It is therefore not necessary for me to go into details as far as certain points raised here are concerned. I would like to reply briefly to something that was said by my hon. friend from Qaukeni , Mr. C.S. Mda, to whom I think the credit for the fine spirit of the discussion today should go.

MR. N.C. NOGCANTSI : Don't be a moralist. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : It is a pity you made no contribution in this debate because you know I was going to give you what you deserve . MR. NOGCANTSI : Because you hate me . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I do not hate anybody. I hate a person's actions , more especially people who go and hire herbalists to kill others. In any event, the point I want to reply to is in connection with the African assistant magistrates . In the past there was no training programme whatsoever with regard to these personnel. They merely took it upon themselves to learn law and in most cases, while a man was learning his law, he was confined to a certain section of the administrative machinery in the office . It was not like that with regard to the White officials. They were taken from section to section in the office so that while a White official had completed his legal stages and was able to supervise the various sections in the office , the African counterpart may only know one section. That is precisely why there has been this long delay, for instance, in the promise of the appointment of some African officials as heads of

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That is a different thing. If he has no law subjects he cannot be a magistrate of a district . MR. NOGCANTSI : There are magistrates who have no law subjects. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : There are none. You seem to think you know more than we do, but you don't. That is why you cannot even ask questions properly in this House. MR. GUZANA: Would you say that the same thing applies with regard to a former secretary of this House? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes , he has had to be specially trained in many departments. For instance , I know that he had to get a lot of training on the expenditure and revenue section, which is most important in the magisterial offices . With regard to home guards , I just wish to say that the amount put here is not what will be spent. At present the amount spent is only R13,440 per year because there are only 112 home guards being employed . MR. GUZANA: Can the Leader of the Opposition have somebody hovering around him to guard him? (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Yes , if he applies for one and there are sufficient reasons . MR. GUZANA: Just because he is the Leader of the Opposition? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : No , not because he is the Leader. Mr. Chairman , I think I have replied to the most important criticisms . I will not go on to what my hon. friend from Butterworth said about White and Black police , and the magistrates and so on. MR. GUZANA: Will you answer three questions while you are on your feet? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I was unfortunately replying to points raised in the debate. I am not replying to any questions. The amendment that Vote 2 be reduced by R1,700 in respect of sub-head A, item Minister, was put and lost by 54 votes to 32. The amount of R480,000 under Vote 2, Department of Justice , was passed to stand part of the schedule . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : We shall now pass on to Vote 3, Department of Education , and I shall call on the hon . the Minister of Education to address the House.

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POLICY SPEECH BY THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION . Mr.

Chairman,

honourable

Paramount Chiefs ,

honourable ministers and honourable members, it is now the third consecutive year that I, as Minister of Education , am privileged to address this House on educational matters in the Transkei. The Department of Education has now been in existence for just over two years and I am happy today to report to the House on the excellent advances in the educational field, and to give the House a detailed and full statement on the aims and policies of the Goverment. In 1964 I gave the House a short survey of the development of education in the Transkei since its introduction in the nineteenth century. On that occasion I also made the following statement: "It should be obvious to any person of intelligence that to make drastic changes overnight without thought and planning can only result in disaster and I have decided consequently to follow the sound policy of hastening slowly".

ning of this year a new school attendance register was introduced based on the register in use in the European schools of the Natal Education Department. Gradually, therefore, the Transkei Education Department is taking shape as an independent Department distinct from other departments . Other forms, mainly of a statistical nature , have been drawn up and are in the process of being printed. Sub-head E provides for expenditure on various small items in the organisation and running of the Department. As the amounts are relatively small they are grouped together under this head.

Today it gives me great pleasure to state that the Goverment's approach in this matter was the correct one. The Department of Education has found its feet and it has done so without having to go back to wipe out mistakes. The future can therefore be faced with complete confidence .

Sub-head F deals with the maintenance of schools and hostels and the supply of books , mainly class readers, to pupils, and books for school libraries. This year an amount of R100,000 for school furniture, (desks, tables , chairs and cupboards) has been placed on the estimates under this sub-head. The Department is aware of the shortage of furniture and this amount represents an increase of R50,000 in comparison with last year. R135,000 has been set aside for the purchase of class readers for primary pupils. Every primary school pupil is now supplied with a reader in each of the languages, which he or she is permitted to take home.

Allow me , Mr. Chairman, firstly to deal fully with the financial provisions as set out in the estimates of expenditure . The amount in Vote 3 set aside for education in the financial year 1966/67 is R4,718,000.

In addition , R10,000 has been set aside especially for school libraries . It was also decided to make available R5,000 specifically for the libraries of the Teacher Training schools as well as teaching aids for these schools.

Salaries, wages and allowances will amount to R4,186,000. This sum allows for an increase in the number of teachers of approximately 500. My Department calculates that 300 additional teachers are required annually to cope with the normal increase in the school-going population . Furthermore, it is the policy of the Government to abolish double sessions and to implement the recommendations of the Cingo Commission on the pupil-teacher ratio in all classes of the primary and post-primary school. Naturally this cannot be done in one fell swoop and in making provision on the estimates for 200 teachers over and above the number required for the normal annual increase in the number of pupils , the Department has taken the first step to give effect to the Cingo Commission's recommendations that were unanimously accepted by the Select Committee and this House on Education of 1964.

The Department is also aware of the necessity to provide refresher courses for teachers. It is not only necessary to improve the knowledge of English and Afrikaans but with the new approaches in the teaching of arithmetic, science and mathematics it is absolutely essential that our teachers be kept informed. Hence , the Department is planning a permanent refresher teacher training college and R7,000 has been put on the estimates for this financial year in order to meet the expenses on special equipment and allowances to teachers called in to attend these courses.

Sub-head B provides for subsistence and transport allowances to officials of the Department . The increase of R2,400 as compared with the previous financial year I consider to be quite normal. Sub-head C (postal , telegraph and telephone services), may be only a small amount but it is nevertheless important. After the abolition of school boards, the former school board secretaries were retained as district clerks on the administrative personnel of the Department . These clerks are in daily contact with the Department's head office both telephonically and telegraphically and hence they form a very important and very useful link in the administration of the Department. Sub-head D provides an amount of R12,300 for printing, stationery , advertisements and publications. This amount is of special significance in view of the fact that the Department is now in the process of drawing up and printing its own forms. At the begin-

ES

•

An amount of R19,000 has also been earmarked for expenditure on equipment and materials for science subjects, handwork subjects , gardening and agriculture and vocational schools . As far as gardening and agriculture are concerned the Department last year purchased sufficient equipment for the schools in the Transkei. This equipment is now in the process of being distributed to the schools.

The maintenance of government hostels will cost R85,000 during this year and this amount is included in the R362,100 under this sub-head.

C

Sub-head G (bursaries to pupils) merits special attention. The Department has made provision for 15 loan-bursaries of R120 each per annum for the two year South African Teachers' Diploma course at Fort Hare University College as well as 10 loan-bursaries of R200 each per annum for the University Education Diploma, which is a degree plus one year teacher's course. The matter of providing more financial assistance to student teachers , also in the departmental teacher training schools within the limits of the financial resources of the Transkei , is receiving the attention of the Department. The very serious shortage of qualified teachers, especially on the secondary and high school levels

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三

is a matter of real concern to the Government. Last year in October the Department invited teachers , especially graduates, to apply for posts in the Transkei . Though this invitation was widely advertised in newspapers outside the Transkei the response was very poor indeed . However, I wish to assure the House that this problem of the shortage of suitably qualified teachers is a challenge which my Department is willing to take up . There are two state-aided special schools in the Transkei , namely the Efata School for deaf and blind children and the school for cerebral palsied children, Ikwezi Lokusa. This education is very expensive indeed as it is highly specialised and requires very costly equipment. The Government subsidises these two schools on the same basis as similar schools are being subsidised by the Republican Government. The amounts reflected under sub-head H and J are the subsidy for these schools . Sub-head K reflects an amount of R16,000 as a subsidy to hostels attached to the big institutions . The final amount of R8,400 on the estimates is indicative of the development of the Education Department as an independent Department. As from this year the Department will control its own Std. VI examination and to meet the expenses that will not be covered by the examination fees , this amount has been placed on the estimates. Such expenses are the setting, moderating and printing of the examination question papers and the printing and distribution of the answer books . The markers ' fees will be covered by the examination entrance fee which will be the same as in the past, namely 75c per pupil. 5)

ma

isa

heD

The estimates for this year therefore represent an increase of R377,000 on the estimates for last year, and this , I submit , is also in keeping with the expansion of education in the Transkei. Though this survey of the expenditure gives a fairly comprehensive summary of the Department's work, there are other matters I wish to refer to as well. The administrative personnel in the Department, including clerks in the offices of the Circuit Inspectors number 78. Of these only 13 are Europeans . On the professional side there are 65 European teachers out of a total of almost 5,400 ; there are 5 European circuit inspectors out of a total of eight. The replacement of Europeans in the service of the Department by Transkeians can therefore be looked upon as being very satisfactory indeed. I am also pleased to state that with the re-organisation of the Department's head Office , both professionally and administratively, many more posts , including promotion posts will become available for our people. In addition the Department is in the process of creating Vice-Principalships at the bigger schools . The first 25 such posts have already been approved .

I now wish to deal with the situation in the schools in regard to accommodation. Let me state quite candidly and openly that in many schools the position is not satisfactory. The Department knows that in some schools overcrowding is serious . However, now that all schools have become Government schools , the Government accepts its responsibility to provide the accommodation required. But, as the Department is not prepared to stifle all local - 141-

initiative in this regard, it is also willing to give preference, within the limits of the financial resources of the country and with due regard to the accommodation needs at other schools , to those communities who collect and pay in cash at least 10% of the cost of the building to be erected. I referred earlier to the introduction of its own Standard VI examination by the Department. This step was brought about by the fact that the new primary school syllabus was introduced at the beginning of this year . As this syllabus has apparently given rise to a measure of criticism in certain quarters , I now wish to make a full statement on the procedure adopted in the drawing up of these syllabuses. The Department appointed a syllabus committee for each subject taught in the primary schools . Special care was taken not to appoint seconded European officials as members of these committees . All the members therefore were Transkeian citizens teachers , supervisors of schools and Inspectors of Education. Three members of the opposition were included. The hon. leader of the opposition was a member of the English committee, the hon. Mr. Bubu a member of the Afrikaans committee and the hon. Miss Twetwa of the needlework and homecraft committee. The instruction of the Select Committee was to base the new syllabuses on the syllabus of the Cape Education Department. I now wish to quote extensively from the reports submitted by each committee. The Xhosa and Sotho committee reported : " The Cape Education Department syllabus was found too scanty to meet the requirements of these languages in which so much progress in their development had been made , to such an extent that they were now recognised as official languages in the Transkei ." This committee therefore made a careful study of all available home language syllabuses, and it was found that the 1963 syllabuses of Bantu Education were far more comprehensive and detailed . These syllabuses were therefore used as the basis for our own . The committee incorporated into the new syllabuses what it found best in For purposes of comparison studied the syllabuses of the Department for English and languages.

the other syllabuses . the committee also Transvaal Education Afrikaans as home

The Afrikaans committee reported as follows: "Your committee, on studying the Cape Syllabus found that Grade A Afrikaans was of such a standard as could be attempted only by pupils whose home language is Afrikaans . The committee also discovered that Grade B in this language was almost identical with the Bantu Education syllabus , and that in fact there was little to choose between the two. In order to meet the directive from the Legislative Assembly the committee adopted the Cape syllabus with adjustments ." The English committee reported as follows : "Casting about we found that the syllabus as drawn up by the Cape Education Department for English as a second language was the answer to our problem. " This problem was the fact that the syllabus of the Cape Education Department for English A was found to be too advanced. In the words of the committee "it was impracticable to start off the African child where the English speaking child starts ." I submit,

Mr. Chairman , that this view is so sound that it be challenged. However, the committee continues: "We therefore decided to adopt that syllabus (i.e. the syllabus for English as a second language) but subsequently found that it was in itself inferior to the revised syllabus for Bantu schools in the Republic. For that reason we decided to adopt the revised syllabus with adjustments." I applaud them for this; for having had the courage to give the Transkeian child a better syllabus, knowing what criticism may be levelled against them.

I , in conclusion , fully quote the report of the Arithmetic committee: "The principles involved in arithmetic do not allow of any differentiation according to social and economic conditions . Adaptation to the needs of a particular community/ society is limited only to examples which serve to illustrate a point. In comparing the Cape European Syllabus with the Bantu Education Syllabus , your Committee found, as could be expected, that the two syllabuses were almost identical and that the latter covered more ground in the sub standards .

Working on the basis of both syllabuses , your Committee drew up this Course and made such additions as would constitute an improvement , e.g. extensions in Sub B, various types of Short Methods in Stds. IV to VI, determination of area of a circle , scale drawing and graphs in Std. VI. It should be mentioned that in European schools the Std. VI classes are attached to secondary schools and in fact follow the secondary school courses in the various subjects. For that reason general mathematics is included in the Std. VI syllabus. In view of the fact that in Transkeian schools the Std. VI classes remain at primary schools and that the average primary school teacher is not sufficiently qualified to teach this section , it was felt that no useful purpose would be served by including general mathematics in this course. Every effort has been made, however, to equip the child adequately for whatever branch of arithmetic he may desire to follow on completion of this Course." Mr. Chairman, I do not think that it is necessary for me to continue quoting from the reports , I think I have quoted enough to show that these Committees made a sincere attempt to carry out faithfully the instruction to base the new syllabuses on those of the Cape Education Department. Where they found it necessary to deviate from this instruction they did so to give our children a better syllabus . Again I say to them: Well done ! After the syllabuses had been drafted they were submitted to every school in the Transkei for comments. If these syllabuses are in fact as bad as some people make them out to be then almost 1,600 principals with their staffs were given the fullest opportunity of pointing out weaknesses. Hardly any comments were received , and none whatsoever which had any bearing on the contents of the syllabuses. The final editing was done by a committee consisting of the chairmen of the various subject committees. Here then, Mr. Chairman , is a full report on how the syllabuses were drawn up. I think I have com-

pletely exploded the case against the Department on this matter. May I now make an appeal to all people in the Transkei. Let us stop sowing suspicion. The Government has in the educational field experienced nothing but sincere goodwill and cooperation from other education departments in the Republic of South Africa, including the Department of Bantu Education . This Government intends to maintain good relations with all Education departments in South Africa. We recognise the value to our people of such good relations. I therefore appeal to you to cease attacking and making derogatory remarks about the Department of Bantu Education over which we in the Transkei have no control in any case. These attacks serve no useful purpose as we are free , absolutely free, to work out our own education system. Let us now apply ourselves energetically to this task. Let us do so with an open mind willing to learn from the experience of others .

1

I regret to inform the House that the Technical College in Umtata has not yet materialised . The fact of the matter is that the planning of such a huge project is taking longer than the Department originally anticipated. In dealing with the Technical College as a project we must not make the mistake of thinking in terms of buildings and sites only. Very careful thought must be given to courses to be offered, equipment to be installed, staff to be recruited. Though we are all desirous of seeing the Technical College in operation we must bear in mind that huge sums of money are involved , and that it would be irresponsible to rush into erecting buildings before. all the aspects relating to a Technical College have been thoroughly ironed out. Though I am not in a position to point to completed buildings or buildings that are in the course of erection as tangible proof of progress made , it would be a serious mistake to assume that no progress has been made at all. I can assure the House that this matter is being expedited as much as possible.

During the course of this session of the Assembly the comprehensive Transkeian Education Bill will be introduced and thereafter the big task of drawing up our own regulations will follow. At the next session of the Assembly the Department will therefore have been firmly established on its own legal foundation . Mr. Chairman, I want ment, and therefore the knows the needs and the the Transkei . In addition

to stress that the DepartGovernment as a whole, problems of Education in to the needs that I have

already mentioned and which are of a more practical nature, I wish to deal very briefly with two further needs that will greatly influence our task in the future. In the first instance, if education in the Transkei is to make that contribution to the development of our people we all wish it to make, then we must introduce a greater measure of diversification in the courses offered in the post-primary schools. Technical , commercial and vocational education will have to be provided on a far bigger scale than hitherto. But I want to appeal to the people not to look upon this type of education as inferior. Unfortunately, there is some evidence to this effect. In a developing country trained technicians , men and women trained in commercial subjects and various trades are indeed indispensable. The Department is fully aware of this great need and therefore it is receiving the attention that it merits.

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2

2

In the second place the number of matriculants must also be increased as we are at the moment not producing enough of them. To satisfy this need the number of pupils in all the secondary classes will have to be raised. This is no mean task , as accommodation and especially suitably qualified teachers will be the deciding factors in whatever steps we may take. In conclusion, Mr. Chairman , I want to state as clearly as possible that we are in the process of building an education system that will be based on the normal and accepted educational practices to be found anywhere in the world, but at the same time we are doing so without losing sight of the particular needs of our children in the Transkei . We accept our responsibility and with the dedicated services of both the White and Black officials at our disposal we face the future , also the immediate future, with complete confidence . As the Department has only one aim to provide education that will be best suited to the needs of our people in the Transkei , I have no hesitation in now inviting constructive criticism . Such criticism 2 is always welcome and will always receive sympathetic consideration . I have great pleasure in moving that Vote 3 be adopted. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I second . ♦

MR. J.N. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have a motion which I wish to put forward, that the salary of the hon . the Minister of Education be reduced by R2,600 . The reason why is very obvious. In his policy speech he said that the schools 包 are his personal responsibility. He therefore means that the erection of schools is his responsibility. May I put it this way: How long will it take the Government to erect all the schools that are needed in the Transkei? Possibly 30 or more years. Up to the present time schools are being erected by # the public. Where do they get the money for the erection of these schools? Each school committee holds a little concert when they intend erecting 1 buildings to make a little money thereby. The hon. the Minister of Education has issued a new ruling recently. He himself was a teacher in the area about Lovedale and he is aware that concerts were held at night time , but he has issued a circular to say that no school concerts should be held at night now and it is a known fact that the express purpose of these concerts is to erect school buildings , which belong to him. Let us suppose that these concerts then will be held during the day because he alleges that the teachers get drunk during the night and also get into immoral habits. Pregnancy among the lady teachers is not a new thing and it is continuing even now. We therefore cannot understand why the principal teacher now has to inspect the lady teachers to see if they are pregnant . 2

MR. BUSAKWE : Let me leave that then. It has gone home. The children go by bus to the concerts from the various areas from which they come , and the bus will go to its terminus somewhere far away and from the point where the bus stops the children disperse to their various homes. Who is there to protect these children? Further, what is there to protect the teachers and mistresses from these evil practices? There is the trouble, Sir. To pass on , I want to refer to your statement that it is not easy to find graduates. They are not willing to take up appointments in the Transkei . May I suggest that a teacher ought not to take part in any political activities? Now if you , the head of the teaching profession , go around and talk politics , (take note of the fact that everybody has his own convictions and ideas about politics) and you make the statement that you are their employer and that you pay them their salaries and they should therefore do what you instruct them to do, how can a teacher who is not in employment at the present time come into the employ of a department like that? There is a cause for the shortage you state is experienced. You travel throughout Bacaland addressing teachers and telling them what to do. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You were present at my meeting. Did I ever talk politics? MR . BUSAKWE : At Butterworth you did refer to political matters . You are to blame , Sir. To go further, an employee ought to know that he or she is an employee and should know that this is how to behave. He should know that relationship between himself and his employer. This is the first time in my life I have known the trouble and disturbances you have caused , to take seven teachers at one time and transfer them to other schools without having had any meeting with the school committee and you gave them just seven days in which to pack. MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , I second the amendment.

·

THE CHIEF MINISTER : said that.

The

Minister never

MR. BUSAKWE: The Minister says he has never said that and the Chief Minister supports his statement. Why is a principal teacher instructed to see whether a lady teacher at school is pregnant? THE CHIEF MINISTER : That has nothing to do with concerts .

MR . P.S. SIGCAU : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise to support the vote for education and I say there should be no reduction at all in that vote , not even in the Minister's salary . I wish to state that even those who stuff cotton-wool into their ears will certainly have heard and approved the speech of the hon. the Minister of Education , giving the report of the work covering the past two years and telling us how much has been achieved in that short period. We have kept on advising this House that we must not hurry and expect things to happen overnight. Education is the backbone of any people all over the world. It is education which leads to progress . Last year when we discussed the question of education we advised one another to get away from political inclinations . In our activities outside this House we are making every effort to divide the people and to bring them into the political field as far as education is concerned. I therefore appeal to all my friends that we should do what we came to do - that is , to take education out of the political arena and forget our political differences. We note that there are post-primary schools and high schools which ought to be transferred to the Transkei Department of Education . As the hon. the Minister of Education explained, that is a task that will not be done overnight. It will take time . So too , the education of our children will not be achieved in a short time as we did state that we should drop the new syllabus. I hope my hon . friend understood that in the elections

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of the committee which drew up the syllabus , we picked men from the opposite side of the House and those committees have brought reports and showed that they studied carefully the work entrusted to them. Further to that, it was reported here that those reports were passed on to the teachers in the schools and their opinions were invited thereon. That was in order too . We have always held that most of the education officials are Europeans. From the number given by the hon. Minister, it is obvious that the number of European officials is decreasing. Even in the erection of schools, in spite of the financial difficulties and obligations ofthe committee, the people who can erect their own schools and provide ten per cent of the cost are being assisted by the Department. Further, it has been reported that textbooks on the languages taught in schools are supplied free of charge. My good friends , could you not advance helpful suggestions instead of always pointing out faults? The Government is promising that they will help us as much as possible in all the work that we are doing. This is what we ought to take note of. Take particular statistics of children whose parents are unable to take them further in education, take note of them and pass their names on to the Department of Education so that bursaries can be made available . This Government has stated that they have provided for refresher courses for teachers . What is it that you are laughing about instead of helping to improve things? MR. J.N. BUSAKWE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , to continue where I left off, certain teachers were transferred from Natal and they were sent to the different areas of the Transkei where they were not known to anyone, where they did not put in applications for those posts . A certain teacher collected witnesses , friends of the Government , and they came to Umtata and the people he had brought with him suggested that that particular teacher should not be transferred. Then the Minister of Education came to our area and he said that teacher would not be transferred. Another teacher whose health was not very good brought some witnesses and he told the Minister his health was not too good and that his wife was not very well either and he was told at Mount Frere there were medical practitioners as well. So said your Education Department . I would like to say that that is what your Department is a Department which sees that such things take place. THE

CHIEF

MINISTER:

Teachers are civil

servants and are subject to transfer.

MR. BUSAKWE: You mentioned the year before last that school boards should come to an end because they accept bribes. We did not oppose that because we were not informed about that particular practice. Now there are still bribes. The people who come to you carry bribes . Some other young man has come to your Department one of the six teachers - and he offered bribes to certain people

THE CHIEF MINISTER: You are making their position worse. MR. BUSAKWE: I have never addressed any meeting of teachers on political issues. All I do is to call the inhabitants and if the teachers believe in what I say, it is not my fault. I have never asked the teachers to support me. I am replying to you, hon. Chief Minister. Now, Mr. Chairman , this practice is disgracing the women teachers and your own children. It is a disgraceful thing. When ministers of religion were managers of schools one of the teachers went to the manager and reported that a lady teacher in the school was pregnant. The manager called the lady teacher and told her what had been reported of her. She asked who had reported it and was told it was the principal teacher. She replied : "He is responsible for my pregnancy ." They were both expelled. That is the trouble that you are putting your teachers into that they should inspect the lady teachers for pregnancy . I can never tell when anyone is pregnant, even with my own children. It is their mother who should know. And you want principal teachers to see if lady teachers are pregnant. This is disgraceful. We advise you and your Secretary to leave these teachers alone. It is only the women who can inspect a lady teacher. MR. V. GWEBINDLALA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , what the last speaker said has caused me to stand up because I know all about him. At one time when we were in this Assembly I rose to support what a certain member said and we made him chairman. We were sent by our electorate to come and support our chiefs in this House . We were once taken up and carried across the Umtata River. There were trees on the opposite side and I was the fourth one and when we got across the river we were shown much respect . An hon. member whose name I shall not mention came to us with a bottle of brandy and a four-gallon drum of beer and an immeasurable quantity of meat . (Laughter) Thereafter we were put into cars and there was a number of chiefs there. When we got here my friend here was asked a question as to which side of the House he was on now and he said: We are no longer members of that side of the House. I asked him why not and he said: I am not a commoner and I have never known a chief break away from the other chiefs to join the commoners . It was on that occassion that our roads parted and that accounts for their being on the Opposition side. No matter what they said we were no longer members of that side. (Laughter) What I say now is true. It happened just as I mention it. I am afraid to say what I wish to say about the last speaker. He did not know that this side of the House has its own opinions. I was very sorry when I saw him on the opposite side of the House.

The debate was adjourned. The Assembly adjoumed until 11 a.m. on Wednesday , 10th May , 1966.

but the door was shut in his face because your Department said they could not understand that. Now, Sir, all this makes it impossible for us to speak well of you because even if you do not get these reports direct, these things happen to your subordinates . We have just been informed in that area that some 25 teachers will be transferred in July. The hon. the Chief Minister stated that those teachers are being removed from me. I do not know what it is I have done. All I do there is to serve our people.

WEDNESDAY, 11TH MAY, 1966. The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m. Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.

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ANNOUNCEMENT.

51

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , with your kind permission I wish to draw the attention of the House to an article appearing in today's paper. The heading is "45 Properties acquired by Africans" . The second paragraph of the article goes on to say that the Minister of the Interior was not able to say how many people who acquired properties were given title deeds . I wish to say this is incorrect. In my reply I said that transfer is effected by means of deed of transfer, so it is correct to say that all such purchasers of property obtain title deeds for the property purchased . In other words , of the 45 properties purchased, all those people got title deeds for their properties . I just wanted to make that correction , Mr. Chairman. TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that this House resolves itself into committee of supply. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, I second.

N

Agreed to. House in Committee . The debate on Vote 3, Education , was resumed.

P

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3

MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am sorry that this morning I shall speak when I am not very well disposed. You will have noticed that for many days I have not been able to say anything but there are one or two things I feel I should not let go unchallenged from the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Education. When the Minister was writing his policy speech I think he never looks into his former speeches to correlate continuity in the policy of his Department. I will remind him of a few things. I am sorry the hon. the Chief Minister is not here. He held up a bundle of papers to us once , trying to make us understand that some system unknown anywhere in the educational field had come to the Transkei and it would be the best ever. It is most unfortunate , I think, that when this Department should be the one that unites the people of the Transkei , or at least lifts up this House as this House had honoured it , that unfortunately we have the type of Minister we have who cannot respect the honour he was given by this House when we said that a matter like this should be lifted out of the political arena. That wish is still there. We would that the hon. Minister rises to that request and takes this matter out of politics . He is not capable of handling it on political lines . Take it out of politics. An educationist like himself to bring an educational matter here and leave it to the people who know nothing about education , who say all sorts of things about matters they know nothing about. He is doing all sorts of harm to education in the Transkei. He has talked about a thousand teachers , principals of schools and so on. It does not mean that because I am a principal of a school that I am necessarily an educationist to evolve an educational system for a state. To come back to what he was saying, the question is : What is the system of education that we have now in the Transkei? Let me make that clear. In the Republic of South Africa

the system for our people is called a Bantu education system and it is a system for training an African up to a certain level of advancement. That is that system. There are other systems of education for other people, preparing an individual to exist and to rise to any heights of advancement that he may have been accorded in life. That is the difference. Now with the Bantu education system it is also an ethnically arranged thing according to ethnic grouping. That is why we felt it must be driven out of the Transkei system of education, and now what kind of system have we got? From what I can gather from the hon. Minister his Department has evolved a system of education for an African in the Transkei for the Transkei. He has not been able to show an educational dovetailing of all educational systems , arising up. He has always sung a song about so many people in the educational field, plus some members from this side of the House, but that is no excuse for the breach of faith of which he is guilty . This side of the House remembers who he elected to sit on the committees together with members on this side of the House, but that does not exonerate him from this guilt. The whole idea was to circumvent the unanimous decision of this House. Those committees have evolved the circumvention of the unanimous decision of the House. Now I will read here what he said last year in his policy speech. I quote : " Regarding the provision of additional facilities , I wish to refer in particular to the establishment of a technical high school and the proposed high and training school at Matatiele of which I made mention a year ago. It had been hoped that these schools would open at the beginning of this year but practical difficulties arose which made this impossible . Steps have, however, been taken to commence with the erection of both schools during the current financial "" year. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Time , hon . member. MR. A.N. XELO: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to endorse the remarks of those members who say there should be no reduction in Minister's salary and we also say that his policy is good. If I had my way we would actually increase his salary as a result of the good work he has done . As far as the criticism of the hon . member who has just sat down is concerned namely, that we must reach the necessary heights in education I wish to say that the hon. member is on his way to those heights. He is now a Minister of religion, but he was first a candidate for that position in the same way as a child grows from infancy upwards . Education is the very livelihood of a state or nation in the same way as religion . In regard to the attack on the hon. Minister in regard to the teachers , I wish to say that it is the teachers who must be put right because our future depends on our children. I compliment the hon. Minister for clamping down on night concerts. These night entertainments are a great danger to our children. My friend , the hon . Mr. Busakwe, has complained that the children will arrive home late from these day concerts. I want to tell him that with the present set-up we shall now be able to attend these concerts and return home with our children. They are the future leaders and they are the very people who should be trained. (Interjections) I wish to compliment the hon . Minister for stressing the need for an examination of our children who are largely responsible for our future . The hon. Mr. Busakwe remarked yesterday that it has been alleged that these teachers are being transferred from him . He denies this allegation but the fact remains that

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he himself introduced the teachers of the Willowvale district into politics , to the extent that at the installation of the Paramount Chief of Gcalekaland not a single teacher took part. (Interjections) All that they were busy at was the collection of money at the request of the hon. member for advancing the cause of the claimant Mzamo. The teachers have been so trained as to make them get out of politics and realise that they are acting in the place of the parents.

MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, when I stopped speaking I had quoted from the hon. Minister's policy speech last year, where he said that practical difficulties had made it impossible to open the schools last year. Maybe practical difficulties always will arise here and there, but for a responsible state department to have promised the people . where such a department is running an ethnical system of education we should have at least been told to give up, that the difficulties are such that the schools will not be built instead of being given a promise. We thought priority would have been given to us in particular in respect of at least one of the two schools , more so that when we had been given a promise that provision had been made in what are some of the best schools in the Transkei we were not given that privilege but were promised that a school would be built for us. We would not like to feel we are a stepchild in the educational fields of our country. We get the impression that the Education Department goes elsewhere and when they have nowhere else to go they wonder whether something should be done for the people of Maluti. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : We treat you as the firstborn.

schools and inspectors and so on are experts to carry out the recommendations of this House on education? THE CHIEF MINISTER : Do you know anything about education? MR. RAJUILI: I did not say I do, but anyway I excuse him because he has always said he is not an educationist and he is perfectly right. However, Mr. Chairman , to finish up my remarks, when the hon. Minister brought the idea of the type of syllabus we have , I had expected for courtesy's sake and for the sake of this House that he would have brought a report from the standing committee of this House.

1

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : There is no standing committee of this House.

MR. RAJUILI: Well, granting there is no standing committee at least the Education Department is responsible to the Government of the Transkei which in turn is responsible to the Legislative Assembly of the Transkei . You cannot deny that.

2

THE CHIEF MINISTER: They carried out the decision of this House.

MR. RAJUILI : Some noise-maker is in front of me. I asked the hon. the Chief Minister last year if his Cabinet has any right to circumvent the decision of this House and he replied monosyllabically and quite correctly "No".

3 THE CHIEF MINISTER: It was never circumvented.

ཟེ MR. RAJUILI : The hon. the Minister of Education says they treat us as the first-bom . Now, Sir, this so-called wonderful syllabus that we have in the Transkei is a reproduction word for word, paragraph for paragraph of the Bantu Education system, except perhaps for the history section (c) where they have thought they could make a good bluff by taking the Cape system of education. Except for that everything here, subject for subject, word for word , paragraph for paragraph, is a reproduction of the Bantu system of education. I am challenging the hon. the Minister of Education and the members of his Department. These people were shown this thing as though it were something wonderful . It is just a reproduction of repeating word for word, paragraph for paragraph of the Bantu education system . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Can you tell us how the Cape system is better than that?

MR. RAJUILI : The hon. Minister asks how the Cape system is better than that. In other words , it is an admission that what I say is perfectly true . This House, through a select committee, had advised his Department to get educationists to reply to the type of question that he wants . I would not assume that responsibility of experts in education. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Those were experts who drew up that syllabus. MR. RAJUILI: The hon . the Chief Minister says those were experts. Unfortunately he is always out of the House. He was not here when I was talking. Areyou telling me that the principals of the secondary

MR. RAJUILI : Now we have been told that Sesuto, Xhosa, English and Afrikaans have been gone into and these people who are no education experts have tended to take a syllabus that would be a standard for the kaffir child in the Transkei.

2

" MR. E. PINYANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, good things are never said about a person in his hearing. The fact is , our education can be put right. Of course we know the Opposition never praises anything but we do not blame them for that attitude, our belief being that they are encouraging the Government to go ahead. In regard to the complaint against day concerts I want to say the children of today want to be controlled . Everything changes according to time. Formerly these entertainments were often spoilt by unscrupulous persons or ragamuffins . Today these concerts are spoilt by our own sons, the teachers. In former times there was no drinking of alcohol by teachers. Today the teacher who does not take liquor is not regarded as a teacher by his colleagues. That is why it has been decided to abolish night concerts in favour of day concerts, which is the correct time for these things . The Government is increasing the number of schools because it subsidises the erection of school buildings. That state of affairs did not exist formerly. Furthermore the Government has made many new appointments in the teaching field. As far as the amendment for the reduction of the Minister's salary is concemed, I wish to say it is tit for tat. There is not a single member in the Assembly who would be satisfied with a suggested reduction in his salary without good reason . I am going to propose that the salaries of theOpposition members be reduced , and such a motion will actually succeed in the vote.

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(Laughter) I therefore confine myself to the hon . the Leader of the Opposition and ask him to see that things are properly done. If next year there are these amendments for the reduction of the Minister's salary, we shall retaliate by moving the reduction of the member's own salary. The syllabus has been improved and I cannot see any grounds for complaint. If the Opposition members considered the position carefully they would concede that the salaries have improved and everything is all right. Mr. Chairman , I do not wish to waste any more time but I contend there is nothing wrong with the set-up in education. Let the hon. the Minister of Education go forward. I would not like to reply to the remarks of the hon. Mr. Nogcantsi because if I did so I would be exposing him. MR. J. DUMALISILE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, it is a pity that from the time we rose the House has been trying to find arguments concerning this question of education, but the only conclusion we can come to is that the hon. members 21 on the Government side are suffering from mental indigestion. (Laughter) First of all I wish to refer tothe last speaker on that side , the hon . Mr. Ndabeni . This name has been taken from a location in Cape Town where he was working some few years back. I He alleges that the reason why teachers are being transferred to various places is that they never attended the installation of Chief Mzikayise Sigcau.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: He did not say so. MR. DUMALISILE : He said so. I refute that statement and I want to tell him that that statement is very wild. He is the very man who made that issue a political issue by bringing it here to Umtata andthen because he said it was political the teachers were satisfied not to attend that installation . I will not dwell much on that nonsense. I will refer the hon. the Minister of Education to page 17, paragraph 20, of his policy speech . He has admitted here that the Transkei Education Department is going to draw up a bill which is going to lay down his own

or his Department's regulations. If I put a question to him, can he tell me what regulations he is working on now, since the time he took over as Minister? I want to submit to him that at the present moment he is using Bantu education regulations. This is evidenced by the report of the committees on the syllabi , as contained in his policy speech. In almost every paragraph of the committee reports , the Bantu education system is being adhered to in the Transkei , hence it would appear that we have this circular No. 16. As a matter of fact if we get any seconded 1 official to the Transkei it will mean he will bring his own regulations . He has told us that we have B registers from Natal and, to say further, there are big pictures as big as that table said to be quarterly भु returns. He hasn't even a cupboard to put them in. (Laughter) No teacher can go to the Department's office to fetch them unless he hires a bus. They cover the whole boot of a car. I will go further than that and come to the shortage of teachers , and graduates in particular. I will just warn him that in a short time he will be lacking a lot of primary teachers . No parents are going to send their children to teach if they are going to be examined by men for pregnancy. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Shame! MR . DUMALISILE : No parent will send his children to teach if they are to be transferred at anymoment without notice . Now coming to the amount -- 147

that has been set aside for the Std. VI examinations, he did not mention how much a teacher gets for correcting the papers . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: It depends on the scripts. MR. DUMALISILE: He only says that the teachers will be paid out of the money collected for fees, which is 75 cents. If he did not know I will tell him that each teacher is paid 22 cents for each script. Now here is a question of money , and here is a question of an advantage for a pupil. The teacher has to rush to get more money in the centres where the work is being done. That is to the disadvantage of the pupil. If the teacher has to rush for money, then he cannot even keep up with the expenses per day , which amount to R1 per day at Butterworth as far as I know. That R2,600 should therefore be transferred over to examination fees so that these teachers will be paid better. Travelling expenses are not paid in regard to those teachers and yet the hon. Minister is paid an allowance of R2,000 for coming here from his place just next door. (Laughter) If you want to refute that I will say that the car vou ride round in costs more than R2,000 . So the Transkei Government is paying you over R2,000 for coming here every day. This shortage of teachers has caused a lot of trouble in Willowvale where some of the teachers have been transferred . Up to the present moment some of those vacancies have not been filled . In one of the secondary schools in my district there are old crocks who have been dismissed from Elliotdale secondary school , idling in the classrooms. We put these criticisms to you so that you must reply to them when you wind up. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I rise up to second the adoption of this vote. I have listened very carefully to the criticisms from the other side but what struck me was that it would appear there would have been no criticism at all had no teachers been transferred from Willowvale, for it seems everybody is harping on this question of transfer, forgetting that the transfer of these teachers is not a matter of policy. It is a matter of administration and if the teachers asked these members to put their case in Parliament, then they were totally wrong and I think they deserve to be transferred . I will just refer again to the question of home guards , where you said that these chiefs are being guarded because there might be something wrong in their own conduct. I would ask you to refer this very same question to the teachers who have been transferred . They should ask themselves why they should have been transferred, of all people , from Willowvale alone. MR. GUZANA: There were some from Clarkebury

too. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : But the hon. member does not see that and I will ask the members to look objectively at the policy statement of the Minister of Education and appreciate some of the steps that have been taken by the Education Department for the improvement of education. Among many things that I noticed there is a great evil that we inherited from Bantu education as such, which the Transkei Education Department has eliminated . I refer now to the double session in our schools. That was a very great handicap to the advancement of our children. The Education Department has found it possible to have sufficient funds to employ more teachers so that even the quota per teacher has

been reduced. I would also like to refer the hon. members to the free supply of readers which now the children can take home , while in the previous system they used to be retained in the cupboards. MR. GUZANA: Do they belong to the children?

THE

MINISTER

OF

AGRICULTURE :

Yes.

MR. GUZANA: Then why do you say they take them home now? Why do you imply they do not belong to the children? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I will refer now to the free supply of library books and the reduction of overcrowding in our schools by the Department taking over the schools and, over and above that, giving assistance to the people who have collected only ten per cent of the cost of the building. In this connection I must pay high tribute to the Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland for, in every Cabinet meeting that we hold, we always have a request from him that certain areas should be taxed or have agreed to tax themselves to raise money to build schools. I wish the hon. members on the other side to emulate him to that extent. I also wish to refer to the refresher courses which have been established . In Bantu education there were only refresher courses for Afrikaans . Now we have refresher courses for every subject in the curriculum and they are a permanent feature . Now coming to the syllabus , I think it is a frank admission from my hon. friend from Maluti that those members whom we went out of our way to co-opt to those committees were incompetent . MR . GUZANA: One of them did not attend those meetings. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Including the hon. the Leader of the Opposition , Mr. Bubu and Miss Twetwa. But this is something interesting - we did not co-opt the hon. Mr. Rajuili to our committee because he was so unco-operative.

MR. RAJUILI: I would not have served to undo what we had done in the House. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: He must be grousing because he was not on the committee. Now, Mr. Chairman, those Opposition members had a good opportunity of putting in a minority report if they did not agree with the rest of the committee but they did not do that.

MR. RAJUILI: What did they do? THE CHIEF MINISTER: They presented a report to the Minister.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: And there was no report at all to say they dissented, so I cannot therefore understand the reasoning of the hon. member for Maluti and what his yardstick is in education. He would like the Education Department to employ perhaps farmers or traders to draw up the syllabus. MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, when we discuss the education of our children we are discussing a very important matter. Unfortunately when we were given self-government we also had an old retired gentleman · a person who could not do any work at all, and it was said he must

go and finish up his last days in the Education Department of the Bantu people. It is for that reason that we have all these irregularities in the Education Department. At certain times, especially in the Engcobo district, he talks about rehabilitation instead of about educational matters. He talks about this in Engcobo and when the people started asking questions he got into his car and ran away. (Laughter) When he opened the high school at Clarkebury he was talking again about rehabilitation and not educational matters . In his mind he is always thinking of immorality and immoral questions. In an address in the Engcobo district he said the teachers come from their houses and go straight to school without even combing their hair, yet the Minister of Education is regarded with respect and ought not to be talking about matters of this nature. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : You have never been to one of my meetings .

O MR. MAJIJA: At one time I assisted him to find graduates in the Ciskie and the teachers told me that as long as the respectable Minister, B.B. Mdledle, was head of the Department of Education they dare not go into the Transkei . I realised that the children in the Transkei need education . What I have noticed about him is that he is a coward. He is always threatening teachers by saying he will expel them from the profession . We want to stress this so that you know you have done something which has never been done before. It will be said that when you were the Minister of Education you did these things and they will go down in history. It is you who are responsible for this. I think the best thing would be to tell the hon. Minister to leave the House and go and look after his sheep rather than reduce his salary. He has not referred to the strike at Clarkebury. E It was a strange thing. The principal asked the children to sit for an examination (that was Mr. Mkumatela) . Some of the pupils agreed to write the examination but others would not write. It was those who actually wrote the examination who were expelled from school , and it was those teachers who ३ asked the pupils to write who were transferred . It was quite clear that in that school the Education Department did not want anybody to write the examination. I have never heard of a person who keeps to the rules and regulations being transferred and the one who does not stick to the rules is left alone. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Every school has a discipline committee. MR. MAJIJA: You know nothing about education. You have never been a teacher. It is because of those actions of yours and these regulations which made you expel Mr. Majija and others from Clarkebury. (Interjections)

E

THE CHIEF MINISTER: So it is always the Majijas who are expelled?

E ¿

MR. MAJIJA: Whilst we are being given the right to conduct our education as we want it, you are clinging to Bantu education. I said you were a coward and here is the reason: We decided to have a select committee on education. You will find that in the Hansard. There were four members from the

Opposition on that committee but I do not know why t you suddenly turned a somersault. Evidently some- ' body threatened you. These are the reasons why I contend you ought to go to the farm and look after the sheep. Don't talk about rehabilitation at Engcobo

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instead about educational matters . There is this question of the Ndamse affair - a person who was paid a salary and was not doing the work. The Government evidently has money enough to pay people who are not doing any work. (Interjections) I am here to speak for the people.

TS!

dz

Tu

12

15

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Mr. Chairman, when I was guillotined I was referring to the hon. member for Maluti as having no principles when he said that our 1,600 principal teachers to whom this report was subjected for criticism knew nothing about education , because they returned the report with no comments at all. I am surprised as I just want to know from him what is his yardstick for an educationist. It was suggested in the debate of no confidence that these committee members were pro-Government people but who else could have been there to draw up the syllabus? When you were given a chance and you agreed , and in the select committee that we attended during the session in April, 1964 , I think it was, we were in full agreement with the hon. members on the other side to the extent that this House unanimously adopted our resolution . Now what are you complaining about? We handed it over to the Education Department and you are not telling us exactly how far the Education Department has failed , for if you read the hon. Minister's policy statement from paragraph 10 to about 15 , you will find that everything was done to get the best syllabus for the Transkei . In fact I can also agree, because I was one of the members of the select committee.

R

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I could tell you how we spread all the syllabi from the different provinces and we adjusted the syllabus for the Transkei on the same lines , with certain modifications , as the Cape European education system in accordance with the wishes of the Legislative Assembly. The House was represented on both sides and I am pleased to note that there is something that has been added . I find here that the finding of the area of a circle , which we did not do before , has been included in the syllabus · that is, x R2 which was not in Bantu education - and also scale drawing, and the drawing of graphs . That is a definite improvement on Bantu education and my hon. friend from Maluti, who makes hasty conclusions , says that the committee were wrong in adopting English B for the Bantu children. Well, what nonsense ! They have A for their Xhosa and naturally the second language must be B. You cannot load a child with two As in a language . Such irresponsible statements coming from a man with a B.A. degree from Fort Hare is a disgrace. THE Hare.

1

J

MINISTER

OF

EDUCATION :

MR. T.H. BUBU: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, the last speaker has just said it was necessary for us to point out definitely what we were complaining of in the hon. Minister's policy speech . I want to remind this House that during the last session we expressed ourselves in such a way that we were not satisfied with the way in which the syllabus was drawn. We indicated at that time that we were dissatisfied . At that time the new syllabus had not been produced or printed. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : So you complained even before you saw it? MR. BUBU: Today we are able to speak more definitely because the syllabus is to hand. To refer to the hon. Minister's speech, I want to turn to page 11, because from there we will see how the Minister has departed from the recommendations of the select committee which were adopted by this House . After referring to the people who were asked to serve on the committees, he tells us what the Department's instructions were to that committee. It reads : "The instruction to the select committee was to base the new syllabuses on the syllabus of the Cape Education Department. " I want to submit that that was a complete deviation from the recommendations of the select committee. The select committee had recommended the adoption in whole of the Cape Education Department.

MR. GUZANA: What a pity!

3

education , but I must warn the members on the other side that it is not fair for them to attack personally and to attack the Secretary of the Department for a policy, for a secretary only carries out the policy of the Government . He can never change the policy.

Not Fort

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : No , it was not Fort Hare. Now, have the hon . members not noticed the bursary loans that have been opened to fifteen students from the Transkei so that they will become our teachers? In addition ten more loan bursaries of R200 each , tenable at Fort Hare for four years, have been established. The only condition on each of these loans is that that child should work in the Transkei for four years , the duration of the time we paid for his scholarship. What further condition could you impose? Again, we must come to the other improvements in the financing of our

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : With adaptations. MR. BUBU: With certain adjustments and/or adaptations . The decision was not to base on but to adopt. When you adopt, you take the thing in its entirety and use it as it is . When you base, you use it as the foundation and you build what you like. I want to say therefore that the hon. Minister here admits that they did not instruct the syllabus committees to carry out the instructions of this House. From that springs the dissatisfaction we are giving expression to. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Why didn't you raise objections? MR. BUBU: It has been said that I was one of the people asked to serve on those committees. I think it is appropriate at this stage to say what happened on those committees . I must give it now because you seem to show that the committees went about their work correctly . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The committees did .

MR. BUBU: In this connection I want to say that it was very striking to find that when we arrived to work on those committees the Department had given no directive whatsoever as to what was to be done by the committees . At the very beginning of the meetings that were held, I asked for a directive. There was nothing that was produced and the hon. Minister cannot say now that there was. I would like to call upon him to produce it because I take it that if there was a directive he would have it filed.

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Consequently there was a lot of confusion as to how to go about the work that was to be done, so we had to have recourse to the decisions of the select committee. The members of the committee who were not members of the Assembly wanted to draw up a syllabus. We asked them along what lines. In the end I had to point out that the select committee had recommended that one of the two languages ,

tioned here so that when we get home we can report to the electorate that such things are useless? My opinion is that we do not know what we are about. With those words I support the vote. MR. BUBU: Mr. Chairman and hon . members .... THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : You will realise, hon. member, that some other members want to speak and I will take it as two speakers when one man speaks twice.

English and Afrikaans , should be adopted as medium of instruction; that we had therefore to provide, in drawing up the Afrikaans syllabus , for a higher grade and a lower grade ; and that the higher grade would be used as a medium of instruction while the

MR. BUBU: I just wish to finish what I was saying, Mr. Chairman. There was confusion about these points and so the two committees , the one on English and the one on Afrikaans , were brought together to discuss a common approach to the problems they were engaged upon and then after a prolonged study they decided that they were going to provide for two courses in each language. It was stressed that the language that was not going to be taken as a medium would be made a step lower than the language that was being taken as a medium, and SO we proceeded to work along those lines and the syllabuses we produced conformed to those lines. But now if you go to the syllabus you will find that the syllabuses do not show that. You will find that the two languages, English and Afrikaans, are treated on the same lines throughout. A child who starts studying Afrikaans from Sub A writes the same examination at the end as the child who starts it from Std . I. Similarly, the same thing takes

lower grade was just giving instruction to the children in that language. I explained that the second language, which was not to be used as a medium of instruction, was going to be distinctly a language of third-rate importance in view of the fact that Xhosa was to be the first language of the pupils. CHIEF E. MABANDLA : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , as a rule I do not often speak because I am naturally not an orator, but I am so amazed at the speeches here this morning because they do not deal with what is before the House . No attempt is being made to follow the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Education. Various matters are being discussed which are not before the House. We hear remarks of what was said last year and the year before last. I think it should rest on the shoulders of the committee to say why the decision arrived at was not followed . Education is a deep matter and a very important matter. It is not a matter for one to talk about lightly and aimlessly because it is for the children and also the posterity of the Transkei.

place in English. I wish to submit that that is very harmful to our children because in effect it means that our children are studying three languages on a very high grade. This means that there is too much time devoted to languages as against the other subjects. It means also that our children are being treated unfairly in the country in that they are the only children who are writing three languages on an almost equal grade. I want to say that that was not the recommendation of the select committee accepted by this House. If you look at what happened last year you will find that quite a lot of our children failed in Afrikaans in the senior certificate examination and you can also find that their scores in

PARAMOUNT CHIEF B. SIGCAU : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman , the hon. Mr. Nogcantsi has referred to the hon. Chief who is speaking as a "qaba" and I want him to withdraw that. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Will you withdraw? MR . NOGCANTSI: Mr. Chairman , I never said that. All I said was that educational matters should never be discussed by illiterate people , which is a truism. The education system should never be discussed by illiterate people. (Interjections) THE member.

DEPUTY

CHAIRMAN :

Carry

on ,

English were very low because what obtains in the Republic seems not to obtain here. In the Republic the Europeans write their own language say English on a higher grade and Afrikaans on a lower grade, but in our case they write these two languages on the same grade. It is the integrated grade , when we were asked by this Assembly to make a differentiation between the grades of these two languages. The hon. Minister must concede that he has put our children too much uphill there.

hon.

CHIEF MABANDLA: Quite a number of good things appear in this policy speech, Mr. Chairman. I am thinking of the increase in the appointment of teachers , about which nothing has been said. Where do we go from here? Mention has been made of telephonic and telegraphic services for the clerical staff of the Department . Are those good or not? What about libraries? Are they good or not? Why are concerts being dragged into this debate , because such things are not mentioned in the speech itself? Where do they come in? Is the increase in the appointment of teachers not a good thing? That is the type of thing which appears in the speech and which we should debate. The hon . Minister has many matters for his attention which are important for the people of the Transkei . If anything is amiss , why can he not be given proper advice? Why should he be criticized? Why cannot he and the committee meet so that they can examine the faults? Provision is also made here for schools for the blind. Are

THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is your committee. MR. BUBU: It is not our committee, because I say that our committee provided for two grades in each of these languages. If a change was made it was made by the Department. The Department had been given a directive on this matter. To crown it all, Mr. Chairman, the hon . Minister says those who have differences of opinion should have produced a minority report. There was no need for a minority report because there had been no differences . We had carried out exactly what had been decided by the select committee. Where was the change made? The hon. Minister must account for that.

these things wrong? Why are such things not men-

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THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is your syllabus committee . There is no change.

seless

MR. BUBU: I say there is , because in the syllabus committee there were two grades because we were adopting a syllabus that had two grades , and then where did this idea of two grades become destroyed? The committees carried out the idea of two grades and sent it to the Department , so therefore I think I have the right to say that it was t tos the Department that was responsible for the change , one until the contrary is proved. THE CHIEF MINISTER: As a whole the syllabus committee carried out the decisions of the House. MR. BUBU: I am talking about the committee on which I served and the decisions it arrived at. So you will see, Mr. Chairman , that it is wrong for the hon. Minister to say we departed from the decision of the House . As a member of the Afrikaans committee I say I do not associate myself with the Afrikaans as it appears in this syllabus . Further, Mr. Chairman , I must come to another matter. There is something which shocks us in connection with the putting of this new syllabus into operation . While it is a delicate matter because it concerns profesOUT sional matters, it is something that should be commented upon by experts. I feel however we must still express ourselves against what is happening . D THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : As it is now one o'clock we shall adjourn until 2.15 .

STR

に

F

=

AFTERNOON SESSION . The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m.

The debate on Vote 3, Department of Education, was resumed. CHIEF S. MOSHESH : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise up to support the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Education. Last year it was mentioned that the matter of education should be lifted out of the political arena . The address of the hon. Minister has been well understood on both sides. Education is a very wide field and to delve into it is just as deep and wide. As members of the Legislative Assembly the education that we are discussing is the education of our children , not our personal education . It was for that reason that we came to one conclusion in this House - that we should lift this matter out of politics and be willing, all of us, to help one another. I hope that the report of the select committee is in the hands of this Assembly and that is why we have now a syllabus drawn up for the Transkei Education Department. It is now the subject of debate. Some say it is the finding of the Assembly ; others say it is not. Members of this Assembly were not in the select committee and we ought to accept that the findings of that committee are the correct findings . We are happy that the report that now comes to us is the report of the hon. the Minister of Education. From the Opposition side there has been much said about the transfer of teachers in the Gcaleka area . We are well aware that teachers are the servants of the Government. They are employed under the rules and regulations guiding the employment of teachers in the Transkei and according to those rules and regulations they can be transferred from one area to any other area. It is not the school committee which can decide whether or not the teachers should be transferred. We have also heard much about the pregnancy of female teachers and misbehaviour

of male teachers . We cannot overlook the fact that our children are taught in the schools by people whose morals are not above reproach . If it is asserted that teachers who misbehave in the manner stated should not be put right by means of rules and regulations , then we are not conducting education in the Transkei along the right lines. It was further mentioned that in some cases a teacher takes a school choir along with him and when the concert is over the children are just left to find their own way home alone. Is that what a teacher ought to do? It is evident therefore that any teacher who behaves in the manner described here should not be in charge of our children, and should occurrences such as that happen in the schools the teachers are not behaving strictly according to the rules and regulations guiding teachers in the schools . The hon. Minister referred to the erection of school buildings. That is an old question. According to the expression of the Basuto people , he who makes an effort deserves everything. MR . H.H. ZIBI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, last year we were discussing this vote when the hon. the Minister of Education, instead of telling the world openly that he was not prepared to abandon Bantu education , which is part and parcel of his education policy , got down to personalities and became vicious. He quoted , among other things, an article from the Umthunywa that the hon . Mr. Rajuili and myself were so long in the Transvaal that we were no longer in touch with the Transkei . He further said I would have to wait for the opening of a mine in the Transkei because I was not competent to discuss education , but on the mines I am fit and well. Now I have to get over this attack by replying accordingly. The competence to discuss education does not of necessity mean you must teach a subject for over forty years in one school in order to be said to be qualified to discuss education. In actual fact if we were to consider the strictures of education as such, I wonder how many educationists we would have in this Assembly. He also advised that he said Mr. Rajuili and myself were born and brought up in the Maluti region. We were not bom in a farm area where perhaps we could have grown up under such names as "Kaffertjie " or "Klainbooi " (Laughter) and it is unfortunate that after a long teaching career he returned to his farm without the least knowledge of life in the rural areas . We , as people who were taught by him, are really ashamed of his Department. I am going to say it is the worst Department of the six. In the light of what has been said by this side of the House I need not even enumerate things in detail , but shall just speak in general terms . All we want of him is to tell us openly that his Department is not prepared to meet the wishes of the Transkei people, and anyone can be surprised how a Bantustan that supports apartheid could ever divorce Bantu education , which is one of the pillars of separate development , from that policy . There was a complaint here that we need not attack the Secretary for Education and I do not believe anybody has, but the only thing is that in the committees that were considering the syllabuses referred to he did not tell us once that he had some people he sent over to Natal to study the Natal system, and today there are registers from Natal which we are inclined to smell a rat about , and we want to nip it in the bud. (Laughter) .

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Education is the same in South Africa. MR. ZIBI : We do not know what system we have today in the Transkei . The Transkei people did not

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want any Mdledle system of education. They wanted the Cape system of education which is what they de cided on. Consider the time , the energy, the money spent on the committees to prepare syllabuses that were already on hand. The only thing was to take them out of a pigeon-hole and present them.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: What is your objection to the syllabus? You are speaking in the air. MR. ZIBI : The objection is Bantu education in the Transkei . THE CHIEF MINISTER : education in the Transkei .

There is no Bantu

MR. ZIBI : Unfortunately the hon. the Chief Minister was not there when the hon . Mr. Rajuili told us that word for word, paragraph for paragraph, it is the same. THE CHIEF MINISTER: He knows nothing about

it. MR. ZIBI: We have taken time to study it, please, Sir. I do not for a moment believe that the Transkei people were mad when they took this decision. Time and again reference is made to the Cingo Commission . May the hon . the Minister of Education be now advised that in the civilisation of the world the Cingo Commission is known as a commission of good boys and therefore it stinks as far as the Transkei people are concerned. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Then why did this Parliament accept their recommendations? MR. ZIBI : The principle of education can be discussed by anyone. You are allowing people who have never been to school to discuss it. At least I went as far as matric. THE CHIEF MINISTER : You went as far as matric and failed. MR.

ZIBI:

Let the

wishes of the Transkei people be met . Throughout there is that atmosphere of insecurity among the teachers. Teachers are irregularly paid ; teachers are summarily dismissed ; teachers are indiscriminately transferred. CHIEF F. GWADISO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, we have heard much that has been said in this House today. I have not much to say about what has been said by these members in the House. I am going to put important things which have come forward since the introduction of this education. There will always be complaints. When a thing is done there are always people who will complain . If you are building your house, someone will come and say you are not building it well and he will require you to demolish it and satisfy his wishes. Education does not affect a personality, but it affects everybody. The members of the Opposition criticize a thing that they think can be rectified and we are the ones who say they are not speaking the truth. No blame should be attached to the hon. the Minister of Education , but like all people he may have his faults. Nobody should suggest that his salary should be reduced . There are people who are complaining about the transfer of teachers, but they do not understand the reason why these teachers had to be transferred . Others complain about the day concerts . I hope that amongst us here there are

people who were teachers and who left the teaching profession for tangible reasons . Nobody should be allowed to go on with something that is not correct. Our children have been spoilt by those teachers whom the people are complaining about today. When things are being put right in order to put education on the proper footing then there are complaints. I do not know, Mr. Chairman , but it appears to me that there were also members on the other side on the committees. I do not know where they wanted to go to. Others are talking blindly because they just want to talk. You should know that things are being done for the people, not for you personally. I have already said that I have not much to say but I was just saying these few words to enlighten a few people in the House . I therefore support the policy of the hon. Minister of Education. DR. H.P. BALA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I will try to be very brief and summarize the points I want to mention. I would like to raise these matters and direct them to the hon. Mr. Mdledle. The religious education - would you please see that you take the syllabus used before the advent of Bantu education? We request you to do that because the present syllabus is much too long. Secondly, the two books "Nomsa ' and " Thandi" · please get rid of them at the schools. They are not suitable. You must go back to the old Stewart readers in Sub A and B because our children are not being taught properly and if you use those books you will go to Std. I without knowing anything about the alphabet. Further, this book by Mesatywa is not a suitable one. Mncube's book is a better publication . As you yourself are a publisher you could perhaps issue a better book. Thirdly, Sir, you promised that further grants would be made available last year and they were not sufficient. Would you please give us further provisional grants . THE

CHIEF

MINISTER:

Provisional

grants?

DR. BALA: There are provisional grants. The hon. the Minister of Education knows it and we want him to help the people so that they will not have to pay grants to teachers. We are asking you that. Fourthly, as Minister of Education would you please uphold your own dignity. Do not attend to people who come to your office to backbite and talk about the teachers when they may not be telling the truth. And from such backbiting you go and threaten the teachers in the schools. I refer to the fact that you leave your office here and go and travel far into the country as an inspector of schools. When you ask for registers, that is outside the province of the Minister and makes you disrespected by the people. I request you, hon. Minister . These are the things I wanted to put forward before the Chairman stops me. Now it owuld appear that Bantu education has come to stay in the Transkei . You like it or you don't like it . We are not satisfied and we say: Please don't. Now to refer back to what I said about religious instruction . The syllabus is very wide and the questions asked of the children are very tricky. Even theological students would not find it easy to answer some of the questions. I shall request the Minister to attend to the things I have mentioned. This is not a game . It is necessary that you revise the syllabus. Now since the incpetion of Bantu education there has been a general lowering of the standard of education and that was brought about by the sudden introduction of the Xhosa medium and the lack of suitable text books. As a result the standard of English has sunk so low that it is

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actually dying out. Actually I think it is gradually being replaced by Afrikaans, which is easier. Because of that poverty of English the science subjects and even mathematics have suffered because in those subjects you have to have a certain standard of English before you can master them. I just want to refer shortly to one item · namely , the bastardization and mutilation of our beautiful language by that meaningless jargon which has been invented by the so-called language committees, a " fanagalo" vocabulary which is not even understood by the rank and file. It is just a luxury for the schools . The language ought to grow from below, not from above. I think I have stressed the point of grants , because we were promised thatI said therethe would more grants available.last Thatyear is why hon. be Minister

I

must provide provisional grants because we thought that now the peasant would be spared from paying the teachers . Now about the teaching profession in general I think it is very insecure and most parents are now reluctant to send their children into the teaching profession. I will pass on because that point has already been stressed , and will come to something altogether irrelevant and too personal. The hon. Minister has been outstanding as a writer. He has made a valuable contribution to African literature . He has been specialising in translation , especially translation of that great English dramatist, William Shakespeare . Some of those translations

L

are good; some are mediocre and some are downright bad · for instance , that translation of Julius Caesar is bad. The latter ones, for instance Twelfth Night, he should have introduced a better title there · "Or what You Will " - because there are two titles for that play, "Twelfth Night, or What You Will". I think you should have chosen the latter one then it would have made better sense, and you could understand more easily the story of Sebastian and his sister Viola. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, before the hon. the Minister of Education occupies the floor to reply to the debate, after one member of the Opposition party has taken his share in the debate . I feel that it is my duty to congratulate the hon. the Minister of Education for the very efficient and considered policy statement which he delivered here yesterday. As you know, the Department of Education has the biggest share in our budget in that it has R4,718,000. It shows this House how important education is in the Transkei . Now I want to express my indignation and surprise at the attitude adopted by the members of the Opposition on this matter. Having failed in their multi-racial and provincial status policy they now concentrate on education and want to make education a matter on which they will go to the elections in 1968. (Interjections) In doing so they want to incite the servants of that Department in order to make them dissatisfied. I want to warn them that they are making the position of the teachers worse than it has been if they try to implicate them in politics . (Interjections) The Department of Education is manned by educationists - men who know what they are about. Teachers are civil servants and are liable to be transferred at any moment, like all other civil servants . No action is ever taken maliciously against these responsible servants , but everything is done in the interests of education. If, in the interests of education it becomes necessary that a teacher should be transferred from one school to another it is the duty of the Department of Education to make such transfer. The Minister has presented a detailed account of the expenditure on Vote 3 and I congratulate him and

his Department for such an exposition . Now I take it for granted that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is going to stand up after I have spoken and contribute to this debate, but I want to put a question to him as to who, amongst this conglomeration which we see here, can criticize such a highly professional Department as the Department of Education. All the people who stood up here merely tried to show the country that Bantu education had been reintroduced in the Transkei. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Do you deny that? THE CHIEF MINISTER: I put it to them as to what the Department should have done after this recommendation had been put forward to it in connection with this matter.

MR. RAJUILI: They should have done what this House instructed them to do. THE CHIEF MINISTER: This was the instruction of those committees to the Department - that the Transkei Education Department adopt the Cape European education syllabus for primary schools. MR. RAJUILI: Did they do that? THE CHIEF MINISTER : Secondly , in doing so make whatever adjustments and/or adaptations that may be necessary. In distorting facts you try by all means to overlook this second paragraph (b) of these recommendations .

MR. RAJUILI: The que tion is: Did they adopt the syllabus first? THE CHIEF MINISTER : The only reasonable man on the other side, Mr. Bubu , whom I congratulate in this debate, complained that the instruction of the select committee was to base the new syllabuses on the syllabus of the Cape Education Department. That is precisely what the paragraph says which says that in doing so they should make whatever adjustments and/or adaptations may be necessary . That is precisely what the committees did . They went through the Cape education syllabus for European children and found it necessary to make adjustments and/or adaptations as directed by that committee. It is quite clear, hon. members , that a select committee is not a recess committee. It dissolves immediately it gives its report to the House. Certain members would rather that education were static and did not develop with the times . They want a Cape education syllabus which was taught to European children in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. OPPOSITION

MEMBERS:

That

is

not true.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : These syllabi were submitted to the principals of the schools for their comments and all the teachers are satisfied that this is not an inferior syllabus to all the other syllabi in the country. You talk of the Bantu education syllabus. What is this Bantu education syllabus? (Interjections) You talk nonsense because before 1955 we were under the Cape Education syllabus which was known as Native education . Why did we have Native education? Why didn't you object to that? There has just been a substitution of the word "Native" for " Bantu" , but the syllabus we have is higher than any we have in South Africa.

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THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Your time is up,

1

hon. member. MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I stand up just so that the hon. the Chief Minister may continue. It gives the necessary interruption that coincides with the rules if he wishes to continue. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Do you wish to continue? THE CHIEF MINISTER : Yes , Mr. Chairman, I am very thankful because I have a lot more to say. MR. GUZANA: I hope you will do the same for me. (Laughter) THE CHIEF MINISTER: Now, I do not want to indulge in the low standard of debate depicted particularly by the hon. members from Gcalekaland yesterday, but I want the members to appreciate the fact that the Department of Education is the custodian of our children and has placed some of its duties on the teachers. It devolves on the teachers to appreciate that everything that the Department does in trying to maintain the discipline in the schools is done in the interests of the children. If the Department of Education , through representations from the parents , finds that it is in the interests of good administration and sound morals that concerts should be run during the day, it is not proper for responsible represantatives of the people to come and put up a decision contrary to the wishes of the people. (Interjections) THE

DEPUTY

CHAIRMAN :

Order,

please.

THE CHIEF MINISTER: I would rather the hon. tried by all means to give lectures to the and try to make them understand what the of the general public is towards these The Department of Education wants to maintain a high standard of morality and it will do nothing to deviate from that policy . members teachers attitude matters.

OPPOSITION MEMBER: But you are trying to introduce an immoral practice to maintain a high standard of morality. You must be careful. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, I am not listening to all these interjections , but I want to put it to my hon. friend across the floor that criticism such as has been brought forward by my hon. friend, the member for Qaukeni , can be considered by the Department if it is true that the recommendations of the Departmental committees were not adhered to. Every reasonable man can appreciate that the hon. member was serious when he made his statement and he was not just making it for political gain. As a professional man whom we know was not dismissed from that Department of Education, we can take him seriously. Now coming to my hon. friend from Johannesburg, the member for Maluti , it pleases me to inform the House that I was with him at Lovedale and I know him to have gone through the high school only as far as matric. I can present a better picture of education than he can, (Laughter) even though I had a bias on the legal side. But I want to tell him that he must not be wild in his

the only thing they can say about it. They would like to show the country that even though we say we have a Department of Education in the Transkei , it is still the Department of Bantu Education . The people however have better brains than these donkeys in front of us. (Laughter) I withdraw the word "donkeys" , Mr. Chairman . I will say these people in front of us like "Double- S" . The people appreciate that the principals of the schools know that this syllabus which we have in the Transkei is higher than any primary school syllabus in the whole of South Africa. When these syllabi were drawn up they were placed in front of the committee and the hon. members across the floor were present at those meetings . There was a detailed comparison and it was found that the syllabus we have in the Transkei is the highest in the whole of South Africa. Thank you , Mr. Chairman . MR . K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I would feel justified in referring to the two " Mats" across the floor , but as the one "Mat" did not feel inclined to take part in the debate I cannot do so. (Laughter) I am very sorry that this matter has become the subject of political exchanges for what I would regard as political advantage. One would have liked to see in the discussion and the debate something that would assist the Department of Education to implement, in practice and in spirit, the recommendations of this House as adopted from the select committee that reported to the hon. the Minister of Education, and I think the Minister must concede that what this House decided should be done has not been done, and would have pleased me very much if we had had an indication from him that in view of the expressed dissatisfaction about education in the Transkei he would again consider a select committee on this matter. I put it over to you, Sir, as a matter which could very well have saved all this dirty linen being washed in public. Let us put ourselves in a mind to look forward to that select committee without political passion , and see what we have. The hon. the Chief Minister referred us to page 162 of the 1965 Hansard and quoted as follows: "The Transkei Education Department adopt the Cape European education syllabus for primary schools and in doing so make whatever adjustments and/or adaptations as may be necessary." The question is: Has that been done? I shall quote from the English syllabus for Std. III from the Bantu Education Department, 1963 , and I shall read also from the revised syllabus in English for Std. III based on the Cape education syllabus for European children and we must find out whether we have the Cape European syllabus in anything that I put before us as the revised syllabus . I shall read from the Bantu education syllabus and I shall read from the revised syllabus , just one paragraph : Reading A group work linking with the lower primary syllabus with the object of establishing which of the pupils require special attention. Now, I shall not look at that and will read from here: Reading - Group A work linking with the lower primary syllabus with the object of establishing which of the pupils require special attention . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Read us the one from the Cape education syllabus.

statements . I can see that they are merely for political propaganda. There is no Bantu education in the Transkei , Mr. Chairman. The syllabus which has been drawn up by these syllabus committees is the syllabus which has been drawn to meet the wishes of the Transkei people and, after all , that is - 154--

MR. GUZANA: No , I am not going to read that. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Why not? MR. GUZANA: Firstly because I do not have

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it here, but I have got what we said we did not want. THE CHIEF MINISTER: But we want the Cape education syllabus. MR. GUZANA: And I have got here what we sought to have but is a duplication of what we do not want. THE CHIEF MINISTER: It is a duplication of the Cape education syllabus. MR. GUZANA: The hon. the Minister of Education will have the chance to prove me wrong. He is the last speaker in this matter. I am merely putting to this House the fact that what is in Bantu education has been copied word for word into the new syllabus.

200 THE CHIEF MINISTER: And what was in Bantu education was copied word for word from the Cape education syllabus.

MR. GUZANA: So what we sought to be done has not been done and in making adaptations you do not destroy the original form, but you maintain I the original form and make adaptations. EZ

H

n

THE CHIEF MINISTER: But you were a member of that committee. MR. GUZANA: If only you would listen . I was a member but did not attend. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Why not? MR. GUZANA: Don't ask me why. The fact is that you cannot say that what the committee said was said by me, because I was not there. Now we pass on to the next point. It has been suggested here that the double session has been dropped , and it is something to be commended that it has been dropped by the Department, but we would be grateful if the Department of Education would immediately and with greater speed implement the teacher/pupil ratio as quickly as possible in order to ensure efficiency both for the teacher and for the pupil. Then again, I did make mention during the no-confidence motion of the regulations affecting the school committees which were published in Government Notice No. 29 of the 26th March, 1965. You will notice, Sir, that the only substantial functions that can be performed by school committees relate to considering inspectors' reports , maintaining the school building and the school grounds and fences , and in all other respects they are merely acting in an advisory capacity. Is it not advisable that your committees , which keep you in direct contact with the parents, should have greater responsibility and should have powers to do certain things in relation to the school which may well approximate the powers of school boards without necessarily taking over all those powers? Then again , Sir, (I have to rush through these points) I want to make reference to what has come to my knowledge as a new system of examinations which has come to the Transkei. If my information is correct, a percentage of schools in a given district or area will be examined after so many years (two or three years) . Thus where, for instance, there are a hundred schools in a district 25 of them will be inspected this year by the inspector and then after the next three years another group will have this inspection . My fear under this method of inspection is that pupils may

well go from Std. I to Std. VI without ever having an inspection by an inspector. If this is correct, is it not wiser to maintain annual inspections in all the schools? After all, you are employing inspectors and they should do this job regularly in order to ensure maintenance of the standard at a high level. I shall not elaborate on this point because it is a matter which came to me by way of information and I would like the hon. the Minister of Education to give us a statement in that regard. Let me say that whatever we may say, whatever we may do , whatever we may think about education the last person to have the final word is the parent of the child who goes to school, and we must not disregard his wishes, we must not disregard his misgivings about the type of education that we are giving our children. Lastly, but not least, I am happy to note that quite significantly you have not made any mention of this Xhosa language committee which was made to be the hobby-horse of the hon. the Chief Minister at the T.N.I.P. congress held at the beginning of this parliamentary session. I am glad that you are sufficiently independent to shake off these, shall I say, irresponsible thoughts by your irresponsible Chief Minister. (Laughter) Last but not least, may I suggest to you that there is some dissatisfaction among certain district secretaries who were originally secretaries of school boards , but were taken over under the new system to become district secretaries of education? If I may point out that some of them do not get the allowance that attaches to their grade, you might be able to look into that matter. I shall note with pleasure the fact that there are district secretaries who, despite the fact that they do not have the qualification , are attached to Grade 2 as district secretaries and I shall request that they also should receive the same emoluments as those who have the qualifications and hold that post. When you reply, Sir, I would like you to give us some detailed report on the refresher courses and vacation courses which are being run by your Department. Once again I repeat · will you not consider a select committee? Thank you , Mr. Chairman. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am reminded this day of a picture portrayed by a poet depicting two men peeping out of the same window. One saw nothing but mud and the other saw the stars . We have listened this morning to a great deal of mud- slinging and I wish to treat those mud-slingers with the contempt they deserve. Allow me first of all to touch on a personal note. I am very pleased this afternoon to find my old friend , Dr. Bala, in a different spirit from that which he has shown all week . I used to teach him at Lovedale in the Scripture lessons and I tried to groom him so that at the end of his life he should go to the good place, but I have been very unhappy this week to see him so embittered that I fear he will go to the wrong place at the end of his life. (Laughter) Bitterness never helps anybody. It harms the embittered man . Now I want to go back a little. When I introduced my first policy statement in 1964 , I made it quite clear that the principal Act on which we were working was the Bantu Education Act and therefore we had to abide by those regulations . The only change we made was to abolish the school boards, and when we abolished the school boards we had to create some regulations to meet the situation . I stated here yesterday that I was introducing a new bill this session and one would have expected that criticisms would come after that bill had been introduced . Naturally, after that bill has

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been passed as an Act, we must draw up new regulations in accordance with that Act. I at the same time selected a committee to go into education then, because I wanted to raise the question of education above party politics. That committee adopted the recommendations of the Cingo Commission, which is so notorious to my old friend in the comer there, and my Department has all along been implementing those recommendations . There are many things we have done since then. I enumerated some of them here the other day. Even these vacation courses that my hon. friend is speaking about have been implemented already. Last July we had vacation courses at Blythswood, Cicira, St. John's College , Emfundisweni and Sigcau at Flagstaff. We are trying our best to implement the recommendations of the Cingo Commission . MR. GUZANA: I asked for some details about it. We heard from the hon. the Minister of Agriculture that it was being done. It was not a bone of contention · we just wanted to know because you have not even a journal for your Department. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : We have. So much has been said about a certain circular , but nothing has been said about this monthly circular which is in the form of a journal. Circulars are sent round by all departments amongst their personnel. I do not know what is contained in the circulars sent by the Department of Agriculture. The very fact that my own teachers should send out circulars to people who are not teachers shows there is something lacking in the discipline of the schools. May I ask my hon . friend please to put his inquiry in the form of a question so that I can get the information for him. MR. GUZANA: It is not in the nature of a question. You are replying to criticisms . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Yes , but there are certain things which must be done to enable me to delve into this matter, and also the point you raised about the conducting of inspections. I am afraid you have been misinformed there and if you put that in the form of a question you will get the information. MR.

GUZANA:

Haven't you

got the facts?

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : No , some of these things are office matters . You cannot just pass the information to anyone. Now I want to refer to the hon. member for Maluti . He said they were regarded by my Department as a stepchild, but I have assured him that we take them as the first-born child. MR. GUZANA: And I thought you said a cat's

paw. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I think that word is ringing in your ear all the time, because you used it last year too. As a rule we do not allow married women to teach and since there were so few qualified women teachers in Maluti we made a concession . We have not done that with any other people except the Maluti people. MR. B.S. RAJUILI : We appreciate that. THE MINISTER OF

EDUCATION : You made

reference yesterday to the Fort Hare University

College and said that the Maluti people , as Transkeians, should be admitted as Sesuto- speaking. MR. RAJUILI: It happened last year and we were thankful for that. 1 THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Well, why did you say I treat you as a stepchild? You remind me of two characters in Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress, Passion and Patience. Passion wants everything now while Patience is willing to wait. In stating that steps had been taken to commence with the erection of the Matatiele high and training schools during the 1965/1966 financial year I did not say that the schools would be completed , because further unforeseen difficulties regarding the question of a site were experienced a matter over which my Department had no control. I can assure the hon. member that the Department is fully aware of the need for a high school in the Matatiele area and has taken all possible steps towards this end. AFTER TEA ADJOURNMENT. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am sorry that the hon. member for Maluti is not here now because I wanted to add a little more to what I said to him. It was the intention of the Department to establish a high and a training school at Maluti on a farm known as "Wallace" which has buildings which used to belong to the Anglican Church. Then the Government has an intention of establishing a township near Matatiele and the question as to where these training and high schools should be, whether at St. Margaret's as formerly planned or in the new township. A certificate had to be obtained from the Public Service Commission before such buildings were put up and now that certificate has been issued and it is in the hands of the Department of Roads and Works, so we have not altogether forsaken Maluti. "I wish to refer to the hon. member for Qaukeni, Mr. Bubu . I thanked him last year for taking part in the committee to which he was appointed and I thank him more this afternoon for the statement he made, that they were unanimous in the recommendations which they made to the Department. Unfortunately I have no knowledge of Afrikaans and even though I have the syllabus book I do not know what is written in Afrikaans , but I am told that the statement he made here this morning was not quite correct. The syllabus as published is exactly as the Department received it from the committee . The hon . member referred to the decision to provide two grades of syllabuses in both English and Afrikaans . The committees did exactly that and the syllabuses as published are in keeping with this decision . If a proper study is made of the syllabuses it will be noted that provision is made for two grades one grade for the official language chosen as medium of instruction, and the other grade for the official language selected for the third language. I wish to refer now to the question about which so much noise was made the question of immorality. The Department receives almost daily complaints from school committees and parents about immorality amongst the teachers. The committees and parents point an accusing finger at the Department because they seem to think that the Department is protecting these people. Allow me to quote a few of these letters : "We, the onlookers , kindly ask you and we would like to know if Miss So-and- so who is presently teaching at such- and-such a school inthe district of So- and-so , under the principalship of Mr.

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de

ve

1

Z

So-and-so, is she allowed to teach, being pregnant as she is? That fact is a well-known one by her principal as he is the cause of the pregnancy. We would like to know if the circular which was warning the teachers was referring to teachers of low blood. Why is she still teaching although she is about to give birth? How can she teach our children like this, or what is the aim of all this? And this is not the first time, it is the second time of her falling pregnant in the same school and Mr. So -and- so keeps quiet. If this letter has entered the wrong office , please, Sir, pass it to the right office. " This is only one of· many letters and there they are. (Interjections) As a Government and as a people we must decide whether we are going to tolerate in our schools this type of behaviour on the part of the teachers. As far as the Goverment is concemed we decided that we cannot close our eyes to this . The principal is in charge of the school. If in his opinion a teacher has behaved in an unbecoming manner it is his duty to speak to the teacher and , if this has no effect, to report the matter to the Department. This is the normal and universally accepted duty of the principal of any school . The Department expects that the principal shall deal with unbecoming behaviour in a tactful and understanding manner, but the inescapable duty of every principal is to report such behaviour to the Department. Naturally such cases will demand tactful handling by the principal, but the principal still has to deal with it. If he takes his duty seriously, as indeed every principal should, then when a woman teacher is obviously pregnant he has to report the matter to the Department. If he fails to do this he fails to do his duty . Nowhere in the circular is there any suggestion that the principal should examine or do anything improper. To report to the Department is a completely fit and proper procedure and the Department does not intend to do away with it. The Department therefore takes action , and not the principal. I feel if the African people are going to condone an action like that we may as well write on the walls of our schools , on the slopes of our mountains - "Ichabod". I am sorry , Mr. Chairman, I have had to deal with this unpleasant question but somebody said I was a coward . I was never a coward physically or morally. I move that this vote be accepted . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. paramount chiefs and hon . members, we have reached the end of this debate and I will now put the question. It is moved by the hon. Mr. J.N. Busakwe that Vote 3 be reduced by R2,600 in respect of sub-head A , Minister's salary. Those in favour? The amendment was lost by 35 votes to 51. The amount of K4,718,000 under Vote 3, Department of Education , was passed to stand part of the schedule.

TABLING OF REPORTS OR DOCUMENTS. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have pleasure in laying upon the table the annual report of the Department of the Interior for the year ended 31st December, 1965 . THE

CHIEF

MINISTER :

Mr.

Chairman

and

hon. members , in accordance with the provisions of section 28 of Proclamation No. 334 of 1963 , I lay upon the table the Public Service Commission's annual report for 1965. Mr. Chairman , in this regard I wish to apologise to the House because owing to my absence on Friday last week these documents were handed over to me to transmit to the Deputy Chief Minister, the hon. the Minister of Justice , to lay upon the table, but they were inadvertently mislaid and all the time my Department was under the impression that they had been laid upon the table .

Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I lay upon the table Treasury replies to resolutions of the sessional committee on Public Accounts for 1965 , and recommend that the matter be referred to the sessional committee on Public Accounts for 1966 . MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman, before we proceed, may I find out what is going to be the position of the laying of reports on the table. Shall we be accorded some time , because it appears we should have had them before now, to discuss the reports? THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the debate on the Appropriation Bill will proceed until next week and probably after the various Ministers have delivered their policy speeches , hon. members can then take the opportunity of putting forward their observations in connection with the Public Service Commission report which has just been laid upon the table. I think , Mr. Chairman , it would be fair that they should be accorded that opportunity . THE CHAIRMAN: Is the Leader of the Opposition satisfied with that?

MR . K.M. GUZANA: Yes , Mr. Chairman , we welcome this opportunity because we did not have it at the last session and the Public Service Commission's report went through this House without any discussion. In fact we rubber-stamped it without any comment and we now welcome the opportunity given to us.

TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY .

The debate was adjourned . The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Thursday, 12th May, 1966 .

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the House convert itself into committee of supply .

THURSDAY, 12TH MAY, 1966.

MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman , I second that, but I would like to know if we are supposed to be supplied with these policy speeches of the Ministers. We have been told that we cannot see them until after they have been read.

The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.

Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.

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THE CHAIRMAN : Order, please.

House in Committee POLICY SPEECH BY THE HONOURABLE THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR . Mr. Chairman, honourable Paramount Chiefs , honourable ministers and honourable members , as in previous years I will give you a brief outline of the functions and duties of my Department ; I will refer to the main achievements of the past year and I will also give an indication of some of the steps anticipated for the future.

Let

me say at the outset, that although in

certain respects still in an embryo stage , the Department can, with a deserving measure of pride, look back upon what has already been achieved and I am convinced that with the present tendency of growth and development in various sectors , a great future lies ahead. The responsibilities of my Department are spread over eight different sections and I intend dealing with each separately but , before doing so , I would like to refer to what I regard as a few of the highlights that came about since the last session.

Another highlight was the reservation of areas for Bantu occupation or ownership in towns of the Transkeian Territories . Proclamation No. 336 of 31st December, 1965, deals with this issue and I do not regard it as necessary to refer in particular to each of the various sections thereof. I merely wish to point out that in terms of section four thereof any Transkeian citizen, individually or in partnership, may now acquire land or property in a reserved area. The whole of the areas of Cala , Elliotdale , Flagstaff, Libode, Lusikisiki , Mount Fletcher, Ngqeleni , Nqamakwe , Tsomo and Willowvale have been reserved for that purpose while portions of other towns and villages were also so reserved. The way is thus open to Transkei citizens to own and Occupy businesses and other properties in the urban areas of the Transkei , including Umtata , under free-hold title and it is up to them to avail themselves of this new avenue of progress and advancement, and I trust that they will make full use of

BARE &

I think, Mr. Chairman , that the hon . members might be interested to know the number of such properties in the various villages which have been transferred or are in the process of being transferred. They are as follows: Already transferred

In process of being transferred

0 10 6 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 3 1 17 3 2

Butterworth Cala Cofimvaba Engcobo Idutywa Libode Lusikisiki Mount Ayliff Mount Fletcher Mount Frere Ngqeleni Qumbu Tabankulu Tsolo Umtata Umzimkulu Willowvale

9 1 3 5 1 2 2

7

0

Lastly, I wish to refer to the very severe snowfalls experienced in the districts of Matatiele and Mount Fletcher during June , 1965. Conditions of distress were inevitable and immediate relief measures had to be resorted to. An amount of R4,800 was spent on providing, food parcels which had, on account of the heavy snowfall and impassable roads , to be dropped by helicopeters. I shall fail in my duty if I do not, at this stage , express thankfulness for assistance received from the Republican Government who , inter alia , made helicopters available for this purpose . The timely action by my Government in this matter prevented much hardship and suffering and despite some criticism in the press of the inadequacy of the Government's aid no single human life was lost because of starvation or exposure. STAFF. As regards head- office staff, eight new posts were created during 1965, namely two of clerk grade

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tour

the

PEAN SEATS

My Department will in future , to a greater extent than in the past, deal with matters concerning land and I am confident that it will be possible to do so without undue delays, to the satisfaction of all concerned and to the benefit of the Transkei as a whole.

S

I finally wish to add that since the beginning of this year ownership of 45 properties , situated in reserved areas in the Transkei , passed from European to Bantu and another 46 transfers are being negotiated.

29135I224 81HOT000

In the first instance I want to express gratitude to the Republican Government for transferring land belonging to the Bantu Trust to the Transkeian Government. In this connection I refer to Proclamation No. 93/1966 , which was signed by the State President on the 14th day of March, 1966 , and in terms of which the ownership and control of trust- owned land was transferred to this Government , without the payment of transfer duty or of any other charges. Although the fact of this measure and occurrence was foreseen when the Transkei Constitution Act was put on the Statute Book it is , at this juncture, welcomed and seen as another gesture of the mutual confidence and co-operation prevailing between the Republican and this Government. This House and the people of the Transkei can rightly be proud of the fact that with the publication of this Proclamation they have advanced another step on the road of self-government.

opportunities thus afforded. I particularly have in mind the acquisition or establishment of business concems in the reserved areas and although the Bantu Investment Corporation may assist in case of financial problems, I feel that citizens who are financially in a position to do so should, either individually or in partnership, come forward and venture in this way. By doing so , they will not only render a service to themselves but also to their people and to their country. In making this appeal I also have in mind those citizens residing beyond the boundaries of the Transkei who not only have at their disposal substantial capital resources but who have also gained valuable experience in professional or commercial fields and who are thus in a position to render great services to their own people in their land of origin.

30

Tel 200

ALO

I; four of clerk grade II , one of record clerk and one post of Switchboard Operator. Constant attention is being given to internal training of staff and good progress is being made in this respect. Several of the senior officials also attended, with good results , a course in supervision which was conducted by the Public Service Commission. WELFARE SECTION. Mr. Chairman , I now wish to deal with one ofthe most important sections of my Department , namely the Welfare Section. The rate of development of this Section has been so rapid that the staff has had to be doubled over the last two years .

Much progress was made during 1965 particularly.

222

Improved benefits for Old Age and Blind Pensioners and Disability Grantees were introduced by the Transkei Pensions Act of 1965 , resulting in an average increase per pensioner of R14.00 per annum. Although there may be some administrative difficulties in the way of such a change the possibility of paying pensions and grants monthly instead ofbi-monthly is being investigated by my Department. Legislation passed last session has paved the way for the introduction of a sound pension scheme for teachers with effect from 1st April , 1966 , the benefits of which will be comparable with those applicable to administrative, clerical and other personnel in the employ of the Transkei Government. With the assistance and guidance of the Departmental Welfare Officer, two strong district welfare 1 organisations have been established and registered , " namely "MASIZAKHE WASE MATATIELE" and "NTLALONTLE WASE XORA" . These organisations have already achieved financial stability in the short period of their existence, and " NTLALONTLE WASE XORA" has already been able to employ its own welfare worker. It is hoped that these pioneer organisations will go from strength to strength, and that their example will result in the establishment of similar organisations in all other districts in the Transkei. Over one hundred physically handicapped persons (including children) have been assisted in various ways, either by being provided with medical and orthopaedic attention, or placed in the care of institutions or in rehabilitative employment. A notable service embarked upon during 1965 was the organisation of relief measures to assist needy and indigent persons who fell victim to the severe, prolonged drought. A total of nearly 7,000 persons were employed on relief works in 17 districts at an expenditure of over R300,000 . Apart from this effort, close co-operation was maintained with the Republican Government, the S.A. Railways and the Mealie Industry Control Board to ensure an uninterrupted flow of maize and other essential food supplies into the area. Relief measures are being continued into the new financial year on a limited scale in the districts

of St. Marks, Matatiele and Tsomo, portions of which have not yet recovered from the drought . An amount of R50,000 has been provided for this purpose , as well as for relieving further distress which may occur later on in any of the formerly drought- stricken districts which have for the time being discontinued relief work.

The Section is busy with the planning and sponsoring of various welfare projects . The rate of progress and achievement in these directions is necessarily slow, due mainly to the shortage of personnel qualified and experienced in the work involved. Projects at present under consideration are a sheltered employment scheme for handicapped persons, and old age and chronic sick home, a children's home and a reform school. Apart from this , representations have been made to the Republican Government regarding the provision of permanent orthopaedic facilities in the Transkei , including the services of an orthopaedic surgeon , and the Department of Education has been approached in regard to creating special educational facilities for physically handicapped children who , due to circumstances prevailing in the rural areas , are unable to attend school in the ordinary way. The needs of mentally disordered persons are also being cared for, and, in response to representations made by my Department to the Republican Government, notification has recently been received to the effect that the establishment of a mental institution in the vicinity of Umtata is under consideration. The Government has already approved of the creation of four posts of Social Welfare Worker in the Regional Authority areas of Maluti , Emigrant Tembuland, Qaukeni and Gcalekaland , and the matter is now in the hands of the Public Service Commission which will proceed with the necessary appointments , etc. As soon as this preliminary part of the scheme has been successfully launched, steps will be taken to create similar posts in the remaining Regional Authority areas. It is hoped that the work of these Social Welfare Workers will in due course be supplemented by the services of Home Welfare workers employed by District Welfare organisations at present in the process of being established by public enterprise in each magisterial area of the Transkei . To enable my Department to supervise and control the activities of the State-employed Social Welfare Workers , it is intended to apply for the creation of a senior post of Welfare Officer on the establishment of the Department. In the case of the Labour Section also there has been marked development. Because of the increased volume of work, the staff has had to be trebled over the last two years , and now that the sphere of activities is becoming widened to include industrial and other legislation there will be a growing need for personnel with specialised knowledge and training. At present the Section's activities are confined mainly to the supply of labour. A first-rate service has been built up in this respect, and during 1965 a total of over 20,000 male Transkeians were channelled into employment through the Government Labour Bureaux alone . This represents a phenomenal increase over the recruitment figures for previous years. From this source , together with the record quantity of labour recruited by the non-Government recruiting organisations , the Transkei derived economic benefit exceeding R9,000,000 in the form of

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earnings remitted, saved and brought home by the migratory workers.

I shall now give you the figures of the registered workseekers awaiting employment .

Mr. Chairman, before giving this House the figures of the Transkeian citizens who are unemployed, I feel I must make a statement to this effect.

Bizana Cala Elliotdale Flagstaff Kentani Lusikisiki Mount Ayliff Mount Frere

From experience, entire reliance cannot be placed on the figures supplied as the operation of some district labour bureaux leaves much to be desired . With several exceptions, the position as revealed by the figures is about normal. Due to the constant coming and going of workers under the migratory labour system, it is inevitable that there will always be a percentage resting at home and therefore awaiting employment at a subsequent date. In other words , a surplus of labour is always in existence and therefore the supply always appears to exceed the demand . In several cases, however, for instance in the districts of Flagstaff, Matatiele, Mount Frere, Mqanduli, Nqamakwe, Umtata , Umzimkulu and Willowvale, the surpluses are larger than usual. These surpluses are, nevertheless , to a large extent seasonal. Most of the districts in question supply a large quantity of labour to the fruit farms in the Western Cape , and at present there is a lull in the operations of that industry. As an illustration of this I wish to mention that Mqanduli annually supplies over 600 labourers to one big apple farm alone. There has been a noticeable falling-off in the number of requisitions for labour received over the last few months as compared with the number received during the same period last year, but this is no doubt indicative of a normal levelling-off process in the overall economy of the country after a period of exceptional industrial development such as took place over the years 1963, 1964 and 1965. I am of the opinion that no special steps need be taken at present to solicit more requisitions for labour from the Republic, for the reason that the Republican authorities are well aware of the Transkei's need of employment openings for its migratory labour force, and under present economic conditions. could do no more than send the Transkei requisitions in respect of unpopular employment for which labour could not be obtained elsewhere. Experience has proved that Transkeian workseekers are prone to be very selective or "choosey" about employment (perhaps naturally so), and because of the sustaining nature of their domiciliary economy are able to wait at home for lengthy periods until such time as employment to their liking becomes available . This tendency is encouraged by the not infrequent availability at labour bureaux of extremely attractive contracts (particularly those from the construction industries where wages of up to 26½ cents an hour are offered).

For this reason, numerous requisitions have in the past had to be returned to the Republican offices concemed because it was not possible to obtain the required labour, despite the fact that there were labour surpluses or conditions of adversity in the Transkei at the time. Requisitions for labour received to date this year have resulted in close on 9,500 workseekers being placed in employment by the labour bureaux . - 160

Ngqeleni Port St. John's Tabankulu Tsomo Umzimkulu

Butterworth Cofimvaba Engcobo Idutywa Libode Matatiele Mount Fletcher Mganduli Nqamakwe We Qumbu Tsolo Umtata Willowvale

180 25 424 180 150 662 30 638 695 384 132 551 373

I shall carry on, Mr. Chairman . The increased recruitment of labour naturally played an important part in alleviating the economic hardship caused by the severe, prolonged drought of 1965, and therefore supplemented the relief measures undertaken by the Welfare Section of my Department in this respect.

1 IN C

Registered Workseekers Awaiting Employment.

Nil 1 164 511 136 154 360 713 181 39 50 157 742

A significant development has been the lifting of all quota restrictions in so far as the issue of recruiting licences to Transkeian citizens is concerned. Europeans are still subject to those restrictions . This relaxation will provide Transkeian citizens with increased opportunities in this field, and even now my Department is considering an application received from a prominent Bantu businessman for the establishment of a Bantu recruiting organisation. Because of the inter-dependence of the Republic and the Transkei in matters of labour supply and provision of employment, close co- operation is maintained by both governments at all times and at all levels to ensure the utmost reciprocal benefit to workseekers and industry alike . This close liaison and consultation extends even into the sphere of administration where, by a free and frank interchange of ideas, new methods and procedures to streamline and facilitate the work are formulated .

I would like to mention that on the occasion of a recent visit to the Transkei by a Republican Government Commission investigating labour matters, strong representations were made by my Government regarding the difficulties experienced by illegal in entrants into labour centres in the Republic. The Chairman of the Commission took notice of the པོt representations, and I have no doubt that the matter will in due course be rectified.

Reports have periodically appeared in the Press and public utterances have been made regarding the difficulty which Transkeian workseekers experience in obtaining employment in the Republic, principally in Natal.

Whenever such reports and statements have contained unjust and incorrect allegations, my Department has taken positive steps to refute them. A case in point was the grossly incorrect allegations appearing in a report in the newspaper "The World" dated 12th October, 1965 regarding unemployment th and starvation in the Transkei . These allegations were refuted, and the correct position explained at the instance of my Department in subsequent reports in the "Star" , of 9th February and in the t "Dispatch" of 10th February this year.

Without exception it has been found that complaints regarding unemployment have emanated from workseekers who had circumvented the accepted channels of procedure by proceeding on their own to labour centres in the Republic in the hope of obtaining employment there. Naturally their unauthorised presence in those centres tended to upset the controlled balance between supply and demand, and the only course on the part of the authorities was to require them to return to their home areas. Ample facilities exist in the Transkei for the registration of all workseekers and their canalisation through the Government Labour Bureaux and the recruiting organisations into employment in the Republic. Unfortunately only a comparatively small percentage of workseekers register with the labour bureaux, with the result that my Department is never in a position to gauge the supply position fully and therefore take adequate steps to ensure that sufficient employment is made available to satisfy the needs of all people seeking work.

ministers the department purchased Willowgrange and Tolofiya farms and two other adjoining properties during the year.

honourable

It also purchased , on behalf of the Department of Education, St. Johns College in Umtata . The acquisition of a portion of the Umtata commonage on which a Technical College is to be established is under consideration . It is anticipated that the re-siting of the National Road between Engcobo and Port St. Johns during the coming year will necessitate the resumption or appropriation of certain land and the assessment and payment of compensation in respect of such land. This will be undertaken by the Department in such a way as to cause Transkei citizens the minimum of inconvenience and hardship . During the 1965 Session of this Assembly I referred to the contemplated consolidated Land

The remedy therefore lies in the hands of the workseekers themselves by registering with the labour bureaux.

Settlement Bill. My Department is still at work on the preparation of this legislation but owing to the delay in the promulgation of the Proclamation transferring land to the Transkei Government and other difficulties which I need not here mention it

For further and more detailed information regarding labour matters I would refer the House to the comprehensive statistical report which is included in my Department's Annual Report tabled this morning.

is regretted that this Bill cannot be presented to the House during this session. In any case before it is presented to this Assembly regional authorities and magistrates should be consulted and given an opportunity to comment on it. It will therefore of necessity be delayed till the 1967 session.

Mr. Chairman, I proceed to deal with the Land B 72 Administration Section of my Department which is divided into two sub-sections, namely the Deeds Registry and the Land Administration Section. During 1965 the Deeds Registry sub- section handled well over 1,000 re-allotments and transfers , and issued over 300 certified copies of title deeds .

Mr. Chairman, I now want to deal with the Land Survey Section, the functions of which despite its technical nature are associated with those of the Lands Section.

The Land Administration sub- section inter alia deals with inter-district removals of Transkei citizens and disposed of over 532 applications during 1965. It also deals with applications for Native Trading approved. It thus shows TOSTE licences of which 180 were that Transkei citizens are keen to invest in this direction and provided initiative , experience and capital are not lacking they should be encouraged be to do so. Re ba The abolition of the two mile radius rule in

citizens are available to fill this post and all efforts to obtain the services of an official from the Republic have thus far been unsuccessful . The feasibility of carrying out aerial surveys in the surveyed districts which have been planned and where compensatory arable land and residential sites are required to be surveyed , is however under consideration and if adopted will certainly assist the acceleration of this necessary work. Negotiations with an aircraft company are also at hand and if successful , a sample survey in the near future will be an accomplished fact.

COC

1964 has without doubt resulted in this increased number of licences being granted to Transkei citizens in respect of Native Traders ' businesses being conducted on kraalsites and building allotments.

During the year the Cabinet approved the redetermination of the boundaries of Location No. 17, called Nxotshana, Location No. 18 , called Tabase and Location No. 20 called Dingwane in the district of Mt. Fletcher . This was done to facilitate the planning programme being carried out in these locations and also to give each of them their fair share of the very good grazing on top of the Drakensberg egatur escarpment. During the year the Department also acquired the farm Pama in the Xalanga district and obtained Cabinet approval for the redetermination of the boundary of Indwana location No. 17 so as to include it within that location . This was necessary for purposes of sound planning.

ay & In order to provide suitable accommodation for

Shortage of qualified personnel remains an obstacle and one post of land surveyor has been vacant for over a year. No qualified Transkeian

With the transfer of Trust land in the Transkei to this Government , the establishment of a SurveyorGeneral's office for the Transkei can be taken a step further and legislation in this respect will have to be considered in due course. Other routine matters such as the drawing of plans and diagrams, and surveys in connection with boundary disputes , subdivisions for school and hospital purposes, the exchange of land , etc. are receiving constant attention. Seven general plans and 450 diagrams were, during the last calendar year, approved by the Surveyor General. Diagrams were in respect of compensatory lots and the Lands Administration Section is now issuing the relative title deeds. Mr. Chairman , another important section of my Department is the Population Section which is concerned with the registration of births, marriages

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and deaths of Transkeian citizens.

were forwarded to private persons in the U.S.A.; U.K. and Europe.

During the last two calendar years the following registrations were effected :-

Births Marriages Deaths

1964

1965

28,485 3,141 13,086

27,726 4,256 13,070

The other purely administrative section is the Auxiliary Services section, which is responsible for services usually required for the efficient functioning of a Government Department and also deals with matters concerning accommodation , furniture, 2 equipment, transport etc. 20

In order to achieve this there were , during 1965- 18

Of the 115 applications for late registration of births and deaths 110 were approved.

(a) (b) (c) (d)

The following appointments were made :-

District Registrar of Births and Deaths

1964

1965

15

24

500 new files opened; 4,874 registered articles received; 4,038 registered articles dispatched; and about 30,000 other documents dispatched; and

(e) 25 circulars and 18 circular minutes issued.

aster CONCLUSION.

Assistant District Registrar of Births and Deaths

37

58

Ecclesiastical Marriage officers

10

42

The Electoral Section was responsible for all arrangements in connection with the by- elections conducted during the past year. There were 608 polling stations in the Republic and the Transkei manned by 1,732 officials. The by-elections were well published in the press, by the distribution of 160,000 pamphlets, by the display of 1,100 placards as well as at meetings held by Magistrates , Bantu Affairs Commissioners and Information officers . In spite thereof the polling percentage was very low, namely 46.7% in the Fingo electoral division and 33% in the Umzimkulu electoral division. Members will re-call that in terms of a 1965 amendment to the Electoral Act, absent voters are now afforded more time in which to cast their vote and I trust that more of them will in future elections

Mr. Chairman and honourable members , although m still a young Department I am glad to state that good progress has been made since it commenced activities I during November, 1963. Everybody can be proud of what has been achieved over this relatively short period , and I am convinced that with the co-operative G and good spirit prevailing in the Department and with the excellent services rendered by each member in of the staff, there need be no fear for the future.

Allow me, Mr , Chairman , to place on record my appreciation of the work done by officials of my Department. I know that they still have to face certain problems , but Rome was not built in a day and although there will always be duties to attend [ 0 to there will , as time goes on, be more and more to look back upon with pride . re Mr. Chairman , I move that Vote 4 be approved.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second, Mr. Chairman . ste

or by-elections find it possible to do so.

The debate was adjourned . A change in the electoral system is being considered by the Govemment. The Chief Minister has already indicated the nature of the change and I need say no more on the subject.

Chairman, I now want to deal with two purely administrative sections. One is the Stationery and Printing Section which is responsible for the printing and distribution to Government departments and their sub- offices of various types of forms and receipt books at the request of the Department concerned. It does not supply stationery to the other government Departments yet as there is an arrangement with the Government Printer, Pretoria, to supply the stationery needs of each of the Transkei Departments on requisition by them. This arrangement is working satisfactorily. The section is also responsible for the printing of the Official Gazette of the Transkei . During 1965 38 gazettes containing 66 Government Notices , tenders , etc. were published. There are 335 paying subscribers to the official gazette and 247 copies are issued gratis to Transkei . departments , members of the Legislative Assembly and certain university and other libraries . It further distributes the Debates of the Transkei Legislative Assembly and there were to date 431 copies issued gratis to various Government Departments , institutions , universities and libraries , 61 copies were sold to members of the public whilst 18 copies Mr.

AFTERNOON SESSION . The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate on Vote 4 , Department of the Interior, was resumed.

MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, before I stand up to speak (I hope you will not count this in reduction of my time) I want to make a special C request. You will realise that this is a very big Department and its report is correspondingly a very long one. Is it not possible to give me a little more than the ten minutes? Although I am entitled to G three periods of ten minutes, may I have a little more with the initial speaking in this debate ? I crave this as an indulgence in view of the fact that this Department is such a big one. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I will give you that concession. MR. GUZANA: Thank you , Sir. Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I have moved an amendment to the vote relating to the Minister's salary and I move that amendment accordingly . Under that amendment I wish to make the following comments , Sir: I think of all the departments that have been handling the business of the Government, none has been more

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thorough, more detailed , more expository on what it has been doing than this Department . I get the impression that they do their work diligently, that they have nothing to hide in the interior of the Interior cupboards.... (Laughter)

the conditions were about as severe as they were in Mount Fletcher and Matatiele districts .

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Withdraw your amend= ment then.

MR. GUZANA: Just keep quiet. Reports were made from the Qumbu district. Now, Sir, in connection with the conduct of elections , our experience

MR. GUZANA: I would not then have been able Ito say what I am saying now if I had not moved this amendment. I think you will have to come to me for lessons.

in the past is that many voters in the Transkei are illiterate and the Department of the Interior has sought to overcome this difficulty by providing two allegedly impartial witnesses to be present when the voting paper is marked in terms of the instructions for illiterate voters . We would like this provision taken a little further, Sir, so that not only is partiality excluded but it must also be seen to be excluded. Would the Department consider the appointment by the respective political parties of witnesses to be present at the polling when an illiterate voter has to have the mark fixed for him on the ballot

THE MINISTER chicanery!

OF

JUSTICE:

Lessons

in

MR. GUZANA: Lessons in how to compliment a Minister constitutionally without undermining his achievements. Briefly, Sir, the hon. the Minister of the Interior has referred to the transfer of land to the Transkei Goverment. THE CHIEF him on that?

MINISTER:

Do you compliment

#

MR. GUZANA: I will not compliment him on that because this is what we call the gradual drifting 1 of the Transkei ship away from its mother ship , the Republic of South Africa, and our party this side is moving in the opposite direction . THE status.

CHIEF

MINISTER:

Towards

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: No reports were made from there .

paper? This would, of course, mean that each political party would have to make available to your Department quite early the names of people who would serve as witnesses at each polling station. Sir, you have made mention of welfare work being done by your Department and this is commendable . The hon. Minister next to your right-hand side had a somewhat rough time over certain , shall we say, situations which arose at schools relating to lady teachers .

provincial

THE CHIEF MINISTER : He never had a rough time. You had a rough time.

MR. GUZANA: I want to comment on what he is doing and point our certain factors. It is in terms of the proclamation effecting this transfer that certain prescribed materials , or restricted materials, 2 or strategic materials have been reserved to the Republican Govemment. If indeed this transfer meant that the ownership would vest in this Government, why is there such a reservation? Such reservation are usually in favour of the Goverment where land is sold to a private individual. Our attitude is clear on the question of zoning and I will not canvass that point at this stage, but in the proclamation it is indicated that except for certain specified persons no one shall acquire land or an interest in land inreserved areas without the approval of the Minister, ઇ. which is the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development. My experience is that these permits take a very long time, to such an extent that the business transaction is vitiated by delay.

MR. GUZANA: You would not know what was happening even if you were drinking poison . You would think you were drinking something sweet.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : You don't need to have a permit at all. You are not a White man . Why are you worrying? MR. GUZANA: That always happens whenever I want to raise a loan with a building society to buy land. Now you see, the hon . the Chief Minister does not study the proclamation and makes wild comments about what is being said objectively about a provision of the law. I think that has been the position and the experience of those who have handled conveyancing relating to the sale of property in reserved areas, where the buyer seeks to raise a loan from a building society. Then again , Sir, you made reference to the relief afforded to residents of Matatiele and Mount Fletcher during June, 1965 . Now whilst the residents of these districts suffered from the severe snowfall, it is equally true that in certain parts of the Qumbu and Mount Frere districts

(Laughter) Now there is the problem of unmarried mothers which faces every nation in the world. This is a matter which I think the Department of the Interior should look into very carefully with a view to rehabilitating such mothers and with a view to providing or ensuring a future for those children who are born out of wedlock. I have been thinking of a very embarrassing position with financial difficulties which surrounds the period of pregnancy , delivery and post-delivery period before the mother is able to take up a job. THE CHIEF MINISTER: You should be a social worker. MR. GUZANA: I am doing that job now. Would you consider, Sir, establishing a sheltered home for these unmarried mothers so that their fate should not destroy their will to live , their will to become an asset to the State? You have referred , Sir, to the labour situation and the unemployment position in the Transkei . Now under your estimates I see there is provision for unemployment benefits , if I am correct. THE CHIEF MINISTER: No. MR. GUZANA: Under sub-head E.2 , Unemployment Insurance Act. I take it that this relates to employees of the Government and certain classes of those employees, not all. Now what is the position of a Transkei citizen employed outside in the Republic who comes back after his contract , seeks to get work and cannot get work? Is there anything to cover him during that period of unemployment? I ask because when you gave us the figures of

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people who are seeking work through labour bureaux the number came to about 10,000 and , allowing an average of five members to a family, making six in all together with the breadwinner, there is a potential of60,000 people who are afraid of the morrow because there is nothing to eat . This is a problem which I think your Department should face up to because there is a lot of unemployment, not because the people do not want to work. They want to work but they cannot get work. I think this is a matter for negotiation between this Government and the Republican Government; and may I suggest that when handling those negotiations this Department should consider the position of the man who does not go up to work in order to do manual work, but goes in order to seek non-manual work in the Republic , such as clerical work, as a messenger, and such classes of work as are not catered for through the recruiting system or the labour bureau system. Now , Mr. Chairman , I am going to leave the other points . Let me develop just this last one. Sir, it has happened that in surveyed areas people hold title deed to their garden allotment and pay, I think, annual quitrent. Now the owner of the land may fail for three years and he has to be served with a notice of forfeiture . It does sometimes happen that the service of this notice is not personal, the land is forfeited and transferred to someone else who pays the arrears . The original holder then comes up and says he was not served with a notice of forfeiture , and legally speaking he was still entitled to the land . But since transfer has been effected the Registrar of Deeds here cannot re-transfer the land to the original owner without getting a Supreme Court order . Now if this is so, would you consider legislation to authorise our local Registrar to legalise such transfers and re-transfer the land back, if indeed the original owner did not have an opportunity to pay the quitrent in order to release his land. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Your time is up. MR. GUZANA : Apart from the ordinary Thank you , Mr. Chairman , I thank you for the extended time . MR. J.B. NKOSIYANE: Mr Chairman and hon . members , I stand up to second the amendment. MR. Z. CHE MANE : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I stand up to support the vote of the hon . the Minister of the Interior . No one in the Assemb ly who has ears can say he did not hear the hon . the Leader of the Opposit the io when he complime hon . the Ministe of then Interior for what hnatsedbeen r done . I did not expect any critici sm from him although he was very brief in pressin a few things he should g have done . I wish to speak now in regard to the suggest ion he made in connection with by -elections or election . Would any secrecy be mainta ined if the s two politica parties were represe t a t he polling l nted booth?

MR. GUZANA: There are already two witnesses there. MR . CHEMANE: The fact that there are seven sections in the Department of the Interior suggests that there is a lot of work to be done , particularly in view of the concessions that we can now, as Bantu, obtain land in the towns. If there are two rivals for the hand of a maiden and one of them loses , then he can never see any good in the home of the girl. (Laughter) You have heard that R300,000

-

was spent on assistance given to starving people last year. That should enable you to understand that the Government is progressing. You have also idi heard of negotiations between the Government and the Republican Government in regard to our labourers who are working beyond the borders of the Transkei. That is a notable step, particularly in the province of Natal where there is no recruitment of labour, and there has been a very big complaint in Natal that there is no employment there. The report will enable us to bring back to the electorate the message that the Government is not asleep . Further, the Government's step in abolishing the two-mile radius will enable us to go forward in trading. It is obvious that the Opposition will never see any good thing done by the Government because it is always opposed to the Government and I am surprised if the Oppo- p sition will bring anything to the electorate if they as 1 are constantly criticizing every good step taken by the Government. Thanks have been expressed n for the increase in social benefits as a result of the t Government's action . The hon . member across the 1510 floor says that he himself suggested the increase. All I know is that not a single thing has been accomplished by the Opposition. (Interjections) 口 DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order , please. EC THE MR. CHEMANE : You are always talking and never doing anything except to criticise the govem ment. When you get home you will probably say that in what has been done has been done by you, but you can never do anything yourself. Your expressions of gratitude are not enough because you are opposed to any type of development. (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please. MR. CHEMANE: My advice to you is to associate yourself with the Govemment and vote with the Government.

MR . GUZANA: Sir, I would have liked to ask a the hon. the Minister of the Interior if under the k heading " Staff" there are any members of his staff who are due for promotion to senior grade clerks. If so , whether there is any prospect of them getting it that promotion, or is it that there is no work in the Department which should be done by a senior grade clerk? Then again, I would like to refer to a matter relating to persons who are treated at SANTA centres like the Fyfe-King SANTA Centre at Ncambedlana. I think these people receive a bi -monthly allowance which is almost nominal , and they come from near and far to be treated at these centres as their condition of illness is such that it is a prolonged one. They may recover or, if they do not recover, they die after a long period at these SANTA centres. During that period that he is being treated, his family is almost destitute. Now I give an example of a man who dies at such centre and when he dies the responsibility for removing his body from the SANTA centre to his home is on the family . Now, when at the time of his death his family is almost destitute , to such an extent that it cannot afford the removal expenses of the body from the SANTA centre to his home, more often than not those people then get a pauper's burial. Since this illness will be found even amongst the best of us and those who have a certain status in life, it is most embarrassing for an erstwhile teacher to be given a pauper's burial at the end of his life just because he happened to have no funds available to take his body home. Is it possible for your Department to guarantee transport of his body back to his home in the event of his death? I can tell you this is something which weighs heavily on the minds of the people at this centre, and such a state of anxiety is not conducive 164--

t

to quick recovery. You have mentioned your intention to have an orthopaedic clinic established here. We regret that the East London extension of that orthopaedic clinic has had to be stopped and it means that our crippled now have to travel a long way to East London to be treated, when formerly they were treated locally. Is it possible for your Government to put in some urgency to these representations to the Republican Government, so that that orthopaedic clinic is reinstated immediately to treat our crippled and those who are threatened with crippling tendencies now? Now you have said that the twomile radius rule, which was abolished in 1964 , has had favourable results. My own fear is that whilst you may crow over the fact that many trading stations have been established by Africans , this is a mushroom growth and economic factors will kill them again as soon as they have grown up. It is , I submit, too early to say whether or not the abolition of the two-mile radius is to the advantage of the Transkei trader or the Transkei citizen. Lastly, may I request that as you make your land settlement bill available 2 to regional authorities and magistrates , you should also make it available to the members of the Legislative Assembly before the session meets , so that we can participate in that debate constructively . Thank you , Mr. Chairman. CHIEF I. MATIWANE: Mr. Chairman and hon . members, i stand up to support the Government, but I think contrary to our expectations the Opposition has sided with us in this matter. I think the people

EI Et

-6

of the Transkei ought to be grateful to the Govemment because the Govemment has returned our heritage to us, but I think they have accepted this present with caution . I want to say that the conditions which exist in the Congo do not apply in this Territory. The Opposition , which we had expected to oppose us , is now siding with us. We treated them all along as rebels but they have now retumed home. We were together in bringing back the privileges enjoyed by our forefathers and which were taken away from them many years ago . They broke away from us thereafter, but they have now come back to us. Anybody who trains young oxen to the yoke and who hamesses them to a long wagon which has previously been drawn by old oxen would expect the young oxen to move slowly. The Afrikaner people from whom we copy these things have cattle of various colours . If an Afrikaner has a red team of oxen he introduces a black ox from time to time until eventually the team is entirely black. We are learning from the officials loaned to us by the Republican Government how to run this Parliament. I am thankful that the Department of the Interior has proved itself as a foundation for the Transkei . You have also seen how our youth are now driving railway buses , a thing which hitherto we had some doubts about. You have also seen how your grandfathers and grandmothers the old and infirm · have received money from the Govemment and how the Goverment has improved the pensions for the benefit of the recipients. You must remember the fable of the dog which had a piece of meat in its mouth and when it saw its reflection in the water it jumped at the other dog and lost the piece of meat it was carrying. (Laughter) I liken the hecklers to that dog. You must also remember that we are conducting an experiment and that the Xhosa nation must be careful not to be misled. MR. J.B. NKOSIYANE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, our leader stated very clearly that this is not the place for paramount chiefs . They should stay at home and supervise things there. Mr. Chairman, this is an amendment that the Minister's salary

should be reduced . If it had not been for the hon . the Minister of the Interior, I would not be moving as I do , for all workers must be paid according to the work they do. He receives a very good salary but he does not wish other people to receive good pay for the work they are doing likewise. He says there is no famine in the Transkei . In his policy speech he referred to the Mealie Control Board , whereas he has just said there is no famine in the country. How does he reconcile that? What is the use of the mealies which he says are constantly appearing in the Transkei if the Transkei people are not suffering from starvation? What gives credit and substance to this policy speech of the Minister is the fact that his Secretary is well acquainted with the situation in the Transkei and he knows what he is writing about, for he has worked among the Bantu people for a long time. It would be very pleasing to us if all the Secretaries would be like him, well acquainted with the districts of the Transkei .

THE

CHIEF

MINISTER :

They are all well acquainted with the Transkei . (Interjections) DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please. ANE : With regard to employment , NKOSIY MR. may I just say that he referred to R9 million being the wages of the people working in the different centres , and he feels this is money coming into the Transkei to develop it. If this were a higher figure , then the Transkei would benefit even more. He goes on to say the people should not seek work outside the Transkei. THE

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Who said that? MR. NKOSIYANE: How are they going to have this money coming into the Transkei if they cannot work in the Republic? This labour contract has many painful effects . Can your Department not communicate with the Republican Government to improve and alleviate labour conditions outside the Transkei? In 1964 I had a motion to the effect that the influx control regulations should be relaxed . It was the hon. the Minister of Justice who used the word " repealed" when I used the word " relaxed " . It is quite evident as I look at the reports here that this question of people going to seek work outside the Transkei was never really studied. They merely glanced over it. Criticisms have been levelled against one Minister already . They did not send this motion in as requested so that it would be the Republican Government that would turn it down. It seems they usually agree to a motion here and support it, and after the Assembly has risen they throw it away and pay no regard to it. I would like the Secretaries to take note that whatever we complain about should be carried to the Republican Government. CHIEF S. MOSHESH : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I rise up to support the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of the Interior and I do so wholeheartedly . I also wish to thank the hon. the Leader of the Opposition , but whilst I say so that does not mean that we cannot refer to some of the remarks of the Opposition members . The Leader states clearly that they strongly support the policy speech . He twice rose to speak, saying the same thing but there was in his words something of the truth which was lacking. Whilst he says he supports the policy speech he nevertheless did not say anything about his motion to the effect that the Minister's salary be reduced. If he cannot withdraw this motion then it is hard to understand how he is supporting the policy speech of the hon . Minister. All those who say they support us are very much mistaken and

– – 165 -

I do not think they are thinking very well . I think this is what he should say - that he is going over to the Government party. He has nothing to find fault with. Then he would be telling the truth and all would be witnesses to that fact and it would be better if even the other members of the Opposition did not say anything further. Indeed we do not pay any regard to the remarks of the Opposition members . We of the Government side , whenever we want anything from anybody, we want that person to say: Here it is! - instead of saying merely that they will note it, for remarks of that nature are usually repeated over and over again. Mr. Chairman , I would be very pleased if the Opposition , in supporting the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of the Interior, would not regard it as being their own , and when they give their reports in their electoral areas they should tell the people that the Government has said this, that and the other thing and that they approve of what the Government has said. I shall not single out any one fact in the policy speech because they have stated that they accept the whole of it. We say the hon. the Leader of the Opposition must withdraw his amendment to reduce the salary of the hon. Minister, because only then will we see that they have approved his statement. We would especially request you to put this policy speech as it is to the workers outside the Transkei. All those who have gone into the urban areas without going through the proper channels will always be returned to where they came from. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , I do not think the House has anything much to add to what the hon. the Leader of the Opposition put forward to the House. It would appear to me that the members are just repeating what has already been said. I think at this stage I will allow only one member from the Opposition and after that we will put it to the vote.

MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I note with pleasure that the Department of the Interior has paid much attention to the welfare of the people, for the health of the people in the Transkei generally requires that attention. I also wish to thank the hon. Minister for the promise that a mental hospital will be erected somewhere in the neighbourhood of Umtata and I hope that steps will be taken to realise that as quickly as possible, for this is one of the major troubles in the Transkei . There is another trouble which constantly faces the Transkei too. Among the people who suffer from tuberculosis there are some who have been successfully treated and such people do not get the opportunity to retum to their work centres like Johannesburg and other places. Can your Department not deal with the matter in such a way that patients who have been cured can find employment in the Transkei , working for instance at football grounds , in the municipal areas and in the grounds of the different hospitals? That would very much assist such recovered patients. There is yet another difficulty . We have several mission hospitals in the Transkei and these hospitals have an association among themselves. Is it not possible for this Assembly to become a member of, or have some form of negotiation with that association of mission hospitals so that each can learn the difficulties of the other? That is another of the things I would like your Department to take to heart. There are people who are suffering from T.B. and who do not take steps to see that it is cured. They merely go in for vaccinations. Is there

not a way whereby that could be implemented so that the people could go constantly for attention? If they adt happen to receive an old age pension, you could say pers to them if they do not go regularly to the centre for treatment then their old age or disability pension would be withdrawn . That would be a measure towards making them go to the centres for treatment and to the clinics likewise . The clinics are much in dat demand because many people do not go to a medical practitioner for fear they might be told to go into hospital , and they are not very keen on that because they like to be at home , the truth being that they fear to leave their families alone when they are in-patients for perhaps several months. If there were a clinic within reach of their homes they could be examined and X-rayed and go regularly for treatment and medical attention . Further we previously asked that miners ' phthysis awards be paid in a lump sum to anyone who suffered from this disease . We came to a unanimous agreement in this House on that point. We would like to know what the results were in this connection and in addition the insurance of mine workers. There is another matter in connec-

the

tion with the trading stations . You said that by the abolition of the two- mile radius there would be more trading stores. It has been mentioned by the Leader of the Opposition , Mr. Guzana, that a measure of this kind destroys the businesses of the people. The hon. Minister will remember what came out of the meeting of traders which he attended . He was requested to take note of this measure .

MR.

H.

NOLUTSHUNGU:

Mr.

Chairman and

hon. members , I stand up to support the hon. the Minister of the Interior, but I wish to thank the hon . the Leader of the Opposition for his gentlemanlike manner in thanking the Minister for his policy statement. It seems the Opposition members might lose their leader who might join the Govemment party . We shall be very pleased if we could get the Leader of the Opposition . (Laughter)

He 亚

1P !

MR. B.S. RAJUILI : I think he is quite right, because they have no good leader on that side.

MR. NOLUTSHUNGU: I shall therefore waste no time on this matter as it seems we are all agreeable and there is no need to discuss this. There is nothing to criticize except that the Opposition want certain alterations . If you are defeated , why don't you put up the flag? MR . S.M. SINABA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , the hon . Minister of the Interior did not explain clearly the difficulties experienced by the workers . He mentioned in his speech that there are labour centres where people can register for work in the Transkei . When we get to our homes we find that the people complain that they do not get employment , and when we get to the labour centres we find the Whites saying they cannot get labour. Last year, during the series of meetings which I held, I heard these complaints and they worried me and so I decided to investigate when I got back to Johannesburg. A lot of the factories explained that people who have been recruited from other places will go back to work at those factories , but they do not get them back from the Transkei . Work is offered them when they get to Johannesburg but they are told to come and be recruited first in the Transkei and then they do not go back. In other places like Zululand and the Northen Transvaal the people who are told to go and be recruited at their labour centres do go back. They tell us that they like people from

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五

IM

2

Umtata, especially those who have to do sanitary work, but they do not get them . I wish the hon. the Minister of the Interior would look into the matter. When a person has to go to work in the Republic because of certain difficulties experienced at home , something must be done by his Government to fix things when he gets to the labour centre . There is something that the hon . Minister did not mention and that is that a lot of women would like to apply for work but they have no offices to register at. I would like something to be done for those people . Another thing is that the labourers who are recruited at the labour bureaux are ordinary labourers and there are a lot of educated people who cannot be recruited for ordinary labour but who can do clerical work. Please consider that too . In the location from which I come, most of the people have no land and I would like the Minister to consider that too . In Matatiele area there are a lot of Trust farms and we do not seem to be getting those farms. We would like the " hon. the Minister of the Interior to have a say about them because we want to have them . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall now call upon the hon. Minister to reply to the questions put to him. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I shall just reply to the hon. the Minister of Health, Mr. Jafta. (Laughter) He mentioned the silicosis grants and also awards in respect of those who receive injuries in the gold mines. He wants an explanation as to how these moneys are paid, in accordance with the request that they should be paid in a lump sum. At the outset , I want to mention that these amounts were originally kept in Pretoria but at the present time they are kept in my Department. In saying so I want to point out that I am now in a position to go according to the wishes of the Assembly in dealing with these moneys if I see fit. It is quite true that these amounts are paid out bi-monthly, but the position is that these moneys are kept by us in trust for these people . There are some people who , if they were given this amount in a lump sum , would squander their money with the result that eventually they would have nothing . You will note that the idea is to keep the money during the lifetime of the beneficiary. There are those reasonable people who , when they want to draw these amounts , want them for something reasonable . There is no objection to such a person being given the amount asked for, provided he satisfies me. To pass on to the remarks of the hon . Mr. Nkosiyane , at no time did I say that the people should not proceed to work centres. Let him read my policy speech properly to find out what I said . To come now to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition , I wish 1 to thank him for his constructive remarks . I will start with his last point relating to the bill to be introduced next year. His request is to the effect that members of the Assembly should be supplied with copies of the bill before it is introduced . To be outspoken, Mr. Chairman , I want to say I object to that. Say you get a copy and keep it (I merely make an example) then some members here on the Opposition side may get hold of it and pass it on to their friends - say, the White people · with the result that the bill may be published in the Press. That is a possibility and that is why my reply is a definite No.

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : You will have an opportunity to discuss the bill in the Assembly . To pass on to his remarks about the abolition of the two-mile radius , when he said he feared that these trading stations are growing up like mushrooms, on page 11 of my policy speech I said: "It thus shows that Transkei citizens are keen to invest in this direction and provided initiative , experience and capital are not lacking they should be encouraged to do so. " These licences are not issued indiscriminately. I will further quote from my policy speech last year: "I would like however at this stage to correct a wrong impression that has been manifested in the press and elsewhere in regard to the effect of the Trading Amendment Act. It seems that there is an impression amongst some residents of the Transkei that the promulgation of this Act removes all administrative control in regard to the allocation of trading sites in the Transkei and that it opens the door wide for overtrading. " It goes on : " My Department will still continue to exercise administrative control over the grant of trading sites and licences and so prevent overtrading." You will note that hitherto those licences which have been issued have been issued to persons of a certain standard . Now to come to the point about orthopaedic clinics. I want to assure the hon. member that the present Government is giving its consideration to all matters ofthis nature. Whenever need arises for any development, we always see to it that that matter is expedited . I thank the hon. member for pointing this out to me and I can assure him we shall expedite the matter. He also mentioned deaths in SANTA settlements and that the transport of the corpse home should be arranged . Anyone who suffers from T.B. has the privilege of being in receipt of a disability grant and the hon. member suggested that the amount is rather low . All the same he does receive something . It will be clearly understood that while he is still indisposed his children can live on that amount. All people are not alike , as he pointed out and even teachers may contract T.B. Let us say a person who contracts T.B. is a pauper. His blood relatives can make representations to the magistrate's office for assistance in the matter of burial . MR. GUZANA: It is the transport .

THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: For assistance in conveying the corpse home. He also raised some question about the position of staff. There are three posts of senior grade clerk on the establishment . The present incumbents will in due course qualify for promotion to the next grade - that is , principal grade, There are ten posts of clerk , grade I , on the establishment. All the incumbents are eligible for promotion to the next grade - that is , senior grade . The hon. member also mentioned unmarried mothers and their children . Although the hon. Leader of the Opposition seems to be concerned over this matter I also want to mention that I , too , am concerned with parentless children , but then the question exercises my mind : Suppose we were to erect an establishment or a settlement where these people will live , will we not be encouraging this sort of thing? I am not saying that will be the case but it is a possibility . I am greatly worried about the children because it is only proper that they should be assisted . Mr. Chairman , in the main this generally occurs in the big towns and not so much in the rural areas , because those people still keep to custom . Be that as it may, my Department will investigate this matter. Further, he mentioned relief measures in the Qumbu and Mount Frere districts . Shortly

MR. GUZANA: But you are making it available to regional authorities , some of whose members are members of the Assembly , and also to magistrates. Why not to the people who are going to decide on the bill? - 167 -

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon . paramount chiefs and hon. members , the question is an amend. ment moved by the hon. Mr. K.M. Guzana that Vote 4 be reduced by R1,700 in respect of sub-head A, item Minister. I shall therefore put the question . Those in favour? The amendment was lost by 37 votes to 54. The sum of R2,972,000 under Vote 4, Department of the Interior was passed to stand part of the schedule.

Legislative Assembly -

In presenting this statement to the Assembly I do so with confidence because during the past year excellent progress has been made and my policy for the ensuing year is a continuation of what has already been proved to be a sound and realistic policy . Although I have already explained my policy on previous occasions I wish to reaffirm that basically my aims are to conserve the land, to increase the production of the crops generally grown and of the livestock industry, and to create new centres of growth and development whereby more employment will be brought about , more revenue will accrue to the farmer and the country, greater intensification can be achieved and more stability through more diversification can be realised. It may sound like over-simplication but no one is more aware of the complexity and proportions of the immense task than myself. The progress which is being made is encouraging and it is just as well to realise that we cannot expect to achieve lasting success unless we are prepared to sacrifice and to work hard with determination and purpose .

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after June , 1965, after the snowfall my Secretary and other officials of my Department went to the various districts to examine the position, but they did not receive any representations about conditions in the Qumbu and Mount Frere districts , but only from Mount Fletcher and Matatiele. In regard to the matter of rectifying registrations in the surveyed areas, that is going to be contained in the Consolidated Land Settlement Bill next year. There are some provisions for that. I move accordingly, Mr. Chairman.

10 ANNOUNCEMENT. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , before I move the adjournment of the House I have the pleasure to announce that my office has been advised that the State President assented to the Transkei Flag Act on Tuesday, 10th instant, so the people of the Transkei will be pleased to see the flag hoisted officially on the 20th at the Republican festival. The Assembly adjoumed until 11 a.m. on Friday, 13th May, 1966 .

FRIDAY, 13TH MAY , 1966. The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.

Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed .

Because it is my earnest belief that lasting progress in agriculture is only possible through the positive participation and effort of the producers themselves , I am concerned with the position as it is today. At every possible opportunity the Department is asked, by the people or on behalf of the people , that more should be done for the people or more should be given to the people. Many requests thus made indicate a responsible attitude , but many are also ill-advised and irresponsible . In itself reasonable requests are not wrong, but what is of the utmost importance is that the people should show some evidence that they are also prepared to contribute towards their own progress and the improvement of agriculture in general. It is to be regretted that there is very little evidence of an attitude of self-help , if any, at all. There are many ways in which the people could make a positive contribution . To quote only one example: the care and maintenance in planned locations of reclamation works which have been supplied to them by the Department free of charge.

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ANNOUNCEMENT . THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members of the House , you will notice that the Secretary is not present in the Assembly this morning. He has informed me that he is not feeling well and has just gone to see the doctor. I hope he will join us as soon as he has been found not to be very serious. TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY .

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I move that the House now resolves itself in to a committee of supply. THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS: I second, Mr. Chairman. Agreed to.

My Department is trying to engender such a sense of responsibility , e.g. by letting the people take a greater share in the planning of their locations and by trying to influence them in that direction through the medium of the Department's extension service . Most important, however , is the work my Department is doing in connection with a co-operative movement. Normally this is a field in which the producers should take the initiative, but I have found it necessary for the Department to take the lead. I am eager for co-operative schemes to become established, not only because of all the well-known advantages of co-operation , but also for the reason that it will foster the idea of self-help and give the people the opportunity to accept more responsi bility in managing their own affairs. It is , however, also the duty of every responsible member of the House to make the people realise that they themselves should contribute their share instead of just holding out their hands to receive.

House in Committee , POLICY STATEMENT BY THE HONOURABLE THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY . Mr. Chairman and honourable members of the

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The Department has nevertheless , made good progress during the past year. Without going into too much detail I refer to a few important developments .

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Indicative of the gradual development of the Department to meet the demands of the services is the fact that the establishment has increased by 191 since last year and the Civil Service Commission has approved a new post of Assistant Secretary. the field of Agriculture very encouraging progress has been made , although not completely satisfactory. When I say this I refer in particular to the progress made with the reclamation scheme. This scheme is undoubtedly basic to proper development and although much has been done in this direction , I would like to see more people coming in and accepting the scheme. In certain areas such as Emigrant Tembuland, parts of Emboland and Fingoland, the work has progressed favourably and it gives me great pleasure to say that Qaukeni Region has now also moved strongly in the direction of soil reclamation . In

The development of the Qamata Irrigation scheme is proceeding according to plan. I say it with pride. that my Department started the work right from the beginning with only one experienced Republican official in charge and an inadequate and inexperienced number of labourers . Today the organisation has been developed into an efficient team delivering work of a high standard at a tempo which leaves nothing to be desired. My personal opinion is that an outstanding example of development and a clear indication of the wonderful agricultural potential of the territory can be found in the district of Nqamakwe . Last year I reported to the House that special efforts were made in co-operation with the Fertilizer Association of South Africa to improve crop production in that district. It then proved beyond doubt that the maize production can be improved very markedly because good crops were reaped despite the serious drought. The scheme was continued during the last season . In certain land-blocks the yield was estimated up to 40 bags per morgen by very experienced persons from the Republic. If one looks at Nqamakwe district and speaks to the people, the advantages of the reclamation scheme are so evident that the resistance elsewhere against planning becomes quite incomprehensible, unless it is that the people just won't make an effort to improve their own lot. Last year mention was also made of a machine that was to be imported to decorticate Phormium tenax. I can state now that I was never too optimistic about the venture. At this stage, however, the progress with the machine has been very encouraging and it may be that my Department will have been instrumental in a very significant success with fibre production which may be welcomed not only in South Africa as a whole but also in quite a few overseas countries. In this connection I wish to mention that the Xhosa Development Corporation is actively engaged at present to prepare the way for the erection of a bag factory within the Transkei where all our Phormium tenax fibre will be manufactured into bags together perhaps with the fibre which is being produced in the Ciskei . Coming to certain specialised crops , the growing of which my Department has been investigating during the last two years, I have important information to give to the House. Investigation has shown that the growing of sugar could be undertaken reasonably successfully in the Transkei . In competition with sugar production throughout the world

it would, however, present big problems . Considering the world market for sugar together with certain local factors, I have instructed my Department to concentrate rather on the production of tea in the first instance, seeing that it is not possible to undertake too much at once with the means at our disposal . The prospects for the production of tea are good. My Department has consulted on a wide basis, also experts from countries outside South Africa, and I feel confident that we will have success with our tea growing venture. The Transkei is in a very favourable position with regard to tea production in South Africa and we should be able to capture a fair share of the South African market. Moreover, we have been assured that we have the best tea growing conditions in South Africa. An experienced and knowledgeable tea grower who has studied tea-production in all the tea-growing countries in the world, has stated that he has never seen a better tea nursery than the one he has seen at Lambasi. As to the quality of our plants we are also confident that we have of the best in South Africa. Not that we have no problems , there are problems. Of more importance perhaps is the fact that we are aware of them and that we are confident that we will be able to overcome them . The first aim is to produce sufficient tea to be able to support a tea factory with an assured supply . Thereafter the major problem will present itself, viz. to get the people to become successful outgrowers. We are hopeful that they will undertake the growing of this remunerative crop for their own advantage. At present we are transplanting seedlings into the plantation at a rate of 3000 a day and we are aiming at establishing a plantation with a minimum of 4 million trees. Thereafter we hope that the people will establish their own tea gardens.

Good results are also being obtained with pyrethrum and experiments are conducted with crops such as macadamia nuts . In regard to livestock I wish to state very briefly that the work in connection with wool improvement and the improvement of cattle is proceeding satisfactorily. Especially with the improvement ofthe indigenous cattle good progress is being made. The Government is actively assisting in the establishment of the Transkei Meat Industry which should start functioning before the middle of the year. This industry has bright prospects and will one day develop into a very important factor in the livestock industry of the Transkei . Considering the very poor season we had during 1964/65, conditions have been reasonably favourable during the past year. It is yet an indication of the good agricultural potential of the Transkei if it can withstand such a serious drought so well and show such a strong recovery from such adverse climatic conditions . Not that the territory did not suffer serious setbacks as a result of the drought. Very high stock-losses were experienced last winter as a result of the previous bad season. Another serious consequence of the drought, although not apparent to the public in general , was the fact that a large proportion of the Agricultural field staff had to devote virtually all their time to the organi-

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sation and supervision of work in accordance with the Government's drought relief scheme. Although some of the work could be arranged so as to fit in with the program of my Department, much of it was of little importance for Agricultural development at this stage. The result was that much of the time of my officers was taken up by the organisation and supervision of duties which prevented them from doing the work they were intended to do.

New plantings were adversely affected as a result of drought conditions during the past year but nevertheless, good progress was made and with the establishment of the new stations, new nurseries had to be established. Taking into consideration these developments much was achieved, especially since the branch has now also undertaken the maintenance of all the private forest roads within the forest areas .

The last two seasons have again demonstrated to us that the planned areas are much less vulnerable to drought and I am confident that as the reclamation scheme becomes operative over wider areas, we will be able to withstand droughts much more effectively.

The Veterinary Services branch has broken new -ground this year by introducing artificial insemination into the herd of indigenous Xhosa cattle where it was discovered that a dangerous venereal disease was threatening the success of the breeding scheme. This development may yet play an important role in the improvement of the herds of the people, provided certain difficulties can be overcome. I am not very optimistic about such a development because it is doubtful whether the farmers will realise the great advantages attached to it.

As for the Forestry Branch of my Department, I can report equally favourably. Important developments have taken place during the past year and this industry is destined to play an important part in the economic development of the Transkei . The plantations are gradually coming into the production stage, either by way of thinnings or clear fellings. The volume of timber handled annually is increasing and so is the revenue therefrom .

During the past year 2 forest stations were established. The one along the Matiwane range in the Tsolo district and the other in Umzimkulu district. This development is according to the already known plans to develop two main areas of afforestation in the two districts concerned, which will be big enough to support a major sawmilling industry and possibly also other secondary industries. Personally I believe that the developments in of Forestry will open up possibilities for field the Transkeians to establish their own undertakings. Possibilities for private enterprise exist for sawmilling on a relatively small basis at the smaller plantations. Deserving cases who wish to establish themselves in this field, will receive all the encouragement I can give. I foresee also that transport constructors can one day make a good living out of the forestry industry, and for the men with vision and initiative, the field is wide open for the esta blishment of joinery shops, and other subsidiary developments.

As a result of the increasing production , important improvements have been brought about at the State Sawmill at Highbury, and a new sawmill will be put into commission in the course of the year.

L

with many cattle in the Transkei. It is a very undesirable position which cannot only have a bearing on the health of the people, but it is also of great disadvantage to the farmer. Animal carcasses infected with T.B. are condemned at abattoirs and if the situation is not brought under control , the producers will loose much revenue over a period of time; revenue which is much needed in the Development of the economy of the territory.

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In many other countries, also countries which still regarded as underdeveloped, concerted efforts were made and T.B. in their cattle population has been eliminated . The time has come that we

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More important perhaps is the employment created as a result of the forestry development. For very many people of the Territoryit provides an income which they would otherwise have had to seek outside the Transkei. It is my policy to develop the forestry scheme in such a way that it will encourage people to work permanently on the plantations and at the sawmills. To bring this about it is the intention to establish villages at certain points and to provide housing for permanent workers where the circumstances warrant it. Here again it is easy to work out a plan and to devise schemes which look very good on paper. To implement such schemes is not so easy however, and numerous practical difficulties can be foreseen . Such development will also take place very gradually in keeping with the othe aspects of development at the forestry schemes

At this stage I wish to bring to the notice of this House two very important aspects regarding the health of especially our cattle population. It is a well known fact that cattle can become infected with a form of tuberculosis. This is in fact the case

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should also think seriously about the matter because it is to our advantage that this disease should be completely eradicated . I can give the assurance that such a scheme will not demand too much from the people and it will also not cost the Government a very great amount of money. The most important requirements are an efficient and well organised staff (which we have) and good co-operation from the people that we hope to get, especially if every member will, when the time comes, actively participate in persuading the the people that it is a good and very necessary scheme which they should support. Another important disease which the Transkei should try to stamp out in the cattle herds of the Territory, is Contagious Abortion. Most farmers know this disease but they do not realise that its effects can be eliminated. This would mean thousands more calves that will be born in the Transkei every year which in tum will mean so many more animals that can be sold every year. With the co-operation of everybody concemed also this disease can be effectively combated and I am at present considering the advisability to introduce such a scheme as soon as possible. During the past year my Department has also paid special attention to the possibilities of fish farming. Although it could play an important part in food production my Department finds it extremely difficult with the means at its disposal to do much

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more about it at present. The control of fishing in the natural waters is, however, attended to. It is

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a great natural asset and renders a regular income in the form of licence fees .

My previously expressed desire to conserve some of the wild life of the Transkei remains as strong as ever and I hope to report definite progress in this regard in future. Many of the members will be pleased to hear that a third pack of hunting dogs is now operating in the Transkei and that good results are obtained with the extermination of vermin.

Mr. Chairman I have endeavoured to give the House a broad picture of what is being done to put my previously declared policy into effect. I sincerely hope that everyone will realise that it is a gigantic task and that if we all work together to bring about the urgently needed improvement, the people as a whole will be rendered a great service. I move that Vote V be approved. THE MINISTER Chairman.

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second , Mr.

MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. memibers, I rise up to move an amendment:

A

"That Vote V be reduced by R2,600 in respect of sub-head A, Minister's salary."

Mr. Chairman, this is the third year of our listening to the report of the hon. Minister. He constantly intimates that agriculture is very important in the lives of the people, and of a truth 51 there is no nation which can live without its agricultural activities. There is a matter which I should like to refer to and which has led to my moving this amendment. As I travel through the Transkei I have seen a great increase of noxious weeds since the hon. Minister took office. As you go towards the sea you will see in the arable lands the truth of the statement I am making and these noxious weeds destroy our pastoral areas. It also affects our wool unfavourably. This is a matter which should occupy the Department of Agriculture. These noxious weeds should be destroyed before they have seeded themselves..... 12

THE CHIEF MINISTER: By whom?

MR. JAFTA: ....for after the noxious weed has gone to seed any expenditure of money is wasted. As the hon. Minister himself stated in his policy speech, I have noted that he speaks on behalf of certain groups of people. He merely refers to onethird of the people, but two-thirds of the population is left in the lurch. Of the two-thirds I am referring . particularly to the very poor people, and they form the greater proportion of our population . The hon. Minister referred to the Nqamakwe area where he invited us to go and see the progress that is being made in that district, and at Tsolo likewise. However, though progress has been made in that direction , there is still a great number of people who have been left without help. These poor people who live under difficulties ought to occupy your attention and something ought to be done for them. There are ways of getting into touch with the people to make them understand what is needed for they are in a sad plight. They suffer from famine and diseases; they

lose most of their children through death, but there is not a way of coming into direct contact with these people. It has been repeatedly said that in the Transkei no people have died as a result of starvation and famine, but it is a well known fact to you as well as to me, both being resident in the reserves , how many young children die as a result of malnutrition and famine due to the fact that their mothers are ill-fed. If you should visit the doctors ' surgeries you will find from them that very many children who are taken to them suffer from malnutrition , kwashiorkor, summer diarrhoea; and all these diseases are directly or indirectly due to famine. Children die daily from these diseases and that truth cannot be denied. (Interjections) That is a fact and it ought to be a matter for the Minister to take seriously to heart. (Interjections ) THE

DEPUTY

CHAIRMAN:

Order,

please.

MR. JAFTA: Perhaps it is laziness on the hon. Minister's part but it may also be ignorance, but if you know that this state of affairs exists you ought to take measures to see that this is rectified. We have lost about R8 million in the last year through the purchase of maize. Does this great expenditure not indicate that something must be done for the poor people? I say this because you, as one of the Bantu and in charge of an important Department, know these things as well as I do. If you go to your own area after this session and inquire about the number of children who have died you will be told that many of them have died. (Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The stenographer cannot hear what the speaker is saying if you make all this noise. MR . JAFTA: This constant dying of children year in, year out, has come to be regarded as a normal thing because it happens so often. They do not even pay attention to it in some areas. In this regard I would request you to send a commission to look into these matters . CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE: I second the amendment, Mr. Chairman and hon. members . MR . E.G. SIHELE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I wish to say that the salary of the hon. Minister should not be reduced because he has done good work, especially as I have worked with agriculture in the Transkei for a long time and when I see the standard it has reached now I commend him for it. If the late Mr. Hughes, who taught us agriculture, rose from the grave I am sure he would be surprised at the progress that has been achieved. I will not forget to say what someone said in this House thirty years ago. (Interjections) The member I am referring to is the Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland. He spoke at Umtata here in my presence. I am sure that when he compares the position as it was then and as it is now he is very pleased. On that day he said a visitor from abroad came to his place of residence after visiting the whole world and when he came to Pondoland he likened it to the Garden of Eden, which meant that he was com-

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paring it to the most fertile country in the world. The fact that tea-growing is being carried on there indicates that it is fertile. We are thankful to those who are doing these things so that we can see them while we are still alive. I want to speak at length about agriculture. I am appreciative of the fact that a morgen can yield forty bags, and that is all due

to the work of the present Minister. There is nothing greater to an African than a beast and the hon. Minister has introduced artificial insemination for our cattle. I come back now to the rehabilitation scheme. The hon. Mr. Nogcantsi says that I have not rehabilitated my area. I want to tell him that I have never gone to anyone in the Emigrant Tembuland area to tell the people not to rehabilitate their land. When they go there they make a lot of noise and talk about things that have never been discussed in this House. (Interjections) One member who went there was driven away. (Interj ections)

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please. Give a chance to the interpreter.

MR. SIHELE: I wish the hon. listen to me. People are refusing where they had been ordered long Everything goes according to vote. because you have been voted for. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Sit down.

Leader would to move from ago to move. You are here

Why are you here?

MR. SIHELE: You think one person can say they must not move when a hundred people say they want to move. I want to tell you ....(Interjections) THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Your time is up hon. member.

MR. SIHELE : Thank you , Mr. Chairman. CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I stand up to second the amendment moved by the hon. Mr. Jafta. I have read thoroughly what is in the policy speech of the hon . the Minister of Agriculture and I can only say this paper is empty. As usual he has put into his speech a number of useless expressions which are of no help whatsoever. First of all let me refer to the pack of hunting dogs which he mentioned. I do not think the hon. Minister is aware of the extent of the losses suffered by the people of the Transkei as a result of their sheep being destroyed by jackals. When I referred to this last year he regarded it as being something worthless . Indeed even the jackals are aware now that the people of the Transkei have not even got guns or other weapons with which to destroy them. That even the wild jackals are aware that you can do nothing to them is a sad state of affairs. These packs of hunting dogs are quite useless to us. Would the hon. Minister advise the Republican Government to make it possible for all the people who rear sheep to be allowed to possess firearms so that they may protect their own herds against the jackals . (Interjections) I would further advise the hon. Minister to make it possible for stock coming from outside the Transkei to be permitted to enter the Transkei without restriction. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Where will the grazing for such stock be found?

CHIEF MAJEKE : I will read from the Daily Dispatch a report which appeared a few weeks ago: "Transkei Grazing for South African Farmers Transkei grazing land has been made available to farmers from drought-stricken areas of the Republic, the Chief Minister, Chief Kaiser Matanzima, and the Minister of Agriculture, Mr. Columbus Madikizela, announced in a joint statement yesterday." Then the statement goes on: " It is sufficient to graze

8,000 cattle or 4,000 small stock. " THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Where is the pasture referred to?

CHIEF MAJEKE : In the Umzimkulu district. It says: " Grazing in the Transkei was quite suffi cient and there was no cause for concern. "

have THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Those are 1 Trust farms .

CHIEF MAJEKE : To assist the hon. Minister who evidently has forgotten what he said in this regard, he mentioned the Transkei here. I take it he E told Mr. Botha, the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development, that the restriction against stock it entering the Transkei should be lifted because the m cattle disease has been eradicated. In east Griqua- i land the cattle have died in great numbers since 1 January. I would like to show him that these statements are contradictory. Here is another quotation L from the speech delivered by the Hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development: "Their stock will no longer be attacked by disease and there will be no need to import stock from outside the Transkei ." I mention this because in his policy speech the hon. Minister says there will be a factory in which will require the stock that is reported here in as dying constantly. I want him to stop thinking i of the few beasts that individual people have and th regard these as being sufficient to support a factory. When you remove people in connection with the rehabilitation scheme you usually leave the school buildings where they were and you promise the people that school buildings will be erected by the Goverment at a later stage, and that never happens. MR. A. MFEBE: Mr. Chairman , hon. members and those who are not honourable ...(Laughter) THE

that.

DEPUTY

CHAIRMAN :

Please withdraw

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MR. MFEBE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I The stand up to support the policy speech by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture. In the first place I want to say that before anything else it is our duty to thank a person for his work. The Govemment has done good work which is appreciated. The hon. Mr. Jafta spoke about the death of children and mentioned 200 that they die as a result of malnutrition. Those who complain and criticize will never disappear. They are still amongst us today. The children who are alleged to be dying are a decrease in the numbers of the Opposition. (Laughter) I must repeat that when some of those children die it is another way of decreasing people in the Opposition. My hon. friend said that since the Minister of Agriculture took over, noxious weeds have increased to a great extent and nowhe is suggesting that people should be arrested for having noxious weeds in their lands. When we get home we will be arrested because there are a lot of noxious weeds. I want to give this advice today to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture , that whenever he sees anything here he should try and take the ra members of the House round the Transkei to show them exactly what is being done. I am sure if you t can do that the people will see the progress that is taking place and the improvement that is going on. My wish is that the members of theOpposition should adopt the attitude of their leader. He is a highly ; educated person and is not one who has just been taught. There is a difference between a highly educa

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ted person and a person who has just been to school. Some of the people in this House are mere children. What I wanted to say exactly is that we should learn to criticize constructively rather than criticize in toto before we see what has been done. People think it is easy to talk and therefore they talk without knowing what they are saying. Mr. Chairman, I say this Vote should not be reduced even by half a cent. You have done a good deal of work and now we are trying to introduce a co-operative · something we have never had. People who do not know anything about these co-operatives should see me in my office. (Laughter) I say this vote should not be reduced.

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MR. J.B. NKOSIYANE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, food is the most important thing. It is said: "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread." People want food: they want clothing; they want a I place of residence. You tell us about rehabilitation and you tell us about tea. What will the people eat? At Gwadu in the Willowvale district there are people I who are under arrest because the fences have been El cut · the fences which were put up for rehabilitation, t although the people told you they did not want the rehabilitation scheme. They wrote to you expressing their difficulties. The people did not want the reha bilitation scheme. Only the headmen wanted it and on that account the people have been put into prison. Indeed it was the decision of this House that nobody would be compelled to accept the rehabilitation scheme, but today people are forced to accept it because what you are doing is to enforce the policy of the Republican Government. Just here at Qweqwe that is happening. To make this clear there is cons21 tant expression to the effect that in the Dalindyebo region the people do not want rehabilitation and they 3 do not want fences to be erected. If this rehabilitation scheme is useful it should start at Qamata region. A good thing is usually placed before the people E and then they are asked to accept it. At Qamata very many people have not been able to raise their 1 crops. Only the Chief Minister is able to benefit because of the irrigation scheme. It is just a demonstration to attract the people in other areas. Further, it has been said that money has been advanced to help the people who suffer from the drought conditions at Qamata. Does the rehabilitation scheme help to stop drought and bring in grain? We want the people to have enough to eat and enough to wear. Here is another instance in the case of the Nqamakwe area. In order to attract the people to accept this scheme you use fertilisers, but you make the people pay for it in other ways. You must help all the people who are starving. Give the people the benefit of the use of tractors in all areas, not only in the rehabilitated areas. That is the policy of your Agricultural Department. You say you only give tractors to people who have accepted rehabilitation. You Eshould have irrigation schemes everywhere, not only in areas which have been rehabilitated. Windmills should be erected everywhere, not only in Qamata area. At Gqogqora in the Tsolo district you removed the people and started plantation. Is it your policy to preserve trees rather than people? This is what is appertaining in the Transvaal where people are removed so that the land can be improved, and then they are not allowed to go back. Will you tell me what is the aim of your rehabilitation scheme? What profit and advantages do they bring to the people? Will you be able to give us statistics as to how many bags of mealies, beans and kaffircom have been harvested up to the present time? You have undertaken schemes to reduce stock but you say you want a meat industry. Where will

you get the meat from? I would like you to explain further in connection with the T.B. you say is found in stock. You bring rehabilitation and all sorts of improvement schemes but the people suffer as a result of these schemes. Please make it plain to your Government that the people of the Transkei are suffering from famine. The rehabilitation scheme that you are referring to is a scheme brought here whereas we know our way of by the European, living in the Transkei. Our reason for moving the amendment is that we are making an effort that the emoluments of your drivers under this Vote should be made available to the people. What sort of Minister is this who designates himself Minister of Agriculture and leaves the House while we are talking to him? Why does he not attend to what the people want? THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Time. MR. L.A. LUWACA: Mr. Chairman, I second the amendment.

The debate was adjourned . AFTERNOON SESSION. The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall ask the Secretary to make a few announcements. THE SECRETARY : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, two members of the Assembly are ill and will not be able to attend the Assembly. Chief Makosonke Sigcau will be away for five days and Chief Morris Msingapantsi will also be away for four days .

The debate on Vote 5, Department of Agriculture, was resumed. CHIEF M. TANTSI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to oppose the proposed reduction in the vote of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture . We have already seen his good work . Owing to his good work I can now liken myself to a farmer. I challenge anybody who says he is a better farmer than myself, because that is not so as a result of the work of the Minister of Agriculture . When he started his speech my eyes were open to the fact that agriculture is a reasonable matter. (Interjections) In so far as reclamation measures are concerned I want to refute any statement to the effect that these measures are destroying our cattle . I have found the Opposition members to be senseless people. We can see from the example of the hon. Paramount Chief Victor Poto a clever man - that he has no complaint and he has accepted rehabilitation. Even the hon . Mr. Guzana is surprised at the results. You must train yourselves to urge people to interest themselves in agriculture and I will lay a charge against anybody who says there should be no rehabilitation measures . As a chief I am urging fencing because I have noticed that things go wrong when there is no fencing of land. In my location there are four people who will not be able to reap any crops as a result of the absence of fencing. People are in the habit of leaving their cattle grazing by themselves and allowing such cattle to graze on the mealie lands, and then people start fighting as a result of this. After the fighting people go by night and cut down the crops. This would never happen if the land were fenced in. The hon. Mr. Nogcantsi does not want to listen when we

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MR. L.A. LUWACA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , it is really very disgusting when you hear such tripe as was spoken by the last speaker. All these people, just because they have nothing to say, talk about the rehabilitation scheme . To start with , the hon . member is not even a chief but a headman acting for Paramount Chief Botha's son, so I will forget him. I will also mention the representative of the Paramount Chief of Emigrant Tembuland , Mr. Sihele , who was really howling about the rehabilitation scheme, but he was hitting people to make them accept the scheme. To come to the debate , Mr. Chairman , this Vote 5 has now been augmented by R314,500 and I am going to request the hon. the Minister of Agriculture to request the hon. the Minister of Agriculture not to allow the Minister of Finance to take all this money from the reserve fund when he has got all this in his Department. I was very happy when the hon . the Minister of Agriculture mentioned in passing that there are prospects that houses for workers are going to be built next to the forests, and really that would now be a step towards something because I will ask the Assembly now to envisage a situation where a man or a woman has to walk ten to fifteen miles to get to the forest to work . He/she has prepared his/her food early in the morning and as a result he/she eats it at dinnertime whole let alone the fact that by the time he/she gets to the forest he/she is tired after walking fifteen miles and then having to walk the same distance to get back. Nobody would expect people like that to work efficiently and eat efficiently and have decent health because winter is starting now and it is going to be very cold. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Did you read the policy speech? MR. LUWACA: Yes, that is what I am coming to. I will now come to the de-boning factory which is like an old story . I think it will only happen over my dead body · that is , provided I do not die before my time. With this increase I think the hon. Minister will come to our assistance in regard to the proposal we made two years ago when he told us the Vote had not enough funds to make longer intervals between dipping days . I think now that he has got R314,500 he will be able to save enough from his de-boning factory . I wish also to mention the subject of water. I think our greatest trouble is that the Department cannot afford to employ proper geologists ' to see where to find water. You know geologists will go underground. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : They don't have to go underground. MR . LUWACA: I am now thinking of a case in one of the locations in Libode area where the

magistrate said there was no qualified geologist and the people wanted to move because there was no water. I am handling that case now. You can come and see it in my office . (Laughter) Now if the Govemment will see that residential areas are in places where there is plenty of water, even the people who do not want to accept the rehabilitation scheme will fall for it. As I think the hon . Minister will remember (if he has a retentive memory ) I asked him not to dance about the Qamata irrigation scheme, which they did not even start, but to have other small irrigation schemes elsewhere . Secondly, I asked him last year already to have sufficient boreholes for water in the urban areas so that if he

R.

The

The

is going to do things like that with his Vote he will be doing something that we admire . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I am rising on a point of order. Before the adjournment the hon. member for Dalindyebo, Mr. J.B. Nkosiyane, stood up and addressed the House. Now I would like to know whether on record he was speaking on his amendment or whether he was supporting the amendment by the hon. member for Emboland, Mr. Jafta. I am worried because there are so many amendments to this Bill and if we go at the rate we are going now, it will take about four days on this Bill alone. In fact I heard Mr. Chairman asking for a seconder. Could you put us in order, Mr. Chairman?

to

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13. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : According to the ecords the hon . member stood up and spoke generaly, but towards the end of his address he reached his amendment when he mentioned something about motor transport .

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: What I would like to know is whether he moved his amendment, let alone talking to it, because even if he was: speaking to the amendment of the hon. member for ia Emboland he is still allowed a lot of latitude in 366 speaking about motor transport.

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discuss matters in the location and I am going to expel him. (Laughter) I am merely retaining him because he is my nephew. That is why he has run away to Mount Frere and has abandoned his kraal. I can see no reason why the hon. Minister should not be given his full salary . I do not see what you are driving at. You are just talking for the sake of talking. You have sensible people in your party so why don't you copy their example? You should copy the example of your father, the Paramount Chief of Western Pondoland . Are you not ashamed to say you do not accept rehabilitation? Do you think he was a fool when he said he was going to have his land fenced in? You are talking nonsense

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : It was clear that he was moving his amendment and was seconded by the hon. Mr. Luwaca. Let us pass on.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: So the ruling is that he moved his amendment and was seconded? MR. B.S. RAJUILI : You must sit down. You are out of order. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Fortunately I still have the brains I had when I was at school. Mr. Chairman, we have to know whether we are in order in this House . People like this will want to go on even if they are not in order. I was on a point of order and I want a ruling and we must know that the member moved his amendment and was seconded.

བྱ THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Who is the next speaker? It will be on the Govemment side.

MR. LUWACA: Mr. Chairman, I want to know because I thought you were going to tell us whether this member moved or not. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Yes, he did and you seconded it. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that this is a weekend , I am certain that the hon. members would like to get to their homes

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and I move that the House adjoums until Monday moming.

whether the many fabricated lies that come from that side come from starving people.

MR. RAJUILI: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to second the motion.

MR. B.S. RAJUILI : You have many starving chiefs on that side . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: You can see from their appearance on this side that they are well fed. One has heard a lot about the size of the

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The debate was adjoumed. The Assembly adjoumed until 11 a.m. on Monday, 16th May, 1966. MONDAY, 16TH MAY, 1966. The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.

Prayers were read. ANNOUNCEMENT.

21 THE CHAIRMAN : Hon. paramount chiefs and hon. members , I shall not call the roll but I shall appeal to the Whips to see that the members are in their places at the right time. There are many members absent this morning. Before you move the adoption of the minutes , kindly note that motions Nos. 4, 5 , 6, 7 , 9 and 10 have been inadvertently omitted from today's order' paper. The omission will be rectified in today's minutes.

The minutes of Friday, 13th May, were taken as read and confirmed . TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION. BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon . members, I move that the House now converts itself into a committee of supply on the Appropriation Bill, 1966. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I second . Agreed to. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I note that I have, in common with other members of the House , a plan of the seating in the House here , Sir, and that the seats have been numbered. We very much welcome this and to complete the picture one would expect that the seats themselves would also carry numbers. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman , I wish to support the hon . the Leader of the Opposition but would suggest that the seats have the names instead of the numbers , just as it is in Cape Town . House in Committee . The debate on Vote 5, Department of Agriculture , was resumed. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I think if there is one Vote that ought to have a unanimous backing it is this Vote , for agriculture is not only a primary industry but it is the backbone of the economy of any people. One is however very glad to see that African public opinion is beginning to follow the modern methods of agriculture . The huge meeting that was held at Tsolo recently was a testimony to that . Once people starve then they become liars . I sometimes wonder

arable lands belonging to the African people. That may be true but what is even more important is to make, where one blade used to grow, two blades to grow. Maurice Evans in one of his writings tells us a very interesting story . It is the story of a white farmer whose farm was a model farm . People used to come from far and near to see this farm and he used to direct them to his African foreman and he in turn would tell them that they used this, that and the other for each crop. Then the visitors would come to a certain plot which was badly tilled and they would ask the foreman about it. He used to say: Well, this is our native way of ploughing - this is my own plot and I am following our custom in that respect. We want to get away from that and one is sometimes very much disappointed to find that many members of the Opposition , instead of preaching progress to the people , play on their ignorance . In the Emigrant Tembuland area castor beans grow very well and we are looking forward one day to a factory being established there where we might produce castor-oil which I hope will do many of you a great deal of good. (Laughter) MR . GUZANA: What is the matter with you this morning? Have you taken some? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : No , Also , cotton grows very well there. I think our so -called traders here should also interest themselves in produce from different areas instead of fighting a battle for the White traders . We produce a great deal of kaffircorn in Emigrant Tembuland and I wonder why the traders from the Qaukeni and Western Pondoland areas do not order kaffircorn from us and sell it, because they do not produce much kaffircom down this way. Then the traders in the northern areas might buy bananas and things like that which grow in this area. That is the sort of thing we are interested in. I want to put a suggestion also to my great friend, the hon . Mr. Sinaba from Maluti , and his future lieutenant, also from Maluti , Mr. B.S. Rajuili. MR. RAJUILI: I think there is really something wrong with him . He should have said "the future Minister of Education ". (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I think the people would be bullied by you if ever you were to be. There seems to be a great deal of confusion about the relations between the elected members and the electorate . Some think that whatever is given to them by the electorate must be carried out holusbolus. My own interpretation of an elected member is that the people elect him because they have confidence in him and they therefore elect him as their leader. It is not for you to walk behind them , but you must walk in front of them. (Interjections) Keep quiet, please , you prospective prisoner. I like the sentiment expressed by Edmund Burke , that great orator who represented the constituency of Bristol in England , when he said: " I shall respect your views as my electorate , but I am not a water pipe channel . Where I differ with you , then allow me to carry out those views or resign . " I want to pass

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MR. N.C. NOGCANTSI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members of the House, it has been unfortunate that I have to rise to speak after a man who occupies an XG. 4..... THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: It is not " 4" . Think again, stupid. MR . NOGCAN TSI : .... because that number represents a dead man according to "Fafee" . (Laughter) In other words I am speaking after a dead man . He has been delirious over the kaffircorn and trying to preach to the kaffirs in his own way . Now I want to move this amendment , Mr. Chairman and hon . members :

"That Vote 5 be reduced by R700,000 in respect of sub-head H, item 5, land reclamation services. " In other words , I want to move that land reclamation services should be disposed of. All along there have been many endeavours that the land that has been eroded should be reclaimed . Because of the ignorance of those who have been trying to make these experiments on such services , the people have been opposing that measure very severely. In other words , in other countries where reclamation services have been done that has been welcomed a lot by the people, but here in the Transkei we know the purpose behind it, that it is due to land hunger or land shortage . Undeniably there are dongas which should be fenced in but such dongas are never paid attention to. What worries people particularly is that they are required to settle together in one spot in a location without any provision for their labour so that if there were to be an industry that would be welcomed a lot. Now they are like flies put together in one camp and such flies are taken anywhere. All along the unrehabilitated areas have been looking forward to the rehabilitated areas in order to find out what progress has been achieved in the rehabilitated areas. Invariably you will find that most of the complaints or grievances come from those already rehabilitated areas. You will find that the already rehabilitated areas will complain about shortage of water · in fact, scarcity of water and scarcity of many other amenities . But whenever the Minister (particularly the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry) pays a visit to them he will always canvass for the next general election . He will further show his ignorance about the climatic conditions because he thinks that tea will be grown all over the Transkei . He will try to curry favour with the inhabitants of those places by promising that he will give them all the agricultural benefits such as stud bulls and quality seeds. He does not promise anything to those areas that refuse to be rehabilitated in spite of the fact that all the inhabitants are paying tax. In other words, it means he is indirectly applying sanctions against those who are refusing to have their areas rehabilitated . The chiefs themselves, particularly in those rehabilitated areas , are affected adversely by the state of affairs obtaining in those areas. They always

complain that their powers are usurped by rangers who are appointed by magistrates, and the allotment a of land is entirely in the hands of the agricultural officers in those areas . You will find that the chief there is only a servant of the agricultural demonstrator who is in that particular area. Again you will find that in those camps which are meant to be meadow camps there are no trees to shelter the beasts , so the cattle or any other beasts are always exposed to all the inclemencies of the weather. Further, you will find that the sites are diminished a lot and there is no chance for the primitive economy that is enjoyed by the blanketed people. So everybody who is in a rehabilitated area you will find is always dissatisfied with what is obtaining in that area. There has been a lot of quoting the Lubisi dam that is at 150 Qamata. To many of us that is a story that is incredible because we have never seen that and there has never been a dam in our areas . (Laughter) THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: You will be in gaol when I take the others to see it. MR. NOGCANTSI : Instead, whenever you speak of that they just suggest that you go to gaol as they do now. Further, goats are not allowed to graze 3 in the rehabilitated areas. 23 THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members of the House, God made himself an opposition in the form of Satan, (Laughter) and after God had created this opposition Satan opposed everything that God created. Unfortunately we have also created our own Opposition and the Opposition is following in the steps of Satan and is opposing every single good thing. The hon. member who has just sat down should really feel ashamed of what he has been saying. If one is opposed to anything one should not try and infect other people with that spirit. The amendment that the hon. member moved is not only that there should be no reclamation in his location , but that the money should be taken away so that there should never be any reclamation work carried out anywhere. The Vote in respect of reclamation works here is R700,000 , which the hon. member says should be done away with . In the Official Gazette of the 13th May, 1966 , on page 7 there is a request emanating from the Mount Frere district where an hon. chief on the other side (he comes from Location No. 22) has requested that they should be rehabilitated . You say that this T money should be taken away and these people will go to gaol just as you are. How are these people who are eager for these rehabilitation measures to carry out that work? I wonder whether some of my 4 hon . friends across the floor were consulted about this amendment. My hon. Paramount Chief here has all his area rehabilitated, and the hon. member across the floor has his own location rehabilitated, in common with others. My hon . friends across there, as well as those from Fingoland know that all of Fingoland has been · rehabilitated . All of them, including the hon . Chief D.D.P. Ndamase and quite a number of locations in the Port St. John's district, have requested to be rehabilitated. The Port St. John's residents are asking now when rehabilitation will come. One location in the Dalindy ebo region told us to get a move on with rehabilitation whilst one of the hon . members was still in gaol. (Laughter) I am surprised, if these hon. members were consulted, why they should support this amendment to do away with this Vote , but the reason is that the only thing they can say in the locations because they have no policy . When they get to the electorate and talk of multi- racialism the people ask them

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that advice on to my friend from Maluti. You represent the views of the people of Maluti , so don't walk behind them. If you think this line is progressive then follow it. I want to make this appeal, particularly on this Vote of Agriculture. We live in a great country fertile in its soil texture and, given good rains, should be able to support the people of this country and in the near future we should even be able to export some of our own produce. Thank you , Mr. Chairman.

what that is. People are beginning to think too of Russia and they are afraid of Russia. Please do your best to know what your work is . The idea of an Opposition is for the Opposition to give constructive criticism , not destructive criticism . Those members who come from rehabilitated locations must not mislead or deceive others while enjoying the benefits of this thing. Mr. Chairman , I have only one piece of advice and that is that the Opposition should try something else. When we say there will soon be no Opposition , we are not going to introduce any legislation for that , but the Opposition is going to destroy itself. They do not know what they are up to. We have already said they are a team of crabs and platannas and that is why the Opposition is what it is. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : We now want a seconder to the hon. Mr. Nogcantsi . MR. C.S. MDA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I regret very much that the hon. the Minister of Justice has thought it fit to bring down the Almighty to the level of the Devil in this House, I shall not go into the pros and cons of this rehabilitation scheme and whether it should be accepted or not. That is a matter for the people themselves to decide. May I , however, make a few remarks in connection with this rehabilitation scheme. If I am right (and

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I maintain I am) the hon. the Minister of Agriculture, when referring to the people of the Transkei as famers, understands it to mean I hope that a farmer must have a few morgen of ground · say two and a half morgen at least. That is what we have as ground available for a farmer in the Transkei . We would rather the hon . Minister explicitly explained this matter to us , as to what provision is made for the young men who will want allotments one day when areas are being allotted under this rehabilitation scheme. He has said that all the people will not be allowed to be farmers but he does not stipulate what the rest of the people will do for a living. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : They must get employment in the towns.

MR. MDA: The hon . the Minister of Education says they must go to the towns , but our knowledge of industrial revolution over the past hundred years has shown us what happens when there is a constant flow of people into the towns to seek employment, leaving the agricultural areas behind . That still holds today in the Republic. The European farmers leave their farms and they transfer to the towns because agriculture depends on things that cannot be controlled by man. The people of whom I am speaking now · the European farmers · have several hundred morgen for their agricultural activities, but though they possess so much land they do not profit by agriculture because that must depend on some other income-eaming activities. Will you please understand that you must not make this rehabilitation the end of our people's life because even if you work industriously the morgen of land given to you will only produce 21 bags. I will not refer to the 40 bags which it is alleged can be harvested. That is an exception and that means that you can only reap 52 bags from your two and a half morgen. Today that is an impossible thing. Now before this rehabilitation scheme when they have two or three plots to plough, a family of five would consume, say, 30 to 40 bags per annum. That would mean therefore that out of the possible 52 bags harvested they would only have 12 or 13 bags left over. That is now what

an experienced farmer would have left with which to provide for his children. He must educate and clothe his children and put something aside for a rainy day, and he must provide all the necessities of life . Our whole life must therefore rest on this rehabilitation scheme. Mr. Chairman , this is very regrettable in that slaves never realise what is to their disadvantages at any time . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Are you seconding the amendment by the hon . Mr. Nogcantsi?

MR. MDA: I am debating what has been put before us. CHIEF K. MGUDLWA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I rise to support the Vote placed before the House by the hon. the Minister of Agriculture , and I am opposing the amendment by the hon . Mr. Nogcantsi . It is amazing that the hon . member should say anything in connection with agriculture for only trained people and people who know about that subject ought to speak about it. We should not be told about agriculture by people from the urban areas. First, when a person wants to profit by agricultural activities he should enclose the area which he intends to use . That is the reason why people who have not accepted rehabilitation will not profit as they expect to. Those who have accepted rehabilitation are getting better crops . (Interjections) Let the Opposition members not exert themselves unprofitably by opposing this scheme because the people want rehabilitation because they have realised what profits accrue from rehabilitated areas. It has been stated that those who have not accepted the scheme will not be forced into it. Let those who accept it continue with it and harvest the good retums resulting from this scheme. We are certainly gratified to see the efforts put forth by the Department of Agriculture in this respect, for we must irrigate the land in order to have good harvests , particularly in these days when drought is becoming quite common . We would urge the Department of Agriculture to help more and more in the supply of fertilizers for the use of fertilizers is very helpful , particularly during this drought- stricken time . This is evidenced particularly by the plots that are used to show the people how to profit from their land. We are particularly grateful because the Department of Agriculture is demonstrating without doubt that there are other agricultural products which can be raised in the Transkei , such as phormium tenax , sugar and tea. That proves to us that the future of the Transkei is a glorious one . We are keen that industrial undertakings should be started in the Transkei and we are happy to note that such indus· for example , the meat tries have already begun factory. We are grateful to the Department of Agriculture and we wish that the road they have led us on will lead to success. CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , first of all may I ask the hon . Minister to attend when a member addressed the House , particularly in regard to what I am going to say . All the policy speeches that have been given to the House, barring that of the hon . the Minister of the Interior, do not satisfy this side of the House. I am very grateful for the report of the Department of Agriculture regarding the development of forestry in the Transkei . I wish to make this request through the hon . Ministers, that all the Secretaries of the Departments should produce annual reports of their different departments and they should do so fully.

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"That Vote 5 be reduced by R10,000 in respect of sub-head H, item 7."

to

I make this reduction in particular with regard woodlots which would otherwise be used for

habitation by the people. The Almighty has created areas which are suitable for forestry but instead of using those areas you use land which is suitable for habitation . The amount voted for these woodlots ought to be under sub-head L, which particularly refers to forestry . We note that the income from forestry is very much lower than the expenditure on that item and when you look into this report you will find that the incom from forestry amounts to only quarter of the expenditure on this Vote, but there are other sections which would require much expenditure such as sub-vote G. Extension and Trading. There are not even any items indicated under this sub-vote we are talking about. Although it is not stipulated here I take it that farmers' days also have to be accounted for under this Vote, where agricultural demonstrations are given to the people . Under this sub-vote there may be a publication which is sent out instructing the people. These bulletins ought to be sent free to farmers as is the case in other parts of the world , but this one the farmers have to pay for. I hope under this item , Extension and Trading, you also include schools . There is no indication here to show that you wish agricultural education to expand and that those who have had agricultural education should be independent in their activities . There should also be bursaries made available to train children in agriculture . At the Tsolo School of Agriculture there are ten- acre plots where students are taught to make a living out of a plot that size. There is grazing for stock.... THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : No , that is wrong. CHIEF NDAMASE: You take no trouble whatsoever to advance people enough money to enclose their plots so as to be able to do what you demonstrate with your ten-acre plots . Possibly it is because you are aware that the arable plots given to the people are far too small to allow them to make a living. There is however an item that does not appear here for subsidies to the people for seeds. There is not even a board to help advise the people. There are several advisory boards in the Republic.

MR. 0.0 . MPONDO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I second the amendment moved by the hon. Chief Ndamase. CHIEF B. HOLOMISA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am not going to be lengthy . I wish to refer however to certain remarks which were made by Opposition members last week. One hon . member referred to jackals, and I do not know how the jackals come into the budget speech but I would like to know whether the hon. Chief Majeke thinks that the hon . Minister can go and look for jackals in his car. I do not see how a Minister can neglect his work and go and look for jackals . The Government has seen fit to appoint certain people to look for jackals, but the Minister cannot go out and look for them. (Laughter) Another hon . member posed a question as to when people would have maize when other matters are being attended to . My reply to that would be another question : Has anybody who has no land the right to claim that he knows that people are starving? It is surprising to hear a statement that the people are starving when the Goverment

has made provision for them . The hon. member says that the people are being bluffed in the Nqamakwe district. I do not know whether he has been to that district but I support the hon . Mr. Mfebe when he says that people should be taken on a tour so that they can see the progress that has been made in agriculture. I suggest that in order to be able to see progress you must tour the country and see all the good things that are happening. It is only those people who tour who can see what progress is being made . I am surprised that some of the members across the floor have never even been to Lambasi. I have spent a lot of time there and I have been to Paramount Chief Botha's place to see the development there. (Interjections) THE

DEPUTY

CHAIRMAN :

Order,

please.

CHIEF HOLOMISA: You must stop criticizing something you have not seen . Much has been done but you people are just opposing everything. I think the time has arrived when we must praise what is good. I therefore say we must support the Vote we are discussing today because the hon. the Minister of Agriculture has done his work. I will not mention anything else.

MR. O.O. MPONDO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members of the Assembly , I will make a brief reference to what the hon . the Minister of Justice has said with regard to the Opposition being constructive in their criticism . I agree with him in that respect. That is what we are trying all the time to do , but one wonders what we are doing when we are speaking to a Minister who is so thickheaded as this one. (Laughter) There is something that is known by everybody in South Africa. It is an epidemic which has thoroughly destroyed the Bantu people . I refer to tuberculosis . It is surprising that throughout his policy speech he has made no reference whatsoever to the production of milk in this country. It would be very encouraging to know what efforts are being made to encourage the farmers in the production of milk . We hope he will take note of that in the future. On page 2 of his policy speech the hon. the Minister of Agriculture says: "At every possible opportunity the Department is asked by the people, or on behalf of the people, that more should be done for the people or more should be given to the people." If the hon . Minister concemed were sincere I would support him very much . When the rehabilitation scheme is planned and put before the people, and the people have accepted it, it often follows that when people have complained about this or that, it is never attended to . Much has been said about the acceptance of rehabilitation in the Nqamakwe area and the people at Bongitole in that area have constantly made appeals and requests up and up, until they have come as far as this Assembly. They have constantly requested that they should not be moved from the area they are inhabiting to an area four miles away which will necessitate their travelling four miles backwards and forwards to their arable plots. The second request has been that the people of Mbangeni location are very close to their arable plots and they may be taking their produce in their absence. It is also stated that the area is infested with monkeys and baboons . As they are now resident four miles away it follows that they will not have anything left on their plots. as a result of the damage by the baboons . It is very clear that this request ought to be attended to by your Department. This is what I would like you to take note of. You have lorries for carting manure from the kraals to the

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I now wish to move my amendment :

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the k ands in this particular area. Indeed this is a very great help to the people but a circular has come from your Department to the people of Butterworth to say they must not be allowed to hire these trucks . This forces the people therefore to go and hire trucks which may cost them R18 a day. There is a man who hired a lorry for three days and it cost him R60 . The nature of the fencing of these areas causes complaints among the people. You will find that immediately after the fencing has been completed, sheep and goats are able to creep under the fences. I am Dinot referring to old fences that need repairing. CHIEF W. LUDIDI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in supporting the Vote of the Minister of Agriculture I have noticed, among the indications of progress , something new in regard to forestry . In the Maluti region there are new plantations in the Matatiele district, with young trees growing, and zone of those plantations is in the area of Chief Lupindo. Those are indications of progress . As far as agriculture is concerned we already have contours , although the work of building those contours is not complete. I point that out as another mark of progress . I have heard members speaking recently and pointing out wrong things. It is true that some of the members of the Opposition are criticizing even those things which are right. With regard to rehabilitation we have rehabilitated Our area and it is fenced in . The ■ rehabilitation there is only in its first year but there are already signs that the grass is going to grow well. As far as our mealie lands are concemed we are still adopting old methods of agriculture. We are not well treated in spring-time owing to the lack of rain. We should avail ourselves of the rains that come in spring. One member said that rehabilitation has not advanced other people. We used to take our stock away from the mealie lands after the mealie season rather late. What I am saying is the truth . As I stand up here my cattle are in good condition and I want to say I have stock. The hon . Mr. Sinaba will bear me out. I will not be lenghty but in the main I only stood up to support the Vote owing to certain advantages. A few days ago the hon . Mr. Sinaba spoke about mealie lands and he remarked that a number of people in Ludidi's location - people under me · do not get arable allotments. I have been keeping quiet but all the same what he should have said was that only a few people have not got their arable allotments , which is the truth . Another thing is that I have never seen Mr. Sinaba on the mealie lands , and I do not know where he gets all his information from. He is one of my children and I have never known a child to come and attack his own parent.

CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, in his policy speech the hon . the Minister of Agriculture mentions tea-growing. He puts it forward as something which they want to put into effect or as something which they are actually engaged in. He also says they are making efforts to grow sugar although he does not seem to think their efforts will be successful. That is strange because sugar is successfully grown in Natal . At Richmond and in the Highflats area it is also successful. I have not heard of any area which is not successful in Natal. It seems to me that you should put sugar plantations into operation because they have already been successful near here , instead of trying new ventures. The hon . Minister talks a great deal about projected schemes, but the schemes that have already taken root, such as the wool industry, are pushed into the background . The wool

industry has profited because of the subsidy. Some of the Europeans farmers from whom land is now being acquired were dairy farmers. They had silos and other improvements which they were undertaking. No effort is being made by the Department to encourage Bantu farmers to come and buy these farms and continue what was already being done on those farms. The silos and cowsheds there will now be destroyed, because there is nothing in your report to say you are trying to find people to carry on the work that was being done . People are starving and they are getting their milk from areas such as Kokstad and you are evidently not aware of this situation . The hon . Minister spoke very well about certain areas which have undertaken the rehabilitation scheme. Because he had projects in those areas I think he forgot the areas which have not accepted rehabilitation . (Interjections ) We do not oppose rehabilitation . All we said was that you must get the consent of the people and if you do not get it you must not carry on with it. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: You are persuading the people not to accept it. CHIEF NDAMASE: We are worried because there are no water furrows in the areas which you have fenced in. I do not know whether the hon . Minister has ever gone past those areas where the cattle have plenty of water. Cattle require water to be in good condition . I know also that in some areas you have refused irrigation schemes . There is an area in the Mount Fletcher district which could all be put under irrigation . In Gqogqora also you could build a big dam which would irrigate the whole area. You are reducing this Vote without being aware that there are certain parts which would benefit a great deal from irrigation . This is a time of drought and we would like the Transkei to be self- supporting and not to have to import produce from outside these boundaries .

CHIEF F.S. LUPINDO : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to support Vote No. 5. We have been listening time and again to people who travel at night . They have a little tune which they sing wher they get to the villages. That means that whilst we are making progress they are marching backward. Rehabilitation is a very good thing. In my area the cattle are in good condition with good grass and a plentiful water supply. If you would only make a request for rehabilitation you would be surprised. I have sufficient waterholes for my area. Rehabilitation has been a great boon . If you visit the schools in our area you will find that the roll is rising steadily. There are also agricultural demonstrators to show the people how to run their agricultural projects. I have one in my area. They teach us about sheep shearing and how to plough our lands. It is a strange thing that people should ask for a large portion of land when they would not be able to use it properly, for some are lazy and you will find a man sitting by the cattle kraal or at a beer drink and in the lands you will find small boys looking after the cattle . (Interjections)

THE

DEPUTY

CHAIRMAN :

Order,

please.

CHIEF LUPINDO : Some of the Opposition members have no land . They haven't even a pig or any poultry, especially those who walk in the streets of Mount Frere . Even where there are dongas they stop erosion by growing grass .

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THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I shall give a chance to one speaker on the Opposition side when we come back after lunch and the Minister will then reply. I shall adhere to that decision .

The debate was adjourned. AFTERNOON SESSION . The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. The debate on Vote 5, Department of Agriculture, was resumed . CHIEF H. ZULU : Mr. Chairman and hon . members, we want to make it clear to the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry that last year he told us he was going to go out into the country and we are now surprised that this is second year that he has not gone out to see the position as it exists in the rural areas. Much has been said about Fingoland having progressed because it has accepted rehabilitation . The hon. Minister will be surprised to hear that although locations in the Nqamakwe district have accepted rehabilitation , the fencing is not yet complete . Plantations have been established in Fingoland, and there are many of them, but they are bare. Where the country is suitable for the settlement of people there are forests planted. In terms of Proclamation 116 of 1949 people have been collected into one place. There is a complaint in these rehabilitated areas as to where the people's sons will get sites. There are no more sites available except where the plantations have been established. Mr. Chairman , I want to tell the hon . Minister that when he says the people are not being moved any more, it is not true . He says there will be no limitation of stock again but it will still happen because of the meat factory that is being established in Umtata. I want to draw the attention of the hon. Minister to the fact that Tsomo is not rehabilitated and there will be no plantations there. (Interjections) Mr. Chairman, please tell these people to keep quiet. We wish that the hon. Minister should go out or send his men to go and see what is happening in regard to rehabilitation outside. (Interjec tions) What we want again from the hon. the Minister ofAgriculture is that those people who have accepted rehabilitation may do so, but for those people who have not accepted it it should not be forced upon them because there have been deaths as a result of this and people have been put into prison . We ask the hon . Minister to leave this alone and see what will be helpful to the people. (Interjections) I will ask him to listen . Another thing we ask the hon . the Minister of Agriculture to take into consideration is that those locations which have accepted rehabilitation should control their areas themselves, not the Whites who do not know anything, because the Whites whom you have put in control of us do not know anything about agriculture and how many bags we can reap. I wish this money to be taken away from the Department of Forestry and the fenc-1 ing of rehabilitated areas to be completed. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall now call upon the hon Minister to reply. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I am very pleased to reply to this very interesting debate, although I am really said because I missed the constructive remarks of the hon. the Leader of the Opposition . Evidently he did not think it was worth his while to debate because

the policy statement was so clear to the wise , but stig too deep for stupid fools. (Laughter) I will not waste time, Mr. Chairman , on replying to all this trash pho which has been put forth by other members, so my it reply will not be at all proportionate to the number of speakers , particularly those on the other side, the What still looms very brightly in my mind is the STU speech by the late speaker I refer now to the trasio assistant stationmaster at Ndabakazi. I will disabuse 12 VOL

his mind because his first remark was that I promised should to go out into the location and inspect the projects hi there , but is it not impertinent on the part of the te hon . member to say so, when I had really asked of i him to give me dates on which to visit him at the s station at Ndabakazi? (Laughter) And he did not of a even have the courtesy to reply, Mr. Chairman . I ter chanced to meet him at the station at Butterworth later on and asked him why he had not replied to my offer. His feigned reply was that he had a rash on his face. Is a man who says that entitled to blame ase t me for not visiting him, Mr. Chairman? I leave it zif to you and the House. He is honest enough to say bes that rehabilitation is going on very well in the district and he is anxious that the Department should complete its scheme. I think that is the only good point he has, and I promise him I will expedite all the fencing. Now he refers to the unsuitably sited woodlots. I wonder what expert knowledge he has of these lots , because my Department has done its T best and it uses the best soil it can for its planting. I do not suppose he has much of the interests of the people at heart when he says that we should not supply these woodlots - probably because he has easy access to coal at the station there which

he can use for his fires, while the people in the reserves have no access at all to coal. (Laughter) Now, Mr. Chairman , he refers to culling and he agrees that culling has been stopped by my Department, and he goes on stupidly to say that it will be done in the future because culling is going to be encouraged by the meat factory in Umtata. What it nonsense is that ! How can a meat industry be responsible for culling and how does he arrive at that, Mr. Chairman? Certainly we shall need as many cattle as we can persuade the people to supply voluntarily for this factory and he cannot come to the Department and say that that is part of culling. Now I will go on to my hon. friend , Chief D.D.P. and I am sorry to say he also was very evasive to me when I wanted to visit him at his location . In fact I wanted to discuss a very important project that of co-operative societies in which I know he is interested. I understood from him that he was going to attend a Moral Rearmament Conference somewhere and so he was not available to meet me, although he was available to the hon . Mr. Nogcantsi and Mr. Doubt and actually advanced him the sum of R18 (Laughter) Now the hon. Chief D.D.P. reffered to Nyandeni area being neglected by my Department. That was a very unfair allegation because I am working with the hon. Paramount Chief Victor Poto very amicably. I have had a number of visits to the Great Place and was very well received by the hon. Paramount Chief. We discussed problems with him concerning Western Pondoland and among other things was an irrigation scheme for Westem Pondoland . We also discussed the problem of water supplies to his rehabilitated areas and I promised him that I would install new rams to supply the whole of Western Pondoland - D.D.P. or no D.D.P. He also took me to a windmill which had been installed about a year before but which was not working. I am pleased to say that I reported it to the Department and the windmill is now working. Is that

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neglect of Western Pondoland? My Department has also investigated the growing of phormium tenax , tea, sugar, etc. at Nyandeni and his area is actually growing phormium tenax. Is that neglect? I will just leave it to the members to judge whether their accusation was justified or not. Coming to the first speaker, the hon. Mr. Gotgot Jafta, he is usually very constructive but I am not afraid to say that on this occasion I was very disappointed, because what can you say of a man who says now the Department should undertake the destruction of noxious weeds, which was never done by any Govemment prior to the old Bunga. Is that not one of the instances of irresponsibility in coming to the Govemment and saying: Now, destroy our noxious weeds . That, of course , is characteristic of the members on the other side. Well , Mr. Chairman , I think it would be better put this way: That the Opposition requests the Govemment to consider prosecuting the people more rigidly for not destroying noxious weeds, because that is what the Goverment can do. I wonder if you subscribe to that idea? The Government does destroy certain weeds when they go out of control of the community . The jointed cactus , for instance , and the hakkea , but even then it is only when it is under a relief scheme that we ask the people and pay them to destroy those weeds. Yes, he has the right to say that these weeds , particularly the burrweed, is detrimental to the wool of the Transkei , but my Department is fully aware of that and has sent its demonstrators to tell you people how to shear the sheep and keep your wool pure. Wool sheds are being built all over under the co-operative system and unless you destroy those weeds the wool will not be accepted by the cooperative society . Now , the hon. member referred to malnutrition and alsokwashiorkor and tuberculosis . Well, although I appreciate his reference to those diseased he cannot blame my Department for the prevalence of those diseases because that belongs to a different Department altogether, and I would advise members to get hold of this book , the annual of the Transkeian Government, 1966 , which will give you all the information you require about the Govemment of the Transkei . You will not then make blunders which you do in asking questions from one department which should be addressed to another department. Now I think I have said enough to my hon. friend and you will be surprised that although heis so critical I will retain him in my administration of the proposed co-operative societies because if he can only channel his mind in the right direction he would be of great benefit to the Transkei . I hope from now on that he will retrace his steps and be more helpful to the Department and lead his people to the green pastures of separate development. (Laughter) He also spoke of money being lost by the number of bags which we import into the Transkei from the Republic . I do not think he should blame the Department for that for the simple reason that these bags were imported into those districts that are not planned and he should lead the people and convince them that they should plan their areas in order to augment their crops. Then he will be going in the right direction , but those people who refuse to rehabilitate their soil · should they come to the Department and blame us and say we are not growing sufficient crops to feed the people of the Transkei? Now coming to my hon. friend, Chief S.S. Majeke , he said that my speech was hollow and devoid of substance, and that it was only conveyed in flowery language. I wish I was entitled to that attribute of flowery language because I try to be as simple as possible. But the hon.

member speaks about jackals destroying sheep and that we should supply the residents with firearms. This book will also help him to show him that I am not responsible for the provision of firearms and if I were the Minister of Justice at all I would not supply a single firearm to any of you because of your bad history and the way we have been told you wanted to use firearms against some of the chiefs. (Laughter) But you say you are going to hunt jackals with firearms. I have never seen anyone using firearms for that. All the people use dogs and I have got them if you want them, because you have never seen a jackal killing a sheep in front of you so that you can shoot it. (Interjections) Now coming to a very delicate question · the supplying of grazing to the farmers of the Republic - I wish the reporter had turned a deaf ear to his people. He criticizes us for supplying grazing to the farmers of the Republic. He is an astute multi - racialist and then he says we should deny our European counterparts the assistance they needed . If you could have heard one farmer, out of so many coming from the Republic , thank us for the privilege we gave them and saying they would have died like flies , you would not have criticized us . (Interjections ) I had the privilege of meeting them several times during my visit there and they actually mobbed my car and would not allow me to go before they had emptied their thanks to the Department. OPPOSITION MEMBERS: That was not the point. It was the importation of stock into the Transkei . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: And if you had seen those cattle from the time they came to the time they had recovered, you would have been surprised . We are separate development supporters but we are not blind to the facts and we are working hand in hand with the Republic. The Republic never even came to us for help. It was just a gesture from the Government that we should offer them these grazing facilities. (Interjections) There is no lack of grazing for anyone in the Transkei . There is still surplus grazing in Umzimkulu today and if anyone wanted to introduce cattle into Umzimkulu for grazing I would gladly do so. The people of Umzimkulu were very pleased to have these farmers. The regional authority passed a unanimous resolution accepting these cattle and the responsibility for keeping them alive and dipping them and taking care of them in divers other ways and I will just inform the hon. member that this grazing was in our reserved forest area. It did not even belong to the location and so nobody was deprived of a privilege. CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE: We are interested in the importation of stock from outside the Transkei. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Now coming to that, I did not notice it before because I did not think it was significant. Our Department's policy is quite clear. Subject to grazing control and the availability of grazing in any area, we allow the importation of cattle over and above the one in - one out. We still have a certain quota for each district according to its ability to maintain that number, and we are a responsible Government. We will not be butchers. We are not going to import cattle to where there is no grass for grazing . So if you improve your grazing to such an extent that you are entitled to 200 or 300 head of cattle , we shall gladly allow it, but as I say , that depends on you. You cannot eat your cake and still have it. If you refuse rehabilitation and have no grass , we are not going to

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import cattle to die there like flies . We have never received any report from his district that the cattle have died there as he wants us to believe, and in any case they did not die of drought. CHIEF MAJEKE : Of diseases. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: If they died of disease you should have reported it to our Department. Provision was made last year in the Stock Improvement Act and I am sorry to say that you have failed in your duty to inform the people of the provisions of that Act. It is only when I go round and tell them that they hear it for the first time. Now, Mr. Chairman, I notice with pleasure a changed attitude towards rehabilitation , except for a few diehards on the other side , and what is interesting is that I have just analysed them and found not one of them has a single goat or sheep or cow. One day I took a trip because I wanted to see the home of my hon. friend, Mr. J.B. Nkosiyane, and I passed through his district and asked for his home. They told me that his home had been razed to the ground by some magic while he was under exile and today he has not got a single hut. (Interjections) And perhaps he is not even paying quitrent. He also says that people should be helped by means of tractors . Well, that is entirely up to you . If you make representations through the right channel to the Department , if we can we shall help you. But if you adopt this attitude of evasiveness and not coming to the Department to lay your request in the proper manner, how can you expect us to jump to help you? What request can you grant to a man like the hon. Mr. Mpondo who said recently that the Minister was very stupid. Is that what the people sent him to refer to the Minister? I wonder if they would ever say that to any Minister of the Republic? They seem to think we are not Ministers as the other Ministers of State are. (Interjections) THE

DEPUTY

CHAIRMAN:

Order,

please.

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: Why I say this is because you meet a man in the street and he says: I am glad to see you I have a problem . He says they want a dam or something like that and that between the street and my office. Is that a responsible thing to do? What would you expect me to do? Well , if you do not know the procedure , always go to the private secretary who will tell you what to do. Now coming to reclamation and the hon. member for Qaukeni . Mr. Mda, and the other hon. member for Qaukeni who are moving that reclamation should be done away with. (Interjections ) Now how can a responsible man say such a thing? If he does not do it, why does he stop other people doing it? Who does not see the fruits of reclamation? Now you have heard that the land used to belong to the Trust and the State and the Crown and those people were responsible because they saw to it that it was well kept. Now the kind Goverment of the Republic has transferred all land rights to the Government of the Transkei . Are you suggesting that we should do away with reclamation and allow these dongas to grow and grow? Are you really sincere or are you just arguing for argument's sake?. Why I refer to the hon . Mr. Mda was because I thought he was going to mention an incident which occurred last Friday . You will remember that I requested you to adjourn the debate before time so that some of these fools could get home in time. (Laughter) But my chief aim was to go on a tour of inspection. I was going to inspect part of the Mount Frere and

Rode areas and I purposely persuaded my friend, Mr. Mda, to accompany me. I put him in my car, had him sign the indemnity form and he thought I was being very kind to him, but I wanted to show him this plot of land. (Laughter) He saw with his own eyes land that had been reclaimed and land that had not gone away for ever, and no fool could have failed to see the difference between the two pieces of land. The people had not even started reaping on the other side , and their lands were one mass of ridges and we had to strain our eyes on the Rode side to see a blade of grass growing. Nobody said anything · we just stared and I watched my friend. He was very impressed . But now he does not mention that. He allows people to ask us to stop reclamation. I asked the agricultural demonstrators whether this land so far advanced in erosion could be reclaimed. He said if the people are willing we can do it in two or three years . That is in the area of my hon. friend, Mr. Nota. His brother or uncle or something is the headman there . I recommend him to go to the people and tell them that that land can still be reclaimed , because the demonstrator told me. I do not know what they are going to eat because there is nothing growing there. If my friend had time, perhaps he would second my motion. Now, Mr. Chairman , to come to near the end of my reply I said I was not going to reply to all the trash talked over there - the hon. member for Qaukeni, Mr. Nogcantsi , erroneously said the demonstrators usurped the powers of the chiefs . I would like to hear that from the chiefs. What I do know is that he is always at loggerheads with his chief every

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time there is a tribal authority meeting. I do not know whether he wants to usurp the power of the chief. Of all the chiefs here , none of them has ever complained to us that their powers are being taken away. And I am sorry about Chief Zulu but you know more than he does , and he says that more power should be given to the people to control their rehabilitated lands . I wonder if he read our circular which we issued last year, because that is just what the position is. We have done it purposely so that you can take more pride in your land . We will not leave a gate open. In fact, I do not see why you should employ rangers when there are so many of you that you could perhaps take turns. I say that because you say the rangers are employed by the magistrate. I have never known a magistrate to employ rangers. And now about trees. He says in our grazing paddocks the sun is sometimes so hot and there is nowhere for the stock to shelter. There he is right for the first time, but we differ in this respect. He wants the Department to go and plant these trees for them I have seen these trees I think in Butterworth and Nqamakwe where they have trees running across and in the hot hours the stock shelters under those trees . I assure you gentlemen on both sides of the House that if you come for seed or young trees we can give them to you so that you can go and plant them to protect your stock - not our stock. Now mention was made of the small size of the arable lands which we dish out to the people , but how can you blame the Government for that? What we do is to divide the land according to the population of the area, and the land varies from two to five morgen according to the availability of the land and to the fertility of the soil , and in an irrigation scheme like Qamata we only give them one and a half morgen, so that we can give to as many people as possible. It has been proved through experiment that that one and a half morgen of land is sufficient for a family provided it is farmed properly. And what is farming at all? Farming is to make the soil so susceptible

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that it will grow only the best. MR. C.S. MDA : Why are those farmers leaving their farms when they are subsidized by the Government? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : We have proved beyond doubt that one can live on that land if he does it properly and has the proper fertilisation and rotation of crops. Now before concluding I must issue a warning particularly to the members on the other side . Reference was made to rehabilitation being the cause of people being arrested . Well , that might have been true in one way, but do you expect the Government to sit idle and watch agitators telling the people to cut our fences and do away with rehabilitation measures? And what is funny is that these people who advised the people to cut the fences are out of gaol. The reason why they went to gaol was from a different cause altogether and the hon. Mr. Nkosiyane went to Qweqwe location and he had the audacity to say here that we were forcing the the people to fence , when he incited them that they should not accept rehabilitation , and to his disgrace and dishonour....

MR. J.B. NKOSIYANE : On a point of order, Mr. Chairman... THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : That is not a point of order that is a true statement. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : As soon as he was apprehended a deputation came from Qweqwe location to my Department and said : Please , Mr. Minister, expedite rehabilitation while Mr. Nkosiyane is in gaol · which I did. I am doing it now, and I warn him that if he should again interfere with those people and if he finds he has not enough trouble already on his head, I will put him into more trouble · unless , of course , he shoots me before that. (Interjections ) But if I die for the sake of the people and for the sake of rehabilitation I will have died for a good cause. And now, Mr. Chairman, a Government member suggested that we should take people to see these projects but, Mr. Chairman , I gave serious thought to that and , in fact, that is our practice · only we have not reached these people because some of them have gone too far and have reached a stage of no return. About dipping , which you mentioned , it is not the concern of my Department to buy dipping stuff. It is a matter which can be discussed in the regional authority and also it depends on the funds of the authority . I can assure the hon. members from Qumbu that although they are in the Opposition the Department is seriously thinking of introducing a big irrigation scheme there in its next five year plan and they must not expect this to happen overnight . Great investigations have got to be made. The type of soil has got to be surveyed and we have to pay heavily the experts who will examine this soil . Perhaps you will see that in my report. Of course I was not reading a report I was just reading a policy speech and that is why I could not go into detail . Well , I will not go into the other points but finally, Mr. Chairman , I must implore this House to put its shoulder to the advancement of agriculture and lift it high above politics , because from the reports that I get from people from overseas they tell me clearly that the Transkei can support three or four times its present population, and they wonder at the empty spaces which have not been ploughed and those which have not been ploughed properly. All we want from you

gentlemen is the will to work. (Interjections) I was surprised when one hon. member from the Opposition (I think it was the hon . Mr. Nkosiyane again ) said that soil reclamation is a foreign thing to us in the Transkei . It belongs to the White man. We want to live in our own traditional way, not improving our stock. That coming from a multi- racialist who always wants things done by the White people to be done also for the Black people ! How does he reconcile those statements? There is no traditional way for agriculture , except the improvement of agriculture. The hon. Mr. Mpondo says we are allowing the people to die of tuberculosis because we cannot supply them with sufficient milk. Isn't that absurd , Mr. Chairman? He is refusing to rehabilitate the soil and control grazing , while the people in the rehabilitated areas have a surplus of milk and they are selling cream to the dairies . I have seen a man at Mount Ayliff in one of the worst locations which has been rehabilitated , getting a cheque of R46 a month . That location was so poor when we reclaimed it that we had to reduce stock. It was during the time when there was culling. Today I am glad to say I have told the people they can have over 200 head of cattle in that location , and the trouble is they have no money. In regard to the cattle which you say we do not allow you to import, we are not indiscriminate. We will not allow you to import scrub cattle from the Republic. If you want cattle you must contact one of our veterinary officers either in the Free State or here , because we do not want to be a dumping ground for the Republic . We want to improve our stock so that we can get more milk , better wool and also better.... (Interjections ) May the Lord have mercy on your soul. Thank you very much , Mr. Chairman .

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Hon . paramount chiefs and hon. members , with referrence to Vote 5 it is moved by the hon . Mr. Jafta "That Vote 5 be reduced by R2,600 in respect of sub-head A, Minister's salary " . I shall put the question. The amendment was lost by 41 votes to 52. The amendment by the hon. Mr. J.B. Nkosiyane "That Vote 5 be reduced by R158,000 in respect of sub-head B , item 2 , Motor Transport" , was put and lost by 41 votes to 52. The amendment by the hon . Chief D.D.P. Ndamase "That Vote 5 be reduced by R10,000 in respect of sub-head H , item 7" was put and lost by 41 votes to 52 . THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : There was another amendment moved by the hon . Mr. N.C. Nogcantsi "That Vote 5 be reduced by R700,000 in respect of sub-head H , item 5, Land Reclamation Services" . This amendment was not seconded and therefore it falls away. I shall now put the question that the sum of R4.548,000 under Vote 5 stand part of the schedule .

The sum of R4,548,000 under Vote 5 , Department of Agriculture and Forestry, was passed to stand part of the schedule .

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , in view of the fact that I believe my colleague is not ready and the papers are not in front of us , I move that the House adjourn until 4.15 p.m.

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Agreed to.

A noteworthy addition to the staff is the regional authorities' road making personnel which has been "seconded" to this Department. ·1

AFTER TEA ADJOURNMENT. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : I shall now call upon the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works to deliver his policy speech .

POLICY STATEMENT BY THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS . Mr. Chairman, honourable Paramount Chiefs and members, in speaking to the 1966/67 Appropriation Bill now before the House and in dealing with Vote 6 (Roads and Works) I should like to make the following observations regarding the various subheads . Subhead "A" deals with salaries for which an amount of R147,000 has been set aside, representing a slight increase over last year's figure which, it may be mentioned, was estimated on the high side. It is appropriate and within the context of this subhead to deal with a few aspects concerning staff and personnel and in this connection it is necessary for me to re-iterate that although there was a marked improvement in the staff position during the past year there is still a shortage of staff particularly in the technical and professional fields . In addition a good deal of the administrative work in the Department is somewhat specialised , necessitating a large measure of training. Bearing in mind the fact that very few experienced Bantu clerks were brought over with the Engineering Branch of the former T.T.A. by far the greater part of the Bantu staff constituted new recruits fresh from school and without experience. Much the same can be said of the promotees to this department from elsewhere. Although this state of affairs has had its effect on the progress made by the Department over the past two years, there is reason to believe that we are over the worst and that we can look forward in the ensuing year to a substantial improvement. Conscious of the needs of the Department in regard to staff it is gratifying to place on record that the Public Service Commission has during the past year effected the following appointments.

Clerical posts Storekeepers Grade II Driver/Operators Semi-skilled labourers Workmen Gatekeeper/Nightwatchmen Total

: 19 : 3 : 77 12 : 3 : 3 117

In addition the following promotions were effected on the recommendation of the Public Service Commission :-

I am pleased to state that the Public Service Commission has agreed to and is in fact engaged in an inspection of my Department which it is anticipated will lead to the elimination of certain organisational weaknesses and the stiffening-up of a few of the sections , notably the Works section , where

the pressure of work is heaviest. All this will go in a long way toward ironing out the difficulties still experienced.

Subhead "B" : Subsistence and Transport. Subhead "C" : Postal, Telegraph and Telephone Services . AdvertiseSubhead " D" : Printing, Stationery, ments and Publications. Subhead "E" : Miscellaneous Expenses. Subhead "F" : Furniture . 12

Of this group of subheads the first four may 12 be regarded as providing for the running expenses of the Department while the last mentioned subhead provides for all official furniture required by all departments. On this group of subheads there has been an overall reduction of roughly R40,000 as compared with last year's figure.

Subhead "G" : Roads and Bridges . The fact that this year's figure of R814,000 is substantially less than the previous year's figure need not disturb the honourable members at all, since it is expected that actually more work will be done on roads this year than in previous years. The main reason for the apparent decrease is keener estimating which was made possible by more reliable figures of expenditure and assessment of potential becoming available. The Transkei Roads Act (Act No. 5 of 1965) was assented to by the State President on 8th February, 1966, was gazetted under Proclamation No. 82 of 25th February, 1966, and became law on 1st April, 1966 , under Proclamation No. 84 of 4th March, 1966. As from that date this Department became the road authority in the Transkei and as the honourable members know, such staff of the regional authorities as were engaged in road work are now on the payroll : of this Department. All road plant, tools and equipment in the possession of the regional authorities on 1st April , 1966 , was also taken over by this Department, an operation which, considering its scope, went off very smoothly, thanks in no small measure to the helpfulness of all regional authorities whom I take this opportunity to thank for their cooperation.

Clerks Grade II promoted to Clerk Grade I : 4 Driver/Operators promoted to Senior 11 Driver/Operator : 2 Workmen promoted to Senior Workmen Clerks Grade II promoted from other Departments to posts of Clerk, Grade I in : 11 this Department 28 Total

As against the above, 14 members of the staff were transferred or promoted from my Department to others . -184-

The schedule of government roads is soon to be declared and the Regulations to the Act are already in the course of preparation . The Regulations will embody in them a chapter describing the functions of a regional authority as a Road Board and will provide inter alia for the procedures to be followed in asking for new roads or new bridges or special attention to old roads and so on . The Road Boards will become operative during the current financial year.

It may be of interest to note that 12% of the money estimated for road works will be devoted to the development and construction of forest roads. I may mention here that it was found expedient from

an administrative as well as from a practical point of view that the Department of Agriculture and Forestry undertake the task of maintenance of forest roads · a further reason for the reduction in the

function it is to break up large stones deposited on the road in the course of the regravelling operation and to reduce these to smaller fragments ensuring greater comfort, safety and the preservation of vehicles. In addition these rollers have a good compactive effect on the road bed , enabling the road to handle heavy loads more easily, providing the gravels available are suitable.

amount of money under this subhead. As the forests in the Transkei are becoming amajor source of revenue to the country the provision of high standard roads in forests is a matter of great importance. Having this in mind my Department has established and will further strengthen a number of road construction units whose task will be confined solely to the construction of forest roads. This by no means implies a neglect of other roads. On the contrary it is intended to strengthen several of the construction units engaged in the building of government roads . It is in fact intended to raise the output of regravelling units considerably in order to accelerate the rather formidable regravelling programme with which my Department is faced. I believe I am right in saying that as far as road maintenance is concerned considerable strides have i already been made in this direction . We have by no means reached the end, however. One of the next steps is the creation of permanent road maintenance camps, which the Roads Act enables me to erect, so that personnel can be suitably housed together with their families. Before passing on to the next subhead there are two road matters which should be touched on . The

Subhead "J" : Building Services. The amount called for under this subhead is R789,100. Of this amount R292,000 will be devoted to 16 educational institutions , some of which will be completed during the current financial year. The majority, however, are so large that only partial completion is expected during this year. Similarly , an amount of R267,100 has been estimated for other building projects of a major works nature , all of which will be spread over a number of years . Over and above this an amount of R230,000 is required for minor works , i.e. projects costing less than R8,000, and alterations. These constitute a great number of smaller services and include a number of additional class rooms to existing schools . It is envisaged to handle most of the minor works departmentally as far as design , drawing and specification are concerned. The erection of some will also be carried out departmentally while others will go out to contract.

first concerns the use of relief workers during the past year. Whilst the number of people employed varied from time to time roughly 2,000 labourers benefited from the relief scheme and provided useful 12 additional working strength to the department. The second point concems the building of the new National Road from Baziya via Umtata to Libode . Consultations between the Department of Roads and Works, Agriculture and Forestry and the Department of the Interior on the one hand and Engineers from the Department of Transport, the Cape Provincial Administration and the Consultants on the other hand took place on several occasions . I am in a position to state that the interests of the Transkei were very closely watched during these consultations and it was found that the Republican authorities were most accommodating in their acceptance of certain requirements stipulated by the various representatives of this Government whose main concern was to ensure a minimum of disruption to the community and an adequate provision of normal communications by menas of service roads , access roads, agricultural underpasses , cattle creeps and the like, so that the existence of the free -way type of national road could not in any way disrupt the normal way of life or be a hindrance to the normal pursuits of the people.

Subhead "H" : Plant, Machinery, Equipment and Tools. The amount of money required for this subhead is R397,000 and also represents a substantial reduction in expenditure as compared with last year's figure. This must be seen as a move toward consolidating the Department's gains and an attempt to adjust expansion to the resources of staff and supervisory personnel available. Part of the amount is needed for the replacement of unserviceable plant whilst part is required for the strengthening of construction and regravelling units. In regard to the latter, apart from transport and loading equipment , it is intended to introduce more grid rollers whose -185-

The major works projects are generally so large in scope that only a few stereotyped projects , mostly secondary and higher schools, will be undertaken departmentally. All others will necessitate the appointment of consultants and several of the works listed have already been placed in the hands of architects. Notable among these are a diversity of buildings at the Blythswood school , the Umtata Government Buildings Additions (i.e. the building occupied by the Department of Agriculture and Forestry), the Ministerial houses and the proposed offices for the Department of Justice . The funds called for are of necessity large . Costs of individual items are indicative of the high costs of buildings and of the standards to which this Government means to build. Where speed of completion is essential and more so perhaps in rural areas consideration is being given to the use of industrialised building components which are claimed to be as durable and as effective in every respect as more conventional building styles. In this the Department is making full use of the Building Research Institute of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research through the good offices of the Xhosa Development Corporation. This subhead, too , has been severely reduced in comparison with last year's figures . This has , however, been done in strict accordance with the estimated potential of the Works Section which will , in order to do justice to all the services listed, have to strain itself to the uttermost to fulfil the programme.

Subhead " K" : General Maintenance . The amount earmarked under this subhead is R73,000 which again represents a reduction on the previous year's figure. Having more reliable figures of expenditure available from previous years and taking the Department's potential into account the

amount asked for is adequate for the financial year and will ensure that installations and buildings are given the necessary attention in regard to upkeep. Subhead "L"

Rents , Rates , Municipal Services , Water and Electricity , etc.

For the current financial year this subhead has been reduced to R78,000 which is in keeping with actual expenditure figures incurred latterly. The figures in previous years were in the very nature of circumstances then prevailing somewhat speculative , allowance having been made for expenditure which did not materialise .

Subhead "M"

Maintenance and Repair of Plant, Machinery , Equipment and Tools.

A substantial reduction has been found necessary under this subhead for reasons similar to those given in the preceding subheads. The amount earmarked for the ensuing year is R171,000. Subhead " N" : Government

Motor

Transport.

The amount of R520,000 provided for in the estimates for this year is much the same as that provided last year and is indicative of the fact that there is still a measure of expansion taking place in this field and that a good deal of the vehicles taken over two years ago are now due for replacement. My

Department now

has

is , therefore , expected from every user of Government-owned vehicles to make sure that repairs by y commercial garages to XG vehicles are carried out satisfactorily. Although during the financial year concerned vehicles on numerous occasions became defective, the Department , without exception , managed to provide a relief vehicle in such cases where a relief was required . le

An unfortunate aspect connected with government transport is the large number of accidents expe- jom rienced in the use of government vehicles. Whilst final figures for the past financial year are not 10 available at this stage the following statistical data d are reliable enough to be representative of the actual state of affairs .

Among the 450 vehicles on strength , which, incidentally, covered a distance in excess of two and a quarter million miles , there have been 140 accidents. Five of the vehicles had to be written 10 off as a total loss . C This means that during a year 1 out of every 3 vehicles runs the risk of being involved in an accident.

During the course of its life every vehicle may be expected to have suffered 3 accidents and in A some cases 4. 6

Every accident costs the Government on average R110.00 in direct costs .

a well established

A Government-owned motor vehicle transport service in operation. The Government-owned transport is controlled by the Transport Section which acts as a Government Garage for the Transkei and which is responsible for providing transport to the six Transkeian Departments . In contrast with the first year, when many difficulties were experienced just after the taking over of Government-owned vehicles on 1st July, 1964 , my Department was successful in maintaining a satisfactory transport service during the past financial year. All vehicles which were withdrawn from service, either as a result of having attained their mileage life or being damaged in accidents beyond repair, were replaced. All units required for additional services were also provided. The Transport Section of my Department has under its control 450 vehicles (66 units which have been withdrawn from service and in respect of which authority is awaited for sale by public auction have not been included in this figure). In addition to permanently allocated vehicles there is a "transport pool " of various types of vehicles e.g. trucks , light delivery vans, 4 wheel driven and sedan cars , comprising 72 units . These vehicles are kept in the pool and are issued , on application, in cases where an official whose duties do not justify the permanent issue of a vehicle , requiries transport, or in cases where a vehicle becomes defective and a relief is required . The Department is virtually entirely dependent on commercial garages for the repair and maintenance of its fleet. The vehicles under its control are spread over the whole of the Transkei and it is very difficult for the Department to keep proper control over repairs effected by commercial garages in respect of vehicles that are stationed outside Umtata. It

Every 1000 miles travelled by any vehicle involves the risk of R7.20 in accident charges.

The direct costs of accidents represent nearly 4% of the book value of all the vehicles . ad c This is indeed a gloomy picture and the Department is actively engaged in its endeavours to get down to the root of the trouble and to devise means for overcoming a most unsatisfactory state of affairs. Conclusion .

Mr. Chairman, honourable Paramount Chiefs and honourable members I should like to conclude my [ address by saying that the Estimates for Vote 6 in general show a reduction over the previous years' figures and can be taken as being as realistic as it has been possible to draw them up, thanks to the fact that the best possible use has been made of the experience gained over the past two years which the Department needed to make a proper assessment of the general requirements on the one hand and its own te potential on the other.

I should also like to take this opportunity to place on record my appreciation to all staff members in my Department for the effort they have put into building up the Department to its present stage of development. Another year of hard work and consolidation lies ahead of us , but with the experience gained and with the ground broken over the past two years we can look forward to greater achievements still during the current year. Mr. Chairman and honourable members , I move the adoption of Vote 6 of the Estimates. THE CHIEF MINISTER: I second , Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, before moving the adjournment of the

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House I hereby give notice that tomorrow, the 17th day of May, 1966 , I will move the first reading of a bill to amend Proclamation R.334 of 1963 relating to the Transkeian Government Service. MR. K.M. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if this House in committee is properly constituted to receive notices of bills . I submit that this notice will be ruled out of order altogether until the House is properly constituted to receive notices of bills from the hon. the Chief Minister.

QUESTION 30: Mr. L.A. Luwaca asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry: "Has the honourable the Minister of Agriculture not been able to find money to purchase effective dipping chemicals in order to extend time in between dipping days?"

REPLY : THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chariman , I was taking a chance. (Laughter) Before adjourning I wish that the House be properly constituted and that the Chairman take the chair as I have to move this bill and it is important that I move it today.

House Resumed

TE NOTICE OF BILL : PROCLAMATION R334 of 1963. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I hereby give notice that tomorrow, the 17th day of May, 1966, I will move the first reading of a bill to amend Proclamation R334 of 1963 relating to the Transkei Goverment Service. The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 17th May, 1966. TUESDAY, 17TH MAY, 1966.

The Assembly resumed at 11 am. Prayers were read.

E

The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed.

3.

ANNOUNCEMENTS .

3

QUESTIONS .

The question does not apply to the Department of Agriculture and Forestry because it does not buy the dipping material . MR. K.M. GUZANA: Arising from the reply of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture, Mr. Chairman, mav I know if it is not within the powers of his Department to recemmend chemicals to regional authorities under this head, and if so, have they done so? If there were to be a uniform recommendation then the regional authorities would use the same chemicals throughout and it would be controliable by his Department. THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE : I will just go out of the way out of mere courtesy to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition because of his position, otherwise I would ask him to reduce the question to writing. I am pleased to inform the House that the Department has nothing to do whatsoever with the type of chemical that has to be used by each authority as that depends entirely on the funds of the respective authority. That advice is available, funds permitting, from our district staff. Beyond that we have nothing to say with regard to the local administration of those funds.

QUESTION 31:

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, as we are having a short recess during this week because of the Republican celebrations, I wish to announce that tomorrow the House will rise at 1 p.m. to enable the hon. paramount chiefs, chiefs, headmen and the hon. members to get home in time to prepare for the Republican celebrations, and the House will sit again on Monday next week.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr. Chairman . members, I beg to give notice that on and hon Monday, 23rd May , 1966 , I propose to move for leave to introduce a bill to provide for the control, administration and supervision of education and for matters incidental thereto.

Mr. L.A. Luwaca asked the honourable the Minister of Finance: "That since last Parliament how many seconded Europeans have been replaced by Transkei an personnel? "

REPLY: Statistics regarding the replacement of seconded Republican officials are only available in respect of calender years. I refer you to the reply to question No. 24(c) fumished on Tuesday the 10th May, 1966, and paragraph 29 of the Public Service Commission's Annual Report for 1965. QUESTION 32: Mr. G.S. Dana asked the Minister of Finance: -

TRANSKEI GOVERNMENT SERVICE AMENDMENT BILL : FIRST READING ,

(a) "Whether qualified Africans in the Transkeian Civil Service enjoy the same salaries and promotions as the Whites?

(b) If not, why not?" THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move that the bill to amend Proclamation R334 of 1963 be now read a first time. THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: Mr. Chairman, I second. Agreed to. The bill was read a first time.

REPLY : (a) The Transkeian Govemment Service does not employ Whites and is therefore not responsible for their salaries or promotions. The White officials employed in the Transkei employees of the Republican Public Service.

(b) Falls away . -187-

QUESTION 33: Mr. L.A. Luwaca asked the Minister of Justice : "(a) Is the honourable the Minister aware of stock theft that is prevalent in the Transkei ? (b) If so, what steps is he taking to eradicate this evil? If not, why not?"

REPLY: (a) I am aware of the occurrence of stock theft in the Transkei , (b) My Department has launched a campaign to bring the provisions of sections 7 and 8 of the Stock Theft Act, 1959 (Act No. 57 of 1959) to the notice of stock owners and to urge them to comply therewith. These provisions are aimed at the prevention of stock theft.

THE CHAIRMAN : I think the hon . Minister should reply to the questions only. (Laughter)

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Does the questioner want me to read the letter? Here it is: " Stock Documents required in Theft Act No. 57 of 1959 terms of Sections 7 and 8. The provisions of Stock Theft Act No. 57 of 1959 are also applicable to the Transkei. Although the Act was promulgated in 1959 it was only put into operation with effect from the 1st April, 1962. For several reasons the police for a lengthy period did not strictly enforce the provisions of especially sections 6, 7 and 8. As a result of the renewed activity of the police in this regard, dissatisfaction and a good deal of confusion have arisen among the Transkei an citizens in certain districts. In view of possible political repercussions it has been decided by the police to suspend strict measures for the enforcement of the provisions of sections 6, 7 and 8 until a later date. In the meantime it will be appreciated if magistrates will kindly do everything in their power to kindly explain the relevant provisions to the residents of their districts at each quarterly meeting. Kindly advise and allow the Station Commander, S.A. Police, and the agricultural officers to be present at such meeting. It is suggested that in order to avoid possible confusion and for the sake of uniformity the provisions of sections 6, 7 and 8 be explained on the following lines: Section 7 every seller of stock or produce must at the time of delivery provide the buyer with a document not being older than 30 days , certifying that such person is entitled to dispose of his stock or produce. The stock or produce to be sold must also be described in this document. Such document is procurable from the seller's employer, chief or headman, or from a dipping foreman or stock inspector. No buyer should negotiate with a seller unless such a document can be fumished there and then. This document must be retained by the buyer for at least three months. Section

MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman, arising from the li detailed reply which we have received from the hon. E the Minister of Justice, may I know if this in fact refers to movement of stock being driven by the owner or a messenger only, and only to the seller or STION a person who sells, so that in the event of my reEK.C ceiving a donation I need not go through this rig marole? It often happens that chiefs and sub-chiefs, note, get gifts of sheep and take them home. I am also included in that category although I am not a sub-chief. (Laughter) Would the hon. Minister just explain on that score where a gift has been given. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : I think that is covered under section 8: " Any owner of stock or produce who sends another person to drive his stock or convey his produce on or along any public road must furnish this other person with a document containing certain particulars. " I think when it says "any owner" under this section it does not refer to the question of sale because if you send somebody, you being an owner, for any purpose to drive your stock you must give certain particulars to that person.

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THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : In amplification of this reply I wish to inform the members that during November, 1964, circular letters were written to all magistrates in the districts of the Transkei . The questioner, who is not attentive, would perhaps care to know the contents of the circular letter. I have got it here and am in a position to read it. I think we would be better off without the hon. member for Qaukeni.

person to drive his stock or convey his produce on or sig along any public road must fumish this person with c document containing certain particulars. These and particulars are clearly set out in this section and in the regulations published under Goverment Notice No. 262 of 1962. " Now there are forms here which que are relevant to what is contained here. "Please's inform this office as soon as possible how many toth ishi forms will be required for the district for a period of one year. Separate figures should be furnished in the respect of documents referred to in section 7 and est smas documents referred to in section 8." D

ON LI

ha DE

THE CHAIRMAN : I think I can allow you to ask only one question on this. We cannot have a discussion. MR. GUZANA: This is just arising from the reply. Sir, I concede that if I am the owner and ask somebody to drive my beast then indeed I must furnish them with a document, for the ownership in that stock or produce is still vested in me , but if I make a gift to you I divest myself of the ownership and the ownership passes on to the person who receives the gift.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: How does the gift get to the recipient without your driving it?

MR. GUZANA: I am at my house · you are at yours. You give me the sheep. In effect delivery is effected at my kraal. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: The particulars must be given. MR. GUZANA: But I am neither selling the thing not am I asking you to drive my sheep along to a certain place. It is yours by donation , not by sale. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : But before that can be driven you must have those particulars. You are not going to keep it at my place. It has to be driven elsewhere.

8- Any owner of stock or produce who sends another -188-

QUESTION 34: Mr. K.G. Nota asked the Minister of Roads and Works:

C

I +

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"Under which conditions can an establishment comprising the Magistrate's Office, police outpost and post office in Tabankulu district be erected for Amacwera and Amangqamza tribes? "

REPLY: The question regarding the establishment of magistrate's offices and police posts should be directed to the Minister of Justice. On the matter of of establishing a post office , since postal matters fall under the purview of the Republican Govemment any request for such facilities should be directed to the postmaster of the district within which it is desired to provide additional facilities, stating distance to nearest post office and also the number of people likely to make use of the facilities. The postmaster will then arrange to have the matter investigated.

QUESTION 35: Mr. K.G. Nota asked the Minister of Finance: "Why is the Transkeian Goverment not subsidising- the purchase price of the imported maize for the Transkei? "

MR. GUZANA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, arising from the reply of the hon. the Minister of Education in which he has stated that if the continued employment of a teacher is not in the interests of the service then he is given three months ' notice , may we know what factors are considered before it is decided that it is not in the interests of the service to continue the teacher in the service of the Department? I consider that inefficiency is a reason that can be given without embarrassment to the Department, or lack of qualifications , but what is encompassed in the phrase " not in the interests of the service" ? What factors are usually considered so that it may be proper to say: To continue your employment in the service is not in the interests of the service. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman, I will ask the hon. member to put that question in writing..

QUESTION 38: Mr. M.J. of Education : -

asked the

Minister

"(a) " Why was the transfer order of one teacher out of seven originally marked being withdrawn?

REPLY: This question should be referred to the Minister of Interior.

(b) What reasons justified the change of a decision by the Department of Education of the seventh teacher?

QUESTION 36: Mr. K.G. Nota asked the Minister of Education : -

(c) Who paid for the transport of those whose transfer orders were not withdrawn? ”

" What is the Department of Education doing in order to encourage the Ngangelizwe Night school ?"

REPLY : This school was brought into being as a private venture, and the Department has not as yet given any tangible assistance. It is the intention, however, to assist in the remuneration of teachers and, with this in view, preliminary investigations have already been set under way.

Dumalisile

REPLY: (a) The

Department

teachers if it the interests Similarly , if cancelled , it view.

Education

transfers rs regards such transfe to be in of education in the Transkei . the transfer of a teacher is is done with the same end in of

(b) The demands of the service.

QUESTION 37; Mr. K.G. Nota asked the Minister of Education :(a) "Is it the policy of the Department of Education to dismiss teachers without a stated reason?

(b) If so, why? (c) Why are the African female school supervisors not supplied with motor vehicles for

(c) The Department. MR. M.J. DUMALISILE : Mr. Chairman , in view of the reply advanced by the hon. the Minister of Educa tion to Question 38 ( b) , did the Department of Education not understand, before they changed their minds about transferring that teacher that the services of that teacher were satisfactory in the area in which he was teaching?

transport" THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : I shall ask the hon. member to put his question in writing!

REPLY : (a) Where teachers are dismissed as a result of misconduct - the reasons for dismissal are obvious. On the other hand, if the Depart ment is satisfied that the continued employment of a teacher in a permanent capacity is not in the interests of the Service, such teacher may be dismissed with notice of three months , in which case the Department is not obliged to advance reasons for the dismissal.

(b) Falls away. (c) The question of providing official transport to Supervisors, male or female , is receiving attention and a decision will only be taken after the matter has been fully investigated.

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QUESTION 39: Mr. M.J. Dumalisile asked the Minister of Education : (a) "Is the Minister aware of a situation which as a result of transfer orders to seven Willowavle teachers presented a difficulty, in having some of the vacancies not being filled up to date? (b) If so, what steps his Department intends taking to save teachers and pupils from this predicament? "

REPLY : (a) Yes.

the College or of the Department to sell fowls and we are not obliged to advise you where to buy them. I might advise you to buy them from me. I have a lot of fowls (Laughter), or you may consult the " Farmer's Weekly " .

(b) The Department has filled most of the vacanvies and has taken steps to fill the remaining vacancies at the earliest possible date.

QUESTION 40: Mr. C.S. Mnyila asked the Minister of Justice:"Why is the heir not allowed to take possession of the fire-arm of his deceased father? " REPLY: The possession of an unlicensed firearm is an offence, even if such firearm has been inherited. An heir can therefore only take possession of such fire-arm after havin obtained the necessary licence in terms of the Arms and Ammunition Act, 1937 ( Act No. 28 of 1937) .

QUESTION 42; Mr. K. G. Nota asked the Minister of the Interior.(a) "What is the difference between a general dealer's licence and a native trader's licence? (b) Why are renewal fees for these licences not the same? " REPLY: The word "Bantu" has been substituted for

"Native" in official terminology.

MR. O.O. MPONDO: Mr. Chairman, arising out of the reply by the hon. the Minister , the question was put by the hon. member for Fingoland on the grounds that the father had a licence for the firearm and now the heir is not given that licence, nor the firearm nor the money for it. We want the hon. Minister to explain to us what he thinks in that connection. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : The question arising out of my reply as has been put to me now is not quite clear and in order to clarify the position I will ask my hon. friend to reduce his question to Wi ting. MR . GUZANA: Arising from the first reply given by the hon. the Minister of Justice may I know, Sir, if the heir, if he is the executor in the estate of his late father will be allowed to retain possession - mere possession of the fiream until the estate is wound up or has he to surrender it to the magistrate; or alternatively has he to obtain a special pemmit to hold that as an asset in the estate? THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Dalindyebo, being a legal man, knows that possession of an unlicensed fiream is the same whether by an executor of an estate or by an individual. It is therefore up to the executor to make application for a permit, whether it be temporary or otherwise, to be in possession of the firearm .

QUESTION 41: Mr. N. Jafta asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry: "I note that fowls are no longer obtained at the Tsolo School of Agriculture for sale to the African public. Sould any reasons be given for this situation and could we be advised where to obtain them? "

REPLY : The Poultry Section of the Tsolo Agricultural College provides for training purposes only. Surpluses that do result in the ordinary event are, after the requirements of the College and the Jon gilizwe College have been met, sold to farmers. This will also be the case in future but the College cannot undertake to provide for all the needs of farmers.

CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman, the hon. Minister has not completed the reply. Where can we buy these fowls? THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE: The question is unnecessary because it is not the purpose of

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(a) A General Dealer's licence is issued in terms of Part I to the Second Schedule of Act No. 44 of 1962 and " shall be required by every person who carries on a trade or business in any shop , store or place where goods, wares, merchandise , produce or livestock are sold, bartered or exchanged or offered or exposed for sale, barter or exchange if the trade or business so carried on is not covered by any other licence under the Act. "

A Bantu Trader's Licence is issued in tems of the provisions of Proclamation No. 224 of 1934, which was originally designed to enable Natives to operate businesses in the locations under less stringent conditions than those applicable to General Dealer's businesses , i.e. on order to encourage Native businesses in their own areas. The procla mation provides that a Bantu Trader's business may be conducted on a residential or building site whereas a General Dealer's licence is usually issued to businesses conducted on Trading sites held under Title in terms of proclamation No. 11 of 1922, or conducted in urban areas. (b) The fees payable for a General Dealer's licence are also laid down in the Second Schedule to Act No. 44 of 1962 and are based on the value of the stock carried by such business , ie.. the higher the value of the stock the bigger the licence payable. The licence fee in respect of Bantu Trader's businesses is not based on the value of the stock carried by such businesses but it is laid down by the provisions of proclamation No. 244 of 1934, as being R10, an amount which is very much lower than that payable for a General Dealer's licence based on the value of the stock carried. The prime reason for the difference in the amount of licence fee payable was obviously to make it easier for Bantu Traders to acquire licences and establish their own businesses . Furthemore it was at the time conceded that Bantu Trader's businesses generally carried stock of a lesser value than the old established General Dealer's businesses . Payment of the lesser licence fee was therefore a rebate in the indirect taxation of the Bantu Trader designed to encourage him to establish his own business and also to make it easier for him to do so.

ed to issue permits to workseekers proceeding to urban areas in the Republic. Such permits are issued by the authorities in the urban areas . It is only upon receipt of these permits that Magistrates can endorse the reference books of workseekers as authority for them to proceed to the urban areas concemed.

(a) "How much money has been spent on adult education in the Transkei?

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上

QUESTION 43: Mr. N.C. Nogcantsi asked the Minister of Education :-

(b) How much financial assistance has been given to Ngangelizwe Night School?

(c) The function of issuing passports has not been assigned to the Transkei Govemment, and it is therefore in the discretion of the Republican Government to issue such documents, depending on the circumstances of each case.

(c) What is the govemment policy regarding the allocation of grants or are they based on the roll or the average attendance? (d) Is the appointment of teachers clerks or the professional staff? "

done by

REPLY : (a) None. A post of Organiser of Physical and Adult Education has been created and this aspect of education will now receive attention.

(b) None. (c) As all teaching posts are Departmental , the system of grants has been dispensed with. Additional posts are created by the Department after careful consideration and are based on enrolment and available accommodation. (d) All requirements in regard to qualifications and experience are fixed by the professional staff, after which appointments in the case of post-primary assistant teachers and principals and vice-principals of all schools are approved by the Minister whilst appointments of assistant teachers at primary schools are made by administrative officials on behalf of the Secretary. With the exception of the temporary appointment of assistant teachers at primary schools for a period not exceeding three months, all appointments are made only after the recommendations of the respective regional authorities have been received and considered.

QUESTION 44: Mr. N. C. Nogcantsi asked the Minister ofInterior:(a) How many able-bodied men are unemployed in the Transkei? (b) Why should the Magistrates refuse to issue permits to workseekers proceeding to urban areas?

QUESTION 45: Mr. K.G. Nota asked the Minister of Finance: Arising from the Minister's reply to question 22 by the honourable member for Nyanda region, Chief D.D.P. Ndamase, can the Minister of Finance tell this House that if the estimated surplus is equal to or less than that stated for the financial year 1965/66 i.e.R1,805,000 the Govemment will apply for an additional assistance under paragraph (d) of subsection (52) (1)?

REPLY : Although the books for the financial year 1965/66 have not as yet been closed the indications are that the surplus in the Transkeian Revenue Fund as at 31st March, 1966 will be in the region of R4,817,000. The question therefore falls away.

QUESTION 46: Chief D.D.P. Ndamase asked the Minister of Interior:"Will the Department of Interior table its employees' pension quinquennial actuarial report during the 1967 Transkei Legislative Assembly?

If not why? " REPLY : The actuarial report will be tabled as soon as it is available. It is hoped that this will be possible at the 1967 session of the Transkei Legislative Assembly.

QUESTION 47: Rev. B.S. Rajuili asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry: (a) "Are there plantations in all regions of the Transkei ?

(c) Why are passports not issued freely to every applicant?

(b) If

REPLY : (a) Only a comparatively small percentage of workseekers register in advance with the labour bureaux, and for this reason it is impossible to determine the total number of able-bodied men who are unemployed at any' given time. For figures in regard to unemployed registered workesekers I have to refer the honourable member to the statement made by me in my Policy Speech on 12th May, 1966 .

not,

what

regions

have plantations?

(c) Which districts in those regions have those plantations? 2.

(a) In the Matatiele district what tribal authorities have the plantations?

(b) Name the plantations . 3.

(b) Magistrates in the Transkei are not empower-191-

(a) In the Mount Fletcher district what tribal authorities have the plantations? (b) Name the plantations in those tribal authorties."

(b) and (c) fall away. 2.

(a) In the Matatiele district no tribal authorities own plantations. All plantations are owned by the Transkei Govemment.

(b) Falls away. 3.

(a) Refer to reply on 2(a) above.

(b) Falls away. QUESTION 48: Mr. N.C. No gcantsi asked the Minister of Roads and Works: -

Govemment receives such request from those people it will no doubt receive favourable consideration.

(a)"When will the roads of the Transkei be macadamised?

(2) When trained and qualified Survey Staff will be available to undertake the colossal task of surveying all the land allotments in the unsurveyed districts . Incidentally there is such a dearth of qualified survey people throughout the Republic that my Department has been unable to fill all the vacant survey posts

(b) Why should roads in the Transkei not be regularly and quarterly inspected by district road inspectors?"

REPLY : (a) All Govemment Roads in the Transkei are macadamised.

on its establishment and the survey section is presently more than fully occupied with the survey of compensatory allotments in the rehabilitated surveyed districts and with other routine survey work that crops up from time to time.

(b) Main secondary and forestry roads are inspected more regularly and more frequently than quarterly by Regional and Head office road inspection staff.

QUESTION 49: Mr. N.C. Nogcantsi asked the Minister of Finance and Chief Minister: -

Fore

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(b) In unsurveyed districts in terms of the provisions of Proclamation No. 26 of 1936, the Magistrate (Native Commissioner) is empowered to allocate kraal and land sites. He does this in pursuance of the Transkei Cabinet's wishes in collaboration and consultation with the tribal authority having jurisdiction in the area concemed. This is a function of the tribal authority in terms of section 4 (1) (d) (iii ) of the Transkei Authorities .Act, 1965.

"Why should the portfolio of Finance not be di vorced from that of Chief Minister?" REPLY: The volume of work does not, at this stage, warrant the divorce of the Portfolio of Finance from that of Chief Minister. Further, it is necessary that the Chief Minister as political leader should also be responsible for the finances of the Transkei Govemment at this stage of development.

(c) In unsurveyed districts :In terms of section 18 of Proclamation No. 26 of 1936 read with section 67 of the Transkei Constitution Act No. 48 of 1963 appeals from the decision of the Bantu Affairs ! Commissioner be to the Secretary for the Interior.

QUESTION 50: Mr. N.C. Nogcantsi asked the Minister of Interior:

(a)"When will the certificates of occupation be replaced by title-deeds in the rural areas?

In surveyed districts:The power to authorise and register transfers of allotments held under the title deed is vested in the Secretary for the Interior as Registrar of Deeds for the Transkei and any person who feels aggrieved at the decision of the Secretary may in certain circumstances approach the Supreme Court for relief.

(b) Who is in charge of the allocation of kraal and land sites? (c) Where do the land appeals go to?" REPLY: (a) In the seven surveyed districts of the Transkei, namely Umtata, Engcobo, Tsomo, Nqamakwe, Xalanga, Idutywa and Butterworth, garden and building allotments are already held under title deed in tems of the provisions of Proclamation No. 227 of 1898. In the remaining unsurveyed districts of the Transkei land allotments are held under pemissions to occupy (certificates of occupation) issued by the Magistrate (Native

FLY The

防止

Commissioner) in tems of Proclamation No. 26 of 1936. At this stage it is not possible to state exactly when these pemis sions to occupy will be replaced by title deeds. It will naturally depend on many factors(1) It is not possible to substitute title deeds for certificates of occupation unless and until the system of tenure is changed and all allotments are properly surveyed as in the seven surveyed districts of the Transkei. The residents of the 19 unsurveyed districts have apparently never been in favour of the in dividual tenure and survey system and have not asked for it to be introduced in their districts. If and when the Transkei

REPLY : 1. (a) Yes .

QUESTION 51: Mr. G.G. Kutu asked the Minister of Education:"Why some of the teachers who die at the age of 55 years do not receive a pension from the Department whereas they paid pension contributions during their working period?"

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THE

REPLY:

THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS: I second, Mr. Chaiman.

The teachers referred to presumably contributed to the Cape Teachers' Pension Fund and are subject to the conditions of that Fund over which the Transkei Education Department has no control.

Agreed to.

House in Committee , QUESTION 52: Mr. G. G. Kutu asked the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry: -

The debate on Vote 6, Department of Roads and Works, was resumed.

"Why the dipping foremen get low wages although they do more work?" .

MR. K.G. NOTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members I stand up to move:

REPLY:

"That Vote 6 be reduced by R2,600 in respect of sub-head A, item Minister's salary. "

This is a matter that rests solely with the regional authorities .

Mr. Chairman, this amendment is based on several reasons. In speaking on this matter I would like to say that the hon. Minister was rather vague in his report in connection with this Department. If we look carefully into the Votes it will be noted that ever since the institution of this Assembly the Votes have been continually reduced right up to the present time. From the first year up to the present this Vote has been reduced by R1,112,000. Accordingly this reduction would indicate that the work is progressing well and is being completed and is gradually costing less and less, but in his policy speech he indicates that the work, particularly in regard to building construction, is not going well due to a shortage of qualified artisans. This does not correlate well with the Votes he is normally allocated. May I refer this matter to him since he himself reports that he finds it difficult to get qualified men: Would the hon. Minister kindly explain to this House what efforts he is making to overcome that difficulty? In his policy speech he referred to the fact that he wanted to put up technical and vocational schools.

QUESTION 53: Mr. G. G. Kutu asked the Minister of the Interior:"Why the salaries?"

pensioners

should

not

get better

REPLY:

2 2 E

7

The question is not understood and therefore cannot be replied to . The hon. member does not specify what pensioners he is referring to and I wish to point out that pensioners do not draw salaries. MR. KUTU: Mr. Chaiman, I am sorry that the hon. the Minister of the Interior says my question is not clear. I was asking on behalf of old people who are getting old age pensions.

Z THE CHAIRMAN : I think you should put question in writing, hon. member.

E

Before we hon. members, the members to Chief Minister reading of the ment Bill.

the

adjoum , hon. paramount chiefs and I would like to draw the attention of item 4 on the order paper and ask the which day he intends for the second Transkei Govemment Service Amend-

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Tomorrow, Mr. Chairman. MR. GUZWNA: Mr. Chairman, I move that we adjoum until 2.15 p.m.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Is the Minister of Roads responsible for putting up schools? That is a matter for the Department of Education.

MR. NOTA: Of the two schools promised, one at Umtata and the other at Matatiele, neither has been built yet. We have voted for these undertakings, as we are doing now, and I am sure that even next year nothing will have been achieved in regard to those schools.

MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: I second. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chaimman, I am going to oppose this proposal. We have not come here to waiste time. We have got to move even if there is only one speaker, and I move that the House sit in committee.

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION :

I second.

THE CHAIRMAN : It is late already and by the time we have voted on that it will be one o'clock. I therefore rule that we should adjoum until 2.15. AFTERNOON SESSION The Assembly resumed at 2.15 p.m. TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL OF SUPPLY

COMMITTEE

THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chaiman and hon. members, I move that the House converts itself into

THE CHIEF MINISTER: The Minister of Roads is not responsible for schools. MR. NOTA: His Department is responsible for building all the schools. I will pass on to something else in connection with the renting of buildings. We want to know whether the Government ever takes the trouble to investigate and find out whether there are buildings that can be rented at a fairly low figure, rather than that it should appear that so much is being spent on rent. The hon. Minister referred to a great deal of wastage as far as vehicles are concemed. I will commend him for at least having had the courage to mention this because it is evident that there is a lot of wastage. I would ask him , in in vestigating this matter, to be careful as to what use these vehicles are put and whether they are used for party political purposes.

THE CHIEF MINISTER : You are talking nonsense.

committee of supply. MR . NOTA: We have noticed that these vehicles -193-

are used by T.N.I.P. members to attend their ' T.N.I.P .. meetings. We saw these cars at Umzimkulu and I saw them again when the hon the Minister of Agriculture was in our area, when they were putting forward the political views of their party. I would ask the hon. Minister not to allow this Govemment to follow the example of Ghana in the misuse of public funds.

the road and I will tell him that if I give him a lift he will just go and report the matter to the authorities. I think there is no objection to this policy statement even from the Opposition . As far as his complaint about the party activities is concemed, it is the habit of some people to criticize anything. I think I have now put him on the right road and I hope he will speak sense in future.

MISS L. TWETWA: Mr. Chai man and hon. members, I rise to second the amendment.

surprised than an hon. member should rise and point out faults in a speech which is so good. I anticipated unanimity in this matter because the speech is not partial and does not have the interests of any particular party. All that is mentioned in this statement is for the benefit of all the people we represent. I will

MISS L. TWETWA: Mr. Chairman and hon . members, the last speaker has just referred to the Vote set aside for the erection of bridges. I also am witness to that. However, I expected that in the policy speech of the hon . Minister he would have been very definite as to what had been done , because last year's policy statement also referred to the construction of these bridges. The hon . Minister will remember that at a meeting in Tsolo much was said about the bridge that had been put up. The people asked that the Inxu River be bridged and it was reported at that meeting that many lives had been lost

start with a very important matter as far as this Department is concemed, and I want to say that many people have had employment as a result, which is a great need. I also want to say that at the inception of this Govemment there were great difficulties in the construction of roads as a result of the absence of

as a result of people being swept away by the river. Last year reference was made to the putting up of a bridge over the Tsitsa and I thought it fit to combine these two requests, and also the bridge over the Gqukun qa valley in the Qumbu district. There is one real purpose for the erection of these bridges and

plant and machinery. We are glad to note that as much as R397,000 has been earmarked for the purchase of machinery. We also notice that as much as R789,000 has been set aside for building operations. We have evidence of the progress that is being made on the roads themselves because most of the roads

that is to save the lives of people when they cross the rivers.

MR. J.M. SINEKE: Mr. Chai man and hon. members, I rise to associate myself with the policy statement of the hon. the Minister of Roads. I am

now are up to the standard of main roads . The hon. Minister personally holds inspections of those roads which are in disrepair. That shows he is industrious. It also pleases us to hear that in the building programme there are secondary and high schools being planned. As certain sums have been earmarked for this purpose, there is no need for any member to ask where the buildings are because they will be started now that the nomey has been set aside. I remember last session one member asked why the Ministers were housed in buildings that looked like dormitories in schools instead of like houses. That hon. member should note that those houses will now be built because the money has been earmarked for that purpose. Again, R814,000 has been allocated for the construction of bridges. People have been complaining about the lack of these bridges and now the money is there and the bridges will be constructed. Again , the Department has eamarked an amount of R147,000 for salaries and wages. That should dispel any doubt in the mind of anybody that these things will not happen because the money has been set aside. We also note that in this Department quite a number of clerks have been employed. In fact there are 19 clerks , and seve ral driver-operators have been appointed. The important thing to remember is that all along people have been complaining about the road gangs who lead water on to their mealie lands during their opera-

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THE CHIEF MINISTER: This is not a regional authority. MISS TWETWA: It is for that reason that I rise , because the policy statement was not too clear. One thing which makes me suspicious is that when I put a vote in connection with these bridges, if you will allow me, I think the hon. Minister overlooked it. He put it down at the very bottom so that it should. not be discussed. People's lives are lost as a result of crossing these swollen rivers. In these times of great famine and hunger it is very difficult when people have to transport their foodstuffs across the swollen rivers. May I now refer to the huge boulders and rocks which are found even on the main roads, so that people who travel by car are compelled to stop their cars and remove the stones before they can continue. Modem cars are very low and if you have large stones on the road they damage the cars. Apart from this it often happens that after the road has been dug over and scraped, for a long time no gravel is put on top and if the rain comes a great deal of mud results. The hon. Minister will remember that last year I mentioned certain routes which I specially asked him to take note of. Up to now nothing has been done to any of those roads. The route from Qumbu to Sulenkama is full of corrugations and from Mtozelo you will find that the road is so bad that the heavy trucks carting foodstuffs often stick in the mud. Even a pedestrian finds it difficult to use that

road. At Sulenkama you will find that the road tions. Today the work is carried out by the landpasses through the hospital grounds, which is very owners themselves and the complaint has therefore dangerous to the patients in the hospital and particubeen eliminated. Even if a member is in the Opposilarly to little children who run across the road. tion he must not oppose what is for his benefit . As THE CHIEF MINISTER: Go to your regional I say, all the hon . Minister has enumerated in his authority. You are wasting time. speech stands for the benefit of the people. To pass on to the complaint of the hon . Mr. Nota, who comMISS TWETWA: This road is used by many plains that these vehicles are used for political buses and we make a request therefore that a party activities, I am sorry that I am not one of the deviation should be made past the hospital grounds Ministers and therefore have no vehicle allotted to and not through them. As I say, I made reference to me because if I had one I would not give the hon. several roads and after the road has been dug out member any lifts. (Laughter) I would just pass him on -194-

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by machinery it is a very long time before gravel is out down on the road. It is for those reasons that I support the amendment that the Vote for this Department should be reduced as the hon. Minister has done very few of the things he promised to do. He is a personal friend of mine but as far as these matters are concerned I feel I must mention them. MR . E. PINY ANE : Mr. Chair man and hon members , judging from the remarks of the Opposi tion it is clear that they have no knowle dge of road matters . The Departm o ent f Roads is one of those departm w s a great deal of money h p i e c n h d s ents because road constru ction and the purchase of machine c ry osts a great deal . After the roads have been built the rains come and damage the roads . Owing to this state of affairs my own region appointed me to accompa t r i t t ny he oad nspector hrough he TES six districts to examine this damage . In some areas we found it was impossi ble for a vehicle like a truck to go through and all the traders were making a noise and complai , each one trying to see that the ning mad to his place was repaire . All this erosion of d mads means that the gravel which has been put on has not been put to proper use . As far as the remark of the hon . Miss Twetwa is con cemed , that no attention is paid to the repair of the roads , before a machine sets out to repair the roads it gets damage d and then a complai nt is made that no attention is paid to the roads . The majorit of theOpposi y tion member do not know what is happen s ing on these roads , like break downs of tractors . As far as road operati ons are concemed there is a definite programme to be followe and, as I have mentio ned , d while this program is being carried on calamit me ies and acciden t ts ake place so that in the absence of machine w h t r ry e ave o esort to road gangs to see to the repair of the damage roads . Then there is a d complai t t nt hat his is intentional although it is only natural damage to the roads . I say that instea of a d reducti on in the Minister's salary there should actually be an increas because he has done a lot e for us with these Governm m ent oneys . What do you suggest must be done ? OPPOSITION MEMBER: Sit down and we will tell you.

MR. PINYANE : The roads have been repaired and bridges constructed. Gravel has been put down. : (Interjections)

THE

DEPUTY

CHAIRMAN :

Order,

please.

MR. PINY ANE: I say there should be an increase instead of a reduction in the Minister's salary . We are building the roads. All over the Transkei there is nothing wrong except that you are criticizing for the sake of criticism. (Interjections) The hon. the Minister of Justice mentioned that God made himself an image in the form of Satan and that is what you are doing, because Satan can see no good in God's work and he never compliments God. Instead of complimenting God on his work he actually tries to spoil it. Instead of praising the Minister's work you are trying to spoil it. MR. L.Z. MAJIJA: Mr. Chai man and hon . members, I will not act like the speaker on the opposite side who , when we were discussing the Education Vote, referred to the meat feast at Corana. Evidently he ate so much of the meat that even in his sleep he dreamt about it. ( Laughter) I will make this addition to what was said by the hon. member on the Opposition side in connection with the erection of bridges.

Over the Bashee River there is a bridge on the road from Engcobo to Gqaga. That route is used by the magistrate and lawyers who go to Gqaga and when the river is high it becomes impossible for the magistrate and the attomeys to get across the river to Gqaga. So too with the bridge over the Xuka and along the route from Coghlan to Clarkebury - that bridge is rather low and the causeway is often under water. I make the request that these bridges which I have mentioned should be raised so that they are high enough to cross. It is really not a request. What I should say is that you have failed to take note of this and it should be put right. Your roads are not properly gravelled and during heavy rains there is a great deal of washaway , and now you say it is the stock at Engcobo which causes soil erosion and you fail to note that you are responsible for a lot of that soil erosion in that you did not work the roads properly. Last year I mentioned that soil was removed from one arable plot and thrown on to the roads. You did not take the trouble to go and inspect that. If you had gone to Location 56A at Bashee you would see what I am talking about. That is at Myuya Bilikana's location. Now I refer to the cottages put along the roadside for the use of the road-builders. It is a good thing to put up such cottages, but what surprises me is that even the families of these road parties also have to live there. The whole family is taken away from a residential area and placed by the roadside. Now the children are placed in a situation where they never leam any of the customs of the people. We are often told that people acquire education better in their youth . Now that these children are removed from their homes and they go to these cottages by the roadside, how are they to leam the customs of their people? What I suggest is that all the vehicles used for the construction of these roads should be used to carry the road parties back to their homes over the weekend, such as is the practice where European road-workers are employed. The hon. Minister admits that there are no regulations in connection with traffic on the roads but that these are being compiled. My question is: Are we merely carrying on this work outside any existing regulations? You will remember that when we came here to be instructed as to the procedure and conduct of the Assembly I mentioned that we have the blind leading the blind. It is obvious that in that case they all fall over each other. How can you run a department without any regulations guiding you? On page 2 of his speech the hon. Minister agrees that there are few experienced clerks in the Department. One is surprised that after all these years we have had self- rule, the position has not been improved. It is apparent therefore that people are not being given the proper training to suit the work they are doing. I would like now to refer to the national road from Baziya via Umtata to Libode. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Time, hon . member. CHIEF J. NTOLA: Mr. Chaimman and hon. members, I rise to support the policy statement of the hon. the Minister of Roads and in doing so I say there should not be the slightest reduction in his salary, because it is quite clear he knows his work. It is all very well to criticize but no work is ever completed in a day. Judging from the number of clerks and promotions both in regard to the clerical grades and drivers, it is evident that these members of the staff know their work. The mere fact that these road units have been transferred from the regional authorities to the Department suggests that the Department has done its work and there is

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no outstanding work as far as the roads are concemed. Fomerly one used to see a lot of gravel heaps on the roads and that state of affairs used to continue for two or three months, but owing to the industry of the present Minister these heaps of gravel have now disappeared. Furthermore, causeways are being constructed and in any case not all the work can be finished in a day. I just wished to make those few remarks, Mr. Chairman.

MR. B.S. RAJUILI: Mr. Chaimman and hon. members, fortunately I was not here when the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works was reading his policy speech and therefore luckily escaped that dreary, nomotonous tone like a grader travelling down an ungravelled road. (Laughter) Looking through his speech I notice here that he makes excuses for "the elimination of certain organisational weaknesses and the stiffening up of a few sections ". On the whole his Vote has been considerably reduced and it looks as if he has been censured by the Finance Department, hence the reduction. In paragraph 5 he mentions that his Department has taken over all roads and it looks as if the hon. the Chief Minister is not aware of the responsibilities of his Departments. I would like the hon. Minister to tell us clearly , when he replies to the debate what the relationship is going to be between the road boards and the region al authorities. This Govemment has a habit of shirking responsibility by referring us to one person or another. Last year they told us to refer to the regional authorities and now he says he is going to have the road boards to take care of this work. There is also a confession here from his Department of their carelessness in taking care of the vehicles. I want to add a little to what has been said by the reasonable members on this side the cream of this Parliament - about the misuse of these vehicles by both the Ministers and some of the party members for their party political organisation . This side of the House drew the attention of the Goverment last year to the misuse of these Govemment vehicles. I am glad that the hon . Minister seems · • THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : But you don't tell us what is transpiring. MR. RAJUILI: The hon. the Minister of Education says it is not usual for people to be told about the misuse of these cars by the Govemment. Fortunately we are able to see you and we shall let the country know about it, as we are doing. Here, after setting up a board the hon . Minister says that all the work is well under control and everything is all right. Now last year we put on kid gloves with the Minister because he had just taken over his work. We had expected that we would get a better policy speech reflecting what has been done this year. There has been no improvement of any road in my region and I am not going to be told I should refer to some other subsidiary body. Of all the main roads there not one has been attended to. I was looking round to see where their former Chief Whip is , but he is not here. Anyway to please you he said all the roads there were in good order. I want to emphasize to the hon. Minister concemed that there is not one good road in the Maluti region and that is a very powerful region. It is a very responsible and important region.

MR. RAJUILI: The hon. Minister is showing me NO some scheme by which he is going to carry on his work there. You should have done that last year, not to be scheming now. We are in a mountainous area there and have heavy rains. The Department must not use ordinary soil there. In our country we have very good gravel areas. (Interjections) I am there every now and again and I am going there again tomorrow. We would like to appeal to your b Department · we have the best gravel for roads in the whole Transkei. I am speaking about Maluti 1! roads now. I am glad to note that the members ofthe m the staff of your Department are taking note of this while you gape at me and do not take down what I am N saying. Coming to bridges and causeways, I am glad is to have learned from some of my constituents that at you have sent a surveyor to go and look at the road i as a between Kenegha and Mafube. e CHIEF MAKOSONKE SIGCAU: Mr. Chairman and he hon. members , in regard to the matter mentioned by l the last speaker I do not see any demarcation as far as this is concerned. As far as I can see I think that the last speaker is just encouraging the hon. thent Minister of Roads because I did not see any gravel- si ling points. It is only a matter of encouragement, I dare say the last speaker has done something goods in encouraging the Minister of Roads and Works, she MR. N.C. NOGCANTSI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I hereby stand to amend Vote 6 and I move:

ha

"That Vote 6 be reduced by R54,500 in respect of sub-head N, item 1 : Purchase of Motor and other vehicles" with the hope that my fellowmen will not surreptitiously and maliciously evade it. There iste this question to be answered by even Dick, Tom and Harry: Why add more cars when you mishandle the present ones? When you look across the Umtata e River you will find that there is a multitude of cars and there is a lot of scraps due to misuse by some of the political Ministers, because they use these cars as their little hotels or bars. (Laughter) Besidest these cars being used for political campaigns and by-elections, you will find that sometimes you wil see these cars standing before the liquor hotels and seashore places and it is always miraculous how these cars have come to stand there the whole day because there are no administrative matters undet discussion in these hotels. (Laughter) THE MINISTER liquor licences?

OF

JUSTICE :

What

about 2de

MR . NOGCANTSI : Furthermore, there are a los of complaints from the road gangs. I have been me by some of them , particularly in my region. They are indiscriminately distributed throughout the region which means that the Department concerned is no bent on economising because road labourers al Tabankulu are sometimes removed to Lusikisiki and, then those of Lusikisiki are taken to work at Taba , nkulu and there is no good reason for doing this haphazard way of handling the road labourers. That causes a lot of ill-feeling amongst them. Further this registration number of XG as was mentioned las year is not at all welcome by some of the raci groups because it is mostly concemed with the Xhosa sentiments.

THE MINISTER OF ROADS: (Inaudible interjection.)

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THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : the Nyasa sentiments. (Laughter)

And not with

ter39

e

MR. NOGCANTSI : It is excluding all the other racial groups, such as Basutos. Further, nothing has been said about the transportation board. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: What has that to do with the Department of Roads and Works?

I MR. NOGCANTSI: Whether I have mistakenly taken it to belong to this Department is a quandary.

KingD he

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : You have · you are at a tangent, my friend.

but he himself hears it regularly in this House . Be that as it may, it is right that we should attend to the questions at hand rather than discuss such matters. I would ask the last speaker to be specific in his advice as to how we can help this Government, rather than always appeal to a Government that usually aids us in these matters. If we cannot ask the Republican Government, to whom shall we refer for assistance and aid? I think this Department which I am now supporting is a Department that comes from the Republican Government. Let us not talk about worthless matters which make it impossible for the workers to get on.

me d

MR. NOGCANTSI : As far as the building of schools is concerned I do not know whether the SUO

Department is aware of such a neglect of duty because in my area I have been met by many complainants about this because people have been inquiring whether the Department is aware of its duty Ca or not. The Ministers themselves have been to Rode, but Rode building is about to be dilapidated. Furthemore, you find that the supervisors, who are always invariably White, are inefficient. They do not observe that the middle of the road should be higher than the sides of the road. The position they occupy they occupy it by virtue of their colour. You will SIE find that sometimes the graders are placing the soft or pulverized soil in the middle of the road. This makes the soil very wet or muddy on a rainy day and those roads then become impassable. If one were to look at my questions they would find that all these years I have been reiterating this macadamisation of roads but unfortunately I have been referring this to the deaf and dumb, or deaf-mutes. (Laughter) Sometimes you will find that certain roads that used to lead to certain missions have now been disused because they are no longer attended to. The roads that are attended to are those which are adjacent to Umtata head office and those leading to the bars. (Laughter) CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : second the amendment.

Mr.

Chairman, I

CHIEF N. SIBI : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to support the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works . I do so because I have found from his speech that good progress has been made in his Department. I regret that often the Opposition members rise to say that a Vote be reduced and I do not know that they ever advance good reasons why such Vote should be reduced. I say that because the last speaker said the Vote should be reduced by R54,500 but he does not say what the balance should be used for after that reduction has been made. (Interjections) If that is your idea, let me tell you that I do not want any more money. What I have is sufficient for my needs. If there is any balance we have plenty of work to spend that money on. We will ask for this money because we know exactly where to go when we need money. Possibly you do not know exactly how the money can be obtained . The hon. Mr. Nogcantsi told the House that in his area the roads are not being maintained and that disappoints me because he constantly refers to the people at his home , but he is evidently always found at Mount Frere so we don't know where his home is. (Laughter) I always gather that from the people who refer to him in this House. I refer to what is usually said about him here. It is disappointing, therefore, because he keeps saying " in my area" but those who know him say he has no home. I do not want to speak behind his back about this

CHIEF D.D.P. NDAMASE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I stand up to support the reduction of this sub-vote because it is necessary that it should be reduced. One looks very carefully at these Votes and they have all been reduced. Sub-votes F and L have been reduced. This sub-vote N which it is proposed should be reduced is the one dealing with motor vehicles and the hon. Minister has told us that 140 of these motors have been damaged in accidents and that each accident has cost about R110. If that is the case all the accidents which will occur during the year will cost about R15,400. I thank the hon. Minister for saying in the last paragraph of his speech that he is going to look into this matter. The surprising thing is that these cars seem to be irreparably damaged as a result of these accidents. How do these accidents occur in such a manner that the cars cannot be repaired? One thing I wish to point out is that the hon. Minister is evidently well aware that there are no technicians available . He mentions that he is trying to get qualified people, but he has not mentioned that he is trying to get mechanics to try and alleviate the position as far as car repairs are concerned. He further tells us that the repairs to cars are mostly dependent on private garages, which shows that those people are doing good business. If we start Government garages , or whatever you like to call them, we should have more technicians. The hon. Minister asks where we shall get these technicians . The Europeans are being apprenticed in Government garages and in private garages. I want to repeat the answer to this question - if Europeans are being apprenticed in commercial garages , why can your Government not apprentice, Africans so that you will get enough trained men? For example, a grader was in our area for weeks without doing any work. I do not know whether during that time you were still looking for mechanics to repair it. There are piles of gravel in our area, but the road gangs are not attending to it. We ask the hon. Minister to put these things in order. CHIEF S.M. MOSHESH : Mr. Chairman and hon. members , I rise to support the Government side in support of the policy speech of the hon. the Minister of Roads and Works. He elaborated fully on his speech, so much so that all the Opposition members understood it as well as the members of the Government side. That is what the Opposition specially requires in order to understand fully how the Government is going to carry out its policy. The Government side is quite satisfied with the report of the hon. Minister and I also am able to say that the Opposition is likewise satisfied because they do not say where they find fault with the Minister's speech. Because they are the Opposition they are always rising to move that the Vote be reduced , particularly in respect of the Minister's salary . We know that if they

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were running the Government they would have their own Ministers. What they suggest should be the salary of the Minister is not what we of the Government side would like. What we would like is what is shown here. So, too, with the money used to buy vehicles in order to help the Government do its work. As regards Vote 6, I noted carefully what they said about these vehicles. Indeed they spoke very well in favour on their side , for it is not everyone on our side who possesses a car and as far as the disrepair of the roads is concerned , those roads are used as much by the Goverment vehicles. To put a road in good repair is like a turning wheel, which keeps turning but never reaches its destination. We of the Government side usually put it to you that the Vote before us is going to be used to recondition the roads and not as you think, as representatives of the people. (Interjections) I am a Mosuto and do not speak a language which does not belong to me, like some of you speak English. Further I am not greyhaired yet. Mr. Chairman , I shall pass on the remaining few minutes which are due to me to the Opposition members to use so that they can speak some more of the nonsense they usually speak. I

MR. LUWACA: He even went on to say: "I am not aware of any consultation because as far as ! know the Transkei is still part of the Republic and as such I think the Republican Government is free to Ro exercise whatever right it wants in this land. " He should come to this side because he says this is part of the Republic. To go further, Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister of Roads drew a gloomy picture of accidents and he goes on to make other gloomy pictures by agreeing with his Cabinet that there should be so many reductions in his sub-heads , so rents and even electricity have been reduced and ad really electricity is even needed in these small a villages. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Just speak about General Transport. You are out of the subject.

have every faith that the regional authority of Emboland will put the roads in their area in good repair.

MR. LUWACA: So coming to what the hon.se of Minister says, Mr. Chairman, - sub-head G, Roads and Bridges · well, I hope the hon. Minister will not say that is not general transport. There is now a war le cry about bad roads all over the country just because there is not enough transport, and there has been a complaint about bridges and you have to have transport to build bridges.

MR. L.A. LUWACA: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I move as an amendment:

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : Will transport repair bridges?

MR. LUWACA: Yes, you have to have transport sta to transport materials don't you know that? He has h been allowed so many reductions that his Vote will be short of money so that he will have no transport s now for his roads. (Interjections)

17

Mr. Chairman , the reason I say this Vote should be reduced is because I understand that last year it was R60,000 .

DOR &

"That Vote 6 be reduced by R20,000 in respect ' of sub-head B, item 3, General Transport. ""

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order, please.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You are lost. It is this year that it was R60,000. Last year it was more.

THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: You gave that amendment under a misapprehension and therefore you can sit down. MR. LUWACA: I will just quote an instance where this Department of Roads and Works, just half a mile from my place , has taken all the grounds right away from the fence and that fence is for another Departthat of the Department of Agriculture. As a ment result the cattle just go over the fence because there are heaps of ground in between and the cattle just walk over and then they are impounded for trespassing. I would really likethe hon. the Minister of Roads and Works to see the mistake that has been made by his Department. He can go now and I will show it to him. It is just gross carelessness on the part of his Department. In the meantime the people are paying heavy sums for cattle that just jump over the fence and that tends to weaken the rehabilitation scheme when they have to go and pay for their cattle , because the people do not realise the difference between one department and another. To go on, I remember now that last year the hon. the Minister of Roads, when asked by the hon . Chief S.S. Majeke to explain about certain roads, said he could not explain them. He went on to say among other things when the hon. member asked the Minister if the strategic roads had been asked for from the Republican Goverment by the Transkei Government that he did not know. THE

CHIEF MINISTER:

Come to the Vote.

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MR. LUWACA: Mr. Chairman, to go back to this now, it may be that the hon. the Minister of Roads takes this just as a joke, so now he will have to send transport to go and remove that soil that has been heaped against the fence so that the people will not refuse to adopt the rehabilitation scheme. CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE: I second the amendment, Mr. Chairman.

d

MR. LUWACA: Yes. Anyway this Vote under General Transport . . .

5200

good

CHIEF J. DUMALISILE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I rise up to endorse the truth in regard to CO the policy statement of the hon. the Minister of Roads. It is obvious that to some members of the Opposition the roads are equal to men, whereas roads are really controlled by the Almighty. (Laughter) A road is repaired today and tomorrow God sends the rain. The surface of the road is washed away. No blame can be attached to the Prime Minister of Roads and Works. (Laughter) His policy statement is very sound. 'See no room for criticism even as far as his salary is concerned. The one speaker from the Opposition suggested that the hon. Minister should go and crush the stones in the roads. I wonder how a Minister can be expected to go and work on the roads when there are enough labourers. (Laughter) He forgets to speak about boys who roll stones on to the road. There has been a complaint about the action of these boys for some time now but the hon. member places the blame at the door of the Minister. For a long time you have been envying him his salary. He shall get his entire salary because he has done his work well, as can be seen from his speech. CHIEF S.S. MAJEKE : Mr. Chairman and hon. members, I am very pleased that I am the last speaker

WEDNESDAY, 18TH MAY, 1966 .

speak I hope the Chairman will give me time to Rep to and the last minute, and then we will close the ate. I want to take off my hat to the hon. the ister of Roads for putting his policy so clearly connection with his Department. He did not try hide anything even if it was a bad thing. I will refore not be too severe on him. If he had not done ket we would have attacked him severely because have seen what is happening, especially as far as motor-cars are concerned. He further stated that himself and his Department were busy considering " causes of all the damage. We want it to be clear it we are accepting that whole-heartedly on this te. We would like him in his policy speech next sar to tell us whether he found the causes of this

The Assembly resumed at 11 a.m.

Prayers were read. The minutes of the previous day were taken as read and confirmed .

TRANSKEI APPROPRIATION BILL : COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , I move that the House sits in committee of supply. THE MINISTER Chairman.

image. One can see a great deal of damage to the ì cars in the local garages. I would like the hon. Minister of Roads to take into consideration that Transkei is a small area and most of the roads re are built and maintained by the Republican svernment, leaving just a few to be repaired by his partment. For that reason the roads maintained by is Department should be in better condition than base worked by the Republican Government, but that not so and some of the members here mentioned

at the few roads which have to be maintained by Is Department are not as good as they should be. ɔu will find that the roads which we maintain and hich we think are the main roads are in such bad nditions that the cars are damaged when they travel wer them. The road from Sulenkama to Katkop, which is a main road connecting Qumbu to Mount Fletcher, in a bad state of repair and there is another road hich crosses from Qanqu to Mount Frere which is ery rough. Those are the roads which are maintained y this Department and which carry heavy buses. here is another road through Sulenkama, crossing te Tsitsa bridge to Mount Fletcher, which is also a Fery bad road. Then the road from Tsitsa bridge hich goes to Tabase and Western Pondoland is very arrow. That road requires road signs because it is o narrow and there are many bends . There should be igns to show the drivers when to slow down. It was - mentioned last year that we could get a lot of money rom tourists if the road leading to the Tsitsa Falls could be repaired. That road is short and if it could e put in good condition it would make the Transkei a very important place. You would be visited by people from overseas. It only goes through Lalini and Lotana and then comes to the Falls . This is a piece of advice to you , Mr. Minister, that if you repair that road you would get a lot of money from tourists. I will say nothing about the road leading from Qumbu to Sulenkama because it is under repair. If you could repair the roads as you have repaired that one we will consider re-appointing you to your position. (Laughter) Lastly, I wish to say that the grants to tribal authorities for minor roads should not lapse . My chiefs and secretaries do not know that the money has lapsed and they don't know whether they should apply for more. It is known only to you. As soon as the time has expired for such grants , please let the magistrate know.

The debate was adjourned.

House Resumed The Deputy Chairman reported progress.

The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Wednesday, 18th May, 1966.

OF

ROADS: I

second,

Mr.

Agreed to. House in Committee . The debate on Vote 6 , Department of Roads , was resumed .

MR. B.S. RAJUILI : Mr. Chairman members , I move an amendment :

and hon.

"That Vote 6 " B" be reduced by R8,000 in respect of sub-head J." In doing so, Mr. Chairman , I am going to do something more unusual than has ever been done by me in this Assembly and that is to associate myself with the remarks by my colleague here in very sincerely congratulating the hon. the Minister of Roads for a very fine policy speech. Perhaps this is the second Department that impresses this very able Opposition. It is not very easy for this conglomeration of very incapable Ministers to impress such an able Opposition as this one here . Last year and the year before last , after the hon. the Minister of the Interior had given his policy speech , I did make that remark very sincerely and in remarking I further said we will not call upon the Republican Government to withdraw the loaned Secretaries if they would work like the Secretary of the Interior. With such a Department we cannot, as the Department of Education and the Chief Minister, for instance. I respect the Chief Minister's Secretary , but I do not respect the hon. the Chief Minister. (Laughter) GOVERNMENT MEMBERS: Come to the amendment. MR. RAJUILI : He keeps saying " Come to the amendment." I am not dealing with monkeys in the forest now ·- I am dealing with something serious. Before I come to this I would like to finish up my remarks about the roads in the Maluti region. There is this road from Matatiele to Donald Drift and Metfontein in fact it is the main road in that area and a very busy road. I am a layman in regard to these roads but I have travelled so much throughout the Republic that none of these Ministers , despite the invitations given by the Republican Government in helicopting them to the Northern Transvaal , have seen as many roads as I have of various kinds , and in all my laity I always wonder why it is that in our country some such things as we have seen cannot be done to improve our roads. If that road could only be lifted up as we have seen done in other places. There is a system of lifting up a road one and a half feet, for instance , and putting slate shale over it.

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It is far from town to where it deviates to Donald Drift and further to the bridge over the Kenegha River and the hon. the Minister of Roads should be interested because of the bluff that he put up a school in that area and the only about five yards from that school , for five miles the road is bad and for

is going to road passes From there , another five

miles it is quite bad. That is ten miles , and then after that it is such a thing as I do not know . I have never seen such a road as you have to go up in low gear all the time and at that spot there was an accident and instead of carrying on with my successful election campaign I collected people from the accident in the donga and took them to the hospital some 26 miles away. I remarked that we in the Maluti region would not like to be treated as a stepchild by this irresponsible Government. We are not a stepchild and we were assured we would be treated as a first-born. Now for over 30 years that road has never been anything better than what it is now. THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Your time is expiring before you tell us why sub-vote J should be reduced. MR. RAJUILI : I have finished that part now. Now the road to Queen's Mercy takes about nine miles unnecessarily and it is very bad until you are about one and a half miles from the Great Place. Let me just say I am looking at a sketch which I can give the hon. Minister. All the roads sketched are very bad.

THE

MINISTER

OF

JUSTICE : We

are

not

interested in your sketches. Tell us about sub-head J. MR. RAJUILI : Now, Sir, to come to my amendment which I know I shall be able to put through in three minutes, under B.2, Motor Transport, you will notice that the whole Vote has been reduced tremendously except perhaps for sub-section B.2. GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : That has nothing to do with your amendment . You should be talking about J. MR. RAJUILI: I am requesting that Vote B be reduced by R8,000 in respect of sub-head J. You know there is an expression in Afrikaans that will put them right, and that is "Sies". That is all I can say. Now under J (g) there is an estimation of R5,000. If that could be increased by that reduction I have suggested, rather than have to wait a couple of years for that estimated thing I think that would make the Matatiele people feel better, instead of saying they are putting it up in three or four years . I think it would satisfy them if that could be adjusted. MR. N. JAFTA: Mr. amendment.

Chairman , I second the

MR. A. MFEBE: Mr. Chairman and hon. members, this policy speech that is before us here passes judgement on us. The proof thereof is that nothing is being said about it just now. We take our hats off to the hon . the Minister of Roads and Works for having compiled such a good policy speech. He has carried out his duties in a manner of which we can proud. Whenever anyone does anything praiseworthy he never gets the praise that is his due. The things which have been mentioned in this House are all things which should have been discussed in the regional authority meetings. They are unnecessary in this House , but whenever a person finds himself devoid of anything worth saying he turns to family

theho matters . Such matters should be spoken of among i the members of the family at home. Apparently some of the members whose cars have stuck on the roa or have bumped into stones want the Ministers to go along and help pull their cars out. It reminds me to of one outstanding member · the late Saul Mabude 1Say who said it was a strange thing among the Bant people that a Bantu often contradicted himself. I seems to be a common feature among these hon members here. One moment they praise something th and the next moment they disapprove . Mr. Chairman - glove I do not know whether you are aware that there is nothing being discussed now. We are merely tryin to pass the remaining few minutes. I do not wan to puzzle my head by trying to follow all the non is 20 sensical things that have been said this moming (Laughter) Indeed we have come to a time when weiswe a ought not to play about with these matters but concen and ourselves with trying to achieve something. (Inter jections) THE

DEPUTY

CHAIRMAN :

Order,

& the please the

MR. MFEBE: Mr. Chairman , I stand in suppor of this Vote as it appears on the paper. Some people think we have come here to waste time and play. do not take any notice of those people.

MR . N. JAFTA: Mr. Chairman and hon. mem bers, I rise to second the amendment to the effect that sub-vote B be reduced and the amount by which , it is reduced should be allocated to the school in Matatiele. Much has been said about this Vote and I will only say a few words. Mention has been made of bad roads. I would like to refer to the hon. the Minister of Roads and also to the hon. the Chie Minister, to remind them of a visit they paid to our area when they addressed a public meeting there and referred to the rather bad state of the roads in that area and promised that it would be attended to. They saw that the roads were very bad and fulf of potholes. I would like them to respect their own opinion in this matter. Reference was made to the rather poor condition of vehicles in this Department, and it was stated that efforts would be made to find out the cause for this wastage. I maintain that among other things drunkenness is one of the causes of this damage. I would like some attention to be given to that matter. Reference was also made to the relief fund which was used to help the poor and it was estimated that 2,000 people had been assisted from this fund. There is something we would like to refer to in this connection. A group who were carrying out this duty were remunerated at the rate of 25 cents a day. What surprises us is that some of these people themselves need aid. I can bear witness to the fact that one of the people used for this work had his whole side paralysed and ir that condition he tried by means of a spade to load soil on to a truck. It was difficult for him to put the soil into the truck and the foreman dismissed him.

It was not made clear to those people that that help was given to them free, and not that they in tum should give a certain amount of work. I am merely trying to explain some of the irregularities in this connection . The hon . Minister referred to heavy rollers that are used to make the road surface smooth

We are grateful for these. Indeed his policy speech reveals that there is much for which we must be

grateful, but nevertheless there are things that we must point out which need attention . We should like to know more about the connection between the road board and the region. Will the road board now be transformed and made into a region , or vice versa

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Would the hon. Minister please make this clear in is reply. With those words I support the amendment.

it the

THE MINISTER OF ROADS AND WORKS: Mr. Chairman and hon. members of the Assembly, in eplying to the debate on the Road Vote I would ike to say this: In the first place I want to thank diche hon. members for their constructive approach o the debate on the Roads Vote. When I saw the umber of amendments I was frightened and prepared wenyself for the worst. In my defence I cast aside the smaller gloves and put on the heavier ones , (Laughaer) but when I saw the hon. members moderating ཟ ་ heir attacks I threw away the gloves altogether. wish the hon. members to know that the Department of Roads and Works is there for the service of the a Transkei and its people. When we tackle our problems we do so with an open mind. There are no corners and there is no favouritism in the Department. It should be understood that I am not soliciting any special consideration but am merely stating the facts as they are. In my speech I stated that this was not the end of the road but the beginning. As you know, we became an authority on 1st April, 1966- that is, in the legal sense. I am aware of the shortcomings of· our works section and that is more or less due to the shortage of trained personnel. In this regard I am hesitant on the importation of trained 202 technical staff. This refers to the statement made by the hon. member for Qaukeni , Mr. Nota, in his complaint about the building of schools . He also complained about the amount of money paid for rents . This is in connection with the rentals paid for schools from the Churches , like Clarkebury and Shawbury and the premises used as offices for agricultural staffs , stock inspectors and other personnel. The hon. member, Miss Twetwa , spoke about bridges over the Inxu , Tsitsa and Gqukunqa rivers and the road past Sulenkama where a deviation was being asked for. A survey was made at the hospital and tests of the low-lying ground below the hospital are being made. Regarding the bridges the matter will receive attention but the usual procedure is for tribal authorities to make these requests through their regional authorities to the Department. I may add that the policy of the Department is to give priority to bridges across rivers where construction work is being done, and not on a sectional or a regional basis . The hon. Mr. Majija complained about the bridges being very low on some roads in the Engcobo district, and mentioned the road between Engcobo and Gqaga being in disrepair and also the road to Mnyolo. All these matters are not neglected . Attention is given to the most deserving cases. Inspectors and senior roads foremen have their programmes to execute. In most of these things we have to exercise patience. The hon. member for Maluti , Mr. B.S. Rajuili referred to reduced funds. It is essential that budgeting by the Department be commensurate with the potential output , so there would be no point in budgeting for R16 million when you would be able to carry out a project with about R3 million. It is not correct for the hon. member to say all roads in the Maluti region are hopeless . Maintenance of the roads is being done regularly and a construction unit is at present in that region . I want to thank the hon. member for Maluti for his constructive address this morning. I can assure him that some of these things will receive attention. His statements have been supported by the hon. the Minister of the Interior that some of the roads need repairing. With reference to the hon. Mr. Nogcantsi , who complained that the cars were being used as hotels and for political purposes, I reckon that this is an over- state-

ment. The Department has not condoned the use of liquor by any of its employees and anybody who does that runs the risk of being dismissed. With reference to the misuse of cars for political purposes , his statement is not correct. Official cars are used for Government services - disseminating information , official public gatherings , Departmental undertakings of various kinds . The placing of workers from one district to another is done for the convenience of the workers themselves. For instance , if a gang is moved from one district to another (say from Tabankulu to Flagstaff) and the worker still wants to continue it is natural for him to move with the unit . With reference to Chief D.D.P. Ndamase complaining about the roads in the Nyanda region , I would like to inform him that most of the roads in the Nyanda region are in a good state of repair. For instance, the road from Sebeni-Nomadola-Ntibani has been maintained in good repair; and the road from LibodeNkanga-Zibungu is also in good repair. A road construction repair unit is busy at the moment at Tombo, Isilimela, Qandu and Old Bunting road. With reference to the hon . Chief Majeke , I must thank him for his very constructive approach in his remarks , and also point out that the provincial administration has only 900 miles to look after whereas we have 1,800 miles of road to look after. They had all the money they wanted; they had all the machinery; they had all the personnel . What have we in comparison with them? The road which the hon. Chief complains about that is, from Qumbu to Katkop · is maintained in a trafficable condition but the heavy buses and lorries destroy the surface quickly after the rains and the road has been graded several times during the year. With reference to Tsitsa Bridge via Shawbury to Nyanda, I presume it will be attended to according to the programme . It is for tribal authorities themselves to study the regulations and make requests timeously. With regard to the matter raised by the hon. member for Emboland, Mr. N. Jafta, when he talks about road boards and regional authorities , I want to explain to him that the Road Act provides that the region will act as a road board. Again , Mr. Chairman , I want to thank the hon . members very much for their constructive approach to the Vote and I would ask them to pass the Vote as it is. I move accordingly , Mr. Chairman . THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR: I second , Mr. Chairman .

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Hon. paramount chiefs and hon . members , it has been moved by the hon. Mr. K.G. Nota " That Vote 6 be reduced by R2,600 in respect of sub-head A, item Minister's Salary" . I shall now put the question. The amendment was lost by 30 votes to 52. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : There is an amendment by the hon . Mr. J.B. Nkosiyane. As he is not here it falls away .

:

The amendment by the hon. Mr. N.C. Nogcantsi "That Vote 6 be reduced by R54,500 in respect of sub-head N , item 1 : Purchase of Motor and other Vehicles " was put and lost by 30 votes to 52 . The amendment by Mr. L.A. Luwaca " That Vote 6 be reduced by R20,000 in respect of sub-head B , item 3, General Transport" was put and lost by 31 votes to 52.

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The amendment by the hon . Mr. B.S. Rajuili

"That Vote 6 "b" be reduced by R8,000 in respect of " " was put and lost by 31 votes to 54.

The whole Bill put and agreed to. House Resumed .

The sum of R3.205,000 under Vote 6, Department of Roads and Works , was passed to stand part of the schedule. The total amount of R16,568,000 was passed to stand part of the Bill. Clauses 1 , 2, 3 and 4 of the Appropriation Bill were passed to stand part of the Bill.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Mr. Chairman, I wish to report that the Transkei Appropriation Bill has been approved by the House without amendment. THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr. Chairman, the third reading of the Bill will be on Monday next week.

The Assembly adjourned until 11 a.m. on Monday, 23rd May, 1966 .