Mavericks of the mind: conversations for the new millenium, interviews 0895946025, 0895946017

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Mavericks

MIND

the

CONVERSATIONS FOR THE NEW MILLENNIUM Terence McKenna Riane Eisler & David Loye Robert Trivers

Nick Herbert Ralph Abraham Robert Anton Wilson Timothy Leary Rupert Sheldrake Carolyn Mary Kleefeld Colin Wilson Oscar Janiger

John C.Lilly Nina Graboi Laura Huxley Allen Ginsberg

^enLaBerge

IXrERMEWSB)

Jay

Brown & Rebecca McCijen Novick

Mavericks Of the

MIND

Digitized by the Internet Archive in

2012

http://archive.org/details/mavericksofmindcOObrow

Mavericks Of the

MIND

CONVERSATIONS FOR THE

NEW MILLENNIUM

Interviews by

David Jay Brown & Rebecca McClen Novick

The Crossing

Press,

Freedom,

CA 95019

To our Mothers

Arken &Noreen

Cover

art

&

&

Rebecca McClen Novick design by AnneMarie Arnold

1993 by David Jay Brown

Copyright

Book design by

Amy

Sibiga

Printed in the U.S.A.

Mavericks of

the

mind: conversations for the new millenium, interviews / by

David la) Brown p. (

Rebecca McClen Novick.

cV

cm.

McKenna, Riane Eisler& David Loye,

onversations with Terence

Robert Trivers, Nick Herbert, Ralph Abraham, Timoth)

Anion

\\ ilson,

Rupert Sheldrake,

u laniger, John

I

illy,

Nina

(

(

I

eary, Robert

arolyn Mar) Kleefeld,

rraboi,

I

(

Solin

Wilson,

ama Huxle) Stephen .

iBerge, Allen Ginsbt

i

ISBN I

II

hi

(

5

onsciousncss

No*

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ISBN

and Body.

89S94-601-7 (pbk.) I.

Hi own. David Jay.

Rebecca Mc( Jea

M4267

1991 153- dc20

92 38992

OP

— ——

An

important lesson that

Acknowledgments we learned from doing

communication are worked as a team to put

patience, tolerance, and

this

book

is

that cooperation,

most of the world's problems. We really this book together, and it was a balancing act that required much delicate coordination. It took about four years to complete, and although there was a great deal of work involved we did have a lot of fun. The collaboration of

many

others

made

Carolyn Kleefeld and Nina Graboi the interviews. at

High Times

it

the keys to solving

possible.

who both

We would like to extend special thanks to

helped tremendously

in

arranging

We would also like to thank our favorite magazine editor Judy for her support,

and Jeanne

with Oscar Janiger while Rebecca was

in

St. Peter,

who

many of

McGuire

helped conduct the interview

England.

In addition, we would like to express our sincere gratitude to Gabrielle Alberici, Randy Baker, Bob Banner, Debra Berger, Steven Brown, Allyn Brodsky, Brummbaer, Linda Capetillo-Cunliffe, Barbara Clarke-Lilly, Robin Christianson-Day, Elizabeth Gips, Deborah Harlow, Betsy Herbert, Larry Hughes, Dan Joy, Jeff Labno, Lisa LyonLilly, Joe & Nina Matheny, Ronny Novick, Andrew Shachat, Douglas Trainer, Silvia Utiger, Victoria Vaughn, Nur Wesley, Aden Wilson, and wonderful friends too numer-

ous to mention, for their contributions and support during the development of this project. We would also like to express our deepest appreciation to all the people we interviewed for their invaluable time and energy. Previously Published Excerpts from Interviews

Ralph Abraham tional

International Synergy Journal #9, Spring, 1990, pp. 38-51. Interna-

Synergy Newsletter,

vol. 1,

No.

2,

1990,

p. 3, pp. 7-8.

Mondo 2000

#3,

Winter, 1991, pp.150-154.

Nina Graboi

High Times, June, 1992,

pp. 12-16.

John Lilly—High Times, May, 1992, pp. 12-16. Magical Blend #36, Summer/Fall, 1992, pp. 44-50,

p. 82.

McKenna

Critique #31, Summer/Fall, 1989, pp. 58-60. High Times, April, 1992, pp. 12-16, 60-62. The Archaic Revival (Harper/San Francisco,1991) pp. 204-

Terence

216.

Robert Anton

Wilson— Critique #32

Fall/Winter, 1989-90, pp. 77-81.

Table of Contents

Preface

1

Rebecca McClen Novick

Introduction

3

David Jay Brown

Mushrooms,

Elves,

and Magic

9

Terence

McKenna

& David Loye

Raising the Chalice

25

Replicating Genes

53

Robert Trivers

67

Nick Herbert

89

Ralph Abraham

Faster

Than

Faster

Than Light

Chaos and Erodynamics Cosmic Trigger

Riane

Eisler

109

Robert Anton Wilson

Cybernautics and Neuro-antics

127

Timothy Leary

In the Prescence of the Past

140

Rupert Sheldrake

Singing Songs of Ecstasy

157

Outside the Outsider

172

Colin Wilson

182

Oscar Janiger

Firing the

Psychiatric

Alchemy

From Here

and Beyond

Carolyn

Mary Kleefeld

C Lilly

203

John

Stepping into the Future

226

Nina Graboi

Bridging Heaven and Earth

239

Laura Huxley

261

Allen Ginsberg

279

Stephen LaBerge

to Alternity

Politics, Poetry,

Waking

the

and Inspiration

Dreamer

Glossary

300

Bibliography

305

Addresses

309

Preface The four "isms" of

the apocalypse: chauvinism, sexism, racism and

talism are riding roughshod over the gardens of civilization.

look around

at

the effects of the

modern world,

stumps of ancient forests smoulder (and

it's

not a pretty sight. Blackened

mid-day sun, young children

stare

from

stunned with hunger and lack of love; torture and cruelty

at) television sets,

are the trademark of

in the

fundamen-

When we take a long

governments throughout the world; and wars are raging

all

over the face of our planet.

For in the

all

the

wings,

shimmering beauty of life,

when we

for

all

take a long look around,

the exquisite potential waiting

we

find ourselves

none too sure

about the future of our species, or for that matter, of any other. Perhaps

be bidding our farewells to

DNA,

thanking

it

for having us

we should

and apologizing for

we should act "as if there is going to be a down an ever-darkening path to humorless-

being such sloppy guests. Or perhaps future,

because the alternative leads

ness, apathy,

So,

what

and despair.

we

believe there

that's

is

it

obvious

if

is

hope

wrong with our

—our senses

tell

looks like the rim of a

us so.

toilet

for our future,

At

present.

we must

then get a grip on

thought this seems pretty

first

You can see that the lower skyline of Los Angeles

bowl, you can hear the stories of battered women,

you can touch the swollen stomach of a starving Somalian child, you can smell the choking fumes of Saddam Hussein's mustard gas and you can taste the fruits of our labors with that nasty after-tang of malathion.

To

attempt to exorcise these problems externally, without exorcising the

mytho-scientific perspective which creates them, ensures that

temporary

relief.

we

will gain only

A friend of mine defined insanity as repeating the same actions

over and over again while remaining convinced things will turn out differently.

The human species

is

in

danger of being committed. What

fundamental change of heart and mind, to

shift the

we need

is

a

gears of our consciousness,

and escape the temporal gridlock which has formed in the collective psyche.

Why take responsibility for our actions when we know that God is separate us, directing our destiny? Why treat the ecosystem with respect, when we know that the universe is a machine? Why help one another when we know that competition is the key to success? Why express our sexuality when we know that

from

is something to be ashamed of? For all their genius, Descartes, Newton, Darwin and Freud had only part of the equation. We need to move on.

it

Yet to

it

is

not in order to overthrow the existing governing belief systems, but

reform them, that the people in

this

book speak

Their concern

out.

promotion of evolution rather than revolution. They have lished foundations of

knowledge but have each added

connected by the spiral staircase of

integrity,

built

upon

is

the

the estab-

a story of their

own,

wisdom and compassion. The men

and

women

in this

carved inks.

and

in

\\

book

arc oof afraid of change.

Inch have been handed

choosing

to

down

They have questioned the stonefrom the summits of orthodoxy

to us

climb the mountain for themselves they have come up an

alternative set of revelations

which begin, not with,"Thou Shalt," but with

"Why

Not?"

We ne there

is

parents.

the protaganists

DO one

We

left

can't

to

and the authors of our

go out and hang the

first

alternative responses to those of despair

global crises.

The purpose of

particular point of view, but to

of your

own mind, and

own drama.

It

is

up

to us;

blame. Neither the "system," nor our leaders, nor our

amoeba. Upon these pages are some

and disillusionment

this collection is not to

in the face

of our

convince you of any

encourage a deeper exploration into the universe

the discovery of your

discard what doesn't and above

all

—enjoy

own

innate truths.

Use what works,

the show!

Rebecca McClen Novick

Introduction was coined by Thomas Kuhn in his book The Structure of Scientific Revolutions in 1961. It was an attempt to describe the changes that occur in the Belief Systems (BS for short) of scientists, concerning how they The term "paradigm

and

interpret their data, that

shift"

how

scientific

one sees through which color

the world.

Today

models evolve. Paradigms are the glasses

how and what we see. When they shift, so does new paradigm shifts occuring.

almost a cliche to speak about

it's

Paradigms are shifting kaleidoscopically these days. This makes sense the fact that

—according

a universe that

and

is

composed of undulating

is

infinitely varied

and mystery.

ity

Our

energy into fixed

from quantum physicists

we

exist as

so

with ambiguwhere nothing

mostly empty space and waves of possible

beliefs are the brain's attempt to freeze the

states,

of

inhabit

is filled

a shifting cascade of relativistic perspectives,

and

in light

—we

vibrations, oscillating in continuously

rhythms and frequencies. The universe

It is

really quite solid,

probabilities.

to the latest reports

flow of matter and

we can grasp onto something familiar and tangible

shifting sea too grand for us to ever fully

Paradigms originate from, and

in a

comprehend.

exist only within, the

framework of

the

human mind, but they

lead to technological progress and social transformation in

the material world. In

your hands

is

a collection of in-depth interviews with

some

whom these new world views, and ultimately new world and social structures, are emerging. Within these pages we meet with some of the most creative and controversial thinkers on the intellectual frontiers

of the extraordinary minds from

of

art

and science

—

the mavericks, those

who have

stepped outside the bound-

aries of

consensus thought, sometimes risking their careers, always risking

ridicule.

These are experts from various

fields

who have seen beyond the normal

who are concerned with the problems facing modern day who have traveled beyond the edges of the established horizons to

and traditional view, society,

and

find their answers. In questioning old belief systems these remarkable individuals

have gained revolutionary insights into the nature of consciousness, and with

intelligence, clarity,

and wit they offer some enlightening proposals for the

potential future of humanity.

Inside these maverick

minds we

the realms of morphic fields,

tiptoe along the fringes of reason, exploring

chaos theory,

virtual reality,

possibilities of time travel, extraterrestrials,

quantum philosophy,

the

nanotechnology, and out-of-body

We discussed such general themes with them as technology, ecology, God, psychedelics, death, and the future evolution of consciousness. We learned a

experiences.

from doing these interviews, but most importantly we got a very strong sense of optimism and hope from these people. In a world infested with pessimism, fear, lot

and doubt, these individuals offer fresh perspectives and together,

common

world views

underlying holistic

that are at

themes emerge

once analytical and 3

possibilities.

intuitive,

in these

Taken

interviews of

new

compassionate and wise,

—

practical and imaginative

perspectives,

in theii

"Inspiration," Alien Ginsberg told us, inspiration fbi tins

writing bad

Md

Rebecca

thai

book len

to breath in."

out

we

thought

No\

ick

and

some

ol the

grandiose

in a

most

what the) have

had on the nature of

I

reality

irately,

I

We

demonstrated

any single person.

we were

tie

them

all

interview these people from It

was very

that

interesting that

we

had covered the spectrum of

of our

—

existence, the most essential part

little

own perspectives, and could

how male and female

our very sense of self

we had

astonished to discover that

of questions with suprisingly very

lists

to us the biases

central source of fascination

is

It

somehow

would collaborate on questions, we would usually brainstorm

the inherent difference in

Our

to

then share ideas and mutually arrange the sequence of the questions

unique

relatively

wanted

man/woman team we could

important points ourselves, and

5.

and illuminated luminaries around, and see

Almost evervtime we both thought

later.

Why

burning.

fire

more comprehensive view.

holistic perspective than

w hen Rebecca and

and exploration of

of audacious innocent inspiration, seek

on the subject.

\\ e figured that as a

more

moment

brilliant brains

to saj

her. into a larger, grander,

a

original

of our desire to meet with people whose Wild late-night philosophical discussions

us.

OOOSCiousness provided the alchemical ignition that got the not,

The

parti) grei* out

impact on

hail a great

"means

was

overlap. This

be suggestive of

brains differ in their thinking.

the timeless mystery of conscious-

most mysterious and mundane aspect of of us and yet we don't know what it is, where the

—

comes from, or where it's going. It is all around us in many forms, and yet when we try to define it that is, to draw a boundary around it and distinguish it from the rest of the universe it suddenly becomes extremely elusive. Alan Watts told it

—

—

us that the paradox that is

like

we experience when

trying to understand consciousness

an eyeball trying to see itself (without a mirror), or teeth trying to bite

themselves.

Hot

We

are our

own

blind spots.

does consciousness arise? Can consciousness leave the body?

Is

it

human brains, or does exist elsewhere in other forms? What is consciousness made of? What changes it? How and why? What happens to consciousness alter physical death"/ What do quantum physics, chaos theory, limited to

it

iobiology, neurophysiology, and morphic field resonance suggest to us about the nature .

into? Ol the

HOT

and potentials of consciousness'.' Where are we when we're lucid

Do

intelligent extraterrestrials exist?

questions

take on

in this

>Iie

What

is

consciousness evolving

does the world Change when consciousness Changes? These are some

we

with the help of

some extremely

gifted thinkers

—

try to

ambitious book.

thing fol sure about consciousness

time and space

it

is

that

like

matter and energy,

changes. Mows, and there aie varying decrees of

people, neiliobiologistfl

tor

the

most

part, think

consciousness

is

it.

Some

an emergent

property ol the brain, which evolved overs 4.5-billion-year evolutionary struggle 4

and reproduce. Others, dubbed mystical (or kooks) by the former,

to survive

think consciousness creates the brain. Chicken or egg?

mind? Some think consciousness

is

Mind

body? Or body

in

in

the brain. Behavioral psychologists, such as

B.F. Skinner, have claimed that consciousness does not even exist, while others,

Zen Buddhists

for example, say that consciouness

is all

that exists.

Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of fascinating models for consciousness have sprung out of the human mind. Numerous esoteric mystical disciplines claim to have used techniques to alter and heighten consciousness since the

beginning of written history. Lao-tzu reminded us that

comes from and first maps of human

all

it

flows back into the great Tao. Buddha contributed one of the

psychology, and some of the most enduring methods for changing brain

was

Aristotle believed that consciousness

states.

not constrained by physical processes.

Descartes divided the mind from the divine. Darwin gave us the evolutionary

mechanism of natural

perspective, and the

Wundt

tried to

make

selection.

the study of consciouness a science through disci-

plined introspective techniques. Pavlov taught us about the roles of excitation,

and associative learning

inhibition,

nervous system. Konrad Lorenz

in the

revealed the biological secrets of neural imprinting. Freud pointed out that part of

us

is

the

conscious, most of us

human

species share a

is

unconscious. Jung went further claiming that

common meta-cultural collective unconscious,

all

of

full

of

Does this imply the potential development and evolution one

genetic dreams, myths, and legendary archetypes. for a collective consciousness? Is the process of in

which

the unconscious

is

being

From William James we process, and that there

is

made more conscious?

learned that consciousness

scious states. Aleister Crowley integrated

many

tions of previous centuries with the scientific

Hofmann discovered

system. Albert in

is

not a thing, but a

a vast multitude of mostly uncharted, potential con-

of the esoteric mystical tradi-

method, wedding them into a single

the explosive psychoactive effects of

1943, vastly multiplying the questions of

spirit

LSD

and matter. Neuroscientists,

such as Roger Sperry and Michael Gazzaniga, are discovering that the brain actually

composed of many submodules, each

making each of us a multitude of potential leave off is where this book begins. Charles Tart, a psychologist

which

at

scientists theorize about the

consciousness in history.

is

personalities.

Where

complex

interplay

between the brain and

highly flavored by the prevailing technology of a particular time

For instance,

in the

beginning of the century Freud

the technology of the steam engine

many

built his

need

and the science of hydraulics.

of his concepts. There

up pressure, which needs libido

these people

UC Davis, has pointed out that the ways in

consciousness in accordance with the technology that was popular

clearly in

is

like a miniature brain in itself,

to flow.

to

is

We can see this

reference to the idea of how drives build

be released, and

The symbolic

how

fluid-like energies such as the

release of libidinal tension in a 5

model of day

in his

dream

then,

is

seen as functioning like

\

ah

in a

e is

then SO

it

—

the pressure reaches a certain threshold,

harmless h idi ng

When

so the system

valve Oil the boiler of a steam engine. The safety

like the safety

doesn't explode

valve fol libidinal build-up

B safety

it

just bleeds

the biological drives of the id

become

steam off

too strong,

then dreams bleed off thai excess drive in the form of hallucinatory gratification.

hen w hen the telephone came along, with

1

models

tor

ot

My

consciousness.

filll-page illustration of

how

first

came

it

the switchboard opera-

undergraduate psychology textbook had a

the brain functions like a giant switchboard with

telephone-like connections to

all

parts of the body.

John

Lilly

was

the

first to

apply the computer as a metaphor for understanding the brain in his book

Programming and Mciaprogramming

the

Human

Biocomputer.

When was I

an

undergraduate studying psychology, the computer metaphor was just beginning be entertained on the fringes of academia.

to

hardw he

are.

Our

brains could be seen as the

and our culturally conditioned BS, language, and other

software. Since then cognitive psychology and cognitive science have

tlie

adopted the model of the computer as a metaphor for

and

memes would

this

has

now become

how

the brain functions,

the standard and accepted model.

some light on how the mysteries of the mind interact, but they are also quite limited, and can be dangerously misleading. The brain is not a hydraulic system, a telephone switchboard, or a All of these models help to shed

brain and

computer. But, as models, these metaphors give us a partial grasp of something that

is

otherwise too complex to comprehend.

human

he told us that he thought a

because

a

simulation that modeled and

the space in the brain, filling

it

When we

interviewed John Lilly

brain can never fully understand

mapped

to capacity.

the entire brain It

would take

would

to act as a

VR

Virtual Reality technology.

is

metaphor

all

a larger brain to

understand our brain, and then that brain couldn't fully understand

The newest technology

itself,

take up

itself.

and consciousness

for the brain

allows us to control the sensory input that

channels into our nervous system and to determine what our experience of reality People like Timothy Leary,

is

who

(

omputer-geneiated simulations

brain as reality ot reality are that

we

.

v

:rv

dubbed

Buddha

we

in Virtual

Reality

become acceptable

all

we

to the

ever really experience

simulations created by our brain out of the influx ofsensory signals

receive from our senses.

ing that

technology as a metaphor for the brain.

This leads to the understanding that

live inside a reality I

prefers the term "Electronic Reality," and

VR

Charles Tart have begun to see

this

We

already live

in

fabricated realities.

We each

-generating apparatus called the nervous system. Timothy

understanding "neuro-electric awareness"

the understand-

are creating reality out ot the sensory signals that

we

perceive.

called this understanding "enlightenment."

Hut

to fully

understand

almost always forgd

that

this

our perception

simulation and not 'reality

itself."

we must of what we

eoncept

actually experience call the

it.

physical world

William Blake understood the concept

that

We is

a

we

own

create our

When

I

had

reality

when he

stated,

my first LSD trip at

"That which appears without,

the age of 16,

among other

things

is

within."

realized that

I

what we experience as reality. I realized it by experiencwe think is the external world is actually a neurological

the brain entirely creates

ing

it.

Everything that

human

simulation fabricated out of complex chains of sensory signals by the

On

brain.

that psychedelic experience

it

appeared to

me

as though

of reality

all

was composed of points or monads, and that our perception of reality is like those connect-the-dots games that we play as children. The possible ways of connecting the dots are far more varied than I had thought, and can be done in countless different

ways.

Carl Jung coined a term that helps to explain this called "Constellating

Power," based on tangle of stars.

how we

Once

create constellations in the sky out of the massive

a pattern has organized itself in our mind's "I,"

hard then not to see

it

that

perceptual simulation process

it

becomes

way. Since the Virtual Reality created by the is

one's "reality experience,"

completely identify with the Virtual Reality as the "real"

it

is difficult to

reality. Part

not

of the

motivation for putting this book together stemmed from our understanding that

we

since

are responsible for creating reality

—

individually and jointly

then are the most fabulous and interesting realities that Reality belief told

is

defined as that which

is real,

we

—what

can experience?

and it is created through a blend of

and experience. Several years ago, Virtual Reality pioneer Jaron Lanier that he thought that there were three levels at which one can change or

me

create "reality": (1) at the neurological level of the brain through neurochemistry; (2) at

the sensory level through Virtual Reality simulation; or (3) in the

external world through the atomic reconstructional possibilities of nanotechnology.

But

we

can also change our perception and interpretation of the world through

intention and will. Intentionally changing one's attititude can dramatically shift

one's perspective and social relationships.

Dreams

exploring the possibilities of reality fabrication. lucid

dream researcher

at

also

open up a

Stanford University, about using

lucid dreaming, he said that lucid

frontier for

When we asked Stephen LaBerge,

dreaming was

VR as a metaphor for

like "high-resolution

VR."

A basic premise that we had for this book was that—through cosmological time, biological evolution, personal development, and cultural transformations

consciousness evolves.

From atoms

to galaxies,

amoebas

to neurons, the evolu-

seems an endless adventure. Terence McKenna told us that he thought the ultimate goal of human evolution was a "good party." One thing is for sure. It is on the expanding edge of the horizon, where reality intersects the tion of consciousness

imagination, that

we

will forever find our

new

beginnings.

David Jay Brown Topanga, California

Terence

McKenna

"Drugs are part of the human experience, and we have got create a

more

sophisticated

way

of dealing with them..."

to

—

Mushrooms,

Elves and with Terence K. McKenna

Magic

m v A/( Kcnna is one of the leading authorities on the ontological foundations shamanism and the ethno-pharmacology of spiritual transformation. After of graduating from UC Berkeley with a major in Ecology, Resource Conservation and Shamanism, he traveled through the Asian and New World Tropics and became specialized in the shamanism and ethno-medicine of the Amazon Basin. What he learned in these explorations is documented in The Invisible Landscape, /

(

7(

which he wrote with his brother Dennis.

Born

in

1946, Terence

boy of fourteen.

He is

is

the father of two children, a girl of eleven

and a

the founder of Botanical Dimensions —a tax-exempt, non-

garden based in Hawaii. This project is devoted to and propagating plants of ethno-pharmacological interest and preserving the shamanic lore which accompanies their use. Living in California, Terence divides his time between writing and lecturing and he has developed a software program called Timewave Zero. His hypnotic multi-syllabic drawl is captured on the audio-tape adventure series True Hall urinations soon to be published in book form which tells of his adventures

profit research botanical collet ting

—

in

far-flung lands in various exotic states of consciousness. Terence

author of Food of the Gods, which plants on

human

culture

and

collection of discursive chats Rupert Sheldrake.

also the

a unique study of the impact ofpsychotropic and The Archaic Revival, in which this

is

evolution

interview appears. His latest u

is

"

book Trialogues

at the

Edge of

with mathematician Ralph

the West,

is

a

Abraham and biologist

November 30th, 1988 in the dramatic setting of Big Sur. Overlooking the Pacific Ocean we silt on the top floor of the Big House at the l.salcn Institute, where Terence was giving a kend seminar. He needed little provocation to enchant us with the pyrotechnic This

was our first

rdplay which

is

his

interview.

It

took place on

trademark, spinning together the cognitive destinies of

Gaia, machines, and language

and

offering a highly unorthodox description of

our own evolution

—RMN

w

McKenna

Terence

DJB:

It's a

pleasure to be here with you again, Terence.

asking you to

tell

how you became

us

We'd

shamanism and

interested in

begin by

like to

the explora-

tion of consciousness.

Terence:

I

discovered shamanism through an interest in Tibetan folk religion.

Bon, the pre-Buddhist religion of Tibet

is

a kind of shamanism. In going

particular to the general with that concern,

phenomenon.

It all

started out as

an

I

shamanism as

studied

from the

a general

pre-Buddhist

art historical interest in the

iconography of thankas.

DJB: This was how long ago?

when I was a sophomore in college. The interest in came simply from, I don't know whether I was a precocious kid or what, but I was very early into the New York literary scene, and

Terence: This was

in '67

altered states of consciousness

even though I lived and there

ments

I

in a small

town in Colorado, I subscribed to the Village Voice,

encountered propaganda about LSD, mescaline, and

that the late beatniks

were involved

Perception and Heaven and Hell, and really put

me

over.

I

it

in.

Then

just rolled

from

when

I

these experi-

Doors of That was what

read The

I

there.

respected Huxley as a novelist, and

everything he'd ever written, and

all

was slowly reading

I

got to The Doors of Perception

I

said to

myself, "There's something going on here for sure."

DJB: To what do you

attribute

your increasing popularity, and what role do you

see yourself playing in the social sphere?

Terence: Well, without being cynical, the main thing popularity

mean

I

is

better public relations.

assume

that

anyone

who

As

far as

what

I

attribute to

role

I'll

play,

going

just

social r

ot

-

t

it,

to

loom

larger

drug issue

and larger on the

*i

pressionorjust saying no.

I

anticipate a

new

open-mindedness born of desperation on the part of the Establishment.

the

human

don't know,

I

is

going to have a

is

agenda until we get some resolution b AUby resolution I adon ut mean supand t

my increasing

has anything constructive to say about our

relationship to chemical substances, natural and synthetic, social role to play, because this

I

, anticipate a new open . , f / mindedness born ofdes. * perationonthe part of .

,

,

.

^ e Establishment.

Drugs are part of

experience, and

we have

got to create a more sophisticated

way of

dealing with them than exhortations to abstinence, because that has failed.

u

R\l\:

on have said

1

next phase

in

human

archaic ie\ ival

lui'iKi:

w nh

I

Ho* do you New Age

he

tar

ties

we

that

hack

—

between these two expressions?

essentially humanistic psychology, eighties style,

is

is

a

much

phenomenon

to a

ritual,

like

forms of the

late neolithic.

National Socialism which

on organized

these are themes that have been

entire twentieth century, and the archaic revival

RMN:

more global phenomenon

larger,

It

twentieth century to Freud, to surrealism, to abstract

But the stress on

force.

consciousness

trivializes the significance of the

are recovering the social

in the

expressionism, even tive

differentiate

of thing. The archaic revival

assumes

that

"New Age*

neo-shamanism, channeling, crystal and herbal healing, and

the addition of

this sort

term

thai the

evolution and have referred instead to the emergence of an

is

activity,

is

a nega-

on race/ancestor

worked out throughout an expression of

the

that.

book you wrote with your brother Dennis, The Invisible Landscape, and in recent lectures and workshops, you've spoken of a new model of time and your efforts to model the evolution of novelty based on the ancient oriental system of divination, the I-Ching. Can you briefly explain how you developed this

In the

model, and

how

an individual can utilize this system to modulate their

own

perspective on the nature of time?

Terence: Ah, no.

I

think I 'd rather send you a reprint of a recent paper in Revision

than to try and cover that. brief

resume of

it,

I

holographic, fractal, and historical

practical

It's

not easily explained. If

would say

that the

moves toward

I

were

new view

to give an

of time

is

extremely

that

time

is

a definitive conclusion, rather than the

model of time which is open-ended, trendlessly fluctuating, and in terms endless. What's being proposed is a spiral model of history, that

sees history as a process actually leading toward a conclusion. But the details of it

are fairly

complex.

DJB: According

to

and history appears

mean by

this,

refer to as the

your time-wave model, novelty reaches to

come

to a close in the

year 20

12.

its

Can you

peak expression explain what you

and what the global or evolutionary implications are oi what you "end of time**?

Terence: What

I

mean

DOVelt) waves, because

is this.

The theory describes time with what

are called

waves have wavelengths, one must assign an end

point to

wave, so the end of time is nothing more than the point on the continuum that is assigned as the end point of the novelty wave.

the novelt) historical

Novelty,

is

something which has been slowly maximized through the

life

of the

universe, something which reaches infinite density, or infinite contraction at the point from

which

the

wave

i^

generated. Trying to imagine what time

would be

Terence

like near the

because

we

temporal singularity are far

from

it,

in

facts in play, before rectly envisage the

we

is difficult

to

be more

will be able to cor-

end of time, but what

can say concerning the singularity is

Novelty is something which has been slowly maximized through the life of the universe.

another do-

main of physical law. There need

McKenna

we

is this:

it

the obviation of life in three-dimensional space, everything that

is

familiar

comes to an end, everything that can be described in Euclidian space is superceded by modes of being which require a more complicated description which is currently unavailable.

DJB: From your writings mushrooms are

psilocybin

planet as spores that

I

this

you subscribe

to the notion that

on

this

human beings. In a more holistic perspective, how do

notion fitting into the context of Francis Crick's theory of directed

panspermia, the hypothesis that

been seeded, or perhaps

Terence: As life

that

migrated through outer space and are attempting to establish

a symbiotic relationship with

you see

have gleaned

a species of high intelligence, that they arrived

I

all life

fertilized,

on this planet and

it's

directed evolution has

by spores designed by a higher intelligence?

understand the Crick theory of panspermia,

spread through the universe.

What I was

it's

suggesting, and

I

a theory of

don't believe

how it

as

—

you imply, but I entertain it as a possibility, that intelligence not life but intelligence may have come here in this spore bearing life form. This is a more radical version of the panspermia theory of Crick and Ponampurama. In fact I think that theory will probally be vindicated. I think in a hundred years if people do biology they will think it quite silly that people once thought that spores could not be blown from one star system to another by cosmic radiation pressure. As far as the role of the psilocybin mushroom, or its relationship to us and to intelligence, this is something that we need to consider. It really isn't important that / claim that it's an extraterrestrial, what we need is a body of people claiming this, or a body of people denying it, because what we're talking about is the experience of the mushroom. Few people are in a position to judge its extraterrestrial potential because few people in the orthodox sciences have ever strongly as

—

experienced the

full

spectrum of psychedelic effects

that is unleashed.

One

cannot find out whether or not there's an extraterrestrial intelligence inside the

mushroom

unless one

is

willing to take the

mushroom.

DJB: You have a unique theory about the role that psilocybin mushrooms play the process of human evolution. Can you tell us about this? Terence: Whether the mushrooms came from outer space or

13

in

not, the presence of

psychedelic substances ...the

presence oj psiio-

in the diet

of early

human beings created a number of changes

tybin in the diet of early humans created a num-

son

ber OfChanges in OUT eVO-

visual acuity improves.

lutionary situation.

see slightly better, and this

our evolutionary situation.

in

(a kes

When

a per-

small amounts of psilocybin their

They can means

mals allowing psilocybin

actually that ani-

into their food chain

would have increased hunting success, which means increased food supply, which means increased reproductive success, which is the name of the game in evolution.

It

is

the

organism

that

manages

to

propagate

numerically that

itself

is

successful. The presence of psilocybin in the diet of early pack-hunting primates

caused the individuals that were ingesting the psilocybin to have increased visual acuit)

.

At slightly higher doses of psilocybin there

is

sexual arousal and erection

goes under the term arousal of the central nervous system.

and everything

that

Again,

which would increase reproductive success

a factor

DJB: Nn't

it

true that psilocybin inhibits

Terence: No. I've never heard psychedelic dose

might, but

it

that.

reinforced.

orgasm?

Not

at the

at just slightly

doses I'm talking about. At a

above the "you can

Sexual arousal means paying attention,

as a stimulant.

is

indicates a certain energy level in the organism.

And

it

feel it" dose,

it

means jumpiness,

it

then, of course, at

still

higher doses psilocybin triggers this activity in the language-forming capacity of the brain that manifests as

song and vision.

stimulate eyesight, sexual g

the

t(

interest,

as though

It is

it

is

an enzyme which

And the three of these Psilocybin may have synergized

and imagination.

tgether produce language-using primates.

emergence of higher forms of psychic organization out of primitive protohuanimals. It can be seen as a kind of evolutionary enzyme, or evolutionary

man

catalyst.

DJB: During your shamanistic voyages how do you, between

the literal

and the metaphorical I/thou dialogue

certain states ol consciousness'/ In other

or do you, differentiate that

words how do you

appears to occur

differentiate

in

between

you are communicating with otherworldly independently and the possibility that you are communicating with isolated,

the possibility that

existing entities

unconscious neuron clusters

in

your

own

Terence: lt"s\er\ hard tO differentiate right

m

io

i

I

know I'm

it.

brain?

How

talking to you?

yOU are ordinary enough that don'! question two heads. would question whether you were I

|

ill)

what you appear

to be. It's 14

can

make

I

It's just

that

that

same

distinction

provisionally assumed,

you're there. Hut

it

at

you had

would investigate to see if very hard to tell what this I/thou there.

I

Terence

relationship

about, because

is

alone the "thou" part of

showing whether

it

very difficult to define the "I" part of

haven't found a

it. I

was an

it's

McKenna

way

extraterrestrial or the

to tell, to trick

back side of

as

it

it

my own

it,

were

let

into

head.

DJB: But normally the way we can tell is we receive mutual verification from we get information from many senses. You can touch me. You can see me. You can hear me. other people, and

Terence: Well,

mysterious telephone telephone

simply a voice, you know, so

this is

it's

the issue of the

you're awakened in the middle of the night by a

call. If

and you pick up the phone, and someone says "Hello"

call,

it

would not

anybody there?" because they just said hello. there, but you can't see them, maybe they're aren't there, maybe you've been called by a machine. I've been called by machines. You pick up the phone and it says, "Hello this is Sears, and we're calling to tell you that your order 16312 is ready for pick up," and you say, "Oh, thank you." "Don't mention it." No, so this issue of identifying the other with

be your

first

inclination to ask "Is

That establishes

certainty

that

tricky,

is

somebody

even

is

in ordinary intercourse.

RMN: There is a lot of current interest in the ancient art of sound technology. In a recent article you said that in certain states of consciousness you're able to create a kind of visual resonance and manipulate a "topological manifold" using

sound vibrations. Can you tell us more about and potential applications? Terence: Yes, plants.

DMT

allowed that

to

it

is

come

this technique, it's ethnic origins,

has to do with shamanism that

is

—

a near

based on the use of

or pseudo-neurotransmitter, that

to rest in the

one can use the voice

my

musical compositions, but pictorial and

mind, indicates that we're on the cusp of some

kind of evolutionary transition in the Ian-

guage-forming area, so

go from guage

-a

that

a language that

is

we

heard to a Ian•

The language

of sound, but

it

will

will

^

are going to

u u u'a- •* that is seen, through a shift in interior

processing.

ingested and

synapses of the brain, allows one to see sound, so

to produce, not

visual compositions. This, to

when

DMT in

still

be

made

be processed as the

r

.

.

tQ +*

?.

a language that is r » heard to a language that

Jfrom

IS

seen...

carrier of the visual impression. This is actu-

Amazon. The songs they sing sound as they do order to look a certain way. They are not musical compositions as we're used thinking of them. They are pictorial art that is caused by audio signals.

ally in

to

being done by shamans

DJB: Terence,

in the

you're recognized by

many 15

as one of the great explorers of the

Amazonian jungles and soared

twentieth oentury. You've trekked through the

through the uncharted regions Of the brain, bul perhaps your ultimate voyages

when humanity

the future,

possibilities fbl travel in these

these

new technologies W

Terence: Some question. around the corner. anticipation oi

I

the

going

world

certainly hope so.

we

think

I

should

The time

more

travel question is

developments

We may

very

that are

be closing

in

much

on the

like

is

right

learn Russian in

incapable of

is

interesting. Possi-

arious points in time.

is

what we would imagine

ability to transmit information

domain of communication

fon* ard into the future, and to create an informational \

species'/

experiencing a compression of technological novelty that

is

time travel to be.

beta een

all

because apparently the U.S. government

it.

to lead to

human

suppose most people believe space travel

I

sustaining a space program. bl\

two areas do you foresee, and how do you think

affect the future evolution of the

ill

lie in

What

has mastered space technology and time travel.

How this will be done

is

difficult to imagine, but

things like fractal mathematics, superconductivity, and nanotechnology offer

new and novel approaches assume time

to realization

travel is impossible

of these old dreams.

simply because

it

in

time, as long as

DJB: Why Terence:

I

is

various ways. Apparently you can

you don't move

it

move

information through

through time faster than

light.

that?

haven't the faintest idea.

DJB: What do you Terence: Oh,

shouldn't

moving information

plenty of latitude in the laws of quantum physics to allow for

through time

We

hasn't been done. There's

a

What am

think the ultimate goal of

good

Einstein?

I

human

evolution

is?

party.

—

DJB: Have you ever had any experiences with lucid dreaming the process by which one can become aware and conscious within a dream that one is dreaming and it so, how do they compare with your other shamame experiences'.'

—

Terence:

I

really

haven '1 had experiences with

things that I'm \er\

because what

a

interested

wonderful thing

in.

I'm

that

lucid dreaming. It's

sort o\ skeptical ot

would

it.

I

one of those

hope

it's true,

be.

DJB: You've never had one7 Terence:

demand,

I've

the

had lucid dreams, but

dream

state

is

I

have DO technique

possihk anticipating 16

fbl

repeating them on

this cultural frontier that

we're

Terence

McKenna

moving toward. We're moving toward something very much like eternal dreaming, going into the imagination, and staying there, and that would be like a lucid dream that knew no end, but what a tight simple solution. One of the things that interests me about dreams is this: I have dreams in which I smoke DMT, and it works. To me that's extremely interesting because it seems to imply that one does not have to smoke DMT to have the experience. You only have to convince your brain that you have done this, and

it

then delivers this staggering altered

state.

DJB: Wow! Terence: it

How many people who have had DMT dream occasionally of smoking

and have

it

Do

happen?

people

of an experience in a dream?

who

DMT ever have that kind

have never had

you have to have done it in life to have established the knowledge of its existence, and the image of how it's possible, then this thing can happen to you without any chemical intervention. It is more powerful than any yoga, so taking control of the dream state would certainly be I

bet not.

I

bet

an advantageous thing and carry us a great distance toward the kind of cultural transformation that we're talking about.

How exactly

to

do

it,

I'm not sure. The

psychedelics, the near death experience, the lucid dreaming, the meditational reveries... all

cultural

of these things are pieces of a puzzle about

dimension

we can

that

all

live in a little

how

new

to create a

more sanely than we're

living in

these dimensions.

DJB: Do you have any thoughts on what happens

to

human consciousness

after

biological death?

Terence: I've thought about

The logos doesn't want biological death.

What

I

it.

When

to help here,

think about

I

imagine happens

at

the

is

I'm on

me on

my

own.

the subject of

the act of reliving an entire

life,

end of the dying process, consciousness divides into the consciousness

of ones parents and ones children, and then

and then divides again.

who come further

feel like

for the self time begins to flow

is that

backwards; even before death, the act of dying

and

it I

has nothing to say to

after you,

away from

It's

it

moving forward

moves through

these modalities,

into the future through the people

and backwards into the past through your ancestors. The

the

moment

of death

it is,

period of time, the Tibetans say 42 days, one

the faster is

it

moves, so

that after a

reconnected to everything that

ever lived, and the previous ego-pointed existence

is

defocused, and one

is

you

morphogenetic field, or the One of Plotinus, you choose your term. A person is a focused illusion of being, and death occurs when the illusion of being can be sustained no longer. Then everything flows out and

know, returned

to the ocean, the

away from

disequilibrium state that

it

is

this

life is. It is a state

maintained for decades, but finally, like 17

all

of disequilibrium, and

disequilibrium states,

it

must

\

Second

ield to the

1

aw

oi

rhermodynamics, and

at that

point

it

runs down,

specific character disappears into the general character of the world around

it.

its It

has returned then to the void/plenum.

DJB:

W hat

you don't have children?

if

Terence: Well, then you Bow backward into the parents, and their parents, and eventually all protozoa. No,

it's

a hard thing to face, but

past, into life,

your parents, and

from the long-term point of view of

nature, you have no relevance for the future whatsoever, unless It's

you procreate.

when

vcr\ interesting that in the celebration of the Eleusynian mysteries,

they took the sacrament, what the

uncanny

the

way

history

is

god said was, "Procreate, procreate."

determined by

their

and back into the primal

It

is

who sleeps with whom, who gets born,

drawn forward, what tendencies are accelerated. Most people experience what they call magic only in the dimension of mate-seeking, and this is where even the dullest people have astonishing coincidences, and unbelievable things go on it's almost as though hidden strings were being pulled. There's an esoteric tradition that the genes, the matings, are where it's all being run from. It is how I think a super extraterrestrial would intervene. It wouldn't intervene at all. it would make us who it wanted us to be by controlling synchronicity and coincidence around mate choosing. what

lines are

—

RMN: field

—

Rupert Sheldrake has recently refined the theory of the morphogenetie a non-material organizing collective

cal systems.

This

which brims and mass is reached

field spills

—

memory

field

which

over into a

much

larger region of influence

and other metaphysical

from the

spirit

do

I

right. It's

something

theory like that

is

clearly

like that. If

.

RMN: Do Terence:

out Oi the class of possible things,

you think

it

could be related

to get

good tiling, or do they exist, yes think becoming necessary, and that the next

to the

I

some

if

you

will, is a theory

things actually happen.

phenomena of Spirits?

Spirits arc the presence of the past, specifically expressed.

When you go

Angkor Wat. or Tikal. the presence is there. You have to be pretty dull how was. where the market stalls were, the people and their animals.

to ruins like

to DOl see

this

phenomena

what you're trying

great step to be taken in the intellectual conquest of nature,

about how

for the

and can the method of evoking beings

entities,

think morphogenetie fields are a

some kind of

critical

world be simply a case of cracking the morphic code?

Terence: That sounds at is

when

morphic resonance. Do you think

a point referred to as

morphic resonance could be regarded as a possible explanation Oi Spirits

affects all biologi-

can be envisioned as a hyper-spatial information reservoir

it

is

and the trade goods.

It's

quite weird.

Terence

McKenna

We're only conventionally bound

in the

present by our linguistic assumptions, but the

mind spreads out

DJB:

into time,

if

we

and behaves

can

still

in very

our linguistic machinery,

unconventional ways.

How do you view the increasing waves of designer psychedelics and brain

enhancement machines

in the

context of Rupert Sheldrake's theory of morpho-

genetic fields?

Terence: Well, I'm hopeful, but somewhat suspicious.

come from tures. Then

the natural world, and be use-tested

I

think drugs should

by shamanically oriented cul-

they have a very deep morphogenetic field, because they've been

used thousands and thousands of years in magical contexts. the laboratory

A drug produced in

and suddenly distributed worldwide simply amplifies the global

And then there's the very practical consider-

noise present in the historical crisis.

one cannot predict the longterm effects of a drug produced in a laboratory. Something like peyote, or morning glories, or mushrooms have been

ation that

We

used for vast stretches of time without detrimental social consequences.

know all,

I

that.

As far as the

technological question

wish them luck. I'm willing to

I'm skeptical.

I

think

it's

test

somehow

is

concerned, brain machines and

anything that somebody will send me, but

like the

speech-operated typewriter.

It

will

recede ahead of us. The problems will be found to have been far more complex than

first

supposed.

DJB: Don't you

think

it's

and the brain

true that the designer psychedelics

machines don't have much of a morphic field yet, so in a sense one is carving a new morphic field with their use, so it's up for grabs, and there would conse-

more possibilities for new things to happen, unlike the psychoactive substances which you speak of that have ancient morphic fields, and are much more entrenched in predictability and pattern, and therefore not as free for new

quently be

types of expression?

Terence: Possibly, although

new designer ketamine.

My

I

don't

drug. For instance,

know how you

I'll

speak to

impression of ketamine was

grab the morphic

my own

it's like

a brand

new

elevators run smoothly, the fluorescent lights recede endlessly in the hallways. It's just that there's

ery, there's

no hurrying

nobody

secretaries, there's

there.

of a

skyscraper,

the walls, all the floors are carpeted in white, all the drinking fountains

down

field

experience, which

all

is

all

work, the directions

There's no office machin-

no telephones,

it's just this

immense,

empty structure waiting. Well, I can't move into a sixty-story office building, I have only enough stuff to fill a few small rooms, so it gives me a slightly spooked-out feeling to enter into these empty morphic fields. If you take mushrooms, you know, you're climbing on board a starship manned by every shaman 79

who

CVCI did

some

il

in trout ol

stunts OVCI the

yOU, and this

milkma. and

quite a crew, and they've really pulled

is

there, the tapes to be played, but the

it's all

designei things should be verj cautiouslj dealt with.

DJB:

I:

interesting that

's

Do \ou

John

had very different experiences with ketamine.

Lilly

think that there's anv relationship

between the self-transforming ma-

chine elves that you've encountered on your shamanic voyages and the solid

Mate entities that John Lill) has contacted

1

erence:

contacted seem to

is

I

embodiment of merriment and humor.

arc the

recentk which

I

interdimensional travels.'

much congruence. The solid state entities that he make him quite upset. The elfmachine entities that encounter

don't think there

I

in his

will

tell

collective unconscious

is

you.

One of the

expressed

have had a thought about

I

this

science fiction fantasies that haunts the

phrase "a world run by machines";

in the

in

was first articulated in the notion, "perhaps the future will be a terrible place where the world is run by machines." Well now, let's think about machines tor a moment. They are extremely impartial, very predictable, not the 1950s this

subject to moral suasion, value neutral, and very long lived in their functioning.

Now

let's

think about

what machines are made

of, in the light

morphogenetic ,

.

.

.

,

.

.

made of

,

woman tube strange

,,

they are

j?

.

a way for earth to alchemically transform itself into a biology

if

is

Now

self-reflecting thing.

And once

u \u made ofTwhat the ,

wouldn

,

t

it

DJB:

It's t

interesting the

be strange

in fact

soeial aspirations,

wa\ you to

creating

that

S

inn that the

\

isions

mathematical ^kW. With

a

world run

and so

forth, in

such

a

way

is

male ego's

the (

fear o\

iaia.

and hallucinations can be this in

be replicated

in a

mind, do you think super computer'?

OOmpOnentSOl hallucinations can be broken down

and duplicated b\ mathematical code

that's

is

anticipate each question. The recent develop-

imply

human imagination can

Iit\

a

it-

starving each other. Stop destroying land, and

tlie

I)

is

nto a self-reflecting thing. In which

the abilities ol

\

biology

i

a precise

ereace;

J a -J made of.

se if

broken down into

I

[f

is

these machines are in place, they can be expected to

images seems

traetal

•

for earth t0 a lchemically transform

relinquishing control of the planet to the maternal matrix of

ment

»u

earth

way

Actually the tear of being ruled by machines

tort}).

are

case then, what we're headed for inevitably,

manage our economies, languages, that we stop killing each other, stop so

Machines

metal, glass, gold, silicon, plastic;

what we are b\ machines.

of Sheldrakes

field theory.

isn't

taking anything

away from them.

can be taken apart and reduhlicated with this same mathematical code.

what makes the

traetal idea so

powerful. 20

One can

type

in

half a page of

Terence

MeKenna

code, and on the screen get river systems, mountain ranges, deserts, ferns, coral reefs, all

imply

being generated out of half a page of computer coding. This seems to

that

we

are finally discovering really powerful mathmatical rules that

stand behind visual appearances.

And

yes,

I

think supercomputers, computer

graphics and simulated enviroments, this

is

world's being run by machines, we'll be

the movies.

RMN:

It

ability

of

seems that human language

human consciousness

levels of reality.

become

a

more

How

is

at

very promising

evolving

to navigate

Oh

stuff.

When

the

boy.

much slower rate than is the

at a

more complex and more profound

do you see language developing and evolving so as

to

sensitive transceiving device for sharing conscious experience?

Terence: Actually, consciousness can't evolve any

faster than language.

The

which language evolves determines how fast consciousness evolves, otherwise you're just lost in what Wittgenstein called the unspeakable. You can rate at

feel

it,

but you can't speak of

it,

so

it's

an entirely private

reality.

Have you

how we have very few words for emotions? I love you, I hate you, and basically we run a dial between those. I love you a lot, I hate you a lot.

noticed

then

RMN: How

do you feel? Fine.

Terence: Yes,

how do you

feel, fine,

and yet

we

have thousands and thousands

we need

of words about rugs, and widgets, and this and that, so richer language of emotion.

—

There are times

—

and

this

would be

to create a

much

a great study for

somebody to do there have been periods in English when there were emotions which don't exist anymore, because the words have been lost. This is getting very close to this business of how reality is made by language. Can we recover a lost emotion, by creating a word for it? There are colors which don't exist any more because the words have been lost. I'm thinking of the word "jacinth." This is a certain kind of orange. Once you know the word "jacinth," you always can recognize it, but if you don't have it, all you can say is it's a little darker orange than something else. We've never tried to consciously evolve our language, we've just . ^ Can we recover a lost emolet

it

evolve, but

now we have

this level of

awareness, and this level of cultural need

where we

really

must plan where the new

tlon >.

J or

& Creating a word

**•

words should be generated. There are areas where words should be gotten rid of that empower political wrong thinking. The propagandists for the fascists already understand this, they understand that if you make something unsayable, you've made it unthinkable. So it doesn't plague you anymore. So planned evolution of language is the way to speed it toward expressing the frontier of consciousness. 21

DJB: \'\ e thought a! times thai W hal you view as a symbiosis forming between humans and psychoactive plants may in fact be the plants taking over control of 0U1 li\ es and commanding us to do their bidding. Have you any thoughts on this? rereoce: Well, symbiosis

is

not parasitism, symbiosis

is

a situation of

we have to presume that the plants are getting What we're getting is information from another

benefit to both parlies, so

OUt oi this as

we

arc.

Their point of view,

level. .

.

.a

what they're giving

plant has the Tao. It

and

as

other words,

in

>

carry water.

i

turn respond the physical world.

in

is

What we're giving

higher dimensional point of view.

them

much

spiritual

tncm is care and feeding, and propagation, and sury va ^ so tnev gi ve us tne h- elevated

chop wood

doeSfl V even

us.

mutual

And

this

seems

We

in

by making the way easier for

a reasonable trade-off.

Obviously

move around much. You even chop wood and carry water.

they have difficulty in the physical world, plants don't talk

about Tao, a plant has the Tao.

RMN:

It

doesn't

Future predictions are often based upon the study of previous patterns and

trends which are then extended like the contours of a

of things to come.

The

future can also be seen as an

between the past and the present

interaction

map to extrapolate the shape

—

ongoing dynamic creative

the current interpellation of past

c\cnts actively serves to formulate these future patterns and trends.

been able

from

its

to reconcile these

that

humanity

is

Have you

able to learn

experiences without being bound by the habits of history?

Terence: The two are history

two perspectives so

if

you want

antithetical.

to learn

You must

not be bound by the habits o\

was Ludwig von Bertallanfy, who made the famous statement that situations where they arc given the opportu-

from your experience.

It

the inventor of general systems theory,

'"people are not machines, but in

all

nity, the) will act like

machines," so you have to keep disturbing them, 'cause

dow

n into a routine. So, historical patterns are largely cyclical,

the) alu a\ s settle

but not entirely; there

is

ultimately a highest level of the pattern which does not

which

responsible for the advance into true novelty.

repeat,

and

that's the part

RMN:

Hie

part that doesn't repeat.

two groups. Some

is

Hmm.

The positive futurists tend

becoming progressively

visual i/e the future as

to fall into

brighter every

da) and that global illumination will occur as a result of this progression; others

envision

yOU see as being Terence:

human conWhich scenario do

period oi actual devolution, a dark age. through which

a

USnesS must pass before more ad\ anccd stages are reached.

I

the

most

guess I'm

likely to

a BOfl

emerge, and

Dark Agcr.

I

why do you

hold this view?

think there will be a mild dark age,

I

Terence

don't think think

it

it

will be anything like the dark ages

more

will last

like five years,

think

it

will give

yearning

for,

way

lasted a thousand years,

and will be a time of economic

among minor

I

retraction,

communities by certain segments

religious fundamentalism, retreat into closed

of the society, feudal warfare

which

McKenna

states,

and

this sort

of thing. But

in the late Nineties to the actual global future that

we're

and then there will be basically a fifteen-year period where

I

all

these

all

drawn together with progressively greater and greater sophistication, the way that modern science and philosophy have grown with greater

things are

much

in

and greater sophistication

sometime around

the

in a single direction since the Renaissance,

end of 2012

all

of this will be boiled

down

and

that

into a kind of

alchemical distillation of the historical experience that will be a doorway into the life

of the imagination.

RMN:

Rupert Sheldrake's morphic resonance, Ralph Abraham's chaos theory,

and your time wave model

all

appear to contain complimentary patterns which

operate on similar underlying principles until a certain level is

frame of reference, into an all

is

that

like

it

is

less well

true that the three of us

known, but has

then transduced into a larger

mental approaches.

and

I

would add Frank Barr

a piece of the puzzle as well

is,

at this

equations, there's no predictive machinery,

all

point a hypothesis. There are no

it's

a

way of speaking

in a general

way.

And

about experi-

then what Ralph's are doing

back

branch of ordinary mathematics called dynamic modeling.

And

providing a bridge from the kind of things Rupert and

into the frontier

in there,

—we're

My time wave thing is like an extremely formal and specific

example of what he's talking about is

is

water in a tiered fountain. Have you worked these theories

complimentary. Rupert's theory

doing

energy systems store information

encompasing metatheory of how the universe functions and operates?

Terence: Well,

who

—

reached and the information

I

Frank is an expert in the repetition of fractal process. He can show you the same thing happening on many, many levels, in many, many different expressions. So have named us Compressionists, or Psychedelic Compressionists. A I Compressionism holds that the world is growing more and more complex, compressed, knitted together, and therefore holographically complete point,

and

that's basically

where the four of us stand,

I

think, but

at

every

from different

points of view.

DJB: Can you

tell

us about Botanical Dimensions, and any current projects that

you're working on?

Terence: Botanical Dimensions

is

a non-profit foundation that attempts to

rescue plants with a history of shamanic and

and rescue the information about

how 23

human usage

in the

warm

tropics,

they're used, store the information in

"

computers, and move the plants Hawaii, rherc

we

aicfa

in

to a

oineteen-acre

site

on the big island of

a rainforest bell thai reasonably replicates the

are

On them. As

a

newsletter, and support a

which nobod) on, but \er\

Amazon

keeping them toward the day when someone will want non-profit foundation

number

Amazonian people

effort

are

to

solicit

There's

a lot

situation.

do serious

donations, publish a

of collectors in the field to carry

else isieall) doing. little

we

to

on

this

work,

of rainforest conservation going

oonserve the folk-knowledge of native peoples.

going off

to

sawmills and repairingvb outboard motors,

whole bod) of know ledge about plants is going to be lost in the next generation. Were sa\ing it. and saving the plants in a botanical garden in and

this

hi.

24

Riane Eisler

"We see

a world

will

& David Loye

where the most highly valued work

have the consciousness of caring."

25

—

-

Raising the Chalice with Riane Eisler

& David Loye

modern renaissance woman due to her far She is the author ofThe Chalice and the u Blade, which the eminant anthropologist, Ashley Montagu has hailed as the most important book since Darwin's Origin of Species. " Her latest work, The Partnership Way written with her husband David Loye is a handbook for applying the partnership model for which she has become renowned. Riane was born in Vienna, Austria, and at the age of six she found herself a Riane

I

has been described as a

isler

king insights as a cultural historian.

—

refugee of Nazi Europe. She sailed to Cuba, on the last ship before the ill-fated St. Louis was refused sanctuary by the United States and she emigrated to North

America when she was fourteen. Her early experiences with the dark side of human culture led her to pursue studies in sociology and anthropology and she went on to obtain a J.D. from the UCLA School of Law. She has taught at the University of California and the Immaculate Heart ( 'ollege in Los Angeles, and she is a member of the General Evolution Research up. She has pioneered legislation to protect the human rights of women and children and founded such organizations as the Los Angeles Women's Center Legal Program and the Center for Partnership Studies. Riane articles have appeared in many publications and journals. She has s

and addressed corporations such as DuPont spoken at universities such as UCIA and Harvard and

frequently appeared on television

and Disney. She has also

keynoted many conferences worldwide.

an eloquent and dynamic speaker. Her ability to interweave a vast expanse of information allowed for a fascinating and highly revelatory discussion on (he politics of anthropology, (he roots of civilization, the lost aspects of

Riane

religion

is

and

the cease-fire recipe to humanity's

"war of the

"

sexes.

Da\ id Loye is a SOCialpsychologist and systems theorist. He is the author of numerous books on the use of the brain and mind in prediction, political leadership and race relations. His psy< hofustory. The Healing of a Nation, was (tilled "a work oj utu ommon humanity and \ision" by Psychology Today and :\

m

ed the Anisfield-Wolfe

Award

1971. His other works include

for the best

si

holarlv book on race relations

The Leadership

Passion,

The Sphinx and

the

Eisler/Loye

Rainbow and The Knowable Future, which has been recognized as a pioneering work of unusual stature in the field offuture studies. David is a former member of the psychology faculty of Princeton University and for almost ten years he was the Director of Research for the Program on Psychosocial Adaption and the Future at the UCLA School of Medicine. He is also a founding member of the General Evolution Research Group, a multidisciplinary

composed of scholars from various parts of the world. A member of the Board and Book Review Editor of The Journal of General Evolution, David's articles have appeared in numerous publications. He is also a major contributor to the first multi-volume World Encyclopedia of Peace. During recent years, David's main research project has been the scientific study of moral sensitivity and he is completing two books on the subject. This has involved a re-evaluation of the work of many philosophers and psychologists in light of new discoveries in brain research, human prehistory, and the systems think tank

Editorial

dynamics of cultural evolution. Partnership Studies

We met

with

their beautiful

in Pacific

David and

home

in

He

is

currently Co-Director of the Center for

Grove, California.

Riane on the Winter Solstice of 1988 at Carmel, California. David offered us intriguing insights his wife,

into the nature of morality and its relation to sexual distortion and denial. Pooling together his multi-disciplinary perspectives he spoke with passionate

on the subjects of cultural politics and the respective roles which the and right sides of our brains have played in social evolution. clarity

left

—RMN

27

DJB: Riane tell US, what was and the Blade, a hook described

that originally inspired

it

Ashley Montagu

bj

you

m'sOrigin ofSpecies" and what motivated you

R] \\K:

think that

some

w

1

\

1

And

we have

X

tes there

to

my own

life

to

tried to

answer

had

I

in

ask myself

to

The Chalice and

war and

to

I

be helpful and caring towards other people?

And do we have

be war?

my work shows

terms, between

experiences,

and willingness

have

of the things

I

was haunted by questions such as: hunt and persecute each other? Do we have to live in ways that

stunt our ability I

very early age

at a

they certainly weren't just academic questions for me.

Because of 1

book

complete the work?

to

to study is related to their life experi-

from Nazi Europe, and

ei) basic questions, the questions that

The BUnlc.

)o

what people choose

as a refugee

The Chalice

as "the most important

since Darvs

ences.

to write

the

to

that there is

is

war of the

have the "war of the sexes"? One

an integral relationship,

in

systems

sexes.

RMN: Just so that everyone is familiar with your cultural transformation theory, can you define the differences between what you have termed a partnership and dominator, or gylanic and androcratic society?

RIANE:

I

think the best

way

to

answer

this question is to

developed cultural transformation theory. About ten years ago intensive study, drawing from

many

re-examine our

fields, to

how

begin with

I

embarked on an

I

past,

our present,

and the possibilities for our future.

Most

studies concerned with our global crises focus

what's happening now, or on what happened database was

much

including our prehistory.

words, both

fifty

•" s

Murom,

you come it,

right

to just take

,

when down to

picture.

know

What

I

other

h()()ks

one half of

that

if

()L j

we just

started to sec

is

mean

that's not

how

it

^

onc

,

q{ a spcdes mU) accoun( Yc( mos( on |usU)ry ()r socioIogy or anlhropo i_

w

look

arc six or seven

if there

V

women,

nc cx about ]

right'? It's a all

in

was always done? Because it's ludicrous, when you come right down to it, to just take

a species into account.

We

whole of humanity;

years from now, people will say, you

.....

•

the

female and male halves.

its

Perhaps

As you know, it And it also included

larger.

on modern times, on

few hundred years. My included the whole of our history, in the last

at

mentions

in the

that's already terrific,

progressive book.

part of a picture,

hat one can see

it

One

we

don't see the whole

uses a holistic or systems

approach: recurring relationships or patterns that were not visible before. These patterns or configurations compose

w

hat

1

then called the dominator or androcratic

and the partnership or gylanic models of society.

Each has

a

clear configuration. But

we

didn't sec that configuration because

EislerlLoye

we weren't looking at a very key component in it, which is the status of women and of so-called feminine values, such as caring, nonviolence, and compassion. In other words,

and with

A

this,

between the female and male halves of humanity,

between stereotypes of "masculinity" and "femininity."

of

lot

relationship

at the

service

lip

we

given to bemoaning that

is

don't have a social

guidance system governed by these so-called "feminine" values that

need for our survival. Only the

you look

If

talk

about

it

is

abstract.

the configurations of these

at

very interesting, which

is

that the

two models, you see something

dominator system requires

that values like

caring and nonviolence and compassion (stereotypically associated with

not be governant.

You

we now

see that at the core of that system

over women, of one half of humanity by the other.

is

And

women)

the domination of men that this

domination

is

ultimately backed up by force or the threat of force.

Beginning with the ranking of one half of humanity over the other, the dominator system

is

by a generally hierarchic or authoritarian

also characterized

social structure and a high degree of institutionalized violence.

Not only rape

form of male terrorism against women), wife battering,

and other struc-

tural

forms of violence designed

man

over man,

what warfare

RMN:

is

tribe

(a

men's domination over women; but impose and/or maintain the domina-

to maintain

also institutionalized violence designed to tion of

incest,

over

tribe,

and nation over nation. That's of course

about.

Can you give us some examples of each model?

RIANE:

If

we

at human society using the templates of the partnership and we begin to see that in all the seeming randomness around us

look

dominator models,

Take for example, three very different societies: the Masai of Africa, Nazi Germany, and Khomeini's Iran a tribal society, a highly technologically developed Western society, and a Middle Eastern theocracy. Underneath all the surface differences, all three are rigidly male dominant

there are actually patterns.

societies.

Africa

—

—

Moreover, they are the

all

and Khomeini's Iran in warfare, but

is

many

rule,

be

it

societies.

well-known. But the institutionalized violence other areas

among the Masai, the brutality other fundamentalist

—wife

Muslim regimes. And

Mullahs will

God, and you had

tell

you

better listen to

And

that they

them

—

is

beating, genital mutilation of

directed against

in the family or in the state.

in Iran the

The Masai were the scourge of The violence of Hitler's Germany

highly warlike.

most warlike of African

it

women not only

in all three there

was

in Iran

not only

women

but

many

was strong-man So

absolute, authoritarian rule.

have the only

direct telephone line to

or else.

This dominator configuration of rigid male dominance, a high degree of institutionalized violence,

and strong-man or authoritarian

29

rule in both the family

....

,

and

.

state is discernible in

•

etics

,

nator model.

and uroups.

same kind

In the

United States, you see

r

,

.

;

,

the

very different soci..

91

00 "hol\ wars Hut

model.

is

to "divinely

holy

why

the highest

1

,

.

And

a lot of

back

emphasis

ordained" commands.

in the religious

—

sense in the dominator

war was holy because war is holy in the dominator chose the title The Chalice and The Blade the blade

—

power.

.And the partnership model?

RIANE: As you move

towards the partnership or gylanic model, you see the

You

—

power equated more with the chalice with the life. You also see a more equal partnership female and male halves of humanity. And you see a more demo-

opposite configuration.

power

tor subservient) place."

obedience

strict

only that war

isn't

That's

becomes

RMN:

00

aikl

word

(a ^(^k-

he Nazis thought

1

model.

it

1

.

women

fundamentalist alliance. "Get into their 'traditional

tU

.

01 configuration in the rightist-

to give, rather

between the

see

than take,

more equitable system and a far lower degree of institutionalized violence. no violence. But there's a very big difference, which is that in the partnership or gylanic model, male identity is not equated with domination and conquest be it of women, other men, other nations, or nature. And violence cratic, It

isn't that there's

—

and abuse are not institutionalized

in parent-child relations

and

in

other

human

relations.

One of

by

the characteristics of the partnership model, as evidenced

prehistoric societies that

we

are

now

rediscovering,

today would call an ecological consciousness

—

is that

they had what

a real reverence for nature,

form of a Great Goddess. So the contemporary

which they venerated

in the

ecology movement

a very important partnership or gylanic trend with

is

growing understanding

that

we

we need

to

its

respect, rather than conquer, Mother

Nature.

There are the

all

over the world today

partnership trends.

come

together. In the

first

more equal partnership between women and men. lor example,

gian government,

upare in rigid

women

you look

at

dominator regimes

into the S.»\ id

I

like

in

human

rights.

in the

is

Norwe-

United States Congress or none

Saudi Arabia.) Moreover, distribution ol wealth

this

one

fnion'8 dominator form of socialism. There

Scandinavians boast the

work

place, there

constitute approximately forty percent oi Parliament.

tins to the less than six percent in the

more equitable and democratic the

It

Scandinavian nations, you find the strongest movement toward an integrated

partnership configuration beginning to a

many

first

peace academies and some

And Scandinavian

goes along with

that did not is

a

devolve

also the fact that

of the

groundbreaking

countries evidence more "feminine"

Eisler/Loye

values in their social governance

—with

a consequent

emphasis not so much on

technologies of destruction (weaponry) but on health, education, and welfare, as

"women's" work such

well as the environment (in other words on

as caring and

cleaning).

When you species

composed of two

anybody

makes

think about

way

that the

we're what's known as a dimorphic species, a

it,

halves.

It

should therefore

that a society structures this

come

as no surprise to

fundamental relationship

tremendous difference.

a

DAVID

L:

scientists

An

with

this

say this openly

—

me

when you confront idea that everything boils down to two models

interesting thing to

a lot of social

is that

— they may not

but what's going on in the back of their heads,

is

that's just too

They tend to discount the idea on that ground. But I've looked at a broad range of phenomena in light of Riane's fundamental insight, and it is that simple. The term, incidently, partnership, is actually one I came up with. Riane was using the terms "androcratic" and "gylanic." It was pointed out by a friend of ours, the futurist writer Bob Jungk, that somewhat more accessible terms were simplistic.

needed for broad appeal.

DJB: Does your dominator-partnership model of human revision in Darwin's theory of natural selection,

and

evolution require a

which assumes

that competitive

selfish reproductive success is the driving force in evolution, or

perhaps, that symbiosis and cooperation could be viewed as

a,

do you

think,

or the, driving

force in evolution?

RIANE: My book

very different in

is

Darwin's, and particularly from isn't like if species

A

its

basic assumptions and findings from

how Darwin

survives, species

B

has been popularly interpreted.

has to die. That's not

how

It

evolution

works.

As

a matter of fact,

most of the world's ecosystem demonstrates a

synergistic and symbiotic relationship

between many species. And

more

far

of course the

great danger with that totally competitive

dog-eat-dog approach, which tor

system approach,

is

that

is

it

dominanow, at our

the

is

It isn't like if species

level of technology, not only threatening

survives, species

our species with extinction, but

die. That's not

ening

all

is

I

B has to

how

evo-

lution works.

species.

Although there

it's threat-

A

have

to clarify here that

also competition in the partnership

system, just as there's also cooperation in the dominator system. But different kind of competition

and cooperation. For example,

31

in the

it's

a

dominator

Eisia

.

model men cooperate is

to

go

war, to better dominate or destroy. So the answer

to

not just cooperation. The issue

cooperation

is

in the

context of a partnership or

That extreme conquest-oriented dominator competition

dominator society.

is

truly not adaptive. I

new

am

not a biologist, so

interpretations by biologists

model

in

Chile, for example,

DAVID

L: Ashley

survi\

of the

al

Riane

Montagu

that

my work

fittest, it's

is

and evolutionary scholars,

The

much

very

is

involved

defining

RIANE:

But

in line

the survival of the

that the

Darwinian

biologist

Humberto

in that

kind of work.

fit

in

many

it

This has the implication

fit.

with

It's

isn't

that

it

the survival of

different ways, including the

way

that

it.

want

I

more

characterizes the difference by saying that

and you can define the is

you

dog-eat-dog battle for only one survivor out of many.

isn't this fit,

tell

best deals with only part of the picture.

at

Maturana

the

can only

I

to

make

a distinction here. Cultural transformation theory

deals with cultural evolution. Also,

we

tend to think of evolution as a linear

upward movement. But not even biological evolution

is like that.

And

certainly

not cultural evolution or technological evolution.

For example, the last

known

if

you look

at

technology,

Minoan Crete (which was one of

prehistoric societies orienting largely to the partnership

had very advanced technology, including indoor plumbing. This got

Romans. Then

got lost again until very recent times. There

it

model)

lost until the

may be

a striving in

our species towards ever higher cultural and technological development, but striving will have to contend with the fact that there are other

that

movements going

on.

What

cultural transformation theory posits, in a nutshell,

thrust of our cultural evolution, the first civilizations,

is

that the original

developed

areas where

in

As we began to develop agriculture, in the mainstream of our cultural evolution, we moved in a partnership direction. But the evidence indicates that there was in our prehistory a period of tremendous system disequilibrium, when there was a fundamental shift in direction. We are now learning from non-linear and chaos theory that from the

the earth

was

hospitable, fertile.

fringes ol a system you can have a peripheral invader that the

whole

structure very quickly

— what

seems

to

be

a

comes

in

and changes

small perturbation,

in

terms of Prigogine's language. These small perturbations become nucleations for a

new system.

The same process seems were peripheral invaders

that

to

have occurred

during our prehistory

I

think of

ol society.

it

And

sometimes

lor five

as a

our cultural evolution. There

came

in

from the barren steppes

— and we saw

a shift

toward the

thousand years we've been on

this course.

of the north and the arid deserts of the south

dominator model

in

dominator detour. But the dominator model

EislerlLoyt

clearly

a choice for us as a species.

is

Now. century,

we

as

we approach

_ .

than our survival as a species

it's

from the

fringes,

IS

a very powerful partnership thrust.

ing a very powerful partnership thrust.

Again

,

than our

now animating

less

now animat-

is

f

less

survival as a species

are in another period of tremen-

dous systems disequilibrium. Nothing

.

f

Nothing

the twenty-first

from the

periphery of the system, that so-called leading-edge thinkers, theorists, and

new

researchers, the leaders in the so-called the

dominator system

is still

However, we wouldn't be talking here lot

We

of changed consciousness.

right

But the question

that shift in time?

of

the road towards

is:

saying to u$, you either reconnect with your an, _. A cient partnership r roots, * ~ , " or *T U J ind ysel1f J an other species.

findings

technological development the dominator

..,.,..« literally

in this period

We're already on

_ % s as if nature were

my

system

there weren't already a

that at a certain level of

we complete

.;

if

One of

can

is

now

have an opportunity now,

great system disequilibrium, for another shift. a partnership society.

consciousness, are emerging. But

very entrenched.

goes into self-destruct. The

(

.

.

.

bomb. Even nature is rebelling against man's conquest of nature . in acid rain, in air and water pollution. The message is clear: it is as if nature were saying to us, you either reconnect with your ancient partnership roots, or I'll find myself another species, perhaps another planet. Because we're doing so much intrinsic damage.

blade

is

the nuclear

m

.

.

RMN:

There's an ideology in current circulation that humanity

toward a mutual expression of agape or

the kind of love associated with desire and sexuality, and that

experiencing a transitional stage.

What

is

are your thoughts

on

we

evolving

from

fraternal, unconditional love,

eros,

are presently

this?

RIANE: Love has been one of the most abused and co-opted terms in dominator you use the word fraternal, as we are used to being so very think that even our lanmale-centered. You know, fraternal is brotherhood.

culture. It's interesting

I

guage has conspired against extent,

came

us,

because

point that what we're talking about

RMN:

I

RIANE: the

was thinking more It's

it's

been a language

out of a dominator or androcratic system.

very

difficult.

new book we've

in

is

really sisterly

that, to a

So

I

very large

always make the

and brotherly

love.

terms of like fraternal twins.

David and

I

deal with that in The Partnership Way,

written together in response to the 33

many

people

who

asked

for tools to help accelerate the shift

\cr\ hard, because

we "re

from

a

dominator

to a partnership

world.

so used to dominator language. But part of our

all

consciousness tor the twenty-first century

to free ourselves

is

It's

new

from the traps of

we don't, for example, continue to say "mankind" or "he." rather than "she or he." To get away from always the male in front, have Started to put "she" in front, rather than "he or she." Until we develop a gender that

dominator language, so

I

inclusive pronoun.

DAVID when

L: Yes, that's a

good example of what's going on

they're captives of a dominator system. In other words,

dichotomy between eros and agape. You have

And

that is bad.

which

is

tied

there

is

more

this

lofty,

more

more

—

all

spiritual alternative,

up with brotherhood and the love of humanity. This that

false

dichotomy

keep us trapped.

have a dichotomy between the two,

for the twenty-first century is not to

but rather a

this false

this idea that sex, eros, lust

saintly,

opens the way for pornography and many other bad things

The hope

people's minds

in

you have

good working relationship. In other words, an enjoyment of the fact a body that has sexual identity, sexual capacities, a body and spirit

that

we have

that

can relate to other people, either sexually, or

in other

forms of love, other

forms of linking.

RMN:

Right. ..well you've already anticipated the next question.

RIANE: the

I'd like to stay

word

fraternal,

I

also going to

brotherly love, fraternal love, defined,

we

which

is

say that's good. But that's love between men. That's the semantic

implication of

it. It

implies that erotic love, the kind of love that

of the relationship between In line

When I was talking about make the point that when we think of the way agape has been conventionally

with that question a minute.

was

women

with what David

and men,

saying,

is

I

characteristic

is

is inferior.

agree that that

is

a false

dichotomy.

If

we go back and look at earlier partnership-oriented societies, we see that they do not make that spurious distinction that we have been taught to make between the spiritual

and the natural, between

In their tor us. in

iconography, nature

myth of man and

spirituality

is

sacred.

Now that's one of the

sacred, that there

being above

keep destroying our planet. This

ol

is

and nature.

terms of ecological consciousness. Because

the earth, the sky, the world,

that

spirit

agape can

in tact

is

woman

part of the

is

it

we

don't understand that

something askew about

and nature, we're

dominator problem.

be a very important component

our bondedness, of our connectedness. So

if

biggest lessons

in

isn't like

just

this

going

to

also believe

I

sexual love,

in the

sense

here's one category, and

there's another category. I

think

becoming

some of

the trends we're seeing today,

lo\ tag friends to

where

women

and

men

are

each other, as well as sexual partners, these are very

U

Eisler/Loye

important partnership trends.

It

used

to

be

that, if

you're a man, you have a wife

who takes care of your household, you have a mistress with whom you have sex, and you have friends who are men. That whole schizophrenic thing is changing, so that there's truly friendship between women and men more as the norm. see I

that as part of the

movement toward

integration, toward wholeness, towards

healing and partnership.

RMN:

many pagan

Religion and sexuality have often been united in

the Celts, Babylonians, the art of Tantra

all

combined

ecstasy. Since then religions like Islam, Christianity,

—with

attempted to separate the two

do you see

RIANE:

religion

religious

cultures

and sexual

and Judaism have

often disastrous pathological effects.

and sexuality co-evolving

all

How

in the future?

some of the things that you see in Tantra are rooted in this more partnership-oriented early spirituality, but they got very distorted. What believe that

I

I'm saying Western.

I

is that,

again,

I

don't see a fundamental

split

between Eastern and

see that most world religions today represent degrees of dominator

Of

overlay, covering and often distorting a partnership core.

Moslem

fundamentalist Christian and ship core of spirituality

was

left

is

sects, it's horrendous.

course, in the

Whatever partner-

practically non-existent, because

it's

so

encrusted, so crudded up by this dominator overlay.

Like the attitude that sex and

That

is

woman

are inherently evil and dangerous.

a complete reversal of the earlier belief system,

sexuality

were

central.

What was

where woman and more partnershipenhance life, to give

celebrated in the earlier

was the power to give life, to sustain life, to pleasure, rather than pain. It was recognized that we all die, and the so-called "chtonic" or underground aspect of the Goddess was therefore also recognized, as these people believed that all of life came from the womb of the Goddess (the oriented religion

Earth), to then at death (like the cycles of vegetation) again return to her

be reborn. For example,

in the Paleolithic,

were symbols of the return

to the

womb to

people worshipped in caves, which

womb, and there were 1 am

sure important rites

relating to this great mystery of birth, sex, death, and, in terms of their belief

system, rebirth. I

the

should add that these people understood that

male

to give life

—

in other

words

role of sex as part of the life force.

man

takes both the female and

that they understood

For example,

embracing, and right next to them, a

is

and appreciated the

Huyuk

in Catal

agrarian or Neolithic site discovered to date) there a

it

(the largest early

a sculpture of a

woman with

a child

—

woman

and

the product of

their union. I

that

mention

men

this,

because there are

still

people

who

believe that the

moment

discovered they also had life-giving powers, they were such brutes that

they immediately enslaved

women, and 35

that this is

how

the shift to

male

— dominant societies happened. (Of course that about human nature, particularly male nature, In relation to

future,

it

is

not coincidental that there

way

mystical religions. Because the

remnants of the

earlier

a

source of

m\ stical

look

are inherently evil.)

today so

is

The

in the

interest in

partly as

is

where sex and

religion,

women

original intent probably

yoga (where female sexuality

illumination), these mystical religions also

— and thus

much

mystical traditions

at

very sad thing happened.

as forgotten, and, as in Tantric

centered

I

more partnership-oriented

were revered. Bui then \\

we

that

your question about religion and sexuality co-evolving

think that

1

dominator assumption

really a

is

is still

seen as the

became very male

distorted.

Now our job in developing a truly new consciousness, a new spirituality for the twenty-first century,

is

to clarify that, to

understand that even the mystical

traditions are out of balance, to restore that balance

partnership core.

And we now have

and get back

to the

hidden

the archeological data to help us do this, and

tremendously exciting.

that's

a mistake to say, "The Eastern is terrific and the Western is bad. "

l

...it is

think that

Eastern

il

is terrific,

is

"The

a mistake to say,

and the Western

is

bad." If

we are S oin S to have a P artnershi P consciousness in the twenty-first century, we have to unravel and reweave just about everything.

DAVID

L:

A

new book I'm working on

consciousness, moral sensitivity.

believe

I

about the separation of religion and sex, at

deals with a crucial aspect of this it

sheds

spirit

the founders of the scientific study of

light

on

this basic

and nature. I'm taking

moral

sensitivity

a

question

new

— Immanuel

look

Kant,

Marx, Engels, Emile Durkheim, Sigmund Freud, Jean Piaget, moving into work of Carol Gilligan, Marija Gimbutas, and

current times, including the key

Riane bearing on moral sensitivity.

Out of

this is

emerging

a

new

theory of moral sensitivity as an organic

process. In other words, moral sensitivity has mainly been seen in terms of socialization, or conditioning

We

are seen as animals

— something imposed upon

who have

to

this

lower organism.

be stuffed with this moral sensitivity which

comes from some higher mysticism. What I'm showing

is

that

moral sensitivity

arises out of the organism, developing through

.moral sensitivity arises out of the organism... .

evolution.

What I'm convinced

will be part

.

of *? consciousness of the twenty-first eratury

is

this

understanding

moral sensitivity, velops out ot nature.

It

is

that morality, that

not an "add-on."

It

de-

also has sexual roots. Freud actually had this insight, but

typically, as a captive of the

dominator system, he and

plete^ screwed up and distorted

the

hoard, killing of the father, and so on.

his insight

whole Oedipus complex

were com-

thing, the primal

Eisler/Loye

RIANE: ity,

I

think that

if

we talk about

the Oedipus complex, we see

sexual-

Freud very accurately described the dominator

Freud

that

• •

very accurately described the dominator

psyche. unfortunately he went around saying

psyche—or rather, the male dominator psyche. Unfortunately he went around saying

. .

it's

human psyche, and people believed him. it's the human psyche. Now we're moving away from that. Maslow and a lot of feminist psychologists emphasize human growth needs, not so much what Maslow called defense needs. And believe me, in a dominator system defense needs are central. It's constructed the

.

so that there

human

is

constant war, even between the female and male halves of the

species. If

relationship with,

you can't even

how

in the

trust the

person you have the most intimate

world are you ever going

to

have a harmonious

relationship with people of a different color, or of a different belief system?

Sexuality has been distorted, beginning with this idea that object. Unfortunately, stress this point

we

enough

in

woman

see that in both Eastern and Western cultures.

terms of twenty-first century spirituality, and

is

an

can't

I

it's

hard

some people who have been very attracted by some of the Eastern disciplines, precisely because some of that old partnership core is, like a thread, still a little bit more visible. But look at Buddhism. Look at Hinduism. Look at how dominatorfor

oriented those systems really are. Not

all

of the sects, of course, but, for example,

whole idea of the Zen master who beats his disciples to "enlighten" them dominator approach. Not that there haven't been survivals of ancient partnership-oriented wisdoms in Eastern traditions. But superimposed on them this it

really is a

are

dominator religious teachings.

Hinduism you have the caste system, and its justification of brutality by it's your karma to be of the lower despised caste and to suffer at the hands of the higher castes. If it's your karma, why change society? It's just a way In

claiming that

of maintaining a dominator system. Like the Judeo-Christian idea that an inscru-

male God has decreed

we

punishment for disobeying his orders and that all that matters is salvation in a far away heaven, rather than what happens here on earth. If you can't change misery, oppression, and exploitation because it's divinely ordained, why bother? That's how these religions have been table

used against

that

us.

Getting back to sexuality, century

is

what we today It's

on to

I

think one of the great tasks for the twenty-first

precisely the reclamation of our uniquely

not only reproduction-oriented, as in

suffer in

is

dominator male model of sex.

It's

It

which

is

bond.

when you

view of sexuality.

sexuality,

also pleasure-oriented, ecstatically oriented,

call the pleasure

very interesting that

this earlier

it

human

talk to

women,

isn't this idea

they're often

still

hanging

of conquest or scoring, as

in the

the intimacy, the bonding, the sense of connect-

edness that they want. The ancients recognized that this intimacy, and 37

this

— Loyt

w

[Measure.

dominator view

and humiliation and possession

women, with

of

teachings that

of course

this

women

(and sex) are

have intimate sexual contact with

onh do

when

so

— and often

was sacred.

with men's domina-

that equates sex

brutali/ation and even killing

advertising. Small

women' And

against

sexuality

dehumanized images of women and of women's bodies in wonder there is so much male violence

the

pomograph) and

To them

of the Goddess.

gilts, the gifts

outrast that with the

C

tion

me

ere di\

is

not unrelated to the dominator religious "good"' or saintly

evil, that really

men do

not

women and the dominator ideal that "real" men

they're clearly dominant, and thus won't be tainted by the

inferior "feminine."

RMN: Do

you

more generally associated with the How do you dominator/partnership model? polytheism

feel that

is

feminine principle, and monotheism with the masculine principle? think this applies to the

R1ANE:

I

don't think that polytheism

me

feminine principle. But

let

the masculine principle

first,

masculinity and femininity arisen primarily out of a

try to

may

is

necessarily

is

more associated with

the

untangle something about the feminine and

I? In

my work

I

stress that the

way we

define

to a very large extent an artificial construct that has

dominator society.

We are just beginning to understand, for example, that this idea that the yin, the feminine, religion

was

is

passive and pallid

is

nonsense.

it

themes

the

in earlier

and the active

the fire, the shamanistic fire of the priestesses,

creative sexuality of the Goddess. In fact that in

One of

some of the Hindu Tantric

tradition has

still.

The

idea that there

is

no contemplative element

element; that to be masculine

is

to

masculine, no caring

in the

be assertive, aggressive, and conquering

is

also a distortion.

So talking of

the feminine and masculine principle

because people make certain associations of clusters of them. But I'm hoping that really

develops

— we

—

as a

new consciousness

will find other

names

is

useful

human

point

at this

qualities with

for the twenty-first century

for these qualities that are essentially

gender-neutral qualities, like being active or passive, or being earing and nonviolent or aggressive and violent.

..

.

.

.

Monotheism, as we have known it, has been hasically, "My God's better than your God, and tf yOU don V believe me 77/ kill you." .

•

,

,

,

Monotheism,

as

'

,

..

.

,

been basically, ;uul

(j(KJ -

„ uu]

hat

ls

dominator

S)

V()U

,

we have known .

.

Mv God

,

.

s

M

Mlcvc mc

clolft

it,

has

.

better than

\

,,„

our kll|

VCI v nuich ;issocl; ,ied with the

stem. But

1

think

it's a

mistake

to describe the earlier religion as a polythc-

was more of what

istie religion,

because

would

Campbell used

call

it

the

term

I

I

synchronistic.

Legacy of

I

deal with this in The

manifestations,

many

(

'halice

Everybody had

the Goddess.

and

islcrll.oyc

the Blade in the chapter

a different

on the

Goddess, and she had many

aspects of the divine. She could be the Creatrix, the

grandmother or crone. She could be the Mother Goddess. Or she could be maiden. But there was also an underlying commonality.

Huyuk

Perhaps in Catal

where

the

Goddess had her own name.

In the

the

Balkans,

UCLA archaeologist Marija Gimbutas has done her excavations, they also

worshipped the Goddess and she had many of the same

may have

called her

by different names. So

between polytheism and monotheism system. Because what

we

really

I

attributes,

although they

think that the whole distinction

again a construct of the dominator

is

have here

a basic recognition of certain

is

universals, but also a recognition of, and respect for, diversity.

DAVID L: see

In terms of a twenty-first century consciousness,

a recognition

is

once again of the

what

I

increasingly

dichotomy of this idea of monotheism

false

versus polytheism. Generation after generation, we've been sold this idea that

monotheism represented pagans worshipping

all

the great advance in religion. There

those gods and goddesses, and

were

all

those

we were told how bad

that

was. There was this great advance that Moses and the Egyptian Pharaoh Akhenaton

brought where one god prevailed.

Of

—one male god—

prevailed. If you were inventing a what you'd want. You'd say what we're going to sell all those dumb bunnies out there on is this idea there's going to be one god, and that god's going to be male and of course we're going to control this god, he's ours, we the priests who get our money from the rulers. This then not only excludes all those people out there, all the masses, from any sense of direct access

course, one

god

totalitarian society, that's exactly

—

power"

to the "higher

democracy

at

it

also excludes the possibility of anything approaching

an early point in history.

It

condemns the mass of humanity

the hands of tyrannical structures century after century after

to

be

in

century, by impos-

ing this idea of a false monotheism.

The

truth about the earlier situation is very difficult for

grasp, because

—and

this is

again a function of a

most people

to

dominator system —our minds

imbedded in the either/or mindset. It can't be both/and; it has to be either/or. Well, if you get out of this bind into the both/and perspective, and you look at the nature of the deity back there, you find both a unity and a plurality. are firmly

You could have your own goddess for your particular locality, in the next country,

they called deity.

C

people could

call their

or D. But they were

And when you had

all

because

that

would be

visualized as part of the

that kind of situation,

and beat up your neighbor, and rape

and

all

his

a breech of a sacred

39

call

it

A.

And

goddess B, and others could have gods

you didn't

feel

same overriding compelled to go

women, and grab all his possessions, bond. You were all bound together as

I ,.\«

/ i.sU-r

pan of Gaia. This is the kind of peaceful attitude and respect was shattered by this system we've been sold.

RIANE: of

Bui you would HOI think of

descent * as matnlineal,

all.

So

property.

DJB: The values do you see

that consciousness.

—however,

not

Again, you see

how

the

in

—

peace, prosperity, cre-

viewing evolution from a

holistic perspec-

a beneficial role in the

scheme of things?

RIANE:

No. People seem

something happened,

it

fore, if

we had

this

you look

to think that, if

had

to

happen. That's

linear, nineteenth century, idea that

everything

—

evolution, just because

with the deterministic,

moves

in

upward

stages. There-

it.

The most basic technologies on which mentals

at

in line

dominator phase, then there must have been some kind of

great evolutionary design to

all

civilization

is

based, the funda-

agriculture, pottery, the social technologies of organized religion, of

law-giving

some

First

conceptualizing, has trapped us.

dominator type of society playing

the

women."

women were

your neighbor and his

just used,

of a partnership society are obvious

ative expression, etc.

larger

as "your neighbor's

whole construction you've

that

women, would not be part of language, the way we're used to

tive,

women

went through the mother, and

it

for diversity that

—

Now, you do machine age, and now

get

would

the

are rooted in the earlier partnership societies.

real technological leaps

when you go

into the

electronic age. But I've always asked myself the question: what industrial revolution

have been

the

like in a society that oriented to a partnership

model? Would we have built factories where people were cogs in machines? Obviously not. So think we need to make a distinction between the fact that we have this I

thrust

towards higher technological complexity, and the accident

happened

in a

time

when we

that

some of

it

oriented very largely to the dominator model, and

not try to always see causality here.

DAVID cal.

L:

To me

there are

Logicall) we're asking

two aspects

was

this a

here,

one

logical, the other psychologi-

necessary step

in evolution'/

Could we

where we are without it? And the tendency is to say, no. WC was just one of those awful necessary things we had to go couldn't have; have gotten

to

it

through. But to I

get, tlie

me

more I'm

it's

much more

vivid

if

I

look

at

it

as a psychologist. The older

horrified b> the following picture of our

development over a

lifetime.

We're born as organisms into this world. We i\o through all this Stress and growing up. It were a member of a fairly affluent Western family, for

strain ol

example, we escape trom our primary family when we're 40

in

our early twenties.

Eisler/Loye

Now

of cases,

the awful stuff that

all

we spend

the next twenty years, at least into our

armchairs in the offices of psychologists and other counselors, trying to

forties, in

shed

in the best

was loaded on us during our first twenty

years.

to get just a little bit

of freedom from

all

the distortions of our past,

all

Then

we

our forties or fifties Jung's individuation and "maturity" takes over, and

in

begin

the problems.

We don't have to blame our parents any longer. We can begin to be maybe really creative, to think about other people. We begin to get the feeling for how to do this in

our

sixties, in

our seventies, and so

we

reach this great stage where

contribute something to the advancement of humanity

There's been this whole

beginning point!

opened up

And

—and we

expended on trying

life

of humanity!

this is the story

we

can

die!

to reach the healthy

Now what

Riane's work has

human terms, and in human terms, just simply imagine what life could be

the vision of the alternative, both in personal

is

historical terms. In personal

you were born into a partnership-type society-that is, an advanced version of what we now know existed earlier, where you like if

...

didn

,A t

.

have

,1

all

wereach this great Stage ... # where we can contrib*' something to the advancement of human"V an** we ^ie

u j i i the distortions, the imbal-

-

ance, the degradation and the stunting of the

dominator system to work through. Once

you

bosom of

the

left

early twenties,

work

cally to

automati-

good things of the

sixty years to enjoy life

and add

,

'

the family in your

why you just went

for the

-

.

earth.

to the thrust

You had anywhere from

twenty to

of positive conscious evolution

rather than waste another lifetime adding nothing but the feeling of meaningless futility

behind.

When we went to Crete we saw the remnants of the magnificent peak of that early culture, Minoan Crete. You look at these glorious ruins, and you realize that here

was

what

to

this

very advanced

do with

it

—

state.

They

knew what

really

the beauty, the ritual, the

art,

greater sharing, rather than the hoarding of wealth. off,

with the dominator takeover, and we're only

evolution

is

from partnership

to

was

Then

about, and

economy,

the

there's this great drop

now beginning to get back to the

same place we were thousands of years ago. So prehistoric shift

life

the trade, the

I

think the idea that the

dominator systems was a necessary step

in

crazy.

DJB: Lynn Margulis and James Lovelock have together synthesized a theory which they have termed the Gaia hypothesis, to explain how the delicate chemical ratios in our planet's oceans and atmosphere are maintained such that life is possible. They claim that the planet earth operates much like a single living system one huge organism. Does this theory, in your opinion, support the

—

notion that our planet could, in a sense, be slowly transforming into a global partnership

community

for 41

its

own

human

survival and growth?

existence

RIANE:

I1k

\

the Gaia hypothesis because Gaia was the ancient Greek Mother Goddess. So look at their Gaia hypothesis as a

called

was

Oreatrix, she

it

the

I

scientific update of the belief

cultures

ho. as

\\

RMN: Do

I

s\stcm of these earlier more partnership-oriented

said, did see the earth as alive.

you think

wars can be viewed as an

that

intellectually organized

attempt to externalize territorial/emotional conflict, and what do you think that

women

men can

learn

from

RIANE:

In the

dominator system what happens

species.

The women

—

about emotional navigation and expression?

is

that

the female half of humanity

dominant version of this system are not supposed

to

we become a schizophrenic

—

male-

in the androcratic,

have any say

in social policy.

This system negates the essentials. Caring, compassion, nonviolence, the things

make

that

no say

in

possible for us to survive, and thrive, are relegated to

it

decision-making.

So we isn't all in

—

identity

men

more predisposed

are

hormonal or whatever

factors,

women who have

equated with conquest.

is

with this premise. But even

start

that

And male

if

it

were

true

to learn violent

—and

the evidence

behaviors because of

because they don't give birth or some other

factor,

would be all the more reason that we need to very rapidly leave behind a which constantly and systematically teaches men these behaviors. We hand the little boy a toy sword or a toy missile, and say go get them. We hand the little girl a doll and say be nice. But then we tell the girl, you have nothing to say in social policy. And we wonder why do we have a system where this

society

we

don't honor caring, compassion, and nonviolence!

crazy system.

It's a

long been

in a

I

There's no question about

men

to learn

think that yes, at this point, because

men have

dominator system, it.

But

from women, but

this is difficult,

it's difficult

we have

a great deal to learn

for

and

it's

women

not only difficult for

to learn

from women,

because of the whole idea that authority figures should be male. We've conditioned to think of

God

as a man.

We

for so

from women.

all

been

have been conditioned to think of the

person, the entity, that you learn from as masculine.

But V\

this is not

ere dealing with

who make ot the

it

a

an issue of

against

system, a dominator system,

to the top, like a

way when

women

they're

at

at

in

which even

Margaret Thatcher, have

the top of the

Norway

about forty or more percent

tor

to

is

a

mass entry of

example, where they have

women

the tew

women

keep proving every inch

male dominator system,

too sott or "feminine." So. what's necessary

public Sphere. (Look

men, or men against women.

a

that they're not

women

into the

parliament that's

and public policy reflects more of the

"feminine" values.)

means to be a man. The main men are now questioning the old models of masculinity, asking what does really mean to he masculine or feminine'.'

And

it's

good news

is

also a question of the redefinition of what

that

it

42

it

Eisler/Loye

And

they're beginning to recognize that this

masculine.

DAVID

sensitivity.

I

is

not

plain brutal.

It's just

L:

whole conquest thing

my

see another aspect, from

Without going into the reason for

current explorations into moral it,

a fundamental contrast

between

two models is that in that earlier state, toward which we may be moving if we're lucky now, moral sensitivity was the norm. In other words, spirituality was the

was

not a matter of an hour on Sunday. Spirituality

a twenty-four hour-a-day

business, seven days a week, round the year, round the lifetime, and moral

was abnormal.

z>/sensitivity

Now

if

you look

what has prevailed during the

at

period of the rise of the world's so-called great religions

Mohammedism

dhism, Hinduism,

—you

for a span of five thousand years z>?sensitivity is the

Christianity,

Bud-

see that under the dominator system,

we've endured

a situation in

which moral

norm.

In other words, the average truly

—

morally sensitive person

is

person

is

viewed as immoral, amoral, and the

seen as abnormal, as the exception or as a freak.

would love to abide by the golden rule and so on, but the world isn't set up that way. If I were to go act, they'd kill me. So, consequently, I am the president of the United States, but I must of course lie. Let's say I am Harry Truman, but I must drop the atom bomb on Hiroshima and

The people

Nagasaki

in leadership will say,

—

Oh,

I

way the rotten world is. This relates to the fundamental why we have wars. In that earlier partnership-oriented system the

that's just the

question of

question of war

was almost unthinkable.

In other words,

it

would be viewed

as

such a fundamental violation of the nature of one's relation to the universe that

one would explore limits, we'll

go

kinds of alternatives short of war. There's no check, no

all

to war.

We'll have

this

wonderful war because there just aren't

the moral constraints.

RIANE:

Just think of the term

"nobleman."

A very

short time ago, the "noble-

man" was the warrior. Talk about an immoral norm. We've been gradually rejecting that. But organized killing or being warrior was once the only "honorable" career for an upper-class male. Back

to the

consciousness for the twenty-first century,

twenty-first century, the

overlay. in the

whole issue now

is

if

there's to

if

you

bringing

it

RMN:

males tend

If

it's

remained

will, either buried in mystical traditions, in religious

rhetoric, or in the so-called

society couldn't have

be a

leaving behind the dominator

The partnership consciousness has always remained, but

underground,

a

women's world.

gone on. But now

It's

it's

been there because otherwise

a question of breaking through,

into social governance.

to

demonstrate violence externally, do you think

females are often more internally violent, and what do you 43

feel that

it's

true that

women

can

Eider bay*

trom men's tendency

learn

RIANE:

People say

emotional. But

Men

if

to intellectuali/e

men

thai

and thus objectify emotional states?

aren't emotional,

yOil think about

and

women

that only

are

that, it's not true.

are socialized so that they're allowed

one type of emotion: anger,

contempt, rage. They're actually encouraged to be angry, and to express anger. It's a

"masculine" thing

Women

get

all

to

—

as

it

serves to maintain their dominance.

So

the rest of the emotions. Except anger.

can't evei express anger,

So here we have

Men

do

what are you going

this insane

to

naturally,

do? You internalize

system again, crippling both

to learn to express anger. I

don't think

it's

women

so recent that

it's

women

need

and men.

be able to assert themselves and

to

And men need to learn to listen to women's women learning from men how to

an issue of

Education for women, which

is

what gives us the

ability to better use

know

absolutely mind-boggling. Did you

The few women who had higher education got

where

a father said,

just as

much

But

I

I

want

my

that until the

don't think that being objective

nobody can

truly

when

I

mid-

women. Not

tutorial

think

is

system,

women

have

the answer.

be objective, that we're

way

for

all

men

Because we now know

products of our cultures

—and

to detach themselves, to not feel

rather than dealing with the

DJB: Richard Dawkin's calls

is

As in counting how many human suffering.

they are examining, for example, war.

bombs were dropped,

what he

through a

daughter to also be educated.

objectify.

of a capacity to be intellectual as men, or to be objective.

that often so-called objectivity is a

anything

it

anger.

our minds,

nineteenth century there were no American universities that accepted

that

you

certainly need other emotions, other feelings, "soft" feelings such as

compassion and empathy. And

one.

if

it.

memes

—

theory of cultural evolution assumes the existence of units of cultural information

themselves by hopping from brain to brain, and

—

that

seek to replicate

like genes, are subject to the

laws

of natural selection. In this context, dominator and partnership models of society

can be viewed as being composed ot tor the

occupation of

human

brains.

memes Does

that are

this

competing with one another

view add any further

insight into

your theor) ol cultural evolution'/

RIANE:

I

prefer

Vilmos C'sanvi's and Humberto Maturana's views. Csanvi

speaks of the replication of ideas, not only the replication of very important component

in

cultural evolution,

cells.

whether or not

Rupert Sheldrake proposes, through morphogenetic

it

And

that's a

happens, as

fields.

DAVID L: One reason tor the popularity ol gene theories is because it's hard for some people to visuali/e how all cultural transmission can be through reading hooks, and teaching, where

it's a

transmission of ideas trom the printed page to 44

Eisler I Loye

the eyes, to the mind.

They look

at

the evidence and think there's

more going on

example, came up with the idea of the collective unconscious,

there. Jung, for

that there is transmission

through archetypes.

memory bank

Sheldrake's idea of a giant invisible

evidence of other forms of transmission.

A

is that

there

is

so

much

huge amount of so-called psychic

research into telepathy, clairvoyance, and that whole realm indicates there are other forms of transmission that enter the replication process

which Vilmos

Csanyi and Maturana articulate beautifully. I've also noticed that the genebe more basically conservative and

theorists tend to

also be interesting to note that, in political

positive correlation

traditionalist.

Here

it

may

psychology studies show a strong

between liberalism and empathy, and a negative correlation

between empathy and conservativism.

RIANE:

Let

me

put that into historical context, in the context of the tension

between the partnership and the dominator models. The question of empathy central here.

system a

is

Because one of the things

to find

man supposed

some way to

to

that

you have

to

do

deaden empathy. For example,

do the kinds of things

that he's

in the

how

supposed

to

world

in the

do

is

dominator

in war,

is

and

have empathy?

While we're on that subject, somebody was telling me of evidence suggesting that

when we humans engage

bodily reward.

impulse, that helpful impulse,

RMN: You

in helpful behavior, there is a release

We feel better for is

it.

of a chemical

And yet in the dominator system that empathic

constantly being suppressed or distorted.

have made use of Ralph Abraham's systems theory which explains

the motions of cultural trends in terms of a response to chaotic or periodic

What historical examples have you discovered which model of cultural evolution? attractors.

RIANE: Ralph

speaks a great deal about attractors, and

I

fit

into this

have looked

at the

partnership and the dominator models as attractors. Using Ralph's terminology, if

we

look

at

prehistory as a basin, then the stable attractor there

was

the

partnership model. I'm talking about the mainstream now, because obviously the attractor

on the fringes was the dominator model.

Once we

get into recorded history

it

becomes more complex. There

are

still

elements of the partnership model, but they are coopted and exploited by the

dominator system,

like

monetary reward and

women's

nurturing

work

in the family,

which

is

given no

little status.

what you also see is what Ralph calls periodicity, periods when the partnership model becomes a stronger attractor. But it never quite makes it. You never see the change, the system's transformation, where it becomes the primary Still,

45

/ -i\U-r

Ley*

and

attractor,

The

in

(

'halice

and

the Blade,

I

Such as early Christianity. But then the Church

Roman emperor,

of the so-called church fathers) with the

happens

that

is

you begin

dominant structure

to see again a very

— no women allowed

structure, as manifested in the

some of

describe

allies itself

in the

these periods.

(under the leadership

Constantine.

And what male

hierarchic, completely

priesthood

— and

Crusades and the Inquisition.

a very violent

words

In other

you've got the dominator model again.

now jump

jet's

I

beginning

modern

to

to definitely reject the

when women and men were

times, to the sixties,

Women were

sexual stereotypes.

And men and

exclusion from leadership and from the so-called public sphere. \\

to

omen were

rejecting the equation of masculinity with warfare. Is

be a warrior? Wait a minute, they said, no

regression, the

And

"new conservatism,"

we

today what

around us

all

in

it

is

it

really heroic

But again you had

a

the rightist-fundamentalist resurgence.

are continuing to see in the world

partnership resurgence. But

can see

isn't.

it

rejecting their

is

a

mounting

against tremendous dominator resistance, as

we

what's happening, from the U.S. Supreme Court to the

spread of Islamic fundamentalism. In greater resistance. Until there

is

fact, the

stronger the partnership thrust, the

a systems shift

—which

where

is

the

new

consciousness has a major role to play.

DAVID

L: This

is

another reason for the force of Riane's book, because

the challenge of social

of us

change within the most forceful context

who have worked

certainly

at

Much

this

massive wall of resistance, the

of the evil force of the dominator system

any kind of system the resistance against change

So we've had change has

to

this idea

come

we

is

phenomenal.

little

is

that

blip appears within

it

in

-

that all

shows you can have a system going seem to amount to a hill of

it

—

mathematicians such as Ralph Abraham, but here a model tor hope that creating what,

and

it

that doesn't

may appear and then disappear but may also rapidity, and become more and more prevalent until changed. This is why the strange attractor phenomena is

a

inertia within

just this inertia. In

We've had the idea that it's going to take many 1945 when the bombs went off, people have begun to

It

is

puts

Those

don't have time for slow social change. So to the activist, the great

along, and a

terms

is

—and Darwinian theory helped lock

excitement about chaos theory

beans.

it

of.

slowly.

generations. But ever since realize

know

various stages for civil rights and other causes have

had the experience of

the system.

I

in

Prigoginian terms,

strange attractor.

if luck is

w

we may

ith us.

we

And chaos

can.

it

the

whole system has

fascinating, not only to

to social theorists.

survive, that there is

spread with astounding

may

called a nucleation.

theory shows that

in a relatively short

it

amount

Because they see be enough of us

which

in

dynamic

enough of us, time, which is all the

there are oi

time we've got. transform the whole system. II

va Prigogine can show

this

happening

in

chemical solutions. Ralph

Eisler/Loye

Abraham can show

happening with computer projections. What

it

about Riane's book

is

prehistory. For these

were the

You

invaders acted in effect as a strange attractor.

work, coming, going,

exciting

is

shows this happening on a global scale in dynamics of the Kurgan invasions. The Kurgan

that she

see the strange attractor

until within a relatively short period

at

of time the whole

system has been taken over by the dominator culture acting as a "peripheral invader," to use Eldridge and Gould's term.

Because we now

happened

shift

understand a

in a

how

pro-human

at last

have the pre-historical data

that

shows us how

negative and anti-human direction back there,

the

same kind of rapid

direction.

shift

can happen today

Another implication of chaos theory

is

we

—but

can

this

now

time in

this

extremely impor-

going by the mathematics, or chemistry of chaos theory, one might

tant. Just

when we move over from natural to social science this remains a random process, and we have to just sit by and hope that we're part of a strange

think that

But other systems theorists

attractor.

—Ervin

Laszlo, for example,

General Evolution Research Group, which Riane and

showing

the effect of

human change

agents.

We

I

who heads the

helped forum

don't have to just

sit

—

are

back and

We can

wait for this mystic scientific process to

maybe work

show

change agents, can definitely make a

human

that

intervention, through

in

our advantage.

difference.

DJB: Do you

think that there

civilization that

is

a relationship

between the two types of human

you define, and the over-specialization of specific hemispheres

in the brain?

RIANE:

I

answer

better.

complex question, and David probably could a fallacy that people seem to think that this earlier archaic prehistoric period was all right brain. If you look at Crete, if you look at the technology, they obviously did some very logical, linear so-called left brain thinking. If you look at Stonehenge, at these massive ritual centers, they had to have had some left brain capacity to do this.

it

And

think that that's a very

look

But

at all

I

think that

the inventions that

Clearly prehistory wasn't I

it's

all right

we owe

to these people!

brain.

think

I

it

was more balanced, and

think in that sense you're right about an over-specialization of the

dominator

societies.

localized either, these faculties. that

when we're

integration of

know

But of course you

And David

it's

can

tell

you more about

talking about a partnership society,

what we now think of as

right

left

brain in

not that clear that they're that

and

we

that.

I

think

are talking about an

left brain,

about more of a

system view, a holographic view.

DAVID

L: Certainly, the earlier culture was more right brain oriented than our

culture tends to be, but there

is all this

evidence indicating that

47

it

was

a

much

I

islcr

\
z

of the possible candidates. c P cnd

...next to nuclear war.. r exfare (the population r .

J before

.

'

. \ is)

.

if

,

fa r

wc

d

u

we

think a

fP

lot will

rcs,mrccs

le,e

reverse the population explosion,

assuming we

i

probably the best candidate for dnving us to extinction

plosion

on how

I

«•

n

Y.

\. where we

finally reach a stage

some p()int wc havc {Q Um]{ ZPG? zero population steady-state. We know that from

do Certajnly

at

reproduction t0 a

growth, or

elementary considerations. \\

hen

think about the future in that regard,

I

which

do very

I

imagine the next hundred years will be crucial in determining what bring ourselves back from. In other words, do realizing that there are unfortunate

resources. In India you can

mountains and

feel up. the

go

hundreds and thousands die

near

yearswill be crucial in determining what we have to bring ourselves back from. to

trees weren't

Brazilian

what

1

Bombay

for example.

are these

to

Mangrove . like

Will

DJB: Boh. do you

far

trccs that scnd out

Hmbs and

goats

legs,

and

roots, that

from the ground, and they weren't going

grow anymore, and

it

just

at all,

I

ground, because there was

al-

think

shown

of

like ecological chaos.

So

areas of the earth, and then face

on

this planet?

Or will

things get

then'.'

development.' Terence

enlargement

seemed

imagine will we do away with the

we do away with whole

it's

possible that the introduction of psycho-active plants

into the food chain Ol early

Fisher has

thousand

see the complete

were reac hing up on their hind nibbling the growing tips of these

to have ten to twelve billion people

under control before

the

You

roots from their lowcst

think about the future

torest'.'

it's like

to

be enough goats to keep them from reaching the ground. So the

going

anyway, when

we have

the road of India before

consequences of depleting your natural

to reach the

ways going

go

I

which leads to the alternate cycle of floods, where in floods, and then tremendous periods of drought. I remember coming back down from this place, going towards Bombay, and there

u a A next hundred

.

...the

all

to these beautiful geological strata, four

hills

deforestation of these areas,

we

rarely,

primates had any influence on our evolutionary

McKenna

the neocortex

that

thinks that psilocybin

and the development

mushrooms catalyzed ol

language. Roland

low doses of psilocybin increase visual acuity.

Robert Trivers

ROBERT:

don't imagine

I

it's

had any, or much of an evolutionary

effect.

RMN: Do you have a theory about why the brain size of Homo sapiens increased so rapidly over such a short period of time?

ROBERT:

don't have any particular theory, no.

I

It

seems

must have been bound up primarily with language. Which

development primates

in

our

we know

own

We know now

lineage.

compared

have gone hand in hand with language. in

a

it,

because

I

to

me

obvious

that

it

another great unique

of animal languages, and

in

do use some sounds symbolically. But

that various species

these are very, very rudimentary

is

I

our language. So,

to

think reciprocal altruism

don't think you get selection for

much

I

think

it

must

was bound up

language, unless you have

back and forth kind of relationship, where each benefits from the interaction.

Even then

among

think of language initially as starting in families, and spreading

I

close relatives, and being beneficial that way.

RMN: What possibilities do you see for our future evolution, of humans or other species?

ROBERT: in

own

our

what form

haven't thought

I

much about future evolution. Again, it's contingent

species' case with getting the population that's

going

to take

—

whether

it's

growth under control, and

natural disasters and non-nuclear

war, and that kind of thing, that's going to keep populations under control, or

whether

it's

some kind of voluntary

restraint, it's

hard to guess.

what system of reproductive competition we get the population growth under control.

to visualize after

DJB:

It's

hard for

me

will exist in the species,

How do you think consciousness evolved, and how do you see

it

evolving

into the next century?

ROBERT:

Well, I'm not sure what consciousness

scious to a limited degree.

conscious, but

I

I

think there's a

little

on in insects that I've played How do you see it evolving in the

Dave?

DJB: Well, for

think insects are con-

light turned

with, and they're conscious of what's going on. future,

is. I

don't think they're highly conscious or acutely self-

I

see brain capacity, and information processing abilities increasing,

one thing.

ROBERT: leaving

Increasing? So, that assumes

more surviving offspring? 63

now

that bigger-brained

people are

DJB: Well, what I'm looking at

is

the overall 4.5 billion years of evolution, and

brain capacity has increased, intelligence has increased.

ROBERT: DJB:

So.

Yeah. Right. see the pattern continuing

I

ROBERT:

on

But do you disagree with

into the future.

my

statement? In other words, you see

bigger-brained people leaving more surviving offspring.

DJB: Well,

actually,

I

think

size of people's brains, but

I

I

see exactly the opposite.

see those

who

I

wonder why

ROBERT:

Well, you see this is the conflict between view of evolution, and one that always insists

You can't extrapolate from past patterns, some momentum, or force, carrying you through to

behind

don't

know

about the

more

are less educated reproducing

quickly than the more educated, unfortunately.

netic

I

it.

this is?

a teleological or orthoge-

be

that natural selection

unless you imagine there

is

you believe

in

the future. If

evolution through natural selection, then you believe in the changes, which have

been general, but not universal towards greater brain vertebrates, there's been increase in brain size, in

size. If

mammals

you look

over the

at

last

the

150

Been no increase in fish in 400 million years. No increase in amphibians, so far as I know. Increase in birds. Even in human lineage, think there's no evidence of any increase in the last 100 thousand years. I'm not so sure about that statement. I know cro-magnan man was sort of a large-bodied form, million years.

I

but

it

DJB:

had...

A

RMN:

I

larger cranium.

heard that

at

some

point they had brain capacities larger than

we have

now.

ROBERT:

I've heard that too.

DJB: Why do you

think consciousness evolved in the

first place'.'

How

is

adaptive?

ROBERT:

Well, again,

DJB: Awareness,

RMN:

Or

it

depends On what we mean by consciousness.

the opposite of being unconscious.

the ability to receive

and transmit information.

it

even

Robert Trivers

ROBERT:

Yeah,

me,

to

it's

just

some kind of

a heightened mental faculty,

allowing heightened learning, and quicker responses to on-going events, which,

however,

costly.

is

I

always use the analogy of an

being switched

electric light

on, or not being switched on, partly because we're so visual, and our images of

And

consciousness are so visual.

have periods of unconsciousness

DJB: Can you explain your

ROBERT:

to rest

what

is

is

where

lection for deception,

deception. This

the truth

we

sleep, or

we

a very expensive kind of ability.

theory of self-deception?

there's

/ tend to think that selfdeception has been as important in human history as mental acu-

been se-

and spotting decep-

then there's been selection for selfis

a

new

kind of uncon-

where you systematically hide

sciousness,

expensive, so

tend to imagine that in social

I

species, especially

tion,

a light bulb

from yourself.

I

ity itself is.

tend to think that

self-deception has been as important in

human

history as mental acuity itself

is.

was minimally self-deceived, and not quite as quick with his brain, than someone who was quicker, but practiced a lot of selfdeception. So when you talk about the future of consciousness, my mind goes I'd rather

around, and

I

have a leader

that

how selection is operating with when we're talking about things least, to get some natural selection

think about self-deception, and

regard to that, and

it's

just so hard to speculate

on a time-scale of a few thousand years,

at the

going that's going to show up with something.

While

at the

same

time,

we know

we're going to see radical changes,

I

that in the next

couple of hundred years

think, in our environment, including our

medical environment, including this bio-engineering business. Because bioengineering starts to get into conflict with natural selection

about changing our genome, the initially

would create only

to get rid

of

More

my

genome

that's in

our gonads.

a small effect, so we're going to

go

extensive revision of yourself I

start talking

A small

amount

and we're going

is

like

almost interfering with personal

think those forces are going to be large and looming

before regular old natural selection has had time to produce a different than ourselves.

An

issue that

I

cut myself off

human that's much

from has

to

do with social

Normalizing selection chops off the

extremes

all

the time, and keeps the species

close together.

Right ity in

in,

we

bad eye genes, and a few other bad genes. That's very minimal.

genetic reproduction, and

cost.

if

now there's three percent mortal-

our society between age zero and age

twenty -five. That's very very small. Next to

no variance can be generated by

that small a 65

Normalizing

selection

chops off the extremes all the timey and keeps the species close together

assume ninety-five percent of individuals couple up, or many, and isn'( lOO far off from that right now. And let's assume everyone has two children, and let's assume you're supposed to have two, and you're not So then

selection.

let's

if

supposed

have an) more than two, and

to

an intriguing argument that

\\ ell.

awhile the species will

start

normalizing selection. So,

you lose one, you replace

was published

coming

in the

if

extreme case,

an hour

tor a half

demands

at

my baby will

night,

and

all

few years back said

after

because you'll no longer have

apart,

after fifty generations of this or

something, your baby will require a certain kind of trembling Spasms, and

a

it.

require that

it

keep

pills to

keep

it's left

from having

it

leg in

warm water

of us will grow up with these environmental

necessary to compliment what normally would just have been

that are

taken care of genetically.

So

begin to go up, but right

the social costs

now we

selection. I'm thinking of matters like

that don't

medical advances. AT we have people who Now

can

»

/

i

..

.

,,

,

miserably J be-

live

.

.

tween eighty and ninety.

. .

can

all

live

have

,

been

Now we have people who

.. /, ./ I don t know if you all have \. xm any of**. these nursing homes. Mv

into

wife worked

night long.

I

in

,

it.

the word.

It

a case

where

suicide,

I

,

uscd to pick her

I'd wait outside.

There

they've been in there for six

more screaming, and

They're looking forward to death, because the screaming is

.

them and

couldn't take

You know,

years screaming, and they'll be in there for five

So, there

many

to

miserably between eighty and ninety, y B

. Jjtll iust dreadfully.

up.

were people screaming

already have so

do with natural the elder generation and the result of

from related biological things

social costs

is all

that's

it.

they're doing.

think, can be adaptive in several senses of

makes some sense if there was a dignified, good way to do it. Dave is eighty-three now, and he's not taking care of himself, and

certainly

I'd just say well,

he's going to have this farewell party, and we're going to say good-bye.

RMN:

It'll

ROBERT:

be a happy occasion.

Yeah, something like that

—

friends gathered around.

66

a

happy occasion. His

relatives

and

Nick Herbert "I think that

mind

is

light

as fundamental to nature as

or electricity."

67

Faster than faster than light with Nick Herbert

Nick Herbert holds a Ph.D. in experimental physics from Stanford University.

Memorex, Santa Clara, and other Bay Area hardware companies specializing in magnetic, electrostatic, optical, and thermal methods of informal ion processing and storage. He has taught science at all levels from

He was

senior scientist at

graduate school to kindergarten including the development, with his wife Betsy, of a hands-on home-schooling science curriculum. Nick was the coordinator (along with Saul-Paul Sirag) of Esalen Institute's physics and consciousness

many workshops on the quantum mechanics of everyday life. He is the author o/Quantum Reality: Beyond the New Physics, Faster Than Light (published in Japan under the title Time Machine Construction Manual),

program and has

led

Elemental Mind:

Human

Consciousness and the

New

Physics,

and he devised

the shortest proof of BelVs inter connectedness theorem to date.

He

has written on faster -than-light and quantum theory for such journals as the American Journal of Physics and New Scientist, and is Fringe Science columnist for

Mondo

2000.

We

interviewed Nick April 23, 1989, on a

hill

overlooking Santa Cruz, California. Nick spoke with us about the implications of Bell's Theorem, superluminal loopholes in physics,

and

the secret technologies

behind time travel and contacting the dead, including step-by-step instructions

your very own time machine. Nick is an ardent disciple of quantum theory's left-hand path, and his abilty to humanize science and his on how

to build

imaginative speculations on time travel

make him both

fascinating

and fun. He

has a way of making even the most complex concepts of quantum physics easily understandable. He is very warm, has a contagious sense of humor, and has an

uncanny

talent for

making

the

mundane seem

mysterious,

—DJB

68

Nick Herbert

DJB: What was

NICK:

it

that originally inspired

your

started out in a Catholic prep school.

I

was

the idea

through that

become

to

took religion and Latin there, and

was my

a Catholic priest. That

got derailed.

I

1

interest in physics?

mind, and decided science was probably the place where hottest part of science I

think

time

I

it's

it

DJB: Kind of a

the

guy

was God,

all

the hot stuff was.

The

State and majored in physics.

but

now

I

me,

think, at least for

it's

science.

who are seeking to serve the ultimate power. He was the strongest

He'd

to give this

that the kings

quit

then, after giving is I

Ohio

quest for the ultimate nature of reality?

He wanted

always found serving.

to

kingdom, and he went around offering his services

in the

princes.

went

automobiles, the patron saint of travelers. But actually he's the patron

saint of people

man

I

My patron saint is Saint Christopher. You might know about him as

Yes. in

physics, so

my

changed

I

kind of a quest for what's the hottest thing going in this culture. At one

thought

NICK:

was

somewhere

goal, and

decided that wasn't the ultimate thing.

I

power

had

that

to kings

and they weren't it

would be just

really

That was what he did with his

worth

So could do

the same.

up on kings and princes, he decided, well one thing river.

He

he had to the highest service.

feet of clay,

one king and serve another, but

could take people across this

and

I

life.

He took

people across this river that didn't have a bridge. Finally this one

across?"

kid

little

"No problem," he

says,

came along and he and Christopher

said,

"Can you take me him across. The

starts taking

He

kid got heavier and heavier and heavier. Finally he could barely hold this guy.

stumbled across

"You were

says,

So he

finally

carrying Christ,

found the person

Christ bearer. serve. Right

to the other side,

I

like that story,

said,

"Whew, what was

and I'm

that?"

still

why

he's called Christopher

trying to find

my best, whether

—

the

some ultimate master to

now it's some kind of science. So that's the physics. I'm do

The kid

holds the whole world on his shoulders."

to serve. That's

the ultimate problems, and trying to little

and

who

it

looking for

be religion, science, or

things on the fringes of science.

RMN:

Could you explain to us the essence of Bell's Theorem, and the ideas about the nature of reality which those experiments have inspired in you?

NICK: Okay,

that's a

good way of putting

distinction that philosophers often

Appearance

is

what you

see,

it,

the nature of reality.

I

make

the

make, between Appearance, Reality and Theory.

and everything around

is

Appearance. Reality

is

the

hypothetical essence behind things, the secret behind things. Theories are stories that

we make up

Theorem

—

about these events, Appearance and Reality.

a proof derived

from physics

—says

69

is that

What

Bell's

the Appearances, certain

Appearances in physics, assume something about

when Iwo systems come the) re

connected

still

links the

two systems.

diminish with distance.

However Appearance.

this

It's

What we have

together, then separate,

some way by

in

o\'

on

the level of Reality, not

an underground connection, but

The question

is. if

wrote a

a

is

on the

as certain as

it's

level of

two plus two

what do you do with

it,

on the level of Appearance? So

I

it

we can prove,

an underground connection that

how come

is

since

that's the

song called "Bell's Theorem Blues," and the

we're really connected baby,

DJB: Do you all

little

is

that instantly

be shielded, and doesirt

very mysterious connection.

taster than light, can't

is

that

is

and aren't interacting any more,

voodoo-like connection,

a

It's a

connection

BelFs theorem: there I

assume about Reality

is

onl\ appears on the level of Reality, not

essence

to

This

four that this connection exists.

but not see.

we

certain experiments cannot be explained unless Reality.

of

jist

it

feel so all alone?

see Bell's Theorem, and our understanding from astrophysics that

were together at the moment of the Big Bang, as being possible explanation for mysterious phenomenon such as telepathy and particles in the universe

synchronicity?

NICK: Yeah, connected

all

I

DJB: Doesn't

NICK:

do. But

we have

Yeah.

it

I

think that

have something

If

it

would be too easy

telepathy. Because, again,

to

do with the recency of

little bit

how

now you have

like

because we're

feel so all alone?

the connection?

you make a connection, separate, and then make any other

connections, those later connections will dilute the strong, but

to say that

why do we

connection.

first

It's just

another connection that's speeding into you. So

as

it's

a

what's been called the coefficient of consanguinity, which measures

Your mother

close people are linked genetically.

your grandmother, and so forth on down. You're

all

the closest to you, then

is

linked by connections, but

more recent connections are the strongest. But even then, even when you've met somebody, and separated, the telepathy between you is not really readily apparent. It would be be something, wouldn't it, if we lived in a society where the last person you met you had a telepathic contact with, until you met somebody else. That doesn't seem to happen, though, at least on the level we're aware of. So the real question is why is telepathy so dilute? would expect a proper the

just

I

science to explain that

Bell's

Theorem could

once we had

explaitl telepathy, hut

crease

what explains the lack of telepathy?

diluteness

it,

make if

fact.

Then, of course.

we could

in-

overcome

the

that explanation, it

greater, or

you didn't want

to

pat hie contact with certain people.

me

is

70

the biggest mystery. Bell's

have

telc-

So that to Theorem

Nick Herbert

could explain telepathy, but what explains the lack of telepathy? That's some-

who have addressed this fact on the level of psychology, but not physics, as to why we don't

thing

don't think anyone has really addressed. There are a few people

I

have telepathy. The most convincing answer that just too terrible to

around

that

RMN:

Also,

it

it

seems

is

that

it

would be

much

pain

to tap into that.

of people don't want to be that open about

that a lot

don't want people seeing into them.

—

NICK:

There's that too

want

look into other people?

to

know about

look into the hearts of people, because there's so

would be excruciating

maybe they

themselves,

I

I

don't want people to look into me. But suppose you

A reason not to do that would be that

it

would be

very painful.

RMN:

among

There seems to be an idea

they will eventually discover the fundamental particle,

matter

is

formed, and yet they continue to discover smaller and smaller versions

of this particle.

NICK: Oh, end

—

Some

that

What

are your thoughts

that

this, that

if

physics

came

to

consciousness

is

physics

coming

is

It's

to

an end, as far as the direction of

okay with me.

I

don't think that's the most

the toughest problem, and that physics has basically taken

the particles of nature

really tackle

some of

and

—

may even solve them. We may find all the forces and but then what? Then we have to

— harder problems—

that's physic's quest

these

God, and bigger problems

the nature of mind, the nature of

that

we

don't even

know how

to ask yet. So, actually

I'm not too interested in the problem of finding fundamental particles, but guess

is,

really

NICK: Yeah, DJB: You things,

I

do;

do think

it

that

that

I

it

my

we're very close to that situation.

that there is a

fundamental particle?

might be a quark or a lepton.

don't think that quarks are

and

NICK: Naw,

RMN:

we know now,

from what

DJB: So you

tal

an

way to go, looking for fundamental particles. You know my real notion

off on the easy problems, all

this?

ultimate particles, huh? I'd be perfectly content

people think

interesting

on

quarks and leptons were actually the world's fundamental particles.

finding fundamental particles goes.

is

by persistent analysis, the stuff from which all

physicists that

made up of even

smaller,

more fundamen-

goes on and on and on?

don't think so. That's just

Could you describe what

is

my

guess.

meant by a "measurement"? 71

Nick Ht

NICK: By

a

measurement? No,

quantum physics

when you

than

world,

I

that

is

don't.

it

I

could describe

When you

don't measure

when you measure it, when you don't look at the

it,

described as waves of vibrating possibilities, buzzing opportunities,

it's

not quite real, and

it's

sounds a

.,

.,

,

}°°\ ifs

, *

when you u u than when

-

vibrating.

into actualities,

^

...

from

through which

.

...

.

.

quanta, quantum jumps, like the

possibility to actuality,

happens

is

to

make

from waves

called a measurement.

is.

What's

a

measurement?

No one knows.

It's

lots

of guesses about what a measurement might be.

that

consciousness has to be involved

do the vibratory

called

re

,.',

,

little

, dots on

it

brief, the

world

to actual

to particles. And the door When you make a measure-

ment, that's what happens, but quantum physics doesn't

ment

and these ,

yy screen? or on a color photograph in a

magazine. So,

this

All

'

They

changes from possibility waves particles,

it?

It

Then when no ™. aL Thc P oss -

actualities are point-like.

.

measure it, you (ton t.

it's all

drugs doesn't

P erfec,| y

l°" bilities change 6 ...

describes the world

. rr differently JJ

..

little bit like

these oscillatin g possibilities.

The main problem in quantum physics is that //

that.

in

describes the world differently

promises and potentia. In some ways

..

quantum physics The main problem in

There's something

can't.

measurement problem, and

called the

tell

us what a measure-

not in the theory. There are

Some extreme

—only when some

entity

guesses are

becomes aware,

change into actualities. That's one guess. whenever a record is made, whenever something becomes irreversible, not take-backable, as long as you procrastinate your measurement, and refrain from making a real decision, then the world remains in a state of possibility. But as soon as it becomes irrevocable, then it's happened, and it's actual. So you look into nature for irrevocable acts, and that's where measurements happen. But, there are problems with both of these guesses. Physicists don't really have a really good model of what a measurement is. As say, it's called the measurement problem in quantum physics, and it's thc main possibilities

Another guess

is

that

I

philosophical problem. But fortunately, or unfortunately, physicists never have to confront this

We do

it

all

problem

the time.

no one ever sees

this

directly,

we know how to make measurements. people know how to make measurements. So

because

Even ordinary quantum world

directly, the vibratory possibilities, because

we have ways of making measurements. DJB:

We

NICK:

have ways of making the universe unambiguous.

we have ways of making the universe unambiguous. They're called Now, it's my feeling that when we look inside we actually experience some of this quantum ambiguity. Looking inside is not actually making a Yes,

the senses.

72

Nick Herbert

measurement all the time. We can actually dwell in this, on the other side, the other side meaning the vibratory possibilities. Some of our mind is there all the time, and part of mental life is taking this vibratory possibility and transforming it

into actualities.

Not

all

of mental

life,

but with

what we do. So we're aware of both sides external

in

some of our mental

our mental

life,

that's

but not in this

life,

life.

DJB: How has your study of quantum physics influenced your understanding of what consciousness

NICK: Yeah,

is?

we're already getting into

side of consciousness,

it's

that.

I

feel that

quantum physics

the material manifestation of consciousness.

is

one

Quantum

physicists are basically describing something that's conscious, and the inside of

quantum physics is what we experience as awareness. I mean, this notion of potentia becoming actual, doesn't that sound like what goes on in your mind?

DJB: From out of the realm of all things and make them actualities.

NICK:

things that are possible,

we

pick out a few

Yes. Exactly. Yeah, doesn't that sound like something mental beings do,

making decisions?

DJB: Yeah,

it

does.

So then do you think

it's

possible for consciousness to exist

without a physical container, so to speak?

NICK:

Yes, in a sense. But

I

don't think

ness to exist without matter around. But

it's

it

possible for our type of conscious-

needn't be this kind of matter in your

The kind of practice we humans know about is taking possibilities and making them actual. You've got to have a universe to make them actual in. So we probably need matter then. It seems that our kind of consciousness and matter are inseparable. So that when I die,

brain. Different minds, different highs.

probably most of

my

consciousness dies with me, because

between the big mind, the big

human

alloted to

bodies. But

possibilities, I

it's

an interaction

and the small range of

may change my mind.

possibilities

I've been reading Ian

Stevenson's book Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation, where little kids, when they begin to talk, say, "You're not my mother and dad. My parents live in this other

town about four miles away." Then they begin giving details about who and sisters are. It's very spooky stuff.

their brothers

DJB: But

there are other explanations besides reincarnation.

tapping into

some kind of field

or genetic

73

memory,

for example.

They could be

— Nick Herbert

NICK: Oh. is

capable

ideas.

1

yes. definitely. But

of,

would

certainly stretches your idea of

it

DO matter what explanation you have. So not believe in that ordinarily.

my

individuality dies with

I

was

I

what the mind

may have

my my

to revise

perfectly willing to say that

body. There might be a large mind that goes on, but

—

mind probably dies with the body the memories and that sort of what would have said before reading this book. had always dismissed reincarnation as wrong. But Stevenson's book is very persuasive. He describes just twenty cases, but he has six hundred cases of more or less validity. And, of course, if any one of those cases is true, it would invalidate the notion that this

small

thing. That's

I

I

consciousness dies with the body.

RMN: You have described quantum theory as a theory of possibilities, and have emphasized mind,

in

that

it

constrains not just Appearances, but Reality

which ways do you

feel that the

and structures

affect the barriers

in

itself.

With

this in

understanding of the quantum world can

human

experience, which act to limit the

enjoyment of these possibilities?

NICK: Oh! The that area this

Pleasure

way.

It's to

Dome

Yeah,

Project.

an inner space, and that for

some

reason,

some

is

.someday we 11 be able to go outside our own little

But there's

non-human

We

surf.

areas of mind.

this

is

which we could basically

do play with

a

little bit

of

it

It's like

each

we're

and we could go out into the ocean. That's the quantum physics suggests to me. That someday we'll be go outside our own little bays, and go out into the great ocean of mind.

RMN: And

little

I

tiny bay,

think, that

voyage

the

Yes, surfing

possible spaces, the

quantum

which

possibilities are

spoken

is

There

something

But an insulator has a

completely

full

for, the insulator

and does not conduct

is

in

quantum theory all

the

and position spaces, that electrons can occupy.

a free surface.

Fermi sea of possibilities

sea.

the area of possibilities for electrons,

is

momentum

metal's Fermi sea has

uncertainty, that sounds nice.

quantum

in the

called the Fermi sea,

inert,

cave

To me, quantum

could probably expand the area of possibility further.

living in a possibility,

NICK:

little

this vast area that

physics suggests this— that there potentia out there

able to

feelings in that there is

with other caves? and even going int0 othcr

and go out into the

we

—

we could explore? including telepathic union

great ocean of mind.

day, but

my

restricted to this tiny

in inner space.

.

bays,

would sum up

accident of biology and evolution,

each of us .

I

take the metaphor of inner space seriously

electricity.

all

has no

the

new

on

its

surface so

to the top.

options.

But metals have 74

lid

way

lots

It

Since

A its

all

just sits there,

of live possibilities

Nick Herbert

open

to

them

—

So

all sorts

Fermi

sea.

not

related to this

is

wave motion can occur on

of

the reason that

copper conducts

quantum

the surface of a metal's

and polyethylene does

electricity

made up of

picture of matter being

vibratory

possibilities.

Metals conduct because their electrons possess Insulators can be

called

made

—introducing

lots

conduct by "doping" them

certain impurities into the insulator

of electron possibility.

quantum

to

Now,

if

consciousness

possibility then that's

one way

consciousness, of getting out of our

I

is

caves.

what

that's

it's

which widen the realm

somehow also

see of going

little

of open possibilities.

—Yes

—

a

consequence of

the literal expansion of

And somehow

I

think that

quantum physics ought to help us do that. If we really did find a connection between mind and matter, and this was a quantum connection, then we'd find some way to get out of our caves, and hop into the ocean.

DJB:

Nick, you do a column for

explain

why you

Mondo 2000 on

think this subject

is

"Fringe Science."

Can you

important.

NICK: I worked awhile in Silicon Valley doing research, and we had a lot of talks there about what real research was. How could we build an environment that would encourage research? What they really wanted there was an environment that would encourage short-term, profit-making research. They didn't want a real environment for research. What I think a research environment should do is protect people for a while from practical life, from the day-to-day worries of making a living. It should also allow people to be wrong, so, you see, you're protected from the consequences of your thoughts too, and you don't have to worry. You can play around.

A real playground, that's

it,

a giant playground, for a while.

Universities and industrial research labs should ideally provide this.

They

should provide playgrounds where people can mess around, without suffering the

consequences of

their

messing around. But they don't do

this in general. In

general they're very timid places. People will follow fashion and profits. industrial labs don't follow fashion so all

the time.

You

aren't

So you're looking around and doing. So fringe science is people

gotta keep something going.

seeing what's hot, what the guys next door are

who who

The

much as universities, but you gotta publish

bound by university and

are out there, for their

own

industrial constraints. They're just people

reasons, and these people

our next evolutionary jump. The people

who

may

really

be a key to

are just out there possessed by, for

whatever reason, some quirky notions of their own.

To my mind one

of the quintessinal fringe scientists

is

a

guy named Jim

San Luis Obispo. He was a professor at Cal Poly for many years, and he worked at Rand Corporation for a while, so he worked for both the government and the educational establishment. But his real goal has been to Culbertson

work out

in

a theory of consciousness.

He wrote 75

a

book

in the sixties called

The

Nick Herbert

Minds of Robots, and he wonders how one could make robots

He has

inner experience, just like us.

and he's obviously been working on

relativity,

not listening to anybody, just off

work

of

—

We

I

much

would

on

own

his

need more of these people,

like to

and years and years,

this for years

little

would have based on special that

obsession.

It's a

out there, not connected with anything.

just totally

partially right. trip.

this elaborate theory

beautiful kind

And

like Culbertson, off

consider myself a fringe scientist, but

I

it

on

may be own

their

think even I'm too

my colleagues are doing. Although try, my peers, by the prevailing fashions of the

affected by fashion, and by what

I'm contaminated by the opinions of

I

avant garde.

DJB: Well, though

there's something to be said for networking with other people

—

NICK:

cross-fertilizing

Yes,

important to have colleagues, but you have to

it's

independence. There's

One

have to keep. the

and sharing ideas.

balance between contact and independence that you

this

of the ways that

I

currently

manage

woods, and by not being connected with any

ones

that

we

We've had something going

set up.

to

down

RMN:

Einstein spent his

scientists are

time before

it

life

working towards is

by living out

the

same

thing.

how do you

in

Theory

in the early seventies to

We would

this elusive

go anywhere,

Do you

talk to

problem.

searching for a unified field theory, and

discovered, and

unified field will effect

this is

called the Consciousness

the roots of consciousness.

anybody, or do anything to find out more about

do

institutions, except these private

Group, which Saul Paul-Sirag and a few others started ruthlessly track

somehow keep your

think

it's just a

many

matter

oi'

think that the understanding of the

human consciousness?

NICK: As mentioned before, I

I

think we're close to that.

It

wouldn't surprise

me

next couple of years. Somehow this we have a picture of the world that was more compact. It wouldn't take so much talk to describe what the world was Right now there are four different kinds oi' forces, made of. You could simplify if

the unified field

might

were discovered

just succeed.

It

would mean

in the

that

it.

and there are

come

a

hundred and some different elementary

two

particles.

However, they

The classes themselves are quarks and leptons basically, and the force particles. What we would be able to say then is that there is would be a just one kind of entity, and everything follows from that. So, don't know any practical definite economy of description. But what else? still

in

classes.

it

I

applications of just say it's just just

this,

but

made

it'd

of this

be definitely easy to describe the world.

one kind

various manifestations of this one

of stuff,

and

that's all

kind of stuff.

76

You could

—everything

else

is

Nick Herbert

DJB: Would

NICK:

make any new

it

technologies possible?

Probably not right away. This

consciousness out in the cold.

It's

funny

doing alchemy and ceremonial magic

— one had —

back

that

in

—thought of

felt that

tions

or the reaction wouldn't work.

and mental stuff were .

.

mind. So

A

some

at

independent of

forget about the mind,

together in j A A, point in the develop-

,

.

how you and

to the

cosmos

—

it

let's

all

that

•

,

,

.

^

& .

.

.

science as though the

minaaian

t

matter.

think. Let's

see what

physics

we could do with this hypothesis." And, the elementary particles all the way

—from

doesn't seem to matter. There seems to be a lot you can do

without bringing the mind into

Now, my

M SQme

r development of J science. . ,, r . j ^ , scientists said "Le'sdo

all .

.

amazingly enough, with

up

as the predecesors of sci-

sort

It

ment of science, scientists said, "Let's do science as though the mind didn't matter. Let's see how much science we could do that's

leave

—

be in

^ ^

their

still

the

of mixed up the notion that chemistry, physics,

would

It

the Medieval days people

mind was connected with what they did. They thought that you had to say prayers and incantathe right state of mind

ence

to

very impractical.

is all

it.

Seemingly.

we've missed most of the world. That all the stuff physicists can explain is just a tiny amount of the real world, because there is fantasy

is that

a real world that physics

is

a minute part of. But, because of a certain illusion that

we have, it looks as though there's an awful lot of matter around here, and not much mind. Mind is confined to little tiny elements in certain mammalian heads. But there's a

of matter, there's galaxies and quarks, and everything

all

around,

much mind. One of my guesses is that's totally wrong. There's mind, at least as much as there is matter, and we just aren't aware of it. I

a lot of

lot

but not

that physics is just a

DJB: This

suspect

very tiny part of that world.

really ties in with the next question.

as being alive, evolving,

and conscious, and

opinion, have any influence on

how

Do you see the physical universe

if so,

does

this perspective, in

your

physicists approach the natural world?

NICK: It does fit right in. Up to now physics has, I think as a kind of exercise, asked how much can we explain about the world without ever bringing consciousness into

it?

Surprisingly, the answer

is

a lot!

Suppose there were chemical would

reactions that needed to be prayed over before they worked, then physics

have

to say

Anything

we

can't explain these reactions, because that involves the mind.

where intention is important for its outcome, is we have to call that something else. Either or expand the notion of what physics is once the mind begins becoming that involves intention,

outside of physics, by definition. So, that,

involved with the world.

What

—

I'd like to see are hybrid types of experiments. 77

v

Herbert

I

Experiments where the mind kind

o\

a

RMN:

necessary, and where matter

mixing Of physics and psychology. But

I

don't

maybe psychokinesis experiments, and

experiments, except liable. It's

is

is

also necessary,

know

of any such

those are very unre-

hard to get data.

The mind

is

a

very unreliable thing. That's probably

why

physicists have

do with the mind.

nothing

to

NICK:

Yeah, unreliable, that's one

DJB: What

way

of looking

possibilities for faster-than-light

greatest potential for actualization,

and

at

it.

and time travel do you

how do you

feel offer the

feel this will effect

human

consciousness

in the future?

NICK:

think that there are about half a dozen options for faster-than-light

Well,

I

two I would bet on are the space-warp, and the quantum connecThe former is based upon the ability to warp Einsteinian space-time. You can make short cuts in space-time, and essentially travel faster than light. We don't know how to do this yet, but the equations of general relativity allow it. So, travel, but the tion.

it's

not forbidden by physics.

We may have to use black holes or something like

tongs made out of black holes. It would take that kind of thing. Interestingly, when my book Faster Than Light came out in November of 1988, the same week it came out, there was a paper by three guys from CalTech in the journal Physical Review Letters. The article was about a way to make a time machine, using

warped space-time. It was actual instructions on how to do it. We can't do it yet but here's, in principle, how to do it. There are these quantum worm holes coming out of the quantum vacuum. They're little connections between distant places in space-

—

time. They're not so distant actually, as the distances involved are smaller than

atomic dimensions. So you have to find out

make them connect detail.

These

worm

larger

than

it

how

to

expand these

distant parts of space

worm

and time. But

holes, to that's a

coming out of the quantum vacuum, unstable. Even if you could go into one o\

holes are continually

popping back these,

more

in again, and they're would close up before you could transverse

it,

unless you could go taster

light.

So. the argument

way you do

that is

negative energy.

impossible

\\

was about how to stabilize quantum worm holes. The to have some energy that's less than nothing, some is less than the vacuum. In classical physics that would be

you have hich

—energy

that's less than nothing.

Every tune von do something you

always have positive energy. But there's something called the C'asimer force in quantum physics, which is an example of negative energy. So you thread these

worm

holes with this negative energy, and 78

it

props them open. So then you can

Nick Herbert

use these things as time tunnels.

This

was prompted by Carl Sagan's book Contact. Sagan got in who were experts on gravity, and asked if there was he needed to know, because in his book Contact there were tunnels

article

touch with these physicists, anything that

go

that

to the star

tunnel, and a as

Vega

is

Vega,

I

few seconds

some

believe. later

You

sit

in this chair,

tens of light years away.

So these

tunnel technology. Carl Sagan asked these guys

"Well, we'll think about

how one might where science

DJB:

it."

you go through

time

this

you're in Vega. That's definitely faster than

light,

aliens have mastered this time

if this

was possible, and they

said

So they came up with this actual scientific paper on

really build a time tunnel, like Carl Sagan's.

So here's

a situation

fiction inspired science.

Isn't that the case a lot, actually?

NICK: Ah, not really. I guess there are some things. Of course Jules Verne wrote about trips to the moon long before before we went.

RMN: Maybe a lot of people become scientists, would just imagine they were young.

DJB:

I

NICK: Still

I

certainly did.

do. But

fiction

I

don't

I

that

read a

many

lot

had read science

of science fiction

know about

—where someone reads

scientists

after reading science fiction.

when I was young. I loved

coming from science

specific inventions

light-travel, aside

connection.

I

one

influ-

time machine. The other possibility for faster than

from using space warps, would be

don't think

is

—

—

at least in principal, a

it.

a science fiction book, and then goes out and

works on that particular idea. I think the influence is more general. But this example where a specific science fiction story Carl Sagan's Contact enced,

when

fiction

we can send

to

somehow

anything concrete

this

use this Bell

way, but maybe

information or mental influences could go between minds faster- than-light. But, unlike these three CalTech people, there's no demonstration of how one could do that.

I

spent about three or four years trying to use Bell's connection to send

signals faster than light, using thought experiments and such, and every

them has

failed.

It

looks as though this Bell connection

is

something

one of

that nature

uses to further her nefarious ends, but people can't use the Bell connection.

RMN: How would NICK: Wouldn't Ah... lot

I

you

that

test the results

of a time travel experiment?

If you wanted to send something back in time... would have already happened, wouldn't it? Well, a it experiments depend on what your opinion of the past is. Is

be easy?

guess, you're right,

of these time travel

79

Nidi Herbert

always the same, or

the past

good question. That

is

changeable? Are there alternate universes?

it

It's

depends on your model of the past. If the past is not a changeable, then you cant go back in time, or you already have, and you're the results oi

it.

One

really

my best guesses is that

oi

are things there that are frozen, that

up for grabs,

that are

on your

activities,

the

quantum

partially

changeable

—

there

potentia, and those things

to

you

you could have some funny

there

and basically you could only make changes

were consistent with what we already know present. There's a lot that

is

you can't change, and there are other things

still in

when you went back

could change. So, restrictions

that are

the past

have happened here.

that

We have this

we know has happened. There's lots of things we didn't

nobody knows whether they happened or not. Those things you could change. But you couldn't change something that some human being knew had happened already. care about, and

DJB: As long

NICK:

as

it's

an ambiguity, and hasn't become a actuality.

Yes, as long as

DJB: Why do you

it

think

hasn't

it

NICK: God, who knows? think. Einstein said

become an

that

is

actuality

you could change

it.

time appears to flow in one direction only?

That's a good question.

something about

how

It's

a psychological reason

I

the past and the future are illusions.

Physics makes no distinction between past

Mmc

and

Physics makes no distincHon between past and

-

Tbs P resent doesn

space-time,

s all just a

it

verse that's eternal. So, the fact that time

seems anything

in physics. It's

rise to.

illusion.

to

flow

is

a kind of illusion that our

an illusion of consciousness rather than

It's

that if we didn't know any better, if we just took the we wouldn't even know about this flow of time, this

funny

equations of physics as truth,

The universe would seem

to

be a kind of eternal, ever-present process.

RMN: You have asked, "Why does nature need to deploy atomic

reality to

keep up merely

you venture an answer

NICK:

to

That's the idea

your

that,

light

own

a faster than light sub-

speed macroscopic appearances." Could

question?

although Bell's theorem says oi Reality that once

things are together they are always connected faster than light. Appearance

not.

much

huge block uni-

*

kind of existence gives

is

have an y

t

special status in physics. In four-dimensional

-

**

some

'

You

don't ever see anything like

this.

Why

does nature bother

trouble? Underground connecting everything, and

not connected.

Why

bother'?

Sounds

a 90

little

bit

like

yet

to

go

to so

above ground

God, doesn't

it?

it's

This

Nick Herbert

omniscient entity lying behind the phenomena that keeps providence, so that nothing gets

why

lost.

don't know. That's

I

kind of divine

its

still

a puzzle to

me,

I would not like to believe in an omniscient divine providence, seems such an easy solution. I've been spoiled by learning about quantum physics. One of the things that philosophers try and do, is they guess what all the possibilities are for human thought. Try and second guess all thinkable things. Philosophers worry about different categories of mind, monism and dualism, and varieties of that, all the possible ways something could be. People have been doing that for a long time, but they never came up with something as weird as quantum theory. Physicists didn't like quantum theory at first either. We were forced into this strange way of thinking about the universe by the facts, into a way that had not been anticipated by the philosophers. Quantum theory is a strange mixture of waveness and particleness that no one had ever anticipated, and that we still do not completely comprehend.

that

because

DJB:

is.

it

Isn't

it

similar to

what Eastern philosophies have

NICK: Oh,

in

particles has

never been present in any East-

to say

about the world?

some sense, but not in particulars. There's a vague similarity to Eastern philosophy, more than to Western philosophy, that's true. But this notion of probabilistic waves changing into actual

.quantum mechanics waS just a kindergarten # #

emphilosophy.Easternphilosophytalksabout connectedness, everything being connected.

,

Tao, that's unspeakable,

.

It

talks about the

flavor of that

is

no doubt about nistic

like

quantum

that.

More

t

&

wholeness that envelops everything, and the

f h u

jl

t

.

our minds

theory. There's

>

to

i

make

u the

next Step.

so than a mecha-

clock-work universe. But the details

no one ever anticipated

my

that kind of universe. So,

a fuller picture of the world,

it

guess

is that,

will be equally unguessable.

It

when we

get

would not have

been anticipated, and quantum mechanics was just a kindergarten lesson for how we're going to have to change our minds to make the next step.

DJB:

It

NICK: are

wouldn't be fun without surprises. Well, yeah, not only surprises, but that

always going to be, too timid. Nature

us with the next step. Nothing actually there.

we

is

all

our guesses have got to be, and

going

to

overwhelm

us,

and surprise

could imagine will be as amazing as what's

So whenever someone comes up with

there's a divine providence underneath

it

all, it's

something more complex and marvelous than 81

a simple solution like

too simple. Try and imagine

that, please.

Nick Herbert

DJB:

mv

Nick, one of

may

notion that time travel

only so

only be possible into the future and back into the past,

development of the

tar as to the

your book Faster Than Light was the

favorite ideas in

monumental day

that e\

eryone from the

NICK:

space-time

is

open

DJB: What would

NICK: than that

it

I

is

From

it

would be like. It would be very crowded would be very confusing, when all of

that point on, life

our view.

to

do

that

human consciousness? How would

to

would be very confusing. Much more confusing with it, though. What it would be like, partly, is be another kind of space, if you can imagine that. We don't

don't know.

I

think

it

live

think that traveling back and forth in space

we I

have

to pass

on

faster than light, time

that one.

and space,

This reversal happens

same time/space

in the

so strange.

So

if

We have this prejudice

time becomes another kind of

don't know.

I

It's really

Another problem related light.

I

hard to think

to that is

when you go

The

roles of time

in the equations, they reverse.

and space reverse when you go faster than

RMN:

is

shouldn't be able to do that in time.

space, what are the consequences of that? about.

the progression

could people keep track of things?

now. We'd learn to

time would just

that

envision

when the first time machine is invented, and comes back to visit the historic day?

far future

How

of events occur?

itself,

to take a

If

to occur,

Big party. Sure, that's what

that particular day.

we were how do you

time machine.

first

leap of faith, and imagine this scenario to actualize

know what

don't

that

means.

math but what would happen in the world? This by the way, in the vicinity of black holes.

reversal happens,

What about time

paradoxes? Like the case of being able

travel

to travel

backwards through time to kill your grandmother. The seems to resolve this, but what are your views on this?

parallel universe theory

NICK:

have a

Yes, the easiest

where you

kill

way

this notion

past,

bom I

would be

to

parallel universe.

your grandmother, but she's not your grandmother, she's the

grandmother of somebody doesn't get

to resolve that

else,

in that parallel

much like you, who way of resolving that paradox, is

who would have

looked very

universe. Another

mentioned before about there being fixed things and

and you can only change the

soft things.

So

soft things in the

that things that are fixed like

grandmother's existence, you'd find _

.

My

f

,

guess is that when you went back in time, it would he like in a dream. . .

^^ ^ -

couldn't change.

m

whcrc If

you

thcrc tricd

the past, 82

Mv .

guess

wcrc ccrtain

t()

d()

is

that

your

you

when you

mm

^

)M bc

that

V(H1

a

drcam

could do

somc thing that would change

you couldn't move

that

way. You

Nick Herbert

could only

you'd find that that

RMN: NICK:

make

would be like being in molasses. In certain ways it very easy to move, and others you just couldn't do, because it would be certain

moves.

It

had already been definitively done.

It

had been

Yes,

it

filled up.

would be

filled up.

That had already been done. So there are

islands of reality in the past, but they float in a sea of possibility. that's original is in

with me, that solution to time travel paradoxes. The place to look

DJB: What

NICK:

are

that.

some of the

best ones?

Well, the most popular

of them. Another

is that

is

with alternative universes. Science fiction's

you can

ied viewpoint in the past,

change

all that, it's like

change the

DJB: What do you

NICK:

and you can't act

at all.

watching a movie. But

future. That's a pretty

but can't change it. You can You just become a disembod-

visit the past,

only change the future through your time machine.

good one

I

There's nothing you can do to

if

you go

think, but

I

to the future,

you can

wouldn't bet on

it.

think lies in the center of a black hole?

Well, there's supposed to be the dreaded singularity there, where space

warped. Talk about warped

and time are

infinitely

warped

and nothing, not even

there,

we know

it

light,

would be crushed to a mathematical point. is a bad trip. Some physicists claim

would intervene before though everything

is

of a black hole.

No one knows what

NICK:

related to us getting out of our

it's

way

little

looks as

at the

center

human

relations.

What

caves, and into the open ocean.

Theorem

and one of the preoccupations of voodoo

other people love you, and to break up a couple

members of

that. It

of exploiting and enjoying Bell's Theorem, of actually

bringing the Bell connection into being. Bell's like connection,

quantum mechanics

proved

say that quantum tantra could revolutionize

as a

bad news. The center

goes on.

this?

it

that

crushed out of existence. Physics ends

do you mean by Well,

is infinitely

just crushed to this infinite density, including time itself.

itself are just

RMN: You

everything

It's

that happens, but they haven't

Time and space

envision

—

escapes. All physics stops. Matter as

of a black hole

I

number of

science fiction, for solutions to time travel paradoxes. There are a

very original solutions to

full

As far as I know,

the pair. So, these

love charms

where you'd

making and breaking 83

talks about this is

like to love

spells are

what

voodoo-

—

to

make

one of the I

envision

— Nick Herbert

quantum

(antra to be

— love charms

that

that

would

physics. Some kind of medium you could plunge into,

work because of

thing you OOUld do, object you could exchange, or either connect you, correlate you,

unconnect you, or anti-correlate you.

There are Hell connections where you have opposite correlations.

and Bell anti-correlations

unlike, rather than alike. There are these Bell correlations

Bickering

which

is

level of

in the

world of particle physics. They eternally hold the world together,

the basis of

human

all

chemical bonds. So one could imagine these occuring

beings. So, that's what

exploiting the Bell connection on the idea

They make you

how one would go about doing

DJB: Could you

tell

I

imagine quantum tantra

human

that. Just

level.

But

I

to be, a

at the

way

of

don't have the slightest

guesses.

us about your plans for a "Pleasure

Dome" project, and how

do you see the future science of pleasure advancing? What new forms of pleasure do you forsee for our future?

NICK:

some would

Well, of course,

with another

human

being,

at

quantum

find

Pleasure Dome Protect is an idea to use fundamental physics. .for the pursuit of happiness.

The

— union —although the

would find it horrible. So The Pleasure Dome Project

others

it

would be

both.

is

an idea to

use fundamental physics to increase pleasure for the

P ursuit of happiness-to put the pur-

sui ' of

P leasure on a firm scien,ifi c basis u amateur ways we ve pur-

.

is

'

,

rather than in the

sued

and enhancement of the senses

tantra pleasurable

the quantum-mental level of existence

it

so far as individuals. Amplification

probably the easiest

way to do it.

Find out

how our

senses work, and just increase that process.

Greg Keith about the pleasure dome project as we were walking down here along the San Lorenzo River, and noticed that there's a pleasure research facility here on the beach the Santa Cruz Beach Boardwalk. Places like that offer clues to the nature of pleasure. What happens here at the Beach Boardwalk? People get scared out of their life in safe environments. So, this must partly be what pleasure is. To be scared, but to really be safe. To be frightened, but secure. So we have to look about for new ways of doing that scaring the hell out of people, but making them secure at the same time. So think, but ultimately sate. there'll be some scary rides at The Pleasure Dome, I

was

talking with

—

1

RMN:

Could you

NICK: Oh.

that's

tell

us a

one of

little bit

my

about telesensation?

favorites. Tclesensation

new body image by building robots through radio or optics

of various kinds,

— and taking on

image of a human robot, or

a robot that's

their

the idea of achieving a

and linking with them

body image. Taking on

shaped

84

is

like a fish,

the

body

an eagle, or a bat, and

Nick Herbert

just

being that entity for awhile

—

taking on their

and sensing with

trip,

their

senses, with an ant or an eagle's sense.

RMN: NICK:

It'd

be great for ecology.

Great for ecology yes!

DJB: Are you

familiar with Jaron Lanier's work, building Virtual Reality

VPL

Research up

NICK: Oh,

no,

don't

research, but

I

simulators

at

I

don't

in

Palo Alto?

know about this. I've heard rumors of this kind of know anyone who's actually doing it. There have been some

science fiction stories about telesensation, where

on the surface of planets orbit

like Jupiter. In

it's

one story

I

used to develop or do work

recall the

man

is

actually in

around Jupiter, but he feels as though he's on the surface of Jupiter,

in a

gravity of 30 Gs, or something like that, and doing mining work.

DJB: The Japanese have

NICK:

actually already developed something like that.

Is that right?

DJB: Yeah, it's written up in Grant Fjermedal's The Tomorrow Makers. Grant talks about the out-of-body experience he had using one of these machines, while

body from a convincing three-dimensional perspective outside of it.

looking

at his

NICK:

Well, one of the things

separate from the body,

I

wonder about

how come

is this

—

if

consciousness really

is

there are cases of multiple personalities

—

where many personalities inhabit one body but there's never the case of one personality inhabiting two bodies where you look out of somebody else's eyes, or out of two people's eyes at the same time? If consciousness were really distinct from the body, you might think that would be at least a possibility.

—

DJB: Some people claim

NICK: They've

that,

though.

looked out of other people's eyes?

DJB: Some people claim

that they've

formed a unification between

their con-

sciousness and that of another person.

RMN: NICK:

Usually a couple.

Well,

if

I

couldn't see something, but because 85

I

was

in this state, then

I

Nidi Herbert

could.

If

actually happened, then I'd be impressed.

that

would allow us

quantum quantum

(antra

impressh

e ability

this,

TV

mirror

I

RMN:

I

would think

this.

That would be one of the

TV

facing

away from

it.

with your back to the television.

You can do

to

that

of

tests

Not

There might be other, more interesting things

is it?

than watching

do

watch

(antra, the ability to .

to

a very

do with

that

with a

guess, without the threat to your integrity.

The penultimate

question.

with which to contact the dead.

I

hear you've been working with technology

Can you

tell

us about your ideas and experiences

concerning this?

NICK:

This

is

quantum processes

a notion that

are

somehow connected

with

some quantum processes are unspoken for, and can be taken over by discarnate spirits. So what we do is, we get these quantum processes, and link them to communicating devices. Then we encourage spirits to inhabit the consciousness, that

processes and speak to us through quantum mechanical mediums.

occupy brains, why can't they occupy these machines? So tried to

make machines

that discarnate spirits

If the

dead can

in the seventies

we

could inhabit. These involved

were connected with typewriters or with speech synthesizers. So, when we turned the machine on, it would rapidly type pseudo-English, or make sounds which one observer said sounded like a Hungarian reading Finnigan's Wake. I don't think our devices radioactive sources connected with computers, and they

were complicated enough

RMN: NICK: that,

or

RMN: NICK:

to

be occupied by

spirits.

Complicated enough? Complicated. Like they were maybe the brain of an

maybe even It

it

was

something

like

smaller.

was just too

Yes,

ant,

basic.

just too basic a system.

What we would want

is a

more

complicated quantum system.

RMN:

But you were getting something.

some funny prankish things that occured. The most exciting Houdini seance, when we spent all day trying to get Houdini to come back from the dead through our typewriter. This was on the hundredth was in San Francisco. We had Houdini posters up anniversary of his birth, and

NICK: Oh, we

got

thing happened

at a

it

on the walls.

We

held seances

typewriter chatting

away

all

in the

the time

—

dark, joined hands, and a

metaphase

v,

lit

typewriter this

candles, the

was

called.

A

Nick Herbert

couple of people dropped acid for the event.

We

went through the

text

couldn't find any real printing, any real message, but the one thing that find that It

happened for

sure,

was

didn't print straight, so there

and they made in the oval,

something

beginning

—

lines of type

a little frame, a little oval, that

like that.

Now

that

did

the typewriter jammed.

going

wasn't typed

and it said, "In an infinite time." All with no spaces

in.

—

all

over the place,

There was one

line

"maninflnitetime''

message could be taken many ways.

A

million

a typewriter could type anything in an infinite time.

An

time could be meaning to talk to us, a busy signal, that kind of thing.

The

monkeys typing on infinite

right at the

were these

and

we

ultimate busy signal. In any case,

it

convinced

me

really about the funniest thing that

that the universe has a sense of

humor.

It's

could have been said in a few words. But

nothing else seemed to occur that particular day.

We

had pounds of stuff

go through. Actually, this page was lost. Afterwards, we'd all saw it, but people had taken some of the pages for souvenirs, and I guess somebody got that one, and we never found out where that page ended up. So it's another one of those experiments that Jhe umvers^ has

few t a

machine.

think of aspects of

nature as being machine-like, but this doesn't

explain them. Nature isn't a machine. like in

machines

some

in certain respects.

You and I are not machines. We may be may be like pumps, and our brains,

hearts

sense, like computers.

Mechanistic theory that

Our

you can look

at

is

some

providing machine analogies for nature, and

it's

true

aspects of organisms in this machine-like way. But in

other important respects, nature in general, and organisms in particular, are not

machines or machine-like. So, what I'm suggesting is

alright as far as

it

goes.

Its

positive content

is

is

that the mechanistic theory

alright

when

it

tells

us about the

physics of nerve impulses, or the chemistry of enzymes; that's fine, this information, and If

it

is

says that

think

it's

assuming

life is

—and

nothing but things that can be explained in terms of

this is

wrong, because it's

useful

part of the picture.

regular ordinary physics, that already exist in physics textbooks,

nothing but that

is

it's

if

it

says

what most mechanistic biologists do say too limited.

the whole. It's a half-truth. 145

It's

life is

—then

I

taking a part of the picture, and

— Rupcri Sheldrake

RMN:Yotl've incorporated

that into

your theory, and just taken

it

to another

level...?

RUPERT:

Yes. There are

I'm talking about; are

still

process are

it's

isn't still there is the

there

is.

you want

building. If

well

all

enzymes and nerve impulses

to

To

assumption

take an analogy,

kind of world

in the

the things that are in regular biochemistry

all

What

there.

still

and biophysics

that these aspects of the

it's like

trying to understand a

understand a building, one level of looking

made of wood and

at

to say,

is

it

other things, metal and frames, and so on.

And

then

you can say we can measure, we can analyze the wood and other components. You can find out exactly what chemicals are in the wood, the exact molecular composition, the exact constituents of the whole building. But when

up or break it down to analyze the parts, the form of the building, the room, the plan disappears when you're analyzing the constituespecially if you have to knock it down to do that. And usually to analyze

you grind

it

structure of the ents,

the chemical constituents within an organism, first

So

the plan of the building

the building, the form.

form or

its

is

And

you have

also part of the building,

it's

to kill

and destroy

it.

the formative aspect of

you'll never understand the plan of a building,

its

function for that matter, just by analyzing the constituents. Although

without the constituents, the

DJB: What

wood and

stuff,

you can't have a building.

are the implications of the theory of formative causation?

hypothetical morphic fields affect things like the sciences, the

How

do

technologies,

arts,

and social structures?

RUPERT: the Past

Well, I've written an entire book on this subject

—so

it's difficult to

answer

it

extremely briefly. But,

The Presence of first

of

all,

it

chemistry.

It

gives a

new understanding

being organized by morphic structure, in terms of

morphic

fields. fields,

It

gives a

new understanding of

organized by a

field.

group memory

— and

also,

human

it

leads to the idea of a collective

very like Jung's idea of the collective it

And

gives rise to the idea that the whole

that that field is not just

structure in the present, but also contains a past, a

I

memory.

is

unconscious. In terms of social groups, is

social

and cultural forms, and ideas. All of these

In the human realm, for example, memory on which we all draw, which

group

in

of instincts and behavioral patterns, as

see as patterns organized by these fields with an inherent

social

gives

and

a completely different understanding of formative processes in biology

memory

an organizing

of that social group

through morphic resonance, a

memory

in the

of other

similar social groups that have existed before.

So, a football team, for example, will tune into

146

its

own

field in the past.

The

Rupert Sheldrake

individual players

on

the football

team

will be coordinated not just

each other, but by a kind of group mind that will be working

going around.

morphic

And

this will in turn

by observing

when

game's

the

have as a kind of background resonance the

fields of other similar football teams.

RMN: On

the

one hand

reassuring that a certain pattern or order

is

it

maintained, and yet options must be available for change function effectively. In what

ways does

if that

is

being

pattern ceases to

nature supply the necessary conditions

for this balance of repeatability

and novelty?

RUPERT:

not in a steady state; there's an ongoing creative

Well, the universe

principle in nature, this is the

the

which

is

is

driving things onwards. Cosmologically speaking,

expansion of the universe.

moment of

Big Bang,

the

universe had been in a steady state

If the

be

it'd still

at billions

wouldn't be here. The reason we're here

is

at

We

of degrees centigrade.

because the Big Bang involved a

movement of expansion of the whole cooled down, and virtually created more space for new

colossal explosion, an outward

universe,

such that

things to

it

And

happen.

in the

ongoing evolutionary process, there's a constant destabiliza-

tion of what's there through the fact that the universe is not in equilibrium.

This ongoing process in the whole of nature in patterns,

itself

and prevent things just stopping where they were.

tends to break up old

You see it in the history

of the earth, the ongoing evolutionary process, through the catastrophic changes that

have happened

to the earth

through the impact of asteroids and so on.

The cumulative nature of the evolutionary process, the fact that memory is preserved, means that life grows not just through a random proliferation of new forms, but there's a kind of cumulative quality.

You

start

with single-celled

organisms, and you end with complex multi-cellular ones, like there are today.

New species arise usually when new opportunities appear, and the biggest bursts of speciation that

we know

about in the history of the earth are soon after great

cataclysms, like the extinction of the dinosaurs, which create

and

all

sorts of

new forms

new

opportunities,

spring up. Thereafter they tend to be fairly stable. So,

depend on accidents or disasters

quite often, the reasons for creativity

that

prevent the normal habits being carried out.

RMN: When

a

system

hits

an evolutionary dead end, an organism becomes

extinct or an object obsolete.

What happens

to its field?

Does

it

kind of just

breakup and merge with other similar fields?

RUPERT:

Well,

I

think in a sense the ghosts of dead species

haunting the world, that the fields of the dinosaurs would

you could tune into them. you could get them back again. I think

present

...

if

If a

still

be

be potentially

dinosaur egg could be reconstituted,

that in the course 147

still

would

of evolution these past

Rupert ShclJriikt-

tonus do indeed reappear. They're known

in the biological literature as

atavisms,

which the forms, or patterns, or behaviors of extinct species living ones. Like babies being born with tails.

the process In

reappear

in

DJB: Or

parallel evolution?

RUPERT:

Well, parallel evolution would involve a similar process, but what

I'm talking about

is

the influence of extinct species traveling across time and

these features reappearing. Parallel evolution features of

some

somewhere

else like, for

would be where you have

the

species traveling across space, and similar patterns evolving

example, the evolution of forms among marsupials

Australia that parallel those of placental

mammals

in

elsewhere.

DJB: You said before that there could be a sort of collective memory, and you was analogous to Jung's notion of the collective unconscious. Do you

said that

think

possible then that morphic fields are, or can be, actually conscious?

it's

RUPERT:

don't think that morphic fields are conscious.

I

aspects of morphic fields could

become conscious

in

human

I

the underlying patterns of mental activity that are ideas, thoughts, etc.,

our morphic

fields.

I

think they

become conscious

in us.

some

think that

I

beings.

think that

depend on

But most of the

most of our habits, and most of the habits of nature, I think, are unconscious, and most of nature, I think, works much more like our unconscious minds than like our conscious minds. And after all, 90%, maybe 99%, of our own activity is unconscious. We don't need to assume that the kind of unconscious memories that we ourselves have are any different from the rest

collective unconscious,

of nature.

We all

of the

needn't assume that just because

memory

we have some

of nature must be conscious. In

fact,

conscious memories,

most of our memories

are

unconscious, as are most of our habits, like the habit of speaking English, for

example, the way one speaks, one's mannerisms, one's accent, or the habit of driving a car.

When you

drive a car, you don't have to be conscious of every

muscular movement, or everything you're doing. Those habits unfold spontaneously.

And

the

more deep-seated biological

bodies, and our heartbeat, and the

unconscious

DJB:

In

memories

to

most of

guts our working are completely

us.

your book The Presence of the Past you offer the suggestion that are not actually stored in the brain, but rather they may be stored in an

information

field that

do you believe then of self,

way our

habits, like the functioning of our

may

can be accessed by the brain.

that

If this

should prove to be

human consciousness, our personal memories and some form?

survive biological death in

148

true,

sense

Rupert Sheldrake

RUPERT: the

way

Well, certainly the idea that memories aren't stored in the brain opens

for a

new

new perspective on the question of survival

debate or

Most people assume memories the brain, simply because this

are stored in

^ ^ ^ ^ ^^

mecha-

the

is

; ^

paradigm

nistic

There age

that's very rarely challenged.

A

in the brain, as

f

could be interpreted

is

tern,

tuning into

its

into our

own

own past. So that we can own memories by tuning The

past states.

brain

is

more

r

question of survival of death.

better in terms of the brain as a tuning sys-

gain access to our

fa

^

,

brain opens the way JJtor r a new debate... on the

I

what evidence there

memQm

Jhe idea ,

hardly any evidence for memory stor^ w • i u u i and show in my book,

s

of death.

like a

TV

receiver than like a tape

recorder or a video recorder. If

memories

are stored in the brain then there's

no

possibility of conscious,

memories are in the and your memories must be wiped out through

or even unconscious survival of bodily death, because brain, the brain

the

decays

decay of the brain.

at

death,

No

form of survival

would be possible

reincarnation,

two

line

any shape or form, even through

such a scenario. That's one reason

in

materialists are so attached to the idea of

refutes all religions in a

in

if

memory

why

storage in the brain, because

argument. But, in

fact, there's

very

it

little

evidence they're stored in the brain.

So

if

they're not stored in the brain then the

but there'll

still

them. So could

have

to

memories won't decay

some tuning system, could some non-physical

survive death and

still

at death,

be something that can tune into them, or gain access to aspect of the self

gain access to the memories? That's the big question.

open question. I myself think that we do survive bodily death some form, and that some aspect of the self does survive with access

regard

it

as an

memories.

And that's a personal opinion. The theory

I

in

to

as such leaves this question

quite open.

DJB: Do you

think there

is

a

morphic field for dreams, mystical experiences, and

other states of consciousness?

—

RUPERT:

I think that any organized structure of activity which includes dreams and some mystical experiences, and altered states of consciousness any

—

pattern of activity has a structure, and in so far as these mental activities or states

have structures, then these structures could indeed

by morphic resonance.

And

indeed, in

many

move from

person to person

mystical traditions,

it's

thought that

people through initiation are brought into that particular tradition and resonate, or in

some sense

enter into

communion

with, or connection with, other people

who

followed in the tradition before. So, in

Hindu and Buddhist

lineages, 149

you often get the idea

that

through

.

RufH-n ShclJraki'

and the transmission of the

comes into contact with the gum, the teacher, and the whole line of those who'd gone before. There is a similar idea in Christianity, the idea of the communion of initiation

saints. rist,

Those who participate

in the

right mantras,

be around, but

to

who've done

those

RMN: What

the

somehow

same thing

initiate

Christian sacraments, particularly the Eucha-

arc in contact, not just with other people

happen

and so on, the

doing

it

now, or other people who

some kind of resonant connection with

in

all

before.

have your ideas been on the hierarchical systems of morphic

of the fundamental fields of nature or

life,

and the basic morphic

fields,

fields that

have

influenced that, or the morphic fields of morphic fields? I've been wondering

about

that.

RUPERT:

I

think

all

They're hierarchical

such fields are organized holorarchically or hierarchically. in the

sense of nested hierarchies. Cells are within tissues,

and tissues are within organs, and organs are within your body. There's a sense

which

the whole, the body and the mind, the whole of you,

is

greater than the

organs in your body, and those in turn are greater than tissues, those greater than cells, those in turn greater than molecules.

more embracing

context, the If at

every level. Our earth, Gaia,

is

organizes

is

in turn

a spatial

is

organized, you can see the same pattern

included in the solar system, the solar system

whole

parts within it, and the parts affect the whole. the

.

is

galaxy within a cluster of

in the galaxy, the

level the

greater

field.

you think about the way nature

At each

The

in

galaxies, and ultimately everything

is

in-

eluded within the cosmos. So you could say the most P rimal basic field of nature cos mic field and < he " the «a lactic

is

the

ie

ds

'

'

, and solar system 1

fields,

| planetary !fields,

continental fields, and so on in this nested

whole organizes two-way influence.

hierarchy. At each level the affect the

whole; there's a

DJB: Do you

think

it's

patterns

Well,

come

I

it,

and the parts

possible that morphic fields from the future

influencing us, as well as those from the past?

RUPERT:

the parts within

think that

is

If not,

may be

why?

related to the question of creativity;

how do new

There may possibly be some influence from the future. which I'm mainly talking about, are not influenced by the as this theory is concerned. It would be possible to have a

into being?

But the habitual

fields,

future, at least as tar

theory that said the future and the past exerted equal influences, but that theory

would be

different

from the one I'm suggesting, which

150

is

that the past

is

influencing

Rupert Sheldrake

the present through

morphic resonance.

If future

theory would be virtually untestable, because the future, so

we

wouldn't

If the future

know what

and past influenced

we

don't

know what

start

off just as

always be limitless numbers

them. So

in

all

around the world,

good as they continue, because which would be influencing

in the future,

this is actually a testable possibility.

memories come from

think that habits and

I

happen

much as the past, then the experiments I'm

suggesting, like rats getting better at learning something

they'll

equally, the

influences we'd be testing for.

influenced things as

shouldn't work. Rats should

it

will

the past. This

just

is

common

sense.

We have memories of the past, and we don't have memories of the future

in the

same way. Occasionally some people have pre-cognitive

don't have memories of the future. tions, insights, etc., but they're not

from

the past are

from

the past.

RMN:

memories.

We

We may

flashes.

memories

in the

same sense

state, as

RUPERT:

think so.

it

we

memories we get them

that

don't get habits from the future,

Could the presence of the future be described as the potential

system, the virtual

But

have hopes, plans, desires, inspira-

state

of the

moves along the pathways or access routes towards it?

two ways of thinking about it. One is which is the realm of hopes, fears, possibilities, dreams, imaginings about what can happen. But then there's a further question, and a more fundamental one, as to whether the whole evolutionary process is being pulled from the future, rather than being pushed from the past. And the idea that it's all being pulled from the future is a very traditional view, and so is the idea it's being pushed from the past. The traditional Judeo-Christian view of history is that history is being pulled from the future, there's something in the future which Terence McKenna calls Yes,

I

I

think there are

there's a kind of aura around the present stretching out into the future,

—

calls the omega point, what the Book ofRevelation calls the new creation, what metanarians have thought of as the millenium. That some future state of perfection is drawing the whole cosmic evolutionary process towards itself in some mysterious way. And that, therefore,

the transcendental object, Teilhard

deChardin

whole cosmic evolutionary process has a kind of goal or purpose. Well that's a view which many people subscribe to, and it's a view that lies at the root of the the

doctrine of progress,

So

this

view

dominates both

Most that,

be

capitalist

society.

philosophical view; in a secularized form,

—

and communist societies

traditional societies haven't

they looked to the past for a

in the

And

which dominates our whole isn't just a

had

that

the

dream of

it

a better future.

dream, they haven't been motivated by

model of the way things should

golden age. They haven't tried to create a

new

be,

how

it

used to

kind of future golden age.

our society represents an ambitious global attempt to do just that through

conquering nature by means of science and technology. The inspirational basis for 151

Rmpert sheldrake

the destruction of the

dream of

this

em ironment,

there's peace, prosperity,

And many

of us

utterly destTUCth e in

same dream Of a

vision

think that

dream

RMN:

it's

I

Yeah,

know. The

is

think

I

all

attractor, as

it

is

utterly

that

it

still

comes from

is

that

forms of western thought

one could

dominant

New Age communists

in

call

The

it.

idea of

almost every area

with their millenarian

that leads

on

to the next question in the current

I

have about how

to use the

research of dynamical systems,

theory of formative causation.

RUPERT:

Well, the idea of attractors, which

ematical dynamics,

end

the

a kind of chimera, a vision that

just part of our culture.

concept of attractors, as expressed in the

is

consequences. But the fact

goal attracting things towards

—

is

progress will lead us towards, where

future pulling things along.

western thought

tropical forests, etc.,

and plenty through man's conquest of nature.

now

its

that

under the influence of this particular

arc

a future

o\

on earth

a future state

development of the

the

states

is

a

way

of modeling the

toward which they tend. This

is

is

developed

way systems

in

modern math-

develop, by modeling

an attempt to understand sytems by

understanding where they're headed to in the future, rather than just where they've been pushed from in the past. So, the attractor, as the the

system towards

itself.

ing marbles, or round balls into a pudding basin.

round, and they'll finally the basin

is

is,

implies, pulls

balls will roll round

and

bottom of the basin. The bottom of

to rest at the

what mathematicians

in fact, their principal

The

call the

basin of attraction.

metaphor. So the

ball rolls

down

to the

it in, or at what speed you throw it in, model does is tell you where it's going to end This kind of mathematical modeling is extremely appropriate, think, to the

bottom. or by up.

come

the attractor, in

The basin

name

A very simple, easy-to-understand, example is throw-

It

doesn't matter where you throw

what route

it

takes

—what

this

I

understanding of biological morphogenesis, or the formation of crystals or molecules, or the formation of galaxies, or the formation of ideas, or behavior, or the behavior of entire societies.

Because

all

human

of them seem to have

which we think of consciously as goals and purposes. But, throughout the natural world these attractors exist, think, largely unconsciously. The oak tree is the attractor of the acorn. So the growing oak seedling is drawn towards its formal attractor, its morphic attractor, which is the mature oak tree. this

kind of tendency to

move towards

attractors,

I

RMN:

So,

RUPKRT: to grasp,

happen

it

is

like the future in

It's like

some

sense.

the future pulling, but

it's

not the future.

because what we think of as the future pulling

in the future.

You can

cut the acorn 152

down

is

before

It's a

hard concept

not necessary it

what

will

ever reaches the oak

Rupert Sheldrake

tree.

So,

not as

it's

traditional

language

future as

if its

potentiality to reach an is

end

state,

oak

which

inherent in

which draws everything towards which would be

it.

is

So

own

like their

entelechy means the end which that's

what draws

necessarily in the future.

is

But

it.

all

within

RMN: is

it

in the

it

Each organism, like which means this end state

—

tree,

it

has

becomes

its

own end, goal

purpose, or goal.

somehow

is

another sense

it's

not

not the

so.

Perhaps the most compelling implication of your hypothesis

not governed by eternally fixed laws but

as conditions change. In

language

destiny or purpose.

that end, purpose, or

actual future of that system, although

and

which is the end people would have their own en-

in a sense in the future. In

It is

some kind of The attractor in

It's

it.

nature.

the aspect of the soul,

an acorn, would have the entelechy of an oak

And

its

the entelechy, in Aristotle's language,

of the medieval scholastics. Entelechy

telechy,

tree is pulling

is

more by

is that

nature

habits that are able to evolve

what ways do you think the human experience of reality

could be affected as a result of this awareness?

RUPERT:

Well,

nature gives us a

I

think

much more

sense of nature herself.

I

—

is in

like a

all

the idea of habits developing along with

evolutionary

think that

nature—

world

the entire cosmos, the natural in

of

first

some sense alive, and that

we

it's

live

more

developing organism, with develop-

ing habits, than like a fixed machine gov-

erned by fixed laws, which

the old

is

-the idea

• •

of habits de-

veloping along with na-

a much more evolutionary sense

ture gives US

of nature herself

image

of the cosmos, the old world view.

Second,

think the notion of natural habits enables us to see

I

kind of presence of the past in the world around us. that

happens and

present,

and

is

Thirdly,

in it

own memories, ries,

is

gone.

something which

It's

some sense

rituals,

past isn't just something

continually influencing the

gives us a completely different understanding of ourselves, our

our

own

the past of our society.

new

collective

memo-

And

it

also gives an

Jh e p^t

is

continually

influencing the present.

insight into the importance of

and forms through which

we

connect ourselves with the past, forms in

which past members of our society become present through it

there's a

present in the present.

and the influence of our ancestors, and

important

The

is

how

also enables us to understand

how new

I

think

patterns of activity can spread far

more

ritual activity.

quickly than would be possible under standard mechanistic theories, or even under standard psychological theories. Because practicing something,

it'll

make

it

if

many people

easier for others to

153

start

doing, thinking, or

do the same

thing.

Rupert Sheldrake

RMN: And RUPERT: people cultural

i.\o

the

way

^ es.

mean,

I

— will

different discoveries are found simultaneously.

resonate with others, as

development,

RMN: When

that's another aspect.

It

will also

mean

some

things that

independent discoveries, parallel

in

etc.

you were talking about the individuals' destinies being ruled by field of their own. Individuality does that resonate

—

some kind of morphic

through their ancestral heritage and their environment?

RUPERT:

Well,

it

was

in a quite limited

sense that

I

was using the term. When embryo is to be an

you're an embryo there's a sense in which the destiny of the

human being. There's a sense in which the growth and development of an embryo and a child are headed toward the adult state. That's a relation to time, of adult

heading towards an adult or mature

and

plants.

Then

common

This

is

there's a sense in

to all

everybody does

we

state that

share in

a basic biological feature of our

animals it,

but

—

which there

is

common

with animals

life.

a kind of biological destiny that's

you know, having children and reproducing. Not obviously pretty fundamental. Most people do

it's

it.

If

we wouldn't have a population problem, and that's something that's fundamental to the human species today. Then there's the more psychic, or

they didn't pretty

personal, or spiritual kinds of destinies. Here one gets a as to

what these

RMN:

Could you expand on

RUPERT: The

whole variety of opinions

are.

thing

is

that

that?

most of us aren't

We

at all original.

opinions from the available variety on the market, and

mostly take on

when you come

to the

question of individual destiny, you know, there's several traditional theories.

One

is

that

purpose of is

when we life is to

die, that's

enjoy

it,

while

it

everything just goes blank, and so the only

it's

the classic materialist or epicurean

Then

who

there are those

underworld, and our destiny

is

happening. There's nothing beyond. This

view of

life.

think that after death

to join the ancestors,

and

cycled back into a kind of eternally cycling pool o\ traditional societies

where

it's

the ancestors are constantly force. But people don't

we go

that basicaly lite.

not believed that things change

being recycled

among the

into a kind oi

living,

This

much

is

we're just

found

in

over time, so

and they're

a living

have any individual destiny other than becoming merged

with the ancestors. So that would be another option.

Then

there's the reincarnational theories, that you're reincarnated, and that

154

Rupert Sheldrake

the ultimate destiny

But

liberated.

if

liberation

is

Buddhism

ideal in

is

from the wheels of reincarnation. The boddhisatva

become

to

you don't aspire towards

become ultimate human

and then help others

liberated

which

that end,

is

the

to

end, namely liberation, then through karmic activities and involvement with this life

end or goal which may take many lifetimes

this

to achieve.

view you find among Christians and Moslems, which is there's another realm after this life in which you can undergo continued

Then

that

you move towards

you'll simply be reborn and keep being reborn until

there's the

destinies, depending on how you mean there are many choices, and that's one of the areas in which choice or freedom comes in. We choose which of these kinds of destiny we want to align ourselves with. Or if we don't think about it or don't choose, then we just fall to the lowest common denominator.

development or some further destiny, different behave and what you want

DJB: What would

in this life. So,

I

types of research experiments do you think need to be done that

either prove or disprove the existence of

RUPERT:

Well,

I

outline quite a

morphic

number of them

in

fields?

my books. There's a series

of experiments that can be done in chemistry with crystals, in biochemistry with protein folding, in developmental biology with fruit fly development, in animal

behavior with that other

details of

rats, in

human behaviour through studying

rates of learning tasks

people have learned before. So there's a whole range of

which

I

suggest in

tests, the

my books, which could be done to test the theory in

a variety of areas: chemistry, biology, behavioral science, psychology.

these tests are going on right

competition for

tests

now

in

some

Some

of

universities in Britain. There's a

being sponsored by the Institute of Noetic Sciences,

tests to

be done by students. The closing date's in 1990. So these are just some of the tests that I'd like to see

DJB: Could you

RUPERT:

done

tell

to test the theory.

us about any current projects on which you're working?

Well, I'm doing two main things

at present.

One is that I'm

helping to

coordinate research on morphic resonance, organizing tests in the realms of

chemistry and biology. Nature.

It's a

And

book about

the

rather than inanimate, and

people

secondly I'm writing a book called The Rebirth of ways in which we're coming to see nature as alive,

how

in their relationships

this

has enormous implications: personally for

with the world around them; collectively, through

our collective relationship to nature; spiritually, the

way

this leads to a

reframing

or re-understanding of spiritual traditions, and politically through the

Green

Movement, which is now an influential political force, especially in Europe. Moving from the exploitive mechanistic attitude to a symbiotic attitude, we

755

.

-/

SlnlJriikt

realize that

...we realize that we're

not in charge of nature.

we're not

in

eharge of nature,

we're not separate from nature and some-

how running

.

it.

Rather we're part of ecosys-

tems, and part of the world, and our contin-

ued existence depends on living harmoniously with the planet of which we're a pari.

It's

an obvious thing, this Gaian perspective, but

seriously in polities. But

now

idea oi nature as alive has its

it

is

become

it

hasn't been taken

being taken seriously, and so

I

would say

the

a very important force in our society through

political manifestations as well as its scientific ones.

156

Carolyn Mary Kleefeld "...when artists are working directly from their emerging consciousness, their art

is

their

157

most honest mirror."

Singing Songs of Ecstasy with Carolyn

On September

Mary

Kleefeld

her candlelit living room and painter Carolyn Mary Kleefeld

14, 1989, in

at

around midnight, we

home in Big Sur, perched on the crest of a mountain cliff high above the sea. Carolyn was born in C 'atford, England, and raised in Santa Monica, California. Fueled by a life-long interviewed poet

at her

and a passion for creative expression, award-winning poetry books is that address these archetypal themes: Climates of the Mind, Satan Sleeps With the Holy: Word Paintings, and Lovers in Evolution. Her influential books received the rare honor of being translated into Braille so as to give vision to the blind by the Library of Congress, and are used worldwide at many universities and human potential centers. Carolyn is currently completing her sixth book The Sixth Dimension:Architecture for Ecstasy. During the Summer of 1990 the Gallerie Illuminati in Santa Monica featured a dazzling series of Carolyn's visionary paintings in an exhibit entitled "Songs of Ecstasy, " and an art book of the same title was simultaneously published. Since then her work has been featured in galleries all over the world. A selection of her paintings is also available as a line of fine art cards, from Atoms Mirror Atoms ofCarmel. Her painting "Neuro-Frotic Blast-Off" appears on the cover of my first book, Brainchild, and her piece "Fluorescent Sunset of the Future" is included in a textbook on visual art called Unique Journeys* by fuse

she

i

nation with psychological transformation

the author of three internationally acclaimed,

—

—

—

Professor James Schinncllcr of the University of Wisconsin. ( 'arolvn spoke to us about the relationship between art and consciousness, expanded awareness and

and personal and universal transformation, and muses with us about the living secrets of nature. She looks as though she danced right out of one of her own paintings. Her eves and smile liave a luminous mystery about them that is present also in much of her work. She has a graceful and elegant manner about her, and one is easily enchanted by her poetic style of expression. creative expression,

—MB

\5S

Carolyn Mary Kleefeld

DJB: What was

CAROLYN: unknown,

It

your interest

that originally inspired

it

my

the discovery of

is

that propels

my

translation.

in creative

expression?

relationship with the universe, the

The spheres explored

radiate a spectrum

of seed-images. The wilderness of the un-

conscious

lush with the

is

gems of

It is the discovery

infinity.

of

The ancient codes lie in the seams between worlds. They only await the radiance of our

my relationship with the

conscious light to be illumined, recognized.

m y translation.

For example,

at

wrote and illustrated

Many

The Nanose.

seven years old,

had

its

external event

Through

.

I

my first book entitled,

years later

I

found out

inherent

meaning

in

my

that

experience then, which was

my bedroom window, my poetic translation of rather than in the sunbeam flooding

triggered by dust particles dancing in a actually

universe. .that propels

it,

itself.

my

impression of the dancing dust particles

corded interaction with atomic

life.

My

art

was

I

had

my

first re-

the bridge, translating localized

conception (dust particles) into atomic theory.

I

thus experienced intimate

dialogue with the vaster universe.

my

Today

reading of science

tells

book were monads, or cellular/atomic concepts of biology and physics. Even word "nano," meaning very small, as

me

Nanose

that the

entities that underlie

the

title

in the

Nanose

in

my

childhood

our contemporary

essentially

is

the

Greek

contemporary innovation called

"nanotechnology."

So the

art acts as a

codes

DJB:

—

So,

prescient translation from the unconscious mind, revealing

the consciousness of the underlying forces of nature.

was

it

basically a need to express powerful experiences?

CAROLYN:

Well,

exterior event

itself, that

DJB: What do you

CAROLYN: saying that give

me

I

it

interaction with inner experience, rather than the

propelled the creative expression.

think triggered these experiences?

dynamics of discovery that innovation occurs. I also am "respond" from the inside out. Rather than having the exterior world It is

in the

its reality,

I

interpret the reality

The experiences Those

was my

are

woven and

certain experiences that

need

from within myself.

sculpted by

to

me

and are the songs

that

particular nervous system.

be lived as part of one's evolvement are

the ones to leave the deepest impressions.

within

my

emerge

159

These impressions imprint in

my

their design

tides of creative expression.

c

Mary Kleefdd

'arotyn

Also,

.

Even

the mistakes that

are hirthed instigate further invention.

it

is

out of the foundation of

phi osophical architecture that

nate

my art? with subsequent reflection, con-

sciousness.

Out of

this constant

my

is

processing

my

work,

life's

reveals the seeds, buds, blossoms, fruits, the pollen of

germi-

I

,

within me, which visible art

my

own

my

interplay

with the unknown. Even the mistakes that are birthed instigate further invention.

me beyond

The propulsion of innovation wings This

to let

idea intimates the possibilities of developing "laser sight" in the

last

This means

future.

to inhabit a

radiance flood

The

it.

through the density that

From

transparency of being that

is

so open a system as

vision of our futures could possibly allow us to see

now

blocks our vision.

new way of

the architecture of a

perceiving,

we

Our cosmic eyes

immediately into the true laws

will see

neous perception will bloom

that be. Instanta-

smoldering symbiosis. Our cellular beings

in this

will manifest our consciousness in

new

sight

and technologies of

life.

RMN: To what extent is your work autobiographical? How do you use by which

the author of

Being an

my

life.

artist,

I

am

the translator of

my

is

and the work. The universe

essentially autobiographical.

is

strumming the

strings of

record the songs. After the songs are born, either in prose, or poetry,

my own

state

I

I

am

at

own

am

unique

once the

tool,

my nervous system and my paintings, drawings, I

study and endlessly see different perspectives depending on

of being, or cycle of evolvement.

Last Fall,

I

gave

Evolution's Mirror" their

as a tool

experience and thus

Since each of us experiences something in our

way, everything we create

it

and integrate your inner processes?

to access, understand,

CAROLYN:

from

from the

will peer

spheres and see into the gossamer connections of our electric loom of

infinite

being.

localized sight.

Monterey

a reading in

—my theme being

emerging consciousness,

that

Cafe Portofino

at the

when

artists are

their art is their

titled

working

most honest mirror.

"Art as directly I

mean.

work comes from the inner development of the artist, rather than from Most artists are like engineers reproducing the familiar. This type of from the outside in, is not the same art as art that is being created as part of an

when

the

imitation. art.

emerging consciousness. their

If artists

work, they can't learn by

are not involved in the inner consciousness

But each of us has a unique path, and none are to be judged.

me

tlie

conscious reflection

this tool

which shines

light

is

on

part of the fun of discovery, so

my

the

It

is

a

/

Ching.

It

It's just that for

I'm blessed with

work. Symbolic poetry, which

translation, otters a kind o\ insight similar to the

participant-viewer or reader.

of

it.

is

my

reflects

bridge o\

back

to the

kind o\ Rorschach, revealing from the truth of

unconscious one's inner shadow. 160

Carolyn Mary Kleefeld

This

enough

way of

living requires constant preparation, keeping oneself clear

space to ride the constant waves of invention. The process

to create the

one of digestion, assimilation and integration of the universal

is

flux.

RMN: Do you think you benefited by having a formal art training, and how have you incorporated

that?

CAROLYN: served to

tell

own voice,"

In both my painting and poetry, I learned what didn't inspire me. It me was to sculpt my own path, sing my own unique song. "Find your as Anais Nin wrote to me while was writing Climates of the Mind. I

I

RMN: How

easy do you find

it

to

be objective about your

what do you think are the most important in order to evaluate

CAROLYN:

good

There

is

critic

should have

no such thing as being objective. Every observer has a and preferences, so

it

isn't possible for

be non-biased. The most essential quality for a

aware of

creations, and

something from a non-biased standpoint?

particular set of prejudices critic to

qualities that a

own

critic to

myself or a

have

is to

be

this.

DJB: When you're

CAROLYN:

It

in

need of inspiration, where do you turn?

depends on what cycle or season I'm

in. It

could range from quiet

meditation in a beautiful environment, to dashing somewhere for social stimulation. It's all in

my

relationship to the internal dialogue that the inspiration comes.

draw to me projection, which

which mirrors me. The outside inspiration comes from a later I may say "inspired me," or was the "stimulus." Actually it's the interplay of myself with that which mirrors me. The company distributing my art is called "Atoms Mirror Atoms," which reflects this idea. We So,

I

will

that

are nature's forces translating, in translation.

tongues of

DJB: Are

That

is

why

its artists'

human terms, our existence. Art is my bridge of

art is the "international

language," as

it

has the myriad

voices.

there any particular authors or musicians that

have inspired or

influ-

enced you?

CAROLYN:

Yes,

my first mentor was Dr.

Carl Faber, then

came

the writings of

Anais Nin. Other influences include: Herman Hesse, Marie Rainer Rilke, Wil-

Van Gogh, Marc Chagal, Gustav Klimt, D.H. Lawrence, Thomas, Benjamin de Casseres, Aldous Huxley, and Mozart.

liam Blake, Vincent Baudelaire, Dylan

Then

there

is

the current powerful influence of

161

my

friends and contemporaries.

Ctuvtyn Mary

Klt-i-fcU

DJB: How do you experience and ( It

describe the stages of the creative process?

IAROLYN: To begin with, creative expression requires

me

to

photographed by

be a canvas or open page. the sublime.

It

is

I

requires an overflow of energy.

offer myself as the film for being

always out of

a

random spontaneity. That

ha\ e paints in different areas outside as well as in

\\

h\

a

pen and paper on

I

my

Sometimes

longer.

seems

be ignited

to

DJB: How do you

CAROLYN:

there

living room.

is

in the

I

a fermentation or incubation; other times, the

flame

darkest night.

see consciousness evolving in the next century?

Progress

is

painfully slow.

We

are

still

existing on a biological

survival level. Nature will use us as

...the

is

carry

I

draw some of my best work while in a car. As to stages, it varies from very quickly to a few months, or

hikes.

the length oi time of the

my

word "universe"

to continue

means united verses.

v'wz,

its

its

tools

galactic body. For us to sur-

we will have to refine ourselves as one

with this endless expanding universe. No-

verses.

When

there

cacophony.

is

in

harmony,

life is a

tice that the word "universe" means united symphony of united verses; when discordant,

RMN: How do you compare the creative process involved in writing poetry with that of painting?

CAROLYN: My painting and drawing, being visual, are pre-lingual. Poetry and prose, being verbal, are

more

restricted in their word-clothes.

translations, the

freedom of the non-verbal

words. They are

in

DJB:

In

in painting,

I

enjoy both

and the architecture of

constant dialogue, a harmonious chord ascending

my

your three books, there seems to be an evolution of consciousness

song.

that

is

being expressed: a progression from states of psychological difficulty and struggle to ecstatic mystic revelations.

journey from darkness

CAROLYN:

I

How

would you describe

this archetypal

to light?

would say

the darkness

is

there before the "witness of

oneself

is

developed It's in the capacity to reflect, that one illuminates one's experience and thus can move into the light. The light is one's own star in orbit amongst the galactic systems ill constant electrical interplay. The dialogue, the information, the secret messages come from being deeply in reception oi these infinite channels.

It

is

a

lying back in the

embracing arms oi

162

infinity,

having

all

in

Carolyn Mary Klccfcld

My books are the charting of this voyage of experiences, the

expecting nothing.

wake of navigation. Presently book titled The 6th Dimension: prose

currents in the first

represents the recordings of

my own

I

am

editing and completing

my

Architecture for a Esctasy.

particular vessel as

it

rides the

It

waves of

existence, a vessel united in verse with the universal.

RMN: Many of your paintings reveal mythic combinations of humans and animals. Does

from your own experience of inter-species communication?

this arise

CAROLYN:

we

Yes,

and cockatiels. We're squirrels,

dialogue.

hawks, peregrine falcons, chipmunks,

mice and many other unique creatures. The creatures and I

make

a special whistle

communicate with

RMN:

have an aviary here with thirty-six lovebirds, parakeets, living with owls,

the birds.

sound when

They seem

I

paint

which

I

I

are in daily

also use to

to tune in to the resonance.

Are they usually friendly?

CAROLYN:

Yes, unless put on the defensive, which

we

avoid. In Nature one

can see into the ancient wisdom, the order that governs our greater existence, our interactions with

one another.

DJB: So you feel that you can talk to Nature sometimes, or that Nature talks to you?

CAROLYN:

Yes,

I

do commune with Nature.

also experience a less literal, tally,

we've discovered

It

may be

more poetic language

necessary for others to

for this to happen. Inciden-

that lovebirds aren't necessarily

monogamous and

that

falcons can carry grudges.

DJB: Free-love

CAROLYN:

birds?

momore

Well, their behavior exposes our misconceptions about their

instincts are the same as ours, except that we are far Even though our birds have all their needs met in the aviary, programmed in a survival code, and will fight if territory or sex is

nogamy. The creatures' complex and they are

still

lethal.

involved.

DJB:

How

has your location influenced your artwork?

CAROLYN: We are living 500 feet above the sea, with a 360-degree view. This serves to keep a lid off our heads. spectacle.

We

The beauty

is

a never-ending, changing

receive the winds from every direction, which can be quite a

163

Carolyn Mary Kletfdd

challenge to live with. The wildly divergent energies, forces of the "dragon's

crown" where we myself

in

live, are all translated into

concert with

DJB: How has being

CAROLYN:

It's a

in

Big Sur

unique place to be.

that's possible

happen.

been essential for

me to be

all

in particular

It

through the instrument of

art

It's

influenced your work?

has accelerated

my art, to be in a place where

simultaneously

my

all.

it

I

an enigmatic and challenging environment.

in the constant inspiration

of nature, where

a position to live

r

f

my internal journey, and

can create the space and time to

and define

,

.we nave so few places f A i left that can mirror the ..

,.,

didn

.

t0 create a

Human soul,

my own

,, \. have the time

,,. t

my own .

do

is

me to be in a receptive and vulnerable state of being. Because the daily traffic of a city, I'm not having to use the defense

my

sensibilities.

My

sensitivities

experiment, and just be. Big Sur real

importance of keeping

so few places

left that

it

is

and

sensibilities

in

natural rhythms, I

\\ „ ¥ Here, m able ,

so. ,

much of the

This wilderness

It's

can be

nature. Previously,

.

to

world where

imagination as

I

let

I

can live

fa

my

time as possible.

a place that allows

I'm not dealing with

mechanisms

that dull

can have the freedom

to play,

a mirror for a beautiful state of mind, hence the

unpolluted can't be stressed too much, since

we have

can mirror the human soul. Of course, one's internal

environment always creates one's perception of the external environment, wherever one

is,

and can eventually reshape the external.

DJB: So you're saying

that there's a reflection or a synchronistic parallel

between your own inner experience and the environment here?

CAROLYN:

Yes, I'm attempting to live in a conscious process with

experience, weaving this integration into

with

many

business issues, social issues and other

I'm not able to be totally

how

my artwork. Of course

in

my

I'm also dealing

demands while

I

live here. So,

meditation. But in dealing with the world,

I

can see

other people are relating to the universe. There are enormously divergent

climates, conflicting psychological warfares, and

assumed prejudices

forms of human expression. This does not make

different cruel

world, and drags our evolutionary force

downward

that take

lor a healthier

like gravity,

instead of

evolving us into an ideal future.

DJB: What's dragging

CAROLYN: diversity.

Our

I

the evolutionary force

downward?

see us as the clothed forces of nature in our vast geometric

greatest limitation

is

our closed minds, our limited perceptions. 164

Carolyn Mary Kleefeld

This causes us to

live

from survival

and prevents us from realizing

we

everything that

ous planet.

If all

that

fears,

need, here on this glori-

we

themselves, the

way

survival mentality. But hu-

they think,

all people

were to cul-

tivate themselves., .we

could grow out of

people were to cultivate

grow out of this

man

V

we have

this

survival mentality.

could

beings have been raped of their self-rights, and have allowed this to happen.

For some reason they've given up

DJB: Why do you

CAROLYN:

their original birth-rights.

think they've done this?

There's a temptation to hand over self-responsibility,

first

to

familial hierarchies, then to the influences of educational and governmental "authorities."

On

the other hand,

world uses us according

mechanics

go on,

to

we

we

are tools in the hands of nature, and the

our strengths and susceptibilities. The jungle needs

just as the inter-galactic intelligence

DJB: So what do you saying

to

think

we

shouldn't, because

needs

its

its

imagination.

can do to help wake people up? Or maybe you're if

we're

all

part of a larger super-organism,

and

some people play the role of liver or stomach cells, maybe they don't need to wake up but then again you said before that they're hindering or pulling back on the evolutionary process. So what do you think people can do?

—

CAROLYN:

Ideally, all

people would develop a self-referencing point to

comprehend themselves and with awareness. Otherwise

enough to guide their own vessel

their universe well

you have

all

is

sleeping, dazed nuts and bolts, endless

A certain

repetitions of people in reproduction.

amount of

this is

obviously an

ingredient of evolution, but at this point in history

we can

see that a total regeneration

of inner, thus outer values all

is

The co ilective

^

necessary for

of our survival. The exploitation, the

murderous

lies

^ on iy as

individual

of our leaders, must be rec-

ognized, and the individual must reclaim their rights to harmony. Everything that's

going on outside

to a greater

DJB: The

is

also within us. It's

harmony. The collective idea being that the

people to do

it. It

CAROLYN:

is

up

to us to navigate

only as great as

more people

that

do

it,

its

the easier

creates a stronger field, and then there's

expanded consciousness. 165

it

is

for other

more of a resonance?

Yes, for instance, once an athletic record

psychologically easier for others to do the same.

our forces, unify

every individual.

is

broken, then

The resonance

is

it's

in the

C

urol\n

\/.;r\

KUcfcld

DJB: And you

think part of the problem

that

is

the bureaucratic systems

discourage people from living their highest integrity?

CAROLYN:

The word integrity has been

The comprehensive whole has

prominent ethical being.

1

consider

become disconnected,

schizoid. There

is

no

our society to serve as a model for a healthy way of

reality in

truly pathetic that the leaders

it

dysfunctional fragmentation.

lost to a

chosen by the people are the

most aggressive, vicious and deceitful of the population. This shows

we

are

on

bare survival, fear level and choose the most murderous dogs to defend us.

a

The

demand a voice that gives them their basic They must not agree to having their hard-earned

people have to think differently and rights to a healthy existence.

money used for defense instead of progress. As Einstein said, the problem is the way we think. constricted by a non-culture that

is

dollar-crazed,

think everyone has been

I

where

the churches have been

replaced by the banks. People are enslaved by their fears, by the stress that

a tax

You know, I'd like to see everybody in America all demanding to have a voice, right on their tax form; as to how money is spent. The most humiliating thing the government does is to levy so hard on the people that they have to work everyday under stress, and then

their

money

they're under financially.

stand up together their

used

is

to build

systems that

kill

So, here you have an example of what the individuals' rights

I

them.

was speaking of earlier.

If

you take

away, you make them completely dependent on you. Once

people submit to having their birthright, their individual rights, taken away, they've sacrificed themselves to a system that swallows their integrity. That's the

end of them, because they've

lost their

grow as individuals beyond where anyone's ever going exterior power and exploitation

capacity to

that social survival level of existence, and that's not to find fulfillment.

can only

come

the

Out of the relentless need for damaging imbalance of needs and greeds.

DJB: Do you

foresee a major change

CAROLYN:

Well,

like

I

coming along soon?

think that generally everything happens very gradually, just

Nature. But Nature also can do

opposite of gradual.

An

asteroid or

and there would be instant evolution,

DJB: Without warning

I

in a direction that

things that are the

into Earth, for

we may

example,

not recognize!

there are earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, and genetic

mutations. Things happen

CAROLYN:

some very extreme

comet could crash

all

of

a

sudden sometimes.

think that the earth

planets unto ourselves, the

same

is,

as

we

as the earth.

!M>

are. a

transforming entity.

We

are

Carolyn Mary Kleefeld

DJB:

Planets are really people?

CAROLYN:

They have transformations, they go

Planets are really people.

through illnesses, and everything just like planet

is in

next stage.

a health crisis,

So

I

and

it

CAROLYN:

DJB:

on every

do,

has to

it

level.

in

now this move to the

Right

order to

volcanism, or

we

any moment

at

could be

hit

by

from outer space.

DJB: Wow. You

beyond

we

do whatever

think that there will an increase in natural and peculiar physical

disasters, including increased

asteroids

will

something

really think that

Well, anything

is

like that

possible with Nature.

could happen?

Its

design in undesign goes

our localized conceptions.

In the

in a larger

way

we're like cells

that

body, and our planet

CAROLYN:

is

in a larger

sending out

alchemical stage of transformation.

We all

I

SOS

Yes, every atom in every universe

system and what the interplay of speculative.

body, planets are also like cells

see

it

signals?

is in

response from another

are part of an expanding intergalactic this will

as in our molecular biology,

mean

where

very complex and

is

different

enzyme combi-

nations have a uniquely specified part to play.

DJB: Have you had any experiences that you thought to be communications with beings from another planet or not of this world?

CAROLYN:

Well,

feel as if

I

I'm

in touch with

what

I

call the "ancestral

resonance." This would be a poetic translation for receiving information from

everything that's ever happened. Within one's every breath lives every beginning.

DJB:

It

sounds

like

—

what Philip K. Dick called Valis the Vast Active Living what the Hindus called the Akashic Records, or Alyha

Intelligence System, or

Vijnyana, where

CAROLYN:

the information in the universe

all

Yes,

if

you

you hear the music of sound, and the sound

symphony

poem

is

all

listen to the

stored.

sounds of the tides of the oceanic pulse,

that's ever been.

is still

is

Everything that's ever been has a

reverberating from

forever expanding with each

new

its

origin.

Of course

the eternal

cellular note of sound.

I

have a

about this idea called "The Lost Language of Unheard Sound."

DJB: The way

that

each sound

is

connected 767

to its

whole ancestral

past,

and

Corofy*

May

Kleejeld

carries within

it

CAROLYN:

Yes,

inspired infinite

the

whole

it

and maybe even the

history,

can be the exquisite music

future...

heard

I

in

deep meditation

that

nn poem. It is the lost language of unheard sound because it's lost in until we open our ears and deepen our silence to hear and receive it.

DJB: Have you ever thought

CAROLYN:

you are translating music

that

Yes, the fluid media

I

into visual

the

forms?

use allows the musical colors and rhythms to

form a circulation of patterns and forms through me. The fusion of the varied colors and chemicals creates a form of

its

own,

paralleling the synthesis of

musical textures.

As

example of the dolphin's ultrasonic communication teaches us, you can remake the form if you have its sound. So, out of the currents and colors of the music I paint to comes the form through my translation. The sound I make is dolphin-like and tunes me in mantra-like to the unknown, carrying back images like a

the

dolphin's sonar.

DJB: You've

refrained from imposing a kind of internal structure onto the

natural flow?

CAROLYN: It's more like I become the empty canvas, empty mind, and in becoming one with the atomic energies that be, these energies, this consciousness, uses

my

nervous system for

its

translation. Rather like an

Aeolian harp

being brought to sound by the winds.

DJB:

It

seems

CAROLYN: that

like a

musical instrument, your body or nervous system?

True, an instrument that lets itself be played by nature, but

I'm not guiding. I'm very

completely not

in

that's the only

way you can

opposites.

I

ballerina, so

As the

How

work

in

charge.

much

in

It's like all

the opposites are happening

get perfect balance,

when

meaning

we must

I

paint.

At an early age

winds as

As

a

conductor

a torch

I

stand above

of current.

I

my

I

was

a

my

paintings and

I,

as one. Thus, in the

particular integration, consciousness, the

gossamer order,

underlies the freedom of chaos.

DJB: Because you

o\'

prima

dance and leap about quite

unconsciously, letting us form each other, the work and inherent order of

—because

be the navigator of our energies, the balancers of

of atomic information.

as the skies and

isn't

the balancing

wear ballet slippers I was always involved with balance.

our living,

it

charge of what I'm doing. But I'm also

are unique, your

works have 168

their

unusual originality.

Carolyn Mary Kleefeld

CAROLYN: way

Thank you.

true liberation

my

weaving keeps

me

is

Originality has

possible,

is

its

origin in

its

freedom and the only

through inherent order. So

my

thoughts constantly into

art, into

order.

am

I

The

spinning and

bliss of inventing

in tune.

DJB: Yes, being

a musical instrument

is

a beautiful

metaphor for the process of

creative expression.

CAROLYN:

Also,

it

a unique circulation, a poetic metabolism. I've noticed

is

sounds when

the imagination has beautiful intensity of creating I I

is

in tune;

it

hums. The metabolic

hypnotic, like an unfurling chant, chord in accord.

once experienced

my body as being a nanotechnological factory

heard the buzzing and repairing of my system.

in which Atomic elves regenerating all my

parts.

DJB: So your work

CAROLYN:

expresses, through poetic metaphor, atomic life?

Yes, the language of poetic symbolism

kaleidoscopic view of

life that

is

ever moving in possible perception.

is

connected to a deep comprehension of the question of

You can see from

linear, or one-reality concepts.

existence,

its

pageantry of absurdity. There

and humor. In This

is

multi-faceted, offering a

is

this

the

reality,

It

is

not limited in the

overview the theater of our

cosmic eye with

all its clarity

my drawings, I have a character called "the Witness of the More." who

the self-referencing director

room of one's consciousness. There are some of us who

sifts

out the superfluous in the editing

live in the imagination, in the

crown of

the

universal consciousness. There are others essential to the industry, the mechanical.

Unfortunately most people have

become enslaved by

the rusty

mechanics of our

times, the stale and massively re-broadcast thoughts, and operate as robotized ants.

DJB: Slaves?

CAROLYN:

and

planet, of themselves, their leaders, tion.

wake

Yes, liberation requires people to

Through abrasion there

is

ers will put themselves out there,

existence. Like being a

diamond or

capacity to see through

life,

rise to a

refinement.

So

up, see the illness of their

higher more conscious integra-

the brave, the bold, the adventur-

and invent these possibilities for higher

crystal through their strength of vision, their

they illuminate the genes of life's potential, the

ideals of themselves. Since this planet is in a crisis stage,

healthiest instruments to bring

happening

in integration

it

to its next stage

of evolution.

it

will call

with an ever-expanding intergallactic system.

169

on

its

Of course this is all

Carolyn Mary Kieefekt

Remember, every atom of our con-

r atom of J our

... every

.

.

sciousness

,

being involuntarily mirrored throughout space. consciousness

is

is

«

,

.

being involuntarily mirrored

throughout space. That'swhy each individual is

so mportant; j

ted, radiated.

they a re living from their

|f

highest potential,

it

automatically transmit-

is

Today we must replace the "arms

we

nice" with a "race to hold hands." Atomically speaking,

are

anyway, even

though our defenses block the natural harmony of really holding hands.

DJB: What do you foresee happening to the evolution of human consciousness in the future? Where is the human race going in terms of how it's evolving in say ten years or fifty years?

CAROLYN: at

the

I

saw

one movement If

tion

a small waterfall of sand sifting

beach the other day. to

happen

we can move

I

down from

thought about the fact that

just the

way

it

out of our "survival

took

it

a

huge sand dune

all

of time for that

did.

mode" and

put our resources, imagina-

and money into medical science and technology,

we

could hold immortal

life

sooner than we might think. Nature already does it, and through nanotechnology

we

can.

DJB: What

do you think immortal physical bodies would have on the

effect

evolution of consciousness?

CAROLYN: We

could evolve beyond our constant preparation for death. This

could liberate people from

what

writing, that's

I

many of the exploitative emotions.

write about

—

In the prose

book I'm

the dimension that doesn't have to have death

for life to exist.

DJB: So your

CAROLYN: spiritual

DJB:

latest

Yes,

book

it's

is

about going beyond physical limitations?

architecture for a

new

philosophy, a

technology which, hopefully, will manifest

Spirituality.

CAROLYN:

It

What does

means

to

the

word

go beyond

spiritual

in

new way

of thinking: a

our scientific advancements.

mean

to

you?

the limited, physical conception of oneself.

(Hies personality, to unify with the greater order. This requires shedding the

many

superficial needs, desires

means having

a

reverence for

and myriad other ego-enslavements.

life, a

It

also

passion that takes you beyond the limits of

self-imposed "will-power" into a space that

is

effortless

greater forces that be. that are within each of us. 170

and yet animated by the

Carolyn Mary Kleefeld

It

takes giving oneself the time and self. It re-

It requires much re-struc-

re-structuring to eventually re-

turing to eventually regain

space to recreate one's quires

much

life

gain the essential simplicity.

and

When you

are

the essential simplicity.

living in your unconditioned being, in the

becomes a surfing of reality, of the waves and cycles of the infinite seasons. It is action through non-action. The circles of our cycles bring us back to a beginning that makes everything possible, where again rhythms of your Tao,

imagination

may

life

ride the crest of our highest potential.

171

Colin Wilson ...we possess

all

kinds of

of the future will

unknown powers, and

the science

be an exploration of these powers."

172

Outside the Outsider with Colin Wilson

Colin Wilson was born in Leicester, England, in 1931, the son of a boot and shoe worker. the

He left school at the age of sixteen,

spent some time working in taxes and

Royal Air Force, then became a tramp and did various laboring jobs for

and then his first book The Outsider. Living on almost no money, he would sleep outside at night in London, and spend his days writing in the British Museum. After his first book became a best-seller in 1956, he took to writing full-time and moved to Cornwall, where he lives to this day. In the mid-1960s, he was commissioned to write a book about the "paranormal, " became fascinated by the subject, and has written a number of books on paranormal phenomena. He has also written several works on criminology, psychology, and numerous novels with science fiction and several years while writing his first novel Ritual in the Dark

fantasy themes.

and has produced over sixty books to date. titles include The Occult, Mysteries, The Mind Parasites, and The Philosopher's Stone. His favorite recreation is listening to music and at Colin

is

incredibly prolific,

Some of his well-known his

home he has

a large collection of opera recordings. Except for occasional

lecturing trips abroad, he lives near Mevagissey in Cornwall with his wife

and

two sons. I interviewed Colin, while Rebecca was abroad, outside the cafeteria at the Esalen Institute on the afternoon of September 16, 1990. There

is

a laser

beam-like intensity to Colin, and he has an extremely focused and well-disciplined mind. Colin spoke eloquently about his interest in the paranormal, the relationship

between sex and creativity, certainty and ambiguity,

emerging species

that

he believes

is

life

after death,

and the new

evolving out of humanity.

—DJB

173

DJB:

Colin, what

was

it

that originally inspired

your

interest in the occult

and the

paranormal?

COLIN: was I

1968. At

in

simply asked

first

was

1

to write a

book about

the paranormal by a publisher

not very interested, although I'd always been mildly

would buy books in American airports about ghosts, weird coincidences, or whatever. Never the less I took it on as rather a lighthearted thing, and would not have been the least upset to discover that the whole thing was just a tissue of nonsense and wishful thinking. interested in the occult.

I

I

However, when began

to

go

had agreed to write the book for the sake of money, and

I

into the subject,

I

became

increasingly fascinated as as

as

...there's

much

evi-

for

is

saw

I

that there's

for the paranormal as

atoms and

Moreover,

electrons.

what excited me so much was that m y work had a11 been about this reco S nition that we possess powers that we do not normally

dencefor the paranormal as there is for atoms and i

much evidence

there

I

.

know

about or use. This appeared to be the

example of all kinds of powers that So it was a direct extension of my work in The stumbled upon it at just the right moment. perfect

we

don't

know about

Outsider, as

DJB: Aha,

were.

it

or

it

or use.

I

stumbled upon you.

Why

do you think

that

magic

is

the science

of the future?

COLIN: what

In a

way

was saying

I

this

supplements the

is that

we

possess

last

all

question that you asked. Because

kinds of

unknown powers, and

science of the future will be an exploration of these powers. But

at

the

the present

unknown powers, and it's still putting up a terrific paranormal. You know this Society for the Investigation oi

science does not accept the struggle against the the

Claims of the Paranormal, and so on.

science, of the

It

seems

to

me

that this is old-fashioned

most narrow and materialistic kind. You have

just got to be

and open up to this other possibility of unknown powers, which moment, we do not fully recognize. tolerant,

DJB:

I

believe that you have said that

have stopped writing to write

financial

you it

more.

Now

I

what was

it

point,

if

your

implying

inhibits

was money

first

motivated you

it'.'

174

of

millions, you may money motivated you

just the opposite

many people from

that

the

book made

that a lack

have always thought

freedom actually

sa\ ing then that

not.

at that

at

—

that a lack of

creative expression. Are

to write

your

first

book, and

Colin Wilson

COLIN: Oh

no, of course not.

The

first

book, in any case, The Outsider, was

written simply out of this compulsion that

weekend.

It

was

Neither have writing.

I

I

this basic fascination

said that

if

I

I

have been speaking about

all

obviously that motivated me, not money.

had become a millionaire

I

most certainly would not have. What I have said

would have stopped

is,

that if

my first novel

Dark had been turned into a movie, as it almost was in 1960, all of my subsequent novels would probably have been filmed and I would have been very comfortably off. But certainly I would not have been driven in the way that I have been driven, and I can not help feeling when I look back on this that the way that I have been driven is not necessarily a bad thing.

Ritual in the

Once, Fritz Peters turned

to Gurdjieff in a state of depression,

and Gurdjieff

was forced to make a terrific effort to get him out of this depression. Then moment crowds of people arrived, and Gurdjieff,

from looking exhausted, suddenly # ^

looked absolutely magnificently

full

of vi-

^m

W£ do

at this

(he yefy ejjorts

^ wmf

fc mafa? ., He said to Peters, you have forced me , , prove to be the very best r 4* J u wu u u to make a terrific effort, but this has been , , , that we could make. a f u >u * tu f very good for both of us. Thank you for reminding me. Now, very often the very efforts we do not want to make prove to be the very best that we could make. So, in a sense, being too successful would simply remove some of that inner pressure. You would slip into what I have been calling ambiguity. tahty.

'

.

-

i

,

i

DJB: What

similarities

and differences do you see between pathological or

criminal minds and the creative process?

COLIN: Shaw

we jrdge the criminal by his lowest moments, and the moments. So obviously, in a sense, they are absolute opposites, and that is what's so interesting about them. And yet you can also see very often that the criminal may be, particularly nowadays, a quite interesting said that

creator by his highest

intellectual creative sort of person.

Bundy

did, into crime, he's

And

that

when he explodes, as let's say much as let's say a painter,

choosing a path just as

more Van Gogh, chooses to create this kind of thing. The explosive sort of force behind Van Gogh's painting is obviously a force based upon a sort of frustration, and it's the same frustration that you would find in a criminal. The only difference is, of course, that Van Gogh deliberately makes the effort to transmute that to a much higher level. The criminal merely says, oh like Picasso, or

the hell with

it,

lets

something essential

go, and invariably destroys himself in doing so, destroys in himself.

There's a play by Pushkin called Mozart and Salierie in which he explores this

myth

that Salierie

murdered Mozart. One of the main points of the play

175

is

the

C

\>lin

WUson

discussion

in

which they

When

creator.

man who

slate that a

Salierie has

a criminal

is

poisoned Mozart,

cannot also be a great

suddenly strikes him that he's

it

poisoned Mo/art because he considers him his chief musical sense, by poisoning him. he's proved that he himself

is

But, in a

rival.

no Mozart. He's a second-

rater.

DJB: You

said this

consciousness to the

emotional circuit

you seemed

that

mathematically provable that "head

mind

think that the intellectual

human

superior

is

existence, as

weekend at Esalen? Don't you agree that one many ways of "Knowing," as you say, besides the intellectual this

of interpretation? For instance

perhaps telepathic,

COLIN: What

is

it

Do you

regard to solving the problems of

in

imply here

to

should integrate

mode

weekend

the answer."

is

—

sensory, emotional, phermonal, intuitive,

etc.

now, the twentieth century culture has tended to emphasize these other modes you mention. So that, for example, someone like D. H. Lawrence said, what we have to do is go back to the I

have said basically

up

that

is

to

Henry Miller would have said the same kind of thing. Walt Whitman also was saying in a way, trust the body. Now, all of this is perfectly correct in its way, but if Walt Whitman had said solar plexus, to sexuality,

trust

and mistrust the

intellect.

only the body, or D.H. Lawrence had said trust only the solar plexus, then

they would have been totally wrong.

Now what rest

I'm trying to say

is

that the

body, the solar plexus, and

You know

of them, play their part in this synthesis.

same

encal porsano, a sane mind in a sane body. But,

something

to

be

this intellectual

things.

No good

intellect

true, as

it

were, you can see that

it

is

having

because

it

will

this

D.H. Lawrence

always

tell

you

Women

lies.

in

strange feeling of bitterness, defeat, and

DJB: What do you

think happens to

a result

This

is

. .

./

Love and so

the conclusion

that... there is survival

docs survive,

would

because *'

is

these other trust the

Lawrence's

on, always end with a

human consciousness

It

it

futility.

not worry it

seems

a " as CL'P'

complain 176

if

'

is

came

I

it

survival after death.

me terribly if there weren't, me logical that when

to

disappear.

that

this,

conclusion that

to the

that there

death?

after physical

of writing the book Afterlife, and studying

came almost relllC-

after death.

all

Now

you should not

the reason that

almost reluctantly

tatltly to

same time we have when you see

true intellectually.

attitude that

men

that

recognition of truth that must be the foundation of

novels, particularly ones like

COLIN: As

at the

mind, and

to recognize that the ultimate arbiter is the

of the

all

the old Latin tag,

I

I

happened

could not really to

me

after

I

died.

Colin Wilson

It

would seem

lies

natural to say that the solution to the

elsewhere than

evidence

we do

is that

possible doubt about

DJB: Why do you

continue

it.

think there's such a fear of death then?

COLIN:

For the obvious reason

even sure

that

who have

it

would be

most people are not aware of this. I'm not

that

good

terribly

for

them

near-death experiences say that

resentful about being pulled back.

everybody

the outlet for

DJB: That sounds

problem of human existence

we have got to continue to exist. And yet the to exist. And I don't think that there's any

notion that

in the

in the

It

way

to

be aware of it. As

COLIN:

from

this

people

if death

became, as

it

were,

drugs or alcohol can be.

that

for the universe.

experiences communicating with beings that you origin, or not

it is,

so exquisite that they are often

would be too bad

good design

like a

it's

Have you ever had any

felt

were

extraterrestrial in

world?

No.

DJB: You have said that evidence for free will stems not from recognizing that we robotically fulfill desires like hunger and sleep, but from the recognition that we can think what we want. But how do you know that you can think what you want especially in light of the knowledge that by changing neurochemistry we

—

change consciousness?

COLIN:

I

said that William James' proof that he

was

not just a machine, that he

possesses free will, was this recognition that you can think one thing rather than

And

another.

there's

everything else

is

no doubt whatever

forth.

But there

You can change

—

to

I

that.

You may

feel that

do next can be explained in

is

I

the fact that

you can think one thing rather than and think something else.

in mid-stride, so to speak,

DJB: Why do you view evolution

can do

am going to dinner because I am hungry, and so on is that one thing that makes it absolutely certain that we do

possess free will, and that another.

we

mechanically determined, that what

completely mechanical terms.

and so

that

the psychedelic experience as a step

our instincts, as you say

backwards

—when so many people seem

to

in

claim just

the opposite?

COLIN:

If

Tim

Leary's claim was that you could, use the psychedelic experi-

ence to find your way into

new realms of subjectivity, and then use

way back

there without the psychedelic,

valuable.

What

tends to happen

is

that

I

would

agree,

when people

777

it

it

to find

your

would be extremely

get into these realms they

—

no words

find that there arc

experience

is

useless.

o\ course, this

tends.

1

express what they arc seeing, and so in a sense the

oi'

I

^;i\

—

DJB: But

COLIN:

Yup.

If

was wonderful, but

it

it

once myself,

you think the next That

is

that I've

moment we have passed through to

explore their

would

it, I

been trying

centuries in

own

only

I

you

it

get see,

again.

meaningful way?

entirely agree.

in the future,

the

and what do

weekend. At the

to explain all

which

it

way can

the reason,

is

into their lives in a

human consciousness evolving stage in human evolution will be?

backwards and forwards between

human beings

it

see

something

can't express

I

that the

would not dream of taking

I

they were able to integrate

DJB: How do you

COLIN:

was wonderful. And what's more,

pessimism, a feeling

people were able to integrate

if

it

by taking the psychedelic again. Which

is

after taking

.

say, well

experience of

think, to cause a kind of

the experience that, as

kind

to

They can just

pendulum has swung

materialism and a curious desire of

total

potentialities, a

weird feeling that you

know

more than the material world. Succeeding movements from the movement in ancient Greece, right down to Romanticism in the ninecentury, and this present consciousness explosion that you're now getting

there's far

platonic

teenth in

America

You

—

all

see,

Any

Left-Wing.

of these are back swings.

when I wrote The Outsider most people were determinedly you would

sort of intellectual

Marxist or a Left-Winger.

And they

how can we

more balanced

get a fairer,

talk to

was almost

sort of

certainly a

thought the only sensible question to ask was, political system. In the sixties all that

disappeared, and you suddenly began to get ,.

.we have now reached

a point in human evowe could lution where per'and go forward] .. „, A manently get up to the

me

consciousness explosion, which

continuing.

Now

the

swing

is still

towards the

is

recognition that the consciousness explosion is

the

answer '

We

have got

to

keep moving

in that direction.

_ There must be no back swing into total .

,

.

.

.

,

,

,

t

P'"

materialism. This, you see,

is

the really in-

teresting and exciting thing that's happening.

We've

got to stop thinking in terms of possibly going back. Whatever

happens now, we must go forward.

I

think that

we have now

reached a point

human evolution where we could go forward and permanently get up step on

which we would

DJB: Do you know "peak experiences"

stay.

of any techniques to maintain what

in

in

to the next

our day-to-day lives? 17H

Maslow has termed

Colin Wilson

COLIN: No,

except as

niques, once again,

I

say,

means

knowing

trying to do

would be one technique, and alcohol

is

tion exercises are another technique.

this;

you

the easy

it

see, the business

about tech-

way. Obviously psychedelics

another technique. Various yogic medita-

But what's so important

is to

have the

knowledge of what you want to achieve, and then to calculate how to get there. Now you must know what you want to achieve. So I keep emphasizing you have got to know in advance. This is what I am after. It seems to me that what we are all aiming at is what Jean Gebser called

precise

"integral consciousness," these levels of consciousness in self perfectly contented that feeling

must do

is

with the present moment. So

if

of tiredness, that feeling of, oh god what the

to recognize clearly that this is telling us lies.

we very often tend to do is not only a state of discouragement,

were, you're rolling

DJB: You have

to accept

it,

but

let

which you find your-

we experience and so on, what we

everytime hell,

Whereas, of course, what

ourselves therefore get into

and then suddenly into negative feedback, where as

down

hill.

This

is

—

the real danger

to

go

it

into depression.

stressed the importance of people having a strong sense of

certainty about things in their lives.

But

we know from quantum

physics that

we

can never really be certain of anything, because everything that exists, exists as vibrating

waves of probable

COLIN: Now, Copenhagen the position

as

What

are

you certain of?

quantum physics. That is the Heisenberg stated is you can not know both

say, that is not true in

I

Interpretation. All that

and the speed of an electron.

simply because

that's true

possibilities.

we

And

Einstein said, well yeah,

observe a sub-atomic event, you would need some way, as inside the

atom or the electron, which

point of fact,

it

just appears to

maybe

are dealing with sub-atomic events. In order to

is

it

were, of getting

not possible without affecting

be a simple consequence of the

it.

fact that

So, in

you

are

observing something so small.

On

the other hand, Einstein did not believe there

is

any fundamental

He went on to say, if you could devise an experiment in somehow bombard something so that two particles shot off in

uncertainty about this.

which you could

opposite directions, you could in theory, measure the speed of one and the position of the other.

And

if

they're identical particles shooting off in opposite

you would in fact have this double measurement. Of course this whole Theorem business seems to recognize that this is so. As far as I'm concerned, like Einstien, I do not believe in Bohr's Copenhagen Interpretation.

directions,

Bell's

DJB: Do you

see the non-local effect postulated by Bell's

explanation for such unexplained psychic

COLIN: No, I just don't know.

I

phenomena

Theorem

as being an

as telepathy?

don't think that the two electrons are telepathic. 779

Colin Wilson

But on the other hand.

I

have noted

my book Beyond

in

where you get absolutely absurd

identical twins,

the Occult cases of

similarities in their lives,

even

They have married people of the same name, on the same day. They go to the same place for holidays, and all kinds of Other preposterous things like this. They fell down and broke their leg on the same day. I do not know how you explain this. It does seem to me that there though they have been separated from

is

birth.

something very weird going on.

DJB: What kind of

relationship

do you see

—

if

you do

—between

sexuality and

creativity?

COLIN: sexuality

Well,

don't know.

I

me tremendously important because we experience ambiguity so often. This is this really what want? You know the old Latin It

seems

to

one of these examples where

is

sudden feeling of

—oh my god,

I

tag about after sex one feels sad, because

never was anything there in the

first

you suddenly what

place. It's

—

I

feel

—oh

it's

gone. There

call the Ecclesiastes effect.

new under the sun vanity of vanities, all is vanity. Which is the state we get into, when we get something we badly want, as Shopenhouer says. But on the other hand, you don't let it depress you that when you have eaten your dinner, you no longer want to eat another dinner. You just accept it and take it for

There

is

nothing

granted, and that

it

seems

to

me the same thing applies in this case. That the pessimism

Shopenhouer and Ecclesiastes believed It

seems

creativity.

me

to

that

is

But not simply because one feels

immensely important,

like

simply a

of logical howler.

sort

obviously sexuality can play an important part

D.H. Lawrence.

in

that the essence of sexuality is so

You

William Barrett, writing

see,

about existentialism, used this phrase about return to the sense of power,

meaning, and purpose inside all

about

Now

—

back

to get

us.

We all

to that sense

sex does tend to do that for us.

somehow

what

it's

of power, meaning, and purpose inside

us.

It

recognize that

that's

will jar us instantly, for example,

into a

sense of meaning. If a

man

is

feeling rather bored, and then suddenly catches a glimpse of a girl

pulling up her stocking, instantly he's wide awake.

You

can learn from

your way, for example, through the kind of pessimism about. But on the other hand,

what

I

,.

...human evolution can ,

.

.

-

**P y \ large extent in terms of

woman, and man's romanticism about woman.

we have been

have been saying today about revolution

,

,

is

this to see

the fact that

1

this

speaking romantic

feel that

human

to a verv large evolution can be explained, '

extent, in terms ol

woman

deism about woman. That (hc

bmm

cxploslon

revolution. Outer's

,

.

ISO

M

eternal

upward and on Th is creative process.

is

man s romanmay well explain

and

lhal lhc

romantic

woman, draws

us

really related to the

Colin Wilson

DJB: You have just begun to touch upon what I was going to ask you in the next or a lack thereof question. What role do you think having a sense of purpose

—

plays in our lives?

COLIN:

Obviously people are simply going

day, one of the things that struck the ones

to

mark

me a long time ago,

is

time.

I

that if

mentioned yester-

you look

at writers,

who produced something interesting and significant have been, in fact, who have been forced to struggle like mad from difficult beginnings.

the writers

So there's no question of them suddenly saying, oh what the hell, and letting go. They have a very powerful sense of purpose. Proust is an example of a writer who started off from a pleasant middleclass beginning, and although he is a great novelist, A la recherche du temps perdu,

basically a vast pessimistic cathedral that

is

succeeded

in reading all the

volume, which really gets

way

I

personally have never

through, particularly the Albertine disparue

me down. What

I

am

saying

is that if

you've gone

through extremely difficult experiences that have forced you, whether you like or not, to

make

efforts, then

from then on, you never

fall

back into

it

this facile

pessimism.

DJB: Could you

COLIN:

I

have

tell

us about any projects on which you are currently working?

book on serial killers. I intend to do two more Spider World the first four volumes of which are out in

just finished a

equally big parts to

my

America, and which

in a sense is

—

complete

in itself already. That, as

it

were,

is

the

So that when it is finished it will be a twelve volume work, about twice as long as The Lord of the Rings. This sort of fantasy novel, which I started a long time ago, strikes me as one of the most interesting things I have ever done. I have a feeling that one day all kids will know my Spider World. They will know me as the author of Spider World, in the way that they know Lewis Carroll as the author of Alice in Wonderland. Apart from that, I want to write a book called New Pathways in Human Evolution, to summarize all the kinds of things I have been saying this weekend, and I'm intending to write a study of the Female Outsider. first part.

181

Oscar Janiger "I

j»et

about

more from what

human

great minds have written

behavior, than an\ psychiatric

is:

text.'

Psychiatric

Alchemy

witn Oscar Janiger

Oscar Janiger was born on February 8, 1918,

MA.

in cell physiology from

in

New York City. He received his

Columbia, and his M.D. from the

UC Irvine School

of Medicine, where he served on the faculty in their Psychiatry Department for over twenty years. His research interests have been wide, and he describes himself as a

"

tinker er. "

He

established the relationship between hormonal

and pre -menstral depression in women, and he discovered blood proteins male homosexuality. His studies of the Huichol Indians in Mexico revealed that centuries ofpeyote use do not cause any type of chromosomal damage. He is perhaps best known for establishing the relationship between LSD and creativity in a study of hundreds of artists. In addition to his research cycling

thai are specific to

interests

he has also maintained a long-standing private psychiatric practice,

which he continues to

Back

this day.

in the late fifties

and early

sixties

when LSD was

still legal,

Oscar

incorporated LSD into some of his therapy, and is responsible for "turning on" many well-known literary figures and Hollywood celebrities, including Anais

Nin and Cary Grant. More recently Oscar has been involved dolphins in their natural environment, and

Foundation

is

in

studying

the founder of the Albert Hofmann

— an organization whose purpose

is

to establish a library

and world

information center dedicated to the scientific study of human consciousness.

has also just completed a book entitled doctors treat themselves. Jeanne

room of his home

in

St.

A Different Kind of Healing,

Peter and I interviewed Oscar

Santa Monica on January

every wall in his house

is

the largest

3,

and most

about

He

how

in the living

1990. Surrounding virtually interesting library I've ever

encountered. Oscar spoke to us about his scientific research, creativity and

psychopathology, the problems he sees with psychiatry, and his discovery of the psycho-active effects of isolated energetic man. There

is

DMT. Oscar

is

an extremely warm, highly He chuckles a lot, and one

a deep sincerity to his manner.

feels instantly comfortable

around him.

—DJB

183

— Janiger

.

DJB: Could you begin by interest in psychiatry

OSCAR: was

telling us

what

your

that originally inspired

and the exploration of consciousness?

about seven years old and

I

was

it

was

I

York, The nearest neighbor was a mile away.

living

on a farm

New

in upstate

would go for a walk, visit them, pla\ and then come home in the evening. This was a wild kind of country setting, and had to get home before dark. Some evenings I would be coming home and the scene around me on the path was filled with menacing figures: pirates and all kinds of cut-throats ready to grab me and do me in. There was a place I called the sunken mine, where people had supposedly drowned and there was a frayed rope hanging from a tree. All of these menacing things gave the evening a very sinister cast, and I'd finally run to get home. Certain evenings I'd make the trip, and everything was just light and airy. Things around me were filled with joy and pleasure. The birds were singing: rabbits, squirrels and other animals were having a wonderful Disneyland time. So one day I was thinking, My God, that's a magic road! One time it's this way, another time it's that way. So I puzzled over that. I finally came to the conclusion that, if it wasn't a magic road, then I was doing something to these surroundings and if I was doing it then / could change it. So the next time I came back from my neighbor's place, and everything got I

,

I

murky, strange and rabbits, bring

up." Sure enough, sciousness.

It

sinister,

back the

was

I

said,

"No!

squirrels, bring

If

I'm doing

back the

it

changed. That was

all

crystallized into a

fairies

this then bring

and

back the

let's lighten this

the beginning of

my

thing

interest in con-

marvelous saying from the Talmud

way they are, they're the way we are." on, when I'd get into situations, I'd determine what

"things are not the

From

me

within

world of

then

my work

projected outward, and what

among

The important

the fundamental things that

people behave and the contradictions

I

why extended

and the

one has

distinctions regarding to solve to

in their behavior.

understand

Other inspirations

I

to the brain

and the

activities of the

nervous system, which

had personal experiences with to me to be the largest why of all. Also, who had become, guess you'd say, psychotic, or who acted bizarrely or

seemed people

a reflection of the

was enormously curious about how things was always asking Why? Why? Why? Then I got to medical school

are simply those of curiosity.

worked.

was

was

can validate along with me. That, of course, has been the theme

therapy and as a scientist.

in

projection are

how

was being

that

that others

aspect

strangely.

I

I

These matters have been of great

DJB: How do you

OSCAR:

Well,

I

interest to

me.

define consciousness'.'

was

afraid

you were going

something. I'm caught between what

I

to

ask

me

that.

When you

say define

recognize as the accepted definition 184

—

the

Oscar Janiger

come

sources that

out of dictionaries, legal

When you get down to

definitions and all that stuff that belongs in the

contradictions like be-

pragmatic world— and the definitions that come

from

my

intuition.

nary offers

The Oxford English

unconsciousy

or seven varieties of

at least six

definition for consciousness,

and several have

When you

entirely different connotations.

down

Dictio-

to contradictions like

y

conscious of one S

iiig

get's

it

pretty Strange. .

get

being conscious of one's unconscious,

it

get's pretty

strange and labyrinthine. I

would say

—

one's self

aware of

the conventional definition contains the idea of being

a sort of self-reflection.

Or you can

describe

it

operationally as being

the end product of a

complex nervous system

allows us to be in

some way cognizant of ourselves and

that eventually

produces a

state that

the environment.

It

allows us to extrapolate into future events, into past events, and allow us to take

we can examine

a position in our imagination so to the ordinary, daily context

require qualifications, but

let

realities that are not

of the world around us.

Many

responsive

of these things

me then stay with the word as something that gives

us a feeling that distinguishes us as individuals, that gives us a sense of

self,

and

sense of self-reflection and awareness.

JSP: Many years ago, while you were studying at Columbia, you had some problems with your high school teaching job. What happened?

OSCAR: attended,

Well,

I

was

practice-teaching at the

Erasmus Hall

in

New

same high school

that

I

had

York, the second oldest high school in the

country. I was teaching general science with the lady who taught me, Miss Thompson. I took over her class, and she would sit in the back of the room. So, I was teaching astronomy to these sophomore or junior students. I borrowed a ladder from the custodian and I bought a bunch of gold stars. I spent the entire night pasting them on the ceiling in the form of the constellations. When I wound up it was getting light outside, and I thought I had done this incredible job. So the next day when we had the class, I said with a grand gesture, "We're studying the stars - look up." All the kids looked up, everyone was fired up and we had a good

time learning about

all

the stars.

That evening, as I was going home, I discovered a note stuck in my letterbox from Mr. McNeal, the principal of the school. It said, "See me." So the next day I went to see him. He said, "The custodian told me that you pasted things on the ceiling."

He shook

his

head and

said,

"I'm afraid you're going

to

waved me

have

to

remove

those, that's defacing school property,"

spent

the next night scraping the stars off the ceiling, thinking about the errors

of

all

my

and he

just

aside.

I

ways.

A week later,

I

decided that

we would study eclipses. I said to the kids in the 185

.

t

irst

Jtuuger

'You bring

row. 1

oranges.' said,

he third

I

"You

bring

in the

row

"You

told,

I

in knitting

To

lemons."

needles."

back with these required things.

I

So they were

"You

said,

To

bring in grapefruits."

said,

I

row

the second

the fourth

very eager and they

all

bring

row

I

came

okay, the grapefruits are the suns, the

oranges are the planets, the lemons are the moons, and the knitting needles go through the planets to make them a ball, but a big

tilted

and spin around accordingly. So we had

commotion ensued. During

and McNeal puts his head

in

door opens

this general upheaval, the

and pulls back again. So sure enough,

box. there's a note that says, "See

me

in

my

little

immediately."

said, "Dr. McNeal let me moon and the oranges and the lemons," but couldn't explain He said, "Did you know that the teachers on the floor were complaining about you? You were making a lot of noise." said, "Yeah, well, you know it's very difficult to get the spatial relationships right." He said, "I don't understand. You come from Teacher's College, that's the finest college in the country for

So

see him, and this time he's very unhappy.

I

I

explain about the sun and the

I

it.

I

teachers,

it's

the cradle of American education.

teach you about discipline in the classroom?" says, "Well, your classroom

was

in

about the oranges and the lemons."

guy was ready this,

to explode,

to

He

said,

I

I

was Dewey's

said,

said,

"What

he just couldn't handle

Mr. Janiger, but I'm sure

we're here

chaos!"

It

keep discipline

in

that

we can work

our classrooms."

I

shrine.

"Gee, yeah,

"Gee, are

guess so."

me

I... but let

tell

He you

you talking about?!" The

it.

He

it

out.

said,

I

Don't they

said, "I don't

Now

understand

please understand

"Okay."

So continued teaching and one day we had to study fermentation. That was my undoing. I brought into class that day a loaf of bread, which was covered with penicillin mold, a flask of vinegar, a few pieces of blue cheese and a little I

flask of wine.

I

put them out on the laboratory table and

useful and harmful results of fermentation.

come

Then

I

after class

said, I

"These are the

said, "If

how

any of you

tastes, you can see and so on. So one kid came up and nothing would please him, but he had to have a slug of the wine. Then I get the note, "See me immediately!" I went to see McNeal. He shook his head and said, "I've been a principal for twenty years and

want

to

up,

you can sample a

I've never run into this in

my

little bit,

life.

You

will

have

to

professor because you're under suspension right now."

I

the cheese

go back and see your said, "What's wrong?"

"Wine, wine! You brought spirits into the classroom!" said, "Now let me tell you about fermentation." "Please!" He said, "don't tell me about it, don't want I

I

to hear about

it!"

He was

apoplectic.

go back and see my professor, the holy of holies, the teacher of teachers. He was perplexed and then said to me. "There's something you should

So

I

know. We're here

to

teach children, not to entertain them." Well, that phrase

got up and said, "You know what got very upset. in me and You can take your goddamn class in general science and stuff it." For weeks alter, he'd call me and write me letters saying, we can work this out, but

broke loose

I

I

professor'.'

I

1H6

Oscar Janiger

refused. That

was my

ever happened;

I'd

DJB: You've used

teaching in high school.

It

be teaching high school today

if

stint at

still

was it

the best thing that

hadn't.

the term "dry schizophrenia" in describing a creative

Could you explain what you mean by

and what

this

artist.

and differences

similarities

you see between certain aspects of madness and the process of creativity?

OSCAR: could sit

—

if

my

Well, of course that's always been on

make

the wallpaper

me

you'll excuse

do

—on

and make patterns. Therefore

kinds of tricks

all

the John, and I

when

watch the

mind. I

tiles

was

suspected that there

it

real,

between the dream

and there were times when

life

and what

So there was a very

we might

found

I

call the

it

waking

rich repository of information that

disposal at times, sometimes breaking through at

that

I

could

my mind which

that,

under certain

can take on novel and interesting forms. The dreams

very vivid, very

I

recompose themselves

a part of

had a certain influence over the world around me, and conditions,

remember

I

had a fever, and

I

had were

hard to distinguish

life.

was somewhat at my

odd moments.

I

later

on thought

that could be a place that one could draw a great deal of inspiration from.

So

I

studied the conditions under which people have these releases, breakthroughs, or

have access

changing ask

way

to other

ways and forms of perceiving

the world around

them and

their reality.

When I studied the works of people who profess to go to creative artists and them how they did it and what it was about, I realized that what we had by of understanding creativity

cratic

was

a tremendous collection of highly idiosyn-

and subjective responses. There was no

creative process as a state

encourage

you could

real

way

of dealing with the

refer to across the board, or

how one

could

it.

That's

how

I

got the idea for a study in which

change consciousness paint before

in

an

and during the

we

could deliberately-

LSD, given the same reference object to experience. Then I would try to make an inference

artist

using

from the difference between the artwork outside of the drug experience and while they were having the influence of

it.

In doing so

I

was

struck by the fact that the paintings, under

LSD, had some of the attributes of what looked like the work If you would talk to the artists in terms of the everyday

done by schizophrenics.

world, the answers would be very strange and tangential.

Then

whole sticky issue of psychopathology and between the creative state and certain qualities that people say they have when they're creating, that were very much like some of the perceptions of people who were schizophrenic or insane. I began to notice what made the difference. It seemed that the artists were able to

creativity.

I

began

to look into the

I

found

that there are links

maintain a certain balance, riding the edge, as

187

it

were.

,

longer

.

.,,.

.

,

thought of creativity as a kind of .f .. dressage, riding a horse delicately with your I

,

was able to creative Pega-

The

artist

mfe

fas

SUS, putting

knccs Thc

pres-

little

,

,

at j ve

sure on his ability to control the situation.

artist

,

was

p eg asus, putting

\

ablc to little

master

it,

.

enabling him

while allowing the

flow freely so that the creative lake

its

own

course.

The

artist is

faced with the

of material to enter into his conscious mind, a

high-pressure

and

still

fire

him

hose. This allows

dilemma of allowing

much

his cre _

rj(je

pressure on his

ability to control the situation,

to just

.

rest to

spirit

this

like trying to take a drink

to integrate his technique

and

can

uprush

from

training,

be able to keep relatively free of preconceived ideas, formulated notions

or obligatory reality. In that state they were able to harness it enough so that the overriding symptoms of psychosis were not present, but every other aspect of their being at that time seemed as though they were in a semi-psychotic state. So I evoked the term "dry schizophrenia" where a person was able to control the surroundings and yet be "crazy" at the same time, crazy in the sense that they could use this mode of consciousness for their work and creative ability.

There's a think that

its all

we

lot

of documentation about psychopathology and creativity but

I

from a central pool, kind of a wellspring of the creative imagination

can draw from.

It

equally gives

it's

strength to psychosis in one sense, or

breaks through in creativity, or in the theological revelation

near-dying and people

who are seriously

a look into this cauldron, this very

some reason

or other

is

kept

ill,

in the

world of the

and so on. All of that provides us with

dynamic, efficacious part of the brain,

away from us by

a semi-permeable

that for

membrane

that

could be ruptured in different ways, under different circumstances. I

recall

reading that James Joyce had a daughter

named Lucia who was

was the sorrow of his life. Upon them were brought to Carl Jung. This was against Joyce's wishes because he didn't like psychiatrists. Jung examined Lucia, then finally came in and sat down with Joyce. Joyce said to him that he thought Lucia was a greater artist and writer than he was. Can you imagine? So Jung said, "That may be true, but the two of you are like deep-sea divers. You go into the ocean, a rich, interesting, dramatic setting, with your baskets, and you fill them up with improbable creatures of the deep. The only difference between the two oi' you is persuasion from Joyce's

schizophrenic. She

patron, both of

that

you can come up

DJB:

Basically

to the surface,

it's like

and she can't."

the difference

between being able

to

sw im

in the

ocean or

being...

OSCAR:

Caught by thc waves and dashed

that describes the

to pieces.

There's a wonderful book

process ot this ever-changing remarkable flux of consciousness 188

Oscar Janiger

that Sherington called "the

John Livingston Lowes.

I

enchanted loom."

recommend

it

The Road

called

It's

to

highly as an exercise in the

Xanadu by ways of the

imagination.

DJB: Could you

tell

us about the thought-experiment that you devised to

categorize what you refer to as "delusions of explanation?"

OSCAR:

Imagine

that

someone

taken quietly

is

at

night while they're sleeping,

out of their bed, and are then deposited in one of the most unearthly places on the planet

—Mammoth Cave. We found by repeated experiments

ing, there are only five explanations that

come up

someone

in a

that

upon awaken-

Western culture would

I refer to these main headings or rubrics as "delusions of They are: (not in order of frequency) I must be dead, I must be dreaming, someone or something has played a trick on me, I've gone crazy or I

with, and

explanation."

am

Mammoth cave. my experience in mental hospitals,

in

Through

I've found that schizophrenics

will try to explain the extraordinary nature of their experience

by using one of

these basic rubrics. In our culture explanations for unexplainable rather sparse.

My

tions for such

phenomena.

JSP: What

supposition

are your thoughts

is that

other cultures

may have

phenomena

are

different explana-

on the mind-body problem?

OSCAR: This is related to the problem of consciousness, but isn't quite the same thing.

with

The mind-body problem

how the "soup becomes

is, I

guess, as old as the

a spark."

How is

it

human

race.

It

has to do

that the material world,

and the

material substrate of ourselves, can give rise to something that seems to be of a different universal order, that of thought?

Obviously consciousness stands somewhere

between rial

this

maneuver of going from mate-

things to thought.

,.

consciousness

stands somewhere be-

Brain function simultaneously

that occur. .

.

..

.

i

coexists with thought processes, and teracts in a

.u this in-

maneuver ffQm |f|flfe-

.

Qf •

i+i

•

+

*i

#

*

rial things d to thought. d

dynamic fashion. That's one theory.

Another theory

is

that the brain,

gives rise to what

we

third notion is

The

vitalist

is

a dualistic approach to the problem.

simply that mind

brain from the outside in explanation.

being so complex and convoluted, spawns or

experience as thinking, which seems to have a semi-

independent existence. This

The

ms

twem

There are several different propositions

some

is

also spirit, and this

strange way. This

is

is

imposed on the

a theological sort of

notion claims that the life-force gives rise

189

to,

or at least

Janiger

coexists with, the soul, which after the death / ve

never had a prob-

of thc matcria host leaves and finds ,

notion that

lent with the

whcre

material substance could

some .

clsc to rcside

\\ c never had

problem with the no-

a

give rise to immaterial

tion that material substance could give rise to

energy.

immaterial energy.

It's

not odd to conceive

of the fact that you can build a machine out of

comes electrical energy, or that you can press a button and out of these batteries comes a beam of light from your flashlight. So the light doesn't seem to me any more miraculous in relationship to the batteries than does the thought process coming out of the material aspect of the brain. material substances and that out of

DJB: Or

same goes

the

for

it

magnetic

fields.

They're defined as non-material

regions of influence on the material world.

OSCAR:

You

Yes.

could

make

own

a

machine where the

some

back on and regulate

it's

Barbara Brown

bio-feedback laboratory in

my

to see

in her

brainwaves

I'm watching

my

in the

my own

could argue that

if

my watching them,

I

and

in turn

just took in.

at the

same

it,

time. They're

so I'm never really seeing the

brain.

someone

was watching my brainwaves

else

sending out something else which

they

that information

subtly influenced by what

is

I

This has been called the auto-cerebroscope, a device where you see

something happening ing

itself

I

got the notion that as

might get a different notion, but I'm watching them, I'm taking in

could turn

When

worked with Sepulveda Virginia, I was able

brainwaves, I'm changing them

objective evidence of

electricity

extent.

form of patterns on a screen.

constantly being influenced by

You

existence to

you change

that projects

content.

its

philosophical dilemma

is

what your brain

Do you

registering, but in witness-

is

ever see things as they really are? This

never more clearly outlined than

when under

these

conditions.

DJB: What

are

some of

psychiatry today and

main problems

the

how do you

think

that

it

by the

1

OSCAR:

Boy, you've

really got a tiger

emphasis

ot psychiatry

and neuropathology of the

was reduced illnesses

well.

It

were the

result of pathological

did not provide a

So when

the

notion of the

to the simplistic

you see with

we can improve tail

there! last

mind

processes

dynamic framework

for

the state oi

for the future?

think that the material

century, where everything as a switchboard, and

in the

brain

itself,

all

didn't set

understanding human behavior.

emphasis changed, and Freud and others came on the scene for

modern dynamic psychology,

I

suspect the

the opposite direction. 190

pendulum swung equally

too far

in

OscarJaniger

The heyday of psychoanalysis and depth psychology then ushered

kind

in a

of behavioral construct that seemed to be dependent only upon the dynamic

thought process, and

we were

left

was mirrored very well that the

we

The

any kind of physical explanation. So

to

and feeling

in

I

was

I

couldn't find a suitable research prospect.

where

I

could show that the state of the body influenced thinking

in a specific

me

and told

week

that a

you can count on because of this

So using

that concept,

this strategy.

their period,

have

was

I

I

I

found

I

said, "That's

made

into serious states of

struck by the fact that

is

what I'm looking

for!"

human behavior was a woman metronome

a wonderful biological

that

reliable episodic lunar event.

began that

changes

terrible

feelings and thinking.

who

prior to her period she experiences profound

realized that an optimal experimental subject for

employing

couldn't get a

I

way. That was supplied serendipitously by a lady

because of her menstrual period. She

went

think

my own studies. was interested in finding out the way

depression. Suddenly a light went on and I

I

feel.

trouble

definitive case

in

little

chemistry of the brain and the state of the body influences our thoughts

and the way

came

very

trapped in constant psychological formulations of all our behavior. This

to plan a series of behavioral events

some women regularly, about a week before demeanor:

in their general

a study of three or four

good

their behavior,

clinical subjects,

who

mental change around that time. In studying them

all

of them seemed compelled to give

I

me psychologi-

cal explanations of their behavior.

woman would say, "Well, I had a made me depressed." And I said,

For example, a

yesterday; that's what

because you had a fight with him

And

last

So then

I

went

to

ena by saying, well, a

woman

is

is

is

a ubiquitous

I

make you

depressed.

same time

at the

week

this

phenom-

or so she's going to bleed.

being castrated and her penis was removed, so

Another analytical interpretation

is that this

reminder of her feminine identity and that she was therefore

That's a good one.

decided to use progesterone as a means of seeing

problem of premenstrual depression.

my

husband

it

afraid that in a

shouldn't she be depressed?

inferior.

to

didn't

seemed very odd. the psychoanalytical texts. They explained

This suggests to her that she

fear

it

every month you have a fight with your husband exactly

and you get depressed." She agreed

why

week and

my

fight with

"Yes, that's interesting

residents

when

I

took this

she was depressed.

I

said,

her any question you want, except one, which I

These

who knew

residents,

I

could break into the I

presented her case

"I'm going to allow you

I'll

keep

make of

to

ask

At

the end of

this

woman?"

to myself."

asked the group, "Well, what do you

the presentation

if

woman and

quite a bit of psychiatry said, "There's

no question

that she has classical clinical depression."

Since pure progesterone either

is

not absorbed through the gut, you have to give

by injection or vaginal suppository. So 191

I

devised an experiment.

I

it

double-

Janiger

'

m\

blinded

was w

progesterone.

Then

lueh.

1

I

injected the material

charted the

randomly and didn't know which

symptoms and found, when

I

broke the code,

women

progesterone had an extremely salutary effect in relieving these

mptoms. began to see clear evidence of a substance in the body supply, was markedly influencing the behavior of these women.

menstrual in

short

s\

gave

1

before the Medical Society and outlined what

hormonal problem, and ...the people in the group were skeptical and some said. "You

had done.

implications for the

way

were skeptical and some

know

that

'

that s stiU "

isn t worried about

it

at

said,

body

influ-

in the

group

"How do you

some unconscious factor They said,

isn't

°P eratin g regardless?"

proven that he *" isn,t w ° ^jf* ned about her castration / fears. You ve only proven

r-

that if

you give her progesterone,

could be modified, but you haven't attacked the basis of the problem."

How could do that? Psychoanalysis has an answer for everything. went my brightest women medical students, and asked, "How would you I

I

two of

like to

there,

I

spend the summer

their

in

Europe?

want you

I

to

go

to all the primate centers

and find out: do great apes have a menstrual cycle similar

want you

keepers and find out

to talk to the

behavior

months to

said

Y™

her castration fears."

to

I

this as a

had certain

it

the

-

haven't proven that she still

that

ences tne mind The people

. .

that

I

premenstrual depression could best be treated by looking

that

that,

I

a talk

that

of pre-

had

I

is

from

all

the

European zoological gardens.

Olga, said,

"A week before her period

she does

throw

At

my

to

humans?

I

they have any reason to suspect that

any different during their menstrual cycle." For the next three

letters

discover that in the Berlin zoo, Fritz,

is

if

all

kinds of shit

at

I

who

We were excited

took care of a female gorilla named

can't get nearOlga, she's just a mess. All

me."

next opportunity to present

I

said,

"Ladies and gentlemen,

I

have

discovered that the gorillas have feminine identification problems, and they also

have castration f

\

fears,

because they can get very upset before

their period."

cryone applauded and started to laugh. That was the beginning of

standing of

how mental and emotional

biochemistry. This

is

my

under-

difficulties could be correlated with one's

the basis for the treatment of depression by altering one's

neuroehemistrv.

DJB: So part of the problem was that people were locked into the idea mind could only be affected by the body and not the other way around?

OSCAR:

Yes.

I

think the 0VC1 -emphasis on psychodynamics, in deriving every-

thing from psychological theory, retarded us from reaching the that the British

that the

made. lor

American psychiatry.

a

In tact,

same conclusions

long time this perspective stalemated progress it

was

difficult to 192

achieve an\ academic status

in in

Oscar Janiger

psychiatry without having taken psychoanalytic training. At present, psychiatric

which

residents are less inclined to enter psychoanalytical training programs,

may

JSP: So treat

opinion on pscyhoanalysis as an effective treatment.

reflect their

American psychiatry, there was

in

a initial reluctance to use drugs to

emotional problems.

OSCAR:

Right. In that sense

European psychiatry was much more progressive. In

fact, most of the innovations in psychiatry came from Europe. And you would wonder why, considering the status of American medical research and the abundance of psychiatrists. The British were making strong gains with psychotropic medication that we adopted later on. When you come to think of it, Freud was European, as well as Jung. Menduna in Hungary and Bini and Cerlucci in Italy were the first to use insulin and electro-shock therapy. Neuroleptic drugs were first

developed

in

France. Psycho-drama and Gestalt therapy had European and South

African origins. The basis for Behavioral therapies originated in Russia. quite remarkable

It's

We're good record

at

at

how

little

innovation

we have

taking what they give us and grinding

it

brought to the

out, but

we have

field.

a poor

innovation in the field of psychiatric treatment. Also, psychiatrists have

been more locked experiments

we

into their therapeutic

systems with

ran close to a thousand people, and

little flexibility.

we found

tended to have negative experiences. The ministers were next. The

in a particular

JSP: What about

OSCAR:

In

in the field

is

had the

a strong

of psychobiology and psychopharmacology?

psychobiology the situation

research in psychobiology

my LSD

artists

It would seem that the psychiatrist has norm or standard of reality.

most positive experiences. investment

In

that psychiatrists

is

a

little

different.

I

think a lot of the

relatively freer of the psychological bias than the

more progressive. Psychopharmacology is where the action is. The medicines have been remarkable. Even so, there's been no remarkable new anti-depressants. There's been a span of about twenty years between the last ones, which were the tricyclics, to the new ones of Prozac and Zoloft, which came out recently. All in all, the psychologists have stolen a great march on the psychiatrists. They're more accessible and they speak a language which the public finds easier to understand, and they pander to the public's fear clinical

work, and

of medicines and

in that respect,

pills.

DJB: Why do you

think that there's such a fear and resistance against using

chemicals

to heal the

OSCAR:

We're

mind?

a drug-phobic culture. It's a contradiction in terms because 193

we

We 're

consume more drugs than in any other country We make a strange distinction between various kinds of pills. Somebody ought to

a drug-phobic

culture.

do pills arc

a research paper

You

acceptable and others are not.

on

see people

on why certain

that,

who

take handfuls of

in the morning, and they go to a herbalist and take herbs which they know nothing about. But many have great reservations about "drugs."

vitamins

I).|

B:

1

w

as talking to a friend about the anti-depressants.

should be able to do

phone

the

o\'

call,

it

he

by themselves and not starts telling

something for his allergies

OSCAR:

Yes.

JSP: What

is

We

have

he

that

this

me

felt

rely

He

said, "I think

on drugs." But then

at

people

end

the

about this herbalist that recommended

had an amazing

effect.

funny schizophrenia about

pills.

your view on bridging alternative medical modalities, such as

acupuncture and herbalism, with modern methods?

OSCAR:

For ten years I was Research Director on the board of an organization

Homes

the

tional

We

Center.

gave sums of money

and unorthodox treatment methods. So you can see where I'm

Center was the

One

at.

call

unconven-

to scientifically validate

The Homes

and, for a long time, the only organization to be doing that.

first

was for Stephen LaBerge 's work in lucid dreaming. Some we funded was in support of energy healing, biofeedback and So I'm very much in favor of the scientific exploration of alterna-

of the grants

of the other work acupuncture. tive

methods, but not just accepting them unreservedly without discrimination.

DJB: You told me about the theory of an emoting machine that embodied complex array of emotions. Could you explain this concept to us?

OSCAR:

It

was an extension of things

I

had seen and read, but

I

put

it

in a

the

new

form, which hypothesized that emotions have a kind ot quantitative nexus. That

means

composed of particles, just

that they are

the final analysis

emotions are

a

like

form of energy

photons

that

have

in a

beam

a pulse or

of

quanta

the electrons in an electrical field .

f

/ see

mg

.

emotions as .

.

relat-

.

.

to cognitive experi-

ence

in the

music score movie.

same way a relates to

a

light. In

like

Once you

assume that emotions can be quantified and .

.

.

.

.

measured, then they no longer need

M

m

be

vaguc amorphous lhm , th;it mc[ UU] Ihal sccms to arisc m

lhis

|USl p(Hirs

some

.

to

Strange, spontaneous way. and has no

form or substance.

We know 194

something of that part of the

Oscar Janiger

brain that specifically regulates emotions

emotions are engendered, and

in

it's

called the limbic system. Here,

some way made appropriate for the occasion. I same way a music score

see emotions as relating to cognitive experience in the

movie. The musical score

relates to a

anything about the specific action, but the experience that fleshes

it

all out.

it

doesn't

it

tell

you

lends a kind of overtone, a richness to

For example,

Chariots of Fire without the musical score.

same way.

not discursive,

is

I

it's

hard to imagine seeing

think emotions act in very

much

the

believe that emotions can be traced and channeled.

I

Some day we may have a way of regulating emotions, and devise a system of emotions just like we have a grammar of logic or cognitive effects. In theory, it is possible that a machine could be made that could emote, but we're a long way off from that. In order to do this, emotions would have to be reduced to some formula, using the analogy of color. red, blue

They

are like the three primary colors.

and yellow, every other nuance of color

once said

that

created.

is

I

think

runs into the thousands, the discernible hues

it

Out of

somebody

we

can

see.

Thousands, can you imagine that?

So

you can get a vast array of emotions from three primary emotions. Fear, anger and love would seem to be the most basic and reasonable choices. Out of fear, love and anger, mixed in the proper tinctures and proportions, you might get such complicated emotions as indignation, apprehension and so on. All these fancy sounding ones. But there are two which don't seem to fit in. One is curiosity and the other is disgust. I had a lot of fun with this, it's figured

I

really off-the-wall stuff.

assume

Let's

love and anger in that

that this is possible, that the

body

is

some way. The limbic region may be

equipped to create the generator.

fear,

We found

emotions are mediated through the nervous system and they are transmitted

through specialized neurons in the form of chemical messengers called neuro-

which seem

transmitters It is

a very elegant

to carry

way

an emotional charge.

of thinking, that emotions are transmitted through

chemical interchange. That was proven by the fact that

if you alter the mind or the brain. So you now have a beginning theory for emotions as having some substrate in material things that could be quantified. This leads to some way of building an emotional model that may work.

this

chemistry, then you alter the emotional content of the

JSP: What

is

your view with regard

to the evolutionary process

of male-female

relationships?

OSCAR: The word relationship in this context is a bothersome one. and

women

How

they

have certain attributes

manage

to coordinate

I

think

men

that are native to their individual biology.

them

is

something

amount of tolerance and understanding for what 195

is

that requires a

tremendous

unfamiliar to the other person.

think thai

I

men and women have

between them, and not assume superior quality than the other.

assuming It's

there are none.

I

it's

the difficulty in discriminating

there are differences;

an issue of

between

ences and their resolution. The problem here anil that

appreciate the differences

have a more

that either of those differences

And

think

somehow

to

how mature

I

the

the biological

is that

think the danger

human

race gets.

and cultural

they are hopelessly

differ-

mixed up,

has to be sorted out before you can say anything definitive about

example,

all

is

it.

For

kinds of cultural values are placed on behavior which has nothing to

do with biology.

DJB: Well

OSCAR:

culture and biology are quite intertwined.

Yes, they're intertwined, but there

that

men and women

was

a time in the

is

a

way of studying

this in relative

Now you have a group of people who feel

respect to the circumstances involved.

live differently in different conditions.

That

is to

world when things were primitive and presumably

say, there-

better,

and

our modern problems are really the result of industrialization and male su-

premacy and egotism. Women,

an effort to become compensatory have

in

become goddesses. These changes but

I

in historical

conditions

wouldn't go any further with

established prejudices on this issue.

nary contribution in their

and

men make

own

I

made

that,

these differences exaggerated,

because

think basically

it's

too easy to

women make

biology, so to speak, and

its

fall

into

an extraordi-

mental equivalence,

their contribution.

JSP: What kind of philosophy do you think people should adopt

regard to

in

social responsibility in general?

OSCAR:

I

think what

we need more

than anything else

interest.

Selfishness

what we need more than anything else is en-

I think

somehow at

YOU

not the

enlightened

same

self'

as selfishness.

gaining something

at

the cx-

-

in

we have

is

is

P ense of othcrs Enlightened self-interest

lightened self-interest.

stead ol that

This

is

nourishing and gaining something

terms of ourselves and what the

charity and sacrifice

is

expense

we

need, not

of others. Unfortunately, in-

which only compounds

the problem.

can sec clearly that I'm not one of the holy types. Let your mothers and lathers take care of themselves. Freud said the most

important Story he ever) heard

middle carrj

ol the

was of

a

mother bird carrying

a little bird

on

its

birds and she carried them across the channel. In the channel the mother bird said, "When am old and sick, would >ou

hack. There were three

little

me on your back?" The

I

first

bird said, "Yes, mother, I'd be I9t

happy

to."

And

Oscar Juniper

the

mother turned over and dumped the bird. The second bird, the same problem. third bird, however, said, "No, I won't carry you on my back, I'll carry my

The

children on

my

back."

Think about

Your obligation the right thing,

If

it.

is to

everyone here did

we'd have no more problems. on your back. If she did She would have already prepared,

that,

carry your children, not your mother

you wouldn't have

to carry her.

you're going to prepare for your children. That's what I'm talking about

like

enlightened self-interest.

DJB: Oz, you've worked with and interacted with many of the outstanding minds of our time. Who have been some of the most important influences in your development and where have you found inspiration when you needed it?

OSCAR: me

Well, Aldous Huxley has been a real source of inspiration to me. Let

give you an example.

I

was on

the stage of the Ebel Theater as part of a three

man who

doctor team, to examine a

professed to be able to lower his blood

pressure, stick pins through his cheeks, and remain buried alive in some way where he could get no air. I was to examine him, along with the other two doctors, to see that

He

he wasn't faking.

stuck a hatpin right through his hand.

that dutifully to the audience.

He

said he

It

didn't bleed, and

would then lower

we

reported

his blood pressure to

50 over 30, a level at which I felt a person couldn't live. I took his blood pressure and it was high about 180 over 110, and I reported that. Then he huffed and

—

He

puffed and went into a trance. again.

It

was 110 over 70 and

That evening

we met

I

this issue

theater that morning.

And

I

He

went on

said he to

then

that so

came up and I

would lower

lament

we

took his blood pressure

with Aldous, his wife Laura, Anais Nin and her

husband Rupert, and faking.

got rigid, and then

reported that to the audience.

said,

his

I

recounted

"So you can

my

experience

clearly see that this

at the

man was

blood pressure to 50 over 30, and he didn't."

many

of these so-called miracle workers are

Then Aldous looked at me. He said, "Dr. Janiger." I said, "Yes?" He said, "Don't you think it was remarkable that he was able to lower it at all!" A light went on in my head. From that moment on, I got charlatans.

I

a lesson that

Then

was very

I

self-righteous.

always remembered.

there

was Alan Watts, who I had the good fortune to know and to be life. He was a remarkably intelligent man, probably

his physician for part of his

the best conversationalist

guy.

He

I

lived his life to the

which he was

ever met. hilt.

a featured guest.

We

A witty, went

very open, candid person

to see

The audience was

one of filled

his television

-

shows

So

at

little

in

with hippy-type kids and

everyone was fascinated. During the performance he was smoking these cigarellos; they're like

great

little

round cigars.

the end of the performance a 197

hand shot up. "Mr. Watts. You

tell

us

about

life,

how

and

to be tree and liberated. Then why are you smoking these Old Alan, when he would get excited, one of his eyes would drift

terrible cigars?"

le had this funny look and knew something was young man and he said, "Do you know why I smoke Because I like it!" So that's Alan for you, and it tells the story

0\ ei to the corner of his head.

coming. He looked these

little

cigars?

of his whole

life. If

at

I

I

the

that's Zen,

more power

to him.

Another incomparable man was Gerald Heard. He could get up, give a lecture, and you could transcribe it, with footnotes and all, and it was ready for publication.

It

came

out flawlessly.

was

It

a seamless performance.

Somebody

an audience once asked him, "Could you say a few words on architecture?"

in

So

Gerald replied, "What kind of architecture?" He said, "Oh, British architecture." "What year of British architecture?" He said, "Well, let's say about the end of the nineteenth century." "Precisely what period are you referring to young man?" He said, "Well, the 1890's." Gerald said, "Would you say the first half of the 1890's?" He said, "Yes." Then Gerald went off for an hour and a half on architecture in England during the first half of the 1890's. It was a virtuoso performance. Aldous said to me that he thought Gerald was the best informed man alive. Coming from Aldous, that was quite a compliment. Then there were people I didn't know, but read. Great influences were Joyce,

An

Camus and

Bertrand Russell. These were people

incomparable writer named B. Travin added a

human

nature.

I

get

more from what

behavior, than any text. Sometimes

from Dostoevsky and Conrad than

I

way; by interacting with people as

if

great

who meant

lot to

my

a lot to

me.

understanding of

minds have written about human I have learned more psychology

feel that

I

have from Freud.

I

approach

my practice that

they were protagonists in their

own dramas.

That way you can't be biased.

way Proust described the Tower of Combrey. He said, if you in the morning light, and in the really want to know the tower you must see evening light. You must see it in the winter time covered with snow. You must sec in the summer time. You must see it in the mist, and you must see from above and from below. sometimes with eyes half closed. You must see You must see from the east, north, south and west. Then you'll begin to know the Tower of Combrey. It

was

the

it

it

it

it

it

DJB: Oz, have you ever given any thought

to whafl

happens

human conscious-

to

ness alter physical death?

OSCAR: thought

I've

M>

given

bias

ol individuality.

is I

a lot

that

hat

is

of thought

when

to

it,

the current

the only

way

I

is

much productive we somehow lose our sense

but I'm afraid not shut oti.

can put

it.

Shakespeare called death

Strange bourne from which no traveller doth return."

No

returned trom this journey, so there's no direct evidence, except people 19S

"that

traveller has ever

who

say

Oscar Janiger

they have. Well, you can decide for yourself

whether they have or In any case,

myself only,

my

thought

that, for

is

I'm simply shut

that

/ always remember the Big Bang as the biggest

not.

orgasm

down in my

in history.

—

somehow I which is now a kind of fruitless phrase am somehow restored to the earth, or to the matrix,

present state, and that

—

or to what the

go back

orgasm

Germans

called the urschlime, or the fundamental substrate of

fundamental primitive primordial stuff of which

things, the

Big Bang.

to before the

I

all

we are constituted. We

always remember the Big Bang as the biggest

in history.

How has your experience with psychedelic drugs influenced your life, your

JSP:

work and your

OSCAR:

practice?

me out of a state in which I saw me very rigorously prescribed, to in which I saw that many, many things were possible. This created for me In a

word

the boundaries of a state

profoundly.

really took

It

myself and the world around

dynamic equilibrium. I used a phrase at any given moment. It's a means that when you report your position

a sense of being in a kind of flux, a constant at that

how

time to designate

thought of myself

I

nautical term called a "running fix." in a

—

moving

you are only talking about now.

vessel,

the here and

The

It

illusion of living in

there are a great into another

many rooms.

one room has now given All you have to do

room, and see what's

you're living in

there

is all

DJB: Could you

tell

OSCAR:

Yeah!

use in the

Amazon

a specific time

and circumstance

rise to the illusion that

get out into the corridors,

is

is.

us about your discovery of

DMT?

a psychoactive ingredient of the hallucinogenic

It is

go

Otherwise you'll think that the room

there.

called Ayahuasca.

An

brew they

analysis by chemists revealed that

contained a substance called dimethyltriptamine,

DMT.

it

This was unusual be-

was almost identical to a chemical found naturally in the body, and it make sense that we'd carry around with us such a powerful hallucinogen. Nevertheless, a friend of mine, Parry Bivens and I, purified some dimethyltriptamine. We had it all set up one evening. It was thought to be inactive orally by itself. To be on the safe side, we thought we'd inject it into one another the following day.

cause

it

didn't

So Parry

We left

that I

said he'd see

had nothing

me was I

I

me to

morning and we'd go ahead and try it out. go by as it had never been used before. So when Parry

in the office

in the

looking

should take a shot of this

said, like

Hofmann,

I'll

at

stuff.

these bottles, and

But

I

had no idea of

be conservative and take a 199

got this devilish thought

I

cc.

I

how much

to take.

backed myself up

So

to the

— HcerJoiuger

(

wall until

on

OOllldgono further SO

1

man,

was

I

I

had

to inject

myself in the

a strange place, the strangest.

in

I

was

rear.

And from

then

was

like

world

in a

that

being inside of a pinball machine. he only thing like

I

a

man

is

it,

oddly enough, was

trapped inside of a crystal.

was

It

movie

in a

called Zardoz,

angular, electronic, filled with

of Strange over-beats and electronic circuits, flashes and movements. like

It

kinds

looked

an ultra souped-up disco, where lights are coming from every direction. Just extraordinary.

.

,

,,

server would

go back u •

.

,

a pinball machine. r

out. f I

each time

looked

lay

I

on the

my watch.

at

head and

when on between

television set looks

Finally

my

It

the brain

itself.

fraction of this

I

i

this

was

it

n like

a dying. •

i I

dance of the molecules

for all the world, felt like the

way

a

pictures.

think what

would give you

was looking

I

lightened up and

it

I'd thought at

was

I

had been

I

in that

the archetonics of

a profound effect.

came back

Well,

So

in that

dose range

I

think

I

the next day, and he said, "Well, let's

North Pole ahead of you."

said, "I got to the

DJB: That took

OSCAR:

the

We learned later that that was an enormous dose. Just smoking a

just busted everything up. Parry

some."

I,

•

a blacked out

had been forty-five minutes. I

go unconscious;

had a sense of terror because

ui

time seemed endless. Then

floor;

place for two hundred years.

I'd

come back intermi « ent 'y> thcn I

went through and electrons inside of

Then

observer was knocked out. Then the ob-

was in a world that nm- like being inside of

/

try

where

all

a lot of courage.

it

was

foolhardiness.

hear you've been doing some interesting work with dolphins and DJB: Olympic swimmers. Perhaps you could tell us a little about this project. I

OSCAR:

Albert Stevens, Matt Biondi and

we might

find an

—

got the idea several years ago that

way of approaching wild

innovative

01) mpic swimmers

I

the best in the world.

It

because they are tree-ranging and peripatetic.

were reported

When

the)

filming. still in

We

to be, fifty

in

it

these dolphins

We

went

doing

that

tor three years

whom we

to

wild dolphins

where

Bahama

the dolphins

Island.

We waited.

with them, and did a great deal o\ underwater

studied the film to try to find out

did

dolphins, by using

difficult to study

miles off the coast of Grand

came we jumped

the process of

We

is

how

and we're

the dolphins behave,

now.

and developed a ^hk\ working relationship with

were now able

to identify.

Dolphins are strange and

beguiling creatures. Their language seems totally incomprehensible, as

our

own

language

to

be nothing like

it

whatsoever.

It

appears

to

he

we know

a different

Oscar Janiger

What stories the dolphins we could only communicate

order of communication. alien

world of water

DJB: The tion

if

Could you

final question.

and any other current projects

OSCAR: ago.

I

Well,

could bring back from their

with them.

Hofmann Founda-

us about the Albert

tell

working on?

that you're

co-founded the Albert Hofmann Foundation about three years

I

was involved

in

LSD

research from 1954 to 1962. During that time

I

accumulated a large store of books, artwork, papers, correspondence, tape-

which probably the psychedelic history of Los

recordings, newsclippings, research reports and memorabilia

represented a fair sample of what went on in

Angeles and elsewhere. information that

is

I

was aware

that there is a great deal of this kind

of

scattered and isolated and in danger of being lost or destroyed.

Collected and organized this would provide an extremely valuable resource for future research I

and

historians.

was approached by

these unique records. fitting to

We

who were committed

several people

formed a non-profit organization

man who

be named in honor of the

LSD

discovered

to preserving

that

we

felt

was

and psilocybin

Albert Hofmann.

He was most gracious in his acceptance and pledged his whole-

hearted support.

It is

based

in

Los Angeles and functions solely as a library, We have collected a great deal of

archives and information center at this time. relevant material

from the pioneers of psychedelic research;

Allen Ginsberg, Stan Grof, I

Humphrey Osmond and many

Laura Huxley,

got back an enthusiastic response from most of the leaders of this

movement. The foundation provides the only open forum for the legitimate discussion of

"Oh mv

where people can discuss ideas about their own expenv

these issues.

It

offers a place

.,

ences under these various agents. prised to learn

how many

T I

was

people

who

million years

I

it

was a won-

derfid experience!" said

~ tJ a sixty-five-year-old ». + . * P™fessor of Medial .

sur-

.

«

5()s, and

began using psychedelics such as LSD and ketamine in the solitude of the tank about a decade later. Lilly 's seminal work with cetaceans, recounted in the hooks Man and Dolphin, The Mind of the Dolphin, and Lilly on Dolphins, inspired a generation to rethink the relationship between humans and other species. His incredible journeys through inner space were documented in popular hooks such as The Center of the Cyclone and The Scientist, and his guidelines for using psychedelics were published under the title Programming and Mctaprogramming the Human Biocomputer. We interviewed John at his house in Malihu on the night of February 16, 1991. John spoke enthusiastically to us about

how

his early scientific research influenced his later explorations in

consciousness, the distinction between insanity and outsamtv, IX

Coincidence Control Office) and he discussed his ideas about

makes

(he brain sensitive to

microwaves, so that

it

'(

'()

(the Earth

how ketamine

can pick up television and

radio signals. John has a reputation for being extremely unpredictable, and he

has

this

sometimes disconcerting tendency

their basic assumptions.

John's child-like

make one conlmously redefine curiosity and ruthlessly analytical to

mind make him both playful ami profound. He seemed like an Zen master, and was in high spirits when we interviewed him.

extraterrestrial

—DJB

204

_J

John

DJB: John, what was

it

your

that originally inspired

C. Lilly

interest in neuroscience

and

the nature of reality?

JOHN:

At age sixteen,

in

my

prep school,

I

wrote an

brain activity and brain structure. sciences, and there

took

I

my

first

Dartmouth Medical School where the University of Pennsylvania

about the brain than

RMN:

can

I

tell

I

I

went

I

my

CalTech

to

paper

article for the school

called "Reality, " and that laid out the trip for the rest of

life

—thought versus

to study the biological

went on

to

took another course in neuroanatomy, and

at

course in neuroanatomy. Later

I

So I learned more

studied the brain even further.

you.

what ways do you think your Catholic background influenced your

In

mystical experiences?

JOHN:

At Catholic school I learned about tough boys and beautiful

love with Margaret Vance, never told her, though, and

understand about sex so

I

it

was

girls.

incredible.

visualized exchanging urine with her.

My

fell in

I

didn't

I

father had

one of these exercise machines with a belt worn around your belly or rump and a powerful electric motor to make the belt vibrate.

my

vibration stimulated

Suddenly

my body

fell

being was enraptured. I

didn

t

know what

did and sin.

I

going

was

my whole

/ l€ft the church think(ng^ "If they're going to caU a gift from God a

incredible.

went to confession the following mom"

I

he meant, then suddenly

I

ing and the priest said,

I

said,

called

it

morUd

to call a gift

God, they're

RMN: What

I

sin,

then to hell with them. That isn't

is

your personal understanding of God? seven years old

saw God on

I

had a vision alone

man

his throne: an old

in a Catholic church.

with a white beard and white hair

surrounded by angels and the saints parading around with a the mistake of asking a I I

my

just trying to control people."

I

So

hM

tQ

»

a mortal

from God a mortal

JOHN: When was

visions!"

thm

$i

*u

../,

the church thinking, "If they're

left

Suddenly

"Do you jack.off?

He

"No."

was on this machine and all the

erogenous zones.

apart and

It

I

assumed kept that

nun about the vision and she

that she thought

I

wasn't a

memory, and on my

Beethoven's Ninth Symphony.

And

first

I

I

onto an experience

it

if

one

is

going to talk about if

you are going 205

I

relived

it

realized that the

constructed this to explain the experience he had.

can't be said in words. But

of music.

"Only

I

saints

made have

saint.

acid trip

suddenly

lot

said,

completely to little

boy had

realized that one has to project

because the experience

to talk

about

it

itself

you choose words

^^

which you

.

has to project onto an experience if one IS going to talk about it beCause the experience itself can V be said in words. ...one

lha(

come

Well,

when

to a certain

we say angels. And Well,

started

I

91

t

man

physiology;

it

God evolved

un-

with whitc hair be .

was something

It

inside,

over time as a result of

LSD

going out on the universe with

entities

and but

in the tank, I'd

I

But as Olaf Stapledon says

cot to the Starmaker.

()ld

I

had donc

,

the inner reality.

some people

turned out

it

M

scven ycar

I'd say, "Are you God?" And they'd say. God is way up there somewhere with the no matter how big they were, God is bigger. So finally

group of

that to

;1

'

:isn

Has youi understanding or idea of changing our experiences?

JOHN:

;is

causc thc pre-programming was there.

w

RMN: \

lhat

saw an

,

most appropriate.

feel arc

describe the Starmaker in

human

terms.

in his

He was

book,

it's

impossible to

well aware of the bullshit of

language. call

I

more

ECCO

God

satisfying to call

it

now. The Earth Coincidence Control Office. that.

It's

much

A lot of people accept this and they don't know that God

was big enough. As the astronomer said to the Minister, "My God's astronomical." The Minister said, "How can you relate to something so big?" The astronomer said, "Well, that isn't the problem, your God's too small!" they're just talking about

D.I

B:

God.

I

found a

finally

Do you think that the concept of objectivity

is

separating the experimenter from the experiment

JOHN:

private and

you don't allow anybody

often

somebody

find

tank outsanity

is

gone.

is

that

I

Now,

can talk

to

outsanity

about yours.

Now,

if

impossible?

about

is

a

word

I

life

it.

fell into.

it's

prefer the It's

very

so crazy. Every so

When you go

into thc isolation

what we're doing now,

my

I

inside yourself.

because

it's

exchanging

insanity and you're not talking

our insanities overlap then

DJB: How would you define what That's

your

is

in there

thoughts and so on. I'm not talking about

JOHN:

valuable, or do you think that

Objectivity and subjectivity were traps that people

terms "insanity" and "outsanity." Insanity

I

that

we

can be friends.

a hallucination is?

never use because

it's

very disconcerting, part of the

explanatory principle and henOC not useful. Richard fevnmen, the physicist,

went

into the tank here

finished he sent

me one

for the hallucinations."

twelve times. He did three hours each time and ot his

physics books

in

when

he

which he had inscribed. "Thanks

John

C. Lilly

So I called him up and I said, "Look, Dick, you're not being a scientist. What you experience you must describe and not throw into the wastebasket called "hallucination." That's a psychiatric misnomer; none of that is unreal that you experienced." For instance he talks about his nose when he was in the tank. His nose migrated

down

to his buttonhole,

and

finally

he decided that he didn't

need a buttonhole or a nose so he took off into outer space.

DJB: And explain

he called that a hallucination because he couldn't develop a model to

it?

JOHN:

But you don't have to explain

it,

you

see.

You just

describe

it.

Explana-

tions are worthless in this area.

RMN: How do you feel about the role that discipline has to play in the process of self-discovery?

JOHN:

It's

absolutely essential.

had

I

thirty-five years of school, eight years of

I was freer than I would have Everybody could say, "Well, that was dissonant," and I would say, "Yes, but I learned what I don't have to know." I learned all the bullshit that's put out in the academic world and I would bullshit too. This

psychoanalysis before even going into the tank. So

been had

I

not had

all that.

bullshit is an insurance that

except that which

RMN:

What

JOHN: My

is

really

I

don't

guidelines do you use

major guideline when

program, don't have a purpose, pen. With ketamine and thing;

I

slowly

experience.

remember the bullshit

let

LSD

I

I

let

when go it

travelling through innerspace?

in the tank

same

did the

go of controlling the

You know some people

experienced. Finally

I

n

a f duction to The really

want

to

rs Deep

c //

Self,

lie in

to

wrote an intro-

my

•£

-a

said, if

experience what

the tank, don't read any of

RMN:

I

a and

it

is

to

is,

for

God's sake don't pre-

hap-

the tank for an hour trying to experience

what

that the professor says,

worthwhile and interesting.

you

be

Jf you

rea lly want to

experience what it is to be in the tank, don't read books „ Just q/ it

•

go in there d

andj be. i_

in

books, don't listen to me, just go in there and be.

So you don't ever try and go

in

with a mission or an idea of what you want

accomplish?

JOHN: Why

should

acid in the tank in

St.

I? I'd

only have gotten more ridiculous. Every time

Thomas

it

was entirely 207

different.

I

think that

I

I

took

couldn't even

.

UU)

only got

LOol

(

Of

and

wrote

begin to describe

it.

mm erse pie^ ents

you from programming and w hen they take you

I

I


tt.

if

we

stimulated the negative system he would push the lexer, shut

and then he'd scold S

i

we

I

us.

See? Then he broke the switch and

just

it

jabbered away

then took the tape ot this over to a friend of mine's house and his tape

machine ran at only half the speed ot what we had recorded in. It was incredible. Dolphin making human sounds. We didn't believe at tust. What he was try ing it

to lU)

can

was

to say. "I

can talk your language,

really get this straightened out S

when

"I'm going

in

I

got

try

this

with

talk to

\

our leaders, then

we

about positive and negative reintorcement."

my laborgam/ed

there to

me

let

I

in

Miami

Ivar."

So

I

1

turned to EllsbrOUgb and

went and shouted

at

I

said.

the dolphin

John

we

He zoomed right back immediately, And finally after about ten

called Elvar, "Elvar! Squirt water!"

And

"Squouraarr rahher." times, he had

so

it

we

said,

I

C. Lilly

"No. Squirt water."

could understand

it.

It

was just an amazing experience.

DJB: Do you think that he had an understanding of what he was saying, or do you think he was just mimicking the sounds?

JOHN:

If

you're experiencing a foreign language, what do you do?

DJB: Well,

JOHN:

the first thing

That's right.

And

And

you do

is

mimic.

slowly but surely, your phenome system masters the

make any

makes sense or not. Then the next thing you have to do is hook the phenomes up and make words. And then you have to hook the words up to make sentences. And then the meaning, the semantic system in your brain, starts working. So we have to go sounds, right?

through

all

it

doesn't

these steps and

if

you're

difference whether

at all

it

smart you'll realize that you have to

have intensive contact with the other language, with someone well.

I

DJB:

learned Swedish that

Right.

So

this

way and

work with

who speaks it very

what we did with the dolphins.

that's

the dolphins,

how

did

it

influence your experi-

ences with ketamine in the isolation tank?

JOHN: people.

Well, I

I

began

wondered what

discovered that dolphins have personalities and are valuable to

wonder about whales which have much

make below

out

we know

it's

I

their capabilities are.

-the dolphin's life is probably as complicated as ours.

There's a threshold of brain size for

language as

larger brains, and

it,

and as

far as

about 800 grams.

I

can

Anybody

chimpanzee or the gorilla can't learn to speak a language. But above that language is acquired very rapidly, as in a baby. Well, this means that the dolphin's life is probably as complicated as ours. But what about their spiritual life? Can they get out of their that, like the

bodies and travel? Are they extraterrestials?

I

asked those kinds of questions.

Most people wouldn't ask them. So I took ketamine by the tank at Marine World in Redwood City. I got in to the tank and I had a microphone near my head and an underwater speaker that went down into the dolphin tank. My microphone hit their loudspeaker under water. So I waited. Then I began to feel that I was in direct contact with them and as soon as I felt that one of them whistled, a long whistle, and it went from my feet right up to my head. I went straight out of my body. They took me to the dolphin group mind. Boy, that was scary!

I

209

shouted and carried on.

I

said, "I can't

even handle one dolphin, much less a group mind of dolphins!" So instead of thai they put me into a whale group mind and when you have an expei ienoe like

>

ou realize

those group minds, not

in

them w

to

ith

ith

ketamine, with

them and them

RMN: Why JOHN:

in

some of the LSD experiences may have been

that

outer space

Since then

I

suspect that they're

all

it

falling in love

with us. All the non-scientific ways.

did you stop doing the English experiments with the dolphins?

Because

I

didn't

want anyone

esoterically with ketamine in the tank,

wouldn't do.

RMN:

at all.

we were not so blind. So we open up pathways LSD, with swimming with them, with falling in love

and carry on with us

read) to talk

w

that,

I

to

speak

to

them. So

and so on, which these

I

did

it

idiots in the

more Navy

was appalled by what they were doing.

Have you ever managed them on their level?

to learn

enough of

their

language to communi-

cate with

JOHN: fast as

slow

it

No, because they're too

fast

and too high frequency. They're ten times as

we are and ten times the frequency. So if you record it on tape and then down ten times you can get an idea. When they're working on human

speech,

at first

they're too fast for you, and then they suddenly realize

it

so they

slow down.

DJB: Have you ever given ketamine

JOHN:

No.

didn't.

couldn't understand what

I

I

thing they did.

it would knock out their respiration. It was happening to them on LSD except for one They turned around along the tank at the same time, and suddenly

gave them acid

they turned their beaks

remember on my stars

first

».

down and

turned on their sonar straight downwards.

earth, so

I

stamped

my

foot

on

I

saw

I

the

the floor to find

it.

were doing.

Pam had been spear-gunned three times by Ricco Browny series. The first time, Pam went over to Browny and pulled the

the dolphin

"Flipper"

in the

to see if

acid trip that suddenly the floor disappeared and

on the other side of the

That's what they

A N(

to a dolphin?

at him and turned away. The or any humans. It was just near him go mad and wouldn't

spear from him. The second time, she took one look third time she ran like

So when we got her she was staying away from us with the other dolphins. all over us. It was marvelous. was enslaved by Boy, I've been trying to stop talking about dolphins.

awful.

So

I

gave her LSI) and she climbed

I

them

tor twenty years

People

like

and

now

I'm trying to avoid them lor

you come out and remind

me 210

ot

them.

a while.

But

I

can't.

John

RMN:

That's wonderful. Okay,

what ways you think to

let's get

the exploration

improve the quality of people's

back

to people.

Could you

C. Lilly

tell us, in

and mapping of the human psyche can help lives

and what about people with mental

disorders?

JOHN: Do that's

you know Thomas Szaz's book, The Myth of Mental Illness? Well where I'm at. I don't believe any of this mental health stuff; it's all bullshit.

Having been through psychoanalysis with a doctor of physics, Robert Beltim that's what I've come to think. He used to analyze analysts, Anna Freud and so on. I started quoting papers from psychoanalysis and finally he said,

from Vienna,

"Dr. Lilly, we're not here to analyze Freud or the psychoanalytic literature; we're here to analyze vow, and you're just avoiding yourself.

you learn

more from me than we'll ever

I've looked at everything.

RMN: What

I

learn

more from you and So that's the way

get in the literature."

Wide open.

do you think about people who suffer from a disruption of People who experience problems in coming to terms with

interior reality?

their

their

inner process in relation to the world around them?

JOHN: Do you know Candice Pert's work? Well, she's found fifty-two peptides mood. As Pert said, "Once we understand the chemistry of the brain there will be no use for psychoanalysis." She said that the brain is a huge, diverse chemical factory. We cannot make generalizations about any one of these yet but, for instance, if you give an overdose of this one people get depressed, if you give an overdose of that one they get euphoria, and so on. If you OD on cocaine your brain changes its operation, but if you're aware of this and you pay attention you realize that yes, it modifies some things, but it doesn't always do it in the same way. So there's this continuous modulation of life versus brain chemistry. So I gave up long ago trying to figure out how the brain works because it's so immense and so complex. We don't yet know how thought is in the brain that control

connected to operations in the brain!

DJB: Do you

brain to see the

using

it

some kind of highly

JOHN: show

would be possible to dynamics of how thoughts

think

No.

It's

create arise

some kind of window

and what

precise combination of

impossible.

EEG

their interaction is

and

MRI

The Positron Emission Topography

the changes in various parts of the brain

into the

by

scannings?

or

PET

and of various substances.

scans

When

compound acts one way, and then another way. But what's that? That's one compound that they're looking at. Imagine what else

the observed person

is

is

learning, a

going on.

211

1).| It:

thai

it

w

w

ill

JOHN: ith

to

pioneer the original electrical brain stimulation

nh the understanding that you've gained

in this area,

do you think

e\ entuall) be possible to directly stimulate brain centers

without using

electrodes,

w

back you helped

V ears

arch,

in

order to create psychedelic experiences?

of brains is very poor without brain electrodes and wreck the brain when you put them in there. That's why quit.

Electrical stimulation

electrodes vou

DJB: So you

I

think then that

it

is

possible to stimulate brain centers without using

electrodes?

Yes. A friend of mine at the University of Illinois showed me a set-up in which he was stimulating a brain at minute spots with focused ultra-sound and

JOHN:

electrical interference.

RMN: Do you think that men and women's brains operate in a very different way? JOHN: You

know, I've been researching

you are another universe

that

I

that for years,

and

finally

I

admit that

can't possibly be in because you're female and

I'm male.

DJB: What

directions

do you think neuroscience should be taking? What are the

most important avenues of exploration?

JOHN: The

science

is

and

to figure out

is

how

who

never g° in S to understand

re

works

-

l

alwa ^ s sa ^

and I'm .

.

.

the

he operates biochemi-

.

J

:

m y brain is

tnat

just

_

a

how

little

rodent

.

running around inside it. The brain owns n *u u a I don t own the brain. A large computer me, 7T i

//

•

'

a big palace, F '

.,

.

We

the brain

i

who the human and how they operate ,

is

,t

i

out4

in

to

call y-

The most important things to do in science is to figlire

do

human

most important things

biochemically.

can simulate it

totally a

cannot simulate

there wouldn't be anything left except the simulation.

sma n cr computer

itself,

because

if

it

but

did

Consciousness would stop

there.

DJB: Could large and it

it

not be possible for

complex enough

would be able

JOHN:

to

that,

understand the

No. because

we

don't

human

although

human

know

it

beings

may

to create a

itself,

brain'.'

the basis lor the

212

computer system

not be able to understand

human

brain.

As Van

John

Neumann

said,

was

it

strictly

addition and subtraction

be

way ahead

of where

DJB: You mean

JOHN:

way

at the

from

a

speed of

what the

to tell

digital operations

just a recovery

now.

are

down your axons,

travelling

operating

we

by accident that we discovered multiplication, we discovered the mathematics of the brain we'd

the binary language?

There's no

can show

first. If

Sleep

is

language the brain uses. Sure, you

hell

of the brain, you can analyze neural impulses

but what are those? Well, as far as

system that's

in the

I

can see they are

middle of the axon, and

that's

Neuronal impulses going down the axons are just

light.

clearing up the laser points so that like sleep.

C. Lilly

it's

ready for the next one, continuously.

which the human biocomputer

a state in

analyzes what went on the previous time

was

it

It's

integrates and

outside, throws out

all

the

memories that aren't going to be useful tomorrow and stores only those memories which will be useful. So it's a process like a big computer in which you have to empty memory and start over. We do this all the time.

DJB: Along

do you think memories are actually memories or something similar.

these lines, I'm wondering,

stored in the brain or do you agree with Rupert Sheldrake's theory that are stored in information fields

JOHN:

I've read

some of Sheldrakes's stuff and he's The universe is

too glib. He's got an

explanation for everything.

much more complicated than he's trying to make it out to be. People tend to do thisI've tried to avoid it. I make fun of my own

_

_

.

I make fun of my own theories

'.

what

I

believe to be true

unbelievable, so that

I

don't believe in anything, you see? Temporarily

theories.

say,

I

order to talk with somebody.

and

ECCO

calls stuff

takes care of

JOHN:

all this. I

memory which

DJB: Do you

Memories

isn't

I

are stored in the feedback with

know how

don't

memory;

it's

may

in

ECCO

they operate, but Sheldrake

living program.

think that the brain acts as a transceiver?

Yeah,

that's right.

The

brain, the

receiver and we're just beginning to see like a

is

TV show on

bio-computer

what

it is.

is

a

huge transmitter/

Have you ever seen anything

ketamine?

DJB: Yeah, with commercials

even.

JOHN:

first

Well, they're

real.

The

time

I

213

saw

that

I

thought,

my

God,

all

we're

!

Joins:

is

thai they're influencing us

morning

the time. Well, this

where

these people

all

realized thai

were

And

increasing the sensitivity of the brain to microwaves.

is

with microwaves

real

it

a

level of

on ketamine,

were interacting and

had got into

I

for instance,

below our

went

TV

problem all

into this place

When came

got involved.

I

soap opera on

I

the

awareness

back

I

and was taking part

in

as

it

if

I

it

\

Now

kids must do this

may

because you

be taken

you got

the time. Marvelous! But

all

watch out

to

and think they're extraterrestial or something,

in

unless you can see something that cues you in that this

is

a

TV

station.

DJB: Have your experiences with ketamine and your near-death encounters influenced your perspective on what happens to

human consciousness

after

biological death?

JOHN: that.

refuse to equate

I

When

was

I

my

planets that l

..Jhe universe is effectively

biological warfare, and

DJB: Do you

may

you but is

I

,

„

realized that the universe

will teach

it

actually

ECCO's

going on as a result of

you something

some kind of

is

effec-

in the process.

learning process that's

positively or negatively reinforcing certain

behaviors so that humanity's evolution

is

guided

JOHN:

is

making progress

had the illusion that humanity

I

so

0ne was being destroyed by atomic energy of war, one was being dethe planet, another one was being destroyed by

hit

think that there

,

planets yet

on and on and on.

kill

PCP

,ake that

A

.

.

stroyed by a big asteroid that

ECCO made me

think

y could educate "*• "d ,he y k

plcnt>

I

ol the hippies,

though

it

my

left

I

feet

fell

before, and

my

1),JB:

What

lifestyle.

Unlike the hippies,

were firmly planted on the ground.

I

I'd

had

was enamored

wasn't easy to adjust to the irresponsibility that often

went along with the idealism. spiritual path a little

former

Still,

I

felt

more

home

at

with them than

me

years of esoteric studies helped

more

to help

I

had ever

them see

the

clearly.

did you think about the sexual revolution?

NINA: deplored it. It was another male chauvinist ploy, though that term was still unknown at that time. It was a perfect example of male domination. Most of the young women knew did not want to sleep with everybody who came their I

I

w

was considered ill-mannered to refuse to get in the sack with all one," they said. The boys loved it, but few of the Besides, I don't believe that freedom means license. Everybody was so

ay. In the sixties,

it

anybody who asked. "We're girls did.

interchangeable

—

bodies, bodies, playing musical chairs.

RMN: Tell us a little about your time at Millbrook, the psychedelic research center where you often stayed with Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert (now

NINA:

Well,

I

didn't exactly stay with them, but

Millbrook mansion

visits to the

in upstate

I

saw a good

New

York.

Ram

Dass).

deal of them on

As

my

a setting for the

exploration of the psychedelic consciousness, the vast estate could not have been

The sixty-four-room mansion and other outbuildings on

more

perfect.

were

in sufficient disrepair to

lend a note of funky eeriness to the scene. Inside,

mingled with the sublime.

the bizarre

It

was

a

combination

monastery, country club, mental hospital and testing ground

methods of

growth and physical healing.

spiritual

people

who

lived there took to

music.

LSD

together

in the

Add

—

o\ research center, for all the

New Age

Indian music, jazz,

was Millbrook. The spacious living room. They lay

incense, beautiful people clad in loose, lovely robes

on mats listening

the estate

You know, when people

that

think of what went on in

those group sessions, they think ot Orgies, wild, Dionysian revelries. I'm sure that these

went on

in

many

places, but in

Millbrook appeared quite sedate.

I

my

remember

a

experience, group sessions

video crew from

a

major

group on acid, and all they saw were some people M cross-legged on the floor chanting Om, Om, ()m". station filming a small

at

TV

sitting

Nina Graboi

RMN:

In the sixties,

stances like

LSD

many

observed very few negative

NINA: There were some ers before psychedelics

ences.

Some of the

individuals experimented with mind-altering sub-

and marijuana, and

yet, as

Why

effects.

do you think

no way

your book, you

was?

were made

had predominantly positive experi-

illegal

negative effects can be traced to the disinformation put out by

government and the sensation-hungry media, but

the

that

in

negative effects, but the great majority of experiment-

were pushed over the edge had been close is

you mention

to screen out

people

who

to

it

before.

in

most cases, those who

It is

unfortunate that there

would be

are at risk, as there

if

these

substances were legally controlled instead of criminalized.

RMN:

Could you

can you specify

NINA:

I

tell

who

us about the dangers involved in taking psychedelics and

should and

who

shouldn't use them?

don't believe psychedelics are for everybody. People

pretty spaced out

need

are already

get grounded. Others with rigid belief systems

first to

find themselves shaken to the core there are those with

who

weak egos.

I

by the collapse of

define the

their

may

valued beliefs. Then

body as a spacesuit and the ego as the on this planet. The

survival kit that contains the instructions that ensure survival

weak ego has not developed its survival skills. It can also get that it needs lots of money and power and possessions to approach psychedelics are

—we

are more!

we

We

should understand that

are

may occur

psychedelic session, and the unprepared

person can have a profound panic reaction. Psychedelics can be used as a therapeutic ,. ir u go deeper into oneself; .u this may best ,

.

and believe

survive. Before

are not

we

what we think we

more than our

bodies. Out-of-body experiences in a

we

inflated

we approach psychedelics we should understand that we are .*_. not what we think we are. Before

,

,

.

,

tool, to

be done

in the

presence of a therapist. They

can also be used as an aid to creativity and to problem solving. But their noblest

and most ancient use

is

as a bridge to the ineffable

dangerous and wasteful use

is to

take

them simply

—

the Higher Self.

The most

for kicks.

DJB: How have your experiences with psychedelics affected your perspective of yourself and the

life

process?

NINA: One of my first discoveries when I entered the psychedelic consciousness was,

"It's all

upside down!" The absurdity of the things on which the world

places the greatest value

when

I

lived

among

came home to me

the

Day Glo colors. I had seen it before, wealthy suburbanites, but now the willingness with 231

in

which people enslaved themselves

producing unnecessary services

to a life of

and ooosumei goods so the) could buj more unnecessary services and consumer

goods struck me with great

came

estate ///

my

one of

owning

words real estate came into my mind, ; and 1 laughed hystenrions, the

how

,

.

and

that

we

exist,

and

saints

of

the

all

y()gis

my

in

it

()t

thc planct!

On LSD,

is?

speak

laughed

I

The

with the hippies

to live

major religions you

scc

-

.

.

.

.

which

of

the

had had bricf hjms

,

so itary meditations, but they i

must

inevitably, this

"dropped out" of a

I

y()L1

had Hashes

come close to the actual we are part of the stream

—

idea of

°° I

mystical

of being

not just to believe, that

aspect of our lives. Like thousands of others,

RMN: Of

mind, and

cosmic consciousness

even apart from our bodies

seemed meaningless

it

words real

sessions, the

my

.

didn't

To know,

a piece

ludicrous

#l of the

cally for half and hour.

experience.

into

hysterically for half an hour.

I SI) ses-

.

my LSD

one of

force. In

who

my

shared

Hinduism

relate to

affect every lifestyle that

my

quest and

the most.

ideas.

What

is

it

about this religious philosophy that attracts you?

NINA: What philosophy.

find particularly attractive

I

It is

very broad in

its

is

the lack of

acceptance of

dogmatism

in eastern

forms of worship and

all

all

kinds

of manifestations of God. Most people need to relate to a personal divinity before they can see that

the West.

And

religions, has

In

my

then there

—

is

no eas\

the impressive fact that

say that

is

it

is

caused by ignorance

monkey, task.

as the

NINA:

I

liberated

—

I

was shocked

Hindus and Buddhists

Today, millions

DJB: What do you

and

know to

think happens to

know nothing about

that

also their approach

is

To

own

true

the in-dwelling God.

to discover that

say.

in

the world

the ignorance of our

—

spiritual

no equal

only Buddhism, of all

no other than the Atman or Buddha nature

yoga was w idely assumed

sixties,

divinities

a brilliant approach to psychology that has

pre-psychedelic meditations,

chattering is

from

never been responsible for a Holy War. There

to desire; they

nature which

God. Hinduism has a variety of

all is

disciplines to choose

still

it

my mind

even for

a

is a

minute

the benefits of meditation, but before the

be no more than

a set

of physical exercises.

human consciousness except that

my

alter death?

consciousness,

is when somehow it

from the body, goes into strange and unfathomable vet came away with from my LSD studies

familiar dimensions. The onl\ certainty

I

m\ body. StrangeK enough, today many New Agcrs see this as and m\ bod\ are one", they sa\. heresy. They call it dualism. "I am what eat. True. I'm no more separate from m\ body than from the air breathe, or from a is

that

I

am

not

I

1

I

rock, or from a

worm.

01

from anything

at all.

So

I

wind up

in a

cosmic goo. But

Nina (iraboi

we have

learned to

name

not me.

I

am

not

me and

my body

it

has grown threadbare

of death as the enemy, yet death ties:

either

I

I

may

or

travelers,

not

and

come back

that

up

is

I

but

I

will

go on. People

life is

endless.

my

We're

all

many people would welcome. As spacesuit

RMN:

endless.

in

our culture think

—

I

is

eternally ascending.

form, but

I

think that

don't like the idea of being

death

is

itself

so

in

we

We are

pain and

doesn't frighten me.

much fear of legalizing it.

too human, and no doubt there will be

On the other hand, to be spared the agony that precedes death is a blessing

abuses. that

it.

our

two possibilisimply, you know, gone so

a spiral that

to the actual death, but

can understand

that

as natural as eating. There are

DJB: What are your thoughts on euthanasia? There

NINA:

is

and

will dis-

to this planet in physical

our journey

stuff that leads

all that

journey

we die and everything is over, we're just

what's there to be afraid of? Or else

may

I

think of

—

is

travellers,

we are

that

^' lin 'i

•••*

what's

any more than

am the air, the rock, or the worm. my body as my spacesuit which card once

we can

things so

distinguish between what's

I'd

is

beyond

be interested

to

know your

view?

NINA: The

is

to bring

body

at birth,

soul enters the

see no reason to be any birth than after death. life. It's

I

hope

to

be able

end

it

once

a crime

from

to

repair!

the spiritual point of

crime

for myself,

ideas

on abortion, Nina.

an unwanted child into the world.

Is

I

it

believe that the

and that the embryo is a spacesuit in the making. I more sentimental about our biological container before

To me,

it

is

simply matter not yet or no longer animated by

interesting to note that the Catholic

church

is

as ready to bring masses of

uncared-for children into this overpopulated world as to bless troops that are

going into

Could there be a connection, I wonder? Are these unhappy for cannon fodder? The pro-life stand of the church is a desperate

battle.

masses needed

attempt to continue to rule by appealing to the flock's self-righteous emotions,

and

in

many

cases, this appeal succeeds.

Former generations took it for granted that it is woman's destiny to bear children. Women were bred to be breeders, but when girls began to receive the same education as boys it became clear that not all women are cut out to be and other contraceptives would generate a new

mothers.

I

approach

to bringing children into the

thought that the

pill

world, making the act of conception a free,

conscious choice rather than a haphazard accident. Today, as

in past generations,

more than ninety percent of all children are the result of an accident, but even some who desire children do so for the wrong reasons. They submit to peer

233

'•

pressure, 01 the) wish to have something that belongs to them, something that

gjvc them the love the) can't find anywhere else.

\\ ill

is

an incoming soul

care.

Ilie

and has

\

—

a visitor

needs

isitor

to learn the native

bringing up

a child

subordinate one's

the) will

own needs and

do so

in the full

RMN: What

is

It

entrusted to our

of the best-kept secrets

desires to those of the

growing

is

that

child. Parenting

behind one's back. In the Utopia

tied

knowledge

and daughters of

the sons

One

make informed choices about welcoming

people will

not property.

is

is

requires a great deal of self-sacrifice and the willingness to

done with one hand

can't be

who

language and the use of the spacesuit

be taught, nurtured and loved.

to

A child

from another dimension

I

envision,

a soul into this world, and

that their children are not their children but

life.

your personal understanding of God?

NINA: God! You know, devout Jews will G-d, holy be His name!

I

neither write nor pronounce the

word

think they're right, because as soon as you try to define

God. you're no longer talking about the omnipresent power that set all this in motion and pervades all there is. I think the Jews and the Christians are wrong

God a masculine pronoun. God, as I conceive it, is neither a he, a it. God is everything, or God is nothing. Trying to put a gender on the

about giving she. nor an

ineffable

is

When you question the which means, 'Thou art that." Or Can we limit the illimitable by calling it this or

like trying to drain the

ocean with a sieve.

Hindus about God, they say, "Tat twam they answer, "Not this, not that."

My understanding of the divine is of a force that is the sum total of All There

that? Is,

asi,"

which includes, but

DJB:

is

not limited

to,

nature.

Why did you write One Foot in the Future and why did you choose that title?

NINA: The

events of

my

make

which spans most of the twentieth century,

life,

are

book "a good read," as an English friend put it. view entice the reader to the psychedelics in the context o\ the life oi a wanted to mature, rational woman who used them as a means to touch the noumenon. also wanted to try to set the record straight about the pioneers of the psychedelic

dramatic enough to

the

I

I

consciousness.

The Harvard

trio

of Leary, Alpert and Metzner had been

re-

searching consciousness long before their involvement with psychedelics, and has remained their primary interest throughout the years.

this

my mind

the Fool

book

calls to

little

bundle on the end o\

\

\

ir.

stick.

One

foot

is

firmly planted

the earth, the other extends over the abyss — the

m)

life.

I've

been

just half a step

instead ol the past.

The

title

o\ the

the Tarot deck. All he has kept of the past

ahead of the

in

is

the

the present, on

unknown, the not-\et. Most of crowd and have looked to the future

Nina Graboi

DJB: One of

the things that delighted

me when

I

read your autobiography

your undying sense of optimism, and your continual willingness to past, as

you journeyed through

what gives you

NINA:

I'm no Pollyanna.

time

this

faith in the life

I

life.

Are you

still

let

go of your

optimistic about the future, and

process?

see that

we've messed things

up, but

I

believe that

My

we're making an evolutionary quantum leap.

in history

was

at

view of

evolution begins where Darwin's leaves off.

An

ancient

Hindu

of evolution

is

text declares that the

not just survival of the

^ ^H^

aim

j

fittest

eve (^at at this

we

/#J

that but the manifestation of the perfection F ^ ... „ r is already present in all of us. Teilhard de

.

Chardin's idea that

we

^

||Jflfc-

..

ing an evolutionary J quan° . *

_,

,

i

^*

are advancing to-

ward Christogenesis, the Christ consciousness lived and personified by us the life process

it,

the

to the psychedelic

my

appeals deeply to

same source

Go with the flow, we used to say

past.

key

comes from

all,

intuition.

as the willingness to

in the sixties.

experience as well as to

life;

I

My

let

faith in

go of

believe that surrender

is

the

the

when we impose our will on

we're sure to have a bummer.

DJB: How do you feel about, and what type of potential do you see for some of the new scientific advances in technology that will influence the future evolution of consciousness, such as designer drugs, brain stimulation machines, and Virtual Reality?

NINA: Wow! The words "designer drugs" and brain stimulation machines bring all

sorts of possibilities for

behavior control to

my

mind. In the wrong hands, a

movie could result. I'm impressed by the practical applications of my God, do we need more high-tech toys? We're living in a Disney world, even without TV. Does the fact that I can't wholeheartedly cherish

sci-fi

horror

Virtual Reality, but

the thought of a future laden with all kinds of toys for that

I

now have

both feet

DJB: How do you

see

changing our brains mean

in the past?

human consciousness evolving

in the future?

NINA: OK., here goes: I believe that the knowledge that we are all eternal spirits who will continue our adventure after the body's death will bring about a profound change of values. Science has already demonstrated that what we perceive as solid matter is only a bunch of atoms that have come together for a while to form an object. In the

begun

to

last

few decades, science and mysticism have

resemble each other more and more, and

eventually find the

means

to

prove

I

don't doubt that

the reality of life after death. 235

A

it

will

technology

that fulfills

amount

ol leisure time available to all.

allowed the

w

nineties earth,

promise of freeing us from hard labor will make an unprecedented

its

and

RMN:

spiritual

ill

awakening of the

It

was

the financial ease of the fifties that

sixties to occur.

bring us back to the ideals of respect lor

Can you explain

NINA: once

the theory that

read

I

somewhere

you have about androgyny and

When

Nature's adaptability. cards

it.

I

we had

lived in caves,

no insects could enter while we but

this is fact or fantasy,

if

it

the

it?

when we still

long ago,

that

the ability to close our earlaps so that

know

for the gifts of the

each other.

tor

evolutionary end of biological sex as you see

Jon't

Perhaps the poverty of the all life,

me

struck

as a

slept.

I

good example of

she's through with a feature, she impartially dis-

believe that the future of

mankind

wo-mankind.

is

I

think we're

evolving toward androgyny, neither male nor female nor bisexual, but beyond sex.

The old system of procreation

is

becoming

obsolete. Pleasure

Nature holds up

...we 're evolving toward ,

,

.J,

androgyny, neither male i

r

•

i

i

norfemale nor bisexual, but beyond sex.

to

the carrot

is

keep us alive and repro-

ducin 8' so she § ave us P leasure in eatin S and in sex. But we have over-reproduced. .

human

the

*\-

.. ,. ... the biggest threat facing

.

.

Overpopulation

is

species

We

cannot continue to

cover the earth with our pr0 g en y

we

that

.

will transcend gender.

An

think

\

astonish-

ing number of today's younger generation already looks neither male nor female. Nobody can watch the present volcanic upheaval in the relationship of the sexes

without being aware that a gigantic reshuffling of the sexual card deck

is in

Something new is happening. The boundaries between the genders are more and more blurred while the war between the sexes rages. To me,

progress. getting

it

looks like the a

new

last

anguished gasp of an evolutionary dead end, the chaos before

order appears. Perhaps in the future there will be neither males nor

females, but androgynes the eternal

ible

RMN:

are complete within themselves and not subject to

dance of attraction-repulsion

we now know

love, as

who

it,

is

that

dominates the sexual scene.

possessive and exclusive.

only where no motive of selt-mterest

What

are

you doing these

days'.'

is

1

Human

believe that true love

is

invoked.

Can you

tell

us about any projects on

which you're currently working.'

NINA:

Well, actually, I'm just sitting back letting

wrote

scenario tor

in

a

two and

a

(

the Divine

incarnations.

I

osmic Soap Opera. Couple dying

to

It

it

happen

— whatever

it

is.

I

begins with the cosmic egg splitting

come

together on earth through

many

give talks about the relationship oi the psychedelics to the spiritual

Nina Graboi

beyond

path, but sit

that

—hey

I'm 73 years

listen, kids!

Don't

old.

1

have a

right to

back and enjoy the breeze?

RMN:

Yes, you do. You've certainly led an active and adventurous

back over

it,

how do you

life.

Looking

see the various stages that you've gone through

contributing to the person you are today?

NINA: The analytical.

person like

I

am

I

today... But

what G. B. Shaw says

thinking about your stomach

is like

sick."

who in

—

that

is

person? I'm not very

self-

Joan ofArc: "Thinking about yourself

it's

way

the quickest

make

to

yourself

could say I'm a writer, a mother, a senior citizen, an iconoclast, a

I

researcher of

human

describe me.

could say I'm an energy blip in the cosmic void, or that I'm a crazy

I

quilt of attributes,

consciousness, but you know, none of these labels really

good and bad

—

more than

but I'm

of my parts. Trying to define oneself,

I

think,

is

that.

I'm more than the sum

an exercise

in futility that

us in the self-concentration camp.

As you know, Freud was my

both came from Vienna, but while

I

can put

compatriot;

we

greatly appreciate the quality of his writings

on mythology, I can't help feeling that he was to a large extent responsible for putting great numbers of people in the self-concentration camp. His imaginative way of looking at mental dis-ease and neurosis made them seem most attractive, and people began to watch their emotions with the fascination of Narcissus beholding his own image in the lake. America fell in love with Freud's ideas years before they were accepted in Europe. When I came to this country in 1941, everybody was talking about Freudian slips and Oedipus complexes. Phallic symbols were everywhere. In the fifties, it was very "in" to have a shrink. People went back to their childhood to search for the subconscious roots of their present mental quirks, and what they found was that Mom was to blame it was all her fault. It seems to me that when people are so busy and

his scholarly grasp

—

observing their subjective feelings, they lose touch with the great big world

around them.

Who am I

today

is

who I became

of peeling the onion of

in the years

conditioning and attempting to relocate the center of Self.

The Nina Graboi

Self

is

before

self is transitory,

undying and unborn

we go

—

on, that there

positively believe. Everything

is

Hindus

me

possible, but our ignorance

session, our self-transcendent experiences

seem

our everyday world, but that does not

mean

how

say. Let

nothing any more today that

our tendency to embrace belief systems that

ultimate truths, no matter

my

small self in the Higher

an instant in an ocean of being, but the

or so the

is

my

we

I

tell

you,

absolutely and

abysmal and so

find attractive. In an

is

LSD

more

real than

that they necessarily

embody

a thousand times

attractive they are.

237

is

quickly

DJB: ro tell

us

w

the people

hat

your secret

NINA: Happy? I

who know

1

It

don't know. Content

me « hen

makes good, 1

read

it

is

to

may be

suffering

for the first time

ephemeral, an instant

used

all

practical sense to

will start slowly to fall

Can you

is?

bin the Buddha's idea that

desire.

you, you appear to be a happy person.

away. Besides, in eternity.

me.

many all

2

M

I

think

it's

because

If this is as

clear to

you as

it

was

to

years ago, then desire and attachment I

So why

say in the sixties.

a better word.

caused by attachment to the objects of

is

am get

is

a blip in the

cosmic soup. Life

hung up? I go with

the flow, as

we

Laura Huxley "When

the

body/mind has been attended to, then, as a flower Higher Self will naturally emerge..."

free of weeds, the

239

Bridging Heaven and Earth with Laura Huxley

Laura Archera Huxley has received wide recognition for her humanistic achievements including that of Honorary Doctor of Human Services from Sierra

Honoree of the United Nations, Fellow of the International Academy ofMedical Preventics, and Honoree of the World Health Foundation for Development and Peace from which she received the Peace Prize in 1990. Born November 2, 1911, in Turin, Italy, she expressed a great talent for music and went on to become a concert violinist. She played all over Europe but her American debut was at Carnegie Hall, just before World War II. She played in the Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestra from 1944 until 1947 and then went on to produce documentary films and become an editor at RKO. During the fifties Laura worked as a psychological counsellor, a lecturer, and a seminarist of the Human Potential Movement, in which she is still involved today. She is the I

nivcrsitw

founder of Our Ultimate Investment, a non-profit organization for the nurturing of the possible human.

956 she married the reknowned writer and philosopher, Aldous Huxley, and lived with him until his death in 1963. She has written a number of books which focus on the development of psychological freedom: You Are Not the In

1

Between Heaven and Earth, OneADayReason to Be Happy and The Child of Your Dreams which she wrote with Dr. Piero Ferrucci. She is also the author of This Timeless Moment, a book describing the life she led with her husband and a beautifully touching tribute to his genius. We met with Laura on April 8th 1992 in her lovely, chapel-like home in the

Target,

Hollywood playful

spirit.

Her easy

smile and bright-as-button eves spoke of a serenely Together with her graceful posture, they revealed that after eighty

Hills.

years of life she has

succumbed neither

to

emotional nor Newtonian gravity.

—RMN

Laura Huxley

DJB: What spiritual

originally inspired your interest in mysticism, personal growth,

LAURA:

I

don't

know that there was one moment that it happened. It was just a You can call it whatever you want to the creative forces,

—

natural development.

an inspiration. But farther.

It is

mystery is

and

development?

all

all

my

around us

and

life,

so clear that there

so

is

now at this very moment, I have wanted to go much more. This immensity, this beauty, this

—and we perceive such an

infinitesimal part of

it. I

guess

it

greed to want to be more than a limited being with a limited body-mind. But

you

much

feel that the potential is so

greater than what you have actualized, and

then something happens showing that you can go farther. That aspect of

a wonderful

is

life.

DJB: So you

LAURA:

see

Yes.

own development?

as a natural extension of your

it

When you

feel the

immensity of the possible, naturally you are

it. When you feel good, you plunge deeper. However, am eighty I often am exhausted. Then I have to stay quietly have no choice. And then again something new happens. It may be something

interested in plunging into

at

my

age

—

distressing and

I

happens, giving forever, even

—

—

I

however

have

me

again the overwhelming apprehension of

when

death

to deal

with

it

may be around

In

1949 Ginny

cancer case. The

Mayo

Pfeiffer,

my

I

It

that,

I

had started

to

years.

as a terminal

was

a shock.

It

in six

months, or

plunged

me

if

was no

a miracle

into all kinds of

my life had first been devoted to the violin, totally. After

work

in films.

nutrition or healing. Actually,

my

was diagnosed

best friend,

would happen,

two

renaissance

Clinic declared with total certainty that there

Death would come

in

life's

develop?

possibility for her to get well.

exploration. Until then,

can.

the corner.

RMN: How did your interest in psychotherapy LAURA:

Or something wonderful

just

I

had

I

had never studied medicine, psychology,

left

school

at

fourteen so

I

could concentrate

energy on practicing and concertizing.

face

The doctors of the Mayo Clinic kept telling me, "Miss Archera, you must reality. Your friend is going to die in about six months." I just could not

accept what the authorities told me.

And

let

me

add

that at that time at the

Mayo

Clinic the authorities were very kind and wonderfully supportive. In fact,

I

good friend with the Mayo family then, in 1950. But, I could not accept So I began to study everything under the sun. I went to lectures, and then started to actually practice on my friend. So that is the way it happened. Usually, it is a drama, a trauma that pushes us into something else,

became

a

that death sentence.

241

/

aura

I:

because

never though!

1

m\

out of

I

would be involved

in

psychology.

It

was completely

field,

RM\:

SO did

LAI R

\:

it

help her?

She lived twenty-three years longer. She

is

written up in

all

the case

reports.

Wow

wanted to ask you about something that you talk about in Well, Between Heaven and Earth a recipe for living that involves the your book transmutation of energy through the imagination, the will, and the body. Can you

DJB:

tell

I

.

—

us about this?

LAURA: A powerful triangle: the imagination, the will, and the body. mean the I

will

the

is

ultimately what

is us.

We are not speaking about that stiff will that betrays

body and does not accept

the imagination, but the will that

urging of imagination, and the needs of the body. That in all

ways

imagine

—because

the

that there is a

body responds to

big tiger that

is

is

is

attentive to the

a triangle that responds

two would just out and chew you.

the imagination. If you

going to come right

DJB: The body responds.

LAURA:

Immediately. Because the imagination and the body are so close, the will has to take

r-,

...

The mil

-

.

tor oj the rich vast or-

ductor of the rich vast orchestra of imagination

this

I

—

^

chestra of imagination ana body.

DJB: Had you heard of

it.

have exercises for this triangle in my book Between Heaven and Eanh Jhc win fe ba _ sic as are the two COO p erators f me will imagination and body. The will is the con-

,

the conduc-

is

an overview and direct

and body.

model from anyone

else, or did

you come up with

it

yourself?

LAURA:

No.

DJB: Well,

I

I'll

never heard

tell

wrote the following the imagination, I

considered

LAURA:

it

to

is

it

from anyone.

you, one time while

down

in

my

I

was

in

the midst of an altered state

notebook: Everything

that exists

I

comes through

directed by the will, and expressed through the physical body.

be a profound insight.

Exactly the same thing, and so well expressed. 742

Laura Huxley

DJB: Then

opened up your book and found

I

LAURA: Oh really?

It is

LAURA:

a

good model

much

for understanding

You and I seem to be the

if

would

a patient's

these people get well?

imagination which on

It

its

is

it

me

symptoms could

say, "It's just your imagina-

a certain percentage of the population

no curative property;

that has

later.

how everything comes into existence.

Including the placebo effect. Years ago,

As you know

medicine

months

attention to this concept.

not be given a diagnostic label, the doctor tion."

there several

Well, that's extremely interesting.

only people, because no one has paid

DJB:

it

just a pill with

is

cured by taking a

nothing in

it.

seems to own, in turn, influences body chemistry. This

the triangle we're discussing.

I

suppose

placebo have a closer connection,

How do

that their will to get well directs their

that those

maybe

people

a direct line

who

is

again

are healed

from the will

by a

to the

imagination and body.

remember when I was fourteen years old, I read a book entitled Things Greater Than Himself, by an Italian author by the name of Zuccoli. It recounts the story of a fourteen-year-old boy who had fallen in love with an older woman who was hardly aware of his existence. Well, I was a fourteen-year-old girl who had fallen in love with an older man who was hardly aware of my existence. The boy became so sad, so desperate that he died. I became so sad, so desperate; but I

I

did not die.

And even then, I wondered: why did he die and I didn't? Now I think

maybe his connection of will (in this case the will to die) to imagination and body was stronger than mine! Actually that feeling of being surrounded, propelled, sometimes, exhausted by things greater than myself is often with me; by now I should be used to it! But I am not. that

DJB:

I

know

that you're fascinated

learned, in a nutshell, about

how

with the subject of nutrition.

What have you

one's diet can affect one's physical or mental

well-being?

LAURA: When was helping my sick friend, I went to Rancho La Puerta, a spa Now is a very well known, beautiful, and elegant spa. I

on the Mexican border.

Then

it

was only

a

Professor Szekely ing the spa.

I

—

he's dead

is

I

think

now, but

we

paid five dollars a day. There

his wife

was

and son are constantly improv-

learned from Professor Szekely basic elements of nutrition.

learned in 1950 what Nutrition

it

few houses.

is

now

a transformer of consciousness

and touches every point of our

lives. In fact,

when I look in the Health & Cooking section of a bookstore,

I

I

being discovered, a simple obvious fact of nature.

can see that the subject of 243

Nutrition is a transformer

of consciousness

. .

food and nutrition

involved

is

and finance,

in politics

in

war and peace,

in

love

and haired. all that

Basically!

has been written about nutrition from the point of view of

summarized

the choice of food could be is

grow

n

ei

\

presen ed

America

one page.

tour-thousand-year old Egyptian

like a

John Robbins and you will learn

bj

about food choices. But

I

would

say,

buy food

mummy. Read

Diet for a

you need

just about all

that

transported and

is

to

New

know

we must be aware

we must choose

important;

in

near the place where you live, not something that

\

that it is not just what we eat that's body can metabolize. Now don't eat long time. I eat one egg once in a while, but no

the food our

any animal food, and haven't for a

I

cheese or meat.

DJB:

Is this

I^AURA: drugs.

If

chicken. all

First

of

want

I

I

for nutritional or for spiritual reasons?

like to

I

know

the

way

that

animals are treated, and they're

is

flowing.

way animals

So

full

of

cow or a of rage, when

don't have to take them through a

I

choose! The animals are killed

the adrenaline

protect the

all,

to take drugs,

it

is

when

they are

for taking care of

are treated.

I

wrote

at

full

myself

first,

and also

length about this subject

to in

Between Heaven and Earth.

DJB: So you feel that if you eat an animal that was would be absorbing some of that energy state?

LAURA:

we

we

killed in certain

way, then you

Of much of what is harmful, but seeing the increase in degenerative diseases, even among the young, is clear have been a few that there is a limit even to the immense wisdom of the body. Yes,

course, the miracle

absorb the nutrition and is that

absorb the toxicity as well.

our body eliminates

it

I

times, not very often,

know pretty as we need. R.MN:

a fast. After a fast,

you

are

more

know

that

we

all eat at least

well what to eat.

We become

LAURA: Oh eat

on

will

very sensiti/ed to what

yes; and

you

simple food and enjoy

R.MN: Do you

You

believe

in

will eat

much

is

less

sensitive and

healthy and what

is

you

twice as

will

much

not.

and be better nourished when you

it.

vitamins?

LAURA

It \ou had a perfect environment, the peifed lover, and the perfect obviously wouldn't need any vitamins. Hut the wa\ we live, with yOU food, tension and noise and pollution, supplements are necessarv. studied the megaI

244

Laura Huxley

vitamin system and then

which

studied homeopathy,

are the

consideration

first.

Even with vitamins,

the basic question

have with them. For instance, when

I

was young,

Now

I

can take only a

doses and

two extremes.

It is

decide because the person and his or her situation has to be taken into

difficult to

we

I

it

RMN: On

me

did

a lot of good.

theme of mental health

the

I

would

1

like to

is in

the relationship

could take niacin

in large

little.

ask you a question about

my experience are often places for retreat transformation. Why do you think that during the past

mental health institutions, which from

and

stasis, rather

than

hundred years there has been so much theoretical advance

in the science

of

psychology, yet the practical applications of psychotherapy don't seem to have

advanced

that

LAURA:

much?

Psychotherapy profits from the science of psychology but the basic

difference,

it

seems

to

me,

is

that

psychotherapy

is

understanding while psychol-

ogy is knowledge. Psychotherapy is mainly a humanistic and artistic endeavor psychology is involved in scientific research of actual human behavior on the

—

other hand the psychotherapist's premise

am thinking MIT on many

psychology

USC

and

I

ecological situation as

it

at

subjects, not only psychotherapy, but also for the

was

in 1959. is

Everything he previewed

it

here: in other

into consideration.

takes twenty-eight years for any

accepted. Well, thirty-three years have passed

about ecology are happening.

is

enormously worsened. Moreover, the inexpen-

methods he suggested have not been taken

has been said that

It

of us there are valuable

of the extraordinary series of lectures Aldous gave

words, the ecological situation sive, practical

is that in all

which, given the opportunity, can emerge and flower. Apart from

latent qualities,

We have

to

now and

hope.

good idea

to

be

prestigious conferences

We all have had the experience

of giving a simple suggestion to a friend: take a one hour walk every morning; eat

an apple

Those

last

thing before going to bed and another

first

thing

when you

get up.

are simple, inexpensive Rx, but the person, rather than taking charge,

pill or go to an expensive seminar or psychiatrist; which is also seems to me that trying a simple thing first is to be considered. Primitive cultures sometimes use very simple means with effective results.

chooses to get a effective, but

RMN:

it

many non-technological societies, such as exist in in the Amazon, there are ritualized battles where very few, if any,

That's very true. In

Borneo and

also

is offered a form of release from pent-up emotional So do you think part of the problem with violent crime in the West is related

people get killed and the tribe stress.

to

our not having a socially acceptable channel for our frustrations?

LAURA: Oh

yes.

Saturday night

we went to see

Look,

I

was

visiting Brazil with

a ritual called the 245

Aldous, and

in

Rio on a

"makoomba." The people would

dance together, sing and go on and on and on and on. By 3:(X) A.M., they would be sweating and breathing enormously, the frustration was gone and they start to

w Quid be laughing and dancing. Aldous spoke enthusiastically about "makoomba," sa) ing how more effective and less expensive it was than lying on the psychoanalyst's COUCh. Now we know thai while dancing, running, and swimming, the body produces chemicals called endorphins which give us a happy, elated feeling. have our

own

inner chemical factory.

We

have

to learn

how

to use

We

well.

it

DJB: So are you saying that the problem stems from just repressed physical energ) ? Would something as simple as playing sports be helpful?

LAURA: Oh

wonderful, yes. That was the Greek idea. They used sports

that is

and emphasized the mobility and the nobility of the body. But even

you would

if

take groups of people out in the open, near mountains or water or forests, give

them

just a

much more

RMN:

Or

of ritualistic direction, like you were saying,

little bit

them advice. They know

effective than giving

What do you

think they do.

ment one another rather than being

LAURA:

Well,

I

think that there

difference between that if

we would

think are

is

can these differences comple-

not such a great psychological and emotional

men and women.

I

we make

think that

a religious person,

is

the

the differences

and

accept the fact of androgyny, there would be balance and is

man

both: every

feminine elements and every woman some masculinity. When

must be both

would be

it

already.

a source of tension?

cooperation, rather than competition. Each one

what

all

some of the major psychological

men and women, and how

differences between

it

I

has

some

asked Krishnamurti

he said (among other things) that a religious person

man and woman

—

I

don't

mean

sexually, he said

dual nature of everything; the religious person must

—

but must

feel

know

and be both

masculine and feminine.

DJB: So you

arc saying that

you see

the conflict

between men and

women

as

being an externalized drama of the conflict going on inside each o( us?

LAURA: that

feel that

and capacities

small instance: a front. a

it

educational and cultural, rather than basic.

is

wonderful work done by

tlie

talents

I

Whj

zipper

m

woman

a zipper'.'

front

is

We

women

sometimes

a bit

can hardly buy

for a

flawed by a pair

don't need a zipper

would be

a

more

clear statement

a

just

It

seems

recognition of

tendency

to

me

women's

to imitate

man.

A

of jeans or pants w ithout a zipper in

in front.

Refusing

to

wear pants with

and probably better pants.

Laura Huxley

RMN: Do you think men are beginning to get side

more

in

touch with their feminine

and vice versa?

LAURA: Oh yes, because much has been accomplished. Men can feel fairly free now

to cry, dress

baby.

It is

more

freely, take care of the

the best thing for baby, father,

RMN: We

touched earlier on the idea

household, and take care of their

and mother.

that the

mind

affects the body. This

is

—

like in Chinese and Ayurvedic medicine. But lot of places monumental evidence to the contrary, purely physical explanations are still invoked, more often than not in the West, to explain, not only physical, but mental illness. Why do you think this is, after so much evidence has shown that the mind and body are parts of the same whole?

taken for granted in a still,

despite the

LAURA:

Because of the great division of body and mind that has been with us two thousand years. Two thousand years are difficult to overcome. The power of words, if coming from High Places and repeated enough times, is so powerful so as to obscure such tangible present inescapable facts as the body-mind interaction. Doctors go to school for thirty years and they are told that the body is a mechanism that you fix or you don't, and that belief has been programmed so for

deeply in their minds.

RMN: Why LAURA:

RMN:

do you think

even began

Well Aldous said

Really, the Greeks.

LAURA: Then

RMN:

it

it

began with Aristotle and Plato and many

Blame

it

others.

on the Greeks.

the Catholics.

Because they wanted

LAURA: The belief that DJB: So you

in the first place?

think

it

the

to control the spiritual

body

is

something

mind.

dirty is

overwhelming.

began long before Descartes divided the mind from the

divine?

LAURA: Oh

yes. Before that St.

Augustine condemned the body.

RMN:

Have you found any one psychotherapeutic technique to be valuable, or does the success of a particular method vary from person

247

especially to

person?

Hwdty

.

LAURA: the

many psychotherapeutic techniques which

There are

hands

However,

Of a capable therapist.

the

relationship

who does not the body from .

cra py

[

include the bef

movement, breathing, running, sum,

it

is

" ^ ,cc,in S is that an y P s y cho docs not incl " dc thc bod y from

who is

incomplete.

is

The medical

pointing more and more to the

body . mind conne c,ion. For instance, our relationship to food and cancer; how body changes one's body consciousness;

etc.,

emotion and personality are connected In

the cli-

stron

evidence

gmnmg IS incomplete.

is

between the guide and the

u begmnmg

J

^he

.

.

M^

ent

...any psychotherapist

are effective in

most important factor

how

to degenerative disease.

increasingly clear and accepted that the

way we

treat

our body-

mind is the way our body-mind will treat us. The Golden Rule applies here too. It is amazing to me that the two main branches of therapies, psychotherapy and

when in psychosomatic or somato-psychic. What else somatic therapy, are kept separate,

circle

and

the points

all

on the

circle

even the smallest point out of the

optimum

is,

in

my

is

every state of being

there?

I

see the

must be considered important.

circle, the circle is

human being

emotional, or social points of the

no more

as possible.

To

is

human being without

If

you take

there

is

a lot of

The many

a circle.

involving the body

inadequate and the

is

slower and not on the high level of excellence

RMN: Nowadays

either

contact only the intellec-

through which the intellect and emotion are expressed

outcome

is

human being as a

view, that kind of education or therapy that contacts as

points of the circle of the tual,

fact,

might be.

it

body focus and people exercising

for health

and vanity reasons.

LAURA:

Yes, and

it

does them a

lot

of good even though

it's

often mindless

mean is synchronizing the psycho and somatic therapy. One must be aware of how the emotions play on the body and how one can use the What

exercise.

body

I

out thc devils ot rage. (

tyorg)

It is exorcism through exercise. Hxorcism means So consciously exercising to squeeze out, push out, move tear, sadness, and boredom from the muscle. Albert S/ent-

transform emotion.

to

casting out the devil.

l.

the

eminent biochemist, twice Nobel Prize winner, said

are the greatest transformers of

transformation that

RMN:

Is tins

LAURA:

is

energy

clear and available

the principle

you applied

in the

body.

It

is

one

— always with us—

in

You Are Not

at

that thc

muscles

o\ the

ways of

no

the Target

cost!

?

add the Between Heaven and Earth as well. And to sell In gi\es the dimension of Service because service is what significance continuing its importance to the world. The relationship of body-mind and Yes, and

in

I

Laura Huxley

same

service should be addressed at the time. In

my

mind, body -mind-service

ideal education. that

I

would be an

would not call implicit

it

is

significance to the self

therapy—

agreement

by confirming its importance to the world.

that a

person interested and active in improving him/herself

What I'm saying has

sick.

is

been admirably and

What gives

...service IS

the

monumental book by Michael Murphy

fully presented in the

been published, The Future of the Body. Michael Murphy who, with Dick Price, founded Esalen, being acquainted with all the greatest world

which has

just

teachers and their methods, realized that every teacher promotes a certain set of

values while others are either neglected or suppressed. "Integral Practices,"

Murphy

coins the phrase

which I quote, "are practices that address somatic,

affective,

cognitive, volitional and transpersonal dimensions of human nature in a

hensive way."

RMN: Do

compre-

A very important book.

you think there

is

too

much

attention given to the individual in our

society?

LAURA: would

seems

It

realize that

to

be

we

so.

are

Had we

little

the kind of education just mentioned,

cells in

organism and would not pollute the very source of our life: the water, the food.

and

feel.

we

an immense, inextricably connected air

we breathe, the

We would pay more attention to the way other human beings are

Service gives us a chance to be aware of

that.

Karen,

my

year-old granddaughter, just returned from a white water expedition,

seventeen-

programmed

according to the principles of Outward Bound, the greatest educational institution in the U.S.A., in

my

opinion. Karen told

dedicated to serve another person,

who

me

did not

one day of the

that

know who

trip

was

the serving person

was; finding out would be the subject of the evening discussion. Karen said that she never had experienced in a group of teenagers such a profound peace, such quiet contentment.

It

is

effective; that teenagers,

encouraging that a simple, inexpensive recipe

is

whose personal drama

for a

so intense, can forget

is

it

so

day, and experience peace and contentment by serving.

RMN: What LAURA:

foundation needs to be laid for the spiritual to emerge?

The

spiritual

dimension of the human being

dormant, and emerges of itself as a natural consequence

is

ever present, but often

when we are ready

—

not

as a goal to be reached. Spirituality has to have space to emerge; a flower cannot

grow own. the

if

overcrowded by weeds. Give

When the body-mind

it

space and the flower will bloom on

has been attended

to,

Higher Self will naturally emerge and service

249

its

then, as a flower free of weeds, is

part of

its

expression.

DJB: So you I

.

\l

[RA: Right.

RMN: and

[a\ e the

I

ritual

much of a

don'l draw

It

is

the body, mind, and spirit?

continuum.

a

techniques that you discuss in your books

— been used by psychologists or psychiatrists

LAURA:

In

organize

national network for teachers.

how

between

Line then

a

L963,

to organize,

when Target was

and above

all,

my

life

— movement techniques

that

published, there I

you are aware of?

was much demand

resisted the temptation;

was

full

I

did not

to

know

enough. The recipes are used by

some therapists, sometimes classes are organized. Mostly people use them from the book had and have the most rewarding and touching reports of experi-

—

I

ences from the

letters

I

receive from friends

I

have never met who

profit

from the

Recipes for Living and Loving.

RMN: Do

you think

that the

methods you employ would be

beneficial to a

person with a serious imbalance like paranoid schizophrenia?

LAURA: The Huxley Institute and the American Association of Orthomolecular Medicine have, since 1957, conducted studies on schizophrenia and have dem-

B3 and B6, Vitamin

onstrated that specific nutritional supplements, like Vitamin

C, Zinc, and others are extremely helpful and, in certain types of schizophrenia,

have brought recovery.

I

believe that a schizophrenic person would be greatly

helped by being grounded through exercise, particularly the principle a

I

mentioned before:

if

he would understand

to exorcise, to cast off devils

disturbed person thinks and feels that he or she

is

by exercise. Often

persecuted or invaded by

dangerous vibrations, enemies or devils. also

A method that he can use independently not only would ground him but would give him that power he so desperately seeks so that he himself can get

He could not only feel, but even visualize the devils coming out of his muscles move his muscles, and since he is the only one who can. he would achieve autonomy and self-authority. Of course this would not particularly with the mesomorphic a trial always happen, but why not give rid

of his persecutors.

—

—

it

type; the person with a prevalence of musculature might feel a liberation by using

himself

in a

RMN:

This

self-beneficial

is

going

way; of course,

into the next question.

alert

supervision

is

essential.

Main psychotherapeutic

techniques

are considered by orthodox practitioners to be in the realm of the paranormal,

even though many have been shown so much nervousness on the part

to

be successful.

ot

scientists to

Why

do you think there

is

investigate, not only the

paranormal phenomena, but also alternative healing techniques?

Laura Huxley

LAURA: An

investment, whether intellectual or financial, gives us security.

new and value.

So

different emerges, this in a

When

and work.

Scientists protect their investment of years of study

something

does not mean that the previous work loses

way, the resistance you speak of is the fear of being wrong,

is that

its

way

of thinking in separate camps, of "either/or" rather than considering what can be valuable in more than one view healing technique.

DJB: One of psychedelics.

LAURA:

—normal and paranormal, orthodox, and

We can use everything in this complex life we are living.

the things that brings the

How

body-mind problem

have psychedelics affected your

was an expansion. I wrote about it in It was something that gave me open our hearts and minds. Sometimes we It

Timeless Moment.

open on the aesthetic

7

,

,

the level of compassion ,

alternative

level, sometimes a. * r c

—

on

n

to attention is

life?

a

book about Aldous

This

a larger view. Psychedelics

,

f

..

Psychedelics our open J * , hearts and minds.

the feeling of com-

.

passion, and the beauty of the world, as well as the gigantic suffering in the world. This is the

way

which they affected me. Probably a psychedelic emphasizes what is in it. But we are a crowd, and which one of the crowd be amplified? We don't know. in

an individual and amplifies will

DJB: That

leads to the mistake a lot of people

made when

experimenting with psychedelics. Because they saw their

they

first started

own positive

qualities

assumed that anyone who did a psychedelic would become more compassionate, more loving, and it just doesn't work that

get amplified, they

more way.

creative, It

takes whatever

LAURA:

Yes.

more, and

it's difficult

is

there and amplifies

it.

remember very well when we

Aldous and I were very, very surprised when we heard from Boston that there were many negative experiences. We always prepared very carefully, which makes a great difference. In general, if you take a psychedelic without preparation, it's risky. I know many kids do it, and sometimes it's okay, but then comes a time when it's not okay any I

for

many

realized that.

reasons, one being that

what

is

ingested can be

any chemical mix.

RMN: Of the people who know about the benefits of psychedelics, some believe that

it

made legal and everyone should have access to it. Other people should be some kind of restriction imposed. What do you think?

should be

think there

LAURA:

I

we had it all completely free again, abuse and damage is why Oscar Janiger founded the Albert Hofmann Founda-

think that

would happen. That

if

251

— /

aura H

(ion. to

which

I

am

a pari

so that there

of

use and guard from misuse. If there

by

little

It

it

is

sonic beginning,

were

restricted to

way

think that

I

of doing

who

begin with,

who cannot? What

substance and

at least, in

beginning, even with

a

one can enlarge them. But

little,

everything that would not be a just

RMN:

is

if

being able then

strict rules,

everybody can get

it.

who can

should decide

take the

are the qualities and qualifications such a

person should possess?

LAURA:

That

is

the question. First of

all,

one would have

oneself, and one should not try to get any gain

opinions and personality should be put aside,

from

to

have experienced

this at all.

at least as

much

it

One's own

as possible.

It is

them aside all together, but one can try to put them aside as much as possible. If you are asking about the role of the guide, probably it is easier to say what the guide must not do: not patronize, not preach, not impose, not do nothing, not come to quick conclusions, not deny intuition, not believe intuition as if it were God dictated, not deny common sense, not deny evidence, not accept difficult to put

evidence only, not be intensely personal, not be intensely impersonal, not be only masculine, not be only feminine.

DJB:

Is that

LAURA:

same

not the

Yes. However,

as the role of any guide or teacher?

if

you

refer to a period of therapy in general rather than

one single psychedelic experience,

I

would add

dances with the student, imperceptibly,

that, in the

now and

then,

beginning, the guide

exchanging leadership.

After a while, the guide dances the student's dance, but adds to

it

an higher octave

and a rock-strong basso continue Dovetailed between the two, the student supported and inspired student soars alone to said than done, but it:

"Ah. but

bit tiring at

DJB: What

I

new

heights.

followed that famous quote of Browning even before

I

knew

a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's heaven for?"

times to stretch like that, but

role

is

own dance. Finally, strong and free, the Let me immediately add that all this is easier

leading his

in

it

gives

do you see psychedelics playing

life a

It's a

fascinating flavor.

in the

future?

LAURA: That is almost like asking: what do you see tor the tuture ol this planet? We are at a point where just about anything can happen. the negative happens, It

the psychedelics it.

It

what we

begins

tO

between

them

w

ill

have

tried to

a

do

bad

—

to

role to play

because many people will get sick on

encourage conseiousness and responsibility

happen, then psychedelics would be the outer

— and

to

Stimuli

a help. Finally,

which continuously

what extent are we responsible 252

etleet

it

is

the interplay

us and our reaction to

tor our reactions?

We

can say

I

am

Laura Huxley

100%

responsible, and that

is

a lovely thought.

But how much of the 100% will?

And when do we

will?

I

think

totally,

it

is

is

how much is and when do we follow

our destiny and

follow our destiny

lucky that such a question,

because should

I

believe that

my

I

mercy of

may become

lethargic and be just a leaf in

On

lieve that

I

destiny, then

the other hand, should

have

I

my

powers over

full

seems

to

our personal

me, cannot be answered

am

totally at the

the wind.

it

our personal

j believe in the perfectibUity ofthe human race....

I

bedes-

who would

appear to me to be just Be What You Are which was based on a line of Shakespeare. "Who is he who can tell me who I am?" I tried hard but never succeeded. I believe in the perfectibility of the human race and in the support we can give each other in evolving. But that is all I believe. tiny,

I

would become Years ago,

drifting.

RMN: Do

I

a harsh judge of others

tried to devise a recipe entitled

you believe

who have

people

that

seen further, and have more

awareness, have a responsibility to others?

LAURA:

Absolutely yes. Those of us

who have been given more gifts certainly

have a responsibility for others.

DJB:

you could sum up the central message that you got from the time you would you say that you learned from him?

If

spent with Aldous, what

LAURA: He

said

it

himself.

I

can do no better than what he

said.

It

was

at this

important meeting of outstanding scientists in

Santa Barbara. Everyone was very serious,

[Aldous] said. ."all! can .

and they final

He

said, well,

advice after

Mr. Huxley, what

all

is

your

"I'm very embarrassed because

said,

worked

for forty years,

around,

I

countries,

and

all I

can

mle .»

I

„

studied everything

did experiments,

DJB: That

LAURA:

I

fa tQ be jmt fl kinder fQ £ach

feU yQU

these years of inquiry?

tell

went

I

you

is

to several to

be just a

little

kinder to each other."

takes a lot of learning.

You're absolutely

right.

It

takes a lot of learning and living and loving

and suffering.

DJB:

It

seems obvious but

LAURA:

it's

not.

Often the obvious things are the ones that are the most 253

difficult to

ley

understand and appreciate.

seems obvious

Il

we understand it? Do we when we suffocate.

breathe, but do

appreciate

it

DJB: Hom do you

LSD

think the

we

that

breathe.

appreciate

Aldous asked

that

You know we do

—we only begin

No

it?

tor as he

to

was dying

influenced his d> ing process?

LAURA: doing.

It

went so smoothly. He did ask

It

my

is

would make

it

of one person

a

for

for a big sheet

handwriting.

it

made

it

person it

who had

his

that

DJB:

I

I

as to 1 1

prepared himself for

this

event throughout his

knew

own

that he

LSD

"Try

recipe:

100

me

to ask

Then he died about

mm

for

seem to have two basic approaches and go as unconsciously as possible.

Some want

to die in their sleep,

as an adventure,

and want

go as lucid and aware as possible.

LAURA:

Yes, that's right. Probably one of the reasons

to

naturally afraid to be unconscious or not.

Tm

feeling good,

my

and well.

It

is

It

seems

to

easy to speak this

it

is

easy to speak this

way when you

know what would say then. But today down the time and date, because I

today'/ Write

LM'RA: complex

I

think happens to

think and feel that

ol feeling,

on; but

haw

is

I

point in

it

way when

its

I

goes on.

I

a mystery. Perhaps

it

medium and

the

way. What is may change my mind.

when

So do I

the date

alter death?

I

believe that

it

goes on into vibrations, or into other

unknown

the end of This Timeless Moment, that suggested Aldous alter he had passed on into the afterlife.

\54

this

can't imagine that this extraordinary

to us.

bookcase experience

at

is

life,

you're alive

feel this

I

thought, and whatever else, just vanishes.

read about the

my

vitalizing essence.

human consciousness

bodies, or into something totally different and

DJB:

whether one

is

at this

are not in agonizing pain,

you're not undergoing the division of the body from

What do you

me

choice would be to be very conscious, aware of

process that must be fantastic. But

S

should

I

not until

5:00.

it

D.JB:

intramuscular."

maybe it. It was

read in one of your books that people

to death.

not

He asked

that

Others see

when

again, the process

could not handle small

had been thinking

I

when he was going

:00.

it

is,

of paper; he evidently

Then he wrote

that

this

the right time, too, just six hours before he died.

at

was alert moment, at about it.

mean

Remember that

During the week prior to his death, mention

and he knew exactly what he was

it

very easy for him. This doesn't

easy for everybody else.

—

He asked

life.

belief that

for

that

you wrote about

the possibility

of contact with

Laura Huxley

LAURA: wrote

it

That was extraordinary wasn't

with such exactness.

remember

the

moment,

I

think that

it?

if

I

I

never speak about

were

speak about

to

the time, and all that exactly.

What

I

because

that it, I

I

would not

have written

is

absolutely correct.

DJB: Have you had any after he

other experiences where you

felt

the presence of Aldous

had died?

LAURA:

I

went

one or two other mediums

to

who

also gave

me

a very strong

presence, but not like that one. That one was...

DJB: Uncanny.

LAURA:

That's right.

RMN: Would you describe LAURA:

yourself as a religious person?

depends on what you mean by

It

religion.

I

don't

know

exactly.

What

does religion mean anyway?

RMN: bound

means "to be tied back," the idea being that one's spirit is some way. I guess you can interpret God however you want.

In Latin to

God

LAURA:

it

in

Well,

I

God

eat

RMN: Okay, let's put

it

every day

when

I

have a meal.

another way. What's

your personal understanding of God, apart

.../

eat

God

when I have a

every day

meal.

from food?

LAURA:

I

think

—

I

feel

—

that there is

an immense power; something that

is

so

we cannot even imagine it it has so much more imagination than when we imagine God, we just imagine as far as we can imagine. But our imagination is very limited when you think of all the flowers and stars. You think of a star, and you think of a cell, and it's mind-boggling. incredible that

we

have.

So

that

DJB: Yeah, we

can't even grasp ourselves, let alone a

supreme being of cosmic

proportions.

LAURA:

How

God when we don't even understand the simplest of things? I don't even know what goes on when speak to you, or how you hear and how you interpret what you hear and how this influences what I am going to say, etc., etc. Exactly.

can

we

grapple with

I

255

— /

tiuru

Huxley

RMN: Why

do you think that people get so hyped up about religion, which causes SO much war and devastation? Why do people get so worked up about tr\ tag to prove one god against another god?

LAURA: that a

think that

I

we've come once again

to a basic

problem:

fear.

Suppose

person has been worshipping a certain god with millions of other people.

That gives security. the best god."

like saying, "Millions

is

It

These persons' security

of us cannot be wrong;

blessing of

Of course,

of being wrong.

tear, the tear

grist for the mill

—

diminish the Global Fear even a

I

the

little bit.

is

I

time would be the presence of a Genius of Love

all

have

"Maybe am wrong." It's again the may be wrong; who isn't? But being possibility of discovery. The greatest

another and a better god, the possibility that

wrong could be

we

threatened by the possibility that there

is

Fear

is

the

who

could

most widespread, malignant,

infectious disease.

RMN: Do you LAURA:

I

think you could define consciousness?

would equate

consciousness. In general

consciousness of which itself.

But there

with

it

when we

we

life,

and

are aware: the consciousness that

a lot of consciousness that

is

many different we mean that

has

life

say "consciousness,"

is,

but

is

levels of

particular

becomes aware of

not aware of being, and of

which we are not aware.

DJB: To some people

LAURA: Oh

there are

Yes, oh yes.

because there

is

just so

How

another surprise.

RMN: Do

is

just

simply consciousness and unconsciousness.

no, no.

DJB: Obviously

LAURA:

there

you think

I

many, many stages and believe that's

much sad

that

that

life

we

is

it

so interesting to be alive

don't know, because there

would be

humanity

why

levels.

is

for the person

lies

who knows

evolving towards,

to use

forever

still

everything!

Nina (iraboi's

phrase, a "species-wide enlightenment"?

LAURA:

There are sonic ^)od signs. The problem

compare what was going on on with child labor, and

dungeons we see again and again tion

much

is

in the

how

that there

is

that the real

Middle Ages

people

—

who were

is

that

it

is

for instance,

problem is

such

is

if

you

what was going

mentally upset were put into

an evolution. The point that

slower. Because there

so slow. But

my husband made

overpopulation, which makes evolu-

a large

number oi

us.

evolution

is

very

Laura Huxley

slow.

The more mass

there

is,

the slower the evolution.

DJB: What was it that inspired you OneADayReason To Be Happy?

LAURA:

Because

it

seemed so

to write

natural.

your beautiful book for children

We

«

good time; •* a*k nffor >u quite difficult them. tu The

think that children have such a

u * r* lite but often

same the

is

f r sad "f e would be »

r

.

,

** ow ,

,

for the person

for teachers-besides parents, they are

,

,

who knows

everyining.

most underrated, unappreciated, under-

work hard

paid class in America. Teachers

make school meaningful for children and children should acknowledge that. So I thought that children who do not yet read and write could have the equivalent of homework everyday, in the form of bringing to the teacher and class one reason to be happy they had that day; and then if a child says, "No, I have no reason to be happy; nothing is good for me, yesterday was terrible," then all the other children have an opportunity to surround him and say, "Look, we like you just the same and it's fine." There again such a little recipe, yet it could brighten to

the classroom and give the children the joy of being grateful; and to the teacher a

measure of appreciation as well as a look into the student's

life.

DJB: I was curious about how adopting a granddaughter at the age of sixty-three affected your life?

LAURA:

Oh!

affected

It

my

Tremendously!

life!

sixty-three years apart are in different worlds, but

because she has just graduating

idea existed. in

Northern

generations I

this extraordinary

Italy it

see,

—

I

was brought up

see that there

is,

is

unbelievable. People

very touching sometimes is

seventeen now, and

is

me to all kinds of worlds that I had no

in a

very conservative family in Turino,

a totally different universe.

would be

is

kind of insight. Karen

from high school. She took

You

it

It

Even

if

it

were

just

one or two

different, but this is just so different.

of course,

all

the weight of this society

which

is

not for a

teenager to be heaped upon her. This continuous, continuous, continuous stimulation is really very difficult to deal with.

once, or twice a month. Here

we

I

violence and vulgarity. Vulgarity

am

I

used to go to a movie,

maybe

can push a button and have one hundred movies

any time of the day or night, and many,

I

mean,

is

if

not most shows, identify sex with

paid probably the highest amount of money.

lucky that Karen focuses a great deal on her inner world and

tries to figure

out what's inside. She has remarkable insights.

DJB: Do you

think that they focus too

what's internal? 257

much on what's

external, rather than

^

/

aura Hu\

LAURA:

Po locus internally

cn> ironmcntal impact

made almost impossible

is

ism en* helming. Every day

young people. The

for

the distractions are multiplied

and are more hypnotic and addictive. Like with every addiction, the dosage must be augmented —SO, more

meantime, the bod) logical

is

or physically. There

I)

cannot forget.

that

I

old.

lounging

terminal

in

in his

It

He

hand and he

to

young boy, about

sky

psycho-

fed,

is

in his

B-14

jet fighter,

sea. All these thrills are

game

thrill

holding a

is

of racing 200

or parachuting, or diving

given to him

—

and

free

for

he did not have to face danger.

Aldous has

adolescence.

a beautiful passage about the initiation

Young people have been trained and today they are having a

from child-

in

rock-climbing as part of

test.

Rock-climbing requires

cooperation, coordination, and facing danger. "Danger," Aldous writes,

skill,

"danger deliberately and yet lightly accepted

group of friends, each

at

it

thirteen or fourteen years

experiencing (the copy says) the

is

to the

the school curriculum

his

advertising. In the

whatever

did not have to train his body-mind, did not have to feel fear and

it;

In Island,

hood

just accepting

an advertisement for a computer Nintendo

represents a

under the depth of the

surmount

is

more guns, more

noise, is

an executive armchair, grinning with delight; he

M.P.LL of climbing nothing.

TV, more

not moving,

totally

aware of

his

—danger shared with

own

a friend, a

own

straining muscles, his

skill,

own fear, and his own spirit transcending the fear. And each, of course, aware same time of

the

make

all

the others, concerned for them, doing the right things to

sure that they will be safe."

Do you spoon-fed

doing

see the

thrillers

—through

chasm between

and one

who

his dedication

the training of his

a youth lounging in an armchair and being

experiences his achievement through his

own

and courage and his concern for others, through

body-mind? Which one of these two youths

will

have the

higher self-esteem and therefore better health and more capacity to love and to be a

valuable

DJB:

member

Is that

LAURA: education

part of the education described in Island ?

Yes. Instead of mainly verbal education as is

on

all

DJB: What kind

LAURA: heart.

of society?

I

of advice

would

tell

would you give

are

is

young people

in

here,

in

Island.

to

our

society'.'

them: Respect your body. Incus your mind. Love your

Support and cooperate with anyone

DJB: What

it

levels.

who wants

to

do

the same.

you diunii these days?

—

I.

aura Huxley

LAURA: Now that Karen is seventeen we spend less time together. am becoming again more active on Our Ultimate Investment, the organization I founded in 1978 for "The Nurturing of the Possible Human." The concept is that I

much

human

of the predicament of the

only before birth

—

a fact

which

situation begins not only in infancy, not

now

is

being finally accepted

—but

also in the

physical, psychological, and spiritual preparation of the couple before conception.

We call

"Prelude to Conception."

it

The most

cruel and unanswerable question that, shamefully,

despicable political banner: "Should culture that thinks of itself as

abort or nor abort?"

I

advanced and

civilized.

Must not is more

There

is

now

a

exist in a

attention,

time and care given to choosing an automobile than to the decision of creating the greatest miracle of all: a

miracle,

if

human being.

Surely

the future parents prepare for this

if

they inquire into themselves and their relationship honestly enough,

and then decide Ferrucci and

I

to

have a child, the question of abortion could not exist. Dr. Piero

have written a book, The Child of Your Dreams, which

reissued by Inner Traditions International. In

being, the possible

mind of

human, from

Final

LAURA:

all

voyages

if

we

follow the future

is

being

human

only a thought and a desire in the

is

the parents until three years of age.

most extraordinary of

DJB:

the time s/he

it

It is

an extraordinary voyage, the

one pays attention

to

it.

words?

Final

words

are not

my

own.

When

Ferrucci and

working on "Prelude to Conception," a prayer came to me. only wrote it down. It belongs to everyone. Here it is: "Prayer of the Unconceived"

Men

and

women who

are

on Earth

You are our creators. We, the unconceived, beseech

you:

Let us have living bread.

The

builder of our

new body

Let us have pure water

The

vitalizer of

our blood.

Let us have clean air

So

that

every breath

is

a caress

Let us feel the petals of jasmine and roses

Which

are as tender as our skin.

259

I I

were thinking and did not write

it

Huxlt

Men You We,

Do

and

women who

are the Earth

arc our creators.

the unconceived, beseech you:

not give us a world of rage

and fear

lor our minds will be rage and fear.

Do

not give us violence and pollution

For our bodies will be disease and abomination. Let us be wherever

we

are

Rather than bringing us Into a tormented self-destroying humanity.

women who

Men

and

You

are our creators.

We,

the unconceived, beseech you:

If

you are ready

are the Earth

to love

and be loved,

Invite us to this Earth

Of the Thousand Wonders

And we will be born To love and be loved.

260

Allen Ginsberg "Language joins heaven and earth and joins the mind and the body."

261

Politics, Poetry with Allen Ginsberg

(1 ins berg's

Allen

and Inspiration

poem "Howl, "published

in 1956,

caused such a controversy "

was the subject of an obscenity trial Having received the court 's "approval, went on to become one of the most widely read and translated poems of the

thai it

it

century.

He

is

an extraordinarily prolific

artist,

having had over forty books

published and eleven albums produced.

and literary experimentation with Jack Kerouac and William Burroughs began in 1945, and a decade later as this core group expanded to include other poets and writers, it came to be known as the "Beat Generation. " He has received numerous honors, including the National Book Award for Poetry, a Guggenheim Foundation Fellowship, National Arts Club Medal, 1986 Struga Festival Golden Wreath, and the Manhattan Borough President David Dinkins Medal of Honor for Literary Excellence 1989. Allen's friendship

A potent figure in the cultural revolution of the sixties,

he has been arrested Spock for blocking the Whitehall Draft Board steps, has testified at the U.S. Senate hearings for the legalization ofpsychedelics and been teargassed for chanting "Om" at the Lincoln Park Yippie Life Festival at the 1968 Presidential convention in Chicago. His Collected Poems 1947-1980, were published in 1984 with White Shroud and the 30th Anniversary Howl annotated issue in 1 986. Several books of his photographs and a record/CD of his poetry -jazz album, The Lion for Real, appeared in 1989. He is a member of the National Institute of Arts and Letters, and is Q Distinguished Professor at Brooklyn College and a member of (he with Dr. Benjamin

PEN

American Center. A practicing Buddhist, Allen cofounded Naropa Institute's Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics in Executive Board of Boulder,

(

'olorado.

Oscar Janiger. m Santa Monica. He presents a very dignified and unassuming figure, his non-conforming and wildly creative persona loosely disguised in a professorial suit and tie. We

We

talked with Allen at the house of his cousin,

asked Allen about

madness and

his relationship with

creativity,

and

Burroughs and Kerouac,

the nature of politics

took place on April 23, t992,

six

and

his thoughts

on

revolution. This interview

days before the Ios Angeles uprising*

—RMN

Allen Ginsberg

DJB: What was

ALLEN:

you

that originally inspired

it

My

to start writing poetry?

—

was a poet his Collected Poems were posthumously published they just came out recently, in fact, from the Northern Lights Press in Maine. My father was in the old Untermeyer anthologies and he was one of the standard poets of that genre of lyric poetry that included people like Eleanor Wiley, and Lisette Woodsworth Reece. It's a

family business.

—

DJB: Was

ALLEN:

something

it

No, but

that

I

was

you always knew you were going

always wrote poetry; since

I

father taught high school

Blake when

father

and college, so

five, six,

I

I

knew a

seven years old.

was lot

a kid

I

to

do?

knew

—my

poetry

of Milton, Poe, Shelley and

And I memorized

it,

or

it

just sort of

stuck in my I I was maybe fifteen, or younger, but I never thought of myself as a poet. I just thought that it was something you did on the side like my father had done. But then, when I met Jack Kerouac at the age of seventeen, I realized that he was the first person I had met who saw being a writer as a sacramental vocation. Rather than being a sailor who wrote, he was a writer started writing

head.

when

who also went out on ships. That changed my now I saw it as a sacred vocation. DJB:

attitude

towards writing, because

How did your mother's struggle with mental illness affect your development?

ALLEN:

I've written a great deal about that in the

Shroud.

developed a tremendous tolerance for chaos, other people's

I

and contradictory behavior.

irrationality

duck's back, but

also dulls

it

complaining about

me

their troubles.

I

poem "Kaddish,"

tend to throw

it

in

off like water off a

what people are saying when they're sometimes just shut off and give them a bowl

to hear I

of chicken soup instead of listening carefully. I

tend to be

Jewish mother

—

White

illness,

more concerned with people's comfort and welfare

—

like a

rather than trying to solve a mental problem, a financial prob-

lem or whatever. So

sometimes miss the boat. Quite often there's a tragedy happening and somebody's sinking right in front of me, but I don't see it. On the other hand I have a lot of tolerance for people who use drugs or are half mad. Sort of like

up

how the

after

I

children of alcoholics, in order to develop a kind of balance, clean

everybody else and have a more neat and orderly

seen the chaos and have reacted against

DJB:

It

seems

confronted

at

that

because they've

you would go one way or another. Whenever people

an early age with overwhelming circumstances, they either

are

come

mess or so strong that they can deal with most anything. Either you become comfortable with chaos or you become overwhelmed by it.

out as a total learn to

life

it.

263

— Alien

i

ALLEN: thai

if

rong w

tn

ith

my

probably because

stable,

me

everybody began disagreeing with

something \

compensated by becoming more

I

I

realized

was probably

once, there

all at

perception of the universe. So

I

took a more pragmatic

icw idthcr than an absolute view.

I).]

B:

1

low has

ALLEN:

all

the travelling

Well, again

the

it's

you've done affected your perception of the world?

same

tendency towards abstraction. That's

I

chaos,

I

don't see a lot of detail and have a

why I'm

so concerned with

medicine for

^dp create

Vm sort ofneurotically

much

thing; because I've seen so

don't really see everything. In a sense,

my own

it

neurosis.

a sense of stability.

I

—

I

it's

use

the

it

to

sort of turn

off the chaotic as P ect of travel t0 ° and J ust

untouched by interaction.

continue in whatever work I'm doing like

keeping a journal or taking photographs.

You might even

say I'm sort of neurotically untouched by interaction.

DJB: By what's happening around you?

ALLEN:

Yeah.

It's

maybe

myself from the chaos, and

part of the it's

since

we

started talking about

from

my

mother

we

but since

because I

I

sort of aloof.

an aspect of the other, but

it's

I

I

used to shield

I'm just guessing.

I

mean

one thing, I just transferred it over to the other might have a different answer for a different context,

started out with a very definite idea,

mean, obviously

views, a

going

to travel.

same process with which

made me

saw a

lot

it's

I

just transferred

it

to the other,

not the whole story.

of anthropological blah blah.

A lot of different

of different folk ways, different ways of wiping your behind after

lot

to the

bathroom, different ways of eating, talking, different kinds of

poetics, different religions, meditation practices, different primitive rituals, different takes

on the universe, different nationalisms, different chauvinisms. lot of different things makes your mind more wide

Experiencing a screened, or sophisticated.

with

toilet

—

tolerant. It makes you more sophisticated or maybe less One of the basic things that's changed is my habit of wiping my ass

more

paper.

Now wash my behind afterwards.

and India. Kerouac has a whole book about

DJB: I'm curious have

a

I

I

as to

how

sense of community.

got that from North Africa

that.

important you think

it

is

for writers

and

artists to

How did your experience with other writers like Jack

Kerouac and William Burroughs

affect the style o(

ALLEN:

your

own

writing?

Oh, it affected it very much. Kerouac persuaded me to stop writing rhyme poems and revising everything fifty thousand times to just lay it out on

—

264

Allen Ginsberg

the page in the sequence of thought-forms that arise in

of composition. This

phy

during the time

and

calligra-

Shakespeare never blotted a line according to Ben Johnson.

style.

much

their instruction as the

candor and informality.

We were writing for our

With Kerouac and Burroughs,

whole ambience

—

their directive

own amusement and publication.

ning.

my mind

traditional with twentieth-century painting

is

So the

wasn't so

amusement of our friends, rather than for money or for that nothing would be published from the very beginprivate world of my friends became the center of our artistic activities,

We

the

assumed

rather than the public

DJB: The

it

world of publishing, media, universities and

literature.

collaboration lowered your inhibitions, in terms of the

way you

expressed the creative urge?

ALLEN:

Well, no. If you're just writing for yourself and your friends, then you

don't have to develop inhibitions. People develop inhibitions from the cial or social situation, they're

not born with them.

we were just having we just never devel-

So in this case,

since

commer-

we didn't

expect to succeed and

fun with each other,

oped those F "

in

a result,

JT

we

never developed the

'

r

.

4

,

4

,

style of counterfeit hteralness

that is characteristic of

You know

/»

.

»

•

•

u*h* develop inhibitions.

most university or

academic poetry or prose.

»

andyourfriends, yourself * * ^f >+ t then J you don't have to

.

.

So as manner or

Uyou're just writing for

inhibitions.

that

Naked Lunch? Well, it wasn't necessarily meant to be published. I mean, at that time it was considered impossible, so it wasn't thought of in that realm at all. It was thought of as being just intelligent humor between friends. Burroughs scene, the routine about the talking asshole

DJB: Speaking of Naked Lunch, what Burroughs and Kerouac were portrayed

ALLEN:

Well, Kerouac

was

a

in

did you think of the

way

that you,

in the film adaptation?

good deal

better looking than the character in the

mind that because I'm a wimp, but I can read "The Market Section" which was what he read over the couple fucking much more vividly than the poet in the film. Four days before I saw the film I was teaching a graduate course at CUNY entitled, "Literary History and the Beat Generation." I didn't know that scene was in the film, but I read "The Market Section" to the students when we were discussing Naked Lunch to give them a sense of Burroughs as a panoramic poet. movie. Martin was somewhat of a wimp.

—

It's

—

I

don't

one of the most beautiful passages

in

Burroughs, and the seed of

all

of

Naked Lunch basically, as it intersects the past and future: "In expeditions arrived from unknown places, leave for unknown places with unknown purpose. 265

Followers of obsolete trades. ...Carriers of viruses not yet

bom." This

is

the

interplanetary time-zone market.

he gu)

I

\\

ho pla) ed Burroughs did well, except

routines like the "talking asshole" or the

always did you'd

roll

much more

thai

RMN:

Did you

ALLEN: movie

like the

it

came

to

in the

movie did

it

in a relatively

you don't get the gregarious wildness.

movie otherwise?

thought that Burroughs' plot was better than the movie

I

plot begins with the

who come

to hassle

doing the

uproariously and with such fascinating vigor that

around on the floor laughing. The guy

dignified monotone, so that

when

"Hespano Suiza" auto blowout. Burroughs

plot.

The

Kafka figure being assassinated by two detectives

him. Then,

in the

book, when he rebels against the authority

whole long novel scene turns out to have been an hallucination. So it paralleled many mystical experiences, where you suddenly realize that everything before was maya or samsaric delusion. Burroughs empowered himself, so to speak, by rebelling against Law. figures, the

was a very important point that Burroughs was making, but that point is not made in the movie. On the other hand, Burroughs approves of cut-ups; that's his genre. So he enjoyed it, because it's an improvisation on his work, in his own st) le, that he might well have done himself. The bug powder comes from a book called The Exterminator, so they made combinations of Naked Lunch and this other work plus Queer. Burroughs says a very funny thing. He quotes John Steinbeck when asked, "What do you think of what they've done to your book?" And he says, 'They didn't do anything to my book. My book is up there on the shelf." So I think he It

liked the idea of three

weeks ago.

them improvising on

We made

his text.

I

went

to visit

thirteen ninety-minute tapes,

scribed for an interview for a Japanese magazine, so

Burroughs about

which

we went

are being tran-

to the

movies and

saw the picture.

DJB: That was

ALLEN:

the

first

time either of you had seen

it?

was only the second time he'd seen and it was the third time I'd began to see that the hooks it more watching it with him because which interpolate the movie make a little more sense than I'd thought. It may make complete sense, but haven't been able to figure out the very end. Is that seen

it.

It

it

liked

I

I

I

reality, or

RMN:

I

is

hat

that unreality?

was

DJB: Maybe

left

unanswered.

intentionally. Tell

me, how

l\o

you see the beat movement of the

Allen Ginsberg

fifties

having influenced the hippy movement of the sixties

these cultural

ALLEN:

There are a

lot

see

of different themes that were either catalyzed, adapted,

inaugurated, transformed or initiated by the literary a

—and how do you

movements influencing events occurring today?

community of friends from

the forties.

The

central

movement of the fifties and theme was a transformation

of consciousness, and as time unrolled, experiences that Kerouac, Burroughs and

notion—at

had, related to this

least to

I

..

wid-

is

and ultimate and, lutely unreal

same

time, abso-

I

absolutely unreal

and transitory ..

and transitory and of the nature

of dream-stuff, without contradiction.

r

think

Kerouac had the most insightful grasp of

So

^

absolutely real and final

at the

^

and final and ultiat the same mate rea l

ening the arena of consciousness. For ex-

ample, this world

.this world IS absolutely

—

that already

by 1958.

—

spiritual insight which is permanently universal led to the mind or consciousness in any way shape or form. Whether it was Burroughs through his exploration of the criminal world, or Kerouac through his exploration of Buddhism, or Gary Snyder's meditation practices, or myself who worked with the Naropa Institute under Tibetan Buddhist auspices. Spiritual liberation is the center, and from spiritual liberation comes candor or frankness. So from 1948 on, Burroughs was writing on the Mind, and this somehow that

one

exploration of

moved on to gay liberation, although at the time it wasn't called that. You simply "explicitness" and "openness." In 1952 Burroughs presents his

called

it

script

and

it's totally

overt,

thinking he's being out front;

So

100% it's

out front and out of the closet

just there

—

manu-

not even

because there never was a closet.

would take us to '55 with Gary Snyder and Michael McClure. The latter's major theme is biology and he had insights regarding the reclamation of consciousness which included ecological themes. It's not your traditional poetry. It's modern American folklore, and it influenced everybody. By 1950, Kerouac had already written On the Road which includes the sentence, "The Earth is an that

Indian thing.

"

A very beautiful

DJB: I'm

not sure

ALLEN:

Well,

it

I

slogan.

understand.

ain't

an Empire State thing! Local knowledge of plants,

who live a who relate to

geography and geology comes to the people place without a

lot

of mechanical aids and

bioregionalism, which

DJB: So

comes out of a

sort

then do indigenous and Indian

itself. It's like

of Indian-type thinking.

come from

267

long, long time in one the land

the

same

root?

—

ALLEN: \

ic\\

and sailing I

know Kerouacalso

don'l

I

.

in

On theRoad reflected Oswald Speagler's

of the "fellaheen" people living on the land near the Nile, tilling the soil their boats

gj ptian empire.

who were

up and down,

not affected by the

Theyjusl stuck there, century

crop they were putting

in,

gathering

it

ehanges of the

alter century, putting in

and pounding

whatever

So, the earth

rice.

is

an

Indian thing.

DJB: Do you

see the earth as being like an organism?

ALLEN: No, no, no, absolutely not. None of that bullshit! No Gaia hypothesis. No theism need sneak in here. No monotheistic hallucinations needed in this. Not another fascist central authority.

DJB: That's

interesting, that

whereas others see

fascist

ALLEN:

it

you see the Gaia hypothesis as monotheistic and

as liberating.

One Big Thing. Who says

Well, you've got this

it's

does everything have

/ think there's "no such

there's

thing as one

eyes looking out

—only many

ter is

eyes looking out in all n directions

got to be one?

Why

be one?

think

to

"no such thing as one

—only many

in all directions."

everywhere, not

in

I

any one

The cenDoes

spot.

^ nave to ^ e one or g an sm m me sense of brain, or one consciousness? i

>

one

DJB: Well real

it

could be like you said earlier, about

and a dream. Maybe the earth or the universe

ALLEN:

Well, yeah, but the tendency

godhead and

RMN:

to re-inaugurate the

What do you

AI J JEN:

I

all this

/ dOlt V

crystal

Want to put down

New

to sentimentalize

is

it

into another

New Age movement?

beads and channelling to put

the

how reality is simultaneously many and one at the same time.

whole Judeo-Christian-Islamic mind-trap.

think about the

don't think

is

that

down

Seems

is

spiritual.

1

don't want

New Age, but only

the

like spiritual

an aspect

materialism.

Age, hut only

an aspect that seems like spiritual materialism.

KMN:

'

)o V(U1 scc

is

that's

all tine. It's

basically a verj

good

as a lcss vaIid

P^ nom

-

cna lha,K sav thc s,x!,cs «>unter

t

report

them

.

largely unconscious

and

is

couldn

s true that

in the typical

dream. In

that sense

much

of

unconsciously determined but that doesn't mean that the

unconscious. given to speaking very loosely about saying somebody's conscious or unconscious and we would sometimes hear people describing sleep as being

One

is

is

283

Stephen

I

mB*

unconscious, I

[f

tighten up the language a

you

sleeping person

being Bbsolutel) unconscious.

shorthand for .i

is

little,

you'd say what you mean

unconscious of the environment.

is

When we

It's

say, a person

is

"conscious ofx." What's the "x"? What

is

same thing

not the

"conscious," that

is

as

is

a

consciousness? That's

\cr\ difficult question.

A much

better

way

of putting

what

is,

it

problem

the difference

is

conscious and an unconscious mental process? So

it's

people were having. They just thought

between a

kind of a philosophical

was

So w hen we brought forward scientific evidence, in 1980, their first conclusion was that we obviously must have made some mistake because it just doesn't make sense. think where people's minds had a change was from presenting the that

it

plain impossible.

I

material things.

that?"

conferences to the colleagues

at

There they see

And you

it,

and have

who had

the opinions about these

"Well what about

their opportunity to say,

answer, or you don't, to their satisfaction.

So most people by 1983 who were going to believe it, believed it, and then there were some people who weren't going to believe it no matter what. One skeptic, when he saw the data in 1983, said, "Well, it's all very nice, but it's not dreaming." So I said, "What kind of evidence which you haven't seen so far could prove this to you?"

Admittedly

this

DJB: What was

STEPHEN: was

was

Something

when

he said, "There

few beers

his definition of

that people's

In fact

after a

And

that's not lucid

all

it

that.

dreaming. In other words the problem

concept of what dreaming and what sleep was was too limited.

REM sleep was first discovered

Basically

Story

he said

any kind of evidence."

dreaming then?

looks like

it

was called "paradoxical

sleep" in

were so unexpected, and it's still called wakefulness, and in my view we're seeing the same

Europe because the characteristics of that.

that

isn't

it

over with lucid dreaming. Lucid dreaming shows

that

under some

circumstances the sleeping brain can sustain very high levels of reflective

awareness and function very much like in the waking state. That's not the typical dream to be sure, but it shows it is possible, and therefore one shouldn't say dreams arc necessarily single-minded, non-reflective and hallucinatory.

why

DJB: What do you

think the function oi a

STEPHEN:

know whether dreaming has a special or unique evolutionary answer to why we dream is simple; it's the same reason that

I

don't

timet ion. I'd Bay the

we've tO

gOfl

brains.

dream

is

and

did

it

evolve?

Brains are primarily evolved to produce models of the world,

be able to simulate the environment and to predict what's going to happen so

that

we can

gel

what we want and avoid what we don't want. That's

pressure driving the evolution of nervous systems, 284

in

a

strong

particular primates and

Stepken LaBerge

humans,

which we simulate

to a very high level at

the environment so well that

we're unaware that we're simulating.

We viewing

we

look out and reality; but

what

I

brain that

room

based on sensory input

is

ready to see. Sensory input

good evidence

I

look out

that

we're

sense

way of

at the

two of you and

the tape

sitting in here is not the world,

my world, my mental world.

expectation having to do with

RMN:

when

see

recorder on the table and the unless I'm referring to

common

see the world. That's the

is

all

that

I'm seeing a simulation of my

I'm receiving, plus other patterns of

kinds of other things

great evidence but also

I

expect to see and

memory and

am

expectation

is

too.

So you're saying

that

we dream

as a habitual function of

what we do

during our waking state and dreams don't have any particular purpose?

STEPHEN:

same constructive process that we're using now under the So if the brain is activated in REM sleep, if it's turned be making a world model, it makes a world model, but it's not

It's

the

special conditions of sleep.

on enough

making

to

Now it draws on the other sources that waking state, the expectation, the motivation, bias perception. So it constructs a world that shows us what we

out of sensory input anymore.

it

may have been secondary those biases that

in the

expect, fear, wish for, need and

all that.

RMN:

way

So

it's

not necessarily a

to assimilate

our experience?

STEPHEN: No. It may serve a value, but we didn't evolve a dream in order to do something,

some

we evolved brains

function, but in a

There's no doubt that

know

for sure

RMN: What

in order to

do something. Surely, dreaming serves

way, almost accidental

to the evolution of the brain.

REM sleep facilitates memory consolidation but we don't

whether

that has anything to

do you think

is

do with the dream content or

not.

the purpose of sleep?

STEPHEN: No one knows for sure, but there may be multiple purposes served by

sleep.

almost

On

all

this planet

we have

a strong twenty-four-hour dark-light cycle, and

creatures are adapted to being active in one of those two phases.

Humans are

active in the light as

we are strongly dependent on vision but suppose

you didn't sleep, instead you're awake in the middle of the night in the jungle. Are you more likely to get what you want or what you don't want, wandering around the jungle in the dark? You see? So it makes more sense to have an enforced period of inactivity during the phase of the dark-light cycle at which you're

at a

clear disadvantage.

There are perhaps other energy conservation purposes and other specific 285

— Stephen

I

aBerge

me

functions that sleep serves, but that seems a sufficient argument to

accounting fol

something

why

that's

happens. So one idea about

it

REM

sleep

designed to maintain active enough brains so that

if

is

of

that it's

you need

to

gCf Up tor some reason, you can, and when it's time to get up in the morning you can do that. That's perhaps one of the reasons why REM sleep increases later in

and becomes more frequent and more active. So given

the night

active brain in the context of sleep and

because

RMN:

no sensory

serves a function, but because

it

You've talked about using

propel you into a lucid state;

STEPHEN:

us

tell

fear

—why

input, then

that

we've got an

you get dreams, not

not?

and anxiety

more about

in a

dream

as a catalyst to

this?

Anxiety certainly seems to stimulate reflectiveness and there

be a biological basis for

conscious processing

that, that

evolved as a special problem-solving feature. not enough for you to there's a tiger.

What do you do? You

not just fear;

It's

become conscious. Fear

is:

run. That's

may

seems to have by the way; fear is

in general

here you are in the jungle and

what

fear motivates

you

to

do

avoid and escape.

So

say you climb a tree and the tiger starts to climb up after you.

let's

feel

else can

something new, which

Now

which is fear plus uncertainty and that causes an increased scanning of the environment for alternative actions. What you

I

is

anxiety,

do? What new combination of things?

you throw

the tiger,

at

you see? So

Oh yeah, look, a coconut! Which

in the origins

you can see the rudimentary

consciousness being very strongly associated with anxiety and the re-framing, the re-formulation, the re-scanning of the

out of a problem you're

everyday

in.

You

see that

environment for new ways of getting

same thing

in less

threatening

ways

in

life.

RMN:

So when you're dreaming and you experience anxiety, it's an opportunity then to check out your options and change the outcome. What, to your knowledge, was the earliest documented account of lucid dreaming?

STEPHEN:

Aristotle talks about lucid dreaming.

He

doesn't use that term but he

says thai sometimes during sleep there's something that clearly says to us, this in

your mind,

this isn't really

throughout history where somebody talks about there's very

little

research

de Saint-Denis published

thousands

ot

lucid

is

happening. Then you see accounts here and there this,

usually a philosopher. Yet

West until the nineteenth century when Hervey book on dreams and how to guide them based on

in the

a

dreams he had. Fiedrik van Hcdcn.

in

the late nineteenth

Century coined the term "lucid dream," largely from the psychiatric sense of lucid as in "lucid interval,"

senses tor

a

moment.

where an otherwise normally mad person

will

come

to his

Stephen

RMN: What

I

aBerge

about other cultural awareness of lucid dreaming, the Hawaiians

and Native Americans and the dream-time of the Aborigines?

STEPHEN:

In regard to the Aborigines there

of primal cultures in general, dreaming als;

volved

in these things.

in-

have wondered to

I

what extent shamanistic experiences are

well be a correlation. In terms

usually the business of the profession-

is

your everyday person doesn't get

may

jn

re-

i

erms

f primal

^^ ^ ^

cultures. .dreaming .

lated to lucid

many ways.

dreaming, they sound similar in

American cultures you see something like what I'd call the In Native

,

is

//|m q/

•

f

l

"

**

the

two of you wrecked

opposite of the lucid understanding of the

dream. Let's suppose Porsche, so

RMN:

I

now

I

had a dream

last

They took dreams completely

STEPHEN:

Right. In other

it

which

my

literally.

words they viewed the dream as

version of what must be, and that, in

because

night in

expect reparations, so pay up.

my

view,

is

the supernatural

way

the worst

to take

dreams

takes the freedom of them away. Instead of being able to imagine

anything with no constraints from physical

have to make physically

true.

On

reality,

whatever you imagine you

dreams are

the other hand, in this culture,

considered nothings, you know, things to be forgotten and ignored.

DJB: Just

a dream.

STEPHEN: in

Right.

Where you do

see this developed to high levels however,

is

Tibetan Buddhism, since they've been practicing lucid dreaming probably for

a thousand years.

RMN:

It

seems

be a successful lucid dreamer

that the criteria to

is

similar to that

for being a successful Buddhist, but Dzoghen, one of the branches of Buddhism which practices lucid dreaming, sees it as a very advanced technique only to be embarked upon after a great deal of preparation.

STEPHEN: Some

practices of

Nyingmapas don't tend

to;

Buddhism indeed regard

they tend to say, "Well, give

cultures this had been taken to great extremes and today far

Buddhist practitioners of

we

Have you found any

correlation

between people

287

way. The

in that

some don't know how

a try!"

still

this art are able to take lucid

hoping to be able to do some research on that some time

RMN:

it

it

So

in

dreaming and I'm

in the future.

who

practice

some kind

Stephen

oBerge

I

of meditation and the ability to have lucid dreams?

STEPHEN: reports, in

There's a study by Henry Reed based on some ten thousand dream

w Inch people were asked whether or not they had meditated the day Then the percentage of lucid

before the night that they collect those dreams on.

dreams occurring on nights following meditation the day before was measured. The difference was seven percent versus five percent, so that's two percent

who meditated the day before. We don't know what kind how much or anything of that nature, so there are a lot of questions

difference with people

of meditation,

about

it,

DJB:

It

but the point

is

there

a small difference.

is

can also be the type of person. The type of person

interested in meditation

would be more aware of alternative

who would

realities

and

be

that sort

of thing.

RMN:

Have you found any other criteria such someone a successful lucid dreamer?

STEPHEN: We've

asked about

all

as age or even sex

which makes

of those things and have not found any

way

of predicting to any large extent whether or not a person will report lucid dreams,

except for one thing, and that

is,

how often you remember your dreams. more likely y° u ask do y° u

dream cid dreams If dreams at 6 °" ce a J median split on dream recallers are

FrequentdreamrecaUers are more likely to have .... lucid dreams.

-

*

,.

.

find twice as

many

.,

.

lucid

to

lu-

y° ur

° r find *? K then you 11 J

°®% ,

have

reca11

recall,

dreams

Frequent

tU in the

group

more dreams in general. You can see why that makes sense, because if people don't remember their dreams they don't ever reflect on them in the waking state. Also, what determines dream recall has a lot to do with the habits of what you do in bed. So if you wake up while lucid dreaming, that's one thing; if you wake up thinking it's time to get out oi bed then you're not going to remember dreams. that reports

RMN: You

your book about

talk in

teaching lucid dreaming to children like a

\

cry wonderful thing.

Do you

beginning of

learning about

this.

I

else tells

think

them

this

think that children

Exactly. That's something I'd very

children have extremely

everybody

woman, Mary Arnold

Forster,

it

much

who was

century .That sounds

may

be more receptive

have so many fixed beliefs about what can

partly because they don't

STEPHEN:

a

at the

like to see

be'?

— more children

could be of great value to them considering that most

little

to ^\n.

power; they're basically

So here's

a

world

in

at

the

mercy of what

which they can be

the master.

Stephen LaBerge

Also, in this society,

problems with drugs children.

I

we have

various

think children as adolescents are

from drugs.

the people least likely to benefit

Certainly psychedelics can be useful to

people

at

•••* think there could be real value in developing lucid dreaming as a kindofdrug-abuse

with

that are associated

some circumstances

some

inoculation.

in their lives

but I'd say that hardly ever applies to ado-

who

lescents

on.

It's

already have plenty of change and structures that are in flux going

most valuable for people

the years and

So

the

who need them

problem

No," and the idea

is

that

that the

Let's realize that there

to,

rigid structures that

have

our current approach to

this

seems

only reason that kids ever take drugs

may be

something new, something used

who have

built

up over

loosened up.

other reasons.

to is

be "Just Say

peer pressure.

They may want something

else,

something other than the routine they're

that's fun,

and lucid dreaming could provide

that for

legal and harmonious with their development. So

them, in a I

way

that is safe

and

think that there could be real

value in developing lucid dreaming as a kind of drug-abuse inoculation.

DJB: What kind of recall

techniques, do you think, are the most effective for dream

and actually producing lucid dreams.

STEPHEN:

you were to say, I want to become a lucid dreamer, how should I go about it? I would say that means you've got some extra time and energy in your life, some unallocated attention that you could apply to working on this. If If

you're somebody that's so busy that you have hardly time to take a walk, you're not going to have the time and energy to do

We to use at

have developed a course

home. The

first

in lucid

lesson in there

is

this.

dreaming about

that is

how you

After you've got a sufficient level of dream recall you

start

designed for people

develop dream

recall.

studying your dreams

them? You then start doing exercises that use your focus in your mind on your typical dream content, becoming more reflective and developing your ability to have specific intentions for the

that

dream

signs; what's dream-like about

you carry out

in the future

and so on.

dreaming right now is something you can use either with or without a DreamLight®, which is a device we developed primarily in response to people's requests for methods to help them have lucid dreams. It's a

The course

in lucid

mask that you wear while you're asleep and it flashes a light during REM, not so much as to wake you up but enough to remind you in your dream that you are dreaming.

RMN: A lot of people hear about for the first time;

it

happened

to

this

phenomena and

me when 289

I

first

then have a lucid dream

read your book.

How much

do

.

Stephen

I

aBerge

you think

that realizing this

STEPHEN: \

possible

can doit However,

that you

DOf sure

can"

1

linked to the ability to lucid dream?

is

That's clearly important, and what you've just described happens

when you

cry frequently. Part of what you learn

is

people, then it

is

it

is

if

The problem

a barrier.

how to have

learn

you're thinking, "I'm not sure

gives you the idea that

it

since

is,

must be

thinking

I

want

this to

of thinking that

difficult, instead

happens simply because you never have the mental

rarely

happen, and I'm intending to do

dreams

lucid

can," that "I'm

happens for most

rarely

it

I

set

where you're

this.

RMN: What are some of the benefits that you've observed and experienced from developing

this skill?

STEPHEN: The

dreaming range from

applications of lucid

Tahiti, the adventure

and exploration and

thrill

part of

it,

to the

the poor

the practice, trying things out in the St

we'vefoundthatwhenyou ., dream, you do something ?to your brain that s as if you ve actually done it. ,

,

.

that

f

dream

you've learned. You can also de-

velop v motor skills or work on overcoming . .. shyness, overcoming nightmares, dealing

.

,

,

man's

mental rehearsal,

.

,

,

with fears and of course there health aspect of

it

>

mental

s the

might have exten .

that

sions into a broader sense of health.

On

the basis of

mind-body experiments

the signaling technique,

your brain that's as

if

we've found

that

that

we've done

at

Stanford using

when you dream, you do something

you've actually done

it.

So

to

there are very strong relation-

dream content and physiological response which we think could

ships between

be used for facilitating healing, facilitating the function of the

immune system

in

some way.

DJB: Have you done any

STEPHEN:

No, but

studies

in the

on

that?

book Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming, we

published anecdotes of people doing some kinds of healing. uncontrolled

dream

a lucid

don't

know

it

RMN: What tional

in that in it

having

a

at

would have got

some is

point in time that

healed and sure enough

better

on

its

own

or

at

what

it

to

have

gets better, but

rate

all

we

and so on.

about the potential tor incorporating lucid dreaming into an educa-

program

STEPHEN:

they decide

which something

These are

they're going

in the

sense ot deep-learning?

The most important kind of sleep-learning that you can do

tape recording and trying

to pipe

more

is

not

factual information into you.

Stephen LaBerge

Sleep time

is

not a very

in information,

good time

for taking

but lucid dreams are an ex-

cellent opportunity for experiential learn-

about the wisdom of

ing, for finding out

life—having an encounter with a dragon, for example,

which you won't ever have

opportunity for in the waking

have to have the courage mental image

state.

the

w" a

y ou ca^ learn jrom your experiences in the lucid dream state are things that can apply to your waking State* •

•

'

*

You

to resist the fear that you'll actually feel, to say this

—

a mental image can't hurt me, and then to act on that. would advise having a conversation, making friends with the dragon. The point is that what you can learn from your experiences in the lucid dream state are things that can apply to your waking state. When you learn that when you face your problems and fears you overcome them, and things turn out better than they do when you simply try to avoid them, that generalizes and you have more sense of self-confidence that you can do things. Your security can improve as you realize that you can handle difficult situations if you keep your

dragon

is

a

I

head about you.

DJB:

It

actually sounds real similar to Virtual Reality.

STEPHEN:

Right.

To

put

it

in

terms of Virtual Reality,

I

would say

that lucid

dreaming is high resolution Virtual Reality with appropriate technology now. The best computers we can get are our brains. If you look at the pluses and minuses of the ... lucid dreaming is two approaches, you see with lucid dreamhigh resolution Virtual ing that you have something which is not Reality,.. can't record a lucid

directly shareable;

I

dream and say

you try

here,

it.

The Virtual

Reality with an external computer that

generates everything has the potential of doing that, but it's

more

like

watching a videotape than

Jaron Lanier has complained about intuitive surprise,

the lucid

dream

flying,

you know,

your doing

it's

just like a playback;

actually doing something.

VR not having that unexpectedness and in lucid

dreaming. Clearly

much more felt reality. At this point no one has anything of how you can be embodied in VR. If you're driving a car, or has

that's easy to represent

and there's the picture out there

want your body

is

and of course there's plenty of that

state

near to a solution

it

to

-

and

because

all

you see

that feels real.

be walking, you see the

is,

here's the wheel

Yet the moment

picture move, but you don't

that

you

feel like

it.

DJB: Well,

in

North Carolina they've developed treadmills

sensation of walking with tactile sensors.

291

that simulate the

.sicpfnn

i

tBerge

STEPHEN: Oka)

suppose you want

,

go

to

Sorry you can't, you can

to the lab?

Old) walk this way.

DJB:

actually has a steering

It

STEPHEN:

RMN:

In

column

Well, okay, the point

terms of the difference

lucid dreaming,

that

allows you to change direction.

technology

this stage the

is, at

in the potential for

shaman buddies

STEPHEN:

I

empathy between

something

that

I

that.

who

and

claim to be able to

emphasized instead controlling myself and

consider

I

it

to

be theoreti-

was of developmental value

felt

There are many aspects of dream control

all.

VR

in their sleep.

haven't really experimented with

cally possible, but it's not

of

limited.

have you explored the possibility of conscious dream sharing

with another person? I've read about Alaskan shamans visit their

is

my

that

first

haven't pursued. I've

I

responses to what happens,

instead of making it magically different, because I've wanted something that would generalize the waking state. In this world we don't have the power to

magically

make

other people appear and disappear.

There have been a few people who've and I've that

"Okay do

said,

so."

said, "I

can

visit

you

in

your dream,"

But I've never experienced an unequivocal success

remember.

I

think the problem

I

state into the

dream

lucid dream.

Here

real to

me

it is,

so you'll

think you'd do that,

is

state.

that

we

tend to bring mental models from the waking

So we have expectations

it's all

so real, and so hey!

in the

dream, especially

You two

in a

people look perfectly

remember this conversation later, right? Now why would any more that I would think this table would remember this I

conversation?

One to

be

of the things you have to do in developing

critical

make some assumptions that make sense? So you can therefore

think, did

didn't

I

build up mental I

and

I

said.

dreamed

models

in a lucid

dream

that

my body

What?

dream! Your

make

Tins

is

a in

your

is

refine

and

is

a lucid

clarify

I

was

your thinking and

flying above the San Francisco Bay,

asleep over there. Til go

own dream; how

that extra ct tort don't

visit

it.

And woke and I

body's not in there or you'd be in trouble could you wake up? People

il

who

tend to learn.

—

RMN: Some the

with lucid dreaming

that are appropriate to the dream world.

had the thought,

your body's asleep don't

skill

wake up from

dream and you were inappropriate or do something that

of your state of mind. So you

inventions have come about through lucid dreaming for example, sewing machine and part of Hinstcin's equations. Have you found a link

between

creativity

and lucid dreaming? 292

Stephen

STEPHEN: We

is

good.

that

we

I

get a great

some

problem

is

we might

than

kind. It's surely a state

that not every idea

is in

you get

giving people the sense

imagine.

dream can be analogous

lucid in a

tor

to

what people

call a

awakening?

STEPHEN:

Yeah. Giving people the idea of what

everyday

that

ideas; the

much wider world

DJB: So becoming spiritual

many

think the major value of lucid dreaming

live in a

aBerge

have anecdotes from people who've used lucid dreaming

creative problem-solving or artistic creation of

where you can

I

life

is

life

would be

like if we realize

sleep-walking and that there can be a further kind of

awakening.

RMN:

It

seems

that lucid

dreaming can do much

develop their sense of themselves.

Do you

to help people

broaden and

see lucid dreaming becoming a

successful part of a psychotherapeutic program?

STEPHEN: Oh yes, very clearly. we

have, what

I

think has the most definite proved value so

psychotherapists

dreaming

is

the

that they are

have

think that's one of the strongest applications

I

who

are using

it,

but

most obvious approach

to

far.

There are a few

has been slow to catch on. Lucid

it

overcoming nightmares,

telling

people

imagining fears and they just

to exercise

courage to face

it

^ yalue f lucid Jhe dreaming is as a means

somehow.

^

#

I'd sav ereat value of lucid 1 that the & r dreaming is as a means of self-development, i*a -ru \a i a sort of self-therapy. This would apply to

7

.

J

i

,

r ir , f ofself-development,asort r J •* , f selj-therapy. OJ .

f

people that have an interest in getting to

,

know themselves

better and becoming more would think that people who are interested in something like Jungian analysis would be good candidates for this kind of thing, where they can take responsibility for the individuation process and help to further it in the dream state.

whole.

I

DJB: Has your experience with psychedelics influenced your

STEPHEN: in the

In a

way.

mind and before

It

was one of the

that, as

I

things that inspired

said earlier,

At

interested only in the outside world.

tryptamine molecules.

I

thought that

if

I

I

had no

first

I

research?

me to take an

wanted

to

interest

was make analogs of

interest in the

mind,

I

could modify these molecules then they

would really work by telling you all instead of telling you almost everything. That was my naivete, not realizing that the problem wasn't the molecule; the problem was the mind. Going from the ordinary state of perceiving the world to an extraordinary 293

Stephen

l

aBerge

would think so this is what it's really like! Of course was back in the usual state, comparing the two, realized, of course, thai wasn't what it was like and this is not what it's like. They're both menial models or simulations. It's something that was very important for me in terms of understanding the power of the mind and seeing how just changing some State of perceh ing the world.

the next

when

day

1

I

1

of the operations paramenters different

\

iew of the world.

perceptual system could lead to a radically

in the

think

I

shocking and a tragedy what's happened

it's

with the illegality of these substances, preventing scientific research and therapeutic

use and

RMN:

look forward to the day

I

There seems

There's a

that changes.

be a correlation between psychedelic consciousness and

to

lucid consciousness in the

STEPHEN:

when

dream

lot in

state.

common between the two states. in the

psychedelic

and

produce an

effect

STEPHEN: And experiences

is

«

•

what

DMT that

shows it's

I

keep taking It

it

produce an y

in his

is that

full

what prevents us from having these

So in a way psychedelics

the potential in the

mind.

terms of taking us to the visions they show

I'll

effect.

dreams and then has the

the mental framework.

the mistaken path of saying, well since

should help.

dream "psyche-

experience.

can be a kind of guide in revealing some of in

it

In fact people can,

take a

DJB: Terence McKenna says that he smokes

i

not the chemical,

have limitations

state,

delic" and have

„„ M in the # can dream state, take a dream „„. /^ ...people

dream

had the

I

taste

of

it

work

that

One can

take

with the substance,

eventually get the whole thing because

doesn't seem to

us.

think they

I

more of

the

if

same

way.

RMN: Do

you think that lucid dreaming is a more valid approach to personal development than psychedelics in as much as it can become more of a yoga, or do you think they're equally likely to have a long-lasting beneficial effect on someone's

life?

STEPHEN: if

they're

would say almost any experience can be valuable to a person prepared to make use of it, and psychedelics or lucid dreams can be

very useful

happens

Well,

if

to a

I

a person heeds the lessons that experience brings.

person that matters,

it's

what they make of

it.

It's

In a

not what

way

lucid

dreaming requires more of your own responsibility in making it happen and dealing With it. It's easy enough to take a pill and that can put you in a relatively passive role.

294

Stephen

DJB: But you can

STEPHEN: direct it

it

in a

take an active role in

That's right, the question

in the

DJB: Have you

aBerge

it.

what do you do with

is:

way where you seek for what you're looking for

can be used

I

this state?

Do you

inside yourself?

So

same way.

noticed any correlation between people

who

use psychedclics

and a propensity towards lucid dreaming? Every time I've done a psychedelic, within a couple of days

I'll

almost always have a lucid dream.

STEPHEN: Yes, that is probably due to biochemical changes. Taking psychedelics will produce

REM

changes of neurochemical levels which will intensify

Basically what you've done

you've pushed

it

away from

sleep.

you've altered the regulation of the system and so

is

the equilibrium and

perhaps oscillate for a while until

it

gets back into

it's

its

going

to

come back and

new equilibrium. So

it's

not

surprising that in the next couple of nights you're going to have variations in

REM sleep. RMN: What is known about the chemicals given off by the brain in REM sleep? STEPHEN:

Relatively

low

levels of norepinephrine and serotonin, high levels

of acetylcholine.

DJB: How

in the

STEPHEN:

world did they figure

that out?

Cat brains.

DJB: How about

out-of-the-body-experiences.

Do you

think they're related to

lucid dreaming?

STEPHEN:

It's

a complicated topic and

Dreaming because

it's

I

devoted an entire chapter to

something you have

to deal

not what people naively think they are, which

with carefully.

is literally that

I

it

mLucid

think they're

you're leaving your

some ghost body in the physical world. Let's take what happens an out-of-the-body experience (OBE). Typically people are lying in bed, awake at least they think they are. Next thing they know, they feel themselves

physical body in in

—

separating from that body as

may

one, and then they physical body.

Now

So

if

they have a second body that floats out of the

down and

look back

let's just

examine

that idea for consistency.

I'm floating up here, and then

notice that there's a

window where

where there should be and so

I

say,

first

see what they take to be their

I

look around

at

the

bedroom and

there shouldn't be or there's no

"Oh, 295

I

guess that wall there

is

I

window

not exactly a

phen

Ste

I

uBerge

maybe

physical wall,

an astral bed

thought w as

— and what's

my

what happened suddenly

an astral wall, and of course then that's an astral floor,

it's

that

down on

physical body?"

It's

assumption

to the

that

The reason people

e\ aporated.

you leave your body, and since

it

moment ago

the astral bed that a

I

an astralbody or a dreambody. Therefore,

I'm moving find

in

physical space?

so compelling

it

feels like

it,

that's

that

is

it

It's

feels like

what you believe

is

happening.

our experiments

In

in the laboratory,

10%

were recorded, about

out of about 100 lucid dreams that

of those had out-of-body phenomenologies. So

we

analyzed the physiology associated with the out-of-the-body-experience-type lucid

dream compared

istic that

predicts that a person

are out of their body.

I

is

likely

And what we found was

was much more

that there

awakening before the experience.

likeliness of a brief

Now,

dreams to see if there's some characterto have a dream in which they think they

to the other lucid

way

think the

—

association with sleep

the

is,

OBE takes place— in the typical form, which is in

you're lying in bed, you

wake

up, you're awake.

It's

REM sleep, so you're now in the context of going back into REM sleep and

from

what happens input

is

is

that

you

fall

cut off and you've got

asleep without

knowing

it.

now the memory of the body

Suddenly the sensory instead of the sensory

perception of the body.

A moment been cut

ago your body had weight but

off; there's not

sensory input for

propose, the same thing happens as

it,

now so

it

that gravitational force has

suddenly disappears and,

when you pick up an empty

I

carton of milk.

flies upwards and you feel as if as there's a force going up compensates for your mental model of your body-weight. When you perceive that the weight is less than expected by your mental model you explain that

Suddenly your body that

as an

upward

force.

DJB: What do you

think about near-death experiences,

when people

feel they're

leaving their body?

STEPHEN: ate.

Another factor

There are some people

that

can produce an

OBE

who can much more

is

the capacity to dissoci-

readily than others detach

themselves from their current experience. Once you detach

it's

possible then to

reconstruct a view of reality that involves you outside the situation

most people, the)

tor that to

re (ailing

happen, they either need the context of

somehow. For

REM

sleep, or

off a mountain, or they've just been declared dead, or something.

That's quite an emotional shock and

it's

enough

to

produce dissociation which

then allows you to reorganize the experience.

Now

yoil hear

that the) shouldn't that; there

mav

be

stones about people

in

near-death experiences seeing things

be able to see and that sort of thing. Well,

some paranormal information

I

don't deny them

transfer occasionally in these

Stephen LaBerge

experiences, but

I

think

we

how much knowledge we

underestimate

our surroundings through other senses.

don't buy the account that

I

have about

we

leave in

some second body. That second body, does it have a brain in there? What are the fingers for? If you pulled an eye out, would it look like an eye or is it just a mental model of an eye? It seems clear that that's what it is. It's one of those ideas that people are very attached to for some reason and I think it's a misplaced sense of the value of individual survival. They think "this proves that I survive death because I was there!" Yet I don't think that's what we want to survive death. Why would we want these funky monkey forms to persist forever?

DJB: What do you

think happens after biological death and has your experience

with lucid dreaming influenced your thoughts in this area and about the nature of

God?

STEPHEN: "Oh,

this is a

Let's suppose I'm having a lucid dream.

dream, here

what's happening in fact

world a

at all,

little bit

little

more

I

am."

is that

Stephen

and he's having a dream

of lucidity I'd say, "This lucidity

and

I'd

know

is

that he's in this

is

I

thing

first

think

I

think Stephen

is.

is,

Now

asleep in bed somewhere, not in this

room

With

talking to you.

a dream, and you're

all in

you're a dream figure and this

is

my

dream."

A

a dream-table,

this must be a dream-shirt and a dream-watch and what's this? dream-hand and well, so what's this? It's a dream Stephen!

and a

The

Now the "I" here is who

It's

—

got to be

So a moment ago I thought this is who I am and now I know that it's just a mental model of who I am. So reasoning along those lines, I thought, I'd like to have a sense of what my deepest identity is, what's my highest potential, which level is the most real in a sense? With that in mind at the beginning of a lucid dream, I was driving in my sports car down through the green, spring countryside.

I

see an attractive hitchhiker at the side of the road, thought of picking her up

but said, "No, I've already had that dream;

my

I

want

this to

be a representation of

highest potential."

So

the

moment

I

had

that thought

and decided

to forgo the

immediate

pleasure, the car started to fly into the air and the car disappeared and

my

body,

also. There were symbols of traditional religions in the clouds, the Star of David

and the cross and the steeple and Near Eastern symbols. As

I

passed through that

beyond the clouds, I entered into a vast emptiness of space that was this infinite and it was filled with potential and love. And the feeling had was was is home\ This is where I'm from and I'd forgotten that it was here. overwhelmed with joy about the fact that this source of being was immediately present, that it was always here, and I had not been seeing it because of what was in my way. So I started singing for joy with a voice that spanned three or four octaves and resonated with the cosmos with words like, "I Praise Thee, O Lord!" realm, higher

I

— I

297

— Stephen

I

oBi

There w asn't any

w

that's what

of that,

was no

there it.

My

is

recognized that the deepest identity

1

that

was here

I

these separate snowflake identities.

sense that each one of us

snow Hake and we're

is,

now,

right

-j

f+.

u

+

diviauahty, but not

I

I

I

had there was the source of being,

that

was what

I

was

too, in addition that

is

we have

same So here is death, and here's the ocean. So what do we fear? We fear

we're going

different in the

is

to lose

.

,

snowflake

I

So we're each one of these

ocean and we>11

mayJ happen K,

in essence,

the

t

infi-

was water!

frozen droplets and

we

is

now God

a

the ocean.

So we're each

only our

feel

individuality, but not our substance, but our essential substance is

is that

ocean and feels an

expansion of identity and realizes, what

was

little

.

.

hits the

our identity, we'll

in that

'

De gone; but what b „

our

so

void

thought about the meaning

be melted dissolved

in-

nite

in that sense,

this

in fact, distinct.

substance.

everything

Be"

but, "Praise

had of

use for understanding this

falling into the infinite

we feel only our

When

Every snowflake

that

j-

experience

that the

the brain.

being Stephen. So the analogy that

. . .

no Lord, no duality

thee,

belief

takeaway

if you

you get

and nothing

the all to

1,

as sort of the feeling of

common little

to

droplet

of that ocean, identifying only with the form of the droplet and not with the

majesty and the unity.

RMN: Do

you believe

STEPHEN: phor"

—

that the soul then reincarnates into another

There may be intermediate

the seed crystal

form or something

is

care about.

I

identity of

Stephen survives

one not be

satisfied with

DJB: in

If

I

were able

to,

—

my

So whether

concern.

well, that'd be nice

down

to

every

That would be "Stephen,"

last trace

need some kind

for all

we know

structure in

it

that

concern

if

were

that

is

with the

some deeper

so, but

if

that's

—would

that

how

what you mean.

I

if

you had something

was

like

you

sufficiently

don't see a

some

just

other

described

complex, you'd

ot substrate to sustain the different informational states

the

can

be you?

the information in our brain to

with nanotechnology, or a digital computer that still

My

or not Stephen, or

being the ocean?

why we couldn't transfer structure. It may be, for example, reason

"to press the meta-

through nanotechnology, completely replicate every atom

your brain, identically

STEPHEN:

—

recycled and makes another snowflake in a similar

like that, but that's not

ocean; that's what

where

states

form?

vacuum of space

could easily sustain

a

itself

mind.

may have

and

an infinite amount of

Stephen LaBerge

We

DJB:

how

interviewed Nick Herbert, the quantum physicist, and he described

there are mathematical

that leave a lot

of latitude for things like

and other dimensions. Have you ever entertained

parallel universes

model

models

this as a

for lucid dreaming, that there actually really are other dimensions or

places that are not just mental simulations or constructs?

STEPHEN:

I

think of those as skew, not parallel, universes. Seriously, I've

seems tremendously inelegant to require that, every quantum decision, the thing you didn't decide on is still there in seems like a reductio ad absurdum of quantum theory. People think

never liked that model; time you

make

it

a

some way. It quantum theory

is

about the world but

making

measurement

the

is

it's

not; it's about descriptions of the

you don't make a measurement? Well, making the world the world is interaction.

world. What's the world really like

if

—

In other words, as a thought experiment, let's think about an object. is

right here

not only

is

on

it

the table.

invisible as

other thing in the world

universe

is

I

just pointed as if the

you can see but

—

is

it

it

space encloses

it.

Well,

doesn't interact in any

it

way with any universe? The

No. What is the some form with the other objects

a part of the world?

a collection of objects that interact in

Here

let's say,

of the world.

DJB: Can you working on?

tell

STEPHEN: The

us about the Lucidity Institute and any current projects you're

purpose of the Lucidity Institute

is to

sponsor and support

human consciousness and what we're focusing on now is primarily lucid dreaming because that is one capacity of the mind that we feel is useful. If we knew more about the physiology of lucid dreaming we will be able to make it research on

happen more tions,

and

readily, to find other mental techniques or physiological interven-

perhaps some drug effects that could make the state

much more

accessible

stable.

To

help people

make more viable

decisions about what they're going to do

more experience out of the world, but basically to understand that many more possibilities than we ordinarily think of. In the lucid dream you look around and realize that the whole world that you're seeing is all something that your mind is creating. It tells you that you have much more power for changing the world, starting than you'd ever believed before or dreamed in life, to get life

can have

—

—

with yourself.

299

Glossary Algorithm:

A

recipe outlining the steps in a procedure for solving a problem; often used

describe key methods used in a computer program.

to

Androcratic: See "Dominator Society."

At tractors:

A term used in modern dynamics to denote a limit towards which trajectories

of change within a dynamical system move. Attractors generally

lie

within basins of

attraction.

Axons:

A thin neuronal branch that transmits electrical impulses away from the cell body

to other

Basin:

A

neurons (or

to

muscles or glands).

supporting element and/or foundation in a mathematical equation. In fractals

these are the areas of dense information.

Bell's

A

Theorem:

mathematical proof derived from physics demonstrating that when-

ever two particles interact, they are thereafter connected in a mysterious faster-than-

way known as light

Bifurcation:

that doesn't

the

The

diminish with time or distance and can't be shielded. Also

"mechanism of

splitting or

non-locality."

branching of possible states that a system can assume due to

changing parameters.

Chaos Theory:

A new

perspective emerging out of the study of dynamics that

discovering and mapping a high level of order and pattern

in

is

what has long been

thought to be random activity.

Chaotic Attr actor:

Copenhagen in some

Any

attractor that is

more complicated than

a single point or cycle.

Interpretation: Physicist Niels Bohr's notion that an sense, not real, and

its

unmeasured atom

is,

attributes are created or realized through the act of

measurement. Cybernetics:

A

term coined by Norbert Weiner, meaning the study of communication,

feedback, and control mechanisms

Dendrites: Tiny tree-like branchings

Differential Topology:

at

in living

systems and machines.

the electrical impulse-receiving end of a neuron.

The study and mapping of changing

Dimorphism: Biological division

of structure in a species,

Directed Panspermia: Irancis Crick's theory 300

surfaces.

such as for sexual reproduction.

to explain the origin of life

on earth. He

hypothesizes that spores traveling through space on the back of meteorites seed planets throughout the galaxy.

DMT:

Dimetyltryptamine

— an extremely powerful,

short-acting hallucinogenic mol-

ecule found in the South American shamanic brew Ayahuasca.

DNA:

Deoxyribonucleic acid

—

the long

complex macro-molecule, consisting of two

interconnected helical strands, that resides in the nucleus of every living

cell,

and

encodes the genetic instructions for building each organism.

Dominator Society:

A type of society in which one sex, or one group, dominates or rules known

over another. Also

as "Androcratic."

Dynamical Systems Theory: Mathematical models devised cesses of whole systems. Dynamics: The study of systems and seeks

ics,

ECCO:

to devise

in

for understanding the pro-

motion, which overlaps both physics and mathemat-

mechanical models used to understand processes.

John Lilly's acronym for the Earth Coincidence Control Office.

hierarchy of entities the

who manage

motion of human beings along

EEG: Electroencephalogram

—

A

hypothetical

coincidences in a fashion intended to accelerate their psycho-spiritual evolutionary

electrical potentials

pathways.

recorded by placing electrodes on

the scalp or in the brain.

Field:

A

region of physical influence that interrelates and interconnects matter and

energy. Fields are not a form of matter; rather matter

is

energy bound within

fields.

Fractal: Computer-generated images corresponding to mathematical equations, that repeat self-similar patterns at infinitely receding levels of organization.

Gaia:

A

model

for interpreting the

dynamics

that

occur on planet earth as being part of

a single self-regulating organism.

Genome: The complete

set

of genetic material or genes for a single organism.

Gylanic: See "Partnership Society."

Holographic: The condition upon which the information for creating a whole system stored in each of

its

parts.

Hypnogogic: The twilight ery, that occurs as

is

one

state is

of awareness, characterized by vivid dream-like imag-

falling asleep.

301

Hypnopompic: The dream-like

stale

of awareness that occurs as one

waking up from

is

sleep.

information: Non-predictable patterns that carry a message.

information Theory:

A

branch of cybernetics that attempts

amount of

to define the

information required to control a process of given complexity.

Ketamine:

/

efl

A

dissociative anesthetic agent with profound psychedelic properties.

Brain: The S)

hemisphere of the human brain associated with the processing of

left

mbolic information

Limbic System:

A

mode.

in a linear, analytical

region of the brain believed to be important

in the

processing of

emotions.

Lucid Dreaming: The phenomenon of being conscious and aware while one

Mechanism of Non-locality: See

Meme: A

that

one

is

dreaming,

the process of dreaming.

is in

"Bell's

Theorem."

term coined by Richard Dawkins,

who

defines

it

as "a unit of cultural

inheritance, hypothesized as analogous to the particulate gene and as naturally

selected by virtue of

its

'phenotypic' consequences on

its

own

survival and replica-

tion in the cultural environment."

Metaprogramming

Circuits:

A

hypothesized part of the brain that

is

responsible for

over-riding social and cultural conditioning.

Morphic unit

Field: Defined by Rupert Sheldrake as "a field within and around a morphic

which organizes

its

characteristic structure and pattern of activity.

underlie the form and behavior of holons or morphic units ity.

at all

levels

They

of complex-

This term includes morphogenetic, behavioral, social, cultural, and mental

fields.

They

morphic

are

units,

shaped and stabilized by morphic resonance from previous similar

which were under the influence

consequently contain a kind of cumulative

o\'

fields of the

memory and

tend to

same

kind.

become

They

increas-

ingly habitual."

Morphic Resonance: The influence of previous structures oi similar structures of activity organized by morphic fields. Morphogenesis: The coming

Morphogenetic Field: development

ol

A

into

activity

on subsequent

being of form.

non-material region o\ influence thai guides the structural

organic forms.

— A scanning technique

MR1: Magnetic Resonance Imagery

that creates a visual

image

using electro-magnetic fields to see inside the body.

Nanotechnology: Atomic engineering robots, and

computers

that are

—

the ability to devise self-replicating machines,

molecular sized.

Natural Selection: Charles Darwin's theory of biological evolution, based on the survival and replication of the fittest and

most adaptable genes, through competition

over limited natural resources.

Neural Network:

An

interconnected system of brain

cells.

Neurophysiology: The physiological study of the nervous system. Non-linear Dynamics: The study of chaotic processes.

A term coined by Teilhard de Chardin, defined as a non-material sheath that

Noosphere:

surrounds the earth, containing

Paradigm:

Paradigm

A cognitive

Shift:

model

A change

Paranormal: Phenomena

all

of humanity's cultural achievements.

for explaining a set of data.

in the

perception of information.

that are out of the

realm of that which

is

explainable through

conventional science.

Partnership Society:

A type of society in which both sexes and all people have complete

equal rights and representation, and live together in peaceful cooperation. Also

known

PCP:

as "Gylanic."

Phencyclidine

— an

analgesic-anesthetic

compound with powerful hallucinogenic

effects.

Peptides:

A compound

consisting of two or several amino acids.

Phase Portrait: Images

that display the state of a

Phenome: The smallest

linguistic unit.

Quantum Physics: The

REM: The

scientific study of

system

sub-atomic

at a

moment

frozen

in time.

reality.

phase of the sleep cycle where there are "rapid eye movements," and

dreaming occurs.

303

Righi Brain:

I

he right hemisphere of the

human

brain which

is

associated with pattern-

recognition and nonlinear holistic thinking.

Selfish

Gene Theory: Darwin's theory of

which proposes

natural selection applied at the genetic level,

that the unit of selection in evolution is not the species or the

organism, but the gene.

Separairix:

The threshold between

Sociobiology:

The

attractors in a

dynamic system.

biological study of social behavior in animals, based upon the

understanding that social behaviors can be genetically encoded and evolve through the evolutionary process of natural selection.

Space-time Warp:

A crinkle, tear, or bend

Strange Attractor: The orbital point that is neither fixed

Teleology:

space-time continuum.

mathematical mapping of a dynamic system

nor oscillating, but rather spirals inward.

map

Tangles: Diagrams that

in the

in the

the skeletal structure of a dynamical system.

The study of ends or final

causes; the explanation of

phenomena by

reference

to goals or purposes.

Theory of Formative Causation: The hypothesis that organisms or morphic units at all levels of complexity are organized by morphic fields, which are themselves influenced and stabilized by morphic resonance from Topological Manifold: Unified Field Theory: the

known

A

all

previous similar morphic units.

multi-leveled surface area.

The Holy

Grail of physics,

which would mathematically unite

all

forces of the universe under a single comprehensive framework.

Virtual Reality: Interactive technology the convincing illusion that

one

is

which

totally controls

completely immersed

world.

304

sensory input and creates in a

computer-generated

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CD. Shaw)

Dynamics, the Geometry of Behavior: (with

Volume

1

-

Periodic Behavior, Ariel Press, 1982.

Volume 2 Volume 3

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Chaotic Behavior, Ariel Press, 1983.

Volume 4

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Global Behavior, Ariel Press, 1984.

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Bifurcation Behavior, Ariel Press, 1988.

Trialogues on the Edge of the West (with Eros, Gaia

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Dissolution, McGraw-Hill, 1977.

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The Chalice and the Blade, Harper/Collins, 1987. The Partnership Way (with D.Loye), Harper/Collins, 1990. Allen Ginsberg

Howl and Other Poems,

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Kaddish and Other Poems, City Lights, 1961.

Empty Mirror, Totem/Corinth, 1961. The Yage Letters (with W.Burroughs), City Lights, 1960. Reality Sandwiches, City Lights, 1963.

Airplane Dreams, Anansi/City Lights 1968.

Ankor Wat, Fulcrum, 1968. Indian Journals, City Lights, 1970.

The Gates of Wrath, Four Seasons, 1972. Iron Horse, Coach House, 1972.

The Fall of America: Poems of These States 1965-1971, City Lights, 1973. Allen Verbatim,

McGraw

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The Visions of the Great Rememberer, Mulch, 1974. Gay Sunshine Interview (with A.Young), Grey Fox, 1974.

Chicago Trial Testimony, City Lights, 1975. To Eberhart from Ginsberg, Penmaen, 1976. Sixties, Grove, 1977.

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As Ever: Collected Correspondence Allen Ginsberg & Neal Cassady, Creative Arts, 977. Mind Breaths, Poems 1971-76, City Lights, 1978. Poems All Over the Place, Mostly '70's, Cherry Valley, 1978. Composed on the Tongue, Grey Fox, 1980. Straight Heart's Delight: Love Poems & Selected Letters, (with P.Orlovsky) Gay Sunshine, 1

1980.

Plutonium Ode: Poems 1977-1980, City Lights, 1982. Collected

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Howl Annotated, (with A. Young) Harper A Row. 1986. White Shroud Poems 1990-1985, Harper & Row, 1986. Your Reason and Blake*s System, Hanuman Books, 1988. Nina (iraboi

One Foot

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future, Ariel Press, 1990.

Nick Herbert

Quantum Reality, Doubleday,

1985.

New American Library, 1988. New Physics, Penguin USA, 1993.

Faster Than Light: Superluminal Loopholes in Physics,

Elemental Mind:

Human

Consciousness and the

Laura Arch era Huxley You are Not the Target, Farrar, Straus This Timeless

&

Moment Mercury House, ,

Giroux, 1963. 1991.

Between Heaven and Earth, Hay House, 1991.

OneADayReason

to

be Happy (with Dr. Piero Ferrucci), Metamorphous Press, 1991.

The Child of Your Dreams, Inner Traditions International Ltd, 1992.

Oscar Janiger Different Kind of Healing, Putnam, 1993.

A

Carolyn KJeefeld Satan Sleeps with the Holy, Horse

&

Bird Press, 1982.

Climates of the Mind, Horse and Bird Press, 1979.

Lovers

in Evolution,

Horse and Bird Press, 1984.

Songs of Ecstasy, Gallerie Illuminati, 1990. The Sixth Dimension (soon to be published).

Stephen LaBerge Lucid Dreaming, Tarcher, 1985. Conscious Mind, Sleeping Brain,

New

York, 1988.

Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming (with H.Rheinglold), Ballantine, 1991.

Timothy Leary The Interpersonal Diagnosis of Personality, John Wiley, 1957. The Psychedelic Experience (with R. Metzner and R. Alpert), University Books, 1964. Psychedelic Prayers Irom the Too ie Ching, University Books, 1967. The High Priest, NAL-World, 1968. The Politics of Ecstasy, Ronan, 1990. Jail Notes, World-Evergreen, 1971.

Confessions

The

(

f

a

Hope Fiend (with

J.

Lear)

).

Bantam, 1973.

urse of the Oval Room, Starseed, 1974.

L

W. Benner),

The Intelligence Agents, Peace

Press, 1979.

Terra II (with

J.

Lear) and

Starseed, 1974.

Changing My Mind -Among Others, Prentice-Hall, 1982. Mind Mirror (software), Electronic Arts, 1986.

What Does

WoMan Want?

Falcon Press, 1988.

Info-Psychology (Revision of Exo-Psychology

Neuro-Politics,

),

Falcon Press, 1987.

(Revision of Neuro-Politics,wiih R. A. Wilson and G. Koopman), Falcon

Press, 1988.

Timothy Leary's Greatest

Hits,

Knoware, 1990.

Flashbacks, Tarcher, 1990.

The

Game of Life

(with R.A.Wilson), Falcon Press, 1992.

John C. Lilly Man and Dolphin, Anchor/Doubleday, 1961. The Mind of the Dolphin, Anchor/Doubleday, 1967. Programming and Metaprogramming in the Human Biocomputer, Crown, 1972. The Center of the Cyclone, Crown, 1972. Simulations of God: The Science of Belief Simon & Schuster, 1975. Lilly

On

Dolphins, Anchor/Doubleday, 1975.

The Dyadic Cyclone (with T.Lilly), Simon

& Schuster,

1976.

The Deep Self Simon & Schuster, 1977. Communication Between Man and Dolphin, Crown, 1978. The

Scientist,

Ronin, 1988.

John Lilly, So Far (with F. Jeffrey), Tarcher, 1990. The Dolphin in History (with A. Montagu), University of California David Loye The Healing of a Nation,

Press, Berkeley.

Delta, 1972.

The Leadership Passion: A Psychology of Ideology, Jossey-Bass, 1977. The Knowable Future: A Psychology of Forecasting and Prophecy, Wiley, 1978.

The Sphinx and the Rainbow: Brain, Mind and Future

Terence

Vision, Ediziono Mediteranee, 1987.

McKenna

The Invisible Landscape (with D. McKenna), Seabiiry Press, 1975.

Magic Mushroom Grower's Guide Food of the Gods, Bantum, 1992. Psilocybin: The

(with D.

McKenna), Lux Natura, 1986.

The Archaic Revival, Harper, 1992. Trialogues on the

Edge of the

West, (with

R.Abraham and R.Sheldrake), Bear and

Co., 1992

Rupert Sheldrake

A New Science of Life,

Tarcher, 1982.

The Presence of the Past, Vintage, 1989. The Rebirth of Nature, Bantum, 1991. Trialogues on the Edge of the West (with R.

Abraham and T. McKenna), Bear and

Robert Trivers Social Evolution, Benjamin-Cummings, 1985.

Colin Wilson

The Occult, Random, 1973. Mysteries, Putnam, 1980.

307

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Afterlife.

Doubleday, L987.

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(

l

ordofthe Underworld, Borgo, 1988. The Nature of the Beast, Borgo, 1988.

Aleister Crowley:

The Sex Diary of a Metaphysician, Ronin, 1988. The Desert (Spider World series). Ace Bks, 1988. The Misfits: A Study of Sexual Outsiders, Carroll The Philosopher's Stone, Jeremy Tarcher, 1989.

&

Graf, 1989.

The Fortress (Spider World series), Ace Bks, 1989.

The Tower (Spider World The Delta (Spider World

series), series),

Ace Bks, 1989. Ace Bks, 1990.

The Outsider, Buccaneer Bks, 1990.

A

riminal History of Mankind, Carroll

(

&

Graf, 1990.

Religion and the Rebel, Ashgrove Press, 1990.

Music, Nature and the Romantic Outsider, Borgo, 1990.

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the Outsider, Carroll

the Occult:

& Graf,

1991

A Twenty Year Investigation

into the

Paranormal, Carroll

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99

1

Written in Blood, Warner, 1991.

Ritual in the Dark, Ronin, 1992.

Robert Anton Wilson Cosmic Trigger I: The Final Secret of the Illuminati, Falcon Press, 1 986. Cosmic Trigger II: Down To Earth, Falcon Press, 1991. Quantum Psychology: How Brain Software Programs Yourself and Your World, Falcon Press, 1990.

Prometheus Rising, Falcon

Press, 1983.

New Inquisition, Falcon Press, 1986. Sex and Drugs —A Journey Beyond Limits, The

Falcon Press, 1987.

Coincidance, Falcon, 1988. Ishtar Rising, Falcon Press, 1989.

Wilhelm Reich

in Hell,

Falcon Press, 1987.

The Illuminatus! Trilogy (with R.Shea), Dell, 1975. Schrodinger's Cat Trilogy, Dell, 1980-81.

Mash Reality

of the Illuminati, Dell, 1981.

h

What You Can Get Away

With, Dell, 1992.

Right Where You Are Sitting Now, And/Or, 1983. arth Will Shake, Bluejay Books, 1983.

The Widow'* Son, Bluejay Books, 1985. Nature's God. Penguin Books,

USA,

1991.

The Illuminati Papers, And/Or, 1980. Playboy's Book ofForbidden Words. Playboj Press. 1972.

The Sex Magicians, Playboy

Press. 1973.

Addresses To

To find out more about Oscar Janiger

more about Stephen

find out

LaBerge's work with lucid dreaming write:

entific study of

Lucidity Institute

write:

P.O.

.s

information center dedicated to the sci-

human consciousness

The Albert Hofmann Foundation

Box 2364

Stanford, California 94305

291

S.

La Cienega Blvd. #615

Beverly

Hills,

CA 9021 1-3325

For further information on Terence

McKenna's sanctuary

To

endangered species of ethnobotanically

find out more about John Lilly's work with dolphin communication write:

and ethnomedically valuable plants

Human/Dolphin Foundation

from around

the

Hawaii for

in

11930 Oceanaire Lane CA 90265

world contact:

Botanical Dimensions

Box 807

P.O.

Occidental,

To

Malibu,

CA 95465

David Jay Brown and Rebecca McClen Novick can be reached through: Brainchild Productions

get involved in Riane Eisler and

David Loye's organization

P.O.

to create a

Center for Partnership Studies P.O. Box 51936 Pacific Grove, CA 93950

To receive Robert Anton Wilson 's newsletter

Trajectories order from:

Permanent Press P.O. Box 700305 San Jose,

To

CA 95170 more about Carolyn

find out

Kleefeld's artwork and publications contact:

Atoms Mirror Atoms P.O. Box 221693 Carmel,

CA 93922

Laura Huxley's foundation nurturing of the possible

be reached

for "the

human" can

at:

Our

Ultimate Investment

P.O.

Box 1904

Los Angeles,

Box 1101

Topanga,

partnership society write:

CA 90028

309

CA

90290

About the Authors

David Jay Brown (Falcon Press, 1988).

is

He

the author of the science fiction novel Brainchild

attended eight different universities throughout the

United States and Europe during his formal education, earning his B.A.

psychology from USC, his MA.

in

a year of post-masters training neuroscience. At

in

psychobiology from NYU, and then completed

NYU his research

in

USC's doctoral program in behavioral and negative reinforcement

into the positive

systems of the brain was compiled into a master's thesis entitled "Paradoxically " Motivating Effects of Electrical Brain Stimulation Delivered Via a Single Electrode.

He

has written for such publications as

Mondo

2(XX),

Magical Blend, Critique.

High Times, The International Synergy Journal, The Los Angeles Reader, and The Sun. He co-wrote a chapter in Terence McKenna's book The Archaic Revival (Harper), and some of his photographic work appears in Nina Graboi's autobiography One Foot in the Future (Ariel Press). His research background m the study of learning and memory at USC, and his fascination with experimental psychopharmacology, made him a natural spokesperson on the "smart drug"

phenomena; he appeared on such popular television shows as A Current Aliair am/ The Montel Williams Show. He oriented and worked with isolation tank and brain machine users at the Altered States MindGym in Los Angeles, and therapeutically, he has worked for years with the menially ill in psychiatric hospitals and other treatment centers primarily with the extremes of schizophrenia, suicidalily, manic-depres.\iveness, and multiple personality disorder. He currently lives high on a mountain overlooking Topanga Canyon in Southern California, where he is working on Virus, his new science fiction newel.