Second Lebowa Legislative Assembly. Volume 11. Part 2. Verbatim report of the 1977 session: 19 April — 6 May

Table of contents :
Front Cover
if one considers that only 21 out of 425 posts ...
1977 : TUESDAY 29TH MARCH. ...
The second announcement, Mr Speaker, Sir, is ...
It is my submission, Mr Speaker, Sir, ...
1977 : WEDNESDAY, THE 30TH MARCH. ...
1977 THURSDAY THE 31ST MARCH. ...
1977: MONDAY APRIL THE 4TH. ...
• ...
65 ...
90 ...
1977: WEDNESDAY THE 13TH APRIL. ...
1977: THURSDAY THE 14TH APRIL. ...
THE SPEAKER: ...
FRIDAY 15TH APRIL 1977. ...
MR M.W. KGATLA: Mr Speaker, I am going ...
that the Je polic-ple is followed ...
LEBOWA LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY: ...
Phasha ...
with your consent. ...
TUESDAY 1977: APRIL THE 20TH. ...
COMMITTEE STAGE. ...
dangerous to the people of Kgoŝi Molepo and to our ...
You told me that you were going to do something ...
Now I do not want him to be sad. ...
The road passes also a big river called Mobaba. ...
AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Sit down! ...
We also requested for streets in our villages. People ...
The people bringing mealiemeal have no roads leading into the ...
How many carpenters have left on their own or have ...
THE CHAIRMAN: Order honourable member how is that ...
MR. GODFREY SEKHUKHUNE: ...
Now, I want to know the kind of co...
KGOĜI L.L. NTWAMPE: Mr. Chairman, through you to ...
On the whole it looks a fine road, but ...
Now when we look at our book on page 17...
Are we then citizens of this country? ...
1977: FRIDAY THE 22ND APRIL. ...
THE SPEAKER: We will proceed with questions and ...
I have not heard one member appreciating the electrification ...
THE FIFTH SESSION OF THE SECOND LEBOWA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY ...
I want to end by saying that our motion of ...
because the contractor has to pay income tax every year...
And I don't think the Tender Board would have any ...
are getting them. If they get these, why ...
They are mad, they must go home. ...
sufficient to subsidize 238 classrooms only. In 1976 there ...
THE SPEAKER: Did you stand on a point of ...
DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Order! hon. members ...
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! This House will ...
It shows me that the Bantwane tribe is going to ...
Because our education system is till part and parcel of ...
MR. A.S. MAHLANGU: I was on the question ...
The school is only running short of benches, teachers...
This is the reply to your question and the circulation ...
In our Department we have already planned for two extra ...
THE CHAIRMAN: Honourable member, I will give you ...
Those children are accommodated at Modjadji and C. N. Phatudi ...
KGOŝI L.L. NTWAMPE: Point of order Mr. Chairman. ...
MR. E.D. MABOT JA: The Department of Education ...
Do these people pay rent on their occupation of these ...
I am afraid Mr. Chairman. We will have to ...
This is very unfair in the part of the chair...
Mr. Chairman, I realised from the honourable the Minister ...
After my speech last year, this House agreed upon ...
If I have not answered them all, he will ...
360 ...
361 ...
362 ...
THE CHIEF MINISTER: Mr Speaker and hon. members...
are quoting the examples that the governments have done similar ...
COMMITTEE STAGE. ...
The committee members are supposed to terminate their duties after ...
corporal punishment etc. Other strikes are detrimentally oppo- ...
1977: WEDNESDAY MAY THE 4TH. ...
Unclassified Workmen III ...
VOTE 5: ...
money and get more and double as he has promised ...
One other matter I would like to mention is in ...
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES; Honourable members, be ...
1 ...
MR. I.M. MODJADJI: I second the motion. ...
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. members it is our privilege ...
time of the House. As we can see everything...
There is a road there at Bushbuckridge towards Rounie, ...
LEBOWA LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY: ...
Phasha ...

Citation preview

ли 2 / Wetgewende

vergater ,

SECOND

LEBOWA

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

VOLUME 11

PART 2

3

VERBATIM REPORT versla

verstag OF THE

1977

SESSION

19 APRIL -

6 MAY 1977

The ASTOR LINGAY

LEBOWA LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY :

1977

COMMISSIONER - GENERAL FOR THE NORTH SOTHO NATIONAL UNIT :

DR .

R.

MCLACHLAN

MEMBERS OF THE CABINET :

Chief Minister and of Finance Minister for the Interior Minister of Justice Minister of Education Minister of Works Minister of Agriculture and Forestry Minister of Health

Dr. C.N. Phatudi Mr. M.S. Mamiane Kgoši Z.T. Seleka Mr. I.K. Moloko Kgoši L.S. Matlala Kgoši B.L. Malatji Kgosi M. M. Marishane

OFFICE BEARERS :

Kgoši M.M. Matlala

¦

Speaker of the Legislative Assembly

Deputy Speaker and Chairman of Committees

Mr. M.T.D. Leboho

Secretary

Mr. H.H. Ramokgopa

Assistant Secretary

Mr. M.M. Tsebane .

MEMBERS

Bopape Chiloane

M.T.

Chuene

:

Kgoŝi M.E.

Mamiane

M.S.

Mampane

Kgoŝi K.

Mampuru Maraba

N.R.

Marishane

Kgoŝi M.

Maroga Maserumule

Kgoŝi S.T.

Kgoŝigadi T. Kgoŝi M. Kgoŝi T.

Digashu

Kgoŝigadi R.K. S.L.

Dikgale

Kgoŝi E.R.

Dinkwanyane Kekana

Kgoŝigadi V.T. Kgoŝi A.B. P.L.

:

:

Mashashane

M.W.

:

Mashego

Kgoŝi Tyson S.P.

:

Kwakwa

Mashegoane Mashiane

N.S.

Langa

Kgoŝi M.H.

:

Langa Leboho

S.M.

:

Mashung Mathabatha

Kgoŝi J. Kgoŝi M.M.

M.T.D.

:

Mathebe

Kgoŝi G.T.

Kgoŝigadi J. Kgoŝi P.M.

:

Mathebe

M.G.

Ledwaba

:

Mathole

L.G.

Lekalakala

Kgoŝi K.M.

:

Matlala

Kgoŝi B.K.

Leshabane

H.M.

:

Matlala

Kgoŝi H.T.

Mabooe

:

Matlala

Kgoŝi L.S.

Mabotja

Kgoŝi Tseke E.D.

:

Matlala

Madisha

E.C.

:

Modjadji

Kgoŝi M.M. H.M.

Madisha

L.M.

:

Modjadji

M.I.

Mahlangu

Kgoŝi J. S.A.

: :

Modjadji

S.D.

Mogashoa

Kgoŝi M.E.

Kgoŝigadi Jane

: :

Mogoboya Monlala

Kgoŝi M.F.

Konŝi E.S. R.M.

:

Mohlala

M.J.

Makola

T.P.

Kgoŝi Abner Kgoŝi Brown

: :

Molepo

Malatji

Moloko

Kgoŝi A.S. I.K.

:

Moloto

Kgoŝi K.E.

Kekana Kgatla Kibi

Ledwaba

Mahlangu Mahlo Maja Makgato

Malatji Malebana

:

: : :

:

Kgoŝi A.S.

Kgoŝi M.J.

Kyoŝi M.G.

1.1 .

:

Moloto

M.

:

Mothapo

S.S.

Maloma

Kgoŝi M. E.M.

:

Mamabolo

Kgoŝi J.M.

::

Mothapo Mothiba

L.C.

Mamabolo

Kgoŝigadi M.S. Kgoŝi J.K.

::

Nchabeleng

Kgoŝi J.K.

: :

Kgoŝi P. S.H.

Kgoŝi L.L. Kgoŝi E.s

Malekane

Mamaila

Mametja

Kgoŝi M.R. M.F.

:

Nkadimeng Nkadimeng Nkoane

Mametja

M.J.

:

Ntwampe

Mametja

Kgoŝi M.S.

:

Phaahla

Mamaila

Kgoŝi T.J.

D.J.

- : i-

Phasha Phasha

Kgoŝi K.P. M.J.

Phasha Phatudi

Kgoŝi P.S. Dr. C.N.

Ramokgopa

Kgoŝi G.

Rammupudu Ramusi

Kgoŝi B.- . M.C.

Ratale

M.J.

Riba

Kgoŝi M.2 .

Sekgopo

Kgoŝi P. M.Gad

Sekhukhune Sekhukhune

M.Godfrey

Seopela Seleka

Kgoŝi K.F.

Shongoane Taueatsoala

Kgoŝi P.S.

Thulare Tlaka

Kgoŝi Phethedi T.S.

Kgoŝi Z.T.

Kgoŝi B.D.

(i )

INDEX 1977 TUESDAY APRIL 19TH

Commencement /Adoption of the minutes /Minister of Interior replies questions . The Minister of Interior continues to answer questions Notice of a motion to amend the number of members to constitute a quorum in the House . Committee Stage on the Vote of the Minister of Interior

PAGE

176 177-198

199-200 201-204

1977 WEDNESDAY APRIL 20TH

Commencement/Adoption of the minutes/ Announcement by the Chief Minister in regard to the position of the boundary disputes . Debate on the announcement by the Chief Minister/Whips explain procedure concerning absentees/Notices of motions Chief Minister reacts on the motion of Payment and Privileges of members of the Legislative Assembly Committee Stage ; Lebowa Appropriation Bill 1977 continues : Minister of Interior answers questions Debate on the BENBO report .

205-206 207-208 209 210-222 223-230

1977 THURSDAY APRIL 21ST

Commencement / Adoption of the minutes/Notice of motions Committee Stage on the Lebowa Appropriation Bill 1977 continues The Minister of Works reads his Policy and Budget Speech Committee Stage on the Policy and Budget Speech of the Minister of Works

231 232-237 238-266

1977 FRIDAY APRIL 22ND

Commencement Adoption of the minutes/Announcements Chief Minister replies questions The Minister of Works answers questions

267 268-273 274-277

1977 MONDAY APRIL 25TH

Commencement / Adoption of the minutes/Announcements/ Debates on motions Mr. S.P. Kwakwa moves a motion on contracts . Motion on contracts is debated Committee Stage : Minister of Works continues to reply questions Minister of Education gives his Policy and Budget Speech Debate on the Budget and Policy Speech of Education

278-280 281 282-283 284-289 290-297 298-302

( ii)

1977 THURSDAY APRIL 27TH

PAGE

Commencement/ Adoption of minutes/Obituaries/Announcements Debate on the boundary disputes with Mapoch

303-304 305-328

1977 FRIDAY APRIL 28TH

Commencement /Adoption of the minutes/Announcements The Minister of Works , the Chief Minister and the Minister of Education reply questions

329 330-338

1977 MONDAY MAY 2ND

Commencement/Adoption of the minutes/ Announcements Notices of motions Committee Stage : Lebowa Appropriation Bill 1977 - Vote Education

339-340

341-363

1977 TUESDAY MAY 3RD

Commencement /Adoption of the minutes/ Chief Minister reacts on the question of boundary disputes with Mapoch Debate on the boundary disputes with Mapoch continues Committee Stage : Lebowa Appropriation Bill 1977 - Vote on Education continues

364-367 368-378 379-387

1977 WEDNESDAY MAY 4TH

Commencement /Adoption of the minutes /The Commissioner - General explains Rules of Procedure to the House/Announcements . Notices of motions The Minister of Agriculture gives his Policy and Budget Speech Debate on the Principles and merits of the Policy Speech of Agriculture

388-389 390

391-399

400-411

1977 THURSDAY MAY 5TH

Commencement /Adoption of the minutes /Announcements Tabling report of the Sessional Committee/Notices of BillsUnauthorised Expenditure 1975/76 /Committee Stage : Lebowa Appropriation Bill : Debate on Agriculture continues . The Minister of Justice reads his Policy and Budget Speech Debate on Minister of Justice's Policy Speech

412

413-426 427-430 431-439

1977 FRIDAY MAY 6TH

Commencement /Adoption of the minutes/Committee Stage on the Speech of the Minister of Justice

440-446

176

1977 :

TUESDAY

APRIL

THE

19TH

The sitting commences at 10h05 . The Speaker reads a prayer . Mr. A.S. Mahlangu seconded by Mr. H.M. Leshabane moved the adoption of the minutes . QUESTION

TIME :

MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Speaker I have four questions here to answer to the hon . member for Bolobedu . Mr. M.W. Kgatla who wanted to know why we raised a loan of R1million for housing and not more than this . I want to point out , Mr. Speaker , that the loan was raised by the Department of Finance and R1million was allocated to my Department for housing . Although the Rimillion is insufficient I am nevertheless grateful to the Department of Finance because this is the largest amount of money set aside for housing in every year in Lebowa . The second question was how many houses do we hope to erect? As we know that the Department of Interior has to depend on the Department of Works , to have these houses erected , I will have to liaison with the Department of Works before I could give a reply to this question . And the reply will be made available to the hon . member in due course . Mr. Speaker , Sir , the third question was why we go overseas for the investments and not remain in South Africa? There is an expression in Sotho that says if you don't travel , you'll marry your own sister . But Mr. Speaker , Sir , that was not the reason for going overseas . We went overseas because we were seriously attracting investors in Lebowa .

MR . M.W. KGATLA : I think the Minister misunderstood me . I have never asked a question to the effect that why did you go to overseas for investments . I said why did you go to overseas to get experts in mining to come and survey the potential minerals of Lebowa , telecommunications of Lebowa whilst we are having experts right in South Africa ? Thank you . MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Thank you very much for the correction . Mr. Speaker because I was going to tell the House that although we go overseas to attract mining houses , we nevertheless began at home and we spent very much on local mining houses to get contract overseas . Mr. Speaker I could say that we have been at a University and we did see a Professor of Economic Geology and they have given us that they have reports about work done prospectively in Lebowa . And Bantu Mining Corporation have results that will be very interesting to Lebowa . But satellite sensing as far as minerals andminerology is a new technique . I am not a geologist myself . Mr. Speaker but I was make to understand that through satellites that fly in the skies there is a more accurate way of establishing the type of mineral and into what viable quantity . There are certain questions in mining that you will only be able to reply if you have a thorough investigation as done by Satellite Sensing .

177

And , Mr. Speaker , Sir I want to put it to the House that once you have a report by an international known Satelite Sensing Organization like Dames and Moore of U.8.A. you'll have no trouble in convincing people all over the world that ainerals do exist in Lebowa and they are available . They will not only be useful to overseas mining houses but even our South African mining houses will benefit from it . I don't just want to talk about the matter of other people alone and mining houses for South Africa also inquire from there . It says you Dames and Moore how do you view this? But they don't inquire about the land of Lebowa they just inquire about theirs and neglect ours . They say we make you of old techniques for investigation . We should be satisfied by it either it is due to the fact that we are Black I don't know . That is my suspicion , Mr. Speaker . About the number of houses we are going to put up at the different places I have replied to this question . But I want to make a correction that when I opened the bottle store at Ga - Kgapane , I did not promise people that all the houses they required would be erected , In fact , I did appeal to them as I do now to the people of Lebowa to consider erecting their own homes because no government in the world can house the whole nation . I don't know this is done in the communist states but this should also serve to indicate that I am not treating the nation into communion because I still want people to do things for themselves. Now the question asked by the Hon . Mr. Kekana . He wants to know who are the L.D.C. , where do they come from? What are they all about? I would like humbly to suggest that I replied this question last year.

MR . L.C. MOTHIBA : Mr. Speaker , I was just wondering seeing that the different portfolios of the different Minister are dealt with under the Committee Stage , that the questions should be answered in committee because just now we will get one member who wants to follow up . And according to the Rules of Procedure it is said every portfolio will be considered under committee . And I take it , Mr. Speaker , this is just an ordinary questioning time for any type of question . But these are questions of a particular department which originated from his policy speech under committee . Because if the Minister now stops then it means the other members must continue to ask questions . And that should be done under Committee Stage . That is why Mr. Speaker I am wondering whether we should'nt bring it under Committee Stage . a questioning In any case the discretion is with you , because it day for any other question apart from the questions of the particular Department . Mr. Speaker Sir . Mr. Speaker I believe that according to the question time here , it would be the duty of the Minister that has not finished , that is the Hon . Chief Minister that has not finished answering the previous questions who will answer at this time . But the Hon . Minister of Interior would wait until the Committee Stage of Lebowa Appropriation Bill . Thus when he comes up with his anwers . It may not be the Hon . Chief Minister but one of the hon . members might have directed a question to one of the Ministers that has not yet come up to give his policy speech but have to give answers during question time . So I am of the impression that the time of questions was not in fact directed to the Hon . the Minister of Interior . Thank you Mr. Speaker .

178

THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Mr. Speaker Sir , through you could I request the House allows me to continue with the question? THE SPEAKER : I agree . Just like today is the day of questions , not to say that they are directed to the Minister of the Interior only but to other Ministers who have not yet given their policy speeches as well . Now the Minister that has prepared himself for answering , will take the floor . Thank you . MR . S.S. MOTHAPO : On a point of order Mr. Speaker , I fully agree with the hon . member Mr. L.C. Mothiba . Just to remind you yesterday when we adjourned the hon . member from Sekhukhuneland Kgoŝi Nkadimeng was holding the floor . And it was under Appropriation Bill . As it is now , he can't ask his questions under question time because it should be under Appropriation Bill . And there were still many more members of this House who wanted to direct or submit their questions to the Minister of Interior . I , therefore , feel Mr. Speaker that only those members of the Cabinet who are having some should be given this opportunity to ask those questions and the rest which are with the Minister of Interior should be answered under Appropriation Bill . Unfortunately , Mr. Speaker , the hon . member L.C. Mothiba did not move but only suggested . If this was a motion I would be saying , I seconded him so that we should proceed to Committee Stage . MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Thank you Mr. Speaker . When the Committee Stage comes I will be receiving and listening to more questions . Mr. Speaker , Sir , although I did include the L.D.C. in my policy speech last year , I nevertheless feel this is very important and I should try , and go over few items . Mr. Speaker , economic development of any country is a very serious matter . In fact it is economy of the country that decides the type of policy . Therefore , Mr. Speaker , we shall never ever as a nation allow a Department to handle such delicate matters alone . There is going to be a very close discussions between the diffenrent Departments of the same government and even go out to find out from those who know how best we could develop the economy of Lebowa . It is for this reason Mr. Speaker that the Cabinet has decided to form a committee to liaison very closely between the L.D.C and the Department of Economic Affairs in Lebowa . And it is for this reason that the Cabinet of Lebowa has agreed and welcomed an offer by the private sector to advise on the development of economy in Lebowa . It is for this reason Mr. Speaker that the University of Pretoria has been requested to make a scientific and thorough study of the economic development of Lebowa . And it is for this reason , Mr. Speaker , that on Tuesday officials of the L.D.C. and officials of my department will be flying in a helicopter all over Lebowa to try to conduct an economic survey as far as industries are concerned . Now the honourable House will realise and if they do that nothing is left a chance as far as this is concerned . And I must appeal to the hon . members of this House that those of the members who have economic insight into what we ought to do or to put our economy on a sound footing are at most welcomed to suggest this thing .

179

In short Mr. Speaker , I would like to say that the L.D.C. is the economic arm of the government of Lebowa , that is , the people of Lebowa . But it is autonomous . And I must thank them very much although they are an autonomous body they nevertheless consult the government of Lebowa on nearly everything that they envisage in Lebowa . We can never allow a situation to arise in Lebowa , Mr. Speaker where you'll find the Economic Department developing the economy of Lebowa as they see it . The Agricultural Department doing their own things and also the L.D.C. we must co - ordinate and work out a policy that will involve us all . I have very nearly wanted to suggest that the L.D.C. is just ourselves and nothing else . Mr. Speaker , I must now go on to the questions raised by the hon . member from Sekhukhuneland , Mr. Nkadimeng . Before I go on , Mr. Speaker , could I indicate that when I answer questions I request the House to write down if they feel I have not answered the question adequately so that I can do them on Friday . MR. P.L. KEKANA : Mr. Speaker , I asked two questions only . Who are L.D.C. ? Where are they coming from ? They are the people of which constituency? That's all .

MINISTER OF INTERIOR : I thank you very much . These are details that the hon . member will perhaps write down and if he does not write them down I will nevertheless , still reply to those questions . And I will reply those questions on Friday . Mr. Speaker , the Hon . member from Sekhukhuneland Mr. Nkadimeng asked me a very important question . He wanted to know what protections our people have , that is , those who are employed in Lebowa . Until recently it was not possible for the Government of Lebowa to negotiate with the Central Government on matters relating to the formation of trade unions . And because of changes that are taking place in South Africa it seems to me and I have consulted others on this matter that it will be impossible to negotiate with the Central Government . And in the meantime the only protection offered to our workers is just this that if you get hurt in the working operations you will get compensated by the workman's compensation . And we are busy negotiating a long established insurance companies and to try and work out insurance cover for our people particularly those who are employed in a job for a year and have to look for a job elsewhere . And we are making some progress along those lines . Just yesterday at 11 O'Clock when my vote was ༞་ ་ presented a man from Cape Town representing an old insurance company came up here to discuss such matters with time . Since I found out from my officials that the discussions were very favourable . For some there was a Firm in Lebowa here that strikes time and again . I suggested to the management that they should introduce a liaison committee and since than I am not aware of any problems . On call -in - cards I must say this is a worry , it was raised last year and this year and again in this House and all I can say is that I have not yet received back a report from my department . With the help of my department I promised to have the report ready during this session and I am committing myself by this that I will make a report .

180

But the problem which is really worrying also is that even people in the Urban areas in town contribute to the Unemployment Fund. And when they are back home here and are unemployed they don't get benefits . The case of our people is worrying in such a way that you find me working in the Urban areas , I am the driver and contribute for the Unemployment Fund . Now if I came back and say let them give me money they say I had enough money because I refuse to work in the mines . They inquire from the magistrate that is at the residential place of that man . Are there no contracts? If the magistrate says they are there for the mines , They say " no you don't want to work . " They don't give you money . That is a question . And on that point we must also find out if we can't correct this matter somehow because it is worrying . I inquired from the district magistrate how they go about this matter . He told me in mother tongue just the way I was telling you that it does not satisfy us because they certify that the man is unemployed as long as there are no contracts available in the district . And I make a note here , this kind of a thing is not satisfactory and should be gone into . The honourable member also referred to call - in - cards , and I said earlier I will have to report before the House adjourns . The hon . member from Sekgosese , Mr. H.M. Leshabane , wanted to know more about Manthata's removal . He even asked me again about the matters of Senthumule and Kgothama . I have nothing more to say or to add to what the hon . the Chief Minister has already said . Let me just say when we are getting to Pretoria we are going to discuss about the people of Kgothama and Senthumule who are interested in the removal . Pretoria is busy discussing the Manthata issue . We went to Pretoria twice that is the Cabinet and twice we were told each time we mentioned Senthumule people who are willing to move out of the Venda area , Pretoria told us about Manthata . So you realise , Mr. Speaker , that Pretoria and Lebowa do not have similar priorities . They told us that " Yes we are going to attend the Senthumule people " , but their priority was Manthata . They ended by telling us that the Manthata matters are not ours , we don't know what worries you because we refuse , we say Manthata is ntona and they say he is removed by them with their funds to their own area not that of Lebowa . They just wonder what makes us run mad . They say if we bought farms but not yet transferred to Lebowa . Here at Bochum people bought them and Pretoria refuses on the point that they don't belong to Lebowa , they still put Manthata there . But Pretoria has spoken very good about the people of Kgothama . It says whenever it removes people it must first see to it that schools are there , water , the place where they can reside etc. They say even those of ours although they give Manthata first preferance , they will still attend to them . The hon . House knows well that Pretoria refused to force issues . Now one point that was raised is this that our people are transported in open lorries to work on farms . I reported to the House that we did consult the Farmers Union and they told us that they were very sympathetic towards our our request . And all we can do Mr. Speaker is to hope for the best . There is an attempt by the Farmers Union to encourage their people to be housed properly in order to do away with transporting people between the work point and their residents .

181

They say " yes we agree to this but inflation is holding us back " . I am appealing to the honourable members here to suggest what to do .

Bus shelters all over Lebowa . I have already indicated Mr. Speaker that private company is going to erect shelters all over Lebowa . But apparently it does seem from the questions I get here that they get to a Kgosi area and erect a bus shelter at a bus stop without sending the notice at Moshate , Let us forgive them for they don't know our complaint , please . We shall teach them that whenever they come to the Kgoŝi place , they should approach him first . They should not think that if we have agreed for the erection of shelters everything is complete . I request the honourable House to forgive me on the questions of influx control for you had its details . These are matters which are spoken by the Chief Minister and the Prime Minister . The influx control doesn't give us we Lebowans alone a problem . The Transkeians have been relieved from influx control . Now Mr. Speaker , Senwamokgope Township . This township is run by the Department of Interior but it is still in the jurisdiction of the Kgoŝi . All the people are still ruled by Kgoŝi so the problem of a school does not concern me . Now to say that the school belongs to who I don't know . I don't want to quess . Recently the Regional Authority Bursaries were raised from R500 to R1 000. Even this R1 000 is not enough to help the people , say of Seshego . I will nevertheless submit the request for more money and hope that my request will be granted . My request will be submitted , inflation or no inflation . Now the honourable member from Bolobedu Mr. D. Modjadji wanted to know whether births and deaths registrations are compulsory . Up to now all we do is to encourage our people in Lebowa to register these things . It is very dangerous not to register death because your estates may not be distributed properly . Now as far as enforcing this and bringing about a law to see to it that if a death is not registered somebody should be punished , this could come up as a reduction from this House . As far as grave yards are concerned , there are those attached to the townships . In the magoŝi's areas it is a matter between the Kgoŝi himself and the Department of Agriculture . Now this is a most complex situation . I have received in my career . A girl married to a Kgoŝi plus four elder wives plus children and plus the registration of the marriage . Only one of them minus these four . It is a very difficult question this one . We agree that this is a hypothetical question . We find that it is difficult to understnad but I want to point out to the hon . member that the Department of Interior is only responsible for the registration of marriage . So we register civil and customary umans . Now as to the riddle of the girl and the four under women , I think the court will have to decide on such matters . Now comes . the water supply at Ga - Kgapane . I am very much pleased Mr. Speaker to report that the Department of Works is busy attending to that problem . And before long the problem will be solved . I found that from the horse's mouth . And it is this year . The Department of Interior has'nt got deportation powers .

182

This thing has to do with the State President . Now Regional Authority will grant bursaries to ten applicants . And my department at the beginning of each year finds out from the schools where applicants were admitted and pay out bursaries . Well it does happen that Regional Authority will grant bursaries to ten applicants and only five of these ten admission get to school . And then you realise that the R1 000 is not actually spent for that particular area in that given year . I have asked my department to give attention to this matter to make certain that R1 000 set aside for Regional Authority and should spent in the area of the Regional Authority and as recommended by the Regional Authority . The Honourable member for Thabamoopo Rev. S.S. Mothapo wanted to know whether it is true that the salaries in the mines are improved . We were told this in good faith and I accept this in good faith . And we have realised that in a mine that employs 1 400 people only 70 are non -Lebowans . It does seem to prove the case . And how much the different mines pay? I think they pay differently and it is for the Lebowa citizens to sell their labour where they think they will get the best salary . I am not able to answer that even in towns mines are not paying similarly . Even these mines of Lebowa are not paying the same . But I know one mine only that pays well if one happens to find a job there . They are very careful with the selection of their employees . And some of us have been to them to undergo this test and we did fail . We did'nt qualify to work in that particular place . But in all our negotiations with mining houses , we do request them to pay them equally for the same job . Now I am unable to tell you the names of these mines which are paying well because that is wrong . It may seem as if I am advertising those mines . Somebody informed us well . It is said that a clerk is paid R240 per month or even above that . And that company is the one which actually gives Lebowa bursaries so that they may go and study further so as to have knowledge about the job on the mines and to earn a good salary . Mr. Speaker Sir , although we have a Department of Labour , we are not a Department of Labour in the sense that we are not empowered to lay down minimum wages. On the matters of citizenship registration . In my policy speech I said 17 916 citizenship certificates was applied for in 1976. The honourable member wanted to know how many people in Lebowa are holders of these certificates today? And here are figures , men 164 664 , women 164 602 and the total is 329 266 . Now there is a question that how much time is required between the time when the applicant applies for a certificate and when the certificate will be received by him? I found out that this is not determined .

MR . S.S. MOTHAPO : Thank you the Hon . Minister of Interior . The Minister is actually not reading the question correctly . The question said a post is on the question of status of the advisory board into turning into a town council . How much time does it take Mr. Speaker , it is actually appearing on the policy speech .

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There are townships which already have advisory- boards and they will in due course receive a town council status . " THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : I thank the honourable member for his clarification . I thought by mistake that the factor is related both to the citizenship card and the advisory boards . All I can say at this stage is that we applied to Pretoria is the case now. And as soon as Pretoria grants us approval we have to organize for elections . Mr. Speaker I want to appeal to this House to sometimes refer to the restricions it will cut down a number of questions you asked . We don't want the idea that when the people of Lebowa will like to have a town council let me say in a township we must still ask Pretoria for approval . But that is the law . We don't want this point that when we say people should be elected and found some being introduced by the government without people's concern . That is not good . And it is stated in the schedule 1 and 2 which contain the Constitution Act 121/1978 that you'll add or subtract nothing . This is the Bible . You go and work according to how it has been formulated . Now my people , I promise you that it will approve our town councils . And if they can approve them immediately we shall be happy . If they delay we feel it painful and we are over- questioned in this House . There is a question here referring also to influx control and with due respect I request that this be treated like all other questions relating to influx control . Therefore let them understand if the way I have put it that this matter is a big one and it has been attended by the Chief Minister and the Prime Minister of South Africa . How many members are in the Transportation Board? There is a secretary , clerk and another clerk will be appointed soon . And there is a chairman . And one of the clerks has legal qualifications . And the chairman of the Transportation Board is Mr. Makgato . When the members of the Central Transportation Board came to see us here we discussed this whole question of establishing a board with them . They said for a chairman we could . They said for a chairman we could appoint a member of the public service in our government but he should hold that type of rank . I don't rember whether a chief clerk or a principal . And then they went on to suggest grade for a man could employ a secretary and a man we could set aside as a clark . They gave us the different grades . They did emphasize the fact that one of the members of the Board should have legal knowledge hence the appointment of one member with legal qualifications . I think is Mr. Maredi if I am not mistaken . The honourable member from Sekhukhuneland Mr. T.P. Makola wanted me to answer the following questions . The opening of a mine at Mooihoek without Kgoŝi Maroga knowing anything about it . I think this is something like the erection of shelters all over Lebowa without consulting the Kgoŝi responsible for the area . Most people once they realise that they have law on their side they don't bother to consult and negotiate .

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Now I found that from my section that in that particular area general mining is legalised . And the mining law says before anybody could settle people in an area where a mining company has demineralized permission must be obtained from the owner of the mineralised or from the Bantu Mining Commissioner in Barberton . Now this is something that I would like to take up with your minds and request them to sort off liaison with the dikgoŝi to avoid any misunderstanding and friction . And I must appeal also to the House that when a problem of this nature crops up it would be very useful to handle it at the very begining when these mining people start operating without consulting dikgoŝi that the attention of the Department of Interior be called in and try to solve the problem as it starts . Now the honourable member referred also to the L.D.C. and indicated that the corporation is also a mine -making concern . We know very well that this House never allowed B.I.C. to run business and they objected very strongly to that. The L.D.C. know this and they are doing everything to avoid it . Now the old B.I.C. Wholesalers in Lebowa have been transferred to L.D.C. and L.D.C. wants us to share in the ownership of the properties . As soon as arrangments have been finalised by L.D.C. we will be told when to buy shares . And also Mr. Speaker the L.D.C. is going to set up three bakeries and they write the Lebowa citizen to buy the shares and if possible 10%. Now referring to furniture retail outlets I must emphasize this point of furniture retail outlets . This problem was raised last year and it became very clear that a lot of our money in the homeland goes back to the towns by way of furniture business . And it was also pointed out last year correctly that the kind of this furniture trade operating in our homeland are to the disadvantage of the Black buyer . I was privileged. Mr. Speaker last year , to attend a very big symposium in Newland , Cape Town organised by the University fo Stellenbosch - Department of Economics . In that it was not only the Black man who was being victimized . It was a tendancy in the whole of the Republic of South Africa to be irregular with the prices furniture . Now the furniture Association in South Africa have promised the Minister of Economic Affairs of the Central Government that they are going to desolpline themselves through a special code of conduct . I sent copeis of this code to the respective Regional Authorities and invited to comment so as to test the feelings of our people . And up to now I have not yet received a reply . Mr. Speaker we need furniture outlets in Lebowa to stop our people from coming to Pietersburg . The only other way of making a contribution is to take Pietersburg to the people. But if then we are to have outlets in the homelands , these entail a lot of money available to develop these outlets and sell shares back to the people of Lebowa as soon as they can take them up . Because Mr. Speaker if we think we are going to have furniture outlets in the homelands and refer only to little shop that keeps about six chairs and two tables , then our people will go to Pietersburg . The idea here is that we must begin big and take over from the L.D.C. as soon as our private funds permit . And in the same conference I referred to in Cape Town the theme of the conference was Creeping Salialismin South Africa . You'll remember yesteday Mr. Speaker when the chairman did not protect me against allegations that I was turning this into a Communist state get up to say please I am not a communist .

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That was T.P. Makola at the conference . The organisers were worried that more and more operations are moving away from the people and are now being handled by the state . That is wrong . And it is very easy Mr. Speaker to quote the United States of America and say the railways there belong to a private sector . The airline and many others are belonging to private sectors , It is very easy to refer to each corner centre and say that should be run privately . But when you think of the fact that the private sector is interested only in operations that will give business . That is why they have businesses and nothing else . Some of these operations may be handled by the government because of their strategic values and because of the possibilities of running the opetations for a couple of years at a loss ,. But even the Americans have a tremendous interest in the log- hill- business where there may be flying machines . Three years ago the railway system in America belonged to private sectors , but now the private sectors said to the government we will be in charge of the railways as far as hauling things are concerned but passengers we are losing on that . We the private sectors are not interested and the state has been compelled to take over . You see even the Americans have their S.A.B. ( Small Business Administration ) agencies and they learnt a lesson recently . This is as recent as 1958. This is L.D.C. of the Americans which I am talking about . Although Mr. Speaker we can't talk of free enterprise , there is not such a thing really . We will find situations where the government encroaches a little bit in the interest of the country . I am giving this expostion Mr. Speaker just because a question was raised but in our Lebowa econom are not threatened by any organisation that aims at taking over from the people of Lebowa all business transactions . L.D.C. also understands that , that it should do much business , the people of Lebowa dislike it . I don't hope it will start such things . Fortunately the government of Lebowa and L.D.C. have agreed . It seems L.D.C. wants to run matters its own way . MR . T.P. MAKOLA : Point of order Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker some of the Lebowa citizens have already gone for the sales of these furnitures . Just go to Jane Futse Mr. Speaker and when you come back you'll bear me the witness . Two furniture industries have already been established there by the Blacks . Now why should we allow the L.D.C. to go into this kind of business . They are just going to compete them . Mr. Speaker through you please let the Minister of Economic Affairs be advised that this is really not a time to allow L.D.C. to go into the industry of Lebowa . It is quite clear our people are beginning to show us that they have the ability to help as far as industry is concerned . The Minister of Economic Affairs should please not go ahead with what I see in his speech concerning the furniture sales . If he does that he will be causing trouble from the field of Leboua . Of course we would welcome it if the B.I.C. simply financed our Blacks in as far as industries are concerned . But L.D.C. should participate in this kind of business on itself , it is rejected . Mr. Speaker we should not allow any socialist economy because we are all aware where this can lead to . It can only lead to abominable communism . Now Mr. Speaker who of you in this House wants to lead that type of life ? Mr. Speaker it is only the man who encourages Lebowa Development Corporation to socialise economy . Thank you Mr. Speaker .

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But when we say that any member exceeding a quarter of the member of the members of the Legislative Assembly should form a quorum , should be accepted by everybody. I have realised that almost when we were here for the last 9 years we were never less 20 or less than 25 or less than 30. What then stops us from going on? If the White men are 171 in Cape Town and only 30 can go on forming regulations and making laws . What stops us in Lebowa here? This was a political chicanery that if we are not 50 we should not go on . We are responsible people , we cannot come on Mondays very late unless we have something to do at home . Mr. Speaker Sir , I have been given a wrong information this morning and yesterday and the day before . And there are some of those people who profess to know laws yet they know nothing . They are men that constituted the Homelands . A constitution that will pay something of this kind . A proclamation in terms of section of the Homeland , Act may be withdrawn or amended by the State President of the request of the particular Legislative Assembly or the particular homeland . That of course will go according to the correct channels though the Commissioner- General , through the Minister concerned then up to the State President . That section 3 of the amended section of 25 of of 1975 gives this House the power to amend proclamation Act No. R 225. I wonder if the Reverend is still near ; I am pleading now in the absence of the two of our honourable members whose names I mentioned here . This is what they will tell me when they return . Any decision taken by 25 members by this House will be a minority decision . You can realise that they were spoon fed . They don't know even what is a minotiry or majority decision . Even Cape Town 171 people if only 30 are there , they are making laws to bind the country , to bind you and I , how can't we here? Maybe some people are unaware of the Act No. 4 of 1976 which was amended ; the relevant section 3 of section 2 and gave us the very right to move a motion requesting the State President to amend our constitution to read the number of the members that we need to form a quorum . I said this was a political chicanery when a man will say this in section on Proclamation R225 section 2 which says this " any number of the man here exceeding half the number of members of the Legislative Assembly shall form a quorum " . We are 100 , it is immaterial that we can almost be 50 in this house at any time . And if we are not 50 that should not stop the work of the Legislative Assembly to go on . What really disturbs me is this that every evening the Radio Bantu should announce that Lebowa Législative Assembly is not on due to the reason that there is no quorum . It is a complete and known fact that Lebowa was the first one of the homelands in the land . With this submission the honourable House , that is an open request . I don't want to hear any more the Chief Minister complaining over the radio that we don't come to the Parliament . Our standard is getting low . And it will be very much sad if we who claim to represent our people here being told to relinquish our jobs because of failure in the quorum formation and yet are having means of forming a quorum this would have healed the disease perpertually . Thank you Mr. Speaker .

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MR . T.P. MAKOLA : Mr. Speaker I second the mover for the good reasons that he has mentioned . I am now going to sit down Mr. Speaker and write down every member who tries to oppose this motion ; this I will tell our people outside that you've reproached our dikgoŝi by claiming that they are loafers . In fact it is possible that this prove can say that it is not the ordinary people that may cause problems but even dikgoŝi can cause a deadlock . With this good proclamation the dignity of our dikgoŝi will be restored that is wrong if we are busy with our affairs here whilst Kgoŝi Molepo and Kgoŝi M.M. Matlala are busy continuing with their affairs in their areas there? Mr. Chairman whose son is that who came with this good idea? I am now angry I am going to sit down and write them down .

MR . M.J. BOPAPE : Thank you Mr. Chairman . I request that you should allow me some minutes for I have an urgent motion to move now , so that it should be discussed . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : The hon . Bopape I don't think I will allow this motion . I still want to ascertain from the House whether this motion is accepted . According to the Rules of Procedure the "yeses " are many . So I take it hon House that we are through with this motion . In the abscence of our counter motion I take it this motion is accepted . MR .

S.P.

KWAKWA :

Mr. Speaker I am holding the floor.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Honourable House I called for a counter motion . Not a debate . A counter motion .

a counter House and to move a the House

MR. S.P. KWAKWA : Mr. Speaker how can anybody rise and put motion in the midst of this aproar? This is a democratic there can be no steam rolling . I expected Kgoŝi Mogashoa counter motion and he was not allowed . He was ruled out by not the Speaker .

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : So honourable House there is no counter motion and so this motion is accepted . Then we shall proceed . MR..M.T . BOPAPE : Thank you Mr. Speaker . I stand here to move the opposing motion whilst I wish it to be discussed this time . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Honourable magoŝi with due respect you are the leaders of the nation I don't expect such . Any man who has anything to say he must ask and speak . Not to hold so much caucuses in the House . Continue hon member . MR . L.C. MOTHIBA : Thank you I stood up on a point of odder Mr. Speaker and our Rules of Procedure says " except and otherwise provided in these Rules no substantive motion shall be moved in the Legislative Assembly unless one clear day ; notice has been given in the case of a motion by a member of the Cabinet and six clear days in the case of a motion by other member . " Mr. Speaker Rule 69 , 70 , 71 , 72 go on to indicate the procedure to be followed when a motion has to be moved . And Mr. Speaker unless our Rules are suspended no other way should be followed except this particular procedure . Thank you Mr. Speaker .

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MR . M.W. KGATLA : On a point of order Mr. Speaker following Rule 68 ask for suspension of the business of the day today and get into a very urgent motion . That the honourable Mr. M.T. Bopape wishes to move right now . It is the law of the land of Lebowa what he asks for that .

MR. M.T. BOPAPE : Mr. Speaker I am thankful if the House allows me to proceed , there is a big problem which was brought by this book which we are having , BMBO . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Order . I don't know the nature of urgent motion . I am just wondering whether the hon . Mr. M.W. Kgatla was seconding your motion before you actually say it . MR.

M.W.

KGATLA :

MR . Speaker Sir in explanation .

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Order ! As I was saying I was just wondering when Mr. Kgatla stood up whether he was seconding a motion which I don't know . The table hasn't got that motion I don't know it . The table hasn't got that motion yet . Even if you can take a motion as urgent it should be on the table here .

nding .

MR . M.T. BOPAPE : Mr. Speaker I am thankful for understaBut I refuse speaking later now .

MR . M.T. BOPAPE : Point of order Mr. Speaker . In as far as I understand the honourable member from Bolobedu Mr. Kgatla he was raising a point of order trying to suspend the business of this House in order to attend to the motion to be raised by the hon . Mr. Bopape . So according to the chair Mr. Bopape is not given a chance of raising up that urgent motion . MR . M.W. KGATLA : On further point of order Mr. Speaker it is the idea when people are giving urgent motions , it is necessary that it must be written . I might have something in the news paper in the morning and I am trying to bring it here . I move it here and say whatever I want to say and will have the people to talk about it .

MR . L.C. MOTHIBA : O a point of order Mr. Speaker the honourable mebers are to some extend correct but if you read Rule 167 further it says " Provided that in case of urgent necessity ( of which the Speaker shall be the judge ) any such rule or order may with consent of the Assembly be suspended upon a motion made without notice . Now , in order that the Speaker must be the judge that this is urgent and he will allow it . That is why he is asking if you could write something so that be himself can judge whether it is an urgent motion . MR . M.W. KGATLA : Mr. Speaker Sir it comes to the sense of this . You allow the hon . Bopape to say what he wants to tell us . And if you find it is not urgent then you can rule him down and say no or yes! Let him say it then you judge whether you accept it or not .

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THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : May I continue Mr. Speaker? The Honourable member has explained in a very convincing manner , that the economy is being threatened . I want to assure the House that the threat does not exist . If a group of entrepreneurs would form a company and ask the L.D.C. to give them a loan the L.D.C. will consider the application . I repeat if a group of entrepreneurs would form a company and submit an application to the L.D.C,, the L.D.C. will consider it . And the L.D.C. has informed my department officially that they will not start on a project in any district before they discuss the project with the members of the Chamber of Commerce in that area . Mr. Speaker I must say this , I am very reluctant to say this but perhaps it is necessary under present circumstances . Recently the Cabinet of Lebowa received an invitation from a white man who said he already has two businesses in Lebowa furniture buildings . And subsequently the invitation was not accepted because that matter is the one which will cause the people of Lebowa to fight us . Hon . House please let us discourage our Blacks to continue trading as agents because in actual fact Mr. Speaker it amounts to this fact that a foreign money be taken into Lebowa and profits get out year by year without we gaining a thing out of them . When we are struggling for the fact that people should work accordingly so that their money should feed their children , we have on the other hand others becoming agents for L.D.C. inquires about the commercial situation here , they say things are working according to socialism and communism patterns . Those are enemies of the Economy of Lebowa . They cause the children of Lebowa to suffer from hunger eternally . I don't want to talk much but beware of those people who can talk but talking lies . The honourable member from Sekhukhuneland is telling the truth . If there are those who want to erect furniture shops they should consult the L.D.C. for loans . But L.D.C. has a project , they will start nothing before they consult the Chamber of Commerce of that district . We are being accused of refusing employing Swazis for reason that they don't have citizenship cards . We in the Department of Interior , don't usually say people should bring along their citizenship cards if they want job . In fact on junior clerk prepared a memorandum to my desk and quoted a citizenship certificate number . I crossed out the citizenship number and called the official to my office and explained to him that this was unnecessary and nobody asked for it . I expect the honourable member from Sekhukhuneland to say we did well on that score . Now another problem is that if a person is S. Soth or Tswana speaking from either Johannesburg or Pretoria making applications , there should be a prove that he is belonging to Lebowa . Even if he wants business in Lebowakgomo , we want to know if he belongs to Lebowa . Now , they don't force that he should have citizenship card but he could also posses a reference book that will indicate that he is a person from Lebowa and then they will fix up everything for him . By so saying my Nkosi Swazi at Sekhukhuneland won't suffer . They will come and prove that they are from Lebowa . If it is the request from this House that we should request Pretoria to arrange also for the Swazis who are in Johannesburg , we could do this without giving much responsibility to the Department of Interior .

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On matters concerning Department is not the if he wants job . The a prove before we can else a business .

nurses ask fom the Department of Health . My one that for es a person to have such a card only thing i that Pretoria says let there be give the Swa is or South Sothos from somewhere

MR . T.P. MAKOLA : Mr. beaker the hon . the Minister of Interior has deviated from the act al nature of my question . My question in this regard was as follows : " Why is that when Lebowa young man has married a girl from utside Lebowa the lady finds it difficult to get employment in Lebwa? " Recently a young man in Sekhukhuneland got married in Bots ana . The lady is a qualified nurse , a sister . She went to Groothoek wit ! an intention of getting employment there as a nurse . Why that girl gt it tough to be employed there? They told her at Groothoek that they are not going to employ her since she is not a Lebowa citizen . Did she at automatically become a Lebowa citizen when she got married to my son? Mr. Speaker this type of question I am not going to pose to the Minister of Health . I must pose it to the Minister of Interior where the pass books are concerned . Thank you . THE MINISTER OF INTER JR : Thank you Mr. Speaker . I like to say the honourable member has a right to ask the question to a wrong man if he so chooses . But if the Ion . member is really interested in getting a reply , I am not in a pos : tion to know that Groothoek hospital does . At the beginning I did not ant to say the Hon . member's question is irrelevant in as far as Interio: is concerned . That is why I tried to indicate to the House what the Department of Interior has to do with cards that is , as far as businesses and property to a person from outside , he should be a citizen of Lebowa . As far as how nurses are emplyed it is the condition of service whether they are internally employed or they are imports form outside South Africa I don't know and it is not a matter for my department . Mr. Speaker I am not refusing to rely to the question . It is just it does not affect my department . Now I have received a note here from my department and they say to me I must really emphasize the fact that the days are over for runners in Leowa . And I said so already . And there is reference here to capitalism and communism . Some says it is not fair for some to have money and others don't . We have communalism in our culture . Now Mr. Speaker I go on to a question raised by the hon . Mr. T.S. Tlaka . Why do we provide for R23 000 for 1 movals in Lebowa because we don't remove people? People have remover internally through planning and through new operations such as mining operations coming in . The question was who made MR . T.S. TLAKA : The question Mr. Speaker was as follows : I haven't got the paper but it saic " Seeing that provision has been made in the budget for the payment of compensation to people removed , would you kindly explain how the assessment of the compensation termines that assessment has a final word ir it . Further Mr. Speaker I wanted to know what is hindering the payment of copensations to the people removed from Spitzkop to Vergelen in Nebo curing 1975?

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And some removed from Middelburg to Hlogotlou some four years back? Mr. Speaker please ask the hon . the Minister I don't say he is removing people . They are denying that they remove anyone and I want to know about the compensation . Thank you Mr. Speaker . THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Mr. Speaker Sir I didn't quite understand the hon . member yesterday because he and I have the problem of voices . Now it is clear to me that he wants to know about the compensation . But the removals have been done three years ago . The member has every right to ask this question because apparently people were removed and received no compensation . Now as far as the people at Spitzkop are concerned , my department has no record of their removal . My department suggest that perhaps , the Department of Agriculture and Forestry would know . Now as far as removals are concerned , let us from now onwards know that if the people are being removed by the Central Government it is responsible for compensation . Now we have just heard that the Manthata people were compensated . We don't know those things . They are known by the Central Government . If Lebova removes a person internally it is that money which is for compensation . In that case the Department of Works is requested to evaluate the property . But if the person concerned is not satisfied with evaluation he is free to bring in a private evalution as long as he will pay his expenditure . I got the information that people were brought from outside into homeland . I request you when we discuss a case let us direct this to the person concerned . My people are removed from Doornkop or anywhere to any strange place the compensation thereof is done by the Central Government when the Central Government is willing to remove people it does so even we fight against the idea and compensate them the way it feels . There is nothing we can do . Questions for Mr. Kwakwa from Mokerong . The Hon . member is right to suggest that when we have a town coucil why do we still have people nominated by the government? If you read schedule one of our constitution does refer to townships as belonging to Pretoria . But I think it is time that my department will try to ask Pretoria to make the elections sufficiently and not insist on the old proclamation that requires some people to be nominated . The second question , is " does Lebowa envisage time where will be recreation centres in the towns? " But at present we have no money to this effect . I am told by my department that in township the rented equal to balance and ledger account . Now it leaves the government of Lebowa with no money to build additional houses or even to take care and provide and other amenieties . And it would be unfortunate if the rentals were raised in order to bring in additional revenue that would enable the Department to put up parks and amenities because our people are unemployed . Let alone poor salaries . But unfortunately thee is a way that is being studied by the corporation and my department whereby the town council will have to have some income directed to them . And when that is done one will imagine perhaps that the town council will take care of parks recreation of halls , Mr. Pig Pitje's name was mentioned that he was refused permission to start a a biscope business in Seshego . All what actually happened is that Mr. Pitje bought a biscope site from the honourable I. Modjadji .

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And I am sorry if this will be an embarrassment but the honourable Mr. Modjadji sold the plot to somebody else . And the honourable Mr. Modjadji refunded Mr. Pitje his money . And as this riddle went on a group of people here came togather and applied for biscope . And their application was considered favourably and now they are going to put up a biscope . I received a telephone call from some reporter wanting me to explain why we were discriminating against Mr. Pitje . I referred him to the business section and they told him exactly what I am saying пош . And apparently the reporter did not want to report the truth because it would be interesting I don't know . What has happened to the special school that was ear- marked for Mokerong? Although I have an idea of what happened . I request the honourable member to put this question to the Minister of Education . I know this because this matter was discussed at Cabinet level . The question was also raised that the government has given thought to bringing in a man with legal qualifications into the transportation board . I have already indicated that Mr. Maredi has legal qualifications . It was also asked whether I am aware of the suffering of the people of between Pretoria and Warmbaths who are being searched by the railway officials . I am not aware . But I am , nevertheless grateful that now I know and I will have to take up this matter with the railway people . Thank you very much . The question of our employees , why do we pay them such poor salaries? Quite recently the Cabinet gave me instruction to investigate the possibility of revising salaries paid to our civil servants and I did that . But because it was a matter that had to do with monies , we had to liaison with Pretoria . Pretoria said it had nothing to do because we will be paying our people highest than what other homelands are doing and better salaries than Pretoria itself is paying . They said no . And Pretoria reserves the right of refusing additional expenditures as long as it assists us to balance our budget . The same can be said when the salaries paid by Lebowa to the labourers . Once again I must say here although the wages are low the Department of Interior does not discribe the wages paid by the government . But what the questioner really wanted I think should give this matter attention and see if we could perhaps get it right . We shall try again . The case of the problem of water in Mahwelereng has been noted . And I am happy I accept the explanation from my colleaque because at one time he told us that he was going to have ga -Kgapane College and Modjadji College in no time and it stands now . So Mr. Speaker I expect him as I requested him to get this water problem in Mahwelereng rectified in record time . He said he has set aside R18 000 just for that . Again there is a question about influx control in towns . I did find out from my department and was told that there are no restrictions to Blacks moving in towns . It is Whites only who are not allowed into townships . Now I don't know if this House is willing that we should alter this law that prohibits Whites to come into our townships? And if there is a member who feels that way I suppose the correct thing to do will be to submit a motion and it will go through the necessary channels and then perhaps be discussed by the House . And If I have omitted any question I will be pleased to get a note to that effect and I will reply it .

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MR . S.P. KWAKWA : Mr. Speaker I posed a question on influx control when I referred to influx control in the homelands , I meant for instace if you are not a member of tribal authority or a tribe around a town , you cannot for instance settle there . You cannot buy a plot there . I don't mean that has been changed . Just to give an example if a man came from Sekhukhuneland , he would not be allowed to buy a house at Mahuelereng because they say you don't belong to that area . Your chief is right outside . It is another form of influx control because in the White areas for instance you can't buy a house if you are not registered with resident of that place , for instance Pretoria or Johannesburg . That was what I meant . As a Lebowa citizen I felt that we should be permitted to settle all over Lebowa . THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Mr. Speaker the only time an individual was unable to buy property in town , was when he owned a property in another township . Last year already the government indicated that it is no good to restrict the people and allow them to`` own property in more than one area . And it is only four weeks ago that my department received the necessary blessings from Pretoria . That's why we say if you want a house either in Mahwelereng or Mapulaneng and found a clerk telling you that it is impossible please inform us . Because they also refer from those old circulars . They have send us new circulars that put things right because I don't know why they should comes from . Whether he comes bother to know where the applicant from a tribal area or from a township . He is there , he is applying for a site he wants to buy . He should buy it . The honourable Mr. Mahlangu from Nebo wanted to know about the registration of marrieages and he came up with a very difficult combination of one men marrying quite a number of women . Now Mr. Speaker we only register the marriage . And we will register the marriages whether by civil or customary union . And I am unable to unrumble the position as presented to me by the honourable member . But I wish to promise this honourable House that we shall register the marriages . And I think I replied to question referring to Hlogotlou last year and I am going to ask my department to give me a prepared speech which I will read out about the history of Hlogotlou , where people came from whether they were compensated or not . I will do that on Friday Mr. Speaker . A question was raised referring to the Advisory Board for Hlogotlou . A member wanted to know whether there are people there presenting dikgoŝi and so on . And the position now is that the tribal authority has objected to the existance of the Advisory Board at Hlogotlou and his Board has since been suspended to allow time to unscramble it . And if it should ever be necessary to have an Advisory Board at Hlogotlou the Mahlangu Tribal Authority will be consulted . We have to consult the tribal authority because the area is exercised from the area of the tribal authority . The honourable Kgoŝi Mathabatha . How many mines in Lebowa? MR . A.S. MAHLANGU : Point of order Mr. Speaker . I have understood all the details about Hlogotlou . Where I don't follow is on these two types of marriages viz . civil marriage and customary union because they give us a problem . They give magoŝi a problem . That person who married according to civil marriage you find that he has also delivered lobola . Now when he is divorcing the magistrate refuses that he should be judged by the Kgoro because he has married in civil marriage . You can see that this person has married twice . He has married in a traditional manner that is the delivering of lobola

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and by civil marriage that is signing at the magistrate offices . Bear in mind that the Whites don't deliver lobola . Now just make this point clear . I want to know what it is meant when it is said kgoŝi has no powers over a person who has married according to civil marriage whereas he has also paid out lobola . I want to know which the actual marriage : is , becuase so far the civil marriage is dominating and it gives rights over the properties . For instance if two wives are married to one man according to these two types of marriages , the one who has been married according to civil marriage has that right of inheriting the whole property after the death of this man . We will consider this matter as minor but I want a thorough explanation there of because it gives much trouble .

THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Mr. Speaker I thank you . I did mention that as to problems concerning dikgoro I know nothing because I just register those who marry in civil marriage and those who marry by customary union. The Department of Interior does not contract marriage but it does the registration . We do the registration of marriages so as to enable the handling of divorce cases and others . For further details in this regard we shall ask the Department of Justice to give light . We will only register that so and so is married to so and so . MR . A.S. MAHLANGU : Point of order Mr. Speaker . I say this because the Minister of Interior has admitted that he does not know much about these issue ; let us not waste time in this regards now I know where to ask . THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : I thank you . The hon . Kgoŝi Mathabatha wish to know the number of mines in Lebowa . I will reply part of this question on Friday . The hon . member also said the people in local mines are not registered . My information is that they are registered . He referred also to poor accommodation in the compound . My department sent an offcial to inspect the compound just last week and their report will be brought into the House . And I am informed by my department that those who sustain injuries in the mines are compensated . About those who suffer from typhus there is that Act which stipulates that they should be well paid . Now by the time I am suffering from any mine disease and claim the whole money it is claimed that I will waste it . There are those who accept to be paid such money monthly and those we don't accept this .. Now I don't actually know what is said about this ; or should we discuss if that those who want their money in one day should get it? We can do that . My people we will investigate intoe this matter and I shall inform you in this House . The last question is about the case for whites here at Chuenespoort . I came in this way Mr. Speaker , when the department of Works and Agriculture started operating in Lebowakgomo , we received a request from the two departments on Friday that the servants are suffering from hunger . Some of the servants from the two departments had already made some arrangements with the Whites who own that cafe that could they supply them if they sought a permission from the authorities? I sincerely believe Mr. Speaker that the House wishes to know this fact . And if I would be left undisturbed I could attempt to do so . I refused the request that whites should supply Lebowakgomo and said that they try Blacks first . Now it is said that some servants in those departments wished to relinquish their posts on the fact that we placed them in the forests where business centre is not there . And these are whites who say so and not Blacks . I say we can allow them temporarily whilst still looking for a Blackman . The request was brought on Friday and it said their cafe of those white can start serving them

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on Monday . So that they should not suffer from hunger I've said that those Whites should be permitted for 30 days whilst still looking for a Black man to take over . Advertisments have been done to the effect that a Black man in Lebowa is needed to erect a good cafe at Lebowakgomo . I am pleased to inform this House that four people have applied for this business . Now one will be given permission to establish a cafe there . These Blacks have applied for this business on February and I have permitted these Whites to sum their business until December and by January the following year nobody should be there . I extended the permit monthly until the Black man is ready to take over . I treated this as a Black ambulance that is expected not to help White injured people . But this one collects them and say they are injured let them come to the hospital . On the other way round as a white ambulance which is not prepared to leave Black man dying on the road because the ambulance is for Whites it carries him to the hospital . And discrimination is not a policy in Lebowa . But nevertheless our business men must be protected in Lebowa and we are doing just that . THE SPEAKER : until late at 2.15 p.m. THE

HOUSE

ADJOURNS

FOR

Order !

LUNCH

Now we shall stop the discussions

AT

12h45

TO

14h15 .

THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Thank you . The question raised by the hon . Mr. Digashu . He wanted to know what minerals are there in Mapela district . How does the tribe benefit from the mining operations . This matter is being investigated and I will report accordingly . And the issue of unofficial Churches , I will also inquire about it . Now it is said that the church which is composed of Black and Whites should obtain its approval from Pretoria . These of we Blacks alone don't give any problem because they are being cared for in the Department of Interior . Now I ask how does it come that the Department of Interior is unable to approve such mixed churches , they say usually there is a aquable in the congregation about money . There was a question on lavatories which should be built all over Lebowa . This has given me chance to find out if there are lavatories all over South Africa . I want to find out if people ask Lebowa to build lavatories on any bus stop in Leobwa , that is the position in case of the Republic of South Africa. I know of only one town in Europa where there is a lavatory in every street but these are not found outside . So to say Mr. Speaker the Department of Interior will discuss with those who are in possession of funds if we can't build some lavatories at other places so that buses can ston for come time . For instance railway buses stop at Bronkhorspruit even if there is nobody who boards or alight . So we also shall investigate so that we must have our own Bronkhorstspruit here and there in Lebowa where people can relieve themselves . Now the question raised by the honourable Kgoŝi Mothapo . If the honourable Kgoŝi Mothapo wishes to know where Zebediela belongs . The answer is that by this time we are still requesting that it should be ours . They have not yet given it to us . The hon . Chief Minister has already talked about Zebediela last year that when it was known to belong to us they became vague and said that it will be given to a homeland . And even then we are challenging .

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There was also a question about operations such as Iscor and Sasol . Those two operations are not alike . And if you read news papers you will find that the members of the opposition ask the Minister of the Republic Economic Affairs questions about Iscor , Sasol and Saldana Bay which are under the government control . But we here in Lebowa don't have such difficulty as I said when answering the honourable T.P. Makola for Sekhukhuneland . In other words we don't have state owned operations in Lebowa . How many are people who secured job in this area? And from which tribal authorities do they come? The Department of Interior is investigating such statistics . We shall release these if we have found them . There was also a point raised that in the past the East Rand Administration Board used to put up houses at Lebowakgomo . Now Pretoria has taken over and has nothing doing . I would like to correct thus Mr. Speaker because the East Rand Administration Board is still responsible for the erection of houses. KGOĜI T.J. MOTHAPO : Point of Order Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker I have said nothing about the Bantu Administration Board . I have said the East Rand Municipality , it is the one which was prepared to build Lebowakgomo . Now it has been taken by the government and it is the East Rand Administration Board of which is Pretoria . Actually which was prepared to build Lebowakgomo was the East Rand Municipality . It has arranged that it will build 80 000 houses for two years . This means by 1999 it woul have build 80 000 houses . After the formation of Bantu Administration Board , Pretoria began to control all the things , and that is why there is no progress there . And it even says that funds are not there , why?

THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Mr. Speaker if Pretoria and the East Rand Municipality have shared jobs according to how it is mentioned what must I do ? I must assure Kgoŝi that whatever agreement has been entered into between the two bodies it was not on the recommendation of the Department of Interior . KGOŝI T.J. MOTHAPO : My question is not in connection with the agreement between these two bodies which I ask why they say funds are not available . THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Mr. Speaker I really want to be polite on this question . And the thing is this that if Pretoria says there is no money what the Department of Interior should do? All we have done is to ask that more houses be erected and Pretoria or the East Rand for that matter knows wxactly that we have a very long waiting list for houses in Lebowakgomo . Now the honourable Kgoŝi asks me that if we ask and they refuse for what reason are they doing that? When they are replying they say they don't refuse . They say they don't have money . Perhaps money they have but they just refuse , what should I do , if they say they are running short? Isn't it that the day before they were saying to become a beggar always cause tiresome to those who are giving you . It is requested that if we could have houses built overnight at Lebowakgomo and anywhere in Lebowa for that matter our people would be happy to occupy them . But this is just not happening Mr. Speaker Sir . Although they refuse with their funds we won't stop asking them . We will keep on knocking perhaps they will open for us . We are knocking Mr. Speaker .

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About bus shelters I said it appears as if at some certain places they have erected these things without the permission of the owners of the areas . If they discussed with Kgoŝi Mothapo he could have advised them not to erect a shelter at the junction . Now I have requested them to discuss this point with dikgoŝi and they will advise them where to erect such shelters . I hope that the mistake will be rectified by putting that shelter to the proper place . The honourable Kgoŝi also asked a question whether I know what I mean by non-described post . Usually questions come to us to explain what these things mean . But here we have no understanding on such matters as non described post . Mr. Speaker Sir I once served on a commission headed by the honourable member and on our recommendation we said the T. which stood for " Tydelike Werkers " was changed to non prescribed post that is changing the same and not the substance , because it was agreed at the time and it was subsequently accepted that why we call people who are permanently employed - shy do we have done just that . It is no longer T.W. is non described posts and the people will go along as usual . There is nothing in the tarminology that suggest that they are temporary . And basically they are permanent . The question of subsistence and travelling allowances of Ministers drivers reduced from R4 to R2 , is receiving attention . In fact it is all the drivers in Lebowa . It is not just the Minister's driver who handles L.G. 4 I took up the matter with the Public Service Commission and the heads of the departments . This goes to how Mr. Chairman that when problems arrive , the attention of the department is focussed on this , there is definitely a way of helping the people . Now comes the question that I promised to see to it that by the 1st April , 1977 there would be a Minister of Economic Affairs in Lebowa . KGOŝİ T.S. first day of April .

MOTHAPO :

Point of order Sir , I never said the

THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : And the hon . member went further to doubt my intergrity that is his privilege I nevertherless will explain to the hon . House that the hon . member brought a motion calling upon the government of Lebowa to have a ministry in Economic Affairs . And in my capacity as the leader of the House I presented the motion to the Cabinet . The Cabinet felt because negotiations were afort already to ask Pretoria to allow the establishment of the Department of Economic Affairs , it felt that it was necessary to debate this in the House . And my information is Mr. Speaker , that the Cabinet and the Chief Minister with other members discuss this point with Minister of Bantu Administration in Pretoria and in Cape Town and the matter is being discussed . And to prove that the Department of Bantu Administration is giving attention to this matter , Pretoria has sent an inspector to look into the volume of work in the Department of Interior . The inspector interviewed me and other officials and the report has been taken back to Pretoria . I have no reason to believe that Pretoria will not reply to our request . So it does seem as if we may have exercise a little patience .

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How about to provide luxury buses? I will convey the request . A request because " AWOBEL " is a private company and it is to be a public one these days and they take care of financial consideration whom they deal with such requests . There was an allegation earlies that AWOBEL buses here in Lebowa belong to L.D.C. But I want to explain that whereas B.I.C. rent buses , this one thing was not given to L.D.C. Actually the bus people themselves form a company that's why they are under AWOBEL and not L.D.C. But I don't know Mr. Speaker that if luxury buses can be used , is this not going to affect fares? I don't know Mr. Speaker , apparently to travel by Putco bus is not the same as travelling by railway bus because they are meant for tourists which are getting to Kruger National Park and they have money . I am trying to raise this point Mr. Speaker but the real thing is that I will indicate to AWOBEL and get their decision . And if the AWOBEL can't afford to give us those buses we may have to hire other buses . We don't have to hire them from AWOBEL. Mr. Mohlala of Mapulaneng raised questions about Elandsfontein , Mokoena area , compensations and somebody who was not paid pensions . I will have to remind the hon . members from Mapulaneng that this House is not in agreement with the proposed consolidation . And although the hon . member's cousins suggested last week that signed papers that people go , I want to point out that it was a deliberate way of deceiving the House . About the congestion of people in the area of Mokoena I reported back to the people of Mokoena until the next question in that area was solved , the problem of congestion is going to pester us . Some of the people in that area were trespassed and with the help of my department the trespasses were withdrawn . But people who did not know where to claim against accident did not know to claim for pensions , came to me and I suggested to them to go to the Magistrate Bushbuckridge and not to come to the Parliament . I can assure the hon . member that the people that came to him subsiquently came to me and I have already referred them to the Maoistrate . Buchaurkridoe . So I think their problem is solve Mr. Speaker . The last question came from the hon . Kgoŝi Nkadimeng . I request the hon . Kgoŝi to ask me to withdraw this question because I really can't understand it . I studied some Beography at the University but this buffles me . He asked me geographically speaking where we were? Really I can't answer him . KGOŝI P. NKADIMENG : hon . Minister on this question . I can say ....

I am really prepared to help you the To make this question of mine simpler

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : ORDER HON . member , I thought Kgoŝi Nkadimeng you still have time to put up your questions . I say you will get your chance in the Committee Stage to continue .

THE

MINISTER

OF

INTERIOR :

I am finished

Sir .

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Do we still have any more question to be answered? Other Ministers? That being done we shall now continue to item No. 11 ( Notice of motions ) Item 12 ( a ) ( Notices of Bills ) (b)

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MR. M.W. KGATLA : Mr. Speaker Sir on item 12 (b) I move that the Republican Government be requested to amend proclamation R225 section 11 ( 2 ) so that any member exceeding a quarter of the members of the Legislative Assembly shall form a quorum . MR .

T.P.

MAKOLA :

Mr. Speaker I second the mover .

Mr. M.W. KGATLA : Mr Deputy Speaker Sir , in terms of Section 50 of the South African Constitution the presence of at least 30 members in the House of Assembly in Cape Twon forms a quorum . It will serve the purpose to try to make history into the ears of some hon . members like the hon . Reverend S.S. Mothapo of Thabamoopo to understand this . And even the hon . member from Sekhukhuneland Godfrey Sekhukhune who is not here who is still member or who still have that ideology that a White man just prescribe to what they must do in life in order to become people . Mr. Speaker Sir , if he is a reverend of a church and if in his church they do what he is doing I will never become a member of his church . MR . S.S. MOTHAPO : Point of order Mr. Deputy Speaker : didn't say a thing on this particlar motion .

I

MR . M.W. KGAILA : Mr. Speaker Sir I have said that in Cape Town so members in the House of the Legislative Assembly form a quorum . It will interest everybody to listen to this . The members of the Legislative Assembly in Cape Town are 171. I am talking from the Rules of Procedure which were passed last year and I have been reading that and I have got facts within me . The House is composed of the following members from the followint provinces . Cape 55 , Natal 20 , 0.F.S. 14 , Transvaal 76 and S. West Africa 6. If you can count one and one to make two of that makes 171 . Mr. Speaker Sir , in 1968 the Central Government passed an Act which is called Interference Act into other politics . And we have been noticing that there are people who are interfering in our politics . And this should stop forth with . And those members who are listening to other people in order to come and have arguments here for and the law they were born to live . I am piloting a very important motion here which has been worrying year in and year out without a solution . I am no man to go and fine people if they don't come in the Parliament or come to church or come to any shop for buying . Everything is being done on time . There is time to eat . There is time to rest , time to sing , time to talk , time to shatter and time to die . It is only one individual who is not in the bondage of time . And there is an individual who is out of time . For the last four , three years back we have realised this anomally that on Mondays we don't form a quorum in this Legislative Assembly . We tried to find out why we come to this point that chiefs are politicians as well as administrators . If they spend the whole week here all work is being pilled at home . So don't listen to make arguments that they have representatves there at home . These are born leaders they must go into the question of administration at home personally . This they can't do on Saturdays . They can't do on Sundays . Ultimately they have to do that on Mondays before they come to the Parliament . And if he comes here late we say a chief is late he must be fined , that is too rediculous . My emotion has nothing to do with the firing of dikgoŝi . But we are going to get a solution even if some of them are not there . The work of the Parliament must go on .

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THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Honourable member I don't want to put myself in trouble . I want to see that motion honourable House . I don't see the reason why that motion could not be written down and can be brought here . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Speaker could I help? This House is a very responsible one , and it is the responsibility of this House to see that steps are taken when there are very very urgent things . But nevertherless there is a procedure that has to be followed in order to guard against certain things . If you go back to Rule 69 , 70 and the rest , you will find the procedure set out how an ordinary motion should be tabled . And before that type of motion comes to this farliament it should have been before the Cabinet . And we understand there is a very urgent motion now by the hon . Mr. T. Bopape . But it is his duty that for the sake of the urgency of his motion he should consult with the Speaker and convince him that you are bringing this motion not just to write and put up a motion . This matter is very important . We learn it is connected with land and land is very very urgent and very important . But it would do this House good if the hon . member would just write the motion and hand it in to the Speaker for a few minutes to read . Well I was trying to put it to him that it is his right now because the matter is ver urgent that he could just write it out and hand it out and hand it in to the Speaker and then the Speaker says adjourn the House . The honourable House I am not refusing the motion to come to this House I am convinced I'll have to meet the hon . Mr. Bopape and we discuss this motion and it will come tomorrow . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Honourable House we have now disposed of all the questions that had to be answered . And it is now that we go to Committee Stage . I don't know whether the Chief Minister still has questions to answer . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Deputy Speaker and honourable members , I have no doubt in my mind that we are here committed to obey the Speaker . If we do not obey the Speaker then the Speaker must deal with us . You have given us the ruling that the motion will be attended to by you because you are in the first place a responsible person for progress of the preceedings in this House . If you try to please everybody here you will please nobody . And I want to say in earnestuess you must put your foot firmly down that is what Speaker do throughout the world . That is to say where people are adults , we are here prepared to listen and to go by your guidance in this House . And we are quite prepared to wait long enough for the motion to go through you to your satisfaction . And indeed if the motion is such an urgent nature it should be respected by the one who is moving it and those who want to listen to it . It is certainly vey delicate I take if it is as urgent as all that it is also an delicate as all that . If you rush through it and you make mistake , do you know the consequences will be yours . I won't BELONG to these members who are at you . And Lebowa will hold you responsible especially that you have the power to say no and finished . If a member wants to talk out of this House just like that even without your permission , surely I take it you have the remedy for that . And all responsible members here are prepared to do their job peacefully and seriously . And I don't want you Mr. Deputy Speaker to expose yourself to redicule and to unnecessary blame . You have the right to tell us keep quite in the House . And to confront us with the order paper . An extraordinary motion that may come here must be

with your consent . And I take it Sir you have the right to exercise authority . We will certainly have to listen to that urgent motion at the time when it satisfies you . And we don't need to be threatened or to listen to menacings remarks and you are listening to that patiently . I think you should take steps now and restore the House to order . There are very responsible senior people here with full responsibility for the progress of Leboba . And we are anxiously waiting to hear that particular motion before us tomorrow morning . Somebody says a clever man changes his mind . When it is necessary you don't just change your mind just for the sake of changing it . When it is appropriate . And it is not appropriate now in your judgement . Mr. Deputy Speaker please let us get an with the work we have here and we will listen to that very special motion tomorrow morning . I am quite prepared as for my part to listen attentively to whatever arguments . this honourable House will have . I have got an open mind as you knows Mr. Speaker . And a large number of the honourable members have open minds as far as I know , and patience always paid . Impatience has brought disaster . And precipitate action motivated by emotion , has brought disaster and Lebowa has got three to four million people . We don't want to endanger the distinios of that great number of people by taking a rush action . I want to appeal to you Mr. Deputy Speaker , please let us get on with the job before us . Mr. Deputy Speaker .

THE

HOUSE

mittee .

GOES TO

COMMITTEE

STAGE .

THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable House the House is now in comWe shall call upon the hon.Kgoŝi P. Nkadimeng .

KGOŝI P. NKADIMENG : Thank you very much Mr. Chairman . I will make a bit of repetition to expatiation due to the fact that the Minister of Interior was a bit perplexed to go on with my question . I will give this as an answer to him . You know geograhically where are we under this very illegitimate type of government . I still have few questions to ask . I like to know through Mr. Chairman that , is the Department of Interior making negotiations through Pretoria with trade units , if not so why? You know many people are so perturbed because of explòition of man by man , by one system of pigmentation . How many within ; Lebowa were allocated bursaries for our future geoiogist ? Teaching someone how to drive . I would like to know the validity of Lebowa Transportation Board under the Bantustan type of government? Just open on page 9 of this policy speech of the Minister of Interior? If you read it , it says the chairman and the members of the Board of that very Transportation Board are undergoing training at present . They attend all meetings of the Republican Transportation Board as observers . When one is in a state of pensive mood you know he thinks of this type of thing . You are an observer and you are the so- called government on any type of this bantustanism . To My mind is a fatique we are really bored as we are regarded only as state workers . When is your department going to do away with the concessional_privileges than national rights in your department and if not why? According to the Minister's speech there are posts which need to filled . Those posts are to be filled and where do you get the money hon . Minister? I am aware the money starts from the Chief Minister up to you Ministry .

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How many churches are there in Lebowa which are affiliated to the World Council of Churches? What is the cause of the so called illegal strikes especially amongst Lebowans within the territory itself or outside? Non-White or Non -European or Bantu term? What steps are taken by your Ministry so as to expedite the installation of telecommunication in Lebowa? What steps your Ministry take regarding multiracial beauty contest? Thank you Mr. Chairman .

MR . M.J. MAMETJA : I want to question the Minister why they remove other people from certain areas? There at the Downs it is said it is the place which have been bought for Lebowa. I request that a hall should be erected for us at Lenyenye so that we should nat suffer if we have meetings . We again request that a stadium should be built there . KGOBI J. MAHLANGU: Thank you Mr. Chairman . I have only one question in connection with pensions of the old people . I want to know how these pensions are handled , I wa..t to know how will you consider the point of earning money for injury if one happens to get injured at his job? Why should they terminate the payment of my old woman who was receiving this pension .

MR . E.D. MABOTJA : I do't understand the map given to me . I came here to talk about Mathoks Location and it has not been included on the map . Points which I would like to discuss I will discuss them after we have discussed about this map . KGOŜI K.P. PHASHA : Mr. Chairman I have three questions but they are those which I want to ask our Minister . I want to know who makes the estimates? Secondly we would like to know about the scales of our secretaries of the House and interpreters and if our interpreters have daily allowance as we have. KGOBI M.E. MOGASHOA : It seems the hon . member is confused as to which department is he questioning . It appears as if he is generalizing them . As he is speaking about estimates , each department is making its own estimates so that he must point out which one he is referring to . MR. S.S. MOTHAPO : When it comes to the parliamentary staff , the whole staff falls under the Chief Minister's vote . Therefore the questions should be directed to the Chief Minister . KGOĜI K.P. PHASHA : Mr. Speaker in actual fact I direct this question to the Department of Interior for this reason . And I am prepared to be called to order . I can't understand any mistake if I say the Department of Interior forms a staff . If it is really the one which is responsible for the staff , then I am saying the truth when drecting the question to its Minister . If I am out of order it shows that this Department of Interior does not care for the staff but the Department of Chief Minister. Therefore I want to know from this department how are promotions done and who is responsible for that? Is there any body in the Lebowa Government or in Pretoria who is responsible for promotions , of the Lebowan staff? If it is so what are the qualification needed? People who deserve promotion are those who have worked for how long? How are they considered? The fact is that I don't see anybody being promoted this year . I thank you Mr. Chairman .

203

MR . S.P. KWAKWA : Mг . Chairman a further question I want to put to the Minister of Interior is whether there is any control in the use of L.G. cars . I am asking this question because we often see them in doubtful circumstances . They are often found at odd places at times on odd days carrying odd passengers moving to add directions . Even last Sunday I saw one of them parked at a place where I wondered if Lebowa had connections with that place . MR. M.E. MALOMA : Mr. Chairman just help so that people shouldn't waste time for all that he is saying is controlled by the Department of Works . Mr. Chairman I am requesting that the Speaker should bring forth this matter during the time of the Department of Works becuase it is the one which has a concern on this matter .

THE MINISTER OF WORKS : Mr. Chairman I would allow the hon . member to present that matter in writing . I will answer him later . MR . I.M. MODJADJI : Mr. Chairman I don't have many questions . I have two or three of them . I wish to ask in connection with townships . Mr. Chairman in 1969 there was an Act passed in connection with townships which stipulated that when the town council starts operating in a township all the work should be transferred to it . Now Mr. Chairman the day before the hon . Minister has told us here about townships which have town councils . I want to know if the already established town councils do perform all their jobs? Are there town councillors who are responsible for settling people in a township? The unlawful removal of people residing in the township? Does the council work all these matters? The unlawful occupation of land and building in a township? The management and control of the township including the priority observed in the allocation of residential facilities? Has the town council powers of allocating sites? The erection and use of dwelling and other structures and the removals or destruction of unauthorised or abondoned buildings or structures? In other words you find certain houses not been cared for by any body . And you find the council doing nothing and all the matters attended to by the magistrate . The allocation of sites for churches , schools and business purpose . These Mr. Chairman you find the magistrate attending them . Why the town council doesn't have powers to look in the maaters of breweries? A council should be granted powers to erect beer halls . Thank you Mr. Chairman . MR. N.R. MAMPURU : Thank you Mr. Chairman . Since this morning I have learnt lack of respect and order of this House . A Book which has been brought here is not on the Order Paper . It shows that people are prepared to tkae one by surprise because they present what our Cabinet never discussed . What we see in the area in Moutse which they gave the Ndebeles .

THE CHAIRMAN : Order hon . member I thought you were making an introduction to come to the policy speech of the Minister of Interior . What you was just saying now it quite irrelevant . Continue with something else .

MR . N.R. MAMPURU : Thank you . It means I must talt the way in which case of this book has caused something . MR . N.R. MAMPURU : What discouraged me is that I have seen Mr. Chairman as the leader without powers. If he talks they interrupt him . Now , this has taught me that there is no one who can intervene in our quarrels here . Because I see they are just making noise and there is no law which they obey

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Minister .

THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . member direct your question to the His pen is ready but he is not making the use of it .

MR . N.R. MAMPURU : Thank you . Here is my question . I wanted to question him about those people who are paid when they are old . Now I see this matter being referred under the Department of Health . A person who must receive a pension should be of what age? I am asking this question for there are people who diserve pensions but are being told that they are still young . MR. I.K. MALEBANA : Mr. Chairman the hon . member Mr. Modjadji has said what I wanted to say but I may just add about the matter which suprises us . The township councils are exercising the whole powers given to them except here at Seshego . That's what we wanted to know why this one has been deprived of the whole powers? Is it not similar to other town councils? I will request the hon . Minister to explain to us fully about this matter . Thank you . MR . H.M. MODJADJI : Mr Chairman my question are not long ones . Mr. Chairman at Ga - Kgapane there was an order of kicking people out of their houses . I want to know if this order comes from his department or the town council? People are being removed out of their houses and some have already got out . Secondly there was rule that if you don't have a wife you won't occupy a house . Now people are getting married unintentionally . Is this order from you department? I want to know the qualification of a person for getting a house . I usually hear that Lebowa has no funds . How many sites a person is permitted to buy so as to build houses which can be hired by these people of Lebowa because they are suffering? There are people who have funds but don't know the procedure of buying sites . In connection with the houses which were built 10 · 15 yrs does the Minister's department fix the same as the recent ones? If there is depreciation in these old houses I want to know its percentage per year . An old house cannot be of the same price with a new one . Now if I can be given the percentage I will be able to know how much cost a house which was built on such and such a year . In 1965 when Kgapane started those houses if I am not mistaken they cost R448 . Now the day before I learned that they run up to R720 . Now I wanted to know whether even those of 1965 are R720 and those which will be build now will be R7207 If there is depreciation I will then know that those of R488 should be R200 . The bell has rung and I shall finish here my Lord . THE CHAIRMAN : tomorrow at 10h00 .

On that note this House will adjourn until

THE

17HOO .

HOUSE

ADJOURNS

AT

205

TUESDAY

1977 :

APRIL

THE

20TH.

The sitting commences at 10h00 The Speaker read the prayer. (The hon . A.S. Mahlangu , seconded by the honourable M.J. Phasha , moved that the minutes be adopted) . THE

SPEAKER :

Item 7

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Speaker and hon . members , I have a big announcement to make . The hon . House will recall that we have an outstanding trip to Moutse and I am glad to announce that plans for that trip are there . Honourable House will depart on Tuesday , the 26th of this month at 6h00 from Seshego to Moutse . It is a long way off and we have to start punctually if we have to complete our itinerary successfully . The buses will be ready here at 6h00 in the Seshego campus . I am confident that the Department of Agriculture and my department will be able to accompany us and also the Commissioner General . I may add , Mr. Speaker , that this question of Moutse is also as thorny as the question of the Eastern Transvaal . We have considerable difficulty there in connection with our stay with Mapoch people . I must be understood by the honourable House that when I refer to Kgoŝi Mapooh I do so in quotation marks . The root of our problem there is the head office in Pretoria . The head office is making Mapoch to behave the way he is behaving . The hon . House will remember very clearly that the consolidation scheme of Pretoria was not accepted by us in relation to that particular area. We have our own consolidation scheme which we recommended to Pretoria . Pretoria knows every standpoint with this regard . We have not had any discussions with Kgoŝi Mapoch . We have always being discussing with Pretoria . If you look at this map which has disturbed quite a number of us in so far as the consolidation scheme is concerned , we reject this matter totally . That is where we stand and Pretoria insists on doing things without consultations with us . I must emphasise that I have had occasions with the Cabinet to talk to the Minister , Mr. M.C. Botha , on this issue in the presence of the late Commissioner-General . Let me tell you this : it will be a surprise . Pretoria told me more than once that we think Mapoch belongs to Lebowa ; we have no area for Mapoch . Mapach has joined Lebowa and the whole question of friction will be done away with . The hon . Mr. M.C. Botha encouraged me more than once to try and get Mapoch to understand this . I made efforts to do so . I asked some of the influential personalities here to make contracts for me with Mapoch people . They did so and the promises were very very good , but each time after my contacts have been made through the instruments I have mentioned they become absolutely forgotten by Kgoŝi Mapoch .

206

I gathered that Kgoŝi Mapoch was made to do so by some of the officials in Pretoria . Kgoŝi Mapoch and myself did not meet . I conveyed this to the hon . M.C. Botha personally and I mentioned names of the officials who are winning our scheme with this regard and I said this in the presence of one of them . He kicked sky high and denied any participation in that regard . I nevertheless left it to the Minister to reprimand the official concerned and he promised me that he would call him to order . At a certain occasion there was a function at Groblersdal which I attended . I met representatives from the Mapoch head kraal . They indicated to me that they were willing to meet us and I asked my very influential contact to see to it that we really meet . I gathered that Pretoria caught wind of this kind of move and they ruined the contact . It should be understood hon . members that it is not at the top but somewhere in the middle where our problem is . Now I would like to afford this hon . House , the opportunity of going to see that trouble spot . I hope after that the House will , of course , debate the issue and after the House has given us their green light or their views on the matter , arrangements will be made to meet the Deputy Minister , Dr. Hartzenberg . If plans work out according to how they are made , Dr. Hartzenberg will be here for the opening of the sisal plant at Chloe . That will be on the 28th of this month and I will take the opportunity of discussing the whole matter with him . Further , I will ask my section to contact Pretoria that they should be able to send representatives to meet us at Moutse on the 26th that is when we get there on that day because I would like you to see them and they must see you and perhaps they should see you how you express yourself on the situation . I am saying so , hon . House to make you realise that we are not taking this question of boundaries lightly . I must now make an appeal to Radio Bantu that they should broadcast what I now say sufficiently tonight because I realise it is not only the Legislative Assembly as a whole that is a bit embarrassed , the M.P.'s from Moutse are seriously embarrassed and we would like to show that we are objecting to injustice that is taking place in this territory . I can only hope that Pretoria will be big enough to listen to reason this time because if Pretoria wants harmonious human relations and peace and tranquility in this country , she must listen to our aspirations . I am confident that Mr. M.C. Botha himself is aware , of the wisdom of cooperation with us and he's not antagonising us . I do hope that the Prime Minister , Mr. Voster , himself will be interested in the solution of this problem . This is not the time when they can take things by force from us . This is the time for cooperation , Mr. Speaker . Sir I am utilizing this time to throw a light on this troublesome question of Moutse and that this map must not be construed to be a map which we have accepted in so far as consolidation is concerned . I can only reiterate that the wishes of this hon . House regarding consolidation are very well known by us and by Pretoria . We emphasize the wisdom of having our wishes listened to and the whole scheme of consolidation revised by Pretoria and by the Legislative Assembly in Cape Town . I have no doubt that the M.P.'s in Moutse will do meet this hon . House on the 26th at the troubled territory . We would be very pleased to be enlightened by them in respect of this issue , Mr. Speaker , Sir .

207

THE SPEAKER : I should say this with much thanks that our yesterday discussion is over and that this has been solved . I shall call upon Mr. Bopape to sum up this very briefly . MR . M.T. BOPAPE : I must say this with much gratitude that our problem of consolidation has been solved . The members from Moutse were greatly affected . I should also believe that the whole House was deeply involved . I now represent the hon . members from Moutse by passing this word of thanks to the hon . Chief Minister in summarising the whole problem openly . I must also say that we are very thankful for the protection we are promised for this weekend when we are going home . I should believe that before we arrive at home our people shall have heard every solution of the problem . Ours will be just to inform them that they should wait for this House for clarification . I must also thank the Chief Minister for saying that they will meet the Central Government hereafter . I also thank the emphasis made on the speech by the Chief Minister concerning our grievances . As a representative of Moutse , I won't spent more time on these deliberations . Thank you . THE SPEAKER : We are through with that one and we may now continue with item 8. Before leaving this item there is an important issue that these honourable members should understand . I will ask Mr. L.C. Mothiba of Thabamoopo to explain this issue . MR . L.C. MOTHIBA : Mr. Speaker , ever since we started three years ago the hon . members always used to write notes to the Secretary or to the Whips if they were absent in this House . We have always accepted that as long as the member was absent on an official work he will be paid for that day . Mr. Speaker , it has come to our notice now that we have been doing a wrong thing all the time . When this was brought to our attention we realised that our own Act of Lebowa Payment and Privileges of the members of the Legislative Assembly does not allow that . What happens is that we meet the proviso for salary with the allowances . Mr. Speaker , I therefore have to make the hon . members of the House to be aware that from now on members who are not present in this House - it doesn't matter whether they have gone for official duties or not - will not be paid allowances for the day . You will rember that our provisions that if a member is not present and his report is not received he loses his allowances and the amount from his salary which is equivalent to the day's payment . What is going to happen at the moment is that a member will be required to give a notice that he will be absent so that the amount of the salary of that day should be paid to him . Otherwise he will lose the daily allowance plus the amount which he is entitled to for this salary that day . Section 3 of the Lebowa Payment and Privileges of the members of the Legislative Assembly Act of 1973 says that if a member is not present whether on official duty or not he will be entittled to any allowance except - this is only an exception - in connection with the business of the Legislative Assembly that if this honourable House should decide that certain members from a committee and go somewhere for two days or so they will still be entitled their allowances for the day .

208

If it is not for the service of the Legislative Assembly there is no payment whatsoever for the allowance . Mr. Speaker , we are bringing this to the attention of the members of this House because sometimes other members approach either the Secretary or the whips as if the report they gave did no reach the table and so on and so on . Thus we try to cut this issue off to make them clear where they do not have the rights . If a member is sick for the whole week he will only be entitled that week's salary but not allowance for that week . If the Speaker or the Secretary is not notified that week , then he loses both that is allowance and the salary for that week . We really want the hon . members to be very clear about this so that if a member is absent we should know . The letter must come so that he can be entitled for the salary for that day ; but if the letter is not there , then he loses the salary for that day . For those who want to read further , they can read in our Section 3 ( 1 ) and ( 2 ) of our Act of Payment and Privileges of the members of the Legislative Assembly . You see , provision there is only made for the salary that if you are absent due to your illness or your parents or your relative's illness you are entitled to the salary only and not the allowance . So let it be clear to the hon . members that this is the position that in future we do not inconvenience the Secretary that he did not pay me for this day but I gave him reasons and so on and so on . THE SPEAKER : Seeing that this Act was made and passed by you in this House , it is for your own advantage to remember this Act always . We shall now continue with our Order Paper . ( Interjection ) Order! you have this Act in your hands . Go and revise that and if there are any amendments you will like to make , you may do so next time . Let's continue with item 9 , 10,11 .

MR . S.S. MOTHAPO : I want to give a notice , Mr. Speaker , that I will move a motion concerning amendment to the Act of Payments and Privileges of members of the Legislative Assembly during this sitting . MR .

M.W.

KGATLA :

With some facts ;

he is seconded .

THE SPEAKER : You must remeber that a notice of a motion is never seconded . After the motion has been read it is then that one can second it . Anyway you can still do that . And remember to give us that motion early so that we can read it . KGOŝI T.J. MOTHAPO : Mr. Speaker , I am giving a notice that I will move a motion about the increment of magoŝi's salaries . The motion is already in your hands , Mr. Speaker .

THE SPEAKER : I think , before we continue , the hon . the Chief Minister has asked to give us an explanation of the royal allowance . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Speaker and hon . members , it is time that I did say I would react to the question of the royal allowances . This matter did come before this House . It will be well remembered that when it was first touched upon we were advised that the matter was so simple that we didn't require an Act of this House , that the instructions from the Chief Minister , the Minister of Finance was sufficient to effect the matter .

209

Nevertheless the House proceeded to make a Bill and the Bill went through this House and was submitted to Pretoria for the State President to sign . Together with the other bills that bill did not get the signature of the State President and it was referred back to us. It was stated that it was because we did not follow the procedure of consulting with the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development on the Bill that had serious and heavy financial matter . It was further explained that the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development has to go himself to the Minister of Finance to negotiate for funds . This is therefore a long process . Nevertheless this matter was taken up again by the Cabinet and myself with the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development . After a long and protracted odd occasion on the subject , the Minister of Bantu Administration and development said that he saw the Lebowa's view point in the matter . But he said if he grant it that the Lebowa get what it wanted regarding the royal allowances , it will be necessary for him to give similar permission or similar authority to the rest of the Homelands . At that point of time he said he had no funds , but he made certain concessions . He agreed to the concessions and the representation we made to him . Firstly he wanted time to say. something in the matter because he realised that the stipends that were paid to the magoŝi were inadequate with the rise in prices and the escalating cost of living . But he then said that he was making the arrangement to allow the increment of magoŝi's stipend throughout the Republic . He could mot just do it in respect of magoŝi in Lebowa . He said he was going to cover the whole Republic . We accepted that view that was half a loaf . In addition he made a further concession that to meet the case of Lebowa he would allow that the magoŝi who are members of Parliament here should get their stipend too . At that time the magoŝi who are M.P.s in this House were not receiving stipend at all . On the contrary , they only ' received their sessional allowances as M.P.'s as well as their salaries as M.P.s. So the effect of that concession was that they should get the salaries as usual and their allowance as usual in addition to the stipend . There too we accepted the circumstances . That is how far the hon . the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development would go in the matter . So he was given the opportunity to nive effect to those concessions and I take it that the various stipends concerned are deriving some benefit from the concessions , in other words the magoŝi who are M.P.s in this House and the magoŝi outside have benefited from that two matters . But Mr. Speaker , I must emphasise we did tell the hon . the Minister that although we were receiving the concessions he was making we would come again with this matter . In my opinion , therefore , we have a duty to do . We have a homework and in my view it is not necessary for any motion to be passed because we have to go back to him . We have to do our homework and we know we have it . THE SPEAKER : Honourable House , we have now arrived in a state where the House should now move into the Committee Stage concerning the Lebowa Appropriation Bill .

210

COMMITTEE

STAGE .

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEE : Honourable members , we shall proceed from where we left yesterday . You will still remember that you were still putting up some questions to the Minister of the Interior . MR . M.J. PHASHA : Mr. Speaker , I would like to ask through you the Minister for the Interior as to when will it be possible for the Lebowa people to buy some shares in the wholesalers possessed by the B.I.C. ? Mr. Speaker , I learned from reliable sources that Lebowa Development Corporation is about to get into business of bakeries in which members of the public will be allowed to buy some shares . I am not yet sure whether the L.D.C. has taken over the wholesalers previously owned by the B.I.C. like Malait , Koringpunt and Bushbuckridge . These wholesalers are mostly supported by Lebowa people and as such I feel Lebowa people deserve some shares and the interest . Mr. Chairman , through you I would like to be enlightened on that matter . MR . P.L. KEKANA : Mr. Chairman and honourable members , I don't have many questions . I have heard the Minister for the Interior yesterdaysaying that there will be mining factories which will be opened in this homeland . Now that these mines are going to be opened some villages , are these villages going to be removed? If these villages are to be removed , are the owners going to be subsidised? If there will be any subsidy , what about the Bochum areas which we have bought? You must pay the people concerned , the money for the soil , isn't it? Cocerning this issue , he will reply me during his time for answering . Coming on the question which Mr. Phasha has asked half way , I will like to know of which the B.I.C. and the L.D.C. is monopolising on the business of beer halls and buses because some black owners of buses have been deprived of these buses? In every Lebowa township there is not a single beer hell which is owned by a Black man but by the B.I.C. or the L.D.C. I it is true that we in Lebowa should work like in Russia , then the owners of the buses and those of beer halls should be deprived of that because these people of B.I.C. maintain that they can lend some money to own some buses ; but when you become unable to manage them , they take the buses away . My appeal is that these people should lend our people in the townships some money to buy beer hall . Secondly , I should appeal to the Minister of the Interior to consider the thirteen districts 20 that they should have telephones because they are valuable when the people are sick or they want to phone for an ambulance . Another appeal concerns the officer of the Minister for the Interior . As your people are interviewed or helped through windows at your offices , this is my request that there should be notices and writings on the windows to show different sub - offices with their different duties so that people should not be told , after queuing for a long time , that they should go and form another line at another window . When I am going to pay my tax there should appear the word , "tax" on a particular window .

211

( Mr. P.L. Kekana was reminded by the Chairman that the question of tax was pertaining to justice . ) Still on the question of your offices the Minister for Interior , at my place , Mokerong , we appealed that we should have shelters for the sun and rain at the offices . Instead of making the real shelter , you have just piled a bunch of aloes on top of wooden stand . They are now rotten and stinking and you still maintain that they are shelters .

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : repeating the question of shelter .

Hon . member are you not

MR . P.L. KEKANA : No. I am reminding him that which is available is rotten . None has saied about the rotten one . You can go there personally Mr. Chairman , you will find that they are stinking and they are still maintaining that are shelters . The last question Mr. Chairman is about the issue of the calling cards . How are you going to help those people of the calling cards? KGOŜIGADI J. MAHLO : I have heard the Minister for the Interior saying that Kgoŝi Malatji will no longer control the Namakgale Township . I am very thankful to hear that because there are problems at Namakgale . I am saying this becuase there are committees which we do not understand . We are paying heavily for our children concerning the Kgoŝi's kraal . By the way , if a person from Sekororo goes to seek a job at Kgoŝi Malatji , that particular person's reference book is to be issued with Kgoŝi Malatji's signature and thereafter the person is supposed to pay R10 . Secondly , since I have heard from the Minister for Interior that there will be an industrial development in Lebowa , he should not forget to employ our children . I should also advise you that there are certain magoŝi whom after we have denied their business sites and then they come over here at Seshego . Such people should not be given any consideration as they are too selective about allocation of businesses to the people . The Minister should keep on turning them back . KGOŝI L.L. NTWAMPE : I would like to thank the Minister for the Interior for promising us that there will be mining factories here in Lebowa . I should also remind this House that Rome was not built in one day . By that I mean that there should be nobody who says that this should be done at once and his place Sekhukhune , etc. should be developed immediately . We should all say that our place Lebowa should be developed . On the same point , I would like to know whether the Minister has visited our places . If he did , what did he see? If he didn't , what did he hear about them? I am speaking so because there is a story about Praktiseer Township . The only people who have tried their best there are those of Agriculture . They have built a better office , a beautiful office . What have we done . There are magistrates and clerks whose houses are not properly roofed . At some occassions when it is raining you will have to stand up on your feet . What kind of life is that for a public servant?

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Have you ever visited that place? Moreover it is a new office which has just been built and it is bigger than the one at Sekhukhuneland as we have heard yesterday . There are , certainly , mines at that side . If the people of Sekhukhuneland do not pay , I do not blame them because they do not have a mine . You have notice that we are from the east ,, and that the wise men come from the east and not from the west . I therefore remind you to attach my name with Praktiseer in future and no more with Sekhukhuneland . Coming to the planning of the houses around our locations , I would like to know whether the Minister is impressed about these match box houses .. Why should he not insist on the plans of houses such as in Lebowakgomo for every township ? The mines are building beautiful houses for the people and what about you? I have got you today . You must bear in mind that we are not like the donkeys which do the same thing every time . Our children would not like to stay in these same houses. Show us the way and we will follow you . Those mine that is the Frech Company do not demand a lot from you . Yours is to tell them exactly what you want . I am surprised to hear that there are Magoŝi whose reference books should be signed . Those people who sign these books need only to be reprimanded . Mine is to say that whenever a person decide to fall under us , he must be registered . The Kgoŝi who gets a message through the interpreter does not get the whole and true story . ( Mr. L.L. Ntwampe was reminded by the Chairman to be specific and relevant to the point) You will pardon me Mr. Chairman when I am irrelevant . What I am trying to say is that these people want to be guided and nothing else . The French Company people are the better people . If things do not go on the correct channel the blame should be laid on me . They and I have agreed that whenever they want to build a hostel or houses in our township they may do so . But in the time being they will temporarily own the building until we decide to take them as the land is Ours . I will like to end up by saying that Lebowa should not be proud of this because we do not have the capital , we are still depending on the Central Government shares . We always say steady but sure . THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Before the honourable Kgoŝi Malekane speaks, I want to remind the hon . members to avoid repetitions and to be relevant . We are dealing with Interior . The Minister for the Interior is having his pen and is not writing anything . I am sure in a minute you can put 10 questions to him . But if you go via Mafeking , via Gaberone , via Kibi and them come to Seshego , then you will have wasted more time .

KGOŜI M. MALEKANE : My question is about the youths who leave from the magoŝi's places and then go to the townships around Lebowa here . Do the magoŝi concerned have any more power over the ruling of these youths? I am asking this question because I see nowadays many young people flocking to the urban townships . At Magoŝi's places there are collections like tribal levy which is paid at the tribal offices. Now that the youths are living in towns who is going to pay this levy ? The Kooŝi will ultimately rule his only aged people .

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I also foresee some troubles during the time when the youth is to take over from his aged father - a kgoŝi - or when he is dead . He will not have some companions to discuss with or guide him because his friends will be scattered in towns . Through you Mr. Chairman , I need an explanation from the Minister of Interior . KGOĜI E.M. MOGASHOA : On a point of order Mr. Chairman . I think at this stage you must direct this House to what is to be discussed or to be queried . The speakers should react upon the Minister for the Interior's speech . What they are now speaking is not in the same direction with what is expected from this House .

clause .

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : We now go to clause by I suppose the members accept Pages 9 , 10 and 11 .

MR . M.W. KGATLA : On page 11 ( 2 ) ( c ) .... public celebration and functions . I realise the Minister last year asked for only R200 and this time he is asking for R25 000. What kind of public celebrations and functions are these that we must go and use R25 000? THE MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman , this is a good question by hon . member . In fact my department really asked for more than R25 000 , but that is all what we could geti for number of years attempts were made to make celebrations whereby the Lebowa flag will be introduced . Early last year our people in town even suggested the date when such celebrations would be held , but because of financial limitations we were not able to allow that because there were celebrations all over the Republic of South Africa when the flag of the Republic was raised . These celebrations were held in schools , tribal offices and everywhere . Because of financial limitations , Mr. Chairman , the celebrations will be held at selected places and that is that . But then Mr. Chairman , unless this House otherwise directs , it is envisaged that we have a central feast somewhere where all the people will get together and hoist up the flag . Mr. Chairman , I think it was an omission on my part , I should have included this in my policy speech . Now I am grateful that the honourable members Have called my attention . (The honourable members accepted this and hence the discussions continued) MR . M.J. PHASHA : I want to know about the R30 000 concerning the office at Nebo and the safes . Mr. Chairman , I wonder whether we are going to have a new office there because all the offices have safes and furniture . MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Let me say this Mr. Chairman , my department is responsible for the buying of furniture and other equipments for other departments . When you hear that we will buy new tables and that we are obliged to increase the sum of R20 900 to R30 000 in that the price of these tables is too high , they are expensive .

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( This was accepted by the whole members .

Thus item 10 ) .

MR . W.M. KGATLA : On item 10 Mr. Chairman , we differ every year and I think I would also like to have the explanation of the leader of this territory on this issue . As from 1969 we have been encouraged to take out this citizenship certificate . I never wanted to interrupt the Minister for the Interior yesterday when he was answering the question on citizenship . This is a reality and pracical and it was happening outside and not in this House despite the fact that we say Lebowa is a multiracial territory outside and not inside . We experience the difficulty right here in Lebewa when the Tsongas and the Vendas , workers of Radio Bantu , wanted to by houses in Lebowakgomo ; they said , when you do not have a citizenship which identifies you as a N. Sotho you cannot get a house . That is under your department the Minister of Interior . The authorities of Radio Bantu can only hire houses for their people in Lebowakgomo but those houses cannot be owned by those people . In one of the forms that have been printed recently by your department , the Minister for the Interior , if you have to renew a bottle store or a beer licence you must have a Lebowa citizenship card . In other words we are living a double standard life and I believe each year you set a certain amount aside for those people who are going to make applications for the citizenship certificates we are getting away of being the citizens of South Africa . The magistrates in Lebowa are encouraging people to take out these citizenship certificates . I want to magistrate and found 20 trays full of 100 of these certificates which have been applied for and are back . But my people hear this over the air that from your speeches they are not forced to take out these certificates hence , they do not want to go and collect these hundred of them from the magistrate . You wanted R24 000 last year according to the estimates . In other words this is the proceeding you have decided the population of Lebowa into two . You have got those that you have stripped from being the citizens of South Africa and made them the citizen of Lebowa and the rest you didn't take them up . Here you estimate R8 000 although you say half are taking and half are not taking . If you give me a correct answer here , I am going to move a motion that you take the R8 000 and you divide it for the education in case you come back next year , I say in case because you are being contrary to what you are saying in this House . That is why I have even invited the reaction from the leader of the territory to finish this thing once and for all . THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman , this is a fair question and I would like to suggest to the questioner that it is not difficult and he should not involve the head of the State , first of all I will like to comment on the premises that by taking the Lebowa citizenship you automatically cease to be a South African . Those of us who travelled overseas had to make use of South African passports , and we were accepted as such . Mr. Chairman , my department did not stop people from applying for citizenship cards . What we did last year was to arrange our priority and that was done because we realised we had R24 000 set aside for citizen cards and we realised we needed housing badly . So we have just shifted the moneys in order of priority .

215

Out of experience we know that on the average we spent about R8 880 per annum dealing with citizenship applications . R8 000 was enough to meet the cost of 1 700 people who applied for these cards last year . I must also mention that Pretoria asked the Government of Lebbwa to cut down their budget, my department was asked the same in order to save the vote on education . This was in line with the wishes of this House and my department is very proud to have been able to make a contribution towards the education vote . As far as reference was made to my department printing forms that demand citizenship when licences are renewed , I am blank . I will go into this matter . I was not aware of this and the House will remember that I did say in one memorandum that was brought to my table , I personally crossed out a citizenship card number and I said it was not required . I must also say that our officials in my department know about the Republican regulations . So there are amounts of more or less R8 000 and R24 000 Mr. Chairman . MR . L.C. MOTHIBA : MI . Chairman , if we really work as the Minister for the Interior has indicated according to priorities , I don't thint citizenship cards come before housing in any case . We will find out from the Chairman why our motion did not come through to take the R8 000 from citizenship for housing because a lot of people are suffering all over the townships . I do not mean Seshego only , but all the townships and they cannot get help anywhere , and of course there is inflation , there is no money , but here is money being spent on cards . Do you expect the same people that do not have accommodation to go out and take citizenship cards . I think it is unfair . Mr. Chairman , if priorities are to be arranged properly they must receive enough attention as they are required too . Unfortunately because we are already here , Mr. Chairman , the House will pass it but I am not happy about this R8 000 spent on citizenship cards . THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Honourable Members , just before the Minister for the Interior replies , I have asked the Secretary to check his record of motions . Somehow or the other the Secretary is perusing last year's record and the motion does not appear . Will the Hon . L.C. Mothiba have the opportunity of putting that motion again . ( Mr. L.C. Mothiba made an apology that he has made a mistake . The motion is not of last year but of this year . The Chairman noted this and promised him that there will be a checking on this year's record of motions ) THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman , I have to stand up and help you . The speaker here was very sincere and emphasised certain things but you will realise that we do not have the motion . Mr. Chairman , I want to indicate that it was my request that certain money be taken away from citizenship vote for citizenship and we realised that the minimum was R8 000. If the applications come normally this money would be sufficient , but if the people of Lebowa should decide to apply for citizenship during the financial year this money would not be enough .

216

Now this hon . House is putting my department in a predicament . It is a common knowledge that there is a law relating to citizenship cards and it is a common knowledge that my department has no authority to say that a particular law should not be obeyed . If I have removed the R8 000 meant for the citizenship requirements according to the law , from what expenditure could I meet the expense ? Mr. Chairman , I am in sympathy with the sentiment of the House . The money could be best used in education and other properties . I agree , but the House could assist my department very much by passing a resolution and even direct it that it should not estimate for this particular vote because the House , and not the department , could be stopping the citizenship throughout Lebowa . If citizenship were a law passed by the House , I could have come to this House with a proposed amendment . Now you want to accuse me of the laws of Pretoria . You know I have no power to resist the laws of Pretoria . Even this House when it does not agree with suggestions from Pretoria , it can only resolve that amendments be done . I have received a letter through my Secretary informing me that I must tell you about the people in cities who want these citizenship cards . To tell them to leave out the problem of these cards it will be an impossible task because they are too far from Lebowa . Now ; Mr. Chairman , I am asking a strong man of men to move a motion without insulting me that I should be empowered by this House so that we could take away this R8 000. I am totally agreeing with you ; but I am surprised when I am accused of being of conspiracy whereas I am not . (Mr. LoCo MOthiba , after inquiring about his motion and was told that it was not available , promised to draw another one and band it in within the time ) .

MR . M.J. RATALE : Mr. Chairman , I was still going to speak about this issue which has been discussed by the Minister for the Interior . You see , the people at the Urban Areas do not want these citizenship cards but they are forced by circumstances . They were told that they would not qualify as voters for the coming 1978 elections . Beside that , they are also compelled to take them if they want to retain their businesses . This issue revealed some chances during this previous period of Black power and it was said that the citizenship cards will be suspended for the time being . This really showed that people were not in need of these cards . We should just forget about this issue of cards . It will never happen again . It is no me to accuse our Minister for the Interior concerning these cards. We can't force him to buy these cards and later accuse him . You speak now of the money for the citizenship cards and of channelling this money into another project ; the Minister should be empowered by us. My suggestion is that we must do away with these citizenship cards . They should be abolished . We should wait for more or less 10 years to assess the value of these cards . If they are valuable , we can take them and if not why should we take them? Through you Mr. Chairman , I would like to move that these cards should be abolished and hence I am seeking a support from this House . THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE : On what the speaker has just said , I will like to add that I am not against the motion ; bul if this can be passed that will be an impossible thing to solve . The main fact spoken is that these cards should be suspended ; and now what about us who have already taken them?

217

I am saying this so that even though you may have a motion on these cards you should have a direction . Mr. Chairman , in fact I do not need any criticism on this point I am straightening it . MR . M.J. RATALE : It is time that you were reacting on what I have just said . I will briefly explain what I have thought . Though you have the citizenship card already , you can simply put it into a refrigerator to freeze up to the time we start considering its use or we have thought the other way round . MR . H.M. LESHABANE : Mr. Chairman , I just wonder why everybody is crying about citizenship card . Last year the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development has mentioned that citizenship card is not compulsory , you can only take it , then when you want you can suspend it without any problem . To me the citizenship card has been suspended already by Pretoria . The hon . Mr. Ratale will remember , in cities this is a prerequisite when you want a business . When you apply for a passport it should also be produced . According to the statements of the Minister these things are also suspended . When one wants a business , it is not required any longer . If the owner of the act has suspended this Act , why should we worry ourselves here in Lebowa?

KGOĜI E.M. MOGASHOA : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman . If I am not mistaken , the Minister for the Interior has asked this House what to do with this R8 000. That is what we should be discussing at the moment . MR . L.C. MOTHIBA : Mr. Chairman , we have drawn a motion , we must do something about the motion and the House should decide whether to accept it or not . THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : That is what I was going to do . Hon . members , just before the Minister for the Interior talks we have now on the table a motion by the Hon . L.C. Mothiba . He moves that item 10 of schedule ( e ) of vote 2 be transferred to building of homes in the townships that is the amount of R7 900. Mover L.C. Mothiba ; seconder M.W. Kgatla . ( The House accepted the motion and the question was completed ) . ( Mr. M.J. Ratale was requested to draw up the motion in the normal way in connection with the suspension of the citizenship card) THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Mr Chairman , I have promised the House that I will report on the forms that require citizenship number . The current forms are a reproduction of the old forms and this item was inserted in place of the identity practice . We , the department of the interior , are only working with identity numbers . The identity numbers both refer to reference book and citizenship cards but are not regarded as special and we are using them only for basic indentification . THE CHAIRMAN adjourn until 14h15 .

OF

COMMITTEES :

On that note the House will

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DISCUSSIONS

SUSPENDED

12H45

AND

RESUMED

AT

14H15.

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Honourable members , when the House adjourned we were dealing with section ( e ) . I take now that you have accepted 11. Do you accept 12? MR . M.W. KGATLA : Mr. Chairman , on 12 I noticed for the last two years or so that on purchases and maintenance of furniture of the members of Cabinet we do put aside R2 000 each year . When I asked this question last year I got the same yet the previous year we had the same amount though a new Ministry has cropped in and as such he has to get furniture . The information at hand is that the Ministers are so much interested in changing furniture like they are changing their handkerchiefs each year . I know not of a single man who has bought furniture that he would change it within 12 months if he really means what he is doing . The Ministers are still keeping their furniture as I have seen them three or two years previously .

No names , no petrol , no fire ; I understand if a chair is broken in a Minister's house he sells the whole furniture . In these inflationary conditions I am appealing that this should cease to happen . I am asking the Minister for the "Interior if he really used the R2 000 last year . If he has used the R2 000 I would like to know what happened to the old furniture bearing in mine that I have done investigations where we buy the furniture of the Ministry . I do not want a naïve reply here , I need a proper one . The honourable House will realize that if we can go at this rate of spending R2 000 just for maintanance because the hon . Ministers have furnitures in their houses , we will be losing a lot . I dont think even these high boys like Oppenheimer can do this per annum , changing furniture like he is changing his handkerchiefs . As such Mr. Chairman , I was just trying to find a very very simple and explicit answer to this question . THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman , he is using a very difficult language . I am trying to understand the meaning of the word naïve but I do not notice that the spelling is complicated . The allegations say the Ministers change furniture like gloves or handkerchiefs . I would like to give the honourable House this example . The furniture that is in the house where I live was bought in 1969. When new Ministers are appointed by the Chief Minister my department has been informed that the Department of Economic Affairs and my department take seriously what the Chief Minister says . I cordially appeal to this House Mr. Chairman , not to take this R2 000 because we need it . I have tried to indicate with the aid or an example that the Ministers are not carelessly handling their furniture . I appeal to you because if we can get the Minister of Economic Affairs , then he will be settled comfortably . ( Page 12 , 13 and 14 were accepted by the House ) . MR. P.L. KEKANA : Mr. Chairman , on Page 15 I see there "Recreation " . This reminds me of what has been said in this House last year about a place of " boiling water " near Mphahlele village . Did you take notice of that place?

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THE MINISTER FOR THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman , concerning " boiling water" near Mphahlele village , I think the House can inquire this from the Department of Agriculture and Forestry . We have just put that R100 to book that place as a resort place . It might be interesting to the honourable member from Mokerong that investigations are made to develop the Chuenespoort place as a holiday resort , but I cannot tell the details . MR . S.P. KWAKWA : Mr. Chairman , I have noticed that people who are offered tender for removing garbage in the township are usually given a contract of a year . Does the Minister not feel that a year is too short because a man who undertakes a contract like that goes into expenses of buying vehicles and all equipments they must use and before he has paid for it the contract ends . THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : You are now giving me trouble because these people come every year without complaints . It is true that if we can sign a contract for two years , that can enable them to purchase their implements ; but the people here at Lebowa when I tell them about a one year contract they feel satisfied . It will be far better if the people concerned can apply for the extension of the contract with the Department of the Interior . I wouldn't be against your drawing of a resolution , but on the other hand it is very difficult for any Minister even the Minister for the Interior to start changing arrangements without complaints . The House can negotiate with the Tender Board because it is responsible for this issue . MR . L.C. MOTHIBA : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman . It must be clear that the honourable member cannot give a notice of motion at this juncture . MR . P.L. KEKANA : Mr. Chairman , I would like to appeal through you that the Minister for the Interior should take much care for the people who ask for tenders , because last time I remember there were two people with 20c and 35c tenders respectively and that the 35c tender was considered while that of 20c was not .

THE

MINISTER

OF

INTERIOR :

That is the duty of the Tender

Board . MR. P.L. using our money .

KEKANA :

Never mind that .

The Tender Beard is

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Order honourable member . It is noted that the Tender Board will be notified in due course . MR. T.J. MOTHAPO : I just want to speak about 18. Why should you say that the people of Lebowa are satisfied about the regulations of the Tender Board - a contract of one year - while Mr. Ledwaba has not yet finished paying the instalment of his many trucks?

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Order honourable member . I think that is all clear to us . The ultimate end is the Tender Board will be notified in due course and a notice of motion will be given tomorrow.

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MR . T.P. MAKOLA : Mr. Chairman , I am on 20. I have this question to ask . During the Minister's speech it was indicated that a generous American firm has promised to undertake a mineral processing free of charge . So , how far are the negotiations ? THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Let me help . It wasn't that firm . It was the firm of communication telephones which will conduct services free of charge . In the very speech I have mentioned about the new methods used by Pretoria . If the honourable member was not present , I don't think I will have to repeat . MR . T.P. MAKOLA : Nevertheless , I still have the following question to ask : Mmadikoti Technical School has now been in existence for quite a long time . Has it perhaps produced geologists for us? If it has , are they being employed in this regard? MR . L.C. MOTHIBA : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman . As far as I am concerned the question should be directed to the Department of Education . Those are the people who know what education is taught at school , how much they have produced , etc. Not the Interior . (There was an interchange of words between the two members just spoken . The Minister for the Interior interrupted them by saying that he would not answer the question as such . ) KGOĜI L.L. NTWAMPE : MI . Chairman I should think that it would be better to investigate the productive mines . I have the maps for the different mining centres . We would have done justice to ourselves by postponing this issue because it is still the beginning . MR . M.W. KGAT : On 20 Mr. Chai LA rman I realise that the Ministe is speakin of expense . Last year he had a nomina sum of R100 . r My simple qug miscell estion here sis that I have realised that l aneous it is where electio a u w r n h e d i e c r h ns MR. M.J. PHASHA : On a point of order Mr. Chairman . It is irrelevant for the honourable member to refer us to item 14 when we have already accepted it .

MR .

M.W.

KGATLA :

I did not say 14.

I said 20 !

THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman , R500 is for unforeseen expenditure and if nothing crops up that cannot be spent .

MR . S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr. Chairman , there is something that confuses me . We are told frequently in this House that these estimates are actually done by our Cabinet and the standpoint of this Legislative Assembly is that we are not forcing the move out of the people in this territory . What surprises me is that this money is accommodated in our estimates .

MR. M.J. PHASHA : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman . Through you I would like to say that this is a repetition which is not allowed in this House . During the budget speech of the Minister this question was relevant to R20 000 on the vote and the Minister replied it fully . If the hon . member was absent in this House it is not the business of the House .

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MR. M.J. PHASH : Mr. Chair man what I want to know , as in A it principl we say no to this system , is why do we often accommoda te in our eestimate ? s

THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Let one start afresh , Mr. Chairman . When the road is constructed you may find that it is going through two or three families . And in the outlay of a new township for instance you might have to remove a couple of families to provide the site for the township . What makes us to provide R20 000 is this that sometimes Pretoria will move our people from outside Lebowa into and feed them for only three days . Whenever such a thing happens it is unfortunate , but it is within the duties and responsibilties of the Department for the Interior to provide for such possibilities . These removals are not made by us but by Pretoria . MR . E.M. MALOMA : Mr. Chairman , I just want to inquire about ( f) and 2 because I know that the land does not increase . The land should be arranged in such a way that people can settle peacefully . I have observed that the Minister for the Interior bases his supervision on towns like Seshego ; what about the chief townships at the rural areas? Under which section do they fall? If the people who are settled on a well planned land are removed to another place , by whom are they going to be paid? You must remember that the Department of Agriculture is there only for planning and not for paying . If it has completed its planning and determined the whole expenses , it refers these to the Department of the Interior for payments . Now , to this moment how many have been paid among those who are present? . THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman , I will start by (f) and 2 that is the last question : " How many has been paid by the Department for the Interior? I hope to have the answer by Friday . There was a question on the removal of the Spitskop pople . We don't have their file in our department . The questioner should try the Department of Agriculture for information . I appeal to these people who are removed to ask for a compensation from the responsible body for their removal and not from the Department of Interior . I will certainly report to the House as to how many people have been already compensated under the provision of this vote . MR. E.M. MALOMA : Mr. Chairman , the Minister has not replied to my question . He tells us about Spitskop . He should specify ; there are many Spietskop here in Lebowa .

THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman , when you are Holland speaking about Utrech you don't mean this one in Natal and when you are a member of Cape Provincial Council and you speak of Middelburg you don't refer to this one in the Transvaal . By that the member from Sekhukhuneland should understand which Spitskop I am referring to .

MR . E.M. MALOMA : Mr. Chairman , I am not sensitive . I can't detect which Spitskop is referred to because we have many of them in Lebowa . I am not speaking of Holland nor Cape . MR. M.W.. KGATLA : Mr. Chairman , when the Minister was answering to the question of the Honourable Rev. S.S. Mothapo he was speaking of supposition like : if the road goes via a family the family must be removed or Pretoria becomes unrealistic in removing people . You will have to take care of that . Now , my simple question concerns the removal of people . Last year you put aside R20 000 utilised in

the removal of a particular tribe or people .

222

Did you decide that people should be removed? people?

If so , who are those

THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : I have already promised this House that I will bring an answer by Friday . I will tell you how much we have spent from this amount and for the purpose thereof . MR . A.S. MAHLANGU : Mr. Chairman , I want to conclude this argument which appears every year in this House corncerning the removal of people in Spitskop in the area of Mahlangu . You should not worry the Minister for the Interior about the questions of removal .. I am the person whom should be asked about all these problems . These people are the people of Kgoŝi Sekwati who do not want to be ruled by a Ndebele Kgoŝi . Hence , there is none who has persuaded them to leave . They should not resort to this as means of getting money from Lebowa . They should face their own Kgoŝi personally . The honourable Tlaka should tell his Kgoŝi , the hon . Dithaba , that he should arrange with Kgoŝi Sekwati to come over here and explain why these people decided to leave this place . The Hon . Godfrey Sekhukhune should also go and tell his Kgoŝi Sekhukhune to come over here and give explanation why his people have left that place . If we can follow this procedure , I think problems will be solved . They should leave the Minister for the Interior alone . THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Hon . members , since the Minister for the Interior will give a reply on Friday , I think we will have to put aside this question . We will pass on to (g) MR . S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr. Chairman , here you have training and orientation of industrial workers . Realising that these people seek training and schooling as well as remuneration at the same time , are there not some of them who receive bonuses from the department while they are still learning? MR. P.L. KEKANA : I would like to know whether we are still going to discuss this issue of maps , Mr. Chairman . ( In reply , the Chairman of Committees told him that he will be notified)

THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : I would be pleased if you could bring this question of food . Anyway I will inquire whether they are fed . KGOŜI K.P. PHASHA : I will like to say something in addition to what Mr. S.S. Mothapo has said about food . If they do get some food , do they also get accommodation? (The Chairman of Committees notified him that he will get the details on Friday)

KGOŜI T.J. MOTHAPO : Mr. Chairman , my question is about administration . I just want to know who is the vice secretary at the moment or whether the post of vice secretary has been filled by a Black man . THE MINISTER FOR THE INTERIOR : Mr. Chairman , the honourable member Mr. Kgatla from Bolobedu asked me the question about the posts of the assistant secretaries .

223

I owe the honourable member an answer . I assume , the assistant secretary and the vice secretary mean one and the same thing . THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Do you accept the whole vote as it is , the honourable members , the whips , the Leader of the House? The head of the State agreed with this Chair that the Afrikaans idiom " belofte maak skuld " .must come into operation . Yesterday when the Chair hinted to you that you would be given an ample time you did not just agree . Now that you have hanged the matter for the whole afternoon the Chair gives you chance now to give comments . MR. P.L. KEKAN : When I asked the Chair A man , honourable members , I was looking at the map here . As we just received this map yesterday , I was still looking at it when I realise that two magoŝi that is Kgoŝi Seleka and Kgoŝi Shongoane have been placed outside the map of Lebowa . Now that we are busy erecting schools , it is clear that

MR . T.P. MAKOLA : On a point of order Mr. Chairman . I would not encourage this honourable member to discuss this matter in the absence of the people who have brought up this matter . I am speaking this because as far as I am concerned this matter was brought up yesterday by the Honourable Bopape of Moutse . He had a seconder and both of them are not around . MR. P.L. KEKANA : The honourable member , for your information , he is not from Moutse but a member of this House . I am referring to the observation on this map . Yesterday Mr. Mapudi wanted to speak about the land of Mothapo which does not appear on the map . He had to cut his story short . Now that I am speaking of a land which is excluded like Moutse , I am urging the Radio Bantu also to announce this matter . It is not possible to encourage the people of the excluded land to make some collections for the erection of the school and the surrounding wire for the camps as they will respond by saying that these things cannot materialize on nobody's land . MR. S.L. DIGASHU : It is with much distress to note that Kgoŝi Seleka's and Kgoŝi Shongoane's Areas are excluded from this map . If the planner of this map asked himself who was the first to come here in the Transvaal between himself and Kgoŝi Seleka , he wouldn't have excluded Kgoŝi Seleka's land . Mr. Chairman if it is Pretoria , when did she realise that Beauty was a White area? How long has Kgoŝi Seleka been there at Beauty? You can simply see that this map was drawn last year . Why were our grandfathers not told to leave that land? They start to tell people at this eleventh hour when I am already a grown - up that they should leave Beauty and Shongganestad as they are white areas . Mr. Chairman , this map should be returned to their owners ; it doesn't concern us . Our Central Government's office maintains that everything should be settled through discussions . We should meet the owner of this map , have discussions with him and he must tell us when Beauty became a white area . Mr. Chairman , in 1890 on the 27th October , my father had talked with Kgoŝi Seleka's grandfather. Where was white area at that time ? Why did they not remove the people concerned whilst they were still young and fresh ? Why today when some are dead , others are old and we are grown -ups ? I would like to move an impossible motion that this map should be returned to their owners before it can cause utter confusion among us .

224

(a)

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I cannot say that I am going to give you a very satisfactory answer . This BENBO is in fact an Afrikaans title which you get on page 3 of your publications viz "ʼn Ekonomies beskrywende oorsig ongestel deur die Buro vir Ekonomiese navorsining insake Bantoe Ontwikkeling " . That is how you get BENBO . The English version there of is " Bureau for Economic Research for Bantu Development " . I do not know who have the final responsibility for all this data and information printed in this book . But I think this research body is responsible . I am not so sure whether we are right in saying that we should mis these with the Department of B.A. & D. because this is a research department , it isn't a political department . It is an economic research project . Now , I believe the Department of B.A. & D. knows about this Research Bureau . So I believe we should address ourselves to the content of this , knowing pretty well that we are referring to the Bureau that did research and if we have any representation to make then we make the representations not to the Bureau but to the Bantu Administration because it is the only Department that deals with our affairs in over all . It may help Mr. Chairman to point out to the Hon . House that the question that is now agitating our minds is not in fact the substance of this as it is the consolidation plan which is bearing here . As to the economic potential of Lebowa the material here is very valuable ; it shows us what we have and that which we don't have . For years we had these minerals . They were not just discovered yesterday but strangely enough only when we started moving and thinking for ourselves the Research Bureau reveals that we have minerals . It was a dead secret of the White Government all the years . Now they are obliged to come out with the truth now that we have discovered ourselves . Well , I may say that at the economic side of it I do not really think we are going to be disappointed . What is really agitating our minds is that which came in this House about three years ago . If I am not mistaken three years ago it was when Mr. Ramusi headed a commission that went around trying to fix out the boundaries of Lebowa . The appointment of that commission was our reaction to the statement that came from Pretoria regarding the consolidation of this terrirory . Pretoria gave you this very thing as what will happen to Lebowa when Lebowa is reduced from 14 pieces to 5 or 6. This Hon . House totally rejected this consolidation plan . What BENBO has done was merely to go and take that map of the Republic of South Africa which was passed by the Parliament in Cape Town and put it there . It is not a new thing at all . The real problem now is that you have your consolidation plan unacceptable to Pretoria and Pretoria has a consolidation plan unacceptable to you . Now , what are we going to do ? That is the problem . When I saw this I said this publication will serve as a catalyst and lead to greater awareness and interest in the immense task ahead of us. The task was that we have problems of land . We must be increasingly aware of the fact that we cannot lose this land . The second was our agriculture potential and our mineral potential , because for years and years we have had our white colleagues here , but they didb't tell us this secret . Now , the secret is out and that made me go overseas because I thought to myself , however easy it may be , to use the Bantu Mining Corporation which we have ; we must have other experts who will come and assist us .

224 (b)

MR . L.M. MADISHA : We are now discussing a crucial issue and as such I don't know who is going to answer my questions because the owner of this map is not known . My question is that : Where was this owner of this map the whole time? I am asking this because this Lebowa has not started yesterday but it was started about ten years ago . If that land was a white area we should have been told to leave it before we join Lebowa . We were given this Lebowa Government while it was known that land was a part of Lebowa . Who could have given the Central Government such a wrong information ? By being here in this House it is because I represent the Seleka and the Shangoane people . Being a Lebowa person I would like to support the speaker who has said that this map should be returned to their owners . It is not fair that when we have promised the people to stay in a particular place we should later tell them to vacate . Thank you , Mr. Chairman . MR . W.M. KGATLA : Mr. Chairman , I would like us to page to the centre of this book where the map is .

MR. I.M. MODJADJI : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman . I am not against that suggestion but I would like to know whether we do agree with the contents of this book or whether we throw some riches away . THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Order , Honourable member . Honourable member maybe you were not attentive when we started . The honourable members are given a chance to tackle this book left and right .

KGOSI M.M. MATLALA : Mr. Chairman , I would like to know whether the book is from the Department of B.A. & D. or from BENBO . What is this BENBO ? This should be clear to us whether we are confronted by the Department of B.A. & D. or BENBO . Outside the cover here I see BENBO . Now , I would like to know whether this BENBO is another name of the Department of B.A. & D. so that we could face it directly . We should understand this before we can continue . THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Hon . member I think that is our line of direction . We want to tackle this book , but we must be sure to whom we are directing our questions . I shall therefore just ask ....... or is the Minister of Health in a position to answer that?

THE MINISTER OF HEALTH : Yes , I think I can give light in as far as this is concerned . I take it that BENBO is a part of wing of the Department of B.A. & D. That is the reason why on the first page and page 5 our Hon . Doctor is actually thanking them for giving us this information . That is also the reason why we therefore have to tackle the B.A. & D. which is responsible for the drawing of this map . I therefore think , Mr. Chairman , that objection must be directed to that very department . THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : I hope the Chief Minister will go a step further and even tell us what this BENBO really means .

225

Let me tell you this , when we reached Danemoor in the U.S.A. I found that the Bantu Mining Corporation has made contact there . So I was going to the wells which our colleagues used . And now for the first time in history the Bantu Mining Corporation that the whites established in this country is taking us very seriously because we now know what refugees to make and with whom communication to make . And now , they too , I think they will fold up their sleeves when they deal with this . So the problem the hon . House is this question of consolidation has now come to the fore ; we have our scheme that is unacceptable Pretoria has the scheme that is not acceptable to us . So what must we do? If you write to BENBO and say " BENBO we don't like your map " , they will laugh at you . It isn't their map , it is the map drawn by the Central Government . It is not BENBO that is going to remove Kgoŝi Seleka , it is the Central Government . It is not BENBO that is going to remove our people from Moutse ; it is the Central Government . I note something too that Ramokgopa is not shown here . Have you noticed that? And Sekgopo and other great men . It is not BENBO that is going to remove Kgos Mokoena from his farm ; it is the Central Government . What BENBO will do and all the other research people will do is just to accurately reflect the changes that are taking place. , And therefore the young politicians , the White politicians and the Black politicians must have a proper detente to solve this thing out . We all realise that what we opposed is still here and our M.P.'s from Mokerong are burning with fury when they see this , fury did so three years ago when we first discussed the whole matter . You remember , Mr. Chairman , that member after member , Kgoŝi after Kgoŝi in this same House rose to say we don't want to move , we don't want consolidation . I don't want to stop people from expressing their views that if we want to reach or achieve anything we have to open up first negotiations with Pretoria . It would appear to me diplomacy and the highest wisdom are required to get Pretoria to change its mind on their consolidation . It would not pay us , Mr. Chairman , to repeat our objection . The thing is , can we find a plan , can we do anything now to correct the situation ; w cannot do that with BENBO because it is a research , scientific body . This is a political issue to be decided by the governments .

MR. W.M. KGATLA : Mr. Chairman , if you page to the middle of this publication you will see the whole map in front of us here . If you look on your left hand where Bochum and Mokerong appear, it is block No. 1 and Seshego is block No. 1 also . In fact , Bochum , Mokerong 2nd Seshego are shown as block No. 1. Up north there you see Sekgosese and next to it you will see Bolobedu . Sekgosese and Bolobedu according to the Central Government and according to this map is one block , that is the second block . You can also see the whole block there which embraces Sebayeng , Mankweng , Thabamoopo , Sekhukhuneland , the whole block THE

CHIEF

MR.

M.W.

THE CHIEF separate pieces .

MINISTER :

KGATLA :

Are they not two pieces?

I wouldn't say so , Mr. Chief Minister .

MINISTER :

But Bolobedu and Sekgosese are two

2.0

MR . M.W. KGATLA : They look as two separate blocks , but they want to go and make them one block . Now you see Sekgosese there is Senwamokgope there and that is the place we went about trying to come to Bolobedu . They want to make that as block there including Naphuno No. 2 as the third block , Naphuno No. 1 as the 4th block and Namakgale as the 5th block probably and the whole of Acornhoek , Dingleydale , Shatale as the 6th block . On page 19 of the consolidation reads thus : " According to the final consolidation proposals of 1975 Lebowa is reduced from 14 geographical units to 6. " Correctly as the Chief Minister said if you look at Soekmekaar at Sekgosese there it is blocked but it is not shown as to whether people will reside there . In other words , these people must move from this place . The Ramusi Commission went all over the Lebowa and drew a map and that was rejected by Pretoria . Last year some of us were in Pretoria when a motion was moved in this House by ourselves here rejecting the Ramusi map of Lebowa . Some of us were very much interested in seeing the new map . After we have rejected the Ramusi map we should have drawn a map which we were going to show to Pretoria . But up to this moment there is no map . Immediately after Pretoria have rejected our map , it drew up this one . This map was drawn with the knowledge of the Central Government . During the Chief Minister's vote I said we should be aware of the fact that perhaps Pretoria and indeed this is what Pretoria is doing ; say we want more land , but do not tell what land we want , we do not have a map to can show what we want except to say we start from the Vaal to Limpopo . This is outdated , you can forget about it . Since 1836 with the discovery of Gold in Witwatersrand in 1860 the Europeans came over to the Transvaal and nobody ever sent them back and said this is my land , you are not coming in . They have developed the country as it is , now the Ndebeles came in also , the Shangaans came in also and now everybody is now living in the Transvaal . That is why I say those who are having the mind of paying we start from Vaal to Limpopo should forget becuase nobody is going to go out . We have got to make some means to live together in the Transvaal - like it or not . There is Mangope right now who is going to get part of our land when he becomes independent . Do you think you can go and tell him : " Gaan uit die Transvaal uit . " He will tell you to go to a psychiatrist to examine your head . The whole position as I see it now is a matter of drawing our own map on top of this thing we see in front of us here . With the full knowledge that the Vendas will never go back to Rhodesia . They do not need them there , they do not even know the places as much as we argue everyday that the Shangaans should go back to Portuguese ; forget about that . Let us draw our own map and on this particular map and try to make it as wonderful as it is here . To me it was a matter of trying to draw a line , accommodate all those in the South , that is including the Moutse people and continue with our line up to Seleka there and refuse his removal there . And we draw Gilead line from Mapulaneng right up across the Namakgale right up across Bolobedu , right up across to Sekgosese people and right up to Old Days . Geography people can draw such lines. Now , we go and fight with the Central Government to buy all these green land inside so that we make Lebowa .

227

That would accommodate magoŝi like Kgoŝi Ramokgopa , Kgoŝi Machaka , Kgoŝi Makgato to remain where they are now . Otherwise the Chief Minister has reiterated here that if we just say we forget about this matter and we do nothing else we just say BENBO in Pretoria there we do not want this , they will ask " What is that , that you don't want?" We mandate our Chief Minister to make a lot of noise when telling these people exactly what land we want and not merely say we want more land . That is an ambiguous sentence .

KGOŝI M.G. MOHLALA : Mr. Chairman , you can also realise that I am outside this map . The Leroro place , which is my residence , is between Acornhoek and Naboomkoppies and beneath it is Origstad which is a white area . Mr. Chairman , I would like to know whether the said Commission will do the same inquiry into our matter as it has dane so in the case of Sekhukhuneland and Mapulaneng . Mr. Chairman , I am just in a dilemma as I am not fighting for the land with a Black man as in the case of Mapulaneng but with a white man because of the fertility of that land . You can also realise , Mr. Chairman , that on that word Acornhoek they have written a plantation and that is the place where they have put their beacon . This has been our fort for centuries . Now , the Whites want to settle themselves there to see every where and we are obliged to leave the place . So what should we do? There is also a gold mine known as Golo . The mine is not operating at the moment and only the surface is used for the growing of crops . Last time when I was there I heard that one of our magaŝi , Kgoŝi Petrus Mohale has been attacked by setting his house on fire . Instead of the soldiers around to come to his rescue , ordinary people had tried to help extinguishing the fire . We did not want to fight them because we were not in favour of building our houses on that mountain . We knew that the mountain was part of nature provided to Lebowa . These Whites have built a Blood River dam . This dam is reserved for them though it is on the land of Lebowa and we don't bother ourselves about that . Yesterday , as I was not there , I found my people in great confusion and dismay as they were told by the magistrate that they would no longer be issued with business licences . When I asked him about this he told me that I should know about it . I therefore reacted to his word by informing him that I did not receive any letter or notice concerning this . He then agreed by telling me that I could only admit the applications at my Own risk . Consolidation should be made , Mr Chairman , but not that there should be a removal of people . At least there should be a consolidation between our land and Mapulaneng and the whole land should be called Mapulaneng . Mr. Chairman , if your commission can take this into consideration then there will be no more complaints . MR. H.M. LESHABANE : Mr. Chairman , sometimes we make some more mistakes by not correcting our own errors . The last speaker , Mr. W.M. Kgatla , has spoken a fact we have agreed that we do not want Ramusi's and his commission's map . So why can't we do our own? By the way , what did we say of what we want? I am asking you . If you say to the Central Government : "We don't want this consolidation , " Which one do you want? We should just specify exactly what we want . That will be the solution . We can do all the agreement and promises but we say Botlokwa has been removed , Sekgopo also that won't help us .

228

We can only just resort to one thing , a conclusion of a step to be taken . My suggestion is this : Lets appoint a commission which can inform us about the suitable and acceptable Lebowa which we are yearning for . As an alternative , we can just sit down and draw a map as we are able . Some will of course say it is a waste of money . Well , thats true , but how much funds do you lose when you are removed without being compensated ? You know the cost of removal and what is involved in the removal . Your furniture first of all fall into pieces along the way , your livestock die along the road before you reach where you are going . So , is it not a waste of funds in that way? If we are to waste money on another project on which we are going to waste money , then let us continue . Mr. Chairman and the hon House , people are listening outside and it is their feeling that you are wasting time on some issues . As I am standing and talking now , I am wasting funds . What do you think I am doing . I am paid every minute for the air which is coming out of my stomach . Mr. Chairman , the Chief Minister , the Cabinet and the House , let us do the correct thing . We should not leave all these on the Chief Minister so that he should be blamed alone . The Central Government says , give me the advice ; tell me what you want . Mr. Chairman , I think it is the time that we , the whole Lebowa people , should tell the Central Government that we want our land from the mountains up to the rivers . If we do not know the names of farms we should just say we want that mountain and that river . If things are impossible they should just give us our land ; you have also realised that separate development has failed . If it has really failed , we should just live together without any boundaries and we should go to Cape Town to discuss the problems of our land so that they the Whites ) should become aware that they have brought this problem . We can't just say we don't want this and that in this House . We should draw up what we want and present that to them so that we could face each other and expect that which might happen . If this suggestion that we should sit down and draw a map of Lebowa according to our interest does not succeed , then I should move that we should demand our land back naming it by the mountains and the rivers accordingly .

When I was still around the country in 1955 in Johannesburg , I met Kgoŝi Malatji at Phalaborwa and he told me that they (the Whites) have built the town at Phalaborwa and that he wanted that place . Thus we should name our land according to its parts . If there is none who seconds me I'll then move a motion . If the motion will be of no confidence I will take off my jacket and leave this House . THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Mon. House , attention is brought to the Chair that there are three important visitors from Vendaland . They are Messrs . J. Ramaike , M.J. Mphande and L.M. Tshivhake .

THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY : Mr. Chairman , I just want to clarify this House on this issue of the map . The Honourable members will remember that it is now about three hundred years since the whites have arrived here . When they were still there , they were surveying this land . They were ruling through votes and parties which we are now engaged with today . When each party has won the ruling , it made a research into the problems which it could maintain as its standpoint . They made a research about this land and its people as well as its riches . After compiling everything , water as well as soil , they then removed us from one place to another . Now that they have succeeded in taking all the fertile places they give us self governments .

229

You will still remember that when they were still busy collecting money for their government to become rich and strong , they were chasing us behind on horse backs . Now that they have all the money , they have stopped to chase us . Today they reveal , what they have done to us in the olden days , that whenever you want to rule and control people you must first deprive them of their food . You will note the hon . members that Lebowa is denoted by the colour on the map whereas the Gazankulus are denoted by the word . Where there is Gazankulu , the number is written and the word " Gazankulu " also appears . In the case of Lebowa they have a different colour and the number . You will also note that there are minerals such as coal at Seleka , according to this map and that these will be transported through a pipe via the sea to Richard Bay . Just because of jealousy , the Seleka people are commanded to leave that place . We can just draw a map and send it to Pretoria or draw a programme that there should be some members who will go over that side for discussions . If tomorrow you can plead with Pretoria for similar self government as that of Matanzima and Mangope that will be granted to you without delay as they know that you will be enslaved by them as you will have no food . This issue of land needs to be well thought of ; we should scratch our skulls to solve it . If we can just demand one mine which is on our land you will realise that Pretoria won't agree because they know that we will benefit from it . I will be very grateful if Lebowa Government can reject this self independence because it will be killing our people . Even the autonomy spoken about , will bring the same consequences to Lebowa people . What we can only do , is to achieve the minerals and nothing else . These are represented by numbers in the map . If you can just visit the Penge mine which is around Lebowa here , your lungs will become rotten . There was a village of Kgoŝi Selwane , it is no longer there . Those of Elandsdoring , Kgoŝi Mathebe and his people ; are no longer the people of Lebowa . Kgoŝi Seleka , Kgoŝi Machaka and Kgoŝi Ramokgopa as well as Kgoŝi Mohlala and many other places are no longer there in this map . Namakgale is not that side of the tar road but at the opposite side and it is not theirs . Mr. Chairman , it is a large portion of land which has been removed . Through you . Mr. Chairman , I would like to appeal to this House that it should scrutinize this issue very clearly and cast some objectives in the light of contact with Pretoria for the solution . Our people should not be removed from these places . I would like to conclude by saying that the Whites have been stampeding on us and threatening us and we don't know where to seek for refuge . We can't escape to Rhodesia nor Botswana but we will die in here . We should have some discussions with them so that we can have a fair and proportional share of this land . KGOŝI M.M. MATLALA : Mr. Chairman , if we can look at page 19 of our map , it is said that this is the final consolidation map ; this is not a silly sentence and they are not talking jokes that this is a final consolidation , they are really meaning it . This map and its information is complete and thorough . Once we continue to speak about this map , make some deliberations we will never reach any conclusion because we shall soon become fed- up . And once a man has lost his control and emotions , he never arrives at any fruitful destination .

230

We are representing the whole Lebowa as we are in this House . If we can hurry up and decide to conclude now or tomorrow we shall regret as this is a national issue and not a personal one . I would suggest that we should make provision for this and submit it as a task in a form of a homework which will have to be done by each of us at home with a fresh mind and organized thought and facts . We still have enough time . When we have thought about this and analysed every step it is then that we can delegate some of us to draw the correct reflection of this map in this very sitting . They will draw this until they have completed all the details of the map . If we can just form a firm and rigid body , agree to each other , we can face them directly and reject their map . I am still suggesting that we should suspend this issue as a homework as to provide ourselves with enough time to meet and produce something valuable .

KGOŝI M.M. MATHABATHA : Mr. Chairmn , we are today speaking of an important issue . When looking at this map we can simply deduce that the whites do not love us . Looking at the mines one can simply realise that place is not suitable for us . They are conditioned in bringing a racial clash between us . I am still on that point raised by the Honourable Kgatla that as we have rejected the Ramusi Commission , we should elect amongst ourselves advisers to discuss this issue properly before we can proceed with other matters arising . When I am looking at this map it becomes clear that this is the property of Lebowa . Being the liability of Lebowa we shall discuss with relaxed minds and sent our people to Pretoria to present this matter . If they do not want to accept it , you come back and tell us so that we can look at the wisdom of these white men . I was at Leruleng when I said that these people are going to dig underground and block this land and off they go . This is happening . I still remember when we had that Territorial Authority , our boundaries were ending just here at Pietersburg . Today they are ending a little bit further to show that they are defeating us . We know that they can defeat us but this is enough . If they find that you have bought a farm , they will instruct you to own the surface thereof while they will be owning the surface of your piece of ground . But we should share with them ; if not so something must happen . When I am looking at these deliberations and the new upheavals emanating , I cannot conclude that this will be the end . By the time we have made certain that there are minerals here and there , they have already marked those places . I wish we can continue living together with these whites so long as we can achieve the knowledge of this earth . I would also like to edge this House to sit down and make a thorough study of this map . We should cool down and form a strategy wherever possible . We should demand places on this map which we feel are of necessity and if we are defeated , we should request them to show us the pattern in which to surrender . THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : adjourn untill 10h00 tomorrow.

THE

HOUSE

ADJOURNED

AT

17H00

On that note this House wil1

231

THE FIFTH SESSION OF THE SECOND LEBOWA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. 1977 THURSDAY APRIL THE 21ST .

Prayer :

10h00 .

Minutes adopted - The honourable S.S. Mothapo , seconded by the honourable M. G. Sekhukhune , moved that the minutes be adopted . MR . S.P. KWAKWA: Mr. Speaker , I want to give notice of a motion that the contract be given to those who are responsible for the removal of refuse in the township for the duration of three years .

THE SPEAKER : the table in writing .

I believe the mover should bring it to

MR . M. J. RATALE : Mr. Speaker , it is my intention to give notice of a motion in connection with citizenship Certificates tomorrow .

MR . T.P. MAKOLA :

Mr. Speaker , I second the mover .

THE SPEAKER : Let me draw the attention of the House to the fact that a notice to give a motion does not need seconding . Item twelve . Now we go into Committee stage on the Lebowa Appropriation Bill .

THE COMMITTEE STAGE .

THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable Members , the House is now in committee and we shall therefore ask the Minister of Works to give his policy and budget speech . MR . S.S. MOTHAPO: On a point of order , Mr. Chairman . When we left yesterday , we were discussing this report on the Economic Revenue . I want to know as to whether Mr. Chairman , you are intending to suspend the deliberations .. thereof or alternatively

MR. L.C. MOTHIBA : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman . According to our Order Paper here the next item is 12 ( a) - the Committee stage of Lebowa Appropriation Bill . Yesterday there was a request brought up by specific members to discuss that particular item in the afternoon after we had finished with the vote on Interior .

232

If there is still another member who wishes to discuss this issue , he will follow the normal procedure as was done yesterday , to ask for the discussion of that particular item . At the moment the Order Paper says Lebowa Appropriation Bill and we go on with that . MR . S.S. MOTHAPO: It does not necessarily mean I did not look into the Order Paper . I saw the contents of the Order Paper . I was only bringing to your attention the fact that yesterday when we adjourned the House had not finished deliberations on that particular report and I have indicated in discussing the report . Well , that we were even interested it is at your discretion , Mr. Chairman to see what to do and what explanation you can give us.

THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable members , the Chair is highly interested that we discuss the thing to the end , but just allow us to follow the normal procedure . I still have the names of those that wished to speak yesterday . At the appropriate time they will be the first to speak .

THE MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS : Mr. Chairman , and honourable members of the Legislative Assembly. It is once more my privilege to report the conclusion of a successful worksprogramme to you . It has become custom to mention the chronic personnel shortage and when I say that exising vacancies amount to about 200 , of which 150 are artisans , you will understand why such a vast amount of work had to be entrusted to private firms . A similar picture exists in the NW grades . In spite of this we succeeded in keeping the wheels rolling and finalized the years ' programme without any important exceptions . Mr. Chairman and honourable members , I now wish to inform you about the most important of the various projects undertaken by the different sections of my department , also as agent for other departments . 1.

BUILDING SECTION .

During the 1976/77 financial year the undermentioned buildingo were , inter alia , completed for the following departments : 1.1 . Interior 16 houses at Malatjie Hospital , Namakgale . 1.2 .

1.3 .

Education . School building , Administration Modjadji Training College . The Phatudi College . Extensions to Training College . The Madikoti

block and a kitchen for second phare of the Dr. the existing Setotolwane Training College .

Agriculture A store at Lebowakgomo . Phase two of the Agricultural complex at Lenyenye and a storeroom for the Chloe Sisal factory .

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JUSTICE Extensions to the Magistrate's office at Tubatse . A room for the Magistrate's office at Bochum . Two additional rooms to a Magistrate's house and a cell and record room at the magistrate's office at Moutse were also built . HEALTH. The outpatient's building for the Knobel and Jane Furse hospitals were erected departmentally while extensions to the Masana Hospital and the Malatjie Hospital were executed by contractors during the past year. At Boschkloof , Bosplaas , Mamaila , Te Tours , Mabeti and Sonderwater clinics and nurses quarters were erected . WORKS The completion of Workshops at Nebo and Champagne . ROADS AND BRIDGES , WATER AND SEWERAGE . ROADS AND BRIDGES . The original estimates for the Matlala-Mashashane Road were for 10 kilometres but through high production , 21 kilometres and most of the drainage structures could be completed during the year . The Bakenberg- Leyden road as well as the Mons- Zwartberg road are completed in their entirely . A further 10 kilometres of the Laaste Hoop - Uitval road is also completed . A high standard gravel road of approximately 4,5 kilometres were completed to land excess to the Lebowakgomo Industrial area . Of the Deer Park - Modjadji road 8 kilometres were completed and one single span bridge was built . The worst sections of the Mecklenburg - Penge road were repaired . Thirty percent of the connecti ng road between Chuniespoort and the future government offices and Minister's houses is also completed . Both the access roads to the Blouberg Hospital and the Kroonstad Bellymore road were partly rebuilt . Over and above the already mentioned roads , Mr. Chairman and honourable members , the following larger drainage structures and bridges were completed during the 1976/77 financial year : The Matlala Bridge on the Matlala - Mashshane road , the Maandagshoek bridge on the re - routed access road to the H.C. Boshoff hospital as well as a 2 x 4 metre bridge et The Oaks . WATER AND SEWERAGE During the 1976/77 book year 60% of the Olifantspoort water pipeline was completed at a cost of R1200 000. Phase 1 of the Seshego sewerage disposal works were completed with the result that the efflux in the Bloed River is now in accordance with the requirements of the Water Act . The Vergelegen dam , which will supply water to the Jane Furse - And St. Ritas Hospitals , will be completed during May , 1977. To supply water to Mankweng , the water network of this town was connected to the Ebenezer water pipeline , and to ensure an adequate water supply to Ga-Kgapane , a pipeline between this township and the water pipeline of the Department of Water Affairs is at present under construction . The expected date of completion is May , 1977.

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At Tubatse reservoirs and pipelines were completed and intake - works for withdrawal of water from the Steelpoort river is presently under construction . This will result in a noticeable improvement in the quality of drinking water here from about July , 1977 . The water network of the Groothoek Hospital was also improved during the past financial year and a new reservoir and pipeline were completed for the water purification works at Bosbokrand , as well as the water supply and sewerage for the Motetema Trade School . The water reticulation at Hlogotlou was also extended . ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL During the past financial year , Mr. Chairman and honourable members , the following works were completed by the Electrical section of my department : A supply line from Seshego to Setotolwane . The wiring and supply for the Dr. C.N. Phatudi College as well as two coldrooms and cooking pots for this college . A great part of the installation of the Chloe sisal project was completed by this section as well as the wiring of the Barlow Rand School and the Modjadji Training College . Connection were given for the new water purification works at Seshego and the Val Duncan School at Namakgale . The reticulation in Zone 3 , Seshego is practically completed and street lights were erected . As agent for the Department of Bantu Administration and Development the supply line to Eerste geluk was completed within 3 weeks . This section also introduced a course to assist electrical personnel in the preparation for the trade test . MECHANICAL . The vehicle as well as the heavy machinery divisions fall under this section , Mr. Chairman . Information about the vehicle division will first be given and after that the heavy machinery division will be dealt with . VEHICLE DIVISION . At the end of the 1976/77 book year there were 1021 motor vehicles in use . During that year 106 new vehicles were purchased and 116 vehicles boarded . During the financial year under discussion , Mr. Chairman , 1 300 services and repairs were done to 1 200 vehicles in the workshop at Seshego . The panelbeating section performed 385 repairs , mainly caused by accidents . Against this private firms performed 1697 repairs for my department . In comparison with 186 accidents during the 1975/76 financial year , 167 accidents occured during the relative year . The decrease here is a hopeful sign . Six courses for moto vehicles drivers were offered durin the past year . These courses had as aim the improvement of driver's skill and to improve the maintenance of the vehicels . HEAVY MACHINERY . 31 Machines were purchased during the 1976/77 financial year . In comparison with the previous year there was a 5% increase in machines during the 1976/77 financial year . Over 300 trips were undertaken to transpurt machines and equipment and in this 5 400 kilometres were travelled . Repairs and services to larger machinery exceeded 3 300 during the year of which 1 300 were done by the workshop and 2 000 by agents and private firms .

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Mr. Chairman , these items are representative of the bigger works . In addition to this numerous smaller works were undertaken and one of the main functions of this department , namely general maintenance , was not mentioned at all . This is one of the less visible tasks but it is of extreme importance to ensure government . Approximathe maintenance of the assets of your tely R1.6 million was utilized in this respect . Four courses were offered during the past year to operators of heavy machinery . It had as aim to make operators more conversation with the working and handling of these machines and to improve the maintenance thereof . Mr. Chairman and honourable members , before I present the Budget for the 1977/78 financial year I wish to extend my sincere appreciation to officials of my department for their sacrifice and devotion during the past year . I fully realise that the work had to be done under most difficult conditions but in spite thereof , the year's programme was successfully finalised . And now Mr. Chairman and honourable members it is my special privilege to submit the Budget for the 1977/78 financial year . Full particulars about this Budget are implied in the documents in front of you and for that reason I only deal here with some of the larger projects that are planned . For your convenience the planned projects are grouped under the various departments for which they will be done . BUILDINGS Chief Minister and Finance . Houses for Ministers at Lebowakgomo and Government buildings in this township . Interior . The aim is to build 15 houses for MLA's in Seshego and houses to a total amount of R1000 000 in various other townships for this department .

Works . Adistrict office and a carpenter's shop at Seshego will be erected during this financial year . Education . Two hostels and a dining hall will be build for the Modjadji Training School and a hostel and dining hall are aimed for the Dr. C. N. Phatudi College .

Agriculture . A district office at Bolobedu Justice . Two police stations , one at Lenyenye and one at Mahwelereng , are planned to be build during the coming financial year . Health . Further extensions to the Masana Hospital , planning of the venues are enGroothoek Hospital and clinics at various visaged.

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Electrical During the 1977/78 financial year a start will be made on the contemplated sub - station for Mankweng as well as the 33k/v supply line from Pietersburg . At Bosbokrand a power connection for Shatale and a supply line to the water purification works are planned . A new main substation for Namakgale is contemplated and smaller extensions of reticulation in other towns will be undertaken . Water , Sewerage , Roads and Bridges .

Water and Sewerage . The 800mm pipeline for the Olifantspoort water supply scheme as well as a pump station at Olifants river and the end reservoir at Lebowakgomo will be completed during the 1977/78 financial year as well as the Seshego sewerage disposal works . All preliminary work for the Hout river dam is completed and construction of the mound will be started during May 1977 . Work will also be started on the water purification plant at the Vergelegen dam during the coming financial year . It is also planned to complete the water pipeline to the Lebowakgomo industrial area in May , 1977. The Varschwater damwall is at present being raised and a start will be made during 1977 with the water purification works at this dam . The whole aspect of water supply to Lenyenye is at present surveyed and the mass supply of water will most probably require a dam in the Thabina River which will include a new water purification plant . Work will commence as soon as the survey is completed . Extensions to the existing reservoirs capacity together with individual metering of water will , as soon as the work is completed , solve the water problem at Mahwelereng . During this year the building of a new water purification plant at Hlogotlou will be commenced which will , when the work is completed in 1978 , bring the quality of the water to a high standard . Work on the Tubatse water purification plant will continue during this year and be completed in 1978 . Extensions in the reticulation of unit 3 , Seshego , will also be continued . When the connection of Ga- Kgapane's reticulation on the Water Affairs pipeline is completed early in 1977/78 , the water shortage here should be something of the past . Water and sewerage reticulation for the Val Duncan trade school is undertaken by the Phalaborwa Mining Company and will be completed during 1977. The construction of a dam for the Mahlangu water supply will be started during the year . Construction of the civil works for the sewerage disposal plant for Groothoek will commence during 1977 and it is hoped that this will be completed in 1978. The water supply to closer settlements will , as from April , 1977 resort under the Department of Works . ROADS AND BRIDGES . The first 20km of the Mecklenburg - Penge road , which includes twn bridges , will be built during the year . A by- pass road at the citrus packing store at Champagne is necessary to ensure that dust does not affect the grade of citrus . This road will include two bridges .

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The work which was started during 1976/77 on the Deer Park Modjadji road and which includes one bridge , will be continued . Approximately 7km of the Seshego - Chloe road will be built. The Apiesboom road will be re- routed to avoid the thoroughfare between the houses . A new bridge will be constructed over to Mohlamonene stream . To improve the transport of timber to sawmills , various access roads to plantations of the Department of Agriculture and Forestry will be constructed . On the Bakenberg - Leyden road , near the Mogalakwena Hospital , a bridge will be constructed over the Mogalakwena River . This will complete the Mapela - Bakenberg - Leyden road . The Veeplaas bridge - a three span bridge - will be constructed over the Ngwaritsi River on the Adriaanskop - Hoeraroep road . The Sekwati - Makabjane bridge will also be completed during the 1877/78 financial year . Attention will also be given during the year under discussion to safety and information signboards along roads under jurisdiction of my department . Mr. Chairman , with your permission , I now propose that Vote 3 of the Budget of expenditure be approved by this Honourable House .

THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable House the Policy and Budget Speech has been read to you . It is now your time to make your comments , and ask questions on principles and merits of this .

KGOŝI E.M. MOGASHOA: Mr. Chairman , with your permission , could we be supplied with copies so that we can discuss what we see ?

THE CHAIRMAN :

Honourable member , that is on the way.

MR . I.K. MALEBANA: Mr. Chairman , I have been listening very intently as the Minister of Works was reading his speech . THE CHAIRMAN: Order ! Honourable members , let me plead with you once more . Once an honourable member has been given chance to speak , give him chance to speak . When you hold caucuses while the other honourable member is speaking you won't catch what he is saying . You are just going to repeat what he has been saying .

MR . I.K. MALEBANA: .... as the Minister was reading his speech in an interesting manner , explaining the places where he has worked as well as where he is going to work this year . I even said to myself , if speeches were deeds , surely he would accomplish wonderful works . I heard him speak about purifications of Seshego water , that they are in perfect conditions and are functioning properly.

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Now , for his information I say they are not functioning properly . The machine which is purifying water over there is causing serious damage in the Seshego township . It passes so much sand that geysers become blocked . Some people invited one to come and see . The geyser was half full of sand . Now I request that a better purifying machine than that one should be installed . Secondly , I request the Minister to give instructions to the water- supply section . When we are doing every best to develop . They should not draw us backwards . If you come here on Sundays , you will find that the water supply is closed . It is really shameful . You should know these houses are so small that they are called match- boxes , and they are not even fitted with doors inside , and they are not plastered . Now , bad air and odour remain in the house so that flies are teeming in the house , we try to flush the loos with water but it does not help . I humbly request the honourable Minister strictly to take care of this . When our children are affected by disease , it is because of germs from these flies . Please let us exercise care on this so that we should enjoy in our houses and when our friends have paid us visits on Sundays . On such days when we are relaxing we do not want to have disturbances . Let the Minister pay heed . Thirdly , Mr. Chairman , I have been listening attentively as the Minister was enumerating the places where he intends to improve the water conditions , and I find that he says nothing about places like Mashashane , Matlala , Moletji and the farms which people have bought , as if these places have been severed from the territory of Lebowa and placed outside . What I heard

THE CHAIRMAN: Order honourable member , you will remember , we are in the committee stage and you are only entitled to 10minutes . So , it will be wise to put questions to the Minister . If you make long comments , you will think it unfair when we ask you to sit down . Continue .

Now , I say I am surprised because MR . I.K. MALEBANA : we spoke about the Chloe road and the Minister says he will construct only 7kms of it . Why ? Because last year he promised that he would provide water at Mogwadi and today he does not tell us whether it has or has not been provided or will it be provided and if so when . Let him report in the same way as he has reported about other places . Why doesn't Blouberg road and the Minister tell us something about Seshego when it will be attended to . Why doesn't the Minister tell us when he will be installing electricity in our schools? I mean at Seshego Secondary School? I mean at Seshego Secondary school , and Knobel Hospital . When will he provide it with the extension he promised and when will he supply it with water?

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)

These are my requests . Seeing that he is beaten , he should arrange that people be hired to cover the holes in the roads , for these roads are simply covered with water . I also want to know , since the Minister was , speaking about sign- posts , why does he not put them up at the appropriate places from Westphalia to Bochum Hospital . That is the right place for a sign- post just at the end of the road where there is nothing , it is where they put the sign post . Why don't they plant them just outside the township? Where there should be a sign- post to indicate entrance into the town there is none . Why do they do that?

MR. S.S. MOTHAPO : of questions here : -

Mr. Chairman , I have a good number

1.

In your Policy Speech you mentioned that four courses on handling of machinery were offered . Could you kindly inform this House as to what these courses cover beside maintaining these machineries .

2.

Do you have basic training for those who are using road srapers . If not , when do you think this will start , and if 80 , what does this course include ? The concern here , Mr. Chairman , is that in some areas you will find that roads are being scraped but they lack outlets . To me Mr. Chairman it is ignorance for the people to makeroads without outlets . If you go around the eastern part of Thabamoopo , most of the roads there are being scraped but they don't have outlets . I notice that there is vast difference between those who are doing the scraping of roads this side of Thabamoopo and those who are doing scraping this side of Seshego . In the Seshego area there are outlets . Could you explain very clearly as to what the reason is for this type of thing?

3.

Dams- ( a)

We had a higher expectation about the erection of the Royal Dam in the Molepo area , but the work has been discontinued and you mentioned nothing about this dam in your speech . We thought that if that dam was completed then the whole of the Thabamoopo area would get water . We have already told our people that now the work has been started they can expect plenty of water , in the MP's of Thabamoopo constituency have told their people lies . The honourable the Minister of Works , would you be kind enough to explain the reasons why?

(b) Renewal of old dams : I observed that in the Mothapo area old dams are being renewed ; and we are quite grateful for that . But why do you do them when these dams have already some water in them? The honourable the Minister we need that water very much . My suggestion is therefore that you do the renewal during dry seasons .

4.

Bridges : ( a)

In the area of Kgosi Molepo I spoke here last year that the Mphogodiba River is very very

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dangerous to the people of Kgoŝi Molepo and to our people of Kgoŝi Mothapo . Many lives have been lost in that river . As long as there are bridges we can expect the loss of very many precious lives there . I am still appealing to you , the honourable Minister to take care of this whole question of Mphogodiba River

(b)

In the Kgoŝigadi Mamabolo's area , there is a river called Sephiŝi , and this river is very dangerous to the lives of the people in that area. During rainy seasons it is not crossable . I mentioned this aspect in this honourable House last year and the promise was that you would attend to it , the honourable Minister . From what I gathered from the people in that area , you did send some people to do the inspection and after having surveyed the place , nothing has been done till today . The honourable Minister , I am appealing to you to really attend to this issue .

MR. H.M. LESHABANE : Mr. Minister , thank you very much for forgetting us in Sekgosese . Mr. Chairman when I have to speak particularly when I think the vote on Works is a large amount . I feel the money must be allocated according to the demand . In your Department we have twelve constituencies and in many constituencies nothing has been done for the whole year ; and nothing will be done for the coming year . 1.

The Modjadji Training College : You said the first phase was finished . When I got there , it was only one hostel ; no hostel for girls or for boys . They are sharing this hostel why? Modjadji Training College has been in the estimates for the last three years . You tell us you are going to build two hostels . Are you going to build two hostels? Be sure now . I want a direct answer to this.

This is serious honourable Minister ; through you Mr. Chairman , a clever administrator never promises because if he promises and fail he is making an implication that he and I should differ or must fight , or must hate one another . I am keeping a watch on the Modjadji Training College , the two hostels to come up , the dining hall and whatever you promised . I am watching very carefully and closely and I am coming back , after the next election into this House . If that is not done of course you may not come back . Well it would be your luck . The honourable Minister , you know very well that the river I actually called you for

THE CHAIRMAN : the Chair .

Order , honourable member , please address

MR . H.M. LESHABANE : Mr. Chairman , I reported that the river Mokgolopi in the area of Kgoŝi Mamaila , which has been surveyed by this Department for a bridge for the last four years , has not even been estimated for .

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You told me that you were going to do something about it but it is not in your speech . How am I going to tell my people that this bridge will be done this year , as you told me ? Mr. Chairman , I am appealing for cooperation , truth and honesty in dealing with the government matters . You have put up two clinics in Sekgosese , one at Kgoŝi Mamaila's area , and another in Makgato's area , but this is not the complete plan . It is a half plan . Six houses are not there . I want to know why these are not completed according to plan , why? Both of these clinics because I am a good M.P. , I reported and I expected you to have courtesy in your Policy Speech to tell me not to ask you because I have reported to you in your office . Mr. Chairman , I took the honourable Minister to the area between Moketsi and Mamaila and he has seen this himself . The people are not getting food , there is no transport too . He said he was going to do something about it - build a very big bridge . This bridge is to be constructed where the TPA road and the Lebowa road meet right in the river . I said he must make arrangements for a talk between TPA and Lebowa so that the transport for the people in this area should go on , Mr. Chairman . I will be happy to hear progress in this connection , because I took the Minister to the spot myself . Again , there is a bridge which is supposed to be made in Kgoŝi Makgato's area , which is between the graveyard and the other village of Makgato . This was also reported to the Minister and I hear nothing about it , why? Mr. Chairman I learned from the Minister that he has bought 21 machines , I want to know what types of machines they are . I also want to know how many scrapers we have in Sekgosese particularly because the roads are deteriorating there . We used to have very good roads and one good man -- I understand he has been promoted , which I am very happy about . The people we have , but there is something wrong some where , and I hope and feel that his Department must be fixed somehow . Mr. Chairman , I want to know from the Minister , who gives him the instruction to extend a school and do that and that . Why I am asking is because in Mokomene which is a Government School application for an extension for the dining hall and other facilities was submitted to the Department of Education . Now I don't hear about it from the building section of this Department .

THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable Minister , you need not bother to answer the question .

THE MINISTER OF WORKS: What does it help because I do not want a person to be sad for the whole sitting . I want that we progress well . It is the honourable member for Sekgosese , Mr. Leshabane , who says he will be sad .

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Now I do not want him to be sad . Let me help him . I went to Sekgosese on the 23rd of February this year and I went to the Magistrate , Mr. Venter . I also went to that river Mokgolopi . We went at the appropriate time when the river was flooded and the people were unable to obtain food . But the member should remember that at that time these estimates had already been compiled . Let him not be disappointed by nothing , imagining that we are disregarding them . I am disappointed because he did not hear me mentioning them , but we will see how we can help those people . They have no food , he is right . I spent the whole day in that area together with him and Kgoŝi Mamaila . Now if what he and Kgoŝi Mamaila and I discussed does not appear in the estimates , he should not feel dismayed . How could they appear since the estimates had already been compiled and completed ? Please do not be dismayed . Sekgosese is being considered , it will be attended to . That river must be put right so that the people may go across it in order to go and search for food . In connection with the Letaba river I told him on the spot that he meant the Lepelle . This is a very wide river . With the budget of my department we cannot manage . He also conceeded that we could not manage . I promised him that we would plead with the Commissioner- General that he should seek for help from his own Government . That river is too big . We cannot manage to span it .

MR . H.M. LESHABANE : Mr. Chairman because I did not finish , I am sure I have another ten minutes . Sometime I will come back , not now.

THE CHAIRMAN :

You still have so minutes to come .

MR . H.M. LESHABANE :

Can I register right now to be the

last one ?

THE CHAIRMAN : Let honourable Donald Modjadji .

finish my list first .

The

MR . S.D. MODJADJI : Mr. Chairman , what I could ask the Minister of Works through you is whether , since the rains started falling , he has received reports about the problems of the roads. I heard him saying it appears there is a road being constructed in Stranger Rest - the road which was out of use these days . Now , I also want to know how many bridges will be constructed on that road . Has he ever travelled along that road to see the hill called Morutu . Has he seen the number of streams opposite Modjadji Palms . Now , will he provide that area with bridges? How long will it take him to complete that road . This is a very important road because it passes between the Shangaans and Bolobedu .

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The road passes also a big river called Mobaba . Did he notice that river? This river is right in the area occupied by the people of Bolobedu . Now our request is that urgent attention be given to repairing of this road . Mr. Chairman , I have no idea if the Minister ever paid visit to the Bolobedu area opposite Gazankulu? Between Modjadji and Mamaila there was a bridge on the Molototsi river . It is not there just now . That means the road between Bolobedu and Gazankulu is blocked . Lately when we were from Mekgalong we passed there and found that the Department of Agriculture has planted sisal . Now on our way to the Chief's kraal we found that the river bridge was broken . Now our request is that the repairing of that bridge should receive the Ministers prior attention so that buses could be driven across . At the Modjadji Training College , what is the capacity of the hostels in terms of students accommodation ? Not far away from that there is a very important dam which the Minister has not mentioned . When will this dam be completed because since it was started being constructed there is no indication up to now that it will ever be completed . Modjadji area I noticed that a telephone is being constructed . When will this telephone be completed and ready for use? Now I wish to know how many workers have been killed by the working lorries . I believe he should be able to tell me because he must have received reports .

MR. M.G. MATHEBE : Mr. Chairman , I appreciate the speech of the honourable the Minister of Works very much . I am also thankful that he has put up prison cells at Moutse . As I paged through this schedule of the estimates , I saw there was nothing mentioned about erecting a cell , but today I heard that a cell has been erected . Now I want to be clear whether he is going to house the male and female prisoners together or what is the position . Now Mr. Chairman , last year when we were in the office of the Minister of Works , he promised that he would definitely see to it the bridge across the Elandsriver of which we have long been complaining that it kills many people , is constructed . Now he has mentioned a thing about it . Or does it indicate that these little governments are in agreement with that little map that indicate we are going to be removed , and as a result does it mean it will be a waste of money to construct such a bridge? What I know is that stones for constructing the bridge have long been heaped there . I do not know whether it is part of the programme that one or two years will be used for collecting stones and in the subsequent year construction of the bridge will be commenced . Is that the plan?

MR . S.S. MOTHAPO : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman , you are running your House without a quorum . (interjection)

243

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER :

Sit down !

MR . M.W. KGATLA : Mr. Chairman , we go on . There are some Honourable members outside who are not interested in listening . Those who are , are in the House . So we go on .

MR . M.G. MATHEBE : Mr. Chairman , I was still on the matter of the bridge for Moutse . If it is going to be built in the same manner in which the schools are built as I have always heard that there is 1st phase , and 2nd phase and 3rd phase , please just tell us clearly that a bridge has also to progress according to phases , or is 1st phase that of heaping stones together? Now I want to ask the Minister of Works whether he has an intention of building more hostels for Boaparankwe , if so when. Mr. Chairman the whole nation is eager to send the sons of dikgoŝi and headmen for education to that place . Now the hostels which are existing

MR . M. J. PHASHA : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman . The Minister of Works builds schools on the instruction of the Minister of Education . The Minister of Works does not provide for school buildings but the Department of Education does provide and thereafter requests the Minister of Works to build on its behalf because the Department of Education does not build . I realise that the honourable member involves the building of schools in the Department of Works .

MR . M.G. MATHEBE : Mr. Chairman , the honourable member from Sekhukhune is not a Liaison Officer between the Department of Works and the Department of Education . So he must stop this kind of order . Mr. Chairman the hostels which are there are able to accommodate only eighty students , and that was the position eleven years ago . I believe , Mr. Chairman , it is obvious that by now the number of the children of the magoŝi and headmen has increased in such a way that many children are turned down because of lack of accommodation . Now , Mr. Chairman , I understand there are government cars which people are able to get on a subsidised basis , that is it is possible that they own them partly . I would like to understand clearly how this matter operates . How many people have already got cars on this scheme . How many are Whites , how many are Blacks? Mr. Chairman , the people of Kgoŝi Mathebe applied that they be provided with dams , and they were told that their lands are private properties , in other words it does appear the government is not going to do any thing for them there . As I understand it when they say an area is private , they mean the owner has bought it for himself.

244

Now , since at my place , Moutse , we bought farms for ourselves . I would like to know if this government has a sound knowledge of Sesotho where it is said that the beast that is helped to stand is that one which is trying to stand on its own . We have bought farms for ourselves , now instead of being helped we are made to understand that we are used to it , we should do it for ourselves . That state of affairs makes us feel very very concerned .

There are tous ai arr erd st 3very Bar but the discuecurs du want to new for the honourable 1.2 are the problems which relard the , 204 Notice that lack of str 3 cause . CALS .

through you I TAR + t . the hur J. 1 to exi t 1.2 ขาย 22 2

KORŠI B.K. MATLALA : Mr. Chanan, Very " T t steis hun I Li -U Ser of works . SIRE the Mi has had a very nucleus matter of.om L - 3 aster d talked about 15 , .C ben bettled , have no streets .

ster 1 C 2's in perpins fou

THE CHAIRMAN : Orcer ! horoutsole member , is that rot . relative to the Departwant of fai

KGOĜI B.K. MATLALA : Right , roads are under the Department of Works . I am directing the matter to Works . In short honcurable member I am complaining about roads in our villages . They damage the cars and cars are very costly . You buy a car and within a week it is broken down . Now , it is for years I have been insisting on this matter that there should be workers for the roads and workers who are responsible for bridges . ***. The former Minister Here is another very importa of Works promised us a huge dam . Now , I would like to be informed what the position is just now . I ask the honoureble the Minister of Works to consult with him about it . Whether you are not friendly to one another , I do not know. If you are not friendly , send the Speaker . Now there is this matter which makes my heart very painful , I do not want to forget it because it makes me cry . Six months ago I went into the office of the Department of Works and applied for electricity . We have put up very fine hostels with Tribal Fund and all that is required is electricity current . I am appealing that on the 28th after we have had refreshments he should just go and have a look at them .

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER :

Yes !

KGOsI B.K. MATLALA: I have fitted in the globes and everything that is required , only current is remaining .

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I once asked the Minister of Works whether it would not be a good thing to put up a supermarket at Lebowakgomo so that Lebowa may benefit . I must tell the honourable the Minister of Works that as I am speaking I am expressing complaints but my complaints are not being heeded , and the complaints of other members are also not heeded . Please let him give this his ears .

I must also praise him for his satisfactory speech . It is even better than that of last year . My request is that he should practice the things I have mentioned .

KGOSI J. MAHLANGU : Mr. Chairman , in the speech of the Minister of Works , I see he has written about new cars . Now , I want to know , since last year there was a motion that traffic inspectors should be provided with bigger cars in the place of Volkswagens so that in case of accidents they should be able to transport the injured , whether you have bought better cars for them or not . If you have not bought them , can you explain why , because it was said the matter would be attended to very soon . Now in connection with roads , every year we complain about roads . After the session last year he called at my place saying he wanted to see if the material he sent for the construction of the bridge had come . They had not come . He said he was going to look for them and promised they would come quickly and that the bridges would be completed before the end of the year . He went away to look for the materials . What was the end of the story after he failed to find them? At Mahlangu's area , for all these years there has been not even one bridge , not even one bridge ; not even the roads . I now want to inform him that the road he saw from the main road to the headkraal has been done just two weeks ago , and it has been constructed by the community . Thank you .

MR . M.J. MOHLALA : Mr. Chairman , for a long time we have been asking for a bridge on the River Motŝitŝi on the way to Maripi . Now , the problem with this river is that it is a big river . There are people owning shops there but they have no roads by which they could be supplied with food in their shops during the winter months because after the rains there is nothing that can be sent across . We have long discussed about the road from Masana to Brooklyn . There ar also many spots where the river can be crossed to Mashego's area . Now we have requested that two bridges be constructed along that roads and we did not get them . Ше have also asked for a foot path bridge just there and there is none .

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We also requested for streets in our villages . People who passes cars are experiencing difficulties , when they have to go into the villages . The shopkeepers too should have road facilities .

Mr. Chairman , I want to know from the KGOSI MATHABATHA: Minister of works which government is responsible for the road branching from tar road and proceeding to the Downs. If it is under the Lebowa Government why is it not used . I noticed one thing on this Icad . I personally tried to consult with the men of the Central Government working there as it remained unrepaired for a long time . I noticed that they were working at it from the tar road up to Mathabatha's kiaal urly . In fact they go as far as Mafeefee , and the condition of the road is very poor . I also want to know when the Malepi's Bridge will be enlarge . I have real evidence of the serious accidents which took plate at this spot since 1973. I want to know how many cars have fallen into the river from that bridge because it is too narrow . Please ask the Traffic section , it will help you . THE CHAIRMAN : to Works .

Order !

Honourable member , be relevant

KGOSI M.M. MATHABATHA : Now , I want to know when a bridge will be built across the Mohlapitsi River .

KGOSI J. MAHLANGU : Mr. Chairman , I want to speak again about Moutse , for if I remember well , the Minister visited that place last year and we briefed him about the matter of Moutse . He promised that he would include it in the estimates of this year . Now , in this Budget Speech there is nothing mentioned about it . That river is giving us a difficulty . Even now it iş still flooded and we can't pass . Now doctors are the other side of the river as well as the Magistrate and the Police . There is alsoa a clinic not very far from the river . Imagine our difficlties if a woman is in labour . In order to go across the river you have to go a long round- about way and many accidents occur . Now the Minister of Works should give reasons beaten . If he cannot put up a big bridge , he small one . If there is nothing he's doing on to think otherwise . We will begin to suspect to be removed because last night the wireless Territotial Authority is being established at are very sad about this matter .

why he is being can construct a that river , we begin that we are going announced that a Mapoch . Now we

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MR . M.W. KGATLA : Mr. Chairman , firstly I want to congratulate the Minister of Works for the good work that he has done and the good speech he has delivered in this House . I want to make this House to understand that he is having a very difficult Department . He is building for each and every Department , houses and all the other projects that must be built are on his shoulders . In Lebowa here , he is a very important man . That is why they have allocated to him R15m . Despite this fact he is my personal friend . He has done good work last year . I have a number of remarks . He promised me that he would complete Phase I of the Modjadji Training College , and we did see that was done on our tour down there , no Minister could have built that . He has now promised me that he is going to build phase 2 and phase 3. To support my argument , on page 11 he says this : "Two hostels and a dining hall will be built for the Modjadji Training School and a hostel and a dining hall are aimed for the Dr. Phatudi College " . Once he has put that in writing I am sure he is going to do that . We had enough rain this year and roads are badly worn out , bridges have gone off ; it is not Matlala's rain , and therefore he must not be blamed for that . When the rain has come , it has come . It has damaged the roads and bridges . That is not his fault . What you should do is just to inform him that the roads and bridges have been swept away by the rain , please come and do repairs , not to rebuke him . You should also listen to those things which he was not able to accomplish last year , and show him with courtesy . I have noticed that when we quarrel with people , they do not do much . I have noticed these from the Chief Minister . If you say give money to Agriculture , give money to Education , he just refuses and acts like the Afrikaners and say : " Ek sal nie " . Just now he has promised me that lights will be completely installed at the Ga- Kgapane township and water will be reticulated but first the pipe from Ebenezer Dam must be completed . As we were touring the whole Lebowa area , we saw beautiful big dams . The Bolobedu have sent me to ask Lebowa to come and harness one wild river called Molototsi , tp provide us with dams so that we can have water for the watering of beasts and humans . These , I have confidence , you will accomplish . Recently when you were in the Sekgosese District we should have led you along a certain road , passing next to Kgoŝi Mamaila's place . There were these hindrances . There is a road going up through Belleview to a place called Sedibeng . Even the time when Kgoŝi Mothapo was the Minister of Works this road was never scraped . Please let this road be scraped this year . Another road starts from Belleview towards another kraal of Kgoŝi Mamaila , called Mamokgadi .

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The people living there have been landlocked . When the rain has fallen , cars can't budge . It has not been scraped for the last ten years . There is another starting from the headkraal of Kgoŝi Mamaila leading towards Versfontein . This road is hardly ever scrabbled . Our people drive at about 16 miles per hour before they reach the tar road where they can board the buses. Let that also be attended to . Now , you are ascended todards the headkraal from the shop you could see how slowly the people were driving , for there is no good road leading to the headkraal of Kgoŝi Mamaila . It only needs a scraper which won't even be there for 30 minutes . We shall then be having road leading from the shop up to my headkraal . I do not want to repeat what has already been spoken by the honourable member , Donald . Our bus got stuck at one bridge , just there is where the car of the Chief Minister got stuck when we were going to Modjadji's place . Eight miles down the river there was a slab bridge . It is gone . When it is raining there there is no contact with the people up that way . People starve because lorries are not able to cross and we are not able to reach our people when we want them . We have two scrapers at Bolobedu , when we enquire to know how they are being used , the operators just make a small path and stop working . We are told that you have ordered them to work a ceryain mileage according to preference and when that mileage has been covered they should stop and wait . Even here you have two foremen for the whole Lebowa . They are not able to supervise the whole Lebowa if the scrapers are being used . MR . S.P. KWAKWA : Mr. Chairman I have already put in a question on the control of the use of the L.G. cars . I hope this will not be forgotten . I am quite correct about it because just to quote a case : Once when I was at a motel in Zebediela during inspection in that area , an L.G. car came to the motel at 9 p.m. and when the driver of that car saw me , it made such a U- turn that only Kayalami cars could make . This is also done with the scrapers but I do not know whether it is in accordance with what the honourable member has just said that after doing a certain mileage , the go to rest ; because once I had my car stucked in mud . I was told that somewhere there was a grader . It was at that house where beer was being sold . It was standing there for the whole day . Mr. Chairman , I would like the Minister to make a clear statement so that my people should be able to know that Mahwelereng will also be included among those townships that would have new houses built out of this R1m . The people of Mokerong are very co -operative as might have seen from the taxes they have paid - R93 000 and the next one being R39 000. Surely these people must be encouraged by seeing things happening in their area .

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To add to that I would like the Minister to repeat what the Minister of Education said at the L.P.P. Conference held at Mahwelereng that money donated by some private section would be used for building a school in order to alleviate that position of platoon system that is taking place in one of the schools there . My people were very sceptical about that pronouncement and if the Minister would repeat it in this House , they would be quite satisfied . And again , why is mention made that Mahwelereng will have water - meters whereas the other townships , apparently go on without water meters? The other question is , when is Lebowa going to produce model plans for the Government Building that will be put up at Lebowakgomo? As one travels in other parts of the world one finds the government showing model buildings , showing the layout of the place where they intend to put up building and how they will be . I felt very small when I saw that at Giyane when we were there on this boundary question . I would like to ask further whether there is any objection against the use of private contractors for projects of the Lebowa Government . We teach children at school that they should be trained in building . Now , is it not right that we should demonstrate to them that they can make contracts? They can come to Lebowa and offer tenders and the Lebowa would give the project to such a tender that they should carry it out . This matter is really very necessary , for in your speech you have shown that there are many vacancies . That means you are short of man power . Also a man who works on a contract basis , does his best to complete the work quickly so as to get his money . We noticed this system when the magistrates offices at Mahwelereng were being constructed . It was at the time when hostels were being built at the Mokopane Training College . The hostels were not as big as the magistrates offices , but the magistrates offices were completed earlier than the hostels. I think the Minister of Works will remember when he was a member of the floor here , he said that a road in his area had taken 4 years to build four miles . Surely the quick road which carries heavy traffic should not receive as much attention as the main road . I am saying this because you take a road from Mapela to P.P. Rust , that road is used by buses which carry labourers who work in P.P. Rust , and carry school children who go between Mantutule and others who go to Alfred Mokopane School . That applies for instance to the road that starts from Kalkspruit and Langskloof ; That road carries railway users who travel from Langskloof and all the other areas between Langskloof and Kalkspruit .

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We have yet another road from Limberg through Mapela to Syplaas that road too carries heavy traffic . That road starting from here to Moletŝi , through Blood River , through Mmoto-wa- Perekisi ; that road carries heavy traffic . When I refer to these roads , I refer also to the bridges along them. People get stuck and these are bread winners , and these are school children , and when it has rained they can't reach their destinations and they suffer and meanwhile they are paying tax better than any other area . Lastly Mr. Chairman , I hope that the special school that was promised Mahwelereng as a sort of technical school will be put up .

THE CHAIRMAN :

On that note we shall adjourn .

BUSINESS SUSPENDED 12h45 BUSINESS RESUMED 14h15.

THE CHAIRMAN: in committee .

Honourable members the House is still

KGOĜI P. NKADIMENG : Mr. Chairman , I have two questions to put to the Minister of Works . I pity him . I would not like to use sophisticated weapons against him . I will use very light weapons instead . My question read thus : What steps are taken by your Department to expedite tarring of national roads? I am sure he is well aware that as far as roads are concerned in Lebowa , they are not as good as all that . It happens that on our way we are usually stopped by the traffic cops that " one of your indicators is not working " just because of corrugated grave roads . To your surprise when you put it right and shake it , you will find it was just because of the corrugations of the road , it is dusty. You clean it and it works again - by then you will have already been issued certain documents that you should pay on such a specific day . What hinders your Department tu make a luan of lump money so as to facilitate road construction because it is really boring and embarrassing to talk of this type of various portfolios in a type of a Government of a homeland . Even though I am well aware that it is going to be the talk of the Chief Minister , Finance and Authority Affairs and the like I don't want the answer of that tendency towards that . Thirdly: How many experts in road construction does your Department have ? I am afraid , the answer will be enough white ; I don't want that , I want something else because the Whites we are already having so many . So away with spoon feeding . How many experts are there with regard to planning in your Department .

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I have heard in the Budget speech page 10 that houses for the Ministers are to be built at Lebowakgomo . I don't expect white citizens there .. How many dams on perennial rivers in Lebowa have already been started , starting from 1976/77 financial year ? I realise when we talk of dams in Lebowa we talk of sort of contours . Those are not dams . We want dams on perennial rivers because contour dams are only good for dry countries , far away from rivers . They cater for those people who are in a very dry barren area . Mr. Minister , you are so lucky , I am still using very light weapons , thank you . KGOSI M.G. MOHLALA : Mr. Chairman through you I have a few questions in connection with the Minister of Works . At our places there is Great River Resort where our people work . Now at their place of employment the employers are willing to transport their employees home and to come to fetch them to their place of work early in the morning . But because of bad roads they do not come for them any longer . They request that we should repair the roads. Recently they visited my place . And they wanted to know if it would be permissible for them to bring this road scrapers to scrape the road so that their vehicles should not be damaged , because during the time of rainfall people are not able to come to work. Now Mr. Chairman we on our part have sawmills which are not far away from us viz Graskop saw mill , Driekop saw mill and Blyde saw mill . From them all there are lorries which come to fetch the workers . But owing to lack of good roads in the rainy seasons you will find a man walking a distance of eight miles to the tar road where he can find the transport to his place of employment . Recently a bus for transporting the workers was burnt . The rain fell and the bus could not come into the village and it had to spend the night by the side of the tar road . There are people of Kgoŝi Mashile who stay at Mamoratana . In the morning they ought to start work at 7h00 , but when it is raining they encounter great difficulties because of lack of transport . Also here we have two schools . There is Kadise River which begins at the Kadise Secondary School . When it is raining children cannot cross over to the school . Just there two bridges are called for . Last year I mentioned this matter and the Minister of Works promised that he would do something about it ; up to now nothing has been done . Now , my request is that even if we have to be removed we should be moving along road as we go to the new place . Mr. Chairman , much has already been said , such as that businessmen are suffering very much where it concerns transportation of goods .

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The people bringing mealiemeal have no roads leading into the village . When they stop far away the rains damage their goods so that for two to three months the shops have no mealiemeal . Mr. Chairman , at Leroro there is clay soil . I believe the Minister of Works too noticed that his car was not able to go through smoothly . I would therefore be very thankful if the Minister of Works would state that he knows the place and that he would put things right . One pther point is I have investigated the branch of the Department of Works at our area and there was none . I do not know what I have to do if I want to consult with that Department in our area . When you go there you find the Department of Health and if you consult them they state that such matters are under the Department of Works. In addition to the grader there should always be a lorry to carry gravel to the sleepery parts of the road and also where bridges are being constructed . The grader should be complemented by a lorry. Now we do not find the lorries of the Department of Works . Thank you , Mr. Chairman .

THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable members , before the next speaker stands up , I want to say this : You are expected to be in this Chamber at 10h00 everyday and at 14h15 every afetrnoon . I called upon names of honourable members who were to speak and they were no where in the Camber . I see a few of them have come and I am prepared to give them a chance , but they must realise that they delay the deliberations of the House .

KGOĜI T.J. MOTHAPO: Thank you Mr. Chairman , I have with me here questions which I want to put to the honourable the Minister . The Minister states that he is short of manpower especially skilled manpower . We have two schools which are Tseke Mabooe and Shikwane - Matlala which could supply this Department with skilled man - power . Are these schools no longer training people who can help in this Department ? Or do they only teach students from other ethnic groups and doors are closed for ours as I learn students of electricity are no longer taken in? Honourable Minister , how many surveyors have resigned or have been dismissed from your Department?

How many electricians have resigned or have been sacked from your Department from last year till now . How many mechancis have resigned or have been dismissed from your Department ?

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How many carpenters have left on their own or have been dismissed from your Department? How many panel beaters have resigned or have been dismissed from your Department ? What were the reason for their resignation or dismissals? In your Department , when are you going to employ an understudy Secretary? Many things in Lebowa and also in your Department are going wrong when you visited our place on the 10th of March you stated that the Whites even if they know , to say nothing about us . It is clear that you also have nothing to do with your own people . The reason why the boundaries are giving us so much trouble is that the Blacks in your Department have fearful responsibility because Lebowa property is scattered in front of you and you the Minister . In your Department there are those who are responsible for typing confidential matters only . You have taken away our lady typists in order to take in the White typists for confidential matters in your Department . These confidential matters are things which you do not know and which you cannot know because they are confidential matters . Now as it is clear that these things worry us , do they worry you also? What steps have you taken to consult with T.P.A. to help you in training the drivers of road making machines , I have already mentioned that roads are giving trouble also . They are giving you trouble also . We have men from school who are well trained from some other places . Those are the people you can use if that will be pleasing to you . Now , The Minister speaks of the " close settlement " . What will supply those people with water · the close settlement which will be supplied with water as from the 1st day of April . When you speak of closer settlements Mr. Chairman and through you , do you mean towns or does it include where there are dikgoŝi ? Villages are already spread in accordance with plans provided by the officers of the Department of Agiculture . It is true that we do not have water . The tribes are expected to budget for water in their annual estimates . We put up schools on that similar basis . Money which could be used for providing water any where , is used for building schools . It is for this reason that since the communities put up schools , it is your duty to supply them with water and electricity. You heard the honourable the Deputy Minister of the Republic recently when he opened this Parliament speaking about things which do no exist that Lebowa has so many schools . He did not say so many schools have been established by the communities and so many by the Government , he simply generalised . They taught him to tell lies here in Lebowa , because some people here in Lebowa lead people into telling

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THE CHAIRMAN: Order honourable member how is that related with the speech of the Minister? How do you come to use the name of the Deputy Minister in this connection and your time is up honourable member .

KGOĜI T.J. MOTHAPO : own things .

It's alright , continue with your

MR. P.L. KEKANA: Mr. Chairman , I have read the policy speech of the Minister of Works and I find it very interesting . I find it disappointing that the school promised us at Mahwelereng is not in the estimates . Looking there I think Mahwelereng is the first township in Lebowa but the Minister of Works is already busy with Zone 3 here in Seshego , whereas there is only Zone 1 in Mahwelereng . Every year when I look into the estimates of the Minister of Works I find there is nowhere indicated where they allow him to build houses . He is always allowed to build only ten . He has already completed Zone 3. I think he has a way of obtaining bricks . Now as far as I see , this matter will disturb some of the townships .

MR . E.D. MABOT JA: The honourable Minister of Works , we now see the truth of what you said . Last year you told us that your Department was in a chaotic state . This ше could also see , for you have ousted Van Zyl . Now I want to tell the Minister of Works about the road from Seshego to Chloe , why is it changed this year whereas last year you stated Seshego to Chloe and Gilead ? May I know why the Minister has decided to construct only seven kilometers of it? Will he put gravel to it or will he tar it? If he is going to put gravel , he should do so up to Gilead . THE CHAIRMAN : Order honourable member , the Minister was asked previously why he is working the only 7km . As such you are repeating . MR. E.D. MABOT JA: No! He should do it up to Gilead . I want to know from the Minister of Works why he says nothing about bridges .

the are and you

THE CHAIRMAN: Order , honourable member , if you ask Minister about bridges without particularising then you repeating because the question of bridges was asked now again . If you want a bridge on that road to Gilead then are relevant .

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MR. E.D. MABOT JA: That is what I intend to do , I want a bridge on Blood River and one on the road from Kibi's area ; the present one is inadequate . I also want to speak about a road to Blauwberg . Here it is mentioned up to Blauwberg whereas it goes as far as Bochum , as far as Kibi's place . He has also not mentioned the road to Knobel Hospital . That hospital is now the nearest road to Gilead . Please help us , for indeed they are there . Now you are a man who does his work. Thank you .

MR . GODFREY SEKHUKHUNE : Through you Mr. Chairman let us examine the matter of the Minister of Works a bit . This Department makes me feel ashamed because charity begins at home . Our honourable Chairman , through you to the Mini ter of roads , it is a pleasure to hear members in this House praising him for roads in Lebowa , but he has forgotten about his own constituency where he was elected . I hope from now on he will start working on the other side of the river . If he has never taken the road to Monkey- nuts when you get to Kgoŝi Malekana's area , he must have realised it is a disgrace the way the road is . When you turn to Kgoŝi Mampuru the road is very narrow even two bricks cannot meet . The accidents have already awakened themselves .

THE MINISTER OF WORKS : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman . The road to Kgoŝi Malekana has been left by others who were there before . However , when I was reading my policy speech he should have been there , he could have heard me . He was not there . I also have questions here about the road to Kgoŝi Mampuru which runs along the foot of the mountain by members from Sekhukhune ; you were not there .

MR . GODFREY SEKHUKHUNE : I hope the Minister of Works will tolerate to be corrected . I think we definitely have got to point to him and correct him . He has been blind all the time . A year ago he told me in this House that the Motetema road by this time will be well tarred , but it is not . Right inin 1964 Kgoŝi , you front of his Kgoro- I must remind him remember we were sitting under the tree when you said we must make a dam that

THE CHAIRMAN :

Order !

MR . GODFREY SEKHUKHUNE : HONOURABLE MEMBERS :

But Mr. Chairman

Order !

THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable member , when you speak , address the chair and face the chair . AN HON . MEMBER :

And be precise .

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MR. GODFREY SEKHUKHUNE : Mr. Chairman , this young man behind me is irritating me . Could you

THE CHAIRMAN : Order honourable member . Honourable H.M. Modjadji .

I said order .

MR . H.M. MODJADJI : Mr. Chairman , I feel very sad to hear what is being said that our Minister of Works is doing better things . According to me I find them making tricks , because there is still a lot of work . Through you Mr. Chairman , I request that when I ask questions the Minister should write them down so that he should answer me properly . In his speech the Minister mentioned houses that have to be put up in Lebowa . Now I want to know about the houses he has allotted to Gakgapane . In his speech he also mentioned eight kilometres of road to Deerpark . To tell the truth there is nothing that has been done on that road . If indeed that road has been constructed the other day we left here on a tour , we should have gone along it . If I remember well when the Minister was an ordinary member of the House he spoke about a road of four miles which took four years to be completed . Now, the Minister should notice that he is doing that very thing .

THE CHAIRMAN: I want to point out that this thing of working four miles in four years is previously mentioned ; you were outside .

MR . H.M. MODJADJI : I think the Chair did not quite catch me . I was not asking . I pointed out to the Minister that he should be careful because he is the one who mentioned those words . Now he is doing the very same thing now . My other question is that , I heard that there is going to be new district offices which would be put up at Bolobedu . Is the Minister going to give the people of that place chance to show him the suitable locality for those offices . In connection with road problems I wanted to know the number of bulldozers and how they are employed . The other question is whether he seconded officials in his Department are co - operating between themselves because outside they give some of us trouble . I also want to know from the Minister through you Mr. Chairman whether , when there is going to be some service at a certain place and the Department of Works is requested to help in the preparations , there is a way of showing that when the community of that place want that work done it should pay a certain sum , for one of the seconded officials told me so . I was also told that we the people of Modjadji have wasted money in constructing a stadium although we have not completed it . We were requesting that a place for putting up a secondary school should be cleared for us and we were told that we would have to pay . This was told to me by a white Derson a certain Mr. Van der Merwe .

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Now , I want to know the kind of co- operation we can expect in your Department . I also want to know when is that stadium going to be completed because as it is there is nothing else but dongas and heaps ; they left before it was completed . The road that was constructed by the honourable Malatji while he was the Minister of Works you saw it the other day that it is no longer a road , it has not being repaired . Now my other question is how many keepers of lorries do you allocate to each district because at my place I see only one which keeps on going from place to place , but doing nothing . Now I hear from the honourable members that the Minister of Works is a diligent man . I want to point out that we at Bolobedu did request the Minister of Works to visit us on the 10th of September so that we could show him our problems . He promised that he wou but he never came . Reason? Speaking about the Modjadji Training College will be a waste of time , for I see nothing that is being done . The College has no sports ground , and I do not know where the children do their exercise . My last question , through you Mr. Chairman , is does the Department of Works know anything about an urgent matter or it doesn't know? On our road to Sterkfontein between us and Mamaila , the Molototsi bridge has been swept away and the employees of the Department of Works are not worried . The other day you have seen as we went to the headkraal that that bridge has simply fallen and has no problems . I want to know if they know what an emergency case is . The Minister of Works should take not that offi ers his department outside are not doing anything . They just sit down and say Regional Authorities have no powers . They just look at us as fools. If you go to the magistrate he confesses ignorance . Please find a little remedy to help us . Where do we go when we have problems? Again some of our old men working for the Department of Works are threatened of being dismissed . There is also the matter of sleep out . The labourers have their wages deducted when others are being paid properly . Please explain to us what is wrong .

MR . W.M. KGATLA: Mr. Chairman , I have realised a high abnormality in this House since the beginning of this week . I have been an interpreter for 15 years and you are overweighing our interpreter . He is just alone and he is speaking from sunrise to sunset . Do something about it .

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER :

Yes .

THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable member , the speaker and I have consulted the Secretary and we have discovered that the other interpreter is very ill and we are trying means to get somebody to help him .

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KGOĜI L.L. NTWAMPE : Mr. Chairman , through you to the Minister of Works , truly speaking some other people are worse than Joseph the dreamer . When he dreamt , his dream was better . He dreamt being at the head and it was so. Am I so? We thank you the Minister of Works because what you did is better than what the other Minister have done . Now if they were not able to read was that really our fault? How about if we could impose a levy if we want better things? It is wrong for people to cause a row and point their fingers at the Minister . Honourable members we should know that we are beggars and should not deceive ourselves . Here we have honourable members according to our constituencies . We also have our Magoŝi . Now what worries you? This Department of Works truly speaking controls all the Government works . Now , what else do you want? If you say something additional , they buy you . Now I have only one question to ask the Minister of Works , that is can't he copy? He should copy from T.P.A. how they make the roads .

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER :

Yes .

KGOŝI L.L. NTWAMPE : When I went to school together with Kgoŝi Mothapo , he used to copy from my books ( laughter) . Now I find no fault with him , I wash my hands . Everybody makes mistakes .

MR . GAD M. SEKHUKHUNE : There are not many remarks I would like to make . Many have already been mentioned . To the Minister of Works I say I congratulate him for not having begun in his constituency . When a person dishes out food , he gives others first before he takes his own share . You did well . I do not have questions to put to you but I have a message for you and this is it . We are lucky out in Sekhukhuneland , for we have a big beautiful firm which pays . the people satisfactorily ; it is at Tubatse . It was inaugurated in September but just now it already has 330 workers . It has put up a fine big location for our people . Now , this is their message of request . They are tarring the streets in the location and also their roads up to your road . Now , they have sent me to request you to meet them half way by tarring the remaining 13km from the firm , for that road is busy day and night and all the days of the weekend are included . They will be very grateful if you could help by doing that part . I am also thankful to see that machinery at the township is used to pump water from Steelpoort to the school . They drink it unpurified . Last year people were seriously infected by disease especially school children who suffered from typhoid from that water . I understand you have installed new machines for purifying the water . I would also be happy if you could consult with

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at Praktiseer . Their houses are ordinary match boxes . Also at the Dr. Phatudi Training College , there are no teachers quarters . Please pay attention to them also . We will be thankful Mr. Minister ; I also praise you .

MR.M.J. RATALE : As I am occupying the position of Chief Whip at this moment I find it my duty to supervise the proceedings . Now , Mr. Chairman all the members with a few exceptions are marming the same tune MR . T.P. MAKOLA: Mr. Chairman , we are not here to play I am wondering if the honourable Mr. Ratale is seated legally.

MR . M.J. RATALE : Mr. Chairman , leave him just like that . We are not playing I am just here to see that we don't play . Now, Mr. Chairman and through you I notice that this House has agreed , there is no one opposing . To save time of this House I think it would be better if we proceed to deal with the matter of this vote clause by clause so that we can dispose of it . ( PANDEMONIUM ) MR . A.S. MAHLANGU: Mr. Chairman , I have a few questions . Did the honourable the Minister of Works consult with T.P.A. about the repairing of the Mphahlele - Middelburg road? I mean they should tar it . If he did consult with them , what was their reply? In the same way the road from Groblersdal . Is it ever going to be tarred for it is their road , that is it used by the T.P.A. ? We want it also to be tarred . All these roads in Lebowa are disrepair , and we can all write to him . Through you Mr. Chairman , I wish to bring this to his notice that there are certain road scrapers working at Lepelle ; some work in towns like Motetema and Hlogotlou . Now we are short of roads because of these machines . They make our hearts sore because they scrape only the streets in towns . They work a bit and you find them standing for the whole week and they do not scrape for all the Dikgoŝi . Please see to it that when they have finished scraping in town , they should go to scrape for the Dikgoŝi . Now , I want to say something about electricity through you Mr. Chairman . All the dikgoŝi in Nebo have built schools and have established their villages and they are short of electricity . I want to know whether electricity is supplied by this Department or ESCOM? Is it still the Secretary of this Department , Mr. Minnie , who is refusing to have electricity supplied to our place? Now that I am asking during his presence in this House , I wish to request him that he should install electricity there . I also want to let him know that there are two bridges requiring to be repaired between Spitzkop and Hlogotlou , so that our people should not die .

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MR . M.T. BOPAPE : Mr. Chairman , I will ask only two questions . Through you Mr. Chairman , I have this small question to the Minister of Works . Why is it that when these road-making machines are in disorder they take such a long time to be repaired . This also applies to the lorries for the road works . If they get broken , they spend such a long time being repaired and by the time they come back the roads to know if you do not have are in disrepair. Now , I wish another way by which you could improve this situation . You will find the workers also confused not knowing what they can do , carrying shovels up and down the road , sitting down in places and dozing . Through you Mr. Chairman , here is one important question to the Minister of Works . Those men who have been appointed to supervise the roads , being black man , can you give them additional powers so that they should control the matters of works as they control people along the roads? Another question to the Minister of Works is that last year I made a very important request in connection with buses . I said at our place there are places where there are no roads and the bus owners refuse to go to those places because the roads are not in a good state of repair . The local people took the initiative to uproar the bushes personally and removed them and expected the machines to come and scrape and to fill up the holes. Up to now this matter did not receive any attention . Buses do not come into the village . People have to travel two miles on foot when coming from the towns going home . This matter is very serious because robbers have undertaken to way lay them in the bushes . Already three people have died along this road . The ball is in the court of this department . They have uprooted the trees ; a distance of from here ( Seshego ) to Pietersburg , using picks and shovels. My urgent request is that this matter should receive attention .

KGOĜI P.S. PHASHA : Mr. Chairman , my questions are not many . I wish to thank the Minister of Works , and I am also glad that the faults he committed are compensated by the lot of good he has accomplished . To show truly that there is a lot of good things , he will carry out these requests . There is a beautiful but very small bridge at Ga- Nkwane called Stephen Phasha bridge . The bridges he has recently constructed are very beautiful . Now can't he make this one more beautiful? My second question is in connection with the road starting from Apel to the headkraal of the Baroka- ba- Nkwana . That road is troublesome . All the bus owners refuse to use it , to bring us post and other goverment service to the Baroka offices . When you enquire about the cause of their refusal they state that Lebowa is no longer permitting them . My third question is in connection with the road from Schoonoord to Pietersburg . There is a place where it has been recently constructed . the place called Phasha- Pass . That part damages a lot of lorries because of the steep slope .

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On the whole it looks a fine road , but recently two fine lorries have capsized . Could n't you widen it so that this great loss of the Lebowa property together with peoples lives can be reduced to a minimum? Could you please pay us a visit one day so that I can show you our beautiful Kwano School . The road to it is as if it was made for sledges . Could you order that road be repaired? I conclude by pointing out that that Mohlaletsi bridge is too narrow . When will you widen it? I feel certain the honourable the Minister being young will be active to carry out our wishes . Thank you. KGOSI A.S. MOLEPO : Mr. Chairman , I am asking the Minister of Works to help by answering the following questions . 1.

Last year I consulted with our Minister in connection with road from Chuenespoort to Kgoŝigadi Ledwaba . Now , I want to know from our Minister whether this road has been constructed .

2.

I want to know from the Minister how many bridges he has already constructed , how many he has started and how many he has not yet constructed .

Could the Minister enlighten us on the number of qualified engineers for the construction of bridges in his department . At these places which I will enumerate . At Mphahlele there is the Hlakoro River . On it there are two places which are troublesome to the people of Mphahlele on their way to the headkraal . Now , I want to know when the Minister will make bridges on the ford to the headkraal . There is also a ford below Ga- Morake next to the Kwaratlou School .

THE MINISTER OF WORKS : Honourable House , Kgoŝi Molepo is asking me when I will construct bridges , but he never told me to make bridges . He is the M.P. of the place and he should have told me where bridges are required .

THE CHAIRMAN : The honourable Minister , I don't think you should bother yourself to answer . You will answer tomorrow when they have all put questions to you . And when you find a question is not necessary you know you are allowed to say " I can't answer that question " . I still want to give other speakers chance to speak . KGOŝI A.S. MOLEPO : Mr. Chairman , I want to know which places I have enumerated which are included in questions of every day. Now , I want to know from the Minister whether he has already paid a visit to the Thabamoopo constituency . As far as I know since you took over the chair of being a Minister of Works I never saw you in Thabamoopo . I also want to know whether he knows that in Thabamoopo we have more than thirteen dikgoŝi . Does he know that if he never appears to them ; they complain . That is why I raise such a question .

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Now when we look at our book on page 17 ( i ) ( c ) there is R7544 000. This money is too much and the Government of Lebowa acts as if they do not see it . Recently we were complaining that the Department of Education has nothing whereas a lot of money is piled on where it is not going to be used for anything .

THE CHAIRMAN : Order honourable member . I think I will ask you to put that question when we come to the vote itself . HONOURABLE MEMBERS :

Yes .

KGOĜI A.S. MOLEPO : Here on page 17 , mention about construction of the Lebowakgomo offices .

is made

THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable member , you will remember that we are here discussing the principles . AN HONOURABLE MEMBER :

The merits?

THE CHAIRMAN : And the merits . When we get to the vote itself , all those questions that you are asking will come , when we come to section by section . KGOĜI A.S. MOLEPO : I am still proceeding . There are places where the Minister of Works has sent his gangs to make bridges . Now , I want to know from our Minister how it come about that he removed those he had sent to construct bridges and to lay a water pipe . They were the very experts in the making of bridges . Now , the people have been sent to Chuenespoort to go to mould water pipes . I want to know why that person was removed from bridge - making when we have so much need for bridges . I also want to know from our Minister .

THE CHAIRMAN: Order honourable member , upt up your questions . If you give us a lecture then you take much of your time .

MR . M.F. MAMETJA: Mr. Chairman , I do not have many words to say to this matter of the Minister of Works but to praise him as a careful Minister on what he does . I also want to say that the path along which he is moving regarding works is excellent , indeed if he keeps up , the whole nation will praise him for it is not long that he has started but his work is already better than of that who had been at it for many years . What I wish to request from the Minister of Works is this . At my place he has made fine bridges which are wonderful . Anyone can go there to satisfy his curiosity that indeed he has constructed them . The other Ministers were unable to make those bridges for a very long time . Now from Mabienscross to Mamet jaskraal , the road there is still giving some trouble , for the place is

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really bad . I have hope that if he can go to see that place as I know him to be enthusiastic , he can put it right within a short time . There is a small matter which is disappointing and that is in connection with the constructors of bridges . There is no complete harmony between the seconded officials and the workers If I can show you the salary of the man who contructed the bridges at Mametja , you will feel very sad . There is no difference between his bridge and the bridges of TPA but his salary is R44,57 per month . When he complaints about his salary , he is told that he is not trained in school , although he is better than certificated people . The person who told him about certificate is not the Minister of Works . He gets this from the seconded officials . But indeed honourable House , if you can see the bridges put up by this man , you can pity him very much . If the Minister can go and see the bridge and compare it with the salary he will see that there is great disparity . I thank you and I even praise you . You have broken the record of the earlier Ministers .

MR . M.S. MASHIANE : Mr. Chairman , I want to ask the Minister of Works two or three questions . I want to know why you do not say anything about the town of Lebowakgomo which is not a township . I remember last year Mr. Kgatla and I struggled hard requesting to know who was erecting Lebowakgomo , and whose it is . I asked whether Lebowakgomo was being put up by the Municipality of Germiston or the Minister . He assured us that Lebowakgomo was being constructed by himself. I also asked when the electricity would be installed in the houses in Lebowakgomo . He answered that before the end of 1976 electricity would have been installed and that the posts had already been planted . I asked him where he would get the current and he said from ESCOM . Now , I want to notify that this town is in the bush . Our cattle are being stolen and people kill them in the darkness . There are no lights inside those houses . We are asking you to install lights in those houses . If you have any plan which you have contrived just satisfy me by telling me when lights can be expected and where they will come from . The second question . Last year you said you would extend the Groothoek Hospital . When we asked what kind of hospital he said it was a special hospital . Now we do not see any construction going on and yet last they said they would built . Now my last request is that those who are able to donate money for the erection of stadiums let them give you so that you should erect stadium at Lebowakgomo . We ask you to make a stadium for the Lebowakgoma people where they can recreate themselves .

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KGOSI E.M. MOGASHOA: by item .

I move that we treat the matter item

MR . W.M. KGATLA : We had already moved before Kgoŝi Mogashoa , we are just surprised that he wastes his time . The Chief Whip and the Assistant Whip , let us treat it item by item . THE CHAIRMAN :

Kgoŝi Mogashoa , say whatever you wanted to

say. KGOĜI E.M. MOGASHOA : Mr. Chairman , I stand to move that we treat it item by item because I don't see anything that we are doing here except merely to emphasise what has already been done . MR . L.M. MADISHA : Mr. Chairman , I have two or three questions and I will not take too much . I wish to ask the Minister of Works with a surprise . I left here visiting Shongoane's place . I found road being repaired and it was great work , and this was pleasing to me because I could see the work progressing . When I went again I found heaps and furrows and the road left uncompleted . Now , I want to know from the Minister of Works why that road was left uncompleted .

THE CHAIRMAN : Order honourable member . I don't know whether you were outside . It was put by someone in this House . Get on with another question .

MR . L.M. MADISHA : I have another question here : When school building materials are brought to the school the principals sign for them that they have been received . But when the goods go away , they simply find them gone . I am speaking of what I have seen , not a hear say matter , what is the cause . At the Matladi High School there came roofing iron and bricks . They were used for building and the school was completed . The materials remained . When I went to enquire about the material which had remained , the principal said he simply saw a lorry being loaded with it and going away ; he does not know where it has gone to . I also ask the Minister to inform us why he has promised that the road from Mpepeng- wa- Basadi to the tall would be tarred it is also suddenly left . We also asked that a bridge be constructed at Slypsteen . When the river is flooded children can't go to school . Moreover this is the third year that we have been talking about this matter .

THE CHAIRMAN : Order member , I have to repeat what I said yesterday , particularly about our honourable Magoŝi . If you give them chance to speak , they don't want to listen any more to any other speaker . They are holding caucuses when an honourable member is standing . Continue honourable member .

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MR . S.S. MOTHAPO: Mr. Chairman , please reprimand your Whips here . They are making a hell of noise and unwarrantable noise too .

MR. L.M. MADISHA : My request is just that the Minister should help us . For two years we have been asking for a bridge at Slypsteen to enable children to go across to school . When the river is inflood they are not able to cross .

THE CHAIRMAN : I am appealing to this House now to tell me whether there are still people with new questions and new ideas , no repetition . THE HONOURABLE MEMBERS :

Yes .

KGOŜIGADI J. MAHLO: Mr. Chairman , I think the Minister has done good job . But on my own I fear to speak in this House . I will consult with him in his office . There is only one little point which he should complete . It is not something that I should make noise about . Thank you .

MR . I.M. MODJADJI : Mr. Chairman , I think it is an indisputable matter and it is the policy of South Africa that there should be apartheid , apartheid which the members in here are promoting . In that way we are all in the apartheid system interjections ) THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable member , I want to know how related that apartheid is with the Department of Works . MR . M.I. MODJADJI : been slumbering MR . W.M. KGATLA :

Thank you Mr. Chairman , if I have

" Geographically where are we?

MR . M.I. MODJADJI : Mr. Chairman , we have been sitting here listening to other members speaking . We never interfered . Here we are now trying to takl and they are interfering with our talks .

THE CHAIRMAN : The Assistant Whip has put it to the Chair in a very awkward position . He has placed the two honourable members there . MR . I.M. MODJADJI : Mr. Chairman , I was still talking on the policy of separate development . Every body knows that we are on the policy of separate development . Nobody can deny that and as such , Mr. Chairman , I was coming to this point that we are promoting apartheid .

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Are we then citizens of this country?

MR . M.J. RATALE : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman . I still repeat that while I am on this chair I must see to it that matter proceed well . Now , the honourable member for Bolobedu , it would appear , is saying something which is related to the policy speech of the Chief Minister , not the Minister of Works . The way he speaks I think he is wasting the time of this House . I was asking the honourable member to be relevant to the point at issue . I am not stopping him from speaking as I have authority to stop him , but let him be relevant to the matter connected with the Minister of Works . Further than that I am going to use the virtue of any seat to stop him from continuing .

THE CHAIRMAN : On that note the House will adjourn until tomorrow at 9h00 .

THE HOUSE ADJOURNS AT 17h00 .

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1977 : FRIDAY THE 22ND APRIL . THE SITTING COMMENCED AT 9.25 a.m. THE SPEAKER : Let us take seat .

We proceed to item

two . MR M.J. PHASHA: Mr Speaker, Sir , I move that the minutes be accepted as such . KGOŠI K.P. PHASHA:

I second him , Mr Speaker .

THE SPEAKER : Item three and four . We proceed : item four , five , six , seven . Honourable members , oh ! I am sorry . THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Mr Speaker, Sir , in accordance with a resolution passed by this hon . House on April the 25th 1974 , the State President by virtue of Proclamation R.38 of 1977 has declared " Morena Boloka Sechaba sa gešo" as a national Anthem for Lebowa . Thank you!

THE SPEAKER : Honourable Members , let us agree properly on the question of transferring money from one vote to another Let us look at Rule 129 and 143. I give you that as home work Please go and look into that . Now we shall proceed to item nine We go to item ten . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker ; honourable members , I have a few questions to reply to . There were questions on Hansards of 1972 , 1973 and 1976. The issues of the 1972 and 1973 Hansards are with the printers , and will be made available to the honourable members as soon as they are received . A reminder has been sent to the printers asking that the matter be expedited . The 1976 Hansards are also with the printers . According to the information , the Hansards are ready except for the Northern Sotho cover . The Speaker visited Cape Town and with the experience gained from the visit a submission is being prepared for Lebowa Government Service Commission for the creation of additional post for the Hansard team . The volume of work is increasing and has increased substantially and it is absolutely necessary to increase the manpower if we have to overcome the prevailing difficulty . Mr Speaker , I am therefore very confident that the future publications of our Hansards will be expedited .

There was a question on the boundary of Tubatse , the boundary between us and the White Community . This question was asked I think by Kgoši Malekana . In this regard I have to comment as follows : All the tribes in Lebowa are considered when farms are allocated , including the Sekhukhuneland people . This was one of the inquiries made by Kgoši Malekana . And secondly there is a question of the river boundary . The Tubatse River at Steelpoort is not the boundary between Lebowa and the White area . Lebowa only borders as far as Tubatse from the farm Apiesboom no . 884 to the farm Goodeverwachting no . 332 , and then only at the farms Bothashoek no . 276 and Praktiseer no . 275 . From the common boundary of Praktiseer no . 275 and Alberton no . 274 . The Tubatse River is within the Lebowa Territory to the point where it flows into the Olifants River . So it should be understood that at certain areas it seems to be in the boundary , but

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then goes right inside Lebowa again where it joins the Olifants River . Then there was a question too , Mr Speaker , from the question of establishment . There was a schedule on the establishment showing the people employed to the service of Lebowa under the Department of Finance and Authority Affairs . The question was " are these 163 posts in my particular Department occupied by Lebowa officials , excluding the seconded officials . " The answer is : of the 163 posts 149 are Lebowa officials and 14 are seconded officials . There was a question as to whether the firm Ferochrome is a border industry or is within Lebowa . This comes from the honourable T.P. Makola . The answer is ye , it is a border industry ; but I am glad to add that we are moving away from border industries and we are trying to get them inside Lebowa . It is the policy of this Government that border industries are not a healthy development at all . We want the industries to be within this territory . And all our negotiations with the industrialists and entrepreneurs under present circumstances are emphasising our wish in this regard . In fact as far as the policy of this government is concerned we think that if we consolidate Lebowa , all the so- called border industries should fall within the territory because it is to our advantage , not our disadvantage , meaning the blacks of South Africa . I must add by way of clarification that when B.I.C. was in charge of our affairs in this regard , it encouraged the establishment of border industries and its reasons has been that it is not sure whether homeland governments would be favourably disposed towards the industrialists . Now, we want to clear the air that we want industrialists to trust us mutually just as we have got to trust them mutually . That is the futre for us all . We have a very typically illustrious example here of the Supersonic plant . It is within , not outside Lebowa and to the mutual benefit of all concerned . I want to proceed to say that that is the policy of this government .

please !

MR T.P. MAKOLA: On a point of order , Mr Speaker , May I make a follow up .

THE SPEAKER :

No , I will give you chance .

THE CHIEF MINISTER :

THE SPEAKER :

Please proceed .

MR T.P. MAKOLA: THE SPEAKER :

Must I proceed?

A follow- up , Mr Speaker!

I will give you chance to speak .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : The next one is in connection with a national issue . The question in connection with shootings that took place at Verina. This is a question from the hon . Mr Kwakwa of the Mokerong Constituency . It is common knowledge , Mr Speaker , that there were shootings that took place in the area of Verina in the area of Groblersdal . I hope I am not making mistakes of dates . I think the shootings took place on the 28th of December . *!*! ictims in this regard were young girls and young women who came from Brits and were transported

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by a truck to their respective homes in Sekhukhuneland . The information we gathered in this regard was that as the truck passed along the road , it back fired and the report sounded like the report of a gun . There were white women I think not very far away from the area where the sound come from . It is reported that they mistook that that was a gun fire aimed at them . They contacted the police which was not far away from them , and it is reported that the police went out quickly to stop the vehicle . It is reported that the driver of the vehicle did not stop , when the police tried to stop him . It is reported that the police opened fire on the truck . It is reported that the police aimed at the wheels of the vehicles but in fact the shots shot at the legs of the people who were inside the trucks and the victims were rushed to the hospital at Philadelphia . When I heard the report - I read the report in the " Daily Mail " - I rushed to the scene on the 31st December , to see the victims myself in the hospital and to gather the information from the hospital authorities . I asked through the usual channel that the chief of the police must meet me there . And although I did not get the top man of the police because of other engagements , I got somebody in the command . He was not the man that fired the shots nor was he accompanied by the man who fired the shots . So he only reported to me what he had heard . I was not satisfied with that at all . So , I went and saw the patients . Three of the patients had suffered critical serious injuries because the bones had been cracked by bullets . They have been cracked - well , I do not know whether they were really broken, but they have been touched by the bullets . And the wounds were in the area of the leg between the knee and the foot . The other patients - I think they were five in all - had received muscle injuries , not hit bones . But they were all in the hospital except one who had been discharged as - I believe - the injuries she suffered weren't that serious . Mr Speaker , I asked for the information from each and every patient as to what time of the day shots were fired . Was it at sunset was it in the evening or was it late in the afternoon or early in the afternoon . These were the questions I put , and they all , without any difference in opinion , said that it was before sunset . They were clear about it . It was in the afternoon but there was still sunshine . And the press reported , of course , that it was somewhere late in the evening . So there was a real difference of facts . And I was satisfied with the report of the patients because they were not in one ward others where in another ward and they didn't hear what I was saying to the others . But their submissions were the same in this regard . Mr Speaker , Sir , I told the police officer that this matter was serious and that I demanded a full report of the police . The police officer said definitely that that would be given . I reported the matter to the Department of Justice here in Lebowa and I asked the department concerned to communicate with the Central Government in this regard . And they did . They showed me communication that said that the matter had reached the Attorney General and his report was being awaited . I am still waiting now to hear and see in black and white what the Attorney General has decided to do in this connection .

270

Long afterwards I was surprised to be shown that in Parliament of the Republic of South Africa in Cape Town , the Minister of Justice , Mr Kruger , said that Lebowa had not lodged any complaint . I despised that report . I thought it was infra- dig and I still think it was not accurate . If the Minister does not know what the Attorney General has and so forth , then I am blue . To me it doesn't matter what the Attorney General said . We will take this up to the Minister himself . The plain truth is that people have been shot , and they are lying in the hospital and three of them are seriously injured , and nobody knows whether they will still be able to make use of the limbs that have been shot . And I am satisfied that in the presence of His Excellency the Commissioner- General , I am making this statement . We will see these things to the bitterest end ; that is in so far as civil proceedings and criminal proceedings are concerned . I enquired as to where these victims came from in Sekhukhuneland . I was advised that they all of them proceeded to contact Kgoši Ntwampe in this regard , with the view to enable the victims to take civil proceedings ; and proceedings are now on . I should add that the Minister of Health found time to go after me . And he himself saw the victims . So , Mr Speaker , Sir , that is the position in a nutshell regarding the shootings at Verina . It is clear that we are still proceeding with this difficult matter . There is a question from Kgoši Mothapo as to how far we have gone with accommodation - finding alternative farms for the people of Kgosigadi Ledwaba , because some of the farms which they used to occupy have been allocated to Lebowakgomo . The Central Government is intending to buy the farms this side of Chuene mountains and we are negotiating with the Central Government that some of those farms be allocated to Kgosigadi Ledwaba in order to make good for the farms that have been taken away from them by Lebowakgomo . On the question of sales tax I am glad to tell the hon . House that I have written to the Hon . the Commissioner- General requesting the Central Government to exempt tribal authorities from sales tax ; and to raise sales tax at the point of salę and not at the point of manufacture or import as the first point has more advantages than at the point of manufacture . And I am sure His Excellency , the Commissioner- General will communicate accordingly . On the question of a report by the Pretoria University professors on the overall planning project of the Lebowa Territory , the reports are fat things like this and we are arranging that these reports be made available in Libraries here , our Library here and any member who is interested in such reports and such things can go to the Library and read them che. or borrow them . I am not so sure , Mr Speaker , Sir , I think they could be sold to anybody who wants to buy them . Now, I come to the last question . This is a tricky one and honestly I don't know. I looked up in the dictionary but it doesn't have these things . The dictionaries we have don't seem to have them . Now I will be guided by the Hon . House . The first question is , and it comes from the hon . member of Mokerong , Mr. L.M. Madisha . What is the difference between

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an induna and rammotwana? Tha's the first question . I looked up in the dictionary , and it has got rammotwana . So, I don't know what the difference is between the two . I will be guided by this House . Now the second question is really similar and it really flows from the first one . Who is the senior to the other? The one called induna or the one called rammotwana? I am incapable of answering that question too because I do not know rammotwana and induna . I hear it always that the kgoši has borammotwana in the tribe . I always think that borammotwana are the same as Matona ( indunas ) . I don't quite know. But it would appear from the questioner here that there is difference , and he wants to know what qualifies a man to be called rammotwana as mentioned in the Minister's speech . Mr Speaker , I have the word induna and understood rammotwana to be an induna and if that is not correct , I will be glad to be corrected . So I am sorry that I am incapable of being useful in this regard , but I depend on the wisdom of this House to straighten up the record . The other question which I've just received right now is in this connection ; it comes from the hon . Kgoši P. Nkadimeng . I haven't got a ready answer to this . I will have to discuss the matter with him . But the question is : I would like to know the main work of Mr Kruger , and the country of his origin You see if you say Mr Kruger , there are so many Krugers here and they are all Messrs . So I do not know which one .

KGOŠI P. NKADIMENG : It is Walker , Mr Speaker . Walker ! I want to know the country of origin of Walker and what is his work . Sorry!

This is Kruger .

THE CHIEF MINISTER :

No.

KGOŠI P. NKADIMENG :

You are right , Sir .

THE CHIEF MINISTER :

So it has to be reframed .

KGOSI P. NKADIMENG :

I'll do that .

THE CHIEF MINISTER :

Mr Speaker , Sir !

You are

dead right !

MR T.P. MAKOLA: Mr Speaker, during the budget speech of the Hon . the Chief Minister I posed this question . Have your economic visits overseas been beneficial to us? And his answer was yes they have been beneficial to us and he quoted the establishment of Ferochrome as an example . That is why I wanted to know from the Hon . the Chief Minister whether Ferochrome is within Lebowa or outside Lebowa? And the answer from the Hon . the Chief Minister , Mr Speaker , this House will bear me out was as follows : "It is outside Lebowa . " Mr Speaker , I now demand to know from the Hon . the Chief Minister how a firm which is situated outside Lebowa could feature in this economic missions overseas . It is clear to this hon . House , Mr Speaker , that the firm Ferochrome , according to the explanations from the Hon . the Chief Minister , falls outside our political and economic jurisdiction . Mr Speaker , I am aware of the immense help the Ferochrome is to the nation of Lebowa . It offers employment to the people of

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Lebowa, but this is as good as getting help from any other outside industry . These other industries never , never , never feature in our economic mission overseas . That is why, Mr Speaker , I would like the Honourable the Chief Minister to put me clear . Thank you , Mr Speaker . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker, that is very simple to answer that . Give me the opportunity of removing ignorance on the part of the majority of the people of Lebowa and perhaps a majority of the people within this House . I went to New York to the headquarters of the firm that is dealing with the Ferochrome operations , and discussed with the head directors there the wishes of Lebowa in so far as that particular plant is concerned . It will be realised if you know the Geography of the place very well that the particular location of the Ferochrome firm is really within Lebowa , you can say . It should be , I mean , the kind of situation that is there , it is practically our thing ; and they admit the fact that that plant will be run almost exclusively by black ingenuity and black power . The directors said to me they would have loved to put it right inside , but as things are they had to put it on the border . And they said : "Look, we are going to give you a beautiful town within your area . " And those who know the area , know that the township there is one of our most beautiful modern township ever . I think it stand - it can hold its own in comparison with Lebowakgomo . It has got that particular township which has been built through my influence , and it has got American sophistications . You gonna have a look at facilities there and the way things are . And they take that as part of the immense operation of the Ferochrome plant . In addition , when I was in the United States discussing the matter with the top people there , they said to me : "Your people are going to run that firm from the top to the bottom . The white people who will be there , will be very small in numbers . " I went down to examine the position , myself . I went to the white township accross the Tubatse River , and I went accross to see our township , and I made the comparisons and I remembered what the American authorities told me about the developments there . They have a training scheme and are training our folk to manage , and to keep positions in the firm . And they told me nothing stops any of our people to be right on the top of the scales . This is a particular firm for all intents and purposes that operates under our influence . As it is , on the 18th of May , they are going to have a ceremony there to in anqurate the operations . And we will be in full force there . There is no firm any where , that has ever done this- to recognise the fact that the blacks have a very big stake in this particular firm . And these are the fruits of my American journeys . T am intending to intensify my pressure on these various firms . I am not interested in Pietersburg . I haven't got much influence but I have got tremendous influence on supersonic plant as well as Ferochrome , and this government will have tremendous influence in France with the French operations that are going to start at Middelburg one of these days . And I expect I will be in France one of these days to discuss the details of our operations . And I am satisfied , Mr Speaker , that this government has placed this territory on the man politically. industrially and culturally .

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I must add before I resume my seat , Mr Speaker , the point regarding salaries and wages . The Americans have told me that there will not be such things as black wages . Wage for the job will be the state of affairs at Ferochrome . And in this regard , I take it as the result of negotiation between me and the head directorate . I do not for one moment think myself a stranger in Johannesburg . I am not going to allow myself to be misled by anybody else who speaks of a black man being a stranger or a temporary sojourner from anywhere in South Africa . People who suffer from inferiority complex are not my companions . People who suffer from superiority complex are not in my company ; and the groups of the mediocrities are not in my company . I belong to those who have balanced assessment of values . And I find a lot of company in Ferochrome and I want to persue this with all the vim that I have . Mr Speaker , I want to emphasise that my travels to America have been fruitful to this territory . And you will see one of these days , the result of my French exploits . Mr Speaker , Sir ! MR S.P. KWAKWA: Mr Speaker , I want to compliment the Chief Minister as well as the Minister of Health who^ promptly went to the hospital to see those children who were victims of that deplorable shooting . And I am happy steps have been taken to follow up the matter . This was a big concern to all the people who worried themselves about the welfare of the Africans in this country . I am only a bit worried that there has been a little delay in reacting to that pronouncement by the Minister of Police when he said Lebowa was not interested in an enquiry . I really feel there should be an enquiry . I mean if the aim was to shoot at the wheels , why is it that there were so many bullets , all missing the wheels , but getting at the children . We have never known the police missing their target . In the riots that took place in the big cities , they always got their targets . How is it that this time they miss the wheels of a big lorry and shoot the children on the lorry. This was deliberate . And therefore it must be put in black and white that there has been some recklessness on the part of the police . That's why I insist on an enquiry . If this does not take place , the image of Lebowa will suffer . And the Minister says legal action is being taken and a civil case is on May . I know who is going to foot the bill of the legal expenses because I cannot think of those children being able to pay the legal costs . Thank you , Mr Speaker .

THE SPEAKER : Sorry, Honourable members . I wish to advise the members that when a question has been answered we should not continue to debate on it in order to respect our Rule 92 of the Rules of Procedure . The hon . the Chief Minister . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker and the hon . members , in this regard I will speak from my experience . The position is , in civil action the lawyers concerned will get what he gets from the proceedings when the case is clear . They won't take a doubtful case in a civil action . So they take a case where they know they are going to get what is required , and they never ask for any money from the start . They will make their claim when the proceedings will have been completed . And the charges are framed in such a way that they see which side they play this part . I had some consultation with some legal men . And I am not able to discuss the details now, but I see this in the line that will be followed . Thank you , Sir .

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THE SPEAKER :

We will proceed with questions and

answers .

THE MINISTER OF WORKS : There are a few answers which I would like to give . Mr Speaker , and hon . members , most of the questions which I got yesterday are requests of what I should be ordered to do . Now when they give instruction I do not know what I should say which will satisfy them at this stage . For instance , if a member states that on the road to his home there is no bridge and asks whether I will make it , he can only get satified when I have made the bridge , not by my answering "yes " . There are more than twenty questions and most of them are instructions of what I should do . With regard to the request which require to be accomplished by hands , I am not going to reply because no answer can be given except when they have been accomplished . I am still arranging with my Department . I've also done my best to arrange the items of our work in orderly details when I was reading my policy speech . Members ask me why I did not put up a house for inspectors at their places and why I put up a prison at their place . If there is any thing connected with prisons , please consult people who arrest . If there is something of which you complain in connection with education , please ask from the people connected with education . Even if I notice that the Department of Education is short of buildings and they are suing shanties , there is nothing I can do even though I have showels and frowels in my hands unless they ask me to put up the buildings . If I find prisoners sleeping in a lorry because of the lack of cells , I just pass because they have not asked me to build cells . But if they ask me to build , I will build . When I have completed they must not ask me why I put up a cell on this or that particular spot . Members should understand that I am not quarrelling with them . I've tried to put my statements clearly to show that I am a builder . After building I go away and do not worry myself as to how the building is being used . My work is to construct and go . I do not know for what use they put up the structure . Mr Kwakwa asked me about the Government vehicles and told me about a disease . It is the disease which I found here . I've tried various remedies but I did not succeed . I think I will not be beaten for a long time because I am following it . I sometimes met an L.G. lorry at 2 o'clock on Sunday carrying women , and when I inquired about where they were going , they told me that they were coming over here , maintaining that they work in the firm . I wanted to know whether being women they stay here during the week . I did not proceed further with them . Otherwise I would be doing the work of the police and not that of a Minister. I have already taken the whole Cabinet to the workshop to show them the cars that are out of order . We found one hundred and we found that all were out of order within a period of a year of all these , those which were involved in accidents and had been reported to the police were only six; not even ten . There was not one car which had collided with a another . Now , Hon . members please know what your people do with the cars of your government . If it has not fallen into a donga , it has crushed into a tree . There are actually 10-tons among them which have capsised . Now hon. members , you as members of Parliament , as Lebowa people, you see what is happening to the property of your government.

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What is disappointing is that members will see such happenings and leave them , saying they will come to ask the Minister after the opening of the next session , i.e. after ten months when these things are long damaged . Now I have tried in this way to reply to Mr Kwakwa's question the House should also be helpful that the matter of the vehicles be attended to . We blame the departments individually . Now the members should have their pens ready and jot down . In the Department of the Chief Minister and of Finance , we have given out 12 vehicles ; To Interior we have allotted 24 , Woks 288 , Education 70 , Agriculture and Forestry ealth 191. Each of these departments has 335 , Justice 71 taken charge of its vehicles . We have given them to look after them . This is the way we allot them . But this House thinks that all these damaged property is the responsibility of Works . Works , just look at your things here . Just look , look , look . I request the member for Sekhukhuneland please to take his seat .

Now I want to help this House . It does not help just to know that Finance is allotted 12 ; Interior 24 and so on, without knowing what make of car or what kind . I am going to request my Department to state clearly that Finance is in charge of L.G. 1 , L.G. 10 , L.G. 6 , L.G. 7 up to 12. At the end of the session I will supply information so that when you see them damaged anywhere , you should know that this is for the Interior this is for Works , etc. Next year we will be able to determine which Department has damaged more vehicles . I am coming back next year . Next year we will also look to see of 335 vehicles allotted to the Department of Agriculture and Forestry how many have been damaged etc. These things concern all the Department and we have even requested the Department of Justice to formulate rules by which we shall charge people who have damaged vehicles . This is being done . The making of a law is difficult . It cannot just be done in a day . Also a good number of these damaged vehicles have killed people . They kill a lot of people . It is said they drive being drunk . I have not seen them but it is said they drink while carrying people . The cars capsise and the people die . We tried to request the Department of Justice ....... of Agriculture to help us with the officers of Flora and Fauna to take care of vehicles , for they are always moving about all over . Our Traffic section also were asked to take care " but they are not able . On this point there is no one who can deny . You all know . The way you see them is not the way we want them . I do not know they work even in the night at 12 o'clock Now I do not know whether you could say a man moving in a car is not working . If he tells you he is working in the night you will have no evidence to the contrary . Now where your vehicles are concerned , they are yours these things , do not wait only to come to tell the Minister during the session . You see them in June and you wait to come to tell him in March , that does not help . When I expect my tippers to repair roads . They hire them out and use them for private works . You hire them and use them for your family services ; then you come here to tell me that my things are not doing good work .

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Now , my countrymen , let us cooperate . Now another question comes from Mr Kwakwa . He wants to know how it comes about that only Mahwe lereng should be provided with water meters . When I have told you maybe you will agree . I do not know, but I will try to satisfy you . Members complain that during the weekends there is no enough water in our townships , especially here at Seshego . We get water from Ebenezer Dam and from our own dam , and that is enough; but during the weekends people run short of it . That is true . But the reason is that , let me tell you , every person is able to use water as he likes because he does not pay for it . If we install meters some people will not make gardens , they will say it is a waste of money to water gardens . But just know if you go round you will find that they have bought sprinklers ; they just put them on from eight o'clock in the morning and only close them in the evening . The water runs the whole day whereas in Zone I they have no water . We have tried every method and ultimately have decided that there should be a remedy , because people will use water as they like as long as they do not pay for it . Now , hon . member , we are not installing meters only in Mokerong . Even at Namakgale we are going to install them . Even here at Seshego you will notice that when you have a fridge and a stove in the house , and I have only lights without a stove and a fridge , we cannot pay the same at the end of the months . Thus it shows development to install meters because the rent accruing from there will be useful . I have heard that the rent that we get here is only able to pay the rent . It does nothing else .You are not paying for water at all whereas we are working at it . I believe your question on water has been answered unless the honourable member is not satisfied ; but that is the position . I have heard people asking why we are concerned about Zone III whereas there is shortage of water at Mahwelereng . There is plenty of water at Mahwelereng except that it is not carefully used . We will come and put things in order . You will see . And you will no longer drink impure water . We have bought new machines I have set aside R80 000 to put things right in Mahwelereng you will come again to Parliament , because the Mahwelereng community will be satisfied . According to rules of development , we do not lead the water from the river and reticulate it to the people straight away . We purify it first , 40 times to make it suitable for human consumpsion before we supply it . I heard of a complaint from the member for Thabamoopo that there is sand in the Seshego water . Yes he is saying the truth though I think they have told him . I do not believe he made a personal observation because he does not stay at Seshego . There are many houses here without geysers . That trouble comes from our machines and we are taking the necessary remedial steps . I'm sure you did not notice that in my office we have big parcels , vessels which we extracted from the drains . We have supplied you with dust bins in which to cast refuge but you cast them into the drain . We have big parcels from Zone II , right at the conrner . When they are blocked they write in the papers that we do not take care of the drains when they have blocked and yet they throw things in them. They are there in my office , kept as exhibits .

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I have not heard one member appreciating the electrification ( electricity ) which we have installed . Not even a single person has expressed thanks . We have increased the street lights . This place is a town . (Noise ) When water was beginning to be scares we increased the reservoirs and machinery so that the supply should be bigger . Look at Zone II . At once it has water . Now, they do not notice this point . As for the people of ......

THE SPEAKER : Order! Now the House will adjourn until next Monday at 10h00 . Let us take note of Monday .

THE HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 11h00 .

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THE FIFTH SESSION OF THE SECOND LEBOWA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY 1977 MONDAY APRIL THE 25TH

The sitting commenced at 10h30 . The Deputy Speaker read a prayer . The hon . Mr. S.S. Mothapo seconded by the hon . Mr. M.W. Kgatla moved that the minutes be adopted as a correct record .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Deputy Speaker , I have a correction to make in respect of item 8 on the minutes . I think it is a typographical error ; it should be 143 and not 134. That is 129 to 143 not 134. Mr. Speaker Sir .

ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE CHIEF MINISTER

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Deputy Speaker and the hon . members , this is a brief announcement just to remind the hon . House that they have before them , I think , their itinerary which will be followed on the 26th of this month as we proceed to Moutse area . The itinerary speaks for itself and I don't need to elaborate . We commence at 6 a.m. Mr. Deputy Speaker . MR . S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr. Speaker , there is something that perturbs me , perhaps not Mothapo alone but the other people also . You have a motion on ( b ) by the hon . member for Seshego . There are motions which were submittted to the Speaker before this motion came up . I want to know from you Mr. Deputy Speaker where are those motions already why are they being shelved ? And if you count your days you will find that those motions already have six days and I am the second thereto .

THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir , perhaps I could offer some explanation here . Motions are submitted to the Speaker through his secretary . These are signed and referred to me as the leader of the House and I in turn submit the motions to the Chief Minister who then discusses them with his Cabinet . It is possible for the Cabinet to approve of a motion immediately and sometimes I am asked by the Cabinet to discuss the motion with the mover along certain lines . And in all cases when such discussions are to be held it is a matter of calling the attention of the mover to discuss with him the existing problems . I have already done this with a couple of motions and I am very grateful to the respective mover because they realise the difficulties as seen by the Cabinet .

MR . M.W. KGATLA : Mr. Deputy Speaker I would like to crave for your indulgence in as far as motions are concerned . I think that this is our right as members of parliament that

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this thing must be explained thoroughly so that I happen to know and the next member of parliament has to know about it . I was so worried that I went down to Cape Town to look for this book . Whether you are a member of the opposition you have the right to the House of parliament . Now its the duty of the Chair , its the duty of the House and the leader of the House to be impartial . Last year Reverend S.S. Mothapo submitted two motions and I seconded the motions and they never appeared on the Order Paper . The Reverend here is to be taken to be a member of the Opposition . And the fact that I have signed the motions I was labelled to be the member of the Opposition . And we have been elected by the people whether we are in the Opposition or not to come into this House . And I want to know right now if it is possible to have a remedy to this thing . I read the rules of procedure in Cape Town . They don't work similar to ours when it comes to motions , because if I have to move a motion and I say I don't have confidence in the Chief Minister or I don't have confidence in the leader of the House , that motion will never be taken up . I said that as an example . And here is a critical thing . We have given a motion to the effect that when people don't come in time on Mondays they must never be taxed . He has drafted it , the Reverend here . I signed that as a seconder . The motion is not there , After two days the hon . Mr. Kwakwa gave a notice of a motion and the motion is appearing on the Order Paper . And under the impression I went to talk to the Chief Minister or talk to the leader of the House about the motion . A motion is a motion , it will be rejected by this House and it should just be like that .

Last year I drafted a motion to the effect that our Education is in jeopardy . Reverend S.S. Mothapo signed the motion as a seconder . I also took the motion to the Chief Minister's office to go and debate it with the Chief Minister before the leader of the House can allow that motion to come here . This is what I said to the Chief Minister . Chief Minister , I am very much regretful , I am not interested in talking to you about this motion . I will talk in the House if the motion happens to come over . Later on I learned from the leader of the House that my motion was not accepted . I got my way out to bring that motion in this House . It is only when such people like Mapudi Jackson Phasha are helping me for the motion to be successful . And if it succeeds we shall get R500 grants from 134 , for the teachers .

Now there is a complaint that whenever some hon . members , bring the motions forth , being regarded as members of the Opposition their motions are not accepted . Their motions are not successful though they are to help our nation of Lebowa . We have been elected by the people to come and represent them here. And through you Mr. Deputy Speaker it is the job of the leader of the House or the business committee to bring whatever we are asking to come into this House .

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I want to end by saying that our motion of depriving dikgoŝi of their monies should go . We want it so as to debit it here . Mr. The leader of the House .

THE MINISTER OF INTERIOR : Mr. Deputy Speaker , Sir , I was saying let us not get into discussions by quarelling . Our regulations are explicit or this procedure that motions should be reviewed by the Cabinet and I suppose that is what is going to happen as long as the rules stand . In my earlier explanation I did not say that the said motion will not come to the House . All I said was that I was going to request the mover to discuss the finer point of the motion with me . My past experience has taught me that after such discussions usually the mover realise the difficult points that were studied and raised by the motion . Perhaps it is the wish of the House that when I discuss the finer points with the mover I should also request , of course with the permission of the mover , that the seconder be present ; then we discuss the points the three of us .

And I want to assure the hon . House Mr. Deputy Speaker that really these motions are treated as motions . There is no way of trying to favour certain persons above others . Those whom I have talked to about their motions understand and can bear me a witness that I am saying the truth because when I tried to indicate to them they said no , we understand , this is very much it is obvious . We then left those motions . So to say the hon . House , I wanted to say that if there is difficulty , we shall have to discuss this accordingly . I mean those who are having those motions . But from now on Mr. Deputy Speaker I think I'll have to involve the seconder of the motion so that he should be enlightened . Thank you .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Deputy Speaker , I have brief remarks to make in circumstances . And I should like to remove the danger of the situation . This hon . House has Rules of Procedure and we are carrying out the duties according to them . The rules provided that these motions should go through a certain process in the Cabinet . And we have to follow that procedure . And the rules provide that the Cabinet has full responsibility for the motions . They must be satisfied that the motion is in that form even the language of the motion is in that form that it will be in accordance with the decorum and the statements of this parliament . And as the leader of the House has indicated I want to emphasize that we have to follow that procedure .

There is yet another point where exaggerations are easily noticeable . It is when a person says , when he is asked in terms of the Rules of Procedure to consult with the leader ui the House or with Prime Minister , ne is not interested . It is not his interest that is material , it is the interest of the public of Lebowa . He mustn't refer to his interest . It is irrelevant . And I want to reveal to the hon . House that it is not your interest .

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It is the interest of the people of Lebowa that we are going to provide for . Time is very viable . I don't think the Chief Minister or the Cabinet or the hon . House here waste time for personal interests . My interpretation of the forces of public service is not so narrow as it is perhaps understood . But I think I am correct , when a man says " I am not interested , " I rule him out as being a man in the wrong company . But it is the interest of the people of Lebowa over which I am a guardian and we will carry out duties according to our Rules of Procedure . I agree altogather with the views that we must exercise out duties and functions impartially . And that's why we have Rules of Procedure so that we cannot be consistent . We must be impartial in the exercise of parliament duties . And I want to emphasize and impress upon the hon . members that the spirit of our Rules of Procedure let us to carry out our functions . We will do our best and quickly too , not personal interests . Mr. Deputy Speaker .

MR . S.P. KWAKWA : Mr. Speaker , I move that the contracts for removal of refuse in the townships be for the period of three years at a time .

MR . S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr. Speaker , I second the motion .

MR . S.P. KWAKWA : Mr. Speaker , my reason for moving this motion is that at present people are given contracts for a year . And these people become involved in heavy expenses in purchasing vehicles that they use for the removal of refuse and before they have liquidated their commitments , the time expires . This then leaves a man in debt and which he cannot defeat because he has nothing to resort to . I feel that three years is quite reasonable for a man at least to meet some of the capital expenses he invested in this contract . Mr. Speaker , Sir .

MR . S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr. Speaker , in every sphere of life one learns through mistakes . I'll take one little example : When a child learns to stand up he stumbles , he falls and finally learns to walk straight . In business Mr. Speaker ; you will always find that there are some other things that you cannot manage from the very onset . The hon . member has pointed out the very fact that this man buys a lot of things and during that year he loses almost everything . But I want to point out that even with the very people that you are going to use you might as well lose even more . But if one is given a period of three years , one can be able to sort of sack the staff which is not doing the work very well and get proper maintenance of these vehicles with the experience that develops within the years . I therefore feel , Mr. Deputy Speaker , it is fair to give these people three years . Thank you Mr. Speaker .

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MR . M.W. KGATLA : Thank you , Mr. Deputy Speaker . I want to disclose to this House that when I was down at Mahwelereng some years back a certain Mr. Ledwaba had the contract to remove all the refuse in Mahwelereng Township . And some time not so very long a certain Dr. Makunyane had a contract to remove the refuse here in Seshego . And the conditions for the contract when you have to undertake it are these that you must have covered the thing that is to remove the refuse . I want you to make an imagination of how big Seshego is , and you'll find we need a man who must have about one , two , three , four , five , six , ten tractors to can remove the refuse . The Secretary of the House will remember this . This is what I did last week . We have been here for three ■ r five weeks and nobody is removing the refuse where the Chief are staying right now . And those houses are not cleaned by them . And it is our duty to see to it that we protect the people who are helping us in order that we live . I am afraid I have never consulted the hon . Mr. Kwakwa because this is what I wanted to make as an amendment of the motion . The life of the Legislative Assembly should be the life of a man who is removing refuse . In other words for five years he must have that contract . The doctor was telling me this right now. These towns like Johannesburg , Pietersburg , Pretoria etc. have their municipalities which are responsible for the removal of refuse . But in small towns like ours here , we have to protect that man , He must never go and die , Mr. Ledwaba bought five tractors . I have seen that as I was there at Potgietersrus . And a certain Superintendent said " hy is nie goed vir my nie . Ek gaan hom nie meer die kontrak gee nie . " And thepoor man had to go just out like that with those tractors unpaid for . And this is what nearly happened to Dr. Makunyane . We are here to help our people . Things go in this way and we see them and leave them in that way . I don't think there is any member who can stand up in this House and say this people should not be given a three year contract . And if he can say we should not give them a three year contract this is what I am going to say to him : You need your head to be examined . I thus , without wasting this House's time , move and second myself at the same time that this motion must be carried as it is . Mr. Speaker , Sir . MR . I.K. MALEBANA : Mr. Deputy Speaker , I stand to support the hon . members who have already spoken . It is true we are here to make our people live . Our responsibility is to inform our people that a person should undertake a tender if it is available even though he does not have adequate funds . He could still secure a financial assistance from those who have something . I just wish that this contract was for five years . What is done by Whites after getting a contract is that they go to a certain company which gives them cars . There is no contract that can be impossible to carry out if our government is willing to make us survive . It must just consider your efforts and give it to you and you'll pay them while busy operating . It is regrettable that I couldn't meet thehon . Kwakwa so that this contract should be for a period of 5 years

because the contractor has to pay income tax every year , and this falls under the government's revenues . This helps your children . That's why I say let this House pass this Bill and after next year declare that this period should be five years so that it should help the children of Lebowa . MR . S.M. LANGA : I am thankful for the motions presented here . I complain of the years given because they are not enough , and because if you consider this , there is nothing you gain from that . The hon . member , Mr. Kgatla , has said the truth . The trucks and tractors of Mr. Ledwaba got fagged out due to this thing of ending a contract unceremoniously , On that score it is Mr. Ledwaba who has lost . If it cannot be extended up to five years even if you are working on a large area , it cannot make one gain out of it . If it was five or seven years , it would be better . You will be able to pay and gain . What is expected from that man is that he should be able to get profits . The idea is that this man should not spend and lose . If the mover did agree he would have made it five years because he would gain a little bit even if it could be not so much . If you don't pay attention to this matter and it becomes three years , there is still going to be the same complaint . It is the duty of this House to care for those who are complaining and those who are not so that they must have courage the following year . I was just saying if the owner of the motion do agree he would change and say five years . MR . M.J. PHASHA : Mr. Deputy Speaker , the motion has been put forward for discussion . And it is my feeling that since the previous speakers have confirmed this motion no further discussions should be continued . The House should just accept it as it stands since there is no one who speaks in disfavour of the motion . The former speaker on this motion brought up a point that he had intention of amending it had he consulted with the mover . Unfortunately he has not consulted with the mover . As such the mover too had no feelings of amendment because he could have already done so . Thank you Mr. Deputy Speaker .

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Hon . members , whereas the whole House is in favour of this motion there is a little technical point about it . In order to give this motion some effect we shall have to ask the mover also to make amendment that the Tender Board Act be amended .

MR . S.P. KWAKWA : I am not very much orientated to the proceedings of this House . I don't know whether I am allowed to make an amendment right now . If that is in order I move that the Tender Board Act be accordingly amended . And I wish to react to the suggestion of five years . I wish us to bear in mind that the contractor may fail . He may do very badly that we would like to get ric of him . If it is for duration of a longer time then you are settled with a difficult situation .

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And I don't think the Tender Board would have any objection if a contractor did very well and renews his application so that a man who has acquitted to himself very well he may get an extension and get six years of making it five years because he may be a flop and do a very bad work and we will have to be settled with him for that time . Thank you .

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Then hon . member you are asked to write down that amendment and hand it over to be read together with your motion . In short in the same motion you just have to say the Tender Board Act be amended accordingly . At this stage hon . members I hope it is a concise opinion of this House that the motion is accepted . Then that brings us to item 12. Item 12 brings us back to the Committee Stage .

THE HOUSE GOES INTO COMMITTEE STAGE

THE CHAIRMAN : The hon . members the House is now in committee . When the House adjourned on Thursday we were still putting questions to the Minister of works . And on my list here I still have a few hon . members who want to speak .

MR . M.W. KGATLA : Mr. Chairman , it was not my intention to speak . I was craving for indulgence that we have gone through the work vote despite the fact that there is still a few of our members who want to talk . I wish to move right now that we get to our reading of the Minister's vote , vote by vote . Surely we have had the answers from the Minister , they are only directives : rain has heavily fallen at my place come and build a bridge etc. So those members who want to speak right now will be talking along those line . Can't we now examine exactly what he is going to do with our money here now .

MR . M.J. PHASHA : Mr. Chairman , I stand here to oppose the motion of the hon . Mr..Kgatla in the sense that I haven't spoken personally . And I have some facts which were not raised by the hon . House and which I would like to put forward . If you allow me , Mr. Chairman , I will then move it and the motion can pass .

Mr. Chairman on the vote of the Minister of Works I want to ask this question . Mr. Chairman in the past , before the taking over of works in the districts , we used to have this procedure : Whenever a councillor of any tribal authority sees that there is something going on with the road in this areas he used to take up the matter with the Commissioner- General or the Magistrate . He used to report that to the Magistrate who had the power of instructing the Department of Works to go and repair the road which is not in order .

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Now recently Mr. Chairman we have realised that there is difficulty in that procedure as it is amended . The procedure presently is that if I see the road in a bad condition , let us say the road to Sekhukhune Training College , to an extent that the bakery cannot supply the students with bread , I have to takeup the matter with the Magistrate . I once did so and in his reply the Magistrate said to me he has no powers of instructing the Department of Works . I had to write an application through him direct to the Department of Works at head office . Now , Mr. Chairman , I feel that this new set - up that I should make an application to the Department of Works and wait for their reply to empower the Magistrate to instruct the man of the Department of Works in that locality to repair the road takes a long time because the children will be suffering in the meantime . Mr. Chairman , I am asking the Department of Works as to whether it cannot allow the Magistrate to have powers of controlling the local head of the department so as to give him instructions . Whenever the urgent cases of this nature arises . Mr. Chairman my second point is an information to the Minister . On Friday when I immediately arrived at home on this road from Jane Furse to Apel , i.e. Mphanama road I realised that there is a sharp corner as you get to the new bridge of Lepellane . On that new bridge if a man comes straight from Mphanama he may not be aware that this road turns . As a result on Friday afternoon a van was carrying three passengers , coming straight from there when it got to the corner . On the bridge it couldn't make it and as a result it capsized and one of my fellow people died there . Now my appeal to the Minister of Works is that couldn't it be possible as soon as possible to put the road signs in every road where there are such dangerous Curves? Mr. Chairman , another point is that I was requested by the Atok Mine to ask the Department of Works to take care of the road ; it is a short road from the Atok Mines to the main road to Lydenburg . This road is presently at a very dangerous position . And in addition to that the request is that road signs of speed limit should be put there because along the road are many people of the mines and the school children and any driver may overrun them . Another point Mr. Chairman through you to the Minister of Works is that I learned from the best speech of the Minister of Works that piping has partly being laid from Lebowakgomo to the Olifants River . And it is my believe that these pipes are going to absorb water out of this dam which is set to be build there . Now through you Mr. Chairman I wish to know when will these awaited dams be started ? Thank you Mr. Chairman .

KGOĜI T. MASHEGOANE : The day before yesterday , Mr. Chairman the hon . Mr. ngatla indicated that there is only one interpreter . Now from that the Chairman has promised us that another interpreter will be there . I observed that since that day there has been only that same interpreter everyday . Does it mean that there is no other interpreter other than Mr. Lekalakala ? Some people don't understand English and other N. Sotho . You would become a ruffian alone . Some people here can't speak English and N. Sotho . Mr. Chairman help us with another interpreter .

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THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . members , the work of an interpreter is not an easy one . And it is not everybody that can do it . This morning we sent the very same interpreter to find out whether the other interpreter is not up and he still found him very ill . We are , as we are sitting here , battling to get another interpreter in our hands . But I must tell you it is very difficult to procure some of our men to become interpreters , particularly in the Assembly . But we are hoping that in the late afternoon we will get the second interpreter .

KGOĜI T. MASHEGOANE : Mr. Chairman , if a person is not there he should be paid even if he is absent . have MR . M.W. KGATLA : I requested the Minister to tell us these . And this is very serious , particularly a Chief Whip . You will realise that last year , he has put aside R85 400 for subsistence and transport , whatever that means . We have a complaint here , Mr. Chairman . Perhaps the Minister could help us . If you look at that figure from R85 000 you'll realise that now he gets up to R103 000. Our complaint is that the seconded - officials waste our funds on subsistence and transport . And somebody might stand up and say that I am attacking those people who don't have the opportunity of replying me . I have an information that most of them are staying at their houses , but on Friday they come here to come and collect money and go under the impression that they have been camping out etc. And here on Fridays we find petrols are being filled , a man saying I am going to work on Saturday and Sunday . And on Monday all the cars are empty . You check the mileage a man has never gone anywhere . But the petrol is off . Money is off . I now need a thorough care on those people who are using these cars . We must be sure that they are using them correctly and on their return the mileages must be checked to prove that the man was on duty .

The Minister has stated it clearly that next year we shall ask the Minister of the Department of Justice what he did with those cars? How did they break down ? Where is he getting` to , for what purpose ? That's how we are suffering Mr. Chairman . If a man is being given a government's car , a Valiant , you'll find his family owning a Valiant . I have been running a car for the last five years . But the cars of Ministers don't last for five years for they take parts out of them to repair theirs . You buy parts and new cars . And this is a fact . I can prove it . That's why I queried it under subsistence and transport . And at the same time I want you to go and check this .

KGOŝI T.J. MOTHAPO : Mr. Chairman , on the issue of subsistence and transport I want to know if ever our people

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are getting them . If they get these , why there is a complaint from our people that the whites refuse to sign their forms ? This money belongs to whom if it is not enjoyed by Lebowa people? Thank you .

MR . M.W. KGATLA : Mr. Chairman , on item E ( 8 ) I see the Minister has budgeted R10 000 for the cleaning of offices . He has now R12 100. What type of offices are they which you say cleaning of offices which consume such money ? People who clean these so - called offices what else do they do after cleaning them ? In 1975 this money was more than this . May they please explain to us what type of cleaning is that .

THE CHAIRMAN : F ( 11 ) ( b) Maintenance works I just want to find that out from the Minister right now ; despite the fact that he has given out vehicles to each department . They damage these cars . And after damaging them from the evidence that I have , there is a man who is going to repair them . I am just wondering , Mr. Chairman , as to whether the moneys that we allocate to the Department of Works are covering for the carelessness of other departments .

The Minister said he is going to prove us something next year . And I want to add this before you prove to us the Minister . Those people who have used their cars very recklessly , charge them . So that we must be able to see those who damage cars and how they paid these damages . We have given you little funds for repairs but still Education and Justice destroy cars and expect you to repair them . The Minister of Education was complaining and if you can remember , last year we had R580 000 and this time we have R754 600 just for repairs . Just charge them for repairs and they won't damage cars anymore . Here are funds and we throw them into the water ; we don't know where cars are getting to Mr. Minister Sir , it is just a matter of giving attention .

KGOĜI T.J. MOTHAPO : Mr. Chairman , on ( G ) there is R7 544 700 of which I was saying let us take it according to Rule 159 , 142 and 143. We should take R1 million and transfer it to Education vote . I accordingly move so .

KGOĜI A.S. MOLEPO : I second this motion so that our education should improve .

KGOŝI T.J. MOTHAPO : Mг . Chairman , I wanted to give an explanation on this matter .

MR . M.W. KGATLA : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman . Mr. Chairman the hon . Kgoŝi T.J. Mothapo has moved this motion , and with due respect he has handed over the motion to the House . Mr. Chairman , this is the article of this House. You now and uve the article of this House and you leave the House to discuss this motion .

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And Kgoŝi Mothapo will be given time according to our Rules of Procedure to reply after we shall have debated this motion . My order is that if you hand this article to the House , let the House discuss the motion then Kgoŝi Mothapo will have that . He has been given time as the mover to say all what he wanted to say , but he can only reply what he is going to say right пош . THE CHAIRMAN : Rule 167 ( i ) says : " Any rule or sessional order or orders of the Legislative Assembly may be superseded upon motion made after notice , such motion being carried by a majority of votes . Provided that in cases of urgent necessity of which the Speaker shall be the judge , any such rule or order may with the consent of the Assembly be suspended upon motion made without notice " .

KGOĜI E.M. MOGASHOA : Mr. Chairman , I oppose that motion .

THE CHAIRMAN : Order hon . member , with due respect . I would like to bring back to you that when an hon . member is speaking please give him a hearing . If you don't want to listen to him march out , that is done in Cape Town . Hon . member continue . KGOĜI E.M. MOGASHOA : Mr. Chairman , I oppose this motion because this vote has to do with some other major jobs . If we reduce it , what is going to happen to these major jobs? What means are going to be used for them being carried out?

MR . M.W. KGATLA : I want to support Kgoŝi E. Mogashoa with these words . Here it is written major works . In English they say ignorance is bliss . Page to page 18 of the estimates where it says ministerial housing and administrative complex R80 million . Now if they say major works which you don't understand , they refer to the ones of these type . There are more major works that must be done in Lebowa territory . You can't take the money out of major works and transfer it where it is unnecessary . Like when we say we work on the Lepelle road which connects that one to Driekop . That is a major work . You can't have that one out . And that must be done . And with this money , will it be sufficient ? Right now we have been told that we are going to make this big road from Seshego right up to Kgoŝi B.K. Matlala . That is major work . You don't ever pay taxes , but you come and tell us to go and leave major works . You told this House that you want houses . When we have now budgeted here for major works like that you say we must never do that . Nobody is refusing that education must take my example in order to make what you want to do in education , Chief Molepo .

When we have only 134 grants we fought with the department and they created 500 .

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They are mad , they must go home . THE CHAIRMAN : Order hon . members , in the first place , the Chair , has not accepted the motion . Secondly the word mad is unparliamentary .

MR . M.W. KGATLA : I never said that . It is Kgoŝi Molepo who says I am mad . Tell him to withdraw it .

KGOŝI A.S. MOLEPO : I withdraw , Mr. Chairman .

THE MINISTER OF WORKS : Mr. Chairman , this hon . House has appreciated my Policy Speech and now they want to take some money from me so that they can blame me in the future .

MR . P.L. KEKANA : Mr. Chairman , on ( g ) it is written roads and bridges three times ( a ) ( b ) and ( c ) . This surprises me .

MR . M.W. KGATLA : Mr. Chairman this item says construction and maintenance . In other words you are maintaining the roads and the bridges that you have . On top they refer to new bridges which we are still going to construct . There is no confusion in this thing here . Some of them he has and it is repairs of roads . Some are to be started .

KGOĜI A.S. MOLEPO : Mr. Chairman , I wish to know if the East Rand Administration Board and the other company which was building houses at Lebowakgomo are still continuing with their work there?

MR . P.L. KEKANA : Mr. Chairman , I want to know if the funds for tars for Lebowakgomo come from us or the East Rand Administration Board? If they come from the East Rand Administration Board , then I request that ours be transferred to Education .

MR . M.W. KGATLA : Mr. Chairman , if it is a motion , a notice should be given and it must come through the correct channels , otherwise reject that . The vote of the Department of Works was passed .

THE CHAIRMAN : On that note this House shall adjourn until 2.15

THE HOUSE ADJOURNED FOR LUNCH AT 12h45 AND RESUMED THE PROCEEDINGS AT 14h30

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THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . House , when this House adjourned we had just finished the Minister of Works ' Vote . We shall now proceed to the next item . But before I call upon the Minister of Education , I have this to say . The interpreters are complaining that there are hon . members sitting just next to where they are . They make such noise that the interpreter is unable to catch what the hon . member is saying at the extreme end . We thus call upon the Minister of Education to deliver his speech .

MR . M.W. KGATLA : On a point of order , Mr. Chairman . According to our Rules of Procedure you are supposed to be down when he has to deliver his Policy Speech .

THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . members , the House is now in committee . I shall now call upon the Minister of Education to deliver his Budget and Policy Speech .

POLICY SPEECH OF THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION

Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I have the unenviable task of presenting a vote that is insufficient to adequately develop the human potential necessary for the progress of Lebowa as an integral part of South Africa . The total expected expenditure of R16 889 000 represents 24,4% of the overall budget . This is 10,7% less that the vote that has enjoyed priority before 1976/77 , when the vote for Education was reduced to 24,8% of the whole budget . This state of affairs , where Education is relegated to a poor second position in the budget , is decidedly not in the best interest of Lebowa and South Africa . Education vote , expressed as percentage of the whole budget , was as follows during the years before the fateful 1976/77 financial year , when it SLUMPED to 24,8%.

YEAR 1970/71 1971/72 1972/73 1973/74 1974/75 1975/76

EDUCATION VOTE

R

3 4 5 7 9 12

968 723 237 880 143 890

Average % 1970/71 to 1975/76

000 000 800 000 000 000

% OF TOTAL BUDGET

35,76% 36,78% 35,49% 37,31 % 35,12% 34,9%

35,85%

Thus , during the first six years of its existence , the Lebowa Government , like all other Governments , gave Education ( whose primary function is to develop and to cultivate the human potential for the good of the whole state) top priority at the average of 35,85%.

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This is normal in every country except where defence is given preference for various reasons . This is because , Mr. Chairman and hon . members , without the proper type of Education , development may be reduced to a snail's pace . The inexplicable drop to 24,8% - and to 24,4% - has retarded and harmed what was otherwise proving to be the normal educational development which promised to maintain a steady flow of manpower into the country .

It is an accepted principle in the drawing up of Education budgets that salaries should make up about 80% of the vote to allow about 20% for physical development and maintenance . If slaries constitute a percentage much higher than 80% , progress in an underdeveloped country may stagnate . Most countries , including the Department of Bantu Education , follow the accepted and desirable principle as it ensures improvement . In Lebowa this is unfortunately not the position , as the following table clearly reveals . Financial Year

1971/72 1973/74 1974/75 1975/76 1976/77 1977/78

Education Vote

5 7 9 12 15 16

244 886 149 120 121 889

100 500 500 100 200 000

Amount voted for salaries only 4 7 8 11 13 15

678 327 538 052 920 646

800 400 000 000 000 300

% of Total Vote 89,2% 92,9% 93,3% 91,2% 92,1% 92,6%

If salaries alone make up as much as 92,3% of the vote , as in 1976/77 , very little money remains for maintenance and development . That is why many communities that built schools did not get the R for R Subsidy , and why many schools , even Secondary Schools , can not be supplied with sufficient desks , and why we in Lebowa are unable to supply our children with sufficient books in preparation for compulsory education . It should be noted that the amount voted for salaries in 1976/77 was insufficient for this purpose as 1 252 teachers in primary schools were paid by various school committees . If these teachers were paid by the state , an additional R 1 893 024 would have been required , bringing the total salaries to R14 124 124 , which is more than the Education vote for that year . As an estimated 60% of the 440 000 pupils in 1976 were without desks , an amount of R2 904 000 was required to buy 132 000 desks , at R22 each . Instead , only R 110 000 was set aside for school furniture in 1976 , as well as in the present vote . This amount is sufficient for at most one quarter of the backlog , and the position is becoming worse by the year , especially in the fast - growing secondary schools .

This year , an amount of R119 000 is again set aside for the R for R subsidy on classroomsa At R500 per classroom , this amount is

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sufficient to subsidize 238 classrooms only . In 1976 there was a shortage of at least 1 005 classrooms in primary schools only .

In all , an amount of R502 500 was required to meet the need . As you know , many communities could not be helped last year and many more will not receive the R for R subsidy this year .

As the School population has been growing at the rate of about 30 000 pupils each year , a minimum of 526 classrooms is required to cope with this growth . The total subsidy required would be R263 000 - or more than double what is provided this year .

There is no improvement in the amount set aside for the supply of text books . The R128 000 merely scratches the surface , and , unlike in other regions , the day is still far when sufficient free books will be supplied to schools. There will be no supply of teaching aids , garden tools , bibles audiovisual aids , handwork materials and reading books this year . Secondary schools will receive insufficient science equipment for R5 600 and library books valued at R16 000 plus R2 700 for Departmental schools . This increase in the maintenance of hostels is caused by the establishment of three new Departmental schools , namely C.S. Barlow , Modjadji and Dr. C.N. Phatudi Schools . The amount set aside for bursaries has increased to R65 240 , which is mainly used for teacher training .

Despite the shortage of funds , encouraging progress in being made , thanks to the education - hungry communities and to progress - loving benefactors who assist in putting up several new schools . During last year , 30 primary schools were registered , to bring primary education within easy reach of most beginners . The primary school population rose to 388 535 in 1976. This year it is expected to top 410 000. There were 6 225 primary school teachers , of whom 1 252 were paid by various school committees . My Department is concerned about the fact that the teacherpupils ratio is very high at 1 : 63,4 . If we do not take the privately paid teachers into account , the teacher - pupil ratio would be a staggering 7:78 , 1 . To bring the teacher - pupil ratio in line with the position in other regions or homelands at 1:57 , Lebowa should have had sibsidized 6 816 teachers in 1976 in primary schools only instead of 4 973. This means that in 1976 we were actually short of 1 843 subisdies or of a minimum of R2 786 615 in salaries . The teachers may be found but there is no money .

We are further concerned about the fact that over 600 schools ' still run double session for SS A and SS B.

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To reduce this problem and to be in line with other regions , more classrooms and more teachers are needed . Money alone can solve our problem . The problem of unqualified teachers in subsidized posts is nearing solution . In 1976 , only 535 unqualified teachers were placed in subsidized posts . As more than 1 200 trainees qualified as teachers , it is expected that this year very few unqualified teachers will be subsidized . Insufficient funds forced us to create only 258 primary school posts this year . Nearly all will be filled by qualified teachers except perhaps in the Bohlabela , Sekhukhune , Thabina and Ramokgopa circuits where teachers from other areas are loath to take employment . In fact , many of the qualified teachers are not employed for lack of subsidies ; some are employed in privately paid posts and others are lost to industry .

A further concern to my Department is the high rate of drop - outs , especially in SS B and Std . III . Once again Mr. Chairman and hon . members , I wish to appeal to all concerned , and to the leaders in particular , to encourage pupils to remain in school until they complete primary education at least . This loss applies to both boys and girls , our future potential leaders . Once again growth in secondary education was satisfactory in so far as more schooling facilities were provided for those pupils who now enter secondary schools at an early age after Std . S.

Several new Junior Secondary Schools started functioning in 1976 , bringing the total number of Secondary Schools in March 1976 to 164. Today there are about 186 secondary schools . Of these , 33 had matriculation classes in 1976 ; this number should increase to over 40 this year as it is the aim of my Department to increase the number of matriculation in Lebowa , as matriculation is the key to most professions and advanced technical colleges . Only six of the Senior Secondary Schools are Departmental schools . It is my hope that the education vote will be appropriately improved to enable my Department to take over all Senior Secondary schools at state schools to improve the quality and quantity of production at Matric level . Insufficient funds do not permit my Department to assist the four agency schools which could improve production in matriculation . These schools do very well indeed . The Secondary School population has risen to an imposing 49 067 pupils , of whom 1 165 are in Form V and 27 212 in Form I this year . It is hoped that 25% of the Form I pupils will do matric . The secondary school population will continue to grow fast .

Of the

1 012 teachers in secondary schools , only 145 are gra-

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duates . The majority of these teachers have a professional qualification plus matriculation . It is in the interest of Lebowa that these shortcomings in the teachers ' qualifications be given serious thought by both the Department and the teachers themselves . The teacher- pupil ratio in our secondary schools is 1:48 . To reduce this ratio to the normal 1:42 , another 156 teachers should have been subsidized in 1976. The quality of work in our schools would improve if the ratio were reduced . Many new secondary schools are struggling with insufficient grants as only 213 new grants could be created this year .

Despite the relatively high ratio , the 82,3% pass in Matriculation in 1976 was good . It is possible the results could have been better had the general unrest in many schools in the middle of last year not disturbed the smooth working of some schools . This year Setotolwane has again started admitting pupils into the matriculation course to improve the production of science students . Good progress was again made in teacher - production . T here were 1 334 P.T.C. I students , while 1 285 wrote P.T.C. II in 1976. 1 138 passed P.T.C. II , and another 133 are allowed to write supplementary examinations this year . Only 14 candidates failed . In all 1 271 students qualified as teachers . Owing to shortage of funds , only 158 of these teachers will be placed in newly - created posts , while a further 353 will replace unqualified teachers . Thus , about 660 newly qualified teachers are likely to go without posts . Some of these , however , choose to do matriculation . Those who go into industry may be lost to the profession . Both Dr. C.N. Phatudi and Modjadji Teacher Training Colleges started functioning this year . Dr. C.N. Phatudi Teacher Training College , which will accommodate about 800 trainees` when complete . When funds will allow a further two or three teacher-training colleges will be established as was resolved by parliament last year . That decision still awaits funds . Once these two training colleges are completed , about 2 000 teachers will qualify each year . It is the improvement of training facilities for secondary school teachers that will now receive attention . In addition to the two Trade Schools that had 513 trainees in 1976 , the C.S. Barlow Trade School , a donation from the Barlow Rand Group , enrolled about 100 trainees in Carpentry , Joinery and Cabinet Making ; Concreting , Plastering and Bricklaying ; plumbing , drainlaying and sheetmetalwork ; welding and Metalwork and painting and glazing , the last named being a new trade also introduced at Tseke Mabooe . An additional Trade School is being investigated for Mapulaneng area . The 600 odd tradesmen now being trained are not sufficient to provide the required manpower in the trades . The needs for more trade schools to develop proficient manpower is still great . It should be admitted that many qualified tradesmen are absorbed by industry in white areas .

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It is hoped that the Sir Val Duncan Trade School at Phalaborwa will start functioning in 1978. It is very near completion . In an effort to increase the number of black instructors , and to prepare for a possible Industrial Training Centre for school pupils , five teachers were sent for Industrial training in Soweto in 1976. This year these teachers are at Tseke Mabooe Trade School to receive further guidance and experience in trade - training . Of the 30 instructors at Tseke Mabooe and Maake Trade Schools in 1976 , only 9 are Lebowa Citizens . At Maake Trade School both concreting and carpentry are fully manned by Lebowa citizens . No Trade at Tseke Mabooe is manned completely by Lebowa citizens . - except painting and glazing which is under one of our teacher- trainees . It is the intention of my Department to give increased responsibility to Lebowa citizens at the other Trade Schools whenever opportunity arises . Owing to lack of sufficient funds , my Department has not been able to establish a Technical High School . It is hoped that the East Rand Administration Board will start to build one at Lebowakgomo during 1977 . There is hardly any vocational training for girls except for a two - year dressmaking course at Mokopane and Kgarahara . There were 34 trainees in 1976 . My Department is at present going into the question of registering Commercial Schools which may assist girls to become more efficient secretaries or clerks . At least three commercial schools are at present being run by private individuals . The long - awaited Agricultural High School has not yet been established as funds are insufficient . This is unfortunate as Lebowa's agricultural potential is high . During 1976 the white staff at Boaparankwe were replaced by Lebowa citizens . My Department owes a debt of gratitude to those Inspectors who willingly manned the school at a time when the pupils were preparing for their final examinations - and the result of the school were good . - 100% pass . It has not yet been possible to increase the enrolment of this school as hostel accommodation is limited . Efforts being made to improve adult education are restricted by shortage of funds . Training Courses for intending teachers were held at the Department's expense , but there is no money to pay the teachers . Here again it is hoped that provision will be made for a more meaningful approach to adult education in future . It was not possible to start the fourteenth inspection circuit as envisaged . The load of work on the Inspectors , especially in the Bohlabela , Dennilton and Ramokgopa Circuits is heavy and travelling expenses are high as circuits stretch over a wide area . My Department is concerned that the general standard of work may suffer us Inspectors are too few to

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cover Lebowa adequately . A fourteenth circuit is an absolute necessity now . Some improvement was effected at circuit offices by the appointment of a third clerk at each office mainly for the purpose of helping to control funds at schools. The housing of Inspectors and clerks at circuit offices poses a major problem as government houses are not available . Here again it is hoped that dunds will be available to provide the houses . We hope part of the Government loan granted will be used for that purpose . The main improvement at Head Office was the introduction of the personnel section during the year . The appointment of clerks at schools , circuit offices and Head Office now goes smoothly . The appointment of an Assistant Secretary at the beginning of 1977 will , it is hoped , improve the training of manpower for more responsible positions . It is my intention to ask for the upgrading of some of the administrative staff to work in close contact with the secretariat . My Department introduced compulsory school attendance at the beginning of 1977. The success of this step will depend on the assistance and understanding by members of the public , especially the leaders . If this scheme is successful , the number of those who can neither read nor write will decrease and more and more people will be able to develop Lebowa . With the introducation of compulsory school attendance , more pupils will remain at school for a long time . These pupils will need more classrooms , more desks , more books , more teaching aids , more and better qualified teachers , more clerks and more inspectors . The annual increase in the number of pupils is likely to rise from the present 30 000 to 40 000. In terms of annual additional school requirements and money , this will mean at least 700 more classrooms at a subsidy of R500 each ( or R350 000 ) , 20 000 desks at R22 each ( or R1 058 400 ) , at least four additional clerks at R1 200 each ( or R4 800 ) , and four inspectors at a total of R24 000 per annum . Comparison of items in paragraph 17.1 above with provisions in the current vote will reveal that insufficient money is made available for these items . And improvement is essential if the position is not to deteriorate .

Mr. Chairman andhon . members , I have tried to reveal that our education is short of practically everything except school-going children and qualified teachers in primary schools . My Department is struggling to maintain the present facilities , and our teachers and Inspectors are battling under great odds to maintain respectable standards . On three basic items only , viz . teachers , classrooms and school furniture , we were short of at least R6 658 616 in 1976 to normalise the position ( not to idealize it ) .

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This year the shortage will be worse as the number of pupils is likely to rise above 480 000 . Mr. Chairman , I hope you now fully realise how inadequate the amount set aside for the education of the pupils of Lebowa is . The proper development of your human potential , of your future leaders , tradesmen , technicians , nurses , medical men , politicians , diplomats , farmers and all will be seriously slowed down unless , hon . members , you face this issue of OUR priorities with one determined voice . I now place before you , Mr. Chairman and hon . members , the humble estimates of my Department in the fervent hope that you will approve what little has been voted to enable this Department to plod along , and then consider whether time has not come to revert to the average percentage rightly allowed to Education during the first six years of the existence of Lebowa when Education was given 35,85% of the total budget - or R24 736 700 on this year's total budget of R69 135 000 . Before I sit down hon . members , I should again mention the fact that even at conference held at Mokopane the Ruling Party decided that education levy should be levied on every Lebowa citizen for educational purposes , because if you don't educate your youth , then you are killing the nation . The present vote allows only R1,2 million to do all the work . And that will allow me R3.00 on every child per year while other nations spend over R400 per year on each child . And our children last year all over the Republilc told us and everybody that they want the best type of education , the best schools , the best teachers and everything to be best . How can we in Lebowa when we still afford to spend R3.00 on a child per year . I have gone through it during the riots . I don't want to repeat that hon . members . And your children demand they don't ask . They demand and if we don't give them is for this House to decide . And so it will be wise for this House to agree on education levy if we are not to face trouble once again . In other areas all school children receive free education and free books and everything , and in Lebowa here we just pay teachers and do nothing for the children we keep on complaining that we haven't got adequate manpower to man the various posts in our departments when we cannot provide the necessary funds . I hate to tell this hon . House that I see big school children carrying pieces of card boxes to school to use as benches. And how can those young kids just be taught properly if they are not taught properly ? This House must advance funds , so that the quality of our education can be improved . I can provide all these courses if you give us another enough money to do all these services . So I am appealing to this House to advance and to agree on an education levy so that we can get enough money for our children . Every man work for his children ' and we should do the same . I would offer a R100 for educational purposes this year . Perhaps that would enable me to hire additonal teachers .

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I now place before you Mr. Chairman and hon . members , the humble estimates of my department in the fervent hope that you will approve what little has been voted for to enable this department to plod along , and then consider whether time has not come to revert to the average percentage rightly allowed to Education druing the first six years of the existence of Lebowa when Education was given 35,85% of the total budget - or R24 736 700 on this year's total budget of R69 135 000. Thank you Mr. Chairman .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman , the Committee of Supply and hon . members , I am not asking some questions , but merely giving some information which I hope will be useful to this hon . House . We have agreed that we need funds very badly and urgently . It is to be appreciated what contributions we are making towards our own purposes . Let me pass all this valuable information to the hon . House in respect of levy that the various Homelands are imposing upon themselves because of the advancement of their development . Kwa - Zulu Homeland levies R3,00 , Gazankulu R2.50 , Venda levies R3.00 , Bophuthatswana levies R2,50 . I couldn't get the levy imposed by Ciskei and Transkei Republic . Lebowa Levies R2,00 . So you can realise the difference that we are at the bottom of the standing of levy and yet we are crying a lot . I am not putting this matter for the first time before this House . I had occasion to invite attention of this hon . House to this state of affairs . And I was blunt when I put the composition before hon . House and asking whether you agree to attach special tax to increase the financial expense of Lebowa and the House was as silent as a grave . Mr. Chairman of the Committee of Supply , I thought I should present context so that the hon . members can be able to evaluate the situation . Mr. Chairman , Sir . MR . I.K. MALEBANA : Mr. Chairman , I kept listening to the Minister's Policy Speech . He did explain that our problem is money . Now , I want to know if he is making estimates he doesn't make them correctly? Why didn't he make high estimates instead of R20 000 which is reduced . I want to know why it is reduced and where it is going to . I was pleased by his information that some people make attempts to build schools for themselves . Last year we moved that Karabi Secondary School be converted to a training college . I want to know why he has debarred us from doing that ? Thank you .

MR . S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr. Chairman , I want to know from the Minister if he is the one who is making the estimates of his department . How many schools is the Minister going to help with this R20 000 ? What is the Minister's opinion with regard to the people who teach at secondary schools without profession? Such teachers are poison to the children , for they don't know what they offer to them . My suggestion is that you should remove them . Our primaries have a lot of private teachers . Chidren don't receive a proper background . What steps the Minister does your department take so that there should be many hostels?

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Too many children have left school due to lack of accommodations at schools , why didn't you pass a bill on Education tax ? I thank you , Mr. Chairman .

MR . M.W. KGATLA : Mr. Chairman , I might be saying this as a farewell and the people of Lebowa need me . We discovered here last year a very dangerous anomaly . And the Minister of Education touched that , that we are being told every year that to be well reported today . Unless we go and make reshuffle in the Minister's office or Department , we will get nowhere as a nation . And I am unhappy he is not here . I wanted to see him here to understand this . Year in and year out we are talking about edcuation . We know where education lies in his office and money is not allocated correctly . Hon . members , what are we actually doing every year? When he was still the Minister of Education things used not to go this way . Now here are things surprising us . I gave you allocations as from 1975 as to find out what is really cooking in the education side . Last year here we found 134 grants for new teachers . We made a great noise here . You know what happened after that ? They created another 500 new grants . I am now asking you hon . members : where did they get the money from? This matter that we need a new levy is not true . You know where money is wasted . And on my dead body , are we going to levy for education whilst money is being there ? It is wasted here and we see where it is getting wasted . We here are busy fighting the Minister of Education whereas we see where the person takes the money to . And now we say let us transfer money from this department to that department , that is not correct . And this is cowardice . According to me this is cowardice . We are now mandating you the Minister of Education to go and tell the man who gives you money to give you some more . And if he refuses come and tell us here . You tell us in uncertain terms that we must levy we must levy when you don't have money and we know where we can get money . Is it to be afraid of being ousted from the Minister like Ramusi if you can tell the truth ? I told you there is that dangerous money close to R3 million . I said perhaps I am saying this as a farewell . Others you buy cars ; we know them . But your education has nothing . And we are sitting here looking at these things happening . Tomorrow we are gettint to Moutse , the Governm ent has taken the land and has given it to Kgoŝi Mapoch . Ndebeles are busy leaving . That R93 000 you won't see anymore . When getting money we buy cars , houses this and this and education is busy dying in this manner . If they make estimates they make them like this . I have the information . I am now revealing the secret . It is said you the Minister of Works , Minister of Agriculture and the Ministe of Education go and write all the things which you need . Poor people waste time writing what they want . When they come they say here is R2 million see what you can do out of it . All what you are now saying here it's nonsense . The poor Minister when coming in the House trying to give us what he has we fight him , actually knowing where matters start from .

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When I leave here after we will have adjourned they will say " he was speaking things of the Opposition . Anyhow go and tell them to talk like that . Truth is truth . You can call them ppor Ministers left and right . They have nothing . They just take R15 million and go away with it . And R15 million is salaries and he is remaining with nothing . And how can he run education? When we close we say it is Moloko , it is Marishane , it is this one and that one . No !! I had twenty prepared questions . I am not even going to ask you even one of them . What can you tell us because you were not given money . He talks of free and compulsory education . Under the circumstances I have a motion to pass during this sitting to reshuffle the Chief Minister's Department . You will see things will be in order . Thank you , Mr. Chairman .

KGOĜI T.J. MOTHAPO : Mr. Chairman , if I look at what is happening in the Department of Education I feel very much sad due to dissatisfaction . The Minister says we must pay tax in to the education . At my home , Ga- Mothapo , every man is paying out R4,00 for building schools . Every woman pays out R2,00 . If you count this taxation and others of the tribe , Mr. Chairman , this one won't be possible because people have already contributed money to build their schools . Now , if we force our people to pay this tax for education , is this going to come to the Department of Education ? If the Department of Education was apart from the Department of the Chief Minister then I would say we shall discuss this with our people at home . The Department of Chief Minister buys cars for people . They say we help so that the Chief Minister will always be occupying his position . Now I will give you a dose . I firmly support the hon . member for Bolobedu when he says the Department of the Chief Minister should be reshuffled . It should be started with the Secretary` who causes confusion . We can't afford that the education of our children should be controlled by a White man . After making estimates they send them to Pretoria and it cuts them . The Department of the Chief Minister gives them to the Secretaries of the various departments , the Minister being not there . They give the Departments of Education and Agriculture little funds . I know the Chief Minister a a learned somebody and says that he loves education . Why does he allow the Department of Education to be given little money? Where does the Chief Minister lead us to? I am not prepared to ask even a single question concerning the Department of Education . Thank you .

MR . S.H. NKADIMENG : I thank you , Mr. *Chairman . I want to know if the certificates of our children are still endorsed by the Department of Bantu Education at Pretoria , because we have our Department of Education here in Lebowa . I want to know from the Minister why he refused the children from urban areas during the reopening of these schools this year . Further I wish to know from the Minister which are six secondary schools to be taken over by the department ? From which district do they belong ? What is the position in Sekhukhune Training College if it is said it should admit

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children from Sekhukhuneland alone ? It is not the people from Sekhukhuneland who say children should not come that side . On the 9th when you were at Leolo you mentioned that you were going to offer these people a trade school . Why this matter has not been mentioned in your Policy Speech ? Have you changed? Were you making us kids?

MR . P.L. KEKANA : Mr. Chairman , I found that the Policy Speech of Education doesn't please me . There is no addition even a bit . It is similar to that kid who is in Sub A every year . Therefore I move that this be postponed . I have nothing more to ask .

MR . M.J. PHASHA : Mr. Chairman , the hon . member of my constituency , Mr. S.H. Nkadimeng has asked most of my questions and I am left with very few. I learned from the Policy Speech of the Minister of Education that this department has 150 graduates . I want to know how many females are there amongst this number? I ask this question because we may leave the females when improving our qualifications . If they are behind we must devise some means of encouraging them to come up . On top of that Mr. Chairman I feel this number is very small as compared to the population of Lebowa . I wonder whether the Minister has got any measure of improving this number . Mr. Chairman this House once passed an Act on the medium of instruction in scripture . I have been approached by quite outstanding professionals from different constituencies about this . Their argument was that the English medium of instruction in scripture is not carrying the spiritual meaning of scripture to our children . This question worried me greatly Mr. Chairman because I deem it fit that we should consider beyond God . And it is my believe that the Hon . Minister S.S. Mothapo will definitely agree with me whole - heartedly . And he confesses . He is the only Minister in this House who can guide us in as far as that is concerned . Mr. Chairman it is the only case I am putting , my appeal from the professionals , that this House give consideration to this fact .

MR..M.W . KGATLA : Point of order , Mr. Chairman . If he has anyting to tell us about the medium of instruction , that is not what we are here for . He must bring up a motion and we shall go into it . Now we are concentrating on the money that has been allocated to education .

MR . T.P. MAKOLA : Mr. Chairman , the hon . member , T.P. Kekana , of Mokerong has put a motion here . This motion has never been seconded . Will you give me an opportunity , Mr. Chairman to second this motion ? If you could give me the opportunity I would do so .

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KGOĜI B.M. MALATJI : Mr. Chairman I want to give an advice here . If you are talking of suspending the Education vote you will actually be a cause of sufferance to the teachers , for they want the money . And money is here .

THE CHAIRMAN : Just before the hon . S.P. Kwakwa speaks . I have this announcement to make . The hon . the Chief Minister would like to meet members of the Ruling Party immediately after the adjournment , and to put our records correct the tablings on item 9 which we promised will be done , they will not be done .

MR . S.P. KWAKWA : Mr. Chairman , this thing takes us back to 1953 when I was the then president of T.A.T.A. which the Republican Government put it under the Department of Native Affairs . I prepared a memorandum as a president and sent it to the then Minister of Native Education , the late Dr. Verwoerd , objecting very strongly that our education shouldn't be put under the Native Affairs Department . At that time you could foresee that what is happening today would happen . I am not surprised today that education is not getting enough money because there was something wrong at that time . We insisted that education should be placed under the Department of Union Education where it would be handled by people concerned with education . I will not be here for the week so I will continue with my speech on Monday when I come back from the boarders .

THE CHAIRMAN : On that note the House shall adjourn until Wednesday at 10h00 .

THE HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 17h00

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THE FIFTH SESSION OF THE SECOND LEBOWA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

APRIL 27TH 1977

COMMENCEMENT The sitting commences at 10h10 . The Speaker read a Prayer . ADOPTION OF MINUTES MR . A.S. MAHLANGU : Mr. Speaker , minutes have been read and I move that they should be adopted .

MR . M.T. BOPAPE : Mr. Speaker I second him .

OBITUARIES THE SPEAKER : The hon . House with sadness I announce to you of this death . You will realise that your good interpreter Mr. Lekalakala is late . He became sick and ultimately God took him . As one of your members let us stand up and observe the moment of silence . (The House stood up and observed a moment of silence ) . Thank you .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Speaker and hon . members having regard to the announcement made by the Speaker , regarding the passing away of the Chief Interpreter of this hon . House I think it is proper that I should associate myself with sentiments expressed by Mr. Speaker on this occasion . I received the message very early this morning . In fact they tried to contact me yesterday afternoon and as you were away they couldn't find me . We have very few talented language interpreter as far as I know . And it is well known by the hon . members here that the late Mr. Lekalakala was an excellent interpreter . He had the talent in this particular regards . We did not only utilise him in the proceedings of this House but each time we went to see Mr. M.C. Botha and the top officials we took him along with us . He was somewhat indispensable in this particular function . Whether we spoke in English or we spoke in the venacular he was at home . This is no boast but I heard it from colleagues , other people from the other Homelands praising the ability and capability of Lekalakala . It has never occurred to us that he was near to leaving us . It was only a few days at all he was seated there . And he never appeared to be sick . But now he belongs to history . I do want to say , Mr. Speaker , that I express on behalf of the hon . House how sympathy to the bereaved family and to relatives . And I hope all of us , the family included will be comforted by God himself .

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Let His will be done . Amen .

ANNOUNCEMENT

THE CHIEF MINISTER : It is a brief announcement , Mr. Speaker , Sir . The first one is just to remind the hon . House that they have been invited to attend the official opening of the sisal plant . I hope that the invitations have been extended . Number two , Mr. Speaker Sir , may I utilize a few minutes just to deal briefly with the visits of the hon . Chamber yesterday . We sincerely wish to have the guidance of the hon . House regarding how we have to deal with the problem of the Lebowa people on the one hand and Kgoŝi Mapoch's people on the other hand . Something has to be done . May I just remind the hon . House that in the discussions I had with the hon . M.C. Botha on this subject , he expressed himself in the following manner . He said to me that he will be very pleased if Lebowa could come to some understanding with Kgoŝi Mapoch .

He knew that we once upon a time got on with Kgoŝi Mapoch as the hon . members will recall . He didn't see why we couldn't compromise with him somehow .. He said if any agreement is reached by Lebowa and Kgoŝi Mapoch he would very much bless that . And it would appear that we should get some way of getting round the table with Kgoŝi Mapoch .

I should also remind you that my efforts to get in touch with Kgoŝi Mapoch were ripped by the interference that came from minor officials of the Department of Bantu Administration and Development . I did in all fairness take the Minister in confidence and I told him the peoplelwho were rinding our efforts in this regard . He couldn't believe that very easily because it was so irregular for an official of a department to act in that irresponsible way . I nevertheless impressed upon a way of coming round the table with Kgoŝi Mapoch and hammer out our differences and see whether we can't find a solution . So the hon . House , I would be very pleased if there can be any way in which we could have the position handled in the manner that is satisfactorily to all concerned .

You are aware of the feelings of the people in that part of Lebowa . They would prepare to live peacefully and ahppily with Mapoch . They are not prepared to match at all because there are no substantial reasons for removing those people . And you hon . members expressed yourself very strongly against the consolidation plan if the Central Government . You have suggested alternative consolidation plan but Pratoria does not accept the alternative plan . And now that is the dilemma . And we want the guidance of this hon . House Mr. Speaker Sir .

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MR . S.M. LANGA : Yesterday we went to Moutse . Though we have not finished but we have seen something . But if you can think well it helps us nothing to talk about Mapoch always . Truly speaking we see where the mistake lies . If you have a land and somebody takes it from you and gives it to another person you must find out who is giving that to somebody else . Many of you have seen and you even know though you can't say anything . I request that we forget chattering about Mapoch . We reproach him now . Let us find out from the one who caused all these troubles that why should he take this from us . Now the Moutse people can watch Mapoch but they've said we should not fight him . They have even explained that Mapoch arrived there in 1924 . They don't know when they settled there perhaps in 18's . If we are always going to be behind Mapoch we will mix - up matters . The point is that this person is taking our land for what good sake . It is from this House that we should co - operate . We must talk to Mapoch and should know that we are his relatives . He is our fellow man let him understand our language and let us understand his . We can unite this government and become a proper one . Just bear in mind this that if you always say things in this House and we as Ndebeles feel very much touched . Even the white too , if he always say Mapoch we feel very much touched . You can't put an English fellow and an Afrikaner apart . We are not Englishmen and Boers . We are one thing . If you investigate the origin of people you'll find that we are one thing . We have been born by the same person . We must be one thing with Mapoch .

KGOŜI J.K. NKADIMENG : Thank you Mr. Speaker . We had a nice trip to go and see where people were fighting for land . I was impressed by speeches delivered there . I got a point ; being to discuss with Mapoch . I heard someone mentioning , that they are telling lies . That point has indicated that what is happening outside there we run short of them . When getting there we stood firm on one point . But when we were there I heard some of the hon . members of this House telling those people that they are telling you lies . One of this hon . members I will mention his name . When we were there at Maganagobuŝwa Kgoŝi Mashegoane told somebody that we are telling them lies . That disturbed them really . When we were there at Kgoŝi Mathebe someone also told Kgoŝi Mathebe that we were telling them lies . I request that if we agree let it be on one thing . I don't say let us fight . I say let us have one mind . Thank you . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I thank you the hon . Speaker. On the matter which is discussed it is necessary for the Lebowa Government to prove that it is ripe in thinking . We should bear in mind that there are some of the people here in the government of Lebowa who have experivor and some who are still to experience . Now those who have experience should guide those who have not yet gained experience because this House work according to a pattern of two parties viz . the Ruling Party and the Opposition Party . Now some don't know what the value of Opposition Party is . un various countries in cases such as the land problem or war all the parties unite to defend their land.

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There can be criticism but not opposition in such matters . We should understand that criticism is an element in shaping matters so that when they appear outside they should be one thing which is correct . The world outside should see what good has been done by this House . What was said by the hon . Kgoŝi Nkadimeng has not happened yesterday only at the place which we were coming from but the spirit also spread when we were at Bohlabela . This indicated to me that there are those who when accompanying us make matters worse when we are busy cooling the situation . Therefore I request all the hon . members that wherever they find themselves having nothing constructive to talk about they should better keep quiet . So to say they help those who want to separate us . You will realise that when governments are adjacent to each other the main thing good is to co - operate . That's why these governments have ambassadors in other countries . If there is a stir for a war let's say against Mapoch now will there be those who will go to fight ? Perhaps those who are having such a mind will think so that if something bad happens to cause this government to fall they will get some positions . As they will have taken this government by blood they will be in a better position to have understanding with these neighbours whom they are now telling them we are telling them lies . By so doing they say fight against each other . I want to thank what the Chief Minister and his Cabinet for having made it possible that there should be a dialogue between us and Mapoch . This House knows well that the hon . Chief Minister has said that it was long that he was sending some people to go and discuss this problem with Mapoch and there was a promise in the success of this settlement when one time a troublemonger sets in to disrupt the whole matters . In this hon . House there are those who are related to Mapoch and they understand each other very well . This House should help us in that we should send those who have a better understanding with Mapoch to settle with him perhaps he will listen to them . I don't see any benefit when we Lebowans are fighting against the Mapoch's Ndebeles . Whom if scrutinizing their blood can't find any relation with that of the Ndebele? When thinking about the past some of the hon . Magoŝi in this very House , who are actually Batau , are originating from the Swazis. The most whom their totem is tau if you investigate back you'll find that they call themselves Laka . Now the Swazis and Zulus are one and the same people . We , the Swazis , Zulus and the Ndebeles are the same people . Our problem is brought about by one person who doesn't know that we are the same people . Can't the hon . House teach itself from what the whites did in 1909? In 1909 there were four Crown Colonies and the British Protectorates . These small governments were actbally under the British government and they came to realise that a lot of misunderstanding and a waste of funds was prevalent . It was difficult to run four small governments in one land. There were 4 governors , 4 prime ministers and 4 governments . And there were constant boundary disputes . And custom duties were giving a lot of difficulties and problem .

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So it was decided to have one government with one parliament . So in 1913 the Union of South Africa was formed . And their slogan was Unity is Strength because Afrikaners noticed that he as an Afrikaner could not stand alone without the English . And the English felt that they couldn't do without the Afrikaners and the Germans . And so they decided to be one government . It is not surprising to see that they have discovered the value of unity and they are afraid of the unity amonst blacks . So they started to get the so - called anthropologists who started this big trouble . And the anthropologists were very pleased because they would obtain a lot of doctorates by telling people that this one does not belong to that one . The hon . House will remember that the hon . Dr. Verwoerd was not an anthropologist but those under him and working with him are the very very people who started this doctorate development . The very notorious architect of apartheid . Those are the people who advised the Minister of Native Affairs to start this ball rolling of separating people . They say a Southern Sotho speaking person does not belong to the Tswana whilst they name Tswana-speaking person a Western Sotho . And they say Tswana is not belonging to Lebowa and they even tried to take Tswanas out of us . They also took Kutse , Mapai and Mapulana out of us . Now that they have done so they have found a way out because they have now started by creating posts for them that they should earn money if they broke away from us . Now we here at this moment have a big problem of trying to put these people together so that we should form one thing again . That's why the hon . Chief Minister in his Department of Education is still having schools for Zulus , Tsongas Pedis and Sothos . We have them here , we are trying that this department should cater for every black person here in Lebowa in as afr as education is concerned .

Yesterday the hon . Chief Minister told us that he has invited the Commissioner - General and Mr. Grobler to this House to attend the solving of this problem and they did not come . Their reason not to be here is that they might be aware that those will say we have been told by Grobler or Pieterson . They even failed to send a message that they will be unable to come what we now should do as we are advanced in accepting anybody is to take steps to unite with other adjacent governments so as to live with each other . Yesterday when we left Maganagobuŝwa it was just a short distance to cross the river over to Mapoch's location . If we accept these issue of separation , is going to hold back sons and daughters of Maganagobuŝwa from marrying at Mapoch's place ? Now those who don't have matured minds in this House should now have it in their minds that they have grown up , they are men and women . We want to build the people of God . God says love your neighbour very much . I repeat by saying let this House help the Chief Minister and this government with ideas and people who can revive this dialogue issue . We now learn from the Central Government that there is a detente . America tried to unite the people it sent Sir Henry Kissinger .

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Seeing that they have not finished they put Mr. Andrew Young to unite people . Now we have Mr. Richards and Owen . One did come and has failed , now they have sent the other one to unite people . The idea is to put people together . We in Lebowa should understand each other . Mapoch is our fellow man . Perhaps in future my child is going to marry Mapoch's child . Let us not blame our people . The fault lies with the person who brought those things . As those people failed to turn up yesterday we must find a way out to meet them . This House should consider that one who is afraid of us sent his angels to come and devide us . We , here in Lebowa , should be one thing . We actually know that when united we shall have strength . Thank you .

KGOĜI D.M. LANGA : Mr. Speaker and the hon . House about our trip I was satisfied because we Thomases we believe in seeing . We were hurt yesterday by the speech of Kgoŝi Matlala . People usually don't think the same way . A point of getting to Kgoŝi Mapoch won't help us in anything . Do you think if you can borrow somebody a coat during winter you expect him to bring it back? He can't give it back to you ? Therefore following my opinion I gregard it a waste of time . We must talk to the Central Government through the hon . Mr. M.C. Botha . To Mapoch we won't see anyting . To continue I would like the Speaker to withdraw the words he uttered when we were there yesterday . His words says " the Kekana's Ndebeles should go . We don't have any relationship with them ; let them go that way " . When I was looking at him I found myself being bitter about this . Could the Speaker withdraw those words?

KGOĜI M.M. MATLALA : Hon . members I believe that according to the rule the thing which has been said in this House is possible to withdraw but not h the one which was said outside .

KGOĜI D.M. LANGA : I understand the hon . members but I will just complain . If he made an excuse I would say it was the slip of a tongue . We Ndebeles we stay with you here , we co - operate with you and don't influence us with this bad spirit . It is long that we were not living with Mapoch and it is long that we were living with you and we speak even the Northern Sotho language . The day before I said this government should do for us what we need becaue it is just like a woman we are proposed . The woman is proposed by every man . Clothe ner so that she may not desert you because you will be caring for her . Now what you do , you give those people who pull us with jackets more powers to expel us from the House .

MR . S.M. LANGA : Mr. Speaker I don't agree with your point that it will be impossible for the hon . member to withdraw his words because this happened out this House .

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THE SPEAKER : Did you stand on a point of order?

MR . S.M. LANGA : Yes , I stand on a point of forder .

THE SPEAKER : By so saying you mean that the House is out of order , so tell us in which way is it out of order ? That one has spoken and now who is out of order?

MR . S.M. LANGA : Mr. Speaker my speech is with the Speaker .

THE SPEAKER : Order ! Order ! hon . members let us understand each other . Here the hon . Chief Minister says this House should advise him as to the manner in which he can bring peace between these tribes . If we can manage the matters concerning Moutse in connection with the case which the Central Government can present to us that we the Lebowans should move out to give Ndebeles a place to stay . The fact is how to bring peace here but not to fight in this House . Let us give him an idea of how to reconcile these bribes .

The hon . Mr. Langa says that I said that we should not be removed but Mapoch is the one to be taken to his own people because the Lebowans say they belong to that place and they won't move . They claim that is Mapoch who found them there . When we were there I said if we separate , then Mapoch should go to his home . If that was their policy , of separation . I wish to advise the members who will speak that I don't believe there is any who can talk much to Mapoch than myself . He calls me to his meetings and I also do the same to him . We advise each other in solving problems . It is not me who can reproach Mapoch . I was not reproaching Mapoch I was referring to those who wanted to put us at loggerheads with Mapoch . I wanted to know if that matter will be possible .

MR . A.S. MAHLANGU : Mr. Speaker I want to touch on matters about our trip to Moutse . We have seen there how Bantwane , Matlala , and Mapoch have build . We took some rounds in that areas on foot busy admiring . I found it necessary that Lebowa Government should meet with Mapoch and discuss . The Northern Sotho say the patient is the one who consult the doctor . Mapoch has been given his tribal authority . It seems you have a great difficulty of meeting Mapoch . Mapoch also is ruled by the Central Government . He has his commissioner who attend to him . If you want to meet him you should consult his commissioner who attends to him . If you want to meet him you should consult his commissioner so that you can meet him in Groblersdal . You can call Mapoch and his mantona and mantona from Moutse (Bantwane and the Matlala ) ; the Central Government and our Cabinet to discuss this problem .

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What I noticed whilst I was there is that Kgosi Mapoch is a kgoŝi like any other kgoŝi . He has also his own tribe . I found it suitable that he should be given farms like any other kgoŝi . We should not have an idea that Mapoch should not be given farms . Mapoch has not given himself a land . He has been given by the Central Government . The problem with the Central Government is to take one's thing and give it to Mapoch . We don't know if this is being done by the officials of the Central Government or the Central Government itself . Those people cannot give themselves powers to take those lands . They were given the first land which they were showing us yesterday . You should take a notice of the fact that that land has been bought by the Central Government and offered it to Mapoch .

It is not right when the Central Government gives Mapoch independence and should give him the land which is not his . Let them give him his land extending towards Phalagane because when he left Wonderboom he settled at Phalagare . When leaving Phalagare he went to Delmas . It is where Kgoŝi Fanny who gave birth to Mapoch has died . During the time of Japhter every man gave two oxen and bought a farm . THE SPEAKER : Order! Take a seat and device means to bring forth an advice to the Chief Minister . Tell us what to do if matters are in this position . Those we are listening when you talk . We need your advice about the situation at Moutse .

MR . A.S. MAHLANGU : I have already given this House an idea .

THE SPEAKER : We kept on listening the hon . member .

MR . A.S. MAHLANGU : An advice already given by me is that one that you should consult his commissioner at Groblersdal so that he can call Mapoch and magoŝi from Bantwane and Matlala and our Cabinet so that you should meet at Groblersdal and discuss this problem about Moutse . I think this will be of a great help . Even Pietersen the ChiefCommissioner is just near in Pietersburg . You can talk to him . Thank you .

MR . T.S. TLAKA : Mr. Speaker we are talking of expropriation of land or mass removals of people . They go hand in hand these two things . As it is Mr. Speaker this mass removals of people are a nightmare to all these people in the homelands . And the root cause of the whole thing is in the Native Administration Act of 1927. For Mr. Speaker , there is a provision for the removal of people . It says actualy without prior notice to the people concerned . And there is also provision for a consultation between the Central Government and the territorial authority of the people concerned .

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What is the meaning of consultation Mr. Speaker ? I am sure this does not mean an agreement . So Mr. Speaker if the Central Government wants to remove any tribe in any way all it has to do is to consult the Homeland Government with or without agreement . And then remove those people without prior notice to them . That's how I read that Act 38/1928 . So Mr. Speaker I feel we could spend a lot of time talking about these mass removals unless we get on an amendment to that section 5 (a) and ( b ) . I don't think it will take us further .

Mr. Speaker magoŝi which are full here if you usually see them killing each other is because of land fights . Again there is no government that can be government without land . Now let us watch out what this homeland is doing . It is a government which rules people . It has past them there and there comes a man to remove them without a prior notice to them . Therefore Mr. Speaker I don't want to expatiate further . I just want to indicate that a homeland government is not able to give its subjects a peace of mind wherever they have settled . The snag is on section 5 of Native Administration Act . I therefore request that this section be altered in another way so as to give a better deal . Thank you Mr. Speaker .

MR . GODFREY M. SEKHUKHUNE : I thank you Mr. Speaker . According to my own opinion , I feel that if all measures have failed to persuade the Central Government to forget about removing people from Moutse area , for the sake of Mapoch , I suggest that we advise the people at Moutse , Bantwane , Matlala and the rest not to move . I don't appreciate this point that those people should lose their possessions trying to appease somebody else .

KGOĜI T. MABOOE : I thank you Mr. Speaker . I don't have much to say . A matter is not attended by a group of people . It is attended by a few one , two or three . We actually know where the problem lies . People from Moutse are neighbours . Ndebeles who are there are our fellow people , we live with them . We cannot be afraid of meeting them and discuss with them . If we don't agree in this House we will disperse and some of us will get to the Ndebeles here . We should not talk the way we like . The Central Government is our father all of us . Let us consult the Central Government so as to make us meet the Mapoch's Ndebeles . We are all black in colour . Our Speaker is a great friend to Mapoch . We should be talking to him to consult with Mapoch . He will bring you along all matters you want . If he refuses then you can go to the Central Government . To keep on talking will actually be a waste of time . Thank you .

KGOĜI L.S. MATLALA : Mr. Speaker and the hon . members it is now for the second week that this hon . House has been discussing the same matter . It is very much pathetic when our children should be throwing stones at our graves . Our point is that we are the same people but because of one man we are fighting against each other , and we are going to

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kill one another and this man won't be there during that time . We force our matter to a point which it cannot reach the end . Have the knowledge that when we are busy discussing here the officials of Pretoria which cause us to fight are at Moutse . The point that we are telling lies will cause Mapoch to go and find people somewhere to come and settle there . And in future we are going to board a bus to Moutse and find the land fully occupied by people there . I tried to think about this matter but I couldn't come to any conclusion . We lack the right person to inform us what Lebowa has done to the Central Government . We are one and the same persons with Mapoch . We have Ndebeles here in Lebowa . Now who can deny that Ndebeles could leave us as a result of good thing that can be done to Mapoch . They can go to Mapoch and then they can divide the whole Lebowa . In the East also it is just the same . Now where is Lebowa going to remain ? That side Swazis also get a share from Lebowa . However Lebowa has developed .

We should not be slow in acting Lebowa is getting reduced . Usually we draw a conclusion and sent the right person there . We should tell him how we want things to be just now . It is for two weeks that we have been discussing the land issue . By the time we shall becoming wake - up we shall find ourselves only . Those villages we saw yesterday there , no one can demolish his house there . Rather than to demolish he would better be ruled by Mapoch . If they go to Mapoch their piece of land too will go to Mapoch and he will accept them . Again it is not a difficult task to belong to Mapoch . It is from this House to corner the Central Government about its affairs . You are witnesses to the fact that this separation was brought about by the Central Government . When we are saying that whites are a multiracial society it seems we are scandalizing them . If you ask a small boy , he will tell you that they are all whites . If you ask a boy of whites he will tell you that they are all blacks . All of us we are the people . We are only forming two groups i.e. whites and blacks . What they can tell us is that Mapoch is far from Seshego and let him form his territorial government . They have heard from somebody saying we are different people . If they don't understand we shall do away with this system of government and reconcile with our own Ndebeles . What helps us because there is no improvement ? The last thing to do is to fight one another . If Pretoria does not want to understand what we want let us leave this House of theirs . It is their House but not ours . What helps us because they refuse what we want ? What makes us to be after them . It is lung that they have been toying with us and we busy watching them . They made us a Cabinet so that our people could lay a blame upon us as the people who are responsible for allocation of land whereas we are not . We have the hon . Dr. Phatudi here and they call him the Chief Minister of Lebowa . What is he doing because they don't listen to him when he speaks ? It is only that his people should hate him . Should we kill him ? If he is dead should we get nothing ? Should we attack each other with spears and they busy spectating . Lebowans , if a thing has failed it should be abandoned . We failed in achieving something . If they refuse what we have been discussing about the boundaries then we leave this thing of theirs and each and every one should get to his own house .

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DEPUTY SPEAKER : Order ! Order! hon . members be calm the Chair is calm . The issue on the table is what are our advices to the Chief Minister in these circumstances .

THE SPEAKER : Mr. Deputy Speaker , the sun will even set while we are busy discussing the same issue . I mean if we are discussing this issue we should exclude the name of Kgoŝi Mapoch . Kgoŝi Mapoch personally , is a person of understanding . He is prepared to discuss with us and understand . We should not be angry with him because he is not to be blamed for what happened . I know him . Even one of you can go there and he won't come back saying that he has reprimanded him or that he rejects good ideas from you . When these territorial authorities started I was one of the first people to become a member . I was a member of every committee of the territorial authority . That's the way I came to be with Kgoŝi Mapoch . People from Moutse will remember that we were holding the same meetings with Mapoch . Never did Mapoch's Ndebeles show a bad attitude years and years back . At one time when we were at the meeting and Marapjane also Mapoch's Ndebeles at Groblersdal , there came whites from Pretoria and said if you didn't get out of that area of the Sothos we would deprive you of chieftainship . It was then when the Kgatlas went to Mangope . It was then that they started excluding Mapoch .

Now I say let us give the Chief Minister a solution to this problem . It is not Mapoch's fault . Mapoch was taken to Emmerpan . Emmerpan is the place of water which cause a rush . It is also not good for cattle . Whites failed to make a living out of that place . Therefore I think it is worthwhile to appoint committees . One will have a dialogue with Shangaans , the others with Vendas , Mapoch and the Central Government so as to form this matter well . We must not fight each other for this issue . It is not ours but for someone else . Let us all form one thing and see who will find fault in this matter . Let us just forget about the Central Government and be one thing . This issue can be brought about by the committees . Thank you .

KGOĜI T.M. MASHEGAONE : Mr. Speaker , I agree with the words of Mr. Godfrey Sekhukhune . But I differ with him in one point only .

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Order ! Order ! hon . members if you just rise up and give your own suggestions , they are welcomed and leave those of hon . Sekhukhune alone . Continue hon . member .

KGOĜI T. MASHEGOANE : The Deputy Speaker we are wasting time by saying that the Moutse people should not move because Pretoria has already finalized this . The Moutse people should accept Mapoch and stay with him . He should have his own government . As times goes on you'll see Lebowa and Mapoch's governments becoming one thing .

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The Central Government has tried to be wise but it failed . Even if it can take five years you'll find the Chief Minister being Mathebe . Here in Lebowa you'll then find the Chief Minister being Mr. E.M. Mogashoa . The Deputy Speaker it will not help us for keeping on mumbling . Let us accept what we are offered . It helps nothing to refuse what we have accepted through our Cabinet .

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Order ! Order ! hon . member . Hon . member I want to draw your attention to relevancy . The matter on the table is not that book . Here we only want to go to give the Chief Minister advices to go about this question . And if you are exhausted kindly take your seat because we have so many members that still want to speak and give suggestions .

MR . A.S. MAHLANGU : Point of order Mr. Deputy Speaker . It is truth that we should discuss this book because it contains laws . Therefore the hon . member for Sekhukhuneland is not out of order .

KGOŜI T. MASHEGOANE : Mr. Speaker I want to inform you that what is contained in this book is what we are discussing . I discuss what the Cabinet has done . It has been signed here that Moutse is falling under the Ndebeles . Let us release it not to fall under the Ndebeles . Thank you .

KGOĜI M.B. RIBA : Thank you Mr. Speaker . I also say this government shows no strength . The matter we are busy with now , is of great importance . The hon . Chief Minister says he is asking for an advice from the members of this House with regard to this matter . Dikgoŝi are responsible for allocation of ploughing fields at their places . If a person being allocated a field and see someone ploughing there he will go straight to such a person and ask him why he does that . Then that person gives a reply that he was allocated that field by moŝhate . The complainant will then be surprised why the chief gives them the same field . The two will go to the kgoŝi to inquire . Therefore I see only three people who can help in the solution of this problem . These are the three governments . The problem of Kgoŝi Mapoch resembles the one of Gazankulu .

Firstly we must get to those people who take the land with an agreement . I suggest that Lebowa should meet Gazankulu and Mapoch and thereafter the Central Government about this issue . If they refuse won't it be advisable to consult the hon . Mr. M.C. Botha to make them to meet us? I don't believe Gazankulu and Mapoch deny the fact that we are one and the same people because we intermarry . Therefore Mr. Speaker I don't agree with the point that we appoint various committees , because they will give different reports which will cause us to start a whole matter afresh .

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How does it come that it be impossible for these governments to meet because Gazankulu has its own Chief Minister and the Commissioner- General , Mapoch and Lebowa too have the same . Coming to this point mentioned by Mr. Andries Mahlangu that they should meet at a certain spot ; is this not going to cause an argument about the venue ? If we are many won't there be those who will diverge issues like the day before yesterday? Like Kgoŝi Mashegoane when he was saying they tell you lies ? Now I will ask this hon . member to explain what lies was the Cabinet telling . What were they saying? This matter caused me feel pain very much because who was being told like that was my Kgoŝi Mashegoane .

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Order , that matter that they are telling you lies has been mentioned . If the hon . member has finished he must please resume his seat because I have many members waiting to share the ideas .

KGOŝI M.B. RIBA : I am finishing Mr. Speaker . This hon . member was trying to diverge this person by influencing him with such a disease which affected many people . If we have such type of people in this House what are we discussing then? How are we going to solve these matters of great importance ? I've already given my advice .

MR . GAD SEKHUKHUNE : The hon . Speaker and the hon . House this matter is a big one . The government is a government due to the land . Now if we don't fight for land what else are we to fight for? Again if we fight for money we are fighting for land because money comes from the land . If you fight for the people you are fighting for land because the people live on land . Therefore let us discuss this matter in secret . The case of an orphan is discussed by orphans and gets finished . Gazankulu was belonging to Lebowa falling under Naphuno . Now the Central Government which is our father has taken it out . Mapoch was a Lebowan falling under Leruleng . Now our father is taking him out . In other words this is to reduce Lebowa . You have a mistake . If Pretoria could tell us of our mistake we could plead with it . Mr. Speaker the day before we appointed Mr. Ramusi's Commission to draw up a map for Lebowa but Pretoria refused it . Now they have given us this one . Now I say go and draw another map . That one was claimed to be big . This matter on land , we have said it is a big one because it is a national issue . The Chief Minister has requested us to give him advice . Advices will be many and won't be the same . You'll choose just amongst them . We are intthe middle of the land . On that side we fight against Bakgatla for boundaries . On this side we are coming from Shangaans the day before . This side is Mapoch . Now we are twenty - five years busy discussing the boundary - issue year after year . Because we are hardluck our problems are many - sided . My suggestion is this that because the Central Government has a large land , we ..

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THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Order ! This House will adjourn until 2.15 p.m.

THE HOUSE ADJOURNS FOR LUNCH AT 12h45 . THE HOUSE RESUMED THE PROCEEDINGS AT 2b30

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Hon . House when we adjourned we were still discussing the request of the Chief Minister or giving him advices . Hon . members will realise that according to the Rules of Procedure this should have taken us only 90 minutes . This only means that we have come to a stage where we must respect our Rules of Procedure . And before we close this debate I wish to make a compromise that I'll give an extra 30 minutes . And those hon . members I'll call upon please should make use of the time as I am going to limit you. From each hon . member I want strictly one suggestion .

MR . M.W. KGATLA : Mr. Speaker Sir I concur with the Chief Whip and the Assistant Whip . We said we shall ask for your indulgence following the Rule 167. We have realised that this is a national issue and it cannot be decided haphazardly as such . And we requested the relative Ministers with whom we should be going on with their votes or with the Minister's vote to allow this House to finalize this issue by giving the Chief Minister exactly what we want to give him in order that this thing can come to a finality . The two whips Mr. Mathole and Mr. Mothiba have agreed upon that we shall ask you to leave this House to decide on this issue , the whole of this afternoon completely . For we see no reason of our getting down to the East and we come in the House and talk for 30 minutes . Next week we go down to Moutse we come and talk 90 minutes , next time perhaps we shall be getting down to Mokerong , we come and talk 3 hours . That doesn't help us in any sense . Instead of finishing this thing finally as the Chief Minister has given us a mandate .

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Order ! Order ! hon . House I am not urging a debate against hon . member . And I am not against your debating this issue until five o'clock . And the honourable Chair is not in a position to differ with the Whips . But what the hon . member has been saying is news to me because the two whips together with the leader of the House have concurred in that little office of ours , that at all costs Rules of Procedure must be followed . Now if the Chief Whip in the person of the hon . L.G. Mathole gives instruction outside that little room of ours , the Chair is prepared to do so .

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MR. M.W. KGATLA: Mr. Speaker , Sir , thank you so much. Perhaps I should have said this. The Chief Whip happened to come during Lundh. Mr. L. Mothiba and I happened to meet him at the hotel where we get our food during lunch. And the leader of the House was with us at the hotel. When we tried to show the Speaker how important this matter was. It is where we concluded mot in your closet. THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:: Order! Order! hon. House I wällr do as they wish. But they must remember the Speaker has an office. Anything pertaining to this hom. touse must be discussed in the Speaker's office. Therefore we shall proceed.

MR . M.W. KGATLA : Thank you Mr. Speaker Sir, Whilst you are there

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Hon. member , hon. member. I am calling the members now to speak .

MR. M.W. KGATLA : Yes before you do that Mr.. -Speaker Sir. The Chief Whip and his assistant have said some guiding lines must be given in this House in order to have a proper debate on this issue , because of the following reasons. This morning we have been listening to some members who says we must close this parliament and go home and tell Pretoria that we don't want anything else, That is irregular and irresponsibility. We have started here right down in 1951 and it will be out of order for us just to stop today and say we have no more to do with the Lebowa Government as such.

MR. M.J. PHASH : Point of order Mr.. Speaker. When the House adjourned the thom . member from Sekhukhuneland Mr. Gad Sekhukhune was holding the floor,, so procedurally he is the man to be given the platform as we start.. Thank you .

MR. M.W. KGATLA: Mr. Speaker I was just giving a green light that the Chief Whip and the Assistant Whip have said that the House should be guided as how to debate this. I am not on the floor to speak right mow. We went to the East to go and see the boundaries and a few minutes when we came in fhere we say we must leave those boundaries there and invite the Tswanas to join us . What do we want in the East then? And we went to Motetema yesterday to go and see how our people are suffering there. And how the is saying we must leave everything and say we make peace with Mapoch and in the meantime , and this was said we must tell exactly what we want in order to guide the House. Thank you Mr. Speaker.

KGOSI M.M. MATLALA: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Last time I couldn't catch him in this House.

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We went out then I understand him after he had explained clearly to me . I understood him and then I asked for forgiveness from him . Now , even now in this House ; I am still saying that so that he can understand that I mean it .

MR . GAD SEKHUKHUNE : Mr. Speaker we have said that this land issue is a big one . The Central Government takes our land and gives it to the Tsongas . The Central Government has quite a big land . Why it couldn't give the Tsonga the land which is theirs ? In the first place we fought the Whites . Because they have guns they defeated us . If you have defeated a person do you take all his belongings ? I say to the magoŝi that land been taken from them should go to the Central Government . Perhaps the Central Government will listen to them . Not we . Because we can be told that we know nothing about that land . Its owner has kept quiet and what worries you then? Thank you .

KGOŜIGADI J. MAHLO : Thank you Mr. Speaker . I want to know how it could be if we appoint a committee to go and` discuss with Mapoch that Lebowa wants to co - operate with him ? Thank you Mr. Speaker .

KGOŝI M.M. MARISHANE : Thank you Mr. Speaker . My fellow people whom are we fighting ? Kgoŝi Mapoch is our brother . Whom did he ever chasen away when he has visited him ? What for are we fighting against him? If we are not fighting hin . whom are we fighting ? The person we are fighting is a white man as he has taken what is mine and gave it to my brother . Now we are fighting him . My fellow people I think we must first discuss with our fellow brothers . If we failed it is then that we can goto others . I second Mr. Mahlangu on this point . In short is that we should meet Mapoch , magoŝi at Moutse and the Cabinet . After we have agreed there then we will get to Pretoria to ask for what we want . I say so because even the hon . Mr. M.C. Botha has accepted such a move . That we should go and discuss with Kgoŝi Mapoch . So if we haven't got in a deadlock with Mapoch we should not complain that Mapoch has gone wrong in this way . Just now we have a Commission which went after it . The Swazis did accept that they should belong to us . The issue is still under discussion . This one should be put aside and the Mapoch affair . Another point that worried me is the one mentioned by the hon . Kgoŝi Mashegoane . That they are telling you lies

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Order hon . Kgoŝi I think that point was raised by two members . And the second member I ruled him out of order because he was repeating .

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The very fact that at the onset he never denied . He has accepted in this House he is satisfied that he has accepted .

KGOSI M.M. MARISHANE : Mr. Speaker Sir , I just want to add to this point that in case he is admitting he should therefore withdraw .

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Hon . members I shall not allow a debate on that . According to our Rules of Procedure if I say Mr. X is a murderer in this House I just have to apologise . Otherwise he cannot sue me for that . But if I said it outside this House he has all the rights of suing me . So that the hon . Kgoŝi Mashegoane could be made to apologise outside this House because he said it outside this House .

MR . S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr. Speaker I am perturbed because of this land issue . One member has just said that we have been to the East and Moutse on this particular issue of land . Mr. Speaker our human relations with the Blacks of the different ethnic groups have been in order . It is true that we had some difficulties with the Whites . And the Whites with their wisdom applied their tactic of divide and ride . And now we are quarrelling amongst ourselves in this hon . House and outside this House . And the man who caused this thing is happy . He has united with his soul brothers - all the whites . Whilst we are busy with this problem the white man is busy putting on sign boards , this is where you belong , this is Lebowa , this is Gazankulu and all that . The other day the Minister of Education told us in this House that B.A.D. officials told them that whatever they want to do they will do it irrespective of what they are saying . Therefore dialoque and statues are buried when it comes to the black side . Which means dialoque can only be exercised when this hon . House and other hon . Houses which are like this one , which are in the Central Government want us to do . Mr. Speaker I want to address myself directly to Pretoria

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Order ! Do it through the Chair hon . member .

MR . S.S. MOTHAPO : That Mr. Speaker Pretoria must learn to respect the thinking of a black man . Mr. Speaker I read the history of South Africa . And in the History of Africa if you follow it down this way you will realise one fact that the blacks were always happy with the whites until they wanted what is theirs by right . In Kenya Mr. Speaker , we had the Mao Mao Movement . And this movement did not really come out to confront the white man . Because the white man did not heed the voice of reasoning the confrontation started . And it was then when they decided to fight directly against the white man . In Malawi for example , Mr. Speaker , there was a movement called

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Operation Sunrise . This movement was particularly there to reflect the sentiments of the black people in as far as their political rights are concerned . And it was when the white people hardened their hearts . Then this movement started fighting directly against the whites . Your indulgence , Mr. Speaker , the wise chairman of that movement Chilemberri then started things in the bug against the whites . All what I want to say Mr. Speaker is that in S.A. here the black man is not demanding something beyond` his reach . The black man is not making useless demands . The black man is speaking in love and peace . And the question is why are we not listened to when we seek something in this country . I would go further to the signed pact in Guinea and Bizaire , the Frelimo in Mozambique . And what is happening in Angola and South West Africa . I want to say to the White man now that we are still speaking peacefully please give us an ear . Mr. Speaker I would like to point out from this Canto Bock .

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Order ! Order! hon. House I am a bit in difficulty . I thought you were giving suggestion to the Chief Minister . My difficulty is this . The Chief Minister is not present . The Secretary for his Department is not present also . The leader of the House is not present . Now I am just wondering whether the Assistant Whip is taking record of all what you have said to hand over to the Chief Minister . It's not a debate . It is just that I am in that difficulty .

MR . L.C. MOTHIBA : Mr. Deputy Speaker the point here is that once the whole House has taken a division on the suggestion of a member , it is noted down by the Secretary of the Legislative Assembly and will accordingly be transferred to the Chief Minister .

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : The same difficulty which I was voicing out from the Secretary of the Department , I learn if there is a resolution , they will note it down . But they can't note down all what you are saying . Continue .

MR . S.S. MOTHAPO : Thank you Mr. Speaker for allowing me to continue . Mr. Speaker it pains me to look at this little map in this Banbo Book . If you look at how the vehicle man takes all the fertile land plus all the major town give all these barren land to a black man . All the areas that are in the so - called Lebowa . Mr. Speaker from my religious point of view there are some other things that I feel I cannot say but I am compelled by circumstances to say them . Mr. Speaker if you look at this map and you see how things are done , to me consolidation without towns and without all those other Europeans who are in this very territory as far as it could be devided as a territory at large , to me this is radically stupidity .

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Mr. Speaker I must expect the fact that the policy of separate development as it stands has failed . Mr. Speaker it has been mentioned here by the hon . members from Moutse that it was not the intention of Mapoch or the Swazis to quit Lebowa . It has been stated very clearly that the white man told them that if they don't quit Lebowa they will lose their rights . Hence Mapoch cannot co- operate in all respects . May I indicate to this House in actual fact Mapoch does not owe ua any land whatsoever . And that Mapoch so far is in favour of the consolidation as long as it favours him . But from the point of our own people who are there , and actually saying that they don't want to be removed , this is what I would like to say , it is the Bantu Administration and Development which owes us the land . It is this department which does not want to consolidate the land . And if that be the case , the hon . the department concerned should therefore bear the costs . Mr. Speaker I think it is not a great sacrifice to can allow our people to remain there and to consolidate that it land from that end up to wherever reaches . Therefore Mr. Speaker if negotiations have to be made it should be with the Central Government because if that will not be the case you must agree with a certain group of people but o . you still have got the land problem . Hence the other day I mentioned in this hon . House that if this separate development as it stands , it is not on salvation . And we cannot look to Pretoria for our own salvation . Hence I suggested in this hon . House that I thin we must now look at ourselves and prove to the government that we are thinking a lot . By simply realising that we should come together and be a united black nation . So that we could now stand as a black nation demanding our rights as citizens of this country politically , economically and socially as a bond of black . The policy of divide -and- rule is made for this . If you are in your various camps the so - called homelands then you are going to be called the minority groups of the blacks in South Africa . Even ;if we outnumber them thrice or four times now . But as long as they accept this in toto we will have to come to the state of accepting to be the black minority in this country . That is why I did appeal to the Chief Minister that since he has been associating himself with the black Unity Front . Why can't he ask for a mandate from this House to continue doing so because I think by so doing he would be giving a hand in building up one united black nation in South Africa . Mr. Speaker I want to conclude by saying divided we fall , united we stnad . Thewhite people united in 1909 to form the Union of South Africa . And up to now the Union is still standing even if it has taken a different phase as the Republic of South Africa. If there is any lesson that this hon . House should learn , it is from there and from that history , let us not allow the white man to divide us to such an extend than we will be unable dto come back to him and say we belong to South Africa . Therefore the ideas that I brought up Mr. Speaker are two .

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One is that since Mapoch owes us no land , let us get about him and face the man who is intending to have us at loggerheads . Secondly Mr. Speaker we endevour to become a black nation in South Africa . We stand ourselves to that goal so much that we can stand and speak with one voice for our blacks . Thank you Mr. Speaker .

KGOĜI Z.T. SELEKA : Mr. Speaker and the hon . House I don't usually speak much . I hope , the honl House when some of us are speaking are not peasing some other members of the House . I am one of the people who wants to talk and get praised by people , saying that I am able . The matter laid before us here is that the Chief Minister needs an advice in connection with the land question . There are two things the restoration of Mapoch's name and removal I don't want to say a thing about Mapoch's name because if I do so I will come to that case we did in 1967 and 1968 here by calling a meeting of the Transvaal Ndebeles and of the Mahlangu too . I now come to the removal of our people at Moutse . It has been already said that they will move . This removals do not concern Moutse alone but even some countries . In 1973 there was a say of this kind , where I , Kgoŝi Seleka and other magoŝi were concerned . We who were concerned about this removal we pleaded with the Central Government that it should not remove us . I don't like it that whenever a fire is burning I should put more oil in it . I want to extinquish it . When c members are talking they forget their positions in this world . They talk as if they have powers . Brothers whenever talking about things on this earth we should bear in mind that there is the one with more powers , than we . If a person has defeated you , take a hat off for him . Mr. Speaker my advice is that we request that those who are supposed to be removed should not .

MR. L.M. MADISHA : Mr. Speaker what is required is to advice our Chief Minister but the problem is how? I will come with my advice of the day before yesterday that we should have a dialoque with Gazankulu . Now I just wonder if this House is unable to support me on this point . Everyone when speaking emphasises the point that Tsongas and Ndebeles are lies brothers and sisters . Now where lies the difficulty that we should discuss with them that we should work together as children of the same family ? So to say it will be a destruction of the boundaries which are made by blocks of wood . If we want a land we should do this being together . Now the hon . House you ignore this point . Some when speaking it seems it is the first time they have heard about self- government . I hope that the time we were receiving this self - government we agreed with the Central Government that we shall co- operate with it through dialoque . So before we could agree with the Central Government we should first talk to our fellow brothers . My advice to the Chief Minister is that he should consult with his fellow brothers first . If they become hard nuts to crack we should know what next steps to take .

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MR . L.G. MATHOLE : Mr. Speaker the manner in which we are discussing this land issue , it seems we and Mapoch are owing each other a land . Mapoch has a place where he is staying . He doesn't owe us that place . What has frightened us is that we are moving due to Mapoch . We were never informed by the government that we will move , since the day before yesterday when the Bambo map was released . The whole time we had a hearsy that it seems we will be moved by the Central Government to Emmerpan . Now should we complain about the Mapoch whilst we know the cause of these matters , the Central Government which is busy removing people at Witbank and Middleburg daily to settle them at Vlakfontein Location . My advice is that we should talk to the people we are complaining about that they should not take away our land . Let us forget a little bit about Mapoch .

MR . T.P. MAKOLA : Mr. Speaker I hthink this matter has been fully discussed . Therefore Mr. Speaker I don't know what am I going to say now . Thank you .

KGOŜI K.F. SEOPELA : Mr. Speaker as the matter has been well settled I wish it could be taken to their owners . It is useless if the tiger has been stabbed I should destroy it . Is it a real hunting ? It is unworthwhile to make noise whilst the owner of the matter has just seated . Mr. Speaker I move that this should be passed .

KGOŜIGADI V.T. DINKWANYANE : Mr. Speaker and the hon . House , this matter has been exhausted . Mapoch is our brother - in - law , we intermarry . To discuss about him ti helps nothing . I say we are people of the same colour with Mapoch . Usually neighbours tends to be at loggerheads due to strange person▲ The solution is that we neighbours when are at loggerheads we should reconcile . Dialogue is similar to the slogan that says unity is strength . I suggest that we should talk to Mapoch . Thank you .

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Hon . members I have a motion here on the table . If you find that the motion is along what you wanted to say you should tell this Chair whether you accept the resolution because along with this resolution I have been trying to take statistics . 10% say we must form committees . 10% say speak to Mapoch and then we can send his frinds . 50% say let us approach mapoch and have the discussions and then send the Cabinet . 20% say let us consult withe the Central Government and then later go to Mapoch . Now here is the resolution . That I move that the Lebowa Government through its Cabinet follows up these boundary disputes with Pretoria as follows . ( a)

that the people of Lebowa do not endorse mass removals whenever their people are .

(b)

that if consolidation has to be done it should cover all the areas where Lebowa nationals and also including all the towns within Lebowa .

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Mover : S.S. Mothapo Seconder : T.P. Makola

MR . N.R. MAMPURU : Mr. Speaker what I observed here is that we are made children . Usually we discuss a matter here but there is nothing better taking place . We can send people but the land be taken . Yesterday when we were at Moutse I have learned what type of people are whites . There at the Ndebeles I heard one of the Minister confusing Mahlangu and Mapoch . It shows that Mahlangu and Mapoch are brothers but are put at loggerheads by whites . Now I am perturbed . Just now I agree with the point that some of magoŝi should meet the Central Government because there is nothing they are going to say there . We must tell the Central Government to settle that issue .

KGOĜI T.J. MOTHAPO : Mr. Speaker I stand with disappointment about the Mapoch issue . I remember the document signed by the Lebowa Council in 1971. They are those appointed to be the members of the government in 1969 . Their leader was Kgoŝi M.M. Matlala . That document was signed after they consulted with Gazankulu at Mapulaneng . They have signed it at the University of the North . It was said they have been satisfied the way they have settled the land of Lebowa . The then Chief Minister alleges that in 1974 when the former Chief Minister was holding talks with the Chief Minister of Gazankulu Prof. Ntsanwisi he was concerned with the English usage . But the one who was the leader of these people was Kgoŝi M.M. Matlala . We were discussing this under the mandate of this House . That's why the Ramusi Commissioner was appointed to survey the boundaries of Lebowa and the Transvaal . I still remeber one day being with the hon . Mr. M.C. Botha at Pretoria , we telling him about this issue of boundaries . And he said you should know a the you and Gazankulu agree on this point that Gazankulu take that part on that side of the tar - road . You take on this part of the tar road at Mapulaneng . We said that was arranged by those who are not here at this time . Our Parliament is against that agreement , of theirs . That's why we have come to you here . When coming to this one of Mapoch I have gone through the report contained in the Bambo ook . Some of us it hurts us because it makes us to remembers the very one at Mapulaneng . Even this report there is someone else who has written it and believes is the authentic one . We can pass good resolutions in tis House . But what was one signed by the Chief Minister won't be cancelled . You should know that . I don't know if this Uys Commission is going to convert what was signed before because the present Cabinet is unable to convert it as the hon . Mr. M.C. Botha has indicated that as the hon . Prime Minister has put a line according to their agreement . This report if it has reached Mr. M.C. Botha and takes it to the Prime Minister of the Republic what are you going to say about it ? Mr. M.C. Botha can say the Chief Minister of Lebowa has signed this report , what are we going to say about ?

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Mr. Speaker this matter has hurt me lot . Even yesterday when we were travelling we reached ga -Mathebe and found them talking about this and that . But I observed this . We went out here going to survey the boundaries of Lebowa and Mapoch . But I was surprised after reaching the place and I found that it seems what we went there for was not in connection with boundaries . We were there to canvass to the Moutse people . Now if the Mapoch people hear about those matters

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Order ! Order ! hon . member the issue on the table is that you should give the Chief Minister advices on how to come out with this question . I think the question of canvassing is out of order . Continue hon . member .

KGOAT T .. MOTHAPO : I thank you Mr. Speaker . I was saying what I was remembering , not what I am u suspecting to other person . The Mapoch issue I understand it in this manner . The hon . Chief Minister has sent the messenger to Mapoch in 1975 to discuss with him the issue of reconciliation . During the time when the messenger was still gone , if happened that the U.P. summoned the Chief Minister and the people of Mapoch to meet in Tollman Hotel . The Chief Minister was surprised to see Mapoch .

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Order ! Ordet ! hon . member the Chair is not strict on you . But you should give us suggestions how to come out of this fact . The story of the U.P. and the other people I think are not relevant to what the Chair wants . That is why the Chair has given you all the day to give us suggestions . If your suggestions have come to an end , tell the Chair . Continue hon . member .

KGOĜI T.J. MOTHAPO : I am still thankful Mr. Speaker . My point the hon . Speaker is that as now the Mapochs are no more interested in talking to us what are we going to discuss with them? We can say they must get to Pretoria but are they going to bring us along ? Thank you .

KGOĜI T.J. MAHLANGU : Thank you Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker yesterday we went to Kgoŝi Mathebe at Moutse and at Matlala's tribe . They asked us who took their land? The reply was that , it is Pretoria . I want to know if the Chief Minister knows that point that Pretoria took the land? I don't know which advice to give for the he has claimed that the Mathebes are deprived of their land by Pretoria . He says they don't move . The point that perturbes me is the one spoken by the Minister of Education . Mr. Moloko is the type of a person who wants to be praised whenever talking . He says the Central Government if it mentions that it is going to remove them it really does .

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It shows me that the Bantwane tribe is going to be removed . Mapoch has been given those lands and the Bambo . He does not fight the Lebowa Government . He never came there to Lebowa to ask for lands . He has been offered them . I don't know why should we worry about him . Thank you . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Hon . members our next speaker will be the hon . M.W. Kgatla . But just before he speaks , I have this announcement to make . You are requested by the Chairman of the Agricultural Advisory Board that you must report here at 9 a.m. sharp . Here it is written in block letters . PLEASE REQUEST THE MEMBERS TO BE HERE ON TIME THE BUSES WILL PUL EXACTLY AT 9.00h . They won't wait for anybody . All those hon . members who are now absent in this Chamber , who are doing their own businesses outside please must know we are leaving at 9.00h . Thank you . MR . M.W. KGATLA : Mr. Speaker I have been listening very carefully since this morning when the members were talking bout the Moutse question . Proclamation No. R224 of 1972 which was passed on the 29th of September 1972 says this about Moutse . In the schedule where they try to show us the areas of Lebowa they say this about Moutse . The areas of the district of Moutse excluding the following farms . In other words this is when they proclaim Moutse as a district but the following farms were excluded . They don't belong to Moutse according to this thing . And we have been trying to check as to whether there is an amendment , to include the farms . But the amendment is not there . Accordingly these farms Magiesvoetskuil , trust farm , Vreedskraal , Kameelriver , Waterval , Pieterskraal , Wolfenskraal , Klipmansdrift , excluding portion seven and eight and Valksfontein . And I believe Valksfontein is one of the farms that we visited yesterday . And according to the constitution of Lebowa of which we have been keeping for the last five years it has just come to light to me that those farms don't belong to Lebowa . Pretoria took some of these farms particularly Valskfontein and handed it over to Mapoch . And this is what we could have read lony and try to query it . I am afraid when we are going to see Pretoria what are we going to tell them because we have been keeping this for the last five years . Last time when we talked about the East , I said seeing that we have rejected the Ramusi map , what did we do to draw our own ? Perhaps they should have included these farms . Nevertheless it is not too late that we look on their map including exactly whatwe want so that we send our land demand to Pretoria . The question of saying we have sent the Cabinet and the Chief Minister to go and tell Pretoria , the people of Moutse did not move , people from there did not move , it is still rediculous and ambiguous . When they will just ask you what are your land demands ? Where is your sketch map that we can almost try to illustrate what you want . I have learnt from reliable information that the Cabinet is in the know t1 that Pretoria has already said , you do'nt own any land in Moutse . And therefore Mr. Speaker Sir I wish to plead right now that if the Cabinet or the Chief Minister have to go and see Pretoria as such he must have valuable information

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showing his demand of the land , showing his map of the territory in which he is the Chief Minister . There was a misdirection to this House and I wanted to correct the anomaly . That is about the Turfloop Comminique . I was present as an interpreter for the two governments , Gazankulu and Lebowa . And the Lebowa Government and the Gazankulu Government never finalized on the boundary question of Mapulaneng . The comminique was only temporary to save the situation which was so explosive down at Mapulaneng that unless we draw a certain temporary line , people are going to fight , kill one another during the Christmas season . It is the former Chief Councillor Kgoŝi M.M. Matlala is being implicated as if he has sold our land . That is not correct . Anybody who wants to check on that , I know there is a file in the Commissioner- General's office . H can go and pull that out and you see the evidence . Mr. Speaker Sir .

KGOŜI M.M. MATLALA : Mг . Speaker we have heard all these matters this today . The main fact is that the Chief Minister has requested to be advised but there is no any .. All what we have said the whole day can be summarized in one word . Please go to Pretoria for us so that boundaries should be well settled . I move that each constituency should go and draw its map and then we come back to this House so that we can give him our maps . Thank you .

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : Hon . House now we have two home works . One on the land issue and the other one on sections of our Rules of Procedure . And before we go any further I shall ask the Chief Minister to make some announcement .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Deputy Speaker and the hon . members . I would like to obey you directlly by making this announcement . I would like very much to obey you to make this announcement as requested . But allow me to make one or two remarks . The first remark is that I have been absent from this House without option . That is why I missed parto of the vital debates that took place here . You will remember that there ia a commission that is to go to the Eas , %to go into the boundary , questions between us and Gazankulu . Now I received an information that they wanted some information urgently . So I had to give an information or arranged that , that information be given . It was necessary for me to consult some of the leaders here including the Minister of Interior . As they were also involved . Su Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir . that was the reason why I was away for some time in the House . I regretted very much . But it was unavoidable . Now secondly I don't know - I have been slistening to this important debate as you know for quite, a time - because I was earnest to try and get to the spirit

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of the members of the Legislative Assembly in so far as this thorny question of our boundaries is concerned . Now I really don't know whether Mr. Deputy Speaker you would like me to react on this matter or you would allow me to react on the matter the next sitting . I would like to get some time to react to the views and to the guidance that I received from the hon . members . If I have to speak on this I am afraid ten minutes will not be sufficient . Could I be allowed to count on an opportunity in due course of time when I can react to the advice .

There is just one more thing . It would take me two minutes to explain . May I have that ? Mr. Deputy Speaker , I am not ashamed of having said something in this book . To give reply , this is my portrait . And I am not ashamed of it . I have got a good reason why I accepted this challange . The Chief Minister's seat is a hot one . It is not a seat where you only have honey . Much of the time there is no honey . There is thorns . Much of the time I have received a challange because this a challange to talk of economics and not of politics . There is a measure , a certain amount of politics in it , but much of it is economics of Lebowa . And I realised the intersections of the map which shows part of the consolidation plan not mine , not yours , but at Pretoria . And having apprecaited the situation I said in conclusion I believe that this publication , this book will serve as a catylist and lead to greater awareness and interest in the immense talk ahead of us . I pointed out all the readers , not only here in this country but the world at large that , that will make us aware of the great problems that are ahead of us . And I am proved right by the proceedings of this House . I make mistakes but this time I didn't make any mistake . There are immense tasks before us . And I would like to say to the world at large that a man who wastes time in groaming a beard with sentimental implication instead of learning cooperation is really no good . You read the hon . members go through this and look at the economic side of it . I am strongly opposed to this consolidation scheme of Pretoria . And I've got very many good reasons . There are economic reasons . There are political reasons I have . There social conditions I have eight . Mr. Deputy Speaker . There are merchantory reasons which I have . And for these various reasons I am opposed to this kind of arrangement . And let me not hear that I have been a party to this thing . Only the uninitiated , the ignorant and the unwise will believe that sort of story . And I am very sure you want to give assurance that there are immense tasks that are ahead of us . I'll have occasion perhaps in due course of time Mr. Deputy Speaker to elaborate some of these things . As you graciously give me with regards to the function that is organized by the Department of Agriculture . I am moving an unopposed motion that this House adjourn the whole day tomorrow until a day after tomorrow the 29th to afford the hon . members the opportunity of participating in the plant . Mr. Deputy Speaker Sir . THE DEPUTY SPEAKER : On that note this House should adjourn until Friday morning at 9.00h sharp . THE HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 17h00

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1977 :

FRIDAY APRIL THE 29TH

THE SITTING COMMENCES AT 9h00 . THE SPEAKER READS A PRAYER . KGOŠI J. MAHLANGU , SECONDED BY MR M.W. KGATLA , MOVED THAT THE MINUTES BE ADOPTED .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker , Sir , and the hon . members , there is a brief message . The honourable members will recall that we announced the unfortunate death of the late Lekalakala few days ago . He will be laid to rest tomorrow at 10h00 at Mahwelereng . I hope that most of the M.P.'s will accompany the late Lekalakala on that last trip . This is a very brief announcement , Mr Speaker , I think a day before yester I had a interview with the magoši and some of the leaders from the East . I promised to supply them with some information regarding the boundaries and the Commission of Inquiry . I mean Mapulaneng , Naphuno , Phalaborwa , Bolobedu and Sekgosese . I would like to meet the representatives again shortly after the close of the proceedings here this morning so as to supply them with the additional information they wanted . THE MINISTER OF WORKS : Mr Speaker , concerning the burial of the late Lekalakala , I would like to add that there will be two mini- buses leaving from Seshego at 9h00 and one leaving from Lebowakgomo at 9h00 for Mahwe lereng to pay the last respects to our late brother . Thank you! THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr Speaker , Sir , I have a little announcement to make here . It is with pleasure , Mr Speaker , that I have to give a brief report about the team that represented Lebowa at Amanzimtoti Stadium at Adam's college in Natal . Lebowa was represented by 38 athletes from our high schools and the colleges and Provinces competing were Ciskei Eastern province , East Rand , Gazankulu , Kwa- Zulu , Lebowa , Vaal Triangle , Vendaland and Qwaqwa . Lebowa athletes won all trophies that they competed for . That is , the aggregate winners were Lebowans . The girl section winners were Lebowans and then the victor Ludorum was won by Lebowa's certain George Mehale from Setotolwane and girls section was won by Alice Malokane of Mamokgalake Chuene . And Lebowa collected 29 medals - 14 being for first positions , 10 second positions , 4 - third positions and 14 medals and 10 silver medals and 4 brass medals . Thank you , Mr Speaker , Sir . THE SPEAKER :

We shall go to item eight .

MR M.W. KGATLA :

I only request to speak .

THE SPEAKER : Order ! Item 8 belong to the Speaker , it is not yours . Wait for me first . Let me advise members that if they have anything to say in Parliament , they should first discuss it with me while we are outside . Let us hear what you have . MR M.W. KGATLA : I think I have learnt the Rules of Procedure for quite a long time . The Chief Minister has said that he wanted to see me and the representatives from the East immediately after the closure . It is requested that the Chief Minister withhold it until Monday because almost half the people from the East are still in the East as we are speaking now . We don't know with whom he would

330 like to discuss .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker , I think I will meet the few that are present because it is a very urgent information . And for those who are not here of course we will hold back the information until Monday . THE MINISTER OF WORKS : Mr Speaker , Sir, I have few answers . You will remember that I promised to give you information as regards how we supply the vehicles . These vehicles allocated are marked in such a way that members are able to know from which Department the vehicle comes . That may eliminate careless handling of vehicles . Members may take out their pens in order to write . Vehicles allocated to various Departments are identified as follows : Vehicles allocated to the Chief Minister and Finance are marked with a grey colour on both sides and infront and the Department has twelve vehicles . The Department of Interior has twenty-four vehicles which are marked with a white colour on the bumper and a white stripe on both sides . The Department of Education which has seventy vehicles , has vehicles with blue stripes on both sides and in front , on the bumper . The Department of Works with 288 vehicles has vehicles with a brown mark on the bumper in front and on both sides . The Department of Agriculture with 335 vehicles have green colours on the front bumper both sides and behind . The Department of Justice has vehicles with black stripes on the front bumper and both sides of the bumper . The Department of Health has 191 vehicles with red cross on the bumper and behind . There is the information , hon . members and if you don't understand , I shall still make everything clear for the House . MR M.W. KGATLA : A follow up , Mr Chairman . Mr Chairman , we are not trying to antagonise the department here . If you see all the G.G. vehicles of South African Republic , They are not identified as the Minister of Works is trying to identify our cars here . It is just a G.G. car whether it is Health or Education it remains a G.G. car . And as such we vehemently and reluctantly accept what he has been telling us here . If all our vehicles are L.G. they are all registered . We have the registers and if a car is missing , we are not interested in finding out whether the car belongs to Education or Health . The thing is that they all belong to Lebowa ; we are interested in them all . The man controlling the cars will tell us that L.G. 12 belongs to Education when we are carrying out an investigation . You are antagonising yourself if you are not careful . And that is not in the interest of our progress . All cars are under Works only . When you get the number you will investigate departmentally which Department is missing its vehicles . Go and think over how to run your Department . We don't want those colours . THE MINISTER OF WORKS : Mr Speaker and the hon . House , I gathered this information after a request from one member of this Hon . House and not all members . Those who are not interested in them should also not participate in them . I shall hand over the information to the members concerned and I would not throw them away . Tomorrow you will request me to construct a bridge or a dam and after I have done so , you will be saying that it was not necessary for him to have built a bridge there , we could cross without it .

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KGOSI A.S. MOLEPO : Mr Speaker , the Minister of Works brought the long required information . We cannot cancel what we requested and this was done after the Department concerned has experienced much problems . The Department of Works has enlightened us of the numbers of vehicles allotted to each Department and how to know them in case one needs to know to which Department a vehicle belongs . MR M.W. KGATLA :

THE SPEAKER :

Point of order , Mr Speaker .

Point of order granted .

MR M.W. KGATLA : My point of order is that the hon . Mr Kwakwa asked this question : "At 2h00 some times back I found a car at a Motel" He only wanted to know whether cars are working during the course of the night e.g. 12h00 or 3h00 . He never wanted colours . The Minister said I will give you different colours but he fails to control them . THE SPEAKER : out of order .

Order!

Order .

The hon . member is not

KGOŠI A.S. MOLEPO : We must know our cars in accordance with Departments . The hon . Kgatla should not tell us of Central Government . We are concerned with our Lebowa and we must know the cars so that in future when our car is involved in an accident we should know to which Department it belongs . It will thus be easy . I should appreciate the splendid task done by our Minister of Works . He who refuses these , is not normal . ( INTERJECTIONS ) THE SPEAKER : Order ! Order! It is said that if the questioner is not out of this House , we don't go further with his question . In other words if it is the hon . Kwakwa who has put across the question and he is not present , we thus leave out his question unless he has sent somebody to represent him . The Hon . Kgatla objects that a member has insulted him . MR M.W. KGATLA : Mr Speaker , I was insulted by the hon . Kgosi Molepo . He said anyone who is refusing what the Minister of Works is saying now is mad . I kindly request the hon. Kgosi to withdraw before I say something . → .

THE SPEAKER : Order! Order ! No threat please , hon . Kgoši Molepo . He says you said he is mad . What is your opinion? KGOŠI A.S. MOLEPO :

I withdraw, Mr Speaker .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker , I have a very simple question here . The hon . House will remember that I couldn't distinguish between ntona and rammotwana and Hon . E.D. Mabotja of Seshego has given a recent information . I cannot say whether it is correct or incorrect . He says the Ntona is installed by the kgoši and the tribe . The assistant headman is rammotwana . He is enthroned by the ntona with the permission of the particular tribe . I then proceed to the next ones . I have two questions from Kgosi Mashegoane here . One says : Since you became a Chief Minister which African independent states have you ever visited? I visited

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only one and this is Swaziland . Before I was a Chief Minister I visited Nigeria . I have standing invitation from Ivory Coast . It is not finalised yet . And I would like to visit as many of the independent black states as possible , but the heads of the various states through the Organisation of African Unity are not favourably disposed towards us . We have been battling over months to go to malawi . There is no refusal , only that it is receiving attention . The second question is : What is the attitude of African States you have visited towards Lebowa as a Homeland? I don't want to generalise this matter , but the fact that Swaziland has spoken to me satisfied me that their attitutde was friendly ,, . Before a Civil commotion in Nigeria , I was warmly received by the States of the Federal Government . I actually had a chat with Sir Balewee before he was assassinated in the civil commotion . There were others who were interested in discussing matters of common interest with me and I welcomed their attitutde . As far as Ivory Coast is concerned , I am speaking in terms of Dona Follogo , I am looking forward for his visit . No , I am looking forward to my going over there and not his coming here . I would like to cultivate a friendship not neighbourly sort of things .

KGOŠI T. MASHEGOANE : I realised from the Chief Minister that there are some problems which stop him from visiting other homelands . I don't know whether he is referring to problema concerning us or somebody else . We want to see our black Amin paying us a visit here . We wish to see our Chief Minister paying visit to Dr. Kenneth Kaunda , he will tell him something concerning his culture . Everytime when you pay a visit you touch overseas countries such as America . MR S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr Speaker , I had something to explain to the Minister of Works regarding my questions , but I was not accorded time by then . I would like to inform the MInister of Works that it is true that all questions on papers piled there were directives . I personally posed questions that I expected him to reply . He is , by so doing , avoiding to answer questions .

THE SPEAKER :

Order !

MR S.S. MOTHAPO :

Order!

Am I out of order?

THE SPEAKER : Yes You should only say why does he not answer to your question . Hon . Kgoši Mashegoane shall sit down and the hon . Kgoši Mathabatha shall keep quiet . THE MINISTER OF WORKS : I have some of the questions by the members here . They are from the Bolobedu . How many houses are allocated to Kgapane Township? What I'll tell him here is what has been handed to me . He must know that my Department is not responsible for the building of Townships . I only build and go and I don't know what happens thereafter . I am only told that I should build twenty houses at Kgapane . The second question reads :

discussed my What happened to our telephone requests when intentions to visit you regarding the roads because you've promised to come ? Why didn't you come? Give reasons of your failure .

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The reply is that after spending the whole day with the questioner at Modjadji , showing me the whole Modjadji landscape , he took me to Duiwelskloof Hotel where he bought me meals , and I slept there . We agreed that the Modjadji area was too big and we could not cover it in one day only . We agreed that when there is time I should come again . Unfortunately I never got the opportunity of going to Modjadji again . We shall see how to come out this year .

The third question reads : Will your Department consult us before the erection of the Agricultural offices which are said to be erected in our area? The answer is : We only built for other Departments on their requests . The question is for the Department of Agriculture . They told me that I should erect it at Ga-Kgapane but I don't know where at Kgapane . If they show me I will not ask them whether they got permission from the Chief of the Area to erect but only to erect and go away .

The fourth one : How many tipper trucks are allocated to your Department and how many has each district got? This will help several members in this House . Vehicles are not specifically allocated to districts but to working team requirements . Road section has 25 vehicles . Building section has 6 vehicles and Water section has got 5 vehicles . The fifth question : How do you do your allocation of vehicles at each district? Is it done according to the area with many roads or mountains ? The reply is : According to the work programme for which money was noted . The sixth question : How do as far as their approach to is : Seconded officials are in the homelands . If he is to his Government .

you control your seconded officials the public is concerned? The answer given induction training for duties not well trained we send him back

The seventh question : Why are labourers working for your Department not paid their sleep out allowances? This , we discussed at length last year . All employees are paid subsistence allowances costs strictly according to personnel regulations . This is our present stand point . The eighth question : When is your department completing the sports ground at Masalanabo school next to Modjadji's kraal? There is the reply : This is a request for additional work and the hon . member should not think we are refusing because there is no more money for maintenance . The ninth question : When will you be visiting Bolobedu district as you failed to do so last year? THE SPEAKER : recently replied .

Order!

Order !

This question has been

THE MINISTER OF WORKS : When is your Department completing the tar road properly? I made it clear in my Policy Speech how I am going to do it. Another one deals with the erection of Ga-kgapane Stadium and reads thus : When is your Department going to complete it? It falls under additional work and it will be considered . other questions were put forward by Kgoši Nkadimeng but now that he is not present I will not reply them .

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for your protection because they want to kick away what I am trying to clarify .

THE SPEAKER :

You are protected .

MR L.M. MADISHA : Thank you . The two people are not paid because the house is unable to distinguish the difference THE SPEAKER : Order! Order ! Narrate your story steady and we are listening to you to give the difference between ntona and rammotwana and you forget about their being not paid . MR L.M. MADISHA: paid . ( INTERJECTIONS )

My point is that the ntona must be

MR S.S. MOTHAPO : Point of order , Mr Speaker . I am getting a little bit worried , Mr Speaker . There are quite a number of questions which have been raised and members want to make an immediate follow up but the Speaker creates inconviniences in that he is still having his list of people who are to speak . The people who are supposed to speak on the issue are deprived of the opportunity to speak . Mr Speaker , all what I want to say is that if it is the day of qeustions , let people be given the opportunity to make their follow- ups . THE SPEAKER :

The Speaker is not out of order .

MR E.D. MABOTJA : I just want to make a follow- up on what the Chief Minister has said concerning the sequence of a kgoši , ntona and rammotwana . A kgoši is born in a royal family , ntona is enthroned by the kgoši . Rammotwana is installed by the ntona if he has many people e.g. Mmoto wa Perekisi as a whole is under the control of bo- rammotwana . They are many e.g. Ranoto , Mabotja , Mokgokong . They are all bo - rammotwana under Копаре . Therefore Ntona is a senior to rammotwana and rammc twana is appointed by the ntona to help him in controlling the area in case the population is growing bigger .

KGOŠI P.S. PHASHA : I want to clarify the issue brought forward by Mr Madisha . Mr Madisha paid that due to squabbles , one kgoši left his kraal for another kgoši's kraal where he was appointed the ntona or rammotwana . This is against the Sotho culture , for one kgoši cannot be made a servant of another . The only thing he could do , is to offer that kgoši a land where to stay with his subjects and graze their stock . That is what I want to clarify , Mr Speaker . THE SPEAKER : Hon . members , it seems we are discussing the internal arrangements of the various tribes . Let us discuss something that affects the whole House , by so saying we leave this topic . MR S.H. NKADIMENG : Thank you , Mr Speaker . I asked the Chief Minister a few questions , but he didn't reply to some of them that is why I stood up . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker , I don't know that I have to answer his questions . I think he should remind me which questions are those.

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MR H.M. MODJADJI : All the questions I brought forward have been replied but one thing I would like to know is in connection with the Sports ground at Masalanabo . They are the people who started the ground but they have not completed it yet . I would like to know as to whether they will ever come to complete it . The reply given does not satisfy me . On the second question it is true that the Minister once came to my area and we agreed that he would shortly come back . My question is what made you not to come back as per agreement? We have been promised that he will visit us and we should not visit him, but he does not visit us and he does not even respond . Thank you !

KGOŠI M.M. MATHABATHA : I am after the question which I put across . I would like to know who is responsible for the road leaving the tarred road to the Downs because the road is very much neglected . It is difficult to drive along it . I would like to know who is responsible for the road? KGOŠI E.M. MOGASHOA : I am satisfied to hear that all vehicles are identified according to Departments . MR L.M. MADISHA : Thanks , Mr Speaker . I am sorry that I could not persue the question in connection with rammotwana the day before yesterday and I would like to follow it up now. To my knowledge , during the time of war some people ran away with other tribes . Where they originated they were dikgoši , by paying allegiance to another kgoši they were made the ntonas because they had no land . The land belonged to the kgoši to whom he owes allegiance; therefore , ntona is like a kgoši .

KGOŠI M.J. MAHLANGU: Point of order , Mr Speaker . I don't see any difference between rammotwana and ntona . Ntona is a Zulu terminology and rammotwana is a Pedi terminology . Don't you know in your language what rammotwana is? THE SPEAKER :

Order !

Order! Mr Madisha may go on.

MR L.M. MADISHA : I have already given an explanation about Ntona and I will come to rammotwana . When the tribe grows , the kgoši nominates one man who has been staying there for a long time to look after the portion of his land . He is rammotwana . MR M.W. KGATLA : un a point of order , Mr Speaker . My point of order , Mr Speaker is this that the questioner knows exactly what is the difference between rammotwana and indoena . Why should he ask the Chief Minister because he knows? His question falls out because he knows that . Rule him out ! MR L.C. MOTHIBA : Thank you , Mr Speaker . I find it obligatory to ask this because on the Chief Minister's financial statement there are moneys given to the ntona's and to rammotwana . From my knowledge of ntona and rammotwana both don't get paid . That is why I would like to know these . I discovered that the Chief Minister spoke out of ignorance of the whole system .

KGOSIM.J . MAHLANGU : We heard that only three ntona's are paid and if ever they are paid why are they paid? That is my point of order . THE SPEAKER : Continue please .

Order!

MR L.M. MADISHA :

Hon . member is not out of order .

Thank you , Mr Speaker .

I am appealing

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MR S.H. NKADIMENG : As you see the Sekhukhuneland is densely populated , how do you think we can get ourselves well established? The second question is how far are you with the land authority of Marota-Marulaneng issue? The third one was asked by Kgoši Nkadimeng . THE SPEAKER : questions only .

Order !

Order !

Bring forward your

THE MINISTER OF WORKS : The hon . member Kgoši Nkadimeng is now present . May I please reply to his questions .

MR L.C. MOTHIBA: THE SPEAKER :

Point of order!

Point of order granted .

MR L.C. MOTHIBA : Thank you , Mr Speaker , according to Rules of Procedure if the Minister is ready to answer a question and a member who asked the question is not present during that time , then the question lapses . It will remain for the member who asked the question to re - direct it to the Minister and not that the Minister should remind the member . MR M. MOLOTO : Mr Speaker, I will have to speak louder because my voice is hoarse . THE SPEAKER : Come nearer , for your voice is low , so that you can be heard . MR M. MOLOTO : I am now speaking audibly . I am speaking in terms of rammotwana but I will not spend much time thereon . (Interjections ) THE SPEAKER :

Order !

Order !

We have already handled

that . MR M. MOLOTO :

Have we handled it?

THE SPEAKER :

Bring another topic .

MR M. MOLOTO : I have not replied . it although it is not straightened . THE SPEAKER :

You have passed

We have no more questions .

THE MINISTER OF WORKS : I have yet another question to reply which was brought forward by the member from Thabamoopo . It is with regard to the dam at GaMolepo which was long under erection and we don't know when it will be completed . The cause of slowliness in the project is that there is no money and its completion will be determined by the availability of funds . There are still other dams at Mothapo which need improvement but there is still no money . However, this belongs to the Department of Agriculture and Forestry . Another question deals with the erection of bridges at Ga-Molepo and Ga-Mamabolo . The answer is that at present there are no funds .

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MR G.T. MATHEBE : Thank you , Mr Speaker , I think I asked a question the day before yesterday to the Minister of Works . It is not a difficult question that may take such a long time . I heard that vehicles of your Department are subsidized . I want to know the procedure in the whole set up . How many have already succeeded through this procedure? State the number of blacks and whites . How does a person qualify in order to get a subsidised vehicle? THE MINISTER OF WORKS : Mr Speaker , I had several questions . Members make mistakes by writing their questions on pieces of papers which easily get lost . It has got lost ; will the member write another one . THE SPEAKER : Hon . Minister of Works , you have been asked a question and you should reply to the question . THE MINISTER OF WORKS :

I will investigate the matter .

COMMITTEE STAGE .

THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . members , the House is in Committee . We shall continue asking questions on Vote 4 which is Education . MR S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr Chairman , on a point of order . I would like to know from you as to when are you going to treat the land issue which we left behind on Monday when we adjourned . We were on the question of Benbo report . Amongst those who were still intending to speak was the Chief Minister of the territory . MR M.W. KGATLA : Mr Chairman , Sir , the Chief Minister couldn't speak in 10 minutes . We shall allocate him enough time to talk about that . We continue with Education vote now.

THE CHAIRMAN : I think the hon . member is correct . The Chair gave you the whole day up to five o'clock and the Chair promised the Chief Minister to reply that on Monday . Let us continue hon . members . Are there still some more questions on Education? KGOŠI M.J. MAHLANGU : Mr Chairman , I want to know from the Minister of Education whether the money which I used from September up to now to build 53 classes is not going to be subsidized on rand for rand basis since you have said there is no money . Am I forfeiting the amount? I want to know when to get the money? You told us last year that we should continue building and you will subsidize us on rand for rand basis . We have built and we have filled in the claim forms , but there is no response . Thank you! MR M.G. MATHEBE : I have only two questions to ask the Minister of Education . I heard him saying in his Policy Speech that even the teachers who have recently completed their teacher's course are not in the position to get vacancies . I also realised that these teachers who have recently completed their teachers ' course are forced to sign a contract of teaching for two years . I want to know what happens in the case where the Government is unable to offer them a teaching post? My second question concerns

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Elandsdoorn Township where the residents build schools for themselves . Already they have build a Lower Primary School and presently they are busy building a High School . I know that in all townships the Lebowa Government builds schools , but what about this Township? Does it fall under community schools because the community has build for itself? In other words I want to know whether they are going to claim on rand for rand basis . I need full clarification as to why those people build for themselves whereas the other townships do not . Thank you, Mr Chairman . MR A.S. MAHLAGNU: Mr Chairman I don't have too many questions since I realised that money is our problem . Last time I requested permission to build our own training college at Mahlangu . We were told that training school is expensive to build and the Community cannot afford building it . Our children who learn Zulu failed to get accommodation at Motetema and we took them somewhere where Zulu is offered . This worries us too much . , because we are taught Zulu and talk Zulu here in . Lebowa . Our children are now outside Lebowa . By now we should have built ten or twenty classrooms with our own money and not yours . This House is standing on our way . Why should you stand in our way when we use our money? Are you still abiding by your previous decision of refusing us from building schools this year? You should set us free to do our own things . You are bankrupt and you cannot even afford to pay teachers . THE CHAIRMAN : until Monday at 10h00 .

On that note this House shall adjourn

THE HOUSE ADJOURNS AT 11h00

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1977 MONDAY MAY THE 2ND. COMMENCEMENT . The sitting commences at 10.30 a.m. The Speaker reads a Prayer .

ADOPTION OF THE MINUTES . MR. S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr. Speaker I move that the minutes be adopted as the correct record of this House . MR . S.H. NKADIMENG :

I second him .

ANNOUNCEMENTS . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Speaker Sir , if I could grave your indulgence Sir , to make a very brief announcement with your permission . May I with your indulgence Mr. Speaker , inform the honourable House that many of the MP's from the East may come late today as they are busy making arrangements with the various magistrates in connection with the contemplated visits of the Commission of Investigation into the boundary question . They are in fact on duty . They are not just going around having a nice time . So I thought it was absolutely fit and proper that their temporary absence should be understood . THE SPEAKER : Honourable members , we had all along Resolution Committees . We discussed and resolved on certain matters but there is no follow- up as there are no Resolution Committees . I think it is time that we consider the importance of having Resolution Committees . I think this House should take this matter seriously and have it brought to a finality .

MR . S.S. MOTHAPO: Mr. Speaker , last time there were only two of us in the Resolution Committee for this House viz myself and Mr. Tlaka . I think we should have additional members to make three so that in the absence of one , the third one may be able to assist . Thank you Mr. Speaker .

THE SPEAKER : This will not be difficult as it is within the limit of your regulation as long as the number does not exceed five . I shall be glad if you can bring me the names of the people you want tomorrow . NOTICES OF MOTIONS . MR . I.K. MALEBANA: Mr. Speaker , I give notice that tomorrow I will move the motion to the effect that unmarried lady teachers , widows and divorcees be given accouchement leave . KGOĜI P. NKADIMENG : Mr. Speaker , I will move the motion to the effect that the word " bantu " be replaced by "black " MR . S.P. KWAKWA : On a point of order Mr. Speaker , I would say it is a little difficult at this stage to replace " bantu " with "blacks " .

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Because our education system is till part and parcel of Bantu Education . We follow the Bantu Education syllabuses and our children write Bantu Education examinations . As it is , we do not refer our Education in Lebowa as Bantu Education but just Education Department . The trouble is that we are still tied up with the Bantu Education because there was this agreement that for purposes of maintaining high standards and keeping things on the same level , we should continue to follow the syllabuses prescribed by Bantu Education and write examinations set by Bantu Education . Therefore the certificates of our children will alwasys come from Bantu Education . THE SPEAKER :

Order !

Order !

MR . S.S. MOT HAPO : On a point of order Mr. Speaker , the honourable member in the first place used his point of order as a pretext for debate . The honourable member is out of order in that it was a notice of the motion and not a motion : It was only under the debate that he could bring it up. THE SPEAKER: The honourable member from Mokerong was not out of order , he was quite right . I do not allow him anymore . I would like to advise the honourable members that there should be no interruptions when the chair gives comments. You have enough chance to speak on a point of order.

KGOŠI T.J. MOTHAPO: Mr. Speaker , I gave notice of the motion that magoŝi should be salaried , I do not see the motion on the program .

THE SPEAKER : The honourable member is understood . However he should consult the leader of the House and if he fails , you may refer it to the House . Thank you . We shall go into the Committee stage . COMMITTEE STAGE : LEBOWA APPROPRIATION BILL 1977 . THE CHAIRMAN : in committee .

Honourable members the House is now

MR . N.S. MASHIANE : Mr. Chairman when we closed on Friday I was still speaking I even told the Chair that I will resume the discussion on Monday when we open . THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable member that is univited . We didn't make a promise . However we shall call upon the honourable A.S. Mahlangu .

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MR . A.S. MAHLANGU: I was on the question concerning Department of Education . We are confronted by the fact that there is no money and we were refused to build on our last year . Were it not due to the fact that last year we were refused to build , we should have build ourselves thirty rooms for a training college at Ga - Mahlangu . Our progress should not be impeded by the fact that you don't have money . At Moganyaka there is a lower primary school a high school but there is no secondary school . Some of the primary school children attend classes under a tree . I am appealing to the Department of Education to allow us to build and by so doing we shall be assisting our poor Lebowa . The teachers are also not receiving the salaries properly . At home eight teachers have since last year not received their salaries . We shall take the money which is to be used for building the houses of Ministers at Lebowakgomo to build and help the children . If you don't pay our teachers , they will leave us for other places . We build 53 class rooms last year and we are to be paid rand for rand subsidy . Thank you .

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr. Chairman , I think I have listened to quite a number of questions . These questions are in essence the same . There is an acknowledgement that there is no money . All the members who stood up here , have shown their acknowledgement of the fact that there is no money although we need several things . Do they think there is any source where I can get money? The questions I am having are similar to those of last year . Last year I was asked if I were present when the budget was made and I told them that I was not present . I was told correct because when I became a Minister the budget had already been made . This year I personally prepared it including the speech . Last year I realised what you wanted and I took all your 1976 needs to the Department which allocates money . I needed R1 796 228 000 for the teachers , for desks I needed R3 , million , R188 548 00 was used to buy benches for every school . Last year over R3 , million was needed . For books in 1976 R2 206 048 was needed . We had R944 900 which was used for 1975 outstanding requets of rand for rand subsidies . Only the old requests enjoyed priority , the rest were not with and consequently we have several outstanding claims which the honourable Adries Mahlnagu is speaking of. We had catered R1 960 000 for laboratories last year . There was no money with the result that our needs axceeded the money budgeted for last year . We wanted R11 229 724. It is now this year that we need money for fuilfilling the outstanding claims

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I requested you to give me money last year to do all the duties . Although the honourable Andries Mahlangu acknowledges that he knows that there is no money. He still claims that he is refused money . He and other members want to bring the impression to the outside world that the Minister of Education does not do his duties thoroughly or are you whiling away time . We are only the paying office and the 20% increase of teachers salary will still create more problems . Lebowa alone will fail to give increment of salary to its people because others have already given increment to their teachers . The honourable Andries Mahlangu , I am still concerned about what you said in connection with the building of Ministerial houses at Lebowakgomo , while children don't receive education . It is true that seven houses will be built at R61 000 each . This is your priority . You give me an impression in this House that you are more interested in educational matters than in anything but your words bear no fruits. From the estimates you could see that you still owe R17 million . Next year my colleague will still be in need of 17 million to complete what he alarted this year. My colleague plainly told you the other day that he needs 200 artisans and if they are not available , he will resort to outside contractors . Who should provide you with artisans except the Department of Education ? Already he mentioned that he has approached outside contractors to take Lebowa's money as Lebowa has no experts . It is my Department which must teach these people the work at appropriate schools , but this Department is interested in undertakings which are without progress . It will not pay as to have marvellous roads , airoplanes , ships and big and beautiful cities which are done by inviting private contractors . Can't we conceive our own children? There is something wrong here in that we placed our priority at a wrong spot which will not build us a good name . You neglect building a human potential and then you blame me when you don't provide funds for developing progress and potential human . Other nations will progress whereas your children will remain undeveloped . Therefore , I make a sincere appeal to you , that in matters of this nature , you should give advices so that money can be allocated for these . The Chief Minister and myself are by all means trying to get people who can help us so that we can save money and prosper in the educational sphere . It is through the attempts of the Chief Minister that we have trade schools like Sir Duncan and Barlows today. Presently he is negotiating with outside companies for financial assistance in order that we should build a trade school at Bushbuckridge . We have already made our requests with Ferrochrome and they build a very beautiful school for us.

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The school is only running short of benches , teachers , books but there is no money and we have only R100 . Mr. Mahlangu asks to build a Training College at his area since presently the Government has no money . To be straightforward , the tribe will only manage to erect a weak structure and complete the roofing with rusted corrugated irons . The standard will not be equivalent to that of a Training College which is going to produce teachers or future leaders and not weak people . According to what is said here , twenty rooms could have been built although I am not against that equipments such as benches , books teachers and other necessities will not be available because there is no money. In connection with colleges , I take it upon myself as my responisbilty to put colleges . It should not be the responsibility of the community . I discourage the idea of giving the responsibility of building schools to the community as community schools , although this has been in force years before I was made a Minister . It will not be wise to say people who are in the rural areas who are employed should build schools for themselves while people who are in the townhsips benefiting from their employment are provided by building schools for them . Why is there no community schools in the areas of those people who introduced community schools? I think we should not support the idea of community schools because we don't know where it is leading us to but all schools should belong to the government . If community schools are abolished , even the poor villagers will benefit . This is left for the House . I want to go further. The honourable Kgoŝi Mothapo will forgive me as the questions that he directed to me will not be replied in this House . They are administrative because it concerns the suspension of certain teachers . The question will only be replied if he comes to my office as it concerns the life and behaviour of other people. The honourable S.S. Mothapo says with your multiple needs of your Department known to this honourable House is this really what you budgeted for? Did you submit your estimates as such or someone decided for you to receive ? I have already stated that I was personally involved in the preparations of the budget this year , so don't complain . The financial schedule which I sent here was only added by % of what I had last year . After that I was ordered to subtract uy 2 and half percent and it was just difficult . In connection with budget , Pretoria sends us money thereafter the money is shared to each Department . If the money is not sufficient we send the Secretary to the power that be who says he cannot do anything beyond that . What else can we do? It is the Administration which distributes the finance .

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This is the reply to your question and the circulation of the budgeting system . The Department takes its allocation and distributes it in accordance with the various needs . After that has been done a full report is brought to you in this House and you blame us . I am now requesting the honourable members to offer me the opportunity of replying to their questions and thereafter they may ask me questions .

So dissatisfied I was that , I approached the head of administration to tell him that I am not satisfied with the set-up but he said it is the power that be which has so decided . We must just leave the thing as it is . Much money is used for other priorities rather than helping to uplift the educational standard in Lebowa so that we should have useful production in Lebowa children . The Cabinet is only told that there is so much money and you can use it for this purpose . For the purpose of buying books at our schools , we need the sum of R2 206 048 as I indicated If money is not available we couldn't do otherwise . Since money is not available , the money which will be used will only function this year and not next year . There is no money for buying text books maps and chalks . Lebowa has got money but the money is being wrongly used . To build a new township is not as important as educating our children . Last year when I said that there is no money , the House said that it was going to loan money for building purposes. The House is glad to use only R3 million at Lebowakgomo . It is less concerned about the education of Lebowa children . As it is now , it is said that audio visual aids and other things will be costing R200 and this means another expenditure . The amount allocated for rand for rand for the erection of community schools is so little and this is drawn back to our education . I agree with you . The fifth question . What is your Department doing to rid off the unsuitable and lowly qualified teachers from the secondary schools? These teachers are a detriment to the students in that they do not have the real knowledge of how to teach in secondary schools . I don't think there is a better and more truthful statement than this and I am not happy teaching our children to see unqualified teachers in the secondary schools .

Until last year we had money which we used for refreshers course where we taught teachers what they didn't know and this year we have stopped it because we don't have funds . Those teachers will continue to teach without the backround . It is my opinion that several colleges should be erected in order to educate OUI ; children accordingly .

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In our Department we have already planned for two extra training schools with JSTC but the plan is till on paper . There are several Junior Secondary Schools where teachers with low qualifications are teaching but we have no alternative as there are no grants . These teachers still belong to Primary Schools . We took them from Primary School so that they can teach Form I. It was difficult to get a privately paid teachers as it will cost extra funds. As there are no grants , their stay at the Secondary Schools is indefinite . In fact , when I discussed the matter with my co- workers , they were so worried that they asked me whether I could not see that there was a problem ahead which was going to affect the J.C. results the following year? What can I do? If there are poor matric and they will be unable to persue pre matric classes because of poor foundation . it is for this mouse to advise the right priorities in such cases . What is your Department doing in order to accommodate more students in the boarding schools? Recently we are having very few high schools . The House should be aware that prize of commodities and food has been risen up and children as well need better food . We have got private schools which are catering for Lebowa which I wanted to help but I cannot because there is no money . Yesterday I was at Pax and Doornspruit . They say they are intending to close because the teachers who are there are to retire but there is no money to send over new ones . Should we give them teachers , then they will easily continue . If the House is in the position to help me with funds to give to those schools grants viz Pax , Glen Cowie and Doornspruit because they are in the position to produce 100% pass in Matric . Can we tolerate to loose such schools ? As it is now , we would like to give more allowances to all schools but we don't have money. Before I come to the end of the question asked by Honourable Mothapo I want to remove the impression given to you on the opening day of our Parliament by Mr. Cruywagen that education has been allocated much money. That is not true . After the delivering of his speech , I went to ask him where he got the matter from? I therefore realised that the speech he read was not fium Pretoria but a local speech as some people told me that education gets more money . Honourable members I told him already that after deducting the salary I only remain with R1million . Can you give more money? We want R12million . His reply was " Ek is 'n kort broekie Mini ter ek kan nie geld gee nie " . That education is allotted enought money , is something he took from here . To sum up Mr. Mothapo's question , we are having the Department of Finance with its administrative heads . He is the deciding factor regarding our needs .

MR. S.5 . MOTHAPO :

On a

point of order Mr. Chairman .

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THE CHAIRMAN : Honourable member , I will give you chance . Give the honourable the Minister chance .

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : They say that at Motetema the Zulu speaking pupils are refused admission , is unfounded and I would like this House to note that . Lebowa does not discriminate anybody . The questioner has once brought his question when we were at Nebo and I requested him to furnish me with the names of the pupils who were refused admission of the fact that they are Zulus so that I can take the names with me when I go for inquiries . Until now I am still waiting to be furnished with the names of the students so that I can follow up the matter . In the speech , I said last year we had more than 2,200 students who started teaching this year. I said that they see who will be absorbed in the newly created and vacant posts will be boo in number . There are 471 newly created posts while we have just 1,333 posts . The teachers who have just completed will thus leave us with sorrow since we don't have vacancies . I even referred this matter in the conference of the ruling party since the matter is giving a problem . Something has been said about Moganyaka and Elandsdoorn schools . I learned at Elandsdoorn they are busy building and the question says will they be paid rand for rand " ? In every township , the responsibility of building is within the Department . The schools appear on the plans . When they come to plots which are choosen for building schools , they should build because the people who are going to be settled in those houses have children who should go to school . The reason why schools are not build , is not clear to me . In every school built by the tribe , we are compelled to pay rand for rand subsidy. The question is similar to the one by the honourable Madisha . I told the House that we are owing close to Amillion for rand for rand subsidy . This includes schools erected in 1974 and 1975 respectively and I don't include schools built by the honourable Mr. Mahlangu this year . I told my Department to write every request in sequence so that we can settle all the 1975 accounts and thereafter concentrate on the 1976. If we are running short of money then we stop and we shall continue next time . Unless there is money , it will take us ten years before we settle our yearly accounts . If those who send you to this House ask you why you don't pay these accounts , tell them that you have failed to give the Minister of Education money. The honourable Nkadimeng asks as follows: why students certificates are still being issued by the Department of Bantu Education in Pretoria while your government has promulgated an Education Actoria

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Are we still following that rejected Bantu Education system? In Pretoria pleased to enforce the Policy of Separate Development? This is a strange question . I hope if I give a reply to the question , the honourable member will not repeat this question even next year . The Honourable Mr. Kwakwa has replied this question although he did not mean to do so . The honourable kgoŝi Nkadimeng and myself , have found that Bantu Education system is followed by this House when we join . There is an agreement which is till standing that Bantu Education will look after our syllabuses and Examinations . In order that our children should write our examinations , we should have our examination Board . We should have different Boards and Committees responsible for establishing the syllabuses . The very people should have broad knowledge in their respective subjects and Pretoria must not force us to write their examination . We can have our own experts taking charge of our examinations , but their standards should be acceptable to the Joint Matriculation Board . Those experts will need money which are unable to yield presently in this Department . The committees will therefore not work for nothing . Therefore I say one should be sincere in asking questions . People demand that one should do things yet they involve money which they are unable to give you . This is just like a man who operates the mercedes benz while earning R300 per month and the end of the month he gives his wife R15 to buy mealiemeal but when he comes home he wants meat , where does he think the wife will get meat from if he does not give her money? I don't know a sigle day on which this House agreed to reject the system of Bantu Education . We only creticize it . If you reject it , do so openly and give money to formulate boards which will be responsible for the syllabuses , do not refuse it while you have nothing to substitute and you will bear with me there . If Bantu Education was separated from Bantu Administration and Development but under the Transvaal Education Department , it will be better . We are presently led by people who know administration but who do not know Education . The aim thereof is to further the objects of separate development . For your information we are still under Bantu Education . We ask them , they don't force us to use their things . They help us with their syllabuses and Examinations , their inspectors and their boards . Another question states thus : Why are students from urban areas refused accommodation in your schools? That is the untrue allegation . I replied it several times and I even advised the press about this untrue state of affairs . Some of the urban students who succeeded in getting accommodation are in our schools and some did not succeeded in getting admission .

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Those children are accommodated at Modjadji and C. N. Phatudi and I personally ascertained that . Those who failed to get accommodation are like any student in Lebowa . As it is there are several students in my constituency who did not get accommodation at school and even Kwena Moloto cannot accommodate them . Do you have in mind to take over all the Senior Secondary Schools as state schools? How many are they and which are those ? It is the wish of my Department and I would like to take over every school with matric . I was at Phirikolobe the day before yesterday where I met disappointments but when getting into the Principal's office , I was impressed by the good results . If this House is concerned about Education they will provide us with money in order to enable us to take over all the schools with matric so that they should be under the good care of the state . If you are still prepared to give us this off million to educate our children , while on the other hand you expect good results , then the world outside should know that you are ingincere . People are interested in knowing how much will remain after the deduction of the salaries from our vote . The English idiom says : " Nobody is more blind than the one who does not want to see " . What is the position of Sekhukhune Training School as you said that the training should be removed? When the Sekhukhune Training College start , I was not yet a member of this House . When I asked why it was built there , I was told that it was just there temporarily while they are searching for a place where they can put up a big college which is now Dr. C. N. Phatudi . However I have already received requets from the people concerned that the school should stay for sometime . This request is from magoŝi , members of Parliament and some members , their submissions are still under consideration . When I consider the removal of this chool I immediately think of the need for teachers so that we can take the teacher- pupil ratio because we are going to remove and increase classes . The school will thus exist on those basis . What happened to the promised trade school in Sekhukhuneland on the 9th March 1977 in the Leolo Regional Authority . I have already said that the request for the Trade School in the Tubatse region is still under consideration . By next month when the Parliament is closed , I will be getting to Pretoria to meet the directors of that company . They have now invited me . They have already completed the Primary School and nearby they have erected the stadium and a very beautiful community hall . I will reply to another question by the honourable Kekana . He is worried about the termination of teacher's refreshers courses . Pretoria wanted to support us with two teachers in case we were continuing with the course . We are failing even to gather teachers because we don't have money this year until you give us money. The honourable M. J. Phasha asks me how may graduate teachers I do have in my Department .

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I am still awaiting a reply from the Department . He further asks me the steps I am undertaking in order to help improving the qualifications of teachers especially the graduates . The precaution we take is that , those who apply for studies are sent to the universities and are financially assisted . Again the honourable member asked about the medium of instruction for religious instruction . He claims several religious sectors consulted him that the medium issue should be considered . I would like to inform him that I also experienced the same problem . The House has made a provision that the medium be English . But I am inclined to agree with the principle on educational principles that are against this idea , for instance if you ask a Std 3 child to pray in English , that child will be in great trouble . Further , for the Bible language is a very difficult language from the educational point of view . Even during examination when the medium was still vernacular , pupils used to fail the subject in great numbers . It has got difficult principles and children are compelled to know them by heart , e.g. there is an English extract from the Bible which read thus : "thy will be done " which is substituted by in today's English by the word you . The child has two problems in the biblical names and the language of the Bible . Therefore the children hate the Bible . It is for this House to decide the measures to be taken in order that the children should like the Bible as a subject in their Education and instill the love for the subject . The honourable Kgatla , Kgoŝi Mothapo , and Mr. Malebana are not present . I am seeking reply to the remaining questions and when I find them I will give a ready reply . Thank you .

KGOŜI B.K. MATLALA : There is one section which the Minister does understand . I would like to explain it . The honourable members say , since the Department of Education has money , let us help it in building training colleges but the Minister does not understand that . This will bring trouble in Lebowa . Our pupils do not succeed in making applications to foreign schools . It is an appeal to the Minister that whenever the community decides to build schools for itself , it be offered the opportunity to do so because he does not know when his Department will have money . Further I would like to know why the Minister does not ask money from other countries since he has got no money? We have passed an act to the effect that we shall borrow money from outside countries . At Mahwelereng where I was , the honourable members have agreed that there be educational levy so that there should be progress . It is not only the Department of Education which is important . All government departments are important . Levy will uplift the standard in the Department of Education . I would suggest that each should pay R10 per annum to help the Department of Education rather than to distribute much money to other Departments .

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KGOŝI L.L. NTWAMPE : Point of order Mr. Chairman . The speaker does not explain clearly whether we are presently dealing with education or with agriculture ? To my opinion the honourable Kgoŝi Matlala is out of order . He does not tell us anything about education .

KGOĜI B.K. MATLALA: When will the Department of Education pay school committee members . We discuss this every year . Those people are serving us and they should be paid . I want to know when the Minister is going to end double session . The cruelty in double session is that children are starving . Before I leave the floor , I would like to advise the Minister that if he does not loan money from outside countries , the schools will be closed . Thank you . THE CHAIRMAN : until 2.15.

On that note , the House will adjourn

THE HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 12.45 AND RESUMED AT 2.25 .

THE SPEAKER : stage .

THE CHAIRMAN : back in committee .

The House shall now get back to committee

Honourable House the House is now I shall call upon Kgoŝi M.B. Riba .

KGOĜI M.B. RIBA : Thank you Mr. Speaker . I have few questions to ask the Minister of Education . Changing of school name? 1 . Why do you not notify us of this cruel matter because it brings disagreement within my tribe ? 2. Mohlarutsi school has changed its name to Sekobate . Who has changed the name? 3. I approached the Minister on this matter and he told ma that the matter does not belong to his Department but to the Department of Chief Minister . Will the honourable Minister even today tell me that what I ask still belongs to the Department of Chief Minister and not his Department? 4. One of the Senior Officers of your Department the honourable Kganane does not know of this thing? I went to the Chief Minister who told me that the case belongs to your Department . What should I do then? When we came to your office we had a piece of paper which showed the file number and the day on which the name was changed . The number is A14213 dated 12/5/76 . Change name Mohlarutsi to Sekobate school . I want a full reply in this matter so as to satisfy my people on the subject because they are anxious to know , and also your decision . Thank you.

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MR . E.D. MABOT JA : The Department of Education has got no money thus we are unable to provide it with the necessary program . Why do you refuse the kgoŝi to help you in connection with the school at Moletji ? He had build it and he has teachers . Why do not you take over the school and convert it to a Training College ? Why do you refuse whereas you don't have money? Thank you .

MR. S.P. KWAKWA: Mr. Chairman , the other day I was stopped from speaking and I was in a better form than I am today. In anyway , from the Minister's policy speech it is quite clear that we were right in our fears that our education should not fall under what was then the Native Affairs Department . We feared that it would suffer the disadvantages that it has to content with today . We expressed ourselves in no unclear terms , that it was not the most proper thing that our education should be transferred to what was then Native Education . What is happening now , confirmed by the Minister himself , makes us feel that our education is discriminated against by Department that were always in the Department of Native Affairs . If one can go out in this district , one will see all the shabby offices and all sorts of things such as shortage in our education . I shall give you a concrete example of a matter , that concerns me as an inspector of schools . When the offices at Mahwelereng were built , I saw the plan and there was an office for me , there was an office for my assistant , there was office for my clerk and then office for my district clerk . And when the building was completed , I was told that the magistrate would distribute the offices. What happened? The magistrate said : I am sorry , I am only giving you two offices . Which meant that I had to use one office and my staff of four had to crowd in one office and offi es which were mine on the plan , were given to the Department of Agriculture . A Department that was always been under the Department of Native Affairs . If you can go all round to see the circuit offices , and compare them with offices of those officials who have been under the Department of Native Affairs , you will realise that education is receiving a raw deal all the time . It is not surprising now that the Minister has no money and he says the Cabinet is not responsible . These people have never appreciated the importance of education to us , and what it means to us . Before the passing of Bantu Education Act the schools were an enterprise of missionary socities subsidized by the Central Government . As a result , many of our people who did not belong to the churches did not send their children to schools because they were schools of missionaries . After the schools were handed over to the communities , people became interested thus contributed to the building of schools and the school population simply became escalated .

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The growth of the school population is revolutionary . Therefore the budgeting should also be revolutionary . People who are connected with the education of our people appreciate their children in schools . As a matter of fact I was asking myself , was it really necessary that we should have introduced the Department of Health at this stage ? I feel really that this money which has gone to the Department of Health , if it had been part of education , we would be able to meet some of the demands because I presume nearly well that the hospitals would go on as they were going on before they were taken over . Now we are caught up in the trap where our education cannot develop as we would like to develop it . THE CHAIRMAN : Order! Order ! You'll get another ten minutes honourable member if you still want to continue but at the moment 10 minutes has elapsed .

MR . S.P. KWAKWA : Thank you Mr. Chairman the trouble is this that I was denied speaking when I would have had 30 minutes . I'll therefore cut short by just putting this few question . 1.

Has the honourable the Minister an idea of per capita expenditure incurred by ...

THE CHAIRMAN : the questions .

Order !

Order !

You can hand over

MR . P.L. KEKANA: Thank you Mr. Chairman . I want to know from the Minister of Education whether he is going to build the school I told him about last year which has two principals one for morning session and another for the afternoon session? Or must Mokerong always have teachers appointed by the parents? What steps have you undertaken in order to give subsidies for Mokerong for the last three years? If there is no money , I would suggest that you make a Bill which will enforce the Lebcwa people to pay R2 Lebowa Tax so that Mokerong alone can get R1,40,000 per annum . The money should exceed the amount the Minister has reserved for subsidizing schools by R21000 . After this amount has been paid out , it will be sufficient . Thank you .

KGOĜI J.M. MALEKANE : Through you Mr. Chairman I would like to ask the Minister of Education as to how many schools have been subsidized by the amount which he reserved for the past years for subsidizing schools? Secondly Mr. Chairman , the money seems tu have been subtracted . Since there is no money , I suggest that we increase the tax for the Central Government which stands on our way does not provide us with money . The most discouraging thing is that instead of taking money for the Education of our children , money is taken to create houses .

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Do these people pay rent on their occupation of these houses? Does the housing cent enter in the Lebowa Government Revenue books . If that was the case , we would not be complaining about money . We don't have posts for teachers because of lack of funds . People are not refunded their money after they have erected buildings . Thank you Mr. Chairman .

KGOSI L.L. NTWAMPE: Mr. Chairman so much I am discouraged that I brought the Bible along with me . The community is looking forward for assistance but we don't help . Teachers don't get their salary properly. This shows that we cannot make estimates here in Lebowa . Now honourable members I am coming to read the Bible for you . Should I read

THE CHAIRMAN : Order ! Order ! Kgoŝi will have to wait and rest .

The honourable

MR.GODFREY M. SEKHUKHUKNE : Mr. Chairman , thanks for the oppotunity , I have few questions . Our children set for the examination in November and by the third week of December the results were released all over the world . The problem which confronts our children who have completed Matric is this that before they start working they are requested to submit their certificates which will not be released by that time and therefore they don't get employment . This results in the unemployment ; children becoming delinquents . What can be done to help those children because to date the certificates are not released but they have been told that they have passed? I appeal to the Minister of Education to remedy the situation so that certificate can be made available as soon as possible . Parents of children are struggling unsuccessfully in Pretoria to get hold of the certificates . The employees of the Department of Bantu Education are many as members of this Parliament but they don't attend to urgent cases .

KGOSI L. L. NTWAMPE: On a point of order Mr. Chairman . We are not in the beerhall now . Such talkings surprises us .

MR . L.C. MOTHIBA: On a point of order Mr. Chairman . I would like to put a request direct to you . There are certain members here who are bahaving ungentlemanly while we are trying to keep up the standard . We cannot avoid them any longer because of their interference . This is a Parliament . It opens discussion for everybody but it is an undertaking for the public .

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I am afraid Mr. Chairman . We will have to ask you to get some of the members out . We cannot spend public funds in a manner we are doing now. Mr. Chairman , I request that you exercise control or otherwise you get them out .

THE CHAIRMAN : you continue .

Thank you honourable member will

MR . GODFREY SEKHUKHUNE : Mr. Chairman , at various bus stops one could find children with matric certificate carrying goods for passengers so that they can make ends meet . Mr. Chairman , is there any means you can do so that certificates can be made available in time ?

KGOŜI P. NKADIMENG : Thank you very much Mr. Chairman . I am so embarassed by the way in which the Minister of Education has explained his difficulties in as far as funds are concerned . I have been reading the policy speech in order to peruse the whole thing . Things like technical schools , things like trade schools are just all money . Well , I may ask this question : Where are those commercial schools situated . I still maintain that those people who say so particularly the secretaries of the Chief Minister's office must be thoroughly investigated . THE CHAIRMAN : Order ! Order ! Honourable member , it is really unfair to level your criticism to the public servants who you know cannot answer for themselves in this Assembly . We are dealing with Education . Level your criticism to the Minister of Education . Your comments or congratulations should be directed to the Minister of Education . Honourable members , the chair rules the question of public servants out of order . KGOĜI P. NKADIMENG : It is disappointing to learn that we are denied money . The honourable the Mini ter of Education is right by saying that he is oppressed . What we are discussing now is mere wasting of time .

MR . L.C. MOTHIBA : Mr. Chairman before I put my question , there is one thing I would like to clarify : that when the honourable Minister of Education indicated that there were some instructions given out to his secretary for certain matters , you never stopped the Minister concerned , but when the honourable Kgoŝi Nkadimeng is following up the reply of the Minister , you say he must not mention it . According to Rules of Procedure we are equal in this House and you should have left Kgosi Nkadimeng to answer for : what the honourable the Minister has said .

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This is very unfair in the part of the chair . Mr. Chairman , now I start with my questions . Mr. Chairman , according to the policy speech of the honourable the Minister of Education there are certain schools that must be started . Probably this year ; trade school and so on . I want to find out from him whether it would be better to stop creating better extra problems by building up new school he brings in students who don't have books , desks , teaching aids etc. The honourable Minister , while we are aware of the inflationary position , on the other hand the school population increase according to his speech is 30 000 pupils per year . None here can predict correctly how long inflation will take . Inspite of all these what is his Department intending to do in those financial difficulties? I have information that if these honourable members wish to change any amount from any vote , they can do so in terms of Rule 144. I must indicate Mr. Chairman that it is only this honourable House that has the power to accept a vote that money be spent in this particular aspect . If you don't pass it , nobody can spend the money without prior approval . When listening carefully , and attentive to the replies of the honourable the Minister of Education I understood that you honourable members of this House don't give him money but still you want some progress in education . I am trying to indicate that you can always change if you honourable members are convinced of your priorities . Mr. Chairman , the honourable member has indicated that about 660 teachers have completed but will stay without posts . What is the purpose of creating so many teachers training colleges which are producing more than the required number? You have got 660 teachers which you cannot absorb into employment , but you will complain way about the shortage of teachers . Is it not one through which we misuse funds? I think your Department and yourself Sir , should go back and discuss this issue . Mothapo's Commission indicated that there is a shortage of qualified teachers . You have introduced extra teachers training schools . But today you stand up and tell us you have got 660 teachers that you cannot employ and we still need these people . It is very surprising that you have quoted this thing and I you to page 10 8H ( 2) just want to refer

You say " only 6 of the schools which are Departmental are Senior Secondary . It is my hope that the education vote will be appropriately improved to enable my Department to take over all Senior Secondary Schools and state schools to improve the quality and production at Matric level . Now I want to know what you mean by appropriately improved?

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Mr. Chairman , I realised from the honourable the Minister of Education that compulsory school attendance has taken place this year . As indicated in page 18 and in the same page 17 ( i ) he says with the provision of the current vote , it will be revealed that insufficient money is made available for this items . Inspite of insufficient funds appropriated for , the honourable the Minister , he still introduces compulsory school attendance this year . What improvements does he expect if funds are just not there? To sum up Mr. Chairman I should once more indicate that this honourable House has got all the powers , if they do agree to change a sub- head from one place to another , otherwise they wouldn't bring these estimates to you for approval and I can assure you if you don't approve of a vote , they will not use it . Thank you very much Mr. Chairman .

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Thank you Mr. Chairman . I would like to react to this beautiful question of the last questioner . From the start he said something about Public Servants in this House . As indicated earlier , matters concerning other persons cannot be discussed in this House and if the Public Servant can be called to answer in this House unless you ask this House to be informal . This is what I learned from the books . The only thing which cannot be done is to discuss while this House is in session . If he has to give information ; that is always done through the Commissioner- General . Going further into the questions , I have been asked two questions . One states why have I the hope that there can be improvements? Firstly in our Sesotho language inspite of predicaments , there are achievements " N. Sotho Literal meaning : " Ngwana le tlaleng o a tswalwa " " Secondly I got the support of this House one day that my vote should be improved . This gives me hope because this House is not a rubber stamp hence my hope that there can be improvement Mr. questioner . As it is I am going among the people of Lebowa and everybody is concerned about the inadequate funds allotted to Education . I hope this House will listen to the complains of the community outside , because nobody wants to keep his child at home . Compulsory Education is introduced because all education Departments in the Republic connected with Bantu Education have done the same this year and I don't want Lebowa to lag behind other Education Departments . We cannot revert the system as Lebowa does not have money but only embarked on unnecessary projects without considering the priorities .

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After my speech last year , this House agreed upon securing a loan and the money was to be used on capital projects such as buildings so that the money we have could be used for educational purposes . As a result of a hot debate , the loan we had , was unfortunately used in a way that I personally couldn't appreciate . There was yet a request that we postpone starting the new trade schools . Unfortunately these trade schools are not built by certain communities or by the Government . All the new trade schools we have gifts . Barlows was given to us by the Barlows Group . They built the school and left it for Lebowa so that the products of this school : should come and help Lebowa . The same applies to Sir Vaal Duncan which was built for Lebowa by P.M.C. in Phalaborwa . The gifts came forth as a result of the efforts of the honourable the Chief Minister . This would be a setback if this could stand as a white elephant . The Ferrochrome is offering us another trade school it needs artisans and Lebowa needs artisans . The school will be worth over million rand . I wish to plead with this House that we do all we can to have these schools in order to eliminate the shortage of manpower ( " Daar is nie mannekrag nie " ) It is difficult for my department to allow people to continue building or to stop them until I get instruction from this House that whenever people request for the erection of a school refuse them until inflation is over . I have the answer regarding the position of this House in connection with the projects they were proposing to embark on inspite of this inflationary era . We had a lengthy discussion and we have it in a paper that we need those things . I mentioned Technical Schools because we are badly in need of Technicians in Lebowa , a commercial school is also needed because we want people to take up almost all the posts that they will have qualified for in Lebowa . The University we have is not sufficient if we look at the size of Lebowa . Qwaqwa is starting its own University . Lebowa can also build another university provided it uses its funds correctly . Pretoria and again tells us that it has given us administative staff on loan , I am not pleased with this thing . That is why I would like to continue inspite of all these problems . ( " Ngwana le tlalengo a tswalwa " ) If there is no money , we stop everything and maintain the status quo . There is a question why should you keep on producing teachers yet you cannot absorb them? I have not yet given the hope that Lebowa will have money for the coming years . If we cancel the idea of building expensive houses for the Minister's , we should have 283 teachers paid on this money . Those houses are not necessary now. We still have to spend R24 000 in moving these offices to Lebowakgomo . Is this a priority to our education ? With that we could employ 48 teachers hence I have hope . I hope I have answered the questions of the honourable L.C. Mothiba.

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If I have not answered them all , he will remind me later on . There is a question from the honourable E.D. Mabotja unfortunately he is not present and I will thus leave for a while . There are questions by the honourable Kgoŝi Riba regarding the naming of Mohlarutsi school to Sekobati . He alleged that I don't know anything about the matter . It is correct I said so . My people , in the Department of Education we are directly dealing with school committees . Whenever we receive a letter from the school committee we accept all the information as an instruction from the community under whom the school committee is serving . In the case of the honourable Kgoŝi Riba the dispute arises at his school under his Ntona . I learned that the Ntona is his younger brother and they are domestic squables between him and his younger brother in connection with the school . This means that a man wants to do things without the consent of kgoŝi and the tribe . When there is a case between an Ntona and the kgoŝi our Department does not feature in and thus refer it to the Department of the Chief Minister which deals with magoŝi affairs . If the authority affairs is settled , we only take one day in dealing with the name . I am not empowered to discipline defiant Induna . Even now I still maintain that if the Ntona is disciplined by the correct court , kgoŝi Riba's case will still receive attention . As the name of one of my officers is mentioned in the issue presently in this House I will not say a thing but I will approach the officer concerned and thereafter I will come and tell you what he says but still not in this House . The honourable Kgoŝi Malekane asked why some funds are decreased ? It is true that we were forced to reduce funds of certain sub headings too much . We were so compelled in order to maintain the hostels which is done at a very high cost . Further the increments of teacher's salary made those reductions . It is asked as to which schools I am going to build in this financial year . In other words it means which schools I am going to subsidize on rand for rand basis . I said already that there is an outstanding amount of schools build in 1975 and 1976, and they recently built schools . We shall attend to first application until we are through with all the outstanding accounts . I think I have given a sufficient answer . So far I am not certain of the schools I am going to start with but after the money has been approved I shall start from the first applications until the funds decline .

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Already I told you that we have only R119 000 to help those schools . By the end of the last financial year we were owing R944 000 and more . After we have subtracted the former from the latter we remain still owing and meanwhile additional schools are erected . All the questions on finance are just the same . The honourable Kekana asked whether I am busy building the school at Mokerong . As far as I know we have already submitted our request to the Department responsible for building to continue with the project . May be they are still on the way. Further we said that he wants to know what I am going to do for Mokerong or should Mokerong continue with unqualified teachers? In my policy speech , I said that privately paid teachers are exceeding the qualified teaching staff in the field . If possible each post occupied by private teacher should be replaced by subsidized qualified teacher . I remember at one time there were such unqualified teachers to Lebowa and were immediately replaced by qualified teachers . So if Lebowa wishes it can sweep them away at a go. For your information , it is not only Mokerong which is overburdened by such privately paid teachers. Some of the qualified teachers here are just working as private teachers hoping for grants in future at the very school where they are presently teaching . The honourable member of this House is responsible to remedy this situation . The Cabinet is not responsible for the funds here but the members of this House are responsible . It is a pity if members are not aware of that . What are your plans for Makerong concerning the subsidies? This question is similar to the previous one and I have already replied to it . One member has requested that Lebowa tax be increased to R3-00 . The issue does not come for the first time in . this House I also included it in my speech . When this idea was brought to light , I asked myself whether that will be possible since people of other constituencies who are failing to pay the Lebowa tax , will they manage to pay this increased amount? We may cause trouble as those constituencies which have paid may not still get the facilities they are expecting . They will demand violently from this House for they have paid the Educational tax and this question remind me of what was asked regarding the reason I made provision for the Educational tax Bill during the session . I must get the acceptance of this House before anything can be undertaken . Secondly the amount payable must be determined . Thirdly if there is any Bill which has to be made , immediately , I must get the blessings of this House . Before a Bill is made it must be suggested by this House and passed before the Cabinet which in turn send it to Pretoria to the legal specialists to frame it legally .

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I got the mandate for the educational levy late , that is somewhere towards the 19th of March from Makerong . When I told the honourable the Chief Minister , he said he will approach the legal advisors we are having here about the possibility of such a state of affairs if the parliament needs it . I assure you that if this House agrees on that or decides on that the legal section will tell us of the possibility and thereafter we shall push it through . The honourable S .P . Kwakwa asked whether I have any idea of the per capita expenditure incurred by schools in the homelands , in the white areas , coloured and Indians . I know per capita expenditure incurred on every child in Lebowa . Already you were told that from our budget excluding the salaries we have R1.2 . million and when this is divided by the number of children , we have R3 00 . Whereas a white child spends R621 per year . I have the old information regarding schools under the Central Government when it was still R228 per child per annum . I don't know about the others but what I could say is that they are far above us . What is the pupil ratio in the other homelands especially where double session system has been eliminated? I only know that Lebowa teacher pupil ratio in the other homelands is higher but I don't know anything in the white areas . Does the honourable Minister think that the trade schools when full fledged will meet most of our Industrial needs ? Yes because there is close to four of those schools if funds are available . What are the developments about the special schools that was to be build at Mahwelereng? My Department released five teachers to undergo training at Pretoria for one year in preparation for that school . The Central Government had made a promise of building the school for us . When we asked them what the position was , they said they were also promised by one company which was at that moment busy with the school at Kwazulu . However the students of Kwazulu still maintain the hope that we shall be assisted one day. The Cabinet has left the matter in the hands of the Chief Minister for immediate persuance . That is how the matter has developed so far . Can the Minister give this House an idea o the guidance given to the homelands by the Secretary for Bantu Education sometimes last year on the correct way of budgeting ? Yes I can . It is only that it is a longish report to give but among other things we were guided in this way that first of all the Minister and his Department sit down and get their priorities . The Minister arranges his priorities in order of importance and decides upon how much he has. Thereafter he informs the treasury which provides him with the money or if the treasury has less money than what he 2. wants, he advises him .

* 75*

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We emphatically say there is a wrong impression created in the homelands . The Secretary said the Department of Bantu Education does not prescribe to any use . The Department of Bantu Administration and Development gives a lump sum of money to every Homeland Government . It is that homeland which distributes the money in accordance with the needs of the Departments . This is what is done here in Lebowa . The Secretary of Finance advises various secretaries how much they must use . With us here when we go to make Our requests with the Department of Finance in most cases we are told there is no money " ( Daar is nie geld nie ) " . Of the 145 graduates in Lebowa Schools how many are holding BSC Degrees . The reply will follow . What is the explanation for the percentage start in Education vote?

་ When I came here last year I found the budget completed and even decreased by 24.8% . It was for the first time that education got anything lower that 30% . The reason for lowering the budget is therefore unknown to me . I think I have replied all the questions I have the honourable House .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Chairman of Committees of supplies and honourable House , I welcome the opportunity , however belated to participate a little in the discussion . Allow me honourable House to put questions to his Excellency the Commissioner General regarding the Rules of Procedure here . I am fully aware that His Excellency the Commissioner General is just now in this situation in Lebowa but he is an old hand in the game . In the past , this honourable House spoke very superfecially and we were very much impressed and satisfied with ourselves by the irregular things we did . When they were sent back to us where we had to re-do the work. I have learnt my lessons and I woulddn't like to repeat the mistakes of the past . With the procedures here , there are three clauses , which I would very much like to have clarity on . The first one is clause 129 item ( 1 ) and ( 2) of the Rules of Procedure . The second one is Rule 143 and the third one is Rule 144 with a number of sub- items almost covering half of a page . I wouldn't call upon His Excellency the Commissioner General at this stage but I prefer to ask whether he could tomorrow morning be allowed to give clarity . I read these things but I couldn't agree with what the House is talking about . Since it seems we are running in an irregular rail , and normally when an explanation is needed he is consulted , he want him to give the benefit of his knowledge by explaining what these clauses really mean . However we don't want him to participate in our politics . I feel terribly humble to have to point fingers at people who know because it is really as a saying goes he who knows not , that he knows not , he is a fool leave him . I would like this House really also to draw a leave out of the reach .

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experience of those who know . Mr. Speaker , with your permission , I will not take part in the debate right now but I intend taking part in this debate at a later stage . Mr. Speaker Sir .

MR . A.S. MAHLANGU : I move that we treat the Education vote item by item . (THE HOUSE AGREED TO GO ITEM BY ITEM)

KGOĜI M.8 . RIBA : Thank you Mr. Chairman . I have objections , Mr. Chairman , because the Minister of Education has not replied me . I fear that if we treat the vote item by item I may not get the reply . It is my wish that the Minister replies to my questions seriously they are seriously in need of a reply .

THE CHAIRMAN : Order ! Order ! Honourable member . Tomorrow is set for questions and the honourable member will ask the questions tomorrow . The House has agreed to go item by item . MR . N.S. MASHIANE : I don't understand Mr. Chairman . Why we should treat the vote item by item while we are still waiting an explanation from Pretoria in accordance with the Chief Minister's request . We are waiting for the Commissioner- General to come and give us guidance on the clauses of Rules of Procedure . I move that we should first get the explanation before we handle item by item .

THE CHAIRMAN : I don't think the House is out of order . The explanation that we are going to get is only pertaining to the Rules of Procedure as explained by the honourable L.C. Mothiba . As it is now the House has finished asking questions .

MR . N.S. MASHIANE : Point of order Mr. Chairman ! I want to know what led the Chief Minister to request for guidance while we were dealing with this vote .

MR . M.T. BOPAPE : to trick us .

THE CHAIRMAN :

Mr. Chairman it seems you want

Order !

Order !

MR . M.T. BOPAPE : Right now you are running away from replying questions forwarded by the honourable Kgoŝi Riba . THE CHAIRMAN : Order ! Order ! You know honourable members sometimes you don't know the person you must blame . You just stand to blame the rock while it is not the rock but the wood .

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After the honourable A.S. Mahlangu has moved that the vote be treated item by item , the House accepted . If you say yes , and later on you say no because you are taking something else , Mr. M.T. Bopape should have stood up and put the question on the Minister of Education and not to order the chair .

MR . M.T. BOPAPE : You will pardon me . In actual fact I should have directed my question to the honourable member who has moved the passing of the discussion . KGOĜI M.B. RIBA : I request that we refer the matter for tomorrow where the Minister will be requested to reply me . THE CHAIRMAN :

Don't worry about time , you may go on .

KGOŝI M.B. RIBA : I realised from the Minister of Education that where there is a case between Kgoŝi and Kgoŝi he does not interfer . He forces me to ask him as to how many magoŝi are there at Ga-Riba? If that man is an Induna ; who installed him an Induna and where and how? I now realise for the first time that there is any other chief at GaRibane besides myself. The Minister's Department gives birth to problems and refer them to other Departments for solution . I say so because his Department knows where these problems emanated . Finally since these problem of time has elapsed I would like to inform the House that I am the only kgoŝi at GaRiba . I request to proceed by tomorrow . THE CHAIRMAN : On that note this House shall adjourn until 10.00 a.m. tomorrow .

THE HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 5.00 P.M.

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1977 :

TUESDAY THE 3RD MAY .

THE SITTING COMMENCES AT 10h00 THE SPEAKER READS THE PRAYER . Mr A.S. Mahlangu seconded by Kgošigadi V.T. Dinkwanyane moved the adoption of the minutes .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker , Sir , and honourable members , it would appear to me that this is the appropriate time that I should respond to the views expressed by this hon . house on the question of our difficulties with Kgoši Mapoch in Moutse area . With your permission , Mr Speaker , I would like to proceed . I am most grateful honourable members to have had the opportunity of listening to the views of the hon . members . The views differed naturally but were useful to consider very carefully . Some of them sounded like coming from those who are already in dispair and defeated . There was a sense of hopelessness . Others did not show that kind of feeling . Instead they felt that there was still some work to do to improve the situation . That we could try repeatedly . And that is the view which caught my imagination ; that we should try again and again ; that we cannot be defeated by people and that we cannot run away from our problems . Now, Mr Speaker , I would like to summarise the situation just like this . In my policy speech , I referred to the transfer of trust land from the South African Bantu Trust to the homeland governments . That is the point on which we should not feel defeated . We haven't tried that point yet sufficiently . I added in my policy speech if you would recall , honourable members , that I strongly mentioned the point that the use of land and its fruits does not mean ownership of the land . If you possess the land it is not yours . You are not the owner of the land . And what is still very tragic is that in terms of Common Law in this land , the owner of the land owns all the immovable properties on that land . You can imagine the houses we build on someone's land . You can think of any corner of Lebowa and you see houses which have been built by our Lebowa citizens and other fixtures on the trust lands . And we are under the impression that this land and these properties are ours . It is an illusion . The owner of the land owns those immovable things . In fact you are in a similar position like that of a tenant and this is a basic fact . Are we aware honourable members that apart from the tribally bought farms which belong to the tribe - all the other lands do not belong to us? You may call it crown land as some are used to call it that way i.e. old reservations and locations . It doesn't belong to us . We have been living there for a long time but that doesn't belong to us . I am not so sure really, there may be a few exceptions but on the whole this land has never been transferred to us to be our own . I don't speak of the trust lands which we get from under the trust farms . We live on trust farms which have been allocated and thus they are not our property . The government buys the farms for us so to speak , but they hesitate ; they are reluctant to hand over the farms to the government of the homelands , because as long as the government has got the land in this land they will be able to shift us without any difficulty . If they hand the land to us , if they hand the farms over to us they won't shift us around as they like . It will be ourselves on our own property and they won't shift us .

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And as they shift us about we think it is due to our own fault . We think that somebody has agreed to this shifting and yet it isn't true . They are the owners and they do as they please . If they could give us this land with minerals we would have mineral rights . As such we could use these rights at our own disposal and at our own discretion . We would use these rights to the best of our advantage . Mr Speaker , I want to emphasise one thing which you all know. You have the minerals and mineral rights in any territory . That has formed one of the difference to the economic viability of that territory . The Transvaal of Paul Kruger was very unimportant until in 1886 when minerals were discovered here and the economy of the Transvaal Republic boasted sky high and the whole world , England , included , rushed over here to ask Paul Kruger : "Please Sir! " - that is the ' uitlander ' question if you will remember . That is how the Transvaal became the focus of the development of the Republic of South Africa from time immemorial till today . If therefore the Republic of South Africa can hand the territory , to the government of Lebowa you will be different people overnight . And I said in my policy^ speech that if I get this problem of land transfer there will be no quarell between us and Kgosi Mapoch or anybody else if the land belongs to us . The present problem now is because we haven't got control over this land . It is the Central Government that controls the farms which are supposed to belong to us or being bought for us . Can I now count on the support of this House on this particular issue? I must get a full hearted support because this is a crucial matter of life and death . And I would be very pleased if this honourable House can give me and this government the backing they need to approach Pretoria by the earliest possible opportunity especially to get Pretoria to let us have the trust lands . I know Pretoria will , as usual play around on tactical matters that this things take a long time ; we must make inquiries . The mineral rights nere don't belong to us . This belong to somebody in England whom we must contact . You will really understand why they are moving or trying to move Kgosi Ramokgopa from where he is . The reason is very simple , members of the House . That area there , has corundum. It is a very important mineral . And if they move Kgoši Ramokgopa there they are not going to give him another area with corundum. So you can see the economic implications to this idea . I said to you that there are military reasons as well . If you look at where Kgosi Ramokgopa and Kgoši Machaka are located , not very far away from that area there is a great army camp which is guarding the north front of the Transvaal . And therefore as long as Ramokgopa is there he is in the way of the military operations . And if Lebowa owns that particular area it can tell the Republic government to stop moving Ramokgopa around . Lebowa can say to Pretoria : "You are in our territory . If you have to talk military secrets and strategy take us into your confidence . " They cannot put a camp there within that area without consulting Lebowa . The military manoeuvres whether they are air- because the air state over that area of Ramokgopa , will belong to Lebowa and no plane can fly across there without consulting Lebowa . It will be against the international laws . But remove him then the Republican government has no obstacle at all from the Limpopo right down to Cape Town.

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If you look at the map you will find that the whole corridor is now open ; it is all free . There is nothing stopping it . They can come through right down . There is a railway line here they can go right down here and there is no obstacle whatsoever . This is of very important consideration for a decent future , but for the present it is the mineral welfare , they are out . And if you now look at what they are trying to do with Kgoši Seleka and the group over there you will find that the minerals there are rich . If they move them there , they are not going to give them another rich mineral area . Again , you can realise the economic implications of that consolidation scheme At Mapulaneng , where Kgoši Mohlala is , there is already a big camp Maleikop . They say the people must go away from there for military reasons and they call that , the consolidation of the homelands . At Moutse , for example where they say the Lebowa people must go , do you know why exactly? The reason is economic . It is a very rich area and it is also near the hut of the Transvaal industrial and commercial operation , i.e. Pretoria complex , Johannesburg complex and Vereeniging complex . When you were at Moutse you would be near to these places . It is a growth point from which they want to remove us and maintain that it is not our land but theirs . It is a trust land . And it is for this reason and other reasons that I am requesting the support of this House that we must tackle this problem right in depth not superficially . If the Republic of South Africa will stop telling us about consolidation scheme that is not of our interest but that which is a grand strategy to control us and deprive us of the wealth we have now, that will be far better .

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Now, I want to address myself . I have asked whether I can ask the support of this House so that this Cabinet can go ahead making representations . I now want to address myself to the questions specifically of Kgoši Mapoch and ourselves . You know we are looking for security . We are looking for some sort of strength . And I was pleased that members of this House have said that negotiations must start with Mapoch earnestly . I agree with that view . But it is no use going to Kgoši Mapoch with empty hands . We must go to Kgosi Mapoch with some sort of proposition . I know for a fact that Kgoši Mapoch wants his language . And fortunately enough in the Department of Education our law provides that we do not stop anybody's language whatever it is . So I think if Kgoši Mapoch is made aware of the fact that with Lebowa his language rights will not be disturbed he will realise that as far as that goes his culture is safe . but is that enough ? I am very sure that we will not interfere with his tribal authorities , with his regional authorities if he has any . We will allow them to function in the same capacity as they are functioning anywhere else in Lebowa . So I think in as far as that goes he will find that he is not suffering any loss . But is that sufficient really? I don't think so . I think he will want more . He will want to know politically and governmentally whether he is not going to be a looser . This is a moot point and we should face it . I wonder honourable members whether it will be in order . I am now asking whether it will be in order if we negotiate with him that this government of Lebowa - the Parliament of Lebowa is prepared to amend the constitution of Lebowa in such a way that we will entrench a clause or clauses which will give Mapoch satisfaction that he is equal with us in every respect . There will be no discrimination against him in any way . For instance, is it in order will it be in order if in negotiations

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it is mentioned that there will be a clause that a provision is made in the constitution of Lebowa that will provide that there will always be a Cabinet member who is Ndebele ? There may be one or two but there will always be someone on the Cabinet of Lebowa who will be Ndebele . Will that be in order? I want to know from this House . If we are playing open cards and we mean what we do that we are permanently going to work with Mapoch and perhaps with his considerates for all time as long as we live because if we don't give any guarantees I wonder whether deep down in his heart Kgoši Mapoch or the group will feel that they are equal with us . I know that in the history of this country and in the history of other countries these questions were solved by entrenching certain clauses in the constitutions of the countries concerned which make everybody sure that nobody will suffer . You could never have had the Union of South Africa . You would never have had the Republic of South Africa if they hadn't been entrenched clauses equalising the Afrikaner and the British citizens of this country . I think even on the question of Native think , they agreed , they entrenched certain clauses how to deal with the Black man . I know presently just out of sheer necessity we have tried to have on our Cabinet representatives of the Ndebele groups . But there is nothing in the constitution that entrenches this . And it is therefore very important that this House must now think very clearly whether we shouldn't do a thing like that and approach Kgoši Mapoch or the Ndebele group for that matter to see that we equalize with him fully . The French and the English in Canada did the same . Otherwise we wouldn't have had Canada you have . Somehow , it is in human nature , Mr Speaker , that people like to feel secure . They like to feel happy . Therefore , I am asking this honourable House to think along those lines and even negotiate along those lines with Kgoši Mapoch because I accept that it is important to negotiate with Kgoši Mapoch properly . The point is we should strive now to have the trust lands . The trust lands that are under the South African Bantu Trust should be transferred to the government of Lebowa or to the people of Lebowa and we will have no quarrel with anybody because we will be able to shift ourselves around and to talk about ourselves and nobody will be shifting us and shanting us around . On the second point I think it is quite right that we should negotiate with Kgoši Mapoch ; but we should negotiate with him as equals so that we can entrench a clause or clauses which will give Kgosi Mapoch the future assurance that he will always be in this House and he will loose nothing but he will share power with us . And if we have problems he will share those problems with us as equals . And I grave the indulgence , Mr Speaker , of the honourable House , to give us the direction in which we have to move now in a concrete way . It is a matter between Black and Black . And let us play open cards with one another . I am waiting for the reaction of the House , Mr Speaker , Sir ! THE SPEAKER ' Honourable members , in order to continue with the discussion emanating from the announcement made by the Chief Minister , to safe time I would ask with due respect the Honourable the Chief Minister to move an unopposed motion without notice that this matter be discussed so that we can tackle it without a waste of time .

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THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker and hon . members , I move an unopposed motion that this House debate this issue now MR M.W. KGATLA : Mr Speaker , following the Rules of Procedure , give us appropriate time so that we should be able to know how long we are going to debate this issue . THE SPEAKER : Thank you , but in terms of our standing Rules of Procedure accepted , time for a motion is usually 1½ hours . It is up to you to make your own decision on it . The law allows you to do so . MR M.T. BOPAPE : Mr Speaker , I would like to thank the Chief Minister on his speech . We the Black people have no discrimination and we have never had that before . We love Kgoši Mapoch as we love ourselves . If this House will be willing to have discussions with Kgoši Mapoch there will be no trouble . Mapoch is a kgoši with his own community . Lebowa on the other hand is a government . Now, when we try to negotiate with him , he will realise that we are doing so on behalf of the government so that he should become one and the same thing with this government . When this government is going to discuss with him it is not going to temper with his bogoši . We want to form one and the same strong government with Mapoch . Mapoch is also surprised of the deeds of the Central Government . He is not fighting with us . Yesterday when he organized a celebration at Doornkop he invited me and other magoši to enjoy that he is not fighting with Lebowa . Those are just beliefs about him . At home he buys at our shops and we also buy at his . There is no confrontation . Mapoch will receive us cordially , we should not blame him. I am now coming to the trust farms mentioned by the Chief Minister We should fight for these lands as they were promised to us the Lebowa Government . If we do not do so , Lebowa will be reduced into a small country . These trusts are causing a lot of confusion because they are allotted to Kgoši Mapoch by the Central Government as it is owing him. So , this is done by removing our people from these trusts . Thank you , Mr Speaker . MR M.J. PHASHA : Mr Speaker , I would like to associate myself with remarks made by our hon . Chief Minister this morning . Honourable members you will remember that history starts itself like this . If you refer to the U.S.A. as it stands today , you will remember that when it started there were phrases like : "Taxation without representation tyrany" . So when the Chief Minister delivered his message this morning it took me back to American history . One other thing that we should bear in mind is that the Mapoch people had no good hand in the formulation of the policy of separate development . In negotiating with him we must also bear it in mind that we should first convince Pretoria that separation with Mapoch is not leading to any relationship in future . Through our representative , His Excellency , the Commissioner-General who has travelled with us in the areas we visited , I think we can easily get a good hearing from Pretoria . I must sincerely appeal to His Excellency the Commissioner- General that we have now lost hope and we only have hope in him .

The nation of Lebowa is frustrated by this question of boundaries . and without his assistance I can forsee bloodshed amongst Blacks

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in the north . Mr Speaker , Sir , through you may I quote from the reaction of the Chief Minister of Gazankulu in the Sunday Times immediately we visited his area? We returned there on Thursday and on Sunday he reacted like this : I quote : " The African must realise once and for all that apartheid and all that it stands for is in the eyes of Black people , not only wrong but morally evil . So evil that no thinking Black man , not even those leaders who have opted for independence will wish to see it perpertuating another day . It belittles us and denies our rights to share in a common humanity . We reject the narrow concept of sinuousity which has enleased much venom and tension amongst homelands for example the disputes between Transkei and the Ciskei , Transkei and Qwaqwa , Gazankulu and Lebowa . Sinuousity as the basis of political expression even between Afrikaner and English has unleased as great deal of animosity and harm to the national unity. " Mr Speaker we are facing this and I whole heartedly support the Chief Minister on the suggestion that in our constitution when we negotiate with Mapoch we must promise that in our constitution an entrenchment of a clause giving him what any man would require should be enclosed . If you would like to win politically , you must be unselfish because if you realise that there is somewhere you can't benefit nobody will agree with you .. I .. must direct my request again to his Excellency , the Commissioner- General and inform him that he should be aware that some of us did not know the areas we visited . And we visited them for the first time with him . He shouldn't be under the impression that we knew the places before him . Before I sit down , Mr Speaker , through you , I would like to direct my question to his Excellency requesting him to give guidance in as far as he has seen the places with us . What he thinks we should do to succeed in our battle . I know, Mr Speaker , that the honourable , his Excellency is a new man in Lebowa but not in politics . In politics he is far experienced than any other man in this House . That's why he was sent here by the Central Government which has more sophisticated people in politics .

THE SPEAKER : Order , honourable member . We cannot ask his Excellency the Commissioner- General to say something concerning on how he reviews the situation . MR M.J. PHASHA: Thank you , Mr Speaker . In any case I say this because I am embarrassed ; I am frustrated . I thought through him I would get a way out for unity ; because my belief is that if he understands our language , Pretoria would easily understand us . The question of Mapoch , Mr Speaker , is really a crucial one in that without coming to an agreement as I stated before I foresee trouble which will lead to a loss of life amongst the Africans . So if anybody can come with a suggestion that can avoid that bloodshed I would be very much thankful to him. MR S.P. KWAKWA : Mr Speaker , I am not very optimistic . I have been involved in this Ndebele affairs . When meetings were held in Pretoria I was always with them . In fact one or two meetings were held in office . We were with this Mapoch gentleman and we seemed to be moving together . But when they somersaulted , I don't know what happened , they didn't even warn us . Now we want to woo them by promising them security if they come to us . There is an English saying that you cannot eat your cake and have it . You cannot have both alternatives . We are talking of entrenching the rights of the Mapoch people in Lebowa and we

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are quoting the examples that the governments have done similar things in the past . Let us not overlook that we are at the stage where the colony was the Cape Colony in 1834 when it was just a Legislative Assembly . And when South Africa entrenched the language rights it was when it was an independent country . That was the same with the United States . Now we want to entrench and we don't want independence . How can we , because at this stage I believe the Republican government can tell us that we have no authority to entrench any clause here? We cannot be told at this stage but at the time when Mapoch for instance wants to secede again . You know that the crux of this whole matter is the land issue . Well and good if we amalgamate and they get settled it would be just what is happening in Gazankulu because the people who came to " lotšha" - greet ; settled and now they claim the land . Now, after they have settled what will stop them from deciding to secede and want to go with the land we are fighting for? Even that entrenchment would it be accepted to them because they are not the only Ndebeles ? If you entrench that there will always be a Ndebele Cabinet member , what then if we say: well we are satisfied with Kgoši Seleka ; they say: we don't recognise him ; where are we? Or we entrench and they don't have a man to offer , shall we just push anybody into the Cabinet just because of this commitment? Now I feel the whole arrangement in my mind is a security reason . Now you know that our difficulties are caused by the fact that we are not prepared to opt for independence . And as long as we don't accept independence , there will always be some underground organizations to do Lebowa down . It has happened right here in Lebowa that some indunàs have become dikgoši because some dikgoši who were recognised were not prepared to accept the new policy that was thrown on them . So that as long as we don't draw the line we can expect that we shall have difficulties of this nature and you must just confront them not by trying to look for compromises . Once we give in here then we are going to give in somewhere . I definitely want to state that I am not opposed to any negotiations with Kgoši Mapoch . But let us not flatter him with promises which will be an embarrassment to us in future . MR S.I. DIGASHU : Mr Speaker , we have heard about the Chief Minister's requests . It is clear that concerning Moutse and Mapulaneng , he is in difficulties ..... . ( Interjection ) THE SPEAKER : Excuse me . Honourable members , I would like to bring this to your notice that there are members who after going outside , they send their messengers to come and take their bags to show that they are no longer coming again in this House . For your information , I have the names of those people who after going outside they never come back again . If I can write your names again , you will not receive your allowances . MR S.L. DIGASHU : Mr Speaker , I don't want to say that Mapoch will do this or the Central Government will do that . It would be far better if we could meet Mapoch and discuss the difficulties embracing him and ourselves and await his comment That which we would get from Kgoši Mapoch would be what we would carry over to the Central Government . I hope by going first through Mapoch , we can get a direction . We can't do otherwise by ignoring him .

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When you come to the entrenchment of a clause that will protect Kgoši Mapoch , I foresee that as a leaking bucket . By speaking with a law we had, would be of importance . I say it is a leaking bucket because Mapoch may come now and find that we do not have that law . When we are playing draught we don't know who is going to win . Only God knows . If we have Mapoch here and many other Ndebeles as well as different seats reserved for the Ndebeles and we set a lot , and the lot falls on a different Ndebele apart from Mapoch , what are we going to do because Mapoch will not occupy any seat in this Cabinet? My suggestion was that we should go and have discussions with Mapoch and forget about this entrenchment of a clause in our constitution I don't mean that by promising Mapoch milk and honey will be of no benefit to us . We should put this issue of entrenchment aside and discuss with Mapoch and after we have agreed to each other it is then that we consider it . What we can promise him is that the Lebowa Government will not interfere with his government . The Hon . the Chief Minister has given us an example of Sekgosese and Beauty ( at Seleka ) where the people should be removed . On this issue I would suggest that the government maintaining that people concerned should be removed , they should not remove the the people but instead leave them there so that the two i.e. the people and the government should share those natural resources . That would solve the problem that we do not love each other and that the outside world would view South Africa as new South Africa where Blacks and whites live and eat together. A day before yesterdatthe Chief Minister said that the cattle of South Africa has two colours Black and White . But this is just one and single cattle . It is South Africa Black and White . By that I would like to support him and I am still saying , we should eat together to show that we are one cattle . We should forget about insulting one another . MR M.W. KGATLA : Mr Speaker , some issues must be told even though they will not please some members . When we are making an investigation we inquire why the South African government is buying the white farmers out but farms are not handed over to Lebowa . This is not the same thing in other homelands . For example , when they buy a land adjacent to Gazankulu area and it is meant for the consolidation of the Gazankulu , the farm is handed over to that government . The same thing is experienced in the venda homeland . The most important question is it not the same in Lebowa" ? According to ask today is : ་ ་ to the map of Pretoria , Lebowa was the second homeland to become independent . If you miss number two , then you automatically become number three in the line . But today we say " No" to independence . And Pretoria asks people what they actually want . They have been prepared since 1951 up to this moment , over 26 years , but they say nothing about what we are preparing them for . I want to make this House to believe that when we went for this Bantu Authority's Act of 1951 we had a direction to which we were getting . But something just went wrong somewhere . Rumours say we have got a wrong leadership . And Pretoria says they are going to discipline us because of wrong leadership . How on earth can they buy farms this way and hand them over to Mapoch without handing them over to us? Pretoria says they are going to discipline us . They maintain that when we are inside here we talk another language and when our leader is outside this House he talks another language . And as such they are going to discipline us in order to do the same . And Mr Speaker , Sir , I am not against Black u joining Black .

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Another question I would like to ask and to be answered today is , "What made Mapoch not to join us all along?" What will induce him to join us now? I am 100% against the entrenchment of a clause in our constitution in order to please Mapoch . We have eleven tribal authorities in Mokerong under the Ndebeles and we have the Ndebeles in this House and they were never given a special concession in this House . If you can try to satisfy Mapoch alone and forget about these other Ndebeles who have been with us for long and even today and they are providing us with their feelings be? collections too , how will Prof. Ntsanwisi , the leader of the Gazankulu homeland has written a letter to Pretoria in which he said : " I don't want to negotiate nor talk to the government of Lebowa nor talk to the Chief Minister of Lebowa about the land issue . " If the Cabinet was correct with us , it should have told us this matter because they have seen the letter or they have heard about the letter . The hon . Mr M.C. Botha told them that in Pretoria in one of the negotiations of the land issue . I am refusing that point that the honourable member from Sekhukhuneland Mr. M.J. Phasha was telling us that Prof. Ntsanwisi the leader of the Shangaans is prepared to talk with us . He is prepared . MR M.J. PHASHA : On a point of order , Mr Speaker . My point of order is that I am misquoted . I didn't say the professor said anything . But I said what is written in the newspaper . MR M.W. KGATLA : A memorandum has been prepared by Prof. Ntsanwisi . It is in Pretoria.I've got a copy of it along the land issue . He is now demanding more than what you have seen in the east . And he says if the Central Government is not to go and do according to his suggestions then it is violating its own policy of separate development . A delegation from Sekhukhuneland , one of the members was the hon . Godfrey Sekhukhune went to Mapoch . They were trying to negotiate with Mapoch to join us . This is what Kgoši Mapoch told them and this is what he is going to tell them when we are going on continuing negotiating with him. He says : "You Lebowa have already received self government ; you have already travelled a distance in your government ; you have already got many things . Leave me alone so that I can also travel that distance . When I have reached your status and have my own property , it is then that we can talk about joining one another ." Those are some of the facts you may get from your discussion with Mapoch . And that is the truth that we are going to get such a reply from Kgoši Mapoch . Before I sit down I want to repeat one or two things on the discipline which we shall receive from Pretoria as I have said . We were meant to be number two following Matanzima ; if not we should have been at least number three . But presently Pretoria says we don't want anything and as such that is why they will take over our farms in the east and south as well as in the west . They will discipline us until we come to our senses as it is their contend . The Benbo has already given the consolidation of Pretoria and it is final . We can shout them next year and the next 15 years . Nobody will ever listen to us . If Pretoria is angry you must be careful . Do you want to see what happens if Pretoria is angry?

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MR L.C. MOTHIBA : Mr Speaker , I just want to indicate one very serious disadvantage of our discussion . You can leave ^ other things and devote yourself on a strategical approach to Mapoch . That should be thought twice . To me this is a very soft spot and we should refrain ourselves from discussing it in public like this . Normally , when one is going to negotiate with someone one usually does not come to the conclusion before one hears what that man has to say . It is much of a strategy than reality . Just open facts . You may agree to protect him in the constitution whereas he already knows about everything concerning the whole set up or he might not be interested in that . Whatever offer you may promise him , he has already got advices from some people . Now that they know our strategy they may even destroy it before you can get over there . My suggestion is that we could discuss this issue in the afternoon when we close . We could just remain as members but unofficially like this and we discuss this issue with the Cabinet . As it is already a period now he will build up a resistance . Hon . members if one tribe is going to attack another tribe , the former will not reveal its manner and pattern of the attack to the latter . It is for our Cabinet to discuss this issue unofficially and they go and use whatever ammunitions we can supply them with , come back again and we discuss privately and not in an open air . Mr Speaker , I am not trying to stop the honourable members to continue but I am just indicating that we might be careless in treating this matter before it reaches the ears of Mapoch . You are aware of the fact that everything that you are now speaking is being recorded and tomorrow we have nobody to blame but ourselves . In any discussions there are some people who bring about facts while others are destroying , so if you keep on discussing this matter in public all this information may get into his ears before you go over to him . Ultimately he might lengthen the time to meet for discussions so that he may prepare himself thoroughly . That is my opinion , Mr Speaker . I am just appealing to the hon . Chief Minister and the House to agree that this point should be left and be discussed in an unofficial meeting . MR A.S.MAHEANGU : Mr Speaker , I understand Mapoch issue very clearly . The Hon . Kgatla has heard me when he says that Godfrey Sekhukhune and others have once met Mapoch . Mapoch does not stray from joining us he is totally and whole heartedtly prepared to join Lebowa . But that should be conditional . According to his will he must have his own property and authority first . He should have self government like Lebowa and thereafter it is then that Mapoch and Lebowa can work in conjuction . That is to safe guard the period when the two parties i.e. Lebowa and Mapoch disintergrate so that each party should choose its own direction equipped with responsibility , the government and the people as well as the land . That is all about Mapoch's intention whenever the time has ripen to discuss with Lebowa . But still you must remember that when you want to discuss with Mapoch , Mabena should also be included because the latter is the chief of the Ndebeles . Whenever you pay a visit to Mapoch Mabena should also be visited . My fellow men , it is logic that Mapoch should be given a land like any other government . We have wasted a lot of time before we could have talked to Mapoch since the formation of the territorial authority . Last Saturday there were messsengers from

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Kgoši Mabena at our Kgoši's kraal to inform us that we were invited for discussions at their place as they have received territorial authority and wanted to form a homeland for the Ndebeles . They have said that all the past grudges and squabbles should be forgotten so that we could meet them peacefully at Hammanskraal . I agree with the honourable member Mr L.C. Mothiba by saying that we should put this matter aside and discuss it behind closed doors . The Chief Minister should have called us before and asked us separately whether this issue should be discussed in this House . Or else we should have delegated some few members here to go and negotiate with Kgoši Mapoch so that we could discuss the issue on their return . Kgoši Mapoch is not worried about anything because he has received his government . We the Lebowa are sick and therefore it is our duty to consult the doctor . Mapoch has got no worry We should go to Mapoch . We are not fighting with him . But you must remember that the Mapoch people are already holding some elections to occupy ministerial portfolios in their government . So whenever you invite them to join you , are you going to give them the portfolios of Cabinet ministers? It is funny because we also do want them. It is long that we have been in this parliament ; we should be elected as ministers . We are looking at you and we can even see you . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Thank you , Mr Speaker . What now remains is just a conclusion . But then this House doesn't want to come to an agreement . It is clear that before the sunset Mapoch would have known everything that is said in this House . My suggestion is that we should appoint a commission of inquiry about the land issue . MR T.S. TLAKA: Point of order , Mr Speaker . There has been a motion moved by the hon . Mr L.C. Mothiba seconded by the hon . Mr Andries Mahlangu . I would like to know whether this motion should be further motivated .

THE SPEAKER : Honourable members that motion was not correctly moved and the hon . Andries Mahlangu did not second the motion openly . MR L.C. MOTHIBA : Mr Speaker , accordingly move that we suspend these discussions of Mapoch issue until the Chief Minister and his Cabinet can discuss it with us unofficially ; and then we can probably discuss it in this House when they come back . Mr Speaker , I am just writing the resolution I will send it to you . MR A.S. MAHLANGU :

Mr Speaker, I am fully seconding

him . MR T.S. ILAKA: Mr Speaker , we have that Act 21 of 1971 which makes a whole list of things that this House has no right to talk about . The Cabinet has to get permission to approach the big boss there to get permitted to effect any changes to then. So , my suggestion is that the Cabinet should approach the State President to allow them to give the suggestion that these items that are listed as out of bounds in that Act 21 of 1971 , be declared within bounds .

375 THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker and honourable members I thought I would be allowed a minute or two just to say briefly about my reaction . I have been listening to the debate after this land matter has been also decided upon . MR S.H. NKADIMENG : Mr Speaker I have been listening to the Chief Minister when he was suggesting that the trust lands should be allotted to the Lebowa Government . I would say that it would be far better if the Chief Minister would consult the Central Government on this land issue and that he should inform the authorities of pretoria that these lands should be given to Lebowa Government and the people of Lebowa . The Central Government cannot say that it has no power over these trust lands whereas it has taken them from us by force .

THE SPEAKER : Order the honourable member . not speaking by law when you say that .

You are

MR S.H. NKADIMENG : Honourable members , my suggestion was that the Chief Minister and the Cabinet should contact the Central Government with the aim that they should give the people of Lebowa those lands . If those lands are bought , they should be manipulated . I am referring this to the lands which are abandoned in Sekhukhune land whereas people are overpopulated on a piece of land . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Hon . members I am grateful to know that it is your wish that we approach the Central Government on the land issue and ask for the transfer to be effected . Secondly I note that you would like to go in camera on the question of how to reach the strategy regarding the contact we have to make with Kgoši Mapoch . But , Mr Speaker , I can assure you that in my experience not only although I include my experience here but also elsewhere this is not a dead secret . I have seen it in a wonderful way , people knowing what is happening in the offices here and even pulling out correspondence from offices . And this House is a public House for public debate . And I was reacting to the sentiments expressed here which some of them were devasting . The members here were saying that there must be a bloodshed between us and some of our neighbours . Some of us were pointing fingers at innocent people like civil servants . Most careless thing that you could ever listen to in the parliamentary debate ; and nobody was under any misapprehension that these things will remain here . They will reach not only Kgosi Mapoch but they will also reach the world outside right in London , in Washington , in Paris and even in the Communist China . I know the remark that we should go in camera . I know what they try to exclude . They are not going to have secrecy . They want to exclude some undersirable elements . But the thing will come out in the usual way because you can't keep it inside your pockets . Mr Speaker , Sir , as I say that I am very grateful that we go into camera and talk there a little more relaxed , I want to stress this fact quite clearly that when I approached the matter , I approached it in the spirit of negotiation . To negotiate is not to dictate to anybody . We are not going out to Pretoria with the blue print . We are not going out to Kgoši Mapoch with the blue print and say this is to be done ; we say so . No! We approach him with the open mind to say: "Here is the problem ; we would like to help one another in solving it . " That is negotiation .

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Now, I will like to criticize something which I despise very severely . If there is anybody who is well informed about Prof. Ntsanwisi and other homeland leaders , it's me . It happens to be so . It could be somebody else but it happened to be so under the present circumstances . Only last Saturday I was with Prof. Ntsanwisi . What the honourable Kgatla is saying, is all together absolutely without foundation and I am looking upon him if necessary with contempt because he is misleading this House deliberately to damage . I am telling you^ the absolute truth .. Mr Speaker and honourable members , the transfer of farm is not effected anywhere . Anybody who is telling you that the Central Government is transferring - giving legal documents to any homeland government is misleading you . Not even the Transkei . This matter is succeeded in streamlining . All the questions about transfer of the territory - it's terrible ; it is a big shame to try and tell untruth in this House . And that rumours has got this about Pretoria , Pretoria has got integrity . Do you think Pretoria has no integrity? If Pretoria wants to tell this Government why they do not want to give it land , why should they go and have the rumours and pass them over to the honourable member from Bolobedu? What confidence has Pretoria in a member of the consitituency I have just mentioned? Those who go with stories , and trouble monkers throwing their tongues all over the place ; irresponsible fighting do not belong to us here . I am looking forward , Mr Speaker , to the camera meeting which I believe will come out with real solutions of our problem . But these , I must emphasize are heavy state affairs . They are heavy state responsibilities and must not be spoken off by trouble mongers . THE SPEAKER :

The House will adjourn until 14h15 for

lunch . THE HOUSE RESUMED AT 14h15 . ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER . THE SPEAKER : We shall continue with item 8. I hope the honourable House knows about our local ochestra which is busy practicing every now and then . This ochestra has promised to come and give you a little intertainment tomorrow evening to show their progress . I think the honourable members will be present . The time will be 19h00 . The honourable members should come to recreate . You will still remember that yesterday I made mention of a Resolution Committee . Thus the honourable House should prepare itself for the nomination of the members of this committee . The members of the committee should be at least five and not more than eleven in number . The chairman of the committee will be nominated by the Cabinet whereas the terms of office of the committee will be decided by this House . The said committee will take the record of the resolutions resolved by this House . I leave that to you . THE SELECTION OF THE RESOLUTION COMMITTEE . KGOŠI T.J. MOTHAPO : Mr Speaker , this issue of the Resolution Committee , is not a problematic issue to such an extend that it should consist of more than five members . THE SPEAKER :

Order!

I speak where there is law .

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I am not forming this committee .

KGOŠI T.J. MOTHAPO : Mr Speaker , when the report of Mr Ramusi and Mr Mothapo was read there were only two members constituting this committee . Hence I suppose it will be better to include only one member to this committee of two . I don't think it is necessary to include one of the ministers unless it is a select committee . THE SPEAKER : Honourable members , we shall follow the procedure because this committee is also a select committee . It will depend on you on the number of members you wish to nominate . MR S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr Speaker , I move that we should have only three names as I have a good reason in saying that . It is not so difficult to write down resolutions . But at the same time you find that perhaps one or two members of this resolution committee may be absent from the House . If one is not present then the other will continue with the work . I take it this way , Mr Speaker , that in fact one honourable member of this House can do the job . But , for advisory purposes the other can be there to assist . So , in the absence of one member the other two can be able to do the job .

THE SPEAKER : Order! The Honourable House can just give me names so that we can proceed . I will no longer allow any debate on this issue . THE MINISTER OF HEALTH : Mr Speaker, I suggest the name of the honourable Mr T.S. Tlaka , who is well experienced in this type of the job . MR S.S. MOTHAPO :

He is seconded .

KGOŠI A.S. MOLEPO :

I suggest the name of Mr S.S.

Mothapo . MR A.S. MAHLANGU: KGOSI

.M.MALEKANE :

Seconded . I suggest the name of Mr M.J.

Phasha . MR M.W. KGATLA : Mr Speaker , I disassociate myself with the Resolution Committee completely .

THE SPEAKER : We have here three names viz . Hon . T.S. Tlaka , Hon . S.S. Mothapo and Hon . M.J. Phasha and these people will consitute the Resolution Committee . We shall now continue . QUESTION

TIME :

KGOŠI K.P. PHASHA : Mr Speaker , I have a question to ask . I have realised that the Radio Bantu does not announce the names of the members mentioned in this House like the names we have suggested for this committee . So , what could be the reason thereof?

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THE SPEAKER : Order! This is a question time and as such we shall now continue with the question . The honourable member is out of order . MR S.S. MOTHAPO : Point of order , Mr Speaker . It seems there is a problem here . Most of the honourable Cabinet Ministers who are supposed to answer the questions are not in the House now. To give an example , we have dealt with the Department of the Chief Minister and he is not around in here . We have dealt with the Department of Works and the Minister concerned is not in here . We have also dealt with the Department of Education , the Minister is not here . What's wrong with these people Mr Speaker? THE SPEAKER : What the honourable Mr Mothapo has just said is true . So , let us just send one of the Ministers to go and call them . MR S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr Speaker I want to make a follow up to the questions I put forth to the honourable the Minister of Education yesterday . Mr Speaker , there is something wihich confused me in the statements made by the honourable the Minister of Education , particularly when he deals with how the estimates are being determined . THE SPEAKER : I would suggest that we suspend the question of education for the time being because we shall deal with it in the committee stage . NOTICES OF MOTIONS . KGOSI T.J. MOTHAPO : Mr Speaker , I am giving a notice of a motion within six days to come that every high school and training colleges in Lebowa having boarding and lodging should have at least a Zulu and a Tswana during vernacular period .

KGOŠI A.S. MOLEPO : Mr Speaker , I am giving a notice of a motion that 40% of Lebowa tax paid by the different communities , be distributed among such particular communities respectively. MR S.P. KWAKWA: Here is my notice of a motion , Mr Speaker : "That in order to alleviate and with a view of the total elimination of the gravity occasioned by the critical shortage of Science teachers in post primary schools , Lebowa Government should make bursaries available to students willing to read for the degrees of Bachelor of Science plus a professional certificate so that on completion of their studies they should be under obligation made to accept employment to serve Lebowa for an initial period of five years . " MR M.W. KGATLA : THE SPEAKER :

Mr Speaker, he is seconded .

This House will now go into a committee

stage . MR S.P. KWAKWA: Mr Speaker , I will be going to the boarders . I am leaving you on the 11th . Couldn't this motion of mine be tabled before that date? THE SPEAKER : If you can't be present , give that motion to another member because the motion should first go via the Cabinet . Reserve that perhaps you will delay on your journey .

COMMITTEE STAGE . THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Honourable members , the House is now in committee . When we adjourned yesterday we were still putting some questions to the Minister of Education . According to my list I still have one more member who wanted to put up questions . That will be Kgoši Riba . KGOŠI M.B. RIBA : Thank you , Mr Speaker . My questions are clear and precise . But when I was listening to the Minister answering some questions I have realised that he was not answering directly . My first question reads as follows : Why did the name of our school- Mohlorutsi be changed to Sekabate? Secondly , who has suggested the change of this school's name? Thirdly, why soes your government find difficulty in giving us the reasons of changing this name ? As you have told me when I have called at your office that this matter does not concern your department ; but that of the Chief Minister , are you still maintaining that even today? I also inquired whether the hon . Mr Kganane , who is in his department does not know about this problem . The honourable the Minister nearly committed himself by attempting to answer the question but put it another way round . He said that he will inquire from Mr Kganane privately . I was not satisfied about this . When we were surprised at home , we went to the inspector of the schools and he gave us a letter which we delivered to Thabamoopo . We were told that Mr Kganane had gone outside the campus . Secondly you denied that this change of the name of our school was not your issue . Mr Chairman , allow me to explain the reason why I am quoting the name of Mr Kganare . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr Chairman , I think the honourable speaker is out of order because he is mentioning the name of an official here and he has not complained formally to my department about that official . In my department if an official is wrong there is the school committee , the inspector and then the complaint comes to the office . It is only when it has failed through those channels that it should be brought here . I therefore plead with the speaker to make a formal charge through the right channel instead of dragging an official's name into this House before I or anybody in my department has heard what the reply of the man is .

KGOSI M.B. RIBA : Mr Chairman , it is a surprise to note that yesterday it was stated that the names of the seconded officials should not be quoted because such officials cannot reply to what is said to them ; but then there are still members in this House who do quote them . Our propounders of law such as Mr Mothiba and the honourable Minister who said I must not quote his name have emphasised this law. THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Order! Honourable member the chair does not side with anybody . The chair is proceeding according to the procedure . But each and every member wants to come out of trouble when trouble is amounting . So , to help the chair honourable members just go on with your facts and leave that name out please . The truth will come out .

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KGOŠI M.B. RIBA : This reminds me of what our parents To tell say : "The doctor who beats my mother is not a doctor" this House an honest fact , the name ' Mohlarutsi ' did not come through us . It has come through the socalled gentleman whom I am forbidden to quote his name and other people who he knows . The Minister should reply to me who has changed the name . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Oh yes! I will answer him , Mr Chairman . The questions are just easy . I can follow that the honourable Kgoši Riba is worried about the man who is honoured by the community and whom he does not like .

KGOŠI M.B. RIBA: On a point of order . Mr Chairman , I would like the honourable Minister to withdraw his words that I don't like him . THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Order! Honourable members , please whatever you do give the interpreter time to do his job . If you stand up on a point of order wait until he has finished interpreting what the last speaker has said . The honourable M.B. Riba your pointo of order .

KGOŠI M.B. RIBA : The Honourable our Minister is out of order when he says : "Whom Kgoši Riba does not like . " He should tell this House what he is really meaning when saying So. THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The honourable , Mr Chairman , I have said that it seems so . So I am withdrawing my words that the honourable Kgoši Riba does not like the man . What we are discussing now it's an old story . The name of Mohlarutsi and that of Sekabate has long being suggested . THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Order ! I would request the Hon . Minister to answer the honourable Kgoši Riba . He has tabulated his questions . Otherwise when you finish you start again . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : What is being said here involves many individuals . So how should I answer this complex question? I am now replying . "Who has altered the name?"- I don't know. "Why is that name altered? " - I don't know. Why are you finding it difficult to explain this crucial issue which bring about a clash amoung the community members ? My followers and I came to your office and you told us that this issue is not yours but it is for the Chief Minister's department . " Yes , that is not ours because whenever a person has built a school and has a committee and thereafter makes an application to us that we should control it , we take the application that way . If another one comes and say that that particular school should be closed , when it has its owner , we don't take that word ; we can only call the owner of that school for discussions . When there is a person who fights with the kgoši concerning property on kgoši's land , we retreat because the small one wants to deprive the bigger one of his property . If the bigger says we should not entervene , there is nothing we can do . We can also not bring the two fighting magoši to court . What should be done as a solution , is that the kgoši should instruct his school committee to write a letter to the government and tell it that they do not want that name . If they can send that

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letter to the inspector of schools we shall receive it . Our department does not refuse any letter which is from the inspector and being signed by the school committee that they do not want a particular name . We do not name the schools . I would like to conclude by saying that the kgoši should go to his school committee and instruct them to write a letter and send it to the school inspector and we shall consider it fairly . Another question is about the honourable Mr Kganane , whether it is fair that he maintains that he does not know anything concerning this issue . I have not yet asked him about this . I will contact him later .

KGOŠI M.B. RIBA: Do you know , honourable Minister that we at home know nothing about that simple school ? It was started by his own department and the said committee which we do not know . One of his department has advised us that we should instead of taking a long way and a tiresome one , we should only expect how he can favour us . We have tried by all means . The number of the file containing this information is A14213 dated 76-05-12 . All these things are in your office sir . MR N.R. MAMPURU : I have noticed that the Department of education has been allotted a limited bill . At Sekwati village people have collected money and built a school for rand scheme will be maintained . People became discouraged on hearing that there is no money . What did the Minister of Education say when he realised that he was not given enough money? Don't you see that this is a drawback in education? Thank you !

KGOŠI L.L. NTWAMPE : I just want to know from the Minister of Education whether a person should write an examination to become a school principal ? ( Interjection ) KGOŠI M.M. MATLALA : On a point of order , Mr Chairman . Mr Chairman , infront of you there is a rule that whenever a person is out of order you must command him to sit down and stop speaking . So , by way of procedure you should sit down , Mr Chairman , so that this House can continue smoothly . KGOŠI M.E. MOGASHOA : Mr Chairman , I don't know whether this House will allow me to put the honourable Kgoši Riba's question very clear . We all know, Mr Chairman , that at Kgoši Riba's village there is a great confusion . I would like to suggest that the Minister of Education and his department should trace this matter back to the offices . MR H.M. MODJADJI : Mr Chairman , I have only two or three questions to ask . 1. I would like to know from the Minister of Education what they really do consider as important when they are supposed to have a circuit in particular districts . 2. When two districts fall under one circuit with each district having sixty and forty schools respectively, where is the office situated? 3. Is it possible that when a young girl has been seduced by a young boy and the latter is suspended from a school to be admitted at another school even though the mother of the girl has informed the principal about the charge laid on the boy by the previous school ?

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4 . Is it possible that a community school can function without a school committee? 5. When a member of a school committee has submitted a letter of resignation to his colleagues and has mentioned that neither the chairman of the school committee nor the principal should not plead for clarification of resignition , is that procedural ? 6. Do the school committee and the tribe concerned of a particular community school have any right to query about the expenditure of money of such a school ?

THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr Chairman , I will try to start by answering question number one . To have a circuit many things are involved . In the first place the number of schools is considered . Secondly , the journey taken to the school . Whether the single circuit is able to cater the schools around . Whether there is enough money to pay the people who will be working under that circuit . Whether there is money to build schools . Whether there will be a place where people can stay while working . There are many other things to consider . The second question was when there are sixty schools and forty schools respectively , where should the circuit office be situated? What is considered is the convenient place between these schools concerning communication and other things mentioned above . Then came the question of suspension . When a pupil is suspended from attending lessons at that school but at all other schools . The school which admits him during his suspension will be acting contrary to the law. Of course such things may happen . You may find a certain child of teacher so and so being suspended but attending school secretively at another school in another place . That can happen without the knowledge of the Department of Education . But then if the department can know about that the principal who admitted that pupil will be in danger because he will not be punishing that kid and at the same time he will not be acting according to rules and regulations of education . Whenever a child is suspended, that is written in his file . Whenever a child is transfered from one school to another there must always be a transfer letter proving the reasons of the child for leaving the previous school . Well , if there are some people who are doing such an unlawful activity they will be brought under cross questioning as soon as they are found . " Is it possible for a school to function without a school committee?" To answer that question I would say that according to our rules and principles the school cannot function without the school committee . One other thing is that whenever a school is registered , there should be a school committee.elected to choose and look for teachers . When people make a request for a new school and that is approved , they should elect a school committee which will supervise the school as a whole . There are some occasions where you may find that a school is functioning without a school committee . The members of a school committee may feel unsatisfied about the activities and the manners of the teachers or the system of the school and then they terminate their duties without the inspector informing our department . That school may continue functioning without our knowledge that there is no school committee . But it will be functioning illegally .

The committee members are supposed to terminate their duties after three years . So , if the committee resigns , consequently there must be a new committee to further their duties . If a committee has just disappeared conveniently the school functions with the principal doing the duties of principalship and that of a committee . We have heard much complaint about this . Such things do happen ; but that is by mistake because the school is for the community and it is under the kgoši who must know whenever there is no committee and should inform us so that we can see to it that a new committee is elected . According to the rules there is nothing which can take place at a school without the knowledge of the school committee . But there are some other things which can be done by the principal without informing the school committee . Whenever money is used or received , the school committee should know . When the school buildings need repair the school committee should know . Educational and recreational journeys undertook by the pupils should be known to the school committee . It was also asked whether it is not fair that whenever a member of a school committee resigns he should give some reasons for his resignation . It is according to our rules and principles that a member should give some reasons for his resignition . But it happens sometimes that a member decides not to go any longer to the school surroundings nor attending meetings held by his colleagues without notifying them of his absence . In the case of such a member there is a rule that empowers other members to report his absence to the inspectors so that his space can be filled because it is maintained that he will have absconded as well as deserted his position . Coming to the question that : " Is it not the right of the community members to examine the use of their money in the school?" I should say in the first place that any purse in the school is raised by them . It is the school committee that establishes a school fund . So it is the school committee working in conjunction with the tribe that must decide what fund must be established for what purpose . The regulation says the money established for a particular purpose must be used for that purpose . For instance if a fund has been established for remunerating a privately paid teacher , it must be used for that purpose only . As soon as that service is no longer needed the collection of fund must stop . A departmental regulation says that before the end of March every year a meeting of all the parents of the children at that school must be called . In that meeting a financial report for everything extended , all the money that came in and that was used and the balance must be given to the parents . That is why we stress this every year that the principal and the school committee should stick to the orders given by the inspector of schools so that the parents should be satisfied about the expenditure and the saving of money . We have also laid down a rule that all the books of the school showing the expenditure on money should be submitted every year for auditing . Usually , what is read to the parents is exactly what is done by the auditor after completing his job . Hence I should maintain that the answer to the question about the parents examining their coffers is satisfactorily elaborated . I still have some few questions which I can answer very briefly . The honourable Mr G.M. Sekhukhune has asked why

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the matriculation certificates are delayed . This is also a headache to us in this department because the candidates wait for them for a long time before they can receive them . These certificates are not issued nor delayed by our department here but are from Pretoria . Even we too , are not satisfied about this delay . The honourable Nkadimeng has asked about the commercial schools and their whereabouts . These schools are not government schools but private schools . We are still negotiating to examine their syllabuses so that we can recognise them as government schools One is at Mahwelereng and the other at Sekhukhuneland but I cannot say on what farms . I will try to bring a full answer later . In fact these schools are at the moment run by individuals . The honourable Kgoši Malekane has asked about rents paid in the locations and where they are taken to as well as their functions or value . To answer this question will be just to commit myself because I don't know about rent . This question can be answered by the Department for the Interior . The Honourable B.K. Matlala has asked when the double session will be done away with . Well , today I don't want to speak about money . We don't have teachers because we do not have money . Hence that is why we are compelled to have double sessions in our schools because we have many children enrolling each year . As soon as we have enough money we shall employ sufficient teachers so that we can do away with this double session system . One other question is about when I will start paying the school committee members . At the moment I cannot promise you to pay the committee as we have no enough money to pay teachers as I have said above . We are still lacking the sum of buying some requirements and equipments of the schools . As soon as we have money and can afford to buy all these necessary things and finance teachers , it is then that we can consider the issue of the school committee members . Mr Chairman , I will stop here since I will be at the moment looking for and considering relevant answers to the questions directed to me . MR M.J. PHASHA : Mr Chairman , I wanted to speak when the question of the honourable Kgoši Riba was answered . I realised that in that issue where Kgosi Riba seems to have his brother as an induna under his jurisdiction , it appears to me according to the views experienced by Kgoši Riba that his brother may have somehow applied for a school without the consultation of the honourable Kgoši Riba . And as I see it the honourable Riba is not against the school but he is against the approval of the school without his consultation . In the reply I don't know whether I quite understood the Minister . He said to the honourable Kgosi Riba : " ..... go and talk to the school committee to write to the Department for the change of the name ." Now my point is that I don't know whether he refers to the school committee which will be appointed by Kgoši Riba or the school committee which is already appointed without the consultation of kgoši Riba . My fear is if by so saying Kgoši Riba is referred to the school committee which he has no power in which he did not approve of its election , then I think the question will not be solved because he has no way- out into that school committee .

To add to that I feel the Department of education should take care of the application for erections of schools under juris diction of magoši . In the area of my kgoši the area is ex-

385 tending too far so much that if I am at the end of the point I may do a thing of this nature ; as a result one may find that the kgoši doesn't know of a school which I will apply for through the committee I will have appointed in that area and send the name of the school which I will have named after me . Maybe the regulations do not give provision to that effect . But I feel if there is no provision in the form of application there should be where the kgoši of the area should give his approval in the forms . MR P.L. KEKANA : On a point of order , Mr Chairman . This issue was said yesterday by the Minister of Education . He has replied much to this . So , I can't see the reason why we should hummer again on this point . Some of us are even feeling exhausted and sleepy about this redundancy .. The Minister has indicated it clearly that this issue does not concern him but the magoši and their indunas . MR D.J. NKOANE : I have only two questions to ask , Mr Chairman . In the first place I would like to know what precautions does the Minister of Education take on the riots cause in schools by the pupils . Secondly I would like to know what should be done by the school committee when there is a clash between the committee and the community with the teacher , after the school committee has consulted the school inspector who does not want to consider the case . MR S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr Chairman , I have only one question to ask . This is in connection with the estimates . The question is : "Who decides the priorities ? " i.e. in the presence of making the estimates . The honourable chair will remember that I did not ask this question but we as members of this honourable House always have the impression that whatever a thing is in the estimates is from the Cabinet of Lebowa . If there is something beyond that we would like to know how it is happening ; ; who actually is responsible . THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : All these questions can be answered except the last one which is a repetition . I have answered this question yesterday . Perhaps if this question can be directed to the people above maybe a satisfactory answer can be achieved . Coming to the question of the honourable Mr Nkoane concerning riots caused by pupils in schools and our precautions , I would say that there is no precautionary measures we can take . These riots are caused by many factors . We know that at school there is a staff and the suitable equipments . The staff is fully qualified and suitable for the didactical situation which the child should explore . On the other hand the school is the situation fully equipped with the necessary implementations to mould the child educationally . Thus we try to modify and improve this situation of the child and teacher relationship so that each of the two should feel satisfied . To pinpoint at what causes the strikes at schools is not a possible probability. Some of the strikes emanate from the influence of some our members of parliament in here . They encourage the pupils to strike . At other occasions these are caused by the misunderstanding between either the kgoši of the community or the induna with the community or the induna with the teacher . Whereas other strikes accrue from the dissatisfaction of the pupils about the teaching method employed in the school , rules the andlhaws , bad communication between the teacher and child , newhealthy food ,

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corporal punishment etc. Other strikes are detrimentally opposite to the ones I referred above . These are caused by a competition . The particular pupils can say that since such a school has striked they should also strike . Therefore , an answer to this question that what do we do to stop these strikes , is rather impossible . Coming to the question that : " When the community and the kgoši are not satisfied about the principal of the school and the school inspector does not take that into consideration , what do the two then do?" MR D.J. NKOANE : Point of order , Mr Chairman . I have said : "What should the school committee do ?" I did not say the community . The community is through with this issue and it has reported this to the school committee which then transferred this to the school inspector who in turn does not give any response . So , what should the committee do in order to report back to the community? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : Mr Chairman , this question seems to be very easy to answer when listening to it . But this is a case which does not look the same as porridge which you can start cutting at all angles . If the inspector does not transfer the case to the above officers , he may have some reasons . Because he is the man who is representing us in the school , if possible he may resolve to discuss with the people concerned and settle the case before it can reach our offices . If the inspector does not transfer the case soon , it is of course the right of the school committee to inquire into the matter . To cut short to the answer I can say , when the school committee has confronted the school inspector with a case to solve , they should definitely go straight to him again to ask why he has not yet considered it . If they have realised that they have inquired many times without any response , it is then that they can go through correct channels of writing a letter of reference , go via the inspector to attach his signature to the letter after reminding him , and thereafter lodge their complain with my department . That will be of evidence that they did not cheat nor ignore the school inspector in coming straight to the higher authorities . He should allow them to come over to our offices . They go straight to him with a letter informing him that now that they are not satisfied about his lack of response they are therefore going over to the head offices . It is then that they can send a delegate with that letter to our offices and a letter from the inspector approving that they i.e. the school committee has been in his office for discussion . This procedure is to avoid the ignorance of the inspector by the people and to avoid the complain by the inspector that he has been sued of something which he does not know . By that I think I have answered the question of the honourable questioner thoroughly and satisfactorily . MR GODFREY M. MATHEBE : Mr Chairman , it is clear that such irregularities do happen at schools . If the inspector does not allow the school committee to approach the Department of Education , knowing that if he allows them his bad business will be revealed to the department and the school committee goes on itself and explain to the department that the inspector does not want to give them a permission , does the Department of Education

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recognise them or consider their issue or does it turn them back? THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION : The honourable questioner it is still simple when the inspector denies the school committee a permission to come over to our offices . In that case the induna or the kgoši of that community can attach his signature or a tribal official stamp on their letter as a proof that the committee has been at the inspector's office and the latter did not give them a permission to contact the Department of Education's offices . I don't mean that the kgoši or the induna should take that case but they should act precautionarily as the last resort whenever an inspector does not provide the school committee with a permission . The question of Kgošigadi Dinkwanyane is about the pupil who is in J.C. and being provided with a bursary and whether he can still qualify to obtain such a bursary while doing teacher training . Yes , that is possible . "Is it possible that the schools erected in the years 1974 and 1975 to get also upliftment of a rand for rand scheme? " We shall depend on the sum available in our coffers this year . The last question is about the fact that the school committee should be provided with the book containing rules . This has been considered . And at the moment we have tried to supply each and every school to have such books so that the school committee can always refer . Those who have not yet received them they can apply through the inspector of schools so that they can be provided with those books , hence they will know the rules applied in schools . Mr Chairman , I am still trying to get some answers to the remaining questions . MR A.S. MAHLANGU : Point of order , Mr Chairman . I have a word to say concerning the questions and answers given . We can remain the whole year round asking some questions but the Minister will not be able to answer them all . It will be far better for those who still have some questions to jot them down and send them in a written form to the Minister so that he can answer them during questions time . I would like to move that we should go item by item .

KGOSI M.E. MOGASHOA : Mr Chairman , I second the mover that we should go item by item . ( THE HOUSE ACCEPTED THAT IT SHOULD GO ITEM BY ITEM AND THEN THE VOTE OF EDUCATION WAS THEN DISPOSED ) . THE DEPUTY CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Chairman , I move an unopposed motion that this House should adjourn since we no longer have any business . THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : On that note the House shall adjourn until tomorrow at 10h00 . THE HOUSE

ADJOURNED AT 15h35 .

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1977 :

WEDNESDAY

MAY

THE

4TH .

THE SITTING COMMENCES AT 10h20 . THE SPEAKER READS A PRAYER .

MR A.S. MAHLANGU: Mr Speaker , the munutes are in order and I move their adoption . MR D.J. NKOANE :

Mr Speaker , I second him .

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker and Honourable members it will be recalled that I made a request through you , that His Eccellency the Commissioner- General help us with a brief explanation of three clauses in the Rules of Procedure . I would request you with respect to grant his Excellency the Commissioner-General the opportunity to do so , to the advantage of the House , Mr Speaker , Sir! THE COMMISSIONER- GENERAL : Mr Speaker , so I don't want to take much of your valuable time . I understood it that your difficulty is mainly the question about increases or decreases in the amounts under discussion in committee . I think I must read to you what the Procedure is in the Cape Town Parliament . There it says " a Private member may not move an amendment seeking to increase an amount provided in a vote , but he may speak against it , on the grounds that he considers it inadequate " . This is very clear , Mr Speaker , that an ordinary member cannot propose the increase in any vote . He may speak against it and may criticise it , but he cannot move an amendment . Further , Sir , " a member may not move that money should be diverted to any other purpose in any way. " Mr Speaker , all these things are in your own Rules too . I want to refer to your Homelands Act No. 21 of 1971. Now refer ring to funds it says " The Legislative Assembly shall not originate or pass any vote or any motion for appropriation of any part of the revenue fund or for inspection of any section or impose for any purpose unless the Cabinet has recommended to the Assembly that provision be made for this specific purpose for which appropriation is required . " Now , Sir , I ask the interpreter not to try to interprete this because it is a defficult language . I also find it difficult in Afrikaans but it means this : that any amendment which can be moved must be moved by a Minister of the Cabinet . And this stands in your Act and you cannot change or contravene that . Now, Sir , in your Rules of Procedure , you will find that provision is being made on how to implement these words of theirs . Part thirteen of your Rules of Procedure with which you are all supplied and a part 13 we have a description of the Procedure affecting financial matters . Now the main point is that the Cabinet must recommend financial matters . Now Rule no . 129 reads as follows : " The Legislative Assembly shall not pass any motion , Bill or incidental provision in any Bill for the appropriation of any funds from the Lebowa Revenue or for the imposition of any tax or imposed without the

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the recommendation of the Cabinet . " So Mr Speaker , this has been written into your Rules also . There is also in no . 129 the indication that should the Cabinet wish to amend , it should do that in writing , in a letter to the Secretary of the House . Now, Sir , there are enough simple indications in the Rules 130 to 139 about the handling by the Chairman and by the members , of a debate like this . And again in 140 you will read about the amendments to be moved by member of the Cabinet only . And then we come to 143 and 144 . Those two clauses deal with increase or deductions as such . I tell you that only the Minister can move an amendment which is to be made . And then in 144 there is the indication of how the Cabinet should handle an amendment which deals with the decrease of any vote . And that , Sir , is simple language . I do not think that I must spend your time in discussing that , but sir , I must emphasise two points . The one is that you have to respect your Act , and the Rules and Rules of Procedure . These are things that have been accepted by wise men over the world ; not by the South African Government or by your Cabinet only . And secondly , sir , what come before the committee of the House and what has been brought before the Committee by the Cabinet is not my work, not our officials ' work although we might have done a lot of work behind the scenes . The decision is that of the Cabinet . The donkey work might have been done behind the scene by officials , but the responsibility is that of the Cabinet . And I hope so , Mr Speaker , that discussing your different votes , that they follow your guidance and that of your Chairman , because you have studied these rules and the regulations and the Acts and I hope that the House will follow the guidance of the Speaker and the Chairman whenever these things pop up . Thank you , Mr Speaker . THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr Speaker and Honourable members , I am not trying to open any debate on the explanation given by his Excellency the Commission - General or to drag him into our politics , but I am just throwing light on the matter . I can only say that we are grateful that he gave some light in so far as Cape Town handles things and in so far as we ought to handle things . That , Mr Speaker , was not the only announcement I had this morning . There is another announcement I made . I think it's about two days ago that the M.P's from the Eastern Regions had gone out to make arrangments for the coming investigations by the commission of inquiry .

Mr Speaker , I am very pleased to see that majority of them have managed to return to the House . And through you , Mr Speaker , I would like to meet them this afternoon , shortly after the closure of the proceedings , in my office . That is , very shortly after the proceedings will have been closed here . They will also meet the Cabinet with me . ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE SPEAKER :

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THE SPEAKER : I would like to remind honourable members as I did a day before that our local ochestra will entertain the honourable members with music this evening at 7 p.m. NOTICES OF MOTIONS : KGOŠI T.J. MOTHAPO : Mr Speaker , I want to give notice of a motion that our Department of Education should be divorced from the Department of Bantu Education and be transferred to be controlled by the Transvaal Education Department . MR M.W. KGATLA : I give notice of a motion in connection with the irregularities and the hardships that the Lebowa people are experiencing under the Traffic Department of Lebowa . MR L.G. MATHOLE : Mr Speaker , Sir , I wish to request that for the sake of following sequences and ritaining the two motions that they be tabled to you , Mr Speaker . COMMITTEE STAGE : THE SPEAKER :

LEBOWA APPROPRIATION BILL , 1977 .

The House will go into committee .

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEE : Honourable house , the house is now in committee . The Minister of Agriculture and Forestry shall now deliver his speech . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY : Mr Chairman and honourable members , the existence of Lebowa's population of 1,24 million depends to a great extent on the agricultural resources available in the Lebowa homeland . It must be born in mind that the rainfall pattern together with the topography of the homeland governs the type of farming . From the total area in Lebowa , more than 80% is utilized as grazing whilst 15,6% is used for dryland crop production , 0,6% for forestry and 0,3% is under irrigation . Surveys of Lebowa's potential resources have already been made and as far as agriculture is concerned , it has been found that the agricultural production potential is very high . Approximately half of Lebowa has an annual rainfall of 400 to 600 millimeteres of rain while the rest receives 600 to 800 mm and even higher in the mountain regions . Citrus and subtropical fruits can be cultivated in the areas with a subtropical climate . Other areas are ideally suitable for forestry , for animal hasbandry and then there are the separated areas of 7 000 hectare of irrigable ground , where the most well known food products can be cultivated . But this Agricultural production potential can only be developed if each tribe in Lebowa utilises its tribal areas successfully without the application of adverse farming practises such as overgrazing and the poor utilisation of the cultivated land . Each tribe must be prepared to make use of the modern agricultural technical and economical practises propagated by my Department . To date 75% of Lebowa's area has been planned and I would like to emphasize that the infrastructure brought about by this , is not properly utilized . Tribal Authorities who have unplanned areas must apply to have the planning done to prevent further deterioration and soil erosion . This also applies to the protection and upkeep of existing

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works , e.g. fencing . Exceptional co-operation is obtained from some Tribal Authorities e.g. Mokerong district , with the upkeep of works . Income from the 9094 large live stock sold at the 158 livestock sales amounted to R1 230 781. With the application of good management the livestock farmers of Lebowa could earn at least R5 million from the present livestock numbers of 379 148 cattle and 392 753 small stock , more so if taken into consideration , that Lebowa's available grazing is overstocked to the extent of 90%. Unless serious attention is given to the problem of overgrazing it will result in the further deterioration of the veld and lower quality of the livestock . There are at present 50 000 surplus donkeys in the homeland . If this number can be reduced the problem of overgrazing can be eased . In co- operation with certain Tribal Authorities , my Department has already reduced the number of donkeys . I wish to appeal to all Tribal Authorities to support the campaign to solve the serious donkey problem . Veld fires continue to cause excessive damage to grazing areas , and other improvements . I am appealing to Tribal Authorities to give very serious attention to this matter . My Department is doing everything possible to improve the standard of the livestock by means of the purchase and breeding of improved animals for resale to the farmers . During the past year 202 bulls were made available for resale to farmers . The Kalkbank Tribal Co - operative breeding scheme already possesses 3 stud bulls and the quality of their animals is of a high standard . I would also like to mention that this scheme has already made 8 bulls available to farmers for stock improvements , which is a big achievement at this early stage . Milk scheme's have been established at Metz . Lorrain , Dingleydale , Makushane and Moletji where progress is reasonably good . Crops for feeding purposes have been established at the following sewerage schemes : Motetema , Leeuwfontein , Bolobedu , Seshego and Makhushane . A stock fattening scheme is also in progress at Moletji . The first 30 cattle will be accommodated in the fattening pens by May this year . The object here is to obtain higher prices for the Lebowa stock farmers . 4 Boergoat stud rams have been purchased and put into service for breeding at Tompi Seleka Agricultural College and Stellenbosch breeding station , and have produced 50 ram lambs for resale to farmers and there still some available . The Departmental livestock heards and flocks at Stellenbosch , Bellevue , Bulwer , Tompi Sleka Agricultural College and 12 Training centres of Lebowa , have increased and are at present as follows : 2 101 cattle , 487 goats and 419 sheep , which are being managed and controlled by Lebowa Officials . The book value of these animals are R219 160. The stock breed at Stellenbosch are exceedingly suitable for the mountainous areas . Production of wheat on the Project Irrigation schemes was more than 40 bags per hectare , where as on the settlement projects production was as low as 12 bags per hectare and less . The gross income per hectare can be improved by at least 50% on irrigation schemes if irrigation farmers gave proper attention to their lands and if they also accepted and put into practical use the advice and ideas made available to them by the officials of my Department .

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Efforts are being made by my Department where possible to supply institutions such as hospitals and schools with vegetables , fruit , milk and eggs . these are products cultivated and produced in Lebowa and will assure that money will remain in Lebowa . Not withstanding the good rains during the past year , dryland production was not as high as expected . This was due to the late arrival of the rains . There may be Tribal Authorities that may require assistance later in the year and the Departments concerned will have to keep this in mind . The shortage of ploughing units remains a problem and I wish to appeal to the Tribal Authorities that have tractors to see that these are kept in good working order . Tribal Authorities possess 99 ploughing units and 1003 are privately owned . If all these units are put into good working order , the position will be considerably eased . The shortage of ploughing units in Lebowa has already been brought to the Notice of the Lebowa Development Corporation and I believe that they are busy investigating the matter . Good progress is being made with the dryland projects in the Nebo district . It has been proved that a higher production is possible in these higher potential areas . Yield of 40 bags maize per hectare have already been obtained , and can still be increased . In general the dryland production is low and must be improved . In conjunction with the Tribal Authorities , the development of further projects is already taking place . With regards to the newly purchased farms , I am aware Tribal Authorities and private individuals have applied to lease these farms . I wish to emphasize that the allocation of these farms rests with the Chief Bantu Affairs Commissioner and the Department of Interior and not with my department . I am however of the opinion that these farms should be given out as larger farming units . My Department in close co-operation with the Lebowa Development Corporation is busy investigating the feasability of agricultural projects such as the production of Coffee , cultivation of groundnuts and sunflowers and chickens ( boilers ) . If these projects can be successfully established , it will be of great benefit to Lebowa . I wish to draw your attention to the fact that close co-operation between my Department and the Lebowa Development Corporation is of utmost importance to assure the success of the mentioned projects . My Department is in the process of establishing an egg production unit at Solomondale , which will eventually house 84 000 laying hens . This project will supply the needs of Lebowa citizens and institutions , such as Hospitals and schools . It will also produce a good income as well as limiting the out low of capital from the Homeland . To be of assistance to the farmers , 13 co- operatives were established and registered . Due to lack of proper Administration knowledge and support from the farmers , some did not function satisfactorily and unfortunately cancellations had to be recommended . As a result of the above mentioned problems , my Department created 13 clerical posts for co- operatives and have already assigned two of my staff members to assist in the Administrative work .

393

My Department assists the co-operatives financially by allocating funds for buildings and providing them with working capital . I would suggest to you to pay a visit to the newly built cooperative building of Kgoši B.K. Matlala to get an impression of what can be done . I must emphasize that co -operatives render a service to the farmers in more than one way . By supporting their own co-operatives farmers are eliminating the middle man and by ploughing back their profits in the co-operative are getting all the necessities such as seed , fertilizers , stock remedies etc. at a reduced price . From the 12 training centres , 256 courses were offered and attended by 2 188 farmers during the past year . 17 545 Farmers visited the various offices of the Extension Officers and up to 24 017 attended 327 farmers days during the past year . The Tompi Seleka Agricultural College has been enlarged so that the training of Development Officers , Technical staff and Stock- inspectors can be done . A start has already been made with these additional courses and for this purpose a Veterinary Surgeon has been made available to the Tompi Seleka College . It is also planned to train Forestry and Nature Conservation students in the near future . The necessary facilities will have to be established to cope with the abovementioned developments . It is also envisaged to start experimental work so that farmers can obtain practical information about various aspects . Short courses for officials and farmers will also be offered at the College . Soil analysis by the Planning section of my Department is still being applied and recommendations for proper fertilizations are made available to the farmers and also with cultivar research so that the appropriate crops can be cultivated . For the past two years the Regional show held at Lebowakgomo has been a great success . I still appeal for the loyal support of all concerned . The shows have established a fine bank balance over the past two years . A further appeal is that this show should develop to the standard of the Expo show held in Pretoria during the past year and visited by many of you . Then for which I am extremely grateful and proud , there are the Agricultural projects such as Sisal , Citrus and Forestry which are well established at the present moment and which provide the following excellent income : Sisal R413 000 R508 000 Citrus R609 344 Forestry These projects are presently being enlarged and consolidated and additional areas are being established annually according to the available funds . With the installation of a Automatic Decorticator at Chloe during the past year , the income of R413 000 can be increased consderably . A second Automatic Decorticator is also being planned for the foreseeable future at Globe , Mokerong district . I would like to remind you of the official opening on 28 April of the Chloe Sisal project , and trust you will be able to attend this function of my Department . Apart from the income supplied by these projects there is also income derived from such sources as treated poles which are used in Lebowa for fencing and building purposes . These projects also

394

provide work opportunities for hundreds of Lebowa citizens . The last year was generally successful in the Forestry section in Lebowa . Although the sawn timber market was poor , 70 000 cubic metres were sold to the two large sawmills and a market has been found for small lots of timber that could not be sold before . A new sawmill came into production near Welgevonden in February creating , employment for 200 Lebowa citizens . Local demand for poles remains good . In the forthcoming year the tanks for treating poles are to be extended and more telephone and transmission poles will be produced for the benefit of Lebowa . Attention has been given to the training of personel and courses have been arranged for foreman , forestguards and powersaw operators , with great success . The area of Voorspoed plantation was increased by the addition of 450 hectares of gum trees . 50 Hectares of new ground have been established to trees on Mamathola and Voorspoed and more will be developed as funds become available . The forestry section is a commercial project , run on a commercial basis but I want to appeal today that Tribal Authorities should not forget the small woodlots established in their areas . These are for firewood and building material for the people must be maintained , controlled and cared for . A nursery is in the process of being established at Lebowakgomo . Forestry seedlings will be cultivated for distribution to districts and various fruit trees will be available for sale to institutions and also to private individuals . As far as the Nature Conservation Section of my Department is concerned , may I mention that severe measures were applied this past year against illegal hunting . 36 People were found guilty of this offence and fined to the extent of R2 182. 2 Firearms were confiscated to the value of R500 . Fishing licences were issued to the value of R2 000 . Fish research has been done in 5 dams and the Chuniespoort dam has been stocked with 20 000 blue bream , 500 carp , and 5 000 blackbass ; plus 1 000 red bream . At the same time the 9 fish rearing dams at Tompi Seleka College were stocked with 9 000 fingerling , of the Carp variaty . Besides the forementioned dams other larger permanent dams have been stocked with fish in the past . The aim is to provide a cheaper protein food for the Lebowa citizens , secondly it provides an income from the sale of fishing licences and thirdly it provides an income from the sale of fishing licences and thirdly it provides recreation facilities for the homeland citizens . Lebowa is priviledged in that it has four species of cycad occuring in the Homeland . The cycad species are protected by the Lebowa Act 10 of 1973 which proclaims them specially protected plants . Not withstanding the severe penalties that are imposed for the removal of these plants , there were however nine persons prosecuted , and found guilty . Fines totalling R1 800 or 54 months were imposed . The proclamation of two nature reserves namely Winterveld , 1000 ha . , in the Sekhukhune district in conjunction with Ucar mine and secondly a reserve in the Bochum district , arc in progress . A third reserve is contemplated in the Bolobedu district . This plant reserve will be developed in conjunction with the Modjadji Tribal Authority . The abovementioned reserves can act as a source of income through tourism . The Homeland finds itself in the fortunate position that it is the first to offer a course in the control

395

of problem animals , by means of the " Coyote getter . " This apparatus is being used for setting of poisonous cianide cartridges for the controlling of vermin . Four Lebowa citizens in the employ of the section Nature Conservation have already completed the course . Training will assist in combatting rabies in the Homeland which is transmitted by the red jackal proclaimed vermin under the Nature Conservation Act no . 10 of 1973 . Further training with regards to fish farming has also been provided to two Game Rangers of the section nature conservation , which enables the Homeland to be independent of outside institutions . The Veterinary Section of my Department cares for the health of livestock and animals of Lebowa . The disease which causes the most deaths is quater- evil and during the past year 150 000 cattle were inoculated against this disease . No deaths due to quater-evil occurred . Scab disease occured amongst the sheep flocks of Seshego district , and with regular dipping , the disease was brought under control . Rabies occurred in the neighbouring white areas around Bochum but with the promp action in the form of inoculation , the spread of this disease to the Lebowa area was prevented . The Veterinary section have also started with clinics for dogs and cattle in Nebo and Mokerong districts . Thought is being given to extend the abovementioned service to more areas . New-castle disease amongst poultry has always been a problem in Lebowa . During the past year 84 000 birds were inoculated and it seems that the disease is diminishing . As a result of inoculating 400 000 head of cattle against Anthrax, no outbreak of this disease was experienced during the past year . My Department is giving thought to the idea of declaring the whole of Lebowa a controlled area thereby making dipping of cattle compulsory to all cattle in Lebowa . The support of the House in this respect will be highly appreciated . The training of stock inspectors at Tompi Seleka College , which was formerly done in the Ciskei has already been mentioned . Two of the Veterinary section officials are going to attend a course in laboratory techniques at Onderstepoort this year . The provision of water supplies for human and livestock purposes remains high on the list of priorities in the agricultural engineering services of my Department . As far as the budget and trained manpower permits , everything possible is being done to catch up with the big back log that occurred prior to the establishment of this section in my Department . At the same time maintenance of all existing water schemes must be kept up and development of new schemes for humans , animals and irrigation must receive attention . During the past financial year 97 boreholes were drilled at a cost of R71 250 . During the same period 70 boreholes were equipped , 65 reservoirs were constructed , 6 dipping tanks were built and 35 kilometres of pipelines were laid for water supply . the upkeep and repairs of the existing water supplies is an immense task and during the year 300 pumping installations were repaired and conditioned , and of the 635 damaged earth dams , 30 have been repaired and 8 more irrigation dams have been constructed . My Department is aware that there are several large dams which still have to be built and this matter has already been referred to the Department of Works who is responsible for the construction work . Over

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and above the water supplies , attention has also been paid to dipping tanks , stocksale pens , crushpens , and farm buildings . As a result of many fry bore holes in certain areas , where the underground water supply is poor , well point system are used with the result that three schemes have already been completed , and four schemes will receive attention during this financial year . Twelve smaller water schemes have also been completed , while others are in the process of completion . I appral to the house to note that a large percentage of the funds allocated to this section is spent on repairing unnecessary damaged works to the detriment of new schemes . My department has also found that many of the existing irrigation schemes are difficult to work and irrigate . Work has already been started at Coetzeesdraai to improve the position . Because of the very big demand for the necessary buildings , this section of my department erected the following buildings during the past year: 24 sheds in several districts 64 pumphouses in several districts 86 prefabricated huts for housing 634 buildings were repaired and cleaned . I want to appeal that my Department should be given the aids to do all the erection and maintenance of its own farm buildings in the future . Training of personel received attention during the past year and I can mention it to the house , of the private firms such as Stewarts and Lloyds , Superrocla , Hatz Diesel , Makolness and other gave support in this connection , but I must again appeal to the House to support in this connection , but I must again appeal to the House to support me to obtain qualified workmen and artisans for this section of my Department . During December 1976 my Department moved from Seshegc to Lebowakgomo which was well organized and proceded with the minimum loss of working hours . The House is welcome to pay a visit to the new complex and might be astonished to see the progress already^ accomplished . The Administration section has greatly improved during the past year and with continued training of staff in work procedures has resulted in a continued increase in productivity . These methods are also being followed in the district offices . Because of the expansion of work on the whole in my Department , and also because of the proposed occupying of posts by citizens of the homeland and the promotion opportunities of Lebowa citizens , the following additional posts have been created : - 2 posts Chief Clerk - 4 posts Senior Clerk - 3 posts Clerk Gr . I - 13 posts Clerk Gr . II - 1 post Typist - 1 post Switchboard opperator 7 posts Chief Agricultural Officer Senior Agricultural Officer 5 posts Agricultural Officer 7 posts Agricultural Extension Officer - 5 posts Gr . II Nature Conservation officers · 6 posts Grade I Nature Conservation Officer - 12 posts Gr . II Senior Trades Foreman 2 posts - 2 posts Trades Foreman posts Unclassified Workmen Workmen II = § Unclassified 6 posts

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Unclassified Workmen III Unclassified Workmen IV

- 2 posts - 6 posts

The following staff were promoted during the past year :3 3

I

5 2

-

24 412

Agricultural Officer to Senior Agricultural officer Agricultural Extension Officer Gt . I to Agricultural Extension officer Agricultural extension Officer Gr II to Agricultural Extension Officer Gr . I Agricultural Development Officer Gr . II to Development Officer Gr . I Assistant Stock Inspector Gr . II to Assistant Stock Inspector Gr . I Clerk Gr . II to Clerk Gr . I Assistant Clerk to Clerk Gr . II Assistant Forester Gr . I to Forester Assistant Forester Gr . II to Assistant Forester Gr . I There were also prestige merit increments given to : 4 3 1 1

Agricultural Extension Officers Gr . I Assistant Stock Inspectors Gr . I Senior Clerk and 3 Clerks Gr . I Assistant Forester Gr . II .

During the past year altogether 48 new appointments were made in the different sections of my Department . I would like to express a word of thank to the members of the Agricultural Advisory Board for the manner in which they supported me with advice during the past year . During our Meetings , matters of great importance were discussed and we endeavour to straighten out problems of Lebowa Agriculture . During the tours undertaken by the Advisory Board first hand knowledge of problems and situations were obtained and with the guidance of the Advisory Board members , I will persist in following up and straightening out these problems . I should like to express my thanks to the various Tribal Authorities for their cordial invitations to visit them but regret that I was unable to accept all of them due to other pressing commitments . In each Tribal Area my Department willingly offers its assistance in the compiling of the Tribal estimates for the agricultural section . Furthermore to make sure that the Agricultural estimates and the execution of relevant work is carried out correctly, my Department has compiled a five year plan and all work will be carried out according to this plan . These programs are available in my office to any interested person . Mr Chairman , I should now like to put my budget vote the to the honourable members of this house .

398

VOTE

5:

AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY :

Total provision Increase Main Division A

: :

1977/78

R6 802 300 R1 083 300

Salaries , wages and allowances Amount Increase R480 600

R1 809 100

The approved establishement has been increased from 1820 and provision has been made for 54 additional posts . Provision has also been made for vacation savings bonusses , personal non- pensionable allowances , personal pensionable allowances , overtime and Gratuities . Main Division 8

Subsistence and Transport

Amount

Increase

R877 800

R72 400

Mainly due to the extension of the establishment as well as the higher rates of subsistence allowances . Also due to the obtaining of ten additional vehicles and the normal increase in working activies and kilometer tarrif and higher railway rates . Main Division C

Telephone

No increase Main Division D

Amount

Increase

R10 200

Nil

Printing, advertisements and publications

Amount

Increase

R11 100

R7 400

The decrease is due to the fact that certain regular printing matter will not be done this year . Quantities of registers , forms , books etc. for this year are on hand : No publications are required . Main Division E

Miscellaneous Expences

Amount

Increase

R63 200

R6 700

Due to the extension of the establishment , additional furniture is required for the new posts and for photostatic machines . Also due to officials entitled to protective clothing previously not supplied and the increase in prices . Main Division F.

Machinery, equipment and Tools Amount

R750 200

Increase R21 700

Increase is mainly due to higher fuel prices , the constant rise in price of spare parts and in repair costs . Main Division G

Agricultural Planning and Development

Increase Amount R2 391 400 R298 100

Due to higher prices of bulls and rams ; the increase in price of forage and other maintenance expenditure e.g. dipping fluid , vaccines and medicines , higher wages for staff . Rise in prices between 15% and 20% of fertilizers , pest control remedies , packing materials , fencing material and general higher production costs 8Feagexvedrecerathythepreacts . More use will also be made

399

Main Division H

Training Centres

Amount

Increase

R74 400

R6 300

Increase is due to the fact that more farm equipment will be purchased this year , higher salaries to staff , rise in prices of fertilizer , pest control remedies , fencing material , stationery and publications .. THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Order! note this House should adjourn until 2.15 . ( THE HOUSE ADJOURNED AT

12.43 P.M.

Order .

On that

FOR LUNCH . )

( THE HOUSE RESUMED THE PROCEEDINGS AT 2.30 P.M. ) THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Honourable members when we adjourned the Honourable Minister of Agriculture was still delivering his Budget and Policy speech . We shall therefore request him to proceed . THE MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY : Mr Chairman . Main Division I.

Agricultural Engineering Service

Thank you

Amount

Increase

R814 900

R204 900

Increase is due to more boreholes and dams provided for as water is essential . A tremendous rise in the price of fuel , steel and other maintenance material . This section of my Department will be responsible for the erection of farm buildings to lighten the shortage of these essential buildings . Thank you Mr Chairman , I can foresee that next year , Mr Speaker and Honourable House , this budget of Agriculture and Forestry will be doubled . Thank you , Mr Chairman . THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Honourable members , the Honourable Minister of Agriculture has read his Budget and Policy Speech . Now this is your chance to discuss the principles and merits of this speech . It was unfortunate this morning that when he read the speech only two or three members of the Advisory Board of Agriculture were present in this House and most of the members spent all the time coming in and going out , hardly staying in this Assembly for five minutes . According to the statistics here the House was only 35 strong ; 15 were fast asleep . Now , when we give you time to put your questions you must show us that you were not asleep and that you were not outside . Otherwise you will be irrelevant . And lastly we should respect this honourable Chamber and respect the public that is watching us . If you feel a little bit dizzy go outside to get fresh air . The Honourable M.W. Kgatla , he was quite attentive all the time . · MR M.W. KGATLA: Thank you , Mr Chairman . I wish first of all to congratulate the Minister for his marvellous speech outlining what is happening in his Department . It is with dedication that a man can do such . In fact if it were not due to inflation we would have expected more than this. He would go with his hat in hand to the Ministry concerned to allocate the

400

money and get more and double as he has promised his budget will be doubled next year . I believe by next to come and build we have never had dam for the usage

year he will be having enough money in order one or two big dams in my constituency where an apportunity of having a single big enough of water for drinking purposes and for animals .

My people have asked me to come and ask the Minister that when they go about in the Lebowa territory they find big dams , they find big irrigation schemes and yet they are never thought of where these things are made for the other constituencies : They asked me not to bother the Minister this time but just to ask for water only. On page 6 of the Minister's speech , the Minister appeals to this House that all buildings , erection of new buildings and the maintenance of all agricultural buildings should be handed over to his Department . In other words it means that if there are houses or buildings which have to be constructed for the Depart→ ment of Agriculture , or even to be maintained , they should not be constructed or maintained by Departments such as the Department of works . They must be allowed to construct for themselves and be authorised to maintain them themselves as Depart→ ment of Agriculture and Forestry . Honourable members will understand this request is a genuine request for the following reasons . We have realised that the Department of Works is doing the building and maintenance of every building in Lebowa . When we have been dealing with the vote on works , there are major works , major building projects that they must build in his Department before he can go and help the other Departments .

I wish to quote an example . I am not trying to offend anybody but the truth remains the truth . You will remember that money was allocated for the building of the Modjadji Training Colle ge during the time of the former Minister of Works Kgoši T.J. Mothapo . There were other major projects like the Dr. C.N. Phatudi project down at Tubatse that that Department should take care of at the same time . You'll also remember that the Department concerned had to build each township including Lebowakgomo . It is really abnormal to think that a man within & financial year can complete all these major projects at the same time , and at the same time maintain all those buildings in Lebowa . In other words the hands of the Minister of Works are so full and so occupied that some of the works in other Departments are really impossible for him can do . I vehemently and reluctantly hate to come and show a man with my finger and say "you have never done that and that and that . " The Department of Agriculture is asking to do its own work because it has got its own building gang . In other words it is trying to alleviate the congestion and the backlog which is in the Department of Works . Those who were down at Chloe saw so many buildings and I learn those buildings were put up in less than three or six months time by the Department of Agriculture . Those you who were overwhich to thetook Eastonly mustabout have two seen structure a goodof next travelling to Solomondale

401 :

months to erect or so . only .

I am correct it has taken six weeks

Now if the Department was still waiting on the Department of Works , that structure at Solomondale couldn't be there . That structure at Chloe couldn't be there due to the fact that the Minister of Works's hands are full . I appeal to the House to help the Department of Agriculture and Forestry , by allowing them to erect those buildings and to maintain their own buildings , Mr Chairman . Mr Chairman , Sir ! MR E.M. MALOMA : Mr Chairman , I wish to congratulate the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry on the beautiful programme which he has worked out and on the speech he has delivered . If everything depended on me I would move we adopt this Vote without further delay , because the Department of Agriculture and Forestry brings in more revenue than any other Department . In his speech the Minister has made no reference to any other Department . His statements are properly arranged and stated . To give example you all saw how the opening of the Chloe Sisal Project was expertly arranged . You could see the experience of the Minister in the morning before you went to feast yourselves , at Solomondale where poultry is farmed . If we look on page 4 , of the Policy Speech , and look at the revenue of this year , you will wish this Department were the Department of Finance . The only thing that he left behind is the increase in the number of dams in the homelands , especially where there is shortage of water . The reason is that in some areas the planning is not yet complete . If the land in Lebowa had been completely planned , we would know that he still had that and that dam to construct . I do not think there is anyone who can criticise what the Minister has said here . I thank you , Mr Chairman . MR H.M. LESHABANE : The first thing I want to mention is that we are short of people who can make fine things for us . Administration is a very difficult thing and our people are not being properly guided . I congratulate the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry for having an expert of a Secretary . The Policy Speech of the Minister is properly composed and laid out . Notwithstanding , I wish to know whether the time is not ripe that the Lebowa schools should be well supplied with water . We see children carrying tins going in search of water very far away . Is it not time that schools in Lebowa should have water borne toilets . I wish to propose that all our high schools should be provided with such toilets . At Mokomene , children do not have sufficient water There is a borehole but the machine for pumping the water is small and is not capable of pumping sufficient water for the children accommodated there . When the machine is out of action the children get really embarrassed by lack of water. I wish appeal . that the matter of water supply receive your prompt to attention

402

The Minister did promise us that there would be cooperatives . Farms would be bought where we could keep cattle , get milk and sell . When can this matter be expected to come to fruition ? THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEE : Order! From the record here on the table the Honourable member is a member of the Agricultural Advisory Board , and he should be knowing more about the cooperative society in this Board . Continue honourable member .

MR H.M. LESHABANE : Mr Chairman , I beg to differ with you . Where I am standing , I am a member of Parliament and not a member of the Advisory Board . And when I change my jacket and put on another jacket , maybe I am the member of the Advisory Board but now I am a member of Parliament . call THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Order! Before I upon the Honourable P.L. Kekana I want to show the member that he is the member of the Advisory Board because he is a member of Parliament . Correctly speaking and according to procedure they should be sitting behind the Minister because they are advising him . The hon . P.L. Kekana . MR P.L. KEKANA : I do not have much that needs to be said, Mr Chairman . I thank the Minister for his Policy Speech . He stated everything in details . We realise that the Revenue is more than the amount allocated to him . If my wish were followed I would suggest that we should deal with the Vote item by item because the speech is self explanatory . KGOŠI L.L. NTWAMPE : The way the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry has done good work , I would say his Vote should pass . There is certainly no decrease in this Vote . The Minister of Agriculture and his Department went to bury Mathole in a wonderful ceremony . He has put up beautiful offices at Praktiseer . Coming to the construction of dams , we must not find him wrong for that is the work of the Department of Works . You are just worrying this old man . He is hard working . He has a very industrious secretary . We wish all the seconded officials would work as he does . Thank you !

KGOŠI A.S. MOLEPO : I thank our Minister for the good work he has done . I also congratulate him upon the cooperation of his Secretary . We know that without Agriculture there is no one who can live . Were it not for the Department of Agriculture , all these other Department would not be existing . The main purpose of the Department of Agriculture is to pump life into our government . In his speech the Minister spoke about irrigation schemes , as well as training centres . He has asked that the lands of the tribal authorities which have not been planned should be planned , so that our lands can be profitably exploited . We also thank the Minister for telling us that there are 200 head of cattle which are being cared for by his Department . Also the presence of 487 goats owned by his Department , as well as 419 sheep . Thanks also for the report of the Minister that he will request the Lebowa Development Corporation to help the tribes . We also thank him for the initiating of a

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poultry plant at Sebayeng . They will help with meat and eggs to our Hospitals and schools . We ask that that type of work should not only be at Sebayeng , it should be spread over the whole Lebowa . We know that poultry farming is going to open up employment facilities for the Lebowa subjects . We are therefore thankful that his Department has done wonderful work . In short I also agree with those who propose that we pass this Vote and finish . Thank you ! THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Honourable members , before I call upon the hon . A.S. Mahlangu , according to my records here , all the speakers are praising the Minister . Now I want to tell you something . Lebowa is very ripe in politics . And when you praise the Minister , I can notice that there is a good work , but do you all just want to speak . Don't you think that these people have spoken? The Hon . Andries Mahlangu? MR A.S. MAHLANGU: Mr Chairman , I do many things to say, because this is our Department and we know these things . I also want to express my thanks to the Minister and his Secretary for the great work . There is one little item which surprises me here . I want to know why there is this decrease of R8 560 from this Votee? This is a hard working Department Look at Chuniespoort . I am told that in future we are going to eat a lot of fish. This Department does not only construct dams . It also keeps fish inside them . In the Ministers Speech he spoke about decreasing the number of donkeys . I also affirm it these donkeys should just disappear . One donkey eats the amount of grass that could feed five head of cattle per day . If it does not do eo it kills a person on the road . If you are in a car together with your children going to visit , it kills you all . Where it has killed you , its owner does not make his appearance because the donkey is without any owner . Let them go . Now how can dams be established while some of our dikgoši do not agree to plan their kraals . Dams , roads , boreholes these things go together with planning . Now if you do not plan , it is not right that you should complain . Go and agree with your tribe before you come here . Then we will put things to be right for you. Even those that have bought farms for themselves are complaining that they also are paying tax but nothing is being done for them . They also must plan their land . Then they will be given the necessary services . There is one other point on which I wish to advise the Department of Agriculture . It is in connection with rangers . These people are on duty night and day; but they are not adequately paid . This country cannot do well without them . They are harder working than us here . Right in the middle of the night you meet them driving donkeys and cattle . They help people along the way so that they should not be hurt , but they are meagrely paid . They work ever or Saturday and Sunday. Why do you not give them S&T'S? It is maintained that Lebowa is their place . Personally , I am not satisfied with this point .

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If you are a Lebowa subject , must you be killed? I do not require an answer here . I merely mean that the matter should be investigated . I will sit down and give them a little time after a while I will move that we treat the Vote item by item . We must pass this Vote today, for I know there is nothing you can ask because you have not planned your lands . If you want to ask a question consult that speech and it will satisfy you . We are proceeding item by item .

KGOŠI M.M. MALEKANA : Mr Chairman , I also have nothing to object . I express my thanks for the wonderful work they have done in the last year . Now in connection with the Dr. Eiselen Dam which for a long time about which there has long been complaints that it is leaking and does not bring any water where it was intended , when will it be repaired . Its water does not help people properly any longer. THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Order! We want you to be clear , honourable member . You see its not a question . It is just an advice or is it a reminder? A reminder that they must repair the Eislen Dam? Is that what you mean? KGOŠI M.M. MALEKANA: Mr Chairman , it is a reminder that this dam should be repaired . One part is ploughed only when the rain has fallen . The second point is a question . I am told there is a dam at Drooghoek , in Kgoši Maepa's area . It was measured and the tractors scraped and since it was left . I plead that it should receive attention . There is no point in starting a piece of work and leaving it uncompleted . The other point is in connection with a furrow leading into Kgoši Mampuru's place which give a great deal of trouble in the summer season , because at the farm Voskloof , it runs parallel with the Tubatse River . If you go to look at the furrow during this time you will find machine that it has no water . But down there there is a for pumping water . You will find that the furrow is blocked . When the river is in flood , it breaks the wall of this furrow . I am appealing that the Department of Agriculture should take care of this problem . Thank you , Mr Chairman . " MR S.L. DIGASHU: Thank you , Mr Chairman . The members have already mentioned the main points . I think it will not help much to repeat that I thank the Minister ... But we have to congratulate him upon the great work he has done . There is only here and there where we will draw the attention of the Minister , so that he can put to right . In his speech the Minister mentioned about his cooperation with the tribes in the Mokerong District . I also confirm that there is cooperation . There are a few points which I request the Minister to note down and follow up . At Ma Malokong there is a leaking dam. Water does not collect in side it. I request the Minister to order his Department that that dam be repaired so that the cattle at Malokong should be able to drink . Without that dam , there is no other place where the cattle can find water . I therefore request the Minister that this matter should be followed up and the dam be repaired .

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One other matter I would like to mention is in connection with secondary schools . The Minister should see to it that these schools are fenced off alternatively he should help the tribes with fencing wire if he is not in a position to do that . Children get hurt . I am not referring only to Mokerong. I am thinking of Lebowa schools in general . I request that Department of the Minister help us in that way . Much has already been discussed I also affirm that we should proceed item by item , Mr Chairman .

KGOŠI B.K. MATLALA: Thank you , honourable Chairman . As I see it there is no member criticising the Minister's speech . I also have nothing to complain about it . I praise him together with his Secretary . But now you will notice that the suit you like very much and put on every day will wear off . Therefore rather than we over use this fine speech I move that we proceed item by item and complete before 5 o'clock . I conclude that way honourable Chairman . MR M.W. KGATLA : On a point of order , Mr Chairman . According to our rules of procedure , under no circumstances should a Minister be protected . If the thing is clear like this , you leave all those people who want to speak and you are the judge . When you realise nobody wants to speak any longer , then you can ask for the closure of the Vote . I have realised an anomally All the members of the Board have spoken , and they want to deprive other members before they can speak and that is not correct . THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES :

I am still following my

list here . MR L.G. MATHOLE : Mr Chairman , may I crave for your indulgence to take not of the fact that immediately a member is satisfied he is not granted within hours to move a proposal , i.e. seconding the honourable Mohale William Kgatla from Bolobedu . According to our Rules of Procedure , in this there is an imputation and no speaker must set an imputation subject to our Rules of Procedure on what other speakers are going to say . And this must be disqualified from any other member irrespective of whether he belongs to the Advisory Board of the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry . Democratically , speaking we didn't appoint them . They were appointed by him , and we question those we have appointed . Under all circumstances they must sit back to defend their resolutions and not to suggest that the Minister has been good , and his speech has been good . That is politically unfair . So , Mr Chairman , check on your time , and no instruction that we finish at 5 o'clock . Perhaps we take our own time . Some of us are still going to read the speech further because some of the chapters have been jumped during the reading and interpretation . For your attention , Mr Chairman , with respect there was sometime when the Minister read and they interpreted when the Minister did not read , because they read both of them . So one was not following the sequence . On that score , Mr Chairman , I feel we cannot be limited to five o'clock .

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THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES ; Honourable members , be calm . The Chair is calm . The chair did not react to what was suggested . I am following the list here .

MR L.G. MATHOLE : Point of order , Mr Chairman . The Chair cannot allow an extension to 60 minutes where the other members will be agrieved of certain suggestions of certain honourable members just because the Chair is holding a list . Who are not aware of your list . And we don't care to be aware of your list , Mr Chairman . THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Honourable Members , I don't think the Honourable member catches what I am saying . The honourable K.P. Phasha . Mr Chairman , procedurerally the motion has been moved . Whether that motion has been seconded I stand to second it , that we go clause by clause . It is procedural , Mr Chairman , that must be allowed procedure Mr Chairman . MR L.G. MATHOle :

Your decision , Mr Chairman .

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Honourable members , there is a motion here that we should go item by item. Is there any member who is opposing this motion? MR L.G. MATHOLE : Subject to the Rules of Procedure in every Democratic Country it is not necessary to oppose the motion . It is necessary for us to subject ourselves to the Rules of Procedure existing . Otherwise if you want to rule out the Rules of Procedure existing to us , it must be a substantive motion which will come after six days . So , Mr Chairman , in the circumstances , the motion lapses , and it must be treated as nul and void abinitio .

KGOŠI K.P. PHASHA : Mr Chairman , I am also very thankful for the speech as given by the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry . Now I want to give him another little work . I request that he should look into the fact that he should accomplish his job not how to do his job . In so say I am taking care in some of the farms which are planned he did not complete cattle camps as well as the sections of the whole farm . Now I wish to request that he should please have chance to let him go and complete his job . Secondly, on the farms bought by the Central Government for Lebowa , and allocated to the various dikgoši , there are some boreholes which are not furnished with pumping machinery as a requested . And some of those boreholes it is learned from reliable sources possess a lot of water for the supply of the people on the farms . Some of these farms you could find as it has been said , two rivers running across each other and a borehole in the midst or in the middle of those rivers is sunk and no pumping machinery is supplied . And above those boreholes it is said machines or pumping engines were placed there and they were stolen . Could he please find out those who stole those machines or else he should plant new engines .

Now in his Policy Speech

found that he spoke of poultry farming .

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As I know him he is a lenient Minister I do think he won't put a spoke in the wheel of the Lebowans who are willing to undertake this project .

Now further there is a question of rangers . I have one of the honourable members of this House , namely Andries Mahlangu this way saying they aught to be given enough salaries or wages because they do much job . I was perplexed by this speech because in Sekhukhune land I don't think there is any kgoši who could say rangers are doing their job properly . I will mention of only two farms newly bought by the Central Government and allocated to dikgoši . For examples : At Boskloof and Goedeverwagting where I am kgoši . Boskloof is under Kgoši Mampuru and Goedeverwagting is under me and there is not even a single ranger . By so saying I do not mean rangers shouldn't be given increment . At Nebo perhaps or some where they are . They are doing the work properly . But the Minister , through , Mr Chairman , could endeavour getting those rangers in at Sekhukhuneland do the portfolio . So that we may be able to come and enjoy the increment as ours in due course . MR A.S. MAHLANGU : Point of order , Mr Chairman . I want to show the honourable member for Sekhukhuneland that he is out of order because if the rangers in Sekhukhuneland do not do their duties properly he should not conclude that the rangers behave that way all over . The honourable member for Sekhukhuneland is himself a kgoši and he should look after the rangers because he is a member of this house and he is a member of this government . Honourable Chairman I have not seen a kgoši who penalises his tribe .

MR L.G. MATHOLE : Point of order , Mr Chairman . Mr Chairman , may I remind you that a point of order is not a pretext for debate . Your ruling please , Mr Chairman . KGOŠI K.P. PHASHA : Thank you , Mr Chairman . I do not think I was out of order . The only thing is that the honourable member did not just understand me . My main point is that rangers should do their work properly so that their increments should be enjoyed . If your chap is doing his job properly , mine does not do his job properly and mine is just to react .

As I am , I am trying to encourage my Minister to urge those people to do the work properly . If I have my rangers and they do not do the work properly , I have got the reason to react . Thank you , Mr Chairman . Mr Chairman , I would like to remind or rather urge my Minister for Agriculture and Forestry to take care of main roads making boundaries between farms . By so saying I mean he should bear in mind that motorgates are to be constructed for the precaution of cattle getting from one farm into another . It is because the cattle are troublesome and they bring about quarrels between the dikgoši . And there is provision that no cattle should go into a farm

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without any permit . That is why we are required to make camps for grazing . Now if cattle from one farm go into the next farm just there , there is trouble . Now to remedy the trouble I wish you could fix motorgates . Thank you ! MR M.F. MAMETJA : Mr Chairman , thanks for this opportunity of congratulating the Minister of Agriculture . I notice that what I had intended to say has already been said . The Minister's speech is like his works outside . It is very clear that the Minister of Agriculture has a very honest Secretary . Now I have a few points to remark on . There is the matter of rangers . We also have rangers who do not satisfy us . The rangers at my place are great drunkards . I am not just scandalising . They are my brothers ; but they are just scraps . Even when you meet with them you see at once that you are meeting with wild animals . What I am saying is a living fact . A ranger is able to spend days not knowing what his work is . They are always seen drunk . The Honourable Mr Mahlangu is a lucky man . He states that the rangers at his place are busy day and night . You can meet them driving away cattle to save the lives of travellers . At my home cattle are causing a great deal of havoc on the roads , not withstanding that there are rangers . You will never meet a single ranger removing cattle from the main roads . There is no such a matter . You can rather meet with the road inspectors . They are the people you find driving cattle away from the main roads . The Minister should also pay attention to the matter of water shortage .

KGOSI E.S. PHAAHLA : Point of order ! Do you allow repetition , Mr Chairman . ? Please request the Honourable member to stop repeating , to rechew what has already been chewed . MR M.F. MAMETJA : You are the one chewing and sitting behind me . Thank you , Mr Chairman . I was speaking about shortage of water . Now , Mr Chairman , through you I want to draw the attention of the Minister that at the schools we have the problem of water . There where we stay we are terribly short of water . I am aware that Lebowa land is wide . I am only drawing the attention of the Minister to this fact . He should know it. Thank you . MR M.J. PHASHA : Mr Chairman , as the whip of this House has gone out , I want to point to the members that there are no more questions which the members are putting to the Minister just now because all that they are speaking about are remarks and comments , such as that the Minister did not do this , did not do that . Please do such and such a thing for us . Moreover all are saying the same thing . I therefore stand to second the motion which was moved by Kgoši Matlala that we proceed clause by clause . MR M.W. KGATLA : On a point of order , Mr Chairman . It will take some people sometime to understand the Procedure of Parliament . It does not necessarily mean when you stand up you must ask questions . You can stand up and deliver your

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message to the Minister advising him to do this and this . For that matter I am here as a Whip .

MR M.J. PHASHA : Mr Chairman , I realise that some of the members here would like to increase the R10 that we earn per day instead of doing the job of Parliament . Thank you! THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Order , Honourable members , I have my speakers here . When the Chair is satisfied that these people are no more prepared to speak , I will request this house . If they are irrelevant I will tell them to sit down . If they are repeating I will tell them they are repeating . The honourable Kgoši Nchabeleng . KGOŠI J.K. NCHABELENG : Thank you , Mr Chairman . I am not able to flow. I am able to end quickly . I want to thank the Minister of Agriculture like others , as well as his Secretary . I would like to raise a question in connection with the cattle in Stellenbosch . These cattle are kept so that all Lebowa people should be able to buy them . I want to know if these cattle are sold to black people only or can the white people buy them as well . I say so because these cattle generally get sold out before the black people have bought them . If that is the case I suggest that they be increased so that the black people should also be able to buy them . Further I want to thank the Department of Agriculture for building us a school in Sekhukhuneland . The sad thing about that school is the poor toilet facilities . I wish to know if that school is a government school . If it is a government school , this department should take care of it .

KGOŠI M.B. RIBA : I thank you , Mr Chairman . I want to express my thankfulness . We are compelled , following our proverb to publish the bravery of our hon . Minister together with his helper, the Secretary . Now my question to the Minister is this : Has the Minister changed his mind about constructing the two dams which he promised the Bakone tribe . Now that if you have changed , you will have painted your beautiful Department with a black colour . I am referring to those dams which you told us that you would come and ask us to fence off the spot . We have fenced it off and we are no longer ploughing that place . We are waiting on you . Are you coming? I hope when I go away from here I will have heard an answer and it will be with great jubilation on that part of my tribe if they hear that the Minister is now prepared to implement his promise . Beside that , honourable Sir , in connection with the farms which the government buys for the blacks , why is it that if there are oranges on the farm, they are allowed to die? How come that these orange trees know the black man? ^ Does your Department know what is being applied on the trees when the farm is being bought? On all the farms I know , which have been bought by the government , the orange trees are dead . In like manner , the furrows which used to lead water are dry, the machines which used to be there , have been removed .

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Do these things result from negligence on the part of your Department Honourable Sir or is there some dangerous something applied . Thank you ! KGOŠI T.J. MOTHAPO : Mr Chairman , I want to start by thanking you for having given me this opportunity . There is an English idiomatic expression which says " behind every acceptable gentleman , there is a woman . My own opinion is that behind every successful Minister , there is a good Secretary . It is very unfortunate to find a secretary who does not cooperate with his Minister . By so doing he leads to the future of the said Minister . In this case , the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture has a good secretary who is prepared to cooperate with him . I did not hear it from other people , I have seen it ; not at ga-Mothapo only , but also elsewhere . That is why I said last year : "any one who can touch Mr Fick , will know us . " We saw wonderful things at Matlala last week , which were accomplished by these two people because of cooperation . In his speech the Minister is inviting us to go to see what has been done by his cooperatives at Matlala . I do not want to flow like a river , the important point is that this Department is praiseworthy . What makes me sad about the estimates is that they did not allocate enough money to this Department . Agriculture feeds us . How can we be expected to make progress if the Department of Agriculture has nothing . And you , Mr Minister have they stinted you with money . I mean the Department of Finance . Thank you! MR M.G. MATHEBE : Thank you . First I must thank the Minister for introducing the stock- inspector's course at the Agricultural school · Tombi Seleka . He has eleminated the long journeys to Fort Cox undertaken by our children to go to attend that course . I have a few questions to put to the Minister . There were cattle of Brahmin stock at Moutse . They were removed in 1974 . I want to know why they were removed . Also where have they been taken to . People were already used to buying them . But they are gone . Among the extension officers there are those who do their course in Arabie after Junior Certificate . Beside there is another course which they take at Fort Hare after Matriculation . Now it appears that when these people are employed in your Department they are placed on the same salary scale . I would like to get an explanation just there , to know what is wrong . I notice that at my place there is only one scheme for impounding stray cattle . That place is far away from our people . I wish to request the Minister that other pounds should be established as near as 15 kilometres . near . -

1

It is long since we have one extension officer at Moutse for that matter he is a white . This matter does not satisfy us because there is partiality .

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MR I.M. MODJADJI : Minister for his good work . way . Now I farms kinds range

Mr Chairman , I also thank the I wish he could proceed just that

have one point which is an advice . When we look at the of our white neighbours we realise that they farm in many of produce . How would it be if the Minister could so arthat in every constituency there is a poultry farm .

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Order , honourable member It does appear you were not in when the honourable kgoši A.S. Molepo made that suggestion . MR I.M. MODJADJI : Alright I will leave that , Mr Chairman . Please Kgoši Molepo , just emphasise that point very much so that there can be a big fowl run in each district . In addition we ask for the rearing of pigs by the ordinary people . It is necessary that we should do these things ourselves and stop supporting whites . Just now we get every agricultural produce from the Whites . What is more these agricultural produce in the farms of the Whites are being worked by our black people . Must we support the White all our lives? Thank you , Mr Chairman . MR I.K. MALEBANA : Mr Chairman , thank you , that you had the patience to wait for me till my return . Mr Chairman , I want the Minister to explain to me this : He says last year he made 97 boreholes and also 70. I want to know how many of them were found to be without water . I say so because he has not explained how many were found to have no water . Here he only shows the expenditure on boreholes . Thank you! THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Honourable Members , you are reminded of a function at 7pm tonight in this House . The function is specially for you . On that note this House should adjourn until tomorrow at 10 a.m.

( THE HOUSE

ADJOURNED

AT

5 P.M. )

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1977 THURSDAY MAY THE 5TH

COMMENCEMENT The sitting commences at 10h15

The Speaker reads a Prayer . ADOPTION OF MINUTES

MR . M.W. KGATLA : I move that we adopt the minutes as a correct record .

MR . H.M. LESHABANE : Mr. Speaker I second him .

ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE SPEAKER :

THE SPEAKER : We are still on item 8. The Chief Whip has something to say . Let us hear what he has to say .

MR . L.G. MATHOLE : Mr. Speaker Sir , may I crave for your indulgence . I have got a direct question to you Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker Sir , I would question you to illucidate for the hon . House , what the relationship is , - political relationship between the political heads and the Administrative heads in the Homelands and in the South African Government . , Mr. Speaker Sir .

THE SPEAKER : Hon . members , here is a question directed to the Chair to explain relationship between a political head and the Administrative head . I did not want to confuse this House by giving an impromptu answer . I will wish to set it aside so that we can come to give a well considered answer . It affects the Chief Minister and this Cabinet as well as the commissioner- General . Time allowing we will give an answer during the day . Thank you .

MR . L.G. MATHOLE : Mr. Speaker , I would very much wish Mr. Speaker , that I have the correct time .

THE SPEAKER : In the course of the morning I will notify you of the exact time .

TABLINGS

MR . L.C. MOTHIBA : Mr. Speaker , I want to table a report of the sessional committee on public accounts for 1977 .

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Mr. Speaker , your committee having investigated the report of the Lebowa Governments and on the accounts of the Lower Authorities to the area for the financial year 1975-76 . I wish to report authorised expenditure of R1 853 294,92 , to be voted by the hon . House during this session . Mr. Speaker the record of the report will be tabled at a later stage to these hon . m embers ; and at that time Mr. Speaker it will be open for discussion by the hon . members of the House , Mr. Speaker Sir .

NOTICES OF BILLS

THE CHIEF MINISTER : Mr. Speaker Sir , and hon . members ; Arising out of the Report of the Sessional Committee on Public Accounts I give notice of my intention to introduce a Bill on unauthorised expenditure of 1975/76 tomorrow ; Mr. Speaker Sir .

THE SPEAKER : Now the House will go into committee stage .

COMMIITEE STAGE

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEE : Hon . members , the House is now in committee . When we adjourned yesterday afternoon, we were still putting our comments on the vote on Agriculture . When we adjourned the hon . I.K. Malebana was still holding the floor .

(DISCUSSION OF THE VOTE OF AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY CONTINUES )

MR . I.K. MALEBANA : Mr. Chairman , there is an amount here of Sisal , about R413 000 which means it is an income . But it does not reflect expenditure . Could the Minister please explain it to the House . Secondly , I see there is sale of oranges . There also I see revenue , but the expenditure is not shown .

MR . M.W. KGATLA : Point of order Mr. Chairman . All Expenses have been incurred in the 1976/77 financial year . He must go and read the whole vote . And those are the expenses . And we want direct questions .

MR . I.K. MALEBANA : Mr. Chairman , the proper way would have been to show them so that comparison can be done with ease .

THE CHAIRMAN : Order hon . member , I don't think you are correct hon . member . The hon . Minister would be doing a double job because it only implies that you don't read these books .

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MR . I.K. MALEBANA : Mr. Chairman . I want to ask again where the oranges are being sold .

MR . S.M. LANGA : Mr. Chairman , the reason given by the Minister in his Policy Speech are inadequate . We complain because immediately after the speech , members of this Advisory Board began to protect him .

THE CHAIRMAN : Order hon . member , you will realise that these people just put up their hands to speak irrespective of whether they are members of the advisory board or not . If there is anything pertaining to the government you cant restrict the Cabinet Minister to speak , and say they are supporting the government . So put up your questions hon . member . MR . S.M. LANGA : Mr. Chairman you are not doing well by so doing because you are stopping any speech , you do not understand the trend of any speech . I am here to express my own feelings , not to speak out some ones opinion . I do not think the Chair should stop me from giving my own opinions .

MR . L.C. MOTHIBA : Point of order Mr. Chairman , I think this is the time to question the speech of the Minister of Agriculture . According to me it is not the time to find faults with the Chairman or to try to direct the Chairman what to do or what not to do . And Mr. Chairman , if there is anything that the hon . members want to ask from the speech please let them do so . And for the progress of the House , we need their questions please .

MR . S.M. LANGA : Mr. Chairman time does get wasted because of some people . Please give us the law by which the donkeys should be removed . If you can give us that law , this matter will be alright . These donkeys are not reared by the rich people only . There are people who are suffering , who use them for ploughing . When you decrease the donkeys without compensating their owner at the auction what are your feelings? Do you want to live alone . That is not life . Please review this matter : that that man who had a pair of donkeys which give him a living when you deprive him of them , can we believe that the Advisory Board has done proper thinking ? The donkeys are helpful to the poor women the widows and the poor people . The government itself is not to supply the nation with the means for ploughing . It falls short . Where there are donkeys they help the people twho would have nothing to help them . Or do you think that all these people stay in this location ; where they depend solely on money from the pocket ? These people depend on ploughing . They are helped by these donkeys . Don't just take pleasure to see flocks of donkeys being removed where the owners do not have a cent in their pockets . You take some other persons property and go to sell it for your own advantage . Do you think by so doing you are building up a government?

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It is necessary that we should praise you unduly . It now comes will survive are those who stay Do you ever consider that those they suffer so much?

tell you ; we should not just to mean that the people who in towns who do not plough . people pay tax ? Now why should

We want to plead with you to show mercy for them . Don't just take away their donkeys without paying anything . Let the law come to light that we may see it . Now I want to touch on the farms that have been bought by the Government . Could the Ministers please speak to their Chief Bantu Affairs Commissioner that these farms be allocated to the tribes next to them because just now we have shortage of space o for settlement . For whom is the Minister buying these farms? You would better leave because if I do not have a place of settlement , it means you are doing nothing for me . If these farms are bought and given to different people , then it means the government is of no value to us .

THE CHAIRMAN : Order , the hon . member's time has elapsed .

MR . A.S. MAHLANGU : Point of order . Mr. Chairman . I wanted to point out that the question of farms does not affect the Department of Agriculture . Farms are bought by the Central Government which gives them over to the Lebowa Government . They are in the control of the Department of Interior . They are therefore not the concern of the Department of Agriculture and Forestry . It is only when they have been bought and allocated that this Department begins to control them . Just now , no . They are not the concern of this Department . THE CHAIRMAN : The hon . S.M. Langa , your time has elapsed . You will get another 10 minutes later . KGOŝI.M . LANGA : Mr. Chairman , thank you for this opportunity . I followed the speech of the Minister of Agriculture . At any area , there is not a single dam . They tell us that the cattle will drink water from Mogalakwena . The Mogalakwena river is very far . This explanation is very unsatisfactory . At the place of Headman Manale in the Mozambique Farm there is absolutely no water . Many people have to travel 40 kilometres to the Mogalakwena river for water . Just there the Department of Agriculture bas bored water and they require us to pay for the piping of the water to the kraal . The project will cost R3 553. When we require to know the reason , they explain that they have sunk many holes whithout finding water . Their answer is , You amust pay . I have asked the tribe that each family should pay R2 and we were able to count R2 834 . There is still a borehole at Malakong where I am still faced with paying for the pipes . When I came here I was in arears with The Lebowa Special Tax and I had to pay R20 .

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Hence I made an appeal to my tribe to pay Lebowa special tax . They have paid and my offices are opened even on Saturday to enable the people to pay Lebowa Tax . Now does it mean that fools are the wealth of the wise ? Now I wish to request the Minister of Agriculture please to take care of us . We pay Lebowa tax . My wife comes from Soweto , Now she wakes up at dawn to go to fetch water far away . At my home , my Nickname is " Lebowa " . That's my nickname , because I fight for Lebowa . I press the people to work for Lebowa . There are two flags at my office , one for the office , one for the Republic an another for Lebowa . My councillors tell the people that they owe the flag and they must pay on the spot. You should realise that the followers of Molomo want us. Just now I received a letter from Manala . He invites us to a meeting that we may ecede from Lebowa . The meeting will be held on the 14th . Now I am going

THE CHAIRMAN : Order ! Order ! hon . member , you still have three minutes more . I just want the hon . members on my left- They are interfering . That's why the interpreter cannot hear . Continue hon . member .

KGOŝI D.M. LANGA : Mr. Chairman there is a leaking pipe at any place . Now Sir are we bound to repair this pipes? Are people allowed to hire these L.G. trucks? Thank you .

KGOŝI K.F. SEOPELA : Mr. Chairman , I stand here with disappointment , to let you know that at my place , we do dnot have any dams . Yesterday I heard that the areas which have not been planned will not get any thing . Now I wanted to know now that we have rangers who arrest people when they cut trees , have the trees been planned . The people who pay Lebowa Special Tax , have they also been planned . When it comes to providing the people with dams , it is maintained that the area is not planned . Our donkeys have been removed . Are they planned . When our cattle have strayed into people's fields they are impounded are they also planned? Why are the cattle brought to us because the crops have been planted by us. Now the farm Schoonoord which has six dikgoŝi , how can that be planned? This point keeps us anxious when we pay Lebowa Tax . People quarrel with us that they pay Lebowa Tax but they receive no services in return . If you want your cow to give off more milk you have to buy fodder for it . According to our proverb , water is an essential commodity for soldiers , so keep your soldiers where they will always find water . Thank you Mr. Chairman .

MR . L.M. MADISHA : Mr. Chairman , thanks for the opportunity of expressing my opinion on the speech of the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry . I hear him praising Mokerong as the district that is well planned . That is very true . But I want to inform the Minister that Mokerong is in greater starvation than all the planned areas . Now what is the reason why the people are short of plough lands seeing that their area was well planned and the earliest ?

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Mokerong is a large well planned area but it does not have nice things . There are no dams ; the cattle are dying out . There used to be Gompies dam which used to help the people of Mokerong to live a better life . Your Department has taken the source of these dam , and when we pour water into it the water seeps away . They have taken also the machine which used to pump water into the dam . I want to know what has taken away that machine ? Just there , there is a field of sisal which we want the Department to develop . Thank you .

THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . members , we are being disturbed . There is so much movement in this House of Assembly ; as if we are in a bioscope film . There are those hon . members who do not want to listen to other members speaking . To us here it is a great honour this morning . Most of the speakers that are speaking , rarely , and they are giving us a great pleasure when they contribute this morning . Kgoŝi Ledwaba .

KGOĜI P.M. LEDWABA : Thank you Mr. Chairman . I wanted the Minister of Agriculture to know that I am thankful that those white Africaners who came to take away donkeys from our place had been sent by him . These people committed a great mistake by getting into the camp and driving people's donkeys without a word or agreement . That matter is still a case . They are looking to us . They maintain that we had sent those people to fetch their donkeys because the donkeys were not wanted . So those people had been sent . I still have the names of the people who want compensation for their animals . Just now we have a lot of donkeys which are wild in the camps . They are not being taken . It is only those that had been kept by people , which were taken . You impoverish our tribes so that they should not plough . Every body knows when they began to develop they began by using a donkey . The white did the same ; they were using them for ploughing and they were serving their families . Now they are developed and they are depriving our people of the donkeys . Up till now we still want the money for them . We had not stolen those donkeys . The owners had bought them . What they did is not a good thing . I request that you come to my place and explain to the people that donkeys are not wanted . Thank you Mr. Chairman , I want to impress upon the Minister to explain to the people . My people must feel satisfied that it is Kgoŝi Malatji who sent people to come to take away their donkeys , so that I should get out of danger . In addition we want dams at our place . We want dipping tanks . Just now we have to buy chimicals for the existing tanks and the chemicals are costly . Thank you ,

MR . M.J. MAMETJA : Thank you Mr. Chairman for the opportunity . I congratulate the Secretary for the Department of Agriculture as well as the Minister . At Naphuno we have a problem in connection with the selling of fruits . The people are short of market .

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We ask the Department of Agriculture to establish a market for these people so that their fruits may not just rot . Many people lack agricultural equipment but they have irrigable fields . These people used to sell their produce at the Shiluvane Hospital . Now they have been stopped , and the patients are complaining . Now the people plant their produce for home consumption only for lack of market . We investigated the number of applicants for market . There are only tow- one North Sotho and one Shangaan . We do not know where these people have lands . At the Hospital there is great need for vegetables . Could the Minister give this matter a keen eye . Thank you .

MR . M.J. MOHLALA : I do not have much to say Mr. Chairman . We request for dams so that we can establish irrigation schemes , for we have very fertile soil . We used to plough on the river banks and we have been stopped. We should therefore be provided with water where we have plough lands . We also want water in our villages . We have a lot of water from which water could be piped . This would be better than sinking dry boreholes . There are forests at my place and there are saw mills . The mads to the saw mills run along very fearful cliffs and gorges . There are untold risks for the workers . Let the Minister take serious note of this matter . Thank you Mr % Chairman .

MR . S.P. KWAKWA : My question is whether the students at the Tompi Seleka School of Agriculture have passed well.` The second question . What progressive step has the Minister taken to indigenise the posts in his Department . One other point let us have a vice prinicpal at the Tompi Seleka School of Agriculture to understudy the white principal . In that school there is a section dealing with animals there are cattle of Afrikander stock . Finally I wish also to find out whether they are thinking of sending people to the university so that we can have doctors who will take over one day from the whites who are serving us . Thank you Mr. Chairman . KGOŝI M.M. MATHABATHE : I wish to congratulate the Minister of Agriculture . Now this is what I want to ask : I want to know when the Department of Agriculture will make efforts to buy cattle for us properly . For there is oppression at the auctions . There is great discrimination jin the pricing of a beast from a white as compared with the ones from a black man .

THE CHAIRMAN : Order ! Order ! the hon . Mampuru you have just registered that you want to speak and you are marching out . There must be something very interesting outside . Continue hon . member.

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KGOĜI M.M. MATHABATHE : Our cattle are sold for very poor prices . Even the Minister of Agriculture can not agree to see this cattle priced so poorly , and when it affects those of the whites the prices racket . I once went to the auction at Veeplaats and I noticed this matter . Let the Department negotiate with the private sector which will buy our cattle fairly . Thank you Mr. Chairman .

MR . N.R. MAMPURU : I have a few questions to put . I notice in the speech of the Minister there is the point about the healing of fowls suffering from New Castle disease . They are 84 000 in all . I am one of those who take fowls for injection . Every year there is no improvement in this disease . Couldn't they teach their doctors better medicines? Last month the secretary for the Department of Agriculture gave me better medicines . Let them give the doctors medicines of that quality . On the farm Vergelegen , they sunk a borehole but they are not installing pumping machines . Let them help by installing pumping machines . I thank the Minister for taking us to Chloe lately to show us the various works to which Sisal can be put . I was able to see the mats and strings made out of sisal . I wish they could come to plant sisal at my place in Sekwati's areas so that we can also be helped . KGOĜI TSEKE MABOOE: We have listened to the policy speech of the Minister of Agriculture . I do not have much to say because much has been said . I want to know from the Minister of Agriculture how many years the planning takes . When they are planning the land are the people to suffer from starvation and thirst ? At my place it is already four years since planning started and the people have no drinking water and they do not plough . They just exist . I also do not know how this planning is going to help the people because it kills the Lebowa people . The Minister stresses that those whose land have not been planned should die . Is he going to finish these people , because there is no food and no water . Further I want to know from the Minister whether the money used for planning is given to the tribal authorities or they keep it themselves . If they do not give it to the tribal authorities what is the reason . Thank you Mr. Chairman .

KGOŝI E.M. MOGASHOA : Mr. Chairman I have only one question . The others have already been put to the Minister . First I congratulate the Minister upon his achievements .. What the Minister is doing is very modern . As we read the Minister says " My department has reduced a number of donkeys " I would like to ask under which protection the department reduced the number of donkeys ? Further he requests the tribal authorities to help him in this matter . In terms of which section are the tribes going to help him ?

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Mr. Chairman these donkeys are people's property . It makes us said to see the people deprived of them without any protection - just like a thug robbing you . I notice in some places they are compensated for R1,00 and they are sold for R10,00 or more . I appeal to you that the department should promulgate a law which will protect the people's property . We know the donkeys have bigger stomachs then the cattle while their usefulness is less than that of cattle . But all the same could there not be a law which controls these animals? Thank you .

MR . S.H. NKADIMENG : Mr. Chairman in the first place I am sad to hear the Minister stating that he will not construct dams for the lands which have not been planned . What is surprising is that some areas in Sekhukhuneland have not been planned but they have been provided with very fine dams . Now what is his reason for constructing dams for those areas which have not been planned . The Minister spoke about the Tompi Seleka Agricultural College . Now students who have completed their course and are now employed by your department , how amany are they? How many has the Minister given bursaries this year? I am asking because I see there are vacant posts in his department . Now I want to know where these students go after completing their courses . Do they get employed or do they go out? There has been a request hthat boreholes be sunk in schools . I want to add to that request that the same should be made in clinics . I wish to request that schools which have not been fenced off in Sekhukhuneland this year should be fenced off . When is the office for the department of Agriculture going to be built in Sekhukhuneland . Mr. Minister why does your department allow whites to compete with Blacks in buying cattle in Stellenbosch for that Breeding Station is meant entirely for the blacks? We have 12 districts in Lebowa . Now why are the extension` officers not 12? Now Mr. Minister , don't you think the poultry kept at Solomondale will harm the poultries run by the blacks who wish to undertake poultry since there is a poultry farm for a blackman at Solomondale . Mr. Chairman do the government employee work up to Friday? But there are others who work continuously , e.g. rangers , I want to know if these people are being paid for over time work. And when these people receive injuries are they covered by the Compensation Act? The officers of Fauna and Flora have they been properly trained . Are they also paid for overtime work ?

The subjects of Lebowa who have been trained in Agriculture do you allo them to specialise only in forestry? Do you

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give them the work which they have been trained ? Now what stops a black man from being a principal of the Tompi Seleka Agricultural College , seeing that the Education standard of a black is equal to that of a white?

THE CHAIRMAN : Order , with your permission , that question of Africanisation was asked by the hon . S.P. Kwakwa . So , I wish hon . members , when you have your questions , as other members mention them , scratch those that have already been asked . Continue , hon . member .

MR . M.S.H. NKADIMENG : Thank you Mr. Chairman , I wish to know if in your department you pay a man with a double diploma , the same as the one with one diploma . Thank you Mr. Chairman .

MR . M.W. KGATLA : An appeal has been made by the hon . the Minister of Agriculture to this House to the effect that he was inviting the members of the Legislative Assembly to go and see the new Agricultural Complex in Lebowakgomo. It is an earnest appeal to those who are interested in seeing what progress is . When I was a teacher , I could not teach children when they were dirty in any class , as much as I could not teach in dirty and not well cared for environment . I am not boasting . If you can go to my shop it is the cleanest in the Lowveld particularly the surroundings . You know the yard as such . This the department of Agriculture , started here where they were congested that they could not do a better work . I was the most astunished man to see what is happening at Lebowakgomo , at the Agricultural complex together with Works because they are just adjacent . No mains , no petrol , Other departments are there but it leaves much to be desired , to go and see their complexes . And this is one achievement that the department of Agriculture has made in Lebowakgomo . You can't even imagine that you are in the Bundus . It looks like in one of the best towns . In each and every section you find that there is a white man who is in charge and immediately after him is a black man learning from the white man . The black man is learning by doing and he is learning by experiencing from his immediate superior . Not to find that my senior is in this office and I am three offices away from him but they say I am assisting him . He is teaching me . How can you teach me from three blocks away . Visit Lebowakgomo . You won't only see cleanliness . You'll also see what I am trying to tell you now. Each month there is a meeting of all the sectional heads together with their black assistants ; and this is not happening in any other department . I now invite you to urn to pages 6 and 7 of the policy speech of the Minister .

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I am reading from the Middle "because of the expansion of work of the whole in my department and also because of the proposed occupying of posts by citizens of the homeland and the promotion opportunities of the Lebowa citizens " I have tried to add all those new posts for you . I will tell you the number right now . The department has appointed new officials in the department last year - top opportunities to my people . If you turn to page 7 you will find there are promotions . I have added that 26 people were promoted last year in this department and 12 people were given increments on merit in this department . Therefore Mr. Chairman , this is really a sign of dedication in this department , that my people in this department are being taken care of , being promoted , being merited , being employed etc. etc.

No other department so far has given us this information that the department of Agriculture is giving us . Before I sit down I want to sound a friendly warning that unless other departments take the example from Agriculture , people will flock over to Agriculture and you remain without man power .

THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . members we thank the hon . Kgatla for what he has just said . On your behalf the Chair requests the Minister of Agriculture to invite us to go and see the Agricultural complex at Lebowakgomo . When you get to that complex you will question yourselves whether your suit is properly ironed . The hon . Kgoŝigadi V.T. Dinkwanyane .

KGOŜIGADI V.T. DINKWANYANE : Thank you Mr. Chairman . Hon . House my thanks have already been expressed by hon . members because members have already expressed thanks to the Minister of Agriculture . Always when the battle is on , we hear ululations from the women , to encourage the warriors I will give pieces of advice . I have complaints from the Eastern part of the Lebowa nation . They always speak of wealth coming from the soil . Every year we have unploughed lands . People complain of starvation because lands have not been ploughed some crops get destroyed by the home animals . People request that their arable lands should be fenced off so that animals may not stray into their land any longer . Thanks .

KGOŝI P. NKADIMENG : Thank you Mr. Chairman . The Minister is very fortunate . I am going to use a very light weapon I have got a few questions . 1.

Which soil is suitable for sisal plant . I think the question is educative , no trouble in that .

2.

What steps are taken by your department regarding sufficient cattle ranching areas in Lebowa .

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3.

I would like to know whether there is sufficient osmosis in a sandy soil and what plants are suitable for the very s Jil? This is also educative .

4.

I would like the name of the poison so mercilessly devastating prickle - pears in the whole of Lebowa , even outside our territory and why was this sort of sin committed . It is also very important . Under the same question . Which country exported this poison to the Republic of South Africa . Thank you very very much . Thank you very very much. I have applied very very simple weaponry .

THE CHAIRMAN : On that note , this House should adjourn until 2.15 .

(THE HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 12.45 AND RESUMED THE PROCEEDINGS AT 2.20)

THE SPEAKER : When the House adjourned we were in the committee stage ; therefore we will go into committee .

THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . House , the House is in committee . Unfortunately the relevant Minister is not present .

KGOĜI M.M. MATLAŁA: According to the procedure of the House , the House should proceed notwithstanding his absence .

KGOŜIGADI J. LEDWABA : I also stand to thank the Minister of Agriculture and Forestry . At Ledwaba we have lands which have been expropriated for purposes of establishing Lebowakgomo . People do not plough at that place any longer , the place has been turned into a grave yard for the Lebowakgomo . I wish to know if the Minister has ever come to see this matter . The second complaint is about water . We have one borehole . When it is out of order , people have to travel a very long distance in search of water . I wish to plead with the Minister to take care of us all equally . We were promised dipping tank for cattle . Later we were threatened with removal and the water boring project was left . We plead for help in connection with water and a dipping tank .

MR . E.M. MALOMA : Thank you Mr. Chairman . As far as I can see we have discussed tthe various sections of the Department of Agriculture every one knows that Agriculture is the foundation of everything . It looks now we are doing repetition . I move that we pass this vote Mr. Chairman .

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MR . I.M. MODJADJI : I second the motion .

MR . S.H. NKADIMENG : I disagree with those that think the vote on Agriculture should be passed . I still have questions . I wish to know now that many places did not receive any rain , if the Minister is ready to help those that are starving . MR . I.M. MODJADJI : Point of order Mr. Chairman . What is being said by Mr. Nkadimeng concerns the Department of Internal Affairs . MR. S.H. NKA DIMENG : Mr. Chairman , I wish to know how many whites are occupying posts of principal clerks in the districts .

KGOŝI E.S. PHAAHLA: Point of order Mr. Chairman the hon Nkadimeng does not have a second in his counter motion .

MR . M.W. KGATLA : Mr. Chairman , you should use youre discretion . Unless your list is exhausted , you ignore that motion . And this House cannot be bound by the motion if there are hon . members who still want to speak . So you just ignore it as if nothing has happened .

MR . S.H. NKADIMENG : Secondly I wish to know how many blocks are replacing the principal clerks in the district . Thank you Mr. Chairman .

MR . P.L. KEKANA : I wish to remind the Minister of Agriculture that the Department of Justice should not interfere with his department in such functions as allocating stands to the people and lands if the land has been planned . I want to know if the Minister of Agriculture knows that now the cost of a bag of mealiemeal is R 17,00 when you buy it in town . Butra bag of mealies when they buy it from us is R8,00 Let the Minister help our people so that their crops should fetch a better price . Further I request that we take this vote item by item .

MR . S.M. LANGA : Mr. Chairman I want to know from the Minister when he bores water 5.3 . or 1 miles away from the residence who should pipe the water into the village . Isn't the idea behind planning to bring people and animals near the water? Kgoŝi Langa stated that his tribe has collected money . Are you going to reimburse him with the money .

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THE CHAIRMAN : Order hon . member , you are aware that the hon . Kgoŝi Langa put this question and the hon . Minister has noted the question and that these people are paying Lebowa tax 100% and yet they have no water . With your permission , don't repeat that hon . member .

MR . S.M. LANGA : Mr. Chairman do not try to confuse me , Kgoŝi Langa has not asked whether his money will be refunded . I want to know whether the money is going to be paid back . Just now I did not say anything about tax . That is not what I am saying . Now I want to speak about irrigation schemes . There are farmers in those districts . Those people have not done their work properly according to the regulations of extension . Why are these people settled in the irrigation schemes . Water is just wasted . The Minister should take care of these matters . Thank you .

MR . S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr. Chairman than you . The Department of Agriculture is doing a fine work for the Lebowa people . Last year I said to the hon . the Minister for Agriculture that he has a very good secretary and that it was up to him to make use of him . I am quite convinced that the hon . the Minister for Agriculture has realised this and he is making good use of his secretary . It is very unfortunate that in most cases when we have the so- called seconded officials we find the people who are not having our interest at heart . If only we could have the people of Mr. Fick's calibre I believe the limit would be the sky for the Lebowa people .

THE CHAIRMAN : Order ! Order ! hon . member , you could raise whatever you want to raise towards the Minister of Agriculture and this Chair will not allow you to discuss secretaries who are public servants . You could praise one Department but we won't allow you to discuss the public servants - the secretaries .

MR . S.S. MOTHAPO : Thank you Mr. Chairman but I realise they are part of the whole structure . That is why I refer to them . In any case thank you for your advice. Mr. Chairman there are certain practices which disturb us and we want the Minister to put to rights . There is a way in which they work , which is not right . There are certain dams which have water . When they try to improve these dams they take out the water . My complaint is that these dams should be improved at the time when they do not have water .

MR . M.J. PHASHA : Point of order , Mr. Chairman . My point of order is that the hon . speaker is addressing the Minister directly instead of addressing the Minister through the Chairman .

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MR . S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr. Chairman he has been here for five years but he is lost , he is confused and he won't come back . Mr. Chairman I am adressing the Minister of Agriculture through you . My own advice to the Department of Agriculture is that if ever there are dams which are to be renewed let then be renewed during dry seasons and not when they are already containing some water . Thank you . The other matter upon which I wish to touch is in connection with cattle grazing . In most cases when the officials of the Agricultural Department divide the area into grazing camps they never watch the position of the water supply . At times you find there is only one borehole for ten camps . As a result the cattle trample on the grass in all the camps on their way to the drinking place . I therefore make an appeal to the Department of Agriculture that when they are dividing the area into grazing camps they should provide drinking places in the camps . Thank you Mr. Chairman .

THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . members we now feel that hon . members have said all that they wanted to say . And there is no new question or idea coming . And even if you try to remind a member that he is repeating , he becomes fussy . This Chair now accepts the motion of the hon . E.M. Maloma that we go to item by item .

(THE VOTE WAS THEN TACKLED ITEM BY ITEM )

MR . N.S. MASHIANE : Mr. Chairman , through you I wanted to remark on the Agricultural shows vote of R1 600 item ( 9)

THE CHAIRMAN : We are still on item ( e ) hon . member .

MR . N.S. MASHIANE : Mr. Chairman on item ( g ) ( 13 ) we find that the regional Agricultural shows were not able to get good subsidies in order that they should interest the people . Now I do not know whom this subsidy for shows helps . Does it help Regional or district shows ? Moreover it appears to be little . Last year it was only R1 600. It is the same this year . I wish to ask that the subsidy for the next shows should be increased so that it can help the regional shows .

MR . S.S. MOTHAPO : Mr. Chairman on item ( H ) I see Hostel Equipment mentioned . I want to know which school hostels they are and which type of hostels are being equipped . (THE WHOLE VOTE WAS DISPOSED OF AND ACCEPTED . )

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THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . members it is our privilege now to call upon the Minister of Justice to deliver his policy and budget speech . Over to your hon . Minister .

(POLICY AND BUDGET SPEECH OF JUSTICE )

Mr. Chairman , The hon . the Chief Minister , Cabinet Ministers and hon . members . The Department of Justice can look back on a year in which a few more bridges have been crossed and I think we can look forward to a year in which we will do so again . One of the important bridges Mr. Speaker , is that we have commenced with the taking over of a Police force for Lebowa . We are fortunate in having such a distinguished person as Colonel Van Zyl to assist us in this regard . I must however clearly state what has been taken over so far . Colonel Van Zyl came with three whites , a lieutenant , a warrant officer and a sergeant . Negotiations are well advanced to transfer three Lebowa commissioned officers here to Seshego . The police are therefore set to train Lebowa people in the senior posts from the outset . From the first of April 1977 all the police in Magistrates offices and in the offices of the Town Superintendents are taken over by the Lebowa Police . Apart from placing these unites on a sound basis with the specific requirements of Lebowa in mind now that Lebowa has full control over them , a Police Act will also be prepared and laid before this hon . House during the next session . We hope to have taken some police stations by then . Mr. Speaker , while we are on the subject of police stations I am pleased to report that we have commenced with a police station at Mahwelereng . We also intend starting with one at Naphuno and we are negotiating with the Lebowa Development Corperation for the erection of one , and possibly two police stations . It will still be decided where these will be erected but one will most probably be at Phalaborwa . Now that we are taking over the police function Mr. Speaker I intend to let the police and the traffic section work closely together . It is not the intention to make police out of traffic officers or traffic officers out of police but I intend placing them all under the Commissioner of Police . In this way I will be sure that there will be proper development and also cooperation with the people . Mr. Speaker , I hope by now all the Dikgoŝi have been informed by their Magistrates of a visit by Professor Prinsloo from the Rand Afrikaans University who will visit some Tribes in Lebowa for the purpose of making a start to write down the customary laws of the Northern Sotho in Lebowa . Some of the hon . members might remember that the hon . member for Bolobedu Mr. Modjadji has first raised this matter during a handbook

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his term of office as Minister of Justice . The aim is to prepare a handbook which can be used by the Kgoŝi in his court , by the Magistrate in his court and even by the Supreme court , students and anybody else with an interest in the matter . This is to prevent that what is valuable to Lebowa is lost . It is hoped that a similar study will later be undertaken in respect of the Ndebele . In the meantime I shall be pleased if the necessary assistance can be given in this matter . The question of the Regional court which I have mentioned last year has nearly been finalised Mr. Speaker . There is still the question of arranging the exclusion of the Lebowa areas out of the areas of the Republican Courts and the matter can then be finalised . During November 1976 a three weeks course was held at Lebowakgomo for Tribal constables by the South African Police . All things are progressing and it is also necessary for all the officials of Tribal Authorities to keep in line with progress . The object of fthis course was to give the Tribal Constables some formal trainingg on for instance the various courts , how they function , when and how a person is to be arrested and brought before court . They also drilled and has some shooting exercises . I think they learnt quite a bit but unfortunately Mr. Speaker , only 12 out of 38 were Tribal Constables . The rest were rangers from the Department of Agriculture and Forestry . I hope we will have more interest from the Tribes when we have another course . Mr. Speaker , I think it is necessary to bring to the attention of this hon . House that there are more liquor applications than what is thought good for the people of Lebowa . On h the recommendation of the Liquor Board I am not under present circumstances in favour of allowing more Bottle Store licences to Moutse who have now got 7 or to the bottom part of Mokerong from Mahwelereng to Bakenberg where there are six . I am convinced that these are enough . Parts of Thabamoopo and Seshego are also becoming crowded . I think , Mr. Speaker , that this hon . House will agree that liquor can be dangerious to a nation if it is not handled properly and we must handle it with care . Up till now 68 Bottle Store licences have been granted in Lebowa . Mr. Speaker , the training of people has been and will always be one of the primary functions of my Department . During 1976 there were 51 officials from my Department who were following courses at University . Some of them had previous university training and were furthering their studies . Of these 47 had bursaries . That is the booklearning side . In practice we try and i give every official a good practical training and augment it with practical courses . During the past year 71 officials have attended such courses . The number of citizenised senior posts at present are as follows : Four senior magistrates , nine magistrates and nine principal clerks . It is anticipated to also have an assistant secretary post occupied bya a Lebowa citizen within say two months . I want to assure you Mr. Speaker that every endeavour is made to progress in this regard but it must be done with due consideration of available trained staff with the necessary experience .

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The legislation from my Department which I will present during the session is only the Amendment Bill to the Bantu Administration Act , 1927 ( Act 38/1927) . Mr. Speaker , there is quite a lot of legislation already being prepared for next year . Mr. Speaker , I will now present to this Hon . House the estimates of expenditure for 1977/78 . It would be appreciated if they could be approved . All the relevant figures are in the budget documents which has been tabled and I am only going to refer to the cases where there are differences on the figures of the previous year : VOTE 6

R1 429 000 495 000

Total Provision Increase

MAIN DIVISION A : SALARIES , WAGES AND ALLOWANCESR1 186 300 INCREASE INCREASE 464 600 Basic salaries and wages including fixed allowances and vacation savings bonusses . The approved establishment has increased from 415 to 543 mainly as a result of the police take over and increased salaries and allowances accounts for the rest . MAIN DIVISION B : Subsistence and Transport Increase The increase is due mainly to increase tariffs for transport and subsistence allowances and as a result of the police take over .

187 300 24 800

14 500 MAIN DIVISION C : TELEPHONES 500 INCREASE Mainly due to the police take over . MAIN DIVISION D : PRINTING , ADVERTISEMENTS AND PUBLICATIONS : DECREASE No major additions to the law libraries in Magistrates offices are envisaged for the year . MAIN DIVISION E : MISCELLANEOUS EXPENSES INCREASE

R

7 500 3 500

11 400 6 600

The additional amount required for new office machines , uniforms for police and traffic officers , furniture and equipment for paying out pensions and wages outside offices and , due to the take over of police for the incidental expenses which can not be foreseen .

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MAIN DIVISION F :

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE INCREASE Amount mainly required for increasing witness fees .

8 000 2 000

I would appreciate it Mr. Chairman if this budget could be approved of . No amounts which are not absolutely necessary have been asked for .

In conclusion Mr. Chairman , I would like to express my gratitude to officials in my Department for the responsible manner in which the majority of them have performed their duties during the past year . There are obstacles ..... but we will , as in the past do everything possible to solve them . I move accordingly Mr. Chairman .

THE CHAIRMAN : The Policy and Budget speech of the Department of Justice has been read to you . I can see you have tabulated questions already . We shall therefore call upon the hon . S.S. Mathapo . MR . S.S. MOTHAPO : Thank you Mr. Chaiman . Mr. Chairman I have noticed one disease in the Department of Justice . There is a shortage of vehicles in all police stations , so much that at times you find in accidents the police would be of immediate help , and would save the lives of people it is not possible . Because of this shortage , you find that there is one police man , listening to the telephones . Even where a criminal could have been quickly arrested , matters grow worse because of shortage of vehicles . Looking at these estimates it becomes clear that even this year the police stations will not be supplied with vehicles . Mr. Chairman if we can have enough police and enough police vehicles crime and chicanary will be abolished in Lebowa.` At Sebayeng you will find only one police man in the office . He has no car , he has nothing , he is just sitting in the office . Should a problem crop up , he is not able to rescue in any way. My second print is in connection with Road Blocks in towns for a week or after two weeks . The most painful part of these road blocks is that they stop only the blacks . What is surprising is that when a white appears in a 1969 model car , smoking from behind , it is given a pass . A 1974 model car belonging to a black is stopped . I want to know if the rules of the road are made only for the blacks . If this dicrimination is practised only by the traffic officers , would it not serve a good purpose if they were removed from service , and be replaced by others who would carry out the law and forget discriminating according to colour? Mr. Chairman in all the developed countries , law knows no colour . It is unfortunate that in South Africa , law knows colour . And it seems the Department of Justice in Lebowa is inheriting this type of attitude towards people .

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On other point I want to know is why is it that when these road officers meet your car which does not smoke and shows no other defects they write you a note to the effect that you should take your car for testing instead of looking to see what the weakness of the car is . Much of your time is wasted by going up and down taking the car for testing . The matter of the law knowing colour , does not promote good human relations . It shows hatred and the spirit of war . This matter needs to be taken care of . The last point . I understand there are tribal police who I understand are being given refresher courses . I am not able to understand how you reach these people in the same calss where one left school after standard I , another after standard 6 and the other after Form II . What I think would do would be to subsidise these people in their education so that a minimum standard for tribal police could be stipulated . These police should know at least under what conditions a person is to be arrested . Mr. Chairman nobody can deny that knowledge is power .

MR . M.W. KGATLA : Thank you Mr. Chairman Sir , one of my questions is : what is the determination population number which is required when applying for a bottle store like in any other business , like a restaurant a general dealer , a butchery etc. etc? You go to some ytowns in the Transvaal here , like Dendron ; you find a very small town which can go four times into Seshego . It has about one , two or three bottle stores . You can go and look at a township like Seshego here , as big as it is . It has only one bottle store right at a corner . I don't know what happens if a man wants to have his sip at 7 o clock from Zone I. How will he traval all along from Zone III . Why did you not extend the House of the Bolobedu Magistrate , as you promised last year ? That house looks like some of these match boxes and that is not a sitting house for a man of his legal qualifications . A man whom tomorrow you will promote to become an assistant secretary , aren't you ashamed of having to house him in a match box . I have five questions hear dealing with the Department of traffic . Unfortunately you never even said a single sentence on that Department as if it doen't belong to your Department . How many African Traffic Officers were fired since the establishment of the Traffic Department in Lebowa? How many resigned on their own since then and what were their reasons? When a learner or a permanent driver applicant is tested are you following section 64 ( 1 ) of the Lebowa Act No. 8 of 1973. In that section , it is stated rom the law that we made in this House that any applicant for a learner or a permanent resi ing driver's licence must be tested in the district in which he is permanently residing . In other words you can't test a mail rom Mapulaneng at Mukerong .

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We have realised thaty you take even people from the European areas and test them all over the shore . Recruit people from other districts and go and test them - from other districts . We smell a rat . Why are learners or permanent driver applicants being tested at Letsitele Citrus Cooporation for Code 5 in the European areas outside Lebowa? And my question threee reads : Where is the money going after they have been tested in the bush and not in the area of Lebowa ? Why are transfers in the Department of traffic just` done so abrusptly without due notice ? One domestic problem like children at school , housing etc. is never taken into consideration , contrary to the resolution passed in this House in 1974 that a married man or not a married man must be given a due notice in order that he can arrange for housing for his children at school etc. etc. , and that must take place at the end of the year , and not in two weeks time after christmas . Mr. Chairman through you I want to alert the Minister that` when answering these question of mine properly , about the traffic Department you will answer me for my piloting of that notice of mine on traffic .

MR . H.M. LESHABANE : Thank you Mr. Chairman . I want to thank the Minister for this short report . This just shows that for the twelve months , you didn't do much Mr. Minister . I can't understand how a man with so many sections could do only three pages of his report of 12 months . Any way Mr. Chairman to the Minister how many legally qualified people are in your Department ? What position do they hold? I have noticed in your speech that you haven't got a chief clerk in your department , but you talk about an under secretary in your department for two months to come . Why do you want to do it after parliament and you know its our last year here . Mr. Chairman , this is in the interest of me as a politician . It is in the interest of the Lebowa people in general . That is why I am entitled to know . I realise that in some of your Magistrates offices the relationship between the tribal authorities and the Magistrates are very bad . Are you aware of this ? What are you going to do about it . You know this government is the government of Love and Peace . We want peace in the districts . Mr. Chairman to the Minister , I want to welcome the department of police in the Lebowa area . What are your plans regarding the police department at Sek gosese , because you Baid nothing in your speech about it . What are your future plans about coating police stations around the whole Lebowa? I also realise in the police department that you employ people without accommodation . Master and Servant Act says employer shall employ any body and it is the responsibility of the employer to see the employed is housed .

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Are you aware that most of the people in the police force are married men? And you put them in the shacks at Gakgapane? As such I would like the police in the whole Lebowa to be Housed properly . I have gathered that you have taken houses from the residents and offered them to the police . If this is true , don't you think that you are antagonising the relationship between the police and the residents . Because it is my contention that the police in Lebowa are not police but peace officers . But if you are going to take things belonging to the people and give them to the police , honestly there is something wrong . When do you transfer people in your department particularly those who have families? I have realised that a transfer can be done any minute , at any minute , irrespective of whether he has children who are attending school . Nobody bothers about that . I would like a modified reply here . I am worried about your traffic department . You usually tell us that administration is not our business , we are politicians but never- the - less you must know when people have problems , they come to us . And I am telling you , we will keep on interfering because your` administation is dealing with our voters . We are getting salaries every month from them . And we must perform certain things towards them . So , please Sir , with due respect to you , do allow us to assist but not really to interfere because law and order must be maintained in Lebowa . Law and order can only be maintained if we are jointly doing that ; not only to leave certain sections of the people working alone . I have realised that most of the members of the Traffic Department have no houses again . If you transfer a man from Sekgosese to Sekhukhuneland , you don't even make sure in Sekhukhuneland he will be able to be housed . You just say " tommorrow report there " , without looking into the interest of the family . And I want to say to you Sir , if this is not happening you must look into that and make corrections because the good man is the one who acknowledge the errors and say " I am going to do something about it . And then he really does something about it . Mr. Chairman sir , we have been saying so many words , and now here I want to sound a warning that we don't want to hear words , we want to see deeds . I know some of the people say let them talk and make noise . They will go away , and we will do what we like . They won't go too long . Sometime we will make a petition to the Cabinet from outside and say they are not doing the right thing ; and they must call parliament forthwith . That goes to all of you gentlement . THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . member when you speak try to choose your words . There are not gentlmen here , but we have hon . members .

MR . H.M. LESHABANE: Thank you Mr. Chairman I want to know what is the relationship between the T.P.A. and your Traffic Department of Lebowa .

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Mr. Chairman while I am addressing you here , the Chief Whip here Mr. Mathole is trying to interfere with me ; and I will not stomach that . You'd better warn him or tell him to get out if possible . Your protection please sir .

THE CHAIRMAN : All right we will see to him . MR L.G. MATHOLE : Point of order Mr. Chairman . I am here to interfere if you say you will see to him .

MR . H.M. LESHABANE : Did you give him a point of order Mr. Chairman , because you didn't order me to sit down ? Can you see the way he is behaving ? That is not procedure of parliament . I object because if he wants point of order , and you must order me to sit down , then he can say his point of order . He is interfering right now , and I am not going to have this type of thing ,

MR . L.G. MATHOLE : On a point of order Mr. Chairman . There are certain words which are spoken under these circumstances

MR . H.M. LESHABANE : Unless I am ordered by you to sit down , then he can't make his point of order . That is the procedure of the House . MR . L.G. MATHOLE : Point of order Mr. Chairman .

THE CHAIRMAN : Order hon . members , the Chair will not tolerate this . It does appear every afternoon there must be a row in this House and we won't tolerate this .

MR . L.G. MATHOLE : On a point of order Mr. Chairman . Subject to our Rules of Procedure , Rule No. 41 there is an imputation from your statement and which I cannot challenge . THE CHAIRMAN : Hon . member , the Chair allowed you . The hon . H.M. Leshabane continue .

has not

MR . H.M. LESHABANE : I honour your protection .

THE CHAIRMAN : Continue hon . member .

MR . H.M. LESHABANE : Hon . Minister seeing that I have been taken off my trend , I want to express my thanks and to request that in future you should give us the details of your budget because that will save the

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time of the House . As we can see everything , we won't ask you so many questions . Thank you .

MR . L.G. MATHOLE : Point of order Mr. Chairman .

THE CHAIRMAN : The hon . Seloane Nkadimeng .

MR.L.G. MATHOLE : Mr. Chairman , I am requesting a point of order . When are my privileges going to be respected? I am requesting a point of order , that is all . That's nonsense man , when are our rights going to be reserved? This is rubbish .

THE CHAIRMAN : Continue hon . member .

MR . M.W. KGATLA : On a point of order Mr. Chairman . The House has been put in a very awkward position and we cannot go on .

MR . M.J. PHASHA : Mr. Chairman , I am standing on a point of order . The Chair is out of order, to allow on a point of order when you have just recently refused another hon . member on a point of order . Thank you .

MR . M.W. KGATLA : On a point of order Mr. Chairman . I just wanted to state that the House should be enlightened as to whether under the circumstances

MR . M.J. PHASHA : On a further point of order Mr. Chairman . Mr. Chairman I made this point of order that if a member is not allowed a point of order , how can the next member be allowed a point of order in this order?

THE CHAIRMAN : Order ! The hon . S.H. Nkadimeng , continue please .

MR . S.H. NKADIMENG : Thank you Mr. Chairman . I want to know how long it takes to promote an assistant Magistrate to a position of a full fledged magistrate , who will be given charge of office . How many have been promoted this year? When the Department of Justice took over the Division of the police , will there be no changes in the salaries of the police ? Won't the police be made to suffer ? What is the comment of the Department of Justice on the issuing of the licences for intoxicating Liquor? It would appear the nation is going to be disadvanteged becauase of drunkenness . By how many kilometers should bottle stores be separated . In Sekhukhuneland we have a pound -master .

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He does not notify the people when he sells the impounded cattle . There is partiality in this selling . How is your department going to help in this respect ? They hide some of the cattle which should be auctioned . I thank you Mr. Chairman .

MR . S.P.KWAKWA : Mr. Chairman , in the first place I was going to refer to the question of Houses and I do realise that this does not only pertain to your department but senior people in all departments are transferred . A question has been raised and I hope you will follow it up. The number of the traffic inspectors who have been 、 dismissed and the reasons why they have been dismissed , I wish to emphasize that question . Now for the rest I wish to be objective . May the Minister give attention to criminal activities which are rife on the railway buses , particularly those buses going to Sekhukhuneland . I noticed this when I was at Boaparankwe . One time when I was in Groblersdal , the big men , three grown up men , jumped off the bus and the man who was standing next to me drew my attention to them : "you know those are the professional pickpockets . These men board the bus for the express purpose of pickpocketing the passengers " . Pickdpocketing has become a profession to them , and they do it with impurity . Another man said" This is small matter . You just go to the place where people change from one bus to the other , you will see what is happening there " . During the periods of long weekends they say : " you will only have to go to Jane Furse and see there people being pickpocketed " . Now Mr. Chairman , this small time criminal activities give birth to more serious criminal practices . That is my second request . May the hon . Minister develop a crack police squad which should deal with a spill of serious crime from the Urban areas . We cannot remain indifferent to what has happened to the father of our colleague here ; to what has happened to one of our teachers at Motetema not so long ago ; to what has happened to a business man at Zebediela . These people were shot point blank and this is just starting from those pickpockets ; and later on these criminals are armed and they go shooting people and robbing them . I wish to appeal to the Minister that he should think very seriously about curbing these criminal activities before they assume serious proportions . Thank you Mr. Chairman . MR . L.G. MATHOLE : Point of order Mr. Chairman . I am very much perturbed at your bad administration as a Chair forgetting that you have been elected by us . I am very much perturbed , that after when you said . " I cannot allow your point of order" , you allowed another hon . member . In the process you have prejudised my point of order . I am very much disturbed that the secretaries have interfered with you very much at certain angles .

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I want one point to be proved , that when Mr. Leshabane who was speaking I interfered and he referred to me as gentleman . That is why I refer to him as Mrf Leshabane . Politically speaking and by way of debate we allow heckling but there is no hon . member who can come and prove that I heckled Mr. Leshabane down . And he hon . Mr. Leshabane was preaching Rule No. 41 of our Rules of Procedure .

MR . H.M. LESHABANE : Point of order Mr. Chairman . My point of order is that he gentlemen has stood on a point of order to say contain thing and I can see now he is now giving a speech . MR . L.G .. MATHOLE : Mr. Chairman Sir , my point of order is still existing because it was interrupted by the direction of the Chair . May I at this juncture submit to you a notice of a motion that I will move tomorrow . I am going to move Mr. Chairman tomorrow that we suspend the decision about the vote of Justice .

MR . P.S. KWAKWA : Point of order Mr. Chairman . We must be a dignified House . It doesn't matter how we differ , and we differ very sharply . I think we must still contain ourselves . I think the hon . member honestly the first thing he should have done was to apologise to this House for his unbecoming manner when he wacked out of this House , and then demand for his rights . Then he would have our support . MR . L.G. MATHOLE : Point of order Mr. Chairman . Mr. Chairman the word " unbecoming " is very uncivilized . I ask for apology . I am insulted . I request an apology .

KGOSHI JL MAHLANGU : Mr. Chairman I have one question . In his budget and policy speech the hon . the Minister of Justice mentioned the Division of the police . Now here is my question in connection with the police pensions . I want to know how they are administered . Those of the Central Government and those of the Lebowa Government . In the Central Government they get 10% pension while in the Lebowa Government they get 7% why is there a difference while the Division of the police is the same . The police will then go away from our goverhment to the Central Government . Thank you .

MR . S.L. DIGASHU : Mr. Chairman I thank the Minister for his speech . I do not have many questions . I want to know how many black lieutenants and captains . Is there a difference between the black station commander and a white commander . Would you not explain their salaries seing that here in the Homelands they do every thing . Do the police in Lebowa operate under the Rules of the Central Government or under Lebowa rules . Will they be supplied with a Lebowa uniform . In his speech the Minister mentioned that the traffic officers are not connected with the Lebowa police .

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If there is a Lebowa melitia , when did Lebowa get that? The Minister spoke about one police station at Mahwelereng . As far as I know in Mokerong we have eleven tribal authorities . When is the Minister intending to supply police stations to the other tribal authorities . Recently I visited the 24 Rivers police station . I found the police as well as the station commander , not well accommodated .

People coming to listen to cases , sit down on the floor and stretch their legs . There are no benches on which to sit . Doesn't the Minister deem it necessary that they be supplied with benches , to sit on ? Are all our Lebowa constables armed? If they are not , why? Let them be supplied with fire arms all of them because these are difficult days . Mr. Chairman we had difficulties in Sekhukhuneland where the police has to intervene . How can they be expected to cope with such problems , if they are not armed with fire arms . Also I say that when they knock off , they should not leave their fire arms because the people may attack them at their homes . They also protect us . The last big question to the Minister of Justice . Did the Minister of Justice ever pay a visit to the Magistrate office at Mahwelereng ? If ever he did , what did he see and what was he not satisfied with . A big office of the Department of Justice is roofed with reeds . I request the Minister to remove those things and use iron or tiles . If he is not able to roof it , it would be better if he removed that office so that it should cease to exist . In that place there is a place for old men , old women and cripples who require protection . I strove hard to get that place improved . Let the Minister of Justice follow up this matter .

THE CHAIRMAN : Just before the hon . A.S. Mahlangu speaks the Chief Minister would like to meet all M.P.'s from the Eastern Region in his office tomorrow at 8h15 .

MR . A.S. MAHLANGU : Mr. Chairman thank you for this opportunity of thanking the Minister for the policy speech of Justice . There is nothing with his speech . It is a good speech . All that is required is to make remarks here and there . I want to know because people's cattle have been stolen , what steps did the Minister take ? Our cattle have all been stolen , stolen by the police . If your cattle are lost and you go to report the matter to the police , they record and tell you that they will help you in seeking for them ; yet the cattle have been stolen by them . When they find them they take them further away to hide them where they graze in secret . So the cattle become theirs . We used to think that other people were stealing them , whereas it is the government police who steal . I am not dreaming . Just now the Nebo police have been imprisoned for stealing our cattle .

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Just now over thirty head of cettle have been stolen . Now where is our salvation , if the government itself a thief? Now we are faced with building our own black government and it is the black constables who steal . We speak protestingly towards them . You want the black police who have finished our cattle ? Even in the Traffic Division there is a great danger to the blacks . I am afraid just there . Tomorrow start with me .

THE CHAIRMAN : On this note this House should adjourn until tomorrow at 9 o'clock .

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1977 :

FRIDAY MAY THE 6TH .

The sitting commenced at 9h00 . The Speaker reads a prayer . Mr M.J. Phasha seconded by Kgosi M.E. Mogashoa moved that the minutes be adopted . The House then goes to the Committee Stage . The Chairman resumes his seat .

COMMITTEE STAGE ON THE SPEECH OF THE MINISTER

OF JUSTICE . THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Hon . House , the House is now in committee . When we adjourned yesterday the hon . Andries Mahlangu was still making his observations . MR H.M. LESHABANE : Mr Chairman , I take today is Friday and a day of questions . And we expect answers from our hon . Minister . Then thereafter we may continue with other business THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Hon . House , I wonder why you always drag me backwards because according to the Order Paper , you have gone through no . 10. And at that stage there were no questions . Shall we proceed . The hon . Andries Mahlangu . MR A.S. MAHLANGU : Thank you, Mr Chairman . I was still to continue with the Department of Justice in connection with the police . As I have mentioned yesterday that we have no place of rescue . When we try to secure a rescue from the police , we ultimately realise that we do this to thieves . What makes me to talk like that is that our police need protection from this House . I wonder how could we protect them whilst they are thieves . Recently I heard the hon . members talking about these traffic cops . We just protect them because they are our people . I don't speak them ill but what they are doing is bad indeed . Now I ask the Minister of Justice about these traffic cops . Just now if somebody need a licence he must buy it in essence . I want to know from you the Minister the steps you have thus far taken with the traffic cops to sell licences to people ; I am not dreaming hon . Minister . You personally and your department got them red- handed at Nebo busy receiving briberies from the people in order to get driver's licence . Even at Sekhukhuneland the same case of bribery is happening . Do you know how much do they make people to pay! If they say pay R160 for licence , you do pay so as to get it . You can just see the state of affairs , we say they are good whereas they cause people to suffer . It would be better if they say give us an ox and you'll get a licence . The Minister knows that they have a case at Eensaam of a person making somebody to give out an ox for a licence . If you say Whites give you tough time , they toy around with you , firing you from jobs , what do you say about all these? I just wanted to make you aware on that point . I was on the point of customary union and civil marriage . What is the proper one? In civil marriage the chief is not allowed to prosecute on any divorce case . They say they must get to the court of law . We Blacks don't have such . We marry to each other here according to our custom . The only snag is due to acculturation that we happen to mix the two systems of marriages viz . civil marriage and customary union . According

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to the transaction of marriage in a civil way , no lobola is delivered , only a ring serves the purpose . Wedding feast is also there and property for the new family from the bride and bridegroom plays an important part . Now in our case we deliver lobola . And this takes a form of feast , a goat or an ox is slaughtered And the family that is going to receive lobola slaughters an ox . I feel our proper system of marriage be maintained and cancel the civil marriage .

KGOŠI K.P. PHASHA : Thank you , Mr Chairman . Mr Chairman , I have a few questions towards the Minister . I learned from the Minister's policy speech that he has founded a section of police under the Department of Justice . I want to know if anything concerning the section of Police Force was ever discussed in this House? If he has accepted this section of Police is he aware that this is a department by itself? If he has found that this is a department by itself has he enough funds to maintain it?^ If this section is there is he aware that it has dealings with the Department of Defence ? We Lebowans did say that we don't want to opt for independence But because of this section of Police which has dealings with the Department of Defence it is obvious now that we are heading towards independence . I understand that we don't want total independence but we are doing things that are being done by independent people .

I also heard him talking about traffic cops . I want to know if these traffic cops are provided with strong cars because I usually see them using beetles which are not even faster . Whites are using strong station wagons which can run as faster . A beetle can't cover up even that constantia of mine . Again I heard you talking about tribal police men . Now in their training are they going to make use of guns? It has been mentioned in his policy speech that 12 of the policemen to be trained will come from the tribes . I want to know from which constituencies are they to come ? Where are they going to be trained and when did the tribal authorities know of this . Some of us were never informed that tribal policemen will be needed for training . When does he expect us to bring those people? What steps did the Minister take against people who shoot others in their houses? What is the stumbling block that all the magoši of Lebowa should get fire - arms? This question I did pose last year . Our pension paying- officers are not given good cars . I observed this quite several times . When they leave pension- payers their cars must get a push in order to start . Mind you these cars carry a lot of money in them . Do you attend to this case? And usually these pension- officers are accompanied by one police man . We see all these happenings at Sekhukhuneland . Why does a pensioner who dies while on the queu for receiving pay he /she forfeits the payment? Such an incident once happened at Naboomkopies on the side of Praktiseer . The pensionofficers refused a request by Kgosi Motodi's officers to pay the deceased fellow . Even now I can't tell if that late fellow got his payment . So , I want to know if there is a rule that forbids payment to the person who dies on the queu to receive his pension

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pay . What is the procedure for a person to have a fire- arm for self-defence? KGOŠI T.J. MOTHAPO : Thank you , Mr Chairman . The Minister mentioned that there will be Mr Prinsloo of the Randse University to come and help in the compiling of the Lebowa statute . The hon . Professor will start with the one for Northernspeakers and thereafter the Ndebeles . That step to be taken is appreciated by those who do not want us and the Ndebeles to form one thing . I don't like it . Now we are in a mass of problems on boundary issue with people from all over ; for instance Moutse . The Hon . Minister stated that he has given a guide during November to state and tribal police as ours to progress in their career . We at Thabamoopo don't know such . THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Order , hon . member I don't know whether you have not yet come in when that question was raised by the hon . Kgoši K.P. Phasha , that in their area they were not informed .

KGOŠI T.J. MOTHAPO : I am talking about Thabamoopo . I am talking about Sekhukhuneland . We belong to Thabamoopo . I say we at Thabamoopo do not know anything about that training . THE CHAIRMAN OF THE COMMITTEES : Order , hon . member . A question is put to the Minister and that question affects the whole of Lebowa . So don't repeat that question .

KGOŠI T.J. MOTHAPO : On the application forms for bottle stores I usually see being written that the Blacks that will buy liqour will be from twelve years upwards . And they even qoute section 18 of Act 73. I don't know if there is such an item to identify people according to race or colour . In his policy speech the Minister stated that there are four magistrates and he is prepared to promote some of them in the near future . What does the Minister do about the situation at Mokerong where there is a separation in the affairs of the N. Sothos- and Ndebeles ? What do you do at Mapulaneng? What about Naphuno? Moutse? I say so because the magistrates at these places I have named , believe in separation . The Minister should pay attention to these problems because our people are complaining . How does the Minister pay the following people , the police , sergeant , warrant- officer , lieutenant and captain . Last year I made the Minister aware of the discs of the cars licences . The paper used is not a proper one and letters get quickly erased . I think we shall consult the Gazankulu and Venda for guidance because theirs are similar to those of the Transvaal Provincial Admini stration . I don't know as to whether these certificates of ours come from 0.K. or Checkers . Please honourable Minister we want good things here in Lebowa . Any traffic cop either from Lebowa or T.P.A. is able to identify a car of any person of Lebowa from far because of these discs . Thank you! MR M.T. BOPAPE : Thank you , Mr Chairman . I have only two questions to the Minister of Justice . I want to know if the Minister checked what is going on in the traffic cops ' offices .. If you can visit their offices and testing grounds , you'll find many people there . You'll find that all these people are being attended by two people only . You find one person checking cars that need to be tested , on the other hand attending those

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who want forms for learners licence . Another one is busy with cars on the road and on his return he helps in testing those who are coming for drivers licences . Could you please help these people . It is possible that you buy a car and take three months before it gets registered . When we consider this matter carefully we found that these people's job is too much . I remember one time the traffic cop told me to request the Minister on their behalf that the Minister should pay a visit to their offices and see what is happening there . So , I request the Minister to go and have a check at Moutse offices . And if we are not careful this thing will cause our traffic cops to desert us . The Minister in your policy speech I heard you mentioning that licences for bottle stores are too many . I want to know if you mean that those licences are no more to be issued? If you are going to do that , when are they going to be issued again ? I request that an Act which will stop an issue of licences be passed so that our regional authority , the one that receives applications for business should be able to convince applicants . Such an Act should be given also to the magistrates in various districts to make it known to people . MR P.L. KEKANA : Thank you , Mr Chairman and members of the Parliament . I want to know if we are welcomed in the Minister of Justice's office? I know he will say yes , but I don't think is real . I know that one can go there twice or thrice before being attended . And the time they call you in, they say come in, we don't have much time for you . How many people were transferred from P.P. Rust to some other places? How many good people resigned and those who are still to resign? Are the magistrates members of the regional authorities? If they are not why do they have powers of saying such and such a thing is not wanted? I want to know through , Mr Chairman , if there is any Black person who may claim not to have a home or kgoši ? I pose this question because the people at Mokerong claim not to have a chief and belong to the whites on their farms .

The third question . Do the traffic cops at Mokerong arrest those who exceeded the normal speed limit? If they do , how do they do this ? I will tell you about a certain incident that happened there . One time a certain White fellow was given a drove away and ticket of R100 for driving 120 km . Thereafter came back at a speed of 180km . He told them that they could do whatever they wanted , he was not prepared to pay it . Now the senior to that traffic cop asked him why he arrest the boss . What happened the next time was that that traffic cop was transferred to Bushbuckridge . I want to know from the Minister if he knows what is happening near him at Abbotspoort? There is a bachelor of a white fellow there owning shopping centres . Mind you that is our place . But the Minister won't allow my unmarried son run a bottle store there . And in future that place will be full of coloureds . In the policy speech of the Minister heard him mentioning that he want to give other people a licences for bottle stores . If this is the case why do you trouble yourself with liqour Board?

KGOSI P.S. PHASHA :

Thank you , Mr Chairman .

I was impressed by the Minister's policy speech . I have a few simple questions that might be of a great value if taken into

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consideration . In connection with the recently established section under the Department of Justice , do the policemen have more powers of arresting than during the time they were under the Central Government? Are they allowed to arrest a white man here in Lebowa if he is causing trouble ? If not so what is the remedy to such an incident? Why shouldn't he arrest him? The second question is on the matters of prosecution . Are the most educated people exempted from the chief's prosecution? I refer to matters or cases that can be handled by chiefs . A^ lay man can commit an offence and be brought to the chief's kraal . But in case of a learned somebody such a thing is not done to him for the fear of receiving a letter from his legal representative that warns you against an action that you intend taking . We really fear the repercussions thereof . Now what are we to do about this situation? Thirdly, the Hon . chief's had it tough under the system of reservation of petrol . There are urgent matters to attend even on Sundays . And without petrol this amounts to a failure . Can't your department the hon . Minister , negotiate with the authorities concerned to give chiefs permits of filling their cars with petrol on Sundays? The honourable ! MR E.M. MALOMA: Thank you , Mr Chairman . Under your protection I wish to reveal to the House about the difficulties that we experience because our Department of Justice is an unfortunate one . It is generally known that the department that restores order as a cruel one to an extent of killing a person . The department is very much cruel due to untrustworthy in the magistrates , police and the traffic cops . It is well- known that the magisterial offices are stealing the monies of the public and the Government . It has been discovered that they are subjected under strict authority . I understand that magistrates have power of taking with them the Government's money to their homes . And such powers have been given to them by the Department of Justice . And again a very pathetic case that is happening , it has been discovered that the relatives or acquaintances of the magistrates are not prosecuted , even the Minister's acquaintances , clerks or relatives . Your department allows a person to refund the money he has stolen . The Minister still remember that he allowed somebody to refund R300 which he has taken . He never wished that person not to be prosecuted because he was to be promoted as a judge in the Regional Court . I want to know why others should not be given the same treatment ? We have seen this case happening at Sekhukhuneland . Plate numbers , for Lebowa were sold by the magistrates . But still the magistrates were allowed to run the other form of business that had no dealings with Lebowa and they were paid by these firms concerned . These things encourage our traffic cops to like bribery . It is very much discouraging to note that the magistrate is really doing bad to the public instead of helping . And again it is very much discouraging to come to the notice that a traffic cop with code 8 tests a person for either code 10 or 11 , or a std I traffic cop is testing a B.A.chap for learners licence . You'll find that usually such a traffic cop is not clear about his matter and as a result concentrates to the section that he

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understand much better , for instance road signs . Mr Chairman , it is also discouraging to note that the officers employed at our pounds have no experience . This put us at our disadvantage because they buy our cattles at R20 each and sell them somewhere else with a better amount . MR M.J. PHASHA : Mr Chairman , firstly I would like to ask about a point mentioned in the Minister of Justice's policy speech that bottle stores in Lebowa are too many. He made it clear that this recommendations have been supported by the Liquor Board . The Liquor Board held its meetings monthly and the Regional Authority's meetings are held quarterly . Now , Mr Chairman , I want to know how the Minister of Justice is going to stop the issuing of licences to the applicants whilst meetings are so regularly held? Has the Liquor Board considered the periods of meetings in thought of decreasing the issuing of licences . Secondly, I am complaining about the manner in which the magisterial offices at Sekhukhune land are cared for . For instance it is almost ten years that half of the staff has been accommodated in the corrugated irons houses which were supposed to be offfices . The houses were brought as temporary measures to relieve the staff . NOISE THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : hon . member .

Order , order?

Continue

MR M.J. PHASHA : Thank you , Mr Chairman for your protection . Mr Chairman , I say the staff was increasing at Sekhukhuneland magisterial offices . Such houses were necessary for temporary accommodation . Now I am surprised for these are no more serving as temporary residence but as permanent . These houses are very hot in summer and very cold in winter . We usually go there for in- services and they are very much intolerable . I appeal to the Minister of Justice to pay attention to this matter . Those houses are unhealthy for the staff . I would like to know if it is impossible for the Minister to supply the magistrate with the facilities that are of their status . You see our place has got bad roads and our magistrate there make use of a beetle for his trips . I personally feel that the facilities provided for our magistrate are of a low standard as compared to other magistrate in other districts .

KGOŠI E.M. CHILOANE : Mr Chairman , I listened very carefully to the policy speech of the Minister of Justice . I have an advice here concerning theft at Mapulaneng . There is a traffic cop from Gazankulu that gives our people of Lebowa a tough time . He gives them tickets on the roads and still maintain to perpetuate the arrest until such time that they have changed their registration numbers from Lebowa to that of Gazankulu . He even arrest them at this side of Lebowa , but on the receipt he writes that he arrested them in Gazankulu area . On the 2nd April 1977 I found him writing down a certain chap from Malatji claiming that he was driving in the Gazankulu area . But he can drive in the area of Lebowa ..... This has worried the people of Lebowa greatly and they requested the Minister to talk to the Gazankulu Government to advice that traffic cop not to repeat that .

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There is a road there at Bushbuckridge towards Rounie , he waits there sometimes and if he becomes unsuccessful he takes the other one to Pereta . All the time he is after the people of Lebowa . They were even of an idea of fighting him and we requested them not to do that . We promised to take the matter with the Minister of Justice . There is another problem about policemen . They also give us toughtime . I don't know why there is a knife case they are reluctant when calling them. They will tell you to take the stabbed person to the hospital and they will attend to the case later on . Thank you ! I MR D.M. MODJADJI ; Mr Chairman , I have a few questions to ask. Under the central Government a policeman who is late at parade was held to his honour . I wish to know if this happens to our police man . I also want to know if the police men under our Government receives their pensions after retiring . THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES : Order! House should adjourn until Monday at 10h00 .

THE

HOUSE

HAD ADJOURNED AT 11h00

On that note this